WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.440 Music. 00:00:07.435 --> 00:00:11.525 Hey, welcome to episode 71 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.525 --> 00:00:15.645 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and also host of the Virtual Couch Podcast. 00:00:15.645 --> 00:00:17.365 And now, yes, it has finally been released. 00:00:17.745 --> 00:00:22.405 The trailer is out of Murder on the Couch, the true crime meets therapy podcast 00:00:22.405 --> 00:00:23.252 with my daughter, Sydney. 00:00:23.765 --> 00:00:30.445 Please go find that. I'll have a link in the show notes. And the actual episode one drops on Monday, 00:00:30.445 --> 00:00:34.525 but you can go follow or subscribe right now. The trailer is up there. 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:38.682 And even that, she's put so much production work into it. I'm very excited about that. 00:00:38.965 --> 00:00:41.365 Now, let me take you on my train of thought. One of my favorite things to do, 00:00:41.605 --> 00:00:47.965 when I ended last week's episode, episode 70, where we were talking about the five different types of narcissism, 00:00:47.965 --> 00:00:49.980 I had a lot of thoughts, a lot to say, 00:00:50.125 --> 00:00:56.777 and I went on for 40 minutes, 45 minutes, and I only got through two of the five types of narcissism. 00:00:56.905 --> 00:01:02.525 So I sat down to start up with the same article and go into number three, 00:01:02.525 --> 00:01:04.438 which is called antagonistic narcissism. 00:01:04.888 --> 00:01:10.703 But then I went down just an ADHD, narcissistic, emotionally immature rabbit hole 00:01:11.045 --> 00:01:16.285 and started reading some research that was tied to the concepts around antagonistic narcissism 00:01:16.285 --> 00:01:18.706 from this Psych Central article that I referenced last week. 00:01:19.165 --> 00:01:25.323 And that just had me fascinated with some of the deeper concepts around antagonism, 00:01:25.765 --> 00:01:28.348 and emotional immaturity and narcissism. 00:01:28.888 --> 00:01:35.565 And then I found a Psychology Today article that I am going to take a break on part two. 00:01:35.565 --> 00:01:37.805 We'll get to part two. 00:01:37.107 --> 00:01:42.937 Next week, but we're gonna do a an entire episode on understanding the narcissist, 00:01:43.397 --> 00:01:50.097 antagonistic attachment style because I love talking about attachment and this is from Julie Hall and she writes on 00:01:50.277 --> 00:01:57.357 Psychology Today column called the narcissist in your life, but she's better known for another website that I've referred to. 00:01:57.992 --> 00:02:04.132 She's the author of the narcissist in your life and founder of the narcissist family files and and she has amazing work there, 00:02:04.697 --> 00:02:11.417 So I'll have a link to the narcissist family files as well. So I'm gonna use her article from psychology today 00:02:11.737 --> 00:02:17.017 Understanding the narcissist antagonistic attachment style is sort of the backdrop or the muse for today's episode 00:02:17.137 --> 00:02:25.057 And before we get to that I have a poem by a guy and it's somebody that has sent me some really good feedback and I really appreciated that so here 00:02:25.057 --> 00:02:31.417 Is yet another shout out to anyone who is is a man who feels like they are in a relationship? 00:02:31.417 --> 00:02:36.414 Relationship with an emotionally immature or narcissistic or borderline personality disordered wife, 00:02:37.037 --> 00:02:41.617 or if you are a guy who feels like, you know what, I'm resonating with this maybe concept 00:02:41.617 --> 00:02:45.337 around emotional immaturity, maybe not the biggest fan of being called a narcissist, 00:02:45.578 --> 00:02:48.792 but I think that this is something I wanna do some work around, self-confront, 00:02:49.137 --> 00:02:54.457 then please do email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and my amazing assistant Naomi has been reaching out 00:02:54.457 --> 00:03:01.224 and contacting some of the people that have already send in inquiries so that we can put a group together soon. 00:03:01.577 --> 00:03:02.782 So I would love to hear from you. 00:03:03.417 --> 00:03:08.137 And then before I get to the poem though, I also love this and the person who sent me this, 00:03:08.137 --> 00:03:12.377 I didn't know if she wanted me to say her name or not, but I'm guessing maybe she's a teacher, 00:03:12.377 --> 00:03:14.809 but she just said one of her eighth grade students told her a joke. 00:03:15.017 --> 00:03:18.897 So she sent me a joke and it just shows, I don't think eighth grade, 00:03:18.897 --> 00:03:24.072 I had a clue about anything about, well, anything, narcissism, gaslighting, that sort of thing. 00:03:24.177 --> 00:03:26.217 But so here's the joke. She said, one of my eighth grade students 00:03:26.217 --> 00:03:32.876 me this one. Him. I've got a joke about gas lighting. Me. Oh, what is it? Him. I already told it to you. 00:03:34.397 --> 00:03:38.087 If I had a more produced podcast, I would throw a little laugh track in there. 00:03:38.494 --> 00:03:41.518 But that's kind of, I've got to hand it to an eighth grader for understanding that. 00:03:41.869 --> 00:03:45.847 Okay, so let me get to the poem. And this was submitted by someone, a guy that has given me 00:03:45.847 --> 00:03:50.807 some phenomenal feedback. And so I was really grateful for him to take the time to put together 00:03:50.807 --> 00:03:55.767 a poem. And he literally titled it, Poem from a Guy, with a lot of exclamation points. I'm a big 00:03:55.767 --> 00:04:00.567 fan of exclamation points. And he gave me permission to read this. 15 years. I can't 00:04:00.567 --> 00:04:02.809 I can't believe I lived like that for 15 years. 