WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.600 Music. 00:00:07.597 --> 00:00:11.333 To episode 73 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay, 00:00:11.487 --> 00:00:18.127 and I am gonna jump right in today because I've got a lot to get to and some really good examples 00:00:18.127 --> 00:00:19.228 of what we're gonna talk about today. 00:00:19.876 --> 00:00:24.657 So I am a tiny bit, I don't know, obsessed or fixated or hyper-focused, 00:00:25.116 --> 00:00:28.267 on this concept of we don't know what we don't know, 00:00:28.897 --> 00:00:34.226 but yet it seems that by default, we often have a hard time simply saying, I don't know. 00:00:35.099 --> 00:00:40.357 And I'll go on a couple of tangents here. I've been listening to a lot of the Lori Vallow Daybell trial. 00:00:40.843 --> 00:00:44.107 My daughter, Sydney, and I will be covering that more on Murder on the Couch in 00:00:44.107 --> 00:00:47.267 the coming weeks because there is so much narcissism there. 00:00:47.507 --> 00:00:57.307 I believe there's a very narcissistic family system, narcissistic, magical thinking. Anyway, there is a part where Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy, unfortunately 00:00:57.307 --> 00:00:59.018 dies in the middle of the night. 00:00:59.187 --> 00:01:03.307 Now, my opinion that he or Lori's brother, Alex Cox, killed Tammy. 00:01:03.307 --> 00:01:10.467 But the point being when they interviewed the police person and the coroner that showed up at the scene of the crime 00:01:10.907 --> 00:01:16.307 Or at the time it wasn't viewed as a crime. It was just viewed as an event someone had passed. 00:01:17.005 --> 00:01:22.307 Chad shares this opinion about what happened and I'm probably getting a lot of this incorrect 00:01:22.406 --> 00:01:30.427 But in essence He says that he noticed That she had died after she had fallen out of bed in the middle of the night and she had been cold to the touch 00:01:30.679 --> 00:01:35.649 One of the people testifying said something like, Chad told her when she got there that 00:01:35.847 --> 00:01:42.187 he thinks that after she died and she started to become stiff, that then there was more 00:01:42.187 --> 00:01:44.651 weight in her feet because she was stiff. 00:01:45.167 --> 00:01:50.871 So then that weight eventually tipped her out of bed. So she fell out of bed, but here's the thing. 00:01:51.547 --> 00:01:58.187 So he believes that must be what would happen if somebody died and their feet are hanging 00:01:58.187 --> 00:02:03.132 over the bed that the feet must eventually weigh more and then that person will tip and 00:02:03.487 --> 00:02:09.547 fall out of bed. Yeah, thanks Chad. That makes sense to me. So I'm going to go with it. There 00:02:09.547 --> 00:02:13.547 comes his memory and now anytime he's probably thought about that memory, rehearsed that 00:02:13.547 --> 00:02:19.167 memory, then he's packing it in with all kinds of things that make sense to him. There are 00:02:19.167 --> 00:02:24.667 people who enter the crime scene and well, again, not a crime scene. There are people, 00:02:25.134 --> 00:02:30.274 that show up and there's this little problem called science. And these are people that 00:02:30.436 --> 00:02:35.507 do go or they're first responders and they do this for a living. So they actually understand 00:02:35.507 --> 00:02:41.147 the way the body works after death and what he's saying doesn't only just not make sense, 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:43.472 It basically can't happen that way. 00:02:43.687 --> 00:02:47.010 So now they know this guy is up to no good. 00:02:47.667 --> 00:02:52.877 But he doesn't know what he doesn't know. And he lies. And this is why the process of becoming 00:02:52.877 --> 00:02:59.117 more emotionally mature is really about becoming more true to yourself, living an authentic life, 00:02:59.117 --> 00:03:04.317 being more consistent, because you are showing up in situations honest. Here's what I know. 00:03:05.032 --> 00:03:10.397 Here's what happened, and here's what I also don't know. This is why when you watch interrogation 00:03:10.397 --> 00:03:16.237 videos, they are so fascinating because the police have caught someone, they've arrested 00:03:16.237 --> 00:03:21.272 at somebody, I'm not saying that they're false accusations made, but for the most part, the 00:03:21.597 --> 00:03:26.957 police have gathered a lot of data and they bring somebody in because that person is saying things 00:03:26.957 --> 00:03:32.477 that just don't make any sense to the people that do this for a living. I run into this in therapy 00:03:32.477 --> 00:03:38.237 often where people are telling me the look at that concept around triangulation. I see over and over 00:03:38.237 --> 00:03:43.597 the emotionally immature person showing up in a couple's therapy session and taking the entire 00:03:43.597 --> 00:03:48.157 time to just talk about that, you know, he and his doctor were both talking about 00:03:48.157 --> 00:03:53.257 his wife. He and all of his friends were noticing these things about his wife and 00:03:53.397 --> 00:04:00.997 those are not things that happen in normal everyday life or with emotionally mature people. I remember long ago somebody who I had sent an 00:04:00.997 --> 00:04:10.917 invoice to that they hadn't paid their bill. Now my system sends out auto reminders and what is so cool is that it tells me when the person opens the 00:04:10.917 --> 00:04:15.117 message says that here's the time that they viewed the message. So I eventually 00:04:15.117 --> 00:04:19.717 have to ask this person, hey do you need any additional information or time or 00:04:19.717 --> 00:04:24.437 help in paying my bill? And then they said, oh man I haven't even seen a bill. 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:26.079 So, then... 00:04:26.683 --> 00:04:31.573 I showed them that they had, well, what I saw, the system behind the scenes showed me 00:04:31.573 --> 00:04:35.893 that they had actually at least seen and opened five out of the seven of the reminders that 00:04:35.893 --> 00:04:40.753 showed the bill. Now, this client also had wanted me to be blunt and honest with them. And while, 00:04:41.221 --> 00:04:45.573 I don't know, I don't have the need to be blunt. I feel like that sounds very dramatic, 00:04:45.758 --> 00:04:50.773 but I'll be honest. That's okay. And I just need to be. So I took that as an opportunity in a 00:04:50.773 --> 00:04:54.887 future session after they had then paid the bill. And then they had set up another appointment 00:04:55.256 --> 00:05:00.133 to introduce this concept that they didn't know that I knew that they had opened the 00:05:00.133 --> 00:05:04.693 messages. Now, I probably need to do a better job of using my own four pillars and assuming 00:05:04.693 --> 00:05:09.453 good intentions, or there's a reason why they didn't tell me the truth. And I can't just 00:05:09.453 --> 00:05:13.213 say they're wrong. And I could say, tell me more. Maybe they don't use that email. Maybe 00:05:13.213 --> 00:05:16.653 they had been hacked and people were reading all their messages and he never saw the bill, 00:05:16.653 --> 00:05:20.573 all of those things. But when I brought it up to him and then was able to show him how 00:05:20.573 --> 00:05:25.373 my system works. Unfortunately, he still couldn't take ownership at first. He saw 00:05:25.373 --> 00:05:30.433 that my system showed that five of the seven messages had been open. So he sees 00:05:30.433 --> 00:05:34.493 that opportunity and he said, oh no, okay, I see, I see. And I feel like he saw the 00:05:34.493 --> 00:05:38.013 one of those that wasn't open. And he said, I thought you were asking me if I 00:05:38.013 --> 00:05:42.173 had received a bill on the 20th or whatever day that was. And he said, but I 00:05:42.173 --> 00:05:46.693 didn't. And I smiled and I let a little silence enter the room. And then I was 00:05:46.693 --> 00:05:52.213 very proud of him because he then just kind of went a little bit more flat and just said. 00:05:52.951 --> 00:05:57.493 You know, I just, uh, I just didn't want to stop and take the time to pay you. I guess 00:05:57.493 --> 00:06:00.594 it wasn't as important as whatever I was doing at that time. 00:06:01.576 --> 00:06:15.666 And I thought, oh, we have a moment right there. But then he quickly went victim and said, geez, what's wrong with me? And I stopped him. And I just said, oh, hey, OK, here's this amazing moment to self-confront, sit with this discomfort and share it with somebody safe. 00:06:15.666 --> 00:06:25.266 I'm a safe place. Let's just start from here. And I would like to say that that person saw that as their aha moment. They continued in therapy and now they are completely self-actualized. 00:06:25.266 --> 00:06:31.546 They're honest about everything, but no, he continued in therapy for a little bit, but I really do think in that moment 00:06:31.868 --> 00:06:35.446 We had a temporary breakthrough, but then darn you confabulation, 00:06:36.099 --> 00:06:44.826 He left that appointment feeling validated because I was happy with him But by the time he got home, I think the discomfort kicked back in it couldn't be that he was the bad guy. 00:06:45.606 --> 00:06:51.926 I think he eventually went with the he has a lack of time for therapy He had thrown a joke or two out there about man your rates pretty high 00:06:52.222 --> 00:06:56.266 but I knew from our conversations prior that he not only had the time but he 00:06:56.266 --> 00:06:59.986 also had the money. So it broke my heart that we missed that opportunity to 00:06:59.986 --> 00:07:05.294 really self-confront, to really grow, sit with that discomfort, realize how 00:07:05.586 --> 00:07:10.766 empowering it can be to take ownership. Now I also think there are very casual 00:07:10.766 --> 00:07:14.426 or pedestrian or innocent ways this occurs too. Let's just say that your wife 00:07:14.426 --> 00:07:17.506 says, hey why do you think the Johnson's kid dropped out of college and joined 00:07:17.506 --> 00:07:20.940 the army so soon? And the husband might say, hey he probably hates college. You know 00:07:21.306 --> 00:07:25.346 he was probably going because his parents were forcing him to, so then I bet he did 00:07:25.346 --> 00:07:29.762 the exact opposite of what they wanted him to do, and he joined the army, and man I bet that ticked him off. 00:07:30.500 --> 00:07:36.386 Okay, or now let's enter the living room of the Johnsons. The son has wanted to go to the army since he was a kid. 00:07:36.386 --> 00:07:40.506 The parents have always said, you go, we support you, but he said, I feel like I have to at 00:07:40.506 --> 00:07:43.895 least try college, and the parents said, hey champ, whatever you need. 00:07:45.174 --> 00:07:50.066 Or perhaps a drug cartel has threatened their grandmother, but they can't tell anybody 00:07:50.066 --> 00:07:55.666 or the cartel will murder their grandma. So then the kid drops out of college vowing to become an 00:07:55.666 --> 00:08:00.946 army ranger and devote his entire life to planning on getting back at that drug cartel. You can tell 00:08:00.946 --> 00:08:05.826 I'm a kid that grew up in the 80s and that was the plot of so many movies. Or he was in college 00:08:06.005 --> 00:08:11.426 and he watched the movie Saving Private Ryan and he felt a call to join the army or, or, or. But 00:08:11.426 --> 00:08:16.386 the bottom line is nobody knows. But the kid and his parents, and quite frankly, just because 00:08:16.386 --> 00:08:19.906 somebody does something in my therapist world doesn't even mean that they necessarily know 00:08:19.906 --> 00:08:26.226 why they're doing it. It's more of a check this out then I don't know I dropped out of college I joined the Army. 00:08:25.918 --> 00:08:30.716 But back to the husband and wife conversation, if the guy is just being a regular guy, he throws out something like, 00:08:30.878 --> 00:08:34.740 I wonder if he did it because he felt like he had to, or the wife says, yeah, I wonder that too. 00:08:34.785 --> 00:08:39.754 Or maybe, I don't know, maybe it's because he wanted to get out of the podunk town that we all grew up in. 00:08:39.826 --> 00:08:48.768 But the truth is they don't know. But they also didn't really go after each other or try to burn each other's thoughts or opinions down to the ground. 