WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.440 Music. 00:00:07.435 --> 00:00:12.085 Hey, welcome to episode 69 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:12.085 --> 00:00:16.265 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast 00:00:16.265 --> 00:00:22.784 and the Waking Up to Narcissism Premium Question and Answer Podcast and soon to come Murder on the Couch, 00:00:23.045 --> 00:00:24.144 Therapy Meets True Crime. 00:00:24.685 --> 00:00:31.025 And if you wanna find out more about any of the podcasts or the Magnetic Marriage Workshop, which is a $19, 00:00:31.025 --> 00:00:34.298 you didn't know what you didn't know about marriage and relationships workshop, 00:00:34.525 --> 00:00:36.234 it's an hour and a half long. 00:00:36.765 --> 00:00:44.039 If you go to the show notes, there's a Linktree link. It's link.tree slash virtual couch. 00:00:44.165 --> 00:00:49.215 And there you can sign up for the newsletter and you can find the links to the courses and programs 00:00:49.405 --> 00:00:51.357 and all the things that are coming up. That would be wonderful. 00:00:51.885 --> 00:00:57.465 And if you would be so inclined, if you are one who would write a review or subscribe 00:00:57.465 --> 00:01:01.638 or rate wherever you listen to podcasts, that is always something that would be appreciated. 00:01:01.965 --> 00:01:04.564 And I'm trying to do more with clips on the YouTube channel. 00:01:04.885 --> 00:01:09.074 So if you find the Virtual Couch YouTube channel, subscribing to that would be wonderful as well. 00:01:09.505 --> 00:01:13.971 And I think I mentioned in the past that I'm putting up more reels on Instagram 00:01:14.105 --> 00:01:15.265 and those are making it up. 00:01:15.265 --> 00:01:22.505 So if you find it's TonyOverbay underscore LMFT and a lot of content going up on a pretty much a daily basis 00:01:22.505 --> 00:01:25.602 over on TikTok. The world of TikTok therapy is pretty fascinating. 00:01:26.225 --> 00:01:29.086 So let's get to today's topic. We're gonna talk about anxiety, 00:01:29.585 --> 00:01:33.200 but one of the things I wanna do first is I just have so many poems now, 00:01:33.665 --> 00:01:38.772 from the Women's Facebook group, and I would love if any of the men listening 00:01:38.905 --> 00:01:43.565 that are poets as well, that would like to express maybe the frustration that they're having, 00:01:43.565 --> 00:01:47.721 whether it's in their own relationships to emotionally immature or narcissistic women, 00:01:48.225 --> 00:01:52.042 or if they are poetic and waking up to their own emotional immaturity, 00:01:52.225 --> 00:01:55.805 please email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and continue. 00:01:56.225 --> 00:02:00.105 I've got a few more emails this week from therapists, which is wonderful, 00:02:00.105 --> 00:02:01.265 because I want to do more with that. 00:02:01.265 --> 00:02:06.925 Therapists who are referring people to the podcast, or therapists who are also working in the world 00:02:06.925 --> 00:02:12.306 of emotional immaturity or narcissism, and men, men who are ready to group, 00:02:12.565 --> 00:02:13.505 then that would be wonderful. 00:02:13.505 --> 00:02:18.465 Please continue to reach out at contact at TonyOrbea.com. 00:02:17.563 --> 00:02:22.133 So let me start, well actually before I start with a poem, I just want to take you on a little train of thought. 00:02:22.133 --> 00:02:27.133 I think this will have to do with the topic today. Today we're going to talk about anxiety, we're going to talk about uncertainty, 00:02:27.133 --> 00:02:32.613 we're going to talk about the unknown, and that plays I think a much larger role in the world of emotional immaturity 00:02:32.613 --> 00:02:34.938 and people that are in relationships with emotionally immature people, 00:02:35.379 --> 00:02:39.844 because they are continually trying to manage other people's emotions or manage their own anxiety, 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:44.093 which doesn't allow a lot of space or opportunity for people to just be. 00:02:44.354 --> 00:02:54.788 For people to just be and explore and do and figure out what matters to them when they don't even realize how much emotional bandwidth is being spent on trying to manage, manage their emotions, manage other people. 00:02:55.445 --> 00:03:07.067 But then when you do have people that start to recognize that they are enough, they start to recognize their own worth, they start to recognize that it's okay to tap into what they want to do and how they want to feel, 00:03:07.679 --> 00:03:10.593 then I find that people will just start to say, 00:03:10.593 --> 00:03:12.053 okay, I don't even know what to do next. 00:03:12.053 --> 00:03:16.833 And I remember a time long ago, I was working with a guy and he loved movies. 00:03:16.833 --> 00:03:19.895 He loved movies, he loved TV shows, and we would talk about movies and TV shows often 00:03:20.273 --> 00:03:22.113 because that was, you could tell it was his happy place. 00:03:22.113 --> 00:03:26.233 And for me growing up, movies were just, they were an escape, they were a retreat. 00:03:26.233 --> 00:03:27.673 I just, I loved everything about them. 00:03:28.033 --> 00:03:33.993 And so he would just give me these in-depth movie reviews as if he were a real syscal and Ebert. 00:03:33.993 --> 00:03:36.813 And if you know who they are, then you're probably of my age. 00:03:36.813 --> 00:03:40.015 If not, I don't know who the normal, or who the current movie reviewers are. 00:03:40.744 --> 00:04:09.594 But he would just go in depth about movie reviews. And so when he started to really feel like, okay, I want to figure out who I am, but I don't even know what to do first. You kind of go for a little bit of what seems like the low hanging fruit. And I said, what would that look like if you wrote movie reviews? And at the time, everybody had a blog. I think the sites were called Blogger. I think maybe Google bought that out. But you had a blog and then he said, well, I don't know. And nobody would listen. Nobody would read it. And I don't know if it would go anywhere. And that's part of the yeah, buts. Yeah, but maybe I would want to. But yeah, but nobody's going to read it. 00:04:10.594 --> 00:04:14.334 To care and I don't know how to promote it. And that's not even the point. So if the point 00:04:14.334 --> 00:04:19.674 is that you start doing instead of ruminating or worrying, then we suggested that this guy 00:04:19.674 --> 00:04:23.634 just start writing reviews. And so then we just had a, we were kind of having fun just 00:04:23.634 --> 00:04:26.719 Googling different review sites. And then he was saying, okay, I wonder, I wonder if, 00:04:27.354 --> 00:04:32.874 I could pack in the review to just a few lines because he was a man of few words, a lot of 00:04:32.874 --> 00:04:38.414 depth, but few words. And so just joking, I said, what if you did a haiku and you did 00:04:38.414 --> 00:04:42.974 haiku movie reviews and then he said he joked and he said oh I'm they're probably 00:04:42.974 --> 00:04:47.289 already being done and then I really did think to myself man this day and age and 00:04:47.415 --> 00:04:51.214 this was years and years ago I thought he's probably right so we googled and 00:04:51.214 --> 00:04:56.694 sure enough we found a review site that the reviews were all haikus so I'm gonna 00:04:56.694 --> 00:05:00.999 read a haiku from the narcissistic women's Facebook group which is so just, 00:05:01.692 --> 00:05:05.974 simple to the point but yet beautiful and profound but before I do that let me 00:05:05.974 --> 00:05:11.370 read you a couple of haiku movie reviews. So the first one is about Pixar's Up. 00:05:12.225 --> 00:05:18.774 Love, loss, and regret all in the first 10 minutes. Better pack Kleenex. That's it. 00:05:19.346 --> 00:05:26.734 But boy, it kind of encapsulates everything. There's another one haiku from Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King. Not