Music.
Hey, welcome to episode 71 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and also host of the Virtual Couch Podcast.
And now, yes, it has finally been released.
The trailer is out of Murder on the Couch, the true crime meets therapy podcast
with my daughter, Sydney.
Please go find that. I'll have a link in the show notes. And the actual episode one drops on Monday,
but you can go follow or subscribe right now. The trailer is up there.
And even that, she's put so much production work into it. I'm very excited about that.
Now, let me take you on my train of thought. One of my favorite things to do,
when I ended last week's episode, episode 70, where we were talking about the five different types of narcissism,
I had a lot of thoughts, a lot to say,
and I went on for 40 minutes, 45 minutes, and I only got through two of the five types of narcissism.
So I sat down to start up with the same article and go into number three,
which is called antagonistic narcissism.
But then I went down just an ADHD, narcissistic, emotionally immature rabbit hole
and started reading some research that was tied to the concepts around antagonistic narcissism
from this Psych Central article that I referenced last week.
And that just had me fascinated with some of the deeper concepts around antagonism,
and emotional immaturity and narcissism.
And then I found a Psychology Today article that I am going to take a break on part two.
We'll get to part two.
Next week, but we're gonna do a an entire episode on understanding the narcissist,
antagonistic attachment style because I love talking about attachment and this is from Julie Hall and she writes on
Psychology Today column called the narcissist in your life, but she's better known for another website that I've referred to.
She's the author of the narcissist in your life and founder of the narcissist family files and and she has amazing work there,
So I'll have a link to the narcissist family files as well. So I'm gonna use her article from psychology today
Understanding the narcissist antagonistic attachment style is sort of the backdrop or the muse for today's episode
And before we get to that I have a poem by a guy and it's somebody that has sent me some really good feedback and I really appreciated that so here
Is yet another shout out to anyone who is is a man who feels like they are in a relationship?
Relationship with an emotionally immature or narcissistic or borderline personality disordered wife,
or if you are a guy who feels like, you know what, I'm resonating with this maybe concept
around emotional immaturity, maybe not the biggest fan of being called a narcissist,
but I think that this is something I wanna do some work around, self-confront,
then please do email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and my amazing assistant Naomi has been reaching out
and contacting some of the people that have already send in inquiries so that we can put a group together soon.
So I would love to hear from you.
And then before I get to the poem though, I also love this and the person who sent me this,
I didn't know if she wanted me to say her name or not, but I'm guessing maybe she's a teacher,
but she just said one of her eighth grade students told her a joke.
So she sent me a joke and it just shows, I don't think eighth grade,
I had a clue about anything about, well, anything, narcissism, gaslighting, that sort of thing.
But so here's the joke. She said, one of my eighth grade students
me this one. Him. I've got a joke about gas lighting. Me. Oh, what is it? Him. I already told it to you.
If I had a more produced podcast, I would throw a little laugh track in there.
But that's kind of, I've got to hand it to an eighth grader for understanding that.
Okay, so let me get to the poem. And this was submitted by someone, a guy that has given me
some phenomenal feedback. And so I was really grateful for him to take the time to put together
a poem. And he literally titled it, Poem from a Guy, with a lot of exclamation points. I'm a big
fan of exclamation points. And he gave me permission to read this. 15 years. I can't
I can't believe I lived like that for 15 years.
It's hard to describe to somebody the depth and strength of constant fears.
Would she try to take my son away or leave me for broke? Was I the crazy one?
I wish all of it was a joke.
Slowly but surely, I stopped being the person that I was meant to be.
To avoid any conflict, I found myself in prison, but after so long, wanted to be free.
If I love her the right way, if I say the right thing, or pray hard enough, things will surely change.
The more I tried, the worse things got. I thought, man, this is really strange.
I wanted so badly to be understood, to feel safe or feel like I was heard.
Instead, I was told how I felt. I was torn down, lied to. Most times, I didn't say a word.
I was constantly accused of cheating when that was never, ever true.
Yet, when I caught her red-handed, she blamed me, what am I to do?
I tried to end it, I tried to leave, but kept repeating the cycle again and again.
While it was toxic and destructive, it was familiar, predictable, comfortable,
despite all of its pain.
There were times I wanted to take my own life. That's how desperate it seemed to be.