00:08:48.768 --> 00:08:50.989 Down to the ground. They didn't have to make one person right, 00:08:51.088 --> 00:08:52.331 the other person wrong. 00:08:52.808 --> 00:08:58.146 Now, next up, if they have been doing a little, I don't know, air quote, doing their own work. 00:08:58.628 --> 00:09:01.648 Then maybe listen to a little virtual couch, a little waking up to narcissism, 00:09:01.792 --> 00:09:04.349 and they hear about this concept of nonviolent communication, 00:09:04.568 --> 00:09:08.580 and they realize, you know what, we're actually making an observation and a judgment all at once, 00:09:08.988 --> 00:09:12.010 and so we need to separate that judgment from the observation. 00:09:12.488 --> 00:09:15.781 So then they might bring a little bit more awareness to it and say, but you know, I don't know. 00:09:15.928 --> 00:09:21.597 I'm observing that he dropped out, went to the army, there's my judgment, but I guess the reality is I'm not really sure. 00:09:22.228 --> 00:09:26.968 And that might be a little more evolved than just both saying, I don't really know, 00:09:26.968 --> 00:09:32.490 because they're recognizing, oh, this is what I'm doing. This is why I go to that place of making that judgment. 00:09:32.568 --> 00:09:34.254 So now there's a little more awareness. 00:09:34.448 --> 00:09:39.403 Now, if the wife in this scenario, let's just say is more emotionally immature 00:09:39.528 --> 00:09:45.168 or the narcissist, then this conversation becomes her opportunity to get her narcissistic supply 00:09:45.168 --> 00:09:47.064 or to take control or power. 00:09:47.328 --> 00:09:50.428 And if I refer to Julie Hall's article that I referenced a couple of weeks ago 00:09:50.428 --> 00:09:56.121 on the antagonistic attachment style of the narcissist, then this might fit into competition. 00:09:56.808 --> 00:10:01.531 Now, that means we both can't hold our own opinions. So therefore, if you don't agree with me, 00:10:01.882 --> 00:10:07.085 if you think I'm wrong, and how dare you, and now I must burn your opinion down to the ground. 00:10:07.528 --> 00:10:10.208 Julie said competition. So the competition's another type 00:10:10.208 --> 00:10:13.855 of relational antagonistic characteristic of the narcissist. 00:10:14.008 --> 00:10:19.608 Narcissists approach relationships oppositionally, viewing other people, including and often, 00:10:19.608 --> 00:10:22.812 especially their family members, as competitors for resources. 00:10:22.908 --> 00:10:25.936 Those resources may be tangible things, but often they are intangible, 00:10:26.488 --> 00:10:32.058 interpersonal resources such as attention, acknowledgement, inclusion, respect, admiration, affection. 00:10:32.368 --> 00:10:36.888 I would add to the narcissist or the emotionally mature, for some reason there's this bounty on truth 00:10:36.888 --> 00:10:38.791 that there can only be one truth. 00:10:39.728 --> 00:10:45.354 So then seeing life as this zero-sum game, she said, in which they can only win if somebody else loses, 00:10:45.561 --> 00:10:48.397 or therefore they can only be right if somebody else is wrong, 00:10:48.991 --> 00:10:52.478 then narcissists continually work to undermine and one-up those around them, 00:10:52.592 --> 00:10:54.905 while asserting their superiority and greater entitlement. 00:10:55.527 --> 00:11:00.154 So then typical competitive narcissistic behaviors within families and other social groups include, 00:11:00.685 --> 00:11:04.718 comparing, bragging, over-talking, blaming, cheating, exaggerating, 00:11:05.069 --> 00:11:07.599 diminishing, excluding, applying double standards, 00:11:08.175 --> 00:11:12.958 distorting and withholding information and taking undue credit. So here there might be 00:11:12.958 --> 00:11:17.998 exaggerating. There might be, you know, exaggerating, well, I definitely know because I've talked to the 00:11:17.998 --> 00:11:22.558 mom or I've talked to the kid or diminishing. Really? You think that that's what they're saying? 00:11:23.821 --> 00:11:27.438 But then if we just, I don't know, spin this wheel of narcissistic replies, 00:11:28.124 --> 00:11:32.078 let's, yeah, let's go with diminishing. So then the wife might say, really? She says. 00:11:32.949 --> 00:11:37.598 You think that he felt like he had to. Well, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. 00:11:37.855 --> 00:11:41.918 But if you spin the wheel again and we land on mocking, then she might make fun of him 00:11:42.194 --> 00:11:46.560 and say, oh, hi, I'm their son. I have to join the army because I'm dumb like my husband. 00:11:47.318 --> 00:11:51.238 And then let's go to, let's spin it again, taking undue credit, maybe with a side of 00:11:51.238 --> 00:11:57.078 gaslighting, some bragging as well, saying, well, you would have asked me my opinion before just offering yours. 00:11:57.078 --> 00:12:01.038 You might know that he came to me and asked for my advice and I said, well, what do you 00:12:01.038 --> 00:12:02.332 want to do? And he said, I don't know. 00:12:03.038 --> 00:12:06.347 I'm clueless, but I know that you're very smart and wise and that's why I came to you. 00:12:07.478 --> 00:12:11.198 So now in my private women's Facebook group, somebody shared a very good example of this 00:12:11.198 --> 00:12:14.620 and I asked the group for more examples. So I want to read some of those today. 00:12:15.158 --> 00:12:19.923 And in this particular example, the woman was talking about using a particular tool to fix something. 00:12:20.478 --> 00:12:23.718 She said she didn't necessarily know about the tool or actually let me let me read this 00:12:23.718 --> 00:12:26.504 and there's some things that have been changed for confidentiality's sake. 00:12:27.548 --> 00:12:31.038 She said, I got gas lit to the fullest the other day, and I have to share. 00:12:31.038 --> 00:12:34.458 My parents had a leak in their roof at their house, and lucky for me, my narcissistic or 00:12:34.458 --> 00:12:38.711 emotionally immature husband is a contractor. He arranged for a roofing guy to come check out the roof. 00:12:39.278 --> 00:12:43.098 So he called me and he told me that, okay, you can call your dad and tell him to get 00:12:43.098 --> 00:12:44.607 on the ladder, clear out the gutters. 00:12:44.998 --> 00:12:50.398 Now she said, I don't know why, but I didn't even really know much about what the gutters 00:12:50.398 --> 00:12:52.268 do or why that was significant. 00:12:52.418 --> 00:12:55.914 And she said, I know that sounds lame and I'm sure I could figure it out, but I truly 00:12:56.318 --> 00:13:01.118 just didn't know what I didn't know about roofs and gutters and contractors. So I did 00:13:01.118 --> 00:13:05.238 call my dad and I said that my husband said, get up on the ladder and clear out this one 00:13:05.238 --> 00:13:10.158 section of gutters before the contractor gets there to look on the roof. And then my dad, 00:13:10.158 --> 00:13:14.038 he just said to trust him. Oh, my husband said, trust him. And that had to do with where 00:13:14.038 --> 00:13:17.564 the leak was. And it would be better for everybody if the contractor didn't think that the roof, 00:13:18.038 --> 00:13:22.398 had been completely neglected. So I called my dad. I relayed the information because 00:13:22.398 --> 00:13:27.863 I paid particular attention to the information because I don't know about roofs and gutters and what's going on. 00:13:28.218 --> 00:13:30.888 And my dad said, okay, I feel good about doing something. 00:13:31.318 --> 00:13:35.458 And my dad wondered, okay, do plugged up gutters and maybe that was part of the problem. 00:13:35.458 --> 00:13:39.558 And he knew what the problem was and he knew my husband didn't like looking bad. 00:13:39.558 --> 00:13:43.318 So maybe the roofing guy would make fun of him if his own father-in-law's roof had gone 00:13:43.318 --> 00:13:46.714 bad because the son-in-law of the year didn't go clean out the gutters. 00:13:46.878 --> 00:13:47.992 So we had a good laugh. 00:13:48.937 --> 00:13:52.227 So then I call my husband back and I tell him about the conversation with my dad and I thought 00:13:52.227 --> 00:13:57.747 we would all get a laugh. And here comes the gaslighting. So he freaks out and he says that 00:13:57.747 --> 00:14:01.747 he never told me to tell my dad to clear out the gutters. Now I panic that I just ruined my dad's 00:14:01.747 --> 00:14:05.987 chances of getting his roof fixed because I can't do this simple relay of information correctly. 00:14:06.762 --> 00:14:12.627 But I've been making an extra effort lately to remember what I say and what he says because I'm 00:14:12.627 --> 00:14:17.827 tired of this game. I know he said what he said because I was listening so intently to make sure 00:14:17.827 --> 00:14:18.672 sure that I got it right. 00:14:19.187 --> 00:14:22.627 I don't know anything about roofs or gutters, then ask me what kind of moisturizer might help 00:14:22.627 --> 00:14:26.918 on the dried up shingles on the roof, and I'm your girl. Cleaning the gutters, is that a thing? 00:14:27.667 --> 00:14:32.687 So I tell him, no way, you told me to tell my dad to get on the ladder and clean the gutters. 00:14:32.687 --> 00:14:37.227 My dad is old, I darn near challenged my husband when he first said it, that you really want my dad 00:14:37.227 --> 00:14:42.060 to be on a ladder, but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, and then he proceeds to tell me that I never listen. 