Music.
Welcome to episode 66 of Waking Up To Narcissism. I am your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed
marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch podcast, as well as a few others.
Murder on the Couch, True Crime Meets Therapy, which maybe by the time you hear this, it is
being queued up and ready to be released. And the best way to find out what is coming next is please
sign up for my newsletter. If you go to the show notes, there's a Linktree link that will say
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send me questions. I've been told that there might be a little bit of a challenge with the
contact form but if so just send me an email at contact at tonyoverbay.com and I want to know
your questions, I want your stories, I want some poetry. We're going to talk about that today.
And I also want to encourage you to look in the show notes as well and find the waking up to
narcissism premium question and answer podcast. It's $4.99 a month and those
proceeds do go to help people that are that are dealing with emotionally immature narcissistic relationships. Everything from paying for some therapy,
courses, programs. Hopefully if the fund can grow to be able to help people with
everything from legal expenses and moving costs because a lot of times that
that financial abuse is one of the things that keeps people in unhealthy relationships and it is an absolute form of control and that's some of the things
that they just it break my heart. So today we're gonna talk about a difference between rules and cuts and at the time of this recording I still for
the life of me want to find some sort of creative title. So if you are listening
to this you have already seen what the title of the the episode will be and you
will know if I finally just said forget it rules versus cuts or if I came up
with some clever something around commandments of narcissism or something to that effect.
But when we're talking about rules versus cuts, and you'll get some examples of that,
a lot of examples of that today from the Private Women's Facebook group.
But there's a poem that I wanna read first.
And there's a thread in the group that is, it's amazing, it's beautiful,
where a lot of people will share poetry, so I just asked if maybe we could put everything in one place.
And so I really feel like this poem, it just encapsulates and captures what those cuts do
or what those are like.
And then I think that will then help us frame what the rules feel like when you are in these narcissistic
or emotionally immature relationships,
especially when you wake up to the fact that it's okay for you to have your own opinion
and a little foreshadowing things like a toothpaste tube,
does not always have to have a flip top, that it can have a turning top as well.
And that does not make you a horrible human being if you like one versus the other.
So let me start with this poem, and let me get a joke out of the way first
because I think this is, it's a beautiful poem.
I think it's touching.
People in the group talked about how it really brought a lot of big emotions out.
I was talking with someone else about poetry and the narcissist in their life, and they just, we were making a lighthearted comment about the fact that this person never appreciated the client that was in my office's poetry because it didn't rhyme, and poetry is okay to not rhyme.
So this does not rhyme, and it is, it's powerful nonetheless.
So, let me read this. Author unknown because I want to keep that confidential, but there
are a lot of poems in the group that I want to read over the coming weeks, so we'll do
that as well. So, it says, I'm lost in your fears. They twist and turn, winding this way
and that, then back again. An infinite circle. The lies slide like vines over the forest
floor. I trip over the rocks of blame that you throw at my feet. I get peaks of sunlight,
but catch only glimpses.
The thick branches and leaves shroud the light and crowd the path.
I find myself crouching lower and lower, taking up less space to make room for your ego.
The night is drawing, but now I see the stars. They are my hopes and dreams.
It surprised me when I learned the opposite of love is not hate, but fear.
And the more I love, the less I fear.
I no longer hack away desperately at your fears. I trace them, and I see them for what they are.
Fear of showing yourself because who you are might not be good enough.
Fear of owning your choices because if you do, you'd have to accept the consequences.
Fear of taking off your mask because being vulnerable can leave you open for hurt.
Fear of being wrong because being right gives you a false sense of worth.
The more I love and respect myself, the more clearly I see you.
Your fears are not for me to hack away. I loosen my grip and climb.
My view of this forest path has changed. Where it leads, I do not know.
I look around and notice the air is thin up here and I'm afraid of heights.
But here, my wings can grow and the light of truth heals me.
It's beautiful. It really is and talks about just what it feels like to trip over someone else's ego
and to find yourself being small.
And I just, I love that analogy of climbing up to the top of the trees.
And sure, it's gonna be scary and you're afraid of heights, but ultimately that is the place where you'll grow.
So I'm just really, I appreciate people that have creative talents like that.
I feel like that poem says more in about two minutes than I'm gonna try to communicate to you
in the next 30 or 40 minutes with just trying to make sense of things
that really just don't make sense.
So on that note, there was a post that just, I thought it was a short post that then just ended up.
Bring so much so much content in the group one of the members of the group said even though i've been out for almost two years i find it amazing how many rules i still catch myself following.
Tony talks about death by a thousand cuts but i feel like i've had to live by a thousand rules i can see it's gonna take a long time to figure out what are truly my own choices instead of old programming.
And then she said, anybody else struggle with this? Which I can guess everybody that is in this situation struggles with this.
And a couple people commented and said they've been out for a year and it's amazing
how far they've come, but how many rules they still think about.
And somebody said, and not feel anxious while you're doing a specific task.
And the person commenting there said that they were still in the relationship,
so they don't really, they weren't necessarily thinking in terms of looking at the rules
that they were now trying to, I don't know, unattach from.
