WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.760 Music. 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:10.809 Everybody, welcome to episode 65 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:10.809 --> 00:00:13.962 I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, 00:00:14.449 --> 00:00:16.240 and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast. 00:00:16.849 --> 00:00:25.089 And finally, at long last, Waking Up to Narcissism, the premium Q&A episode is available on Apple Podcasts. 00:00:25.849 --> 00:00:33.369 It is $4.99 a month, that's $4.99, and you will get access to a weekly private episode 00:00:33.369 --> 00:00:37.323 where I go into great detail answering the questions that have been sent in, 00:00:37.689 --> 00:00:40.015 and I have a lot of questions to go through. 00:00:40.369 --> 00:00:45.269 And if you have questions around narcissism, emotional immaturity, how it impacts you, 00:00:45.269 --> 00:00:50.052 your family, anything at all, please send that to contact at tonyoverbay.com, 00:00:50.409 --> 00:00:54.364 or you can send it through any of my social media accounts. 00:00:54.649 --> 00:00:59.849 And that's just a nice way to say as well, if you can go to the show notes 00:00:59.849 --> 00:01:02.214 and hit the link tree link in the show notes, 00:01:02.609 --> 00:01:11.069 and that has all the links to the various podcasts and a new Murder on the Couch promo trailer 00:01:11.069 --> 00:01:13.629 that is, I think, hilarious. 00:01:13.629 --> 00:01:18.649 Murder, or True Crime Meets Therapy, that is on there as well, and that is in the show notes, 00:01:18.649 --> 00:01:23.329 and you can also sign up for my newsletter, and there is where you will start to hear 00:01:23.329 --> 00:01:27.249 about a lot of very exciting podcasts and projects and courses. 00:01:27.952 --> 00:01:34.749 But let's, today, I'm gonna try to just get right the interview because I actually was going to sit on this interview for a few weeks. 00:01:35.424 --> 00:01:50.412 But it just it just resonated with me and my daughter alex who does the the editing of the podcast she had also shared that that was a really good interview and so i just felt a little bit impressed to run with it so my my guest today 00:01:50.700 --> 00:02:02.736 is dana killian and dana is an author she is written a number of books and they're available on audible we talk about that at the end of the podcast i think she is really good insight on her fiction. 00:02:03.123 --> 00:02:06.364 But this is a memoir and it's called Where the Shadows Dance. 00:02:06.787 --> 00:02:11.854 And stay with me here because we're on the Waking Up To Narcissism podcast. 00:02:11.854 --> 00:02:14.178 We're talking about narcissism or emotional immaturity. 00:02:14.619 --> 00:02:18.054 And her book though, and if I read off of the back cover, it says, 00:02:18.130 --> 00:02:19.832 He Got Sober, I Got Broken. 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:24.254 She said it would be easy to say Where the Shadows Dance is a memoir about a marriage, 00:02:24.254 --> 00:02:25.665 but a marriage is simply the setting. 00:02:26.097 --> 00:02:30.319 Deanna Killian dives deep into what we do for love, what we do because of love, 00:02:30.715 --> 00:02:35.847 how love can break us, how love can save us and how the most important love is the love we feel for ourselves, 00:02:36.333 --> 00:02:42.514 because without it, no other kind can be as rich. She says it's a raw, vulnerable exploration of 00:02:42.514 --> 00:02:47.074 the damage that secrets and lies inflict. Where the Shadows Dance is a story for every woman who 00:02:47.074 --> 00:02:51.954 has set herself aside because of someone else's needs seem greater. So that line right there. 00:02:52.674 --> 00:02:56.858 Every woman who has set herself aside because someone else's needs seem greater, 00:02:57.128 --> 00:03:00.018 And we can talk about the woman or the man. 00:03:00.378 --> 00:03:07.301 And I really feel like this story, even though she's talking about her husband and alcoholism, 00:03:07.706 --> 00:03:13.872 that it just so parallels the journey of so many people that are in these unhealthy relationships 00:03:14.232 --> 00:03:18.112 with emotionally immature or narcissistic people, whether it is men or women. 00:03:18.869 --> 00:03:23.834 But her story just resonates. And as an author, I just, when she sent the, 00:03:23.834 --> 00:03:26.403 I got an advanced copy of the book, and it is a phenomenal book. 00:03:26.845 --> 00:03:32.514 It's available for pre-order, so you can go to Amazon and pre-order it. Her website is full of 00:03:32.514 --> 00:03:36.994 some really amazing and wonderful information, but I'll have a link to the pre-order of the book in 00:03:36.994 --> 00:03:43.634 the notes. And you can also reach out to me if you have additional questions. I really enjoyed 00:03:43.634 --> 00:03:49.737 having her on and I was really intentional and let her know off the air and then we talked about it on the air. 00:03:50.214 --> 00:04:04.501 That i wanted to get to the interview i wanted to be a good interviewer i didn't wanna interrupt too much but i also wanted to really reframe a lot of the things that she was talking about with her battle with her her husband's alcoholism, 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:16.321 and her needing self care need to stand up for herself and i wanted to parallel that with the journey again of so many people that are in unhealthy relationships with narcissistic emotionally immature people. 00:04:16.780 --> 00:04:21.264 And I think that you'll just see the parallels fit perfectly and she's a wonderful guest. 00:04:21.264 --> 00:04:29.664 And so let's get to this interview with the author of Where the Shadows Dance, Dana Killian. 00:04:29.664 --> 00:04:37.664 Dana Killian, welcome to, and as I was sharing with you before, probably the virtual couch, 00:04:37.664 --> 00:04:40.864 waking up the narcissism, have a true crime meets therapy podcast. 00:04:40.864 --> 00:04:44.543 And I feel like your story is so good, I think that, welcome to the Virtual Couch Network. 00:04:44.824 --> 00:04:49.804 Let's put it that way. Thanks so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah, it's nice to have you. And my audience 00:04:49.804 --> 00:04:53.364 will know that I really like to just kind of go back and forth, but I actually wrote 00:04:53.419 --> 00:04:57.864 questions because I just feel like your story is so fascinating. And there's something that 00:04:57.864 --> 00:05:02.624 I actually heard in another interview that you gave where you talked about your journaling 00:05:02.624 --> 00:05:06.984 in addition to therapy. So there's a part of me that wants to just ease into your story 00:05:06.984 --> 00:05:12.664 by as a therapist, I applaud you for journaling. And I'm curious, what was that process like 00:05:12.664 --> 00:05:15.538 And how did it differ from you write fiction novels as well? 00:05:15.826 --> 00:05:20.525 I do. Yeah. Journaling was something I wasn't immediately drawn to. 00:05:20.714 --> 00:05:24.664 I had a therapist suggest it and my first reaction was horror. 00:05:25.134 --> 00:05:28.664 Tell me why. Why? Yeah. What came up for you? 00:05:28.664 --> 00:05:33.452 I was still at that place at that point of the fear of being discovered. 