WEBVTT 00:00:00.621 --> 00:00:05.017 Hey, everybody. Welcome to Episode 76 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:05.017 --> 00:00:11.630 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I am also host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, 00:00:12.108 --> 00:00:16.017 and then a couple of others, Murder on the Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism Premium 00:00:16.017 --> 00:00:21.017 Question and Answer, and also creator of The Path Back, which is an online pornography 00:00:21.017 --> 00:00:27.017 recovery program that I need to talk more about because it's just one of the most amazing 00:00:27.303 --> 00:00:31.857 things that I have been involved in because there's an online course, which I love. I 00:00:31.976 --> 00:00:37.777 feel very confident about the tools. But then there's a weekly group meeting that is fantastic. 00:00:37.998 --> 00:00:44.297 And to sound like a broken record, the men's group is very, very close. And as a reminder, 00:00:44.297 --> 00:00:48.437 this is for men who are waking up to their own emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits 00:00:48.437 --> 00:00:54.137 and tendencies, or men who have found themselves in relationships that they feel are perhaps 00:00:54.137 --> 00:00:59.977 more emotionally immature or narcissistic. And that could be a spouse, it could be a 00:00:59.977 --> 00:01:06.877 parent, it could be an adult child, it could be a boss, an organization, a religious institution. 00:01:07.183 --> 00:01:11.817 You name it. I want to really start putting together this men's group and then some calls, 00:01:11.817 --> 00:01:16.857 some group calls around that as well. So there's just a couple of things going on behind the scenes 00:01:16.857 --> 00:01:22.697 to be able to facilitate that. If you are still interested in that, reach out at contactattonioverbay.com 00:01:22.697 --> 00:01:28.697 or info at tonyoverbay.com. And then the women's group has been flourishing. It just is an 00:01:28.697 --> 00:01:34.297 incredible entity that is so supportive and so amazing and wonderful. So if you are interested 00:01:34.297 --> 00:01:38.857 in that, please reach out as well. Today, this is, I already did the interview, so I can tell you, 00:01:38.857 --> 00:01:46.586 this is one of my favorite interviews. I felt like the interviewee was so just, it was so easy 00:01:46.730 --> 00:01:54.617 to talk with her. Her name is Jodi Carlton, and she is a neurodiversity expert. And I went in 00:01:54.617 --> 00:01:59.257 just completely open and vulnerable and let her know that I do not know what I do not know to 00:01:59.257 --> 00:02:05.577 even ask the right questions in the world of neurodivergent people and neurotypical people 00:02:05.725 --> 00:02:10.057 and how that shows up in relationships and why we're talking about this primarily here on Waking 00:02:10.057 --> 00:02:17.497 up the narcissism, there are a lot of similarities in how narcissism manifests itself in a relationship 00:02:17.590 --> 00:02:22.777 and how autism, formerly known even as Asperger's or high-functioning autism, 00:02:22.856 --> 00:02:27.257 shows up in a relationship because there's a lot of similar characteristics in the world of 00:02:27.257 --> 00:02:33.182 emotional immaturity. But there are also some key differences, and Jodi is an expert in that field. 00:02:33.578 --> 00:02:38.377 And just reading a tiny bit about her background, I knew that that was what she was bringing into 00:02:38.377 --> 00:02:44.588 the interview. I'd had a friend of mine ask me to interview her a year or more ago, and it was fun 00:02:44.697 --> 00:02:48.297 at the beginning of this interview, you'll hear that it turns out that same friend had reached 00:02:48.297 --> 00:02:51.657 out to Jodi and said that she should get a hold of me, so I'm really grateful that we did. 00:02:52.582 --> 00:02:56.473 But she has over 20 years of experience as a therapist. She's an educator. She's a coach. 00:02:57.848 --> 00:03:04.233 But she actually is a survivor of a narcissistic abusive relationship where she said that she 00:03:04.233 --> 00:03:09.353 had to do a lot of work to recover from her own codependency that had resulted from that abuse. 00:03:09.524 --> 00:03:12.793 So we talk a little bit about that in this interview, but I think we're going to need 00:03:12.793 --> 00:03:16.793 to bring her on again to talk more about her story because we got really deep into 00:03:16.793 --> 00:03:22.353 to the differences between narcissism and autism, the similarities. 00:03:22.353 --> 00:03:30.073 And we talked about the entire neurodivergent spectrum and how even things like ADHD could fit on there 00:03:30.073 --> 00:03:36.913 and how people are also starting to want to talk about putting personality disorders on that same spectrum. 00:03:36.913 --> 00:03:42.033 And that can, that's a lot. So we talk about that, but a little bit more about her background. 00:03:42.033 --> 00:03:47.153 She's a leading expert in neurodiversity and she's helped teenagers, parents, adults, 00:03:47.153 --> 00:03:52.366 couples understand brain differences in everything from language, emotions, 00:03:52.473 --> 00:03:54.873 sensory processing and behavior. 00:03:54.873 --> 00:03:58.513 She has her own podcast, her Neurodiverse Relationship Podcast, 00:03:58.513 --> 00:04:03.547 which has couples, partners, professionals, and I will put links to that in the show notes. 00:04:03.610 --> 00:04:09.047 And she also has a couple's assessment that she talks about, 00:04:09.119 --> 00:04:13.980 and I feel like she has just a lot of tools, so I'll link to all of those in the show notes. 00:04:14.073 --> 00:04:18.094 But let me just get right to that interview. So without any further ado, 00:04:18.533 --> 00:04:22.154 let's get to the interview with Jodi Carlton, neurodiverse relationship expert. 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:28.240 Music. 00:04:28.231 --> 00:04:29.613 That's really funny. Yeah, I was just saying all kinds of funny things. 00:04:29.613 --> 00:04:31.355 I thought, oh, is this the modern day example of Jodi says, because we were trying to record on a different platform, 00:04:31.613 --> 00:04:32.613 a very fancy studio that was glitchy. 00:04:32.613 --> 00:04:49.613 You just gotta roll with the punches sometimes. That was really funny. Yeah, I was just saying all kinds of funny things. I thought, oh, is this the modern day example of Jodi says, because we were trying to record on a different platform, a very fancy studio that was glitchy. And then we came over to good old zoom. And I'm like, what if Jodi just disappeared? Just like, you know what, I don't like the vibe of this guy. 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:53.185 He just left. I'm just sitting here waiting. Yeah. 00:04:53.825 --> 00:04:58.133 So it's good to talk to you and thank you for joining me on. 00:04:58.133 --> 00:05:01.373 So we're going to we're going to say initially I'm waking up to narcissism, but I'm sure 00:05:01.373 --> 00:05:07.713 I'm going to run this over on the virtual couch as well. Because I I say so often that we don't know what we don't know. 00:05:07.958 --> 00:05:17.573 And I don't know a lot about what you are an expert in. And I have wanted to know more about neuro diverse couples and autism versus narcissism 00:05:17.573 --> 00:05:18.221 and all these things. 00:05:18.573 --> 00:05:22.453 I know that I've just proverbially kicked the can down the road and thought to myself, 00:05:22.453 --> 00:05:24.549 well, I'll figure it out later. And so I guess later is now. 00:05:25.093 --> 00:05:29.600 So I am excited. Yeah. I am so glad that you reached out to me. 00:05:29.733 --> 00:05:33.693 You were on my radar a year or two ago, a colleague or not a colleague, 00:05:33.693 --> 00:05:38.813 but a friend of mine actually had mentioned you to me. And I'm just so glad you reached out 00:05:38.813 --> 00:05:43.058 because it's such an important conversation to have because... 00:05:43.832 --> 00:05:49.522 There is so much confusion around narcissism and neurodiversity and there's a lot of overlap 00:05:49.522 --> 00:05:51.482 and it can look really similar. 00:05:51.637 --> 00:05:53.602 And I think that it's so important. 00:05:53.915 --> 00:05:58.442 It's just we need to start all of us, you know, as far as kicking the can down the road, 00:05:58.442 --> 00:06:03.002 it was I kicked that can for a while myself too, but I had to stop. 00:06:03.002 --> 00:06:08.722 It was one of those things that my clients needed me to really start getting into the 00:06:08.722 --> 00:06:10.802 weeds with it more and more. 00:06:11.010 --> 00:06:13.936 And so I just had to. Thank you so much for having me on. 00:06:14.098 --> 00:06:17.002 Okay, so it's funny that you say this because there's, I don't know if it's the same person 00:06:17.002 --> 00:06:22.362 then, but I immediately sent a text yesterday to somebody and said, hey, I have this expert 00:06:22.362 --> 00:06:25.322 coming on and they said, yeah, I recommended her to you a year ago. 00:06:25.450 --> 00:06:26.842 I think that, yeah, it's probably her. 00:06:27.642 --> 00:06:31.562 I love it. I do. I love it. Shannon can say she told me so. That is correct. Yes, that's right. 