WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.440 Music. 00:00:07.435 --> 00:00:12.005 Welcome to episode 66 of Waking Up To Narcissism. I am your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed 00:00:12.005 --> 00:00:16.186 marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch podcast, as well as a few others. 00:00:16.330 --> 00:00:21.925 Murder on the Couch, True Crime Meets Therapy, which maybe by the time you hear this, it is 00:00:21.925 --> 00:00:27.240 being queued up and ready to be released. And the best way to find out what is coming next is please 00:00:27.365 --> 00:00:32.165 sign up for my newsletter. If you go to the show notes, there's a Linktree link that will say 00:00:32.165 --> 00:00:38.245 link.tree something like that slash virtual couch and sign up for the newsletter and you can also 00:00:38.245 --> 00:00:43.205 send me questions. I've been told that there might be a little bit of a challenge with the 00:00:43.205 --> 00:00:48.965 contact form but if so just send me an email at contact at tonyoverbay.com and I want to know 00:00:48.965 --> 00:00:53.617 your questions, I want your stories, I want some poetry. We're going to talk about that today. 00:00:53.995 --> 00:00:58.885 And I also want to encourage you to look in the show notes as well and find the waking up to 00:00:58.885 --> 00:01:04.205 narcissism premium question and answer podcast. It's $4.99 a month and those 00:01:04.205 --> 00:01:12.965 proceeds do go to help people that are that are dealing with emotionally immature narcissistic relationships. Everything from paying for some therapy, 00:01:12.965 --> 00:01:17.965 courses, programs. Hopefully if the fund can grow to be able to help people with 00:01:17.965 --> 00:01:21.245 everything from legal expenses and moving costs because a lot of times that 00:01:21.380 --> 00:01:29.765 that financial abuse is one of the things that keeps people in unhealthy relationships and it is an absolute form of control and that's some of the things 00:01:29.765 --> 00:01:39.885 that they just it break my heart. So today we're gonna talk about a difference between rules and cuts and at the time of this recording I still for 00:01:39.885 --> 00:01:45.525 the life of me want to find some sort of creative title. So if you are listening 00:01:45.525 --> 00:01:50.085 to this you have already seen what the title of the the episode will be and you 00:01:50.085 --> 00:01:54.885 will know if I finally just said forget it rules versus cuts or if I came up 00:01:54.885 --> 00:01:59.442 with some clever something around commandments of narcissism or something to that effect. 00:02:00.054 --> 00:02:05.045 But when we're talking about rules versus cuts, and you'll get some examples of that, 00:02:05.045 --> 00:02:08.192 a lot of examples of that today from the Private Women's Facebook group. 00:02:08.865 --> 00:02:11.559 But there's a poem that I wanna read first. 00:02:11.845 --> 00:02:15.799 And there's a thread in the group that is, it's amazing, it's beautiful, 00:02:16.145 --> 00:02:20.993 where a lot of people will share poetry, so I just asked if maybe we could put everything in one place. 00:02:21.385 --> 00:02:28.045 And so I really feel like this poem, it just encapsulates and captures what those cuts do 00:02:28.045 --> 00:02:28.965 or what those are like. 00:02:28.965 --> 00:02:35.805 And then I think that will then help us frame what the rules feel like when you are in these narcissistic 00:02:35.805 --> 00:02:37.701 or emotionally immature relationships, 00:02:38.088 --> 00:02:41.581 especially when you wake up to the fact that it's okay for you to have your own opinion 00:02:41.965 --> 00:02:45.965 and a little foreshadowing things like a toothpaste tube, 00:02:46.505 --> 00:02:50.800 does not always have to have a flip top, that it can have a turning top as well. 00:02:51.178 --> 00:02:55.409 And that does not make you a horrible human being if you like one versus the other. 00:02:56.245 --> 00:03:00.465 So let me start with this poem, and let me get a joke out of the way first 00:03:00.465 --> 00:03:02.245 because I think this is, it's a beautiful poem. 00:03:02.245 --> 00:03:03.466 I think it's touching. 00:03:03.565 --> 00:03:06.860 People in the group talked about how it really brought a lot of big emotions out. 00:03:07.895 --> 00:03:25.656 I was talking with someone else about poetry and the narcissist in their life, and they just, we were making a lighthearted comment about the fact that this person never appreciated the client that was in my office's poetry because it didn't rhyme, and poetry is okay to not rhyme. 00:03:26.259 --> 00:03:30.319 So this does not rhyme, and it is, it's powerful nonetheless. 00:03:30.995 --> 00:03:37.705 So, let me read this. Author unknown because I want to keep that confidential, but there 00:03:37.705 --> 00:03:41.345 are a lot of poems in the group that I want to read over the coming weeks, so we'll do 00:03:41.345 --> 00:03:47.545 that as well. So, it says, I'm lost in your fears. They twist and turn, winding this way 00:03:47.545 --> 00:03:53.185 and that, then back again. An infinite circle. The lies slide like vines over the forest 00:03:53.185 --> 00:03:58.945 floor. I trip over the rocks of blame that you throw at my feet. I get peaks of sunlight, 00:03:58.945 --> 00:04:00.108 but catch only glimpses. 00:04:00.585 --> 00:04:04.015 The thick branches and leaves shroud the light and crowd the path. 00:04:04.465 --> 00:04:10.037 I find myself crouching lower and lower, taking up less space to make room for your ego. 00:04:10.685 --> 00:04:15.565 The night is drawing, but now I see the stars. They are my hopes and dreams. 00:04:16.065 --> 00:04:20.498 It surprised me when I learned the opposite of love is not hate, but fear. 00:04:21.065 --> 00:04:23.361 And the more I love, the less I fear. 00:04:23.945 --> 00:04:29.815 I no longer hack away desperately at your fears. I trace them, and I see them for what they are. 00:04:30.185 --> 00:04:34.245 Fear of showing yourself because who you are might not be good enough. 00:04:34.985 --> 00:04:40.006 Fear of owning your choices because if you do, you'd have to accept the consequences. 00:04:40.665 --> 00:04:45.200 Fear of taking off your mask because being vulnerable can leave you open for hurt. 00:04:45.825 --> 00:04:50.044 Fear of being wrong because being right gives you a false sense of worth. 00:04:50.865 --> 00:04:54.140 The more I love and respect myself, the more clearly I see you. 00:04:54.765 --> 00:04:58.785 Your fears are not for me to hack away. I loosen my grip and climb. 00:04:59.465 --> 00:05:03.961 My view of this forest path has changed. Where it leads, I do not know. 00:05:04.385 --> 00:05:08.939 I look around and notice the air is thin up here and I'm afraid of heights. 00:05:09.265 --> 00:05:13.386 But here, my wings can grow and the light of truth heals me. 00:05:14.845 --> 00:05:22.225 It's beautiful. It really is and talks about just what it feels like to trip over someone else's ego 00:05:22.225 --> 00:05:23.820 and to find yourself being small. 00:05:24.365 --> 00:05:28.654 And I just, I love that analogy of climbing up to the top of the trees. 00:05:28.885 --> 00:05:34.884 And sure, it's gonna be scary and you're afraid of heights, but ultimately that is the place where you'll grow. 00:05:35.165 --> 00:05:39.645 So I'm just really, I appreciate people that have creative talents like that. 00:05:39.645 --> 00:05:45.205 I feel like that poem says more in about two minutes than I'm gonna try to communicate to you 00:05:45.205 --> 00:05:49.325 in the next 30 or 40 minutes with just trying to make sense of things 00:05:49.325 --> 00:05:50.458 that really just don't make sense. 00:05:51.045 --> 00:05:57.462 So on that note, there was a post that just, I thought it was a short post that then just ended up. 00:05:58.479 --> 00:06:08.966 Bring so much so much content in the group one of the members of the group said even though i've been out for almost two years i find it amazing how many rules i still catch myself following. 00:06:09.507 --> 00:06:20.714 Tony talks about death by a thousand cuts but i feel like i've had to live by a thousand rules i can see it's gonna take a long time to figure out what are truly my own choices instead of old programming. 00:06:21.137 --> 00:06:27.295 And then she said, anybody else struggle with this? Which I can guess everybody that is in this situation struggles with this. 00:06:27.849 --> 00:06:30.709 And a couple people commented and said they've been out for a year and it's amazing 00:06:30.709 --> 00:06:32.885 how far they've come, but how many rules they still think about. 