00:04:02.967 --> 00:04:06.545 It's hard to describe to somebody the depth and strength of constant fears. 00:04:07.107 --> 00:04:11.467 Would she try to take my son away or leave me for broke? Was I the crazy one? 00:04:11.467 --> 00:04:13.413 I wish all of it was a joke. 00:04:13.547 --> 00:04:16.447 Slowly but surely, I stopped being the person that I was meant to be. 00:04:17.207 --> 00:04:21.479 To avoid any conflict, I found myself in prison, but after so long, wanted to be free. 00:04:22.107 --> 00:04:26.863 If I love her the right way, if I say the right thing, or pray hard enough, things will surely change. 00:04:27.827 --> 00:04:32.039 The more I tried, the worse things got. I thought, man, this is really strange. 00:04:32.307 --> 00:04:35.847 I wanted so badly to be understood, to feel safe or feel like I was heard. 00:04:36.287 --> 00:04:41.473 Instead, I was told how I felt. I was torn down, lied to. Most times, I didn't say a word. 00:04:42.187 --> 00:04:45.632 I was constantly accused of cheating when that was never, ever true. 00:04:46.147 --> 00:04:49.782 Yet, when I caught her red-handed, she blamed me, what am I to do? 00:04:50.487 --> 00:04:54.599 I tried to end it, I tried to leave, but kept repeating the cycle again and again. 00:04:55.107 --> 00:04:58.627 While it was toxic and destructive, it was familiar, predictable, comfortable, 00:04:58.627 --> 00:05:00.189 despite all of its pain. 00:05:01.207 --> 00:05:05.041 There were times I wanted to take my own life. That's how desperate it seemed to be. 00:05:05.667 --> 00:05:08.921 When I discovered waking up to narcissism, my eyes began to see. 00:05:09.966 --> 00:05:13.431 I didn't know what I didn't know, and once I did, I couldn't go back. 00:05:13.954 --> 00:05:17.419 This knowledge, this wisdom became power and put me on a forward track. 00:05:18.095 --> 00:05:22.236 That doesn't mean I wasn't scared. In fact, it's been the most difficult thing I've ever done. 00:05:22.659 --> 00:05:25.882 To stand up for myself and my child, our new life has begun. 00:05:26.431 --> 00:05:29.843 I wish this was the end of the story, but our lives are still entangled. 00:05:30.419 --> 00:05:33.993 As I continue to heal stronger each day, my heart becomes less mangled. 00:05:34.533 --> 00:05:38.008 I hope one day I'll be fully free and even experience true love. 00:05:38.539 --> 00:05:46.936 My faith has brought me this far and hope is a gift from above." That was beautiful. So, I appreciate you sending that. You know who you are. 00:05:46.936 --> 00:05:48.657 So, thank you so much for sending that poem. 00:05:48.972 --> 00:05:54.851 Okay, let's get to today's topic. So, understanding the narcissist antagonistic attachment style. 00:05:54.977 --> 00:05:58.623 Julie Hall, here's what it means, what it looks like, and the damage that it does. 00:05:59.172 --> 00:06:05.576 So, she talks and gives this overview. The key point, securely attached people, which I've tried to talk about more and more 00:06:05.663 --> 00:06:16.256 over the last few episodes that the secure attachment, which I maintain that it is very rare to have had a secure attachment with your parent, just because we didn't talk about mental health. 00:06:16.411 --> 00:06:26.616 We really didn't. So if you are old enough to be listening to a podcast, most likely you are still coming from this age of we're finally talking about mental health and emotions. 00:06:26.755 --> 00:06:33.616 And we're we're saying that, OK, we need to do a better job of teaching emotional stability and emotional intelligence in particular. 00:06:34.038 --> 00:06:37.243 So, securely attached people, though, have mutually supportive relationships. 00:06:37.990 --> 00:06:52.840 And if you didn't see or have a secure attachment with parents, then you didn't know what you didn't know and you're jumping into relationships without understanding that a secure attachment means that you can be and think and feel the way that you want to feel and think and be. 00:06:52.840 --> 00:07:04.840 And you can still maintain a relationship with someone and they don't see that as a slight or as a criticism and you don't have to be put down because of your beliefs. You can actually both share your beliefs. 00:07:05.276 --> 00:07:11.840 She says narcissists have an antagonistic attachment style based on predation, competition, and parasitism. 00:07:12.369 --> 00:07:20.669 That's where it's going to get really interesting. So the narcissist antagonism in relationships traumatizes individuals and families and even larger social groups. 00:07:21.003 --> 00:07:25.684 And I think this does lead into that concept though when she says families around the narcissistic family system 00:07:25.963 --> 00:07:31.571 and how that antagonistic style of the narcissist does keep everyone in the family walking on eggshells. 00:07:32.246 --> 00:07:39.151 So, she says that humans are highly social, collaborative species with intricately complex interdependency. 00:07:39.241 --> 00:07:44.660 Julie's speaking my language. When I talk about this codependency and this enmeshment, I mean, we really are these collaborative people 00:07:44.660 --> 00:07:50.710 designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human, designed to solve projects in collaboration with another human. 00:07:51.385 --> 00:07:56.363 But then when one of those humans needs to make sure that they're better, and that means everyone else is worse, 00:07:56.688 --> 00:07:58.830 then this is where things become a problem. 00:07:59.037 --> 00:08:02.940 So, she said, we raise children together, we work together, we learn together, we eat 00:08:02.940 --> 00:08:07.220 together, we play together, the list goes on, and the glue that bonds us is this common 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.210 capacity and desire for attachment. 