Music.
Welcome to Episode 75 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, Murder
on the Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, the Premium Question and Answer Edition, and more coming.
And let me just share very briefly that if you tried to listen to Episode 74 of Waking
Up to Narcissism and you ran into a lot of repeat sentences and some random guy that
just pops in and says nonsense, that was definitely a problem.
And it was here and it was also on the last episode of the virtual couch.
And my podcast host did a nice job tracking that down.
So that has been taken care of. So as these podcasts are evergreen, if you are listening to this in the future, then,
disregard, because all is well, all is well.
But if you tried to listen to one of those last week, then please just go give it another
listen because everything has been taken care of.
So today we're going to tell a couple of stories and we're going to read a couple of emails.
And I think that we will hope that a theme comes across in those stories and emails.
Let me start out with the first story, and this is from a real listener.
Once upon a time, there lived a woman named Mira. She was married to AJ,
a man who was emotionally immature and deeply insecure.
AJ kept Mira isolated, leaving her trapped in a lonely and gloomy world of her own,
devoid of friends or social interaction.
Mira had once had a soul as lively as a butterfly, but over the past few years,
she felt like she was caught in a web of her husband's insecurities and emotional inadequacies.
So one day while AJ was away, Mira found an old forgotten violin.
It had been an heirloom from her mother and it was tucked away in a dusty corner of the house.
She had been forbidden to play since her marriage, as AJ always said that it just drove him crazy.
But in a moment of defiance, she picked it up and she drew the bow across the strings
and the hauntingly beautiful sound filled the house.
And with it, a piece of her spirit rekindled.
So in the days and the weeks that followed, began playing the violin in secret while AJ was out at work. And she rediscovered the joy that
it brought her, feeling an emotional freedom that she hadn't felt in years. So Mira began to question
why had she ever allowed AJ to suppress her love for music, and more broadly, it had really affected
and impacted her own self-worth. So one day, while playing, she heard a knock on her door.
It was a couple of kids from the neighborhood. They had been drawn by the sound of the violin.
Mira, she was very nervous, but she was excited. She invited them in, but she knew that AJ could
not find out about this. So they began to visit regularly, and Mira slowly started to build the
social connections that she had been missing. Starting to play more, and then her friends,
and even a couple of neighbors started to stop by as well, some of the parents of the kids.
And so she also joined an online group of violinists from across the world who encouraged
her to share her music publicly.
Now gathering courage, slowly but surely, Mira decided to perform at a local community event,
inviting her new young friends, all while AJ had gone out of town on business.
The performance was a huge success and the applause she received was the most heartwarming
sound that she felt like she had ever heard. Now word of her talent started to spread quickly in
the local community, and Mira became a respected figure, and her violin performances actually
started to become a much-anticipated event, and she said that there were plenty of times
where it almost felt like a tv sitcom or a bad movie where she had to cover up what she was doing
whenever AJ was around and there were some really close calls where she felt like she was going to
get caught. The children in her neighborhood started to love her, the women started to admire
her courage and spirit, but she felt like a fraud. Now AJ could no longer ignore Mira's growth. She
started to stand up for herself. She started to have this just air of confidence and he was
absolutely threatened by this newfound independence and confidence, and it led to a lot of heated
arguments. But Mira, slowly but surely, had been recognizing her worth, and she started to remain
undeterred. She told AJ that if he could not accept her for who she was, then he would have
to learn to live without her. AJ was taken back by her resolve, and so he was forced to confront
his own insecurities and emotional immaturity, realizing that he would lose Mira if he didn't
change. So while it was difficult and the whole journey was just it felt almost impossible for him.
Mira's courage served as a catalyst for him to seek help and start his own journey of personal
growth. In the end, Mira had not only rediscovered her self-worth, but it also helped others find
theirs and her story started to serve as a beacon of hope for women in similar situations,
demonstrating the power of self-realization and the positive impact it could have had on their
lives. From then on, Mira was not just a woman, a wife, or a violinist. She started to become an
an emblem of courage, of resilience, and a beacon of hope in her community.
The story like that one sounds amazing, but the person who submitted the story said that she has
always wanted to share this story with me, and she began writing it shortly after she started
listening to the podcast because she still thought that her husband, the AJ in the story,
would truly recognize her worth the more that she started playing, and that he would use her
growth truly as a catalyst that would spur his own mental health journey. But instead, she said,
the things that I've shared, the stronger she got, the more that she raised her emotional baseline.