00:06:33.689 --> 00:06:37.405 And somebody said, and not feel anxious while you're doing a specific task. 00:06:37.989 --> 00:06:40.809 And the person commenting there said that they were still in the relationship, 00:06:40.809 --> 00:06:45.329 so they don't really, they weren't necessarily thinking in terms of looking at the rules 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:48.567 that they were now trying to, I don't know, unattach from. 00:06:48.929 --> 00:06:53.249 So someone else just said that so many rules and that they were introduced so passive-aggressively 00:06:53.249 --> 00:06:55.985 that it's hard to even remember, she said, when we started following the rules. 00:06:56.169 --> 00:07:00.225 And she said she had been separated for almost two years and she was currently going through a divorce, 00:07:00.769 --> 00:07:04.929 but she said she was getting better at catching them now and slowly working to undo each rule one by one, 00:07:04.929 --> 00:07:06.149 but that can be really exhausting. 00:07:06.769 --> 00:07:08.929 And she says, I just asked myself, how do I wanna handle this? 00:07:08.929 --> 00:07:11.028 What works for me and do I really care about this? 00:07:11.689 --> 00:07:16.429 And someone else chimed in and said that sometimes they feel like they need to ask for their spouse's input 00:07:16.429 --> 00:07:21.597 on things as if they're not intelligent enough decide for themselves and I almost feel like that's where I want to jump in and 00:07:21.669 --> 00:07:25.689 say you're an adult you've been getting along well up to this point in your 00:07:25.689 --> 00:07:30.529 life and so it's okay for you to like the things you like and do things the 00:07:30.529 --> 00:07:35.489 way that you would like to do them and what can sound so probably off-putting 00:07:35.489 --> 00:07:40.849 to the pathologically kind person is it feels like well but then I'm just saying 00:07:40.849 --> 00:07:45.129 that well we're gonna do it my way and and I think that's a really good point 00:07:44.354 --> 00:07:52.691 There's really, there's middle ground. I don't want to just immediately go to this concept of compromise because I think that's what our brain wants to do to try to make sense of what that would look like. 00:07:53.141 --> 00:08:01.000 And sometimes we feel like, okay, well, I know what compromise is going to look like, he's going to get his way, so I might as well just acquiesce and give in, and it's not that bad anyway. 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:11.046 But it's okay to have a conversation around, well, we'll get there with some of these examples, but honest to goodness, toothpaste lids, you're going to hear some really interesting ones today, 00:08:11.316 --> 00:08:20.057 Where the more emotionally immature or narcissistic person just says this is how it works and and the everybody knows is not an answer. 00:08:20.553 --> 00:08:27.619 Yes i will give this example until the cows come home that i still remember someone talking about the concept of common sense. 00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:37.099 And then i bring up the example of in some countries where a baby sneezes and an apparent immediately puts their mouth around that nose and sucks up and spits out. 00:08:37.684 --> 00:08:41.544 And that's common sense to that person. And then to somebody else, 00:08:41.861 --> 00:08:44.868 that might be the most disgusting thing they've ever heard of, and why don't they use a tissue? 00:08:45.704 --> 00:08:51.344 Yet then for another person, using a tissue just seems crazy because why am I wasting tissue paper? 00:08:51.344 --> 00:08:54.761 Or, and I'm gonna get it all on my face and I'm gonna walk around. 00:08:55.084 --> 00:08:59.984 So it's just, let's just look at the way that people do things and why they like doing them 00:08:59.984 --> 00:09:04.610 the way they do, and if we start from there, now we're gonna actually have adult mature conversations. 00:09:05.304 --> 00:09:08.661 Love or control? not both in an adult relationship. 00:09:09.417 --> 00:09:28.178 So to the original poster I had said once again you're creating content for me and for the world and I just said that anybody seeing this post let's talk about rules and I just said can you share the rules that you heard and I feel like okay we've got death by a thousand cuts but I don't know control by a thousand rules but I really feel like this is something that will resonate. 00:09:28.790 --> 00:09:32.733 So the first person that chimed in with a lot of rules she said here are a few rules off the top of my head. 00:09:33.381 --> 00:09:35.712 Protein is the cornerstone of every meal and must be present. 00:09:36.235 --> 00:09:39.867 So you can see already where we're going to go. That this is something that is being preached and told. 00:09:39.867 --> 00:09:44.867 And while there may be some truth in some of the rules, we're open to interpretation. 00:09:44.867 --> 00:09:47.867 And I know my wife and I talk about this so often. 00:09:48.154 --> 00:09:51.867 Let's just take this one for example. Protein as the staple of every meal. 00:09:51.998 --> 00:09:56.634 And then who's to say that in a few years we'll find out that the nation is over-proteined. 00:09:57.192 --> 00:10:04.187 So being able to make an informed decision is wonderful. and being able to also have your choice in that decision 00:10:04.187 --> 00:10:05.420 is a powerful thing as well. 00:10:06.635 --> 00:10:08.751 So back to her rules. She said here are the rules that she had heard. 00:10:09.147 --> 00:10:11.082 Again, protein, cornerstone of every meal must be present. 00:10:11.587 --> 00:10:15.250 If meat wasn't highly visible, it was a constant barrage of complaints and questions. 00:10:15.587 --> 00:10:17.789 Is there meat in this? Where's the meat? I can't taste the meat. 00:10:18.407 --> 00:10:21.667 Now to someone that is on a plant-based diet, then if they are hearing that, 00:10:21.667 --> 00:10:24.649 sometimes the word meat can literally give a visceral reaction, 00:10:25.307 --> 00:10:29.087 but then to the person who is saying where's the meat, then they are going to say 00:10:29.087 --> 00:10:31.500 that the person on a plant-based diet doesn't know what they're talking about. 00:10:32.027 --> 00:10:33.813 So we can have different opinions. 00:10:34.427 --> 00:10:39.027 And here's the one I've alluded to two times already. All toothpaste must have a screw-on cap 00:10:39.027 --> 00:10:40.889 instead of a flip cap regardless of brand. 00:10:41.367 --> 00:10:45.707 Rationalized by flip caps are messier. If I did happen to buy a flip cap, 00:10:45.707 --> 00:10:48.316 then I would hear comments about it almost daily until it was gone. 00:10:48.747 --> 00:10:52.667 And I understand that unfortunately that's the relationship that some people are in 00:10:52.667 --> 00:10:58.167 where they feel like, you know, it's not a big deal. I'll get the screw cap or whatever that looks like. 00:10:59.056 --> 00:11:03.260 But we're back to that death by a thousand cuts vibe or control by a thousand rules. 00:11:03.527 --> 00:11:06.293 She said next, we don't waste food in this house. There's the rule. 00:11:06.527 --> 00:11:10.695 If I needed to throw away rotted, expired or moldy food, I had to justify and defend it. 00:11:11.247 --> 00:11:13.531 So much so that I struggled to throw anything away. 00:11:14.347 --> 00:11:19.086 She said he would also go through the trash to make sure I wasn't throwing things away without him knowing. 00:11:19.767 --> 00:11:26.305 So apparently it was very important for him to be the throwaway police or the wasted food police 00:11:26.687 --> 00:11:32.265 or fill in the blank. Which if we go back to control, I think it's pretty obvious that that's what we're hearing. 00:11:33.012 --> 00:11:43.248 She said, if I didn't wear a certain color nail polish, or I didn't wear a certain nail polish color for over 10 years because he doesn't like that color, but she said, no rhyme or reason. 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:50.422 He was also very rigid about my hair length, our kids hair length. I had to tell him after the fact if I was getting even a single trim on my hair. 00:11:51.161 --> 00:11:56.193 Otherwise, I had to promise not to cut too much because the kids needed to have certain lengths of hair. 00:11:56.850 --> 00:12:00.382 She said the bed must be made at all times, unless being slept in, of course. 00:12:00.382 --> 00:12:02.862 And so if some of you are saying, okay, well, it sounds reasonable. 00:12:02.862 --> 00:12:07.142 But then she goes on to say, this was hard to navigate because even washing the sheets was difficult 00:12:07.142 --> 00:12:11.227 because if he came home to no sheets on the bed, because they were being washed, he would panic 00:12:11.582 --> 00:12:13.009 and I would hear about it for the rest of the night. 00:12:13.742 --> 00:12:16.817 Another common one, if dad is working, then everybody is working. 