WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.600 Music. 00:00:07.597 --> 00:00:11.447 Welcome to Episode 75 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.447 --> 00:00:15.807 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, Murder 00:00:15.807 --> 00:00:20.903 on the Couch, Waking Up to Narcissism, the Premium Question and Answer Edition, and more coming. 00:00:21.767 --> 00:00:26.447 And let me just share very briefly that if you tried to listen to Episode 74 of Waking 00:00:26.447 --> 00:00:32.027 Up to Narcissism and you ran into a lot of repeat sentences and some random guy that 00:00:32.228 --> 00:00:36.227 just pops in and says nonsense, that was definitely a problem. 00:00:36.227 --> 00:00:40.567 And it was here and it was also on the last episode of the virtual couch. 00:00:40.567 --> 00:00:43.615 And my podcast host did a nice job tracking that down. 00:00:43.827 --> 00:00:50.034 So that has been taken care of. So as these podcasts are evergreen, if you are listening to this in the future, then, 00:00:50.707 --> 00:00:54.157 disregard, because all is well, all is well. 00:00:54.627 --> 00:00:57.507 But if you tried to listen to one of those last week, then please just go give it another 00:00:57.507 --> 00:00:59.658 listen because everything has been taken care of. 00:01:00.867 --> 00:01:04.960 So today we're going to tell a couple of stories and we're going to read a couple of emails. 00:01:05.227 --> 00:01:11.216 And I think that we will hope that a theme comes across in those stories and emails. 00:01:11.447 --> 00:01:14.556 Let me start out with the first story, and this is from a real listener. 00:01:15.167 --> 00:01:18.733 Once upon a time, there lived a woman named Mira. She was married to AJ, 00:01:19.167 --> 00:01:22.703 a man who was emotionally immature and deeply insecure. 00:01:23.147 --> 00:01:27.407 AJ kept Mira isolated, leaving her trapped in a lonely and gloomy world of her own, 00:01:27.407 --> 00:01:28.906 devoid of friends or social interaction. 00:01:29.527 --> 00:01:33.007 Mira had once had a soul as lively as a butterfly, but over the past few years, 00:01:33.007 --> 00:01:37.215 she felt like she was caught in a web of her husband's insecurities and emotional inadequacies. 00:01:37.827 --> 00:01:41.087 So one day while AJ was away, Mira found an old forgotten violin. 00:01:41.087 --> 00:01:44.534 It had been an heirloom from her mother and it was tucked away in a dusty corner of the house. 00:01:45.207 --> 00:01:49.867 She had been forbidden to play since her marriage, as AJ always said that it just drove him crazy. 00:01:49.867 --> 00:01:54.227 But in a moment of defiance, she picked it up and she drew the bow across the strings 00:01:54.227 --> 00:01:56.678 and the hauntingly beautiful sound filled the house. 00:01:57.128 --> 00:01:59.658 And with it, a piece of her spirit rekindled. 00:02:00.487 --> 00:02:07.647 So in the days and the weeks that followed, began playing the violin in secret while AJ was out at work. And she rediscovered the joy that 00:02:07.647 --> 00:02:12.927 it brought her, feeling an emotional freedom that she hadn't felt in years. So Mira began to question 00:02:12.927 --> 00:02:19.007 why had she ever allowed AJ to suppress her love for music, and more broadly, it had really affected 00:02:19.007 --> 00:02:24.630 and impacted her own self-worth. So one day, while playing, she heard a knock on her door. 00:02:25.143 --> 00:02:29.032 It was a couple of kids from the neighborhood. They had been drawn by the sound of the violin. 00:02:29.581 --> 00:02:34.207 Mira, she was very nervous, but she was excited. She invited them in, but she knew that AJ could 00:02:34.207 --> 00:02:39.087 not find out about this. So they began to visit regularly, and Mira slowly started to build the 00:02:39.087 --> 00:02:43.727 social connections that she had been missing. Starting to play more, and then her friends, 00:02:43.727 --> 00:02:46.847 and even a couple of neighbors started to stop by as well, some of the parents of the kids. 00:02:47.739 --> 00:02:51.487 And so she also joined an online group of violinists from across the world who encouraged 00:02:51.487 --> 00:02:53.365 her to share her music publicly. 00:02:54.202 --> 00:02:59.217 Now gathering courage, slowly but surely, Mira decided to perform at a local community event, 00:02:59.370 --> 00:03:03.492 inviting her new young friends, all while AJ had gone out of town on business. 00:03:04.447 --> 00:03:08.372 The performance was a huge success and the applause she received was the most heartwarming 00:03:08.372 --> 00:03:12.612 sound that she felt like she had ever heard. Now word of her talent started to spread quickly in 00:03:12.612 --> 00:03:18.052 the local community, and Mira became a respected figure, and her violin performances actually 00:03:18.052 --> 00:03:22.292 started to become a much-anticipated event, and she said that there were plenty of times 00:03:22.292 --> 00:03:28.852 where it almost felt like a tv sitcom or a bad movie where she had to cover up what she was doing 00:03:29.050 --> 00:03:33.172 whenever AJ was around and there were some really close calls where she felt like she was going to 00:03:33.172 --> 00:03:37.252 get caught. The children in her neighborhood started to love her, the women started to admire 00:03:37.252 --> 00:03:44.132 her courage and spirit, but she felt like a fraud. Now AJ could no longer ignore Mira's growth. She 00:03:44.132 --> 00:03:48.372 started to stand up for herself. She started to have this just air of confidence and he was 00:03:48.372 --> 00:03:53.572 absolutely threatened by this newfound independence and confidence, and it led to a lot of heated 00:03:53.572 --> 00:03:59.252 arguments. But Mira, slowly but surely, had been recognizing her worth, and she started to remain 00:03:59.252 --> 00:04:04.132 undeterred. She told AJ that if he could not accept her for who she was, then he would have 00:04:04.132 --> 00:04:09.892 to learn to live without her. AJ was taken back by her resolve, and so he was forced to confront 00:04:09.892 --> 00:04:14.292 his own insecurities and emotional immaturity, realizing that he would lose Mira if he didn't 00:04:14.292 --> 00:04:19.121 change. So while it was difficult and the whole journey was just it felt almost impossible for him. 00:04:19.652 --> 00:04:23.412 Mira's courage served as a catalyst for him to seek help and start his own journey of personal 00:04:23.412 --> 00:04:28.772 growth. In the end, Mira had not only rediscovered her self-worth, but it also helped others find 00:04:28.772 --> 00:04:32.759 theirs and her story started to serve as a beacon of hope for women in similar situations, 00:04:33.281 --> 00:04:36.692 demonstrating the power of self-realization and the positive impact it could have had on their 00:04:36.692 --> 00:04:42.132 lives. From then on, Mira was not just a woman, a wife, or a violinist. She started to become an 00:04:42.132 --> 00:04:45.533 an emblem of courage, of resilience, and a beacon of hope in her community. 