WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.080 Music. 00:00:08.075 --> 00:00:22.514 Welcome to Waking Up to Narcissism, episode 72. I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, and also co-host of Murder on the Couch, which is out now. 00:00:23.108 --> 00:00:27.474 And another thing that needs to be out is the gum that I am chewing. So let me do that. 00:00:29.113 --> 00:00:36.925 But if you stay tuned, after today's Waking Up to Narcissism episode, I'm going to play the first 20 minutes of the first episode of Murder on the Couch. 00:00:37.377 --> 00:00:42.925 And I'll include the links in the show notes, but I would love it if you want to hear more. 00:00:42.925 --> 00:00:50.925 If you can go hit the subscribe or follow or wherever you get your podcasts and go sign up, listen to the rest of the episode. 00:00:51.456 --> 00:00:56.174 And if you want to see Sydney and I in action, I'll also put the link to the YouTube video 00:00:56.246 --> 00:01:01.989 of the episode. And if you happen to be poking around YouTube, then just hit that subscribe button on the. 00:01:02.605 --> 00:01:04.006 Virtual Couch YouTube channel. 00:01:04.205 --> 00:01:05.671 That would, that would be wonderful. 00:01:06.112 --> 00:01:10.685 And also while you're there, I've been continuing to actually at Sydney, putting up a lot of 00:01:10.685 --> 00:01:17.365 free therapeutic advice, not to be mistaken for therapy. And that is in the form of YouTube shorts. 00:01:17.525 --> 00:01:20.957 So if you subscribe to my YouTube channel, the Virtual Couch YouTube channel, 00:01:21.165 --> 00:01:25.512 you'll get a lot of content there as well. A lot of things about narcissism and emotional maturity, 00:01:25.625 --> 00:01:29.815 but just a lot of mental health tips and thoughts and stories also. 00:01:30.145 --> 00:01:34.046 So today we are getting back to, we are now doing part two 00:01:34.465 --> 00:01:38.448 of exploring the five types of narcissists to look for. 00:01:39.045 --> 00:01:44.597 And last time I took a break between part one and today's part two to talk about 00:01:44.705 --> 00:01:47.973 the antagonistic attachment style of the narcissistic person. 00:01:48.385 --> 00:01:52.231 And that has still just been a concept that I cannot stop thinking about. 00:01:52.618 --> 00:01:55.517 And I mentioned it on the women's Facebook group last night, 00:01:55.625 --> 00:01:57.308 the group calls that are done weekly. 00:01:57.902 --> 00:02:03.457 And I mentioned that because now more than ever, if you are a man looking for a group, 00:02:03.880 --> 00:02:07.432 if you are waking up to your own emotional immaturity, maybe some narcissistic traits 00:02:07.432 --> 00:02:11.752 or tendencies, or you feel that you're in a relationship with a narcissistic fill-in-the-blank, 00:02:11.752 --> 00:02:17.293 again, not a dirty, rotten, scoundrel version of fill-in-the-blank, but a spouse, a parent, 00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:22.991 adult child, institution, a boss, you name it, then boy, do I have the group for you. 00:02:23.262 --> 00:02:27.992 So reach out through contact at tonyoverbay.com and we'll get you on there and then just if you 00:02:27.992 --> 00:02:32.072 sign up for the newsletter, that would be amazing because that's where we'll keep you up to date on 00:02:32.072 --> 00:02:35.352 so many things. So I think if there were three things, if there were three things that I would 00:02:35.352 --> 00:02:39.547 just love, if you like the podcast and you want to just support and wake up to narcissism, then. 00:02:41.221 --> 00:02:45.112 Definitely go sign up for the subscription, the, for the subscription-based podcast. 00:02:45.112 --> 00:02:49.912 I was about to say the free subscription, kind of a oxymoron there, but the subscription-based 00:02:49.912 --> 00:02:55.432 podcast $4.99 a month and I answer, I go into question and answer mode and I'll have the 00:02:55.432 --> 00:03:00.828 links are all in the show notes. The other thing would be to go sign up and follow virtual 00:03:01.192 --> 00:03:05.752 and follow Murder on the Couch. And I guess the third thing would be to be nice, be nice 00:03:06.192 --> 00:03:11.712 to each other, especially yourself. Give yourself a lot of grace and kindness and do the deep 00:03:11.712 --> 00:03:15.664 breathing thing, do some mindfulness, put a pause in before you have responses, whether 00:03:15.952 --> 00:03:22.192 it's to the tiny narcissists in your life, aka kids, or maybe the larger narcissists or emotionally 00:03:22.192 --> 00:03:27.152 immature people in your life, which could again be spouses, bosses, adult children, friends, 00:03:27.152 --> 00:03:32.592 neighbors, countrymen, you name it. But let's get to today's episode. So again, part two of looking 00:03:32.592 --> 00:03:37.232 at the five types of narcissists. And just for fun, I have been playing around with artificial 00:03:37.232 --> 00:03:43.072 intelligence, chat, GBT. And I just asked, what is the Greek story of narcissist? I just thought 00:03:43.072 --> 00:03:46.832 it would be fun to just jump back in and let's talk about the history of narcissism because we're 00:03:46.832 --> 00:03:51.673 talking about the five types of narcissists and I think what is pretty interesting is, 00:03:52.141 --> 00:03:56.894 where we get pretty far away from the diagnostic and statistical manuals. 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:02.210 Diagnosis criteria of narcissistic personality disorder when we start talking about narcissistic 00:04:02.210 --> 00:04:06.850 traits and tendencies, which is why I just go so big on the concepts around emotional immaturity. 00:04:06.850 --> 00:04:12.050 Because if you just go with the story, the Greek story of Narcissist is a mythological tale about 00:04:12.050 --> 00:04:17.250 a young man named Narcissus who was known for his exceptional beauty. The story goes that Narcissus 00:04:17.250 --> 00:04:21.250 was walking through the woods one day when he came across a pool of water. As he leaned over to take 00:04:21.250 --> 00:04:24.819 a drink, he saw his reflection in the water and he became enamored with his own beauty. Narcissus. 00:04:25.570 --> 00:04:30.850 Became so obsessed with his reflection that he refused to leave the pool, gazing at his image 00:04:30.850 --> 00:04:35.757 for hours on end, and he was so entranced by his own reflection that he forgot to eat or drink and 00:04:35.847 --> 00:04:40.610 eventually wasted away and died by the side of the pool. So according to the myth, the gods took pity 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:45.330 on Narcissus and transformed his body into a beautiful flower, which was later named the 00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:50.930 Narcissus. The story of Narcissus is often seen as a cautionary tale about the dangers of vanity 00:04:50.930 --> 00:04:55.570 and self-obsession, it has become a popular metaphor for the concept of narcissism, which 00:04:55.570 --> 00:05:01.278 is named after the character of narcissist and refers to excessive self-love and self-absorption. 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:05.770 So I think you can see where the tie-in though is when we are talking about extreme emotional 00:05:05.770 --> 00:05:12.477 immaturity, then it comes across as looking self-absorbed because it's definitely selfish, 00:05:13.290 --> 00:05:17.852 but instead of saying excessive self-love, I believe it's an absolute lack of self-love. 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:23.410 Than the narcissistic person or the emotionally immature person doesn't even know what it 00:05:23.410 --> 00:05:31.210 feels like to love oneself. So they get their sense of self by exploiting and manipulating and sucking the life force 00:05:31.210 --> 00:05:31.958 out of other people. 00:05:32.858 --> 00:06:00.621 So while I was there with the with artificial intelligence, then I said, give a modern day story based off the Greek story of narcissists. And this is where I sound like such an old man. And just think this is pretty amazing. So I asked chat GPT that to give a modern day story based off the Greek story of narcissist. And it did take about three or four seconds. So I can already see that at some point, that is going to be a long time that it's going to be watching a watch pot and see it thinking it's never going to boil. 00:06:01.387 --> 00:06:07.428 But it came back immediately with one modern-day interpretation of the story of Narcissist could be about a young social media influencer, 00:06:07.976 --> 00:06:11.608 Who becomes obsessed with her own image and the attention that she receives from her followers, 00:06:12.342 --> 00:06:18.708 The influencer named Sophia spends hours every day taking selfies applying filters and crafting the perfect captions for her posts, 00:06:19.274 --> 00:06:25.068 She obsesses over her appearance constantly checking a reflection in the mirror and comparing herself to other influencers in her field, 00:06:25.729 --> 00:06:30.257 As Sofia's following grows, she becomes increasingly fixated on her online persona, 00:06:30.986 --> 00:06:33.147 neglecting her relationships and other aspects of her life. 00:06:33.708 --> 00:06:37.508 She spends hours each day scrolling through her comments and responding to messages basking 00:06:37.508 --> 00:06:39.286 in the praise and adoration of her fans. 00:06:40.008 --> 00:06:43.748 But eventually, Sofia's obsession with her own image begins to take a toll on her mental 00:06:43.748 --> 00:06:47.973 and physical health, and she becomes anxious and depressed when her posts don't receive 00:06:48.342 --> 00:06:53.834 as many likes as she had hoped. And her relationships with friends and family begin to suffer. 00:06:54.588 --> 00:06:59.348 So despite the negative effects of her obsession, Sophia is unable to pull away from the validation 00:06:59.348 --> 00:07:01.855 and attention she receives from her social media following. 