So someone else just said that so many rules and that they were introduced so passive-aggressively
that it's hard to even remember, she said, when we started following the rules.
And she said she had been separated for almost two years and she was currently going through a divorce,
but she said she was getting better at catching them now and slowly working to undo each rule one by one,
but that can be really exhausting.
And she says, I just asked myself, how do I wanna handle this?
What works for me and do I really care about this?
And someone else chimed in and said that sometimes they feel like they need to ask for their spouse's input
on things as if they're not intelligent enough decide for themselves and I almost feel like that's where I want to jump in and
say you're an adult you've been getting along well up to this point in your
life and so it's okay for you to like the things you like and do things the
way that you would like to do them and what can sound so probably off-putting
to the pathologically kind person is it feels like well but then I'm just saying
that well we're gonna do it my way and and I think that's a really good point
There's really, there's middle ground. I don't want to just immediately go to this concept of compromise because I think that's what our brain wants to do to try to make sense of what that would look like.
And sometimes we feel like, okay, well, I know what compromise is going to look like, he's going to get his way, so I might as well just acquiesce and give in, and it's not that bad anyway.
But it's okay to have a conversation around, well, we'll get there with some of these examples, but honest to goodness, toothpaste lids, you're going to hear some really interesting ones today,
Where the more emotionally immature or narcissistic person just says this is how it works and and the everybody knows is not an answer.
Yes i will give this example until the cows come home that i still remember someone talking about the concept of common sense.
And then i bring up the example of in some countries where a baby sneezes and an apparent immediately puts their mouth around that nose and sucks up and spits out.
And that's common sense to that person. And then to somebody else,
that might be the most disgusting thing they've ever heard of, and why don't they use a tissue?
Yet then for another person, using a tissue just seems crazy because why am I wasting tissue paper?
Or, and I'm gonna get it all on my face and I'm gonna walk around.
So it's just, let's just look at the way that people do things and why they like doing them
the way they do, and if we start from there, now we're gonna actually have adult mature conversations.
Love or control? not both in an adult relationship.
So to the original poster I had said once again you're creating content for me and for the world and I just said that anybody seeing this post let's talk about rules and I just said can you share the rules that you heard and I feel like okay we've got death by a thousand cuts but I don't know control by a thousand rules but I really feel like this is something that will resonate.
So the first person that chimed in with a lot of rules she said here are a few rules off the top of my head.
Protein is the cornerstone of every meal and must be present.
So you can see already where we're going to go. That this is something that is being preached and told.
And while there may be some truth in some of the rules, we're open to interpretation.
And I know my wife and I talk about this so often.
Let's just take this one for example. Protein as the staple of every meal.
And then who's to say that in a few years we'll find out that the nation is over-proteined.
So being able to make an informed decision is wonderful. and being able to also have your choice in that decision
is a powerful thing as well.
So back to her rules. She said here are the rules that she had heard.
Again, protein, cornerstone of every meal must be present.
If meat wasn't highly visible, it was a constant barrage of complaints and questions.
Is there meat in this? Where's the meat? I can't taste the meat.
Now to someone that is on a plant-based diet, then if they are hearing that,
sometimes the word meat can literally give a visceral reaction,
but then to the person who is saying where's the meat, then they are going to say
that the person on a plant-based diet doesn't know what they're talking about.
So we can have different opinions.
And here's the one I've alluded to two times already. All toothpaste must have a screw-on cap
instead of a flip cap regardless of brand.
Rationalized by flip caps are messier. If I did happen to buy a flip cap,
then I would hear comments about it almost daily until it was gone.
And I understand that unfortunately that's the relationship that some people are in
where they feel like, you know, it's not a big deal. I'll get the screw cap or whatever that looks like.
But we're back to that death by a thousand cuts vibe or control by a thousand rules.
She said next, we don't waste food in this house. There's the rule.
If I needed to throw away rotted, expired or moldy food, I had to justify and defend it.
So much so that I struggled to throw anything away.
She said he would also go through the trash to make sure I wasn't throwing things away without him knowing.
So apparently it was very important for him to be the throwaway police or the wasted food police
or fill in the blank. Which if we go back to control, I think it's pretty obvious that that's what we're hearing.
She said, if I didn't wear a certain color nail polish, or I didn't wear a certain nail polish color for over 10 years because he doesn't like that color, but she said, no rhyme or reason.
He was also very rigid about my hair length, our kids hair length. I had to tell him after the fact if I was getting even a single trim on my hair.
Otherwise, I had to promise not to cut too much because the kids needed to have certain lengths of hair.
She said the bed must be made at all times, unless being slept in, of course.
And so if some of you are saying, okay, well, it sounds reasonable.
But then she goes on to say, this was hard to navigate because even washing the sheets was difficult
because if he came home to no sheets on the bed, because they were being washed, he would panic
and I would hear about it for the rest of the night.
Another common one, if dad is working, then everybody is working.
She said, this is present both in my childhood home and my home with my husband.
