Music.
Hey, welcome to episode 69 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast
and the Waking Up to Narcissism Premium Question and Answer Podcast and soon to come Murder on the Couch,
Therapy Meets True Crime.
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So let's get to today's topic. We're gonna talk about anxiety,
but one of the things I wanna do first is I just have so many poems now,
from the Women's Facebook group, and I would love if any of the men listening
that are poets as well, that would like to express maybe the frustration that they're having,
whether it's in their own relationships to emotionally immature or narcissistic women,
or if they are poetic and waking up to their own emotional immaturity,
please email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and continue.
I've got a few more emails this week from therapists, which is wonderful,
because I want to do more with that.
Therapists who are referring people to the podcast, or therapists who are also working in the world
of emotional immaturity or narcissism, and men, men who are ready to group,
then that would be wonderful.
Please continue to reach out at contact at TonyOrbea.com.
So let me start, well actually before I start with a poem, I just want to take you on a little train of thought.
I think this will have to do with the topic today. Today we're going to talk about anxiety, we're going to talk about uncertainty,
we're going to talk about the unknown, and that plays I think a much larger role in the world of emotional immaturity
and people that are in relationships with emotionally immature people,
because they are continually trying to manage other people's emotions or manage their own anxiety,
which doesn't allow a lot of space or opportunity for people to just be.
For people to just be and explore and do and figure out what matters to them when they don't even realize how much emotional bandwidth is being spent on trying to manage, manage their emotions, manage other people.
But then when you do have people that start to recognize that they are enough, they start to recognize their own worth, they start to recognize that it's okay to tap into what they want to do and how they want to feel,
then I find that people will just start to say,
okay, I don't even know what to do next.
And I remember a time long ago, I was working with a guy and he loved movies.
He loved movies, he loved TV shows, and we would talk about movies and TV shows often
because that was, you could tell it was his happy place.
And for me growing up, movies were just, they were an escape, they were a retreat.
I just, I loved everything about them.
And so he would just give me these in-depth movie reviews as if he were a real syscal and Ebert.
And if you know who they are, then you're probably of my age.
If not, I don't know who the normal, or who the current movie reviewers are.
But he would just go in depth about movie reviews. And so when he started to really feel like, okay, I want to figure out who I am, but I don't even know what to do first. You kind of go for a little bit of what seems like the low hanging fruit. And I said, what would that look like if you wrote movie reviews? And at the time, everybody had a blog. I think the sites were called Blogger. I think maybe Google bought that out. But you had a blog and then he said, well, I don't know. And nobody would listen. Nobody would read it. And I don't know if it would go anywhere. And that's part of the yeah, buts. Yeah, but maybe I would want to. But yeah, but nobody's going to read it.
To care and I don't know how to promote it. And that's not even the point. So if the point
is that you start doing instead of ruminating or worrying, then we suggested that this guy
just start writing reviews. And so then we just had a, we were kind of having fun just
Googling different review sites. And then he was saying, okay, I wonder, I wonder if,
I could pack in the review to just a few lines because he was a man of few words, a lot of
depth, but few words. And so just joking, I said, what if you did a haiku and you did
haiku movie reviews and then he said he joked and he said oh I'm they're probably
already being done and then I really did think to myself man this day and age and
this was years and years ago I thought he's probably right so we googled and
sure enough we found a review site that the reviews were all haikus so I'm gonna
read a haiku from the narcissistic women's Facebook group which is so just,
simple to the point but yet beautiful and profound but before I do that let me
read you a couple of haiku movie reviews. So the first one is about Pixar's Up.
Love, loss, and regret all in the first 10 minutes. Better pack Kleenex. That's it.
But boy, it kind of encapsulates everything. There's another one haiku from Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King. Not only that, but the extended
edition. Couldn't them eagles simply fly the ring bearer all the way to doom? That,
is deep and it is true. I've wondered the same thing. So here is the haiku from the
Facebook group and actually what I should do is it's gonna sound like I'm
doing this in real time or I already know this but I am going to pause and remind people and myself what a haiku consists of. So I googled what is a haiku
and it is a Japanese poem of 17 syllables in three lines of five, seven,
and five, traditionally evoking images of the natural world. And now let me tell
what ADHD looks like, there was a haiku generator and I'm doing everything within my power to
not just go play with that because I only have a few minutes before my first client
arrives and I would like to lay down some of this content so I can come back and finish
it in the not too distant future.