When I discovered waking up to narcissism, my eyes began to see.
I didn't know what I didn't know, and once I did, I couldn't go back.
This knowledge, this wisdom became power and put me on a forward track.
That doesn't mean I wasn't scared. In fact, it's been the most difficult thing I've ever done.
To stand up for myself and my child, our new life has begun.
I wish this was the end of the story, but our lives are still entangled.
As I continue to heal stronger each day, my heart becomes less mangled.
I hope one day I'll be fully free and even experience true love.
My faith has brought me this far and hope is a gift from above." That was beautiful. So, I appreciate you sending that. You know who you are.
So, thank you so much for sending that poem.
Okay, let's get to today's topic. So, understanding the narcissist antagonistic attachment style.
Julie Hall, here's what it means, what it looks like, and the damage that it does.
So, she talks and gives this overview. The key point, securely attached people, which I've tried to talk about more and more
over the last few episodes that the secure attachment, which I maintain that it is very rare to have had a secure attachment with your parent, just because we didn't talk about mental health.
We really didn't. So if you are old enough to be listening to a podcast, most likely you are still coming from this age of we're finally talking about mental health and emotions.
And we're we're saying that, OK, we need to do a better job of teaching emotional stability and emotional intelligence in particular.
So, securely attached people, though, have mutually supportive relationships.
And if you didn't see or have a secure attachment with parents, then you didn't know what you didn't know and you're jumping into relationships without understanding that a secure attachment means that you can be and think and feel the way that you want to feel and think and be.
And you can still maintain a relationship with someone and they don't see that as a slight or as a criticism and you don't have to be put down because of your beliefs. You can actually both share your beliefs.
She says narcissists have an antagonistic attachment style based on predation, competition, and parasitism.
That's where it's going to get really interesting. So the narcissist antagonism in relationships traumatizes individuals and families and even larger social groups.
And I think this does lead into that concept though when she says families around the narcissistic family system
and how that antagonistic style of the narcissist does keep everyone in the family walking on eggshells.
So, she says that humans are highly social, collaborative species with intricately complex interdependency.
Julie's speaking my language. When I talk about this codependency and this enmeshment, I mean, we really are these collaborative people
designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human, designed to solve projects in collaboration with another human.
But then when one of those humans needs to make sure that they're better, and that means everyone else is worse,
then this is where things become a problem.
So, she said, we raise children together, we work together, we learn together, we eat
together, we play together, the list goes on, and the glue that bonds us is this common
capacity and desire for attachment.
So this drive to connect and to share, protect, care, we are these pack animals.
We belong to a tribe, a herd.
The book, The Happiness Trap, lays it out so beautifully that one of the reasons it
can be so difficult to be happy is because we are so afraid of saying or doing the wrong
thing that will get us kicked out of the tribe.
Because our caveman brain still worries that if I am booted out of the tribe and I'm on the outside circle
I'm the first one to go. I'm the first one to be eaten by the the tiger the woolly mammoth
Whatever that looks like so we do though desire to connect share protect and care because that will bring us safety
But then how do we do that?
And how do we do that and then still feel like we are growing and and learning and not just trying to manage the whole,
Environment around us so that we don't get booted out.
So antagonistic attachment. She says securely attached humans approach relationships cooperatively.
They work together to achieve shared goals, seek and give empathetic validation.
They share accurate and truthful information. They express affection and vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in their relationships.
So even if there's a conflict, you can have a disagreement, but mutual support is the foundation of the relationship.
And respect and love are not at stake, even if people have disagreements, or even if people have different opinions and different values,
then that isn't a threat to the relationship because the mutual support is the foundation.
And if that mutual support is the foundation, then love and respect, those aren't at stake just because somebody has a different opinion.
She says, by contrast, for the narcissistic personality attachment with others is antagonistic.
A concept in biology, and this is the stuff that I did not even recognize the significance of the term antagonistic narcissism or antagonistic attachment.
But she said, antagonistic is a concept in biology that refers to a relationship in which,
one organism benefits at the expense of another.
So common forms of antagonism in nature are predation, basically talking about predators, competition, and parasitism.
So then I love that she lays these three dynamics out in narcissistic human relationships.
So we can, again, anywhere we're talking about narcissism, you can insert emotionally immature or unhealthy relationships.