00:04:46.965 --> 00:04:51.775 The story like that one sounds amazing, but the person who submitted the story said that she has 00:04:51.775 --> 00:04:55.295 always wanted to share this story with me, and she began writing it shortly after she started 00:04:55.295 --> 00:04:59.712 listening to the podcast because she still thought that her husband, the AJ in the story, 00:05:00.144 --> 00:05:04.975 would truly recognize her worth the more that she started playing, and that he would use her 00:05:04.975 --> 00:05:10.495 growth truly as a catalyst that would spur his own mental health journey. But instead, she said, 00:05:10.596 --> 00:05:16.114 the things that I've shared, the stronger she got, the more that she raised her emotional baseline. 00:05:16.672 --> 00:05:20.895 Unfortunately, the worse he got, the meaner things he said. And she said it even got to the point 00:05:20.895 --> 00:05:24.837 where she had to remove her violin from the house because he would have clearly destroyed it. You. 00:05:25.404 --> 00:05:29.239 Know, and this actually kind of reminded me of a story that J.K. Rowling shared in a podcast that 00:05:29.455 --> 00:05:33.535 she's a part of called The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling. And I'm specifically referencing her 00:05:33.535 --> 00:05:38.815 story from, I think it was the first episode, where she tells a bit of her origin story and 00:05:38.815 --> 00:05:43.295 being in a relationship with an abusive husband at the time. And she was writing the story of 00:05:43.295 --> 00:05:47.135 of Harry Potter manually, I believe, and she would have to sneak pages out of the house and 00:05:47.135 --> 00:05:52.495 photocopy them as she was incredibly afraid that he would destroy them because he knew how much 00:05:52.495 --> 00:05:57.375 that they meant to her. This listener went on to say, I have been so fascinated by this entire 00:05:57.375 --> 00:06:01.375 waking up process. She said, it's like reading the parables and the Bible stories I loved as a kid 00:06:01.375 --> 00:06:05.215 and sometimes still today. You can listen to an episode of your podcast or someone else's 00:06:05.215 --> 00:06:10.255 narcissistic podcast and hear it one way. And then a few months later, when you're in a different 00:06:10.255 --> 00:06:15.535 spot in your own life you hear something completely different. So in my telling you this story I 00:06:15.535 --> 00:06:20.175 initially thought as I learned to play the violin again and as people were inspired and motivated by 00:06:20.175 --> 00:06:24.735 my playing that he would soften. That he would see that I really do mean well to him and to 00:06:24.735 --> 00:06:28.655 everybody that I come into contact with, but now I see that as I play the violin. 00:06:29.708 --> 00:06:36.558 He can only see that, as you've said in a previous episode, as a zero-sum game, where if I can do something unique and special, 00:06:37.090 --> 00:06:44.930 that for some reason that means that I don't think that he is doing anything unique or special, and apparently he needs to be unique and special. 00:06:45.624 --> 00:06:49.918 And then if I try and have the conversation with him, well now I'm engaging with him, which is exactly what he wants. 00:06:50.558 --> 00:06:58.524 And his goal at that time now is to simply make me feel bad enough that I apologize, that I stop playing the violin, but here's the funny thing, and then do what? 00:06:59.298 --> 00:07:02.918 She said, I don't even remember or know what I'm supposed to do or what I always did after 00:07:02.918 --> 00:07:05.645 he berated me because now I can't unsee what I've seen. 00:07:06.248 --> 00:07:11.820 I have a talent. It can bring good. It makes me feel good. And when I feel good, I'm a better human being. 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:17.249 I'm thinking of more pieces to learn to play. And he sees that then as he is losing control over me. 00:07:18.038 --> 00:07:22.598 As if now I am going to go off and sleep with everybody that hears me play. 00:07:22.598 --> 00:07:24.351 That's right. He honestly said that at some point. 00:07:24.598 --> 00:07:28.988 I realized I truly cannot put myself in his shoes because yes, that would be hard 00:07:29.098 --> 00:07:31.678 if you felt like your wife was gonna go sleep with everybody who felt comfort 00:07:31.678 --> 00:07:32.940 or was inspired by her music. 00:07:33.518 --> 00:07:38.215 But she said, I feel like that is a colossal waste of time even to have typed that last sentence to you. 00:07:38.938 --> 00:07:44.210 So when he wants me to stop playing and she said, see, I don't even know what to say next. 00:07:44.578 --> 00:07:46.776 And for the first time, it actually feels wonderful. 00:07:47.578 --> 00:07:50.338 I don't know what the future holds currently, but thank you for the way you share 00:07:50.338 --> 00:07:53.564 the information that you do. I truly don't know what I didn't know. 00:07:53.858 --> 00:07:56.298 And as I have discovered more about the relationship I'm in, 00:07:56.298 --> 00:08:00.261 I have slowly shifted from trying to figure out how to make him happy to how to be happy. 00:08:00.658 --> 00:08:02.107 And that has been a journey. 00:08:02.878 --> 00:08:06.698 But it too has slowly gone from something that I thought a little bit about 00:08:06.778 --> 00:08:10.974 to something I think about on a regular basis. And I find myself doing more, talking to more people, 00:08:11.338 --> 00:08:12.757 and simply living more. 00:08:13.378 --> 00:08:16.367 Do I think that he's gonna have the aha moment? No, not at all. 00:08:16.938 --> 00:08:19.436 But I no longer care. I'm gonna keep being me. 00:08:19.978 --> 00:08:22.992 And the crazy part is, I really am starting to like me. 00:08:24.054 --> 00:08:34.624 So next up we have an example of gaslighting. They've been in the trenches for a long time in a unhealthy narcissistic relationship and they said 00:08:34.821 --> 00:08:39.664 I've got an example of gaslighting and it's so subtle and hard to detect which makes it a perfect 00:08:39.664 --> 00:08:44.144 story to share. They said we were driving to dinner just the two of us in my car and it was 00:08:44.144 --> 00:08:49.664 quiet like really quiet. He was driving I was in the passenger's front seat and I could hear the 00:08:49.664 --> 00:08:54.374 window of the seat behind me softly squeaking with the wind and vibration as we drove. I, 00:08:55.104 --> 00:08:58.324 mentioned this to him and asked him if he could check if the kids had left the window 00:08:58.324 --> 00:09:02.782 just slightly down. He responded by telling me that it's my sunglasses making the noise. 00:09:03.544 --> 00:09:07.283 And it took me a second to register what he meant. The noise I was hearing was coming 00:09:07.535 --> 00:09:12.544 at my right ear from behind me and definitely from the top of the window where it rolls 00:09:12.544 --> 00:09:17.114 up into the rubber gasket. My sunglasses, on the other hand, were in the center console 00:09:17.303 --> 00:09:20.624 on the left side of me and down low. And I say, 00:09:20.841 --> 00:09:22.794 no, the noise I'm hearing is coming from the window. 