00:06:31.562 --> 00:06:37.322 Right. Yes. Okay, so I'm so glad then. This is, but then in reading your background, I didn't realize that 00:06:37.322 --> 00:06:41.642 you, reading about it, it says that you're also a survivor of narcissistic abuse and 00:06:41.642 --> 00:06:46.762 then spent years recovering from codependency. I can't even imagine what that was like as somebody 00:06:46.762 --> 00:06:51.082 that were you working in the field at that time. Oh gosh, it's been such a journey. So 00:06:51.082 --> 00:06:54.042 why don't you just take us on your train of thought. I really do want to just sit back. 00:06:54.042 --> 00:06:57.562 There's a part of me that wants to joke. This being on video, I had a client bring me 00:06:57.562 --> 00:07:01.962 popcorn yesterday. So I almost feel like, okay, I just need to sit back and you just tell me the 00:07:01.962 --> 00:07:05.962 story, right? Yeah. But no, tell me, yeah, wherever you want to go. Let's, let's hear. 00:07:05.962 --> 00:07:11.482 Narcissism first got on my radar with a book that I read in my twenties. That's the first time I 00:07:11.482 --> 00:07:16.642 I wasn't a therapist yet, and I'd finished a degree in psychology, so, you know, it was 00:07:16.642 --> 00:07:19.762 probably in a chapter in an abnormal class or something. 00:07:19.762 --> 00:07:25.042 But I really first learned about it in my 20s and realized that my dad was a narcissist. 00:07:25.042 --> 00:07:29.042 And I mean, I'd always known, well, not always, but I was really coming into realizing how 00:07:29.042 --> 00:07:37.622 dysfunctional that relationship was and was having various cycles of having to put boundaries 00:07:37.622 --> 00:07:39.583 in place and trying again and trying. 00:07:39.842 --> 00:07:43.882 So that's when I first really understood what a narcissistic personality was and I started 00:07:43.882 --> 00:07:47.460 my healing from that relationship in my 20s. 00:07:47.722 --> 00:07:52.282 What I didn't know is that I was in a marriage, I'd just gotten married. 00:07:52.282 --> 00:07:54.887 And I didn't know that I'd married a man who was neurodivergent. 00:07:55.202 --> 00:07:59.127 And at the time, I mean, this was in 1997, 98. 00:07:59.642 --> 00:08:04.231 You know, autism at that point was still rain man for most of us. 00:08:04.642 --> 00:08:09.522 How we first heard about autism and so we just didn't understand this concept. 00:08:10.146 --> 00:08:16.442 And so my 19-year marriage was just very confusing and hurtful and painful and it 00:08:16.442 --> 00:08:18.311 eventually ended, but. 00:08:18.941 --> 00:08:23.831 When it ended, I had a wonderful therapist who I still call her up occasionally and say, 00:08:23.831 --> 00:08:29.831 you know, I need a top up. But she was the first one that really helped identify narcissism in my 00:08:29.831 --> 00:08:38.471 marriage as well. And so that was the first, and I remember being so surprised. And I think I was 00:08:38.471 --> 00:08:43.751 looking at your playlist on YouTube, and I saw one of your thumbnails, you know, when people 00:08:43.751 --> 00:09:01.751 question, am I the narcissist? And that just this week I had a client ask that. And of course I asked her. I remember asking her at one point, I think maybe I'm narcissistic or borderline. And I remember her saying, Jody, the fact that you're even asking that question rules you out. 00:09:01.751 --> 00:09:08.751 That's my number one answer. It's like, bless your heart if you're trying that hard to figure out the relationship that you're willing to then say, I think it's me. 00:09:09.264 --> 00:09:15.351 Yeah, so when I left my marriage, it was more, she was helping me to recognize that I was 00:09:15.351 --> 00:09:21.091 in, I was so good codependent, you know, I was so trained up in codependency from having the narc dad. 00:09:21.183 --> 00:09:26.991 And I had no idea, even though I was a therapist at that point, I still had no idea. 00:09:26.991 --> 00:09:31.491 It just, it's not something that's really taught in counseling programs, and I went 00:09:31.491 --> 00:09:34.155 to a really top rated counseling program. 00:09:34.491 --> 00:09:44.411 But so I started healing from the narcissistic traits. It was more covert type of narcissism and even you know, even in the last five, 10 years, 00:09:44.411 --> 00:09:47.851 we've really started differentiating between the different types. 00:09:47.851 --> 00:09:51.700 My dad was very malignant, overt, narcissistic. 00:09:51.851 --> 00:09:56.265 So I didn't recognize I was used to that being narcissism. 00:09:57.251 --> 00:10:00.851 And I didn't, so I didn't recognize the covert traits until my therapist helped me through 00:10:00.851 --> 00:10:03.917 that. And then it was a little bit later down the road. 00:10:04.171 --> 00:10:09.531 I had an autistic daughter so I knew about autism and that's how I ended up specializing. She's, 00:10:10.227 --> 00:10:14.251 level one. She's in college right now but boy was that that's been a journey too. 00:10:15.016 --> 00:10:19.531 So I had okay this is my definition of autism. This is my definition of narcissism, 00:10:20.319 --> 00:10:25.611 and then and I'm living this relationship with her this relationship with him and it wasn't 00:10:25.611 --> 00:10:31.291 until after my divorce that I really started seeing oh okay he also is neurodivergent. 00:10:32.202 --> 00:10:34.211 And has these narcissistic traits. 00:10:34.211 --> 00:10:35.163 And what does that mean? 00:10:35.531 --> 00:10:39.091 Yeah, and can you define just for people, when you say neurodivergent, 00:10:39.091 --> 00:10:41.851 just, and I want to jokingly say, treat me as if I know nothing, 00:10:41.851 --> 00:10:44.409 because in this area, I worry that I don't know much. 00:10:44.531 --> 00:10:45.696 So yeah, yeah. 00:10:46.251 --> 00:10:52.520 So neurodivergence, we've really come to understand is when the brain is really hardwired differently. 00:10:52.571 --> 00:10:57.624 And we know now that some of the latest research in just in the last two or three years, 00:10:58.171 --> 00:11:04.251 telling us that 80% of neurodivergent traits are genetic. Okay. So we absolutely 00:11:04.251 --> 00:11:05.807 notes. So this is basically. 00:11:06.671 --> 00:11:13.321 Some of the diagnoses that are falling under this umbrella are ADHD, autism, learning disabilities, 00:11:13.495 --> 00:11:18.545 what we used to call Asperger's, which is a level one type of autism here in the U.S. anyway. 00:11:18.978 --> 00:11:21.401 Other countries still use Asperger's as a diagnosis. 00:11:22.155 --> 00:11:25.612 Hey, why did we take that out, by the way? I'm curious. It was 2013. 00:11:25.945 --> 00:11:31.321 Okay, but why did we change that? We took it out. The American Psychiatric Association, it had to do with insurance. 00:11:31.824 --> 00:11:42.201 Insurance. So basically, insurance was covering treatment, counseling, the services for autism, 00:11:42.201 --> 00:11:47.479 even occupational therapy, speech therapy. But Asperger's was getting ruled out because 00:11:47.893 --> 00:11:52.801 a lot of children, most adults weren't being diagnosed and even now adults are not being 00:11:52.801 --> 00:11:58.761 diagnosed. But children who got diagnosed with Asperger's a lot of times, their difficulties 00:11:58.761 --> 00:12:03.321 were more in social type things, and there weren't academic problems as much. And when 00:12:03.321 --> 00:12:07.001 they went into treatment, they were just getting denied that the insurance companies couldn't. 00:12:07.833 --> 00:12:11.481 Figure out, you know, what's our treatment goal? How do we do this? So they were getting denied, 00:12:11.481 --> 00:12:16.538 and the APA, American Psychiatric Association here, went and revised the DSM so that they, 00:12:17.081 --> 00:12:22.201 could start requiring a lot of states require insurance companies to cover autism. So they 00:12:22.201 --> 00:12:28.201 rolled it into level one. Now that came with it a lot of controversy. So many people had 00:12:28.201 --> 00:12:30.501 had been diagnosed with Asperger's already. 00:12:30.501 --> 00:12:35.038 That was, it was their identity. My daughter was one. She was diagnosed when she was five. 00:12:35.621 --> 00:12:42.933 And so she still struggles, she uses autism now as her framework, the label that she uses for herself. 00:12:43.101 --> 00:12:48.595 But she still calls herself an Aspie. And so there were a lot of people that struggled with that. 00:12:48.901 --> 00:12:52.701 Well, I appreciate, I'm so grateful that you could just answer it with that clarity 00:12:52.701 --> 00:12:54.781 because I do feel like as a clinician, 00:12:54.781 --> 00:12:57.901 when that was taken away, I feel like I just started to really understand 00:12:57.901 --> 00:13:03.481 Asperger's and I had the concept of high-functioning Asperger's clients that were, they were fine 00:13:03.481 --> 00:13:04.574 taking ownership of that. 00:13:05.101 --> 00:13:08.021 And then, you know, how do I learn how to interact in the workplace? 00:13:08.021 --> 00:13:12.379 But then I felt like once I remember the first person that came in and said, I don't want to be autistic. 