00:12:16.922 --> 00:12:21.057 She said, this is present both in my childhood home and my home with my husband. 00:12:21.462 --> 00:12:24.182 If dad was doing chores, then everyone else had better be doing chores. 00:12:24.182 --> 00:12:27.305 But she said, the thing is the distribution of work was already highly imbalanced. 00:12:27.782 --> 00:12:31.342 The rest of us did chores on a regular basis while dad did them when and if convenient 00:12:31.342 --> 00:12:32.301 and only sporadically. 00:12:32.822 --> 00:12:37.342 So when it came to making plans for the holidays, his family came first because he had very close siblings 00:12:37.342 --> 00:12:38.477 and siblings cannot be apart. 00:12:39.262 --> 00:12:42.375 Or she said another one, the kids had to read for 30 minutes every night. 00:12:42.782 --> 00:12:47.290 And again, here's where I think that there's a tie-in with death by 1000 cuts along with these rules 00:12:47.382 --> 00:12:49.243 because somebody will say, well, it doesn't sound so bad. 00:12:49.682 --> 00:12:52.982 But she said this one was clever because it was hidden behind sound guidance 00:12:52.982 --> 00:12:57.048 for raising kids. reading is good, but he would only allow them to read his books. 00:12:57.702 --> 00:13:01.162 She said the kids were little, at some point kindergarten or first grade, 00:13:01.162 --> 00:13:04.673 and they were expected to read Tom Sawyer, Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. 00:13:05.302 --> 00:13:09.742 So she said her kids grew to really hate it, and it was like, she said, World War III 00:13:09.742 --> 00:13:12.118 to get them to compromise because it was all about control. 00:13:12.822 --> 00:13:16.822 And I think one of the unfortunate things is that this is a point where I would be curious 00:13:16.822 --> 00:13:19.680 to know what their relationship is with reading at this point in their lives. 00:13:20.482 --> 00:13:24.922 She said, I had to be ready for physical intimacy at his request, it wasn't always granted, 00:13:24.922 --> 00:13:28.412 but it was an expectation met with pouting in the silent treatment if I said no. 00:13:29.182 --> 00:13:32.382 She said the kids were only allowed to have dessert on Tuesdays and Fridays. 00:13:32.382 --> 00:13:34.982 And I hear versions of this one often and I think it's so interesting. 00:13:34.982 --> 00:13:40.394 So let me dig a little deeper here. So again, kids were only allowed to have dessert on Tuesdays and Fridays, 00:13:40.802 --> 00:13:44.542 but she said it was so rigid in his mind that if someone's birthday was on a day of the week 00:13:44.542 --> 00:13:49.234 that was not on treat day, then it was a battle to get him to be flexible on having birthday cake. 00:13:49.742 --> 00:13:54.024 And she said the same goes for any holidays. If he did compromise, it became about a trade. 00:13:54.502 --> 00:13:58.381 This is where I wanted to get into this. Fine, he said, I'll allow birthday cake on Wednesday, 00:13:58.862 --> 00:14:00.766 but that means no dessert for the rest of the week. 00:14:01.162 --> 00:14:03.584 She said, I had to fight that battle many times. 00:14:04.382 --> 00:14:10.426 So if you're here, I imagine a lot of the people that are listening to this content have similar experiences. 00:14:11.002 --> 00:14:15.242 And if you're someone listening to it, and these are the rules that you give someone, 00:14:15.342 --> 00:14:16.808 and if you're saying, well, right, 00:14:16.942 --> 00:14:20.724 but now is the time, Welcome to the world of self-confrontation. 00:14:21.517 --> 00:14:40.727 So, if you are saying, but everybody knows, but this is the best way, then I'm grateful that you have found a best way for you, and if you think to yourself, well, it just makes sense to you, or everybody knows, well, I think I could probably question, I don't know if I was asked, so I know that it's probably not everybody. 00:14:41.276 --> 00:15:01.036 I know I'm being a little facetious, but I want the people hearing this, that if you're one who has been living by these thousand or two thousand rules, to know that I just even, this is where I just want to bring that awareness that that's not healthy in a relationship, that relationships are built upon, tell me more, curiosity, what's your experience, what matters to you. 00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:07.307 And then eventually we work toward a compromise. And I stumble over the word compromise so often 00:15:07.307 --> 00:15:12.127 because there are so many steps of communication that need to be had before we get to compromise. 00:15:12.527 --> 00:15:17.286 I understand compromise in a business setting is it's this art of war, negotiation, compromise. 00:15:17.727 --> 00:15:22.372 And in that point, I think often, if people are being, I think, real with themselves, 00:15:22.847 --> 00:15:28.835 in a business setting, that the compromise is that they win if they get more out of the deal. 00:15:29.412 --> 00:15:33.481 But I know there's also this belief that both people want to walk away and feel like they win, 00:15:33.827 --> 00:15:37.247 and I think there's psychology around that too. Maybe we have to confabulate a narrative 00:15:37.247 --> 00:15:38.918 that says, oh yeah, this is exactly what I wanted. 00:15:39.447 --> 00:15:44.087 But in adult human relationships, I'm feeling like I want to say, 00:15:44.087 --> 00:15:50.467 I will grant the concept of compromise and negotiation, but it needs to be from a very healthy place 00:15:50.467 --> 00:15:52.367 of tell me more, what's your experience? 00:15:52.367 --> 00:15:55.392 Because we'll find often that people don't really care about certain things. 00:15:55.967 --> 00:16:02.306 Or we'll find that people had completely different experiences growing up, which led to completely different experiences or expectations as an adult. 00:16:02.972 --> 00:16:10.487 And so we want to have a tool to communicate about these things before we try to work out what that's going to look like for our family. 00:16:10.487 --> 00:16:20.887 Because inevitably, the more alpha, the more dominant, the more direct, the more intense, that person is going to most likely get their needs met and then feel like, 00:16:20.887 --> 00:16:27.567 okay, good, we agree, because the kinder person, the more emotionally sensitive or pathologically kind 00:16:27.567 --> 00:16:33.139 or highly sensitive person is going to find themselves over and over again just acquiescing for the sake of, 00:16:33.607 --> 00:16:34.561 it's not worth the fight. 00:16:35.007 --> 00:16:39.962 But meanwhile, the message to the person that continually seems to get their way is that I'm right. 00:16:40.349 --> 00:16:45.535 But it's really, I am too controlling to really hear and understand my partner. 00:16:46.588 --> 00:16:54.204 Another person said that when I was married, I was told that we had to have sex at least every 48 hours to keep him satisfied so he wouldn't look for other avenues of relief. 00:16:54.744 --> 00:17:00.416 She said, I followed this for the first few years of our marriage. It didn't work. I had to learn that this was his issue and not mine to fix. 00:17:00.956 --> 00:17:11.947 And, you know, at times, I don't know why, but I feel like, I mean, I'm a marriage and family therapist. I've seen well over a thousand couples and a sex therapist talk about this all the time. 00:17:12.290 --> 00:17:25.424 But then I don't talk a lot about it on the podcast and I think I confessed it on one of the podcasts that for some reason I still imagine that a mom is playing this while the kids are in the van and all of a sudden I'm talking about trying to do these code words around intimacy. 00:17:25.775 --> 00:17:39.404 When in reality, this is one that I think is very, very poignant and timely and that I hear on a regular basis that is not what I hear in emotionally healthy relationships and that is the fact that from a guy saying to his wife, what am I supposed to do? 00:17:39.620 --> 00:17:44.572 Do you know how bad it hurts down there if I don't have a release every 48 hours or 72 hours 00:17:44.743 --> 00:17:48.938 And then a guy will then be in actual visceral, I mean, just pain. 00:17:48.938 --> 00:17:50.558 Oh my gosh, you have to relieve me. 00:17:51.161 --> 00:17:58.511 And I worry, and I feel confident that that is just really an unhealthy way for somebody to get rid of their discomfort. 00:17:58.511 --> 00:18:03.828 The discomfort is that they would like to have sex. They would like friction on their genitalia, quite frankly. 00:18:03.971 --> 00:18:08.419 I feel like that is not saying, I desire a deep connection. I desire an emotional connection. 00:18:08.815 --> 00:18:14.211 We are not working up the ladders of intimacy. There is not verbal intimacy. 00:18:14.211 --> 00:18:18.429 We talk, we just have this deep connection, which leads to emotional intimacy. 