00:00:11:18 - 00:00:20:04 Unknown High angle and high. And Catherine. Welcome to women Over 78 reimagined, our award winning weekly podcast. 00:00:20:06 - 00:00:33:21 Unknown Visit women over 70.com to learn all about our offerings and ways to become involved, and consider joining Agent Reimagined Circle as a member. Enjoy free participation in our online monthly programs, and thank you for listening. 00:00:33:23 - 00:00:36:22 Unknown We're delighted today to meet Phyllis Booth. 00:00:36:24 - 00:00:42:04 Unknown Until college, Phyllis Booth, 99, believed she would be a music teacher. 00:00:42:06 - 00:01:06:12 Unknown Born in Brigham Young, Utah, she played violin and shared this love with her sister, who was a pianist. They often played duets at church meetings. Once Phyllis entered college, she began working in a wartime nursery. It was psychology that caught her interest, and soon she shifted to the psychology of relationships between parents and their children. 00:01:06:14 - 00:01:18:13 Unknown Their play was a useful tool for attachment therapy. Phyllis was involved in the Association for Play Therapy, and she wrote the second and third editions of 00:01:18:13 - 00:01:25:13 Unknown therapy, Play. After teaching in a nursery school, Phyllis went to the University of Chicago for a degree in clinical 00:01:25:13 - 00:01:26:13 Unknown psychology. 00:01:26:16 - 00:01:28:01 Unknown Previously, she entered 00:01:28:01 - 00:01:31:23 Unknown Brigham Young University, where she met and married her husband. 00:01:32:00 - 00:02:01:17 Unknown Together, they moved to Chicago. Wayne and Phyllis shared a continuing love of music, often playing violin and cello duets together, as well as chamber music with friends. Their lives included much travel. Wayne passed away in 2005 to welcome Phyllis, two women over 70. Aging reimagined, and we're delighted to be in conversation with you today. I'm delighted to be here some. 00:02:01:19 - 00:02:27:04 Unknown So. So tell us, how is it that music played such a central role in your life? I think my mother had a real passion for having us all have music in our lives. She had had a few piano lessons and then just determinedly taught herself how to play the piano, on an old harmonium in her family parlor. 00:02:27:06 - 00:03:00:22 Unknown So we we were just bound to have music. But I think the other part of it is that when you're playing music, you're really connecting with people. And so that that was always the part of the most motif in my music. Quartets. Duets. And also in my therapy. Then they really connected together. So you couldn't have gone into a music career. 00:03:00:24 - 00:03:27:22 Unknown Instead you went for psychology. That was an interesting transition. When I was in junior high, I fell in love with the, junior high school music director, who was, you know, just doing wonderful things with the music, but also reaching out to students and making sure they got instruments. Well, that was going to be the life for me. 00:03:27:22 - 00:04:07:17 Unknown I was going to be a public school music teacher. But when? During the summer of what then? Well, once I got to college, I spent time in the summers, in wartime day nursery school and suddenly realized this is my passion. Being working with children, working with groups of children. So although I continued with my music major at Brigham Young University, I gradually shifted to clinical psychology. 00:04:07:19 - 00:04:22:05 Unknown So when we got to the University of Chicago, I taught in the nursery school, and I entered the, clinical psychology program. So you were there many women in that program at that time? 00:04:22:07 - 00:04:33:01 Unknown There were. But I wasn't singular. I think there were quite a few women. But probably more men. Yeah. Well, certainly. 00:04:33:03 - 00:05:08:00 Unknown Now, let's back up. In the in the nursery school setting. Almost all women. And they were all interested in psychoanalytic analytic theory, and therapy of one sort or another. So I, I was not overwhelmed by masculinity. And as I said, on that path. So, you know. Good. That's good. And and, so I knew the University of Chicago nursing school, grammar school fairly well. 00:05:08:00 - 00:05:39:13 Unknown I knew some people who went there. Oh, and so I know that that the, teachers did a really a tremendous job. Yes. Yeah. So you were you were, I'm sure, among good company. Yes. We had, I think, monthly consultations with a woman who had been trained at the Tavistock Clinic in, at the Anna Freud Center in England. 