WEBVTT

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Okay, I need to talk about movie theater popcorn, not microwave popcorn,

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not the stuff in a little paper bag that you pop on top of the stove,

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not the incredibly sad, slightly damp kernels at the bottom of a bag.

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If you've ever felt so desperate that you got gas station popcorn,

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I'm talking about real movie theater popcorn, the kind where you walk into the

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lobby and the smell hits you before the doors close right behind you,

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the kind where you somehow already been thinking about it all day before you

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even bought your ticket.

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And true confession, I may have gone to a movie or two or 10,

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and I don't even know what the movie's about. I really just wanted movie theater popcorn.

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There have been times where I've been so full if we're going to dinner in a

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movie, but I still get movie theater popcorn. It's overpriced.

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I don't think it's very good for you. There have been times where I've gone

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in and I've had to use mindfulness skills and I try to just notice the counter and walk by it.

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But before you know it, I'm standing in line and I'm saying large extra butter.

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And I don't really feel bad about that.

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That's the kind of popcorn I'm talking about. And I genuinely love it.

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And I've loved it my entire life.

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And I think because I wasn't necessarily allowed to get it as a kid,

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it means so much to me now. It must be eaten.

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I must buy it. I will buy it. Anybody who goes with me, we're going to get those

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little boats and we're going to share. I think you get the point.

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But I've been thinking about it a lot lately, not just because I have a problem

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with it, but because I think there's something about a single popcorn kernel,

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that captures something that I want to talk about today in a way that nothing else can.

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Before we get to the episode, and I promise I'm going somewhere meaningful with

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this, I want to ask you something.

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Do you actually know how popcorn is made? Do you know the journey?

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And I love the hero's journey. I love the origin story.

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But have you ever thought about that for a kernel of popcorn?

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Because I think most of us just sort of accept that popcorn exists kind of the

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way you just accept that Wi-Fi exists and however avocados are made or grown.

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You don't really think about how it got here. You just enjoy the result.

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But I want you to think about the kernel for just one second. Just one tiny kernel.

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I'd like to start with the dramatic story of one kernel of popcorn.

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It actually starts on an ear of corn somewhere in a field, maybe Iowa,

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maybe Kansas, Nebraska, somewhere flat and probably pretty hot in the summer.

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And this kernel, let's call him Kevin, because why not?

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Kevin's been growing slowly in the sun, packed in tight with hundreds of his

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closest friends, wrapped in the warmth of a husk. He's living his best life.

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And then one day, Kevin gets picked just like that. his whole world,

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the field, the sun, the husk, his entire community is gone.

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And he has no idea where he's going. Now, it's something that he's learned to

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expect, but he doesn't know what comes next. He's just harvested.

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And here's where Kevin's story branches, because not every colonel gets the

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same fate. And Kevin has no idea yet what his path is.

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Now, maybe, who knows? I don't know if corn has a spirituality,

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if Kevin maybe has not lived a particularly righteous life as a colonel,

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if he's cut in line at the drying facility, if he's been dismissive of the other

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Colonel's feelings, or if he's gaslit a few of his fellow ears of corn into

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thinking that they're the problem, then Kevin's fate's probably grim.

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Kevin might get put in scalding hot water, scraped from his home,

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mashed into something thick and creamy and pretty undignified,

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put in a can, sealed, placed on a shelf for who knows how long he'll wait.

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It could be years, maybe even decades, until finally the can's open.

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Kevin finds himself being gummed, not chewed, but gummed by somebody in a facility

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that smells of mothballs and Necco wafers where the TV is way too loud and it's

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always too cold and somebody down the hall is playing an accordion at an inappropriate hour.

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That's not the life that Kevin had hoped to live.

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But let's say that Kevin's lived well. Kevin's been a good colonel.

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He's been present. He's been accountable, regulated, curious.

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Maybe something different happens. And Kevin finds himself in a bag or a jar

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or a big, beautiful bottle with just a bunch of his friends,

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friends he hasn't seen since the field, friends that he didn't even know that he had missed.

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And there's excitement. There's anticipation because they all know what's coming,

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even if they don't have the words for it.

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They get poured into something, a pot, maybe one of those big,

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glorious silver machines you see at the theater. The ones where you can just

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watch the whole thing happen through the glass.

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And underneath them, there's heat, real heat, sustained, intentional building heat.

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And nothing happens at first. And that's the part that nobody talks about.

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There's a period of just sitting in the heat where it feels like maybe nothing

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is going to happen, where a lesser colonel might panic. But Kevin trusts the heat.

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And then the pressure inside Kevin starts to build. the moisture that's trapped

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in a starchy little center begins to heat and it superheats.

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And then his shell, the hard, tough outer layer that he's been wearing his entire

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life, starts to strain against what's happening inside him.

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And then the pop. In a fraction of a second, Kevin turns himself inside out.

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Everything that was dense and compressed and hidden on the inside now explodes outward.

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And Kevin goes from something small and hard and difficult to perceive to something

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light and open and impossible to miss.

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Kevin could expand up to 40 times his original size. He fills the space. He smells incredible.

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And he becomes what he was always meant to become. And if Kevin is lucky,

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if he's truly lived with integrity all the way up to this moment.

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He gets slathered in butter, maybe a little salt, maybe even that bright orange

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flavoring that we pretend is cheese.

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And then he gets to spend his final moments in the hands and in the mouth of

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somebody who is genuinely, deeply, unapologetically happy to have him.

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And Kevin, if he's very lucky, might even get stuck in somebody's teeth for

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who knows how long, weeks, months, which in popcorn terms is basically immortality.

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I'm going to put a pin in Kevin for a second because now I want to show you

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something else. Let me tell you about a different kind of kernel.

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Now, this one doesn't start in a field. It starts in a relationship,

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maybe a marriage, maybe a family, maybe a friendship that you've had for years

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and years and you've always trusted.

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And this kernel, this one little kernel, is something true. It's something real.

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It's something that actually happened. It's something that on its own,

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in its original form, is genuinely, legitimately, defensively accurate. it.

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So let's say, for example, that you were late once and you said you were going

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to be home by six and you got home at 645.

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That happened. You remember it. You even apologized for it. You owned it.

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It just was at the time. So that's the kernel. It's small, it's dense, and it's real.

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Now, here's where the narcissist in your life becomes the heat source.

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Because that kernel, that small true thing, doesn't stay small.

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Not in the hands of somebody who knows how to apply pressure.

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Somebody who knows how to build a narrative.

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Somebody who needs the story to expand, to fill the room, to justify their behavior,

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to make sure that you eventually find your way into the one down position while

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they occupy the one up position. They take the higher ground.

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So the heat gets turned up. You're always late.

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And you think, hang on, it's not really fair. It was one time.

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But okay, now the heat is on.

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And as a matter of fact, you've never made me a priority. And now you think,

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okay, that's not true at all.

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I mean, granted, I did come home late that one time. So I don't know, maybe.

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And the shell starts to strain a little. You know, I honestly,

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I can't trust you with anything.

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I don't even know why you don't tell me anything. You say one thing,

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then you do another thing.

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Now something interesting is starting to happen. Because that kernel,

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that one true small defensible thing,

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now starts to become under so much pressure, so much sustained heat.

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This false narrative building, these accusations that build and build,

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that it's about to do what kernels do under those conditions.

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Remember what happened to Kevin? It pops.

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And what comes out on the other side is 40 times the size of what went in,

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and it fills the room, and it demands your attention, and it seems so substantial,

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so present, so impossible to ignore that you forget, you actually forget that

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the whole thing started with one Tuesday evening a few months ago where you

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were, by most any reasonable standards,

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a pretty considerate person, and you happened to be late. You lost track of time.

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But now you're not talking about that Tuesday anymore. Now you're not talking

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about that one time that you were late when you even took ownership of it.

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Now you're talking about your character.

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Now your reliability is being challenged. Your love is being questioned.

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Your patterns are being inaccurately portrayed.

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Your fundamental trustworthiness as a human being, and it's all because of one

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kernel that's now become 40 times the size and it's mostly hot air.

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So here's the part that really starts to get to me. the part I see over and

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over in my office with people who've been in these relationships with emotionally

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immature narcissistic partners for years and years and years,

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or maybe you grew up with a narcissistic or an emotionally immature parent.

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The reason you couldn't argue your way out of it is because that one kernel

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was real and you're a good person. And there was something true in there.

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You were late that night. And then every time you tried to push back on that

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expanded narrative that's created against you, hey, I'm not always late.

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That's not actually fair to say that, then they could point right back at the

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kernel. Oh, so you're saying you weren't late?

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And then you would say, I literally just said that I was late.

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And then they say, right, exactly.

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And you were late a whole lot of other times too, but you won't even admit it.

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And now the pop gets bigger.

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That's the move. That's the entire thing. Hey, everybody.

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Welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism. We are going to talk

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about the kernel of truth and how it goes on to become this big pop and fill

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the whole room with a bunch of hot air.

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I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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host of the Virtual Couch podcast.

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I would love for you to follow me on social media at virtual.couch on Instagram,

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at virtual couch on TikTok, thevirtualcouch.substack.com.

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Follow my sub stack. And if you go to tonyoverbay.com slash magnetic,

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you can find out more about my upcoming re-release of my magnetic marriage course.

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But what I want to introduce to you today is a concept that I am calling the pop.

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And if you remember the concept of popcorn moments, which is when you do become

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aware of what the narcissist is doing when they're trying to rope you into a

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disagreement, an argument, a dust up, you name it.

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And they're trying anything and you don't take the bait, you sit back and you're

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eating your popcorn while the first act they might do is, it's a horror movie.

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They're angry with you and normally you back off, but let's say that you realize,

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okay, I'm actually okay.

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So I'm going to have another bite of popcorn. And then the next act might be

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the comedy. You know, I'm kidding.

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That one doesn't get me either. Then we move into the drama.

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The person's crying and you have more popcorn.

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And then eventually that person most likely does a good old narcissistic exit.

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Maybe even if you're lucky, a medical exit. Oh my gosh, I'm having heart palpitations.

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Or oh my gosh, my arm is starting to act up on me.

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And so why not continue the popcorn motif?

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Because here's what I've learned by working with so many couples in particular

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and people who are in relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.

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That the most disorienting thing they do isn't usually the outright lie.

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You get to the point where you see the lie. You see the blatant misuse of the facts.

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It's more of what we're going to talk about today. It's taking something small and true.

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There's a kernel of truth in so many of the narcissist arguments.

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I hear this talked about so often by the pathologically kind person because

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they anchor to that truth.

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So there's this kernel. And then the narcissist or the emotionally immature

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person applies so much sustained emotional heat that then that kernel does explode

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into something that seems massive and legitimate. And then it's impossible to argue with.

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Not that you are going to be successful in arguing with a narcissist anyway,

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but this is one of the ways that they can find themselves an easy attack surface.

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Find one kernel of truth and then now conflate and confabulate and blow up the

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narrative. Now you're defending something that doesn't even happen.