00:14:42.307 --> 00:14:46.727 Maybe I was on my phone playing a game at the same time and I made it up, because I don't ever pay attention 00:14:46.727 --> 00:14:50.627 what he's saying and I come up with my own stuff all the time so why would he 00:14:50.627 --> 00:14:55.547 tell me to have my dad climb up on a ladder and he almost gets me again, 00:14:56.076 --> 00:15:00.067 because for a split second I thought I was why was I watching TV maybe a car 00:15:00.067 --> 00:15:04.088 commercial came on I was listening to that wait no I was not watching TV it, 00:15:04.547 --> 00:15:07.947 was silent at my house because I was listening to my podcast on my phone and 00:15:07.947 --> 00:15:15.527 you can't have a phone call and a podcast at the same time okay whoo I'm not crazy she said I almost wrote down the instructions even to make sure I 00:15:15.527 --> 00:15:18.527 I didn't mess it up, but I figured it was only a couple of things and I can remember that. 00:15:18.527 --> 00:15:21.382 I was listening, I remember correctly, he said it. 00:15:22.047 --> 00:15:26.648 But now I'm defending myself. You did tell me that. I don't know anything about roofs. 00:15:26.927 --> 00:15:30.096 Why would I make that up when I know what's at stake? 00:15:30.607 --> 00:15:33.463 I was listening intently. Why would you say that? 00:15:34.287 --> 00:15:39.215 And so now, of course, he lets me know I'm the psycho. Well, why are you yelling at me? 00:15:39.687 --> 00:15:42.827 You're the one who doesn't know how to listen and you told your dad something that I never said. 00:15:42.827 --> 00:15:46.273 It's fine, it's fine, cleaning the gutters is fine, but just for the record, 00:15:46.487 --> 00:15:48.361 I never told you to tell him to do that. 00:15:49.007 --> 00:15:52.567 But it's whatever, just tell your dad not to talk to the guy when he gets there 00:15:52.567 --> 00:15:57.571 so we don't have any more problems." And then she says, huh, any more problems? 00:15:58.127 --> 00:16:01.687 We wouldn't have any problems if you would have told me at any time during the week 00:16:01.687 --> 00:16:05.673 that you knew this guy was coming, but you waited until an hour before he was supposed to be there 00:16:05.847 --> 00:16:10.579 to call me and tell me to have my dad get up in a hurry, get on the ladder, and get out there. 00:16:11.247 --> 00:16:14.127 We wouldn't have any problems if you hadn't ruined the relationship 00:16:14.127 --> 00:16:16.601 between you and my dad years and years ago 00:16:16.927 --> 00:16:19.212 because you would have been able to actually go there and help. 00:16:19.847 --> 00:16:22.927 We wouldn't have any problems if you didn't make me feel like I'm the crazy one 00:16:22.927 --> 00:16:27.017 over something so silly." She said, I just realized I'm getting so mad at him. 00:16:27.247 --> 00:16:32.148 But then she said, wait, I'm mad at myself for wasting the emotional energy and the emotional calories 00:16:32.447 --> 00:16:38.360 and having to make mental notes of our conversations and almost want to download everything to a recorder 00:16:38.447 --> 00:16:41.835 to catalog our conversations so that I'll have backup, 00:16:42.407 --> 00:16:43.941 when we're trying to have a conversation. 00:16:44.267 --> 00:16:46.597 But then she said, I don't think normal people do this. 00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:52.124 How did I let this happen? Maybe I am the psycho. Maybe I didn't hear him and said, shoot, he almost got me again. 00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:57.210 I can't tell anybody about this. They think I'm crazy. So then she said, thank goodness for this Facebook group. 00:16:57.337 --> 00:17:01.170 And she posted to the group. So let me share a few more examples. 00:17:01.170 --> 00:17:08.887 And again, the concepts that I really want to bring home here are the things that are very obvious that are happening. 00:17:08.968 --> 00:17:16.349 And I feel this is where I like to step into this concept of healthy ego, which means it is based on the real life experiences that you have, 00:17:16.656 --> 00:17:21.427 that you are seeing things that you know you are seeing. You are hearing things that you know you are hearing. 00:17:21.970 --> 00:17:27.089 And in the past, you might have questioned things. If there wasn't such clear data, I guess, of sorts, 00:17:27.530 --> 00:17:32.014 then you might still say, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I didn't see it that way. 00:17:32.370 --> 00:17:35.947 But these are examples where you know that this is a thing. 00:17:36.370 --> 00:17:41.844 I thought about earlier talking with someone not long ago. His wife was more of the emotionally immature, 00:17:42.290 --> 00:17:47.570 and she was just talking about being unsure of what she wanted to do at a particular time 00:17:47.570 --> 00:17:50.990 on a place to go on a vacation. And she named a few different places. 00:17:51.090 --> 00:17:58.290 Now, she had also left part of her, in her travel plans, had left the family email address 00:17:58.290 --> 00:17:59.533 in for the itineraries. 00:17:59.810 --> 00:18:02.828 So he had already received an email that said where she was going, 00:18:03.070 --> 00:18:06.366 but then she was telling him, yeah, I don't really know. I haven't made up my mind. 00:18:06.610 --> 00:18:07.730 And so then he was saying, really? 00:18:08.464 --> 00:18:13.037 I just assumed you'd already made up your mind because I received the tickets. 00:18:13.577 --> 00:18:18.528 And I received your itinerary. And then she just said, that wasn't me. 00:18:19.365 --> 00:18:23.002 And so that was one of those moments where he said, okay, I, I, in the past might've thought. 00:18:24.095 --> 00:18:30.015 How is this not you? But he just said, okay, I know that I'm not crazy. I know that that is not 00:18:30.015 --> 00:18:34.895 the case. And so these examples where I just want, I want people to hear these examples because, 00:18:35.597 --> 00:18:40.095 it's, it's hard enough when somebody has these things, these times where they're being gaslight 00:18:40.095 --> 00:18:44.655 about things that, okay, maybe they are questioning their, their sanity, even though I, I feel like 00:18:44.655 --> 00:18:49.095 so often this is the emotionally immature person just gaslighting or trying to get out 00:18:49.095 --> 00:18:51.396 of a situation to get rid of their discomfort. 00:18:51.855 --> 00:18:56.415 They will say anything in the moment to get rid of their discomfort and it will be a lie. 00:18:56.415 --> 00:18:59.255 It will not be a truth or it might be a half-truth. 00:18:59.615 --> 00:19:04.557 So here are a couple of examples. One person said, my ex likes to say, I just don't really remember that. 00:19:05.615 --> 00:19:10.375 And she said a specific example was being at a farm where they would get pumpkins and 00:19:10.375 --> 00:19:12.758 this was when their kids were young. 00:19:13.335 --> 00:19:16.955 She said, he went to get some food for the family and I said that I would take the kids 00:19:16.955 --> 00:19:18.393 and I would find a table to sit down. 00:19:19.055 --> 00:19:22.930 So she went, she found the table to sit down. She said, I watched him get the food. 00:19:23.495 --> 00:19:28.629 Then I watched him just walk directly over to a random table and sit down and he started eating. 00:19:28.995 --> 00:19:33.319 She said, I watched, he was in plain sight and he didn't bother to look around for us. 00:19:33.415 --> 00:19:35.135 He didn't even pause for a quick glance. 00:19:35.135 --> 00:19:40.008 So as I'm watching this, then I have to pack up all of the things with our little kids, 00:19:40.449 --> 00:19:44.495 and then wrangle them over to him. And I said, hey, why didn't you come find the table 00:19:44.495 --> 00:19:46.030 that we were sitting at like we had talked about? 00:19:46.775 --> 00:19:50.396 She said, I was obviously irritated. And at this point he looked at me and he said, 00:19:50.575 --> 00:19:54.762 and this breaks my heart, but he said, F you. 00:19:55.135 --> 00:20:01.820 You are being, and he went on, an effing B. And I'm only saying this so I don't have to click the explicit rating. 00:20:02.175 --> 00:20:05.595 And she said, and then he threw food at me while I was holding our little kid 00:20:05.595 --> 00:20:08.131 and there was another little kid standing next to me. She said, I was horrified. 00:20:08.695 --> 00:20:11.135 I cried on and off the rest of the day. he never apologized. 00:20:11.135 --> 00:20:14.455 When I confronted him about his behavior later, he said, I don't even remember, 00:20:14.455 --> 00:20:15.459 I don't remember what you're talking about. 00:20:16.287 --> 00:20:20.377 She said, I agonized over this moment for days, months, and even eventually years, because he 00:20:20.377 --> 00:20:25.257 eventually had me believing that I was crazy. That it might have been so insignificant that 00:20:25.257 --> 00:20:30.137 why would anybody remember it? And she said, here I am almost 15 years later still traumatized over 00:20:30.330 --> 00:20:34.857 it. I certainly will never forget it. It's one of many examples. I want these examples to be heard 00:20:35.048 --> 00:20:39.337 because I want people to know that this is a behavior of the narcissist or the emotionally 00:20:39.337 --> 00:20:44.857 immature person. And they say whatever they need to to get out of that moment, to get rid of their 00:20:44.857 --> 00:20:50.697 discomfort at the expense of whomever. She talked about another one that said that her husband has 00:20:50.697 --> 00:20:57.497 denied many traumatizing and hurtful things and the denial is even more traumatizing at times than 00:20:57.497 --> 00:21:02.613 the initial event because he would say often, hey, I know myself, I would never do that. So, 00:21:03.369 --> 00:21:07.577 then she said, okay, so are you then calling me the liar? And he said, why do you always have to 00:21:07.577 --> 00:21:13.550 do that? I didn't say you were a liar, but you are clearly misremembering things because I would would never do that. 00:21:14.257 --> 00:21:18.457 She said he loves the concept of word salad. And I said, well, you did though. 00:21:18.457 --> 00:21:20.698 So you are clearly misremembering. 00:21:21.517 --> 00:21:26.057 And it was very traumatizing me to drag myself across the floor one time to the bathroom 00:21:26.057 --> 00:21:29.777 when I was pregnant and I had pulled a muscle and you refused to help me. 00:21:29.777 --> 00:21:31.609 You went right back to sleep, you were snoring. 00:21:32.457 --> 00:21:35.737 And she said, he just pulls out all these toxic immature strategies 00:21:35.737 --> 00:21:38.177 to make sure that he is the objective holder 00:21:38.177 --> 00:21:40.863 of the truth on the matter. And to this day says things like, 00:21:41.197 --> 00:21:46.238 that I'm the one that has never listened and I haven't been compassionate about his experiences. 00:21:47.117 --> 00:21:52.117 She said that I don't know what else I could possibly do. I could list loads of examples of him being anything 00:21:52.117 --> 00:21:53.439 but empathetic and compassionate. 