Working cow podcast,
episode 374.
This episode is brought to you by,
understanding ag,
Welcome to the podcast that gives producers a
platform to discuss and share paradigm challenging practices.
Practices that have increased the effectiveness of their
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Howdy everybody It's Clay Con host of the
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Financial assistance scholarships are available. Very excited to
be joined today by Luke Jones and Brian
Do, both part of the understanding Ag team,
and we're gonna talk them today
about cover crops. We're gonna talk all things
cover crop?
What's the goal of a cover crop? What
are we trying to do on the landscape
with a cover crop?
What are we... What are some keys to
success ways to set yourself up for success
and ways to think about the different...
Species mixes that we're using in cover crops,
and then we're also...
This is the Working Cows podcast. Right? We're
gonna talk about livestock integration in in into
cover cops as well towards the end. So
really excited to welcome Brian back and and
Luke for the first time. So, Brian, Luke,
Thanks for joining me today on the Working
cow podcast.
You good to be here play. Yeah Thanks
for having us.
Yeah.
Excited to have a conversation about c cover
crops,
fresh off of a soil Health Academy myself,
Luke, you're in Indiana getting ready to teach
1 there.
And, you know, what kinda of clicked for
me things that I got to hear with
my own ears, see with my own eyes.
Is that when we when we start to
institute these cover crops
that really what we're trying to do is
speed up biological
time.
Is that...
Am I remembering that right? Is that 1
of the ways that you guys that understanding
Ag talk about it? And and what do
you mean by that? Yeah. Cover crops definitely
are an integral part and moving the whole
soil health system,
ecosystem processes are regenerating our soils. Cover crops
are... A necessity. They're not the only tool
that we'd look at, but they're definitely in
necessity.
You know, they've been talked about for for
decades now. You know, it's nothing new. But
I think now that we're starting to get
an understanding of what these cover crops actually
bring to the table, you know, back when
I first started understanding and cover crops, it
was
a lot of mono crops whether it's till
radish or just aisle things like that are
just or or leftover wheat,
but I think we've come so much
further from that and no understanding that the
diversity? And why was it the diversity with
Silk key is,
it stimulates the biology, biology in a way
that, you know, each of these different
species, compounds or releasing different exit that are
stimulated into biology.
And if we understand that the system that
we are working with is biologically driven
than what better way to stimulate the priming
through diverse cover crops. And getting them established
in the system any way that we can
to capture that,
all important for ecosystem processes processes of of
the energy cycle. Right? I... 1 of my
favorite things that I... That I talk about
and that excites me about this whole j
back movement and building soil health is.
Anytime, you wake up in the morning, you've
got a great day to to make things
happen. No matter what the system is. Get
a living plan out there, capture that solar
energy cycle. And let the whole chain of
events happen from there.
You know, we are the biggest
inhibitor of life on the operation ourselves and
our management decisions. So
I encourage it. Way that I can get
something out there growing. I don't look at
anything as a weed anymore, if even if
it's an escape or something,
it's there for a reason. It has a
habitable environment it grows. So
a cover crop could be a 4 barrel
a weed as some my call for me
too. But it's there. It's got competition with
with some other cover crops but
getting those cover crops established, to stimulate the
biology, feed that, feed their diet if you
will. Is the... The the initial first step
for us to take forward? No. And I
guess, when I
I get... We're 1 of those kind of
ways that we wanna frame that
conversation too is picking the place to do
a cover crop, and I don't never is
a very strong word.
When when my my wife and I were
getting ready to get married. We had some
people that were investing in our marriage even
before we were married and and 1 of
things that they said is when you're fighting,
you shouldn't use words like always in never.
So never is a strong word. But I
would say that we could probably say, we
should never
cover crop a,
perennial
poly culture that's already existing. Like, we shouldn't
take go plow up grass,
perennial and put in cover crops there. Right?
We should, maybe
use other management tools to try and make
them more diverse, but probably not, you know,
burn them down and and put a cover
crop in there. Would you guys agree with
that?
Yeah. I agree. I'll start to I'll let
Brian Chime. Yeah. It's kind of the, you
know, the actual reverse thinking here on that.
If you wanna try to establish perennial we
would recommend... From a row crop situation or
an terrible situation, row crop land in order
to convert that to perennial, we would rather
go with cover crops to get that established.
But to revert back
you know, for 1, I would want to
understand the context to what somebody is wanting
to do with that piece of land for
taking it out of perennial,
you know, the most
drought resistant long as established, you know, the
the most potentially productive grazing system there is
right there.
We would almost go backwards by reverting it
out. Unless something catastrophic happened we needed to
reset the system. But
Yeah. You know, it's kinda reverse thinking.
There... We got other tools in the toolbox
at play to build diversity and make that
bring system more profitable and productive.
Then going backwards through the use of cover
crops and added expenses in that direction, you
know, I'm happy to let Brian chime in
as well on that.
Yeah. Luke hit all the main points. I
was thinking of as well. It it really
just doesn't make sense to tear up a
perennial, like I said and go back annual
in a grazing system. You can use adaptive
grazing
as your tool you know, to get more
diversity with longer rest periods.
You can use stock density, lots of different
management tools with the grazing side of it
to improve that at stand. And now we
do get a lot of questions from people
who have a perennial stand. They're well, kinda
inter seeds some...
You know, maybe they're lacking the warm seasons
kinda inter seed into that. Perennial stand with
some
you know, warm season annual, for example, things
like sorghum sedan.
And, yes, you can do that, but it
tends to be difficult to get a good
stand that perennial mix is pretty competitive, and
it's it it's just generally
doesn't turn out that well. So
Yep. And I think that, you know, to
your point, Brian,
we've been managing this place that we're on
now for about 5 years 2 of those,
maybe 3 of those were pretty severe drought
years.
And this year, we've had probably best 2
years back to back that we've had since
we've been there this year and last year.
And what we're noticing is in some of
those places because it was all old Hay
field,
very dominated by crest wheat,
pretty spa, you know, a lot of bear
ground.
But what we're noticing in in some of
those places now that we've had good moisture
back to back years where we've had, you
know, a few years of adaptive multi pad
grazing style management.
We're starting to see other things come in.
And
they maybe aren't... You know, they're not the
the
native warm seasons that we'd love to see
eventually,
but they're they're not... It's not only crest
wheat anymore. You know, that latency seed bank
is starting to express itself. Now this year,
what I've been seeing is Alfalfa, and, obviously,
we don't want that dominate the stand either,
but it's better than
it's something,
another plant species out there doing what it
can do to help the soil get back
in shape is better than just that. Basically
mono culture of crest wheat. So I think,
you know, that's at least in my experience,
true that just grazing right? Eventually, those
those hay fields will begin to rebuild... Rehab
themselves. Now can we speed that process up?
You know, maybe, but again, back to Luke's
point, it's context. You know, what is our
context? What are we trying to accomplish?
And then make our decisions
from there. And I think that probably,
at least in my mind, the scale is
you know, if it's a if it's a
mono culture of an introduced species like Crest
Wheat grass,
maybe maybe that helps us, tip the scales
a little bit more in favor of entertaining
the idea of a cover crop,
but it's still gonna be a multi year
process to get back to a perennial poly
culture if we're gonna... If we're not going
to cover crops. Is that is that true
in your experience?