So back to the haiku. The haiku from the Women's Narcissistic Facebook group just simply says, I was so alone, waiting
for him to love me, now I love myself.
So, I believe that just is so powerful and so simplistic and it fits the five, seven
and five lines of syllables.
If that really resonated with you and you feel like, man, I don't know how to do a lengthy
poem and share the depths of my soul, it's really interesting because I feel like just
even taking a look at something like haikus could be something that could raise your emotional
baseline and just even starting to do.
Do what? Start to read haikus, learn what they are, start to try to write haikus.
It's all better than ruminating and worrying.
Let me get to the full poem that I want to read. This is also from the group.
When darkness comes, it comes quietly. It tipped toes inside, slipping through the doorway.
Tip tap, tip tap, the faint sound of bare feet on the wood floor.
It creeps its way in, finding a way into every crack and crevice, slowly, deliberately, methodically.
It wraps its long, twisted, gnarled fingers around my neck, and I cannot breathe.
Claws and tears at my heart leaving me in agony like a parasite that infects my
mind it controls me I cannot think bewildered and confused I stagger up the
stairs the hallway mirror startles me and I see gaping holes in my reflection
where have I gone what has become of me barely anything recognizable or a value
a stained and tattered t-shirt tossed into the corner of the dirty bathroom
floor I feel like the poetry just so resonates and I think in the last three
or four weeks of the Waking Up the Narcissist podcast, that poetry really has just expressed,
how people feel this loss of self and then recognizing that they no longer, they don't
know what it feels like truly to be the person that they were or want to be.
And so I feel like this act of poetry truly is just expressing the fact that these people
that are in these relationships start to just slowly but surely recognize this dying on
on the inside and then this desire or this now opportunity
for new growth or rebirth.
So today I wanna talk about anxiety and I wanna talk about uncertainty
and I think that you'll see how these really play
into where many people are, especially when they find a podcast like Waking Up to Narcissism
or somebody that likes to talk about interacting with emotionally immature people,
whether it's a me or a Dr. Romney or a Ross Rosenberg,
whoever it is, Christine Hammond,
But at that point, there's a lot of anxiety that has led the person to finally look for more or look for answers.
And then the answers come, and here begins that narcissistic awareness grief
where the answers can often feel overwhelming,
and cause even more anxiety because the certainty that people were trying to cling onto
or hope for in their marriage or in their lives of that it will get better and it will eventually look like this
and he or she eventually will get it.
That's seeking certainty, and the brain desperately wants certainty.
Then when things aren't playing out the way that we hope that they will,
then that uncertainty absolutely will cause just more and more anxiety.
And it's so hard at first to try to just say to somebody, hey, let's just accept the fact that things might not be certain.
Because then if we're understanding that they aren't what we thought that they were,
now we can just truly be in each moment.
And instead of trying to manage anxiety around trying to alleviate anything that will cause additional anxiety or that will cause additional pain,
then we just accept the fact that there will be moments of anxiety and there will be moments of
pain. But then what also comes along with that is the opportunity to have moments of joy, moments
of calm, moments of peace. And I did an episode a few weeks ago, I think on the virtual couch,
just talking about acceptance. And this isn't that acceptance of something like anxiety or
or acceptance of something like uncertainty,
doesn't just mean that I just give in, that I just acquiesce and that I am just saying, okay, I give up.
But acceptance means to take in in its entirety without defense.
So am I accepting. In the world of acceptance and commitment therapy,
there's this principle or this concept that if I am unwilling to have it, I will.
Meaning that if I'm unwilling to be anxious, then I will be spending so much emotional calories
and bandwidth trying to make sure I am not anxious that that alone will cause more anxiety.
So if I am unwilling to have uncertainty, then I will have even more because the desire to make sure of things
or try to make sense of things or find certainty in every bit of my life is going to cause more anxiety
and more uncertainty.
So I'm gonna use, here's where I feel like about as creative as I get,
and he uses my Muse today.
An article from Healthline.com. This is by Daniel. It's medically reviewed by Daniel Wade, who's a licensed clinical social worker, and written by Crystal Raepol.
And it is called 12 Signs That You've Experienced Narcissistic Abuse, Plus How To Get Help.
The article begins with a definition of narcissistic personality disorder, talking about it being a complex mental health condition,
that typically involves a grandiose or inflated sense of self, extreme need for admiration and attention, among other symptoms.
And so this is where I want to jump off the map a tiny bit and talk about, again, I think that narcissistic personality disorder is being talked about a lot, but it's a pretty small percentage of the population.