Unfortunately, the worse he got, the meaner things he said. And she said it even got to the point
where she had to remove her violin from the house because he would have clearly destroyed it. You.
Know, and this actually kind of reminded me of a story that J.K. Rowling shared in a podcast that
she's a part of called The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling. And I'm specifically referencing her
story from, I think it was the first episode, where she tells a bit of her origin story and
being in a relationship with an abusive husband at the time. And she was writing the story of
of Harry Potter manually, I believe, and she would have to sneak pages out of the house and
photocopy them as she was incredibly afraid that he would destroy them because he knew how much
that they meant to her. This listener went on to say, I have been so fascinated by this entire
waking up process. She said, it's like reading the parables and the Bible stories I loved as a kid
and sometimes still today. You can listen to an episode of your podcast or someone else's
narcissistic podcast and hear it one way. And then a few months later, when you're in a different
spot in your own life you hear something completely different. So in my telling you this story I
initially thought as I learned to play the violin again and as people were inspired and motivated by
my playing that he would soften. That he would see that I really do mean well to him and to
everybody that I come into contact with, but now I see that as I play the violin.
He can only see that, as you've said in a previous episode, as a zero-sum game, where if I can do something unique and special,
that for some reason that means that I don't think that he is doing anything unique or special, and apparently he needs to be unique and special.
And then if I try and have the conversation with him, well now I'm engaging with him, which is exactly what he wants.
And his goal at that time now is to simply make me feel bad enough that I apologize, that I stop playing the violin, but here's the funny thing, and then do what?
She said, I don't even remember or know what I'm supposed to do or what I always did after
he berated me because now I can't unsee what I've seen.
I have a talent. It can bring good. It makes me feel good. And when I feel good, I'm a better human being.
I'm thinking of more pieces to learn to play. And he sees that then as he is losing control over me.
As if now I am going to go off and sleep with everybody that hears me play.
That's right. He honestly said that at some point.
I realized I truly cannot put myself in his shoes because yes, that would be hard
if you felt like your wife was gonna go sleep with everybody who felt comfort
or was inspired by her music.
But she said, I feel like that is a colossal waste of time even to have typed that last sentence to you.
So when he wants me to stop playing and she said, see, I don't even know what to say next.
And for the first time, it actually feels wonderful.
I don't know what the future holds currently, but thank you for the way you share
the information that you do. I truly don't know what I didn't know.
And as I have discovered more about the relationship I'm in,
I have slowly shifted from trying to figure out how to make him happy to how to be happy.
And that has been a journey.
But it too has slowly gone from something that I thought a little bit about
to something I think about on a regular basis. And I find myself doing more, talking to more people,
and simply living more.
Do I think that he's gonna have the aha moment? No, not at all.
But I no longer care. I'm gonna keep being me.
And the crazy part is, I really am starting to like me.
So next up we have an example of gaslighting. They've been in the trenches for a long time in a unhealthy narcissistic relationship and they said
I've got an example of gaslighting and it's so subtle and hard to detect which makes it a perfect
story to share. They said we were driving to dinner just the two of us in my car and it was
quiet like really quiet. He was driving I was in the passenger's front seat and I could hear the
window of the seat behind me softly squeaking with the wind and vibration as we drove. I,
mentioned this to him and asked him if he could check if the kids had left the window
just slightly down. He responded by telling me that it's my sunglasses making the noise.
And it took me a second to register what he meant. The noise I was hearing was coming
at my right ear from behind me and definitely from the top of the window where it rolls
up into the rubber gasket. My sunglasses, on the other hand, were in the center console
on the left side of me and down low. And I say,
no, the noise I'm hearing is coming from the window.
And I'm still confused as to how he thinks he knows what I'm hearing,
but I just let it go. So he picks up my sunglasses to stop the noise and sure he solved the problem. When I say I can still hear it, he then decides to use
the driver's control panel to check if the window can roll up anymore. When that didn't solve the problem,
I say I can still hear it and he responds by telling me it's probably
something rattling in the door, meaning the passenger door on his side of the car. Again,
dismissing that I might actually know what I'm hearing and where it's coming from.
For some reason, he's supposed to be the authority on my hearing and I'm supposed to play along and
just accept it. He just completely invalidated me as a thinking person. Invalidated that my
hearing is excellent and invalidated that I actually know what I'm talking about.