If dad was doing chores, then everyone else had better be doing chores.
But she said, the thing is the distribution of work was already highly imbalanced.
The rest of us did chores on a regular basis while dad did them when and if convenient
and only sporadically.
So when it came to making plans for the holidays, his family came first because he had very close siblings
and siblings cannot be apart.
Or she said another one, the kids had to read for 30 minutes every night.
And again, here's where I think that there's a tie-in with death by 1000 cuts along with these rules
because somebody will say, well, it doesn't sound so bad.
But she said this one was clever because it was hidden behind sound guidance
for raising kids. reading is good, but he would only allow them to read his books.
She said the kids were little, at some point kindergarten or first grade,
and they were expected to read Tom Sawyer, Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
So she said her kids grew to really hate it, and it was like, she said, World War III
to get them to compromise because it was all about control.
And I think one of the unfortunate things is that this is a point where I would be curious
to know what their relationship is with reading at this point in their lives.
She said, I had to be ready for physical intimacy at his request, it wasn't always granted,
but it was an expectation met with pouting in the silent treatment if I said no.
She said the kids were only allowed to have dessert on Tuesdays and Fridays.
And I hear versions of this one often and I think it's so interesting.
So let me dig a little deeper here. So again, kids were only allowed to have dessert on Tuesdays and Fridays,
but she said it was so rigid in his mind that if someone's birthday was on a day of the week
that was not on treat day, then it was a battle to get him to be flexible on having birthday cake.
And she said the same goes for any holidays. If he did compromise, it became about a trade.
This is where I wanted to get into this. Fine, he said, I'll allow birthday cake on Wednesday,
but that means no dessert for the rest of the week.
She said, I had to fight that battle many times.
So if you're here, I imagine a lot of the people that are listening to this content have similar experiences.
And if you're someone listening to it, and these are the rules that you give someone,
and if you're saying, well, right,
but now is the time, Welcome to the world of self-confrontation.
So, if you are saying, but everybody knows, but this is the best way, then I'm grateful that you have found a best way for you, and if you think to yourself, well, it just makes sense to you, or everybody knows, well, I think I could probably question, I don't know if I was asked, so I know that it's probably not everybody.
I know I'm being a little facetious, but I want the people hearing this, that if you're one who has been living by these thousand or two thousand rules, to know that I just even, this is where I just want to bring that awareness that that's not healthy in a relationship, that relationships are built upon, tell me more, curiosity, what's your experience, what matters to you.
And then eventually we work toward a compromise. And I stumble over the word compromise so often
because there are so many steps of communication that need to be had before we get to compromise.
I understand compromise in a business setting is it's this art of war, negotiation, compromise.
And in that point, I think often, if people are being, I think, real with themselves,
in a business setting, that the compromise is that they win if they get more out of the deal.
But I know there's also this belief that both people want to walk away and feel like they win,
and I think there's psychology around that too. Maybe we have to confabulate a narrative
that says, oh yeah, this is exactly what I wanted.
But in adult human relationships, I'm feeling like I want to say,
I will grant the concept of compromise and negotiation, but it needs to be from a very healthy place
of tell me more, what's your experience?
Because we'll find often that people don't really care about certain things.
Or we'll find that people had completely different experiences growing up, which led to completely different experiences or expectations as an adult.
And so we want to have a tool to communicate about these things before we try to work out what that's going to look like for our family.
Because inevitably, the more alpha, the more dominant, the more direct, the more intense, that person is going to most likely get their needs met and then feel like,
okay, good, we agree, because the kinder person, the more emotionally sensitive or pathologically kind
or highly sensitive person is going to find themselves over and over again just acquiescing for the sake of,
it's not worth the fight.
But meanwhile, the message to the person that continually seems to get their way is that I'm right.
But it's really, I am too controlling to really hear and understand my partner.
Another person said that when I was married, I was told that we had to have sex at least every 48 hours to keep him satisfied so he wouldn't look for other avenues of relief.
She said, I followed this for the first few years of our marriage. It didn't work. I had to learn that this was his issue and not mine to fix.
And, you know, at times, I don't know why, but I feel like, I mean, I'm a marriage and family therapist. I've seen well over a thousand couples and a sex therapist talk about this all the time.
But then I don't talk a lot about it on the podcast and I think I confessed it on one of the podcasts that for some reason I still imagine that a mom is playing this while the kids are in the van and all of a sudden I'm talking about trying to do these code words around intimacy.
When in reality, this is one that I think is very, very poignant and timely and that I hear on a regular basis that is not what I hear in emotionally healthy relationships and that is the fact that from a guy saying to his wife, what am I supposed to do?
Do you know how bad it hurts down there if I don't have a release every 48 hours or 72 hours
And then a guy will then be in actual visceral, I mean, just pain.
Oh my gosh, you have to relieve me.
And I worry, and I feel confident that that is just really an unhealthy way for somebody to get rid of their discomfort.
The discomfort is that they would like to have sex. They would like friction on their genitalia, quite frankly.