But if we talk about emotional immaturity and start with a place that we are pretty much all emotionally immature in so many different areas, but then those who are seeking help are looking to become more emotionally mature.
And that requires a lot of introspection, a lot of self-confrontation.
And so if you are asking yourself, again, if I am the narcissist,
if you are literally asking yourself that, you're probably asking because you've been listening and researching and wondering and doing and trying to read and discover and find out,
and those are not traits or characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder.
So there may be some emotional maturity, immaturity on the way to maturity,
but definitely not narcissistic personality disorder at that point.
She says that common types of narcissistic manipulation include triangulation,
which is somebody who is trying to pull someone else, a third person, into your conflict,
and that is trying to reinforce their own opinion or their position.
And this can happen in so many different ways. Once you're aware of triangulation,
one of the examples that I will often give is somebody coming into my office and saying that
they were talking with their friends, they were talking with the co-worker, they were talking,
with their doctor, and their doctor even agrees that their wife should change her behavior or
You know, I was talking to my doctor about my wife and even the doctor thinks that my wife should get on antidepressants.
And I remember that one in particular that was a very real scenario.
And at the time I didn't stop and say this and I in hindsight I wish I would have.
But if you just break that one down so okay so you, the person in this situation, the more emotionally immature narcissist was the male.
So he then goes to his doctor who in this day and age it takes a little while to get an appointment for a doctor.
You're probably gonna have five or 10 minutes to lay out.
And then in those five or 10 minutes with your doctor, you laid out a scenario so perfectly
that then your doctor who does not know your wife was able to diagnose your wife with depression
or a major depressive disorder, including which medications that your wife should take.
So triangulation, it just makes no sense whatsoever. And that was one of those things as a therapist
that the more that I was working with clients over the years
and couples where that was one of the situations where that was just not the way that we normally work
to couples therapy, where someone's coming in and saying, yeah, I was talking to your sister,
I was talking to your brother,
I was talking to my friends at work, and it was all about, I was talking about them about you,
and I mean, they agree that you should get help, you should change, and that's just not the way
an emotionally mature person interacts.
Next she talks about the narcissistic manipulative tactic of gaslighting. Someone trying to gaslight you tries to get you to doubt your own perspective and reality, often by twisting facts or insisting things you don't remember that didn't actually happen.
Hoovering. We don't talk about this one very often on the podcast and I would like to give this one a little more attention, but this tactic involves attempts to reconnect or pull you back into a toxic or abusive relationship.
So in hoovering, the emotionally immature, narcissistic person, just they feel so uncomfortable
because they have lost, even if it's temporarily, that ability to manipulate you because if
you've just had enough, you've shut down, you've started to withdraw or retreat, then,
the hoovering will just be just hanging around and just wanting to get you to engage, trying anything.
And this is where trying to push the positive buttons if they can even to try to get you
to think, okay, he gets it. This one feels a little bit better.
The silent treatment. This is one that I think is more common than we know,
and in the world of emotionally mature relationships,
sure, there can be some time that people need to step back and get their bearings,
but then they come back because they have the tools to communicate effectively.
And the silent treatment, especially in some examples that are given in my women's Facebook group,
where the guys in those scenarios can go days, days, without communicating with their spouse.
So this behavior becomes manipulation when somebody purposely ignores you to control you
or to make you feel isolated.
So that then at some point, the discomfort becomes so intense,
that then the more emotionally mature person
finally will just say, okay, I apologize because I don't like the way this feels.
But unfortunately to the more emotionally immature or narcissistic person.
The more palpable you can feel that tension, it's almost as if they are gathering more power
And so that then when you do finally go and apologize as the more emotionally kind person,
pathologically kind person,
then it gives you a sense of relief, but then it also gives them more power.
And they have now more data that says The longer I hold out, then I will eventually get my way.
Scapegoating parents who use narcissistic manipulation may place all the blame on one child that they designate as a scapegoat and,
In the world of narcissistic family systems You'll start to see that there is typically a scapegoat and there's typically a golden child and you may even have
Different golden children depending on what the scenario is,
But typically there's just one scapegoat and that can be really difficult and because that scapegoat,
then is the one that is more than not trying to,
to show up and be the best version of themselves that they can be in hopes that it will change
the dynamic in the family, but if they've already been deemed a scapegoat
by the emotionally immature parent.