00:21:54.277 --> 00:21:59.471 And she said, you'd really have better luck getting empathy and real compassion from a barn wall. 00:22:00.317 --> 00:22:05.322 And this is where that emotional immaturity is that it's just on full display, 00:22:05.867 --> 00:22:12.767 that the person does what they do and they cannot self-confront or sit with any of that discomfort, 00:22:13.407 --> 00:22:15.607 because that would mean that they might have done something wrong 00:22:15.607 --> 00:22:17.807 and we trace this all the way back to their childhood 00:22:18.204 --> 00:22:20.392 and gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. 00:22:20.887 --> 00:22:23.847 That they grew up in a home and I'm not trying to say that you then just say, 00:22:23.847 --> 00:22:27.351 okay, well then I need to not feel the way I feel because you do feel the way you feel 00:22:27.647 --> 00:22:31.780 because your body is keeping the score I'm trying to tell you that this is not okay. 00:22:32.407 --> 00:22:36.821 That it isn't something that you just have to suck up and get over because tell your body that. 00:22:37.167 --> 00:22:40.167 Because eventually this is where people start to develop chronic pain. 00:22:40.167 --> 00:22:43.447 They start to have autoimmune disorders. They start to have irritable bowel syndrome. 00:22:43.447 --> 00:22:47.247 They start to have high blood pressure. So many things where your own body is saying, 00:22:47.247 --> 00:22:48.713 I can't keep doing this. 00:22:49.650 --> 00:22:54.682 But from that person, they weren't modeled a parent that was taking ownership or accountability. 00:22:55.007 --> 00:22:58.346 They weren't allowed to have their own feelings or emotions, they had to be stuffed. 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.167 Or if they got in trouble, they got in trouble. And when you're a little kid 00:23:03.167 --> 00:23:06.487 and you get in that kind of trouble, whether it's the physical abuse, the emotional abuse, 00:23:06.487 --> 00:23:09.437 the just denying of just kindness and affection, 00:23:10.167 --> 00:23:15.487 then it becomes a matter of life or death if you did something wrong. 00:23:15.487 --> 00:23:22.527 So you learn at a very young age to basically disassociate and you could not have done something wrong 00:23:22.527 --> 00:23:27.351 and now you need to get rid of that discomfort so fast you're willing to just push nuclear buttons, 00:23:28.087 --> 00:23:30.439 to then get that person away from you. 00:23:31.087 --> 00:23:34.076 And then that's the problem. That's the do you wanna ride bikes problem. 00:23:34.667 --> 00:23:38.154 Because then what that means is that then once they get rid of that discomfort, 00:23:38.287 --> 00:23:39.855 oh, they feel better. 00:23:40.807 --> 00:23:44.689 So then you now are left to carry that trauma and carry it on your own. 00:23:45.247 --> 00:23:49.367 And that just gets heavier and heavier. It's this bag of bricks that every single time 00:23:49.367 --> 00:23:51.774 is one more and one more and one more. 00:23:51.887 --> 00:23:54.925 And they're the ones saying, man, I just grabbed a brick. It's kinda heavy. 00:23:55.087 --> 00:23:58.859 Let me put that in your backpack. I feel better. And now come on, let's go on a walk. 00:23:59.727 --> 00:24:02.118 So it's just so, so difficult. 00:24:03.247 --> 00:24:07.287 There's another person that says in a conversation with their husband about changing behavior 00:24:07.573 --> 00:24:09.185 that she was finding very hurtful. 00:24:09.767 --> 00:24:14.687 And before she started really waking up to this emotional immaturity or the narcissism in the relationship, 00:24:14.687 --> 00:24:16.287 he responded to this request. 00:24:16.727 --> 00:24:23.210 She said that he had four separate sentences back to back that included phrases like, I'm gonna need help with, 00:24:23.487 --> 00:24:25.776 and I'd love to have your help in order not to. 00:24:26.271 --> 00:24:29.367 And she said, me wanting to ask for clarification, knowing that he's told me in the past 00:24:29.367 --> 00:24:31.168 that he does not want me to coach him. 00:24:31.465 --> 00:24:34.274 Okay, sure, but in order for me to help you, then he interrupts. 00:24:34.751 --> 00:24:36.155 I'm pretty sure I never said the word help. 00:24:37.100 --> 00:24:40.470 She's dumbfounded. She said four times within a minute or two of his denial. 00:24:41.296 --> 00:24:45.110 People that just deny the sentences that they literally just said, that literally just came 00:24:45.110 --> 00:24:49.190 out of their mouth. Another person said, yeah, one time my mother-in-law had denied a sentence 00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:55.033 she had just said, it had just left her lips. When I said, you literally just said that. And 00:24:55.150 --> 00:24:58.870 she said, no, I didn't. I would never say that. And she said, it was the first moment that I 00:24:58.870 --> 00:25:02.784 realized I had married into something, this family system that seemed messed up. She said. 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:10.070 Those apples don't fall far from the trees. So this next example is going to feel very specific, 00:25:10.571 --> 00:25:16.070 but the person gave me permission to share. They just said, over the years, a lot of situations I 00:25:16.070 --> 00:25:22.150 faced were about missing objects. Favorite kitchen knife, garden hoses I bought, outdoor tools, 00:25:22.301 --> 00:25:29.430 debit cards, etc. Have you seen the whatever it is or my whatever it is? And then no. And when and 00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:33.870 And if I found an item, she said notoriously not where it was supposed to be, or where 00:25:33.870 --> 00:25:38.470 I had left it, his reply was, I didn't do it, as if our three year old had moved the 00:25:38.470 --> 00:25:40.242 new hoses to the stock tanks. 00:25:40.801 --> 00:25:46.470 Fast forward to the last time I caught him. She said I loved to make stained glass mosaics. 00:25:46.470 --> 00:25:51.756 Glass is very expensive, and I bought a lifetime's worth of gorgeous glass at an estate sale, 00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:53.521 over a thousand dollars worth I'm sure. 00:25:54.110 --> 00:25:57.950 We stored it all in a container shed until I had studio space, and then I moved out, 00:25:58.550 --> 00:26:01.630 And it took more than one trip to get all of my things moved across the state, and my 00:26:01.630 --> 00:26:03.504 glass was a constant worry for me. 00:26:04.150 --> 00:26:08.149 On the very last trip, after everything was unloaded, I looked over the glass, and at 00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:09.734 least half of it was missing. 00:26:10.530 --> 00:26:14.469 So I called him to the basement to ask where the rest of it was, hoping he'd just forgotten it. 00:26:15.390 --> 00:26:17.809 And he said in a very blustery voice, this is it. 00:26:18.637 --> 00:26:24.777 And she said, it's not, I had twice as much. And he said, this is all, this is everything that there was. 00:26:25.527 --> 00:26:29.807 So she said, I pulled out my phone and I pulled up a picture of the hall of glass, 00:26:29.807 --> 00:26:34.535 literally piles in stacks and 20 shoe boxes sorted by color. 00:26:34.807 --> 00:26:38.287 And he looks at the picture and said, well, I brought it all, I brought everything that was down here, 00:26:38.287 --> 00:26:39.144 there was nothing more. 00:26:39.387 --> 00:26:45.419 She said, my beautiful glass is long gone now and I think that of anything, this still hurts the most. 00:26:46.087 --> 00:26:49.487 It's like the crowning example of the 30 years of lies and denials 00:26:49.487 --> 00:26:51.486 that were often about the most mundane things. 00:26:52.167 --> 00:26:57.518 And she said, because I had this visual proof of what I was missing, and yet he still denied it. 00:26:58.087 --> 00:27:01.893 She said, I'm certain that he decided, and I appreciate her saying he decided, 00:27:02.207 --> 00:27:04.090 that I had enough glass and I didn't need it. 00:27:04.287 --> 00:27:06.079 So he probably threw it away in the dumpster. 00:27:06.687 --> 00:27:11.003 She said, no wonder I thought I had gone crazy. Thank goodness I woke up. 00:27:11.327 --> 00:27:12.858 Feel free to use this example, Tony. 00:27:13.967 --> 00:27:17.867 And I appreciate so much of that, where she talked about having the visual proof 00:27:17.867 --> 00:27:22.847 that it was this thing that seemed a bit mundane and that she knew that he was the only one 00:27:22.847 --> 00:27:27.153 that had had access down to the basement or wherever the glass was kept. 00:27:27.247 --> 00:27:29.746 And then he just went with, that's all it was. 00:27:31.105 --> 00:27:36.447 But he knows, or does he, that he is the one that got rid of the glass, that he threw the glass away. 00:27:36.447 --> 00:27:40.007 The only reason I say does he, is I feel like when I really start working 00:27:40.007 --> 00:27:42.967 with an individual and you're looking at that concept again 00:27:42.967 --> 00:27:47.778 of confabulation and confabulation is just changing that narrative of memory, 00:27:48.287 --> 00:27:52.567 to fit whatever the narrative is for the narcissist or for the emotionally immature. 00:27:53.407 --> 00:27:58.127 And we all confabulate to a bit and it's been a while, but I know I overused this example 00:27:58.346 --> 00:28:01.847 of a client of mine coming in and I thought that they said they were gonna be five minutes late. 00:28:01.847 --> 00:28:04.247 They thought that they said they were gonna be 10 minutes late. 00:28:04.247 --> 00:28:05.620 This was all in a text exchange. 