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If you find yourself walking away from conversations, feeling like you somehow

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lost an argument that you know that somewhere in your body, you should have won.

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Not that it even should be a win or loss game.

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If you've ever said to yourself, I can't say they lie. I just know something

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was wrong, but I can't put my finger on it.

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We're going to make sure we cover that today because today we're going to name

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it. We're going to look at exactly how the POP works, why it's so hard to see

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in real time, and especially what it does to your nervous system over months, years, decades.

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And probably most importantly, what can you do when you recognize it?

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There is a term that researchers use for what I'm calling the POP,

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because I think knowing that it exists as a studied phenomenon might do something

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good for your brain, because it will help you know that this is something that

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maybe I'm not just seeing and it's not something that's just anecdotal.

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It's actually something that's been studied and it's called paltering.

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And it's also sometimes called the half-truth effect. Paltering sounds a little more clinical.

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Paltering is when somebody uses technically true statements in a way that creates

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a deliberately false impression.

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So every individual sentence could be accurate, but the overall picture being painted is not.

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And what makes it so psychologically potent is that people who palter don't

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experience themselves typically as liars.

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Studies show that they feel significantly less guilty misleading somebody with

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technically true statements than with outright lies, because then they can tell

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themselves, I didn't lie.

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Everything I said was accurate in a very narrow technical sense.

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And they're right. Each kernel was real.

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But the question was never whether each sentence passed a fact check.

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The question was whether the overall picture, the narrative that they're portraying,

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does it reflect reality?

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So let me give you a couple of examples of this. Imagine somebody who is in

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a job interview and the interviewer asks, hey, why'd you leave your last job?

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So the applicant, they prepare for this. They said, you know,

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I left to pursue other opportunities.

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Now, that might be absolutely true. They did leave and they are pursuing other

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opportunities. What they didn't mention is they were fired the week before.

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Every word passes the fact check. So often, paltering or this half-truth effect

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is what can also be considered the lies of omission or it's not being fully transparent.

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But the person across the table in this job interview walks away with a fundamentally

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different understanding of reality than what actually happened.

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Oh, this person left their job because they're going to work it through their,

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they're going to project or work it through their own mind of,

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wow, that was probably pretty brave of them to leave for better opportunities.

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No, they don't know that they came in late for the 14th day in a row,

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essentially pooping on company time for 30 minutes, and they finally got written

00:14:41.588 --> 00:14:43.608
up for it enough that then they were fired.

00:14:43.948 --> 00:14:46.708
But what they're doing by giving those half-truths, that's paltering.

00:14:46.908 --> 00:14:50.508
It's just a kernel of truth that just got popped. Now, why call it the pop?

00:14:50.848 --> 00:14:54.828
Because a popcorn kernel is very small. It's dense, it's real,

00:14:55.008 --> 00:14:56.608
and it contains actual substance.

00:14:57.008 --> 00:15:02.248
But when you apply heat, intentional building pressure, sustained over time,

00:15:02.468 --> 00:15:07.608
something happens. That moisture inside the kernel actually superheats. That shell strains.

00:15:07.968 --> 00:15:11.688
So picture what's happening inside your body when you are getting the sustained

00:15:11.688 --> 00:15:13.848
pressure that you are the problem.

00:15:14.028 --> 00:15:17.168
So after that shell strains long enough, then it pops.

00:15:17.488 --> 00:15:20.988
And what comes out really can be up to 40 times its original size.

00:15:21.148 --> 00:15:24.408
Fills the room, smells significant, but it demands attention.

00:15:24.688 --> 00:15:28.128
And I think here's what we forget. So often popcorn is mostly air.

00:15:28.568 --> 00:15:33.088
The outside of it looks voluminous and impressive, But the solid material,

00:15:33.248 --> 00:15:35.448
the center, it's tiny. It's almost nothing.

00:15:35.948 --> 00:15:39.328
So the power of the pop doesn't come from the part that's false.

00:15:39.448 --> 00:15:41.868
It comes from the part that's true. The truth is the kernel.

00:15:42.188 --> 00:15:45.888
The truth is what makes the rest of the story believable. So the narcissist

00:15:45.888 --> 00:15:49.328
or the emotionally immature person in your life doesn't need to lie.

00:15:49.728 --> 00:15:52.588
They just need one small, real, defensible thing.

00:15:52.868 --> 00:15:57.068
And then they apply heat, drama, accusations, victimhood, emotional pressure.

00:15:57.308 --> 00:15:58.968
I think one of the key components is repetition.

00:15:59.508 --> 00:16:01.648
Because the more that they tell themselves the story.

00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:04.929
The more they'll actually believe the story and then it just is.

00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:09.789
I had another amazing example this week of someone who had listened to the confabulation

00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:15.689
episode and they brought in an example of where their dad has completely taken

00:16:15.689 --> 00:16:18.389
credit for something that their uncle was very well known for.

00:16:18.769 --> 00:16:22.989
And to their dad, they believe it. You tell yourself this thing enough and you believe it.

00:16:23.089 --> 00:16:26.209
And if you are a narcissist or emotionally immature person who cannot be wrong

00:16:26.209 --> 00:16:28.629
about anything, you have to believe it.

00:16:28.729 --> 00:16:32.689
So I think it's happening in real time. after you get a lot of this repetition,

00:16:33.009 --> 00:16:36.149
especially of a false narrative and attacking that one little bit of truth.

00:16:36.549 --> 00:16:40.509
Then that small real thing expands into something that's going to fill the entire

00:16:40.509 --> 00:16:41.909
room, the entire relationship.

00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:45.289
And you're left standing in a cloud of something that technically started with

00:16:45.289 --> 00:16:49.049
a kernel of truth, but now you're surrounded with what is mostly hot air.

00:16:49.429 --> 00:16:52.889
One of the clearest, I think, large scale examples of the pop that I know of

00:16:52.889 --> 00:16:55.949
is a fascinating documentary, I believe on HBO.

00:16:56.149 --> 00:17:00.549
It follows NXIVM and it's spelled N-X-I-V-M. if you want to look this up.

00:17:00.869 --> 00:17:05.809
If you're not familiar, NXIVM started in the late 1990s as what looked like

00:17:05.809 --> 00:17:09.189
on the surface, like a personal development organization. They had legitimate

00:17:09.189 --> 00:17:12.929
workshops and seminars and curriculum that was designed to help people become

00:17:12.929 --> 00:17:14.469
more self-aware, more purposeful.

00:17:14.689 --> 00:17:18.309
They talked about personal responsibility and examining limiting beliefs.

00:17:18.409 --> 00:17:21.829
As a matter of fact, after one of the episodes that I watched of the series,

00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:26.149
I can't lie, I went and looked up one of the psychological techniques that they

00:17:26.149 --> 00:17:29.749
were using in one of the seminars and found some reality to it.

00:17:29.849 --> 00:17:32.929
And I think I even ended up doing an episode where I didn't talk necessarily

00:17:32.929 --> 00:17:37.469
about NXIVM, but I talked about whatever the concept was that I remember looking at at that time.

00:17:38.192 --> 00:17:42.412
In the seminars, they would dig in to try and understand how your past shapes your present.

00:17:42.572 --> 00:17:47.952
And the language truly did sound thoughtful, empowering, and it did sound like

00:17:47.952 --> 00:17:49.712
it was from a growth mindset.

00:17:49.932 --> 00:17:53.592
A lot of that early material actually did contain elements of legitimate growth work.

00:17:53.872 --> 00:17:56.992
People described early courses as eye-opening, and they felt like they were

00:17:56.992 --> 00:17:58.532
learning something real about themselves.

00:17:58.892 --> 00:18:01.772
And they were surrounded by people who also seemed committed to growth.

00:18:01.912 --> 00:18:04.612
So that's where the kernel lived. There were several kernels of truth there.

00:18:04.612 --> 00:18:09.432
Because that genuine insight, that early credibility actually was part of the problem.

00:18:09.572 --> 00:18:12.072
It built trust and it lowered people's defenses.

00:18:12.332 --> 00:18:16.152
And then once that trust was established, now the larger narrative could slowly be shaped around it.

00:18:16.852 --> 00:18:20.252
Questioning something that didn't feel right, that was reframed as resistance,

00:18:20.252 --> 00:18:24.012
as fear, as a personal limitation that you needed to work through.

00:18:24.192 --> 00:18:27.992
So the very tools that initially felt empowering became tools that now discouraged

00:18:27.992 --> 00:18:29.612
any kind of doubt that came up.

00:18:30.172 --> 00:18:33.952
Eventually, a secret subgroup emerged and members were required to provide what

00:18:33.952 --> 00:18:37.932
they called collateral compromising personal information that then would be

00:18:37.932 --> 00:18:40.232
released, used as blackmail material if they left.

00:18:40.392 --> 00:18:42.112
And they were actually also branded

00:18:42.112 --> 00:18:46.252
with the symbol that represented the philosophy of the organization.

00:18:46.432 --> 00:18:50.872
So when the story fully came out, investigators found that now there was coercion,

00:18:51.272 --> 00:18:55.712
manipulation, sexual exploitation, psychological abuse, control.

00:18:56.352 --> 00:19:01.152
And when survivors are interviewed, they almost all said some version of the same thing.

00:19:01.272 --> 00:19:06.232
They said, I didn't join a cult. I joined something that seemed to contain real insight.

00:19:06.412 --> 00:19:09.772
I never felt better about myself until then all of a sudden I felt worse.

00:19:10.132 --> 00:19:13.992
And that insight was what made me trust everything that came after it.

00:19:14.072 --> 00:19:17.632
And you would hear that time and time again, very smart, intelligent people

00:19:17.632 --> 00:19:20.452
that cannot believe that that's what they found themselves in.

00:19:20.592 --> 00:19:24.772
And I find that that is the case in so many people that all of a sudden are

00:19:24.772 --> 00:19:28.572
waking up to their relationship, to the emotionally immature narcissistic relationship

00:19:28.572 --> 00:19:31.192
that they're in, but they're smart, intelligent people.

00:19:31.292 --> 00:19:36.592
And it's hard for them to even fathom that this is where I'm at in my life or in my relationship.

00:19:37.094 --> 00:19:40.554
Because in so many of these instances, the truth wasn't completely absent.

00:19:40.674 --> 00:19:44.774
It wasn't completely absent with NXIVM, but it definitely wasn't the whole story.

00:19:45.054 --> 00:19:47.714
The kernel gave the pop its legitimacy.

00:19:47.994 --> 00:19:51.034
Without the real thing at the center, without the self-help vibe,

00:19:51.494 --> 00:19:55.414
nobody stays in the room long enough for the heat and the pressure to do its work.

00:19:56.094 --> 00:20:00.114
NXIVM is a very dramatic example, and I would have hoped that most of you aren't

00:20:00.114 --> 00:20:01.554
navigating anything at that scale.

00:20:01.794 --> 00:20:05.194
But most likely, you're navigating arguments that are happening in your kitchen,

00:20:05.474 --> 00:20:08.954
or financial decisions and conversations that are happening in a car,

00:20:09.114 --> 00:20:12.314
or a version of events that shifts every time you try to hold it still.