And then passive aggression, indirect blame shifting, sabotage, sarcasm,
can all point to covert narcissistic manipulation,
in those passive aggressive ways that people interact with one another can really be,
this is that point where when people will sometimes say, and of course, if you are in a emotionally
or if you are in a physically abusive relationship,
then by all means, there's absolutely no reason to put up with that at all.
And please seek help, safety, a safety plan, domestic violence, shelter, whatever you can do.
But the passive aggression can be that emotional abuse.
And you'll hear people often say that at times, they almost wish that their partner would hit them
because then they would at least know, okay, this is what this is.
Because the passive aggression or that covert narcissistic manipulation,
can just be part of, it just helps you.
You lose your soul, you lose your sense of self because the words can just be so cutting
and the things that are really important to you,
the narcissist will then criticize and attack you for, you know, you're a horrible parent,
you never show up for me, you don't do enough for the family and those things that will just hurt
because they truly don't see you, but they know that those are the things that will get you to react.
She goes on to say that these tactics will confuse you, they can make you question your sense of reality, they damage your self-esteem.
So, Crystal brings up a term that I haven't used on the podcast. It's narcissistic victim syndrome.
She said it's a term that collectively describes the specific and often severe effects of narcissistic manipulation.
So, while it isn't a recognized mental health condition, many experts acknowledge narcissistic abuse can have serious long-lasting impact on mental health, which it can. It absolutely will rob you of your sense of self.
And she said that keep in mind that abuse and narcissism aren't always related.
A diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder doesn't automatically translate to abusive behavior.
Many people who engage in abuse don't have narcissistic personality disorder.
But regardless, a mental health diagnosis never excuses abusive behavior.
She said that people choose to abuse and manipulate others, and it's possible to live with traits of narcissism or any personality disorder without becoming abusive.
And I think that what can be really difficult in that scenario is if somebody is opening up about their own emotional immaturity and then they hear a phrase or a sentence like that where it's people choose to abuse and manipulate others.
That is true. By definition, it's true. And it can feel really difficult for somebody that has extreme emotional immaturity bordering on narcissistic traits and tendencies or personality disorders when in those moments they feel as if they do not have a choice.
But that is often because they weren't modeled the correct behavior or they
weren't modeled healthier coping mechanisms or ways to communicate or
ways to self-soothe or self-regulate or self-control and so when they feel this
deep wounding or they feel this deep abandonment issue then instead of being
able to sit with that discomfort and self-confront then that's where often they will abuse to try to get somebody back into that enmeshment or that
codependency. And so then, you know, again, I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I feel like I do have people that are listening to the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast that are starting to do a little self-confrontation. And so if you feel, if you almost feel offended when you hear that, well, I'm not choosing to abuse or manipulate, I'm just now starting to understand or wake up, well, I'm grateful that that's the place that you're at. But that's even more of a reason to try to go find help from somebody that knows a little bit more around emotional immaturity, or
narcissistic personality disorder or any of those narcissistic traits and
tendencies. Because yeah, it might be something where before you know it you're in this amygdala hijack state because of this deep fear of abandonment.
But then that's the area to self-confront. That's the area to sit with that discomfort and then really you can grow from there.
So she said, with that in mind, here are 12 signs that might suggest you've experienced narcissistic abuse.
The first is they seem so perfect, at first.
Narcissistic abuse tends to follow a clear pattern, though this pattern might look a little different depending on the type of the relationship.
Research from 2019 suggests that in a romantic relationship, this abuse typically begins slowly after you've fallen hard and fast.
We call that one the love bombing.
She said it's no wonder you fell for him. During the love bombing phase, they seemed loving and kind and generous.
They made you feel special, adored with gushy compliments, affectionate displays, and expensive
gifts. And I often add that in that love bombing phase, this is where the person is in essence
trying to consciously or subconsciously become the person that you hope that they are because
then they like that dopamine dump of this connection as well. And I give those examples
of if you say, I like whatever, I like country music. And if they are not country music fans,
rather than being, rather than stepping into their true self and saying, yeah, I'm not a big fan,
but tell me what you like about it.
It's like, I love country music, but then because in their mind, they think,
well, I really like the feeling that I'm getting right now with this person,
and if they like country music, then I'm sure I'll grow to like it.
But if that's something that they don't really enjoy, then they're right out of the gate,
they're being insincere, or they're not being willing to confront and say,
hey, it's okay for me to have a different opinion or a different thought.
And so it can be as simple as a different music taste or a different type of food or movie that you like,
and the person is unable to express an opinion that they feel like someone else might disagree with.
