Hey, everybody. Welcome to Episode 76 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I am also host of the Virtual Couch Podcast,
and then a couple of others, Murder on the Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism Premium
Question and Answer, and also creator of The Path Back, which is an online pornography
recovery program that I need to talk more about because it's just one of the most amazing
things that I have been involved in because there's an online course, which I love. I
feel very confident about the tools. But then there's a weekly group meeting that is fantastic.
And to sound like a broken record, the men's group is very, very close. And as a reminder,
this is for men who are waking up to their own emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits
and tendencies, or men who have found themselves in relationships that they feel are perhaps
more emotionally immature or narcissistic. And that could be a spouse, it could be a
parent, it could be an adult child, it could be a boss, an organization, a religious institution.
You name it. I want to really start putting together this men's group and then some calls,
some group calls around that as well. So there's just a couple of things going on behind the scenes
to be able to facilitate that. If you are still interested in that, reach out at contactattonioverbay.com
or info at tonyoverbay.com. And then the women's group has been flourishing. It just is an
incredible entity that is so supportive and so amazing and wonderful. So if you are interested
in that, please reach out as well. Today, this is, I already did the interview, so I can tell you,
this is one of my favorite interviews. I felt like the interviewee was so just, it was so easy
to talk with her. Her name is Jodi Carlton, and she is a neurodiversity expert. And I went in
just completely open and vulnerable and let her know that I do not know what I do not know to
even ask the right questions in the world of neurodivergent people and neurotypical people
and how that shows up in relationships and why we're talking about this primarily here on Waking
up the narcissism, there are a lot of similarities in how narcissism manifests itself in a relationship
and how autism, formerly known even as Asperger's or high-functioning autism,
shows up in a relationship because there's a lot of similar characteristics in the world of
emotional immaturity. But there are also some key differences, and Jodi is an expert in that field.
And just reading a tiny bit about her background, I knew that that was what she was bringing into
the interview. I'd had a friend of mine ask me to interview her a year or more ago, and it was fun
at the beginning of this interview, you'll hear that it turns out that same friend had reached
out to Jodi and said that she should get a hold of me, so I'm really grateful that we did.
But she has over 20 years of experience as a therapist. She's an educator. She's a coach.
But she actually is a survivor of a narcissistic abusive relationship where she said that she
had to do a lot of work to recover from her own codependency that had resulted from that abuse.
So we talk a little bit about that in this interview, but I think we're going to need
to bring her on again to talk more about her story because we got really deep into
to the differences between narcissism and autism, the similarities.
And we talked about the entire neurodivergent spectrum and how even things like ADHD could fit on there
and how people are also starting to want to talk about putting personality disorders on that same spectrum.
And that can, that's a lot. So we talk about that, but a little bit more about her background.
She's a leading expert in neurodiversity and she's helped teenagers, parents, adults,
couples understand brain differences in everything from language, emotions,
sensory processing and behavior.
She has her own podcast, her Neurodiverse Relationship Podcast,
which has couples, partners, professionals, and I will put links to that in the show notes.
And she also has a couple's assessment that she talks about,
and I feel like she has just a lot of tools, so I'll link to all of those in the show notes.
But let me just get right to that interview. So without any further ado,
let's get to the interview with Jodi Carlton, neurodiverse relationship expert.
Music.
That's really funny. Yeah, I was just saying all kinds of funny things.
I thought, oh, is this the modern day example of Jodi says, because we were trying to record on a different platform,
a very fancy studio that was glitchy.
You just gotta roll with the punches sometimes. That was really funny. Yeah, I was just saying all kinds of funny things. I thought, oh, is this the modern day example of Jodi says, because we were trying to record on a different platform, a very fancy studio that was glitchy. And then we came over to good old zoom. And I'm like, what if Jodi just disappeared? Just like, you know what, I don't like the vibe of this guy.
He just left. I'm just sitting here waiting. Yeah.
So it's good to talk to you and thank you for joining me on.
So we're going to we're going to say initially I'm waking up to narcissism, but I'm sure
I'm going to run this over on the virtual couch as well. Because I I say so often that we don't know what we don't know.
And I don't know a lot about what you are an expert in. And I have wanted to know more about neuro diverse couples and autism versus narcissism
and all these things.
I know that I've just proverbially kicked the can down the road and thought to myself,
well, I'll figure it out later. And so I guess later is now.
So I am excited. Yeah. I am so glad that you reached out to me.
You were on my radar a year or two ago, a colleague or not a colleague,
but a friend of mine actually had mentioned you to me. And I'm just so glad you reached out
because it's such an important conversation to have because...
There is so much confusion around narcissism and neurodiversity and there's a lot of overlap
and it can look really similar.
And I think that it's so important.
It's just we need to start all of us, you know, as far as kicking the can down the road,
it was I kicked that can for a while myself too, but I had to stop.
It was one of those things that my clients needed me to really start getting into the
weeds with it more and more.
And so I just had to. Thank you so much for having me on.
Okay, so it's funny that you say this because there's, I don't know if it's the same person
then, but I immediately sent a text yesterday to somebody and said, hey, I have this expert
coming on and they said, yeah, I recommended her to you a year ago.
I think that, yeah, it's probably her.
I love it. I do. I love it. Shannon can say she told me so. That is correct. Yes, that's right.