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:15.100 So this drive to connect and to share, protect, care, we are these pack animals. 00:08:15.100 --> 00:08:17.260 We belong to a tribe, a herd. 00:08:17.260 --> 00:08:20.980 The book, The Happiness Trap, lays it out so beautifully that one of the reasons it 00:08:20.980 --> 00:08:26.840 can be so difficult to be happy is because we are so afraid of saying or doing the wrong 00:08:26.840 --> 00:08:29.320 thing that will get us kicked out of the tribe. 00:08:29.753 --> 00:08:34.543 Because our caveman brain still worries that if I am booted out of the tribe and I'm on the outside circle 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:39.583 I'm the first one to go. I'm the first one to be eaten by the the tiger the woolly mammoth 00:08:39.583 --> 00:08:47.303 Whatever that looks like so we do though desire to connect share protect and care because that will bring us safety 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:49.023 But then how do we do that? 00:08:49.567 --> 00:08:55.703 And how do we do that and then still feel like we are growing and and learning and not just trying to manage the whole, 00:08:56.303 --> 00:08:58.723 Environment around us so that we don't get booted out. 00:08:59.568 --> 00:09:05.723 So antagonistic attachment. She says securely attached humans approach relationships cooperatively. 00:09:05.723 --> 00:09:10.723 They work together to achieve shared goals, seek and give empathetic validation. 00:09:10.723 --> 00:09:18.723 They share accurate and truthful information. They express affection and vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in their relationships. 00:09:18.842 --> 00:09:25.723 So even if there's a conflict, you can have a disagreement, but mutual support is the foundation of the relationship. 00:09:25.723 --> 00:09:34.723 And respect and love are not at stake, even if people have disagreements, or even if people have different opinions and different values, 00:09:34.723 --> 00:09:40.592 then that isn't a threat to the relationship because the mutual support is the foundation. 00:09:41.132 --> 00:09:47.379 And if that mutual support is the foundation, then love and respect, those aren't at stake just because somebody has a different opinion. 00:09:47.929 --> 00:09:52.723 She says, by contrast, for the narcissistic personality attachment with others is antagonistic. 00:09:52.723 --> 00:10:01.477 A concept in biology, and this is the stuff that I did not even recognize the significance of the term antagonistic narcissism or antagonistic attachment. 00:10:01.999 --> 00:10:06.383 But she said, antagonistic is a concept in biology that refers to a relationship in which, 00:10:07.003 --> 00:10:09.993 one organism benefits at the expense of another. 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:17.384 So common forms of antagonism in nature are predation, basically talking about predators, competition, and parasitism. 00:10:17.807 --> 00:10:22.392 So then I love that she lays these three dynamics out in narcissistic human relationships. 00:10:22.392 --> 00:10:28.952 So we can, again, anywhere we're talking about narcissism, you can insert emotionally immature or unhealthy relationships. 00:10:29.474 --> 00:10:37.108 Because we're talking a spectrum of behaviors. So predation. A predator typically kills and eats its prey to gain life-giving energy. 00:10:37.612 --> 00:10:44.328 In a predatory human relationship, there may be murder, but more often there's a condition of ongoing domination and subjugation. 00:10:44.742 --> 00:10:57.392 So because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for dominance, they emotionally and perhaps also physically and sexually oppress, intimidate, and violate others to experience and maintain feelings of power and control. 00:10:57.642 --> 00:11:03.012 And sometimes simply keeping somebody off balance or not understanding what happened or what to say 00:11:03.012 --> 00:11:04.691 or why did that work last time and it doesn't work 00:11:04.932 --> 00:11:09.813 another time keeps that person off balance so that the predator still has this advantage. 00:11:10.372 --> 00:11:14.332 She said, narcissistic displays of dominance may be flagrant forms of aggression 00:11:14.332 --> 00:11:18.132 such as literally hitting or pushing, berating, name calling, playing favorites, 00:11:18.132 --> 00:11:22.164 critiquing, monologuing, or we get into that world of passive aggression. 00:11:22.532 --> 00:11:26.932 So passive aggressive maneuvers like dismissal, the silent treatment, backhanded compliments, 00:11:26.932 --> 00:11:32.922 I'm just joking, I'm just kidding, those kind of barbs. Veiled threats, and then our beloved triangulation. 00:11:33.292 --> 00:11:36.172 Even your doctor, even my doctor says that you're crazy. 00:11:36.752 --> 00:11:40.812 Or I was talking with your sister. You know, all the people that I've been talking to 00:11:40.812 --> 00:11:43.383 all agree that you are crazy. 00:11:44.492 --> 00:11:48.332 So whatever the strategy, and however well it is rationalized or disguised, 00:11:48.332 --> 00:11:51.017 the purpose is to bully the other person into submission. 00:11:51.332 --> 00:11:58.731 So as a predator, they need that person to then fall into submission so that they have power. 00:11:59.172 --> 00:12:02.052 So it sounds very dramatic, but I would imagine people listening 00:12:02.052 --> 00:12:05.052 to this podcast right now can identify with times 00:12:05.052 --> 00:12:07.194 where they felt like this is just a power struggle, 00:12:07.692 --> 00:12:13.972 and that if I just give in and let go of the need to even have equality or reciprocity 00:12:13.972 --> 00:12:16.502 or to be heard or understood, then it will be better. 