I feel like that is not saying, I desire a deep connection. I desire an emotional connection.
We are not working up the ladders of intimacy. There is not verbal intimacy.
We talk, we just have this deep connection, which leads to emotional intimacy.
Now, I feel like we can open up and talk about anything, which above that is cognitive and intellectual intimacy.
This is where I like to say that one person can have their PhD and the other their GED, but we're so connected verbally and emotionally that we're even having conversations about things that we absolutely know that the other person doesn't know, but there's so much curiosity there because there's mutual respect.
And up above that one is spiritual intimacy. So at that point, if we're connected verbally and emotionally, cognitive, intellectually, then we can be in two completely different places from a spiritual place as well because we respect each other.
And we are, of course, we have different opinions. And how fascinating is it that I can have this opportunity to connect with another human being that has such different experiences, but we care about each other.
About each other and that is what leads to physical intimacy. It's a byproduct of
those other levels of intimacy. So if a person is saying my nether regions are
in pain so please relieve them for me by friction on my genitalia, we're kind of
missing the boat. But then other times I want you to desire me and I want you to
praise me and that is just it's just not a setup for any type of real consistency
with a connection in the relationship. So she goes on to say other ones. She says,
as a child I was not allowed to pursue new interests if I didn't show an.
Aptitude for those interests. She said, for example, I really wanted to play
soccer but I wasn't athletic so my dad only let me pursue art activities
because I was creatively inclined. But she said, for many years I believe that
exercise just wasn't for me because I wasn't athletic enough. Now right there
you can probably see where this is going. So I would imagine that the dad in this
scenario. He maybe didn't like seeing his kid out there not being the best because
that would reflect on the dad as making it about him. But if the kid wants to
play sports and wants to play soccer, then that sounds like a great idea. And.
Let them be the ones that are gonna go and explore that and not live with this
life of regret because they were unable to do the things that they wanted to do
that they saw their friends doing as well. Because then how does that carry
over into adulthood? Like she said, for many years I believe that exercise just
wasn't for me because I wasn't athletic enough. She said I even tried to go out
for track and my dad who happened to be a long-distance runner made me run a
mile with him. She said when I had never run a mile before and then he told me
see you can't do it so you probably wouldn't be very good or successful in track across country.
Pause dramatically i think i need a sound effective record scratch at some point in every episode.
Because so long distance running father says come with me child and run a mile for the first time number one look how easy was for me number two i be you number three i was probably even faster than you were your age number four see this isn't something for you.
And it's insane. It really is. So then she said, yeah, she felt like she internalized that if I couldn't do something well or perfect, I should not pursue it at all. She said, I had to learn that mistakes and failing are just learning opportunities and not character flaws.
So, if you are a parent that is not wanting your kid to do something, I would love for
a quick self-check-in. Now, there are real things like financial burdens and issues,
and I would say that if you're in a position where finances are an issue, then I would
also look for other ways. There are often times that clubs and teams will have scholarship
opportunities or there's the rec programs. And so, I feel like there's often a way to
have someone be able to at least somewhat explore the opportunities that they would like to. But I do know that there are financial burdens. But if you don't want to take them because you are worried that they will not be good, that's a you thing. And if you are telling yourself, but I don't want them to do it because I don't want them to get picked on or bullied because kids are mean, which I understand that. But I will just say, go ahead and set a few bucks aside each month for therapy someday for the kid then to say,
I was never even given a chance for the kids to bully me. I was never even given the opportunity
to see if it was something that I liked. And I feel like that's one that I hear often.
She said from her religious community that she said she's no longer a part of and she said and from her spouse when she was newly married, there was an expectation to be the ideal what she referred to as a Proverbs 31 wife.
She said I was expected to take on all the home duties, the laundry, the cooking, the meal planning, the grocery shopping, the cleaning, the organizing, along with finances, bill paying, taxes, budgeting, because she said I was quote better at it.
When in reality, she said, my spouse didn't know how to do it.
And she also worked a full-time job where she commuted quite a bit each day,
while her spouse was finishing school. His school, his degree, he would say, are
far more important than sharing the duties. So, and at that point, she had already graduated with a degree. And she said, this set a precedent for the rest
of our marriage in which I was expected to carry a lot of the household duties,
on my own. She said, when we started having children, this included taking care of them and all that entailed. She said her opinion really wasn't asked
after that point. She said he had to have the clothes he needed each day, I needed
to have dinner on the table when he wanted. And she said I thought it was being a good wife. I was actually being used and abused while my spouse had a
lot less stress than I had. And she said this made me susceptible to depression.
She had sleep issues and reactive abuse. She said I internalized that his life,
activities, and choices were the most important in our home. And she said and
sent him the message that it was okay to ignore my needs.
And she said, I've had to learn to recognize what my responsibilities truly are
and ask for help when I need it and let go of the things that aren't that important.