00:20:12.514 --> 00:20:16.534
But the mechanism of what you're dealing with and what's happening with something

00:20:16.534 --> 00:20:18.114
as big as a NXIVM cold is identical.

00:20:18.694 --> 00:20:23.674
Small truth, very small kernel of truth, sustained heat, sustained pressure,

00:20:24.194 --> 00:20:25.874
and repetition over time.

00:20:26.114 --> 00:20:31.014
And then the pop. And suddenly the room is filled with something that seems massive and real.

00:20:31.334 --> 00:20:35.954
So let's go a little bit deeper here because I think there's something really

00:20:35.954 --> 00:20:39.774
important about what happens when the pop plays out, not just once,

00:20:39.954 --> 00:20:42.174
but over months and over years.

00:20:42.514 --> 00:20:47.394
And this is similar to the death by a thousand cuts feeling because in a single

00:20:47.394 --> 00:20:51.834
conversation, a half truth might just feel like a misunderstanding.

00:20:52.334 --> 00:20:58.214
So you walk away vaguely unsettled, but you still chalk it up to maybe I misread

00:20:58.214 --> 00:21:02.674
that because it's much easier if it's a me thing, because then I can make sense of it later.

00:21:02.774 --> 00:21:06.154
I can solve it. I can follow up on it later. Because if it's not.

00:21:06.748 --> 00:21:11.028
Something that I misread or I misunderstood, then I maybe don't want to have

00:21:11.028 --> 00:21:15.608
to deal with the fact that my partner is misrepresenting the truth,

00:21:16.148 --> 00:21:19.928
lying to me, gaslighting me, changing the narrative on me, causing me to feel crazy.

00:21:20.228 --> 00:21:23.768
So again, maybe I'm the one that misread it, so fine. But what happens when

00:21:23.768 --> 00:21:25.008
it's not one conversation?

00:21:25.248 --> 00:21:28.568
What happens when it's 10, 50, 100?

00:21:28.888 --> 00:21:34.008
What happens when every argument has a kernel of something real and true that

00:21:34.008 --> 00:21:37.768
gets popped into a narrative that consistently and systematically makes you the problem.

00:21:37.928 --> 00:21:40.188
Let's go with another example. Let's call her Lauren.

00:21:40.468 --> 00:21:44.268
She's been in a relationship for seven years with a partner who is very emotionally immature.

00:21:44.748 --> 00:21:47.628
And over those seven years, here are some things that she's heard.

00:21:48.108 --> 00:21:51.668
After he forgot a very important event, he said, I told you my schedule was

00:21:51.668 --> 00:21:55.748
so unpredictable this week. He did say that. He also said he'd be there.

00:21:56.388 --> 00:21:59.948
After a pattern of dismissing her feelings, he had said at one point,

00:22:00.108 --> 00:22:03.328
I don't know why you're upset. I complimented you on Tuesday.

00:22:03.908 --> 00:22:08.948
True. He had complimented her one time. After a major financial decision was

00:22:08.948 --> 00:22:11.928
made without her, he said, you were involved. I showed you the paperwork.

00:22:12.626 --> 00:22:16.466
Technically true, briefly in passing, but he just said, hey,

00:22:16.626 --> 00:22:18.946
look at this. Here's the paperwork with the thing that we're doing.

00:22:19.226 --> 00:22:22.386
So that was in passing, three weeks earlier, without context,

00:22:22.726 --> 00:22:26.126
without discussion, and then nothing else said afterward.

00:22:26.646 --> 00:22:30.406
None of those are outright lies. But over the seven years of Lauren's relationship,

00:22:30.646 --> 00:22:34.486
she said that they created a very specific reality for her, one where she is

00:22:34.486 --> 00:22:38.026
always the one who's misunderstood, who misremembered, who overreacted.

00:22:38.206 --> 00:22:42.026
And then what happens over seven years? What does that do to a person?

00:22:42.026 --> 00:22:46.826
And that's when you start losing trust in yourself. And it's not all at once. It's gradual.

00:22:47.046 --> 00:22:50.606
So if you've been in a relationship for 10, 15, 20, 30 years of this,

00:22:50.866 --> 00:22:55.946
then most likely at this point, it just is the fact that you doubt yourself

00:22:55.946 --> 00:23:01.466
and you think you must be the problem because you start to develop this anticipatory

00:23:01.466 --> 00:23:04.606
knowledge or feeling in the relationship where it's like, well,

00:23:04.686 --> 00:23:06.526
I already know where this is going. I'm the problem.

00:23:06.986 --> 00:23:10.546
So you start second guessing before you even speak. You start rehearsing the

00:23:10.546 --> 00:23:14.886
conversations in advance because you know, okay, I usually just don't come out

00:23:14.886 --> 00:23:15.626
of this feeling very good.

00:23:15.746 --> 00:23:19.446
So you essentially have to build your case knowing that the story might shift.

00:23:19.686 --> 00:23:22.946
People start journaling things more, writing things down, recording things.

00:23:23.066 --> 00:23:27.606
You start keeping more mental notes because you've learned that without evidence,

00:23:27.806 --> 00:23:29.266
your version of events will be challenged.

00:23:29.466 --> 00:23:33.366
And for a lot of people, you've learned that your keeping of evidence will be

00:23:33.366 --> 00:23:37.826
challenged and it still won't cause that person an aha moment.

00:23:37.826 --> 00:23:43.186
And I think it's so important to share with you that if you find some sanity

00:23:43.186 --> 00:23:46.066
in writing things down, please continue to write things down.

00:23:46.466 --> 00:23:51.066
You're not paranoid. You're learning to adapt in an environment where your perception

00:23:51.066 --> 00:23:52.906
of reality continually gets challenged.

00:23:53.186 --> 00:23:58.086
And then where that challenge, and I don't use all or nothing statements most

00:23:58.086 --> 00:24:03.326
of the time, but it almost always comes wrapped in something's technically true.

00:24:03.912 --> 00:24:06.312
And you're the problem. So when I started thinking about the pop,

00:24:06.472 --> 00:24:10.112
it actually came from a session with someone who's in an emotionally immature

00:24:10.112 --> 00:24:11.532
or narcissistic relationship.

00:24:12.052 --> 00:24:15.832
And so then I reached out to the private Facebook group for women who are in

00:24:15.832 --> 00:24:19.012
relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic fill in the blanks.

00:24:19.332 --> 00:24:22.692
Because these are people that have been in relationships with narcissistic or

00:24:22.692 --> 00:24:23.512
emotionally immature people.

00:24:23.872 --> 00:24:28.592
And they are at all kinds of places in the relationships, beginning to wake

00:24:28.592 --> 00:24:32.672
up in the middle of it, staying with it, and some that have exited these relationships.

00:24:32.732 --> 00:24:35.892
So they're from all places and that's not a place of judgment.

00:24:36.192 --> 00:24:40.132
I had asked them about this concept and I said, has anybody experienced this?

00:24:40.632 --> 00:24:44.892
And it was immediate where I've got dozens of stories.

00:24:45.132 --> 00:24:48.092
So I just want to read a few of them and I've changed so much of the details.

00:24:48.332 --> 00:24:52.432
And I think this is so impactful because I continue to hear that hearing other

00:24:52.432 --> 00:24:55.352
people's stories is one of the most powerful things for people because they

00:24:55.352 --> 00:24:56.612
will realize they're not alone.

00:24:56.932 --> 00:24:59.472
Because I think one of the most important things that I can hopefully do from

00:24:59.472 --> 00:25:04.482
my chair is to hold a mirror and say, you're not alone, you're not crazy, and here's the proof.

00:25:04.722 --> 00:25:09.122
In the same vein of the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes, we'll look at episode

00:25:09.122 --> 00:25:11.282
one right now of the Colonel Collection.

00:25:11.902 --> 00:25:16.562
One person's spouse said, I said I would quit drinking, but I never said it would be forever.

00:25:17.062 --> 00:25:20.822
So there's the Colonel. He had said that he would quit, which was true.

00:25:21.482 --> 00:25:26.382
He did say that. The pop, everything that word quit was supposed to mean.

00:25:26.562 --> 00:25:32.302
The safety, the relief, the promise of a different life exploded into a technicality.

00:25:32.442 --> 00:25:35.782
One word, which blew up 40 times the size and it's mostly air.

00:25:36.382 --> 00:25:39.322
Another said, I wasn't trying to isolate you. I just didn't think your friends

00:25:39.322 --> 00:25:41.562
were a good influence. I was protecting you out of love.

00:25:42.222 --> 00:25:47.962
Another example, the husband saying, I'm sorry I lied, but I confessed like an hour later.

00:25:48.422 --> 00:25:51.062
And you know what? I could have not even told you the truth at all.

00:25:51.813 --> 00:25:55.893
Each one of those is a real kernel. Each one popped into something completely unrecognizable.

00:25:56.093 --> 00:25:59.113
One person told me that her husband had said he was going out to dinner and

00:25:59.113 --> 00:26:03.253
drinks with a friend's son. There had been some kind of significant event in this young man's life.

00:26:03.553 --> 00:26:09.033
And he framed it that night as almost a way to acknowledge or memorialize something

00:26:09.033 --> 00:26:10.093
big in that person's life.

00:26:10.253 --> 00:26:13.273
So nothing really felt off at first. That actually sounded pretty admirable.

00:26:13.773 --> 00:26:16.693
But then she wakes up in the middle of the night and her husband is not home.

00:26:16.833 --> 00:26:20.733
And that catches her off guard because he had not said that he was going to be out as late as he was.

00:26:21.193 --> 00:26:25.613
She hadn't worried before But now something feels off Feels a little strange

00:26:25.613 --> 00:26:30.133
So she calls him And he answers like Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I lost track of time I'm on my way back.

00:26:30.838 --> 00:26:34.458
Fast forward a couple of days later, they're in a room and there are other people around.

00:26:34.738 --> 00:26:38.558
And almost as an afterthought, he said, oh, hey, you know what's funny?

00:26:38.698 --> 00:26:41.618
When I was out the other night, I actually ran into a former employee that I

00:26:41.618 --> 00:26:43.938
used to work with, but I totally forgot to tell you about that.

00:26:44.058 --> 00:26:47.098
And then he got back to the conversation, which just seemed odd that he decided

00:26:47.098 --> 00:26:48.038
to bring it up at that time.

00:26:48.638 --> 00:26:52.758
So immediately her spidey sense, her intuition kicks in. Something about this

00:26:52.758 --> 00:26:54.458
just doesn't really seem to sit right.

00:26:54.878 --> 00:26:57.878
She doesn't say anything in the moment because there are other people around.

00:26:57.878 --> 00:27:01.478
But later she circles back and says, hey, I was just curious,

00:27:01.498 --> 00:27:03.178
who was that former employee?

00:27:03.798 --> 00:27:07.898
And as it turns out, it was somebody that he had a brief romantic relationship

00:27:07.898 --> 00:27:09.718
with, granted, before they were married.