00:18:18.825 --> 00:18:23.525 Now, I feel like we can open up and talk about anything, which above that is cognitive and intellectual intimacy. 00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:38.611 This is where I like to say that one person can have their PhD and the other their GED, but we're so connected verbally and emotionally that we're even having conversations about things that we absolutely know that the other person doesn't know, but there's so much curiosity there because there's mutual respect. 00:18:38.611 --> 00:18:51.611 And up above that one is spiritual intimacy. So at that point, if we're connected verbally and emotionally, cognitive, intellectually, then we can be in two completely different places from a spiritual place as well because we respect each other. 00:18:51.611 --> 00:19:00.611 And we are, of course, we have different opinions. And how fascinating is it that I can have this opportunity to connect with another human being that has such different experiences, but we care about each other. 00:19:00.611 --> 00:19:05.711 About each other and that is what leads to physical intimacy. It's a byproduct of 00:19:05.711 --> 00:19:11.831 those other levels of intimacy. So if a person is saying my nether regions are 00:19:11.831 --> 00:19:17.831 in pain so please relieve them for me by friction on my genitalia, we're kind of 00:19:17.831 --> 00:19:21.911 missing the boat. But then other times I want you to desire me and I want you to 00:19:21.911 --> 00:19:27.471 praise me and that is just it's just not a setup for any type of real consistency 00:19:27.471 --> 00:19:33.051 with a connection in the relationship. So she goes on to say other ones. She says, 00:19:33.051 --> 00:19:35.849 as a child I was not allowed to pursue new interests if I didn't show an. 00:19:35.912 --> 00:19:39.211 Aptitude for those interests. She said, for example, I really wanted to play 00:19:39.211 --> 00:19:42.771 soccer but I wasn't athletic so my dad only let me pursue art activities 00:19:42.771 --> 00:19:46.491 because I was creatively inclined. But she said, for many years I believe that 00:19:46.491 --> 00:19:50.811 exercise just wasn't for me because I wasn't athletic enough. Now right there 00:19:50.811 --> 00:19:56.171 you can probably see where this is going. So I would imagine that the dad in this 00:19:56.171 --> 00:20:01.011 scenario. He maybe didn't like seeing his kid out there not being the best because 00:20:01.011 --> 00:20:05.411 that would reflect on the dad as making it about him. But if the kid wants to 00:20:05.411 --> 00:20:09.805 play sports and wants to play soccer, then that sounds like a great idea. And. 00:20:10.255 --> 00:20:14.431 Let them be the ones that are gonna go and explore that and not live with this 00:20:14.431 --> 00:20:18.371 life of regret because they were unable to do the things that they wanted to do 00:20:18.371 --> 00:20:22.291 that they saw their friends doing as well. Because then how does that carry 00:20:22.291 --> 00:20:25.691 over into adulthood? Like she said, for many years I believe that exercise just 00:20:25.691 --> 00:20:28.491 wasn't for me because I wasn't athletic enough. She said I even tried to go out 00:20:28.491 --> 00:20:32.291 for track and my dad who happened to be a long-distance runner made me run a 00:20:32.291 --> 00:20:36.651 mile with him. She said when I had never run a mile before and then he told me 00:20:36.651 --> 00:20:40.629 see you can't do it so you probably wouldn't be very good or successful in track across country. 00:20:42.276 --> 00:20:47.867 Pause dramatically i think i need a sound effective record scratch at some point in every episode. 00:20:48.470 --> 00:21:02.892 Because so long distance running father says come with me child and run a mile for the first time number one look how easy was for me number two i be you number three i was probably even faster than you were your age number four see this isn't something for you. 00:21:04.035 --> 00:21:18.916 And it's insane. It really is. So then she said, yeah, she felt like she internalized that if I couldn't do something well or perfect, I should not pursue it at all. She said, I had to learn that mistakes and failing are just learning opportunities and not character flaws. 00:21:20.383 --> 00:21:26.586 So, if you are a parent that is not wanting your kid to do something, I would love for 00:21:26.586 --> 00:21:30.906 a quick self-check-in. Now, there are real things like financial burdens and issues, 00:21:30.906 --> 00:21:34.886 and I would say that if you're in a position where finances are an issue, then I would 00:21:34.886 --> 00:21:39.626 also look for other ways. There are often times that clubs and teams will have scholarship 00:21:39.626 --> 00:21:45.166 opportunities or there's the rec programs. And so, I feel like there's often a way to 00:21:45.166 --> 00:22:14.955 have someone be able to at least somewhat explore the opportunities that they would like to. But I do know that there are financial burdens. But if you don't want to take them because you are worried that they will not be good, that's a you thing. And if you are telling yourself, but I don't want them to do it because I don't want them to get picked on or bullied because kids are mean, which I understand that. But I will just say, go ahead and set a few bucks aside each month for therapy someday for the kid then to say, 00:22:15.351 --> 00:22:19.806 I was never even given a chance for the kids to bully me. I was never even given the opportunity 00:22:19.924 --> 00:22:23.363 to see if it was something that I liked. And I feel like that's one that I hear often. 00:22:24.794 --> 00:22:34.553 She said from her religious community that she said she's no longer a part of and she said and from her spouse when she was newly married, there was an expectation to be the ideal what she referred to as a Proverbs 31 wife. 00:22:34.644 --> 00:22:45.382 She said I was expected to take on all the home duties, the laundry, the cooking, the meal planning, the grocery shopping, the cleaning, the organizing, along with finances, bill paying, taxes, budgeting, because she said I was quote better at it. 00:22:46.166 --> 00:22:48.758 When in reality, she said, my spouse didn't know how to do it. 00:22:49.262 --> 00:22:53.684 And she also worked a full-time job where she commuted quite a bit each day, 00:22:54.331 --> 00:22:58.724 while her spouse was finishing school. His school, his degree, he would say, are 00:22:58.724 --> 00:23:05.684 far more important than sharing the duties. So, and at that point, she had already graduated with a degree. And she said, this set a precedent for the rest 00:23:05.684 --> 00:23:08.444 of our marriage in which I was expected to carry a lot of the household duties, 00:23:08.995 --> 00:23:16.144 on my own. She said, when we started having children, this included taking care of them and all that entailed. She said her opinion really wasn't asked 00:23:16.422 --> 00:23:20.824 after that point. She said he had to have the clothes he needed each day, I needed 00:23:20.824 --> 00:23:27.064 to have dinner on the table when he wanted. And she said I thought it was being a good wife. I was actually being used and abused while my spouse had a 00:23:27.064 --> 00:23:31.864 lot less stress than I had. And she said this made me susceptible to depression. 00:23:32.194 --> 00:23:36.944 She had sleep issues and reactive abuse. She said I internalized that his life, 00:23:37.370 --> 00:23:41.184 activities, and choices were the most important in our home. And she said and 00:23:41.184 --> 00:23:43.591 sent him the message that it was okay to ignore my needs. 00:23:44.024 --> 00:23:47.104 And she said, I've had to learn to recognize what my responsibilities truly are 00:23:47.104 --> 00:23:50.514 and ask for help when I need it and let go of the things that aren't that important. 00:23:51.297 --> 00:24:19.456 And let me just take a moment here. When she said, I internalized that his life activities and choices were the most important in our home, and I sent the message that it was okay to ignore my own needs, this is one of the things that if you are struggling with, if I stay in an unhealthy relationship for the kids, and I understand that there are so much unknown out there, but I worry, as a therapist, as a podcaster, as somebody that works with this population so often, that I worry that this is the message that's being sent to the kids. 00:24:20.077 --> 00:24:23.087 That if the, let's say in this scenario, 00:24:23.087 --> 00:24:25.875 and I'm working with men that are in incredibly 00:24:26.167 --> 00:24:29.764 unhealthy relationships with narcissistic and emotionally immature and abusive women, 00:24:30.467 --> 00:24:33.607 which is a whole, again, I know I did an episode about it a few weeks ago, 00:24:33.607 --> 00:24:38.927 but it's a whole different ballgame, and it is really scary because the man often 00:24:38.927 --> 00:24:41.188 is not being given any benefit of a doubt. 