And let me just take a moment here. When she said, I internalized that his life activities and choices were the most important in our home, and I sent the message that it was okay to ignore my own needs, this is one of the things that if you are struggling with, if I stay in an unhealthy relationship for the kids, and I understand that there are so much unknown out there, but I worry, as a therapist, as a podcaster, as somebody that works with this population so often, that I worry that this is the message that's being sent to the kids.
That if the, let's say in this scenario,
and I'm working with men that are in incredibly
unhealthy relationships with narcissistic and emotionally immature and abusive women,
which is a whole, again, I know I did an episode about it a few weeks ago,
but it's a whole different ballgame, and it is really scary because the man often
is not being given any benefit of a doubt.
But in this scenario, if you are buffering and trying to manage your husband's relationship
to protect the kids because you're worried that divorce will be bad for the kids.
These are the things that I worry. Again, a kid gets their external validation from their parents.
And so if the validation that they are going to have, if the validation that they are going to get,
is going to, in essence, be trying to learn how to navigate the emotions of a large adult human being
that is their parent that they are seeking to go to for guidance and for support and for safety,
then that's what it feels like to be them is gonna be someone that is learning how to read the room
and put their needs second and try to go small when the other person goes big.
But if you are developing a secure attachment with your kid,
which means that they're the ones that are actually going through and experiencing life
and you are there to say, tell me about it, how was it?
What was that like? Do you wanna keep doing that? Or what else are you thinking?
Instead of, I don't like that, I don't think you should do that,
I can't believe you're asking me of that, do you know how that affects me?
There's a lot of I's and me's there not the cool kind that are I worry or I wonder or I would like to know. So that
message being sent, again what breaks my heart is that the message we're sending
is that someone else's life, their activities and choices are far more important than mine.
And instead, it is not unhealthy, it is not narcissistic or egotistical to be able to have your thoughts, your needs, and your wants, and be able to express them, but to someone that's safe, because that's where it becomes a whole different experience.
She said, I've been shamed for spending too much money, and she said, I've had to account for whatever I buy when we have financial discussions, but I'm not supposed to ask anything about my spouse's purchase.
She said, even though we have Amazon packages coming to our home almost daily,
she said we have separate checking accounts, but he makes more money than I do and is always
questioning what I spend my money on, but is not forthcoming on how he spends his money.
She said I've learned not to ask about financial matters unless he is in the right mood and I'm
prepared to share my list of purchases. I'm still working on this one, but she said I've been asking
for financial information for months and I've decided that I need to budget my own money
appropriately for now. And again, it is well within your right to have the financial information.
It is well within your right to have a mutually reciprocal relationship where both of you are able to express concerns about money and purchases and be accountable for it and it's uncomfortable.
And that's again where I go back to a narcissist or an emotionally immature person is so prone to just dismiss and just run away from discomfort at all costs.
So, they don't want to have to admit that, yeah, you're right, sometimes I'm a little bit controlling about money, and other times I just spend. I'm impulsive.
Because that would be scary to say that, and it might be uncomfortable.
But that's what adult, mature human beings do in their conversations.
They say, check this out, I impulsively bought something again today.
Because if the other spouse is gonna say, oh man, tell me what that's like, I know I've been there before.
You know, I worry because I feel like we're, we struggle with the budget, but maybe we can get on the same page.
Can we hold ourselves? Can we work on this together? Can we deal with emotion in concert with each other, with another human being?
Because that is where growth occurs. Not in the hiding, not in the playing small.
There is no growth in the trying to manage someone else's emotions.
Or just trying to continually rid myself of discomfort by giving in to the needs of others.
The growth comes from feeling safe and secure as I express things that I'm going through for
the first time in my life and having somebody there empathetically caring and saying,
tell me more. And what's that like for you? Because then I get to say, man,
let me see what that is like for me. Let me do a little self-confrontation. Check this out.
Here's how I'm feeling now. And I never realized that. What's your experience?
And I'm not saying then the unicorn comes out and they point their horn behind a tree and there's a pot of gold.
It isn't that fictitious that these types of conversations and relationships, they do exist in the world.
So if that is not what you are having, you deserve to have better relationships and better conversations.
So here is where I almost just went with commandments. So the word commandments may still be used,
you may have read that in the title.
This person said, oh boy, okay, you can use all of the following.
So she said, you shall, shall never stop at Target because they disallowed Salvation Army bell ringers at Christmas.
Shall always buy American made, he checked my clothing for tags for years.
Shall never put any type of flavored coffee in the coffee maker.
Shall always wash all new clothing and bedding before use.
Shall never ask for things. This almost always was guaranteed by who you would not get them.
Shall not complain, because doing so indicates that you're not grateful.
Again, this is an adult human being in a marriage where the other adult human being is saying
this is how you must be.
And this is how our relationship needs to be framed. Just let that sink in.
Because that is not a way to build connection. But she has plenty more.
You shall not open the sunroof if he is in the car. You shall always check all of his pockets
before washing his clothes because he could have forgotten something.
You shall watch the salt. He monitored that like crazy. You shall get out of his chair.
Particularly the kids. He would walk up to the chair and stand there and wait.
You shall not open the bedroom window at night. You shall never tell anyone how many animals that we have.