Yeah. Clint to that, you know, like you're
saying, you you you had some drought periods
there. You know, we can do everything right,
you know. But if doesn't rain,
you know, the decks against us. You know,
we can only do so many things
that compensate for lack of moisture. But we
as humans, our our first inclination is to
go in there and
we gotta... We gotta do to fix this.
We're gonna spend... Work gonna through all their
cards on the table. Through the money after
and cover crop seeds. Both, if you're not
getting enough moisture to get your forage to
produce anyway, why do we think even though
it's a, you know, a better,
maybe a potentially better cover crop it'll will
utilize moisture a little bit more efficiently. Because
but it still takes moisture for those,
you know, added seeds in that system to
to grow and do their job. So the
steps that it would take for us to
get those established
whether
herbicide, till, or drilling, cops of seed, everything
that we've... That we've taken there to do
that. Maybe the best plan of attack would
have been to des stock or or you
know, fore go that ground bit just to
let it actually do its job. Because as
you said,
now that you've got a little moisture how
much better that ground has has responded to
that, proper management. So
I'm not gonna cast stones to anybody that
feels like they need to try to improve
their system at all, but I think there's
better things that we can do
rest, you know, rest in just deferring that
ground a little bit in those types of
situations versus
trying to maximize every little ounce out of
it when
It's really exhausting it if you will. When
we talk about speeding up biological time, what
is the what is that journey like? What
are we... Where are we starting and where
are we ending? What is the target we're
shooting at when we're trying to
speed up that biological time?
Oh, that's a good question. I think it's
I think it's pretty variable.
Every environment, and, every climate is gonna respond
differently. The the level of intent that you
have as far as being dedicated to getting
diverse living roots in that system. They're all
gonna respond differently. So At the the wonderful
thing about the regenerative standpoint here is that
there's no recipe. There's no formula. The only
formula that I believe in is 634
is it
that's what understanding that goes... That's our platform
that we stand on. That's the only formula
that that's it's all inclusive that goes across
every acre. And
how that fits into your context, that number
1 principle.
That's where we gotta go with this. But
as far as
timing, typically, the 3 to 5 year periods,
what we like see things start to crank
and turn around.
You know, a lot of people say they
wanna focus more on their degree they got
land. Well, that's great that you you can.
I would probably watch my my cost of
seed on on those acres,
because you're probably gonna get a slower turnaround
on those whereas I if I'm gonna start
to
increase biological activity, I'd probably even look at
some of my board productive ground and better
pad my better
utilization of of money invested there.
To really see some return on that. But
that degraded source still the... It still needs
something, some roots in there to get that
to to start to come to life if
you will and get some oxygen breed into
that school.
Yeah. That's that's a good question. Like Luke
said, it's a tough question to answer because
it comes us back to the context you
know, if your goal, you know, we always
come back which somebody wants to plan to
cover crop? The first question is what is
your goal? What are you trying to do?
You So if your goal is to speed
up biological time. There's
some different
indicators, I guess, you could say that you
can use to assess... That our favorite obviously
is soil aggregation. So just get out there
with the shovel
and see, do you have any aggregation and
how deep is it that So that's your
number 1, you know, visual assessment you can
do right there. Just how well aggregated is
it your goal really should be to have
a well aggregated soil. If you've got that,
a lot of things are just gonna start
to work.
And then if you really wanna get in
and look at the biology, you know, there's
testing we can do can run out the
phospholipid fatty acid or P test
and look at the micro fungi, that'd be
the big 1 there in Pro.
If you have those or
don't pad them and what are your levels.
So those those could give you some more
concrete
goals to shoot for if if you wanted
to have a specific target.
Yep. And I think that when we're talking
about biological time, we're talking about the
we're talking about the biological
community that's present in the soil. Right? That's
what you're talking about there a little bit,
the the micro fungi and the Pro z,
But in systems that are less healthy,
as I understand it, more often than not,
they are dominated by a bacterial community,
and in systems that are more more healthy?
Again, as I understand it, they're are dominated
by a fungal community. Is that accurate
that's still a ruin rule thumb anyway that
they say, but I think that
especially here we're we're Brian and I, you
know, primarily out in the row crop world.
If we get everything to drive heavily fungal,
or we're gonna revert back to
timbers or and things like that, we're brush
species, and we gotta find that balance. So
I think our job here in the Midwest
and on the row crop systems more importantly
is to define that balance of of fungal
and bacteria ratio. It still takes bacteria. So
know, you hear a lot of people say
they want a 1 to 1 ratio. Well,
that's that's good, and it sounds good on
paper. But to me, I just want as
much back and as much fungi giant and
much pros, I wanna all and let them
bounce them out, you know, ray
like we said, Mick was letter, from mother
interested intercept appealing separated and say safe, we're
organizing. If we allow, So we gotta work
within that.
But, yeah. It's
that is the true statement that that they
always say the more healthy the more fungal.
But,
you know,
back to your question on that, that biological
priming though,
I wanted to re address. So just for
for an example myself. So
some of the timbers soul I farm for
row crop is very degraded. Very thin, very
very white if you will. We call it
white white sugar oil.
Build some fence on a couple years ago
with the antenna of creating livestock back on
the ground. And this ground is... That was
very conventionally formed.
Up until I started taking it over here
a couple years ago.
I seeded a cool season mix on it.
And this farm has not seen livestock in
over 70 years. This is my grandparents farm.
So I built fence on I put cattle
out there. I got the video of the
cattle went out there for the first time
in over 7 7 decades.
Very bacterial dominant soil, very degraded lack of
diversity other than weeds forbes, if you will.
But within that first seat does, round of
grazing, we had dumb beetles coming in. And
if you dug up that soil just looking
at aggregation in the rise she saw those
roots,
So I don't know how that happened,
but it did. You know, so it's just
1 of the things timing wise, it can
happen within that first year.
There's something about
good systems or... I don't know if there's
some kind of
radar shooting up out of the ground so
says come here. There's life here, but it
can happen very fast.
What we do know about Dung beetles is
they have wings. Right? That's right. They'll find
it. They will find it. If you build
it, they will.
But it's just crazy that even within just...
I'm talking a 7 acre piece and,
you know, AAZ on an elephant butt, in
our in our landscape, and they found.
Yep.
Same same here. It was, you know, first
week of turning turning livestock out in our
neighborhood.
You know, and that was the first thing.
Not the first thing. But 1 of the
first things we ask people who are gonna
send us custom grazing, livestock is
could you
refrain from any
applications of of dew or pesticides
in the, you know, at least 3 months
before they come to us? If if they've
never had it, that's even better. But, you
know, And
we've... I've never
failed to be able to find dung beetles
in a mini pat. You know, in the
years that we've we've had livestock coming. So...
And it was like very quick. Yeah. I
mean to prime that biology in the soil.
There's no better way. You know, I think
all all of the stuff that we're applying.
A lot of the things we're doing. We're
just trying to mimic what the room it's
did for the landscapes.