At this point, I want to scream and possibly swear, but I don't. I say nothing. I take three
very deep breaths. I remind myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or feels or believes. I know
it's not about validating me in this relationship and that I really only exist to bounce back to him
what he needs. It's not going to change anything to stick up for myself and demand that he
acknowledge that it's the window, so I just let it go. And just like that, I let him believe he's
right. I've acquiesced the verbal competition and no further emotional damage can be done.
So, when we park the car at the restaurant, he opens his passenger door just to see what
was rattling around and making that soft noise.
He finds nothing, obviously, and yet he never once acknowledges that it could even possibly
have been the window behind me.
The gaslighting is so subtle that it feels off at first, and it's confusing and like
you just want to set the record straight. Yet any attempt to do so is met with resistance.
More gaslighting, more invalidation, more refusal to accept reality, followed by more
attempts to suck you into their reality.
No, it's the sunglasses. No, it's something in the door.
You don't know what you're talking about, but I do." And she said, it's just wild.
As I watched it unfold, I was struck with the million-dollar question, does he really
believe that it can't be the window?
Like honestly, does he? Or does he know that I'm right, but the urge to establish power and control over me
trumps all common sense?
And the end doesn't matter, I'm not trying to make this work, so it just doesn't matter.
What does matter is that it feels off and I did listen to my body and I heard something
screaming unsafe and so I got out of that verbal competition as soon as possible.
And I believe if I go back to the article by Julie Hall from Psychology Today entitled
Understanding the Narcissist's Antagonistic Attachment Style, this goes back to what she
she called predation. And that's because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for dominance.
They emotionally and perhaps also physically and sexually oppress or intimidate or violate
others to experience and maintain feelings of power and control. And she says narcissistic
displays of dominance may be flagrant forms of aggression, literally like hitting, pushing,
berating, name-calling, playing favorites, critiquing, and monologuing. Or they may be
more passive-aggressive maneuvers like dismissal, silent treatment, backhand complements, etc.
And so I feel like this clearly falls under that concept of dismissal, that how on earth would somebody else know what your experience is more than you will, that that is absolutely dismissing your experiences and dismissing a lot of things, dismissing curiosity, dismissing a desire to connect or desire to even be there.
And in this case, the guy to help his spouse out because he just doesn't doesn't feel like that warrants his time. That's very dismissive.
I want to share a couple of stories from other emails that I've received as well, and I think the theme of today's episode truly is how difficult it can be to maneuver or get out of these unhealthy relationships.
And so many of the emails that I get are from people that have truly woken up to the narcissism or the emotional immaturity in their relationship.
And as I've said from episode one, no one knows if this is just something that they don't know that they don't know as a couple, can they learn to communicate more effectively?
Is my spouse a true narcissist or are they just emotionally immature?
And is there a way to get help and to change the relationship and to have that version of family and retirement and hopes and dreams that I think we all dream for as kids?
As kids and in DreamFor when we get married.
And I just want to, again, tell a few stories today from emails that I think will lay out the difficulties
of the journey and what different people's experiences can look like because I think the more that we hear
people's experiences. Sure, it can be frustrating.
It can also be liberating, or it can be something that can fill people with hope. And someone a few
days ago that I was meeting with in person just mentioned that one of the things that really
resonated with them the most was just to hear that you're where you need to be, and that you
didn't know what you didn't know. And as you are starting to learn more, that there's definitely
going to be periods where things are just really uncomfortable. But it's also your journey. And as
And as cliched as that sounds, I think that there are people that are going to hear these
stories today and they're going to do the old Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication.
But actually probably communicate a little violently and listen or observe, hear these
stories and make judgments of why didn't this person just do this other thing.
But I think it's just so important to hear different people's stories because everybody's
story, as consistent as the patterns seem to be, are truly different. So this one, the person said,
Hi Tony, I know you like a good story, so I have taken the liberty to turn my own story into a bit
of a narrative. Please feel free to read this if you think it would be helpful. I've already changed
a lot of the details to protect the innocent. Once upon a time in the bustling city of New York,
okay, come on, we already got to like the fact that this one starts with a once upon a time,
But once upon a time, in the bustling city of New York, lived a gentle woman named Clara.