00:13:12.641 --> 00:13:17.069 I'm fine being, having Asperger's and it got into the whole concept around labeling and, 00:13:17.361 --> 00:13:21.541 and then as a card-carrying ADHD, and now see, look at me, I have to say ADHD person, 00:13:21.541 --> 00:13:23.857 but I have ADD, but we got rid of that. 00:13:23.941 --> 00:13:24.523 Right? 00:13:24.941 --> 00:13:33.501 Yeah. Yeah. people, especially I would say over the age of 50, really struggle with the term 00:13:33.501 --> 00:13:38.101 autism. It just doesn't resonate and even some folks in the 40s, the millennial 00:13:38.101 --> 00:13:47.701 generation, still see that differentiation between Asperger's and autism and there's a lot of, oh there's just a lot in the autistic community 00:13:47.701 --> 00:13:50.288 about whether it's a good thing, it's a bad thing. 00:13:50.819 --> 00:14:07.309 Asperger's himself, Hans Asperger's was identified as being a Nazi. And so now that that brings within a lot of a lot of negativity. So a lot of people are really up in arms about using that term at all. And I generally go with what my client, I mirror my client. I like that. Yeah. 00:14:07.309 --> 00:14:11.389 Yeah, I have to tell you, I feel very comfortable already talking with you. I have to tell you that 00:14:11.641 --> 00:14:15.125 it's funny because the reason I am also very excited of how you explain that was, 00:14:15.422 --> 00:14:19.041 I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of confabulation, confabulated memory. 00:14:19.383 --> 00:14:23.965 It's a term that's big in the narcissistic world, but basically it's that we create a new narrative 00:14:24.334 --> 00:14:27.647 to then fit the way that we see the world. So in the world of narcissism, 00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:32.669 it can't be that I was a bad person, so I've confabulated this narrative that it was you. 00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:36.909 And not only, when you really look at confabulation, it happens in real time, 00:14:36.909 --> 00:14:41.096 because the person has been gaslighting as a childhood defense mechanism their entire life. 00:14:41.474 --> 00:14:46.589 And so when you really dig into it, since that person, that is the way that their brain works, 00:14:46.589 --> 00:14:51.469 they believe their confabulation, which is why they can gaslight so well. So what's kind of 00:14:51.469 --> 00:14:57.469 funny about that is I had assumed that we got rid of the term Asperger's because that it was 00:14:57.469 --> 00:15:01.789 not a politically correct term anymore. And then I was being interviewed on a podcast a few weeks 00:15:01.789 --> 00:15:06.829 ago, and I found myself going into that narrative and I realized, oh, I am absolutely making this up, 00:15:06.829 --> 00:15:10.029 but I actually believe it because it kind of makes sense to me. You know, it's funny when 00:15:10.029 --> 00:15:13.949 you learn how memory works, you know. So confabulation, I hadn't heard that specific 00:15:13.949 --> 00:15:20.189 term. But yes, that whole I believe my narrative is so and that actually applies so much to the 00:15:20.189 --> 00:15:25.309 neurodivergent world too. Okay. And I actually saw something on I was like I said, I started 00:15:25.309 --> 00:15:29.069 scrolling through your playlist. And I'm like, this is good. This is good. I saw something you 00:15:29.069 --> 00:15:34.429 you mentioned about implicit memory, too. Yes. And so when you have the combination of implicit 00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:40.269 memory, which is those accumulation of experiences. Yeah. It's funny, I just recorded a video this 00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:48.429 morning on confirmation bias, which is what you just described, where we believe we see and 00:15:48.429 --> 00:15:56.189 perceive what we expect to perceive. And I think what you just said about that confabulated 00:15:56.189 --> 00:16:03.869 narrative and why gaslighting is so powerful, it's because it's not... 00:16:02.909 --> 00:16:06.599 It's not actually a lie. No, to them it's not. 00:16:06.789 --> 00:16:08.839 Jodi, I gave an example. It's funny now. 00:16:08.839 --> 00:16:11.959 I feel like I'm an old person saying, you know, on this TikTok thing. 00:16:11.959 --> 00:16:14.039 But I've got somebody putting some of the videos on TikTok. 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.599 And I did one that I took a screenshot. And I have a client that will show up a little bit late. 00:16:18.599 --> 00:16:21.799 And I will make a joke. He'll text me and say, I'm running five minutes late. 00:16:22.012 --> 00:16:24.599 And if he comes three minutes late, then I say he's early late. 00:16:24.599 --> 00:16:26.315 If he comes six minutes late, he's late late. 00:16:26.630 --> 00:16:29.239 And he sent me one. And I jump here on my desk. And then he shows up. 00:16:29.239 --> 00:16:31.159 And he was six minutes late. And I said, oh, you're late late. 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:32.283 And he said, no, I'm early late. 00:16:32.439 --> 00:16:37.639 And I had to put the screenshot on the TikTok video because I said, well, you said five minutes 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.719 after and he's like, no, I said 10 minutes after. And it was almost like a wild west draw of our 00:16:41.719 --> 00:16:45.499 phones. And he said, I'm going to be a few minutes late. So we were both wrong. But if. 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:51.399 You would have put a polygraph on me and because of my previous experiences, I would have sworn 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:55.879 testimony that it said five minutes late to the point where if I was a good narcissist, then I 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.399 would have said, I don't know how you did this magic on your phone where you changed it, but it 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.959 said five minutes, you know, you still stick with it. Yeah, I 00:17:03.959 --> 00:17:12.599 know what I know. I remember. And so you know, what happens with something that happens with neurodivergence is, so what you 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.599 just described is, let's talk about terms neurotypical. Yeah, 00:17:16.639 --> 00:17:19.999 neurotypical is more if you think of your our bell curve. 00:17:20.535 --> 00:17:28.019 You know, we have our bell curve, and the averages are at the top of that curve. And then the the behaviors or whatever 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:34.099 traits that are not as common or at the edges. And so, so someone who is neurotypical is going to be 00:17:34.165 --> 00:17:40.899 more at the top or in that curve, in terms of just numbers, average numbers of how we interact 00:17:40.899 --> 00:17:46.499 socially, how our brain, our memory works, those types of things. But some of the traits at the 00:17:46.499 --> 00:17:52.979 edges, for example, memory, some neurodivergent people have what's an auditory, like an auditory 00:17:52.979 --> 00:17:57.059 version of photographic memory. So we've all heard of photographic memory. It's like you look at 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.259 something. It's like a snapshot goes in your brain and you can 00:18:00.326 --> 00:18:03.699 pull up an image and read it. 00:18:02.432 --> 00:18:08.362 A lot of neurodivergent folks, not everybody, but some have this auditory memory that's like a sound 00:18:08.362 --> 00:18:16.746 bite that is locked in. So what you just described is how a direct typical memory might work where 00:18:16.908 --> 00:18:22.442 we have an interaction, we have a conversation, and then it's filtered through that lens of bias, 00:18:22.442 --> 00:18:28.362 that lens of what we're expecting, what we think, what we already believe, those implicit memories. 00:18:28.467 --> 00:18:33.962 And then that becomes our meaning. That's the meaning we take away. This is all part of actually 00:18:33.962 --> 00:18:40.362 the communication program that I do. It becomes our meaning. Then you go back and have a conversation. 00:18:41.250 --> 00:18:46.948 And that neurotypical person has an interpreted meaning, which is maybe close but not quite, 00:18:47.065 --> 00:18:50.282 like what you just described. It's, you know, you both knew it was late, 00:18:50.282 --> 00:18:54.483 which kind of late, you know, how late? 00:18:54.882 --> 00:19:01.162 Whereas a neurodivergent partner or friend or coworker may actually have a, like a, 00:19:01.162 --> 00:19:03.125 you talked about a screenshot. 00:19:03.362 --> 00:19:06.456 You take a screenshot and so you know what's written. 00:19:06.682 --> 00:19:09.643 A neurodivergent person may actually have an auditory. 00:19:10.642 --> 00:19:15.202 Memo, voice memo in their file where they can literally replay the conversation 00:19:15.202 --> 00:19:16.722 and hear exactly what was said. 00:19:16.722 --> 00:19:19.068 And then that is the truth. I mean, that is. 00:19:19.282 --> 00:19:23.327 And that is their truth. But then you filter, but then you add to it 00:19:23.442 --> 00:19:26.261 that their interpreted meaning is still gonna be, 00:19:26.642 --> 00:19:31.602 they may know the exact words that were said, but the interpretation of the words. 