00:05:33.664 --> 00:05:37.664 My internal thoughts. I was still in the marriage at this point. 00:05:37.664 --> 00:05:44.300 I was still going through a great deal of pain and I wasn't ready to share. 00:05:45.044 --> 00:05:48.384 And I felt that that journal would be discovered. Oh, I see. 00:05:48.384 --> 00:05:50.692 And so it was a scary thing for me. 00:05:50.804 --> 00:06:03.924 But later on, I was in a different place. I was in a place of such emptiness that therapy was fine, but it really wasn't getting better. 00:06:02.233 --> 00:06:05.623 Loosening up all the stuff that kind of comes up in between, 00:06:05.623 --> 00:06:10.236 the things that you can't cover in an hour, the things that were just really for me, 00:06:10.403 --> 00:06:12.261 lots and lots of questioning. 00:06:12.363 --> 00:06:18.923 So I found a journal and I just started downloading and I don't have any other way to frame it 00:06:18.923 --> 00:06:22.560 other than downloading questions, pain, 00:06:22.763 --> 00:06:29.465 how I'm feeling without any purpose other than to get it out of my head and out of my heart. 00:06:30.323 --> 00:06:35.443 I love that. To get it out of your head, I often find that people are so afraid of, and you can 00:06:35.443 --> 00:06:39.123 have all kinds of yeah, buts, the yeah, but it will get discovered or yeah, but it will just go 00:06:39.123 --> 00:06:43.923 darker or yeah, but it will make me feel worse. And it sounds like you had those thoughts as well. 00:06:45.093 --> 00:06:55.043 Once I actually started journaling, I was really excited to do it. It felt like I'd found a release 00:06:55.043 --> 00:06:59.289 Wow. And I was less afraid of discovery at that point. 00:06:59.361 --> 00:07:08.363 Okay. There'd been a lot of other conversations and I knew that at that point I needed to worry about myself and I needed to worry about. 00:07:08.963 --> 00:07:13.643 Finding a way to deal with the pain and the emptiness that was inside me. And the journaling 00:07:13.643 --> 00:07:18.803 was something I was thrilled to do. And did that happen pretty quickly after you 00:07:18.803 --> 00:07:21.883 started the process or did that take a little... Okay. I love that. 00:07:21.883 --> 00:07:22.596 For me, it did. 00:07:22.883 --> 00:07:28.563 I'm going to cut this clip and then send it to every client that I have, everyone I will have in the future. 00:07:28.563 --> 00:07:34.103 So I appreciate you sharing that. You talked about that you needed to think more about or do that for yourself. 00:07:34.103 --> 00:07:37.603 And maybe that might be a nice transition into, I would love to just hear your story 00:07:37.648 --> 00:07:41.883 because part of the, where I felt like this would fit in the narcissism world or emotional 00:07:41.883 --> 00:07:46.603 immature world, I often identify this, there's author Ross Rosenberg that calls it the human 00:07:46.603 --> 00:07:52.843 magnet syndrome where there's a pathologically kind person who then is with a emotionally 00:07:52.843 --> 00:07:57.273 immature narcissistic person, and then it forms this human magnet where you've got the 00:07:57.403 --> 00:08:00.683 kind person continually caretaking, buffering, looking for it. 00:08:00.683 --> 00:08:04.083 And I'm curious, Dana, and maybe let's just let you tell your story, but I just wanted 00:08:04.083 --> 00:08:07.463 you to know that's what a lot of my listeners are probably coming at that from their own 00:08:07.463 --> 00:08:12.123 experiences being that pathologically kind or caretaker that is felt in this human magnet. 00:08:12.123 --> 00:08:15.205 So I'm curious if that was a similar feeling that you had. 00:08:15.898 --> 00:08:27.883 The quick version of my story is that I was in a 25-year marriage to a very high-functioning alcoholic. 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:32.661 He eventually went into inpatient treatment, did get sober at that point. 00:08:32.830 --> 00:08:36.559 He had therapy, but not rehab. 00:08:36.830 --> 00:08:42.830 While he was at rehab, I then learned another part of our story that I hadn't known. 00:08:42.959 --> 00:08:46.731 He had been living a secret life, a life of other women. 00:08:47.208 --> 00:08:50.830 Throughout our marriage, an unknown number. 00:08:51.565 --> 00:08:58.990 This is kind of where the journaling process comes in. as I was trying to deal with the whys of all of that. 00:08:58.990 --> 00:09:06.430 Because he'd gotten sober, he'd gotten sober for me, and now I've got this new hurt, this new problem, 00:09:06.430 --> 00:09:09.579 this new crushing blow to deal with. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.657 And journaling became a bigger part of my life at that point. 00:09:13.783 --> 00:09:16.511 And through the journaling, yes, I write fiction. 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:20.463 So through the journaling, I began to see that I did have a story. 00:09:21.687 --> 00:09:27.790 And that writing that story, at least for me, was a good way to gain perspective on what had happened in my life. 00:09:28.259 --> 00:09:34.570 Because as you and all your listeners know, when you were in the middle of trauma and pain, you can't see the big picture. 00:09:34.690 --> 00:09:36.343 No, not at all. Step away from it. 00:09:37.108 --> 00:09:42.090 And there was so much in that stage of questioning myself and questioning him. 00:09:43.643 --> 00:09:46.911 What has been real in my life? Yeah. 00:09:47.028 --> 00:09:52.007 And the journaling gave me that opportunity to see that I had a story there, 00:09:52.151 --> 00:09:57.970 But I didn't know, and a story that I needed to write, but writing a book is not the same 00:09:57.970 --> 00:09:58.749 as publishing a book. 00:09:59.550 --> 00:10:04.370 Okay. Talk about that. And so that's how I incrementally got into this process. 00:10:04.370 --> 00:10:09.210 So I decided to write and I wrote that awful, dirty first draft as we call it. 00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:14.330 And it was garbage and it was full of all this protective language. 00:10:14.330 --> 00:10:18.356 I tried to tell the story from the after. 00:10:18.896 --> 00:10:26.989 I tried to still, I used distancing language. I used every trick in the book to not face the reality, 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:29.483 of, and not to not say at all. 00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:32.690 Dan, at that point, did you feel, was it a, I didn't know what I didn't know, 00:10:32.690 --> 00:10:36.690 or I wasn't willing to confront, or were you aware that I am doing this 00:10:36.690 --> 00:10:38.710 because I don't want to get that close? 00:10:39.050 --> 00:10:45.687 I was not aware that I was doing it after that draft was done, and I read it and went, 00:10:46.490 --> 00:10:50.070 Oh no, this is not working. 00:10:51.070 --> 00:10:57.291 I can't do this if I am not as real and raw and honest as I can be. 00:10:57.710 --> 00:11:02.950 I mean, I can write it, but it's just therapy for me. I'm gonna do something else with this. 00:11:02.950 --> 00:11:04.745 And I had to make that decision. 