00:27:09.898 --> 00:27:14.078
So on the surface, that part is not inherently wrong. They both had lives before the relationship.

00:27:14.318 --> 00:27:18.738
But what stood out to her was the timing and the way that the information was revealed.

00:27:18.958 --> 00:27:23.858
She had to wonder if that had been part of the plan that he had the entire time.

00:27:24.338 --> 00:27:27.498
But she tries to stay grounded and curious. And she said, I'm really curious

00:27:27.498 --> 00:27:33.658
if you already knew that she was going to be there or why you were waiting so long to tell me.

00:27:34.198 --> 00:27:38.558
And his response was he got kind of angry. And he said, what are you accusing

00:27:38.558 --> 00:27:41.158
me of? How would I have known that she was going to be there?

00:27:41.618 --> 00:27:44.838
And then he said, and I told you I was going out to dinner and drinks.

00:27:45.158 --> 00:27:48.538
I didn't think I needed to give you a full rundown of the entire night or everybody who was there.

00:27:49.158 --> 00:27:52.818
So all of a sudden, he's very defensive. And here's where it starts to get a

00:27:52.818 --> 00:27:54.718
little tricky because so much

00:27:54.718 --> 00:27:57.458
of what he says is true. He did say he was going to dinner and drinks.

00:27:57.938 --> 00:28:02.018
And does he need to give her a full rundown of the night? That isn't their normal MO.

00:28:02.638 --> 00:28:06.738
But what he didn't say was that he did stay longer and that he spent additional

00:28:06.738 --> 00:28:09.978
time with somebody that he had a past with and that he chose not to disclose

00:28:09.978 --> 00:28:13.818
that until later, almost casually, and he was really, really defensive about it.

00:28:14.418 --> 00:28:18.758
But now she's left holding a lot of these partial truths and this just icky

00:28:18.758 --> 00:28:20.058
feeling that doesn't add up.

00:28:20.198 --> 00:28:24.038
So there are these little kernels of truth, but she can't quite piece together the full story.

00:28:24.158 --> 00:28:27.578
In a healthy relationship, that would be a fair question to ask.

00:28:27.698 --> 00:28:30.678
And if the person I want to say was not guilty of something,

00:28:30.758 --> 00:28:31.658
that is a judgment statement.

00:28:31.818 --> 00:28:35.818
But then they could sit with her discomfort and then help her make sense of things.

00:28:36.758 --> 00:28:39.658
But anytime that she's trying to make sense of it, it feels like the narrative

00:28:39.658 --> 00:28:42.858
shifts just enough that she can't quite get her hands around it.

00:28:43.418 --> 00:28:46.738
And what makes it even more confusing is that when she shared this with a friend,

00:28:46.878 --> 00:28:49.598
because she was trying to just run some things by a friend of hers because she

00:28:49.598 --> 00:28:52.898
felt crazy, the friend said, I mean, technically he did tell you that he was

00:28:52.898 --> 00:28:57.278
going out and you both have these pasts and you had relationships. And again, that's true.

00:28:57.918 --> 00:29:01.298
But this is one of those situations I almost want to say, if you know, you know.

00:29:01.878 --> 00:29:04.798
And if you're listening right now and thinking, I honestly don't see the big

00:29:04.798 --> 00:29:06.458
deal, that is absolutely okay.

00:29:07.158 --> 00:29:12.238
But if it feels in your bones why this would be unsettling, why it would feel

00:29:12.238 --> 00:29:17.198
like something important was left out, then I would imagine you can understand

00:29:17.198 --> 00:29:19.038
the impact or maybe you've been there yourself.

00:29:19.278 --> 00:29:22.738
Because over time, what starts to happen is that she begins to question her own memory.

00:29:23.398 --> 00:29:28.778
And she said, I know I don't have cognitive issues, but I sure feel like I do often.

00:29:29.278 --> 00:29:33.378
She said, I remember events like this really clearly because I know that they

00:29:33.378 --> 00:29:36.638
happen often enough and they matter to me and I'm starting to write them down.

00:29:36.678 --> 00:29:39.418
But I kind of feel like if I don't remember every single detail perfectly,

00:29:39.678 --> 00:29:44.278
then I'm going to lose my footing. And that's part of the cost of this.

00:29:44.418 --> 00:29:48.018
It turns somebody into a bit of a court reporter and the relationship.

00:29:48.158 --> 00:29:51.398
And then they feel like they have to track every detail and every timeline and

00:29:51.398 --> 00:29:54.658
every word, because if they don't, then the narrative gets rewritten.

00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:59.060
Another person had shared a situation with similar patterns.

00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.820
She said she was driving in an area that had sub-zero temperatures with young

00:30:02.820 --> 00:30:04.740
kids in the car and she got a flat tire.

00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.080
They were in the middle of nowhere. There was no food, no bathroom,

00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.920
and it was cold and she was kind of scared. So she called her husband and there was no answer.

00:30:13.280 --> 00:30:16.280
She texted, she left a message, still nothing. And then finally,

00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.880
about 30 minutes later, he gets back to her and he says, I'm sorry,

00:30:18.940 --> 00:30:22.380
I was asleep. I was exhausted. I was taking a nap. Let me see what I can do.

00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:25.440
And then nothing. two or three hours go by

00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.420
before he contacts her again and he doesn't show up instead

00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:31.760
when he does call her back he's frustrated and

00:30:31.760 --> 00:30:34.640
she can tell and he starts off with questions like hey

00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.340
did you check the tires before you left because if you didn't that's not

00:30:37.340 --> 00:30:41.020
very smart or tell me you were paying attention when you were driving or were

00:30:41.020 --> 00:30:43.860
you drifting off the road were you on your phone because tires don't just pop

00:30:43.860 --> 00:30:48.320
on their own but meanwhile she's stranded kids have been crying and eventually

00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:53.740
she flags somebody down and gets help changing the tire herself later when she

00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:55.900
approaches him to try and talk about what happened.

00:30:56.140 --> 00:31:00.140
He says, I don't see what the big deal was. I told you I had been asleep.

00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:03.260
And she said, yeah, but what about the next two or three hours?

00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:05.640
And he minimizes it. It wasn't two or three hours.

00:31:06.260 --> 00:31:11.240
Later, she goes into this private investigator mode, which she felt bad about,

00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:14.340
but also thought that she needed to do it for her own sanity.

00:31:14.740 --> 00:31:18.560
And when she looked at different timestamps and messages, she said it became

00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:20.160
pretty clear that he had actually gotten up.

00:31:20.855 --> 00:31:23.595
Started heading in her direction eventually, ran some errands.

00:31:23.695 --> 00:31:26.595
She wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe even to get things that he would need.

00:31:26.915 --> 00:31:31.135
And then he didn't show up. And it's just a guess, but she said,

00:31:31.275 --> 00:31:34.735
I wonder if what happened is that somewhere along the way, he realized that

00:31:34.735 --> 00:31:38.495
he maybe didn't know how to help, didn't want to admit anything like that or

00:31:38.495 --> 00:31:42.995
acknowledged or realized how distracted he had been and how that really wasn't good.

00:31:43.155 --> 00:31:45.395
Maybe it was guilt. Maybe it slid into shame.

00:31:45.835 --> 00:31:49.335
Maybe he realized that he couldn't show up in the way that he really wishes

00:31:49.335 --> 00:31:52.115
he could, but he was too afraid to admit that.

00:31:52.355 --> 00:31:57.215
So, instead of sitting with that discomfort or trying to be open with her and

00:31:57.215 --> 00:32:01.395
saying, man, I am so sorry. I don't really know how to handle this. And that's so on me.

00:32:01.695 --> 00:32:05.735
He took the one true piece, the kernel that he had been asleep.

00:32:05.955 --> 00:32:08.135
And then everything else grew out of that.

00:32:08.435 --> 00:32:12.395
And it shifted into blame and into defensiveness and into turning the situation back on her.

00:32:12.675 --> 00:32:15.195
And she said at one point, he even reframed it as, you know,

00:32:15.335 --> 00:32:18.135
I was actually giving you an opportunity to figure things out on your own,

00:32:18.295 --> 00:32:22.835
to show your kids how to solve problems and how to stay calm and collected like

00:32:22.835 --> 00:32:24.135
I would have done if I would have been out there.

00:32:24.415 --> 00:32:27.395
And over time, he starts to believe that version of the story.

00:32:27.415 --> 00:32:33.715
And I think that's one of the big pieces here to understand because even if

00:32:33.715 --> 00:32:37.975
these things aren't calculated step-by-step manipulations over time,

00:32:38.215 --> 00:32:40.335
the narratives though do become

00:32:40.335 --> 00:32:43.495
genuinely believed by the narcissistic or emotionally a mature person.

00:32:43.595 --> 00:32:47.135
They become confabulated, which means they're built off of fragments of truth,

00:32:47.335 --> 00:32:52.255
but then reshaped into a narrative that protects the person from discomfort

00:32:52.255 --> 00:32:57.495
or having to take ownership of something that they didn't show up as their best self.

00:32:57.655 --> 00:33:01.515
And so, now the story becomes he actually worked incredibly hard.

00:33:01.655 --> 00:33:04.195
He was exhausted. He fell asleep. He's not appreciated.

00:33:04.715 --> 00:33:10.015
And she heroically handled the situation on her own thanks to the work that

00:33:10.015 --> 00:33:13.995
he had done on helping her be prepared for things like flat tires and being

00:33:13.995 --> 00:33:15.115
stranded out in the middle of nowhere.

00:33:15.315 --> 00:33:20.735
So this was actually a very good thing. And he should be praised for preparing her the way he had.

00:33:21.477 --> 00:33:25.157
Meanwhile, the person on the receiving end, her, she's left thinking,

00:33:25.517 --> 00:33:29.837
and it's a wonder why I even ever try to explain myself or ask questions about a situation.

00:33:30.057 --> 00:33:34.137
Because she said, every time I do, the story shifts just enough that I'm not

00:33:34.137 --> 00:33:37.877
going to ever land anywhere solid. And what's the point? And he believes the narrative.

00:33:38.237 --> 00:33:42.297
Here's one that I've heard several times in my office. This lady said that the

00:33:42.297 --> 00:33:46.777
question that was posed to her was, what's more important, money or our relationship?

00:33:47.493 --> 00:33:51.293
So she said, I back down because of course I did in that moment.

00:33:51.473 --> 00:33:56.053
Who wouldn't? She said, obviously, I have to say it's the relationship because

00:33:56.053 --> 00:33:57.353
what kind of person says money?

00:33:57.773 --> 00:34:01.173
She said, though, it took several years before I realized how twisted that question

00:34:01.173 --> 00:34:04.033
really was because being able to have honest, respectful conversations about

00:34:04.033 --> 00:34:08.913
money where both people's perspectives matter, that's not separate from the

00:34:08.913 --> 00:34:10.853
relationship. It is part of the relationship.

00:34:11.173 --> 00:34:15.053
So the kernel in there, of course, love matters more than money. True.