00:12:16.612 --> 00:12:21.381 And while it may get rid of your anxiety or get rid of the discomfort for a moment, 00:12:21.492 --> 00:12:23.983 It's only feeding that narcissistic supply. 00:12:24.856 --> 00:12:30.766 Number two, she talks about competition. So competition is another type of relational antagonism. It's a characteristic of narcissism, 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:37.342 So a narcissist approach relationships oppositionally viewing other people including and often their family members, especially their family members as, 00:12:38.026 --> 00:12:42.131 Competitors competitors for resources if this person has it then I don't have it 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:48.026 I am putting together and I would love to call for submission but in an episode all about food 00:12:48.415 --> 00:12:57.706 There is something that is just I don't know innately caveman-like or barbaric about emotional immaturity in food, as if all of a sudden this caveman 00:12:57.706 --> 00:13:02.466 kicks in and then it is their food. They do not have to ask. They are taking, you know, 00:13:02.466 --> 00:13:06.766 let me eat first. All of these things that just almost feel like predatory with a dose 00:13:06.766 --> 00:13:12.199 of competition. But then again, family members as competitors for resources. The resources 00:13:12.541 --> 00:13:18.303 could be tangible things, like food, but often they're intangible or are interpersonal resources 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.686 such as attention. So as if there is only a certain amount of attention to go around, 00:13:22.686 --> 00:13:27.726 so I must take all of the attention and that is the competition to get the attention or 00:13:27.726 --> 00:13:33.138 acknowledgement. There's our good friend validation. If I get all the validation, then I win and. 00:13:33.606 --> 00:13:37.606 There isn't room for people to validate because that's even where you see the most, I want 00:13:37.606 --> 00:13:41.979 to say adult of people, but that might be a little bit of a paradox that are saying, 00:13:42.069 --> 00:13:46.165 but don't you like the way I did it better? But mine was better, right? And it can be 00:13:46.246 --> 00:13:49.606 just that subtle and it may even feel like the person's joking, but that really 00:13:49.606 --> 00:13:53.294 is the person needing that acknowledgement and that attention. 00:13:53.646 --> 00:14:00.280 So also the intangible interpersonal resources could be inclusion or respect, admiration, or affection. 00:14:00.706 --> 00:14:05.726 And I love that Julie says seeing life as a zero sum game in which they can only 00:14:05.726 --> 00:14:08.247 win if someone else loses. That is such a key component. 00:14:08.666 --> 00:14:11.884 Narcissists continually work to undermine and one up those around them. 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:22.840 And sometimes the one-up is taking a victim status to take a little one-under and then just jump back around and now I have you in my control because you're giving me attention, even from a victim standpoint. 00:14:23.686 --> 00:14:28.176 So, narcissists continually work to undermine, again, that one-upping, while asserting their 00:14:28.176 --> 00:14:29.979 superiority and greater entitlement. 00:14:30.256 --> 00:14:34.390 So typical competitive narcissistic behaviors within families and then other social groups, 00:14:34.867 --> 00:14:38.976 will include everything from comparing, you know, my stuff's better than their stuff, 00:14:38.976 --> 00:14:43.776 or I bet that their stuff isn't even as nice as they think it is, or bragging, seems 00:14:43.776 --> 00:14:49.496 kind of that one's pretty obvious, but over-talking, where I need to get my point across first. 00:14:49.496 --> 00:14:51.584 I'm going to talk bigger. I'm going to one-up. 00:14:51.776 --> 00:14:59.496 That is one of the things that I think is so fascinating. A long time ago, so protecting the emotionally immature, I remember being in a situation 00:14:59.496 --> 00:15:03.376 where someone had pointed out to me, hey, just let me bring something up about one of 00:15:03.376 --> 00:15:05.682 your kids and watch what happens with this other individual. 00:15:06.296 --> 00:15:12.919 And I didn't understand where they were coming from. And I had a daughter at that time that had some success in long distance running. 00:15:13.136 --> 00:15:17.456 And so this person brought it up because he knew that this other individual did not have 00:15:17.691 --> 00:15:21.936 athletic kids, which is fine. But then that person didn't say anything other than, yeah, 00:15:21.936 --> 00:15:26.456 a friend of mine's daughter was way better than that. And I just thought, man, that is 00:15:26.456 --> 00:15:32.576 just in this person's nature or DNA that even if they can pull another person, someone else 00:15:32.576 --> 00:15:37.696 that they can say, oh, I know someone that's better than somehow they win. So the over 00:15:37.696 --> 00:15:42.776 talking the one upping the blaming, the cheating, you can watch adult human beings cheat like 00:15:42.776 --> 00:15:47.276 crazy, even in things as simple as board games, because it's competition, whatever it takes 00:15:47.276 --> 00:15:52.276 to win. Exaggerating. Narcissistic math. One of my favorite things. I remember 00:15:52.276 --> 00:15:59.316 working for a company and we were talking about the the person would look over and say well how big's your company and and I we would all look over because 00:15:59.316 --> 00:16:02.516 sometimes we were we were worth 50 million sometimes we were with a hundred 00:16:02.516 --> 00:16:07.156 million and in reality and maybe we were worth a million dollars. 