Through their saliva, the, their Dan.
You name it. No bug in a jug
that you can buy,
we'll mimic what the rum roommates will do.
So you wanna talk about ex expedition that
biological process or the the inventory there,
get room minutes it's on the ground. That's
that's that's critical. Because we're really just trying
to mimic what they did.
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.
Brian had something add there
Yeah. I I'm was just gonna say we
do tend to have very bacterial dominated
soils in our cropping systems and kinda have
step back, understand why that's happening. If you
think about natural succession,
you know, say,
hurricane tornado or whatever something comes through and
just wipes the slate clean. You're gonna start
with a very bacterial dominated and then over
time, it's gonna become more and more fungal.
Eventually end up with the climax
ecosystem with lots of trees and
that sort of thing. But, in an annual
cropping system,
we basically kinda get to the point where
we're starting to see, like the angle weeds,
you know, getting a little bit more funnel,
but then every year, we hit the reset
button.
You know, if you go in with till,
if you're using herbicides, fungi sides, especially
bacteria.
They're they're tough little bugger. They I can
withstand just about anything. We always have bacteria,
but the fungi
are much more sensitive to those disturbances. So
In these annual systems, we just keep hitting
the reset button every year and kinda driving
that
ratio back towards fungal dominance. So a lot
of what we work on with Producers, is
just figuring on how do we minimize some
of that disruption. That's 1 of our big
soil health principles.
And the reason that works it's because it
allows that soil to heal and allows us
to your your fungal populations, especially a micro
fungi guy to reorganize that soil. Certainly.
1 of the things that you mentioned in
this process of, you know, just assessing where
you're at.
Is, you know, get out there and and
examine the aggregation and and now it's been
all of 5 days, I think since I
left the Soil Health academy. But if I
remember right, the 4 tools that we should
be using to examine soil, health is the
shovel, the thermometer, the grazing stick and the
ref ref thermometer. I'm not sure about the
grazing stick it might be something else. But
though... I know I'm pretty confident on the
on the on those 3, for sure, the
shovel, the thermometer and the ref ref thermometer
is that...
I'm right about that. Is it what... Was
the fourth 1 the grazing stick? Is there...
Is... Or is it a different 1 that
I forgot?
We recommend, like an infiltration, it's some infiltration
test. That's it. The infiltration ring? Okay. So...
But we're examining
the the aggregation with, you know, really,
we're examining the
aggregation for sure with the shovel and the
infiltration ring, Right? That... Those things kinda tell
you about how fast you can get water
into the soil and how much water it
can hold.
You know, and then they just talk a
little bit about, you know, using these tools
and and examining where we're at and kinda
how that can help us, inform some of
what we're trying to do with the... With
the cover crops.
Yeah. Be bet. So like I guess I
can start off, Brian, you can follow up.
But simple thing that you do is you
know, get the spade. Yeah. If if anybody
you're working with doesn't show up your farm
without with a spade fire. They're not worth
your you're working not worth your time, they're
there to sell you something. So
somebody shows up with the spade, at least
I have some kind of
inclination of what's going on or read the
soar or list they're willing to put a
little work in. So dig that fade up,
how easy does this fade you to the
ground. Right? Check it against your cropping fields,
check it against your rows, find those un
underserved areas. So you can least feel for
yourself and and keep those in your mind
when you're when you're doing it, and digging
around? And when you dig up those soils,
how do they look? How do they how
do they apply up out of the soil?
Or is it har? Is it is it
is it does it Does it rip and
tear do you hear rich rip and tear.
And those are those are sounds and things
that you can listen for a user senses
why you're doing all these things. Side sounds
smells, you name it.
As you dig get best that that's paid
of soil. I like to off the sheer
side, I'd like to just break it down
the middle and really get an observation of
what that soil looks like without being,
cup through with the spade, but then we
look for the aggregation, as Brian has talked
about here. And it's that... Do we have
that,
chocolate cake. Some say, cottage cheese. I'd I
prefer chocolate cake, over cottage cheese by a
long way. So doesn't it look like a
chocolate cake, that por, the the crumbly granular
kinda of kinda structure, How deep is that?
Can you see that layer of carbon that
we're pumping into that system? Do you see
that moving deeper? And take these samples and
compare them to each other? From the row
crop and they disturb there minimize a serve
area.
Look for that. You know, what's the what's
the temperature feel like? Use your thermometer, look
at the surface temperature get the get the
probe from that thermometer and check this this
4 inch temperature. See what the differences are
there.
I was out in Kansas a couple years
ago,
and seeing a guy doing some till work
after wheat harvest. And I I couldn't help,
but not go in there and and see
what was what the status was. The gentleman
was far end of the field so Knew
it wasn't gonna guarantee catch me. The slow
of the pace he was going till that
field, but I slipped that in the field
in the soil temperature far
was a hundred and 41
degrees. Of soil. So I went out on
the oil chip black top road that I
drove in on is a hundred and 29.
Okay. So our soils are harder than asphalt,
and that that shouldn't That shouldn't make sense,
But it's just... Those observations like that. We
need to be making. So we're definitely lacking
armor.
Lacking
aggregation to the help gonna stay in the
that soil.
Those are the things that we'd like to
look for with the state. And then the
the infiltration test,
get you a water bottle,
444 milliliters is equivalent of an inch of
rainfall. So get your a water bottle dump
out about where the neck taper is down.
It's close enough. And then time it.
If you're sitting in there past 10 minutes
kick it out, move on. Know you got
better things to do. You can sit there
and watch if you wanna relieve it and
come back and check it.
But I got to million irons in the
fire. So if it's 10 minutes, I'm kicking
it out and moving on. But observe how
fast that water's is trading,
observe the the the conditions that when you
did that. Was it rainy before? You know,
it's gonna be reduced infiltration prior to that.
If we had brain prior to doing that
test,
the things like that.
And then the ref ref, you know, as
we improve aggregation as we pump more carbon
in the system, build more soil health. Those
bricks levels will start to increase as well.
And, Brian you can chime in,
whatever else you'd like to on that as
well.
Yeah. I was just gonna say on the
infiltration, obviously incredibly important. So that's really gonna
give us a good indication of do we
have those reports in the soil because about
70 percent of your infiltration rate. It's actually
that, like the big Mac cores that are
made by, say, earth channel or older channels
or something like that. So again, if you've
got too much disturbance, you're not gonna have
that, It's gonna shut down your infiltration rate.
So I like to see it under 5,
you know, even even a minute or 2
for that first engine a really healthy soil
is is entirely achievable.
The other 1 I like to do out
in the field is just looking at how
stable are those aggregates.
So super easy test, just get yourself yourself
a little scoop of water,
take a little pen of soil and drop
it in there and Just let it sit
for about 30 seconds and see if it
falls apart.
And then give it a quick sore oil
for maybe 5 seconds again, see if it
falls apart. If you have the biological
glues
that you need for stable aggregation,
that little pad soil should hold together and
that water should stay clear. Another super simple
easy test you can do in the field.