only that, but the extended 00:05:26.734 --> 00:05:31.607 edition. Couldn't them eagles simply fly the ring bearer all the way to doom? That, 00:05:32.294 --> 00:05:38.143 is deep and it is true. I've wondered the same thing. So here is the haiku from the 00:05:38.294 --> 00:05:41.974 Facebook group and actually what I should do is it's gonna sound like I'm 00:05:41.974 --> 00:05:51.094 doing this in real time or I already know this but I am going to pause and remind people and myself what a haiku consists of. So I googled what is a haiku 00:05:51.094 --> 00:05:55.734 and it is a Japanese poem of 17 syllables in three lines of five, seven, 00:05:55.734 --> 00:06:00.814 and five, traditionally evoking images of the natural world. And now let me tell 00:06:00.814 --> 00:06:04.951 what ADHD looks like, there was a haiku generator and I'm doing everything within my power to 00:06:05.254 --> 00:06:08.614 not just go play with that because I only have a few minutes before my first client 00:06:08.614 --> 00:06:12.794 arrives and I would like to lay down some of this content so I can come back and finish 00:06:12.794 --> 00:06:14.413 it in the not too distant future. 00:06:15.074 --> 00:06:21.674 So back to the haiku. The haiku from the Women's Narcissistic Facebook group just simply says, I was so alone, waiting 00:06:21.674 --> 00:06:24.154 for him to love me, now I love myself. 00:06:25.297 --> 00:06:32.147 So, I believe that just is so powerful and so simplistic and it fits the five, seven 00:06:32.147 --> 00:06:34.173 and five lines of syllables. 00:06:34.867 --> 00:06:39.027 If that really resonated with you and you feel like, man, I don't know how to do a lengthy 00:06:39.027 --> 00:06:43.387 poem and share the depths of my soul, it's really interesting because I feel like just 00:06:43.387 --> 00:06:48.027 even taking a look at something like haikus could be something that could raise your emotional 00:06:48.027 --> 00:06:50.627 baseline and just even starting to do. 00:06:50.627 --> 00:06:54.867 Do what? Start to read haikus, learn what they are, start to try to write haikus. 00:06:54.867 --> 00:06:56.660 It's all better than ruminating and worrying. 00:06:57.426 --> 00:07:01.369 Let me get to the full poem that I want to read. This is also from the group. 00:07:02.187 --> 00:07:06.842 When darkness comes, it comes quietly. It tipped toes inside, slipping through the doorway. 00:07:07.667 --> 00:07:11.721 Tip tap, tip tap, the faint sound of bare feet on the wood floor. 00:07:12.207 --> 00:07:17.618 It creeps its way in, finding a way into every crack and crevice, slowly, deliberately, methodically. 00:07:18.227 --> 00:07:21.903 It wraps its long, twisted, gnarled fingers around my neck, and I cannot breathe. 00:07:22.507 --> 00:07:27.087 Claws and tears at my heart leaving me in agony like a parasite that infects my 00:07:27.087 --> 00:07:31.407 mind it controls me I cannot think bewildered and confused I stagger up the 00:07:31.407 --> 00:07:35.527 stairs the hallway mirror startles me and I see gaping holes in my reflection 00:07:35.527 --> 00:07:39.807 where have I gone what has become of me barely anything recognizable or a value 00:07:40.168 --> 00:07:44.287 a stained and tattered t-shirt tossed into the corner of the dirty bathroom 00:07:44.287 --> 00:07:49.287 floor I feel like the poetry just so resonates and I think in the last three 00:07:49.287 --> 00:07:54.914 or four weeks of the Waking Up the Narcissist podcast, that poetry really has just expressed, 00:07:55.687 --> 00:08:01.807 how people feel this loss of self and then recognizing that they no longer, they don't 00:08:01.807 --> 00:08:06.554 know what it feels like truly to be the person that they were or want to be. 00:08:07.347 --> 00:08:12.607 And so I feel like this act of poetry truly is just expressing the fact that these people 00:08:12.607 --> 00:08:18.447 that are in these relationships start to just slowly but surely recognize this dying on 00:08:18.447 --> 00:08:23.447 on the inside and then this desire or this now opportunity 00:08:23.647 --> 00:08:25.306 for new growth or rebirth. 00:08:26.327 --> 00:08:30.077 So today I wanna talk about anxiety and I wanna talk about uncertainty 00:08:30.247 --> 00:08:31.967 and I think that you'll see how these really play 00:08:31.967 --> 00:08:37.447 into where many people are, especially when they find a podcast like Waking Up to Narcissism 00:08:37.447 --> 00:08:40.376 or somebody that likes to talk about interacting with emotionally immature people, 00:08:40.607 --> 00:08:43.436 whether it's a me or a Dr. Romney or a Ross Rosenberg, 00:08:43.807 --> 00:08:45.399 whoever it is, Christine Hammond, 00:08:46.263 --> 00:08:53.367 But at that point, there's a lot of anxiety that has led the person to finally look for more or look for answers. 00:08:53.367 --> 00:08:58.487 And then the answers come, and here begins that narcissistic awareness grief 00:08:58.487 --> 00:09:01.009 where the answers can often feel overwhelming, 00:09:01.607 --> 00:09:06.847 and cause even more anxiety because the certainty that people were trying to cling onto 00:09:06.847 --> 00:09:11.767 or hope for in their marriage or in their lives of that it will get better and it will eventually look like this 00:09:11.767 --> 00:09:13.198 and he or she eventually will get it. 00:09:14.674 --> 00:09:17.654 That's seeking certainty, and the brain desperately wants certainty. 00:09:18.752 --> 00:09:21.777 Then when things aren't playing out the way that we hope that they will, 00:09:22.308 --> 00:09:27.205 then that uncertainty absolutely will cause just more and more anxiety. 00:09:27.836 --> 00:09:35.956 And it's so hard at first to try to just say to somebody, hey, let's just accept the fact that things might not be certain. 00:09:36.244 --> 00:09:40.762 Because then if we're understanding that they aren't what we thought that they were, 00:09:40.943 --> 00:09:43.094 now we can just truly be in each moment. 00:09:43.562 --> 00:09:51.002 And instead of trying to manage anxiety around trying to alleviate anything that will cause additional anxiety or that will cause additional pain, 00:09:51.827 --> 00:09:55.722 then we just accept the fact that there will be moments of anxiety and there will be moments of 00:09:55.722 --> 00:10:00.658 pain. But then what also comes along with that is the opportunity to have moments of joy, moments 00:10:01.082 --> 00:10:06.362 of calm, moments of peace. And I did an episode a few weeks ago, I think on the virtual couch, 00:10:06.362 --> 00:10:11.242 just talking about acceptance. And this isn't that acceptance of something like anxiety or 00:10:11.242 --> 00:10:13.027 or acceptance of something like uncertainty, 00:10:13.482 --> 00:10:21.147 doesn't just mean that I just give in, that I just acquiesce and that I am just saying, okay, I give up. 00:10:22.281 --> 00:10:27.854 But acceptance means to take in in its entirety without defense. 00:10:28.082 --> 00:10:30.815 So am I accepting. In the world of acceptance and commitment therapy, 00:10:31.342 --> 00:10:34.767 there's this principle or this concept that if I am unwilling to have it, I will. 00:10:35.302 --> 00:10:40.790 Meaning that if I'm unwilling to be anxious, then I will be spending so much emotional calories 00:10:41.122 --> 00:10:46.119 and bandwidth trying to make sure I am not anxious that that alone will cause more anxiety. 00:10:46.942 --> 00:10:54.622 So if I am unwilling to have uncertainty, then I will have even more because the desire to make sure of things 00:10:54.905 --> 00:11:02.382 or try to make sense of things or find certainty in every bit of my life is going to cause more anxiety 00:11:02.382 --> 00:11:03.124 and more uncertainty. 00:11:03.982 --> 00:11:07.502 So I'm gonna use, here's where I feel like about as creative as I get, 00:11:07.502 --> 00:11:09.156 and he uses my Muse today. 