00:24:42.322 --> 00:24:47.732 But in this scenario, if you are buffering and trying to manage your husband's relationship 00:24:48.127 --> 00:24:53.227 to protect the kids because you're worried that divorce will be bad for the kids. 00:24:53.227 --> 00:24:57.428 These are the things that I worry. Again, a kid gets their external validation from their parents. 00:24:58.067 --> 00:25:03.702 And so if the validation that they are going to have, if the validation that they are going to get, 00:25:04.427 --> 00:25:11.947 is going to, in essence, be trying to learn how to navigate the emotions of a large adult human being 00:25:11.947 --> 00:25:17.143 that is their parent that they are seeking to go to for guidance and for support and for safety, 00:25:17.707 --> 00:25:22.787 then that's what it feels like to be them is gonna be someone that is learning how to read the room 00:25:22.787 --> 00:25:27.432 and put their needs second and try to go small when the other person goes big. 00:25:28.347 --> 00:25:31.307 But if you are developing a secure attachment with your kid, 00:25:31.307 --> 00:25:34.587 which means that they're the ones that are actually going through and experiencing life 00:25:34.587 --> 00:25:37.317 and you are there to say, tell me about it, how was it? 00:25:37.467 --> 00:25:39.990 What was that like? Do you wanna keep doing that? Or what else are you thinking? 00:25:40.647 --> 00:25:43.227 Instead of, I don't like that, I don't think you should do that, 00:25:43.227 --> 00:25:45.671 I can't believe you're asking me of that, do you know how that affects me? 00:25:46.187 --> 00:25:52.707 There's a lot of I's and me's there not the cool kind that are I worry or I wonder or I would like to know. So that 00:25:52.707 --> 00:25:59.187 message being sent, again what breaks my heart is that the message we're sending 00:25:59.187 --> 00:26:04.827 is that someone else's life, their activities and choices are far more important than mine. 00:26:05.683 --> 00:26:20.663 And instead, it is not unhealthy, it is not narcissistic or egotistical to be able to have your thoughts, your needs, and your wants, and be able to express them, but to someone that's safe, because that's where it becomes a whole different experience. 00:26:21.239 --> 00:26:30.529 She said, I've been shamed for spending too much money, and she said, I've had to account for whatever I buy when we have financial discussions, but I'm not supposed to ask anything about my spouse's purchase. 00:26:30.853 --> 00:26:33.635 She said, even though we have Amazon packages coming to our home almost daily, 00:26:34.112 --> 00:26:37.373 she said we have separate checking accounts, but he makes more money than I do and is always 00:26:37.373 --> 00:26:41.693 questioning what I spend my money on, but is not forthcoming on how he spends his money. 00:26:42.493 --> 00:26:46.253 She said I've learned not to ask about financial matters unless he is in the right mood and I'm 00:26:46.253 --> 00:26:50.573 prepared to share my list of purchases. I'm still working on this one, but she said I've been asking 00:26:50.573 --> 00:26:54.253 for financial information for months and I've decided that I need to budget my own money 00:26:54.253 --> 00:27:00.013 appropriately for now. And again, it is well within your right to have the financial information. 00:27:00.678 --> 00:27:10.895 It is well within your right to have a mutually reciprocal relationship where both of you are able to express concerns about money and purchases and be accountable for it and it's uncomfortable. 00:27:11.309 --> 00:27:21.653 And that's again where I go back to a narcissist or an emotionally immature person is so prone to just dismiss and just run away from discomfort at all costs. 00:27:22.112 --> 00:27:29.440 So, they don't want to have to admit that, yeah, you're right, sometimes I'm a little bit controlling about money, and other times I just spend. I'm impulsive. 00:27:29.611 --> 00:27:32.852 Because that would be scary to say that, and it might be uncomfortable. 00:27:33.662 --> 00:27:37.461 But that's what adult, mature human beings do in their conversations. 00:27:38.001 --> 00:27:40.891 They say, check this out, I impulsively bought something again today. 00:27:41.188 --> 00:27:45.194 Because if the other spouse is gonna say, oh man, tell me what that's like, I know I've been there before. 00:27:45.266 --> 00:27:50.013 You know, I worry because I feel like we're, we struggle with the budget, but maybe we can get on the same page. 00:27:50.013 --> 00:27:56.186 Can we hold ourselves? Can we work on this together? Can we deal with emotion in concert with each other, with another human being? 00:27:56.852 --> 00:28:01.146 Because that is where growth occurs. Not in the hiding, not in the playing small. 00:28:01.353 --> 00:28:05.440 There is no growth in the trying to manage someone else's emotions. 00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:11.060 Or just trying to continually rid myself of discomfort by giving in to the needs of others. 00:28:11.805 --> 00:28:17.860 The growth comes from feeling safe and secure as I express things that I'm going through for 00:28:17.860 --> 00:28:21.460 the first time in my life and having somebody there empathetically caring and saying, 00:28:21.460 --> 00:28:25.060 tell me more. And what's that like for you? Because then I get to say, man, 00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:29.368 let me see what that is like for me. Let me do a little self-confrontation. Check this out. 00:28:29.620 --> 00:28:32.660 Here's how I'm feeling now. And I never realized that. What's your experience? 00:28:33.365 --> 00:28:41.449 And I'm not saying then the unicorn comes out and they point their horn behind a tree and there's a pot of gold. 00:28:42.106 --> 00:28:49.650 It isn't that fictitious that these types of conversations and relationships, they do exist in the world. 00:28:49.749 --> 00:28:56.357 So if that is not what you are having, you deserve to have better relationships and better conversations. 00:28:57.185 --> 00:29:03.980 So here is where I almost just went with commandments. So the word commandments may still be used, 00:29:03.980 --> 00:29:05.251 you may have read that in the title. 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:08.924 This person said, oh boy, okay, you can use all of the following. 00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:15.757 So she said, you shall, shall never stop at Target because they disallowed Salvation Army bell ringers at Christmas. 00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:19.736 Shall always buy American made, he checked my clothing for tags for years. 00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:23.031 Shall never put any type of flavored coffee in the coffee maker. 00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:26.028 Shall always wash all new clothing and bedding before use. 00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:30.223 Shall never ask for things. This almost always was guaranteed by who you would not get them. 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.240 Shall not complain, because doing so indicates that you're not grateful. 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:39.960 Again, this is an adult human being in a marriage where the other adult human being is saying 00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:41.773 this is how you must be. 00:29:42.827 --> 00:29:47.715 And this is how our relationship needs to be framed. Just let that sink in. 00:29:48.457 --> 00:29:52.639 Because that is not a way to build connection. But she has plenty more. 00:29:53.097 --> 00:29:57.977 You shall not open the sunroof if he is in the car. You shall always check all of his pockets 00:29:57.977 --> 00:30:00.453 before washing his clothes because he could have forgotten something. 00:30:01.057 --> 00:30:06.088 You shall watch the salt. He monitored that like crazy. You shall get out of his chair. 00:30:06.417 --> 00:30:10.094 Particularly the kids. He would walk up to the chair and stand there and wait. 00:30:10.537 --> 00:30:15.517 You shall not open the bedroom window at night. You shall never tell anyone how many animals that we have. 00:30:15.517 --> 00:30:17.206 You shall not expect anything from him. 00:30:17.557 --> 00:30:22.317 He may or may not do what he said he would do. It depended on if he wanted to do that in the end, 00:30:22.317 --> 00:30:23.400 and you shall not question. 00:30:23.837 --> 00:30:25.326 Servers shall never be tipped. 00:30:25.797 --> 00:30:29.602 TV or music shall be played at his preferred volume. If it was too loud for his liking, 00:30:29.917 --> 00:30:30.854 then he would turn it off. 00:30:31.157 --> 00:30:34.599 And if you wanted it louder and he did not, that was incorrect. 