You shall not expect anything from him.
He may or may not do what he said he would do. It depended on if he wanted to do that in the end,
and you shall not question.
Servers shall never be tipped.
TV or music shall be played at his preferred volume. If it was too loud for his liking,
then he would turn it off.
And if you wanted it louder and he did not, that was incorrect.
And if he wanted it down, you get the point.
So she said, is that enough? She said, oh my goodness, what a miserable situation.
So then someone else had chimed in and said, okay, maybe the title is gonna be
The False Commandments of Narcissism.
So I think that that does speak to this quite well.
Another person chimed in and said, the one that I still catch myself abiding by,
is How to Load the Dishwasher.
And I've already commented on this, I think, in previous episodes,
maybe even in the Death by a Thousand cuts.
But she said, it's funny how the rules were always for things that he felt were primarily my responsibility,
because of course he knew better how I should do everything.
And to that one, I did say, I have literally and probably shared with other people
that I could do an entire episode on narcissism and dishwashers.
She's in a new relationship and she said when her new partner was over,
he was helping her with the dishes.
And she says, because that's the thing that happens in healthy relationships without the expectation
of sex later, by the way.
He asked how I like things put in the dishwasher. And she said, I sat there dumbfounded.
And I thought, what's the angle? and then I told him about my ex's rules.
With the dishwasher. Somebody else then just also chimed in and said that they also said,
man, the dishwasher, why is this a thing? This is definitely how the rules played out in their home
as well. And then other people chimed in and said, what is it about the dishwasher? And so I think
that that is one of those things that it's just, it's because it's a simple thing that then someone
can criticize someone else about. When in reality, you can load or unload the dishwasher, to be,
honest, however you would like. Now, are there more efficient ways? First of all, let's define
efficiency. But even if that's the case, is your goal to get into a relationship so that you can
finally have your way and let somebody know how much better your way of loading or unloading
the dishwasher is? Because if that is your goal for the relationship, then I would love for you
to be able to make that clear maybe from the outset or from the onset of the relationship
that if somebody says, hey, what are your hopes and dreams? What do you want to get out of this?
Do we want to have kids? Do we want to be able to save together? Do we want to retirement?
Do you want to go on vacations?" And if he says, I would rather have somebody say at the beginning.
To be quite honest, I've got this whole idea around how a dishwasher should be loaded or unloaded.
And so that's really my goal is to find someone that is doing it wrong so that then I can correct
them and then they will then applaud me. And then I will feel like my life is complete,
which I don't think is going to be the case. Someone else said that a memory was sparked.
She said another rule of the household that they were not allowed to use their dishwasher at all.
Even though it was brand new, we had to hand wash everything. If we dared to use the dishwasher,
then there was a litany of complaints. The dishwashers are a waste of time. My family
had to wash our dishes, so your family should too. I'll drink from this cup, but I'll bet it's dirty
because you used the dishwasher because the dishwasher actually doesn't do a good job.
Or the dishwasher's too noisy. It is confusing, she said, which it wasn't, and I could go on.
And then more people chimed in about the dishwasher.
Someone else had commented and said the rules so many so unpredictable it felt like yet he would rail,
On work or outside sources that would have a preference not a policy that he would never follow those preferences himself,
She said the rules happen to be on the things that I did and not him,
The kids couldn't have donuts for breakfast because donuts aren't breakfast
But then on the days that he would go out Maybe a saturday morning and he would go out and run errands then he would get them donuts and other pastries
But that was different because it was the weekend and he didn't have a chance to interact with them often,
The kid should exercise a certain amount of time every day, but he would not put any effort into it
It was just a directive to me and I also happen to be working full-time She said he had preferences on everything that he passive aggressively let known and she said then I would hear about if I didn't follow,
the dog food for example needed to be left in the dog food bag and Sealed until I scooped out the food at the time that the dog was gonna eat,
Even though digging my hand in the bag would scratch my hand and whatever that would look like when I scooped the food.
She said he left for quite a while, an extended amount of time for work.
And she said, I started to feel rebellious and I started to break the rules.
She said, and it still made me feel so anxious.
She said therapy helped her realize how silly it all was from the outside.
And that's the vibe that I would love for you to get from this episode of how silly it is from the outside.
That I am an adult with a mind and opinion. I can make decisions and calls on my own
even without consulting my spouse's opinion.
And she said, I have no idea when I started to follow his rules
and I still catch myself following them without realizing it.
I'm taking it day by day for sure.
She said, I don't have to give him a full report of every bite that the kids have eaten today
because when I do, then I'm open for criticism.
I can buy and use a dog food bin since I'm the only one who feeds the dog and I prefer it that way.
She said, I can let the kids brush their teeth in the downstairs bathroom on occasion
even if my kid tells me that, well, dad wouldn't let me do that.
I can even give my kids mac and cheese for a second day in a row if that's how life is rolling that day
and the kids can even have a cinnamon roll for breakfast, even when it's not a weekend
and it's not something that he does.