00:05:39:15 - 00:06:11:22 Unknown And was it the, psychoanalytic center here in Chicago? And we met and talked about for children in particular children that were having difficulty. And, and I learned a great deal from that. Yeah. Yeah. May I, I'd like to ask about the fair play because I I just was with Phyllis Reuben yesterday and she was saying, you know, Phyllis Booth is really the one of the major leaders in therapy. 00:06:11:24 - 00:06:52:06 Unknown And, and I know you wrote two books on it, but. Right. Okay. What can you tell us about it? It's an interesting history. And it was. We, Well, I knew and German Berg, who was, And she has a it was in charge of psychological services for the Head Start program. So in 66, 67, we went all through all the new head start programs, helping, trying to identify children who needed psychological help. 00:06:52:08 - 00:07:42:18 Unknown And we found 300 children and, absolutely no way to get any treatment for them. So, that's when we began developing, a kind of spontaneous play with the child, engage the child, approach, which ultimately we called Sarah play. And just that moment when we were beginning to provide services to the children. I spent a year in London at the Tavistock Center studying with John Bowlby, and his attachment theories, and was when the Carter, who was a very powerful influence on my thinking about mother child relationships. 00:07:42:20 - 00:08:09:00 Unknown When I came back the the program was already this we later called Sarah play was already started and I quickly joined in. I remember one day saying to and we are providing what when the code calls is holding environment. It wasn't exactly what Winnicott prescribed, 00:08:09:03 - 00:08:49:02 Unknown We were it was more based on good mother child, parent child interaction. And Bowlby in the later book said the model for a good parent child therapy is the mother child relationship. So we were beginning to do, the work that brought parents and children together to help them understand that the parents understand the child needs, and it all grew out of the attachment interest that they had from Bowlby. 00:08:49:02 - 00:08:50:22 Unknown And when it comes, 00:08:50:24 - 00:09:20:03 Unknown I mean, I couldn't have done it without. And she was tremendously important, but I think and, and and we moved forward thinking about what was the theory, what was why was it working. The children were getting better, and just at the hands of young, relatively inexperienced people that we were guiding as they interacted with the children. 00:09:20:05 - 00:09:33:19 Unknown So is it still prevalent for prevalent, approach and attachment theory still? Yes. Well accepted. Very well. It's centered is we are active in 44, 00:09:33:21 - 00:09:35:20 Unknown countries around the world. 00:09:35:22 - 00:09:39:05 Unknown The a fairly recent book of 00:09:39:08 - 00:09:45:09 Unknown of Play Therapy series, has us as a second chapter 00:09:45:11 - 00:09:52:21 Unknown and as a, a model for parent child group. 00:09:52:23 - 00:10:23:02 Unknown We were really one of the first, therapists that included the parents. And, and, so it sounds like you're still somewhat involved or at least interested in this area. I have been very involved with it. I'm slowing down a little bit, but, certainly I would say 50% of my time has been spent on the Sarah play in the last year. 00:10:23:07 - 00:10:35:08 Unknown Well, I know you had, Mormon influence growing up. Yes. And I'm. I'm curious to know how did that direct you in the development of your life? 00:10:35:10 - 00:11:07:05 Unknown there was a focus on family relationships. There's a focus on caring about the children. It was in the Mormon community, and I think that I lucked out was having, a mother and a grandmother who were very, very well connected to children. So I grew up in a family, where my father could be playful and engaging. 00:11:07:07 - 00:11:39:02 Unknown My mother could be always attentive to any needs that I might have. Could be very soothing and calming. There was a lot of challenge. You know, I other had high expectations. That's part of the Mormon church, too. And, you know, we I think that my background coming out of the church supported background, really fit well. 00:11:39:04 - 00:11:42:07 Unknown I was very fortunate in my family. 