00:28:06.061 --> 00:28:09.770 And then when they arrived, we looked at the text and they just said, I'm gonna be a few minutes late. 00:28:10.247 --> 00:28:11.913 So we both had thought, 00:28:12.498 --> 00:28:18.268 thought very certain, we were sure that we were right. And I swear to you, I would have taken a 00:28:18.268 --> 00:28:24.028 polygraph or whatever that would take. And I would have told you that I saw visually five minutes 00:28:24.028 --> 00:28:30.508 late on my phone. And I understand, again, because of the mechanisms of memory, that he and I had had 00:28:30.508 --> 00:28:36.108 that exchange on several occasions. And so I had seen the texts before that said, I'm going to be 00:28:36.108 --> 00:28:40.828 five minutes late. But then I feel like the difference is then when we were both confronted 00:28:40.828 --> 00:28:46.268 with the real data, first of all, we just looked at things humorously and we didn't look at that 00:28:46.268 --> 00:28:51.788 as this zero-sum game, that it was a death match, that one of us had to be right and whoever was 00:28:51.788 --> 00:28:57.468 wrong then was booted off the island. But we both just said, oh man, I thought it was this and he 00:28:57.468 --> 00:29:03.072 said I thought it was that. And then we looked and then I immediately just said, oh, I was wrong, 00:29:03.217 --> 00:29:08.942 as did he. That was the mature way to do it. But in this example, this woman's talking about the. 00:29:09.148 --> 00:29:13.768 Husband just saying it that isn't what happened. I didn't do it. It wasn't me. 00:29:13.768 --> 00:29:18.628 This was all the glass that we had. So then from a confabulation standpoint did 00:29:18.628 --> 00:29:22.708 that narrative change in his mind so instantly and does he believe it so 00:29:22.708 --> 00:29:32.388 forcefully that then it he does literally think she is crazy because he didn't do it. Because in his incredibly emotionally immature brain and response 00:29:32.388 --> 00:29:40.368 that it couldn't have been him. He couldn't have done something wrong. He just did what he did. And so now when confronted on it, then that gaslighting 00:29:40.368 --> 00:29:44.268 is that childhood defense mechanism. No, I didn't. And now his brain has to just 00:29:44.268 --> 00:29:47.348 lock in. We didn't do it. No, we didn't. We didn't do it. You're crazy. You're 00:29:47.348 --> 00:29:50.588 wrong. We didn't do it. We couldn't have done it. So the only way that this could 00:29:50.588 --> 00:29:54.548 have happened is, I don't know, you did it or one of the kids did it, but I didn't 00:29:54.548 --> 00:29:58.828 do it. So it really is just that crazy making. Somebody responded to that post, 00:29:58.828 --> 00:30:02.548 that comment, and I just, I have to just throw this one in there. This person 00:30:02.548 --> 00:30:06.388 that my sister-in-law realized that her husband was messed up when she told him, 00:30:06.388 --> 00:30:07.997 Hey, can you get the cookies out of the oven? 00:30:08.573 --> 00:30:12.423 And went to take a shower and he said, yeah, no problem. So, she gets out of the shower, 00:30:12.423 --> 00:30:16.583 the cookies were burnt. They were still in the oven. I can only imagine one of those things 00:30:16.583 --> 00:30:20.903 where you get out of the shower, you smell, oh man, he forgot to take cookies out. And she asked 00:30:20.903 --> 00:30:26.103 him, hey, why didn't you take the cookies out? And he said, oh, I did. Literally cookies burning 00:30:26.103 --> 00:30:30.903 in the oven. And it sounds like she had then ran down there taking them out. So, they were on the, 00:30:31.863 --> 00:30:35.143 table or wherever they were. So, then she approaches him, why didn't you take those 00:30:35.143 --> 00:30:40.983 out. And he's like, I did. Just so he was so just assuming that, well, they're out. I mean, 00:30:41.053 --> 00:30:45.863 I'm sure she didn't do it. So no, I did. I'll take that credit. Which again, it's just part 00:30:45.863 --> 00:30:51.063 of that crazy making. There was a comment in the, in the group that you feel like this is the, 00:30:51.739 --> 00:30:56.743 like a literal joke. I think I have something out there, a reel or something about gaslighting 00:30:56.743 --> 00:31:00.966 being the word of the year. And then I make the joke of, I mean, that's not even a thing, right? 00:31:01.542 --> 00:31:05.692 But one of the people in the group said that my ex had looked into my face one point and said, 00:31:06.287 --> 00:31:09.194 you know, there's no such thing as gaslighting. That's something that you totally made up. 00:31:09.671 --> 00:31:14.263 She said, I just don't miss him. He was a monster. And then I want to share another one. And this 00:31:14.263 --> 00:31:18.503 one, I want to go a little bit deeper into and talk about what this, the right way, 00:31:18.503 --> 00:31:20.503 in my opinion, to handle something would be. 00:31:21.464 --> 00:31:26.754 Okay, so taking us home, we have a couple of different scenarios and not to date the podcast, 00:31:27.554 --> 00:31:33.234 also, no spoilers, but if you have not seen the latest guardians of the galaxy movie, and again, 00:31:33.234 --> 00:31:37.554 as podcaster evergreen, we're talking about number three, I don't know this could be listened to well 00:31:37.554 --> 00:31:43.314 into the future, not like into, you know, the years 2312, or that sort of thing. But we're 00:31:43.314 --> 00:31:48.674 going to go with this concept of an amalgamation of several stories. I think we could also throw 00:31:48.674 --> 00:31:54.368 an old toy story reference in there where I think it might have been Sid was the the toy taker and 00:31:54.674 --> 00:31:59.805 he would put together different toys and then create these monstrosities of them. But so I'm, 00:32:00.354 --> 00:32:04.441 not going to create a monstrosity of stories but I'm going to end with two or three that are a 00:32:04.754 --> 00:32:10.354 combination of stories because I started to see a lot of patterns from some of the stories and 00:32:10.354 --> 00:32:16.114 one talked about the concepts around paying for things and paying for things like car registrations 00:32:16.114 --> 00:32:21.474 That was one of the biggest ones and there were also just ones of late credit card bills or. 00:32:22.293 --> 00:32:27.034 People finding out that their credit was lower than they had ever thought that their credit was or even 00:32:27.074 --> 00:32:30.714 Situations where there might be a wife who didn't even know that she had a credit score 00:32:30.714 --> 00:32:32.034 She's been a stay-at-home mom 00:32:32.456 --> 00:32:37.354 but didn't realize that that in these scenarios her husband had opened up credit cards in her name and, 00:32:38.002 --> 00:32:42.874 What I can understand the marriage therapist part of me that has had a lot of these conversations 00:32:42.874 --> 00:32:47.754 And when I throw my four pillars out there where there is that pillar one of assuming good intentions 00:32:47.754 --> 00:32:52.314 Or I throw that part B in there when you talk about narcissism or extreme emotional immaturity 00:32:52.714 --> 00:32:59.274 That I cannot ask somebody to assume good intentions when somebody is yelling at somebody else or when there's any kind of abuse 00:32:59.354 --> 00:33:05.074 but I put that part B in there of or there's a reason why somebody does the things that they do because they maybe never 00:33:05.074 --> 00:33:07.194 had the right modeling in childhood and, 00:33:07.754 --> 00:33:11.314 Maybe there's I mean honest to goodness if you start looking into the world of psychopathy 00:33:11.314 --> 00:33:15.854 psychopathy, psychopath, sociopaths, then you start looking at there's some areas of the brain 00:33:15.854 --> 00:33:16.775 that may not actually. 00:33:17.225 --> 00:33:22.355 Do what what other other people's brains do when it comes to things like empathy or impulse control. 00:33:23.364 --> 00:33:28.755 But that is a two minute way to say here are some combinations of things. And in this scenario, 00:33:28.755 --> 00:33:32.995 the one around paying for things, the reason I framed it that way with the assuming good 00:33:32.995 --> 00:33:38.344 intentions, or there's a reason why, is I have had situations where guys have opened up credit 00:33:38.595 --> 00:33:44.515 cards in a wife's name, and then it hasn't gone too far down the path of negativity. And then 00:33:44.515 --> 00:33:49.595 and when it is discovered that the husband has said, absolutely, no, I did it and I'm ashamed. 00:33:49.595 --> 00:33:55.898 I'm not proud of that, but it's something that I did as we are financially, we're heading in a bad direction 00:33:55.997 --> 00:33:59.931 and I was too embarrassed to admit that this is what happened financially, 00:34:00.102 --> 00:34:03.515 but now I wanna be transparent and everything comes out on the table. 00:34:03.712 --> 00:34:08.060 And the reason why I wanted to start with that one is there's that, the key thing is that 00:34:08.155 --> 00:34:12.922 when someone gets caught and we hope that it doesn't have to be a situation where somebody gets caught, 00:34:13.309 --> 00:34:16.575 Maybe somebody feels the courage to then come to their spouse and say, 00:34:16.973 --> 00:34:20.115 Hey, I haven't been as honest with the finances or some of the other things 00:34:20.115 --> 00:34:24.455 that I need to be, but I'm willing to, to sit with the extreme discomfort, 00:34:24.455 --> 00:34:25.815 take ownership and accountability. 00:34:26.128 --> 00:34:30.863 And then now this is an opportunity for me to grow me playing the role of the guy in this scenario. 00:34:31.135 --> 00:34:34.735 And he's going to be transparent and he is going to be very open, even though 00:34:34.735 --> 00:34:39.795 it's going to be uncomfortable because that's an adult mature thing to do is 00:34:39.795 --> 00:34:41.846 to be open with your spouse about finances. 00:34:42.296 --> 00:34:47.115 And to sit with a lot of that discomfort and then take ownership and accountability. 00:34:47.115 --> 00:34:48.264 What am I pretending not to know? 00:34:48.327 --> 00:34:53.972 That maybe I don't spend things consistently, maybe that I say that, okay, 00:34:54.395 --> 00:34:58.221 the finances look one way when I want something and then they look a different way 00:34:58.315 --> 00:34:59.515 when it comes to anyone else. 00:34:59.515 --> 00:35:03.740 And that's an opportunity for that emotionally mature person to self-confront and to grow. 00:35:03.835 --> 00:35:07.547 So there's that concept around car registration. And there were a couple of people 00:35:07.917 --> 00:35:14.295 that talked about examples of getting pulled over and not realizing that their car was behind on registration 00:35:14.295 --> 00:35:18.335 because that's something that the husband always taken care of. 00:35:16.721 --> 00:35:21.851 There was another one where someone talked about being late on rent or being late on. 00:35:22.651 --> 00:35:27.611 Credit card payments. And then the emotionally immature in this scenario will go again with 00:35:27.611 --> 00:35:31.502 the husband saying that, Oh, I paid it. I mean, I really, I literally, I sent him a check. You can 00:35:31.611 --> 00:35:37.131 go ask him. And then the landlord or the people that were taking the payment would say, we don't 00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:40.478 have any record of that. And then the husband saying, well, that's, that's not my problem then. 00:35:40.631 --> 00:35:45.131 I mean, that's a, that's a them problem. And the wife in this scenario being the messenger 00:35:45.131 --> 00:35:50.171 and being caught in the middle and then just arguing until finally the landlord takes another 00:35:50.171 --> 00:35:53.251 check or that sort of thing. And then finding out a couple of the situations, finding out 00:35:53.251 --> 00:35:56.951 down the road that the husband had not been honest to the wife, but it put the wife in 00:35:56.951 --> 00:36:03.251 a position where she was arguing that, no, we did, we turned the payment in. And so that 00:36:03.251 --> 00:36:07.011 can be a really difficult thing because that's the emotionally immature, narcissistic person 00:36:07.011 --> 00:36:11.571 wanting to just not have any discomfort, but then putting their spouse in a position where 00:36:11.571 --> 00:36:16.971 they are going to absolutely feel a tremendous amount of discomfort and then when they find 00:36:16.971 --> 00:36:23.751 out down the road, if they do, that that wasn't really what happened, that can be a big sense It's a betrayal. 