00:00:11:14 - 00:00:39:21 Unknown I am Catherine and I'm Gail. And welcome to women over 70. Aging reimagined, our award winning weekly podcast. Visit women over 70.com and learn how you may become engaged with our communities through Aging Reimagined circle. We hope to see you at our next online monthly program, and we want to thank our sponsor for today, Women's Connection, a nonprofit women's group with chapters around the country. 00:00:39:23 - 00:00:55:18 Unknown Members are vibrant, accomplished women aged 50 and forward who connect around common interests, empower each other to thrive and stick together as they travel through the stuff of life, no matter what comes their way. Women connecting.org. 00:00:55:18 - 00:00:58:24 Unknown They were delighted to be talking with Denise. Sponsor. 00:00:58:24 - 00:01:10:20 Unknown Her impressive journey through the arts world has tapped her talents in creative writing, documentary photography, custom art, framing and colored photos, collage and fiber arts. 00:01:10:22 - 00:01:17:19 Unknown Currently, Denise, who's 73, is involved in legacy writing and she describes the process of searching through memories, 00:01:17:19 - 00:01:36:08 Unknown and emotions like doing a piece of art. Some of Denise's memories are difficult losses and of caregiving. Denise was seven when her mother died and 19 when her father died. When her daughter Sasha died at age 32, Denise became very involved and caring for her granddaughter. 00:01:36:10 - 00:02:03:02 Unknown Denise married and divorced twice. She took early retirement at age 65 to care for her great grandson. And she has proud memories. She completed her bachelor's at age 39, an MBA at age 42, while parenting three children. She had her first solo art exhibit at age 31. She was protecting the public as an inspector for the Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco, firearms, explosives. 00:02:03:04 - 00:02:26:16 Unknown She was teaching horsemanship at an equestrian farm. So Denise continues to create art exploring new mediums, and has started a fiber arts group in her local community. So, Denise, welcome to women over 70. Aging reimagined. It's been a pleasure to meet you through the Legacy Writing Group and Barbara West, Neighbors Women's Circle. So thank you for being with us. 00:02:26:18 - 00:02:28:21 Unknown Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 00:02:28:21 - 00:02:41:19 Unknown let's start sort of at in your earlier life, I mean, you've had to fend for yourself in so many aspects of life, your your at home, at school and your career and your marriages. 00:02:41:19 - 00:02:49:07 Unknown What stands out for you as the most transforming of the, experiences that you've, that you've had in your life? 00:02:49:07 - 00:02:53:09 Unknown For me, it seems as though there's not necessarily really one 00:02:53:09 - 00:03:27:08 Unknown moment or 2 or 3. It seems like there's little bits that happen along the way, and based on, you know, the choices I made, they've, you know, allowed me to I would say, blossom, and I think it's having some very close friends, some very, strong mentors in as far back as grammar school and in college and in graduate school. 00:03:27:10 - 00:04:24:06 Unknown I was fortunate enough to have, a woman that I met through a mutual acquaintance, and she and I banded together and had our graduate thesis shown together at, and a gallery in Chicago called Artemisia. And, it was because of that that we were able to to do that for a month long project. Usually these, graduate shows are for a week at the university's, gallery, but the, insistence and I guess nudging of my, supervisor in, in graduate studies, she encouraged me to look outside of the university because she felt that the material would be better to be exposed to a larger group of people than just the 00:04:24:06 - 00:05:06:09 Unknown university graduate students. So my friend who had hers on campus, I had mine on domestic violence. She had a was on incest. And so together we presented something that was profound and meaningful to both of us, and we felt that it was necessary to be exposed. So I would say that exhibit, along with my undergraduate exhibit, were things that encouraged me and provided me with, I would say, strength and confidence. 00:05:06:11 - 00:05:39:20 Unknown Yeah. What year was that? Because incest and, and, domestic violence were not, public topics at that time. Really. That was on 1993. And so it was still new in terms of being publicly spoken about. Yeah. I mean, it's been a very and even now, it's a topic that one doesn't bring up casually or should I say easily. 