She said the early stage might have felt so intense and overwhelming that you never stopped to consider whether they might be too fantastic.
Then slowly, these other manipulative tactics begin to replace the gifts and declarations of love.
And narcissistic parents might also offer love or adoration, praise, financial support, until you do something to displease them and then lose their favor.
And then they too often turn to those tactics like the silent treatment and gaslighting.
Next, she says that people doubt that the abuse took place. Narcissistic manipulation and abuse are often so subtle that in public, these behaviors might be so well disguised that others hear or see the same behaviors and they fail to recognize them as abuse.
This is where we come up with the death by a thousand cuts episode.
She said you might not even fully understand what's happening.
You only know that you feel confused or upset or even guilty for your quote mistakes.
And even in the scenario of parenting, a narcissistic parent might gently say,
Are you sure you want to eat dessert? Or they might turn a broken dish into a joke at your expense.
Man, you're so clumsy, you just can't help yourself, can you?
And they'd laugh with everybody in the room while patting your shoulder to make the insult seem well-intentioned.
And she said that you would hope that friends and loved ones believe you, but unfortunately this doesn't always happen.
Your loved ones might not doubt your belief that you were abused,
but they might question your perception of the events and assure you,
You might have just misunderstood those things. I'm sure that they never meant to hurt you.
And that's where we get back into that world of the Switzerland friends.
Well, at least it wasn't this bad, or I'm sure you're not remembering everything correctly.
And this doubt that people instill can be harmful, because not only does it dismantle your faith
in your loved ones, but it can also lead you to wonder whether the abuse took place at all.
She said, maybe you did read too much into their words, or just imagined that look on their face.
And this is where it's so difficult, because I want you to start to trust your gut,
and operate from a place of here is my memory, this is what happened.
Crystal talks about this other sign of this narcissistic victim abuse that they've started a smear campaign.
She said people with narcissistic traits often need to maintain their image of perfection
in order to keep earning admiration from others.
And to do this, they may try making you look bad.
And once you begin pointing out problems or questioning their behavior,
then they may lash out by openly directing their rage toward you with insults and threats,
Or here we go back into triangulation, involving others and criticizing you.
By telling stories to your loved ones that twist the facts about your harmful
or your unstable behavior, the narcissist tries to discredit you.
And even worse, when you then act or react angrily, because who wouldn't if you're being accused
of these things that you know to be false or you believe are false,
then they use your response, you getting frustrated or upset to back up their lies.
She said people with narcissism often have a knack for charming others.
That persona that they showed you in the beginning, that everybody else still gets to see that
on a day-to-day basis.
So then they can often win support from your loved ones who haven't seen through that facade
by insisting that they only have your best interest at heart.
And then when you try explaining the abuse, and your loved ones might side with them.
She said that part of this narcissistic victim abuse is you feel isolated.
She said if your loved ones don't understand, you'll likely feel pretty alone, which only
increases your vulnerability to further narcissistic manipulation.
Because then the person that's abusing you may pull you back in with kindness or even
apologies or pretending the abuse never happened.
And there's that cycle, that continued cycle of abuse.
So hoovering, as it's often called, tends to work better when you lack support.
You're more likely to doubt your perception of the abuse when you can't talk with anybody about it.
So if your loved ones reach out to say that you've made a mistake and they encourage you to give the abusive partner another chance,
then you might end up doing so to simply regain your closeness with your family and friends.
Because one of the most difficult things is that person that continues to go back into the trauma bond is that they may not have those skills from the factory to stand on their own.
And we are, again, I love the phrase, where we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human,
but it's another emotionally mature human being, not someone that's going to take advantage of or manipulate you
and the things that you hope to connect on.
She talks about one of the signs that you freeze up. People respond to abuse and other trauma in so many different ways
that you might attempt to confront the abusive person, which is the fight, or escape the situation, which is flight.
And if these methods don't work, you may feel unable to use them and you might respond over time,
especially by freezing or fawning, and that freeze response usually happens when you feel helpless.
And it often involves almost this feeling of disassociation because you're trying to emotionally distance yourself from the abuse.
And often you don't feel like you can even leave that freeze response.
You may just be batting down the hatches internally and waiting for this emotional storm to end.
And so when you distance yourself from the abuse, it will help decrease its intensity and in essence, effectively numbing some of that pain and distress that you experience.
She goes on to talk about freezing can have some benefits in certain situations, but it doesn't help when you can escape from danger.