00:19:31.602 --> 00:19:35.562 Still through the air, what that means to them. So I give an example often of somebody, 00:19:35.562 --> 00:19:39.243 I remember a couple that the husband would get really upset when the wife said, you're abusing me. 00:19:39.962 --> 00:19:45.162 Cause she had really started to understand emotional abuse. And then we had this amazing aha moment 00:19:45.162 --> 00:19:47.522 where he had grown up with physical abuse. 00:19:47.522 --> 00:20:03.422 So when she would say, yeah, that he's like, I can't even have you express that because I don't, you know, and so, I mean, I appreciate what you're saying there, because even if the memory can even be challenged or if it's locked in, but there's still the interpretation of what the words mean or the context or absolutely. 00:20:03.422 --> 00:20:04.902 I actually had that happen to me. 00:20:04.902 --> 00:20:08.162 So I was in a date of man for a couple of years after my divorce. 00:20:08.162 --> 00:20:14.202 That was also he had autistic Asperger's, I recognized it. He wasn't so on board, so I didn't push it. 00:20:14.202 --> 00:20:18.609 But I remember one time he told me I was verbally abusive and I was just. 00:20:19.366 --> 00:20:25.856 I was mortified because I'm like, what? You know, as a trained therapist and someone who works with 00:20:25.856 --> 00:20:33.536 relationships, I know what my definition of abuse is and verbal abuse. And I was just floored. But 00:20:33.536 --> 00:20:40.816 what it came down to when we started unpackaging that is that loud animated voices were very 00:20:40.816 --> 00:20:47.136 startling from a sensory perspective. So sensory wise, neurodivergent individuals oftentimes are 00:20:47.136 --> 00:20:53.536 very overwhelmed by certain sensations, they can be underwhelmed as well, and not detect a sensation 00:20:53.536 --> 00:21:00.695 enough. But something like a loud voice can be painful. And like it can set off that, you know, 00:21:00.848 --> 00:21:05.376 or, you know, when a fire alarm goes off right beside me, I'm going to jump and be like. 00:21:06.394 --> 00:21:11.616 So my loud voice to him was like that, that's what he would have experienced it. So, 00:21:11.777 --> 00:21:14.656 as you can probably tell, just in talking to me, I'm very animated. 00:21:14.656 --> 00:21:19.384 Yeah. So even if it's excitement and expressive, it can feel overwhelming and overstimulated. 00:21:19.618 --> 00:21:24.470 Yes. And he even said that, I remember one day I was, so if it was a disagreement, 00:21:24.794 --> 00:21:29.856 that's when he felt it was verbal abuse. And I'm going through my lens of, I'm not calling you 00:21:29.856 --> 00:21:34.576 names. I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to gaslight you and all the things that, you know, 00:21:34.576 --> 00:21:39.171 I think of as abuse. I'm just disagreeing with you and I'm doing it in an animated way. 00:21:39.296 --> 00:21:43.696 Yeah. But one day I was describing something that happened at work and I was really excited about 00:21:43.696 --> 00:21:52.056 about it. And he literally said, you're scaring me. And I'm like, so yeah, it's just that lens. Yeah, how we interpret is 00:21:52.096 --> 00:21:55.024 so huge. And how we the what we take away. 00:21:55.376 --> 00:22:00.496 But I think what's interesting, and I love about that, too. I don't want to I my ADHD works in jokes only. So I want you to 00:22:00.496 --> 00:22:04.336 know, I'm filtering a lot of them. I mean, right there, I want to say, Okay, and of course, you didn't you at that 00:22:04.336 --> 00:22:07.537 point, you said, Let me show you a loud voice, because then he learns, right? 00:22:09.416 --> 00:22:17.016 I'm good with humor is a good thing. Good, but I do find it so I feel like my hope for people is to be able to self-confront 00:22:17.016 --> 00:22:23.136 So if somebody is saying that you are scaring me that was that is there an opportunity there to check in and say, okay 00:22:23.136 --> 00:22:31.496 I mean, I'm willing to take that data in but then have that healthy ego to say I'm I know I'm not so how do I How do I express? 00:22:31.536 --> 00:22:38.296 It's the check-in Check-in the ability to check in I think is one of the things that really 00:22:38.296 --> 00:22:44.696 differentiates someone who is narcissistic, and someone who is not. 00:22:44.696 --> 00:22:54.856 The capacity to check in. And this is where neurodivergence and and narcissism can have some really 00:22:53.818 --> 00:23:01.668 Complicated, overlapping, because that ability to check in is something that I refer to as theory of mind. 00:23:01.668 --> 00:23:06.668 Is that a term that you've heard? No, I don't. So tell me about it and I may confabulate it and take it for myself someday. 00:23:06.668 --> 00:23:08.383 Okay. Okay. 00:23:08.668 --> 00:23:12.668 It can also be referred to as cognitive empathy. Okay. 00:23:13.064 --> 00:23:22.668 But what it really refers to is the ability to recognize that my mind, my thoughts, my perceptions, my experience are actually mine. 00:23:22.668 --> 00:23:26.982 And they are different from someone else's. I love that, theory of mind, is that what you call it? 00:23:27.268 --> 00:23:32.468 Theory of mind, it's like a theoretical understanding that my mind is one mind. 00:23:32.468 --> 00:23:38.397 And so I oftentimes use an analogy when I'm explaining this to my client of a mountain, 00:23:38.548 --> 00:23:44.131 and I'll say, okay, let's say you and your partner are standing on opposite sides of a mountain, 00:23:44.268 --> 00:23:49.548 and this partner is seeing lush, green waterfalls, and this partner on the other side 00:23:49.548 --> 00:23:51.342 is seeing rocky and barren, 00:23:51.588 --> 00:23:57.563 And then when I ask you to describe the mountain, you're gonna give me totally different descriptions, but who's right? 00:23:58.288 --> 00:24:01.668 And I've had so many of my neurodivergent clients have this light bulb go off and they're like, 00:24:02.188 --> 00:24:07.123 oh, because to them, their partner has been wrong on all these things. 00:24:07.908 --> 00:24:12.461 And it's like, okay, your partner's not wrong, but your partner has a different perspective. 00:24:12.588 --> 00:24:18.610 Now, now that you take that, some of my neurodivergent folks are able to go, OK. 00:24:19.537 --> 00:24:24.827 I can recognize this and I can I can check I can realize it was it's like a light bulb. I can 00:24:24.827 --> 00:24:31.947 realize that I need to check in with me to really ask myself what is it that I'm perceiving and why 00:24:31.947 --> 00:24:38.667 and and do that self self-confrontation or yeah yeah yeah whereas some of them struggle with that 00:24:38.667 --> 00:24:44.187 some of them and sometimes it's topic specific or it's person specific sometimes and we all that way 00:24:44.187 --> 00:24:51.828 Sometimes we're a lot better at it in one setting than we are another, but the narcissist absolutely can't. 00:24:52.008 --> 00:24:57.707 Exactly. It's funny when you were just saying that, I was about to say, oh, I have to bring up though, but actually the narcissist can't, but that's exactly where you're going. 00:24:57.707 --> 00:25:10.707 Because I do find that when I started noticing the similarities, because I would notice that some of my, because I work so much in that population of emotional immaturity and narcissism, but then the man, the autistic person, there's always just a little bit of, 00:25:10.707 --> 00:25:18.307 but they were willing to confront here or they were willing to sit with this discomfort here or go on a journey here, but then it still just didn't feel. 00:25:19.147 --> 00:25:23.947 Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so with neurodivergence, there's oftentimes disbelief. 00:25:24.074 --> 00:25:26.747 And yes, you know, is that possible? 00:25:27.081 --> 00:25:31.387 But intrigue, because they also know that this has been a theme in their lives 00:25:31.387 --> 00:25:35.627 and they're not they don't love the fact that they're constantly struggling 00:25:35.907 --> 00:25:37.987 with other people and with these interactions. 00:25:37.987 --> 00:25:45.247 And so usually, my neurodivergent folks are intrigued, they may really struggle with implementing the changes. 00:25:45.247 --> 00:25:50.327 And so that's where we, you know, really, we really have to coach them through growing 00:25:50.327 --> 00:25:55.587 up that basically exercising that muscle of the brain, teaching you how to stop and reflect 00:25:55.587 --> 00:26:02.307 how to stop and self reflect, how to recognize how to remember that your partner's perspective is different. 00:26:02.955 --> 00:26:05.125 But some struggle with it a lot more than others. 00:26:05.764 --> 00:26:13.814 But there's still that intrigue and that interest. I like the word intrigue and Jodi, I talk so often about we don't like to sit with discomfort and what do we do with that discomfort? 