00:11:05.350 --> 00:11:13.315 The only way that it made any sense or had any value to me in the long run and to other people in the near term 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:18.275 was that I had to find a way to be as vulnerable and raw and human. 00:11:18.996 --> 00:11:25.765 And full of flaws and embarrassment as I could. And I had to tell it from the truth. 00:11:25.891 --> 00:11:29.006 I'm probably just making assumptions, but as a fiction writer, 00:11:29.060 --> 00:11:34.286 I often assume that someone who writes fiction, there's a lot of their story or truth in those 00:11:34.286 --> 00:11:39.246 characters, or is that the case with your regular books? And then was there a point 00:11:39.246 --> 00:11:42.743 where you thought about turning this story into a fictional story? 00:11:43.149 --> 00:11:47.406 Those are really good questions. Yes. In my fiction, there are small parts of me. 00:11:48.190 --> 00:11:55.686 And interestingly enough, there are small parts of that I wish I had. I could make my character a 00:11:55.686 --> 00:12:02.126 little more confident, a little bolder, a little more persistent than I was because some of this, 00:12:02.126 --> 00:12:07.846 a lot of the most difficult parts of the drinking stage were happening as I was writing these books. 00:12:07.914 --> 00:12:15.406 So my real life inched in, but I couldn't admit to that. It's not a hundred percent representation, 00:12:15.406 --> 00:12:22.766 but small parts of who I was and who I wanted to be came in. Did I ever think about fictionalizing 00:12:22.766 --> 00:12:27.886 my personal story? Not for a second. Okay. I love that. I like what you said a minute ago, 00:12:27.886 --> 00:12:33.086 where even though this story is going to be raw and vulnerable and full of flaws, and you will 00:12:33.086 --> 00:12:36.606 most likely be open to others saying, well, why didn't you? And I don't know if you've already 00:12:36.606 --> 00:12:42.206 had that reaction. I've had. One of the things that, again, you know very well is that there's 00:12:42.206 --> 00:12:44.391 there's so much silence around addiction. 00:12:44.806 --> 00:12:49.747 Yes, silence that we feel guilt and we feel remorse and shame. 00:12:49.927 --> 00:12:54.041 And we're just trying to be silent to protect ourselves and to protect others. 00:12:54.186 --> 00:12:58.646 And so as I've begun to talk about this book, you know, and I was no different, 00:12:58.646 --> 00:13:01.180 I was very silent about what was going on. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.744 But as I was beginning to share parts of my story with people who knew me, 00:13:07.126 --> 00:13:09.246 The thing I heard is, I wish I had known. 00:13:09.957 --> 00:13:14.767 I could have helped you. I could have done something for you. But by that time that comes 00:13:14.767 --> 00:13:19.407 along, there's so much silence. The story is too big. You don't know how to break it 00:13:19.407 --> 00:13:23.887 down. It's almost better, easier for me to say, here, just read my book. 00:13:23.887 --> 00:13:28.207 Oh, I bet. Okay. So what I'm hearing Dana say is everyone that has gone there, I mean, 00:13:28.207 --> 00:13:31.727 I really would, the journaling process alone, if you looked at it, if someday it would become 00:13:31.727 --> 00:13:36.694 a book, whatever it would take, I think, to get that written out, I think is such a good message. That is. 00:13:36.838 --> 00:13:38.527 It's immensely freeing. 00:13:39.098 --> 00:13:42.127 And that was, that was a wonderful surprise to me. 00:13:42.789 --> 00:13:48.327 And as I've spoken to people who have been in difficult situations and who say, 00:13:48.327 --> 00:13:52.567 gosh, I I've thought about writing a book. I, I just say, write it. 00:13:52.736 --> 00:13:53.967 You don't have to publish it. 00:13:54.357 --> 00:13:56.967 Take it in little steps, get that stuff out of you. 00:13:59.353 --> 00:14:04.687 How many years into your marriage was that moment where you found out this about the second life? 00:14:05.231 --> 00:14:11.007 We were 20 years in 20 years in. Okay. And then you stayed at another five. Is that how 00:14:11.007 --> 00:14:17.327 long? Yeah. Um, there were, we made two attempts at divorce. Um, okay. Okay. This is devastating 00:14:17.327 --> 00:14:23.767 information in marriage. And I was in this, I was in shock. I was curled up in a ball 00:14:23.767 --> 00:14:29.898 on the floor for a year at least. And there was an eventual attempt at divorce, but there. 00:14:31.647 --> 00:14:37.379 Was still so much love between us, which sounds bizarre, even as I'm saying it about myself, 00:14:37.587 --> 00:14:43.147 but there was, and we hadn't played out all of that love. We hadn't played out all of 00:14:43.147 --> 00:14:48.787 the work that he had done in getting sober to try to keep me in his life. 00:14:49.198 --> 00:14:52.427 Well, and I would love to talk about that. And I feel like I do, I hear you with that. 00:14:52.427 --> 00:14:56.367 And I think a lot of the people on the, I mentioned off air that I have this private 00:14:56.367 --> 00:15:00.347 women's Facebook group for women in relationships with emotionally mature or narcissistic. And 00:15:00.347 --> 00:15:04.430 I say fill in the blank, it can be a spouse, it can be an adult child, it can be a parent. 00:15:04.767 --> 00:15:09.987 And there's that just dance, the trauma bond, the, but there are good times. And so we want 00:15:09.987 --> 00:15:15.327 to look at those. So when you say we tried to divorce in that world of emotional maturity 00:15:15.327 --> 00:15:19.087 or narcissism, when somebody gets to the point there where they say I'm done, you know, I 00:15:19.087 --> 00:15:23.027 feel like, man, none of us like to sit with that discomfort. And so we want that relief. 00:15:23.027 --> 00:15:27.087 And sometimes all it takes, I noticed as a partner to say, Hey, I get it and I, and I'm 00:15:27.087 --> 00:15:31.667 going to change. And now that makes that person feel better. And then the person who is fed 00:15:31.667 --> 00:15:35.667 up feels relief. And I'm curious, was that playing out as well? 00:15:35.667 --> 00:15:43.387 Absolutely. I think that when you've had a partner for so many years and the most important 00:15:43.387 --> 00:15:50.279 thing, the thing that makes you safest is to be in his arms. How do you walk away from. 00:15:51.377 --> 00:15:57.307 Or it's difficult to walk away. You love this person for a reason. And part of being in an 00:15:57.307 --> 00:16:02.907 addictive relationship is that you do understand, you're forced to understand the compartmentalization, 00:16:03.566 --> 00:16:11.787 that addicts are masters at. And so they put their drinking in a box over on the side, 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:19.547 and the whole of who they are is not the booze. It's not the bad behavior. 00:16:20.742 --> 00:16:24.267 Yeah. So of course you're going to look for that, but here's this good. And would that 00:16:24.267 --> 00:16:28.322 be the, when I talk about the pathologically kind, I feel like it's in one's nature to, 00:16:28.827 --> 00:16:32.907 want to just not focus on the negative, but in you and be the cheerleader and you can 00:16:32.907 --> 00:16:37.406 do this and I see you and would you, were you that role at all in the marriage? 