00:11:42:09 - 00:11:58:14 Unknown And and, your husband was Wayne. Yes. And you had a rich life with him. From what you said, the very rich life. He was a, well known, literary critic. 00:11:58:16 - 00:12:31:16 Unknown Anyway, he had a full life in his academic teaching and writing. But, you know, after he finished his PSG, he took up the cello so he could join me with the music. And so we had the music to, you know, we could do duets or get together with another couple or with quintets. We went to Europe several times for, workshops on a particular music piece of music. 00:12:31:18 - 00:12:44:23 Unknown So we had that to share very much. I think I've also read a little and so, so you, you had some really great memories you were sharing with me when we spoke. 00:12:44:23 - 00:12:54:04 Unknown We like to do a lot of hiking together, and I have wonderful memories of hiking to the top of the mountain and being up there with this. 00:12:54:04 - 00:12:56:15 Unknown With them alone. Very nice. 00:12:56:17 - 00:13:16:20 Unknown You traveled to many places together. We did. We did. We traveled a lot. He would have a sabbatical leave, and we would be in London for a year, or, we didn't do the kind of touring around many countries, but we spent three months in Italy. 00:13:16:22 - 00:13:43:16 Unknown Three months in France. So there was a fair amount of travel and that which was very rewarding. No, no. And you were physically active, the two of you together. You used do Vikings, and we did hiking in the mountains. In Utah, we have a cabin that we built that had built in 68 or so. 00:13:43:16 - 00:14:10:06 Unknown We've had it a long time. And it's been a place to go for the summer and to hike this summer. I don't think I'm going to do all that much hiking, but there are a few places I can go with my walker. So yeah. When and I like to read aloud to each other. So if I were doing embroidery or crochet, he would read to me. 00:14:10:08 - 00:14:43:09 Unknown If he were ironing his shirts, I would read to him. So there was always a pleasure. Yeah. And the two of you decided to move to Montgomery Place. He was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, when I was about 79. He was five years older. And so I arranged to move into Montgomery Place thinking he would need the care and I could take care of him here. 00:14:43:11 - 00:15:13:09 Unknown He actually died before I moved in. I had already committed myself to the apartment and to the remodeling of it, and it worked out extremely well. I have for for. 20 years now, I've been at Montgomery Place for the first 15 years. I did a great deal of travel with teaching in various groups of certain people about cerebral all around the world. 00:15:13:11 - 00:15:48:12 Unknown No, no. And I didn't have to worry about who will mow the lawn or who will get the ice off the sidewalk when I was away. So, this Montgomery place, it's a retirement community, near the University of Chicago. Where? Across the street from the Museum of Science and Industry with. And I'm just right with the view of the lake and the swimming, the beaches and that sort of thing. 00:15:48:14 - 00:16:02:07 Unknown So it's a it's an excellent retirement community, and it's been perfect for me. Yeah. What what are some of the things about it that you particularly find appealing? 00:16:02:09 - 00:16:23:21 Unknown Well, there's a poetry group. People get together and write poetry and share their poetry. Each week there's a current events group and somebody takes charge of bringing in information about some significant current event. 00:16:23:23 - 00:16:35:19 Unknown The people get together regularly to read plays aloud. I can always have physical therapy here, which I need quite often 00:16:35:24 - 00:16:53:10 Unknown the food is good. We have happy hour. And wine and cheese but, quite a very, significantly productive group of relationships. It's a good place. 00:16:53:16 - 00:16:55:07 Unknown There's also, 00:16:55:09 - 00:17:08:05 Unknown medical care and, and, when somebody gets to the point when they have to have, around the clock there, there's, there's a place for them to be that there. 00:17:08:07 - 00:17:40:08 Unknown I'm just in my own apartment at this point though. How how a larger community is when commonplace. Oh, that's a good question. We always, is 14 floors and about 14 apartments on each floor. 