00:26:13.814 --> 00:26:16.614 And I feel like the narcissist just immediately sheds it. 00:26:16.614 --> 00:26:22.571 Do you feel like the neurodivergent person is equipped to sit with that discomfort or what's that like for them? 00:26:22.868 --> 00:26:26.014 It really depends on the individual and it depends on the situation. 00:26:26.014 --> 00:26:29.914 And this is where the partnership dynamics really come into play. 00:26:29.914 --> 00:26:36.734 Because I see so, I mean, just all the time, the pattern is that neurodivergent individuals 00:26:36.734 --> 00:26:39.134 pair up with codependent, just like narcissistic. 00:26:39.134 --> 00:26:43.714 And narcissistic pair, it's like a real common pairing. Human magnet syndrome. 00:26:43.714 --> 00:26:47.254 I don't know if you are familiar with that concept from Ross Rosenberg, but I love that human magnet 00:26:47.254 --> 00:26:49.515 and they say it's breakup resistant in a sense. 00:26:49.614 --> 00:26:57.714 Yeah, it's so true. And so my codependent neurotypical partners have come from their own abusive backgrounds, 00:26:57.714 --> 00:27:05.154 which has made them, So they're just inherently, they're hardwired to defer and take care and meet the needs 00:27:05.154 --> 00:27:07.096 of others and put themselves last. 00:27:07.314 --> 00:27:12.874 And then, but what that as you know, that results in eventually resentment and anger 00:27:12.874 --> 00:27:15.074 and bitterness and pain and hurt. 00:27:15.074 --> 00:27:20.474 And so depending on the nature of the relationship, I tell people, do you have some people, some 00:27:20.474 --> 00:27:25.767 couples have the boxing gloves on and they're in the boxing ring, whereas others are still in a stage of. 00:27:26.343 --> 00:27:29.033 We love each other, we care, and we want to figure this out. 00:27:29.033 --> 00:27:35.552 And it's harder when couples are in that boxing ring and there's that contempt and antagonism. 00:27:36.012 --> 00:27:42.799 It's harder for the neurodivergent partner to pause and self-reflect because it's really vulnerable. 00:27:43.231 --> 00:27:47.353 Because when you, and it's harder for both partners. Because when you pause and say, 00:27:47.353 --> 00:27:51.853 okay, let me look at what I'm doing here, then you're opening yourself up for the other person to go, 00:27:51.853 --> 00:27:53.881 yeah, you sure are. 00:27:54.013 --> 00:27:59.436 And what can that overwhelming feeling be even bigger than for that to neurodivergent person? 00:27:59.625 --> 00:28:06.093 Okay. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Because the skills to well to emotionally regulate. 00:28:06.093 --> 00:28:11.213 Yeah. We're talking about emotional immaturity. Yeah. So many neurodivergent folks are still 00:28:11.213 --> 00:28:17.373 very stuck in like the middle school and maturity level, which is another reason why they can. 00:28:18.013 --> 00:28:21.373 That middle school, those middle school years, that's the narcissistic years. You know, 00:28:21.373 --> 00:28:25.213 That's the years that all the middle schools are a little narcissist. All the middle schoolers. Yes, 00:28:25.213 --> 00:28:31.933 they are. And then some go ahead and mature and pull out of that. But a lot of my neurodivergent 00:28:31.933 --> 00:28:38.893 folks, because they had so much difficulty with social and relational interactions that they got 00:28:38.893 --> 00:28:43.453 stuck there. Okay. And so having that ability to emotionally regulate, like you're saying, 00:28:43.453 --> 00:28:47.773 is it overwhelming to them? Yes. Because you think about what what a middle schooler does. 00:28:47.773 --> 00:28:54.653 My son's 17 so thank goodness we've we've pulled out of it. Yeah. But you know in his 14, 13, 14 00:28:54.653 --> 00:29:02.733 year old days, oh my goodness you know he when he needed to reflect on his behavior or something 00:29:02.733 --> 00:29:06.573 that he said or done, he just became this little. 00:29:07.412 --> 00:29:13.038 Bully that couldn't handle it. And that's what I see oftentimes in the neurodivergence. But 00:29:13.398 --> 00:29:18.862 the thing is, is they can learn how. It's another muscle that can be exercised. 00:29:18.862 --> 00:29:22.702 It's funny because I talk, I call it the let's go ride bikes. And I talk about the emotionally 00:29:22.702 --> 00:29:27.182 mature, they can yell and scream and curse you out. And that does alleviate their discomfort, 00:29:27.182 --> 00:29:31.022 but then they feel better. So then five minutes later, do you want to go ride bikes? And for the 00:29:31.022 --> 00:29:34.702 adults, it's where, what do you want to go to eat? And so I like what you're saying, because I feel 00:29:34.702 --> 00:29:38.569 I feel like it sounds like that can be a similar thing with the neurodivergent and the narcissist, 00:29:38.662 --> 00:29:39.559 but you're saying though, 00:29:39.782 --> 00:29:44.906 the neurodivergent can learn where the narcissist is like, well, no, but they did, they said all these things. 00:29:45.022 --> 00:29:45.896 So what was I supposed to do? 00:29:46.222 --> 00:29:50.452 And now they can't go to dinner with me. Like, why can't they get over it? 00:29:50.802 --> 00:29:54.142 So what's happening? Yeah, yeah. What you just described is something 00:29:54.142 --> 00:29:56.902 that's really crazy making for neurotypical partners 00:29:56.902 --> 00:30:02.062 of neurodivergence, because they will, like you said, they'll get that energy out. 00:30:02.062 --> 00:30:09.342 They'll expel it. They feel better. withdraw for a little while. It's either outward or they'll withdraw. But then, like you said, 00:30:09.342 --> 00:30:14.142 it's in the world that I'm, the client world that I work in, it's called like a reset. 00:30:14.142 --> 00:30:18.222 They come back and it's like nothing ever happened. And they're fine. And then the 00:30:18.222 --> 00:30:24.489 neurotypical partners left like, I'm still reeling over this interaction we just had. I'm still... 00:30:24.849 --> 00:30:28.333 They just called me a whatever word. I mean, I can't, I can't undo that, right? 00:30:28.462 --> 00:30:33.102 I can't just move on from that. Yeah, you call me names, you mischaracterized me. 00:30:33.770 --> 00:30:38.020 I can't just, but then the neurodivergent oftentimes is like, well, it's in the past. 00:30:38.128 --> 00:30:42.782 Yep. Let's just move on. It's in the past and neurotypical partners are like. 00:30:43.655 --> 00:30:50.865 I can't do that. That's that emotional immaturity. But again, the difference between the narcissist 00:30:50.865 --> 00:30:57.505 and the neurodivergent is when it's pointed out to the neurodivergent, there can be resistance, 00:30:57.505 --> 00:31:02.065 but especially when it's somebody like me or somebody that's not the partner that they're 00:31:02.065 --> 00:31:10.225 also feeling kind of vulnerable to, there's that willingness to go, okay, I can see that. 00:31:11.157 --> 00:31:14.945 Whereas, you know, with the narcissist, that ego is so fragile. 00:31:14.945 --> 00:31:18.825 There's just no way that they're able to do that. 00:31:18.825 --> 00:31:21.425 And as a matter of fact, one of the patterns that I see the most, 00:31:21.425 --> 00:31:26.985 and I've had it happen twice this week with clients, because so many people come to me trying to figure out, is this neurodivergence, 00:31:26.985 --> 00:31:30.782 is this narcissism? And sometimes it's both, and that's a really bad combination. 00:31:30.872 --> 00:31:39.385 But the pattern that I see, and I know you've seen it, if you worked with narcissists, is they'll come in for help, you know, 00:31:39.385 --> 00:31:44.665 with therapy, I do coaching now, they'll come in for help, but it's always about their partner. 00:31:44.665 --> 00:31:48.210 It's always about fixing their partner. Yeah, I feel so validated right now. 00:31:48.305 --> 00:31:52.425 Because, yeah, right? The pathologically kind person comes in and like, what can I do? 00:31:52.425 --> 00:31:53.729 No, it's me, it's my fault. 00:31:53.825 --> 00:31:57.996 I'm the narcissist. And then the other person's like, I, yeah, let me tell you what she did today. 00:31:58.125 --> 00:32:02.705 Like, then you'll, you can help her. And then, yeah, the covert narcissists, 00:32:02.705 --> 00:32:07.705 which are much less, much less outwardly grandiose 00:32:07.785 --> 00:32:15.425 and kind of the in-your-face bullies, They are nice guys, you have a podcast about Mr. Nice Guy, which is a lot of my neurodivergents 00:32:15.425 --> 00:32:17.705 are those nice guys. 00:32:18.413 --> 00:32:25.705 But every time, it's about how I'm being victimized by this relationship. 00:32:26.083 --> 00:32:29.585 And it's so when I go to challenge them, and I have a there was a family I've been working 00:32:29.585 --> 00:32:32.425 a couple and I've been working with for a while. 00:32:32.425 --> 00:32:36.905 And I've been trying to really figure out because those are the hardest ones to figure 00:32:36.905 --> 00:32:44.816 out if it's, it's, if there is neurodivergence there, and there is with this man, he's absolutely on the spectrum. 