00:09:23.262 --> 00:09:26.881 And I'm still confused as to how he thinks he knows what I'm hearing, 00:09:27.358 --> 00:09:35.664 but I just let it go. So he picks up my sunglasses to stop the noise and sure he solved the problem. When I say I can still hear it, he then decides to use 00:09:35.664 --> 00:09:41.555 the driver's control panel to check if the window can roll up anymore. When that didn't solve the problem, 00:09:41.663 --> 00:09:44.193 I say I can still hear it and he responds by telling me it's probably 00:09:44.464 --> 00:09:49.424 something rattling in the door, meaning the passenger door on his side of the car. Again, 00:09:49.567 --> 00:09:52.864 dismissing that I might actually know what I'm hearing and where it's coming from. 00:09:53.582 --> 00:09:58.784 For some reason, he's supposed to be the authority on my hearing and I'm supposed to play along and 00:09:58.784 --> 00:10:04.464 just accept it. He just completely invalidated me as a thinking person. Invalidated that my 00:10:04.464 --> 00:10:08.304 hearing is excellent and invalidated that I actually know what I'm talking about. 00:10:09.093 --> 00:10:13.984 At this point, I want to scream and possibly swear, but I don't. I say nothing. I take three 00:10:13.984 --> 00:10:19.024 very deep breaths. I remind myself that it doesn't matter what he thinks or feels or believes. I know 00:10:19.024 --> 00:10:24.199 it's not about validating me in this relationship and that I really only exist to bounce back to him 00:10:24.352 --> 00:10:28.464 what he needs. It's not going to change anything to stick up for myself and demand that he 00:10:28.464 --> 00:10:33.984 acknowledge that it's the window, so I just let it go. And just like that, I let him believe he's 00:10:33.984 --> 00:10:39.097 right. I've acquiesced the verbal competition and no further emotional damage can be done. 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:44.300 So, when we park the car at the restaurant, he opens his passenger door just to see what 00:10:44.300 --> 00:10:46.839 was rattling around and making that soft noise. 00:10:47.060 --> 00:10:52.520 He finds nothing, obviously, and yet he never once acknowledges that it could even possibly 00:10:52.646 --> 00:10:55.122 have been the window behind me. 00:10:55.460 --> 00:11:00.120 The gaslighting is so subtle that it feels off at first, and it's confusing and like 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:04.835 you just want to set the record straight. Yet any attempt to do so is met with resistance. 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:09.780 More gaslighting, more invalidation, more refusal to accept reality, followed by more 00:11:09.780 --> 00:11:12.340 attempts to suck you into their reality. 00:11:12.676 --> 00:11:14.890 No, it's the sunglasses. No, it's something in the door. 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:19.059 You don't know what you're talking about, but I do." And she said, it's just wild. 00:11:19.640 --> 00:11:24.000 As I watched it unfold, I was struck with the million-dollar question, does he really 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:26.107 believe that it can't be the window? 00:11:26.780 --> 00:11:31.980 Like honestly, does he? Or does he know that I'm right, but the urge to establish power and control over me 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:33.408 trumps all common sense? 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:38.143 And the end doesn't matter, I'm not trying to make this work, so it just doesn't matter. 00:11:38.780 --> 00:11:43.780 What does matter is that it feels off and I did listen to my body and I heard something 00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:48.919 screaming unsafe and so I got out of that verbal competition as soon as possible. 00:11:49.860 --> 00:11:54.660 And I believe if I go back to the article by Julie Hall from Psychology Today entitled 00:11:54.660 --> 00:12:00.140 Understanding the Narcissist's Antagonistic Attachment Style, this goes back to what she 00:12:00.140 --> 00:12:05.690 she called predation. And that's because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for dominance. 00:12:06.300 --> 00:12:11.540 They emotionally and perhaps also physically and sexually oppress or intimidate or violate 00:12:11.540 --> 00:12:17.258 others to experience and maintain feelings of power and control. And she says narcissistic 00:12:17.384 --> 00:12:22.220 displays of dominance may be flagrant forms of aggression, literally like hitting, pushing, 00:12:22.220 --> 00:12:27.140 berating, name-calling, playing favorites, critiquing, and monologuing. Or they may be 00:12:27.140 --> 00:12:32.022 more passive-aggressive maneuvers like dismissal, silent treatment, backhand complements, etc. 00:12:32.868 --> 00:12:51.710 And so I feel like this clearly falls under that concept of dismissal, that how on earth would somebody else know what your experience is more than you will, that that is absolutely dismissing your experiences and dismissing a lot of things, dismissing curiosity, dismissing a desire to connect or desire to even be there. 00:12:52.034 --> 00:12:59.718 And in this case, the guy to help his spouse out because he just doesn't doesn't feel like that warrants his time. That's very dismissive. 00:13:00.901 --> 00:13:15.718 I want to share a couple of stories from other emails that I've received as well, and I think the theme of today's episode truly is how difficult it can be to maneuver or get out of these unhealthy relationships. 00:13:15.718 --> 00:13:24.718 And so many of the emails that I get are from people that have truly woken up to the narcissism or the emotional immaturity in their relationship. 00:13:24.901 --> 00:13:34.718 And as I've said from episode one, no one knows if this is just something that they don't know that they don't know as a couple, can they learn to communicate more effectively? 00:13:35.407 --> 00:13:38.718 Is my spouse a true narcissist or are they just emotionally immature? 00:13:38.718 --> 00:13:52.403 And is there a way to get help and to change the relationship and to have that version of family and retirement and hopes and dreams that I think we all dream for as kids? 00:13:52.718 --> 00:13:55.932 As kids and in DreamFor when we get married. 00:13:56.718 --> 00:14:04.118 And I just want to, again, tell a few stories today from emails that I think will lay out the difficulties 00:14:04.118 --> 00:14:11.158 of the journey and what different people's experiences can look like because I think the more that we hear 00:14:11.158 --> 00:14:14.207 people's experiences. Sure, it can be frustrating. 