00:16:38.243 --> 00:16:43.787 I had part of that role, certainly. I think, I think we all do. Again, this is, this is 00:16:43.787 --> 00:16:49.627 someone we love. And we know the reasons we love them. And we also have this sense of 00:16:49.627 --> 00:16:58.027 responsibility that if I leave, he's going to die. At its bottom line, we take on some 00:16:58.027 --> 00:17:01.307 responsibility. But what we don't see is that. 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:10.170 If we stay, we are dying. We're dying emotionally. And it is this dance until one of you breaks. 00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:13.210 And it's a question of who's going to break first. 00:17:13.649 --> 00:17:17.290 It is. And I talk often about the, there's a book about trauma. I don't know if you're 00:17:17.290 --> 00:17:20.890 familiar. It's called The Body Keeps the Score by Vessel Vander Kalk. And that's where I feel 00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:26.090 like when the person who is losing their sense of self continues to go back in and say, we can do 00:17:26.090 --> 00:17:31.050 this, eventually their body says we can't. So let's give you some anxiety, depression, 00:17:31.050 --> 00:17:36.250 high blood pressure, hypertension, let's throw some chronic pain in there and whatever that 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:40.890 takes. But the person says, man, I, but I love this person or we can make this work. So did you 00:17:40.890 --> 00:17:45.904 feel ever physical symptoms like that? Absolutely. I had moments where I was passing out. 00:17:46.318 --> 00:17:52.043 Oh man. I was losing my hair. I had thyroid problems. Yeah, absolutely. There is there. 00:17:52.629 --> 00:17:59.530 You cannot be in a long-term chronic stress situation and not have physical effects. 00:18:00.326 --> 00:18:03.730 And I really do believe, you know, I like to say the brain is a don't get killed device. 00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:07.330 So it's trying to say, this is not okay. This is not working. 00:18:07.473 --> 00:18:11.250 But I like when you mentioned, I mean, it's again, like is the wrong word at times, but 00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:14.590 as a therapist that wants people to feel heard and seeing that when you talked about that 00:18:14.590 --> 00:18:19.870 compartmentalization and just last night I run a men's group for addiction and we really 00:18:19.870 --> 00:18:23.821 have been focusing lately on in that moment when the person says, I will never do it again. 00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:25.712 Again, it relieves that discomfort. 00:18:26.010 --> 00:18:28.170 Their partner also is so grateful to hear that. 00:18:28.610 --> 00:18:33.650 So everybody feels good, but then they will never do it again until they do it again because 00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:37.610 once they get out of that discomfort, then that's where the work needs to occur. 00:18:37.610 --> 00:18:41.530 And I feel like that's the, but the person feels good now. I'm not, I'm not going to do it again. 00:18:41.530 --> 00:18:44.050 And then if the spouse says, okay, but what are you going to do about it? 00:18:44.050 --> 00:18:46.910 Then all of a sudden they're caretaking or they're feeling like they're overstepping 00:18:46.910 --> 00:18:51.890 their bounds. Would you have those moments where you would, I don't want to say demand, but really ask 00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:54.870 him for recovery or what was that like? 00:18:55.158 --> 00:18:57.970 Well, for us, there were just, there were kind of two stages. 00:18:57.970 --> 00:19:03.810 It was what was happening when I thought our only problem was the alcohol. 00:19:05.421 --> 00:19:09.706 And there was never a, I will never drink again conversation. 00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:11.831 It was, I will go to therapy. 00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:15.792 I'm going to, I commit to doing this. Let me do this on my own. 00:19:16.190 --> 00:19:24.659 If I can't make this work, I will do rehab. And that continued and he was honoring his promises. 00:19:24.890 --> 00:19:27.927 And of course there's always, oh, there it goes again. 00:19:28.350 --> 00:19:29.817 And the drinking becomes secret. 00:19:30.570 --> 00:19:38.225 Okay. And we reached a point where he only went into rehab when I said, you have a choice. 00:19:38.585 --> 00:19:40.539 You can have me or you can have vodka. 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:48.065 Okay. That's when he went to rehab and he did get sober. So then our second stage was more, 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:50.072 I will never hurt you again. 00:19:51.045 --> 00:19:58.480 And that was the sexual behavior. But there were lots of other, I had more guardrails, I guess, around that behavior. 00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:00.227 I was far more cautious. 00:20:00.335 --> 00:20:06.645 I was far more distrustful. I had a private investigator ready. I had a post-nup. 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:10.735 I had all of these things in place. 00:20:11.282 --> 00:20:21.175 And every time I erupted in any kind of fear, jealousy, concern, outrage, whatever it was. 00:20:21.775 --> 00:20:23.849 He behaved exactly as he should have. 00:20:24.215 --> 00:20:28.269 He was humble. He was contrite. He was empathetic. 00:20:28.535 --> 00:20:35.095 There was a shift in him once he got sober and Booz wasn't controlling his brain. 00:20:35.095 --> 00:20:37.964 He could then see some of these other behaviors. 00:20:38.135 --> 00:20:43.575 So I was still in this back and forth, what do I believe? What do I trust? 00:20:43.575 --> 00:20:50.360 What do I want for that five-year period of why am I doing this? 00:20:50.775 --> 00:20:55.060 What kind of woman stays with a man who has been a serial cheater? 00:20:55.429 --> 00:21:02.478 That was part of it and part of my own self-analysis and professional analysis too. 00:21:02.865 --> 00:21:06.925 Well, and I so appreciate your vulnerability here because I know it's going to speak to 00:21:07.015 --> 00:21:10.915 to so many people that are going through things like this and they go to the, what's wrong 00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:14.195 with me? And then I often just say, man, we don't know what we don't know. And then we 00:21:14.195 --> 00:21:17.795 find out, but we don't know what to do about it. And then we eventually do more than we 00:21:17.795 --> 00:21:22.115 don't. And then finally we become, and I know that sounds maybe a little bit out there, 00:21:22.535 --> 00:21:26.555 but that process I feel can take as long as it takes yet another cliche. But do you feel 00:21:26.555 --> 00:21:32.235 like there was a certain point where something just turned or clicked or you had made a decision 00:21:32.235 --> 00:21:35.543 or was that more of just this gradual shading of lived experience? 