00:30:35.077 --> 00:30:37.713 And if he wanted it down, you get the point. 00:30:38.357 --> 00:30:43.232 So she said, is that enough? She said, oh my goodness, what a miserable situation. 00:30:43.597 --> 00:30:46.637 So then someone else had chimed in and said, okay, maybe the title is gonna be 00:30:46.637 --> 00:30:48.372 The False Commandments of Narcissism. 00:30:48.517 --> 00:30:51.352 So I think that that does speak to this quite well. 00:30:51.877 --> 00:30:55.394 Another person chimed in and said, the one that I still catch myself abiding by, 00:30:55.837 --> 00:30:57.158 is How to Load the Dishwasher. 00:30:57.357 --> 00:31:00.277 And I've already commented on this, I think, in previous episodes, 00:31:00.277 --> 00:31:02.047 maybe even in the Death by a Thousand cuts. 00:31:02.637 --> 00:31:07.592 But she said, it's funny how the rules were always for things that he felt were primarily my responsibility, 00:31:08.057 --> 00:31:10.851 because of course he knew better how I should do everything. 00:31:11.437 --> 00:31:15.307 And to that one, I did say, I have literally and probably shared with other people 00:31:15.577 --> 00:31:18.773 that I could do an entire episode on narcissism and dishwashers. 00:31:19.157 --> 00:31:22.806 She's in a new relationship and she said when her new partner was over, 00:31:23.157 --> 00:31:24.849 he was helping her with the dishes. 00:31:24.997 --> 00:31:28.917 And she says, because that's the thing that happens in healthy relationships without the expectation 00:31:28.917 --> 00:31:30.152 of sex later, by the way. 00:31:30.657 --> 00:31:34.554 He asked how I like things put in the dishwasher. And she said, I sat there dumbfounded. 00:31:34.877 --> 00:31:38.461 And I thought, what's the angle? and then I told him about my ex's rules. 00:31:39.397 --> 00:31:44.047 With the dishwasher. Somebody else then just also chimed in and said that they also said, 00:31:44.047 --> 00:31:48.607 man, the dishwasher, why is this a thing? This is definitely how the rules played out in their home 00:31:48.607 --> 00:31:53.007 as well. And then other people chimed in and said, what is it about the dishwasher? And so I think 00:31:53.007 --> 00:31:57.887 that that is one of those things that it's just, it's because it's a simple thing that then someone 00:31:57.887 --> 00:32:03.694 can criticize someone else about. When in reality, you can load or unload the dishwasher, to be, 00:32:04.287 --> 00:32:08.447 honest, however you would like. Now, are there more efficient ways? First of all, let's define 00:32:08.447 --> 00:32:14.687 efficiency. But even if that's the case, is your goal to get into a relationship so that you can 00:32:14.687 --> 00:32:19.967 finally have your way and let somebody know how much better your way of loading or unloading 00:32:19.967 --> 00:32:25.247 the dishwasher is? Because if that is your goal for the relationship, then I would love for you 00:32:25.247 --> 00:32:30.527 to be able to make that clear maybe from the outset or from the onset of the relationship 00:32:30.953 --> 00:32:33.647 that if somebody says, hey, what are your hopes and dreams? What do you want to get out of this? 00:32:33.647 --> 00:32:36.813 Do we want to have kids? Do we want to be able to save together? Do we want to retirement? 00:32:37.247 --> 00:32:41.007 Do you want to go on vacations?" And if he says, I would rather have somebody say at the beginning. 00:32:41.729 --> 00:32:46.707 To be quite honest, I've got this whole idea around how a dishwasher should be loaded or unloaded. 00:32:47.130 --> 00:32:53.007 And so that's really my goal is to find someone that is doing it wrong so that then I can correct 00:32:53.007 --> 00:32:58.607 them and then they will then applaud me. And then I will feel like my life is complete, 00:32:58.607 --> 00:33:03.247 which I don't think is going to be the case. Someone else said that a memory was sparked. 00:33:03.247 --> 00:33:06.935 She said another rule of the household that they were not allowed to use their dishwasher at all. 00:33:07.358 --> 00:33:10.767 Even though it was brand new, we had to hand wash everything. If we dared to use the dishwasher, 00:33:10.767 --> 00:33:14.207 then there was a litany of complaints. The dishwashers are a waste of time. My family 00:33:14.207 --> 00:33:18.367 had to wash our dishes, so your family should too. I'll drink from this cup, but I'll bet it's dirty 00:33:18.367 --> 00:33:22.086 because you used the dishwasher because the dishwasher actually doesn't do a good job. 00:33:22.401 --> 00:33:26.911 Or the dishwasher's too noisy. It is confusing, she said, which it wasn't, and I could go on. 00:33:27.181 --> 00:33:30.926 And then more people chimed in about the dishwasher. 00:33:31.610 --> 00:33:36.340 Someone else had commented and said the rules so many so unpredictable it felt like yet he would rail, 00:33:36.958 --> 00:33:42.260 On work or outside sources that would have a preference not a policy that he would never follow those preferences himself, 00:33:42.728 --> 00:33:45.620 She said the rules happen to be on the things that I did and not him, 00:33:46.149 --> 00:33:49.220 The kids couldn't have donuts for breakfast because donuts aren't breakfast 00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:55.700 But then on the days that he would go out Maybe a saturday morning and he would go out and run errands then he would get them donuts and other pastries 00:33:55.700 --> 00:33:59.049 But that was different because it was the weekend and he didn't have a chance to interact with them often, 00:33:59.544 --> 00:34:04.580 The kid should exercise a certain amount of time every day, but he would not put any effort into it 00:34:04.580 --> 00:34:13.860 It was just a directive to me and I also happen to be working full-time She said he had preferences on everything that he passive aggressively let known and she said then I would hear about if I didn't follow, 00:34:14.371 --> 00:34:21.180 the dog food for example needed to be left in the dog food bag and Sealed until I scooped out the food at the time that the dog was gonna eat, 00:34:21.627 --> 00:34:27.487 Even though digging my hand in the bag would scratch my hand and whatever that would look like when I scooped the food. 00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:31.376 She said he left for quite a while, an extended amount of time for work. 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.941 And she said, I started to feel rebellious and I started to break the rules. 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:37.498 She said, and it still made me feel so anxious. 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.860 She said therapy helped her realize how silly it all was from the outside. 00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:46.140 And that's the vibe that I would love for you to get from this episode of how silly it is from the outside. 00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:51.080 That I am an adult with a mind and opinion. I can make decisions and calls on my own 00:34:51.080 --> 00:34:52.910 even without consulting my spouse's opinion. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.400 And she said, I have no idea when I started to follow his rules 00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:58.545 and I still catch myself following them without realizing it. 00:34:58.680 --> 00:35:00.148 I'm taking it day by day for sure. 00:35:00.700 --> 00:35:04.080 She said, I don't have to give him a full report of every bite that the kids have eaten today 00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:06.287 because when I do, then I'm open for criticism. 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:11.067 I can buy and use a dog food bin since I'm the only one who feeds the dog and I prefer it that way. 00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:15.109 She said, I can let the kids brush their teeth in the downstairs bathroom on occasion 00:35:15.240 --> 00:35:18.269 even if my kid tells me that, well, dad wouldn't let me do that. 00:35:18.680 --> 00:35:23.600 I can even give my kids mac and cheese for a second day in a row if that's how life is rolling that day 00:35:23.600 --> 00:35:27.800 and the kids can even have a cinnamon roll for breakfast, even when it's not a weekend 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:29.018 and it's not something that he does. 00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:33.960 To which somebody else commented that it's the directives, the rules that are expected to be enforced, 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.878 just not by the person giving the rules. 