Clara had been told that she was beautiful as a child on the inside and out, yet over the course
of her adolescence and well into her marriage, she felt anything but beautiful on the inside or
out. As she looked in the mirror one morning, in her sweats, with her makeup off, and her hair a
mess, she wondered, what happened? She had been an accomplished writer, but she rarely wrote.
She felt exhausted, and always told herself that she'd pick up the pen again tomorrow.
Everything was about tomorrow, but she was beginning to realize that tomorrow seemed to never come and every day seemed to be,
Not just more of the same. It was actually slowly turning into one long walk in the fog,
She quickly thought that she...
She quickly thought she better snap out of it because Henry might see her not smiling,
and she would hear how difficult that was for him because he worked so hard for her
and she never seemed to appreciate all that he did. And that was true. She was literally
standing here just thinking of herself and not him, but in that moment, something just seemed
off. What she didn't even realize at that time was that she was ensnared in a debilitating
relationship with Henry, a charming yet manipulative covert narcissist, or at the
at the very least, an extremely emotionally immature human being.
Claire had first been drawn to Henry's charisma and the sense of security that he provided,
which seemed to be the antidote to the loneliness and uncertainty that had pervaded her entire life.
However, she soon found herself caught in a cycle of emotional abuse and manipulation.
And her confidence was gradually stripped away and she found herself trauma-bonded to
Henry, unable to leave due to a misplaced loyalty and fear.
Not only did she let herself go, but Henry had also convinced her that her problems were
her problems only and she shouldn't put those out on anybody else, that she needed
to deal with her own stuff, and that she really better figure things out soon because Henry
was starting to get frustrated as well.
Clara had all but given up on reaching out to her family because she would often be met,
with the, hey, at least Henry's nice, or at least he's a good provider.
And then she would just say, yeah, you're probably right.
So she truly felt alone. She felt isolated.
But one spring day, Clara was listening to a podcast by one of her favorite podcast hosts.
It was called The Virtual Couch.
And as she started to clean the house, she heard the familiar, Hey, everybody, welcome
to the virtual couch.
And on that particular episode, the host was saying something about narcissism and gaslighting.
And Clara didn't even realize that she had stopped cleaning dead in her tracks.
And she had just noticed that her heart rate was elevating. And she listened to examples of conversations that she thought that the host, Tony, must
have overheard from Henry and her.
She looked at her phone to read more about the episode, and on the bottom of the screen
it said something like, you may also like, and it listed a few podcasts, and there was
one called Waking Up the Narcissism, and it was by the same host.
Now, Clara doesn't even remember clicking on the podcast, but there was that familiar
voice and as she listened to several episodes in a row, she found herself relating to the victim's stories.
She realized that she was living their experiences, and that her relationship with Henry was actually
detrimental to her self-worth and her happiness. realized that she did in fact spend a lot of her days wondering what was wrong with her.
And yes, she did feel broken. And she questioned often her thoughts and her feelings and her
emotions. And rightly so, because Henry was very quick to challenge those and say that,
Well, hey, I'm just doing this for your good.
But here she's hearing these people's stories and hearing these messages that,
she's actually her own individual human being and an adult is allowed to have their own thoughts
and feelings and experiences. But then she found herself feeling guilty that she was starting to
think this because what would Henry think if he heard her listening to this and she felt maybe I
can let him listen too, but that just didn't feel right. Something felt wrong about that and she
She just suddenly got scared and she was frightened.
She actually decided that this whole experience was a little too overwhelming and she decided
to stop listening to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast and maybe even the virtual couch as well.
She just needed to just be grateful that at least she did have a house and at least she
did have a husband who they had some good times.
But the more that she was now aware that there were other people in a similar situation,
the more she kept thinking about it.
And the more she kept thinking about it, she then eventually was led back to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast.
And then she started doing just a deep dive on all kinds of podcasts and things about narcissism.
And again, it would feel overwhelming to Clara.
But this awakening was the spark that Clara needed. She knew that it would be a challenging journey,
but she decided that she needed to regain her confidence and steady her resolve, and maybe even accept the fact
that she may have to leave Henry.
She started attending therapy with a renowned psychologist in her area
who she didn't actually mention this at first.
Clara didn't share this, but she went to a therapist that specialized in helping victims
in narcissistic abusive relationships.
Now, the psychologist helped Clara understand that the mechanisms of her trauma bond
and equipped her with tools to rebuild her confidence.