00:32:45.825 --> 00:32:50.865 But I kept thinking I was seeing some covert narcissism too. 00:32:51.154 --> 00:32:56.285 And so just this week, I really challenged him and said, look, I know every time we talk, 00:32:56.285 --> 00:32:58.905 you're telling me how overwhelmed you are. 00:32:58.905 --> 00:33:03.757 And yes, a lot of that is autism. But there are things you're bringing to this too. 00:33:03.905 --> 00:33:08.375 And we need to look at what you're bringing to it, because that's where your power empowerment is. 00:33:08.525 --> 00:33:12.245 That's when you look at you, you can only look at you. Absolutely. 00:33:12.245 --> 00:33:16.685 He sent me a text the next day cancelling, he said, I'm not going to, I've decided not 00:33:16.685 --> 00:33:17.685 to work with you anymore. 00:33:18.035 --> 00:33:25.845 I've been working with this couple for a year. And I honestly, it made me sad, but I wasn't surprised because it's the pattern. 00:33:25.845 --> 00:33:31.965 And his wife, I said, okay, I and I'd been talking to her about what I thought this might 00:33:31.965 --> 00:33:35.805 be the case. And I said, Well, I've got some clarity now, because that's. 00:33:36.597 --> 00:33:43.647 I would say 95% of the time that's the pattern. The other pattern is either I become the enemy 00:33:43.647 --> 00:33:49.487 then and they go on the attack with me or there's just still the consistent, they may still think 00:33:49.487 --> 00:33:54.367 they can use me in some way to get to their partner. Well, Jodi, can I ask you too, and I 00:33:54.367 --> 00:33:57.887 feel bad because I started this way. Tell me about your journey and now we went in a completely 00:33:57.887 --> 00:34:01.647 different direction, but it is guaranteeing that you'll have to come back on again. I'm so enjoying 00:34:01.647 --> 00:34:06.647 Right. So when, when you do have that, how do you coach that? 00:34:06.647 --> 00:34:18.647 Cause I like what you're saying is that the person will have that willingness to self-confront and that's where I, you know, yeah, that's where I get my data is that that whole go ride bikes theory is that the narcissist wants to get rid of that discomfort. 00:34:18.899 --> 00:34:25.480 And if you can get them to appear to self-confront, you know, I call that one the, okay, I'll never do it again until I do it again. 00:34:25.647 --> 00:34:29.540 Because it's like, in that moment, they do, they are like, okay, yeah, it does feel good. 00:34:29.627 --> 00:34:32.547 I get the validation from saying, I'll never do it again, and I get it. 00:34:32.747 --> 00:34:37.707 But then I think everybody in the room sees that narcissistic apology of like, okay, fine. 00:34:37.707 --> 00:34:43.178 Okay, maybe I did do that, but quite frankly, you made me, and then, but I won't do it again. 00:34:43.407 --> 00:34:47.267 So then it almost breaks my heart because I realized so much of the world I'm working in 00:34:47.267 --> 00:34:50.083 is wrecking what you said, like I'm getting more clarity, 00:34:50.207 --> 00:34:54.207 and I put all this content out there, and then the more pathologically kind person 00:34:54.207 --> 00:34:55.407 is starting to see the patterns, 00:34:55.407 --> 00:35:00.527 feel heard and seen, but it's almost like this rule out of, okay, I need to stop putting myself 00:35:00.527 --> 00:35:04.767 out there because in the world of narcissism, then it's just gets used against me and I'm 00:35:04.767 --> 00:35:09.967 handing them weapons to use against me. How do you coach through that awareness? Do you have 00:35:09.967 --> 00:35:14.527 the pathologically kind person continue to show up and be vulnerable? Or do you start working more 00:35:14.527 --> 00:35:18.278 with that neurodivergent person and really trying to get them to self-confront. 00:35:19.151 --> 00:35:25.436 So if I recognize narcissism and I'm confident it's narcissism, I absolutely do not continue to 00:35:25.436 --> 00:35:31.655 work with the partner to be vulnerable. I think that that would be doing them harm. So I start, 00:35:31.737 --> 00:35:36.636 what I, if I know there's narcissism, I don't ever tell anybody to leave a relationship because it's 00:35:36.636 --> 00:35:40.072 such a complicated decision. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 00:35:40.352 --> 00:35:46.716 But I start working with them to recognize, to figure out how they're going to set boundaries, 00:35:46.716 --> 00:35:51.996 how they're going to do it safely. And I just, I become a reflection. I tell them, 00:35:51.996 --> 00:35:57.916 this is what I'm seeing. This is what's there. This is how it's going to be. And I start working 00:35:57.916 --> 00:36:04.226 on that element of hope because so many of that, so many of those partners are still hoping. And I 00:36:04.396 --> 00:36:09.516 start working on that with them and say, look, we need to put hope away and we need to look at what 00:36:09.516 --> 00:36:14.716 is, and this is what is. And you choose it. You have a choice to be in this relationship, in this 00:36:14.716 --> 00:36:18.236 marriage, you have that choice, but you need to really know what you're choosing. 00:36:18.521 --> 00:36:24.556 Yeah, this is so that's where I start working with them. When there is not narcissism, yeah, 00:36:24.556 --> 00:36:29.036 maybe there, there's some emotional immaturity that really feels like narcissism. And it can, 00:36:29.036 --> 00:36:34.316 there can involve gaslighting. I start working with both of them. And one of the things I do 00:36:34.316 --> 00:36:41.116 with the neurotypical partner is working on the codependency and to stop taking care of the other 00:36:41.116 --> 00:36:43.754 the other's needs at their own expense 00:36:43.876 --> 00:36:48.166 to start setting boundaries, to learn what that means and what that looks like. 00:36:48.416 --> 00:36:53.236 And so I work with them jointly. One, we start working on self-awareness, 00:36:53.236 --> 00:36:57.916 we start working on emotional regulation, the neurodivergent partner, and the other partner. 00:36:57.916 --> 00:37:02.038 I actually have had several neurotypical partners say to me, 00:37:02.116 --> 00:37:13.796 I had no idea how much work I was gonna have to do here Because they come in really recognizing, well, both partners recognize that the other one's 00:37:13.796 --> 00:37:14.796 the problem. 00:37:14.966 --> 00:37:19.596 Yeah. But they do, the neurotypical partner, the codependent one really does see a lot of the 00:37:19.596 --> 00:37:23.202 dysfunction in their neurodivergent or narcissistic partner. 00:37:24.116 --> 00:37:29.796 But it's not victim blaming. I don't victim blame them and say, well, you know, you did this to yourself, but I start 00:37:29.796 --> 00:37:36.156 working with them to see how their own, what they've brought with them is contributing to the problem. 00:37:36.156 --> 00:37:41.036 To just speak to, we talked about implicit memories. I actually have in my communication 00:37:41.036 --> 00:37:46.401 model, I walk them through four stages of an interaction. And in the first stage is 00:37:46.789 --> 00:37:47.824 What's in your backpack? 00:37:48.382 --> 00:37:54.152 And so I have this analogy of the backpack that is it's strapped to our back and we wear it 00:37:54.152 --> 00:38:00.632 throughout life and everything in there is what makes us who we are. So it's all of those implicit 00:38:00.632 --> 00:38:05.352 memories, the experiences that we've had, the situations, the environments, the family we grew 00:38:05.352 --> 00:38:11.482 up with. But it's also so those have formed our beliefs and our values and our goals and our fears 00:38:11.662 --> 00:38:17.540 all that's in there. But it's also our DNA and our genetics and everything that's in there, 00:38:17.801 --> 00:38:23.112 our hopes, our dreams. So I teach people to check in with themselves and to start looking in your 00:38:23.112 --> 00:38:30.312 backpack. What was in there in that conversation? You know, that conversation that went south. 00:38:31.071 --> 00:38:34.952 What did you each have in your backpack? And sometimes that's even your neurology, 00:38:34.952 --> 00:38:38.472 you know, the way your brain's wired, your emotional maturity, all of that. 00:38:39.173 --> 00:38:43.112 And so I work with them both on self-awareness. A really long answer to your question. 00:38:43.112 --> 00:38:46.872 No, it's a good answer too, because I like where you went with that. And I think maybe 00:38:46.872 --> 00:38:53.232 maybe even what I was looking for is a unicorn because I want the answer of, if it is narcissism, 00:38:53.232 --> 00:38:56.352 I know the narcissism one, like then I'm really working with that awareness P, 00:38:56.352 --> 00:38:59.527 the pathologically kind, but if it is autism, 00:38:59.632 --> 00:39:03.569 and then we're kind of saying, okay, then they're willing to do the work, 00:39:03.672 --> 00:39:05.152 what does that look like for you? 00:39:05.152 --> 00:39:09.312 I mean, is it still kind of what you're talking about here? Or I think that's why I realized 00:39:09.312 --> 00:39:14.112 that maybe I'm asking a question that is just, I think I'm wanting the, oh, it's really easy. 00:39:14.112 --> 00:39:20.547 You just, it's one thing. Because that's the part where I know I don't know enough about the neurodivergent. 