00:34:15.313 --> 00:34:18.793
Universal. Hard to argue with. The pop, though, therefore, your legitimate concern

00:34:18.793 --> 00:34:22.373
about how we handle our finances is apparently choosing money over us.

00:34:22.853 --> 00:34:26.813
Your need for financial transparency is now being viewed as a character flaw,

00:34:26.813 --> 00:34:28.773
and your question is the problem.

00:34:29.253 --> 00:34:33.753
One question, one pop, a conversation that actually needed to happen has been

00:34:33.753 --> 00:34:37.233
now shut down completely, and she said he would continually go to that line.

00:34:37.293 --> 00:34:39.953
There you go again. You're making money more important than our relationship.

00:34:40.413 --> 00:34:43.033
She couldn't even have the conversation. A lady shared that her husband didn't

00:34:43.033 --> 00:34:45.653
go to her doctor's appointment, and she'd asked him weeks in advance.

00:34:45.653 --> 00:34:48.433
There were some significant health issues and she had a real fear.

00:34:48.773 --> 00:34:51.633
She asked him to please be there. Can you do that for me?

00:34:51.933 --> 00:34:55.473
The morning of the appointment, he was in the backyard finishing some chores

00:34:55.473 --> 00:34:57.953
and he had brought somebody along to help him.

00:34:58.333 --> 00:35:02.773
She said she pulled out of the driveway alone and his explanation that he was

00:35:02.773 --> 00:35:06.613
concerned about finishing before some bad weather set in and that the equipment

00:35:06.613 --> 00:35:11.693
had been breaking down and he didn't know if he could afford to be able to rent the equipment again.

00:35:12.093 --> 00:35:17.553
She said he was trying his very hardest to get out of the uncomfortable feelings

00:35:17.553 --> 00:35:20.633
that he felt because there was definitely truth to the things that he was saying.

00:35:20.653 --> 00:35:26.953
But he was also showing me what was most important for him, not even what was

00:35:26.953 --> 00:35:31.653
important for me and what I really felt like would be important for the relationship

00:35:31.653 --> 00:35:33.873
because I had asked him for his support.

00:35:34.033 --> 00:35:36.693
The colonel, he was working that day, true.

00:35:37.447 --> 00:35:41.007
But the pop there happened where he didn't feel like he had anything to apologize for.

00:35:41.267 --> 00:35:45.727
And then, and I think this is maybe the cruelest part, her expressing disappointment

00:35:45.727 --> 00:35:49.407
then led to her being called so mean.

00:35:49.907 --> 00:35:53.907
And her pain became the problem because the pop didn't just protect him.

00:35:54.127 --> 00:35:55.707
It reversed the polarity entirely.

00:35:56.167 --> 00:36:00.867
Hey, look, I was working hard to try to get things done to save money before

00:36:00.867 --> 00:36:03.887
the bad weather came in. And look, it turns out you're fine.

00:36:04.387 --> 00:36:09.847
And you were attacking me for it, was the narrative that he was sharing. So now that's the story.

00:36:10.287 --> 00:36:14.527
That's the extended cut, the expanded version. That's what fills the room and

00:36:14.527 --> 00:36:16.387
that's what gets locked away in the family history now.

00:36:16.687 --> 00:36:20.647
Do you remember that time that you ended up being fine at the doctor,

00:36:20.647 --> 00:36:25.667
but you would not let this thing go and I didn't have any support in all the work that I was doing?

00:36:26.107 --> 00:36:30.167
Somebody simply wrote in and said, what about the, I'm sorry, but?

00:36:30.587 --> 00:36:35.507
That one is so common. They say sorry and then show how they're not sorry by

00:36:35.507 --> 00:36:39.907
saying, but if you actually had not done X, I wouldn't have done Y.

00:36:40.107 --> 00:36:42.607
And that's part of if you're familiar with the narcissistic apology,

00:36:42.887 --> 00:36:45.447
it can land like, okay, fine, I did it.

00:36:45.887 --> 00:36:49.587
But I wouldn't have done it if you hadn't have done this other thing.

00:36:49.767 --> 00:36:53.287
And as a matter of fact, I can't believe that I'm the one now that is trying

00:36:53.287 --> 00:36:55.467
to apologize to you. I think you owe me an apology.

00:36:55.927 --> 00:36:59.787
And the rough part there is if you are pathologically kind enough,

00:36:59.787 --> 00:37:02.067
you're most likely going to end up apologizing.

00:37:02.207 --> 00:37:04.407
There's the kernel in its most compressed form.

00:37:04.607 --> 00:37:08.027
Two words that are technically an apology, then the pop.

00:37:08.347 --> 00:37:12.487
The sorry is the kernel. Everything after the but is the heat.

00:37:13.204 --> 00:37:16.684
And I would imagine we've all sat in conversations where somebody says,

00:37:16.804 --> 00:37:20.524
I'm sorry, and we somehow walked away feeling worse. And that's why.

00:37:20.904 --> 00:37:25.024
Because that kernel was there, but the pop was bigger. I have so many more examples,

00:37:25.024 --> 00:37:27.584
and I'll save those for a part two at some point.

00:37:27.744 --> 00:37:30.504
I want to say something to everybody who sent these in and everybody listening

00:37:30.504 --> 00:37:32.964
who recognize themselves in any of those examples.

00:37:32.984 --> 00:37:36.724
I know that you're not making it up and you're not too sensitive and you're

00:37:36.724 --> 00:37:39.724
not bad at communicating or you're not asking for too much to talk about the

00:37:39.724 --> 00:37:43.964
finances or to really want somebody to be there for you. in a difficult time.

00:37:44.184 --> 00:37:47.624
You're not being too emotional or impossible to please. You are in an environment

00:37:47.624 --> 00:37:52.984
where real things, true things, are being used as raw material to construct

00:37:52.984 --> 00:37:54.784
and build a whole false picture of reality.

00:37:55.324 --> 00:37:58.684
And the reason you couldn't grab onto exactly what was wrong is the same reason

00:37:58.684 --> 00:38:01.464
that you can't grab popcorn while it's still popping.

00:38:01.624 --> 00:38:03.924
It moves too fast. It fills the room. And by the time it settles,

00:38:04.044 --> 00:38:05.944
it looks completely different from what it started as.

00:38:06.244 --> 00:38:10.124
But I know you felt it and your body knew. And that feeling that something just

00:38:10.124 --> 00:38:13.884
doesn't add up feeling wasn't a malfunction of something going on in your brain.

00:38:14.044 --> 00:38:16.904
It was probably the most accurate thing in the room.

00:38:17.324 --> 00:38:20.644
That feeling of, I don't understand what's happening here.

00:38:20.924 --> 00:38:23.824
And one of the reasons that the pop is so psychologically powerful,

00:38:23.984 --> 00:38:26.964
especially in close relationships with people that you actually care about,

00:38:27.104 --> 00:38:31.424
is that it bypasses the normal alarm system that we have for detecting dishonesty.

00:38:31.544 --> 00:38:34.724
Because when somebody tells an outright lie, something in us usually notices.

00:38:35.064 --> 00:38:37.464
There's a tonal shift. There's a story that doesn't quite track.

00:38:37.584 --> 00:38:39.464
Something's kind them off, our gut sends up a flare.

00:38:39.844 --> 00:38:44.284
But when the pop occurs, the alarm doesn't always fire because the statement

00:38:44.284 --> 00:38:47.844
is based in some sort of truth or reality.

00:38:48.344 --> 00:38:52.964
You can't really fact check them and find them wrong. There's nothing obviously off.

00:38:53.084 --> 00:38:55.624
But what you get instead is a feeling. And at this point in the relationship,

00:38:55.804 --> 00:38:58.804
most likely you've been made to feel like you can't trust your gut.

00:38:59.164 --> 00:39:03.284
It's this unease, this nagging sense of this something doesn't add up,

00:39:03.364 --> 00:39:05.504
but I already know if I bring it up, it's not going to go well.

00:39:05.984 --> 00:39:09.784
It will appear that you don't have receipts to prove your case.

00:39:10.684 --> 00:39:14.424
And I think that's why it's so painful in relationships with emotionally immature

00:39:14.424 --> 00:39:15.304
and narcissistic people.

00:39:15.584 --> 00:39:19.404
When you have that feeling, that unease, because you already know,

00:39:19.604 --> 00:39:21.024
I don't even know what it is.

00:39:21.104 --> 00:39:24.264
And I definitely can't speak to it because it will get turned around on me.

00:39:24.644 --> 00:39:28.084
You have to metabolize it. And I think that gets into your central nervous system.

00:39:28.484 --> 00:39:32.084
It is part of this concept of the body keeps the score. So now going into most

00:39:32.084 --> 00:39:36.204
every conversation, you're already on guard because this is not going to go

00:39:36.204 --> 00:39:37.344
well. Something feels off.

00:39:37.584 --> 00:39:40.964
What they're saying, I know there's some truth in that. Even when you try to

00:39:40.964 --> 00:39:43.444
bring something up like this, you know, you're hearing that you're always reading

00:39:43.444 --> 00:39:46.704
into things, which I kind of am, but is that a bad thing?

00:39:47.164 --> 00:39:50.084
Or the person is saying, I literally said this. I don't know how you can even

00:39:50.084 --> 00:39:53.884
think that I meant something different. Or you have a way of turning everything into a problem.

00:39:54.424 --> 00:39:59.044
So you can't even question it. The feeling gets labeled, it gets pathologized.

00:39:59.164 --> 00:40:01.804
And over time, then you start to learn to distrust your own feelings,

00:40:01.964 --> 00:40:05.764
which is exactly the point of what they're trying to do.

00:40:06.584 --> 00:40:11.364
The reason that you couldn't point to exactly what was wrong is not because nothing was wrong.

00:40:11.544 --> 00:40:16.724
It's because the wrongness of what is happening was being so carefully obscured

00:40:16.724 --> 00:40:19.784
by what was technically right, right?

00:40:20.064 --> 00:40:23.784
You're navigating something that is genuinely difficult to see.

00:40:24.084 --> 00:40:26.604
And if you've been in an environment like this for a long time,

00:40:26.684 --> 00:40:28.644
you may have started doing something that makes complete sense,

00:40:28.764 --> 00:40:32.304
but I think also deserves to be named. You became a court reporter.

00:40:32.844 --> 00:40:37.304
You start keeping mental notes, tracking exact words, holding on to timestamps,

00:40:37.304 --> 00:40:40.944
because you learn through your accumulated experience that without the transcript,

00:40:41.224 --> 00:40:46.484
then the kernel always wins, which is not a character flaw. It's not a waste of emotional calories.

00:40:46.724 --> 00:40:49.024
It's your survival instinct. It's an adaptation.

00:40:49.324 --> 00:40:51.824
It's your nervous system trying to protect you the only way it knew how.

00:40:52.244 --> 00:40:56.104
So often when somebody who is in a relationship with a narcissistic person,

00:40:56.304 --> 00:41:00.544
male, female, it doesn't matter, comes into therapy, one of the first things

00:41:00.544 --> 00:41:02.724
they want to do is go into the details.

