00:00:11:19 - 00:00:41:16 Unknown Hi, I'm Gail. Hi, I'm Katherine. Welcome to women over 78 and reimagined our award winning weekly podcast. Is it women over 70.com to learn how you may become involved. Join aging, reimagine, circle and enjoy free participation in our online monthly programs. And we want to thank our sponsor, Plymouth Place in Lagrange Park, Illinois, where senior living is redefined with options and opportunities to fit individual needs and preferences. 00:00:41:18 - 00:01:07:16 Unknown And today, we're pleased to have in our studio Rabbi Doctor Joe David. Rabbi Joe is a writer of both scholarly nonfiction and fictional works, a teacher of sacred texts, and an inspirational speaker on issues in social justice, feminism, and self-empowerment. Before Joe became a writer, she grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and lived in Manhattan and San Francisco. 00:01:07:18 - 00:01:38:03 Unknown As a young adult, she entered the world of advertising. Here, she found a niche for herself to support her young son as a divorced woman. By the time she was in her early 30s, Joe knew advertising was not how she wanted to spend the rest of her life. The experience of being Jewish in San Francisco, a city with a relatively small Jewish community compared to New York City, helped her understand how a rabbi could make a real difference in people's lives. 00:01:38:05 - 00:01:47:18 Unknown Not only Jews, but all people. Once set on her path, it took Joe about ten years to become a congressional rabbi. Although she enjoyed this 00:01:47:18 - 00:02:12:04 Unknown role, she soon began to work with Jews and non-Jews. Outside the walls of a house of worship. She received her doctorate from a Christian seminary to further her interfaith interests. After putting everyone else before herself at 70, Joe determined it was her time and already published author of books, articles and poetry. 00:02:12:06 - 00:02:41:14 Unknown The urge to do something more set in. Named after Joe March in Little Women, she wondered, was it her destiny to become a racy romance novelist? Rabbi Joe adopted the alias Nola Saint James and began writing romance novels set in the English Regency era. So welcome to women over 70. Aging. Reimagined. Joe. We're so happy to have you. 00:02:41:16 - 00:02:55:02 Unknown Thank you, Gail and Kathryn. I'm so pleased to be here. And to talk with you and, your listeners and viewers about how great it is to be over seven. 00:02:55:04 - 00:03:28:03 Unknown Well, there's so much that we would like to talk with you about, and, but but you brought up the topic when we discussed about self validation and, and what does that mean to you. Why is it so important to you? I grew up in a very traditional home. I remember my mother telling me when I was a young teenager that the woman's job is to serve the man who, and I didn't think so. 00:03:28:05 - 00:03:58:10 Unknown That that was the first hint that I had that my view of of who I was and what my job was in the world was different, perhaps from the people around me. And I wish I could go back to when I was 16 or 17 and tell my younger self that I shouldn't worry about being different and I shouldn't worry about the judgments. 00:03:58:10 - 00:04:38:18 Unknown I mean, in the 60s, we didn't even have that that concept of judgments, right? The world was all about judgments. And did you look the right way and did you act and and your life could be ruined if you made one misstep. I would tell my younger self that I should have confidence in what I wanted to do, what I thought was right, and not to put such so much stake in, what other people were telling me I should be. 00:04:38:18 - 00:05:14:01 Unknown I should do what was wrong with me. I had to fix myself. All of those things that that, looking back, need my the my earlier years so difficult because I was struggling to live what I felt was my authentic life. And at the same time, I was always battling in this internal struggle that I wasn't that my what I thought was my best life was not what everybody was telling me. 00:05:14:03 - 00:05:44:19 Unknown I and and it wasn't really until I was in my late 60s that I started thinking about, the fact that I didn't need anyone's approval. You know, and I and I and that and that I could, in fact, take that giant leap. And it's such a chance to to say, this is who I am. This is what I want. 00:05:44:21 - 00:06:13:09 Unknown And I can do this. I should do it. Whatever. And I remember thinking, I run this wonderful group on Monday nights. It's for the Bible explorers we've been meeting. Weekly for ten years, and it's, a the interfaith group, and we study all kinds of religious texts, and, we talk about religious history. It's a wonderful group of people. 