00:39:21.032 --> 00:39:24.392 And so there, I think I am looking, that's so funny, I'm probably like what your clients 00:39:24.392 --> 00:39:27.912 are. Well, just tell me the thing that I can say to them once I realize they're neurodivergent 00:39:27.912 --> 00:39:28.883 that then makes it all better. 00:39:29.270 --> 00:39:40.352 Right? So, no, it's not easy. It's literally a, it's a reinvention of the couple, but it involves completely coming, 00:39:40.352 --> 00:39:43.260 there's an educational component to it. 00:39:43.512 --> 00:39:49.432 It involves an awareness of who I am and who I am relative to you. 00:39:50.335 --> 00:39:55.706 In these relationships, most people have been interacting and relating to their partner based 00:39:55.706 --> 00:40:02.266 on that projection of who, of their own, what they want in a partner, who they believe their 00:40:02.266 --> 00:40:06.266 partner is, and what they even want from a relationship. So we start, we really, we back 00:40:06.266 --> 00:40:13.948 it up and go, okay, who are you? Who am I? Because I, and I tell them, you can't choose 00:40:14.165 --> 00:40:17.786 to stay in this relationship or leave it until you know what you're choosing. 00:40:17.786 --> 00:40:18.106 Yeah. 00:40:18.251 --> 00:40:22.986 And so you have to know yourself first. So we start there. And so for a lot of adults, 00:40:22.986 --> 00:40:27.173 especially neurodivergence is a new thing. That's something that makes sense. 00:40:27.353 --> 00:40:33.066 The most adults over the age of 40 were never diagnosed as a child. And so all this, you know, 00:40:33.066 --> 00:40:37.626 you talk about the being out there, putting your podcasts out there, the information's important 00:40:37.626 --> 00:40:43.146 because the therapists are not trained in this. There's there aren't people out there, professionals 00:40:43.146 --> 00:40:50.506 who really know how to help. So, we start with the education piece and with an acceptance that. 00:40:51.371 --> 00:40:56.906 You're not wrong for being who you are. I'm not wrong for being who I am, but this is really who 00:40:56.906 --> 00:41:03.226 we are. And I actually do a comp, I do this relationship evaluation for some couples who 00:41:03.226 --> 00:41:07.866 want to do it, where I put the, I do testing on both of them. It's the coolest thing, actually. 00:41:07.866 --> 00:41:12.877 When we think about neurodiversity assessment, we think somebody goes gets tested for autism. 00:41:13.586 --> 00:41:22.346 I test them both. And we look at neurodivergence and dysfunction and emotional intelligence and conflict styles. 00:41:22.346 --> 00:41:26.984 And then we look at the data side by side to see, well, this is who you are and this is who I am. 00:41:27.406 --> 00:41:30.326 And when they look and they see how different they are from each other, it's like, 00:41:30.326 --> 00:41:32.232 it's like, you know, the love languages quizzes. 00:41:33.146 --> 00:41:36.967 It's so helpful to see all that. because I do feel like, and real quick, 00:41:37.066 --> 00:41:40.846 before I forget this train of thought, are you familiar with the welcome to Holland poem 00:41:40.846 --> 00:41:42.027 about growing up with a, 00:41:42.546 --> 00:41:45.555 okay, this is, I did an episode early on in the narcissism podcast, 00:41:45.666 --> 00:41:48.226 and it's about having a special needs child. 00:41:48.226 --> 00:41:51.746 And somebody says that you're getting on a plane and your whole life you dreamt of going, 00:41:51.746 --> 00:41:54.466 I think like to Hawaii, and you've got your beach clothes, 00:41:54.466 --> 00:41:55.946 and then you get off and you're in Holland 00:41:55.946 --> 00:41:59.006 and there's windmills and wooden shoes, and you didn't pack for Holland. 00:41:59.006 --> 00:42:03.911 And so I talked about that almost in this concept of, you know, you always thought this would be your relationship 00:42:04.266 --> 00:42:05.346 that it would be in Maui. 00:42:05.346 --> 00:42:09.268 But then I did that episode just to kind of say, hey, you're in Holland, 00:42:09.366 --> 00:42:13.426 but I feel like almost, you know, with the neurodivergent is with narcissism, 00:42:13.426 --> 00:42:16.280 somebody saying, well, I still want Maui. 00:42:16.406 --> 00:42:21.306 So I think I'm gonna exit. And so is the neurodivergent and neurotypical relationship 00:42:21.306 --> 00:42:25.472 is almost like trying to get to that acceptance of, well, we're in Holland. We're in Holland. 00:42:25.786 --> 00:42:29.626 Get the wooden shoes and yeah. Yeah, because a lot of people are still wearing 00:42:29.626 --> 00:42:34.106 their tank tops and their shorts and going, it's so cold here. 00:42:34.106 --> 00:42:38.066 And you're like, yeah, it is. And really being upset because it's so cold. 00:42:38.273 --> 00:42:38.534 And it's like. 00:42:39.092 --> 00:42:44.862 Yeah. If you want to stay in Holland, it's going to be cold, you know, but there's also beautiful 00:42:44.862 --> 00:42:50.302 mountains and snow. There's some beauty here too. And I think that's the other thing that for my, 00:42:50.444 --> 00:42:53.811 my neurodiverse couples where somebody's neurodivergent, somebody's not. And sometimes 00:42:53.982 --> 00:42:58.142 they both have neurodivergences. I see a lot of ADHD paired with autism. 00:42:58.142 --> 00:43:01.502 Well, and yeah, and I know we're going to run out of time, but we'll, maybe that's another one for 00:43:01.502 --> 00:43:06.462 another day too, but I I'm very open about my ADD. And so I've been told, well, you know, 00:43:06.462 --> 00:43:11.262 they're putting it on the autism spectrum as if I'm going to go, what? And it's like, of course, 00:43:11.262 --> 00:43:15.742 it makes sense when you talk about it from a, it's what neurodivergent is. And so I love that 00:43:15.742 --> 00:43:21.691 we're down and demystifying that. Cause it's part of those brain differences. I will tell you 00:43:21.988 --> 00:43:27.662 that something that's made me go, I'm not sure how I feel about that is a lot. Some people are 00:43:27.662 --> 00:43:32.782 also putting personality disorders like narcissism on and labeling it as neurodivergent. And I'm like, 00:43:32.782 --> 00:43:41.460 How dare they? Nope. I can't. And I guess I get it. Literal sense. Right. It is a brain difference. 00:43:41.730 --> 00:43:47.502 But for me, I guess it's more of a developmental difference because something happened along the 00:43:47.502 --> 00:43:53.342 way in developmentally as the personality developed and the ability to interact and engage. 00:43:54.462 --> 00:43:58.462 Something happened along the way. We do know with narcissism, there's a genetic component too. 00:43:58.462 --> 00:44:03.022 Same with neurodivergence, you know, we've always said, or I, not always, but there's 00:44:03.022 --> 00:44:06.422 a thing that genetics load the gun, environment pulls the trigger. 00:44:06.422 --> 00:44:13.103 So it's, and I think it's similar with narcissism. So in that very literal sense, I guess. 00:44:13.715 --> 00:44:17.965 Something like narcissism is a neurodivergence, but I still really have a hard time. 00:44:19.085 --> 00:44:20.710 And I'm not sure I'm ever going to be able. 00:44:20.925 --> 00:44:25.325 No, and it's interesting because there's, and so I have this amazing private women's Facebook group 00:44:25.325 --> 00:44:28.685 for women that are in emotionally immature relationships with fill in the blank could 00:44:28.685 --> 00:44:33.645 be their spouse, their parent, their adult child, their religious institution, their boss, 00:44:33.645 --> 00:44:39.805 you name it. And so there's a people will bring up that ADHD and narcissism concept. 00:44:39.805 --> 00:44:43.525 And I completely can understand as, because I started the whole thing, 00:44:43.525 --> 00:44:47.845 waking up to narcissism was very intentional of waking up to my own narcissistic traits and tendencies 00:44:47.845 --> 00:44:49.715 or the narcissism in your relationship. 00:44:49.845 --> 00:44:54.085 And that's where I made this intentional move to call it emotional immaturity pretty early on 00:44:54.085 --> 00:44:55.495 because that's more palatable. 00:44:55.685 --> 00:45:00.446 But I do feel like you can see that ADHD is that, talk about not wanting to sit with discomfort. 00:45:01.175 --> 00:45:08.765 And being very impulsive and then dopamine driven that it lends itself to things like gaslighting. And I, you know. 00:45:09.106 --> 00:45:12.842 Yeah, yeah. And I think the, you said it makes it more powerful. 00:45:13.025 --> 00:45:16.985 I think that is important in the work that we do because so many words are just like, 00:45:16.985 --> 00:45:19.063 oh, I can't handle that word. 00:45:19.265 --> 00:45:26.687 Something that is a common thread, I think that's an important thing to pay attention to is capacity. 00:45:26.865 --> 00:45:34.105 And so, so basically I say that the three pillars of what's required to make a relationship work 00:45:34.384 --> 00:45:39.745 is capacity, willingness, and motivation on each partner's part. 00:45:39.745 --> 00:45:42.785 You know, willingness and motivation are somewhat different. 00:45:42.785 --> 00:45:45.745 They sound similar, but you can be willing but not quite motivated. 