Right. Yes. Okay, so I'm so glad then. This is, but then in reading your background, I didn't realize that
you, reading about it, it says that you're also a survivor of narcissistic abuse and
then spent years recovering from codependency. I can't even imagine what that was like as somebody
that were you working in the field at that time. Oh gosh, it's been such a journey. So
why don't you just take us on your train of thought. I really do want to just sit back.
There's a part of me that wants to joke. This being on video, I had a client bring me
popcorn yesterday. So I almost feel like, okay, I just need to sit back and you just tell me the
story, right? Yeah. But no, tell me, yeah, wherever you want to go. Let's, let's hear.
Narcissism first got on my radar with a book that I read in my twenties. That's the first time I
I wasn't a therapist yet, and I'd finished a degree in psychology, so, you know, it was
probably in a chapter in an abnormal class or something.
But I really first learned about it in my 20s and realized that my dad was a narcissist.
And I mean, I'd always known, well, not always, but I was really coming into realizing how
dysfunctional that relationship was and was having various cycles of having to put boundaries
in place and trying again and trying.
So that's when I first really understood what a narcissistic personality was and I started
my healing from that relationship in my 20s.
What I didn't know is that I was in a marriage, I'd just gotten married.
And I didn't know that I'd married a man who was neurodivergent.
And at the time, I mean, this was in 1997, 98.
You know, autism at that point was still rain man for most of us.
How we first heard about autism and so we just didn't understand this concept.
And so my 19-year marriage was just very confusing and hurtful and painful and it
eventually ended, but.
When it ended, I had a wonderful therapist who I still call her up occasionally and say,
you know, I need a top up. But she was the first one that really helped identify narcissism in my
marriage as well. And so that was the first, and I remember being so surprised. And I think I was
looking at your playlist on YouTube, and I saw one of your thumbnails, you know, when people
question, am I the narcissist? And that just this week I had a client ask that. And of course I asked her. I remember asking her at one point, I think maybe I'm narcissistic or borderline. And I remember her saying, Jody, the fact that you're even asking that question rules you out.
That's my number one answer. It's like, bless your heart if you're trying that hard to figure out the relationship that you're willing to then say, I think it's me.
Yeah, so when I left my marriage, it was more, she was helping me to recognize that I was
in, I was so good codependent, you know, I was so trained up in codependency from having the narc dad.
And I had no idea, even though I was a therapist at that point, I still had no idea.
It just, it's not something that's really taught in counseling programs, and I went
to a really top rated counseling program.
But so I started healing from the narcissistic traits. It was more covert type of narcissism and even you know, even in the last five, 10 years,
we've really started differentiating between the different types.
My dad was very malignant, overt, narcissistic.
So I didn't recognize I was used to that being narcissism.
And I didn't, so I didn't recognize the covert traits until my therapist helped me through
that. And then it was a little bit later down the road.
I had an autistic daughter so I knew about autism and that's how I ended up specializing. She's,
level one. She's in college right now but boy was that that's been a journey too.
So I had okay this is my definition of autism. This is my definition of narcissism,
and then and I'm living this relationship with her this relationship with him and it wasn't
until after my divorce that I really started seeing oh okay he also is neurodivergent.
And has these narcissistic traits.
And what does that mean?
Yeah, and can you define just for people, when you say neurodivergent,
just, and I want to jokingly say, treat me as if I know nothing,
because in this area, I worry that I don't know much.
So yeah, yeah.
So neurodivergence, we've really come to understand is when the brain is really hardwired differently.
And we know now that some of the latest research in just in the last two or three years,
telling us that 80% of neurodivergent traits are genetic. Okay. So we absolutely
notes. So this is basically.
Some of the diagnoses that are falling under this umbrella are ADHD, autism, learning disabilities,
what we used to call Asperger's, which is a level one type of autism here in the U.S. anyway.
Other countries still use Asperger's as a diagnosis.
Hey, why did we take that out, by the way? I'm curious. It was 2013.
Okay, but why did we change that? We took it out. The American Psychiatric Association, it had to do with insurance.
Insurance. So basically, insurance was covering treatment, counseling, the services for autism,
even occupational therapy, speech therapy. But Asperger's was getting ruled out because
a lot of children, most adults weren't being diagnosed and even now adults are not being
diagnosed. But children who got diagnosed with Asperger's a lot of times, their difficulties
were more in social type things, and there weren't academic problems as much. And when
they went into treatment, they were just getting denied that the insurance companies couldn't.
Figure out, you know, what's our treatment goal? How do we do this? So they were getting denied,
and the APA, American Psychiatric Association here, went and revised the DSM so that they,
could start requiring a lot of states require insurance companies to cover autism. So they
rolled it into level one. Now that came with it a lot of controversy. So many people had
had been diagnosed with Asperger's already.
That was, it was their identity. My daughter was one. She was diagnosed when she was five.
And so she still struggles, she uses autism now as her framework, the label that she uses for herself.
But she still calls herself an Aspie. And so there were a lot of people that struggled with that.
Well, I appreciate, I'm so grateful that you could just answer it with that clarity
because I do feel like as a clinician,
when that was taken away, I feel like I just started to really understand
Asperger's and I had the concept of high-functioning Asperger's clients that were, they were fine
taking ownership of that.
And then, you know, how do I learn how to interact in the workplace?
But then I felt like once I remember the first person that came in and said, I don't want to be autistic.