00:36:24.742 --> 00:36:30.312 And then I'm going to end with one one person had shared that early in their marriage a charge for pornography had showed up on a 00:36:30.312 --> 00:36:34.905 Credit card bill that they could not afford to pay and so the wife asked the husband about it 00:36:34.977 --> 00:36:36.912 And he swore up and down it was not him 00:36:37.345 --> 00:36:41.774 she believed him she went to war with the person on the satellite company the person at the credit card company and, 00:36:42.272 --> 00:36:44.832 Finally was able to get the charges taken off. 00:36:45.492 --> 00:36:50.172 But the person that the on the other end the credit card company said, okay, I'll do it this time 00:36:50.172 --> 00:36:56.092 but we can't do this again." And then this person shared that later down the road he had admitted 00:36:56.092 --> 00:37:01.057 that it was him and she was just so embarrassed. And why I put this into this episode where it's 00:37:01.138 --> 00:37:05.342 more along the lines of somebody that is insisting that something happened a way that it did 00:37:05.675 --> 00:37:11.905 is someone, the satellite company for example, in that scenario that they can look at how often 00:37:12.012 --> 00:37:16.332 certain channels or those sort of things are being accessed and that's one where, man, they have the 00:37:16.332 --> 00:37:20.358 of the data and they know that, I mean, I guess there's a chance somebody could have hacked 00:37:20.512 --> 00:37:23.512 into some system, but most likely that did happen. 00:37:23.512 --> 00:37:28.152 And then in this scenario, the emotionally immature husband is putting the wife again in this place 00:37:28.152 --> 00:37:30.521 that is just gonna be really, really incredibly awkward. 00:37:30.672 --> 00:37:35.072 I'm gonna go a little bit off into the weeds intentionally on the last example. 00:37:35.072 --> 00:37:39.632 And this is one that somebody had just shared an example where, and it goes back around this pornography 00:37:39.632 --> 00:37:43.773 or compulsive sexual behavior, impulse control disorder, whatever we wanna look at it. 00:37:43.952 --> 00:37:49.480 But the person who had the pathologically kind person, the spouse in this scenario, 00:37:49.712 --> 00:37:54.112 has never been able to talk about her husband's pornography compulsion, 00:37:54.112 --> 00:37:57.456 pornography addiction, pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. 00:37:57.792 --> 00:38:03.010 She says that her husband has a pornography or a sexual addiction that we are not allowed to discuss. 00:38:03.472 --> 00:38:04.874 And that that's the backstory. 00:38:05.012 --> 00:38:09.582 So then she talked about a particular time recently where she said out of nowhere, 00:38:10.032 --> 00:38:22.428 that he went into a rage and just screamed, You've been so standoffish toward me this last week when you happen to remember that I was communicating with people inappropriately and that that had been well over a year or two ago. 00:38:23.076 --> 00:38:30.575 And he said, get over it. I refuse to be treated this way and stop asking me what I'm doing on my phone because I'm not going to take it anymore. 00:38:30.710 --> 00:38:32.736 I'm not going to stand it. This is your problem. 00:38:33.168 --> 00:38:39.146 And you have a problem with me looking at porn or even reaching out to anybody that I want to reach out to. 00:38:39.506 --> 00:38:41.360 So go talk to somebody else about it. 00:38:41.630 --> 00:38:48.392 And then I appreciate this had to have been uncomfortable for her, but she said the memory that came up in my mind that I had forgotten about really did trigger me. 00:38:48.392 --> 00:38:54.392 And it changed the narrative of what the things that we're talking about now, and it really shed light on more truth. 00:38:54.392 --> 00:38:56.392 And she said, we never even talked about it. 00:38:56.601 --> 00:39:05.392 And then she said that she had simply asked for some space, some time so that she could calm down her trauma response and not even the fact that they weren't still going to address it. 00:39:05.864 --> 00:39:08.952 But she said to her husband, yeah, I might've been a little bit distant 00:39:08.952 --> 00:39:10.654 since the time that I was triggered, 00:39:11.072 --> 00:39:14.792 but she said, I have made a lot of efforts in trying to just come back to the present, 00:39:14.792 --> 00:39:16.064 make things normal with you. 00:39:16.192 --> 00:39:21.375 I'm really hurting, I feel betrayed, and now I can't believe that you're telling me to get over it. 00:39:22.141 --> 00:39:26.190 And he claimed that she was being disrespectful because he had been working from home, 00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:29.261 that she's now bothering him at work, she's gonna affect his livelihood. 00:39:29.390 --> 00:39:34.290 And then I was, again, proud of her. She said, hey, you're the one that brought this up to me 00:39:34.290 --> 00:39:36.796 on your own while you were working from home. 00:39:37.318 --> 00:39:44.376 And then he just unleashed a barrage of explicatives and it really put this person into a bad state. 00:39:44.930 --> 00:39:49.290 And the reason I wanted to end with this is I feel like this is such a good example 00:39:49.290 --> 00:39:53.279 of something that I don't know if any, Most of anyone knows what they don't know, 00:39:53.390 --> 00:39:58.825 but as somebody that works in the world of betrayal trauma, I also work in the world of pornography. 00:39:58.990 --> 00:40:02.470 Pornography, that sounds funny if you just put a pause there but even though I have a book called 00:40:02.470 --> 00:40:03.670 He's a Porn Addict Now What? 00:40:03.670 --> 00:40:07.278 An Expert and a Former Addict Answer Your Questions where I play the role of the expert. 00:40:08.030 --> 00:40:13.790 And it has the word pornography addiction in the title, there isn't actually a diagnosis of pornography addiction. 00:40:13.790 --> 00:40:17.045 Now you can look at compulsive sexual behavior or impulse control disorder, 00:40:17.550 --> 00:40:23.410 but I often talk about pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism and that people often turn to pornography 00:40:23.410 --> 00:40:28.298 when they feel a lack of a connection in their marriage or in their parenting, in their faith, 00:40:28.721 --> 00:40:29.648 their career, their health. 00:40:30.090 --> 00:40:34.810 So when I'm working with the person that is the person struggling with turning to pornography 00:40:34.810 --> 00:40:39.236 as an unhealthy coping mechanism, then we're working on filling what I call those voids in their life. 00:40:39.605 --> 00:40:44.910 But that same concept rings true if people are turning to everything from food to gambling 00:40:44.910 --> 00:40:48.190 to even sometimes social media or work or exercise. 00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:53.230 But when something becomes an unhealthy way that someone copes, then it typically means 00:40:53.230 --> 00:40:58.438 that they turn to that when they feel uncomfortable about a particular area or areas of their life. 00:40:58.990 --> 00:41:03.110 So when I have someone come into my office and there is betrayal trauma. 00:41:05.270 --> 00:41:09.390 And I actually put this in my book that I feel like 25% of the people, 00:41:09.390 --> 00:41:12.130 This is just a number, it's just off the top of my head. 00:41:13.291 --> 00:41:19.341 25% of the people or so say, okay, fine. I got caught and I'm here and I'm not gonna do it again 00:41:19.341 --> 00:41:24.701 but they just need to trust me and the last thing I want to do is have somebody all up in my business or 00:41:24.781 --> 00:41:33.621 Looking at my phone or wondering where I'm at now I said I'm done and then maybe it's 66 or 75 percent of people that I work with will come in and then they say, 00:41:34.195 --> 00:41:41.341 I am so sorry and I'll do whatever it takes I'll do whatever it takes whether I need to open up my phone or my emails or my calendar or 00:41:41.341 --> 00:41:43.381 or put a tracking device on myself, 00:41:43.381 --> 00:41:49.661 whatever that looks like because the relationship matters and it means enough for me that I want to make things right. 00:41:49.821 --> 00:41:54.837 And then with that person, we can start to work on what the betrayal trauma looks like in the relationship 00:41:55.041 --> 00:41:57.321 and we can start working on helping that individual 00:41:57.541 --> 00:42:04.701 turn to filling these voids of becoming a better spouse, a better parent, getting more in touch with their faith, 00:42:04.701 --> 00:42:10.741 their work, their health, and then they turn less or they feel that draw to the unhealthy coping mechanism 00:42:10.741 --> 00:42:14.606 less and less, and then they're able to show up more present in their relationship. 00:42:14.741 --> 00:42:17.270 Now there's still a lot of work to be done in the world of betrayal trauma. 00:42:18.063 --> 00:42:21.664 But that's from that two thirds or three quarters of the people that I get to work with 00:42:21.941 --> 00:42:25.821 that come in and say, okay, I'm willing to work on this, I need help. 00:42:25.821 --> 00:42:29.892 I got caught or whatever, however that happened, but I'm here and I'm willing to show up. 00:42:30.221 --> 00:42:34.861 But then another 25, or maybe then 33% of people that come in and their immediate response is, 00:42:35.221 --> 00:42:38.678 I said I'm sorry, I'm not gonna do it again, and the last thing I wanna do is get to 00:42:38.861 --> 00:42:43.621 have this used against me. So in this scenario that I talked about, then here 00:42:43.621 --> 00:42:47.581 is this, without me knowing a ton of the backstory, but knowing or having this 00:42:47.842 --> 00:42:53.821 person share that there had been some awareness or someone was maybe he was 00:42:53.821 --> 00:42:57.941 caught in looking at pornography or turned into pornography as an unhealthy 00:42:57.941 --> 00:43:02.661 coping mechanism, but it sounds like they have clearly not dealt with it. And then 00:43:02.661 --> 00:43:06.981 here's where I want to jump into the the weeds and share a tangent. So she talks 00:43:06.981 --> 00:43:11.833 about being triggered. And we talk often on this podcast about the body keeping the score. 00:43:12.211 --> 00:43:16.421 And a trigger is something that just happens. Triggers are things that are not, they aren't 00:43:16.421 --> 00:43:20.341 always in our, well, not always, they're not in our control. They're things that can be worked 00:43:20.341 --> 00:43:26.021 on. But a trigger can be hearing a song that reminds you of a situation that you were in 00:43:26.021 --> 00:43:28.061 when you found out about, in this scenario, 00:43:28.061 --> 00:43:31.665 her husband who continually looked at pornography. 