00:14:15.107 --> 00:14:21.037 It can also be liberating, or it can be something that can fill people with hope. And someone a few 00:14:21.037 --> 00:14:24.957 days ago that I was meeting with in person just mentioned that one of the things that really 00:14:24.957 --> 00:14:30.852 resonated with them the most was just to hear that you're where you need to be, and that you 00:14:30.897 --> 00:14:35.119 didn't know what you didn't know. And as you are starting to learn more, that there's definitely 00:14:35.357 --> 00:14:40.877 going to be periods where things are just really uncomfortable. But it's also your journey. And as 00:14:40.877 --> 00:14:45.277 And as cliched as that sounds, I think that there are people that are going to hear these 00:14:45.277 --> 00:14:51.117 stories today and they're going to do the old Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication. 00:14:51.485 --> 00:14:55.617 But actually probably communicate a little violently and listen or observe, hear these 00:14:55.617 --> 00:15:01.018 stories and make judgments of why didn't this person just do this other thing. 00:15:01.277 --> 00:15:05.717 But I think it's just so important to hear different people's stories because everybody's 00:15:05.717 --> 00:15:13.237 story, as consistent as the patterns seem to be, are truly different. So this one, the person said, 00:15:13.237 --> 00:15:18.197 Hi Tony, I know you like a good story, so I have taken the liberty to turn my own story into a bit 00:15:18.197 --> 00:15:22.437 of a narrative. Please feel free to read this if you think it would be helpful. I've already changed 00:15:22.437 --> 00:15:28.197 a lot of the details to protect the innocent. Once upon a time in the bustling city of New York, 00:15:28.197 --> 00:15:31.957 okay, come on, we already got to like the fact that this one starts with a once upon a time, 00:15:32.166 --> 00:15:36.091 But once upon a time, in the bustling city of New York, lived a gentle woman named Clara. 00:15:36.433 --> 00:15:40.437 Clara had been told that she was beautiful as a child on the inside and out, yet over the course 00:15:40.437 --> 00:15:45.796 of her adolescence and well into her marriage, she felt anything but beautiful on the inside or 00:15:45.877 --> 00:15:49.957 out. As she looked in the mirror one morning, in her sweats, with her makeup off, and her hair a 00:15:49.957 --> 00:15:55.149 mess, she wondered, what happened? She had been an accomplished writer, but she rarely wrote. 00:15:55.563 --> 00:15:59.488 She felt exhausted, and always told herself that she'd pick up the pen again tomorrow. 00:16:00.001 --> 00:16:06.037 Everything was about tomorrow, but she was beginning to realize that tomorrow seemed to never come and every day seemed to be, 00:16:06.798 --> 00:16:12.377 Not just more of the same. It was actually slowly turning into one long walk in the fog, 00:16:13.262 --> 00:16:15.377 She quickly thought that she... 00:16:16.421 --> 00:16:20.742 She quickly thought she better snap out of it because Henry might see her not smiling, 00:16:21.238 --> 00:16:24.991 and she would hear how difficult that was for him because he worked so hard for her 00:16:25.118 --> 00:16:29.631 and she never seemed to appreciate all that he did. And that was true. She was literally 00:16:29.631 --> 00:16:34.591 standing here just thinking of herself and not him, but in that moment, something just seemed 00:16:34.591 --> 00:16:39.391 off. What she didn't even realize at that time was that she was ensnared in a debilitating 00:16:39.391 --> 00:16:44.022 relationship with Henry, a charming yet manipulative covert narcissist, or at the 00:16:44.191 --> 00:16:47.974 at the very least, an extremely emotionally immature human being. 00:16:49.071 --> 00:16:52.773 Claire had first been drawn to Henry's charisma and the sense of security that he provided, 00:16:53.231 --> 00:16:58.138 which seemed to be the antidote to the loneliness and uncertainty that had pervaded her entire life. 00:16:58.911 --> 00:17:02.954 However, she soon found herself caught in a cycle of emotional abuse and manipulation. 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:07.491 And her confidence was gradually stripped away and she found herself trauma-bonded to 00:17:07.491 --> 00:17:12.334 Henry, unable to leave due to a misplaced loyalty and fear. 00:17:13.211 --> 00:17:16.651 Not only did she let herself go, but Henry had also convinced her that her problems were 00:17:16.651 --> 00:17:21.231 her problems only and she shouldn't put those out on anybody else, that she needed 00:17:21.231 --> 00:17:26.091 to deal with her own stuff, and that she really better figure things out soon because Henry 00:17:26.091 --> 00:17:27.638 was starting to get frustrated as well. 00:17:28.091 --> 00:17:31.831 Clara had all but given up on reaching out to her family because she would often be met, 00:17:32.689 --> 00:17:35.794 with the, hey, at least Henry's nice, or at least he's a good provider. 00:17:35.971 --> 00:17:38.351 And then she would just say, yeah, you're probably right. 00:17:39.011 --> 00:17:41.358 So she truly felt alone. She felt isolated. 00:17:42.429 --> 00:17:46.131 But one spring day, Clara was listening to a podcast by one of her favorite podcast hosts. 00:17:46.131 --> 00:17:47.137 It was called The Virtual Couch. 00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:50.931 And as she started to clean the house, she heard the familiar, Hey, everybody, welcome 00:17:50.931 --> 00:17:51.755 to the virtual couch. 00:17:52.178 --> 00:17:57.166 And on that particular episode, the host was saying something about narcissism and gaslighting. 00:17:57.931 --> 00:18:01.505 And Clara didn't even realize that she had stopped cleaning dead in her tracks. 00:18:02.191 --> 00:18:09.193 And she had just noticed that her heart rate was elevating. And she listened to examples of conversations that she thought that the host, Tony, must 00:18:09.571 --> 00:18:11.182 have overheard from Henry and her. 00:18:12.011 --> 00:18:14.991 She looked at her phone to read more about the episode, and on the bottom of the screen 00:18:14.991 --> 00:18:18.671 it said something like, you may also like, and it listed a few podcasts, and there was 00:18:18.671 --> 00:18:21.787 one called Waking Up the Narcissism, and it was by the same host. 00:18:22.651 --> 00:18:25.931 Now, Clara doesn't even remember clicking on the podcast, but there was that familiar 00:18:25.931 --> 00:18:31.942 voice and as she listened to several episodes in a row, she found herself relating to the victim's stories. 