If you really wanna know how are you
doing on aggregation? Not only does how... How
does it look, but how stable are those
aggregates because
They're constantly being formed and broken down in
the soil by the biology.
So the the numbers that I've heard somewhere
on 4 weeks
is about how long an aggregate actually last.
So if you think about that, if you
go longer than 4 weeks without a living
root
you're gonna start losing aggregation. And you're gonna
start losing those biological glues that that hold
those aggregates together.
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dot
understanding ag
dot com. I think it would probably be
fair to say that
on the mean or in, you know, in
the mean,
on average,
many of our, especially row crop acres, but
all really, many of our agricultural acres in
general
in America are going to to tend to
be
bacterial dominated and not well aggregated.
And so
we could just say,
here's
something something to consider. We're not giving you
a a recipe. 6 to 3 and the
4. You know, those are principles. They apply
everywhere. They work everywhere they're tried.
So... But 6 what are we gonna do?
If we... If we do come to
a field, and it's not well aggregated,
and it is,
you know, not not a healthy soil.
How are we going? What's our what's our
strategy going to be,
on those acres with that cover crop.
And
we'll just start in the spring of the
year, Say we're starting with our early
or maybe even... Yeah. We'll just start in
the spring of the year. What are we
gonna do
for the spring of the year to try
try and start moving that field in the
right direction?
Yeah. Start off with the spring that you're...
As far as cover crops, your options are
are pretty limited there. I mean, maybe if
you're early enough some notes and p's potentially?
Ahead of corn.
I know there are some spring seated.
You know, it's spring cereals, winter cereals,
you know, trade kale,
things like that. They could be done ahead
of beans.
In the springtime time, though, it's really...
It gets tough, trying to get something established
there. I'd probably more so look at. What
am Doing? Otherwise physical disturbances that I can
reduce to start moving that needle to possibly
get the ball rolling and better for a
fall seeding or or late summer seeding.
It depends on what the crop is gonna
be there, You know, it's the whole it
depends button.
There's a lot of variables there
but definitely, it's if it's going to to
corn,
can I know till? It's it's a ground
and good enough situation where I can note
till. If it's been fall plowed, obviously, you
know, you've set the stage in the fall
if you... If you hit that first
river pass. Well, you're gonna have to strike
off and level loss. So, you what are
we doing now to build aggregates? You know,
we obviously probably have reduced soil armor.
So the the needle moved against is pretty
hard here. So in the spring, it gets
a little tough.
Does it have to be corner soybeans? You
know, is this an opportunity to get a
diverse oak crop in the system. If there's
a market there.
This all comes down to what the individual
is willing to do in their economic context,
what's sort market context, You know, this this
all weighs on on men and we can
we can work through these situations with each
producer.
You know, has there been followed applied fertility
that's potentially set our
aggregation potential building back. And most of the
time, that's the case in the in the
row crop world,
lot of follow applied fertility, and we're seeing
that, you know, in in masses.
So really, starting to reduce my till passes.
What am I doing for my herbicide programs.
You know, most of times we do a
blanket application of herbicide. You know, I used
to work and at retail and pretty much
it was a figure out a prescription. It
was on every acre. There's corn soybeans. That's
that's what you're gonna get your corn program
Here's a your soybean program.
Regardless of what your weed pressures are. This
is what we're gonna run because it nukes
everything, and and we don't have to worry
about weed x y and z. So can
we reduce those? Do we really have that
bad weed pressure that we're applying excess amounts
of of herbicides out there?
Then it comes time in in in the
season here, where we're talking about fungi side
and insecticides. Do we really need that fungi
decide. If we're planned early,
potentially, you probably are gonna need, But there's
a reason for that. Right? So if we
wait a little later for that soil to
warm up, can we potentially pull away from
some of that fungi side?
I believe so. Yep.
That's probably 1 of the first things that
myself, I feel confident in pulling away from
is it's some of this,
Seed treatment, especially on soybeans.
They're very resilient. The populations we plant them
at. I've I've had no issues,
pulling away my,
ct there. So then you think about the
rule of compounding, what does that do for
us? Well,
potential not... Knocking out some insect populations, we
always here, doc Jonathan in Lu safe for
everyone past your sending had other beneficial.
Well, people have out all the slugs, things
like that. Well, if you buy that treat
that neon nick on that, that soybean Well,
the slugs are gonna drag that across and
start to tear out a lot of your
ground beetles, which is the actual predator for
some of these other issues that we've got
in there. So it's just a rule of
compounding there. The more we can start to
pull away from some of those at their
if they're if they're able to and if
they're willing and can potentially you know if
they economically can afford it, It all depends
on their goals and their visions. What do
they wanna... What do they wanna achieve here.
As we move into the fall gets a
lot easier though. As far as determining how
you can start to
improve that soil. Sometimes in the spring year,
you just almost have to deal with that
in a row crop world. But in the
sprint in the fall,
maybe in that springtime time, like you said,
maybe I thought, well if I wanna get
something established here this fall. This gives me
the opportunity to up my mat maturity up,
so I can get in there at a
timely manner and get something established and have
a better success rate. A lot of people
are chasing Yield deal deal, which I get
a yield as part of the equation.
But we're still seeing,
very economical yields even by bumping some of
these mat
understanding your different application methods of getting some
of these cover crops established or or critical.
There's aerial drone work now, inter seating. If
you're if you're in a more northern climate,
there's all those tools in 2 a toolbox
to work. But, you know, you gotta be...
Sometimes you gotta shoot from the head. And,
you know, if there's weather coming and looks
favorable to get some stuff established to it.
You know, take the opportunity. But don't make
sure you understand what species you're trying to
establish as well. But starting out, I wanna
get a lot grass species in there, get
some get some fiber truths in there to
start breaking up that compact layer those plated
soils and let those grow.
Following that into the next year, you need
to watch the weather,
Truths you know, had times worth spinning about,
I probably should terminated that cover crop a
little sooner,
by not observing the weather properly.
So those are things you gotta watch. It's
not an easy game. It's a thinking main
game.
So you gotta play the variables watch out
for and really understand what you want that
cover crop to do for you. And then
manage accordingly.
Yeah. That's exactly what I was getting at
with that question is kind of the different
routes
you know, root systems and what they're doing
in those soils to really kinda Yeah. Move
the needle in the direction that you wanna
go. And also,
that's what I'm hoping to do here for
a little bit here on this episode is
just to to take a journey through the
year. Like, what are we doing and and
we've... We've... Talked about the springs kinda hard.
We really need to be starting before that,
but we gotta start somewhere in the year.
So we've got Corn crop in.
Corn crops harvested. Now we're thinking about planting
something to follow that. And I think that's
maybe a a missing link in a lot
of cases,
is we've taken the cash grain crop off.
And now it's okay. Corn soybeans, Florida, that's
our crop rotation, you know, rather than
actually trying to do
something that's gonna keep a living root in
the soil,
reduce our need for chemical and mechanical disturbances
going forward,
some of those things. So, Brian, anything to
add there or anything else that you would
wanna us talk about before we'd talk about
what to follow the the corner beans with
and and where to go from there?