00:06:13:15 - 00:06:39:02 Unknown And a number of the women in the group. It's 70 a couple of years before I did, and I didn't realize it, didn't realize they were in their 70s, because they looked 70, you know, no 170 today. If you're if you're lucky. What if 70? Looks like. You know, in my mind, my grandmother died when she was 73, and she looked very old, 50. 00:06:39:04 - 00:07:09:22 Unknown So 770 today is a 70 no one's ever seen before. This is for at least in America. But I was so surprised. I was terrified of hitting 70. And when I learned that these women were 71, 72, that working late skiing, they were off to mountain climbing, they were doing all these things. This is interesting. Maybe isn't going to be so bad. 00:07:09:24 - 00:07:39:12 Unknown And actually, it's been wonderful. This this is probably my 40s were a great decade, and but I think my 70s are even better. That's good. So. So you decided to go to rabbinical school, and and the question comes up. So how do you know what to do with your life? That's a major decision. It is a major decision. 00:07:39:14 - 00:08:08:24 Unknown I do I had to do something other than advertising. Right. And I've always been someone who was introspective and, analytical and which is kind of how I got into advertising. And I thought, well, maybe I'll be a therapist, but the thought of sitting in a room and hearing people's problems for eight, ten hours a day, 4 or 5 days or more week. 00:08:09:01 - 00:08:35:07 Unknown I thought, you know, this is not me. This is. I might like to help one person at a time for a while, but to make, a career that I. I didn't see that as being something to do. And I was thinking, you know, and I think this is how you find your path is a combination of, thinking and intuition. 00:08:35:09 - 00:09:04:07 Unknown I was I was trying to work it out logically, and, I believe in the pre-interview. I told the story about how I started going to synagogue in San Francisco because I didn't know any Jewish people, and I thought I'd meet Jewish people, and I had never really gone on a regular basis to synagogues. And so I was I started going to a reformed synagogue, where almost everything, especially at that time, was in English. 00:09:04:12 - 00:09:26:21 Unknown So one would think you go in, you sit and you feel part of the group. You understand everything. Well, no, I didn't understand what was going on. It didn't make sense. I couldn't figure out why the rabbi, that I'm a male rabbi, why the rabbi was talking about the things he was talking about. I just didn't get it. 00:09:26:23 - 00:09:48:24 Unknown And I thought, this is ridiculous. Some smart person, And I want to be here, and this isn't working for me, and but I had made a commitment myself to go, oh, I wasn't going to stop going just because I didn't understand what was going on. And I began to think about what he was doing and what was going on. 00:09:48:24 - 00:10:27:11 Unknown And that, like a marketer, is the reason that they do this is this reason the rich and I found myself thinking about, I could do that, I could do that, I could do that better. And which I didn't know any Hebrew. I had no formal Jewish training, but there was something about everything that was going on and in, in the sanctuary when I was in those services that appealed to me, even though I didn't understand it, people. 00:10:27:13 - 00:10:55:01 Unknown And I was also going through some family issues at that time. And I went to talk to the rabbi, and he was very helpful and I had never really talked to a rabbi before. And, It I so when thinking, what am I going to do? I have to do something else. I want to train horses, but I can't do that because I can't do that for my family. 00:10:55:03 - 00:11:32:00 Unknown And I, I just it was all going around in my brain. And I was walking home one day and I thought. I could be around by and the the thing about I can be a rabbi or actually, I should I will be rabbi. If I'm honest, I will. I knew it, it was an instinctual knowing. I thought my first thought when I had that thought was, that's ridiculous. 00:11:32:02 - 00:12:02:02 Unknown And I tried to, just shake it off, you know, redirect myself. And it was like it from inside. You will be a rabbi. I became very, a very strong response to. That's ridiculous. And one of the things about this was that at the time this was in about 1980, they had only started ordaining women in 1972. 