00:18:32.591 --> 00:18:38.291 She realized that she was living their experiences, and that her relationship with Henry was actually 00:18:38.291 --> 00:18:46.732 detrimental to her self-worth and her happiness. realized that she did in fact spend a lot of her days wondering what was wrong with her. 00:18:47.245 --> 00:18:52.171 And yes, she did feel broken. And she questioned often her thoughts and her feelings and her 00:18:52.171 --> 00:18:57.851 emotions. And rightly so, because Henry was very quick to challenge those and say that, 00:18:57.967 --> 00:18:59.641 Well, hey, I'm just doing this for your good. 00:19:00.875 --> 00:19:04.099 But here she's hearing these people's stories and hearing these messages that, 00:19:04.755 --> 00:19:09.619 she's actually her own individual human being and an adult is allowed to have their own thoughts 00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:15.619 and feelings and experiences. But then she found herself feeling guilty that she was starting to 00:19:15.619 --> 00:19:20.499 think this because what would Henry think if he heard her listening to this and she felt maybe I 00:19:20.499 --> 00:19:25.280 can let him listen too, but that just didn't feel right. Something felt wrong about that and she 00:19:25.699 --> 00:19:28.539 She just suddenly got scared and she was frightened. 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.759 She actually decided that this whole experience was a little too overwhelming and she decided 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:38.873 to stop listening to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast and maybe even the virtual couch as well. 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.939 She just needed to just be grateful that at least she did have a house and at least she 00:19:43.939 --> 00:19:47.831 did have a husband who they had some good times. 00:19:49.127 --> 00:19:54.195 But the more that she was now aware that there were other people in a similar situation, 00:19:54.439 --> 00:19:56.041 the more she kept thinking about it. 00:19:56.159 --> 00:20:01.343 And the more she kept thinking about it, she then eventually was led back to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast. 00:20:01.676 --> 00:20:09.346 And then she started doing just a deep dive on all kinds of podcasts and things about narcissism. 00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:12.416 And again, it would feel overwhelming to Clara. 00:20:13.496 --> 00:20:19.159 But this awakening was the spark that Clara needed. She knew that it would be a challenging journey, 00:20:19.159 --> 00:20:26.198 but she decided that she needed to regain her confidence and steady her resolve, and maybe even accept the fact 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:27.702 that she may have to leave Henry. 00:20:28.619 --> 00:20:31.906 She started attending therapy with a renowned psychologist in her area 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:35.795 who she didn't actually mention this at first. 00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:40.659 Clara didn't share this, but she went to a therapist that specialized in helping victims 00:20:40.659 --> 00:20:43.717 in narcissistic abusive relationships. 00:20:43.959 --> 00:20:47.813 Now, the psychologist helped Clara understand that the mechanisms of her trauma bond 00:20:48.219 --> 00:20:50.901 and equipped her with tools to rebuild her confidence. 00:20:51.399 --> 00:20:55.141 They practiced mindfulness exercises, which helped Clara to center herself, 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.199 and to acknowledge that her feelings were her feelings 00:20:58.199 --> 00:20:59.624 and acknowledge them without judgment. 00:21:00.199 --> 00:21:05.799 The therapist also helped Clara to reframe her experiences, encouraging her to view them as evidence 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:10.453 of her strength and resilience, rather than sources of shame and guilt. 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.079 She was hearing the same message on the Waking Up the Narcissist podcast and on these other podcasts 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:16.215 that she was listening to as well. 00:21:16.959 --> 00:21:20.338 And then aside from therapy, Clara started working on her self-esteem. 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:26.117 Slowly but surely, she identified with Tony's examples of raising her emotional baseline. 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.529 And she just started to hope and dream. 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.719 And she suddenly started taking walks and she started to just notice 00:21:33.719 --> 00:21:37.079 that life is actually happening all around her, 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.901 but she had shut down her own life. 00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:44.590 Now, as she worked on her self-esteem and raising that emotional baseline, she started 00:21:44.590 --> 00:21:49.910 to even embrace some of the solitude, relishing the time that she was able to spend working 00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:51.324 on herself and even alone. 00:21:52.090 --> 00:21:55.519 She started to rediscover her love for writing and began documenting her journey. 00:21:56.270 --> 00:22:02.739 Each word she penned down served as a catharsis, and her stories resonated with many who had similar experiences. 00:22:03.530 --> 00:22:07.890 The positive feedback that she started receiving when she started an anonymous blog boosted 00:22:07.890 --> 00:22:12.910 confidence and made her feel very seen and very validated. She then joined a 00:22:12.910 --> 00:22:16.630 local support group and also an online support group that Tony had recommended 00:22:16.630 --> 00:22:21.292 where she was able to meet and listen to and read stories from others who are 00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:29.962 also in similar relationships and that had maybe already been through the process that had been victims of narcissistic relationships. And they, 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:33.710 shared their experiences, they learned from each other, and together they built 00:22:33.710 --> 00:22:37.870 a network of strength and understanding. The support and shared experience 00:22:37.870 --> 00:22:42.030 that she found in the group became a source of empowerment for Clara, and it made her feel less 00:22:42.030 --> 00:22:47.710 alone and bolstered her belief that she could break free from her toxic relationship. Months 00:22:47.710 --> 00:22:54.430 passed, and as Clara grew stronger, both mentally and emotionally, she still had bad days, moments 00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:59.570 where the trauma bond just seemed too strong. As she really did start to raise her emotional baseline 00:22:59.948 --> 00:23:06.430 and not engage in Henry's gaslighting, sure enough, the buttons that he pressed were often 00:23:06.430 --> 00:23:12.155 even worse. And that made it really difficult, but it also made her feel 00:23:12.479 --> 00:23:16.404 empowered to know that this was the experience of so many before her, and, 00:23:16.926 --> 00:23:21.590 that the more that she was able to stand up for herself and have her own thoughts 00:23:21.590 --> 00:23:25.950 and opinions, even if they were just happening in her mind, that she started 00:23:25.950 --> 00:23:32.041 to feel like she was freeing up those emotional calories to do things that really helped her become a better person. 