Yeah. I think Loop wrapped it up pretty
good there. But, yeah, Spring is definitely when
you need to be planning and thinking about
Fall. If you're gonna be serious and it
could be intentional about cover crop and you
gotta be thinking ahead. Like you said, it's
a thinking man's game and don't wait until
you know, October, order your cover crop seat
if you're planning to plan to cover crop
in October, You know, you need to be
planning this stuff up months in advance. It's
a system.
You know, you need to be given just
as much stock to that cover crop as
you are to your cash crops if you're
gonna be successful with them. So where do
we go from cover crop or from from
cash crop Harvest.
We've got that... We've got that...
Cover crop seed. As Brian just said, we've
got it already there. Ready to go. We've
had it... We've been had this plan in
place.
What are some of the things that help
frame in our our thinking there and the
the strategy?
Yeah. Linda that?
Decision is gonna come back to, you know,
what do you got for equipment? What do
you have for time and manpower? So are
you gonna drill that after harvest? Are you
gonna try to broadcast it and work it
in?
Are you gonna try to fly it on
before harvest.
Any of those can work work potentially, you
know, drilling
almost always is gonna get you the best
stand, but it is gonna go in later,
so gonna limit the species that you have
to choose from. So you really gotta think
about the calendar where you're gonna be at
when you see, and that's gonna inform that's
which species are gonna work for you and,
you know, how you're gonna manage that? Talk
to me a little bit about kinda the
the diversity of these cover crops and some
of the things that you're thinking about there
as far as strategy goes?
Yeah. As far as diversity, we'd like to
see
And we have, like, the rule of 3,
you know, 3 grasses,
3 legumes, 3 forbes. You know, that's a
that's a 9 way mix right there, which
is way more diverse than what most people
are gonna plan. So obviously, if you're gonna
do that, you need to be probably... That's
you know, if you're in the upper Midwest
here sometime in August or September to to
be successful with that. But
generally, the more diversity you can get out
there.
The better that cover crop can work. So
the grasses are great for breaking up surface
compact. They put out a lot of root
mass.
Great for protecting from erosion, so they definitely
have a benefit. But if we really wanna
drive aggregation deep,
we have to have that
diversity and the those crops out when that
synergistic effect happening underground. We need some forbes
in that mix. Some broad leaves.
To put down deep tap roots and work,
you know, synergistic with those grasses,
if we really wanna make some longer term
gains in soil health. So diversity is just
such a a critical piece that
I think is is kinda overlooked or not
not given
enough emphasis and are especially in our corn
bean systems where we just were lacking any
diversity
in the crash crop part of it. And,
again, diversity
comes up in all 3 of the 6
the 3 and the 4. Right? And so
we need to...
We can't really...
Hammer that point hard enough that it is,
in the integral part of this. And and
when you go out into those
perennial poly cultures in a, in a range
setting.
That's what you're gonna see is diversity, you
know, and in healthy ones. Right? In in
less healthy ones less diversity, but you're gonna
find diversity in those, and that's really what
we're doing with these cover crops is trying
to mimic nature, trying to
get those things out there, get the diversity
out there that
attracts the diversity of soil biology
and all of those things. So I think
that's an important piece to to not overlook
for sure. But, is just to say each
plant has a a slightly different microbiome that's
associated with it. They're they're all feeding different
critters in the soil. And if we if
we wanna get at nutrient cycling,
which is usually 1 of the goals in
our crop systems. So we want that cover
crop to do something for us. You know
we wanted to make nutrients available. We wanted
to fix some nitrogen.
And if you don't have diversity out there,
that is just not gonna happen. You gotta
have...
Multiple species out there that are gonna get
your pho sol
bacteria. You're
free living nitrogen mixer, all of those things,
you know, that we need the aggregation, but
we also need the diverse route system to
go with that.
If you wanna have good nutrient cycling,
I would even echo that Brian. Even started
out. You know, we used to, you know,
tread lightly. And we we try to work
within the the clients context as far as
what their comp the level is I'm working
with these cover crops, but
I think they're gonna be much happier even
if they just go with 3
3 cereals to start up, but instead of
just ride, plant 3 serious. At least get
something out of there with the brass, you
know, something. And then then if you get
comfortable there, you can start to add in
more. But for me, I'm I'm going crazy
enough that I want as much flowering species
too. So I'm I'm looking at flower shops.
Anything I can throw with for my summer
mixes is which we'll touch on that, vi.
Anything gets something flower out there. I don't
care. I I just want something that's gonna
increase diversity.
For my insects as well because for me
to have this whole system cycling and function
properly, I need to... I the predators above
ground as well.
But that's why I'm looking at.
You know, and they've they've got species,
like annual Rye grass, not cereal rye, but
the the the really small seated annual Rye
grass very... Very good cover crop, but the
management level is not something
to shy away from on that. So it's
not for any early beginner. A I would
say start with your small grains to start
off with for theirs... For sure. But it's
it's got a lot of great compounds to
it, breaking up hard pans and and
you know, it it's just got an incredible
root growth, but that's that's where I would
not start with something like that in the
mix.
Yes. As as far as cover crops throughout
the year. You know, kinda getting getting things
harvested off in the fall, planting this cover
crop
for
you know, for the,
through the winter.
What are we what are we thinking about?
Come come the spring, kinda bringing that full
circle that conversation full circle? What are we
thinking about for the spring and and some
of the strategy there. Yeah. So for the
spring, you better understand what what tools you
have at hand to manage that cover crop
prior to planning the cash crop, you know,
whether you're gonna plan on herbicide, whether you're,
you know, organically after we're relate to till
to make that happen is it a roller
crimp,
mowing grazing what what options are you gonna
use to manage that cover crop.
You need to be thinking that ahead of
time. And you need to have some backup
plans if something goes wrong. If it gets
wet or if it gets dry, need to
have some multiple strategies laid out for for
that,
We've seen that a lot here this year.
Guys were probably pretty quick to pull the
trigger on everything, killing cover crops off, and
then we hit a little west spell there,
and Think that it kinda sets some folks
back in the cover crop world,
because that ground just didn't dry out very
fast. But if we had a living roof
there, we're able to kinda help regulate that
moisture in the soil. So,
I guess my point there is don't treat
every acre the same. If you are gonna
terminate some terminate? Yeah. Maybe maybe terminate some
of your dry ground. But if you got
some lower wet lower wet laying ground, maybe
give it a chance to to stay there
and do the job for you.
So make sure you know what tools you
have,
work with somebody understand what what access they
have to tools as well. Don't just go
buy equipment,
just to think you're gonna do it and
jump in,
work with it before you buy and make
the investment on that.
But also, if you want some some accumulation
to build some real biomass,
myself this year, I had almost 5 ton
biomass that I know till corn to. I
was patient, which I had to be patient
because I was overseas and my wife was...
Soon to be delivering child than before, So
I had nothing no other choice but to
sit on my hands. And
I'm glad I did. It was definitely a...
I'll never say failure. It's... It was a
learning year for sure. Every years a learning
year because I want those to help me
be a better manager of those cover crops.