00:11:10.137 --> 00:11:19.293 An article from Healthline.com. This is by Daniel. It's medically reviewed by Daniel Wade, who's a licensed clinical social worker, and written by Crystal Raepol. 00:11:19.644 --> 00:11:24.622 And it is called 12 Signs That You've Experienced Narcissistic Abuse, Plus How To Get Help. 00:11:25.522 --> 00:11:31.851 The article begins with a definition of narcissistic personality disorder, talking about it being a complex mental health condition, 00:11:32.436 --> 00:11:37.648 that typically involves a grandiose or inflated sense of self, extreme need for admiration and attention, among other symptoms. 00:11:38.224 --> 00:11:48.793 And so this is where I want to jump off the map a tiny bit and talk about, again, I think that narcissistic personality disorder is being talked about a lot, but it's a pretty small percentage of the population. 00:11:49.162 --> 00:12:00.757 But if we talk about emotional immaturity and start with a place that we are pretty much all emotionally immature in so many different areas, but then those who are seeking help are looking to become more emotionally mature. 00:12:01.288 --> 00:12:05.726 And that requires a lot of introspection, a lot of self-confrontation. 00:12:06.113 --> 00:12:09.543 And so if you are asking yourself, again, if I am the narcissist, 00:12:10.173 --> 00:12:18.221 if you are literally asking yourself that, you're probably asking because you've been listening and researching and wondering and doing and trying to read and discover and find out, 00:12:18.636 --> 00:12:22.714 and those are not traits or characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder. 00:12:23.272 --> 00:12:27.809 So there may be some emotional maturity, immaturity on the way to maturity, 00:12:28.286 --> 00:12:31.698 but definitely not narcissistic personality disorder at that point. 00:12:32.427 --> 00:12:36.838 She says that common types of narcissistic manipulation include triangulation, 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.114 which is somebody who is trying to pull someone else, a third person, into your conflict, 00:12:41.645 --> 00:12:44.409 and that is trying to reinforce their own opinion or their position. 00:12:45.003 --> 00:12:48.289 And this can happen in so many different ways. Once you're aware of triangulation, 00:12:48.658 --> 00:12:52.997 one of the examples that I will often give is somebody coming into my office and saying that 00:12:53.150 --> 00:12:55.860 they were talking with their friends, they were talking with the co-worker, they were talking, 00:12:56.437 --> 00:13:02.026 with their doctor, and their doctor even agrees that their wife should change her behavior or 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:07.806 You know, I was talking to my doctor about my wife and even the doctor thinks that my wife should get on antidepressants. 00:13:08.247 --> 00:13:11.164 And I remember that one in particular that was a very real scenario. 00:13:11.533 --> 00:13:16.763 And at the time I didn't stop and say this and I in hindsight I wish I would have. 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:24.478 But if you just break that one down so okay so you, the person in this situation, the more emotionally immature narcissist was the male. 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:31.317 So he then goes to his doctor who in this day and age it takes a little while to get an appointment for a doctor. 00:13:31.317 --> 00:13:33.336 You're probably gonna have five or 10 minutes to lay out. 00:13:33.797 --> 00:13:39.437 And then in those five or 10 minutes with your doctor, you laid out a scenario so perfectly 00:13:39.437 --> 00:13:45.156 that then your doctor who does not know your wife was able to diagnose your wife with depression 00:13:45.597 --> 00:13:49.730 or a major depressive disorder, including which medications that your wife should take. 00:13:50.437 --> 00:13:56.237 So triangulation, it just makes no sense whatsoever. And that was one of those things as a therapist 00:13:56.237 --> 00:13:58.678 that the more that I was working with clients over the years 00:13:59.037 --> 00:14:03.857 and couples where that was one of the situations where that was just not the way that we normally work 00:14:03.857 --> 00:14:08.117 to couples therapy, where someone's coming in and saying, yeah, I was talking to your sister, 00:14:08.117 --> 00:14:09.030 I was talking to your brother, 00:14:09.437 --> 00:14:13.279 I was talking to my friends at work, and it was all about, I was talking about them about you, 00:14:13.684 --> 00:14:18.699 and I mean, they agree that you should get help, you should change, and that's just not the way 00:14:18.977 --> 00:14:21.219 an emotionally mature person interacts. 00:14:22.192 --> 00:14:33.598 Next she talks about the narcissistic manipulative tactic of gaslighting. Someone trying to gaslight you tries to get you to doubt your own perspective and reality, often by twisting facts or insisting things you don't remember that didn't actually happen. 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:43.284 Hoovering. We don't talk about this one very often on the podcast and I would like to give this one a little more attention, but this tactic involves attempts to reconnect or pull you back into a toxic or abusive relationship. 00:14:44.042 --> 00:14:49.102 So in hoovering, the emotionally immature, narcissistic person, just they feel so uncomfortable 00:14:49.102 --> 00:14:53.862 because they have lost, even if it's temporarily, that ability to manipulate you because if 00:14:53.862 --> 00:14:56.805 you've just had enough, you've shut down, you've started to withdraw or retreat, then, 00:14:57.502 --> 00:15:02.902 the hoovering will just be just hanging around and just wanting to get you to engage, trying anything. 00:15:02.902 --> 00:15:06.942 And this is where trying to push the positive buttons if they can even to try to get you 00:15:06.942 --> 00:15:09.904 to think, okay, he gets it. This one feels a little bit better. 00:15:10.442 --> 00:15:14.135 The silent treatment. This is one that I think is more common than we know, 00:15:14.522 --> 00:15:17.542 and in the world of emotionally mature relationships, 00:15:17.542 --> 00:15:22.562 sure, there can be some time that people need to step back and get their bearings, 00:15:22.562 --> 00:15:26.225 but then they come back because they have the tools to communicate effectively. 00:15:26.722 --> 00:15:32.049 And the silent treatment, especially in some examples that are given in my women's Facebook group, 00:15:32.362 --> 00:15:37.784 where the guys in those scenarios can go days, days, without communicating with their spouse. 00:15:38.402 --> 00:15:42.282 So this behavior becomes manipulation when somebody purposely ignores you to control you 00:15:42.282 --> 00:15:43.293 or to make you feel isolated. 00:15:43.942 --> 00:15:47.560 So that then at some point, the discomfort becomes so intense, 00:15:48.282 --> 00:15:51.818 that then the more emotionally mature person 00:15:51.982 --> 00:15:56.175 finally will just say, okay, I apologize because I don't like the way this feels. 00:15:56.762 --> 00:16:00.901 But unfortunately to the more emotionally immature or narcissistic person. 00:16:02.282 --> 00:16:07.462 The more palpable you can feel that tension, it's almost as if they are gathering more power 00:16:07.462 --> 00:16:13.362 And so that then when you do finally go and apologize as the more emotionally kind person, 00:16:13.362 --> 00:16:14.540 pathologically kind person, 00:16:15.002 --> 00:16:18.922 then it gives you a sense of relief, but then it also gives them more power. 