15 actually, I'm and 14 and 15. So you can but I don't know that they're not that the apartments are not all full. 00:17:40:10 - 00:18:23:03 Unknown Yeah. I really don't know. Yeah. Well it's close enough though. Yeah. Gives us a sense of what is right. And, and so so you are fellas still so involved in everything in life, in in ideas, in in movements. You're just you're very, very active. And you're 99 years of age. Yes. And so, you know, we like to ask our, our guests, what what do you think about your own aging? 00:18:23:05 - 00:18:51:08 Unknown And on top of that, I'd like to ask what what do you think about being 99? Well, I think it's an achievement. I never thought I would get here. I know, I'm slowing down. That irritates me. So I got a little anxious. Get preparing for this. And I would have been, you know, five years ago, I would have said, no problem. 00:18:51:08 - 00:19:19:22 Unknown I can always get on the zoom session. I thought everybody here out of the zoom, at the beginning of the pandemic, and now I'm sitting in front of me. Understandably. Yeah. So, but I'm, I still fully enjoy my relationships with people here and outside of here. 00:19:19:24 - 00:19:50:02 Unknown I'm what I feel about is that I've had a very good and productive love. That beautifully, tenderly supported by people that love me and that I love throughout a long line. And when I die, I will be very happy. Just the the the. Now it's over. But it's not. It is not something to feel anxious about. 00:19:50:04 - 00:20:13:00 Unknown So it's been a very special gift I think. When, when will you be 100. Next March the the 15th of March. Are you planning a party for yourself? Well, Yes, many of them. Okay. 00:20:13:02 - 00:20:21:21 Unknown My family, I'm going to go out to Utah to, Utah cabin next week. And some of the family will come up there. 00:20:21:21 - 00:20:31:03 Unknown So we're starting, we're counting with the, we're celebrating my 9900 birthday starting next week. 00:20:31:05 - 00:20:49:17 Unknown whole year of celebration. Yes. That's right. Because it is not so easy for the ones in England to come to America and or the ones, you know, for everybody to get together. So we just that they're just going to celebrate and celebrate. 00:20:49:22 - 00:20:53:24 Unknown So I, I think that's the way to do it for sure. 00:20:54:01 - 00:21:08:13 Unknown So I'm curious about the given all of your incredible accomplishments and again be 99. If there's anything that you would lament to tell your younger self or women, younger women. 00:21:08:15 - 00:21:15:09 Unknown Well, trust in yourself. Be confident about what you're able to do. 00:21:15:11 - 00:21:18:21 Unknown There's a lot that needs to be done. 00:21:18:23 - 00:21:20:16 Unknown And if you. 00:21:20:18 - 00:21:22:06 Unknown This happily. 00:21:22:08 - 00:22:06:13 Unknown And confidently assert yourself for the possibilities. Do what feels right and exciting. And find good, loving companions. I had a wonderfully loving husband, and I have a loving partner now. Very nice. Is your partner there at Montgomery Place? Yes. Is very nice. I mean, that's very nice. He's a hundred. 00:22:06:15 - 00:22:38:12 Unknown Yeah. So. So all you ladies out there listening? It's never too late. Coming in for 99, but, right. Well, Phyllis, thank you so much for being on our show. We really, really appreciate it. And I hope that they will. And I know it looks at your other, other other ones. And I will be wanting to get in to check on some other people. 00:22:38:14 - 00:23:05:12 Unknown Please do. These two women over 70.com. Okay. That's it. Really? This is wonderful what you're doing. It's a great idea. Thank you. Thank you. And, listeners, because of your loyalty, our numbers do continue to grow. Still, we'd like to see more of you at our monthly online programs. So join the Aging Reimagined circle and participate for no charge and make your voice heard. 00:23:05:12 - 00:23:36:21 Unknown As together we change the conversation about Within aging. And we want to introduce you to another podcast that we think you'll enjoy. The host is Alana Lansberg Lewis and her podcast is called Wisdom at Work Older Women, Elder Women and Grandmothers on the move. She features energizing and inspiring conversations with older women, activists and artists and the world over their wisdom, resilience and continued contribution to improving the human condition. 00:23:36:23 - 00:23:39:05 Unknown It's just what we need in these times. 00:23:39:07 - 00:23:41:18 Unknown Thank you. Phyllis. Thank you.