00:21:36.605 --> 00:21:46.035 Well, as I said, we made two attempts at divorce. Yeah. The first attempt, I think the way I sum it up most succinctly is there was just simply 00:21:46.035 --> 00:21:47.183 too much love. 00:21:47.275 --> 00:21:49.956 We had not played out enough of the... 00:21:50.937 --> 00:21:57.987 Who are you after? Okay. Is there something that we can, you know, salvage isn't quite the right word, but is 00:21:57.987 --> 00:22:01.271 there something that can be made anew? 00:22:01.707 --> 00:22:07.187 Is there anything there worth? So it was a cautious stage. 00:22:07.187 --> 00:22:13.082 And I went through a great deal of time of having second thoughts, packing a bag, moving 00:22:13.307 --> 00:22:16.907 out for a few days. It was torture. 00:22:17.169 --> 00:22:22.887 But every single time he did exactly what I would have hoped, he had become a different 00:22:22.887 --> 00:22:26.532 kind of man, a different kind of husband to me in that stage. 00:22:27.027 --> 00:22:38.467 I'm still in this place of questioning myself. And the big impetus for me to really see how empty I had become was when COVID hit. 00:22:38.467 --> 00:22:42.637 There was nothing else in our lives to distract. 00:22:43.227 --> 00:22:50.667 We simply were forced to be with each other, no diversion, and to look at, I had to look 00:22:50.667 --> 00:22:57.770 at the relationship and my own life and my own self in a very different way without anything 00:22:58.007 --> 00:22:59.696 else in the way. 00:23:00.167 --> 00:23:06.667 And that's when I realized that although I think I want this relationship to find a path 00:23:06.667 --> 00:23:11.561 forward, I was never going to get back to that place where I had adored this man. 00:23:12.083 --> 00:23:16.188 I know he's doing everything that he can to try to keep me in his life. 00:23:16.387 --> 00:23:19.510 He's doing everything I could have asked of him as a husband at that point. 00:23:19.667 --> 00:23:21.986 I see. Okay. For me. 00:23:22.814 --> 00:23:33.266 Yeah. But I was utterly empty. I opened my book with a scene where I'm standing from a 13th floor window, looking down on, 00:23:33.867 --> 00:23:39.486 Lake Michigan, wondering what it would feel like to stand on the edge of the water and just slip in. 00:23:40.134 --> 00:23:45.227 I wouldn't have done it. wasn't dead, I was suicidal. But to even have those thoughts, 00:23:45.227 --> 00:23:50.379 because you're just so empty, nothing, You're desperate to feel something. 00:23:51.306 --> 00:23:59.039 That was what was the shift and the switch in me that said, this isn't the future I want. Yeah. 00:23:59.741 --> 00:24:04.196 I want something better. I need something better for me. Yes. I still love this man. I don't love 00:24:04.196 --> 00:24:10.634 him the way I did. And we have played out everything we could play out in trying to save, 00:24:11.012 --> 00:24:15.876 protect, rebuild, however you want to call it. Absolutely. A relationship that was really 00:24:15.876 --> 00:24:17.876 really largely wonderful. 00:24:18.187 --> 00:24:26.596 So, yeah, I love the booze. Right. And I love that story because that really is, that is at the end of the day, 00:24:26.596 --> 00:24:30.756 trusting your gut and doing something that is, is scary and difficult because it would 00:24:30.756 --> 00:24:35.996 have been easier to just say, okay, I guess I'll remain numb, but at least he's trying. 00:24:35.996 --> 00:24:39.836 I mean that, that kind of a, yeah, no, I'm grateful to hear that. Cause I feel like a 00:24:39.836 --> 00:24:46.276 A lot of the people I work with are in, they're in some really unhealthy relationships and 00:24:46.276 --> 00:24:53.836 feel that same flatness or apathetic state, but then feel like, well, I guess that's just my lot in life. 00:24:53.953 --> 00:24:58.236 And the people that have the courage, I think, and that's maybe a strong word, but to go 00:24:58.236 --> 00:25:01.996 through with what you went through, I think, how are you now? 00:25:01.996 --> 00:25:05.596 What do you, I guess, what advice would you give to somebody in that scenario? 00:25:05.596 --> 00:25:13.236 Well, that's part of why I wrote this book because I felt that one, I need personally, 00:25:13.236 --> 00:25:19.204 I needed to heal and speaking about everything I'd experienced would help me heal. 00:25:19.956 --> 00:25:25.596 But publishing a book would help other people who have been in this situation. 00:25:25.596 --> 00:25:32.036 Sometimes we need someone else. We need to see it through someone else's eyes in a very personal way to understand 00:25:32.036 --> 00:25:34.445 that it's okay to take a little step. 00:25:34.676 --> 00:25:39.855 I have spoken to a lot of women who have had addictive relationships. 00:25:40.196 --> 00:25:45.023 And the one thing every single one of them says to me is, I regret my silence. 00:25:45.887 --> 00:25:49.836 For as long as I was silent. We do it to protect our families. 00:25:49.836 --> 00:25:55.976 We do it for very good reasons, but ultimately that silence destroys us. 00:25:55.976 --> 00:26:02.516 So my advice to anybody, whether you're in the relationship still and trying to figure 00:26:02.516 --> 00:26:07.316 out if you should stay or you are out of the relationship and still dealing with the guilt 00:26:07.316 --> 00:26:13.396 and the regret is start first with how do I give up my silence? 00:26:13.396 --> 00:26:14.396 Who can I talk to? 00:26:15.189 --> 00:26:17.026 And, you know, a therapist is great. 00:26:17.809 --> 00:26:23.299 But a therapist is not the same as facing your sister and having her look at you with 00:26:23.435 --> 00:26:26.811 pity and horror and you did what? 00:26:27.179 --> 00:26:32.645 They're not what I found as I've spoken to people, people close to me who did not know. 00:26:33.219 --> 00:26:37.209 They feel bad that they didn't know. They feel bad that they couldn't help me. 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:45.347 And they are, for whatever judgment I thought might've been there in their eyes, it's not there. 00:26:45.581 --> 00:26:54.339 That was just me projecting it. That was me protecting myself. We cannot love another 00:26:54.339 --> 00:27:01.299 human being if we do not love ourselves. We can't have a decent relationship with anyone 00:27:01.470 --> 00:27:07.939 if we don't love ourselves first. And this for me is part of going back to that place of. 00:27:08.951 --> 00:27:14.419 I have to love myself. I have to be healthy myself. I have to be emotionally strong myself. 00:27:14.419 --> 00:27:25.419 And then the rest of the world will follow. And coming to the understanding that my husband's bad behavior, his drinking and his sexual behavior, they were not about me. 00:27:25.419 --> 00:27:29.341 They were a hole inside of him that he was trying to fill. 00:27:29.881 --> 00:27:35.419 And he filled it in terrible ways. He did. And his hole was he did not believe he deserved to be loved. 00:27:35.419 --> 00:27:41.278 He didn't deserve my love. And then he just acted it out. He played it out. He made it true. 00:27:41.467 --> 00:27:43.159 And there's some... 00:27:43.952 --> 00:27:48.757 Comfort for me in understanding that. Because we take it personally. 