00:12:02:04 - 00:12:21:16 Unknown And so there were maybe a handful of women rabbis in the entire world. It wasn't like I had the role model. It's helpful if you have a role model, if you have an idea about what you want to do, and then you have the role model and then you can see how how that role models those things. 00:12:21:18 - 00:12:46:23 Unknown But I didn't know any I didn't know any ramp on this. But it seemed to me I had an intuitive sense that I couldn't figure out how that could happen. It was I was always good at figuring things out. That was so it was like, I'm going to go to Mars, right? And and I can't just go to JFK and get on the Mars shuttle. 00:12:46:24 - 00:13:16:06 Unknown Right? I have to figure out. So I decided that I didn't know I, I had a sense of clarity that I was going to do that. I think that's to answer your question, that when you get on something where you say, oh. It might be crazy, it might be something that everybody is going to tell you is not acceptable. 00:13:16:06 - 00:13:42:14 Unknown And frankly, my parents were horrified when I told them I was okay. I because I first of all, they were very secular Jews, but also it was my taking on such a male to them, something to most people at that time, a male role was very, very unsettling. By the time my son came along and he became a rabbi, they were delighted. 00:13:42:16 - 00:14:08:20 Unknown But but they never quite thought it, especially my father. He never even after I was ordained and I had a court, my own congregation never quite understood what I was, what I was doing or why I was doing it. But, you know, I think if you are, if you give yourself permission, I think this is the really big thing. 00:14:08:22 - 00:14:45:16 Unknown If you give yourself permission to imagine every, every choice. I say when it's right, I'll know, because it will be. It might not be clear, but it will be easy. I can figure out the first step. That's all you have to do is to figure out the first step. And if you put one foot in front of the other, it's like the path rolls out before you and you pay attention to what's happening and you follow that path. 00:14:45:16 - 00:15:11:02 Unknown And that's what happened to me. I said, okay, I have no idea how this is going to happen, but I don't have to plan everything now. I have to learn Hebrew. That is clear. And I taught myself elementary Hebrew. And I started reading about Judaism, and we started doing things at home. And, that's and I just it was one foot in front of the other. 00:15:11:02 - 00:15:44:03 Unknown And also, you need to realize that it's never a straight path, right. But, but, but that's, you know, if you're find your parents are very lucky. And during those ten years, as you're preparing to become a rabbi, we're still working in advertising. I was doing a number of things, we, I was living in San Francisco at that time, and we ended up having to come back to New York and the, we still had our agency at that time. 00:15:44:05 - 00:16:21:06 Unknown And, so I was still working in advertising, but my husband and I joined there, a large reformed synagogue, central synagogue here in the city. They actually had a female assistant rabbi. So that was very, very helpful. And our the synagogue on Long Island, where my son, my son at that time was living with my my parents because I was traveling so much, and he was going to this lovely reformed synagogue, Temple Sinai in Roslyn, and they had this system, female rabbi. 00:16:21:08 - 00:16:50:23 Unknown So suddenly I had some role models and I had some people to talk to, and it was very helpful. But I was doing the advertising and then we finally had to close our advertising, our agency. And I, was doing in order to a rabbinical school as a graduate program. And I had not finished my undergraduate degree. So while I was finishing my undergraduate degree, I was doing advertising, I was doing freelance, things. 00:16:50:23 - 00:17:20:18 Unknown And, the big change came when I got a job working as the director of marketing for the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is the conservative movement, seminary here in the city. And that was great because I got to meet Bravo finally. You know, so I tried to steer what I was doing to give me, give me tools for getting into rabbinical school. 00:17:20:18 - 00:17:45:16 Unknown And I often thought of it as my quest to get into rabbinical school, which meant ultimately finishing my undergraduate degree. I applied to one of the seminaries and was turned down because they I had two unorthodox an educational background. The fact that I built a multi-million dollar agency didn't matter to them. I don't have an A in geometry. 