So some might say that I failed
but I learned something too. You know? So
that... That's how I look at it. Don't
be don't be afraid of that. I think,
especially in the Row crop world, everybody hates
to have something potentially look bad. I mean,
it is such an aesthetic game.
You wanna see this lush green just pretty
no, you know, no. We've clean mode roadside.
That's that's the... That's a picture picturesque row
crop world.
I think we need to get away from
that. That's just so boring. May, I mean,
I've seen more things happen to the positive
as far as biodiversity by delay moe until
after August first. And that's just so I
can get some stuff knocked back to make
Harvest a little leisure. We've gotta change the
attitude there as far as what pretty is.
And a lot of people think that corn
look just phenomenal coming out of the ground.
Some of mine look pretty spin pretty tough
coming through some of that cover crop. But
right now,
other than being a couple leaf stages behind
and ta.
Color looks just as good if anybody else's
with only 70 pounds of nitrogen are applied
on. So
it all depends on what somebody's willing to
to take a gamble on and and play
with,
but you need to understand that if you
wanna manage is if you wanna cover terminate
that cover crop sooner,
probably have to do it with a with
a herbicide or so than likely. That hurts
that cover crop is gonna break down
sooner due its lower seat end ratio.
For me, I I like to see that
cover crop in that 20 to 24 to
1 seat in ratio of a good balance
mix. Because that's gonna be my slow release
fertility throughout the growing season, and that's what
I want. Plus it's gonna build the armor
on the soil. Not only to help maintain
moisture but to protect that soil from erosion,
but they'll build a habitat for the biodiversity
that I want to come in there, and
it just, you know, starts to compound from
there protect from the sunlight,
all the good things like that. So that's
that's my approach on that.
That's a carbon to nitrogen ratio, the c
to n ratio. Seated. Right. That's correct. And
your preference just happens to be the ideal
for biology. Right? 24 to 1.
Yeah. I'm not that smart. I go by
the charts.
We talk a lot about carbon to nitrogen
generation, and that's something really important for people
to understand where that's at.
So if you're gonna grow corn, for example,
and you've got a grasp. Cover crop ahead
of that. So you've got a grass going
into a grass.
To be on the safe side, you're probably
gonna wanna terminate that a little bit sooner
and have a little bit lower
cover ratio there on the carpenter nitrogen or
change your nitrogen management so that you've got
enough nitrogen or early season to break that
cover crop down whereas say going to soybeans.
A little bit safer bet to let that,
go ahead and grow. You know, you can
get up 35, 40 to 1 carbon and
nitrogen on that,
And that can actually be a good strategy.
So again, what's your goal? Do you want
surface armor, If you terminated it earlier, you're
not gonna have surface armor, it's gonna melt
way pretty fast whereas
if you're gonna maybe you're gonna
plant soybeans green and rye
and let it go and roll it down
later, you know, that that's a great strategy
for build an armor, and especially for weed
control,
seen some pretty fantastic results holding back water
hemp and palmer and things like that,
eliminate the spray pass with that kind of
a strategy. So you just gotta ask yourself
what is that you're trying to accomplish in
the spring with that cover crop,
I've heard,
I'm I'm row crop illiterate, So, just throw
that out there. But I... I've heard that
it's, like, 1,
pound of nitrogen per bush of yield. Is
that kinda average? Right? Per corn 1 to
1.2 is what pretty much... Standard people are
doing, but there's some folks moving that need
a lower. Yeah. Right. But, I mean, you
said 70 pounds, so I'm assuming you're planning
to yield more than 70 pounds through the
acres. Is that right?
Yeah. I'll have the.
I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's all
sure. That just think about the reduced need
for nitrogen.
When you've got that carpet on the ground
already and that nitrogen, you've got, you know,
like it said, the free living organisms that
can fix nitrogen for you and some of
the other things going there. I don't I
don't know all of what's going on there,
but, some of those things are helping and
always good to be able to reduce that
that cost for 1.
And then also, I've heard again, things that
I've heard secondhand, things I haven't experienced myself
necessarily. But when you do apply nitrogen a
lot of times you end up shooting yourself.
The foot because the biology eats the carbon
and then you're left with no ground cover.
Is that kinda
go into some what you're thinking there? The
Yeah. It all works together, You know, it's...
The system is not. It's not easy.
If you step back without with your hands
involved with it, it sounds fairly simple.
Plant Seed, harvest seed, you know, or... But
there's a lot that goes in between here
and there.
Your management level definitely increases with with cover
crops as Brian. He he pointed out a
lot of great
things like you know, water hand palmer palmer
hammer and reduction with the rye. But you
still have to be... You still have to
understand the system that you're in. What's the
what are the climate conditions? Because just as
good as it can be it can be
equally bad.
I've seen some train reps where guys didn't
terminate early or they let it go too
long, and then they they didn't use the
proper equipment to get the, you know, get
this stuff established, and I've seen it go
backwards. But I'm tired of people saying the
cover crop did this or the cover crop
failed me. No. Better yet you failed your
cover crop. You didn't understand how to properly
manage that. So I I just wanna...
Full stop that right there. I mean, that's,
I get frustrated seeing that, because everybody's trying
to put down cover crops for the negative.
But really,
as Gabe says, if you don't like what
you see, go home, look yourself, look at
the mirror and the answer is right there.
Looking back at it. Simply put... I mean,
I couldn't agree more.
I guess, go back to... What was your
question again on that? I got sidetracked track
there. I'm sorry.
No. That's alright. And I was just talking
about...
Kinda the fact that we were managing this
carbon nitrogen ratio and sometimes nitrogen. Yeah. Exacerbate
the problem,
Yes. On the lack of carbon on the
on the soil surface.
Yeah. And
I'll I'll quote Brian doh here since he's
on the call whether... It's kind of the...
If you... You apply more you need more.
You know, he said that a lot in
some presentations I couldn't agree more.
With that. We're get in this system where
we think we're gonna solve this. We gotta
have it looking pretty. We gotta apply this,
but now we need to apply more. Well,
we've we've loaded this plant with extra nitrates.
When now it's gonna be probably more susceptible
disease. So now we're gonna need more fungi
side by,
you know, this is just... The whole hamster
wheel just keeps spinning in our in our
row crop world, and it's it's frustrating to
see,
I've spent many years
playing in it,
keeping it going along as it is today,
but you hit a wall at some point
and think that this game is is not
a...
You're not going to the poker table to
win. I'll, guarantee that is. So that the
guy being on the car The guy taking
the money is you pretty doing this casino.
They're the ones making the money.
So it gets frustrating the see. It's I
hate seeing
the current mental state in agriculture right now.
You know, we're seeing core prices drop below
4 dollars,
pretty soon. They're not there yet, but if
Some sort of local deliveries below for,
that's making some guys that have already put
the money in the on the poker table
starting last fall for 5 to almost 7
dollar core at some points.
To really gamble harvest pressures push against us
now. So how can we work more with
this biologically,
get that cover crop out there. Yeah. It
cost money, but it can also make you
money if you manage it properly,
reducing those
those inputs, utilizing them what that plan is
taken up and understanding that we... We're probably...