00:16:18.922 --> 00:16:24.280 And they have now more data that says The longer I hold out, then I will eventually get my way. 00:16:25.055 --> 00:16:30.625 Scapegoating parents who use narcissistic manipulation may place all the blame on one child that they designate as a scapegoat and, 00:16:31.122 --> 00:16:38.365 In the world of narcissistic family systems You'll start to see that there is typically a scapegoat and there's typically a golden child and you may even have 00:16:38.725 --> 00:16:41.805 Different golden children depending on what the scenario is, 00:16:42.510 --> 00:16:47.045 But typically there's just one scapegoat and that can be really difficult and because that scapegoat, 00:16:47.587 --> 00:16:50.945 then is the one that is more than not trying to, 00:16:51.476 --> 00:16:55.945 to show up and be the best version of themselves that they can be in hopes that it will change 00:16:55.945 --> 00:16:58.625 the dynamic in the family, but if they've already been deemed a scapegoat 00:16:58.625 --> 00:16:59.983 by the emotionally immature parent. 00:17:01.065 --> 00:17:05.705 And then passive aggression, indirect blame shifting, sabotage, sarcasm, 00:17:05.705 --> 00:17:08.491 can all point to covert narcissistic manipulation, 00:17:09.005 --> 00:17:13.545 in those passive aggressive ways that people interact with one another can really be, 00:17:13.545 --> 00:17:19.905 this is that point where when people will sometimes say, and of course, if you are in a emotionally 00:17:19.905 --> 00:17:22.084 or if you are in a physically abusive relationship, 00:17:22.185 --> 00:17:26.180 then by all means, there's absolutely no reason to put up with that at all. 00:17:26.545 --> 00:17:32.347 And please seek help, safety, a safety plan, domestic violence, shelter, whatever you can do. 00:17:32.785 --> 00:17:36.416 But the passive aggression can be that emotional abuse. 00:17:36.905 --> 00:17:43.865 And you'll hear people often say that at times, they almost wish that their partner would hit them 00:17:43.865 --> 00:17:46.651 because then they would at least know, okay, this is what this is. 00:17:47.185 --> 00:17:50.657 Because the passive aggression or that covert narcissistic manipulation, 00:17:51.165 --> 00:17:53.225 can just be part of, it just helps you. 00:17:53.225 --> 00:17:58.138 You lose your soul, you lose your sense of self because the words can just be so cutting 00:17:58.345 --> 00:18:00.578 and the things that are really important to you, 00:18:01.025 --> 00:18:05.465 the narcissist will then criticize and attack you for, you know, you're a horrible parent, 00:18:05.465 --> 00:18:10.984 you never show up for me, you don't do enough for the family and those things that will just hurt 00:18:11.305 --> 00:18:15.800 because they truly don't see you, but they know that those are the things that will get you to react. 00:18:16.926 --> 00:18:21.825 She goes on to say that these tactics will confuse you, they can make you question your sense of reality, they damage your self-esteem. 00:18:23.083 --> 00:18:28.053 So, Crystal brings up a term that I haven't used on the podcast. It's narcissistic victim syndrome. 00:18:28.575 --> 00:18:33.814 She said it's a term that collectively describes the specific and often severe effects of narcissistic manipulation. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:45.247 So, while it isn't a recognized mental health condition, many experts acknowledge narcissistic abuse can have serious long-lasting impact on mental health, which it can. It absolutely will rob you of your sense of self. 00:18:46.048 --> 00:18:50.293 And she said that keep in mind that abuse and narcissism aren't always related. 00:18:50.293 --> 00:18:55.493 A diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder doesn't automatically translate to abusive behavior. 00:18:55.493 --> 00:18:58.696 Many people who engage in abuse don't have narcissistic personality disorder. 00:18:59.344 --> 00:19:02.504 But regardless, a mental health diagnosis never excuses abusive behavior. 00:19:03.098 --> 00:19:10.714 She said that people choose to abuse and manipulate others, and it's possible to live with traits of narcissism or any personality disorder without becoming abusive. 00:19:11.434 --> 00:19:22.759 And I think that what can be really difficult in that scenario is if somebody is opening up about their own emotional immaturity and then they hear a phrase or a sentence like that where it's people choose to abuse and manipulate others. 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:37.093 That is true. By definition, it's true. And it can feel really difficult for somebody that has extreme emotional immaturity bordering on narcissistic traits and tendencies or personality disorders when in those moments they feel as if they do not have a choice. 00:19:37.093 --> 00:19:42.373 But that is often because they weren't modeled the correct behavior or they 00:19:42.373 --> 00:19:45.813 weren't modeled healthier coping mechanisms or ways to communicate or 00:19:45.813 --> 00:19:50.413 ways to self-soothe or self-regulate or self-control and so when they feel this 00:19:50.413 --> 00:19:55.613 deep wounding or they feel this deep abandonment issue then instead of being 00:19:55.613 --> 00:20:03.053 able to sit with that discomfort and self-confront then that's where often they will abuse to try to get somebody back into that enmeshment or that 00:20:03.053 --> 00:20:32.813 codependency. And so then, you know, again, I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I feel like I do have people that are listening to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast that are starting to do a little self-confrontation. And so if you feel, if you almost feel offended when you hear that, well, I'm not choosing to abuse or manipulate, I'm just now starting to understand or wake up, well, I'm grateful that that's the place that you're at. But that's even more of a reason to try to go find help from somebody that knows a little bit more around emotional immaturity, or 00:20:32.813 --> 00:20:36.453 narcissistic personality disorder or any of those narcissistic traits and 00:20:36.453 --> 00:20:43.312 tendencies. Because yeah, it might be something where before you know it you're in this amygdala hijack state because of this deep fear of abandonment. 00:20:43.843 --> 00:20:50.757 But then that's the area to self-confront. That's the area to sit with that discomfort and then really you can grow from there. 00:20:51.387 --> 00:20:56.374 So she said, with that in mind, here are 12 signs that might suggest you've experienced narcissistic abuse. 00:20:56.995 --> 00:20:59.174 The first is they seem so perfect, at first. 00:20:59.705 --> 00:21:04.665 Narcissistic abuse tends to follow a clear pattern, though this pattern might look a little different depending on the type of the relationship. 00:21:05.223 --> 00:21:12.137 Research from 2019 suggests that in a romantic relationship, this abuse typically begins slowly after you've fallen hard and fast. 00:21:12.137 --> 00:21:13.739 We call that one the love bombing. 00:21:14.316 --> 00:21:18.537 She said it's no wonder you fell for him. During the love bombing phase, they seemed loving and kind and generous. 00:21:18.537 --> 00:21:23.397 They made you feel special, adored with gushy compliments, affectionate displays, and expensive 00:21:23.397 --> 00:21:29.097 gifts. And I often add that in that love bombing phase, this is where the person is in essence 00:21:29.097 --> 00:21:34.617 trying to consciously or subconsciously become the person that you hope that they are because 00:21:34.617 --> 00:21:39.697 then they like that dopamine dump of this connection as well. And I give those examples 00:21:39.697 --> 00:21:44.897 of if you say, I like whatever, I like country music. And if they are not country music fans, 00:21:44.897 --> 00:21:49.897 rather than being, rather than stepping into their true self and saying, yeah, I'm not a big fan, 00:21:49.897 --> 00:21:51.036 but tell me what you like about it. 00:21:51.637 --> 00:21:54.358 It's like, I love country music, but then because in their mind, they think, 00:21:54.917 --> 00:21:58.037 well, I really like the feeling that I'm getting right now with this person, 00:21:58.037 --> 00:22:00.227 and if they like country music, then I'm sure I'll grow to like it. 00:22:00.737 --> 00:22:04.397 But if that's something that they don't really enjoy, then they're right out of the gate, 00:22:04.397 --> 00:22:08.517 they're being insincere, or they're not being willing to confront and say, 00:22:08.517 --> 00:22:10.976 hey, it's okay for me to have a different opinion or a different thought. 