00:16:05.790 --> 00:16:13.640 So that exaggeration, diminishing, excluding, applying double standards, distorting and withholding information, and then also taking undue credit. 00:16:14.306 --> 00:16:26.594 These are the things that I never would have even thought that I would see, but I get the examples in my office where a couple will talk about a situation where the husband, this is the quick example that comes to mind, 00:16:26.657 --> 00:16:31.680 is taking credit for something that he has confabulated or created a narrative around that the wife did. 00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:37.793 The wife has documentation, pictures of all of everything about this particular project they were talking about, 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:43.320 but the husband had taken credit for it so many times that then she, in essence, kind of looked at me 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:44.229 and said, okay, watch this. 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.720 Hey, what do you remember about this situation, this thing that is in our yard? 00:16:48.875 --> 00:16:53.691 And he said, man, one of the greatest decisions I ever made was to invest the money and the time to build that. 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:58.320 And she pulled me aside later and said, I don't even know if he was in town when I built it. 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:02.081 And so it can just be so fascinating to see the person take undue credit 00:17:02.160 --> 00:17:07.040 because in their immature mind, again, that concept of confabulation or changing the narrative, 00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:13.080 is he is so insecure that if his wife actually had made this thing that people really marveled at 00:17:13.080 --> 00:17:14.405 and thought was pretty amazing, 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:17.808 then that would mean that he was bad because she was good. 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.800 So he had to have done it. And then if he tells himself that long enough, 00:17:21.800 --> 00:17:23.668 then of course he did it. 00:17:24.100 --> 00:17:27.098 Okay, and then finally, we have parasitism. 00:17:27.580 --> 00:17:32.460 And so parasitism is another common relational dynamic in the narcissistic personality's 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.444 antagonistic style of attachment. 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:42.280 So a parasite feeds off of a host organism to the host detriment, causing depletion, disease, 00:17:42.280 --> 00:17:43.545 and then even sometimes death. 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:50.045 And she talks about that between humans, parasitism shows up as exploitation in relationships, 00:17:50.320 --> 00:17:54.951 usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person, 00:17:55.460 --> 00:17:57.382 into providing ongoing resources. 00:17:57.800 --> 00:18:01.160 So again, that concept of a parasite, I think of something that just attaches on 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.872 and it just sucks the life out of somebody or something. 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:08.680 But usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person 00:18:09.080 --> 00:18:14.585 into providing ongoing resources such as money, housing, privilege, social standing, sex, 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.556 and caretaking or other forms of service. 00:18:18.285 --> 00:18:22.415 So, to render the host easier to exploit, the narcissist typically uses tactics such 00:18:22.415 --> 00:18:29.070 as isolation, guilt, seduction, fawning, gaslighting, while employing forms of intermittent reinforcement 00:18:29.403 --> 00:18:32.257 to create this illusion of reciprocity in the relationship. 00:18:32.735 --> 00:18:36.335 But the relationship not only drains the host of physical and emotional resources, but it, 00:18:37.015 --> 00:18:41.835 also alienates that person from his or her own self-preserving instincts and the ability 00:18:41.835 --> 00:18:44.239 to maintain safe personal boundaries. 00:18:44.735 --> 00:18:49.695 She then kind of wraps things up talking more about this hidden abuse so that people who 00:18:49.695 --> 00:18:55.135 are narcissistic seldom make this antagonism transparent because the reason that they'll 00:18:55.401 --> 00:18:57.067 suffer negative consequences if they do. 00:18:57.475 --> 00:19:00.569 And I feel like that goes back to the concept of when people say, do they know? 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:06.655 But if you are incredibly emotionally immature or narcissistic and did not ever see a healthy 00:19:06.655 --> 00:19:11.895 version of a relationship growing up where people did not take ownership, did not support 00:19:11.895 --> 00:19:16.175 each other, it wasn't something that you were doing together, but it was a black or 00:19:16.175 --> 00:19:20.935 white or all or nothing or good or bad, then I don't, I think it's safe to say 00:19:20.935 --> 00:19:24.935 that people don't know what they don't know. So yeah, they will suffer negative 00:19:24.935 --> 00:19:27.864 consequences if they do. And this is where I go back to that concept of, of, 00:19:28.535 --> 00:19:33.895 where abandonment. So if I let go of control, even if it's this antagonistic 00:19:33.895 --> 00:19:41.250 control that I would then make the argument that they aren't necessarily aware of, because it just is, it's the way that they are being and doing, 00:19:41.628 --> 00:19:43.032 because that's what they know, 00:19:43.501 --> 00:19:47.775 that they don't have a real sense of self, that that sense of self is derived 00:19:47.775 --> 00:19:50.252 from interacting off of other people. 