Not being very good stewards of the nutrients
that we are buying. It's not just, you
know, we've talked about before It's not just
switching to no sales. It's not just planning
cover costs It's not just the 4 or
trans program. It's all them combined. That's gonna
make this system work.
So we can't cherry pick and expect. It's
everything to work perfectly. It's not going.
Mother nature
does not ever work like we expect to.
She's always bat last. She's bat a thousand.
She's never lost a game in alive.
But how well we work within her context
as much as possible. We'll set us up
for the best potential.
Success. So, you know, I'm, you know, ahead
of my corn crop. I'm definitely bouncing out
that seed in ratio.
I'm applying a little bit of nitrogen planning
time. And if it looks like I've got
enough accumulated to doing that cover crop through
some biomass testing, shipping those off, pulling some
hades to go along with that in P
phase, then I can start to play the
game of how much can I cut back
here? How low can I go? And
you know, it's as of right now,
70 pounds with what I've got I'm wanna
cover crop is is gonna take me through
the harvest. Well and Find yourself on that
hamster wheel of just adding a little bit
more. All the time, I think money buttons
would say that makes you a more on.
You just gotta go out there and put
a little more on. And Yeah.
And so all
if we haven't offended everybody, we'll we'll turn
to talking about cows here after, let Brian
say what he had to say.
I was just gonna say, 1 tool we
haven't touched on yet is biomass sampling. So
it's nice to know what you have out
there. A lot of people don't wanna mess
with it, But
right before you terminate that cover crop, just
go out, measure out an area. So, you
know, how much you're collecting and
cut it off at the ground and send
it in, vlad. Just have a biomass analysis
done. How many pounds you'd you'd be amazed
sometimes and how many pounds of nitrogen and
pho and potassium and micron nutrients said that
are actually pulled up
by that cover crop. To me,
that's your fertilizer truck. So do you wanna
pay the c to come out and spread
that hundred and 50 pounds of pot ash
when you got 400 pounds of it
stand there in your cover crop. I mean,
that's your surface fertility application as that breaks
down. So
It's just a different mindset.
And if you don't run that test, you're
never gonna know what you have out there.
Now, are you gonna get all those nutrients
back right away that first year no. You
might not get any of that nitrogen depending
on, again, how high your carbon to nitrogen
ratio?
What's the temperature? How much moisture do to
have. All these things play a role. So
it's it's difficult to predict
exactly what you're gonna get when, but it's
a very important piece of the puzzle, and
it's it's or if you at least do
it once if you've never taken a biomass
sample just to see what that cover crops
doing. So, yeah, this is the working cow
podcast. After all, I'd like to turn to
talking about livestock integration a little bit, grazing
cover crops, and and how they fit into
this system that we've been talking about after
we've been talking about a cash grain system
mostly, where we've... We're using cover crops as
a bridge from 1...
1 crop to the next and and some
of those things,
where do livestock fit into this system that
we've been describing?
And to me, it's it's a no brainer,
but I also wanna step back and say,
the soul first, the livestock sucking in the
soil first. You know, we have to take
care of them, and that's through living plants.
Right? We always say healthy soil healthy plants.
Well, what comes after healthy plants, healthy animals.
So we gotta understand the hierarchy. Take care
of the animals in the soil first.
Dave brand done a phenomenal job building soils
improving his soil just through cover crops living
roots crop rotation, diversity armor or reduces and
service you name it. But the 1 thing
he did not have
was integrated rum.
I think that is the cherry on top
of the whole service Sunday here that we're
we're snacking on mister Darren movement,
but it's not for everybody. Also.
Some folks are just to spread out On
a scale,
their farm is a business and they don't
have time to jack with it. But I
also thank livestock to really make the same
scale and go
exponentially further,
what a great opportunity to bring Junior back
to the farm or have somebody else's kid
in the neighborhood that's interested in farming or
interested in creating livestock,
to understand how to properly adapt grace livestock
talk on those real crop acres. It's a
win win for everybody. It's a win for
our communities for sure
by getting those animals out there, helping to
reduce, you know, wind erosion, you know, nitrates
in the water. I mean, you just name
it them... That what cover crops can do,
that's that's great. But what Cattle can do
to the cover crops as well, that's the
whole another story. Because if we understand what
Cal takes in about 70 percent of that's
gonna come out the backside what a great
way to. To cycle some of those nutrients
and get them into readily available for for
that next crash crop. But I think Rum
is are are critical
I can't stress that enough. I mean, I'd
love to see animals across every acre in
the Midwest. Will it happen in my lifetime?
Probably not. I'm not that good of a
consultant for understanding.
But but it's just working within the context.
Right? You gotta
some people just don't wanna it. I think
there's so many misconceptions
about for 1 cover crops, but also livestock
on the land. A lot of bad management
in the in the past,
gave Cattle a bad eye. Gave sheep a
bad eye. I mean, in My god that's
why they got a sheep foot roller out
there. But honestly,
I love Crazy sheep By I've run, that's
my main enterprise is is is sheep along
with my row crop operation, but I've had
Cattle too.
And,
cattle are much easier.
Potentially through some of these cover crops. But
you wanna talk about a way to recoup
some of the value that you've just put
out there, but also probably get back
a 3 to 1 return on that, grace
animals across it, cycle that and stimulate that
because what those animals are doing, not only
are they depositing biology as we talked about
how to increase in in fast track biology.
So you're getting that biology and document, through
your livestock,
but you're also stimulating those plants to say,
out Injured, I'm gonna send off more
exit here to feed biology because it I
need some repair work down here.
So you're gonna cycle some more post synthetic
activity. And really just make that whole system
crank, and it's just... Boy it just it
just sounds like all also cylinders under fire
at the same time when when you got
the livestock integrated on that on that acre.
To me of the beauty of, you know,
integrating the livestock on the roll crop acres,
is that just you're just adding multiple benefits
on top of each other.
The 1 thing that it allows is for
actually more diversity in the crop rotation. Now
a lot of people were Always I talking
about it, how great it would be if
you could get a small grain in the
rotation, but the typical pushback we get as
well.
That's great. But I can't make any money
growing oats, or I can't make anybody growing
wheat.
But if you can grow that crop, and
then you're harvesting mid midsummer and you've got
the opportunity to come in there with a
diverse you know, multi species warm and cool
season mix, and then g that. Well, there's
your economic opportunity. That's how you make that
third crop pay,
and and make it pay very well. So
then you also get the benefit again of
if you're more than likely gonna get better
corn in and soybean yields, so we're whatever.
Crop you're growing in the in the off
years. So you gotta look at the profitability
of the entire rotation, not just that 1
year where you're grazing. So there's... It's a
multiple year benefit
And I'm sure it's the same in row
crop as it is in livestock that
oftentimes the most productive
operations are not the most profitable.
The ones that have the highest yield, the
ones that we the most pounds
are not,
necessarily the most profitable because there are so
many inputs that go into achieving that higher
yield, that higher we weight,
on an individual animal basis that the profit
doesn't is eaten up by the amount of
inputs it took to get there, Is that
true in your experience?
I was to say, you know, the grazing
cannot not only reduce cost,
you know, on the livestock side, would, obviously,
there's... We can get into that there's all
kinds of opportunities for stockpile,
grazing and then, you know, just keeping them
out there longer feed and less, hey.