00:07:02.508 --> 00:07:07.445 She becomes trapped in a cycle of self-obsession and narcissism, much like the character of 00:07:07.668 --> 00:07:09.489 narcissists in the Greek myth. 00:07:10.548 --> 00:07:13.909 All of that was generated in just a couple of seconds from typing in a question about, 00:07:14.388 --> 00:07:18.308 a modern-day story based off of the Greek story of Narcissus. 00:07:18.308 --> 00:07:21.939 Artificial intelligence is coming, and it is pretty fascinating. It really is. 00:07:22.335 --> 00:07:26.308 Something that I feel the more we can embrace and learn to use it as a tool and not be afraid of it, 00:07:26.791 --> 00:07:28.748 then that can really be a good thing. 00:07:29.501 --> 00:07:34.988 So let's get back to these types of narcissism and where I left off last time was covering the, 00:07:35.468 --> 00:07:41.788 antagonistic style, attachment style of the narcissist. And so there are two more that are left in this, 00:07:42.671 --> 00:07:46.628 from, again, this is from the article of how many types of narcissism are there and how can you identify them. 00:07:47.154 --> 00:07:51.610 And this is from the Psych Central article, which was written by... 00:07:52.709 --> 00:07:59.119 Which is medically reviewed by Jeffrey Ditzel and written by Courtney Telloian. 00:08:00.369 --> 00:08:06.319 And I will edit out my butchering of the first few versions of her last name. But we jump back 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:10.155 in at number three. We've already covered then in the first episode, the overt narcissism. 00:08:10.596 --> 00:08:15.439 We also then talked about covert narcissism, and now we've hit on the antagonistic narcissistic 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.199 style. So we have two left, and these are pretty fascinating. One, I think, 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:24.676 I think maybe you might not have heard of a lot of them, but the fourth one is communal narcissism. 00:08:24.757 --> 00:08:31.634 So communal narcissism is another type of overt narcissism, and it's usually seen as the opposite of antagonistic narcissism. 00:08:31.715 --> 00:08:40.493 Where again, antagonistic narcissism is based off of the biological concept of an antagonist which needs another organism to survive. 00:08:40.699 --> 00:08:48.307 So it just drains or sucks the life force out or uses the other organism as a way to then take the one-up position. 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:56.199 But when we get to communal narcissism, someone with communal narcissism values fairness and is likely to see themselves, though, as altruistic. 00:08:56.553 --> 00:09:01.699 But research published in 2018 suggests that there's a gap between these beliefs and the person's behavior. 00:09:01.990 --> 00:09:06.086 So people with communal narcissism might become easily morally outraged. 00:09:06.581 --> 00:09:12.883 They might describe themselves as very empathetic and generous, and they may react strongly to things that they do see as unfair. 00:09:13.549 --> 00:09:18.759 But unfair meaning not going their way. hard to then maintain that whole object relations 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.146 or being able to maintain a connection or a relationship with somebody, 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.297 even despite having a difference of opinion. 00:09:25.939 --> 00:09:30.439 So what makes the communal narcissism, the narcissist different from genuine concern 00:09:30.439 --> 00:09:31.463 for the wellbeing of others? 00:09:32.099 --> 00:09:35.319 Courtney said that the key difference is that for people with communal narcissism, 00:09:35.319 --> 00:09:38.422 social power and self-importance are playing the major roles. 00:09:39.079 --> 00:09:42.399 So she said, for example, while communal narcissism might cause you to say 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.039 and believe you have a strong moral code or care for others, 00:09:45.439 --> 00:09:49.216 you might not realize the way that you treat others doesn't really match up with your beliefs. 00:09:49.981 --> 00:09:54.515 I did a little bit more digging and I came up with a few more concepts around communal narcissism. 00:09:55.265 --> 00:10:00.435 The person does seek admiration and attention, but they're seeking the admiration and attention 00:10:00.435 --> 00:10:05.555 through the acts of generosity and selflessness. So it can seem like, but the person is a good 00:10:05.555 --> 00:10:10.275 person. And if you have a casual relationship with the person, it may truly seem like this is one of 00:10:10.275 --> 00:10:16.595 the most altruistic and selfless people that you know. And this is that ironic thing that I get so 00:10:16.595 --> 00:10:22.803 so many letters about, letters, emails about, direct messages about, of people that say, 00:10:22.995 --> 00:10:29.035 my spouse has everyone in the world fooled except for me. 00:10:29.035 --> 00:10:31.031 But then they start to say, so maybe what's wrong with me? 00:10:31.275 --> 00:10:35.195 Because I'm the one that doesn't think that everything that he's doing is coming from 00:10:35.195 --> 00:10:39.955 the place that he likes to think that it is, from this pure generosity and altruism. 00:10:40.313 --> 00:10:43.875 So let me go through a couple of, I've got four or five real examples. 00:10:43.875 --> 00:10:45.275 I tried to come up with some examples of these. 00:10:45.275 --> 00:10:50.875 So one would be the volunteer who constantly brags about their charitable work and uses 00:10:51.133 --> 00:10:53.235 it to gain recognition and praise. 00:10:53.235 --> 00:10:58.075 Take for example, let's have someone, we'll call him John, and he is a regular volunteer 00:10:58.075 --> 00:10:59.115 at a local food bank. 00:10:59.115 --> 00:11:03.235 But then this is that guy that always makes sure that everybody knows about his volunteer. 00:11:04.088 --> 00:11:06.515 Work and talks about it because he talks about it at every opportunity. 00:11:06.515 --> 00:11:10.119 As a matter of fact, whenever you see John, it gets pretty easy for you because you say, 00:11:10.569 --> 00:11:11.749 hey, how's life at the food bank? 00:11:12.355 --> 00:11:17.395 If John is up, let's say, sharing an answer, even in a church class, a Sunday school class, 00:11:17.395 --> 00:11:22.355 they ask something about, hey, tell me one of your favorite ones of the Beatitudes. 00:11:22.569 --> 00:11:26.296 And if he says, blessed are the meek, or something like that, he's like, you know who's meek? 00:11:26.782 --> 00:11:31.194 And everybody's thinking the people at your food bank, John. He said, people at my food bank. 00:11:31.725 --> 00:11:36.035 And then he posts pictures of himself working at the food bank on social media. And he gets upset 00:11:36.035 --> 00:11:39.235 if he doesn't receive enough likes or comments on his posts, because all of a sudden he thinks 00:11:39.235 --> 00:11:43.284 makes people understand how amazing I am this work at the food bank. 00:11:43.986 --> 00:11:47.785 He talks about how much he gives to the food bank, how much he sacrifices to help others, 00:11:48.244 --> 00:11:51.692 because he wants to be seen as a generous and selfless person. 00:11:52.205 --> 00:11:55.596 But in reality, he's doing it from a place of seeking recognition and praise from others. 00:11:56.316 --> 00:12:00.076 And I think you can see the little flip right there where that's where that deep insecurity 00:12:00.076 --> 00:12:05.756 comes from. So if he truly is altruistic and he wants to help because that's one of his core 00:12:05.756 --> 00:12:12.236 values as service or compassion or fairness or equity or equality, then if it really is 00:12:12.236 --> 00:12:13.774 of what it feels like to be John, 00:12:14.156 --> 00:12:16.853 and it is part of who he is and the fiber of his being. 00:12:16.979 --> 00:12:21.636 He is gaining a tremendous amount of satisfaction through a sense of purpose, 00:12:21.636 --> 00:12:25.556 and then doesn't need to continually tell people to make sure that he knows he's okay, 00:12:25.556 --> 00:12:27.557 because people tell him he's okay. 00:12:28.097 --> 00:12:32.940 John needs to just know that he is okay, and he's doing amazing things at the food bank. 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.658 There's another version of the communal narcissist, the self-proclaimed martyr, 00:12:37.153 --> 00:12:43.482 who constantly sacrifices himself for the sake of others, but then still expects to be acknowledged and praised for their efforts. 00:12:43.836 --> 00:12:49.436 So an example here is somebody that will seem like the selfless giver and the 00:12:49.436 --> 00:12:53.396 selfless helper, but again, they're doing it to receive admiration from others. 00:12:53.436 --> 00:12:56.796 So let's just say that there is a mom. I don't know. We'll call her Tina. 00:12:56.916 --> 00:13:02.306 I've got Napoleon dynamite on my head of where I think it was the Lama, Tina, come get your ham. 00:13:03.449 --> 00:13:06.476 But Tina is a mother who always volunteers to help at school events. 00:13:06.476 --> 00:13:11.436 Well, everything, bake sales, the jog-a-thons, the fundraisers, which is amazing. 00:13:11.436 --> 00:13:16.316 My wife did amazing work helping out with our kids and doing the art docent stuff and 00:13:16.316 --> 00:13:22.092 the teacher's helper and going on the field trips. It just warms my heart to think about that. 00:13:23.560 --> 00:13:29.596 But let's get back to Tina. Then she constantly talks about how much she sacrifices for her kids, how exhausted she 00:13:29.916 --> 00:13:31.842 is, constantly exhausted from all the work she does. 00:13:32.756 --> 00:13:37.816 And so Tina takes on more than she can handle. And then when others offer to help, she declines. 