00:05:39:22 - 00:05:53:10 Unknown And there's still a lot of stigma attached to, those who have experienced such devastating, life changing, events. 00:05:53:10 - 00:06:25:10 Unknown I, I was a very shy child, very timid. I mean, I wouldn't even ask a waitress if I wanted you know, ketchup as opposed to mustard. And so along the way, I was able, with the different work that I did, to come out of my shell, feel comfortable talking with strangers, feel confident about my myself. 00:06:25:12 - 00:06:58:15 Unknown When I worked with custom picture framing, you know, there would be everybody under the sun who might come in. And I was the one who had to talk with them and encourage them to look at their artwork in a different light and expose them to different, ways of viewing. And so that helped a lot. And then, of course, well, when I ended up working with the USDA and ATF, I mean, I was dealing with people I never knew before in my entire life. 00:06:58:17 - 00:07:25:14 Unknown And even though I had a badge, I felt it sometimes that I was a imposter because, it's like, well, yeah, I had this badge, but I'm just as human as you. So. Well, I approached everything as, just dealing with a person that I wasn't this, person that had any necessarily more authority, even though I did. 00:07:25:16 - 00:07:47:20 Unknown But I felt that that wasn't the way to go about it. I felt it was always best to deal with people, on a personal level, as much as possible. And, to make them feel comfortable as much as I possibly could. And working with them, because you just tell us what does that it what did that involve? 00:07:47:22 - 00:08:30:00 Unknown Working with the bear? Let's see. Well, under with the USDA adult, with negotiating, growers and sellers, they often had conflicts. And so we had to act as a mediator with them. And then with ATF, we, did the licensing and the inspection of all firearms and explosive licenses. So we had to do a thorough background and make sure that where they were operating was legal, because oftentimes there were home operations. 00:08:30:02 - 00:08:54:20 Unknown And then we would go into their place of business and make sure that they were taking care of things properly in terms of the way they took care of their books. So, you know, making sure they put in the acquisition and disposition of firearms, making sure that the 4473, which is a form you fill out in order to apply to purchase, a firearm, was done correctly and. 00:08:54:20 - 00:09:14:01 Unknown So that's what it was. So. Well, it was really involved, but that's kind of the basic, thank you. You know, at what time. But I'm sorry, gal. Go ahead. I was just going to say that we, I spent so many years in the liquor industry. Now. Yes. Part of your background intrigues me. And I wasn't involved with liquor. 00:09:14:01 - 00:09:53:04 Unknown You were only involved with explosives. Right. But actually, prior. Well, when I first came on board, ATF was still under Treasury. And so they did the alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. Right. And so we would license alcohol and tobacco industry members. But because it was the last year, because we got and while we got I, we ended up being moved over to the Department of Justice, the alcohol and tobacco aspects, licensing and the inspections of them stayed with the Department of Treasury. 00:09:53:04 - 00:10:14:18 Unknown And this all had to do with 911 and realigning all the law enforcement, agencies. So I missed out on that aspect. I did go to one inspection of of, tobacco manufacturer. But I missed out. 00:10:14:20 - 00:10:40:17 Unknown When we talked before, Denise, you told me that at one time you were interested in teaching math or science or maybe becoming a forensic scientist, and then you've been with the eight with these other areas. But you seemed destined for the arts, so, yes. Actually, when I was about that, doing, I was going to go into teaching in, under, undergrad, you know, grammar school, middle school, perhaps. 00:10:40:19 - 00:11:07:08 Unknown And I wanted to do it with art and math because I figured, in terms of being able to get a position, it might be easier to get a position teaching math, and it would be to teach art, because, of course, if anything gets caught, it's the arts. So I wanted to be more, valuable as, as an instructor. 00:11:07:10 - 00:11:35:04 Unknown But then I just decided I'd just stick with the arts and let that go by the wayside. But, later on, when I was working in the framing business, I took the class, that, the College of DuPage. It was a two year university, two year of a college. Excuse me? Out in DuPage County on, criminology and computers. 