To which somebody else commented that it's the directives, the rules that are expected to be enforced,
just not by the person giving the rules.
Just a few more. There's another person that I just, I really appreciate this take.
She said, this is why I'm even struggling to figure out how to have a healthy relationship with her new husband
and she's in a very healthy, happy relationship now.
She said, there are all these unwritten laws in my head about how marriage works based on my old neural pathways
recreated from a 20-year relationship with a narcissistic ex. She said it
seemed as if there was some sort of invisible exchange system that in order
to ask a favor of him I had to do something for him. If I wanted to have a
girl's night out, he needed a week away on a hunting trip. If I asked him to help
with some of the household duties, then I had to go out and do a big chunk of the
yard work. If I wanted to spend money on something for myself, then he got to buy
a new gun or something and she said she has just a million more examples of this.
And she said, I don't think I ever would have noticed how this is not a great foundation for a relationship, and how I did not feel like there was unconditional love.
She said, my husband now calls me out on it all the time, and calls me out, let me say it in a good way.
She said that he points out that there are just times in life when he is more available and will step up, and times when I am more available and then I can do more, and it's not an exchange system.
That love should not be conditional and full of unwritten laws and expectations of reciprocation all the time.
And I could not agree more. Other people chimed in and talked about how relatable that was. The silent, what's in it for me attitude is so real.
And then I just wanted to, I chimed in on this one and said it's something that shows up unconsciously in new relationships.
Because at that time when I was reading through this, this thread for the first time, I had had a session with somebody pretty recently
that it was just, they were worried about what they didn't know that they didn't know about relationships.
Entering a new one and the fact that they just felt so anxious about what are the things I don't know about a relationship.
And when you're in a healthy relationship, of course you don't know what you don't know, but you're going to discover together, which then the relationship is filled with curiosity, which is amazing.
She was very nice and chimed back in and said, it's interesting navigating a new healthy relationship with past unhealthy survival tendencies. And I really appreciated that phrase that she used.
She said, my eyes are wide open as I've learned a lot in this past year. And she said she hopes that she can use this understanding to reach out and help even more people navigate this unknown.
And I thought this was a really good take too.
Another person chimed in and said that they also felt that they were living from these rules.
And she said, I found myself guilting out of whenever her narcissistic ex-husband has the kids
and has an appointment, falls on his mornings or when he has the kids and that responsibility falls on him.
She said, even if I tend to everything else on their schedules, she said,
the one I'm feeling guilty about now is to drop off our son at a therapist,
then wait for 30 minutes with wifi, comfy sofas, good free coffee during a time
that he has a break in his work schedule.
She said here, the rule is everything to do with the children that does not involve a trampoline park
a swim park is mine to do, not his.
And I think that's one of the things that can be so difficult is you do want the best for your kids. And so, if there is a chance that your ex, and then we can stay in this scenario, whether it's the husband in the relationship with the immature woman, wife, or if it's the wife in the relationship with the immature husband, I feel like I could just continue to go on. There's so many. Let me just go through a speed round.
Someone else said, I can't believe what a chord this struck.
She said there were colors he didn't like, smells he couldn't stand, rules about candles, haircuts,
clothing, perfume, purses, my jewelry, how to make the bed, how to fold the laundry,
how to clean, the lights, the thermostat, the air conditioner, even how to sit on the furniture,
how to arrive early, how long to stay, how I talked on the phone, what I said to the neighbors,
the exhaust fan in the bathroom, the refrigerator, the car.
She said so many issues around the car.
There were rules about shopping for food, eating habits, rules for the curtains, no plants, no pets.
And she said, and I felt like I was always in trouble if family or guests violated his rules.
Somehow it was my responsibility and I would pay the price after they were gone.
She said, I swear I could go on for a week and still be reciting the rules.
I catch myself often these days realizing.
Did I get, she said, a lovely little, just a bit of pleasure every time I'm breaking one of his rules.
The enormity of how bad it was has never been a real eye-opener.
She said, I think I'd become so programmed that it was second nature, but never again.
And she said, my house now, my rules.
And then other people chimed in. One saying, I lived so many of these same rules
and I was made to pay if guests broke them.
I needed to contemplate this better. Someone else then chimed in and said, the smells.
She said, I can't use dry shampoo without him complaining about the smell.
Candles, forget about it unless it's pine scented.
If I wear perfume, he complains. If I put makeup on, it's who are you trying to impress?
I don't care how you look because I'm doing it for myself isn't enough and I could go on.
Another person said, he didn't like certain restaurants because their sweet tea was awful
but made our kids order water everywhere.
Showers should last no more than eight minutes, but he never was able to provide the data
of where the eight minutes came from.
Picky eaters were not allowed, but he could declare boldly what foods he refused to eat, such as oysters.
The menu of dinners for the week couldn't have too much rice or pasta,
but he was okay with potatoes.
And she said she grew up in an area where rice and pasta were the staple,
but then she also said, but that was part of what he despised of me being proud of my roots,
yet he was beyond proud of his.
So basically anything that a double standard to be attached to.