They practiced mindfulness exercises, which helped Clara to center herself,
and to acknowledge that her feelings were her feelings
and acknowledge them without judgment.
The therapist also helped Clara to reframe her experiences, encouraging her to view them as evidence
of her strength and resilience, rather than sources of shame and guilt.
She was hearing the same message on the Waking Up the Narcissist podcast and on these other podcasts
that she was listening to as well.
And then aside from therapy, Clara started working on her self-esteem.
Slowly but surely, she identified with Tony's examples of raising her emotional baseline.
And she just started to hope and dream.
And she suddenly started taking walks and she started to just notice
that life is actually happening all around her,
but she had shut down her own life.
Now, as she worked on her self-esteem and raising that emotional baseline, she started
to even embrace some of the solitude, relishing the time that she was able to spend working
on herself and even alone.
She started to rediscover her love for writing and began documenting her journey.
Each word she penned down served as a catharsis, and her stories resonated with many who had similar experiences.
The positive feedback that she started receiving when she started an anonymous blog boosted
confidence and made her feel very seen and very validated. She then joined a
local support group and also an online support group that Tony had recommended
where she was able to meet and listen to and read stories from others who are
also in similar relationships and that had maybe already been through the process that had been victims of narcissistic relationships. And they,
shared their experiences, they learned from each other, and together they built
a network of strength and understanding. The support and shared experience
that she found in the group became a source of empowerment for Clara, and it made her feel less
alone and bolstered her belief that she could break free from her toxic relationship. Months
passed, and as Clara grew stronger, both mentally and emotionally, she still had bad days, moments
where the trauma bond just seemed too strong. As she really did start to raise her emotional baseline
and not engage in Henry's gaslighting, sure enough, the buttons that he pressed were often
even worse. And that made it really difficult, but it also made her feel
empowered to know that this was the experience of so many before her, and,
that the more that she was able to stand up for herself and have her own thoughts
and opinions, even if they were just happening in her mind, that she started
to feel like she was freeing up those emotional calories to do things that really helped her become a better person.
She would often still doubt her own resolve, but she was patient with herself, knowing that healing wasn't a linear process.
She wrote herself a note in her phone when she heard Tony say that she didn't know what she didn't know,
and now she knows, but she's still having a really hard time doing the things that she needs to do or wants to do,
and that that is one of the most difficult places to be, but that she also could start to see that she was starting to do things more than she wasn't,
and she started to actually believe that she could eventually become.
Clara continued to lean on her support system and she continued her therapy,
but slowly and steadily her confidence built.
And then one winter morning, a year after she first listened to Waking Up to Narcissism,
Clara woke up and knew that she was ready.
Her fear was replaced by resolve, her doubts by confidence, and she approached Henry and she laid out her truths that she had uncovered
and she firmly and calmly ended their relationship.
Now, Clara's journey was not easy from there. He tried everything he could to get her back,
but she grew to love, absolutely love popcorn and watching the show.
And it required immense strength and patience and courage.
And she actually took up cycling and created her own relational frame with the phrase,
do you want to ride bikes?
Where before, after Henry would verbally abuse her and then come back in and say, hey, what's for dinner?
Metaphorically then saying, do you want to ride bikes? She always felt like she had to,
but now she was gonna ride bikes whenever she wanted and it would actually be something
that would benefit her and make her stronger.
But her unwavering commitment to regaining her confidence and breaking free from the trauma bond
eventually led her to freedom.
Her story is a testament to the power of resilience and a reminder that nobody should feel trapped
in a relationship that diminishes their self-worth.
As Clara stepped out into the cold winter day, she breathed in her newfound freedom, and with the warmth of her own strength enveloping her, she was ready to face her future unshackled and free.
So thank you very much for sharing that message, Clara. I'm assuming that the writer is, that's based on her own story.
And I want to next though, share a story of this is more of the kind of stories that I get where people are saying, okay, I don't know how I can escape this right now, whether it's a financial commitment, kids, just so many different things, where people will hear the stories of others, maybe what, like Clara, and hear these stories about gaslighting, or they'll be a part of a group.
And then they will still go back to that old narrative, that old chestnut of what is wrong with me? And there is nothing because your mileage not may vary, your mileage will vary.
And so everybody's experience is based off of all the different things that they bring into the relationship and the things that they bring from their own childhood and adolescence.