00:23:33.085 --> 00:23:41.052 She would often still doubt her own resolve, but she was patient with herself, knowing that healing wasn't a linear process. 00:23:41.935 --> 00:23:47.935 She wrote herself a note in her phone when she heard Tony say that she didn't know what she didn't know, 00:23:47.935 --> 00:23:53.926 and now she knows, but she's still having a really hard time doing the things that she needs to do or wants to do, 00:23:54.124 --> 00:24:01.920 and that that is one of the most difficult places to be, but that she also could start to see that she was starting to do things more than she wasn't, 00:24:02.136 --> 00:24:05.755 and she started to actually believe that she could eventually become. 00:24:06.268 --> 00:24:09.935 Clara continued to lean on her support system and she continued her therapy, 00:24:09.935 --> 00:24:13.569 but slowly and steadily her confidence built. 00:24:14.334 --> 00:24:17.935 And then one winter morning, a year after she first listened to Waking Up to Narcissism, 00:24:17.935 --> 00:24:19.935 Clara woke up and knew that she was ready. 00:24:19.935 --> 00:24:29.935 Her fear was replaced by resolve, her doubts by confidence, and she approached Henry and she laid out her truths that she had uncovered 00:24:30.196 --> 00:24:33.202 and she firmly and calmly ended their relationship. 00:24:33.968 --> 00:24:37.355 Now, Clara's journey was not easy from there. He tried everything he could to get her back, 00:24:37.355 --> 00:24:41.170 but she grew to love, absolutely love popcorn and watching the show. 00:24:41.575 --> 00:24:43.996 And it required immense strength and patience and courage. 00:24:44.495 --> 00:24:48.215 And she actually took up cycling and created her own relational frame with the phrase, 00:24:48.215 --> 00:24:49.191 do you want to ride bikes? 00:24:49.775 --> 00:24:55.078 Where before, after Henry would verbally abuse her and then come back in and say, hey, what's for dinner? 00:24:55.895 --> 00:25:00.083 Metaphorically then saying, do you want to ride bikes? She always felt like she had to, 00:25:00.535 --> 00:25:04.935 but now she was gonna ride bikes whenever she wanted and it would actually be something 00:25:04.935 --> 00:25:06.835 that would benefit her and make her stronger. 00:25:07.455 --> 00:25:11.867 But her unwavering commitment to regaining her confidence and breaking free from the trauma bond 00:25:12.255 --> 00:25:13.596 eventually led her to freedom. 00:25:14.295 --> 00:25:19.375 Her story is a testament to the power of resilience and a reminder that nobody should feel trapped 00:25:19.375 --> 00:25:22.301 in a relationship that diminishes their self-worth. 00:25:23.318 --> 00:25:33.167 As Clara stepped out into the cold winter day, she breathed in her newfound freedom, and with the warmth of her own strength enveloping her, she was ready to face her future unshackled and free. 00:25:33.914 --> 00:25:41.944 So thank you very much for sharing that message, Clara. I'm assuming that the writer is, that's based on her own story. 00:25:42.169 --> 00:26:06.008 And I want to next though, share a story of this is more of the kind of stories that I get where people are saying, okay, I don't know how I can escape this right now, whether it's a financial commitment, kids, just so many different things, where people will hear the stories of others, maybe what, like Clara, and hear these stories about gaslighting, or they'll be a part of a group. 00:26:06.304 --> 00:26:16.008 And then they will still go back to that old narrative, that old chestnut of what is wrong with me? And there is nothing because your mileage not may vary, your mileage will vary. 00:26:16.243 --> 00:26:25.008 And so everybody's experience is based off of all the different things that they bring into the relationship and the things that they bring from their own childhood and adolescence. 00:26:25.008 --> 00:26:31.408 And then every family system is unique and different, but yet what you're doing, 00:26:31.408 --> 00:26:34.823 if you're listening to this right now, and if you're starting to gain that resolve, 00:26:35.168 --> 00:26:36.795 then you're doing what you need to be doing. 00:26:37.288 --> 00:26:43.798 So let me share a story that's gonna probably resonate with more people than one would think, 00:26:44.048 --> 00:26:49.236 and it may also feel a little bit, I don't wanna just throw the judgment sad on here, 00:26:49.668 --> 00:26:54.466 but I just think this one is so, so real of where a lot of people are right now. 00:26:54.928 --> 00:27:01.608 This person said that they have been a longtime listener of the podcasts and they said that they are forever 00:27:01.608 --> 00:27:04.936 working toward a PhD in everything that has to do with narcissism. 00:27:05.468 --> 00:27:09.284 And they do feel like they are in a much different spot than where they were a few years ago. 00:27:09.628 --> 00:27:13.524 So much growth, but also pain and then more growth. 00:27:14.388 --> 00:27:18.844 And she said, you read a letter from a woman a while ago who was drowning in the middle of it all. 00:27:19.348 --> 00:27:24.188 She was desperately seeking something to hold on to, some sort of guide or hope for getting through 00:27:24.188 --> 00:27:28.388 narcissistic relationship. I felt her pain and I wanted to tell her that the 00:27:28.388 --> 00:27:33.995 secret to staying in it until you can manage to arrange getting out is to let to go. 00:27:35.021 --> 00:27:42.565 And I feel like it's that line alone that was what led me to build this episode around this letter in particular, 00:27:42.871 --> 00:27:50.145 because until you can manage to arrange getting out, because there are people that do feel stuck, 00:27:50.658 --> 00:27:56.546 and they are starting to wake up to a lot of the immaturity and narcissism, but just feel so stuck. 00:27:56.690 --> 00:28:00.912 So she said, you have to get to the place where you just don't care anymore. 00:28:01.344 --> 00:28:04.621 You truly know the relationship is dead and you honestly stop trying to make it work. 00:28:05.171 --> 00:28:10.371 You stop caring what they think or want or need or expect or desire because it doesn't 00:28:10.371 --> 00:28:11.553 matter to you anymore. 00:28:12.051 --> 00:28:15.027 Only then are you able to live in it without reactivity. 00:28:15.571 --> 00:28:18.651 And the funny thing is, even though you've radically changed how you're showing up 00:28:18.651 --> 00:28:21.104 for the party, they don't behave any differently. 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:23.193 Will you still get triggered? You bet. 00:28:23.811 --> 00:28:27.145 But it hurts less when you don't place any importance on their opinion of you, which, 00:28:27.591 --> 00:28:28.819 is a moving target anyway. 00:28:29.314 --> 00:28:34.076 It's going to take time, quite possibly years, of trying, failing, and getting back up again. 