We'll go through a speed round and then we'll wrap this one up.
Another person said, had to buy his favorite brands or they were called poop brands.
If we weren't 15 minutes early, we were late. If I didn't dry out chicken, he would complain
that I was gonna make everybody sick with salmonella.
I couldn't turn the AC above 60 degrees for years even though I have Raynaud's and my
fingers would be numb with a sweatshirt and pants. Then he would proceed to get mad that
we wouldn't go to sleep naked because it was a freezing cold room. If I complained,
that meant I was ungrateful. I had to speak to him about feelings or important stuff at
the exact right time, not after work, not when he was hungry, and not before bed.
He made it clear that he liked all the girls' hair long, we couldn't cut it short. Also,
He didn't like it up. He didn't like it when I wore too much makeup or skinny jeans or capris.
We wanted time to go to bed early with him, but he wouldn't help get the kids ready to
bed for years. And when he finally did, he rushed them and made them upset before bed.
We had rules on how many nights he would prefer I stay up late versus I go to bed with him.
I was a night owl and he went to bed as the kids were going to bed.
The dog was never allowed upstairs because of his allergies, but he was the one who
insisted on getting the dog even though he knew he was allergic. So many rules around
air-conditioning haircuts spending money, but she said there were also other rules,
like if you're tired, go to bed without reading or else he gets mad at you about it.
Or if you say you're going to read, but you're on your phone, he gets mad about that.
Or if you say you're tired, then don't go to bed, he gets mad at you if you turn out the lights,
but if you go to bed with the lights on, then he gets mad that you didn't wait up for him.
Or he asks you a yes-no question that feels like a loaded agenda,
you have to guess the right answer, or he gets mad. And if you try a clarifying question,
he gets mad and barks, it's a yes or no question. Now, I read those as quickly as I could because
that's the confusion. That even if you try to slow down and stop and make sense of these things,
they're going to change. More people chimed in, you're so right, rules like when the movie is
over you have to stay in your seat and watch the credits until the credits are all the way done.
Somebody else chimed in and said, yep, that's one for me too. And another person did say,
reading all this made me realize something, that my husband is hyper vigilant about
not appearing controlling. That there are definitely examples of him having rules around
around kitchen cleaning, money, et cetera.
But she said, here's what's funny or weird about it. He uses himself as the standard
which I should be measuring myself.
He's under the impression that if he's doing or not doing something, I should be too.
This way, he doesn't think he's being controlling. For example, she said he decided to stop buying
his protein powder because of cost.
And so now he's recently berated me about not using mine.
His rationality, he stopped buying his, so I should too. Same happens with cleaning the kitchen. Now that he's cleaning it more,
everybody needs to be better about putting their dishes in the dishwasher right away,
even though he was never that diligent about the dishes when I was the one cleaning.
His control is super covert to me and like others have said, uses a great deal of guilt.
And even more so though, he puts rules on communication because that's less tangible
than him controlling how much money I spend. I'm not allowed to make faces when I talk,
no interrupting him in his long rants, don't be on my phone while he's talking,
act very interested but not too emotional. None of these rules apply to him and if I break one, then he uses that as an excuse to turn into a raging
teenager and say whatever harsh cruel things he wants. And while I feel we could go on and maybe we'll save this for a part two, but I'll wrap it up with
a comment that really did, I know I can use this phrase a lot, breaks my heart.
But one of the women in the group said, one thing that I really am having issues on learning in my brain, even though I'm still married, she said, is that my worth
or worthiness of love directly correlates with my productivity. If I do enough, things
are copacetic. If I'm not productive enough, I'm met with anger, tantrums, name-calling.
She said, my therapist is trying to really drill into me that my worth is not based on
productivity. And I think that's one of the challenges here. And people had chimed in
and related as well. One of the people said, I can really relate. When my therapist sent
me a copy of my treatment plan for therapy, the word busyness was highlighted and underlined.
That we're so much more than that, but it's so hard to undo, and we didn't become busy
producers in a vacuum. It was an important protector at some point, and maybe still is.
And I think that's one of the most, the largest challenges with this, the group of kind people
that are in these relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic people, whether again,
male, female, whatever the dynamic is, that you're a kind person trying to make sense
of things, trying to do enough because when you do, then that's some of the times where
you are met with some bit of validation. But then when these rules, these rules just continue
to change and they aren't enough and they are crazy making because you are absolutely
losing your sense of self, then that can be this position where you just start to feel
like I just can't make sense of anything because it's nonsense. So if you have additional examples
of these rules, send them to me. Contact at tonyoverbay.com and we'll do additional episodes
based off of this because I guarantee that there are going to be people that are going
to just resonate with this concept of these rules. These just double standard or passive
aggressive or do as I say, not as I do rules. And again, just know that if that's what you're
dealing with in your relationship, it's not an emotionally mature, healthy relationship
and it's okay for you to do things the way that you want to do them and especially to
be able to have conversations about this. So, I appreciate your time and I will see
next week on waking up to narcissism.
Music.