00:27:49.317 --> 00:27:53.757 We do. And, boy, can I ask you a quick question on, I love what you said about, because I 00:27:53.757 --> 00:27:58.382 think we are so afraid if we share with people that we will be judged or there will be a 00:27:58.757 --> 00:28:02.757 lot of negative comments made. And I will say that to the narcissism or emotionally 00:28:02.757 --> 00:28:07.222 immature group, I've done a couple of episodes on what are called Switzerland friends. And, 00:28:07.757 --> 00:28:10.757 what that is, is when someone does open up to someone and they say, well, there's two 00:28:10.757 --> 00:28:14.757 there's two sides in every story, or I'm sure that, and that's where we talk about, if that 00:28:14.757 --> 00:28:19.197 is someone, then that isn't someone that maybe is the safest person to share with. But when 00:28:19.197 --> 00:28:22.797 you find someone that is going to say, tell me more, or I wish I would have known, or 00:28:22.797 --> 00:28:25.839 I could have helped. Did you run into any of those Switzerland type friends? 00:28:26.117 --> 00:28:35.957 I didn't personally, but there are, I understand where some of that came from as I've spoken 00:28:35.957 --> 00:28:41.157 other women, particularly when it comes, my husband was a very high functioning alcoholic. 00:28:41.157 --> 00:28:47.477 And like a lot of high functioning alcoholics, very smart, very successful, very charismatic. 00:28:48.117 --> 00:28:57.397 And so this is not the image that the world sees of him. And so as we began to tell close friends. 00:28:58.265 --> 00:29:02.437 They kind of minimized the drinking. They minimized it as that's not the guy I see. 00:29:03.037 --> 00:29:07.114 Can't you just stop? It really must not be as big of a deal as you make it out to be. 00:29:07.664 --> 00:29:11.787 Yeah. And that's where I like what you're saying, but at some point, you know, you know what you know. 00:29:12.337 --> 00:29:16.237 And, and I love that message. I have a couple of things from your book that I want to talk about. 00:29:16.237 --> 00:29:21.137 And so that reminds me of one, if I'm going to go not in the order, but where the shadows dance a memoir. 00:29:21.455 --> 00:29:24.617 I've read a lot of it and I have to tell you, Dan, a lot of times when I do the interviews, 00:29:24.617 --> 00:29:27.577 I want to just do a quick skim, but it's a really good read. 00:29:27.577 --> 00:29:31.977 And I think I'm just seeing so many things that parallel this human magnet syndrome, 00:29:31.977 --> 00:29:36.183 that are trying to get out of these unhealthy, emotionally immature, narcissistic relationships. 00:29:36.617 --> 00:29:39.817 But when you just said when people would say, that's not the person I see, there's a, let 00:29:39.817 --> 00:29:41.817 me pull this up. and I'll see you next time. 00:29:41.521 --> 00:29:46.331 There's a toward the end, you have a, I should have marked the chapter, but it was where 00:29:46.331 --> 00:29:51.280 you were going to see your dad about your mystery boyfriend. 00:29:51.731 --> 00:29:56.528 And I just, I love that. So I did, I wrote this down where I, you know, he said, I must have a boyfriend. 00:29:56.811 --> 00:30:00.671 Your elderly father, he was unable to comprehend the divorce even years after the incidents 00:30:00.671 --> 00:30:05.755 that caused it. And then the quote, you said your father has concocted the only explanation that seems logical to him. 00:30:06.091 --> 00:30:09.371 I'm running off with another man. And I would love to hear that, what that was like. 00:30:09.371 --> 00:30:13.851 Your sister reacted and said, Dad, you know what he did? And again, bless your dad's heart. 00:30:13.851 --> 00:30:17.531 Because I feel like this is what people, you know, we don't know. It's like to sit with discomfort. 00:30:17.531 --> 00:30:21.691 So I like when you said he concocted the only explanation that I often say, oh, we create a 00:30:21.691 --> 00:30:27.131 narrative to fit our view. But then your dad said, yeah, but that was a while ago. I just don't 00:30:27.131 --> 00:30:32.011 understand. So yeah, what was that like? And I mean, that whole dynamic, because it sounds like, 00:30:32.011 --> 00:30:34.671 you know, you were there taking care of your dad. What an admirable thing. 00:30:35.238 --> 00:30:40.432 Yeah. It was at a stage that my father was very elderly, needing a lot of physical help. 00:30:40.971 --> 00:30:43.907 He was a man of the John Wayne era. 00:30:44.015 --> 00:30:51.811 I love that description. Where you don't talk about your feelings. And this idea that I must be running off for 00:30:51.811 --> 00:30:58.941 another man. And this, to give some context, was after the real divorce and I was leaving. 00:30:59.371 --> 00:31:04.751 And not only did I leave my marriage, but I moved cross-country to Tucson. 00:31:05.314 --> 00:31:07.311 And he just was dumbfounded. 00:31:09.104 --> 00:31:18.747 He couldn't say any of it to me. He could only say it to my sister because again, men of that era don't know how to discuss 00:31:18.747 --> 00:31:19.747 emotions. 00:31:19.747 --> 00:31:25.547 And if I can't explain it to him in about a two second, maybe two minutes, it just didn't 00:31:25.547 --> 00:31:31.646 mean anything to him. So he was just grasping for straws, completely unfounded. 00:31:31.961 --> 00:31:35.947 When I sense that in the book, which that's why I really feel like it's the story so well 00:31:35.947 --> 00:31:40.427 told because I talk about this concept of this nonviolent communication where we make 00:31:40.427 --> 00:31:44.187 an observation and a judgment in an instant to try to make sense of the world. 00:31:44.187 --> 00:31:50.893 And so I think that is such a good explanation of that. And I almost feel like that's one of those tests of where you're at as a individual, 00:31:51.067 --> 00:31:53.710 if it can be all bless his heart, you know, trying to make sense of that. 00:31:54.067 --> 00:31:57.347 Is that, and I felt that that was the case. Exactly. 00:31:57.347 --> 00:32:01.669 At that point in his life, you know, he's an elderly man, he's set in his ways. 00:32:01.750 --> 00:32:05.027 I was not going to be able to convince him of anything. 00:32:05.143 --> 00:32:10.787 Thing. And I loved it. I feel like it must have been, was that nice to see your sister, you know, but you don't 00:32:10.787 --> 00:32:15.027 understand. So I feel like you got to see your sister care and your dad bless his heart and you 00:32:15.027 --> 00:32:17.787 know, I think I'm good. And I mean, that's what I was imagining. 00:32:17.963 --> 00:32:23.787 Yes, that's, that was exactly it. It was at a point in time that all of the hard decisions had been made. 00:32:23.787 --> 00:32:27.487 There was still a great deal of healing to happen on my heart, in my heart. 00:32:27.707 --> 00:32:33.067 But yeah, a lot of the family expectation and the dynamic of who's going to judge me 00:32:33.067 --> 00:32:38.987 and my family, what can I say, what can't I say? I had already shed that. I was firm 00:32:38.987 --> 00:32:43.627 in my convictions of what I was doing and I didn't really need them to understand. 00:32:44.429 --> 00:32:48.427 That's powerful right there, Dana. I mean, and that's, I think, when I work with people and 00:32:48.427 --> 00:32:52.667 whenever that shift occurs or when that happens that it's, you know, again, and I say that's 00:32:52.667 --> 00:32:57.707 adorable, like that concern they show and they look really angry and those are a lot of words. 