00:28:34.571 --> 00:28:38.571 But if you are doing your personal work, you will have the tools to calm your nervous system 00:28:38.571 --> 00:28:43.295 and recognize gaslighting and manipulation and coercive control and power plays. 00:28:43.951 --> 00:28:47.411 It will always suck to live through these interactions, but you'll see it for what 00:28:47.411 --> 00:28:49.131 it is and not be surprised. 00:28:49.722 --> 00:28:52.731 You'll understand that every attempt at communication, even over the most mundane 00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:56.303 topics will be turned into a verbal competition, which they do plan on winning. 00:28:56.951 --> 00:29:00.151 So you'll let them win in the first few minutes because you don't care, it simply 00:29:00.151 --> 00:29:00.984 doesn't matter to you. 00:29:01.511 --> 00:29:06.115 You will still have, quote, the good times, when their mood dictates, but those bread 00:29:06.311 --> 00:29:08.311 crumbs won't be enough to reel you back in. 00:29:09.023 --> 00:29:13.263 You will be able to pick apart how their needs were being met so of course they were agreeable, 00:29:13.551 --> 00:29:16.333 easy to have around, and maybe even at times fun. 00:29:16.931 --> 00:29:20.843 But it has nothing to do with you or your efforts and rests solely on them having escaped 00:29:21.023 --> 00:29:23.337 feelings of any negative emotions. 00:29:24.111 --> 00:29:29.311 You can stay as long as you need to when you let it go, and it is important to have one 00:29:29.311 --> 00:29:32.711 person who's committed to supporting you, who will allow you to process through your 00:29:32.711 --> 00:29:34.040 own negative emotions with them. 00:29:34.911 --> 00:29:38.821 That's what I wanted to tell this woman, and I wanted to give her just a great big hug. 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:44.267 One of the main questions that I get, and I received one of these over the weekend, is it can be simple. 00:29:44.357 --> 00:29:50.001 The person said, how long should somebody stay in a narcissistic marriage if they feel isolated and alone? 00:29:50.623 --> 00:29:55.196 And the short answer is that no one should stay in an emotionally harmful or an abusive relationship, 00:29:55.673 --> 00:29:58.013 including one where they feel isolated and alone. 00:29:58.383 --> 00:30:05.490 Because just remembering that narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships involve patterns of manipulation and gaslighting and emotional abuse 00:30:05.490 --> 00:30:09.644 that can have serious impacts on your own mental health and your well-being. 00:30:10.905 --> 00:30:15.690 But I think what is difficult is that decision to leave a relationship, 00:30:15.690 --> 00:30:18.690 especially a marriage, that is highly personal. 00:30:18.690 --> 00:30:23.067 And it depends on a number of factors, including things like safety, 00:30:23.370 --> 00:30:27.690 financial resources, children, other logistical and emotional considerations. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.130 So that decision making process is going to take time. 00:30:31.457 --> 00:30:38.686 And it is so important to approach it without judgment. but that can be so hard to step outside of your own ego 00:30:38.956 --> 00:30:42.250 and not feel like what is wrong with you and you are doing something wrong. 00:30:42.250 --> 00:30:47.290 And so I really think there are some important steps that you really just need to keep in mind 00:30:47.290 --> 00:30:49.850 as you are starting to wake up to this entire process. 00:30:50.037 --> 00:30:54.730 And I am still saying that this is where if you are still trying to decide is the relationship viable? 00:30:54.730 --> 00:30:56.987 Is this just a situation where we don't know what we don't know? 00:30:57.419 --> 00:31:01.200 Can I get my husband or wife to go to counseling, to therapy? 00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:04.130 Will they listen to courses? Will they do podcasts? 00:31:04.130 --> 00:31:06.836 Are they willing to sit with some discomfort and self-reflect? 00:31:07.655 --> 00:31:09.951 But here are the things that do need to be considered safety. 00:31:10.050 --> 00:31:13.850 If you feel or worry that you will be in physical danger, it's going to be really 00:31:13.850 --> 00:31:18.650 difficult. And you may need to contact the domestic violence hotline or even be 00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:20.570 prepared to talk with local law enforcement. 00:31:20.924 --> 00:31:25.010 And I think when we start out with safety first, it can just show how difficult 00:31:25.416 --> 00:31:27.850 navigating this situation can be. 00:31:28.693 --> 00:31:32.130 And to people that are not in these type of relationships, then they hear something 00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:35.418 like that. And they say, yeah, just reach out, just call. But I know that I work with 00:31:35.643 --> 00:31:40.910 plenty of people that they don't feel like they can even call because their phone may 00:31:40.910 --> 00:31:45.450 be being monitored, their spouse may be checking on phone records, and there's just so much 00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:51.170 control. But after safety, then seek professional help. Seek guidance from a professional counselor 00:31:51.379 --> 00:31:54.737 or a therapist that's experienced in this narcissistic or emotional abuse. They can 00:31:55.090 --> 00:31:59.184 provide you with strategies for coping, resources that if you do feel like you need to leave, 00:31:59.710 --> 00:32:01.812 and then emotional support during the process. 00:32:02.110 --> 00:32:06.233 Because when all you're doing is kicking things around in your own head, then they are gonna tend, 00:32:06.683 --> 00:32:07.565 to go toward the negative. 00:32:08.110 --> 00:32:11.994 And it's so important, as our fictitious Clara mentioned, to find a support network. 00:32:12.550 --> 00:32:18.990 Reaching out to trusted friends and family members, but again, not the Switzerland friends or family members, 00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:22.761 the ones that are gonna give you the well, at least this, but joining that support group. 00:32:23.150 --> 00:32:27.154 Isolation is a tactic that is used in abusive relationships. 00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:31.511 So having a network of support can be beneficial and it can be online, it can be in person, 00:32:31.835 --> 00:32:36.192 but having people that are having these shared experiences It's just. 00:32:36.669 --> 00:32:42.039 A phenomenal place to be. And I find that a lot of people that I talk with, and sometimes I get 00:32:42.170 --> 00:32:46.279 emails from people that are just saying, here's all the things I'm going through and help and I 00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:50.759 need advice and I don't know what to do next. And if I suggest joining the private women's 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.999 Facebook group or soon the men's group, I will often hear, well, yeah, but I just don't want, 00:32:54.999 --> 00:32:58.839 I don't want to be in there because I don't want it to be so negative, or I don't want people to 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:03.001 know who I am or, and I really just worry that those are a lot of just the yeah, buts. 