Because we're talking a spectrum of behaviors. So predation. A predator typically kills and eats its prey to gain life-giving energy.
In a predatory human relationship, there may be murder, but more often there's a condition of ongoing domination and subjugation.
So because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for dominance, they emotionally and perhaps also physically and sexually oppress, intimidate, and violate others to experience and maintain feelings of power and control.
And sometimes simply keeping somebody off balance or not understanding what happened or what to say
or why did that work last time and it doesn't work
another time keeps that person off balance so that the predator still has this advantage.
She said, narcissistic displays of dominance may be flagrant forms of aggression
such as literally hitting or pushing, berating, name calling, playing favorites,
critiquing, monologuing, or we get into that world of passive aggression.
So passive aggressive maneuvers like dismissal, the silent treatment, backhanded compliments,
I'm just joking, I'm just kidding, those kind of barbs. Veiled threats, and then our beloved triangulation.
Even your doctor, even my doctor says that you're crazy.
Or I was talking with your sister. You know, all the people that I've been talking to
all agree that you are crazy.
So whatever the strategy, and however well it is rationalized or disguised,
the purpose is to bully the other person into submission.
So as a predator, they need that person to then fall into submission so that they have power.
So it sounds very dramatic, but I would imagine people listening
to this podcast right now can identify with times
where they felt like this is just a power struggle,
and that if I just give in and let go of the need to even have equality or reciprocity
or to be heard or understood, then it will be better.
And while it may get rid of your anxiety or get rid of the discomfort for a moment,
It's only feeding that narcissistic supply.
Number two, she talks about competition. So competition is another type of relational antagonism. It's a characteristic of narcissism,
So a narcissist approach relationships oppositionally viewing other people including and often their family members, especially their family members as,
Competitors competitors for resources if this person has it then I don't have it
I am putting together and I would love to call for submission but in an episode all about food
There is something that is just I don't know innately caveman-like or barbaric about emotional immaturity in food, as if all of a sudden this caveman
kicks in and then it is their food. They do not have to ask. They are taking, you know,
let me eat first. All of these things that just almost feel like predatory with a dose
of competition. But then again, family members as competitors for resources. The resources
could be tangible things, like food, but often they're intangible or are interpersonal resources
such as attention. So as if there is only a certain amount of attention to go around,
so I must take all of the attention and that is the competition to get the attention or
acknowledgement. There's our good friend validation. If I get all the validation, then I win and.
There isn't room for people to validate because that's even where you see the most, I want
to say adult of people, but that might be a little bit of a paradox that are saying,
but don't you like the way I did it better? But mine was better, right? And it can be
just that subtle and it may even feel like the person's joking, but that really
is the person needing that acknowledgement and that attention.
So also the intangible interpersonal resources could be inclusion or respect, admiration, or affection.
And I love that Julie says seeing life as a zero sum game in which they can only
win if someone else loses. That is such a key component.
Narcissists continually work to undermine and one up those around them.
And sometimes the one-up is taking a victim status to take a little one-under and then just jump back around and now I have you in my control because you're giving me attention, even from a victim standpoint.
So, narcissists continually work to undermine, again, that one-upping, while asserting their
superiority and greater entitlement.
So typical competitive narcissistic behaviors within families and then other social groups,
will include everything from comparing, you know, my stuff's better than their stuff,
or I bet that their stuff isn't even as nice as they think it is, or bragging, seems
kind of that one's pretty obvious, but over-talking, where I need to get my point across first.
I'm going to talk bigger. I'm going to one-up.
That is one of the things that I think is so fascinating. A long time ago, so protecting the emotionally immature, I remember being in a situation
where someone had pointed out to me, hey, just let me bring something up about one of
your kids and watch what happens with this other individual.
And I didn't understand where they were coming from. And I had a daughter at that time that had some success in long distance running.
And so this person brought it up because he knew that this other individual did not have
athletic kids, which is fine. But then that person didn't say anything other than, yeah,
a friend of mine's daughter was way better than that. And I just thought, man, that is
just in this person's nature or DNA that even if they can pull another person, someone else
that they can say, oh, I know someone that's better than somehow they win. So the over
talking the one upping the blaming, the cheating, you can watch adult human beings cheat like
crazy, even in things as simple as board games, because it's competition, whatever it takes
to win. Exaggerating. Narcissistic math. One of my favorite things. I remember
working for a company and we were talking about the the person would look over and say well how big's your company and and I we would all look over because
sometimes we were we were worth 50 million sometimes we were with a hundred
million and in reality and maybe we were worth a million dollars.