00:19:51.342 --> 00:19:56.352 So, even overt narcissists who are more brashly superior and domineering than other types 00:19:56.352 --> 00:19:59.912 know that they won't get far in life if they fail to adhere to or give the appearance of 00:19:59.912 --> 00:20:04.530 adhering to some rules and social norms, whether with acquaintances or friends, family members. 00:20:05.012 --> 00:20:08.952 She goes on to say that so for narcissists, it becomes expedient to mask their harsh self-interest 00:20:08.952 --> 00:20:12.592 and contempt for others and develop more socially acceptable strategies for getting what they 00:20:12.592 --> 00:20:16.458 want from their relationships, which is where we talk about what mask, what mask do they 00:20:16.672 --> 00:20:19.092 put on and they get good at putting on masks. 00:20:19.092 --> 00:20:24.792 And then often you can even watch this moment where it's a quick version of the deer in the headlights 00:20:24.792 --> 00:20:27.000 to figure out which version of the mask I can put on, 00:20:27.352 --> 00:20:32.329 which is often what leads to what I again call those popcorn moments where if you don't interact 00:20:32.472 --> 00:20:37.955 and you don't give them that narcissistic supply or they aren't able to in essence feed off of you, 00:20:38.072 --> 00:20:41.712 then they're going to look for, well, wait a minute, you need to interact. 00:20:41.712 --> 00:20:43.897 So let me try them all. Let me go around the horn. 00:20:44.192 --> 00:20:47.632 I'm kidding, I love you. That's hilarious, that's scary. 00:20:47.632 --> 00:20:49.424 I'm gonna leave you, I'm gonna tell everybody, 00:20:49.572 --> 00:20:53.853 I'm a horrible person, and then I'm gonna repeat this until you finally interact. 00:20:54.652 --> 00:20:58.572 And if you don't, then they don't know how to get that supply. 00:20:58.572 --> 00:21:03.292 She says it's common then for narcissists to cultivate an agreeable, generous, charming, caring, 00:21:03.292 --> 00:21:09.391 pious, or noble persona to attract a partner and to win favor in social or professional context. 00:21:09.492 --> 00:21:12.972 And here's another thing I appreciated about this article. She talks about the disparity 00:21:12.972 --> 00:21:15.027 between the narcissist's public and private face. 00:21:15.332 --> 00:21:17.610 And it's a difference that is often especially dramatic. 00:21:18.092 --> 00:21:22.412 In the covert form of narcissism, it's one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects 00:21:22.412 --> 00:21:26.032 of the personality disorder, that this disparity makes the reality of the abuse 00:21:26.032 --> 00:21:30.691 for those targeted within families more difficult to recognize and even harder to call out. 00:21:31.052 --> 00:21:35.030 And I've been thinking about this a lot, and it's this concept around being consistent, 00:21:35.412 --> 00:21:37.523 consistent in all of your relationships. 00:21:37.972 --> 00:21:42.574 And that is, I don't want to be dramatic and say impossible if you don't have a sense of self. 00:21:43.015 --> 00:21:54.185 But part of the maturation process of growing and maturing and becoming a human being is to really start to discover what you like, what brings you joy, what gives you a sense of purpose. 00:21:54.682 --> 00:22:04.105 And then when you find those things, it's absolutely OK to not be perfect at communicating about these things or because you're still you're continuing to learn. 00:22:04.345 --> 00:22:09.505 And let me just tell you a little bit of a story and it might seem a little bit out of place, but I think you'll get the gist of where I'm going. 00:22:09.553 --> 00:22:30.259 I do a fair amount of work in helping people navigate faith journeys, formerly known more as faith crisis, where if I'm working with somebody that grew up in a particularly religious framework, that oftentimes as they start to go through life experiences, they have experiences where they start to question a lot of the things that they grew up believing or thinking. 00:22:30.655 --> 00:22:36.665 And then there are those around them that are maybe of their faith that are not having those same experiences. 00:22:36.665 --> 00:22:39.621 So they tell the people that are going through the faith journey. 00:22:40.134 --> 00:22:40.701 Well, don't worry about it. 00:22:41.045 --> 00:22:42.970 Maybe just pray and read your scriptures more. 00:22:43.345 --> 00:22:47.129 But the person that's actually going through the faith journey has already tried that. 00:22:47.445 --> 00:22:50.982 As a matter of fact, that's why they start to feel like something is wrong with them. 00:22:51.441 --> 00:22:54.934 And as they're going through this process, they start to find themselves. 00:22:55.265 --> 00:22:58.065 They start to discover their own beliefs. 00:22:58.065 --> 00:23:03.605 Maybe it's their relationship with the divine, with God, and then as they start to try out those thoughts 00:23:03.605 --> 00:23:07.805 or those beliefs on others, if those are contrary to the beliefs of others, especially those that are 00:23:07.805 --> 00:23:10.202 in leadership or maybe people that are older than them, 00:23:10.365 --> 00:23:14.235 then often those people wanna say, oh, that's actually not correct. 00:23:14.365 --> 00:23:18.889 You know, here's what I believe, or here's what I think. So maybe you can rethink what you're thinking. 00:23:19.045 --> 00:23:23.845 Being very specific, I work with a lot of people that struggle with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:23:23.845 --> 00:23:27.365 I talk about on my virtual couch podcast often, my Path Back course. 