00:22:11.797 --> 00:22:16.224 And so it can be as simple as a different music taste or a different type of food or movie that you like, 00:22:16.737 --> 00:22:21.860 and the person is unable to express an opinion that they feel like someone else might disagree with. 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:28.782 She said the early stage might have felt so intense and overwhelming that you never stopped to consider whether they might be too fantastic. 00:22:29.493 --> 00:22:33.986 Then slowly, these other manipulative tactics begin to replace the gifts and declarations of love. 00:22:34.733 --> 00:22:41.592 And narcissistic parents might also offer love or adoration, praise, financial support, until you do something to displease them and then lose their favor. 00:22:42.124 --> 00:22:45.850 And then they too often turn to those tactics like the silent treatment and gaslighting. 00:22:46.733 --> 00:22:58.290 Next, she says that people doubt that the abuse took place. Narcissistic manipulation and abuse are often so subtle that in public, these behaviors might be so well disguised that others hear or see the same behaviors and they fail to recognize them as abuse. 00:22:58.904 --> 00:23:01.450 This is where we come up with the death by a thousand cuts episode. 00:23:02.055 --> 00:23:04.050 She said you might not even fully understand what's happening. 00:23:04.050 --> 00:23:08.610 You only know that you feel confused or upset or even guilty for your quote mistakes. 00:23:09.292 --> 00:23:12.730 And even in the scenario of parenting, a narcissistic parent might gently say, 00:23:13.289 --> 00:23:16.930 Are you sure you want to eat dessert? Or they might turn a broken dish into a joke at your expense. 00:23:17.386 --> 00:23:19.610 Man, you're so clumsy, you just can't help yourself, can you? 00:23:20.158 --> 00:23:23.930 And they'd laugh with everybody in the room while patting your shoulder to make the insult seem well-intentioned. 00:23:24.866 --> 00:23:28.930 And she said that you would hope that friends and loved ones believe you, but unfortunately this doesn't always happen. 00:23:29.566 --> 00:23:32.878 Your loved ones might not doubt your belief that you were abused, 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:35.849 but they might question your perception of the events and assure you, 00:23:36.173 --> 00:23:39.297 You might have just misunderstood those things. I'm sure that they never meant to hurt you. 00:23:40.010 --> 00:23:42.583 And that's where we get back into that world of the Switzerland friends. 00:23:42.770 --> 00:23:46.562 Well, at least it wasn't this bad, or I'm sure you're not remembering everything correctly. 00:23:47.150 --> 00:23:53.530 And this doubt that people instill can be harmful, because not only does it dismantle your faith 00:23:53.530 --> 00:23:57.472 in your loved ones, but it can also lead you to wonder whether the abuse took place at all. 00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:02.037 She said, maybe you did read too much into their words, or just imagined that look on their face. 00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:06.304 And this is where it's so difficult, because I want you to start to trust your gut, 00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:10.454 and operate from a place of here is my memory, this is what happened. 00:24:11.530 --> 00:24:16.980 Crystal talks about this other sign of this narcissistic victim abuse that they've started a smear campaign. 00:24:17.570 --> 00:24:20.890 She said people with narcissistic traits often need to maintain their image of perfection 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:23.057 in order to keep earning admiration from others. 00:24:23.530 --> 00:24:25.866 And to do this, they may try making you look bad. 00:24:26.370 --> 00:24:28.770 And once you begin pointing out problems or questioning their behavior, 00:24:28.770 --> 00:24:32.356 then they may lash out by openly directing their rage toward you with insults and threats, 00:24:32.870 --> 00:24:36.524 Or here we go back into triangulation, involving others and criticizing you. 00:24:37.230 --> 00:24:40.150 By telling stories to your loved ones that twist the facts about your harmful 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:43.270 or your unstable behavior, the narcissist tries to discredit you. 00:24:43.270 --> 00:24:47.870 And even worse, when you then act or react angrily, because who wouldn't if you're being accused 00:24:47.870 --> 00:24:51.396 of these things that you know to be false or you believe are false, 00:24:51.930 --> 00:24:56.897 then they use your response, you getting frustrated or upset to back up their lies. 00:24:57.670 --> 00:25:00.525 She said people with narcissism often have a knack for charming others. 00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:04.341 That persona that they showed you in the beginning, that everybody else still gets to see that 00:25:04.510 --> 00:25:05.530 on a day-to-day basis. 00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:09.608 So then they can often win support from your loved ones who haven't seen through that facade 00:25:10.030 --> 00:25:12.119 by insisting that they only have your best interest at heart. 00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:16.450 And then when you try explaining the abuse, and your loved ones might side with them. 00:25:17.521 --> 00:25:21.752 She said that part of this narcissistic victim abuse is you feel isolated. 00:25:22.310 --> 00:25:25.131 She said if your loved ones don't understand, you'll likely feel pretty alone, which only 00:25:25.131 --> 00:25:28.918 increases your vulnerability to further narcissistic manipulation. 00:25:29.341 --> 00:25:32.571 Because then the person that's abusing you may pull you back in with kindness or even 00:25:32.571 --> 00:25:34.445 apologies or pretending the abuse never happened. 00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:37.451 And there's that cycle, that continued cycle of abuse. 00:25:38.181 --> 00:25:41.629 So hoovering, as it's often called, tends to work better when you lack support. 00:25:42.169 --> 00:25:46.499 You're more likely to doubt your perception of the abuse when you can't talk with anybody about it. 00:25:47.057 --> 00:25:52.900 So if your loved ones reach out to say that you've made a mistake and they encourage you to give the abusive partner another chance, 00:25:53.377 --> 00:25:56.744 then you might end up doing so to simply regain your closeness with your family and friends. 00:25:57.284 --> 00:26:06.907 Because one of the most difficult things is that person that continues to go back into the trauma bond is that they may not have those skills from the factory to stand on their own. 00:26:07.456 --> 00:26:11.804 And we are, again, I love the phrase, where we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human, 00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:17.332 but it's another emotionally mature human being, not someone that's going to take advantage of or manipulate you 00:26:17.755 --> 00:26:20.293 and the things that you hope to connect on. 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:26.231 She talks about one of the signs that you freeze up. People respond to abuse and other trauma in so many different ways 00:26:26.231 --> 00:26:31.303 that you might attempt to confront the abusive person, which is the fight, or escape the situation, which is flight. 