So that exaggeration, diminishing, excluding, applying double standards, distorting and withholding information, and then also taking undue credit.
These are the things that I never would have even thought that I would see, but I get the examples in my office where a couple will talk about a situation where the husband, this is the quick example that comes to mind,
is taking credit for something that he has confabulated or created a narrative around that the wife did.
The wife has documentation, pictures of all of everything about this particular project they were talking about,
but the husband had taken credit for it so many times that then she, in essence, kind of looked at me
and said, okay, watch this.
Hey, what do you remember about this situation, this thing that is in our yard?
And he said, man, one of the greatest decisions I ever made was to invest the money and the time to build that.
And she pulled me aside later and said, I don't even know if he was in town when I built it.
And so it can just be so fascinating to see the person take undue credit
because in their immature mind, again, that concept of confabulation or changing the narrative,
is he is so insecure that if his wife actually had made this thing that people really marveled at
and thought was pretty amazing,
then that would mean that he was bad because she was good.
So he had to have done it. And then if he tells himself that long enough,
then of course he did it.
Okay, and then finally, we have parasitism.
And so parasitism is another common relational dynamic in the narcissistic personality's
antagonistic style of attachment.
So a parasite feeds off of a host organism to the host detriment, causing depletion, disease,
and then even sometimes death.
And she talks about that between humans, parasitism shows up as exploitation in relationships,
usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person,
into providing ongoing resources.
So again, that concept of a parasite, I think of something that just attaches on
and it just sucks the life out of somebody or something.
But usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person
into providing ongoing resources such as money, housing, privilege, social standing, sex,
and caretaking or other forms of service.
So, to render the host easier to exploit, the narcissist typically uses tactics such
as isolation, guilt, seduction, fawning, gaslighting, while employing forms of intermittent reinforcement
to create this illusion of reciprocity in the relationship.
But the relationship not only drains the host of physical and emotional resources, but it,
also alienates that person from his or her own self-preserving instincts and the ability
to maintain safe personal boundaries.
She then kind of wraps things up talking more about this hidden abuse so that people who
are narcissistic seldom make this antagonism transparent because the reason that they'll
suffer negative consequences if they do.
And I feel like that goes back to the concept of when people say, do they know?
But if you are incredibly emotionally immature or narcissistic and did not ever see a healthy
version of a relationship growing up where people did not take ownership, did not support
each other, it wasn't something that you were doing together, but it was a black or
white or all or nothing or good or bad, then I don't, I think it's safe to say
that people don't know what they don't know. So yeah, they will suffer negative
consequences if they do. And this is where I go back to that concept of, of,
where abandonment. So if I let go of control, even if it's this antagonistic
control that I would then make the argument that they aren't necessarily aware of, because it just is, it's the way that they are being and doing,
because that's what they know,
that they don't have a real sense of self, that that sense of self is derived
from interacting off of other people.
So, even overt narcissists who are more brashly superior and domineering than other types
know that they won't get far in life if they fail to adhere to or give the appearance of
adhering to some rules and social norms, whether with acquaintances or friends, family members.
She goes on to say that so for narcissists, it becomes expedient to mask their harsh self-interest
and contempt for others and develop more socially acceptable strategies for getting what they
want from their relationships, which is where we talk about what mask, what mask do they
put on and they get good at putting on masks.
And then often you can even watch this moment where it's a quick version of the deer in the headlights
to figure out which version of the mask I can put on,
which is often what leads to what I again call those popcorn moments where if you don't interact
and you don't give them that narcissistic supply or they aren't able to in essence feed off of you,
then they're going to look for, well, wait a minute, you need to interact.
So let me try them all. Let me go around the horn.
I'm kidding, I love you. That's hilarious, that's scary.
I'm gonna leave you, I'm gonna tell everybody,
I'm a horrible person, and then I'm gonna repeat this until you finally interact.
And if you don't, then they don't know how to get that supply.
She says it's common then for narcissists to cultivate an agreeable, generous, charming, caring,
pious, or noble persona to attract a partner and to win favor in social or professional context.