00:11:35:06 - 00:12:03:11 Unknown And it really interests me greatly. And I figured with my science background in undergrad, that maybe, forensic science would be something that would be of interest to me. But having finished my master's degree, I figured I was kind of burnt out at that moment to go back and study again. So I put that aside. You got a master's in business, didn't you? 00:12:03:11 - 00:12:32:10 Unknown An MBA? No, I got an MFA. MFA, so that's my mistake. I thought that didn't make much sense. If it was a masters of Fine Arts and Photography. Yeah. And my obviously my, interest was documentary, whereas I would say the program was probably more conceptual in nature. But I was allowed to follow, you know, my choices, of course. 00:12:32:10 - 00:12:59:18 Unknown And, I always say that I, I, I made it through, my master's program in spite of the program, not because of it. It wasn't any. I really didn't know what to expect. And one of my undergraduate professors said, you know, Denise, these people that you'll be working with, your instructors, they're like colleagues. They're like, I, you know, they're doing the same thing. 00:12:59:18 - 00:13:27:19 Unknown And and they're not necessarily going to be your buddies for, so, it was a difficult program. I would say it was, it was very trying, but it it, it pushed me and I'm satisfied with what became of it in terms of my growth. When we talk about fine arts. Yes, yes. Describe that to me a little bit. 00:13:27:21 - 00:13:44:20 Unknown Fine arts. Well, I guess it could be, many things to many people. To me, it's an expression of the individual, and what they're expressing could be very personal. They could be 00:13:44:20 - 00:14:08:11 Unknown Very universal. But also if it if you were able to tap in and open up and reveal personal, things, that actually becomes universal because these are feelings and emotions that everyone at some time might have had. 00:14:08:13 - 00:14:17:07 Unknown So you're touching something in everyone, but everyone will see it differently depending on what their personal experiences have been. 00:14:17:07 - 00:14:40:07 Unknown A bit about the about your experience with legacy writing? I was so grateful to get into the legacy writing. To me, it it pushes me to go deeper into the. 00:14:40:09 - 00:15:18:16 Unknown Feelings and experiences that I had growing up. And being able to address those feelings and being able to talk about them in a way that would be perhaps easier for family members to swallow. Because of course, I, you know, I mean, I, I write pretty directly. I think, but I would say that I write in a way that's very lyrical. 00:15:18:18 - 00:15:45:17 Unknown So it's not, you know, like punching somebody over the head with the information or you sharing your work with family members. Not yet. Not yet. I did though. Ask my sister. I had written something that I had read in the group, and I had wanted to ask my sister what her memories of that were. Turns up. 00:15:45:19 - 00:15:50:20 Unknown She didn't recall anything of it at all. So. 00:15:50:22 - 00:16:20:23 Unknown It was like, oh, mujer! Which was rather amusing. But what part of the arts do you find most fulfilling? Well, I, I did started with drawing when I was a child, so I still like drawing. I like holding a pencil and, working with that medium, I, I've worked with lots of mediums, but I still like working with a pencil, whether it's a color pencil or a, graphite pencil. 00:16:21:00 - 00:16:49:17 Unknown But then I found photography. I was, teaching, art, and I, Jewish reform came up in Wisconsin and they had a fellow that was doing photography, and he and I became very close friends, and he introduced me to photography and, I had intended to take a class when I came back, and I did, and I found that I really, really, really enjoyed it. 00:16:49:23 - 00:17:20:01 Unknown I loved the whole process, you know, not only just taking in the photograph, but back then it was film. So, you know, being in the dark room and the the sound of the water moving while it washed the, the, the, the prints after you printed them. I mean, I could stay in the dark room for hours. And so it was, it was magical, I guess, is what I, how I would explain it. 00:17:20:01 - 00:17:50:08 Unknown Very magical. And then I ended up, moving from the black and white film into coloring, hand coloring the images, not all of them, but the ones that seemed, seemed that they would work well with some color to them. So I use colored pencils and are you exhibiting that this work? I yeah, so good work, but I've never exhibited any of my hand colored pieces. 