00:13:37.816 --> 00:13:43.076 And I had someone in my office recently talking about them continually trying to help, provide 00:13:43.076 --> 00:13:47.074 help for a spouse. And the spouse continually saying, no, no, it's okay. 00:13:47.164 --> 00:13:47.569 I'll do it. 00:13:48.154 --> 00:13:51.728 And this person saying, no, I literally have created the time and I want to help. 00:13:51.936 --> 00:13:54.681 No, it's, it's all right. I get it. gotta do all this work. 00:13:55.671 --> 00:13:59.521 So, declining, saying that they are the only ones that can do things right. 00:13:59.521 --> 00:14:03.107 Because in this scenario, Tina wants to be seen as the perfect mother, 00:14:03.746 --> 00:14:07.410 who puts her children's needs first, but in reality is, again, 00:14:07.521 --> 00:14:15.872 and this is where that emotionally immature or narcissistic person gets their sense of self through the validation, purely through the validation of others. 00:14:16.521 --> 00:14:20.499 So, in this example, Tina is seeking admiration and attention from others. 00:14:21.521 --> 00:14:25.612 And this is what would be considered or called this communal narcissistic martyr. 00:14:26.121 --> 00:14:31.491 And she really does. She may genuinely compare, she may genuinely care about her children and the community, 00:14:32.061 --> 00:14:35.506 but she's using her selflessness to gain the admiration and attention from others. 00:14:35.561 --> 00:14:39.296 Her need to be seen as the perfect mother and as the only one who can do things right. 00:14:39.761 --> 00:14:42.481 That's one of those red flags for the more emotional immaturity 00:14:42.481 --> 00:14:44.706 or maybe those narcissistic traits or tendencies. 00:14:45.281 --> 00:14:48.161 And the more I thought about it, I thought about that just bringing up something 00:14:48.161 --> 00:14:51.281 that's kind of interesting, I think, because I think that some of the pathologically kind people 00:14:51.281 --> 00:14:55.681 that will be listening to this episode will find any chance they can to say, 00:14:55.681 --> 00:14:59.921 wait a minute, I help at my kid's school. Is Tony calling me a narcissist? I am not. 00:15:00.802 --> 00:15:03.782 Again, the fact that you're even listening here and wondering that question means you're not. 00:15:04.169 --> 00:15:08.641 You really aren't. But I was writing about when I'm trying to help people discover their values, 00:15:08.805 --> 00:15:14.243 because honest to goodness, discovering your core values, the process of uncovering your values 00:15:14.459 --> 00:15:18.721 is one of the biggest components of recovery. But it's one of those, we talked about this on 00:15:18.870 --> 00:15:23.041 the women's group last night. But it's one of those situations where it's hard to even understand 00:15:23.041 --> 00:15:27.917 what that means when you're so in the thick of trying to manage other people's emotions, 00:15:28.403 --> 00:15:33.418 and trying to buffer for your kids and trying to just walk on eggshells and not say the 00:15:33.625 --> 00:15:37.761 air quote wrong thing. Because in reality, there isn't a wrong thing. There's a thing. 00:15:37.928 --> 00:15:40.790 And then we can have some curiosity about why one said what they did. 00:15:42.132 --> 00:15:48.062 In that quest for values, that there are often people that will find themselves going toward on 00:15:48.062 --> 00:15:52.349 this list of values when I'm working with clients individually, there is a value of reciprocity, 00:15:52.493 --> 00:15:56.462 which means that people sometimes don't want, you know, they have a core value, 00:15:56.643 --> 00:16:01.342 which is values are not some ultimate destination, but it's a sense of being and doing, 00:16:02.117 --> 00:16:06.462 that they want to be in mutually reciprocal relationships. And I think often it's because 00:16:06.462 --> 00:16:10.588 it might be somebody that has lived a life where people have just taken advantage of them 00:16:10.975 --> 00:16:17.742 continually. Now, if their core value is service, period, then the yeah buts that will pop up in 00:16:17.742 --> 00:16:22.453 your brain are, well, yeah, but sometimes it might not be reciprocated. And in that scenario, then 00:16:22.702 --> 00:16:27.502 you start to work with the, oh, yeah, absolutely it might not. And that's not even a problem 00:16:27.502 --> 00:16:34.542 because my core value is service. But if I have a core value of mutual reciprocity, then the yeah 00:16:34.542 --> 00:16:39.902 buts might be, yeah, but the pool of friends might be a little bit more shallow. And not shallow as 00:16:39.902 --> 00:16:45.182 in shallow human beings, but there might not be as many. And then we're not even arguing if that's 00:16:45.182 --> 00:16:49.262 a true or false statement because it isn't a productive thought if you are truly seeking 00:16:49.262 --> 00:16:55.342 out a value of reciprocity and friendships. So I think it's important to point out that 00:16:55.473 --> 00:16:59.389 people do want to be is that the part where you do want to be in a mutually beneficial relationship 00:16:59.488 --> 00:17:04.142 or because I think this whole communal narcissism thing is more along the lines of I'm doing things 00:17:04.142 --> 00:17:07.725 for someone else so that they will maybe even owe me. 00:17:08.542 --> 00:17:12.382 And I hear so often the people that struggle to accept help from others because they worry 00:17:12.382 --> 00:17:17.502 that there will be strings attached because most of their life there truly has been strings is attached. 00:17:17.187 --> 00:17:21.277 So another type of communal narcissist is the community leader who uses their position to gain 00:17:21.277 --> 00:17:25.277 admiration or attention. And it could be community leader, it could be church leader, it could be 00:17:25.277 --> 00:17:30.077 somebody who's serving in a particular calling or position in church, but they're doing that to gain 00:17:30.077 --> 00:17:34.921 admiration and attention. And then they become angry or defensive when challenged or criticized. 00:17:35.434 --> 00:17:40.719 And I will tell you, honestly, I work a lot in the world of working with people that are 00:17:40.953 --> 00:17:45.677 in religious congregations. And I work with people that sometimes the concept is called 00:17:45.677 --> 00:17:50.522 a leadership roulette where they can have one person, an ecclesiastical leader, who, 00:17:50.997 --> 00:17:55.095 is a very kind, empathetic person who is selfless and who says, I am here to help, period. And, 00:17:55.717 --> 00:17:59.128 then there are others that will run into people and that leader will say, you know what, this, 00:17:59.597 --> 00:18:04.437 is what I think, and this is what you're supposed to do. God himself has told me that you need 00:18:04.437 --> 00:18:08.517 to knock it off. You need to not continue to go to counseling. You need to just pray 00:18:08.517 --> 00:18:11.074 and read your scriptures more. And if that doesn't work, something's wrong with you. 00:18:11.597 --> 00:18:15.317 So that can be really difficult. So that's the leader who uses their position 00:18:15.317 --> 00:18:19.932 to gain admiration or attention or control, and then they become angry or defensive when challenged. 00:18:20.877 --> 00:18:24.657 So there's another version of the communal narcissist that is the parent who uses their 00:18:24.657 --> 00:18:30.517 children's accomplishments to boost their own sense of self-worth and importance. 00:18:30.517 --> 00:18:34.917 And it's interesting because when I talk about my own emotional immaturity or waking up to 00:18:34.917 --> 00:18:38.197 those narcissistic traits or tendencies, some of these do, they start to hit a little bit 00:18:38.243 --> 00:18:44.437 close to home because I really am very proud of the accomplishments of my children. 00:18:45.094 --> 00:18:47.299 And I do find myself wanting to share them. 00:18:47.930 --> 00:18:53.583 And sometimes I have to do that self-confrontation of am I sharing because I want people to think 00:18:53.637 --> 00:18:59.740 I am a wonderful father because look at what my kids have done, or is it because I'm excited 00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:04.820 and I feel from a healthy ego, which is again, I talk about that concept so often, but a 00:19:04.820 --> 00:19:10.220 healthy ego is something that comes from within side and it's based off a real experience or real work. 00:19:10.220 --> 00:19:14.460 So honestly, it sounds like a plug now, but the Murder on the Couch podcast is something 00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:18.276 where I never anticipated putting a true crime meets therapy podcast together with one of 00:19:18.580 --> 00:19:24.340 my daughters and she's done the lion's share of the editing, the recording, putting content 00:19:24.340 --> 00:19:29.080 out and it's really good and I had such a fun time and we've already been getting some 00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:34.020 feedback about our own back and forth or rapport and how much fun it is. 00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:39.580 So I am talking about that because I'm just so excited to share and I think truthfully 00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:43.980 it's in the hopes that maybe others will say, oh my gosh, not that I want to record a therapy 00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:48.900 meets true crime podcast with my daughter, but that it's a really neat experience to 00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:53.420 do things with your kids. And that takes a lot of work to build that. Look, then it sounds 00:19:53.420 --> 00:19:57.980 like I'm bragging, right? And I put in all the hard work, folks, but it does. It takes 00:19:57.980 --> 00:20:03.660 a lot of work to self-confront, to not make things about you. So you can provide that 00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:07.520 secure attachment to then hopefully help your kids start to recognize some of the things 00:20:07.726 --> 00:20:12.900 that they want to do and not, this wasn't a me hammering her. You need to do this podcast 00:20:13.028 --> 00:20:16.782 with me, Sid. But if it's a, she likes true crime, what if we did a podcast together? 