I'm fine being, having Asperger's and it got into the whole concept around labeling and,
and then as a card-carrying ADHD, and now see, look at me, I have to say ADHD person,
but I have ADD, but we got rid of that.
Right?
Yeah. Yeah. people, especially I would say over the age of 50, really struggle with the term
autism. It just doesn't resonate and even some folks in the 40s, the millennial
generation, still see that differentiation between Asperger's and autism and there's a lot of, oh there's just a lot in the autistic community
about whether it's a good thing, it's a bad thing.
Asperger's himself, Hans Asperger's was identified as being a Nazi. And so now that that brings within a lot of a lot of negativity. So a lot of people are really up in arms about using that term at all. And I generally go with what my client, I mirror my client. I like that. Yeah.
Yeah, I have to tell you, I feel very comfortable already talking with you. I have to tell you that
it's funny because the reason I am also very excited of how you explain that was,
I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of confabulation, confabulated memory.
It's a term that's big in the narcissistic world, but basically it's that we create a new narrative
to then fit the way that we see the world. So in the world of narcissism,
it can't be that I was a bad person, so I've confabulated this narrative that it was you.
And not only, when you really look at confabulation, it happens in real time,
because the person has been gaslighting as a childhood defense mechanism their entire life.
And so when you really dig into it, since that person, that is the way that their brain works,
they believe their confabulation, which is why they can gaslight so well. So what's kind of
funny about that is I had assumed that we got rid of the term Asperger's because that it was
not a politically correct term anymore. And then I was being interviewed on a podcast a few weeks
ago, and I found myself going into that narrative and I realized, oh, I am absolutely making this up,
but I actually believe it because it kind of makes sense to me. You know, it's funny when
you learn how memory works, you know. So confabulation, I hadn't heard that specific
term. But yes, that whole I believe my narrative is so and that actually applies so much to the
neurodivergent world too. Okay. And I actually saw something on I was like I said, I started
scrolling through your playlist. And I'm like, this is good. This is good. I saw something you
you mentioned about implicit memory, too. Yes. And so when you have the combination of implicit
memory, which is those accumulation of experiences. Yeah. It's funny, I just recorded a video this
morning on confirmation bias, which is what you just described, where we believe we see and
perceive what we expect to perceive. And I think what you just said about that confabulated
narrative and why gaslighting is so powerful, it's because it's not...
It's not actually a lie. No, to them it's not.
Jodi, I gave an example. It's funny now.
I feel like I'm an old person saying, you know, on this TikTok thing.
But I've got somebody putting some of the videos on TikTok.
And I did one that I took a screenshot. And I have a client that will show up a little bit late.
And I will make a joke. He'll text me and say, I'm running five minutes late.
And if he comes three minutes late, then I say he's early late.
If he comes six minutes late, he's late late.
And he sent me one. And I jump here on my desk. And then he shows up.
And he was six minutes late. And I said, oh, you're late late.
And he said, no, I'm early late.
And I had to put the screenshot on the TikTok video because I said, well, you said five minutes
after and he's like, no, I said 10 minutes after. And it was almost like a wild west draw of our
phones. And he said, I'm going to be a few minutes late. So we were both wrong. But if.
You would have put a polygraph on me and because of my previous experiences, I would have sworn
testimony that it said five minutes late to the point where if I was a good narcissist, then I
would have said, I don't know how you did this magic on your phone where you changed it, but it
said five minutes, you know, you still stick with it. Yeah, I
know what I know. I remember. And so you know, what happens with something that happens with neurodivergence is, so what you
just described is, let's talk about terms neurotypical. Yeah,
neurotypical is more if you think of your our bell curve.
You know, we have our bell curve, and the averages are at the top of that curve. And then the the behaviors or whatever
traits that are not as common or at the edges. And so, so someone who is neurotypical is going to be
more at the top or in that curve, in terms of just numbers, average numbers of how we interact
socially, how our brain, our memory works, those types of things. But some of the traits at the
edges, for example, memory, some neurodivergent people have what's an auditory, like an auditory
version of photographic memory. So we've all heard of photographic memory. It's like you look at
something. It's like a snapshot goes in your brain and you can
pull up an image and read it.
A lot of neurodivergent folks, not everybody, but some have this auditory memory that's like a sound
bite that is locked in. So what you just described is how a direct typical memory might work where
we have an interaction, we have a conversation, and then it's filtered through that lens of bias,
that lens of what we're expecting, what we think, what we already believe, those implicit memories.
And then that becomes our meaning. That's the meaning we take away. This is all part of actually
the communication program that I do. It becomes our meaning. Then you go back and have a conversation.
And that neurotypical person has an interpreted meaning, which is maybe close but not quite,
like what you just described. It's, you know, you both knew it was late,
which kind of late, you know, how late?
Whereas a neurodivergent partner or friend or coworker may actually have a, like a,
you talked about a screenshot.
You take a screenshot and so you know what's written.
A neurodivergent person may actually have an auditory.
Memo, voice memo in their file where they can literally replay the conversation
and hear exactly what was said.
And then that is the truth. I mean, that is.
And that is their truth. But then you filter, but then you add to it
that their interpreted meaning is still gonna be,
they may know the exact words that were said, but the interpretation of the words.
Still through the air, what that means to them. So I give an example often of somebody,
I remember a couple that the husband would get really upset when the wife said, you're abusing me.