00:17:50:10 - 00:18:21:24 Unknown A lot of them I sold or gave away. So I will have to do a whole nother collection. Yeah. And what brought you into fiber art? When I was young, I learned to knit and crochet, and then I didn't, you know, pursue it. As I grew older, and I never learned how to read a pattern, but I, you know, I couldn't get a scarf or knit a crochet, a hat or something to that effect. 00:18:22:01 - 00:18:57:16 Unknown But after my daughter passed away, whatever reason, I went over to the yarn shop and wanted to learn actually to read a pattern and became very involved with that, business. It's a wonderful, yarn shop in Glendale and downtown Glendale and, and, a group of women would sit and knit Thursday evening, Saturdays, Sunday afternoons. And I just really enjoyed making things that I could give to friends and family as gifts. 00:18:57:18 - 00:19:27:20 Unknown Probably I've kept 1 or 2 of the items that I have made. Everything else has been given to somebody, and then through a friend who became a weaver or got into weaving and fiber arts, I also learned to do, finger weaving. So I done a little bit of that. Not a whole lot, but I've started it and kind of put it aside and have to go back and relearn some of the things that I had forgotten. 00:19:27:22 - 00:20:04:23 Unknown So that's how I got into that. And, because I hadn't been doing a lot of it, after Covid, and once I was with our boys neighbors, I was like, well, I would like to do it again or more. And it's to me, it's something that's really lends itself to doing with a group of people. And so I thought of doing fiber arts, where people who have other interests in fiber would find a place to come to and, and work together. 00:20:05:01 - 00:20:37:05 Unknown And so myself and another woman, Bonnie, we opened up our homes and we had people come twice a month and enjoy the time together. So. So for our listeners, what is Arbor West Neighbors? Arbor West neighbors. Yes. I laugh only because I don't know quite how to put it. It's for, I think people over 50 or 55, I'm not quite sure it provides. 00:20:37:05 - 00:21:24:10 Unknown It's a, it's a big, not for profit organization, and it provides a place for people to come together and to share their interests and to learn, about, things having to do with themselves, things that are pertinent to aging. They have, meetings once a month where you can gather together. They have, the smaller group meetings, the circle of friends, they have interest groups, they have, seminars that are there for particular, interests, such as there was one on aging. 00:21:24:10 - 00:21:52:14 Unknown There's been one on, home living, being able to, you know, stay in place, live in place or aging in place, I should say, I don't know if I'm describing a person have. Oh, that that's that's fine. Yes. I try to make, our community and age friendly, inclusive, welcoming, hospitable place for older people. Yeah. And and local community. 00:21:52:14 - 00:22:37:02 Unknown Is that say again, where which community is that? What's in Oak Park River for sports park area. Well, okay. That's something about finger weaving. Yes, yes. So, it's a loom, which is probably about, half a foot by maybe three feet. And you put the yarn on the loom and then you weave using your fingers. So instead of, a I'm not quite sure actually what it's called when you do weaving, in a larger scale, but. 00:22:37:09 - 00:23:01:06 Unknown You weave with your fingers. I started making, a couple of bookmarks, and then I'm going to make something that I can, make multiple, not multiple of the same thing, but, a number of pieces. And then they can be sewn together to be a larger piece. So. Okay, I don't know if that answers your question. Is it any clearer to you or not? 00:23:01:08 - 00:23:34:07 Unknown A little bit. That sounds obvious, but then, thanks for asking the question, because I wasn't sure either. Oh, yeah. Do you mean I don't have it with me? It's easy to kick or. You're right. But. Oh, I didn't think to bring it. Yeah. It's okay. Check. Weaving the smaller scale. Smaller scale. So have you. I know that your legacy writing as a as a enables you to go back into life experiences and memories has has your life former life experience and influenced your art? 00:23:34:09 - 00:24:09:07 Unknown Oh yes. Yeah, it has my my personal life and your personal life. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. Not Adele. Yeah. In what ways? Directly. I mean, my my, losses. I, have a series of just is an example of photographs that are from what's called a bone yard. I have a friend that would shout in Wyoming, and her husband is a rancher. 