But if you believe there's no way out of the relationship, then you might remain in it and perhaps even respond by fawning, which is working to keep your partner happy.
So we get that fight or flight. We've got the freeze. Then we have the fawn. The fawning is where it's so, yeah, you're right.
But just to try to get out of that that uncomfortable moment.
Here's the stuff that I start seeing as a therapist. She talks about one of the results of this narcissistic victim abuse is you have trouble making decisions.
She said a pattern of devaluation and criticism can leave you with very little self-esteem and confidence.
This narcissistic manipulation often involves frequent implications that you make bad decisions and you can't do anything right,
And aren't you glad that you have that narcissist in your life?
So an abusive partner may call you stupid or ignorant outright or often with a falsely affectionate tone.
Honey, you're just so dumb. How would you manage without my help? I don't even know how you'd make it through a day.
And over time, you might start absorbing these insults and attaching them to your self-perception
and then constantly second-guess yourself as a result. And unfortunately, I see that in my office so often where people even say,
I don't know. I don't even know if I'm making any sense. I don't know if I'm right.
I don't know what the right thing to do is.
Because these gaslighting tactics can also make you doubt your decision-making abilities.
So if somebody is manipulating you into believing that you imagine things that actually took place, you might continue doubting your perception of events.
And then this uncertainty can affect your ability to make decisions well into the future.
And I want you to, even if you're doing this on the inside, start recognizing how you feel, what you think.
And we want to get to this place where you eventually will start trusting your gut.
We want to operate from that place of trusting your gut. In emotionally healthy and mature relationships, that's where we start.
I may have my opinion, but my wife is certainly going to have her opinion.
And I want to say, tell me more. What's that like? Because we're in this together.
It's this edification. One plus one is three.
Not one person is right. Therefore, the other one must be wrong.
She said one of the other traits of this narcissistic victim abuse is you always
feel like you've done something wrong.
This key characteristic of narcissism is difficulty taking responsibility for any
negative actions or harmful behaviors.
If your partner literally doesn't say, I'm sorry, hasn't said I'm sorry, or that's
the one of the narcissistic apologies of, okay, fine, I guess I'm sorry, but then you are going to feel like you're the one that has done things wrong. And so often the pathologically kind person will then apologize in hopes that they are modeling behavior to their spouse. I was saying, you know, I, yeah, I, you know what, I am sorry about what I said or how I showed up and hoping that the, even the spouse at that point will say, you know what, I'm sorry too, but not, okay, good. I'm glad you are acknowledging that.
So this abuse of partners typically find some way to cast blame on you,
and they might accomplish this through deceit. And she gives a couple of examples,
often by insisting that they said something that you have no recollection of,
or getting so angry that you end up soothing them by apologizing and agreeing that you were wrong.
And so often, again, this is just to get out of the discomfort of the moment.
Unfortunately, a narcissist can just be so fascinating that they can either sit with
this incredible discomfort of things like the silent treatment until then you finally break,
or they can't sit with a millisecond of discomfort and that's where they have to then get angry or take the complete victim stance.
She said, say you suspect that your spouse or your narcissistic partner has cheated on you,
and you explain the concerning behaviors that you've noticed and asked if something's going on.
A partner using narcissistic manipulation might respond with extreme anger.
They may respond with accusations of their own, redirect the blame, saying that these things that are intended to hurt and belittle you
so that then the focus is off of them.
So these barrages of rage can leave you feeling helpless, independent, and grateful that they're willing to remain with somebody who makes so many mistakes.
So then even after leaving the relationship, you might carry forward the belief that you can't do anything right.
That when things go wrong or in other areas of your life, that you might start to blame yourself for causing those problems.
I appreciate that she also brought up that one of the traits of this narcissistic victim abuse is you have unexplained physical symptoms.
And we talk so much about The Body Keeps the Score, Bessel van der Kolk's amazing book.
But you'll find that when people are starting to just lose themselves that they will often
have a lot of aches, a lot of pains, a lot of everything from fibromyalgia, chronic pain,
irritable bowel syndrome, back aches, neck aches, hypertension, you name it.
There are so many things.
There's chronic fatigue or why am I drawing a blank on migraines? There we go.
But she says that abuse can trigger anxious and nervous feelings that sometimes lead to
physical symptoms. You might notice appetite changes, upset stomach or nausea, stomach pain, and other gastrointestinal
stress, muscle aches and pains, insomnia, fatigue.