00:35:36.700 --> 00:35:40.000 Just a few more. There's another person that I just, I really appreciate this take. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:45.080 She said, this is why I'm even struggling to figure out how to have a healthy relationship with her new husband 00:35:45.080 --> 00:35:48.111 and she's in a very healthy, happy relationship now. 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:53.480 She said, there are all these unwritten laws in my head about how marriage works based on my old neural pathways 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:57.480 recreated from a 20-year relationship with a narcissistic ex. She said it 00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:01.080 seemed as if there was some sort of invisible exchange system that in order 00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:04.280 to ask a favor of him I had to do something for him. If I wanted to have a 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:08.560 girl's night out, he needed a week away on a hunting trip. If I asked him to help 00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:11.520 with some of the household duties, then I had to go out and do a big chunk of the 00:36:11.520 --> 00:36:14.960 yard work. If I wanted to spend money on something for myself, then he got to buy 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:20.080 a new gun or something and she said she has just a million more examples of this. 00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:26.353 And she said, I don't think I ever would have noticed how this is not a great foundation for a relationship, and how I did not feel like there was unconditional love. 00:36:26.857 --> 00:36:31.377 She said, my husband now calls me out on it all the time, and calls me out, let me say it in a good way. 00:36:31.908 --> 00:36:40.118 She said that he points out that there are just times in life when he is more available and will step up, and times when I am more available and then I can do more, and it's not an exchange system. 00:36:40.586 --> 00:36:45.564 That love should not be conditional and full of unwritten laws and expectations of reciprocation all the time. 00:36:45.978 --> 00:36:53.315 And I could not agree more. Other people chimed in and talked about how relatable that was. The silent, what's in it for me attitude is so real. 00:36:53.558 --> 00:36:58.851 And then I just wanted to, I chimed in on this one and said it's something that shows up unconsciously in new relationships. 00:36:59.310 --> 00:37:05.585 Because at that time when I was reading through this, this thread for the first time, I had had a session with somebody pretty recently 00:37:05.891 --> 00:37:11.220 that it was just, they were worried about what they didn't know that they didn't know about relationships. 00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:17.279 Entering a new one and the fact that they just felt so anxious about what are the things I don't know about a relationship. 00:37:17.576 --> 00:37:26.281 And when you're in a healthy relationship, of course you don't know what you don't know, but you're going to discover together, which then the relationship is filled with curiosity, which is amazing. 00:37:26.596 --> 00:37:35.941 She was very nice and chimed back in and said, it's interesting navigating a new healthy relationship with past unhealthy survival tendencies. And I really appreciated that phrase that she used. 00:37:36.544 --> 00:37:45.420 She said, my eyes are wide open as I've learned a lot in this past year. And she said she hopes that she can use this understanding to reach out and help even more people navigate this unknown. 00:37:45.870 --> 00:37:47.820 And I thought this was a really good take too. 00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:52.640 Another person chimed in and said that they also felt that they were living from these rules. 00:37:52.640 --> 00:37:58.640 And she said, I found myself guilting out of whenever her narcissistic ex-husband has the kids 00:37:58.640 --> 00:38:04.010 and has an appointment, falls on his mornings or when he has the kids and that responsibility falls on him. 00:38:04.640 --> 00:38:07.760 She said, even if I tend to everything else on their schedules, she said, 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.247 the one I'm feeling guilty about now is to drop off our son at a therapist, 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:16.320 then wait for 30 minutes with wifi, comfy sofas, good free coffee during a time 00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:17.666 that he has a break in his work schedule. 00:38:18.200 --> 00:38:23.320 She said here, the rule is everything to do with the children that does not involve a trampoline park 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.759 a swim park is mine to do, not his. 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:46.330 And I think that's one of the things that can be so difficult is you do want the best for your kids. And so, if there is a chance that your ex, and then we can stay in this scenario, whether it's the husband in the relationship with the immature woman, wife, or if it's the wife in the relationship with the immature husband, I feel like I could just continue to go on. There's so many. Let me just go through a speed round. 00:38:46.330 --> 00:38:49.290 Someone else said, I can't believe what a chord this struck. 00:38:49.290 --> 00:38:53.230 She said there were colors he didn't like, smells he couldn't stand, rules about candles, haircuts, 00:38:53.230 --> 00:38:57.290 clothing, perfume, purses, my jewelry, how to make the bed, how to fold the laundry, 00:38:57.290 --> 00:39:01.003 how to clean, the lights, the thermostat, the air conditioner, even how to sit on the furniture, 00:39:01.430 --> 00:39:05.171 how to arrive early, how long to stay, how I talked on the phone, what I said to the neighbors, 00:39:05.510 --> 00:39:08.170 the exhaust fan in the bathroom, the refrigerator, the car. 00:39:08.170 --> 00:39:09.762 She said so many issues around the car. 00:39:10.150 --> 00:39:14.390 There were rules about shopping for food, eating habits, rules for the curtains, no plants, no pets. 00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:18.963 And she said, and I felt like I was always in trouble if family or guests violated his rules. 00:39:19.310 --> 00:39:22.519 Somehow it was my responsibility and I would pay the price after they were gone. 00:39:22.950 --> 00:39:25.710 She said, I swear I could go on for a week and still be reciting the rules. 00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:27.560 I catch myself often these days realizing. 00:39:28.070 --> 00:39:33.258 Did I get, she said, a lovely little, just a bit of pleasure every time I'm breaking one of his rules. 00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:36.390 The enormity of how bad it was has never been a real eye-opener. 00:39:36.390 --> 00:39:40.390 She said, I think I'd become so programmed that it was second nature, but never again. 00:39:40.390 --> 00:39:42.242 And she said, my house now, my rules. 00:39:42.550 --> 00:39:46.330 And then other people chimed in. One saying, I lived so many of these same rules 00:39:46.330 --> 00:39:48.049 and I was made to pay if guests broke them. 00:39:48.390 --> 00:39:52.298 I needed to contemplate this better. Someone else then chimed in and said, the smells. 00:39:52.410 --> 00:39:56.290 She said, I can't use dry shampoo without him complaining about the smell. 00:39:56.290 --> 00:39:58.582 Candles, forget about it unless it's pine scented. 00:39:59.030 --> 00:40:02.723 If I wear perfume, he complains. If I put makeup on, it's who are you trying to impress? 00:40:03.090 --> 00:40:06.810 I don't care how you look because I'm doing it for myself isn't enough and I could go on. 00:40:07.370 --> 00:40:11.410 Another person said, he didn't like certain restaurants because their sweet tea was awful 00:40:11.410 --> 00:40:13.021 but made our kids order water everywhere. 00:40:13.430 --> 00:40:18.310 Showers should last no more than eight minutes, but he never was able to provide the data 00:40:18.310 --> 00:40:19.521 of where the eight minutes came from. 00:40:19.950 --> 00:40:24.841 Picky eaters were not allowed, but he could declare boldly what foods he refused to eat, such as oysters. 00:40:25.390 --> 00:40:28.610 The menu of dinners for the week couldn't have too much rice or pasta, 00:40:28.610 --> 00:40:29.748 but he was okay with potatoes. 