00:24:09:09 - 00:24:35:20 Unknown And on visiting we were going down to the barn and all of a sudden I see all these that cattle in different forms of decomp, different stages of decomposition. I'm like, what is this? And she goes, well, it's the bone yard. Like the bone yard. And then yes, it's where, you know, we bring the cattle that have died into a certain spot. 00:24:35:20 - 00:25:02:20 Unknown So any coyotes or other wild animals will stay away from you know, the living cattle and, you know, focus if they need be on the, the deceased. So I took, a whole series of photographs of that. And then I was there later and I took another series of photographs. So I suppose, you know, it has to do with loss and regeneration and Minnesota. 00:25:02:22 - 00:25:06:17 Unknown It has to do with my personal experience in 00:25:07:00 - 00:25:35:11 Unknown And I just I'm curious also about you and, and so involved in your granddaughter's lives and then your great grandson. What does that been like to have that kind of intimate close, connection with with them? Yes. Well, with my granddaughter, you know, my daughter dying at such a young age and my granddaughter being still very young, I having had, you know, a similar experience, just said a different age. 00:25:35:11 - 00:26:02:17 Unknown I felt the need to be able to fill in however I could, knowing that it would never be the same. But at least there would be somebody there that she could know that she could go to. And having great grandsons, I think it's just, it's wonderful. You know, they're just so much fun. You know, one's ten, so it's totally different. 00:26:02:17 - 00:26:40:01 Unknown The other one is almost two. So I've got a really, big difference in terms of the development and, my older great grandson, he is really a ham, and I. It's something I'd never expected, but he really is. And it's very, very fun and enjoyable. And, and also to see the two of them together and how they relate, just, you know, watching again the development of the little one, you know, in terms, you know, an infant and then toddler and just all the different stages. 00:26:40:03 - 00:27:06:14 Unknown In some ways, I feel that as a grandparent and a great grandparent, you in some ways not always, but in some ways you enjoy them more than you were able to as a parent. Because as a parent, at least I was, you know, oh my gosh, you know, I saw this responsibility and making sure that everything goes well and everything else that's going on in your life. 00:27:06:16 - 00:27:27:21 Unknown Whereas, you know, with the grandparent, they always say, well, you can always give them back. But to me, it's not necessarily that that makes it so wonderful. It's just you're you don't have the full pressure, even though you do, of course, worry and are concerned, but you know that there's somebody else there that's got their back too. 00:27:28:00 - 00:27:58:10 Unknown Yeah. Yeah. It's and I can see right. Yes. I know just what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. You know, do you want to ask our favorite question. Favorite question of course is Denise, how do you think about your own aging? Okay. I, I've thought about that, that question. I mean, so I never thought much about getting older. 00:27:58:12 - 00:28:18:17 Unknown Except in terms of. Oh, well, you know, then I'll be able to do this and then I'll be able to do that. And then, you know, my father can't tell me when I have to go to bed, things of that nature. But as I grew older, I would say the only time that it really hit me was when I turned 70. 00:28:18:19 - 00:28:50:03 Unknown And I'm like, okay, I'm 70, but what does that mean? And I found that it just means that I'm in my 70s and that I will continue to do the things that I enjoy doing, and I will do what I need to do to make that possible. And that's what it means to me. Like it like to me, that's good message. 00:28:50:05 - 00:29:11:10 Unknown Wilderness, thank you so much for talking with us. This is really been delightful. Oh, thank you. Okay. And and listeners, make your voice heard as together we change the conversation about women aging, explore women over 70.com and join us at our aging Reimagined circle. 00:29:11:13 - 00:29:48:14 Unknown And, we want to recommend another podcast to you. And that is a Alana Landsberg Lewis who is host of work Older Women, Elder Women and Grandmothers on the move. Formerly it was grandmothers on the move, and it features energizing and inspiring conversations with older women activists and artists the world over. Their wisdom, resilience and continued contribution to improving the human condition is just what we need in these times. 00:29:48:16 - 00:29:55:20 Unknown You can access this wonderful podcast at Wisdom at Work Podcast aka.