And she said using alcohol and other substances can sometimes seem like a helpful way to manage these symptoms, especially insomnia.
So then as a result, you end up consuming more than you'd like in an effort to manage these unwanted feelings of physical distress.
And now you have this co-occurring situation where you are, I mean, I've worked with people that are drinking heavily, they're turning to their smoking pot,
they're doing these things to just try to tune out of life because they just feel so off, so imbalanced.
Which leads to another form of another symptom of narcissistic abuse is you feel restless and unsettled.
Because she said it's so unpredictable. You may not know whether they're going to criticize you or surprise you with a gift.
And if you don't want some if you don't really feel like there is consistency or know what someone will do or say at any given moment,
you may start to develop a lot of tension from needing to regularly prepare yourself to face conflict.
And there's almost this just insane tension. And then there's this feeling of relief, but over time that relief when they aren't being mean, starts to just become flat.
This flat affect or this feeling of what's called this anhedonia, which said worries about the constant stream of criticism and how to best handle the abusive behaviors that you're beginning to recognize,
constantly leave you on edge and you may not even know how to relax anymore since you might not feel safe letting your guard down.
And I think that's one of the difficult things is people start having trouble with things like sleep and sleep is where you reset those cortisol levels in the brain.
And so even if you're just having these fits and spurts of sleep off and on and then you're hitting the next day and your brain hasn't fully had a chance to recuperate and to flush out the bad things from the day before,
before, then it's as if your baseline of cortisol or this stress hormone, the
stress drug in your brain is operating from a higher baseline. So then you may
just snap or respond. You have a very small runway until you're at that place where you just feel like you are gonna lose your mind. So she said you
don't recognize yourself. When facing abuse, many people eventually adjust their self-identity to accommodate the abusive partner. So she said, say your
partner insists that when you go out with your friends you're telling me that
you don't love me, you'd rather see them instead.
She says, of course you love them, so you stop going out with your friends.
Next, you give up your hobbies.
You skip after work happy hour with coworkers. Eventually, you cancel your weekly visit with your sister.
You spend time doing what your partner wants to do so that they really will feel like you do care.
So then she says, these changes often lead to a loss of your sense of self,
which can leave you feeling lost and empty.
You might have a hard time enjoying life and losing sight of your sense and your purpose.
And that's the situation where in healthy relationships, people both are enjoying a vibrant version of life.
And then we are coming together with curiosity, we're having shared experiences,
and it's all part of the maturation process.
That of course we're gonna have relationships with other people that are healthy,
that are empowering, that are emboldening, that are helping us raise our own emotional baseline.
And our spouses are saying, tell me more. What's that like? What are you learning?
And then how can we create meaning shared experience together.
She said that you have trouble setting boundaries. This is such a big one. Someone engaging in narcissistic abuse often has little respect for boundaries.
And so when you try to set or enforce limits, they might challenge them, completely ignore them, or even give the silent treatment until you do what they want. Eventually, you might give up on your boundaries.
And once you end a relationship or you get distanced from a narcissistic parent, for example, you promise yourself that you will not answer their calls and texts or you won't see them at all.
But if they know that they can eventually wear you down though, then they may not let you go easily.
Instead, they'll keep calling, they'll text in hopes of getting you to set aside those boundaries again.
Because this is like saying a boundary, unfortunately, in the world of narcissism is a challenge.
It's almost as if you are handing the narcissist some food. Here, here you go, here's my boundary.
And as you can just run right through it or devour it, then it gives them more power of,
okay, see, you don't even understand yourself because you try to hold these adorable little boundaries, but I know best.
And so if you've experienced that narcissistic abuse, you might also have trouble setting healthy boundaries
in your relationships with others.
And here's kind of wrapping things up, we get back to that concepts around anxiety,
is that she said that this narcissistic abuse can lead to these symptoms of anxiety and depression,
that anxiety and depression can commonly develop as a result of this narcissistic abuse.
So the significant stress that you face can trigger these persistent feelings of worry,
nervousness, and fear, especially when you never know what to expect
from the behavior of the emotionally abusive,
the emotionally immature.
You might feel hopeless, you might feel worthless, you might lose interest in things
that used to bring you joy, and you have a hard time seeing a hopeful outcome for the future.
And I would just wanna say in that moment that your brain, again, is this don't get killed device,
and it's trying to just manage, and it's trying to manage relationships and situations.
And so when you start to notice that you are losing just any joy in your life, I don't believe
that it is your brain saying, okay, let's shut it all down, but your brain wants to live.