00:43:32.593 --> 00:43:44.767 I've shared a few different episodes about betrayal trauma over on the virtual couch podcast and I have plenty of examples of people there was some situation once where someone had had a had an affair with with an Asian woman. 00:43:45.250 --> 00:43:51.207 And then when he and his wife, I was working with him as a couple, and then they were in a Chinese restaurant. 00:43:51.207 --> 00:43:56.787 And then the wife was triggered just by seeing an attractive Asian woman who was their server 00:43:57.025 --> 00:44:05.487 And so then in that scenario, then he said hey, I am so sorry I put you in a spot where even if we go to a Chinese restaurant that you feel triggered and 00:44:05.910 --> 00:44:09.647 We will do whatever you need to do if we need to get up whatever you need to do. I'm here for you 00:44:09.647 --> 00:44:14.767 And again, I'm sorry. I put you in this position, but I'm here and we're working on this 00:44:14.767 --> 00:44:16.767 We're gonna get through this and we'll do whatever it takes 00:44:17.019 --> 00:44:23.447 So you can see that right there, what a different experience than having somebody that is sharing an experience 00:44:23.447 --> 00:44:30.687 where they never even feel like they've been able to talk about the topic and then being told to get over it 00:44:30.687 --> 00:44:32.485 and then her expressing a trigger, 00:44:33.007 --> 00:44:38.047 and then instead of it being this opportunity for him to heal that wound, help her heal that wound, 00:44:38.047 --> 00:44:40.920 this person that he cares about, then he's made her feel worse about it. 00:44:41.327 --> 00:44:44.767 And there's a document that I have that's about healing attachment injuries 00:44:45.052 --> 00:44:47.824 and this is based off of the book, Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight. 00:44:47.950 --> 00:44:52.627 And Sue Johnson is an amazing psychologist and this is what I base my four pillars off of. 00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.747 Is her models in this book, Hold Me Tight, and just an emotionally focused therapy, 00:44:57.747 --> 00:45:01.823 which is the modality that she is founded. 00:45:01.958 --> 00:45:05.514 But in this healing attachment injuries, then an attachment injury by definition 00:45:05.910 --> 00:45:12.626 is it's a hurt in a close relationship and it's severe enough to really significantly affect the relationship. 00:45:13.742 --> 00:45:16.872 So, this could be between a husband and a wife, parent and child, no matter what the 00:45:16.872 --> 00:45:21.752 age is for others, but here we're talking definitely about a husband and a wife relationship. 00:45:21.752 --> 00:45:26.052 And Sue Johnson goes on to say that we grow close to or attach to people when they help 00:45:26.354 --> 00:45:30.512 meet our needs of friendship, companionship, romantic relationships, and we want to love 00:45:30.512 --> 00:45:34.832 and trust those that we have attachments to, and we want to be treated well by them. 00:45:34.832 --> 00:45:37.752 And when the relationship is good, we can easily forgive little things, and a quick 00:45:37.752 --> 00:45:38.993 apology can work wonders. 00:45:39.492 --> 00:45:43.432 But when there's an incident that happens that is so big that we could rule this as 00:45:43.432 --> 00:45:50.692 an attachment injury, then Sue Johnson says that this is one that is different, that it 00:45:50.692 --> 00:45:51.903 needs to be handled differently. 00:45:52.592 --> 00:45:56.332 She shared an example, I believe, in the book where when a woman had a miscarriage and she 00:45:56.332 --> 00:46:01.052 appropriately responded to the loss as a death of a child, but her husband, however, had 00:46:01.052 --> 00:46:06.332 not yet established a relationship with the unborn fetus, nor felt it growing and moving, 00:46:06.540 --> 00:46:10.294 And so he had not developed those deep, loving, tender feelings that his wife had. 00:46:11.012 --> 00:46:14.732 His anticipation and longing for a child was not in the same place as his wife's. 00:46:15.192 --> 00:46:19.990 So then he looked at the miscarriage more clinical, as somewhat of a medical procedure, 00:46:20.152 --> 00:46:25.526 and she was absolutely crushed by his lack of what she felt like was empathy and this 00:46:25.625 --> 00:46:27.894 denial of her pain and her loss. 00:46:28.052 --> 00:46:32.552 So for years afterward, whenever she felt a triggering event, then maybe she would even 00:46:32.552 --> 00:46:35.789 and see a pregnant woman or would hear about somebody else's miscarriage, 00:46:35.912 --> 00:46:39.786 then her emotions would well up and she would start to feel anger and hurt and she would feel abandoned, 00:46:40.272 --> 00:46:44.012 almost as if it was happening in that moment or that took her back to the day 00:46:44.012 --> 00:46:46.204 where she remembers having that miscarriage. 00:46:46.832 --> 00:46:50.312 And Sue Johnson says, then when our spouse goes off on an emotional outburst 00:46:50.312 --> 00:46:54.032 after experiencing a triggering event, we know that there's an attachment injury 00:46:54.032 --> 00:46:54.946 that's not yet healed. 00:46:55.412 --> 00:47:01.152 So in this example of this person in the group saying that when she felt triggered 00:47:01.152 --> 00:47:05.874 and then it brought up a lot of feelings and emotions around this unresolved trauma to her 00:47:06.092 --> 00:47:12.761 of this, whatever the pornography addiction, pornography compulsion, or her husband's pornography use, 00:47:13.332 --> 00:47:18.692 that it was unresolved, that there is something there that happened that was not dealt with properly, 00:47:18.692 --> 00:47:23.195 so then it is gonna come back to her by way of triggers. 00:47:23.812 --> 00:47:25.892 That's where we're gonna know that there's an attachment injury, 00:47:25.892 --> 00:47:31.392 and it does need healing, and it needs the right tools. And she also says another way we can know 00:47:31.392 --> 00:47:34.186 is when we hear about the same problem or issue over and over again. 00:47:35.222 --> 00:47:38.772 But here's where things are fascinating, though we don't know what we don't know, but I want 00:47:38.772 --> 00:47:43.832 those of you who are maybe in these emotionally immature relationships to really try to step 00:47:43.832 --> 00:47:48.005 outside of yourself, not view you as the problem, bless your heart. 00:47:48.419 --> 00:47:51.432 But let me take you and let me stay on my train of thought here. 00:47:51.588 --> 00:47:56.341 So here's how to start to heal an attachment injury at approximately this kind of level. 00:47:56.592 --> 00:48:00.652 And she even says more severe injuries like affairs or repeated significant injuries require 00:48:00.652 --> 00:48:02.624 more and sometimes different treatment. 00:48:03.152 --> 00:48:06.622 But just this concept of an attachment injury apology alone, I think is brilliant. 00:48:06.732 --> 00:48:11.006 She says, first, you must sincerely want to heal all such injuries. 00:48:11.472 --> 00:48:16.472 So if I am coming from the place of the husband in this scenario, and this is why I say when 00:48:16.472 --> 00:48:21.272 I get that 66% or 75% of the people that come in, if they're coming in, they're coming in 00:48:21.272 --> 00:48:24.968 not just to check a box off, but because they really do need help and they're not exactly 00:48:25.072 --> 00:48:27.174 sure how to handle this situation. 00:48:27.332 --> 00:48:30.082 So first, you must sincerely want to heal all such injuries. 00:48:30.847 --> 00:48:35.546 Now second, you must have already changed your behavior or your attempts will not yield the desired result. 00:48:35.912 --> 00:48:42.952 So if this person's spouse is still looking at pornography on a regular basis and or still having inappropriate chats 00:48:42.952 --> 00:48:46.312 or relationships with other women, then even if they are saying, 00:48:46.312 --> 00:48:47.591 I really do want to heal this, 00:48:48.347 --> 00:48:51.660 but if they have not changed their behavior, then the attempts are not gonna be, 00:48:51.832 --> 00:48:54.232 they're not gonna be sincere, they're not gonna be authentic. 00:48:54.232 --> 00:48:57.700 And it goes back to that, they're not gonna show up in a way 00:48:57.832 --> 00:48:59.712 that their spouse is really gonna even be able 00:48:59.712 --> 00:49:01.040 to trust this process. 00:49:01.612 --> 00:49:05.592 So she said the following steps will be written from the point of view that the husband 00:49:05.592 --> 00:49:06.721 is the one that caused the injury. 00:49:07.172 --> 00:49:13.392 So the next time that a triggering event occurs and ignites your wife's emotions about the injury, stay with it. 00:49:13.912 --> 00:49:17.767 Now we already, maybe you can see where we're going here, but if the person, if the husband already has 00:49:17.912 --> 00:49:22.592 a really difficult time sitting with discomfort or feeling uncomfortable in general 00:49:22.592 --> 00:49:24.455 because this is where the gaslighting comes from. 00:49:25.432 --> 00:49:30.092 Then we can already see that we've already said first, The husband has to sincerely want to heal the injuries 00:49:30.092 --> 00:49:31.932 and has to have already changed behavior. 00:49:31.932 --> 00:49:36.492 So is he working on himself with a therapist? Is he taking ownership and accountability 00:49:36.492 --> 00:49:39.822 or is he just going to a therapist and just getting validation? 00:49:39.992 --> 00:49:45.574 Sue Johnson said, the next time the triggering event occurs and ignites your wife's emotions about the injury, stay with it. 00:49:45.952 --> 00:49:49.355 Bring the entire issue tenderly and carefully to the forefront of her thoughts. 00:49:49.852 --> 00:49:53.802 Go over all the events that led up to it, all of the errors made, acknowledge the missed cues. 00:49:54.460 --> 00:50:01.472 And to be healing, then your attitude should be calm, humble, soft-spoken, contrite during the conversation. 00:50:01.550 --> 00:50:07.081 And it's important to acknowledge that your spouse, your partner is in pain, that they're suffering over this. 00:50:07.230 --> 00:50:10.510 And what can be difficult, if I go back from the husband's standpoint, 00:50:10.510 --> 00:50:13.490 if he's now thinking though, if he's listening to this and thinking, 00:50:13.630 --> 00:50:15.327 okay, but I don't feel very comfortable either. 00:50:15.530 --> 00:50:19.657 Like I need her to know that I'm hurting as well, and we'll get there. 00:50:19.910 --> 00:50:24.374 Because putting your needs ahead is then part of that emotional immaturity 00:50:24.491 --> 00:50:26.886 or being selfish in this scenario of saying, 00:50:26.990 --> 00:50:30.064 okay, fine, I'll do this, but you just need to know. 00:50:30.230 --> 00:50:34.070 But acknowledging your partner's pain and suffering, and remember, and the focus is on your spouse's healing, 00:50:34.070 --> 00:50:37.364 not on your own or your feelings or your image or those sort of things. 