00:41:03.428 --> 00:41:07.488
And I want to hear them. I don't need the details because I already know that

00:41:07.488 --> 00:41:10.648
the way that person's coming in and presenting is they need somebody,

00:41:10.828 --> 00:41:13.228
somebody to just listen and not tell them, well, what about,

00:41:13.348 --> 00:41:15.208
or you should have, or, well, I think you're overreacting.

00:41:15.748 --> 00:41:19.908
And as they talk it through, they start to realize, I am just,

00:41:20.068 --> 00:41:24.908
I'm hypervigilant, I'm hypersensitive, and I'm trying to make sense of so many

00:41:24.908 --> 00:41:28.168
things that that's all I'm doing constantly going over the details.

00:41:28.328 --> 00:41:30.108
But they said this, and they said this, and but this worked,

00:41:30.168 --> 00:41:33.588
and this didn't. And I think that can be just so difficult because you can now

00:41:33.588 --> 00:41:34.768
see where it is crazy making.

00:41:34.908 --> 00:41:39.508
When people step away from relationships that have this as a major component

00:41:39.508 --> 00:41:41.448
and their nervous system calms down,

00:41:41.808 --> 00:41:46.468
then they start to realize that they weren't even aware of the impact that the

00:41:46.468 --> 00:41:48.688
narcissistic or emotionally immature relationship had on them.

00:41:48.688 --> 00:41:50.408
I am not a neuroscientist.

00:41:50.548 --> 00:41:54.728
I am open to this being a simplistic way to view things.

00:41:54.988 --> 00:41:59.768
But if you are continually worrying and ruminating and second-guessing and trying

00:41:59.768 --> 00:42:04.068
to make sense of, it makes sense that you are going to be in a heightened state.

00:42:04.068 --> 00:42:05.168
You're going to be anxious.

00:42:05.688 --> 00:42:12.208
And if you are anxious long enough, that becomes your baseline of emotions.

00:42:12.208 --> 00:42:14.168
It's a high level of anxiety.

00:42:14.388 --> 00:42:17.688
I had a doctor client one time, and I liked the way that he put this.

00:42:17.688 --> 00:42:21.568
I was saying, I think that I'm a really chill person, that I'm very calm and

00:42:21.568 --> 00:42:26.568
relaxed, but man, jump scares at movies or heaven forbid, somebody pops a balloon

00:42:26.568 --> 00:42:28.348
at a birthday party, I lose it.

00:42:28.808 --> 00:42:32.248
And I remember he gave me this, he did this thing with his hands where he said,

00:42:32.328 --> 00:42:33.928
okay, your startle response is here.

00:42:34.168 --> 00:42:38.208
And he said, and you're just resting or you're what it feels like to be you

00:42:38.208 --> 00:42:39.988
is just underneath the startle response.

00:42:40.068 --> 00:42:45.968
So you feel fine there, but you have such a short runway before you startle where you react.

00:42:46.792 --> 00:42:49.712
We talked about what that looks like for the central nervous system.

00:42:49.852 --> 00:42:52.672
It goes back to those neurons that fire together, wire together.

00:42:52.812 --> 00:42:56.692
And over time, what it feels like to be you is continually ruminating,

00:42:56.892 --> 00:42:59.772
worrying, hypervigilant, trying to figure out things, trying to make sense of

00:42:59.772 --> 00:43:03.372
things, which unfortunately is the opposite of you just being,

00:43:03.572 --> 00:43:05.952
being present, reading books, playing catch,

00:43:06.672 --> 00:43:08.632
learning new things, interacting with people.

00:43:08.632 --> 00:43:13.312
Because even when you get in front of new people, sometimes you're over-sharing

00:43:13.312 --> 00:43:16.672
or over-talking or just trying to make sense of so many things.

00:43:16.832 --> 00:43:21.092
This is where I would throw a big plug in for a mindfulness practice.

00:43:21.892 --> 00:43:26.872
Meditation. And if you have not done it, and if you even just rolled your eyes

00:43:26.872 --> 00:43:30.892
or set out that old chestnut doing that thing, I would love for you to know

00:43:30.892 --> 00:43:35.652
the very simplistic version of, I guess, the science of it as I understand it.

00:43:35.652 --> 00:43:42.492
So now, if your baseline emotional state is in overdrive, that a good meditation

00:43:42.492 --> 00:43:46.232
or mindfulness practice is not trying to get you to stop your thoughts.

00:43:46.232 --> 00:43:49.812
It's one of the biggest misnomers in the field of mindfulness and meditation.

00:43:50.332 --> 00:43:55.232
When you do a meditation and mindfulness practice and you breathe in through

00:43:55.232 --> 00:43:59.272
your nose and out through your mouth a little bit longer than you breathe in,

00:43:59.452 --> 00:44:04.492
you're actually tricking your nervous system to say, we're safe. We're really safe.

00:44:04.892 --> 00:44:07.272
Again, in through the nose and out through the mouth a little bit longer,

00:44:07.272 --> 00:44:10.372
because if you're in fight or flight mode or you're on the run,

00:44:10.532 --> 00:44:13.732
you're not going to be able to do that. Your brain's saying, we must be okay.

00:44:14.332 --> 00:44:17.112
So you learn to lower that resting heart rate.

00:44:17.868 --> 00:44:22.668
And if you do that with consistency, that is a way that you can start to build

00:44:22.668 --> 00:44:25.008
more runway before you hit that startle response.

00:44:25.368 --> 00:44:30.248
Now, while I'm continuing to admit that I'm not a neuroscientist,

00:44:30.428 --> 00:44:37.168
also my understanding from the amygdala hijack episodes is that your prefrontal cortex,

00:44:37.448 --> 00:44:42.008
the area of the brain where you can make sense of things, where you can operate

00:44:42.008 --> 00:44:46.228
from more of a place of genuine curiosity and empathy, when you start to get

00:44:46.228 --> 00:44:50.108
in this heightened state, your prefrontal cortex is actually kind of shutting down.

00:44:50.108 --> 00:44:52.928
It's like light switches turning off the areas of the prefrontal cortex.

00:44:53.588 --> 00:44:56.468
What's turning on is your amygdala, your fight or flight response.

00:44:57.307 --> 00:45:00.847
If I'm continually in this state of hypervigilance, my amygdala,

00:45:01.067 --> 00:45:03.447
my fight or flight response is pretty much running the show.

00:45:03.767 --> 00:45:07.947
And so it's no wonder that I can't tap into my prefrontal cortex and get to

00:45:07.947 --> 00:45:09.127
the logical part of my brain.

00:45:09.287 --> 00:45:13.487
And I know it's at least helped me to try to make sense of things in that way.

00:45:14.347 --> 00:45:18.067
Because as I can even try to stay grounded and calm and present,

00:45:18.307 --> 00:45:22.547
even in a very moment where somebody is bringing me the heat in a session or

00:45:22.547 --> 00:45:23.647
maybe in another situation,

00:45:24.247 --> 00:45:29.767
If I can't stay present and grounded, then I'm going to start noticing that

00:45:29.767 --> 00:45:33.607
I am about to get all up in my amygdala and I'm going to lose access to my prefrontal

00:45:33.607 --> 00:45:36.987
cortex and that may result in me saying something pretty immature.

00:45:37.307 --> 00:45:41.707
So as you work on this mindfulness practice and learn how to build more of that

00:45:41.707 --> 00:45:47.947
runway before you hit that startle response, before you find yourself now kind

00:45:47.947 --> 00:45:52.027
of losing your mind, then we can also talk about the idea of a boundary.

00:45:52.027 --> 00:45:56.147
And remembering that boundaries are a me thing. Boundary is a if then.

00:45:56.767 --> 00:45:59.827
Not to be confused with an ultimatum. If you are starting to get upset,

00:46:00.167 --> 00:46:04.267
you may think you're setting a boundary, but you may be giving an ultimatum.

00:46:04.627 --> 00:46:08.587
Hey, I need you to talk nicer. I need you to calm down. I need you to hear me.

00:46:09.227 --> 00:46:12.767
That's an ultimatum. And we may say, nope, that's my boundary. You need to hear me.

00:46:12.967 --> 00:46:17.907
A boundary is if you aren't in a position to hear me, then I'm going to leave the conversation.

00:46:18.347 --> 00:46:22.247
A boundary is if I am now noticing thing, that I am starting to get all up in

00:46:22.247 --> 00:46:25.867
my amygdala, then I need to leave. A boundary is a me thing.

00:46:26.147 --> 00:46:31.527
Now, it's also fair to say that a boundary is there to try and keep you in a relationship.

00:46:31.527 --> 00:46:36.547
Because if I know that I'm not holding my own boundaries and I eventually end

00:46:36.547 --> 00:46:42.227
up being reactive and sometimes that reactive response and I don't feel good

00:46:42.227 --> 00:46:46.427
about that, then I need to remove myself before I get to that place.

00:46:47.297 --> 00:46:51.257
And I will go ahead and give you a little heads up when you start trying to

00:46:51.257 --> 00:46:53.697
look at boundaries that way, which is a very healthy way to do so.

00:46:54.077 --> 00:46:59.437
By the time you're aware that, oh, I'm upset, most likely you're already into

00:46:59.437 --> 00:47:01.277
that and you're sucked into the tractor beam.

00:47:01.597 --> 00:47:04.577
If you know Star Wars and you're heading toward the Death Star of narcissism.

00:47:04.977 --> 00:47:07.337
But at that point, it's a little too late.

00:47:07.917 --> 00:47:12.037
Your prefrontal cortex is probably already pretty far offline and your amygdala

00:47:12.037 --> 00:47:14.437
is saying, And okay, just ease into this.

00:47:14.617 --> 00:47:19.397
It'll be quick because it's hard to get yourself out of something when you're

00:47:19.397 --> 00:47:23.457
already sucked into that death star of narcissism.

00:47:23.877 --> 00:47:27.377
There's the path of awakening, the path of enlightenment, the path of growth

00:47:27.377 --> 00:47:30.237
from the book Buddha's Brain. That's where I learned it the best.

00:47:30.717 --> 00:47:33.597
The first stage is unconscious incompetence. You're not even aware.

00:47:33.877 --> 00:47:38.017
You haven't even found the podcast yet. You're just continuing to react and just do.

00:47:38.297 --> 00:47:45.397
The next step is conscious incompetence. and that's a wonderfully horrific place

00:47:45.397 --> 00:47:50.017
to be because you are now consciously incompetent.

00:47:50.177 --> 00:47:53.757
That sounds pretty heavy, but it just means you're now aware that you aren't

00:47:53.757 --> 00:47:55.897
doing the thing that you need. You're not setting the boundary.

00:47:56.077 --> 00:47:58.177
You are getting caught up in the narrative.

00:47:58.877 --> 00:48:03.657
You're starting to try to give them the aha moment and give yourself a tremendous

00:48:03.657 --> 00:48:05.917
amount of grace in this stage.