Cause she had really started to understand emotional abuse. And then we had this amazing aha moment
where he had grown up with physical abuse.
So when she would say, yeah, that he's like, I can't even have you express that because I don't, you know, and so, I mean, I appreciate what you're saying there, because even if the memory can even be challenged or if it's locked in, but there's still the interpretation of what the words mean or the context or absolutely.
I actually had that happen to me.
So I was in a date of man for a couple of years after my divorce.
That was also he had autistic Asperger's, I recognized it. He wasn't so on board, so I didn't push it.
But I remember one time he told me I was verbally abusive and I was just.
I was mortified because I'm like, what? You know, as a trained therapist and someone who works with
relationships, I know what my definition of abuse is and verbal abuse. And I was just floored. But
what it came down to when we started unpackaging that is that loud animated voices were very
startling from a sensory perspective. So sensory wise, neurodivergent individuals oftentimes are
very overwhelmed by certain sensations, they can be underwhelmed as well, and not detect a sensation
enough. But something like a loud voice can be painful. And like it can set off that, you know,
or, you know, when a fire alarm goes off right beside me, I'm going to jump and be like.
So my loud voice to him was like that, that's what he would have experienced it. So,
as you can probably tell, just in talking to me, I'm very animated.
Yeah. So even if it's excitement and expressive, it can feel overwhelming and overstimulated.
Yes. And he even said that, I remember one day I was, so if it was a disagreement,
that's when he felt it was verbal abuse. And I'm going through my lens of, I'm not calling you
names. I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to gaslight you and all the things that, you know,
I think of as abuse. I'm just disagreeing with you and I'm doing it in an animated way.
Yeah. But one day I was describing something that happened at work and I was really excited about
about it. And he literally said, you're scaring me. And I'm like, so yeah, it's just that lens. Yeah, how we interpret is
so huge. And how we the what we take away.
But I think what's interesting, and I love about that, too. I don't want to I my ADHD works in jokes only. So I want you to
know, I'm filtering a lot of them. I mean, right there, I want to say, Okay, and of course, you didn't you at that
point, you said, Let me show you a loud voice, because then he learns, right?
I'm good with humor is a good thing. Good, but I do find it so I feel like my hope for people is to be able to self-confront
So if somebody is saying that you are scaring me that was that is there an opportunity there to check in and say, okay
I mean, I'm willing to take that data in but then have that healthy ego to say I'm I know I'm not so how do I How do I express?
It's the check-in Check-in the ability to check in I think is one of the things that really
differentiates someone who is narcissistic, and someone who is not.
The capacity to check in. And this is where neurodivergence and and narcissism can have some really
Complicated, overlapping, because that ability to check in is something that I refer to as theory of mind.
Is that a term that you've heard? No, I don't. So tell me about it and I may confabulate it and take it for myself someday.
Okay. Okay.
It can also be referred to as cognitive empathy. Okay.
But what it really refers to is the ability to recognize that my mind, my thoughts, my perceptions, my experience are actually mine.
And they are different from someone else's. I love that, theory of mind, is that what you call it?
Theory of mind, it's like a theoretical understanding that my mind is one mind.
And so I oftentimes use an analogy when I'm explaining this to my client of a mountain,
and I'll say, okay, let's say you and your partner are standing on opposite sides of a mountain,
and this partner is seeing lush, green waterfalls, and this partner on the other side
is seeing rocky and barren,
And then when I ask you to describe the mountain, you're gonna give me totally different descriptions, but who's right?
And I've had so many of my neurodivergent clients have this light bulb go off and they're like,
oh, because to them, their partner has been wrong on all these things.
And it's like, okay, your partner's not wrong, but your partner has a different perspective.
Now, now that you take that, some of my neurodivergent folks are able to go, OK.
I can recognize this and I can I can check I can realize it was it's like a light bulb. I can
realize that I need to check in with me to really ask myself what is it that I'm perceiving and why
and and do that self self-confrontation or yeah yeah yeah whereas some of them struggle with that
some of them and sometimes it's topic specific or it's person specific sometimes and we all that way
Sometimes we're a lot better at it in one setting than we are another, but the narcissist absolutely can't.
Exactly. It's funny when you were just saying that, I was about to say, oh, I have to bring up though, but actually the narcissist can't, but that's exactly where you're going.
Because I do find that when I started noticing the similarities, because I would notice that some of my, because I work so much in that population of emotional immaturity and narcissism, but then the man, the autistic person, there's always just a little bit of,
but they were willing to confront here or they were willing to sit with this discomfort here or go on a journey here, but then it still just didn't feel.
Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so with neurodivergence, there's oftentimes disbelief.
And yes, you know, is that possible?
But intrigue, because they also know that this has been a theme in their lives
and they're not they don't love the fact that they're constantly struggling
with other people and with these interactions.
And so usually, my neurodivergent folks are intrigued, they may really struggle with implementing the changes.
And so that's where we, you know, really, we really have to coach them through growing
up that basically exercising that muscle of the brain, teaching you how to stop and reflect
how to stop and self reflect, how to recognize how to remember that your partner's perspective is different.
But some struggle with it a lot more than others.
But there's still that intrigue and that interest. I like the word intrigue and Jodi, I talk so often about we don't like to sit with discomfort and what do we do with that discomfort?
And I feel like the narcissist just immediately sheds it.