00:23:27.365 --> 00:23:31.365 My Path Back course is a faith-based addiction recovery course. 00:23:32.032 --> 00:23:36.002 It's more or less around, I mean, even though the concepts will work with any unhealthy 00:23:36.002 --> 00:23:41.522 coping mechanism, but it's more around people that turn to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. 00:23:41.522 --> 00:23:44.982 And I made a shift quite a while ago to not say pornography addiction because that actually 00:23:44.982 --> 00:23:47.273 isn't something that's a diagnosable thing. 00:23:47.522 --> 00:23:52.710 So there's impulse control disorder, there's compulsive behavior, compulsive sexual behavior. 00:23:53.042 --> 00:23:56.762 But as I started working with people that were turning to pornography, or maybe it's 00:23:56.896 --> 00:24:03.738 food or their phones or games or TV, whatever that is, to cope or to check out of life, 00:24:03.962 --> 00:24:07.842 then you start recognizing, and I call them voids, that I started noticing that people 00:24:07.842 --> 00:24:12.758 have these voids in their lives. So, if they felt a disconnect in their marriage, maybe, 00:24:13.242 --> 00:24:17.922 in their parenting, in their faith, in their career, in their health, then they would turn 00:24:17.922 --> 00:24:21.682 to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. So, my job was to go out and try to find a way 00:24:21.682 --> 00:24:25.686 to help people have a better marriage, find a better job, get in better health, have a, 00:24:26.202 --> 00:24:31.842 better relationship with God, with the divine, and maybe feel connected in their job. 00:24:31.842 --> 00:24:36.209 And so then as I started to find these different models or evidence-based models to work with, 00:24:36.522 --> 00:24:41.251 what I really started noticing was that people would start to have these different experiences, 00:24:41.442 --> 00:24:46.042 but then they would get a lot of pushback because people are used to seeing you in the 00:24:46.042 --> 00:24:49.162 role that they see you. 00:24:47.633 --> 00:24:55.563 And if you grew up without this sense of self or more emotionally immature, then it can be scary to start to express a new opinion because those around you will say, 00:24:55.563 --> 00:24:59.723 well, wait a minute, I don't understand why you're now all of a sudden thinking these things. 00:25:00.443 --> 00:25:12.843 So if I go back into this world of helping people navigate a faith journey or a faith crisis, then I started noticing how much shame was involved in things like addictive tendencies, addictive behaviors are turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:25:12.921 --> 00:25:21.149 And I'm on record for saying that I think I've helped now maybe, I don't know, 1,300, 1,400 people, individuals struggling with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:25:21.203 --> 00:25:26.325 And that so far, shame has been a component in zero of those cases when it comes to recovery. 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:30.363 So, now let me go back into this world of faith or religion. 00:25:30.363 --> 00:25:35.563 And in the faith community that I am a part of, there is a weekly sacrament service. 00:25:35.563 --> 00:25:40.279 So, where you take bread and water and it symbolizes your relationship with Christ. 00:25:40.521 --> 00:25:48.283 And that it had renews your, the covenants that you made at baptism. It can be a very special experience, a cleansing experience, a rebirth each week. 00:25:48.283 --> 00:25:56.283 But when people have started turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms or they feel that they're not in alignment with God, they will often go to their religious leader 00:25:56.283 --> 00:26:02.283 and that person may say, hey, I don't think you should take that sacrament for a couple of weeks, you know, no bread and water. 00:26:02.283 --> 00:26:07.753 In water. And I started really feeling as I worked with hundreds and hundreds of 00:26:07.798 --> 00:26:13.043 people that I felt like that wasn't doing a lot of good for the clients that 00:26:13.043 --> 00:26:20.443 I am working with. So my particular opinion is that when people are struggling, then I said in a couple of interviews, I think they actually need a 00:26:20.443 --> 00:26:24.336 bigger piece of bread and a larger cup of water because they need to not feel. 00:26:24.643 --> 00:26:28.123 That shame. They need to feel love and support and to know that they're going 00:26:28.123 --> 00:26:35.323 to be okay, even though they don't necessarily have the tools to be fully engaged in these areas of life. 00:26:35.323 --> 00:26:37.623 So then they turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:26:37.843 --> 00:26:43.803 And I have seen so many people just really start to thrive when they get the right tools. 00:26:44.897 --> 00:26:51.123 So then I was having a conversation with a leader at one point, and then they said, Hey, I heard the interview you did. 00:26:51.123 --> 00:26:58.103 And I heard you say that you think that people shouldn't not take this sacrament service and that they should get a bigger cup of water and a bigger piece of bread. 