00:48:05.957 --> 00:48:09.737
And it's the place you'll be the longest because now you know,

00:48:09.737 --> 00:48:11.437
but it takes time to learn the tools.

00:48:11.717 --> 00:48:14.117
It takes time to reset your central nervous system.

00:48:14.657 --> 00:48:19.637
Start a meditation practice, do yoga, do trauma therapy, EMDR,

00:48:19.857 --> 00:48:20.857
brain spotting, brain mapping.

00:48:21.577 --> 00:48:25.897
Learn to do things for yourself, to learn to reset that central nervous system

00:48:25.897 --> 00:48:31.337
or give yourself tools to get out of the moment or to be able to at least try

00:48:31.337 --> 00:48:33.397
to stay grounded or self-soothe in the very moment.

00:48:33.857 --> 00:48:38.337
Because your cognitive ability to be aware of what's going on is wonderful and

00:48:38.337 --> 00:48:42.777
And it's amazing. And you are doing an amazing job by understanding these concepts.

00:48:43.137 --> 00:48:49.557
But your logic and your emotion, they're friends, but they kind of operate on

00:48:49.557 --> 00:48:50.517
different pages at times.

00:48:51.276 --> 00:48:56.096
You can really get things logically, but then try to convince your emotional

00:48:56.096 --> 00:48:57.876
state, your body, your reactions.

00:48:58.436 --> 00:49:02.656
That's going to take some time. So, you go from unconscious incompetence to

00:49:02.656 --> 00:49:07.836
unconscious competence, and you'll finally start to move over to conscious competence.

00:49:08.336 --> 00:49:13.176
Now, I'm aware and I'm watching myself say the right things and keep the boundary

00:49:13.176 --> 00:49:14.896
and remove myself from a situation.

00:49:15.076 --> 00:49:17.956
And your nervous system is still kind of starting to get on high alert.

00:49:17.956 --> 00:49:21.016
So now you've got all those things going on and you're doing it.

00:49:21.236 --> 00:49:24.056
I want you to know that's an incredible place if you're starting to notice that.

00:49:24.416 --> 00:49:28.516
And then over time, now you reach unconscious competence.

00:49:28.996 --> 00:49:32.996
It's just what you do. I don't put up with people calling me names.

00:49:33.336 --> 00:49:36.376
I know I'm okay and I don't even have to defend it.

00:49:37.096 --> 00:49:40.556
And that's where you can start to see that you're going to attract a different

00:49:40.556 --> 00:49:44.276
crowd. You're going to find yourself in better situations, better relationships.

00:49:45.016 --> 00:49:49.056
And while I'm rambling right now, there's a pretty interesting concept that

00:49:49.056 --> 00:49:51.156
I want to do an episode on at some point.

00:49:51.376 --> 00:49:55.516
And that's when people are in this position, and I'm still the marriage therapist

00:49:55.516 --> 00:49:57.016
in me is trying to save every marriage.

00:49:57.156 --> 00:50:00.976
That's not somebody coming in and I'm thinking, I don't know, we'll see how this goes.

00:50:01.156 --> 00:50:04.916
It really is. I'm assuming good intent when they come in and want to see if we can help them.

00:50:05.196 --> 00:50:09.336
But when a relationship gets to a point where it does seem like it's not long

00:50:09.336 --> 00:50:13.936
for wear, it's not viable, it's not sustainable, it's fascinating to see that

00:50:13.936 --> 00:50:19.616
people, often when they're still angry, that they think that I should be angry enough to leave.

00:50:19.876 --> 00:50:23.756
But I really believe that the fact they're angry still does mean they care.

00:50:23.876 --> 00:50:27.956
They need that person to understand. Or if that person would just understand, then we could be better.

00:50:28.436 --> 00:50:33.876
And while those things might be true, it seems like when somebody moves into

00:50:33.876 --> 00:50:38.416
apathy or just, you know what, I don't even have that fight in me.

00:50:38.536 --> 00:50:43.076
Some switch has flipped, something's turned. What is wild in the field of co-regulation,

00:50:43.456 --> 00:50:46.236
where there's the push and pull, push and pull, that all of a sudden,

00:50:46.416 --> 00:50:49.276
when you find yourself not being that anxious pursuer.

00:50:50.061 --> 00:50:54.541
That then now the narcissistic person, they feel off. Where's my supply?

00:50:54.861 --> 00:50:58.041
So now they're going to pick at you, poke holes at the things that you're saying,

00:50:58.061 --> 00:51:01.241
but you may be at a point there where it's, I'm not doing that anymore.

00:51:01.601 --> 00:51:05.281
And that's where you may realize that you deserve to be in a relationship with

00:51:05.281 --> 00:51:08.101
somebody who values you in a reciprocal

00:51:08.101 --> 00:51:11.721
relationship where there's genuine curiosity, shared experiences.

00:51:12.361 --> 00:51:16.901
There's a version of a relationship, I promise you, where there isn't a component

00:51:16.901 --> 00:51:20.621
of somebody telling you what you're doing is wrong or what they need you to

00:51:20.621 --> 00:51:22.841
do for them and saying it in that way.

00:51:23.021 --> 00:51:25.881
Like, if you don't do this, then I'm disappointed in you.

00:51:26.521 --> 00:51:30.221
It's a place of you're going to be doing you. I'm going to be doing me.

00:51:30.481 --> 00:51:33.861
Of course, we're two completely different humans, but I want to know you.

00:51:34.101 --> 00:51:37.301
Hey, tell me about why you said that. Why do you do this thing,

00:51:37.421 --> 00:51:38.641
this routine that you do?

00:51:38.781 --> 00:51:41.381
When you get in a healthy relationship, the first thing that you might think

00:51:41.381 --> 00:51:43.721
is like, oh no, did I have any trouble? Am I doing something wrong.

00:51:44.541 --> 00:51:47.821
Unfortunately, that's what happens when you're in the unhealthy relationships.

00:51:48.301 --> 00:51:52.281
Because I promise you, what if you're okay as you are?

00:51:52.421 --> 00:51:58.521
You've been trying to defend your existence, your truths, your beliefs,

00:51:58.601 --> 00:52:04.141
your life, when in reality, you should just be living it as your partner would be.

00:52:04.301 --> 00:52:08.641
And now there's genuine curiosity and you're going to have some amazing,

00:52:09.041 --> 00:52:10.321
wonderful shared experiences together.

00:52:10.481 --> 00:52:15.081
A couple of weeks ago, I did an episode where I talked We talked about the double agent of your memory.

00:52:15.301 --> 00:52:19.001
We talked about implicit memory and how your nervous system keeps records that

00:52:19.001 --> 00:52:20.941
your conscious mind can't always access.

00:52:21.421 --> 00:52:24.701
That's where I was headed. Let me get back to that because I think it explains

00:52:24.701 --> 00:52:27.161
something that's really important about the concept of the pop.

00:52:27.441 --> 00:52:32.541
Explicit memory is your conscious recall. It's the who said what and when version of events.

00:52:32.721 --> 00:52:36.441
I think as we've been talking about today, that's most vulnerable to being undermined

00:52:36.441 --> 00:52:40.941
by paltering, by the pop, because every individual statement has enough truth

00:52:40.941 --> 00:52:42.341
in it that the timeline can get muddy.

00:52:42.761 --> 00:52:46.281
But the implicit memory is different. Implicit memory is the stuff stored in

00:52:46.281 --> 00:52:47.621
your body, your nervous system.

00:52:48.041 --> 00:52:50.981
It's not the memory of what was said. It's more of the memory of how things

00:52:50.981 --> 00:52:54.261
felt. An implicit memory is very, very hard to gaslight.

00:52:54.949 --> 00:52:58.769
Your body keeps a running record of every conversation that left you feeling

00:52:58.769 --> 00:52:59.929
smaller than when you started.

00:53:00.189 --> 00:53:04.109
Every exchange that ended with you apologizing for being upset.

00:53:04.569 --> 00:53:08.089
Every moment where the truth just seemed to slip through your fingers,

00:53:08.409 --> 00:53:10.929
just, oh man, I thought I had the truth. I thought it was making sense.

00:53:11.509 --> 00:53:15.249
The knot in your stomach when that person walks in the room is part of your

00:53:15.249 --> 00:53:17.569
implicit memory or what it feels like to be you.

00:53:17.689 --> 00:53:20.929
The way you tense up before bringing up a topic because you know it's going

00:53:20.929 --> 00:53:23.649
to get redirected, that's logged in your implicit memory.

00:53:23.649 --> 00:53:26.609
The fact that you have to rehearse conversations before you have them,

00:53:26.929 --> 00:53:30.029
trying to anticipate how your reality is going to be challenged because you

00:53:30.029 --> 00:53:32.969
know it's going to be, that's your nervous system protecting you because it's

00:53:32.969 --> 00:53:34.849
learned through the slow residue

00:53:34.849 --> 00:53:38.309
of lived experience that your perception is going to be questioned.

00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:42.869
Your gut is not broken. It's not off. Your body's not lying to you.

00:53:43.409 --> 00:53:47.069
The feeling that something was off was your most reliable intelligence.

00:53:47.069 --> 00:53:51.289
And it's the one thing that the pop cannot touch. If you're recognizing this

00:53:51.289 --> 00:53:55.029
pattern, and if you've been in a relationship where technically true statements

00:53:55.029 --> 00:54:00.269
left you feeling confused and responsible and questioning your own memory, what do you do with that?

00:54:00.709 --> 00:54:05.669
I want to throw out a few orienting ideas. It's not a, just do these five things

00:54:05.669 --> 00:54:08.749
and you'll be fixed because it isn't that kind of a situation.

00:54:08.949 --> 00:54:12.429
There's so many variables, so many things going on. But here's some things that

00:54:12.429 --> 00:54:15.729
I've seen that do help stop arguing the individual kernels.

00:54:15.849 --> 00:54:19.029
And I know it goes against every instinct because when something feels misleading,

00:54:19.029 --> 00:54:23.469
The natural response is to challenge or be curious about the specific claim.

00:54:24.279 --> 00:54:28.359
But you didn't tell me that important part, but you knew what impression that would give me, right?

00:54:28.939 --> 00:54:33.619
And they will respond with some sort of defense. I said exactly what happened.

00:54:33.999 --> 00:54:38.739
And now you're in a loop arguing facts. I want to air quote that while the larger

00:54:38.739 --> 00:54:39.999
pattern is going unnamed.

00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.319
Here's how you reframe that. You're not trying to prove that a specific statement was false.

00:54:44.899 --> 00:54:48.919
Maybe you're naming the larger pattern. What that would sound like in practice

00:54:48.919 --> 00:54:52.999
is, man, I noticed that in a lot of conversations, I walk away feeling that

00:54:52.999 --> 00:54:53.919
I misunderstood something.

00:54:54.279 --> 00:54:58.639
And I'm genuinely curious about why that happens. Now, you're saying that because

00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.419
it's the right thing to say, but it needs to be outcome independent.