Do you feel like the neurodivergent person is equipped to sit with that discomfort or what's that like for them?
It really depends on the individual and it depends on the situation.
And this is where the partnership dynamics really come into play.
Because I see so, I mean, just all the time, the pattern is that neurodivergent individuals
pair up with codependent, just like narcissistic.
And narcissistic pair, it's like a real common pairing. Human magnet syndrome.
I don't know if you are familiar with that concept from Ross Rosenberg, but I love that human magnet
and they say it's breakup resistant in a sense.
Yeah, it's so true. And so my codependent neurotypical partners have come from their own abusive backgrounds,
which has made them, So they're just inherently, they're hardwired to defer and take care and meet the needs
of others and put themselves last.
And then, but what that as you know, that results in eventually resentment and anger
and bitterness and pain and hurt.
And so depending on the nature of the relationship, I tell people, do you have some people, some
couples have the boxing gloves on and they're in the boxing ring, whereas others are still in a stage of.
We love each other, we care, and we want to figure this out.
And it's harder when couples are in that boxing ring and there's that contempt and antagonism.
It's harder for the neurodivergent partner to pause and self-reflect because it's really vulnerable.
Because when you, and it's harder for both partners. Because when you pause and say,
okay, let me look at what I'm doing here, then you're opening yourself up for the other person to go,
yeah, you sure are.
And what can that overwhelming feeling be even bigger than for that to neurodivergent person?
Okay. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Because the skills to well to emotionally regulate.
Yeah. We're talking about emotional immaturity. Yeah. So many neurodivergent folks are still
very stuck in like the middle school and maturity level, which is another reason why they can.
That middle school, those middle school years, that's the narcissistic years. You know,
That's the years that all the middle schools are a little narcissist. All the middle schoolers. Yes,
they are. And then some go ahead and mature and pull out of that. But a lot of my neurodivergent
folks, because they had so much difficulty with social and relational interactions that they got
stuck there. Okay. And so having that ability to emotionally regulate, like you're saying,
is it overwhelming to them? Yes. Because you think about what what a middle schooler does.
My son's 17 so thank goodness we've we've pulled out of it. Yeah. But you know in his 14, 13, 14
year old days, oh my goodness you know he when he needed to reflect on his behavior or something
that he said or done, he just became this little.
Bully that couldn't handle it. And that's what I see oftentimes in the neurodivergence. But
the thing is, is they can learn how. It's another muscle that can be exercised.
It's funny because I talk, I call it the let's go ride bikes. And I talk about the emotionally
mature, they can yell and scream and curse you out. And that does alleviate their discomfort,
but then they feel better. So then five minutes later, do you want to go ride bikes? And for the
adults, it's where, what do you want to go to eat? And so I like what you're saying, because I feel
I feel like it sounds like that can be a similar thing with the neurodivergent and the narcissist,
but you're saying though,
the neurodivergent can learn where the narcissist is like, well, no, but they did, they said all these things.
So what was I supposed to do?
And now they can't go to dinner with me. Like, why can't they get over it?
So what's happening? Yeah, yeah. What you just described is something
that's really crazy making for neurotypical partners
of neurodivergence, because they will, like you said, they'll get that energy out.
They'll expel it. They feel better. withdraw for a little while. It's either outward or they'll withdraw. But then, like you said,
it's in the world that I'm, the client world that I work in, it's called like a reset.
They come back and it's like nothing ever happened. And they're fine. And then the
neurotypical partners left like, I'm still reeling over this interaction we just had. I'm still...
They just called me a whatever word. I mean, I can't, I can't undo that, right?
I can't just move on from that. Yeah, you call me names, you mischaracterized me.
I can't just, but then the neurodivergent oftentimes is like, well, it's in the past.
Yep. Let's just move on. It's in the past and neurotypical partners are like.
I can't do that. That's that emotional immaturity. But again, the difference between the narcissist
and the neurodivergent is when it's pointed out to the neurodivergent, there can be resistance,
but especially when it's somebody like me or somebody that's not the partner that they're
also feeling kind of vulnerable to, there's that willingness to go, okay, I can see that.
Whereas, you know, with the narcissist, that ego is so fragile.
There's just no way that they're able to do that.
And as a matter of fact, one of the patterns that I see the most,
and I've had it happen twice this week with clients, because so many people come to me trying to figure out, is this neurodivergence,
is this narcissism? And sometimes it's both, and that's a really bad combination.
But the pattern that I see, and I know you've seen it, if you worked with narcissists, is they'll come in for help, you know,
with therapy, I do coaching now, they'll come in for help, but it's always about their partner.
It's always about fixing their partner. Yeah, I feel so validated right now.
Because, yeah, right? The pathologically kind person comes in and like, what can I do?
No, it's me, it's my fault.
I'm the narcissist. And then the other person's like, I, yeah, let me tell you what she did today.
Like, then you'll, you can help her. And then, yeah, the covert narcissists,
which are much less, much less outwardly grandiose
and kind of the in-your-face bullies, They are nice guys, you have a podcast about Mr. Nice Guy, which is a lot of my neurodivergents
are those nice guys.
But every time, it's about how I'm being victimized by this relationship.
And it's so when I go to challenge them, and I have a there was a family I've been working
a couple and I've been working with for a while.