00:40:30.270 --> 00:40:33.213 And she said she grew up in an area where rice and pasta were the staple, 00:40:33.670 --> 00:40:38.230 but then she also said, but that was part of what he despised of me being proud of my roots, 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:39.803 yet he was beyond proud of his. 00:40:40.250 --> 00:40:43.827 So basically anything that a double standard to be attached to. 00:40:44.510 --> 00:40:46.490 We'll go through a speed round and then we'll wrap this one up. 00:40:46.490 --> 00:40:50.435 Another person said, had to buy his favorite brands or they were called poop brands. 00:40:50.870 --> 00:40:55.150 If we weren't 15 minutes early, we were late. If I didn't dry out chicken, he would complain 00:40:55.150 --> 00:40:57.060 that I was gonna make everybody sick with salmonella. 00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:02.750 I couldn't turn the AC above 60 degrees for years even though I have Raynaud's and my 00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:06.963 fingers would be numb with a sweatshirt and pants. Then he would proceed to get mad that 00:41:07.071 --> 00:41:11.630 we wouldn't go to sleep naked because it was a freezing cold room. If I complained, 00:41:11.630 --> 00:41:14.910 that meant I was ungrateful. I had to speak to him about feelings or important stuff at 00:41:14.910 --> 00:41:18.450 the exact right time, not after work, not when he was hungry, and not before bed. 00:41:19.026 --> 00:41:22.960 He made it clear that he liked all the girls' hair long, we couldn't cut it short. Also, 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:27.182 He didn't like it up. He didn't like it when I wore too much makeup or skinny jeans or capris. 00:41:27.632 --> 00:41:30.830 We wanted time to go to bed early with him, but he wouldn't help get the kids ready to 00:41:30.830 --> 00:41:34.276 bed for years. And when he finally did, he rushed them and made them upset before bed. 00:41:34.807 --> 00:41:38.399 We had rules on how many nights he would prefer I stay up late versus I go to bed with him. 00:41:38.705 --> 00:41:41.171 I was a night owl and he went to bed as the kids were going to bed. 00:41:41.667 --> 00:41:44.590 The dog was never allowed upstairs because of his allergies, but he was the one who 00:41:44.590 --> 00:41:49.150 insisted on getting the dog even though he knew he was allergic. So many rules around 00:41:49.150 --> 00:41:53.070 air-conditioning haircuts spending money, but she said there were also other rules, 00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:56.970 like if you're tired, go to bed without reading or else he gets mad at you about it. 00:41:57.393 --> 00:42:00.430 Or if you say you're going to read, but you're on your phone, he gets mad about that. 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.870 Or if you say you're tired, then don't go to bed, he gets mad at you if you turn out the lights, 00:42:03.870 --> 00:42:07.098 but if you go to bed with the lights on, then he gets mad that you didn't wait up for him. 00:42:07.422 --> 00:42:10.285 Or he asks you a yes-no question that feels like a loaded agenda, 00:42:10.609 --> 00:42:13.790 you have to guess the right answer, or he gets mad. And if you try a clarifying question, 00:42:13.790 --> 00:42:18.750 he gets mad and barks, it's a yes or no question. Now, I read those as quickly as I could because 00:42:18.855 --> 00:42:24.030 that's the confusion. That even if you try to slow down and stop and make sense of these things, 00:42:24.030 --> 00:42:28.830 they're going to change. More people chimed in, you're so right, rules like when the movie is 00:42:28.830 --> 00:42:32.830 over you have to stay in your seat and watch the credits until the credits are all the way done. 00:42:33.592 --> 00:42:37.870 Somebody else chimed in and said, yep, that's one for me too. And another person did say, 00:42:37.976 --> 00:42:41.523 reading all this made me realize something, that my husband is hyper vigilant about 00:42:41.928 --> 00:42:45.230 not appearing controlling. That there are definitely examples of him having rules around 00:42:45.230 --> 00:42:46.825 around kitchen cleaning, money, et cetera. 00:42:47.350 --> 00:42:50.930 But she said, here's what's funny or weird about it. He uses himself as the standard 00:42:50.930 --> 00:42:52.091 which I should be measuring myself. 00:42:52.610 --> 00:42:56.170 He's under the impression that if he's doing or not doing something, I should be too. 00:42:56.530 --> 00:43:00.290 This way, he doesn't think he's being controlling. For example, she said he decided to stop buying 00:43:00.290 --> 00:43:01.832 his protein powder because of cost. 00:43:02.370 --> 00:43:05.154 And so now he's recently berated me about not using mine. 00:43:05.802 --> 00:43:12.132 His rationality, he stopped buying his, so I should too. Same happens with cleaning the kitchen. Now that he's cleaning it more, 00:43:12.132 --> 00:43:15.236 everybody needs to be better about putting their dishes in the dishwasher right away, 00:43:15.767 --> 00:43:19.413 even though he was never that diligent about the dishes when I was the one cleaning. 00:43:20.026 --> 00:43:24.608 His control is super covert to me and like others have said, uses a great deal of guilt. 00:43:25.148 --> 00:43:28.372 And even more so though, he puts rules on communication because that's less tangible 00:43:28.372 --> 00:43:32.612 than him controlling how much money I spend. I'm not allowed to make faces when I talk, 00:43:32.612 --> 00:43:35.952 no interrupting him in his long rants, don't be on my phone while he's talking, 00:43:36.391 --> 00:43:43.692 act very interested but not too emotional. None of these rules apply to him and if I break one, then he uses that as an excuse to turn into a raging 00:43:43.692 --> 00:43:50.812 teenager and say whatever harsh cruel things he wants. And while I feel we could go on and maybe we'll save this for a part two, but I'll wrap it up with 00:43:50.939 --> 00:43:55.132 a comment that really did, I know I can use this phrase a lot, breaks my heart. 00:43:55.999 --> 00:44:03.052 But one of the women in the group said, one thing that I really am having issues on learning in my brain, even though I'm still married, she said, is that my worth 00:44:03.052 --> 00:44:07.972 or worthiness of love directly correlates with my productivity. If I do enough, things 00:44:07.972 --> 00:44:12.372 are copacetic. If I'm not productive enough, I'm met with anger, tantrums, name-calling. 00:44:12.372 --> 00:44:16.852 She said, my therapist is trying to really drill into me that my worth is not based on 00:44:17.037 --> 00:44:20.852 productivity. And I think that's one of the challenges here. And people had chimed in 00:44:20.852 --> 00:44:24.892 and related as well. One of the people said, I can really relate. When my therapist sent 00:44:24.892 --> 00:44:28.722 me a copy of my treatment plan for therapy, the word busyness was highlighted and underlined. 00:44:29.412 --> 00:44:33.664 That we're so much more than that, but it's so hard to undo, and we didn't become busy 00:44:33.972 --> 00:44:38.273 producers in a vacuum. It was an important protector at some point, and maybe still is. 00:44:38.705 --> 00:44:44.372 And I think that's one of the most, the largest challenges with this, the group of kind people 00:44:44.372 --> 00:44:49.612 that are in these relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic people, whether again, 00:44:49.612 --> 00:44:54.212 male, female, whatever the dynamic is, that you're a kind person trying to make sense 00:44:54.212 --> 00:44:59.312 of things, trying to do enough because when you do, then that's some of the times where 00:44:59.312 --> 00:45:03.852 you are met with some bit of validation. But then when these rules, these rules just continue 00:45:03.852 --> 00:45:07.992 to change and they aren't enough and they are crazy making because you are absolutely 00:45:07.992 --> 00:45:12.372 losing your sense of self, then that can be this position where you just start to feel 00:45:12.372 --> 00:45:19.552 like I just can't make sense of anything because it's nonsense. So if you have additional examples 00:45:19.552 --> 00:45:25.552 of these rules, send them to me. Contact at tonyoverbay.com and we'll do additional episodes 00:45:25.552 --> 00:45:29.112 based off of this because I guarantee that there are going to be people that are going 00:45:29.433 --> 00:45:35.412 to just resonate with this concept of these rules. These just double standard or passive 00:45:35.412 --> 00:45:40.352 aggressive or do as I say, not as I do rules. And again, just know that if that's what you're 00:45:40.352 --> 00:45:44.192 dealing with in your relationship, it's not an emotionally mature, healthy relationship 00:45:44.192 --> 00:45:47.992 and it's okay for you to do things the way that you want to do them and especially to 00:45:47.992 --> 00:45:52.272 be able to have conversations about this. So, I appreciate your time and I will see 00:45:52.272 --> 00:45:54.153 next week on waking up to narcissism. 00:45:54.160 --> 00:46:24.966 Music.