00:26:58.103 --> 00:27:28.103 And I said, was that was that said metaphorically? And I said, Oh, no, I absolutely believe that. That's, that is my authentic self, my opinion. And I appreciate this person, but they said, Oh, that's, you know, that's kind of interesting. But I feel like if you if you kind of have that thought or that belief, it's a little contrary to the way that this particular faith works. And, you know, you might be jeopardizing yourself from other positions within the faith. And that's where I realized that, you know, 00:27:26.595 --> 00:27:40.365 then that's okay, because I'm being authentic. Because in those moments, I could have shown up if I really was afraid of, of discomfort, or that I was going to make somebody else mad. Those are those moments where in the past, I might have said. 00:27:40.936 --> 00:27:59.291 Yeah, you know, I see what you're saying. Yeah, you know, I'll kind of rethink that. But then that being authentic, that healthy ego of based off of real life experience, put me in a position where, oh, it's going to feel a little bit uncomfortable. But man, it feels also good to show up consistent and be the person I'm going to be. 00:27:59.688 --> 00:28:06.365 Now, will other people have a disagreement and think that I'm going off the ranch or reservation? Sure, and I understand that. 00:28:06.556 --> 00:28:14.365 And I can understand because this is my experience as me going through life for the first time in this position with the things that I do and the things I've learned. 00:28:14.730 --> 00:28:21.365 So then I can show up consistent. And it can be uncomfortable. I could be in a position where there's a whole lot of people that disagree. 00:28:21.365 --> 00:28:35.886 Disagree. And then those are those times I feel like when we're more emotionally immature or inconsistent, or we try to mold to whoever we're around, that those are those times where it can be a challenge to really being your authentic self. 00:28:36.012 --> 00:28:42.493 And those are those moments of truth. And then when you get through them and you survive, then it starts to feel really empowering. 00:28:42.908 --> 00:29:10.565 So, going back to when Julie's talking about this hidden abuse where she says, yeah, even overt narcissists who are more brashly superior in domineering than other types, knowing that they won't get very far in life, that they put out this charming or generous or caring or pious or noble persona, that then that disparity then between the public and private face is the difference that is so dramatic that in that covert form, again, it's one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects of the personality disorder, 00:29:10.661 --> 00:29:22.485 That disparity makes the reality of abuse for those targeted within families more difficult to recognize and even harder to call out because to their public persona, it will mold and adapt into whatever it needs to be. 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:32.085 They'll say the right things in the environment where they need to get that validation or praise, but then they'll show up in a different environment and be a completely different person. 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:36.678 And then at home, you never know what you're going to get or what you're or who you're going to interact with. 00:29:37.092 --> 00:29:44.005 She ends things by talking about complex trauma. But it's important to note that forms of antagonistic attachment, she said, as a bioecological 00:29:44.005 --> 00:29:48.723 phenomenon, she said, except for the competition piece, normally happen between different species, 00:29:48.925 --> 00:29:50.703 not members of the same species. 00:29:51.442 --> 00:29:57.581 So within the human species, regardless of culture or national borders, such behavior is widely viewed as abhorrent. 00:29:58.121 --> 00:30:00.993 And in psychology, it's categorized as pathological. 00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:05.557 In ethics, it's immoral. In mythology and religious context, it's evil. 00:30:06.151 --> 00:30:11.004 And she said there's a very good reason for this, that antagonistic attachment results in profound trauma. 00:30:11.526 --> 00:30:16.891 Trauma that cascades through the targeted individual's lifespan from one family to the next, across generations, 00:30:17.251 --> 00:30:19.790 and deep into our social fabric and institutions. 00:30:20.474 --> 00:30:30.350 And I'm so grateful for the way that she phrased that because this is that part where the body keeps the score, that trauma that can just last, it can last a long time. 00:30:30.421 --> 00:30:44.372 So the first thing to be able to heal that trauma, not just for you, but this intergenerational trauma, is to do the, it's the hard work to get out of this unhealthy relationship so that you can heal, so that you can start to do the work. 00:30:44.372 --> 00:30:49.652 And thank your body for trying to warn you and forgive yourself, give yourself grace 00:30:49.652 --> 00:30:53.773 for suppressing those emotions and trying to manage other people's anxiety, 00:30:53.892 --> 00:30:59.301 other people's discomfort. Because if you can do that, you are gonna stop that generational trauma. 00:30:59.372 --> 00:31:04.772 And I believe it literally goes into our DNA and then we can stop passing that trauma along 00:31:04.772 --> 00:31:05.990 from generation to generation. 00:31:06.223 --> 00:31:11.652 I feel like I need the wind machine, the music playing behind me and hallelujah and amen. 00:31:12.132 --> 00:31:16.531 So, hey, thanks for spending the time with me today. If you have questions, comments, I would love to hear them. 00:31:16.652 --> 00:31:18.692 You can reach me at contact at tonyoverbay.com. 00:31:19.092 --> 00:31:23.940 And if you wanna hear more of the questions and answers, I'm doing those every week over on the. 00:31:24.651 --> 00:31:26.983 Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer podcast. 00:31:27.415 --> 00:31:33.302 And $4.99 a month in those proceeds are gonna go to help people that are in some really, 00:31:33.645 --> 00:31:35.544 can be in some bad situations in their relationship. 00:31:36.012 --> 00:31:38.632 So, thanks again, and we will see you next week on waking up the night. 00:31:38.640 --> 00:32:19.382 Music.