00:32:57.816 --> 00:33:02.987 And so, but I'm good. Thank you. You know, and I just, I sensed that in your book kind of going 00:33:02.987 --> 00:33:06.827 then out of order. There was another part chapter 19 and I, there was a couple of things here, 00:33:06.827 --> 00:33:11.707 rebellion, your 25th anniversary passes. And I love how you said, okay, at first I'm okay. 00:33:11.850 --> 00:33:16.864 And as a therapist, I'm so fascinated by some people, they, oh my gosh, this date is going to, 00:33:17.324 --> 00:33:21.267 hang forever. And other people get past the date and they think, well, it wasn't so bad. And, 00:33:21.591 --> 00:33:25.307 and I love that yours I'm reading. And at first it was like, Hey, that wasn't so bad. And then 00:33:25.426 --> 00:33:31.467 418 in the morning. So, and I do have a quote from you that I really thought was good, but 00:33:31.467 --> 00:33:33.947 what was that like? I mean, do you remember that? 00:33:34.293 --> 00:33:39.947 I do remember that. I remember that very well. It was at a stage where I was caretaking for 00:33:39.947 --> 00:33:46.427 my father. I'm in this limbo stage where we are processing the divorce. I'm caring for 00:33:46.427 --> 00:33:52.107 my father. I'm in Northern Wisconsin. I don't want to be there. I don't have a home. I don't 00:33:52.107 --> 00:33:55.807 know what my life and my future are going to be. 00:33:56.582 --> 00:34:02.507 And I was back in this place of caring for another man who needed help, who was frail 00:34:02.507 --> 00:34:04.270 and that's right. lesson. 00:34:05.396 --> 00:34:10.329 Here I am repeating myself. And my father also had started drinking at that point in his life 00:34:10.653 --> 00:34:18.294 in an unhealthy way. So it was a stage where I'm trying to sort through lots of complex emotions, 00:34:18.944 --> 00:34:25.174 on my end, also feeling kind of frozen and stuck on where I couldn't move forward in my life yet. 00:34:26.056 --> 00:34:33.574 And so my emotions were really a lot of rollercoastering, not stuck in the pain moments 00:34:33.574 --> 00:34:41.254 largely. So I'm balancing out excitement for what could be and then, damn it, I'm dragged back into 00:34:41.254 --> 00:34:47.414 the past. And like anybody who's in some kind of traumatic, stressful situation, sleep can be 00:34:47.414 --> 00:34:56.294 elusive. And to wake up at four o'clock in the morning and go, here I am. Here I am. And if you 00:34:56.294 --> 00:35:03.174 remember from that moment, I just, okay, I grabbed my computer and I just started downloading all the 00:35:03.174 --> 00:35:05.774 the garbage that was in my head. 00:35:05.774 --> 00:35:10.054 Which again, I'm implying all these powerful therapeutic principles on you, whether you 00:35:10.054 --> 00:35:14.362 know it or not. And so that's why I love the, I'm okay, now I'm not. 00:35:14.534 --> 00:35:18.654 And then I do, because I say constantly when we ruminate and beat ourselves up and what's 00:35:18.654 --> 00:35:22.077 wrong with me, we're looking for this certainty we won't find. 00:35:22.394 --> 00:35:26.686 So then I always say, yeah, those are noted and now do. 00:35:27.134 --> 00:35:28.505 And you did, and you did. 00:35:29.014 --> 00:35:32.988 There's a quote that I really liked and you said, they say that time heals all wounds. 00:35:33.474 --> 00:35:37.614 Does it heal or simply blunt the pain, the ache instead of becoming a constant road that 00:35:37.614 --> 00:35:41.714 we no longer distinguish from the other roars, our roar, constant roar that we no longer 00:35:41.714 --> 00:35:44.204 distinguish from the other roars assaulting our bodies and minds? 00:35:44.594 --> 00:35:47.954 I can't answer that, not tonight, not on this day. Again, so well said. 00:35:47.954 --> 00:35:54.434 And I'm curious now, and I have my answer that you need to say, I'm kidding. 00:35:54.434 --> 00:36:02.074 But now, did that time, did it just simply blunt the pain, or what did time do for you? 00:36:03.082 --> 00:36:15.572 I think what time did was give me distance and perspective. Time itself, I don't think changes anything if you stay stuck in your pain and your trauma. 00:36:16.132 --> 00:36:24.212 And people do that. I didn't know how I was going to remove that pain, but I knew early on that I 00:36:24.212 --> 00:36:30.772 was committed to not letting my husband's behavior destroy me. And time for me was, 00:36:30.772 --> 00:36:38.532 because it gave me a tool. It was just part of the tool. I couldn't do it alone. Speaking, 00:36:38.532 --> 00:36:45.753 writing, giving myself perspective, not only on myself, but his behavior, his addiction, 00:36:45.932 --> 00:36:53.621 his compartmentalization, it all had to work together. And so time kind of helps things marinate. 00:36:54.728 --> 00:36:59.052 Oh, that's good. I like that. And I want to now, of course, jokingly say that was the 00:36:59.052 --> 00:37:05.892 correct answer. You did that correct. I'm asked that question about time and how long, 00:37:05.892 --> 00:37:10.860 and then I unfortunately say, as long as it takes and you're right where you need to be. 00:37:11.212 --> 00:37:18.652 But I know that that can be helped when people are actively doing. And then people say, do 00:37:18.652 --> 00:37:23.872 what? Well, kind of anything at first other than ruminating and thinking. And so I feel 00:37:23.872 --> 00:37:28.972 like your book, whether you know it or not, Diana, just laid that process out so well 00:37:28.972 --> 00:37:32.512 And I think that it does often take longer than people would like for it to take, but 00:37:32.512 --> 00:37:36.252 then when they're through it, then it had to take as long as it takes. 00:37:36.252 --> 00:37:38.191 And I don't know if that was your experience as well. 00:37:38.452 --> 00:37:44.492 I think that's one of the reasons that I've, or a conclusion I've come to as I sat with 00:37:44.492 --> 00:37:49.588 the attempt at divorce number one, finally doing it number two. 00:37:49.812 --> 00:38:00.193 So we had this five-year period of being in the middle. And to be honest, I think there was a lot of healing that was going on inside of me, 00:38:00.892 --> 00:38:04.772 although inside the marriage, a healing that led to divorce. 00:38:04.772 --> 00:38:10.132 Yeah, I know. That makes so much sense. That time and that processing was, I think, essential. 00:38:10.132 --> 00:38:15.875 Had we divorced at our first attempt, I don't know that I would have been as healthy about, 00:38:16.332 --> 00:38:19.719 it. I would have been a mess still emotionally. 00:38:19.818 --> 00:38:23.212 I would have sat with that anger longer than I did. 00:38:24.184 --> 00:38:31.034 That right there, I mean, that's where I will maybe go back in and edit me asking a question that sounded really smart. 