00:20:17.260 --> 00:20:21.500 And now it's been just an amazing opportunity for me to self-confront and say, at times 00:20:21.500 --> 00:20:25.140 I want to get in there and say, Hey, we need to do this often and we need to put this really 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.780 schedule out and we need to, like I've tried to do with my podcast, but this is a, this 00:20:29.780 --> 00:20:34.780 is more of her journey. And so it's an opportunity for me to support, to build rapport, to bond 00:20:34.780 --> 00:20:38.420 and also to self-confront and figure out what are the things that I need to learn from this 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:43.492 experience. And one of those is to step back and let go of some of that control, even if that 00:20:43.780 --> 00:20:47.540 means that things might take a little bit longer or there might not be the consistency. And I don't 00:20:47.540 --> 00:20:50.660 even know if that's the case yet. So I just, I love that concept. 00:20:51.378 --> 00:20:54.908 So, yeah, the parent uses their children's accomplishments to boost their own sense of 00:20:54.908 --> 00:20:58.372 self-worth and importance. Here's one that I think is really, really interesting. 00:20:58.723 --> 00:21:02.108 The therapist, I love that this is one of the examples that I was able to find, 00:21:02.108 --> 00:21:06.828 the therapist who constantly reminds clients of their own personal experiences and achievements 00:21:06.828 --> 00:21:10.588 to gain credibility and admiration. Okay, we're getting a little too close to home now. 00:21:11.273 --> 00:21:15.548 So, I was thinking about this. Does a therapist, and I think you can just see it doesn't mean you 00:21:15.548 --> 00:21:19.228 have to be a therapist, but if you were just interacting with another human, and do you share 00:21:19.228 --> 00:21:24.588 experiences to try and build rapport, maybe to normalize a situation so that person feels 00:21:24.588 --> 00:21:30.790 more heard and seen and understood, or somehow to gain power or importance to get validation. 00:21:31.668 --> 00:21:34.708 So I did, I jotted down a few notes about this because I think I can look at different 00:21:34.708 --> 00:21:39.968 examples or an example with a client in my own situation where I can see all of these play out. 00:21:39.968 --> 00:21:44.248 So I had a brother pass away over 30 years ago, and I was recently talking with someone 00:21:44.248 --> 00:21:47.498 in my office who had also had one of their siblings pass away. 00:21:48.368 --> 00:21:53.408 And this person was talking about some really big feelings, and I want to maintain the confidentiality, 00:21:53.408 --> 00:21:57.112 the anonymity, the respect, because I love this client and the family. 00:21:58.008 --> 00:22:01.768 But I had a moment where I really think I saw all three of these concepts playing out 00:22:01.768 --> 00:22:06.488 of was I trying to then build rapport or to normalize the situation for this individual, 00:22:07.249 --> 00:22:13.008 or was I trying to do this to say, hey, let me tell you my stories and I want you to validate me. 00:22:13.008 --> 00:22:15.808 And P.S., I'm getting paid to do it, which I hope that's not the case. 00:22:15.808 --> 00:22:16.944 And I don't think it was. 00:22:17.248 --> 00:22:20.662 So then let's just say that the person is saying that their sibling's passing had, 00:22:21.208 --> 00:22:24.839 not really set in yet, and leaving a lot of the details off, of course. 00:22:25.608 --> 00:22:32.768 But while others around them were, from a general sense, saying that this passing had 00:22:32.768 --> 00:22:39.808 in fact set in, and the person, my client then, so if I would have said, man, I have, 00:22:39.808 --> 00:22:44.768 I've heard similar stories during times of grief and loss where there isn't one 00:22:44.768 --> 00:22:49.128 way to grieve and that I really appreciated this person being in my office and being able 00:22:49.128 --> 00:22:54.368 to share these things because I really wanted to help this person feel a bit more, air quote, 00:22:55.069 --> 00:22:58.968 normal in the way that they're feeling because, yeah, I can understand that if they really 00:22:58.968 --> 00:23:03.408 felt like, why hasn't this thing just hit me like a ton of bricks yet when it has been 00:23:03.408 --> 00:23:05.340 all the people around me? Because then what's wrong with me? 00:23:06.367 --> 00:23:09.728 So at that point then, if I share with them that, man, you know what? 00:23:09.728 --> 00:23:14.528 I had a sibling pass away this 30 years ago and I have to be honest, I really struggle 00:23:14.528 --> 00:23:19.375 that as well. So not saying that I know exactly what you're going through, but I hear you. 00:23:19.753 --> 00:23:23.975 At that point now, I am reminding the client, again by definition of communal narcissism, 00:23:24.407 --> 00:23:27.513 I am reminding a client of my own personal experience and achievement. 00:23:28.719 --> 00:23:33.689 Is it to gain credibility and admiration? In that scenario, and I really am the only one that truly 00:23:33.689 --> 00:23:38.169 knows my intent, but just being aware, that self-awareness is saying, I'm really not, 00:23:38.169 --> 00:23:43.129 because I feel like I want to offer this as a way to say, I see you. Of course, I don't know 00:23:43.129 --> 00:23:46.809 exactly what you're going through, but I'm grateful that you're here and I want to normalize. 00:23:47.588 --> 00:23:52.409 But having us both go through losing a sibling then at an early age that might be more about a 00:23:52.409 --> 00:23:57.369 bond, but then in comes the communal narcissist, then that would be me spending the next 10 00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:01.609 minutes talking about when I got the news and what I did next, and then how I helped the others 00:24:01.609 --> 00:24:06.106 around me through the death of my brother. But then while I was doing that, I hadn't grieved it 00:24:06.340 --> 00:24:10.089 and on and on, because in that moment, then I would have moved from trying to truly bond and 00:24:10.089 --> 00:24:14.809 help to just, I just took somebody coming into my office to process the passing of a loved one. 00:24:14.809 --> 00:24:19.289 And by the end, I have them now telling me that they are so sorry with what I went through 30 00:24:19.289 --> 00:24:24.489 years ago and how strong I am. So in summary, this communal narcissist, they seek admiration 00:24:24.489 --> 00:24:29.489 and attention by portraying themselves as selfless and generous, and then using those 00:24:29.489 --> 00:24:33.068 qualities to gain status or recognition or their own validation. 00:24:34.148 --> 00:24:39.809 So we've got one more, the last type in these five types of narcissism, the malignant narcissist. 00:24:39.809 --> 00:24:41.769 This is the one we're more familiar with, I think. 00:24:41.769 --> 00:24:45.869 Narcissism can exist at different levels of severity, and malignant narcissism is a more 00:24:45.869 --> 00:24:49.785 severe form, and it can also cause more problems for the person living with it. 00:24:50.449 --> 00:24:55.393 So malignant narcissism is more closely connected than back to this overt or out there, over-the-top 00:24:55.546 --> 00:24:57.032 narcissism than covert. 00:24:57.589 --> 00:25:01.542 So somebody with malignant narcissism may have many common traits of just narcissistic 00:25:01.587 --> 00:25:05.929 personality disorder, like this strong need for praise, to be elevated above others. 00:25:05.929 --> 00:25:10.166 And in addition, malignant narcissists then often show up as vindictive. 00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:15.049 Some consider them, and this article talks about sadists, sadism, where they actually 00:25:15.049 --> 00:25:17.620 get enjoyment from the pain of others. 00:25:17.869 --> 00:25:21.749 And that can just be really difficult to understand from the pathologically kind people, which 00:25:21.749 --> 00:25:24.317 will probably be most of the people listening to this episode. 00:25:24.609 --> 00:25:28.306 But then you're looking at it through your lens or what it feels like to be you. 00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:35.649 But then there are others that then they do. You almost see this, I don't want to say a gleam in their eye, but when something really 00:25:35.649 --> 00:25:36.408 hurts for somebody. 00:25:36.749 --> 00:25:40.315 And sometimes you see this malignant version of narcissism say, well, good, I think it 00:25:40.469 --> 00:25:42.682 should hurt because I don't like what you did. 00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:47.709 Aggression often comes out in aggression and interacting with other people and then paranoia. 00:25:48.443 --> 00:25:52.684 It's really interesting, the malignant narcissist, you can also find some tie-ins there to things 00:25:52.909 --> 00:25:56.749 like, even things like conspiracy theorists and people that are, you know, this heightened 00:25:56.749 --> 00:26:01.549 paranoia about the worry or potential threats, because then they are going to aggressively try 00:26:01.549 --> 00:26:05.728 to make sense of things and then make sure that there's, you know, this is a zero-sum game. 00:26:06.097 --> 00:26:09.949 Either I am right, which means you are wrong because we both can't share the same opinion. 00:26:10.616 --> 00:26:14.549 Of that paranoia, this heightened worry, and then with that malignant narcissism, 00:26:15.018 --> 00:26:23.149 then to really make someone else feel bad and put them down with that aggression and interacting with other people. 