00:26:31.753 --> 00:26:35.831 And if these methods don't work, you may feel unable to use them and you might respond over time, 00:26:35.831 --> 00:26:40.567 especially by freezing or fawning, and that freeze response usually happens when you feel helpless. 00:26:41.080 --> 00:26:48.671 And it often involves almost this feeling of disassociation because you're trying to emotionally distance yourself from the abuse. 00:26:48.671 --> 00:26:51.991 And often you don't feel like you can even leave that freeze response. 00:26:51.991 --> 00:26:58.148 You may just be batting down the hatches internally and waiting for this emotional storm to end. 00:26:58.841 --> 00:27:07.465 And so when you distance yourself from the abuse, it will help decrease its intensity and in essence, effectively numbing some of that pain and distress that you experience. 00:27:08.060 --> 00:27:13.776 She goes on to talk about freezing can have some benefits in certain situations, but it doesn't help when you can escape from danger. 00:27:14.397 --> 00:27:20.960 But if you believe there's no way out of the relationship, then you might remain in it and perhaps even respond by fawning, which is working to keep your partner happy. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.831 So we get that fight or flight. We've got the freeze. Then we have the fawn. The fawning is where it's so, yeah, you're right. 00:27:26.919 --> 00:27:30.043 But just to try to get out of that that uncomfortable moment. 00:27:31.168 --> 00:27:38.622 Here's the stuff that I start seeing as a therapist. She talks about one of the results of this narcissistic victim abuse is you have trouble making decisions. 00:27:38.721 --> 00:27:43.150 She said a pattern of devaluation and criticism can leave you with very little self-esteem and confidence. 00:27:43.916 --> 00:27:49.031 This narcissistic manipulation often involves frequent implications that you make bad decisions and you can't do anything right, 00:27:49.031 --> 00:27:51.234 And aren't you glad that you have that narcissist in your life? 00:27:52.180 --> 00:27:56.672 So an abusive partner may call you stupid or ignorant outright or often with a falsely affectionate tone. 00:27:57.158 --> 00:28:00.903 Honey, you're just so dumb. How would you manage without my help? I don't even know how you'd make it through a day. 00:28:01.722 --> 00:28:05.260 And over time, you might start absorbing these insults and attaching them to your self-perception 00:28:05.656 --> 00:28:10.530 and then constantly second-guess yourself as a result. And unfortunately, I see that in my office so often where people even say, 00:28:10.530 --> 00:28:13.530 I don't know. I don't even know if I'm making any sense. I don't know if I'm right. 00:28:13.530 --> 00:28:15.136 I don't know what the right thing to do is. 00:28:15.883 --> 00:28:19.439 Because these gaslighting tactics can also make you doubt your decision-making abilities. 00:28:20.114 --> 00:28:25.848 So if somebody is manipulating you into believing that you imagine things that actually took place, you might continue doubting your perception of events. 00:28:26.280 --> 00:28:29.944 And then this uncertainty can affect your ability to make decisions well into the future. 00:28:30.583 --> 00:28:36.990 And I want you to, even if you're doing this on the inside, start recognizing how you feel, what you think. 00:28:36.990 --> 00:28:41.530 And we want to get to this place where you eventually will start trusting your gut. 00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:46.830 We want to operate from that place of trusting your gut. In emotionally healthy and mature relationships, that's where we start. 00:28:46.830 --> 00:28:50.310 I may have my opinion, but my wife is certainly going to have her opinion. 00:28:50.721 --> 00:28:54.350 And I want to say, tell me more. What's that like? Because we're in this together. 00:28:54.484 --> 00:28:56.910 It's this edification. One plus one is three. 00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:00.670 Not one person is right. Therefore, the other one must be wrong. 00:29:01.209 --> 00:29:04.350 She said one of the other traits of this narcissistic victim abuse is you always 00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:05.550 feel like you've done something wrong. 00:29:05.692 --> 00:29:09.950 This key characteristic of narcissism is difficulty taking responsibility for any 00:29:09.950 --> 00:29:11.590 negative actions or harmful behaviors. 00:29:12.300 --> 00:29:16.630 If your partner literally doesn't say, I'm sorry, hasn't said I'm sorry, or that's 00:29:16.630 --> 00:29:46.630 the one of the narcissistic apologies of, okay, fine, I guess I'm sorry, but then you are going to feel like you're the one that has done things wrong. And so often the pathologically kind person will then apologize in hopes that they are modeling behavior to their spouse. I was saying, you know, I, yeah, I, you know what, I am sorry about what I said or how I showed up and hoping that the, even the spouse at that point will say, you know what, I'm sorry too, but not, okay, good. I'm glad you are acknowledging that. 00:29:44.744 --> 00:29:48.219 So this abuse of partners typically find some way to cast blame on you, 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.794 and they might accomplish this through deceit. And she gives a couple of examples, 00:29:51.794 --> 00:29:54.656 often by insisting that they said something that you have no recollection of, 00:29:55.277 --> 00:29:59.319 or getting so angry that you end up soothing them by apologizing and agreeing that you were wrong. 00:29:59.805 --> 00:30:02.594 And so often, again, this is just to get out of the discomfort of the moment. 00:30:03.234 --> 00:30:07.714 Unfortunately, a narcissist can just be so fascinating that they can either sit with 00:30:07.714 --> 00:30:12.114 this incredible discomfort of things like the silent treatment until then you finally break, 00:30:12.822 --> 00:30:19.394 or they can't sit with a millisecond of discomfort and that's where they have to then get angry or take the complete victim stance. 00:30:20.321 --> 00:30:24.994 She said, say you suspect that your spouse or your narcissistic partner has cheated on you, 00:30:25.524 --> 00:30:29.114 and you explain the concerning behaviors that you've noticed and asked if something's going on. 00:30:29.827 --> 00:30:33.394 A partner using narcissistic manipulation might respond with extreme anger. 00:30:33.394 --> 00:30:39.194 They may respond with accusations of their own, redirect the blame, saying that these things that are intended to hurt and belittle you 00:30:39.541 --> 00:30:41.287 so that then the focus is off of them. 00:30:41.863 --> 00:30:47.634 So these barrages of rage can leave you feeling helpless, independent, and grateful that they're willing to remain with somebody who makes so many mistakes. 00:30:48.597 --> 00:30:52.999 So then even after leaving the relationship, you might carry forward the belief that you can't do anything right. 00:30:53.683 --> 00:30:58.509 That when things go wrong or in other areas of your life, that you might start to blame yourself for causing those problems. 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:04.314 I appreciate that she also brought up that one of the traits of this narcissistic victim abuse is you have unexplained physical symptoms. 00:31:04.314 --> 00:31:08.314 And we talk so much about The Body Keeps the Score, Bessel van der Kolk's amazing book. 00:31:09.149 --> 00:31:13.074 But you'll find that when people are starting to just lose themselves that they will often 00:31:13.074 --> 00:31:18.234 have a lot of aches, a lot of pains, a lot of everything from fibromyalgia, chronic pain, 00:31:18.234 --> 00:31:22.954 irritable bowel syndrome, back aches, neck aches, hypertension, you name it. 00:31:22.954 --> 00:31:23.954 There are so many things. 