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:07.319 It's the fear of the unknown. But education can be the key. 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:09.960 So we've got safety, professional help, support network, 00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:14.919 but education, starting to learn about narcissistic abuse and its impact on victims, 00:33:14.919 --> 00:33:18.053 and understanding this dynamic can be very, 00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:23.598 I mean, when you start to understand what's going on or that dynamic of what's happening in the relationship, 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:25.669 that can be validating and empowering. 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:30.629 And helping you start to make some sense of the nonsense that is happening. 00:33:31.043 --> 00:33:36.030 And then just slowly but surely, you can start to just think about and lay out a plan. 00:33:36.399 --> 00:33:39.099 Because if you do decide to leave, develop a safety plan. 00:33:39.099 --> 00:33:45.179 I know it may sound dramatic, but it is absolutely normal for people to start securing finances 00:33:45.179 --> 00:33:51.478 or starting to look ahead to find a safe place to stay and ensuring that children, if there are any, are protected. 00:33:51.899 --> 00:33:57.499 But remember that you do not have to face this alone at all, because there are the groups that are available, 00:33:57.499 --> 00:34:02.579 there's resources available, and if you're in the US, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is available 00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:06.323 at 1-800-799-SAFE, 7233, 00:34:06.679 --> 00:34:08.399 or you can access help through their website. 00:34:08.399 --> 00:34:13.719 But the most important thing to remember is that everybody deserves to be in a relationship 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.666 where they are respected, where they are loved, and where they feel safe, 00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:22.199 and where they are allowed to have their own opinion and their own experiences. 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.719 And I so often worry that people, when I'm putting this out there, 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:31.119 and the reason why I wanna just continually beat this drum is that when I say we didn't know what we didn't know 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.257 if we were in emotionally immature, unhealthy relationships, 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.128 then we absolutely don't know what a healthy relationship looks like. 00:34:38.614 --> 00:34:46.248 And so, it is something that you deserve. And you deserve to be able to be validated, have your opinions heard and understood. 00:34:46.536 --> 00:34:49.309 It should be okay for you to make mistakes, because we all do. 00:34:49.894 --> 00:34:52.802 And have somebody that's there to even just laugh about things with. 00:34:53.464 --> 00:34:58.815 You know, oh that happened, and not say, there you go again, or here's what you're doing, or what you need to understand. 00:34:59.778 --> 00:35:05.387 That it's not healthy in a relationship to have the other person continually telling you 00:35:05.464 --> 00:35:09.483 what you need to do, what you need to know, what you're not understanding about yourself 00:35:09.584 --> 00:35:13.966 because you actually are the best person to be the expert on yourself. 00:35:14.504 --> 00:35:19.745 And so part of this whole awakening process is starting to really understand who you are. 00:35:19.864 --> 00:35:22.923 And I would not continue to ask someone, who am I, 00:35:23.304 --> 00:35:29.360 if that person is someone that is telling you things that do not make you feel like you are of worth 00:35:29.484 --> 00:35:32.565 because that is gonna be emotionally damaging 00:35:32.944 --> 00:35:38.497 and you are going to waste a significant amount of your life, your time, your emotional calories 00:35:38.584 --> 00:35:41.054 trying to determine, am I okay? 00:35:41.344 --> 00:35:48.064 Or am I broken or am I of worth? Because you are, you absolutely are of worth. 00:35:48.064 --> 00:35:51.289 Not broken, nothing wrong, you are of worth. 00:35:52.404 --> 00:35:59.436 So I will end here with a bit of an impromptu story. Once I was serving in a church position, a church calling, 00:35:59.864 --> 00:36:06.107 and there were a bunch of us that were in a meeting and you like to start with a good old hymn, and an opening hymn. 00:36:06.704 --> 00:36:10.194 And there wasn't anyone that immediately jumped up and said that they knew how to play the piano. 00:36:10.704 --> 00:36:15.184 A good friend of mine named Tom said, well, I played a little bit back in college, 00:36:15.184 --> 00:36:18.278 and that had been a long time before that night. 00:36:18.944 --> 00:36:22.024 So he jumps up there and he starts playing, and I will never forget, 00:36:22.024 --> 00:36:26.224 and I don't even know why it just worked the way it did, but he started playing, 00:36:26.224 --> 00:36:31.384 and he got about 3 4ths of the way through the hymn. We were all singing, it was a good mood, 00:36:31.384 --> 00:36:32.475 Everybody felt jovial. 00:36:32.944 --> 00:36:36.904 But then he just started to peter out and plunk some keys that just didn't really seem 00:36:36.904 --> 00:36:37.795 to be the right keys. 00:36:38.384 --> 00:36:42.989 And he just stopped. And we all just sort of looked at each other and it just felt right. 00:36:43.344 --> 00:36:48.058 We had enough. We had enough of that hymn. The mood, the feeling that we needed was there. 00:36:48.304 --> 00:36:51.847 So why belabor something that had gone pretty well? 00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:56.601 So hopefully you've gathered some information from the stories that were told today. 00:36:56.784 --> 00:37:01.984 And so much like Tom stopped playing that hymn, I think I'll stop recording this episode. 00:37:02.184 --> 00:37:04.829 And if you have some follow-up questions, please send them my way, 00:37:04.984 --> 00:37:07.349 info or contact at tonyoverbay.com. 00:37:07.864 --> 00:37:10.311 And I would love to hear your stories. I would love to hear if you'd like to be a part, 00:37:10.864 --> 00:37:12.022 of either the men's or women's Facebook group. 00:37:13.024 --> 00:37:14.155 And then I will see you. 00:37:14.160 --> 00:37:55.239 Music.