00:26:21.959 --> 00:26:25.497 What's interesting too, and one of these days I need to do, I'll get more into things like 00:26:25.569 --> 00:26:31.169 psychopaths and sociopaths, but then also some of the other traits that are in line with things 00:26:31.169 --> 00:26:35.969 like antisocial personality disorder. So someone with malignant narcissism will share a lot of 00:26:36.255 --> 00:26:39.969 those traits of antisocial personality disorder, which means that somebody with malignant narcissism 00:26:39.969 --> 00:26:44.369 could be more likely to experience legal trouble or even start getting involved in substance abuse 00:26:44.369 --> 00:26:48.689 disorders. Courtney talked about a small study that involved people with borderline personality 00:26:48.689 --> 00:26:52.769 disorder and those with malignant narcissism actually had a harder time reducing anxiety and 00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:57.489 gaining a better ability to function in day-to-day life than those people with borderline. And the 00:26:57.489 --> 00:27:02.379 call of the borderline, there's a pretty popular book that I have often kept on my shelf that's 00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:06.849 called I Hate You Don't Leave Me, but that yet malignant narcissism can actually have a harder 00:27:06.849 --> 00:27:11.809 time reducing anxiety than borderline. I came up with a couple of examples of just good old 00:27:11.809 --> 00:27:16.849 malignant narcissism. And it's interesting because some of the ones I found, I did actually on one of 00:27:16.849 --> 00:27:27.252 One of the examples of malignant narcissism that ChattGBT proposed was a political leader 00:27:27.432 --> 00:27:31.469 who is obsessed with power, has a grandiose sense of self-importance, lacks empathy for 00:27:31.469 --> 00:27:35.805 others, and is willing to engage in unethical or even illegal behavior to achieve their goals. 00:27:36.390 --> 00:27:40.209 This leader may use their charisma and manipulative tactics to gain support from the public and 00:27:40.209 --> 00:27:44.618 maintain their grip on power, even at the expense of the well-being of the people that they govern. 00:27:45.221 --> 00:28:01.431 And I really do, not to get political, but I feel like a lot of people that are maybe have more of those narcissistic traits or tendencies or emotional immaturity could find themselves in positions of power, especially political power, because, boy, not again, not wanting to get overly political. 00:28:01.965 --> 00:28:11.551 But there have been some political leaders that I have found to be very, very incredibly narcissistic to the point where books have been written about some of these political leaders and their narcissism. 00:28:11.551 --> 00:28:16.693 And for my chair as a person who works with the narcissistic trait tendencies population, 00:28:17.125 --> 00:28:21.871 that when I watch someone say something in the moment, and they say it, and they immediately 00:28:21.871 --> 00:28:25.711 take a one-up position on everybody else around them, they don't take ownership of what they've 00:28:25.711 --> 00:28:30.911 done, and then they move on to the next city or the next topic or the next subject, and now here's 00:28:30.911 --> 00:28:35.631 a completely different message. And again, no accountability anyway. Then I can start to look 00:28:35.631 --> 00:28:40.831 at this and say, oh, that is such the trappings of narcissism. But I remember a client of mine 00:28:40.831 --> 00:28:45.711 coming in one time and who had no idea about what narcissistic traits or tendencies or 00:28:45.711 --> 00:28:49.992 personality disorder was. And they were referring to this political leader and they were saying, 00:28:50.235 --> 00:28:54.191 but the person said it and what they said from a position of power and authority. 00:28:54.191 --> 00:28:59.166 So they wouldn't lie because they are a politician. And, oh, I remember having this 00:28:59.310 --> 00:29:03.871 a little bit of a pit in my stomach and mixed with an aha moment of, oh man, yeah. What it 00:29:03.871 --> 00:29:07.808 feels like to be me is someone who works in this world of emotional immaturity and narcissism, 00:29:08.258 --> 00:29:12.930 and sees, I feel clearly some people that do not take ownership of things, even when they're in 00:29:13.231 --> 00:29:17.071 video and they are in print, but then to somebody else, they're trying to make sense of it. And 00:29:17.071 --> 00:29:20.191 they're saying, well, if they said one thing one time and another thing the other time. 00:29:20.906 --> 00:29:24.271 Then there must be a reason because they wouldn't not tell the truth. 00:29:24.271 --> 00:29:26.351 As a matter of fact, there might even be a hidden code in there somewhere. 00:29:27.082 --> 00:29:30.751 And so that's where even some of the things like the paranoia and the conspiracy theories and that 00:29:30.751 --> 00:29:35.391 sort of thing come into play. So a couple other examples of the malignant narcissism, an abusive 00:29:35.391 --> 00:29:39.551 partner who uses their charm and charisma to control and manipulate their partner, isolating 00:29:39.551 --> 00:29:43.311 them from family and friends, and gaslighting them into believing that their abusive behavior 00:29:43.311 --> 00:29:48.939 is justified. That kind of that siren song or clinical, these real common examples of just 00:29:49.020 --> 00:29:54.991 true narcissism. Because in that partner, the malignant narcissist may have this sense of 00:29:54.991 --> 00:29:59.231 entitlement, but then they also have a lack of empathy for their partner's feelings, and they 00:29:59.231 --> 00:30:02.751 view them only as objects to be controlled or exploited for their benefit because that is how 00:30:02.751 --> 00:30:05.773 how they get their sense of self, their narcissistic supply. 00:30:06.701 --> 00:30:10.231 Or you can see that if we're talking about this in politics, then it can also easily 00:30:10.231 --> 00:30:13.591 translate over into the business world and a successful business executive maybe who 00:30:13.591 --> 00:30:18.151 puts their interests and desires above those of their employees, and they exploit and they 00:30:18.151 --> 00:30:22.806 manipulate things for their own gain. So this executive then would also lack empathy for the, 00:30:23.351 --> 00:30:26.866 struggles or the concerns that their employees, the people that are literally doing the work to 00:30:26.983 --> 00:30:32.151 maybe make them the money, so that the leader is willing to engage in unethical or even illegal 00:30:32.151 --> 00:30:37.111 behavior to maintain their position or power or influence. And then what do they do? Then they 00:30:37.111 --> 00:30:42.151 gaslight, manipulate, use manipulation tactics to deflect criticism and maintain their image. 00:30:43.007 --> 00:30:46.220 As a successful and admired leader. And I'll just kind of throw out there, boy, 00:30:46.311 --> 00:30:51.271 if you've ever looked into the Theranos case, and there's a really good, there's a couple of 00:30:51.271 --> 00:30:55.671 good documentaries out there, but there's a series on Hulu about that. And that is where you, 00:30:55.671 --> 00:31:01.591 I feel like just is such an example of that business executive who does things for their 00:31:01.591 --> 00:31:07.484 own benefit. That's all the time we have today, but thanks for joining me on this part two of two, 00:31:07.682 --> 00:31:13.031 and we've now covered these five types of narcissism. And if you want to hang on a little 00:31:13.031 --> 00:31:18.311 bit here, what I'm going to do is I'm going to play the first 20 or so minutes of episode one 00:31:18.311 --> 00:31:23.351 of Murder on the Couch with my daughter, Sydney, and it would mean the world if you would go 00:31:23.454 --> 00:31:29.071 subscribe, sign up where you listen to podcasts on YouTube, and I just really appreciate the support 00:31:29.512 --> 00:31:33.591 and would love to get your feedback on those platforms as well. And continue to send in your 00:31:33.591 --> 00:31:37.591 questions, your comments. I've got a lot of good stories and questions. So I want you to know the 00:31:37.591 --> 00:31:43.403 people that are sending those in. I love reading them and I love it. They break my heart, but I 00:31:43.591 --> 00:31:48.912 appreciate the time and effort that people spend in sending me their ahas, their waking up, their 00:31:49.191 --> 00:31:53.450 stories, laying them all out. I would love to do just a whole other podcast that's nothing but 00:31:53.671 --> 00:31:59.256 at Narcissist Stories, I need to go find the name for that one and trademark that right away. 00:31:59.913 --> 00:32:03.838 But just keep sending those in because I see you. I hear you. I know the work that you're doing. 00:32:04.306 --> 00:32:06.871 You're on a path you went from. 00:32:06.871 --> 00:32:09.831 I didn't know. I did not know this. One of the ones I got last night. 00:32:09.831 --> 00:32:15.151 And I shall maybe know who this is. But she started off by looking at right here. 00:32:15.226 --> 00:32:22.644 Hello. I know you've heard this a thousand times, but your Waking Up to Narcissism podcast has helped me walk through a very dark and difficult period of my life. 00:32:22.711 --> 00:32:43.097 She said, like you always say, you didn't know what you didn't know and boy, I sure didn't know and I just want her to know I read the whole thing while I was eating my my dinner last night and at the end, it ends just so poetically with and now I know what I didn't know, which I know is difficult, but I am grateful to even hopefully play a part of on that journey for people. 