And then every family system is unique and different, but yet what you're doing,
if you're listening to this right now, and if you're starting to gain that resolve,
then you're doing what you need to be doing.
So let me share a story that's gonna probably resonate with more people than one would think,
and it may also feel a little bit, I don't wanna just throw the judgment sad on here,
but I just think this one is so, so real of where a lot of people are right now.
This person said that they have been a longtime listener of the podcasts and they said that they are forever
working toward a PhD in everything that has to do with narcissism.
And they do feel like they are in a much different spot than where they were a few years ago.
So much growth, but also pain and then more growth.
And she said, you read a letter from a woman a while ago who was drowning in the middle of it all.
She was desperately seeking something to hold on to, some sort of guide or hope for getting through
narcissistic relationship. I felt her pain and I wanted to tell her that the
secret to staying in it until you can manage to arrange getting out is to let to go.
And I feel like it's that line alone that was what led me to build this episode around this letter in particular,
because until you can manage to arrange getting out, because there are people that do feel stuck,
and they are starting to wake up to a lot of the immaturity and narcissism, but just feel so stuck.
So she said, you have to get to the place where you just don't care anymore.
You truly know the relationship is dead and you honestly stop trying to make it work.
You stop caring what they think or want or need or expect or desire because it doesn't
matter to you anymore.
Only then are you able to live in it without reactivity.
And the funny thing is, even though you've radically changed how you're showing up
for the party, they don't behave any differently.
Will you still get triggered? You bet.
But it hurts less when you don't place any importance on their opinion of you, which,
is a moving target anyway.
It's going to take time, quite possibly years, of trying, failing, and getting back up again.
But if you are doing your personal work, you will have the tools to calm your nervous system
and recognize gaslighting and manipulation and coercive control and power plays.
It will always suck to live through these interactions, but you'll see it for what
it is and not be surprised.
You'll understand that every attempt at communication, even over the most mundane
topics will be turned into a verbal competition, which they do plan on winning.
So you'll let them win in the first few minutes because you don't care, it simply
doesn't matter to you.
You will still have, quote, the good times, when their mood dictates, but those bread
crumbs won't be enough to reel you back in.
You will be able to pick apart how their needs were being met so of course they were agreeable,
easy to have around, and maybe even at times fun.
But it has nothing to do with you or your efforts and rests solely on them having escaped
feelings of any negative emotions.
You can stay as long as you need to when you let it go, and it is important to have one
person who's committed to supporting you, who will allow you to process through your
own negative emotions with them.
That's what I wanted to tell this woman, and I wanted to give her just a great big hug.
One of the main questions that I get, and I received one of these over the weekend, is it can be simple.
The person said, how long should somebody stay in a narcissistic marriage if they feel isolated and alone?
And the short answer is that no one should stay in an emotionally harmful or an abusive relationship,
including one where they feel isolated and alone.
Because just remembering that narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships involve patterns of manipulation and gaslighting and emotional abuse
that can have serious impacts on your own mental health and your well-being.
But I think what is difficult is that decision to leave a relationship,
especially a marriage, that is highly personal.
And it depends on a number of factors, including things like safety,
financial resources, children, other logistical and emotional considerations.
So that decision making process is going to take time.
And it is so important to approach it without judgment. but that can be so hard to step outside of your own ego
and not feel like what is wrong with you and you are doing something wrong.
And so I really think there are some important steps that you really just need to keep in mind
as you are starting to wake up to this entire process.
And I am still saying that this is where if you are still trying to decide is the relationship viable?
Is this just a situation where we don't know what we don't know?
Can I get my husband or wife to go to counseling, to therapy?
Will they listen to courses? Will they do podcasts?
Are they willing to sit with some discomfort and self-reflect?
But here are the things that do need to be considered safety.
If you feel or worry that you will be in physical danger, it's going to be really
difficult. And you may need to contact the domestic violence hotline or even be
prepared to talk with local law enforcement.
And I think when we start out with safety first, it can just show how difficult
navigating this situation can be.
And to people that are not in these type of relationships, then they hear something
like that. And they say, yeah, just reach out, just call. But I know that I work with
plenty of people that they don't feel like they can even call because their phone may
be being monitored, their spouse may be checking on phone records, and there's just so much
control. But after safety, then seek professional help. Seek guidance from a professional counselor
or a therapist that's experienced in this narcissistic or emotional abuse. They can
provide you with strategies for coping, resources that if you do feel like you need to leave,
and then emotional support during the process.