And here's another thing I appreciated about this article. She talks about the disparity
between the narcissist's public and private face.
And it's a difference that is often especially dramatic.
In the covert form of narcissism, it's one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects
of the personality disorder, that this disparity makes the reality of the abuse
for those targeted within families more difficult to recognize and even harder to call out.
And I've been thinking about this a lot, and it's this concept around being consistent,
consistent in all of your relationships.
And that is, I don't want to be dramatic and say impossible if you don't have a sense of self.
But part of the maturation process of growing and maturing and becoming a human being is to really start to discover what you like, what brings you joy, what gives you a sense of purpose.
And then when you find those things, it's absolutely OK to not be perfect at communicating about these things or because you're still you're continuing to learn.
And let me just tell you a little bit of a story and it might seem a little bit out of place, but I think you'll get the gist of where I'm going.
I do a fair amount of work in helping people navigate faith journeys, formerly known more as faith crisis, where if I'm working with somebody that grew up in a particularly religious framework, that oftentimes as they start to go through life experiences, they have experiences where they start to question a lot of the things that they grew up believing or thinking.
And then there are those around them that are maybe of their faith that are not having those same experiences.
So they tell the people that are going through the faith journey.
Well, don't worry about it.
Maybe just pray and read your scriptures more.
But the person that's actually going through the faith journey has already tried that.
As a matter of fact, that's why they start to feel like something is wrong with them.
And as they're going through this process, they start to find themselves.
They start to discover their own beliefs.
Maybe it's their relationship with the divine, with God, and then as they start to try out those thoughts
or those beliefs on others, if those are contrary to the beliefs of others, especially those that are
in leadership or maybe people that are older than them,
then often those people wanna say, oh, that's actually not correct.
You know, here's what I believe, or here's what I think. So maybe you can rethink what you're thinking.
Being very specific, I work with a lot of people that struggle with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
I talk about on my virtual couch podcast often, my Path Back course.
My Path Back course is a faith-based addiction recovery course.
It's more or less around, I mean, even though the concepts will work with any unhealthy
coping mechanism, but it's more around people that turn to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
And I made a shift quite a while ago to not say pornography addiction because that actually
isn't something that's a diagnosable thing.
So there's impulse control disorder, there's compulsive behavior, compulsive sexual behavior.
But as I started working with people that were turning to pornography, or maybe it's
food or their phones or games or TV, whatever that is, to cope or to check out of life,
then you start recognizing, and I call them voids, that I started noticing that people
have these voids in their lives. So, if they felt a disconnect in their marriage, maybe,
in their parenting, in their faith, in their career, in their health, then they would turn
to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. So, my job was to go out and try to find a way
to help people have a better marriage, find a better job, get in better health, have a,
better relationship with God, with the divine, and maybe feel connected in their job.
And so then as I started to find these different models or evidence-based models to work with,
what I really started noticing was that people would start to have these different experiences,
but then they would get a lot of pushback because people are used to seeing you in the
role that they see you.
And if you grew up without this sense of self or more emotionally immature, then it can be scary to start to express a new opinion because those around you will say,
well, wait a minute, I don't understand why you're now all of a sudden thinking these things.
So if I go back into this world of helping people navigate a faith journey or a faith crisis, then I started noticing how much shame was involved in things like addictive tendencies, addictive behaviors are turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
And I'm on record for saying that I think I've helped now maybe, I don't know, 1,300, 1,400 people, individuals struggling with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
And that so far, shame has been a component in zero of those cases when it comes to recovery.
So, now let me go back into this world of faith or religion.
And in the faith community that I am a part of, there is a weekly sacrament service.
So, where you take bread and water and it symbolizes your relationship with Christ.
And that it had renews your, the covenants that you made at baptism. It can be a very special experience, a cleansing experience, a rebirth each week.
But when people have started turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms or they feel that they're not in alignment with God, they will often go to their religious leader
and that person may say, hey, I don't think you should take that sacrament for a couple of weeks, you know, no bread and water.
In water. And I started really feeling as I worked with hundreds and hundreds of
people that I felt like that wasn't doing a lot of good for the clients that
I am working with. So my particular opinion is that when people are struggling, then I said in a couple of interviews, I think they actually need a
bigger piece of bread and a larger cup of water because they need to not feel.