00:32:43.493 --> 00:32:47.051 So, send me your questions, send me your comments, send me your stories, even if it's just from 00:32:47.238 --> 00:32:51.051 a therapeutic place for you to just express and get all this out, because I will read 00:32:51.051 --> 00:32:52.135 them and I do see you. 00:32:52.851 --> 00:32:55.411 And I will also see you next time on Waking Up To Narcissism. 00:32:55.411 --> 00:32:58.275 Now stay tuned for Murder on the Couch. 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:09.520 Music. 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:18.729 Hey, Sid. Hey, dad. Welcome to our, well, no, no, no, no, no, no. Are you kidding me 00:33:18.729 --> 00:33:24.489 right now? Are you serious? I'm the pro. Do you care about this podcast at all? I've only 00:33:24.489 --> 00:33:30.329 done 400 other podcasts in my life. Uh, okay. Welcome back to welcome to, okay. Look at 00:33:30.329 --> 00:33:36.009 you bro. Right. Hey everybody. Welcome to murder on the couch. I am your host. I think 00:33:36.009 --> 00:33:41.432 I'm the co-host. We're both co-hosts. I think, but I like you being the host. Okay. I'm the 00:33:41.729 --> 00:33:46.689 host. This is your host, Sydney Overbay. This is Tony Overbay. I'm so used to going into 00:33:46.689 --> 00:33:50.649 the whole spiel. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit 00:33:50.649 --> 00:33:55.889 coach or all that stuff. And I'm a college dropout, but a world traveler nonetheless. 00:33:56.384 --> 00:34:01.209 Can you technically be called a dropout if you really kind of didn't attend? Right? Because 00:34:01.209 --> 00:34:05.489 it was during the whole COVID thing. That's true. I did attempt attending a couple of 00:34:05.489 --> 00:34:12.049 So no, well, yes, but no. Did you ever get on the zoom calls or anything for college? 00:34:12.049 --> 00:34:17.889 I would bring my laptop into the car and then I would just drive around while the zoom was just 00:34:17.990 --> 00:34:21.889 playing. So you were attending technically. I was attending. Was that in your height of 00:34:21.889 --> 00:34:28.929 your door dash days? So were you, see, you were working hard while she's going to school 00:34:28.929 --> 00:34:34.923 And then just never again, we're excited to bring you true crime meets therapy. 00:34:35.508 --> 00:34:41.329 Exactly. So you're going to get the insight of a therapist, a real life therapist and the insight of someone 00:34:41.329 --> 00:34:43.079 who needs therapy. That's true. 00:34:43.367 --> 00:34:49.894 So this is going to be really exciting. And then the format, which I am so excited about is I am not going to prepare at all. 00:34:50.329 --> 00:34:53.972 So these stories are going to be new to me, which I'm really excited about that. 00:34:54.369 --> 00:35:02.169 No, yeah. I have been doing so much research on this case. I've read every article, I've gone to every corner, and it's crazy. 00:35:02.317 --> 00:35:05.369 Okay. It's really insane. So what are we talking about today? What's the case? 00:35:05.369 --> 00:35:18.773 We are going to be talking about the disappearance and then dismemberment of Abby Choi. 00:35:19.547 --> 00:35:27.749 If you're listening to this, please check out the YouTube version because there's so many videos. 00:35:27.957 --> 00:35:30.566 I feel like it really changes something when you put a face to the name. 00:35:30.957 --> 00:35:33.877 Also what if it has like four views? That would be really humbling. 00:35:33.877 --> 00:35:35.355 So you should really go check it out. 00:35:35.680 --> 00:35:42.440 Okay, bye. Abby Choi was a mother of four, a social media influencer, a model, a socialite. 00:35:42.857 --> 00:35:47.677 She was so well known by everyone. Before we get into this case, I want to make a little disclaimer. 00:35:47.677 --> 00:35:52.208 I feel like a lot of the coverage on true crime that has been coming out lately is a 00:35:52.379 --> 00:35:56.844 lot more exploitative than informative, if that makes sense. 00:35:57.006 --> 00:36:01.477 A lot of it is just like, oh, we want the gory details, you know, the shock factor. 00:36:01.477 --> 00:36:03.457 It's gross sometimes. 00:36:03.622 --> 00:36:06.935 And I really don't want that to be what this podcast is about. 00:36:07.232 --> 00:36:12.837 I want this to be about the facts, about, in this case, Abby, and we're not romanticizing 00:36:12.837 --> 00:36:15.532 the killers or anything. That's not what this is going to be about. 00:36:15.597 --> 00:36:21.015 But yeah, I've been waiting to tell you about this for so long because it's been driving me crazy. 00:36:21.257 --> 00:36:26.938 Okay. And I like what you're saying. So then I don't have to prepare my over-the-top reactions then, uh, you know, how, right? 00:36:27.398 --> 00:36:30.674 What? Or I don't have to do any of those because I don't do that very well. 00:36:30.737 --> 00:36:33.737 No, no, this is going to be real. This is going to be real. Okay. 00:36:33.737 --> 00:36:35.310 Which if that's the case, are you prepared for me to interrupt? 00:36:35.737 --> 00:36:40.017 Kind of like I just did there, but with, uh, amazing therapeutic knowledge around. 00:36:40.017 --> 00:36:45.337 This is one of the fun things about me and my dad's conversations is nobody ever stops talking. 00:36:45.337 --> 00:36:50.177 We just interrupt each other back and forth until the conversation in the therapy world. 00:36:50.177 --> 00:36:56.079 I call it flow. Exactly. When people don't appreciate that, they call it annoying, but 00:36:56.297 --> 00:36:59.857 I like the flow. Let's talk about the case. I want to give a little credit. I want to 00:36:59.857 --> 00:37:04.537 give a lot of credit to Stephanie Sue. She's a true crime YouTuber. She's like one of the 00:37:04.537 --> 00:37:09.393 biggest people out there right now. I enjoy those. You turned me onto her rotten mango 00:37:09.501 --> 00:37:14.397 is the name of her podcast. She goes to town on these cases and gives all of the articles 00:37:14.397 --> 00:37:17.342 articles that she used for research and stuff. So that really helped me with this credit 00:37:17.717 --> 00:37:24.597 to her. And we'll have links to some of the articles that you'll refer to in the show notes as well. I will be doing that. Apparently that's 00:37:24.652 --> 00:37:32.736 what you do. Of course. Let's talk about Abby. Okay. First, Abby was born on July 11th, 1994 00:37:32.997 --> 00:37:37.517 in Hong Kong. Trying to do the math right now. 1994 when she disappeared, she was 28 00:37:37.517 --> 00:37:43.357 years old. Okay. Super young. Yeah. She is the oldest of two sisters. So she has two 00:37:43.357 --> 00:37:47.917 younger sisters, and she has four children. 00:37:48.382 --> 00:37:54.881 Four children by 28. All of her friends and family have nothing but nice, like everyone 00:37:54.962 --> 00:38:00.952 loves this girl. She has such a genuine heart and a good spirit. Her current husband described her 00:38:00.952 --> 00:38:08.232 as, and I quote, kind hearted and good person who always wanted to help others. Hearing him talk 00:38:08.232 --> 00:38:13.112 about her was so sad, but so sweet. He was just saying how lucky his kids were to have her as a 00:38:13.112 --> 00:38:20.312 mother. She was from a very, very wealthy family. So she grew up very comfortable, but she wasn't 00:38:20.403 --> 00:38:26.472 like a bratty rich kid in any way. She seemed to be the opposite of that. Her parents actually 00:38:26.472 --> 00:38:31.672 owned a huge construction business that ran throughout China. So she was very well known. 00:38:32.392 --> 00:38:38.152 But like I said, she was not bratty at all. She was actually really, really giving. She was the 00:38:38.152 --> 00:38:44.632 co-founder of Hong Kong's, and I'm sorry if I pronounced anything wrong, Pei-O-Mez Charitable 00:38:44.632 --> 00:38:48.872 Organization, which was an animal rescue organization. She's a good person. 00:38:48.872 --> 00:38:54.027 Chris Bounds Having means, but then also still co-founding a charity for innocent animals. Nicole Rastogi 00:38:54.099 --> 00:38:58.632 Exactly. And I feel like when somebody is nice to animals, it really says something about their 00:38:58.632 --> 00:39:03.112 character because there's nothing in it for you when you're nice to an animal. They're not going 00:39:03.112 --> 00:39:08.295 going to be able to give you anything. So it shows a lot of selflessness, I think. 00:39:08.672 --> 00:39:13.592 One of her friends even tells a story about a time when they were walking down the road 00:39:13.592 --> 00:39:18.832 and they saw a very badly injured cat, had just been hit by a car. He said there was 00:39:18.832 --> 00:39:25.032 flies around it and stuff already. And Abby was like, no, we are saving this cat. I don't 00:39:25.032 --> 00:39:30.432 care. Her friend was literally telling her, that is a corpse, don't. And she said, no, 00:39:30.432 --> 00:39:32.712 I'm going to save this cat." And she did. 00:39:32.712 --> 00:39:34.432 And the cat is doing so much better now. 00:39:34.644 --> 00:39:35.266 Really? 00:39:35.563 --> 00:39:39.704 Okay. So you spent time, you volunteered at an animal shelter in Costa Rica for two months? 00:39:39.821 --> 00:39:41.297 Mm-hmm. Did you save any cats like that? 00:39:41.952 --> 00:39:43.782 I was attacked by cats. 00:39:44.691 --> 00:39:48.691 I was attacked by cats. I was attacked by rats. Chad Jordan Bats. 00:39:49.147 --> 00:39:50.691 Nicole Rosenthal There were bats. Chad Jordan There were bats. Dogs? 00:39:50.691 --> 00:39:51.209 Nicole Rosenthal Dogs. 00:39:51.691 --> 00:39:54.811 Chad Jordan But what was that like though? Nicole Rosenthal All of the volunteers that would come in 00:39:54.811 --> 00:40:00.891 and out, they were all such good people. You don't really catch a crappy person volunteering 00:40:00.891 --> 00:40:03.891 at an animal shelter. Chad Jordan No. Nicole Rosenthal Just like I would- 00:40:03.891 --> 00:40:04.891 Chad Jordan Because what's in it for them, right? 00:40:05.009 --> 00:40:10.411 Nicole Rosenthal Exactly. Yeah. Just like I would presume you wouldn't catch a bratty rich person literally starting a charity for animals. 