Because when all you're doing is kicking things around in your own head, then they are gonna tend,
to go toward the negative.
And it's so important, as our fictitious Clara mentioned, to find a support network.
Reaching out to trusted friends and family members, but again, not the Switzerland friends or family members,
the ones that are gonna give you the well, at least this, but joining that support group.
Isolation is a tactic that is used in abusive relationships.
So having a network of support can be beneficial and it can be online, it can be in person,
but having people that are having these shared experiences It's just.
A phenomenal place to be. And I find that a lot of people that I talk with, and sometimes I get
emails from people that are just saying, here's all the things I'm going through and help and I
need advice and I don't know what to do next. And if I suggest joining the private women's
Facebook group or soon the men's group, I will often hear, well, yeah, but I just don't want,
I don't want to be in there because I don't want it to be so negative, or I don't want people to
know who I am or, and I really just worry that those are a lot of just the yeah, buts.
It's the fear of the unknown. But education can be the key.
So we've got safety, professional help, support network,
but education, starting to learn about narcissistic abuse and its impact on victims,
and understanding this dynamic can be very,
I mean, when you start to understand what's going on or that dynamic of what's happening in the relationship,
that can be validating and empowering.
And helping you start to make some sense of the nonsense that is happening.
And then just slowly but surely, you can start to just think about and lay out a plan.
Because if you do decide to leave, develop a safety plan.
I know it may sound dramatic, but it is absolutely normal for people to start securing finances
or starting to look ahead to find a safe place to stay and ensuring that children, if there are any, are protected.
But remember that you do not have to face this alone at all, because there are the groups that are available,
there's resources available, and if you're in the US, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available
at 1-800-799-SAFE, 7233,
or you can access help through their website.
But the most important thing to remember is that everybody deserves to be in a relationship
where they are respected, where they are loved, and where they feel safe,
and where they are allowed to have their own opinion and their own experiences.
And I so often worry that people, when I'm putting this out there,
and the reason why I wanna just continually beat this drum is that when I say we didn't know what we didn't know
if we were in emotionally immature, unhealthy relationships,
then we absolutely don't know what a healthy relationship looks like.
And so, it is something that you deserve. And you deserve to be able to be validated, have your opinions heard and understood.
It should be okay for you to make mistakes, because we all do.
And have somebody that's there to even just laugh about things with.
You know, oh that happened, and not say, there you go again, or here's what you're doing, or what you need to understand.
That it's not healthy in a relationship to have the other person continually telling you
what you need to do, what you need to know, what you're not understanding about yourself
because you actually are the best person to be the expert on yourself.
And so part of this whole awakening process is starting to really understand who you are.
And I would not continue to ask someone, who am I,
if that person is someone that is telling you things that do not make you feel like you are of worth
because that is gonna be emotionally damaging
and you are going to waste a significant amount of your life, your time, your emotional calories
trying to determine, am I okay?
Or am I broken or am I of worth? Because you are, you absolutely are of worth.
Not broken, nothing wrong, you are of worth.
So I will end here with a bit of an impromptu story. Once I was serving in a church position, a church calling,
and there were a bunch of us that were in a meeting and you like to start with a good old hymn, and an opening hymn.
And there wasn't anyone that immediately jumped up and said that they knew how to play the piano.
A good friend of mine named Tom said, well, I played a little bit back in college,
and that had been a long time before that night.
So he jumps up there and he starts playing, and I will never forget,
and I don't even know why it just worked the way it did, but he started playing,
and he got about 3 4ths of the way through the hymn. We were all singing, it was a good mood,
Everybody felt jovial.
But then he just started to peter out and plunk some keys that just didn't really seem
to be the right keys.
And he just stopped. And we all just sort of looked at each other and it just felt right.
We had enough. We had enough of that hymn. The mood, the feeling that we needed was there.
So why belabor something that had gone pretty well?
So hopefully you've gathered some information from the stories that were told today.
And so much like Tom stopped playing that hymn, I think I'll stop recording this episode.
And if you have some follow-up questions, please send them my way,
info or contact at tonyoverbay.com.
And I would love to hear your stories. I would love to hear if you'd like to be a part,
of either the men's or women's Facebook group.
And then I will see you.
Music.