And I've been trying to really figure out because those are the hardest ones to figure
out if it's, it's, if there is neurodivergence there, and there is with this man, he's absolutely on the spectrum.
But I kept thinking I was seeing some covert narcissism too.
And so just this week, I really challenged him and said, look, I know every time we talk,
you're telling me how overwhelmed you are.
And yes, a lot of that is autism. But there are things you're bringing to this too.
And we need to look at what you're bringing to it, because that's where your power empowerment is.
That's when you look at you, you can only look at you. Absolutely.
He sent me a text the next day cancelling, he said, I'm not going to, I've decided not
to work with you anymore.
I've been working with this couple for a year. And I honestly, it made me sad, but I wasn't surprised because it's the pattern.
And his wife, I said, okay, I and I'd been talking to her about what I thought this might
be the case. And I said, Well, I've got some clarity now, because that's.
I would say 95% of the time that's the pattern. The other pattern is either I become the enemy
then and they go on the attack with me or there's just still the consistent, they may still think
they can use me in some way to get to their partner. Well, Jodi, can I ask you too, and I
feel bad because I started this way. Tell me about your journey and now we went in a completely
different direction, but it is guaranteeing that you'll have to come back on again. I'm so enjoying
Right. So when, when you do have that, how do you coach that?
Cause I like what you're saying is that the person will have that willingness to self-confront and that's where I, you know, yeah, that's where I get my data is that that whole go ride bikes theory is that the narcissist wants to get rid of that discomfort.
And if you can get them to appear to self-confront, you know, I call that one the, okay, I'll never do it again until I do it again.
Because it's like, in that moment, they do, they are like, okay, yeah, it does feel good.
I get the validation from saying, I'll never do it again, and I get it.
But then I think everybody in the room sees that narcissistic apology of like, okay, fine.
Okay, maybe I did do that, but quite frankly, you made me, and then, but I won't do it again.
So then it almost breaks my heart because I realized so much of the world I'm working in
is wrecking what you said, like I'm getting more clarity,
and I put all this content out there, and then the more pathologically kind person
is starting to see the patterns,
feel heard and seen, but it's almost like this rule out of, okay, I need to stop putting myself
out there because in the world of narcissism, then it's just gets used against me and I'm
handing them weapons to use against me. How do you coach through that awareness? Do you have
the pathologically kind person continue to show up and be vulnerable? Or do you start working more
with that neurodivergent person and really trying to get them to self-confront.
So if I recognize narcissism and I'm confident it's narcissism, I absolutely do not continue to
work with the partner to be vulnerable. I think that that would be doing them harm. So I start,
what I, if I know there's narcissism, I don't ever tell anybody to leave a relationship because it's
such a complicated decision. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
But I start working with them to recognize, to figure out how they're going to set boundaries,
how they're going to do it safely. And I just, I become a reflection. I tell them,
this is what I'm seeing. This is what's there. This is how it's going to be. And I start working
on that element of hope because so many of that, so many of those partners are still hoping. And I
start working on that with them and say, look, we need to put hope away and we need to look at what
is, and this is what is. And you choose it. You have a choice to be in this relationship, in this
marriage, you have that choice, but you need to really know what you're choosing.
Yeah, this is so that's where I start working with them. When there is not narcissism, yeah,
maybe there, there's some emotional immaturity that really feels like narcissism. And it can,
there can involve gaslighting. I start working with both of them. And one of the things I do
with the neurotypical partner is working on the codependency and to stop taking care of the other
the other's needs at their own expense
to start setting boundaries, to learn what that means and what that looks like.
And so I work with them jointly. One, we start working on self-awareness,
we start working on emotional regulation, the neurodivergent partner, and the other partner.
I actually have had several neurotypical partners say to me,
I had no idea how much work I was gonna have to do here Because they come in really recognizing, well, both partners recognize that the other one's
the problem.
Yeah. But they do, the neurotypical partner, the codependent one really does see a lot of the
dysfunction in their neurodivergent or narcissistic partner.
But it's not victim blaming. I don't victim blame them and say, well, you know, you did this to yourself, but I start
working with them to see how their own, what they've brought with them is contributing to the problem.
To just speak to, we talked about implicit memories. I actually have in my communication
model, I walk them through four stages of an interaction. And in the first stage is
What's in your backpack?
And so I have this analogy of the backpack that is it's strapped to our back and we wear it
throughout life and everything in there is what makes us who we are. So it's all of those implicit
memories, the experiences that we've had, the situations, the environments, the family we grew
up with. But it's also so those have formed our beliefs and our values and our goals and our fears
all that's in there. But it's also our DNA and our genetics and everything that's in there,
our hopes, our dreams. So I teach people to check in with themselves and to start looking in your
backpack. What was in there in that conversation? You know, that conversation that went south.
What did you each have in your backpack? And sometimes that's even your neurology,
you know, the way your brain's wired, your emotional maturity, all of that.
And so I work with them both on self-awareness. A really long answer to your question.
No, it's a good answer too, because I like where you went with that. And I think maybe
maybe even what I was looking for is a unicorn because I want the answer of, if it is narcissism,
I know the narcissism one, like then I'm really working with that awareness P,
the pathologically kind, but if it is autism,
and then we're kind of saying, okay, then they're willing to do the work,
what does that look like for you?
I mean, is it still kind of what you're talking about here? Or I think that's why I realized
that maybe I'm asking a question that is just, I think I'm wanting the, oh, it's really easy.