00:31:24.129 --> 00:31:27.883 There's chronic fatigue or why am I drawing a blank on migraines? There we go. 00:31:28.754 --> 00:31:31.734 But she says that abuse can trigger anxious and nervous feelings that sometimes lead to 00:31:31.734 --> 00:31:37.314 physical symptoms. You might notice appetite changes, upset stomach or nausea, stomach pain, and other gastrointestinal 00:31:37.314 --> 00:31:41.994 stress, muscle aches and pains, insomnia, fatigue. 00:31:41.008 --> 00:31:46.212 And she said using alcohol and other substances can sometimes seem like a helpful way to manage these symptoms, especially insomnia. 00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:51.910 So then as a result, you end up consuming more than you'd like in an effort to manage these unwanted feelings of physical distress. 00:31:52.288 --> 00:31:58.758 And now you have this co-occurring situation where you are, I mean, I've worked with people that are drinking heavily, they're turning to their smoking pot, 00:31:58.758 --> 00:32:04.333 they're doing these things to just try to tune out of life because they just feel so off, so imbalanced. 00:32:05.062 --> 00:32:11.292 Which leads to another form of another symptom of narcissistic abuse is you feel restless and unsettled. 00:32:11.688 --> 00:32:16.729 Because she said it's so unpredictable. You may not know whether they're going to criticize you or surprise you with a gift. 00:32:17.251 --> 00:32:22.428 And if you don't want some if you don't really feel like there is consistency or know what someone will do or say at any given moment, 00:32:22.968 --> 00:32:27.532 you may start to develop a lot of tension from needing to regularly prepare yourself to face conflict. 00:32:28.171 --> 00:32:38.478 And there's almost this just insane tension. And then there's this feeling of relief, but over time that relief when they aren't being mean, starts to just become flat. 00:32:38.478 --> 00:32:47.310 This flat affect or this feeling of what's called this anhedonia, which said worries about the constant stream of criticism and how to best handle the abusive behaviors that you're beginning to recognize, 00:32:47.769 --> 00:32:53.108 constantly leave you on edge and you may not even know how to relax anymore since you might not feel safe letting your guard down. 00:32:53.918 --> 00:33:00.478 And I think that's one of the difficult things is people start having trouble with things like sleep and sleep is where you reset those cortisol levels in the brain. 00:33:01.164 --> 00:33:12.478 And so even if you're just having these fits and spurts of sleep off and on and then you're hitting the next day and your brain hasn't fully had a chance to recuperate and to flush out the bad things from the day before, 00:33:12.478 --> 00:33:17.578 before, then it's as if your baseline of cortisol or this stress hormone, the 00:33:17.578 --> 00:33:22.438 stress drug in your brain is operating from a higher baseline. So then you may 00:33:22.438 --> 00:33:31.558 just snap or respond. You have a very small runway until you're at that place where you just feel like you are gonna lose your mind. So she said you 00:33:31.558 --> 00:33:37.398 don't recognize yourself. When facing abuse, many people eventually adjust their self-identity to accommodate the abusive partner. So she said, say your 00:33:37.398 --> 00:33:39.838 partner insists that when you go out with your friends you're telling me that 00:33:39.838 --> 00:33:41.819 you don't love me, you'd rather see them instead. 00:33:42.558 --> 00:33:45.042 She says, of course you love them, so you stop going out with your friends. 00:33:45.158 --> 00:33:46.275 Next, you give up your hobbies. 00:33:46.878 --> 00:33:50.578 You skip after work happy hour with coworkers. Eventually, you cancel your weekly visit with your sister. 00:33:50.578 --> 00:33:55.529 You spend time doing what your partner wants to do so that they really will feel like you do care. 00:33:56.178 --> 00:34:00.238 So then she says, these changes often lead to a loss of your sense of self, 00:34:00.238 --> 00:34:01.885 which can leave you feeling lost and empty. 00:34:02.358 --> 00:34:06.287 You might have a hard time enjoying life and losing sight of your sense and your purpose. 00:34:07.198 --> 00:34:13.878 And that's the situation where in healthy relationships, people both are enjoying a vibrant version of life. 00:34:13.878 --> 00:34:18.035 And then we are coming together with curiosity, we're having shared experiences, 00:34:18.198 --> 00:34:21.118 and it's all part of the maturation process. 00:34:21.118 --> 00:34:25.178 That of course we're gonna have relationships with other people that are healthy, 00:34:25.178 --> 00:34:29.648 that are empowering, that are emboldening, that are helping us raise our own emotional baseline. 00:34:30.078 --> 00:34:33.312 And our spouses are saying, tell me more. What's that like? What are you learning? 00:34:33.818 --> 00:34:38.898 And then how can we create meaning shared experience together. 00:34:38.020 --> 00:34:44.069 She said that you have trouble setting boundaries. This is such a big one. Someone engaging in narcissistic abuse often has little respect for boundaries. 00:34:44.592 --> 00:34:53.684 And so when you try to set or enforce limits, they might challenge them, completely ignore them, or even give the silent treatment until you do what they want. Eventually, you might give up on your boundaries. 00:34:54.224 --> 00:35:01.462 And once you end a relationship or you get distanced from a narcissistic parent, for example, you promise yourself that you will not answer their calls and texts or you won't see them at all. 00:35:02.146 --> 00:35:06.570 But if they know that they can eventually wear you down though, then they may not let you go easily. 00:35:06.570 --> 00:35:10.770 Instead, they'll keep calling, they'll text in hopes of getting you to set aside those boundaries again. 00:35:10.770 --> 00:35:15.235 Because this is like saying a boundary, unfortunately, in the world of narcissism is a challenge. 00:35:15.703 --> 00:35:21.870 It's almost as if you are handing the narcissist some food. Here, here you go, here's my boundary. 00:35:21.870 --> 00:35:26.970 And as you can just run right through it or devour it, then it gives them more power of, 00:35:26.970 --> 00:35:33.195 okay, see, you don't even understand yourself because you try to hold these adorable little boundaries, but I know best. 00:35:34.130 --> 00:35:37.890 And so if you've experienced that narcissistic abuse, you might also have trouble setting healthy boundaries 00:35:37.890 --> 00:35:39.271 in your relationships with others. 00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:43.710 And here's kind of wrapping things up, we get back to that concepts around anxiety, 00:35:44.150 --> 00:35:48.886 is that she said that this narcissistic abuse can lead to these symptoms of anxiety and depression, 00:35:49.610 --> 00:35:53.585 that anxiety and depression can commonly develop as a result of this narcissistic abuse. 00:35:54.250 --> 00:35:57.950 So the significant stress that you face can trigger these persistent feelings of worry, 00:35:57.950 --> 00:36:01.630 nervousness, and fear, especially when you never know what to expect 00:36:01.630 --> 00:36:03.883 from the behavior of the emotionally abusive, 00:36:03.950 --> 00:36:04.874 the emotionally immature. 00:36:05.603 --> 00:36:08.390 You might feel hopeless, you might feel worthless, you might lose interest in things 00:36:08.390 --> 00:36:12.616 that used to bring you joy, and you have a hard time seeing a hopeful outcome for the future. 00:36:13.470 --> 00:36:19.510 And I would just wanna say in that moment that your brain, again, is this don't get killed device, 00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:23.890 and it's trying to just manage, and it's trying to manage relationships and situations. 