00:50:37.752 --> 00:50:41.569 And the more that you're thinking about your issues, the less helpful it's gonna be to your spouse. 00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:45.990 Next, then Sue Johnson talks about apologizing. Apologize for every little detail 00:50:45.990 --> 00:50:47.087 that you're responsible for. 00:50:47.550 --> 00:50:53.524 She says everyone. Then apologize for the things that happened that you did not cause, especially if you didn't cause them. 00:50:53.850 --> 00:50:57.110 Apologize that they even happened. Be truly sorrowful that these events 00:50:57.110 --> 00:50:58.730 contributed to your wife's pain and sorrow. 00:50:58.730 --> 00:50:59.850 Now, what does that look like? 00:51:00.032 --> 00:51:03.330 In this scenario, it's being able to really sit with your wife and say, I am so sorry 00:51:03.330 --> 00:51:07.081 that I put you in a spot where you have these triggers, and I'm not even aware of them, 00:51:07.650 --> 00:51:11.170 that I'm sorry that I put you in a position where you don't even feel safe enough 00:51:11.170 --> 00:51:14.301 to share these triggers with me because that sounds really, really hard. 00:51:15.010 --> 00:51:19.410 And that's what she means by apologizing for the things that happened that you didn't even cause 00:51:19.410 --> 00:51:22.650 because you're not even aware of them and you are grateful that she is finally starting 00:51:22.650 --> 00:51:27.057 to bring this up to you and you're willing to sit in the discomfort and sit in the pain and sorrow 00:51:27.130 --> 00:51:30.010 because you're changing, you're making change 00:51:30.090 --> 00:51:31.387 and you want to be there for her. 00:51:32.233 --> 00:51:37.883 Now, Sue says, proceed slowly, only go forward when there has been enough time for her to absorb what's occurring. 00:51:38.085 --> 00:51:41.683 And then next, let her know what your intent was and what your intent is now. 00:51:41.683 --> 00:51:46.025 At that point, maybe your intent was you were hurting and you didn't even have the tools to cope. 00:51:46.439 --> 00:51:49.683 And you were reaching out because you just didn't even feel like you could go to your spouse. 00:51:49.683 --> 00:51:51.696 And that's a you problem and you've been working on that. 00:51:52.542 --> 00:51:56.283 And if your intent was not good, Sue says, don't lie about it, admit it. 00:51:56.396 --> 00:51:58.727 And if it was selfish, prideful, controlling, apologize for it. 00:51:59.609 --> 00:52:05.002 Tell her how your intent is going to change if it needs to. Now, on the other hand, if you truly felt that your intent was completely pure, 00:52:05.623 --> 00:52:10.556 recognizing that with this additional knowledge that you now have, that you still, it's okay to apologize. 00:52:11.294 --> 00:52:17.803 It's okay to say, look, I didn't have the tools. I wasn't sure. I didn't know what I know now, but that doesn't mean so. 00:52:17.803 --> 00:52:20.683 You need to let this go. It says, so I am so sorry. 00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:24.523 And she said, pointing out that your intent was not meant to harm. 00:52:25.086 --> 00:52:28.883 It can be a step in the process, but it doesn't negate any of these other steps. 00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:32.043 Now, the fourth step, she says, next, tell her how you're gonna prevent things 00:52:32.043 --> 00:52:32.990 like this from happening again. 00:52:33.404 --> 00:52:36.339 And here's where I feel like people say, look, I'm gonna open up my phone, 00:52:36.573 --> 00:52:41.483 I can open up my email, I want you to have access to, you can check in with me. 00:52:41.758 --> 00:52:44.368 And this is the part where to the emotionally immature person, 00:52:44.843 --> 00:52:48.323 I can only imagine if they're thinking, oh, I'm gonna be this kept person 00:52:48.323 --> 00:52:51.048 that I'm gonna be under a lock and key or on a leash. 00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:55.083 But that's when there's an unhealthy view of this or unhealthy relationship happening. 00:52:55.083 --> 00:52:59.963 I have people to this day that when they would go travel, They would take pictures of themselves, 00:52:59.963 --> 00:53:01.626 pictures of the people that were around them. 00:53:01.689 --> 00:53:04.588 Thank goodness to how easy things are with a phone these days. 00:53:04.643 --> 00:53:09.089 And it wasn't, okay guys, I have to take a picture because my wife doesn't trust me, 00:53:09.203 --> 00:53:13.323 but it's more of just snapping a little picture of hey, let me get all of us in here to capture the moment, 00:53:13.323 --> 00:53:19.072 or sneaking a quick picture, just, I don't know, at the side of the table or whatever that looks like, 00:53:19.203 --> 00:53:22.643 but doing it from a way of saying, hey, I just want you to know here's where I'm at 00:53:22.643 --> 00:53:25.419 and here's the group of people I'm with and just thinking about you. 00:53:25.723 --> 00:53:29.056 So it doesn't have to be this heavy, Okay, here you go, you happy now? 00:53:30.118 --> 00:53:36.924 And in that scenario, again, telling her what you're doing and going to do to absolutely make certain that this won't happen again. 00:53:37.248 --> 00:53:39.968 How are you going to be aware that something like this is brewing again? 00:53:40.318 --> 00:53:46.968 And share this with her, figure it out with her. And that's the part that's going to probably need to be done in couples therapy and with a lot of discomfort. 00:53:47.681 --> 00:53:54.968 And then the fifth thing she says is finally apologize all over again for the issue that you've caused and the things that happened that could have been prevented, 00:53:55.145 --> 00:53:55.968 whether you caused it or not. 00:53:56.630 --> 00:53:59.648 And then if she's ready, hold her gently and lovingly, let it all sink in. 00:54:00.402 --> 00:54:03.904 But he says, but Sue Johnson says, the apology must match the size of the injury because 00:54:04.188 --> 00:54:07.955 we don't cure infections with aspirin, we don't cure attachment injuries with a quick 00:54:08.018 --> 00:54:11.168 and pitiful, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it, but now you need to get over it. 00:54:11.934 --> 00:54:15.606 And remember that also healing takes time and it takes consistency. 00:54:16.308 --> 00:54:19.088 So these things need to be repeated and be patient. 00:54:19.088 --> 00:54:23.008 And I love this concept where she says, you will know when the injury is healed because 00:54:23.008 --> 00:54:27.848 you will see or hear the trigger and the gun won't fire. That at that point, the healing 00:54:27.848 --> 00:54:32.828 will be complete. So the concept here is that when somebody has the right tools, and if 00:54:32.828 --> 00:54:37.208 the wife feels like she can go to him and express any trigger, and this is where I tell 00:54:37.208 --> 00:54:41.688 my clients, and this is how long I've been talking about this concept, if it'll be dated 00:54:41.688 --> 00:54:46.328 here, trust me, but I would say, okay, I want the wife in this scenario to be the trigger 00:54:46.328 --> 00:54:50.628 release valve. That when she feels a trigger, that that is too much for her to carry around 00:54:50.628 --> 00:54:54.468 continually and just sit on it because if she feels like she can't bring it up 00:54:54.468 --> 00:54:57.188 to her spouse then that would be really difficult and it's gonna it's gonna 00:54:57.188 --> 00:55:00.828 drive her crazy. But being able to express a trigger and have the husband 00:55:00.828 --> 00:55:05.388 have this tool but the key parts again to the tool are he has to be willing 00:55:05.388 --> 00:55:10.668 want to hear her and want to heal this attachment injury and he needs to be 00:55:10.668 --> 00:55:15.708 doing the work so that then he can be sincere and genuine about saying that he 00:55:15.708 --> 00:55:19.668 understands and this isn't gonna happen again. But then over time if the wife 00:55:19.668 --> 00:55:23.808 knows in this scenario again. And I have people where the wife is the emotionally 00:55:23.808 --> 00:55:26.805 immature and the husband is the one that has been betrayed. 00:55:28.300 --> 00:55:36.620 Over time the person that oh the dated concept So I say that the the wife in this scenario would be the trigger release valve and the husband would be the attachment injury 00:55:36.700 --> 00:55:43.500 Apology ninja because I think there was a time there probably in the mid 2000s early 2000s where everything was a something ninja 00:55:43.676 --> 00:55:48.220 I'm a ninja about it. Whatever it is, and I literally just did my hands in an embarrassing way. 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:54.540 But in that scenario then if the wife knows that I can express a trigger to my husband and then my husband is gonna, 00:55:55.018 --> 00:55:58.980 to meet me with this attachment injury apology and mean it, and we're going to feel like 00:55:58.980 --> 00:56:04.651 this is a connecting moment, then over time, she knows that if she expresses a trigger, 00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:08.540 then he's going to go right through the list and apologize, sincerely go through the attachment 00:56:08.540 --> 00:56:10.259 injury apology concept. 00:56:10.540 --> 00:56:15.679 And so then at that point, she'll think to herself, okay, I know he's going to be there for me. 00:56:15.820 --> 00:56:19.145 So I'm going to sit through this one. I'm going to breathe through this one and I'm going to be okay. 00:56:20.162 --> 00:56:24.960 So I wanted to go into that detail because you can see that we are so far from somebody 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:26.059 using the right tools. 00:56:26.580 --> 00:56:30.900 And then if a husband in this scenario just says, well, I didn't know, but I feel like 00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:35.140 what can be really difficult is the version of I didn't know is man, I'm so sorry. 00:56:35.286 --> 00:56:40.860 Yeah, we can talk about it. Maybe we got to go to therapy versus the look, I don't want to talk about this and I need 00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:41.821 you to not bring it up. 00:56:42.180 --> 00:56:46.540 That that's not a way for healing and that is not going to allow the relationship to 00:56:46.540 --> 00:56:54.334 to move forward anytime soon in a way that will be helpful or help the person that feels betrayed to feel safe. 00:56:55.420 --> 00:56:59.180 Okay, added a little bit extra on there. We'll call that bonus, I guess. 00:56:59.180 --> 00:57:04.540 But if you have questions, I do appreciate the examples. When people hear episodes and they share their own examples, 00:57:04.540 --> 00:57:06.956 that would be wonderful. and then we will see you next week. 00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:42.608 Music.