You just, it's one thing. Because that's the part where I know I don't know enough about the neurodivergent.
And so there, I think I am looking, that's so funny, I'm probably like what your clients
are. Well, just tell me the thing that I can say to them once I realize they're neurodivergent
that then makes it all better.
Right? So, no, it's not easy. It's literally a, it's a reinvention of the couple, but it involves completely coming,
there's an educational component to it.
It involves an awareness of who I am and who I am relative to you.
In these relationships, most people have been interacting and relating to their partner based
on that projection of who, of their own, what they want in a partner, who they believe their
partner is, and what they even want from a relationship. So we start, we really, we back
it up and go, okay, who are you? Who am I? Because I, and I tell them, you can't choose
to stay in this relationship or leave it until you know what you're choosing.
Yeah.
And so you have to know yourself first. So we start there. And so for a lot of adults,
especially neurodivergence is a new thing. That's something that makes sense.
The most adults over the age of 40 were never diagnosed as a child. And so all this, you know,
you talk about the being out there, putting your podcasts out there, the information's important
because the therapists are not trained in this. There's there aren't people out there, professionals
who really know how to help. So, we start with the education piece and with an acceptance that.
You're not wrong for being who you are. I'm not wrong for being who I am, but this is really who
we are. And I actually do a comp, I do this relationship evaluation for some couples who
want to do it, where I put the, I do testing on both of them. It's the coolest thing, actually.
When we think about neurodiversity assessment, we think somebody goes gets tested for autism.
I test them both. And we look at neurodivergence and dysfunction and emotional intelligence and conflict styles.
And then we look at the data side by side to see, well, this is who you are and this is who I am.
And when they look and they see how different they are from each other, it's like,
it's like, you know, the love languages quizzes.
It's so helpful to see all that. because I do feel like, and real quick,
before I forget this train of thought, are you familiar with the welcome to Holland poem
about growing up with a,
okay, this is, I did an episode early on in the narcissism podcast,
and it's about having a special needs child.
And somebody says that you're getting on a plane and your whole life you dreamt of going,
I think like to Hawaii, and you've got your beach clothes,
and then you get off and you're in Holland
and there's windmills and wooden shoes, and you didn't pack for Holland.
And so I talked about that almost in this concept of, you know, you always thought this would be your relationship
that it would be in Maui.
But then I did that episode just to kind of say, hey, you're in Holland,
but I feel like almost, you know, with the neurodivergent is with narcissism,
somebody saying, well, I still want Maui.
So I think I'm gonna exit. And so is the neurodivergent and neurotypical relationship
is almost like trying to get to that acceptance of, well, we're in Holland. We're in Holland.
Get the wooden shoes and yeah. Yeah, because a lot of people are still wearing
their tank tops and their shorts and going, it's so cold here.
And you're like, yeah, it is. And really being upset because it's so cold.
And it's like.
Yeah. If you want to stay in Holland, it's going to be cold, you know, but there's also beautiful
mountains and snow. There's some beauty here too. And I think that's the other thing that for my,
my neurodiverse couples where somebody's neurodivergent, somebody's not. And sometimes
they both have neurodivergences. I see a lot of ADHD paired with autism.
Well, and yeah, and I know we're going to run out of time, but we'll, maybe that's another one for
another day too, but I I'm very open about my ADD. And so I've been told, well, you know,
they're putting it on the autism spectrum as if I'm going to go, what? And it's like, of course,
it makes sense when you talk about it from a, it's what neurodivergent is. And so I love that
we're down and demystifying that. Cause it's part of those brain differences. I will tell you
that something that's made me go, I'm not sure how I feel about that is a lot. Some people are
also putting personality disorders like narcissism on and labeling it as neurodivergent. And I'm like,
How dare they? Nope. I can't. And I guess I get it. Literal sense. Right. It is a brain difference.
But for me, I guess it's more of a developmental difference because something happened along the
way in developmentally as the personality developed and the ability to interact and engage.
Something happened along the way. We do know with narcissism, there's a genetic component too.
Same with neurodivergence, you know, we've always said, or I, not always, but there's
a thing that genetics load the gun, environment pulls the trigger.
So it's, and I think it's similar with narcissism. So in that very literal sense, I guess.
Something like narcissism is a neurodivergence, but I still really have a hard time.
And I'm not sure I'm ever going to be able.
No, and it's interesting because there's, and so I have this amazing private women's Facebook group
for women that are in emotionally immature relationships with fill in the blank could
be their spouse, their parent, their adult child, their religious institution, their boss,
you name it. And so there's a people will bring up that ADHD and narcissism concept.
And I completely can understand as, because I started the whole thing,
waking up to narcissism was very intentional of waking up to my own narcissistic traits and tendencies
or the narcissism in your relationship.
And that's where I made this intentional move to call it emotional immaturity pretty early on
because that's more palatable.
But I do feel like you can see that ADHD is that, talk about not wanting to sit with discomfort.
And being very impulsive and then dopamine driven that it lends itself to things like gaslighting. And I, you know.
Yeah, yeah. And I think the, you said it makes it more powerful.
I think that is important in the work that we do because so many words are just like,
oh, I can't handle that word.
Something that is a common thread, I think that's an important thing to pay attention to is capacity.
And so, so basically I say that the three pillars of what's required to make a relationship work
is capacity, willingness, and motivation on each partner's part.