00:17:45:18 - 00:18:16:08 Unknown It was. It was so crazy. But they said, go get a masters. So I and they did me a great favor that the two years that I spent at NYU doing a master's in Jewish study was the greatest education I could have ever. I would never have done it. So I did that. And while I was in school, I was doing other things, whatever I could pick up, especially in the summer, doing all kinds. 00:18:16:08 - 00:18:47:02 Unknown I ran a, I had start, my, story mobile for one of the headstart programs in the city where we would go around, to these different housing projects and put on puppet shows, and we read stories. And I loved that. I've always loved the theater. And so that was a lot of fun. So I did whatever I could find to make money while I was on my quest to get into rabbinical school. 00:18:47:02 - 00:19:22:06 Unknown And, finally in 1988, I entered, the Academy for Jewish Religion. And and where did you where are you, a public rabbi at all? Yes. The I was a I stopped I started doing work in the pulpit before I was even officially in rabbinical school, but, the school at the academy where I was at, I had gotten a request for someone to come and lead my holiday service at Children's Services for my synagogue. 00:19:22:06 - 00:19:50:20 Unknown And so I started doing that. And, I had also been, Central Synagogue had a daily morning prayer service, for people who was saying, Kaddish. We're remembering people who had died. And, I had gotten very involved there. It was part of learning what the Jewish world was like. And I used to run that program, for them for five days a week and in the morning. 00:19:50:20 - 00:20:11:06 Unknown So I was doing all these things. And this is pretty typical of people who end up in rabbinical school. You find ways to practice you different skills. Said, you know, if you really want to do this. And so and then later on, and then I was, an intern at one of the local reformed synagogues for a few years. 00:20:11:06 - 00:20:36:22 Unknown So. And then afterwards I did have, several. And so are you still a practicing rabbi, Joe? Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Most rabbis, unless they say I'm never going near another Jewish person again. Once. Once you're ordained, you're pretty much always a rabbi. You're always doing something, and if you care to, And I do. 00:20:36:22 - 00:21:07:14 Unknown So I do this teaching online, which is my, my area of interest was always the Bible and understanding the Bible in a historical context. The Bible is literature. And, that's what this Monday night, the Bible Explorers group is all about. And now I'm beginning to branch out. I'm going to be teaching a group, called Leviticus for lawyers, which is and, estate planning in the Bible. 00:21:07:16 - 00:21:30:16 Unknown So, so for different interest groups, because there's a lot of I love doing this is my favorite thing. So I do my writing it and in that way and, I occasionally do some conversion training or weddings, although I've kind of decided I'm not doing weddings anymore for a variety of reasons. The training goes very quickly. Yeah. 00:21:30:20 - 00:22:02:20 Unknown And here we are moving along and, and there's all these things that we would like to talk with you about. And so one which, it, it, it just, you know, sends me over the top is the fact that you have become a novelist and a novelist, racy romance and sex scenes and sex scenes. Right. So here you are, Rabbi, on one. 00:22:02:20 - 00:22:31:03 Unknown And and on the other hand, you have this other life, right? Tell him I, just finished reading this book last night. And, so I have images of of of men transforming into ravens and maidens losing their virginity and evil stepfathers. And, it's just it's just an amazing the rich, fantasy. And, tell us about that. 00:22:31:05 - 00:23:00:19 Unknown Okay. Well, the the book that you just finished, curse of the Ravens Brides, was the first, actually, the first, novel that I wrote. And I wrote it at a time when I was going through. I've been going through a very difficult period. I, was recovering from, post 911 PTSD. And, while I was trying to live my life and one of the I could never I always wanted to write novels. 00:23:00:22 - 00:23:28:08 Unknown I've written everything else. But I always wanted to write novels. But I could never sustain the attention to write 100,000 words or more. It's it's foreign, you know, to to. I can do anything that's that I can do in an hour. I can do that. But but, a book of of that, that length. And it was much it was 140,000 words when I first finished it. 00:23:28:10 - 00:24:02:19 Unknown It requires not only that you do it every day, but that you maintain your arc, that you you know what's going on. And I could never do that for some reason. Be the one of the things that I gained through the PTSD was the ability to maintain that that attention span. And I had been reading a lot of romance novels because they could, you know, they all have to have, by definition, romance Writers of America says it's a romance. 