Huge economic benefit for the livestock, but also
it can reduce your costs in the crop
side as well. So you're you didn't... Again,
many, many benefits if you can integrate livestock
over and above what it does for the
soil.
Well, I mean, just think about
talk about a roller crimp as a as
a termination tool.
That's burning and diesel and everything else that
you've got going on there. Whereas the livestock
can accomplish some of, maybe not quite as
exactly efficiently, but they're also
doing more than just laying cover down, they're...
Processing those things and and shooting... Like you
said, 70 for 70 percent of it out
the back and and those things are probably
better than just
plain old
carbon laid down on the soil in the
end at the end of the day.
Yep. Much better. Yep.
So yeah. Just, I guess, anything else there
as far as the grazing the cover crops
and and how that fits into the to
a...
Cash grain scenario that we've been talking about
here
for the most part?
Well, we touched that nutrient cycling earlier, but
again,
another huge benefit there. If you take a
cover crop that
naturally, if you just let it
decompose and die, it might take 6 months
or a year, whatever it is for those
nutrients to cycle back through that soil system.
You're on that through a cow. You just
did it in 48 hours,
plus you're adding a whole load of biology.
I mean, a rum
digestive system is
just absolutely full of organisms,
you know, the whole food webs is in
there, and it's a lot of the same
organisms that live in the soil. So you're
you're turbo charging,
you know, the biological activity in your soil
when you run a a grazing animal across
that. So big benefits there on the nutrient
cycling side as well.
And you you definitely should be taking a
a nutrient credit for that when you're going
back your cash crop. Back to where we
started. Right,
speeding up biological time.
We can do it with cover crops, but
we can do it with we can do
it faster with cover crops
integrating livestock as well into those acres. Yeah.
And 1 of the best things that I
think about having livestock or even just that
diversity, you know, diversity key we talked about.
I talked a lot of guys and I
made it through eighties and they said the
only thing Made it counted through the eighties
was the diversity of enterprises on their operation.
This So livestock and cover crops. And even
on it doesn't even have to be your
most productive ground, it can be from marginal
land, just get something established there.
Where I'm at my neck woods and my
context,
a lot of timber soil,
most guys are forming all the way. They're
scraping the planter, scraping the combines with the
tree limbs, Right That to me, that's not
being a good steward to the land. That
land is not to be row crop.
So maybe like myself. Right I've taken 30
feet all the way around at least on
all my my timber fields, and I've got,
a strip if you will. I can either
hey, raise it whatever, but I'm not putting
those inputs out. There. But it makes it
easier for me to grace.
When I do get livestock in there.
That livestock integration is just critical, help break
the weed cycles so you know and our
corn being ultra up alterations, You know, we're
not in a rotation in our row crop
world that's alternating between corn soybeans for the
most part. What a great way to break
up weed cycles,
you know,
everybody talks about filing. Weed, resistant weeds. Well,
they're resistant because we've been doing the same
thing thing for a year and year out.
You know, and our our tools in the
box from a herbicide standpoint,
our running thin very fast. You know, water
hemp is the bay of all road crop
guys for,
especially here in the Midwest. And now they're
find an Hp,
resistant water in. Well, that's a that's a
bleach or cali type product. Right? So
we relied on D cam. That came was
the holy savior to come out. That was
towards the end of my my ag retail
days, and I can't think of what.
My opinion what a worse product to come
out with for already that had herbicide resistance
built up it, but what a fast track
of what a herbicide resistance can build up
to that.
Even talking about Larry and Herbicides, You know,
practices have been talked about it. They're they're
not effective. I mean, they're they're coming to
an end at some point. Mother nature will
always win.
And the only way we can efficiently
break some disciples is through some our cultural
practices.
Not not so much to chemical practices, You
know, that every every herbicide out there is
gonna build resistance to at some point.
So we gotta understand that. And if we
can throw a cover crop in there and
gray it what a great way to break
that weed cycle,
not only we'd cycle with some of the
other things we battle, our diseases our our
fungi decides and things like that, we can
start to reduce on. By building some aggregation,
getting some life back into the soils, spill
some, in the soil. So, you know, that's...
There's just so many
benefits that can come with this with proper
management and understanding of what what you want
that system to be and do.
Doesn't have to be farm scale to start
out It can be whatever comfort level you
be happy with. But to me, it's... It
it it just... It it it works, and
it's a no brainer for me.
Certainly, anything else you wanna say there as
we wrap up? I think that's that's a
great way to wrap it up, but Brian,
anything else you wanna say?
No. We covered a lot of ground. Yeah.
I just encourage people to... If they've never
planted a cover crop, just look into it,
start asking questions.
You know, if you got a neighbor that's
soon and talk to him, asking him what
he's doing, learn from other people,
you know, reach out to us, if they
have questions, we... It's just, you So fundamentally
important to keep that living root in the
soil as long as possible and cover crops
are definitely 1 of our main tools for
accomplishing that as well as, you know, being
able to integrate livestock into an operation in
a profitable way.
So give it a try. And I like
I like how you that, Brian, you said
we covered a lot of ground. I hope
we sure did, hope we got a lot
of people.
Encourage find some more cover crops. Yeah. Pump
pun intended. Yeah. Alex say drill maybe drill
with cover curry. Yes.
I think that it's it is a system.
What I'm realizing more and more is there
isn't really 1 of the 6 principles of
soil health that you can emphasize over the
other.
You know, you talked about the importance of
living roots, but you can't you can't
emphasize that over
over having...
Armor on the soil, reducing disturbance, diversity, livestock,
integration or your context. All of those things
have to be there as well. You know?
And so
the the... Like you said, the cherry on
top is to get them all all together,
and we'll never go as far as we
could if we're skipping out on 1 of
them. So,
Luke and and Brian, thank you guys for
your time, and they I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Corey. Glad to do it. Thanks for
having us.
Very good stuff there with Brian and Luke.
Really appreciate them. As I said, fresh off
soil Health Academy myself.
Very practical course. Really enjoyed the course,
good mix of
mornings in the classroom afternoons out in the
field and just for, you know, maybe it
was just the number of of things I've
been exposed to over the years or just
the first time I really understood.
What we're looking at when we pull that
soil plug out of the ground, some of
the different things that they were seeing, I
was able to see them as well. And
so, just, I think chalk that up to
the teachers. And,
the guys that were there pointing those things
out to us.
Along the way. So Encourage you to check
out a soil health canopy coming your way
near you or worth the trip to go
and track 1 down abroad
as well. Coming up next week on the
Working cow podcast. We're gonna talk to
Jordan Steele.
Jordan Steele is a member of a couple
of different teams. He's a member of team
of the team at Ranch Right. He's a
member of the team at ranch management consultants,
and we're gonna talk to him about forming
entities,
Llc, s corp,
C corps and the like. So what what
are the different considerations? What are the things
to think about, what are the benefits advantages,
risks, all those things, try to cover.
All facets of
entities coming your away real soon on another
episode of the Working cow podcast. We will
see you then
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