And so it is telling you, okay, I'm trying to use anxiety for good, I'm trying to make you aware.
And if that isn't working, then let's, they may turn, your brain might turn
to a little bit of depression and say, okay, let's sit this one out because you going in there
is not making you feel better.
Going in there, meaning interacting with this emotionally abusive person.
And at some point, I think your body, your brain is trying to tell you,
hey, do something. Help me out here. I feel like even the manifestations of pain from these,
emotional situations when the body then takes that emotional pain and then almost as if it
transfigures it to physical pain is saying, okay, you're not dealing with the emotional pain. Maybe,
if I give you this physical pain, then you'll take care of it. You'll address it. Because your body
doesn't want you to be emotionally abused. It doesn't want you to shut down.
It wants you to live. It wants you to find your sense of self, your sense of
purpose, and so that you can just be, be in the world and just enjoy and just let
your light so shine and lift others around you and all those wonderful things. So if you find that you are overly anxious trying to predict what
can happen next or if you find that you are depressed and just continually wanting to sit this one out, then I really believe that that is your body
saying, hey, this is hard and I want you to do something to take care of yourself.
She said it's also common to have a lot of confusion over what caused them to
change so abruptly, especially if you don't know much about narcissistic manipulation. This is part of those popcorn moments where if the narcissist
can then find whatever button works, if all of a sudden they push you too far,
you withdraw and then they come back and love bomb. Well, whatever works. If that
doesn't work, now they may even go with the push new buttons. Now go back to
that you're a horrible person or you're an unfit father or mother.
And so it's a continual just battle to find the right buttons to get you back
into enmeshment. She said, you might even shoulder the blame for the abuse,
perhaps believing their accusations that you must not care about them enough or
blame yourself for falling for their deception in the first place,
but either can add to feelings of worthlessness and further diminish your self-esteem. So what do you do? How do you find help?
Any kind of abuse can take a real toll on your mental and physical health.
And her article crystal said if your loved ones still doubt you or tell you to just move on you may feel unheard and unsupported,
So a lot of the basis around the entire waking up the narcissism podcast is that
When you start feeling these things hearing these things that when you talk to somebody and if they if they are not being a Switzerland
Friend they may just say well just get out right now, but I know it's not that easy and you still for.
Most of the time want to determine okay, but is it me that that's one of the number one questions
I get, but is it me? And what would it look like if I change?
She said if your loved ones again still doubt you or just tell you to move on, you feel unheard and unsupported,
that can make it really hard to trust people again, leaving you feeling isolated and alone.
So whether you're just beginning to notice the first signs of narcissistic manipulation
or still trying to make sense of an abusive relationship that you maybe even already left,
then therapy can really help you begin healing.
And she said therapy offers this safe place to learn coping strategies, to manage mental health symptoms,
practice setting healthy boundaries, explore ways to rebuild your sense of self.
But it's really important to find a therapist who specializes in abuse recovery because that can validate your experience, it can help you understand that you aren't at fault and offer support through these early stages of recovery.
So it's important to get help and there are, you can get emergency support 24 hours a day, 7 days a week from the National Domestic Violence Hotline.
There you can text LOVEIS to 866-331-9474. You can call 1-800-799-7233. This is again the National Domestic Violence Hotline or they even have an online chat available.
But one of the most important things that you can do is start to find help. And that might even be just a phase of you starting to listen to more podcasts and watch more YouTube videos and read more books.
And that is being you're on the path of awareness of the light enlightenment.
You didn't know what you didn't know and now you're starting to learn.
You're starting to learn more about what what is happening in your life,
but it's still gonna be really hard to do anything about it and just know that
that's a really difficult place to be but it's a real normal place to be and.
Eventually you're going to have more of a path of knowing what to do and you'll
do it more than you don't and eventually you're going to become you're going
to become this person that now is aware is helping yourself helping others,
which is eventually going to help your family, your kids, those around you.
And boy, I see you and I know that it's hard to be on this path or this journey,
but just know that I'm glad you're on the path.
And I'm not just going to drop the old, well, at least you're on the path,
because that might feel invalidating, but I'm grateful that you're on the path.
So reach out if you have additional questions, comments, share this with somebody, if you think it'll help.
You can contact me at contact at Tony Overbay dot com or through whatever the various social media platforms are as well.
And hang in there. Again, I see you, I know the work you're doing,
and I'll see you next week on Waking Up To Nerd.
Music.