00:45:45.745 --> 00:45:49.145 And I always use the analogy of New Year's Eve and gym memberships. 00:45:50.285 --> 00:45:53.665 A lot of people who are willing to go to the gym, but- That is not motivated. 00:45:53.665 --> 00:45:54.874 They're not motivated. 00:45:55.225 --> 00:45:58.654 But then capacity is huge. 00:45:59.185 --> 00:46:06.185 And in that regard, some neurodivergent folks www.circlelineartschool.com 00:46:05.001 --> 00:46:09.531 Quite literally don't have the capacity reasons and 00:46:09.531 --> 00:46:15.171 Narcissus we know don't have the capacity. So with neurodivergence sometimes it just depends on, 00:46:16.291 --> 00:46:23.051 Neurologically how locked in are they to that inability with theory of Mike and how? 00:46:23.811 --> 00:46:26.399 Impossible you can they grow that muscle, right? 00:46:27.281 --> 00:46:33.322 Some can't and so we have to look at that. And so I would say that's a common thread. That is I, 00:46:34.033 --> 00:46:36.914 I can actually swallow that. I can stomach that. 00:46:37.175 --> 00:46:43.651 In terms of narcissistic and narcissistic narcissism and neurodivergence having similarities 00:46:43.651 --> 00:46:47.825 because when we look at some, just don't have the capacity. 00:46:48.531 --> 00:46:52.425 Which they don't, and that's a very important thing to look at is the capacity there. 00:46:52.551 --> 00:46:54.810 With narcissists, I've just never seen it. 00:46:55.091 --> 00:46:57.991 And with neurodivergence, it really depends on the individual 00:46:57.991 --> 00:46:59.744 and everything else that's in their backpack. 00:47:00.211 --> 00:47:05.091 And it's so powerful, too. I do some work with the Amen Clinic and they do the brain scans. 00:47:05.091 --> 00:47:08.931 And I had someone recently get one and they they identified an area 00:47:09.214 --> 00:47:12.891 of it's like behind one of the back of the brain where that they were saying 00:47:12.891 --> 00:47:16.891 that should have not been getting as much blood now as an adult. 00:47:16.891 --> 00:47:21.211 And then another area that's related to empathy that wasn't getting much blood flow at all. 00:47:21.211 --> 00:47:23.251 And so you look at that and it's like literally a brain thing. 00:47:23.251 --> 00:47:27.731 But then here's a person that that they do have the willingness and the motivation. 00:47:27.849 --> 00:47:31.371 And so then that's, you know, so now they want to learn. Can we teach the brain? 00:47:31.371 --> 00:47:37.131 Right, right. And you know, you're really talking my language now, because before in very, very early in my 00:47:37.131 --> 00:47:41.291 career, I specialized in cognitive rehab with people who had brain injuries. 00:47:41.433 --> 00:47:43.691 Oh, interesting. And so acquired and traumatic brain injury. 00:47:43.691 --> 00:47:51.611 So I saw personality changes and all sorts of limitations from a brain injury. 00:47:51.611 --> 00:47:58.771 But I also saw how the brain had the ability to, I used to use the analogy of a bridge being 00:47:58.891 --> 00:48:04.491 washed out after a hurricane. We were, you know, and then it takes a little time. We may not rebuild 00:48:04.491 --> 00:48:08.491 that bridge, but we can build another route. And that's what happens. That's what happens with brain 00:48:08.491 --> 00:48:13.131 injuries. And that's why we really understand concussion protocol now is that we've got to 00:48:13.131 --> 00:48:18.838 really power down and let the brain recover and heal. So that capacity, when you look at something 00:48:19.072 --> 00:48:24.171 that's more neurodevelopmental and you've got an area of the brain that's underdeveloped. 00:48:25.157 --> 00:48:28.967 Is the capacity there for some people to teach, you know, to rewire the brain, 00:48:28.967 --> 00:48:31.081 get the brain to learn and grow. 00:48:31.647 --> 00:48:34.487 But then you add the layer of willingness and motivation. That's huge. 00:48:34.487 --> 00:48:39.087 I like that a lot because that's where I've now, you know, I hate to be through a party pooper on it, 00:48:39.087 --> 00:48:41.007 but then the more you learn about confabulation, 00:48:41.865 --> 00:48:45.327 is what it feels like to be them or their implicit memory based off of their residue 00:48:45.327 --> 00:48:48.158 of lived experience of it can't be them because they never saw it modeled. 00:48:48.527 --> 00:48:52.047 They don't want to sit with any discomfort. Yeah, and not even only not motivated. 00:48:53.073 --> 00:48:56.746 But that confabulation happens in real time. So then if you're even trying to get somebody to say, 00:48:57.327 --> 00:49:02.796 look, here's the brain scan and you can do this, they're like, that's not even a problem, you know, right? 00:49:03.047 --> 00:49:07.047 Yes, yes, so the motivation's not there. And that would be a key difference 00:49:07.047 --> 00:49:12.967 between neurodivergence and narcissism because the neurodivergent individual is very aware 00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:14.847 that there have been problems. 00:49:14.847 --> 00:49:18.289 They're very aware they've been different from a very young age. 00:49:18.887 --> 00:49:21.347 They're very aware that something's different about themselves. 00:49:21.347 --> 00:49:26.067 Say they feel like an alien in a human body, that whole Superman analogy resonates with 00:49:26.067 --> 00:49:29.145 people and I look like a human being but and even have some superpowers. 00:49:29.507 --> 00:49:33.907 And that's some of those, you know, things, but that awareness is there that there's something 00:49:33.907 --> 00:49:38.796 about me that's different that other people don't get or don't like. 00:49:39.067 --> 00:49:44.507 And so that depending on when they learn about their neurodivergence and everything else 00:49:44.507 --> 00:49:50.987 that's in their backpack, they are more likely to have that motivation to figure it out and 00:49:50.987 --> 00:49:55.347 to understand it where this probably should be a whole other episode, but where it gets 00:49:55.347 --> 00:50:00.347 really complicated is when you have a combination of neurodivergence and narcissism. 00:50:00.347 --> 00:50:03.129 And there are lots of different reasons why that happens. 00:50:03.387 --> 00:50:10.867 We're still learning about why that happens. I've actually seen clients who were neurodivergent who had a narcissistic parent and it's a learned 00:50:10.867 --> 00:50:15.255 Absolutely. It was modeled, right? That's all they know that they, yeah, that's so wild. 00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:21.947 Yeah. And so is it true narcissism or is it just a script? my NeuroDivergent folks. 00:50:20.638 --> 00:50:36.302 Their way of interacting is by scripting. They study people, they learn how to, in this situation, this, this, this. And we all do it, but it's vicarious. For neurotypicals, it's kind of happening in the background. Whereas neurodivergent folks, it's intentionally, it's very intentional. 00:50:36.572 --> 00:50:49.329 And so when they realize, I had one guy realize that he had been very abusive in a narcissistic way. And he was absolutely devastated when he realized how much harm he had done his wife. But then he was motivated. 00:50:49.488 --> 00:50:54.488 Absolutely, and it's interesting because as the therapist working with this population, 00:50:54.488 --> 00:50:58.368 it's interesting because I work with so many people that are continually trying to show up 00:50:58.368 --> 00:51:02.968 and they're continually handing their heart to the narcissist who is then using it against them. 00:51:02.968 --> 00:51:07.208 But then I also get that person that just didn't, that's why I like to say didn't know what they didn't know. 00:51:07.208 --> 00:51:10.488 And yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable, but all of a sudden they get the tool 00:51:10.488 --> 00:51:12.221 and they just can't do enough with it. 00:51:12.488 --> 00:51:15.128 I mean, they want to just figure it out as quickly as they can, 00:51:15.128 --> 00:51:16.875 which is a whole thing in and of itself. 00:51:17.659 --> 00:51:20.888 So, Jodi, I feel bad. I have a client or I would talk for another hour, right? 00:51:20.888 --> 00:51:27.448 Will you come back on and we can talk about your story. And I mean, I really, I feel validated as a therapist. 00:51:27.448 --> 00:51:29.688 I feel like I learned what neurodivergence is now. 00:51:29.839 --> 00:51:33.128 I feel like I'm going to have confirmation bias for the rest of the day. 00:51:33.128 --> 00:51:35.848 And wait a minute, is this person, you know, that sort of thing. 00:51:35.848 --> 00:51:39.368 I would love to come back. And don't ever hesitate to reach out to me too. 00:51:39.368 --> 00:51:41.479 If you need anything, I'm happy to. Yeah. 00:51:41.768 --> 00:51:44.168 Cause I'm really fascinated by the assessment you do with couples. 00:51:44.168 --> 00:51:46.394 And maybe we can talk about that too. Cause I think that would be really helpful. 00:51:46.844 --> 00:51:50.328 Okay. Definitely. What a joy. Hey, this is a pleasure. I look forward to talking with you again. 00:51:50.769 --> 00:51:52.551 Very much. Thank you. Thank you for having me tonight. 00:51:52.560 --> 00:52:34.991 Music.