That shame. They need to feel love and support and to know that they're going
to be okay, even though they don't necessarily have the tools to be fully engaged in these areas of life.
So then they turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms.
And I have seen so many people just really start to thrive when they get the right tools.
So then I was having a conversation with a leader at one point, and then they said, Hey, I heard the interview you did.
And I heard you say that you think that people shouldn't not take this sacrament service and that they should get a bigger cup of water and a bigger piece of bread.
And I said, was that was that said metaphorically? And I said, Oh, no, I absolutely believe that. That's, that is my authentic self, my opinion. And I appreciate this person, but they said, Oh, that's, you know, that's kind of interesting. But I feel like if you if you kind of have that thought or that belief, it's a little contrary to the way that this particular faith works. And, you know, you might be jeopardizing yourself from other positions within the faith. And that's where I realized that, you know,
then that's okay, because I'm being authentic. Because in those moments, I could have shown up if I really was afraid of, of discomfort, or that I was going to make somebody else mad. Those are those moments where in the past, I might have said.
Yeah, you know, I see what you're saying. Yeah, you know, I'll kind of rethink that. But then that being authentic, that healthy ego of based off of real life experience, put me in a position where, oh, it's going to feel a little bit uncomfortable. But man, it feels also good to show up consistent and be the person I'm going to be.
Now, will other people have a disagreement and think that I'm going off the ranch or reservation? Sure, and I understand that.
And I can understand because this is my experience as me going through life for the first time in this position with the things that I do and the things I've learned.
So then I can show up consistent. And it can be uncomfortable. I could be in a position where there's a whole lot of people that disagree.
Disagree. And then those are those times I feel like when we're more emotionally immature or inconsistent, or we try to mold to whoever we're around, that those are those times where it can be a challenge to really being your authentic self.
And those are those moments of truth. And then when you get through them and you survive, then it starts to feel really empowering.
So, going back to when Julie's talking about this hidden abuse where she says, yeah, even overt narcissists who are more brashly superior in domineering than other types, knowing that they won't get very far in life, that they put out this charming or generous or caring or pious or noble persona, that then that disparity then between the public and private face is the difference that is so dramatic that in that covert form, again, it's one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects of the personality disorder,
That disparity makes the reality of abuse for those targeted within families more difficult to recognize and even harder to call out because to their public persona, it will mold and adapt into whatever it needs to be.
They'll say the right things in the environment where they need to get that validation or praise, but then they'll show up in a different environment and be a completely different person.
And then at home, you never know what you're going to get or what you're or who you're going to interact with.
She ends things by talking about complex trauma. But it's important to note that forms of antagonistic attachment, she said, as a bioecological
phenomenon, she said, except for the competition piece, normally happen between different species,
not members of the same species.
So within the human species, regardless of culture or national borders, such behavior is widely viewed as abhorrent.
And in psychology, it's categorized as pathological.
In ethics, it's immoral. In mythology and religious context, it's evil.
And she said there's a very good reason for this, that antagonistic attachment results in profound trauma.
Trauma that cascades through the targeted individual's lifespan from one family to the next, across generations,
and deep into our social fabric and institutions.
And I'm so grateful for the way that she phrased that because this is that part where the body keeps the score, that trauma that can just last, it can last a long time.
So the first thing to be able to heal that trauma, not just for you, but this intergenerational trauma, is to do the, it's the hard work to get out of this unhealthy relationship so that you can heal, so that you can start to do the work.
And thank your body for trying to warn you and forgive yourself, give yourself grace
for suppressing those emotions and trying to manage other people's anxiety,
other people's discomfort. Because if you can do that, you are gonna stop that generational trauma.
And I believe it literally goes into our DNA and then we can stop passing that trauma along
from generation to generation.
I feel like I need the wind machine, the music playing behind me and hallelujah and amen.
So, hey, thanks for spending the time with me today. If you have questions, comments, I would love to hear them.
You can reach me at contact at tonyoverbay.com.
And if you wanna hear more of the questions and answers, I'm doing those every week over on the.
Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer podcast.
And $4.99 a month in those proceeds are gonna go to help people that are in some really,
can be in some bad situations in their relationship.
So, thanks again, and we will see you next week on waking up the night.
Music.