00:40:10.411 --> 00:40:16.171 Chad Jordan Okay. First experience as therapists working with people that have money at times. One guy told me, and I thought this was so good. 00:40:16.171 --> 00:40:20.131 He said that money makes you more of whatever you are. So if you're a jerk, you become a 00:40:20.131 --> 00:40:24.731 bigger jerk. But if you're a kind person, then you're even more kind. I like that. So 00:40:24.731 --> 00:40:28.251 it sounds like she took the money and became even kinder and more charitable. 00:40:28.251 --> 00:40:34.891 She was also a very, very successful model and influencer. Socialite is what they call 00:40:35.185 --> 00:40:40.739 it, I think, online. And she worked hard at this. Okay. I was stalking her Instagram. 00:40:41.051 --> 00:40:46.851 A creepy way, but sure. Research side note. I was thinking if I ever not even wanting 00:40:46.851 --> 00:40:52.131 to put this into the universe, but if I ever went missing, please use cute pictures of 00:40:52.131 --> 00:40:57.091 me, please. So that's what I was researching pictures of her on like the, like just regular 00:40:57.091 --> 00:41:01.811 images. And then I was like, if this were me, I would want people to use approved Sydney 00:41:01.811 --> 00:41:07.251 approved pictures. So I went onto her Instagram and she's a hardworking model. Okay. Like 00:41:07.251 --> 00:41:12.691 It seemed like she was somewhere new, not even every week, like every other day she. 00:41:13.264 --> 00:41:19.125 Was on runway. She was modeling for everyone featured in Vogue. She was featured in L. 00:41:19.395 --> 00:41:28.931 She was a regular attendee at Paris fashion week. Um, I can, I can say I have never been invited to Paris fashion week. If that's what that 00:41:28.931 --> 00:41:34.371 says. I wonder why. I don't know why it was called lost in the mail. Yeah. I guess I've 00:41:34.371 --> 00:41:38.811 already done one shout out for Stephanie. So how about one for Paris fashion? I don't. 00:41:39.731 --> 00:41:40.411 Know why that's so funny. 00:41:40.758 --> 00:41:44.331 I'm going to be putting a lot of pictures on the screen right now, just of her at all 00:41:44.331 --> 00:41:49.411 of her shoots and stuff because she looks amazing. She's so cool. One thing that just 00:41:49.411 --> 00:41:54.811 kept growing and growing as I was researching this case was my love for this girl. She's 00:41:54.981 --> 00:41:59.707 so cool. So this is one of my favorite looks that she did. I'm kind of excited to see this. 00:41:59.931 --> 00:42:03.851 They kept calling her a fashion icon. And at first I was like fashion icon, like that's 00:42:03.851 --> 00:42:05.270 Such a cringy word to say. 00:42:05.411 --> 00:42:09.971 No, she is a fashion icon. Look at this look. She's literally so cool. 00:42:09.971 --> 00:42:13.148 She's wearing like leg warmer boots. 00:42:13.371 --> 00:42:18.477 Like I don't even know, a Chanel little dress thing. And like, she is so cool. 00:42:19.053 --> 00:42:23.463 I want to be here. Look at her bag. Look at that bag. It's literally like, it looks like a perfume 00:42:23.463 --> 00:42:29.143 bottle. The things she's involved in designing are so sick. There's so many pictures of her 00:42:29.143 --> 00:42:34.103 with animals in nature, like doing arts and painting and drawing. Like she was really, 00:42:34.103 --> 00:42:38.503 she just seemed really talented. Yeah. I'm probably going to cut this out, 00:42:38.503 --> 00:42:44.023 but there is this one picture that I found on her Instagram and look how she's sitting. I'm 00:42:44.023 --> 00:42:50.583 literally I'm the only person that I know who sits like that. I don't put it up on the screen. 00:42:50.583 --> 00:42:53.865 You must keep that in because I have, I've literally talked to your mom about how do, 00:42:54.423 --> 00:42:59.783 you do that? Because I think I would pop every leg and tendon in my body on a hard chair no less. 00:42:59.783 --> 00:43:04.743 Knees of steel. Now, last February 14th, the middle of March right now. 00:43:04.743 --> 00:43:09.205 Oh, so not last, like last year, this year, February 14th, Valentine's day. 00:43:09.383 --> 00:43:15.663 Valentine's Day, just a few weeks ago, she posted her last Instagram posts. And it was 00:43:15.663 --> 00:43:20.903 a repost of her on the cover of La Officielle magazine. I don't know. 00:43:20.903 --> 00:43:21.808 Chris Bounds One of my favorites. 00:43:21.903 --> 00:43:30.639 Nicole LaRose It's been featured there many times. And they titled her one of the most sought out influencers in the industry. So her career was booming. 00:43:30.903 --> 00:43:34.510 She was getting bigger and bigger every day. Chris Bounds So she was 28. Nicole LaRose Yeah. 00:43:34.983 --> 00:43:43.575 Chris Bounds Okay. Nicole LaRose Only 28 years old. There's a theory, some believe in psychology around 27 is when you start really taking off in life. 00:43:43.918 --> 00:43:47.824 Athletes are at their prime at 27, so I wonder if that's an influencer thing as well. 00:43:47.950 --> 00:43:52.857 So she's in her prime. Little did anyone know, she would disappear, just... 00:43:53.325 --> 00:43:58.539 Like 10 days after that. So first, I'm going to take you to the crime scene before we really 00:43:58.539 --> 00:44:05.459 get into it. So this was February 24th. Police finally get enough information to go investigate. 00:44:05.459 --> 00:44:10.479 Abby's been missing for three days at this point. So police go to investigate this creepy 00:44:10.479 --> 00:44:16.899 apartment on the bottom of three floors in Lung Mei Tsuen, a seaside village in Hong 00:44:16.899 --> 00:44:19.593 Kong. C-Sides. I'm sure it was pretty nice, I would imagine. 00:44:19.899 --> 00:44:25.419 Yes. It was nice. It was like a very public, really popular area. And immediately as the 00:44:25.419 --> 00:44:31.899 police pulled up, they knew that something was wrong because the house was so creepy. 00:44:31.899 --> 00:44:38.039 There were long black tarps covering all of the windows and all of the entrances. Neighbors 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:43.846 also had been sussed out for weeks before this. I know what that means. They were suspicious. 00:44:44.299 --> 00:44:47.659 The neighbors said that they'd never seen anyone spend the night at this house, but 00:44:47.659 --> 00:44:53.459 just kept seeing people kind of show up and leave. And they saw this old man who was just 00:44:53.712 --> 00:44:58.539 like chain smoking on the side. He looked stressed out, but nobody knew who he was at 00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:04.299 this point. So the police opened the door and the floors are covered in plastic. 00:45:04.911 --> 00:45:07.779 That's not good. I mean, unless they're painting the ceiling. 00:45:07.779 --> 00:45:12.545 The ceiling was not being painted. I can confirm. The house was completely empty. 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.300 So no furniture or anything like that? Zero furniture. 00:45:15.619 --> 00:45:21.679 Okay. Now this is really creepy. As they walk deeper into the apartment, they are faced with what one article describes 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:24.879 as a human butcher shop. 00:45:24.879 --> 00:45:32.439 Upon further investigation, police found Abby's remains not only in the fridge, but also cooked 00:45:32.439 --> 00:45:37.427 into two pots of soup with carrots and radishes. 00:45:39.083 --> 00:45:46.453 I don't even know what to say. Absolutely not. Yeah. There's nothing to say. Now, who would 00:45:46.453 --> 00:45:53.733 want to do this to such a kind, good-hearted mother of four? What if I told you that it was 00:45:53.733 --> 00:46:01.904 not only the father of her own two children, but his entire family? And not only that, 00:46:02.192 --> 00:46:08.143 but what if I told you this entire family was living under the roof of a luxury apartment 00:46:08.503 --> 00:46:14.373 that Abby bought them herself. Okay. I don't, I was already kind of stumped a few minutes ago, 00:46:14.373 --> 00:46:18.213 but I don't even know what to say to that because you're, I mean, they couldn't. Yeah. 00:46:19.036 --> 00:46:24.453 Yeah. It's insane. Right. It really is. They bought, she bought them the place they're living 00:46:24.453 --> 00:46:30.373 in. Yes. And then they not only murder her. Right. And it was a month ago. I feel like the best way 00:46:30.505 --> 00:46:37.093 to understand this case is to start with Abby's ex in-laws, the Kwang family. Okay. They are shady 00:46:37.093 --> 00:46:41.933 as fuck, let me tell you. But just laying it out first so you can kind of get a feel 00:46:41.933 --> 00:46:43.933 for who's- You have a family tree almost? 00:46:43.933 --> 00:46:50.613 Yeah, a little family tree moment. So first we have Quang Quao. He is the father-in-law, 00:46:50.613 --> 00:46:57.793 the ex-father-in-law of Abby, and he's married to Jenny Lee. They have two sons together. 00:46:57.793 --> 00:47:03.633 The oldest one's name is Anthony Quang and Alex Quang, and this is going to be Abby's 00:47:03.696 --> 00:47:08.953 ex-husband. I feel like to really understand this, we have to start all the way at the 00:47:08.953 --> 00:47:14.713 top with Kwan Kwao. So let's get into that. Now, this is her ex-father-in-law, so... 00:47:14.713 --> 00:47:15.921 Michael Stelzner X husband's dad, okay. 00:47:16.073 --> 00:47:24.033 Nicole Leung Yes. This is all the way back in the early 2000s. He was a former police sergeant in the Hong Kong Police Department. And at this 00:47:24.033 --> 00:47:29.273 point, they were doing pretty well for their family, I believe. He loved this job. He was 00:47:29.273 --> 00:47:35.433 obsessed with this job. It was his entire identity. He was good at it at first. You could say. 00:47:35.897 --> 00:47:42.927 If that's the right word. He was awarded the Hong Kong Police Long Service Medal in 2001. 