00:38:31.034 --> 00:38:37.034 I'm kidding. I won't because that answer so sums up in my work as a therapist of someone wants to say, 00:38:37.034 --> 00:38:41.034 well, just tell me what I need to do and what do you think would be best? 00:38:41.034 --> 00:38:47.034 And oh, don't hand me that power because then it will give you the opportunity that let's say, yeah, well, I mean, 00:38:47.034 --> 00:38:51.034 I've seen that this is most 90 whatever percent of the time, it won't work and you'll be happier out. 00:38:51.034 --> 00:38:54.161 Happier out. But I'm not going to say that because then if the person says, okay, because, 00:38:54.634 --> 00:38:57.514 then they'll get out. And now if they don't feel good, the first thing they can do is 00:38:57.514 --> 00:39:00.834 say, well, the therapist said that it wasn't going to work. What was I supposed to do? 00:39:00.834 --> 00:39:04.394 And I feel like what you just said there about that healing comes in that there's a book 00:39:04.442 --> 00:39:08.874 that refers to it as the messy middle. And I think that healing has to come, I mean, 00:39:08.874 --> 00:39:13.444 obviously within, but that might be within the marriage. And that is difficult because, 00:39:13.914 --> 00:39:18.062 you're around the person that you're frustrated by, but you want to then talk to about the 00:39:18.194 --> 00:39:21.609 frustration with the person, which is ironic. Yeah, so much there. 00:39:22.096 --> 00:39:27.434 Yeah, there is. And I certainly had a therapist who said, are you sure you want to stay in 00:39:27.434 --> 00:39:32.634 this marriage? Okay. Yeah. Right. 00:39:32.634 --> 00:39:37.514 And I intellectually knew that was correct. I needed to leave, but emotionally I wasn't 00:39:37.514 --> 00:39:45.700 ready to do it. And so I think this whole issue of time and how we beat ourselves up, 00:39:45.794 --> 00:39:49.561 The part to remember for all of us is that this is not linear. 00:39:50.214 --> 00:39:56.394 There is not one thing and we will do like the addict does, one step forward, two steps 00:39:56.394 --> 00:40:00.337 backwards. We'll reverse it. We'll get two steps forward and one step back. 00:40:00.534 --> 00:40:05.640 And this is normal and this is okay. As long as there's some progress and some change. 00:40:06.254 --> 00:40:09.861 What won't work is to hold on to the pain. 00:40:10.555 --> 00:40:15.605 And to stay in that awful place where you regret and you can't even talk about it. 00:40:16.334 --> 00:40:21.125 And I'm already running into women who like, I want to give this book to my friend because 00:40:21.125 --> 00:40:27.845 she's there and she won't even go near it. She can't even acknowledge that this was part of her 00:40:27.845 --> 00:40:32.805 life. Those are not people that are in healthy places. And it's so sad. 00:40:32.805 --> 00:40:37.285 It is. And when you were talking before, when we talk about that opening scene and you're looking 00:40:37.285 --> 00:40:41.365 and thinking about being on the edge of the water, or I have people that will say, hey, 00:40:41.365 --> 00:40:45.885 I'm not suicidal, but I call it the, but if a meteor hits me, that's not a bad thing, 00:40:45.885 --> 00:40:51.165 you know, theory where it's that, again, I think the brain is a absolute don't get killed 00:40:51.165 --> 00:40:55.345 device. So it is going to do anything it can to get your attention. And so when people 00:40:55.345 --> 00:40:59.285 don't open up about things, keep things in their head, then they, I feel like, you know, 00:40:59.285 --> 00:41:02.765 unfortunately people start to get to this place of feeling everything from suicidal 00:41:02.765 --> 00:41:06.594 thoughts and ideations, and especially not being willing to open up about that, because, 00:41:07.215 --> 00:41:10.765 that is a shame-filled process as well. So I just I think your message is really going 00:41:10.765 --> 00:41:14.605 to resonate. And I feel like hearing it from people that have been through it, I don't 00:41:14.605 --> 00:41:18.725 know what, you know, I think it really speeds up the healing process for those in it. And 00:41:18.725 --> 00:41:22.303 as a therapist, I can say all the right words and people feel heard and understood. But. 00:41:23.050 --> 00:41:28.285 When somebody has gone through it like you have, I feel like that just that it does, 00:41:28.285 --> 00:41:33.445 it speeds up the healing. So I really appreciate you coming on and your book was really, I 00:41:33.445 --> 00:41:34.654 I mean, I really like it a lot. 00:41:34.725 --> 00:41:37.965 I'm a huge audio book guy, so I've already got your fiction books, 00:41:37.965 --> 00:41:41.531 and they're all, can I ask a couple of just nerdy author questions? 00:41:41.925 --> 00:41:47.068 Okay, so, okay, and I'll talk about some of this stuff in the intro too, but okay, your books are, 00:41:47.410 --> 00:41:52.118 it's Andrea Kellner series, so Lies in High Places, The Last Lie, Lies of Men. 00:41:52.365 --> 00:41:59.805 Tell me about your interest in lying, Dana. Tell me about, honestly, sell those fiction books, 00:41:59.805 --> 00:42:04.352 because I love audio books, and I listen constantly, So I'm excited to listen to those. 00:42:04.565 --> 00:42:07.917 And the memoir is going to be in audio as well. I'm working on that now. Okay, I'm in. 00:42:08.445 --> 00:42:12.968 Perfect. So I was starting to write the fiction. 00:42:13.859 --> 00:42:20.909 As the heaviness, the worst part of my husband's drinking was happening. And I was starting to find 00:42:20.909 --> 00:42:25.869 out what was going on, what had been going on in his life. I made the decision to start writing 00:42:26.048 --> 00:42:33.132 before I knew the truth. And for me, writing mystery, what I enjoy is the psychological part, 00:42:33.229 --> 00:42:39.272 the puzzle, the why, the how, who's doing it. I'm not into the blood and gore part. I want 00:42:39.469 --> 00:42:43.494 one psychological behind the scenes, what motivates people. 00:42:44.169 --> 00:42:50.543 And kind of the short answer to the lies is in those books, my character, Andrea, 00:42:50.957 --> 00:42:53.955 she could uncover lies that I wasn't uncovering in my real life. 00:42:54.486 --> 00:43:00.103 Okay. And now, now I have to listen. And lying is at the core of all of these crimes. 00:43:00.689 --> 00:43:07.749 Okay. Well, that's exciting. Okay. Can I get you to, uh, I have a new true crime meets therapy podcast coming out in a couple of weeks. 00:43:07.749 --> 00:43:11.669 Yeah, murder on the couch. I would love to maybe have you come on there and let's break down one 00:43:11.669 --> 00:43:14.949 of your books. I think that would be a lot of fun. That'd be wonderful. Okay. All right. Dana, 00:43:14.949 --> 00:43:18.153 what a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I think this is going to 00:43:18.549 --> 00:43:22.709 resonate with the overall mental health audience of the virtual couch. And then the waking up to 00:43:22.709 --> 00:43:28.073 narcissism, I think it's just going to speak volumes to the people that are experiencing that. 00:43:28.352 --> 00:43:32.629 No, so thank you. And good. I'll have all this in the show notes, but where can people find you? 00:43:33.286 --> 00:43:39.169 I am dana kelly and calm book pages for everything there are links to purchase 00:43:39.169 --> 00:43:43.309 it's a bit the book is available pre-order right now and it will be 00:43:43.309 --> 00:43:47.429 available anywhere you like to buy books okay and I read some of your online 00:43:47.429 --> 00:43:53.433 journal as well and I mean you've got a lot on your website then very good writer so I highly encourage people to go check that out, 00:43:53.973 --> 00:43:58.636 all right Dana I hope we will get to talk again I'd love that okay okay Thanks a lot. It was really great. 00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:17.201 Music.