You know, willingness and motivation are somewhat different.
They sound similar, but you can be willing but not quite motivated.
And I always use the analogy of New Year's Eve and gym memberships.
A lot of people who are willing to go to the gym, but- That is not motivated.
They're not motivated.
But then capacity is huge.
And in that regard, some neurodivergent folks www.circlelineartschool.com
Quite literally don't have the capacity reasons and
Narcissus we know don't have the capacity. So with neurodivergence sometimes it just depends on,
Neurologically how locked in are they to that inability with theory of Mike and how?
Impossible you can they grow that muscle, right?
Some can't and so we have to look at that. And so I would say that's a common thread. That is I,
I can actually swallow that. I can stomach that.
In terms of narcissistic and narcissistic narcissism and neurodivergence having similarities
because when we look at some, just don't have the capacity.
Which they don't, and that's a very important thing to look at is the capacity there.
With narcissists, I've just never seen it.
And with neurodivergence, it really depends on the individual
and everything else that's in their backpack.
And it's so powerful, too. I do some work with the Amen Clinic and they do the brain scans.
And I had someone recently get one and they they identified an area
of it's like behind one of the back of the brain where that they were saying
that should have not been getting as much blood now as an adult.
And then another area that's related to empathy that wasn't getting much blood flow at all.
And so you look at that and it's like literally a brain thing.
But then here's a person that that they do have the willingness and the motivation.
And so then that's, you know, so now they want to learn. Can we teach the brain?
Right, right. And you know, you're really talking my language now, because before in very, very early in my
career, I specialized in cognitive rehab with people who had brain injuries.
Oh, interesting. And so acquired and traumatic brain injury.
So I saw personality changes and all sorts of limitations from a brain injury.
But I also saw how the brain had the ability to, I used to use the analogy of a bridge being
washed out after a hurricane. We were, you know, and then it takes a little time. We may not rebuild
that bridge, but we can build another route. And that's what happens. That's what happens with brain
injuries. And that's why we really understand concussion protocol now is that we've got to
really power down and let the brain recover and heal. So that capacity, when you look at something
that's more neurodevelopmental and you've got an area of the brain that's underdeveloped.
Is the capacity there for some people to teach, you know, to rewire the brain,
get the brain to learn and grow.
But then you add the layer of willingness and motivation. That's huge.
I like that a lot because that's where I've now, you know, I hate to be through a party pooper on it,
but then the more you learn about confabulation,
is what it feels like to be them or their implicit memory based off of their residue
of lived experience of it can't be them because they never saw it modeled.
They don't want to sit with any discomfort. Yeah, and not even only not motivated.
But that confabulation happens in real time. So then if you're even trying to get somebody to say,
look, here's the brain scan and you can do this, they're like, that's not even a problem, you know, right?
Yes, yes, so the motivation's not there. And that would be a key difference
between neurodivergence and narcissism because the neurodivergent individual is very aware
that there have been problems.
They're very aware they've been different from a very young age.
They're very aware that something's different about themselves.
Say they feel like an alien in a human body, that whole Superman analogy resonates with
people and I look like a human being but and even have some superpowers.
And that's some of those, you know, things, but that awareness is there that there's something
about me that's different that other people don't get or don't like.
And so that depending on when they learn about their neurodivergence and everything else
that's in their backpack, they are more likely to have that motivation to figure it out and
to understand it where this probably should be a whole other episode, but where it gets
really complicated is when you have a combination of neurodivergence and narcissism.
And there are lots of different reasons why that happens.
We're still learning about why that happens. I've actually seen clients who were neurodivergent who had a narcissistic parent and it's a learned
Absolutely. It was modeled, right? That's all they know that they, yeah, that's so wild.
Yeah. And so is it true narcissism or is it just a script? my NeuroDivergent folks.
Their way of interacting is by scripting. They study people, they learn how to, in this situation, this, this, this. And we all do it, but it's vicarious. For neurotypicals, it's kind of happening in the background. Whereas neurodivergent folks, it's intentionally, it's very intentional.
And so when they realize, I had one guy realize that he had been very abusive in a narcissistic way. And he was absolutely devastated when he realized how much harm he had done his wife. But then he was motivated.
Absolutely, and it's interesting because as the therapist working with this population,
it's interesting because I work with so many people that are continually trying to show up
and they're continually handing their heart to the narcissist who is then using it against them.
But then I also get that person that just didn't, that's why I like to say didn't know what they didn't know.
And yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but all of a sudden they get the tool
and they just can't do enough with it.
I mean, they want to just figure it out as quickly as they can,
which is a whole thing in and of itself.
So, Jodi, I feel bad. I have a client or I would talk for another hour, right?
Will you come back on and we can talk about your story. And I mean, I really, I feel validated as a therapist.
I feel like I learned what neurodivergence is now.
I feel like I'm going to have confirmation bias for the rest of the day.
And wait a minute, is this person, you know, that sort of thing.
I would love to come back. And don't ever hesitate to reach out to me too.
If you need anything, I'm happy to. Yeah.
Cause I'm really fascinated by the assessment you do with couples.
And maybe we can talk about that too. Cause I think that would be really helpful.
Okay. Definitely. What a joy. Hey, this is a pleasure. I look forward to talking with you again.
Very much. Thank you. Thank you for having me tonight.
Music.