00:36:23.890 --> 00:36:31.250 And so when you start to notice that you are losing just any joy in your life, I don't believe 00:36:31.250 --> 00:36:35.860 that it is your brain saying, okay, let's shut it all down, but your brain wants to live. 00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:41.819 And so it is telling you, okay, I'm trying to use anxiety for good, I'm trying to make you aware. 00:36:42.410 --> 00:36:46.370 And if that isn't working, then let's, they may turn, your brain might turn 00:36:46.370 --> 00:36:51.370 to a little bit of depression and say, okay, let's sit this one out because you going in there 00:36:51.370 --> 00:36:52.568 is not making you feel better. 00:36:52.730 --> 00:36:55.691 Going in there, meaning interacting with this emotionally abusive person. 00:36:56.592 --> 00:36:59.932 And at some point, I think your body, your brain is trying to tell you, 00:37:00.094 --> 00:37:07.002 hey, do something. Help me out here. I feel like even the manifestations of pain from these, 00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:13.162 emotional situations when the body then takes that emotional pain and then almost as if it 00:37:13.162 --> 00:37:18.440 transfigures it to physical pain is saying, okay, you're not dealing with the emotional pain. Maybe, 00:37:18.922 --> 00:37:23.482 if I give you this physical pain, then you'll take care of it. You'll address it. Because your body 00:37:23.482 --> 00:37:27.163 doesn't want you to be emotionally abused. It doesn't want you to shut down. 00:37:27.938 --> 00:37:31.462 It wants you to live. It wants you to find your sense of self, your sense of 00:37:31.462 --> 00:37:36.922 purpose, and so that you can just be, be in the world and just enjoy and just let 00:37:36.922 --> 00:37:43.462 your light so shine and lift others around you and all those wonderful things. So if you find that you are overly anxious trying to predict what 00:37:43.462 --> 00:37:50.022 can happen next or if you find that you are depressed and just continually wanting to sit this one out, then I really believe that that is your body 00:37:50.022 --> 00:37:54.837 saying, hey, this is hard and I want you to do something to take care of yourself. 00:37:55.899 --> 00:37:58.902 She said it's also common to have a lot of confusion over what caused them to 00:37:58.902 --> 00:38:06.502 change so abruptly, especially if you don't know much about narcissistic manipulation. This is part of those popcorn moments where if the narcissist 00:38:06.502 --> 00:38:09.982 can then find whatever button works, if all of a sudden they push you too far, 00:38:10.482 --> 00:38:15.342 you withdraw and then they come back and love bomb. Well, whatever works. If that 00:38:15.342 --> 00:38:19.582 doesn't work, now they may even go with the push new buttons. Now go back to 00:38:19.582 --> 00:38:23.742 that you're a horrible person or you're an unfit father or mother. 00:38:24.222 --> 00:38:28.262 And so it's a continual just battle to find the right buttons to get you back 00:38:28.262 --> 00:38:31.862 into enmeshment. She said, you might even shoulder the blame for the abuse, 00:38:31.882 --> 00:38:34.782 perhaps believing their accusations that you must not care about them enough or 00:38:34.802 --> 00:38:37.862 blame yourself for falling for their deception in the first place, 00:38:37.862 --> 00:38:44.062 but either can add to feelings of worthlessness and further diminish your self-esteem. So what do you do? How do you find help? 00:38:44.222 --> 00:38:47.770 Any kind of abuse can take a real toll on your mental and physical health. 00:38:48.274 --> 00:38:53.502 And her article crystal said if your loved ones still doubt you or tell you to just move on you may feel unheard and unsupported, 00:38:54.620 --> 00:38:58.330 So a lot of the basis around the entire waking up the narcissism podcast is that 00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:04.222 When you start feeling these things hearing these things that when you talk to somebody and if they if they are not being a Switzerland 00:39:04.222 --> 00:39:09.970 Friend they may just say well just get out right now, but I know it's not that easy and you still for. 00:39:11.257 --> 00:39:15.502 Most of the time want to determine okay, but is it me that that's one of the number one questions 00:39:15.502 --> 00:39:18.396 I get, but is it me? And what would it look like if I change? 00:39:19.449 --> 00:39:24.211 She said if your loved ones again still doubt you or just tell you to move on, you feel unheard and unsupported, 00:39:24.607 --> 00:39:27.830 that can make it really hard to trust people again, leaving you feeling isolated and alone. 00:39:28.299 --> 00:39:31.299 So whether you're just beginning to notice the first signs of narcissistic manipulation 00:39:31.299 --> 00:39:34.942 or still trying to make sense of an abusive relationship that you maybe even already left, 00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:37.697 then therapy can really help you begin healing. 00:39:38.299 --> 00:39:42.972 And she said therapy offers this safe place to learn coping strategies, to manage mental health symptoms, 00:39:43.512 --> 00:39:46.293 practice setting healthy boundaries, explore ways to rebuild your sense of self. 00:39:47.005 --> 00:39:58.780 But it's really important to find a therapist who specializes in abuse recovery because that can validate your experience, it can help you understand that you aren't at fault and offer support through these early stages of recovery. 00:39:59.527 --> 00:40:07.224 So it's important to get help and there are, you can get emergency support 24 hours a day, 7 days a week from the National Domestic Violence Hotline. 00:40:07.881 --> 00:40:22.870 There you can text LOVEIS to 866-331-9474. You can call 1-800-799-7233. This is again the National Domestic Violence Hotline or they even have an online chat available. 00:40:23.518 --> 00:40:34.299 But one of the most important things that you can do is start to find help. And that might even be just a phase of you starting to listen to more podcasts and watch more YouTube videos and read more books. 00:40:34.951 --> 00:40:39.299 And that is being you're on the path of awareness of the light enlightenment. 00:40:39.299 --> 00:40:42.099 You didn't know what you didn't know and now you're starting to learn. 00:40:42.099 --> 00:40:44.999 You're starting to learn more about what what is happening in your life, 00:40:44.999 --> 00:40:47.999 but it's still gonna be really hard to do anything about it and just know that 00:40:47.999 --> 00:40:50.903 that's a really difficult place to be but it's a real normal place to be and. 00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.299 Eventually you're going to have more of a path of knowing what to do and you'll 00:40:54.299 --> 00:40:57.330 do it more than you don't and eventually you're going to become you're going 00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:01.699 to become this person that now is aware is helping yourself helping others, 00:41:01.699 --> 00:41:05.139 which is eventually going to help your family, your kids, those around you. 00:41:05.630 --> 00:41:09.358 And boy, I see you and I know that it's hard to be on this path or this journey, 00:41:09.952 --> 00:41:13.019 but just know that I'm glad you're on the path. 00:41:13.130 --> 00:41:15.179 And I'm not just going to drop the old, well, at least you're on the path, 00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:18.099 because that might feel invalidating, but I'm grateful that you're on the path. 00:41:18.216 --> 00:41:22.618 So reach out if you have additional questions, comments, share this with somebody, if you think it'll help. 00:41:23.299 --> 00:41:29.217 You can contact me at contact at Tony Overbay dot com or through whatever the various social media platforms are as well. 00:41:29.702 --> 00:41:32.800 And hang in there. Again, I see you, I know the work you're doing, 00:41:32.979 --> 00:41:34.312 and I'll see you next week on Waking Up To Nerd. 00:41:34.320 --> 00:42:15.314 Music.