00:24:02:19 - 00:24:25:13 Unknown It's only a romance novel if there's some kind of pappy and that. And since I was struggling so much, I thought, I'll start reading romance stories. I know no matter what happens, it's going to have a happy ending. And after having read about 500 of these, literally, I thought I could write these, you know, there's a formula. 00:24:25:13 - 00:24:45:02 Unknown I could write this, you know, every hundred words is, every hundred pages or so. You have a sex scene. It's easy. But I was thinking about what to write, and I had a dream. And in the dream, I dreamt about a man who turned into a raven, and I thought. Or who could turn into a raven. 00:24:45:04 - 00:25:14:00 Unknown And I thought I woke up thinking, how would that affect his sex life? And I sat down. And that's when I started writing this book. And, and I put it, I tried to sell it, put it aside, and, when I came back to writing novels, and I, I decided I was seriously going to do this about seven years ago. 00:25:14:02 - 00:25:43:15 Unknown I showed the novel to my husband, and he said, you're a rabbi. You can't do this. You can't use your own name. What will people think? And I sent them here. I'm not really a congregational rabbi anymore, so I don't have to worry so much about it, you know? And I'm. I'm now that the beginning of my rabbinic career, where I'm looking to move up through the ranks and everything I do can be taken, and I said, I don't care. 00:25:43:17 - 00:26:13:22 Unknown And and I, and I admit, my one of my great idols is, Doctor Ruth. You know, who was a real fighter for women's rights. I think he's not given enough credit because they always talk about her talking about sex. But she she was a real, fighter, an advocate for women's empowerment. And her talking about sex openly was very empowering. 00:26:13:24 - 00:26:35:19 Unknown So I said to me, I'll, I'll, I'll get another name. You know, I'll write under a pseudonym. Lots of writers do that. And he said, well, you can't show your face, right. You got there was all these. They was worried after. He was worried about what? He's he's a woman. He's a wonderful man. I know my husband since I'm 13. 00:26:35:21 - 00:27:02:21 Unknown So of course he was then, but, but but we've been together for a very long time. But he's always. He's always worried about how I will be perceived. And this new change in me in the last 7 or 8 years of I don't care, is very it's very confusing for him, but but he always supports me in whatever I want to do. 00:27:02:23 - 00:27:28:07 Unknown And that's why I'm now I never thought I'd marry again. His, my second husband and I, I thought after the first I was married and divorced by the time I was 21 and I thought never again not interested. And then Neal, nine years later popped up into my life and I said, okay, you know, this is this is a this one I'll keep this is dual. 00:27:28:09 - 00:27:55:22 Unknown And and he's wonderful. But but he does he I decided he can worry about those things because even if he worries, he won't stop me. That's why I'm married. You know, because. Because he would give me that. That freedom. And, But we shouldn't have to have men give us the freedom. You know, we should learn to take it for ourselves. 00:27:55:22 - 00:28:38:21 Unknown And it's for. In my stories, there's even though people focus on the the spicy stuff. And my spicy stuff. There's a range by an official range, by the way, in the romance world of 0 to 5 and zero being. If you. You heard that they kissed, right? That's zero. And, find is there's practically no story. And so, the curse of the Ravenscroft brides is about a 3 or 3.5, and that's where I feel the most comfortable, that the, the sex supports the story development. 