00:47:42.927 --> 00:47:47.447 I think he even got another medal at some point too. He was confident. He loved being 00:47:47.447 --> 00:47:52.137 a police officer. He loved the authority and most of all, he loved the power. 00:47:52.287 --> 00:47:54.730 And- Like there's a little foreshadowing maybe? 00:47:54.927 --> 00:48:00.127 Yes, definitely. It's crazy though. And I like the way that you laid it out because now my brain is going 00:48:00.127 --> 00:48:03.927 a million miles an hour of the whole family is involved. And now we're talking about a 00:48:03.927 --> 00:48:05.307 a decorated police officer. 00:48:05.847 --> 00:48:12.927 Everything's going fine for Quan Quao until 2005 when a woman walks into the police station, 00:48:12.927 --> 00:48:18.559 a victim of a crime. She's in distress, obviously. He took a liking to her immediately and he 00:48:18.727 --> 00:48:23.567 felt connected to her for some reason, for whatever reason, and he was listening to her 00:48:23.567 --> 00:48:30.207 and really making her feel like he cared and he cared about the case and getting her justice. 00:48:30.207 --> 00:48:36.887 She actually felt very appreciative of this. I bet she felt safe, I would imagine, heard, seen, okay, which is so important in a situation 00:48:36.887 --> 00:48:41.447 like that. He's calling her outside of the investigation at this point and stuff, and she still thinks 00:48:41.447 --> 00:48:43.261 it's just for the investigation. 00:48:43.447 --> 00:48:44.962 Like he's that good of a police officer. 00:48:45.287 --> 00:48:49.247 She goes home that night and she goes to sleep, finally thinks that someone's listening to 00:48:49.247 --> 00:48:53.687 her case, everything's going great, and then she wakes up to a loud knocking on her door 00:48:53.687 --> 00:48:57.287 at like five or six in the morning, which first of all, why are you knocking on my door 00:48:57.287 --> 00:48:58.627 at five or six in the morning? 00:48:58.627 --> 00:49:02.507 She does answer the door though because it's police officer Kwan Kwao. 00:49:02.868 --> 00:49:05.920 And already the power imbalance there. Of course she's going to answer the door, right? 00:49:06.107 --> 00:49:10.667 So she lets him in. He says it's for the investigation or whatever. 00:49:10.667 --> 00:49:16.974 And he allegedly raped her. Oh, oh man. In her own home. OK. 00:49:17.839 --> 00:49:24.590 So, I have to say allegedly because he resigned immediately after this. 00:49:25.069 --> 00:49:27.629 So that there wouldn't be an investigation? 00:49:27.629 --> 00:49:31.629 Charges were dropped. They were. Okay. Exactly. 00:49:31.629 --> 00:49:34.952 And again, allegedly, hypothetically, there could have been a deal made or you quit and 00:49:35.149 --> 00:49:37.189 we let this thing go or who knows? 00:49:37.410 --> 00:49:38.895 Yeah, who knows? Yeah. 00:49:39.189 --> 00:49:43.629 But it's pretty suspicious that as somebody who was so in love with this job, it was his 00:49:43.629 --> 00:49:48.203 entire identity. him to resign immediately after. I don't know. It's just kind of suspicious to me. 00:49:48.509 --> 00:49:56.909 So alleged, but it seems a little fishy. Very fishy. This was all the way in 2005. She had nothing to gain from condemning a 00:49:57.107 --> 00:50:01.909 police officer. As a woman, I don't see what she would have gotten out of that. And just 00:50:01.909 --> 00:50:07.229 the fact that he didn't even try to defend it when this job was his entire life is very 00:50:07.229 --> 00:50:09.403 suspicious to me. Oh yeah. So then all of a sudden he just quits. 00:50:09.899 --> 00:50:16.729 Yeah. He quits. The one thing that gave him like character. Again, alleged, but I can only imagine, what do you say that, yeah, I just ran over there 00:50:16.729 --> 00:50:17.523 at five in the morning. 00:50:17.729 --> 00:50:21.322 Yeah, exactly. To give her an update. Like what update? Yeah. 00:50:21.729 --> 00:50:23.729 And it's like, if he had one, then he would have had a defense. 00:50:23.729 --> 00:50:30.309 It just doesn't make sense. The abuse of power, by the way, I mean, cause that, that stuff, when somebody is that vulnerable 00:50:30.309 --> 00:50:34.029 and open and then you trust and you feel heard and understood and because in my world of 00:50:34.029 --> 00:50:38.889 therapy, you get these things where people make claims against therapists and you get 00:50:38.889 --> 00:50:43.449 monthly update and every therapist I think will go check out what the accusations are 00:50:43.449 --> 00:50:47.915 and they're almost always someone ended up having an affair or sex with their client. 00:50:48.726 --> 00:50:52.376 And they lose their license, they get fined because it's like, here's this person that 00:50:52.376 --> 00:50:59.456 is opening up and vulnerable and trusting you. And then there's this therapist that's saying, I feel a connection. 00:50:59.636 --> 00:51:03.456 That's right. The power imbalance. Yeah. The power imbalance is bad. 00:51:03.456 --> 00:51:09.536 Is crazy. Like, and just like to re-traumatize this girl who's already been through something 00:51:09.536 --> 00:51:16.029 so traumatizing to make her feel safe. And then to take advantage of that. 00:51:16.316 --> 00:51:20.863 It's absolutely repulsive. I couldn't even believe that one said is bad. 00:51:21.256 --> 00:51:26.756 He resigns. The charges are dropped and he basically just never tries to get a job again. 00:51:26.756 --> 00:51:30.100 His life kind of just plateaus from there. He doesn't want a job. 00:51:30.536 --> 00:51:34.772 He doesn't try to get one according to all the online records. 00:51:34.956 --> 00:51:41.722 It seems that he just felt as though he was entitled to the world, but he didn't have to work for it. 00:51:41.916 --> 00:51:46.436 I feel like there's has to be some form of narcissism that runs through the Kwang family 00:51:46.436 --> 00:51:52.836 because they think they are gods. And it's like, bro, what? You literally assaulted someone. 00:51:52.836 --> 00:51:56.356 Wait, let's jump into the old therapy world because I work with, you know, this is a big 00:51:56.356 --> 00:52:00.356 population of narcissistic personality disorder, people that struggle with that. And there's a 00:52:00.356 --> 00:52:04.840 concept called confabulation, which is the narcissist is creating a new narrative of 00:52:05.076 --> 00:52:09.156 what really happened in real time so that it couldn't have been them. So that's where I feel 00:52:09.156 --> 00:52:12.798 like, you know, somebody might resign, but it isn't because they did anything wrong. It's because 00:52:13.140 --> 00:52:16.916 they are the ones, people don't understand them. They go victim status, you know? 00:52:16.916 --> 00:52:20.596 Yeah. Of course he wouldn't fight it because he knew that he would be wrong deep down. 00:52:21.156 --> 00:52:25.396 And then why would he try to get a job when now he thinks everybody's against them and, 00:52:25.527 --> 00:52:29.740 you know, what's he going to do? And it's just a way for that person to still justify their behavior. 00:52:29.812 --> 00:52:35.956 So four years of unemployment pass on his part, and then he becomes essentially 00:52:35.956 --> 00:52:45.236 Abbie Choi's sugar baby. Let me explain. In 2009, Abbie Choi meets Alex Kwong. 00:52:45.236 --> 00:52:49.556 So she's about 15 then at this point? Yes. She's 15 years old. He's also 15. 00:52:49.556 --> 00:52:54.116 Okay. And Alex Kwong is Kwong Kwa's son, as we know. 00:52:54.116 --> 00:53:00.436 We can assume that Kwong Kwa was pretty excited when they met because Abbie Choi was from a very, 00:53:00.436 --> 00:53:04.276 very wealthy family. Of course, we don't know all the details and facts about that, 00:53:04.276 --> 00:53:10.516 but with what ends up happening, suspicious on his part and on Alex Kwong's part. So they stay 00:53:10.516 --> 00:53:18.356 together for three years and then they get married at age 18. And then they pop out a baby within the 00:53:18.356 --> 00:53:26.276 same year when they were only 18 years old. So very, very young marriage. Never do that. Anybody 00:53:26.276 --> 00:53:27.716 Don't get married at 18. 00:53:27.716 --> 00:53:30.901 Do you know how old your mom and I were? What? 00:53:32.117 --> 00:53:42.856 She was 19. I was 20. Did you know that? No, I didn't actually know. We were, we thought, 00:53:43.647 --> 00:53:50.859 wait, really? I just sat in. I thought you were like 24. Honestly. Wow. I was 20. She was 19. 00:53:51.175 --> 00:53:55.327 I had a full head of hair. I had as much hair as I had ever had in my entire life. 00:53:55.887 --> 00:53:59.487 And, but we really did think we were old. I know. I got it. If you're balding, 00:53:59.487 --> 00:54:09.332 Mary Young. Honestly, that is the more you know. She she was like, I caught her on my way down and her way up. 00:54:11.250 --> 00:54:16.687 So you guys met in the middle, but then it was just you were winning power balance. Yeah, that was probably one of the 00:54:16.858 --> 00:54:22.927 greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life that in the first Black Friday, wherever got like a Nintendo one with the 00:54:22.927 --> 00:54:28.927 Walmart like at two in the morning. Those two things are some of the greatest timing that I've ever had in my life. 00:54:28.927 --> 00:54:34.047 You did not just relate your marriage to, let me call mom right now and see what she 00:54:34.047 --> 00:54:36.294 has to say. Do you know how old I am right now? 00:54:37.047 --> 00:54:42.181 Ooh, 70? Okay. What? I don't think I'm 70. 00:54:43.047 --> 00:54:49.473 But yeah, so they got married at 18 though. I mean, that is, that's really, really young. 00:54:49.647 --> 00:54:54.447 He was really excited because Abby Choi's parents, they were very wealthy and Abby was 00:54:54.447 --> 00:54:57.512 also wealthy herself. He ended up having a network. 00:54:57.520 --> 00:55:09.557 Music.