00:28:38:21 - 00:29:15:01 Unknown It's the supports, the character development. It's not just there to to to feed the readers fantasies and my, my heroines or women who learn to save themselves and probably also end up saving the hero. Well, all right. So I just want to go back to something else you were talking about, if we could do it briefly. And that is the PTSD. 00:29:15:03 - 00:29:40:10 Unknown So what do you think brought that on for you? You know, we don't know why PTSD strikes some people. And, well, the other people. I was in my apartment. I lived in midtown Manhattan, and I got up in the morning, turned on the TV, and I was on the TV. And at first, I didn't realize anything was going on. 00:29:40:10 - 00:30:10:03 Unknown But the next day, I couldn't get off the couch. And I was just a mess. And it took me ten years. Everything seems to be ten years in my life, but it took me ten years before I could really say, I'm not afraid to walk outside the door because something's going to trigger, a flashback. I was very lucky to find a wonderful, wonderful therapist. 00:30:10:05 - 00:31:00:24 Unknown The first book that we we published, anarchy romances, dedicated to her. But, the the, you know, the thing about everyone has some, like, no one gets out of life without having to deal with something very serious. And the. I think what could help, what can help us in dealing with with these situations, I know it helped me, is the idea that every morning when you open your eyes, if you're lucky enough to open your eyes, you have a chance for something wonderful to. 00:31:01:01 - 00:31:34:21 Unknown And if you can hold on to that thought, even when you're down at the depths and you think you know you would rather be dead. Well, if you're dead, then it's very hard to wake up in the morning and see what wonderful things to happen to you. You know? But this. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's kind of, I think what what kept me going, during that time and finding, you know, you you find things to distract. 00:31:34:21 - 00:31:58:19 Unknown You did a lot of things that I had never done before during that period of time, trying to figure out how to get my life back. And what I found out is you don't get your life back if you don't get your old life back. But if you've lived ten years you and had not had that, you would still be different. 00:31:58:21 - 00:32:26:09 Unknown Because every day changes you. And. And then the PTSD gave me this gift, this vibrant gifts that I can now sit down and write novels. Something I always wanted to do and could not do. Something good. And here we are talking about here we are. So, so, Joe, we love to ask our guests, well, what do you think about your own aging? 00:32:26:11 - 00:32:55:14 Unknown Or do you? Oh, yes. Very much. I do talk about my I do think about my own aging. In you asked about congregations. My last one creation I had I left in 2006 and I left even though they gave me, they offered me a contract because I realized the life I was too short to deal with them. 00:32:55:16 - 00:33:21:14 Unknown That was really. I loved congregational work. I always loved congregational work. And I loved this particular congregation, except for the fact that they were very difficult and and I was still dealing with my PTSD. I was getting to the point where I was a little bit I was able to function, but I didn't want to put up with withered. 00:33:21:16 - 00:33:46:06 Unknown I, you know, maybe if I was 20 years younger, I would have stayed. But I realized I didn't have that much time left and even though actually we only have the moment in which we're living, but in a hopeful way, you know, maybe I had another 20, 30 years. I didn't want to waste it on that. I have other things I wanted to do. 00:33:46:07 - 00:34:22:10 Unknown And, and that basically said set the, set me on a, on this path of doing things that are for me that are right for me. I did everything for everybody else for for my family, for my my son, for my grandsons, you know, for my husband. Now it's my turn. And I'm very consciously doing things now, choosing to do things that I always wanted to do that I didn't do. 00:34:22:10 - 00:34:27:24 Unknown And when am I going to voice my way? What am I waiting for? Right? You know, it's that kind of thing. 00:34:28:03 - 00:34:47:10 Unknown that's a wonderful note to close. Thank you so much, Joe. And listeners, we'd like to see more of you at our monthly online programs. Make Your Voice Heard, as together we change the conversation about women aging and visit Aging Reimagined Circle at women over 70.com. 00:34:47:12 - 00:35:18:01 Unknown And if you like this our podcast, which we hope you do, we would like to recommend, Alana Landsberg Lewis, who is host of Wisdom at Work Older Women, Elder Women and Grandmothers on the move to features energizing and inspiring conversations with older women activists and artists the world over and their wisdom, resilience and contribute continued contribution to improving the human condition is just what we need in these times. 00:35:18:02 - 00:35:19:01 Unknown Thank you for listening