00:55:02.819 --> 00:55:05.519
It needs to be completely void

00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:09.659
of worrying about what comes back if you are in a position to do that.

00:55:09.919 --> 00:55:15.419
Because over time, you can start to move from arguing the kernels to naming the pop.

00:55:15.699 --> 00:55:20.999
And this is one of the most difficult things that happens because I really want

00:55:20.999 --> 00:55:25.199
to be intentional or clear about this because this is part of what I love about

00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:30.739
David Schnarch's work in constructing your crucible because you can't construct this crucible.

00:55:31.346 --> 00:55:34.706
Until you really have done the work to become more grounded,

00:55:34.906 --> 00:55:39.226
more differentiated, knowing that I don't need that person to understand,

00:55:39.426 --> 00:55:40.686
of course I would like them to.

00:55:40.946 --> 00:55:44.326
But if I need them to understand, you can feel the energy with that.

00:55:44.826 --> 00:55:49.046
And that's still in the I need validation bucket. Narsh also talks about being

00:55:49.046 --> 00:55:51.966
able to soothe your own self, calm your own anxiety.

00:55:52.146 --> 00:55:55.566
And that's where the runway concept comes in. That's where the mindfulness,

00:55:55.786 --> 00:55:59.946
the meditation, that if I can stay grounded in a situation where I'm being told

00:55:59.946 --> 00:56:03.246
that I did things I didn't or things are being turned back around on me,

00:56:03.726 --> 00:56:06.306
then I can get to this third point of balance of differentiation,

00:56:06.306 --> 00:56:09.226
which is a grounded response. I'm not gonna get big and yell.

00:56:09.446 --> 00:56:12.666
I'm not gonna play small, but I'm okay.

00:56:12.926 --> 00:56:16.106
And then the fourth point of balance is knowing that growth is gonna come from

00:56:16.106 --> 00:56:17.486
discomfort, but it's my growth.

00:56:17.606 --> 00:56:21.626
If you're in a healthy relationship, it's the discomfort of the difficult conversations,

00:56:21.926 --> 00:56:25.326
but you're both committed to figuring out how to have those difficult conversations.

00:56:25.786 --> 00:56:31.226
This fourth point of balance of differentiation is I know that I'm okay and

00:56:31.226 --> 00:56:36.166
they're saying things and I'll even take ownership of the things that I can

00:56:36.166 --> 00:56:39.806
take ownership of because that's a me thing and that'll give me things that I can work on.

00:56:39.986 --> 00:56:42.426
But I'm not going to take ownership for things that aren't mine.

00:56:43.106 --> 00:56:46.166
And I've dropped the rope of the tug of war on trying to get this person to

00:56:46.166 --> 00:56:47.506
understand because I understand.

00:56:48.026 --> 00:56:52.006
You can't speed run through those four points of balance of differentiation, I'm afraid.

00:56:52.306 --> 00:56:57.466
But as you become okay as you are, learning about yourself in a relationship,

00:56:57.726 --> 00:56:59.446
not needing external validation.

00:56:59.846 --> 00:57:03.486
But again, it would be great, but I don't need it to know who I am.

00:57:03.746 --> 00:57:08.826
And I'm learning to calm myself to build up that runway until my amygdala is hijacked.

00:57:08.866 --> 00:57:13.946
And I can stay grounded because I have to be very grounded if I'm going to try to express myself.

00:57:14.446 --> 00:57:18.026
But it's not expressing myself, so they will get it. And I think that's the

00:57:18.026 --> 00:57:21.346
big component. Again, I'm not trying to give them the aha moment or the epiphany.

00:57:21.849 --> 00:57:26.969
And what I think is really significant is when I go back to my initial five

00:57:26.969 --> 00:57:29.989
commandments of being in a relationship with a narcissist or emotionally immature

00:57:29.989 --> 00:57:33.669
partner, raising your emotional baseline, getting your PhD in gaslighting,

00:57:33.889 --> 00:57:35.229
getting out of unproductive conversations.

00:57:35.969 --> 00:57:38.969
Setting healthy boundaries and learning the difference between a boundary and ultimatum.

00:57:39.209 --> 00:57:43.209
The fifth one, the most significant one is I never will give that person their

00:57:43.209 --> 00:57:44.349
aha moment or their epiphany.

00:57:44.869 --> 00:57:49.329
For most of the people I'm working with, then there isn't much of a need to

00:57:49.329 --> 00:57:55.569
say anything in a situation like this, where there's the pop and you're feeling crazy,

00:57:56.089 --> 00:58:00.849
that for a lot of people, my advice would be that there's nothing productive

00:58:00.849 --> 00:58:02.769
about trying to be heard or understood.

00:58:03.149 --> 00:58:06.829
But then when you really dig deep into differentiation, and this is especially

00:58:06.829 --> 00:58:10.309
important for people that do feel like they are not in a position where they

00:58:10.309 --> 00:58:13.929
can leave their marriage, maybe there's the financial implications or familial

00:58:13.929 --> 00:58:17.209
pressure, community pressure, church pressure, whatever that looks like.

00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:21.100
And I'm speaking to the person that you are going through life as you.

00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:25.040
I'm sure other people will tell you you need to get out or they're projecting

00:58:25.040 --> 00:58:27.540
that I would if I were you, but nobody knows what it feels like to be you.

00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:33.040
So in those situations, Schnarch's concept of constructing your crucible is so fascinating,

00:58:33.620 --> 00:58:38.300
because he then says, when you hit gridlock, and I don't think we can genuinely

00:58:38.300 --> 00:58:42.760
hit gridlock until you are pretty well-versed in those four points of balance

00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:47.120
of not needing external validation, knowing who you are without that.

00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:51.060
Soothing your own self, calming your own anxiety, a grounded response,

00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:53.800
and then knowing that growth comes from discomfort, and then taking ownership

00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:57.760
of the things that I can or need to, and making effort for change.

00:58:58.020 --> 00:59:01.040
And you rinse and repeat those over and over until you know you're okay.

00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:06.020
So now you're going to hit gridlock with something. I know that I would love

00:59:06.020 --> 00:59:12.080
to be understood, and he or she is not genuinely curious or wanting to understand me.

00:59:12.180 --> 00:59:15.380
As a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite. Anything I'm saying becomes an attack surface.

00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:18.880
At that point, then I can set a boundary. If that's the case,

00:59:19.020 --> 00:59:20.120
then I'm not going to say a word.

00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:24.840
But I have found that when people do feel stuck in the relationship and they

00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:29.800
still want to do work and grow, this is where this concept of crucible comes into play.

00:59:30.040 --> 00:59:34.720
Because I take my unresolved personal issue out of this gridlock situation and

00:59:34.720 --> 00:59:36.260
I confront it as an act of integrity.

00:59:36.620 --> 00:59:40.900
Now I'm going to say the thing because I'm one who says things.

00:59:41.100 --> 00:59:43.280
I'm going to say the thing because it's the right thing for me to say,

00:59:43.420 --> 00:59:48.440
but I'm accepting the fact that it most likely still can and will be used against me.

00:59:48.520 --> 00:59:52.020
I'm providing an attack surface, but I am outcome independent.

00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:54.620
They can say what they want to say at that point.

00:59:55.140 --> 00:59:58.760
So I just, I hope that I was intentional enough about that because I do get

00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:02.600
a lot of feedback from that of where sometimes people, they feel like they can't let something go.

01:00:03.385 --> 01:00:06.825
Which I understand. And sometimes I think that's maybe their own nervous system,

01:00:06.925 --> 01:00:10.805
their own brain saying, I want to be able to tell myself that I am doing something.

01:00:11.025 --> 01:00:14.785
And for some, doing is dropping the rope at the tug of war. It is setting the

01:00:14.785 --> 01:00:15.745
boundary and walking away.

01:00:16.065 --> 01:00:19.825
It is learning how to handle the fact that their narcissistic partner is going

01:00:19.825 --> 01:00:21.865
to continue to construct a narrative that just isn't true.

01:00:22.365 --> 01:00:27.685
But for others, it is constructing this crucible and saying things because that's the things I say.

01:00:27.825 --> 01:00:31.645
One of the ways to start getting to that as well is asking yourself the question

01:00:31.645 --> 01:00:35.645
after one of these kind of conversations and not saying, what did they actually say?

01:00:35.785 --> 01:00:37.965
But how do I feel after we talk?

01:00:38.325 --> 01:00:42.125
Because if you consistently feel smaller and more confused, more responsible,

01:00:42.285 --> 01:00:44.745
more like you need to monitor every word, pay attention to that.

01:00:44.985 --> 01:00:51.045
That is data and that residue is more of your implicit memory handing you intelligence.

01:00:51.525 --> 01:00:54.925
And it's worth more than you've been told it is.

01:00:55.465 --> 01:00:58.465
You don't need a confession to trust your experience. And

01:00:58.885 --> 01:01:03.425
one of the most painful traps in this pattern is waiting the defensive caught

01:01:03.425 --> 01:01:09.245
you moment, the smoking gun, the clear, unambiguous proof that you feel like

01:01:09.245 --> 01:01:10.865
will finally validate what you already know.

01:01:11.613 --> 01:01:15.793
Because paltering almost never produces that moment. There is no obvious lie.

01:01:16.313 --> 01:01:19.133
So here's what I'd like to offer you instead, that you don't need them to admit

01:01:19.133 --> 01:01:20.413
it for your experience to be real.

01:01:20.593 --> 01:01:23.713
The cumulative picture, the one that your body's been keeping track of,

01:01:23.893 --> 01:01:27.433
even when your explicit memory of events gets tangled, that implicit memory,

01:01:27.533 --> 01:01:30.793
that picture is valid without the confession, without the smoking gun.

01:01:31.333 --> 01:01:35.413
So you are allowed to name what you've experienced, not because somebody gives

01:01:35.413 --> 01:01:39.113
you permission and not because you need them to understand, but it's because

01:01:39.113 --> 01:01:43.733
you understand. in because it happened to you and that can be all you need to

01:01:43.733 --> 01:01:44.533
construct this crucible.

01:01:44.993 --> 01:01:47.753
So what did we learn today? Here's where I would love to land.

01:01:48.193 --> 01:01:53.493
The pop is one of the most subtle and effective dynamics in the narcissist or

01:01:53.493 --> 01:01:54.953
the emotionally immature person's toolkit.

01:01:55.453 --> 01:01:57.993
Not always because it's planned. It's not like they're planned.

01:01:58.093 --> 01:02:01.053
They're reacting in the moment with whatever they need to put them in the one-up

01:02:01.053 --> 01:02:02.893
position because for them, it works.

01:02:03.233 --> 01:02:07.833
It keeps them technically defensible and it leaves the other person carrying

01:02:07.833 --> 01:02:09.693
the confusion, the self-doubt, the

01:02:09.693 --> 01:02:12.413
constant effort of trying to hold on to reality. It's not always lying.

01:02:12.733 --> 01:02:16.713
Sometimes it's the strategic or instinctive deployment of truth.

01:02:17.293 --> 01:02:21.593
And I think it really matters to name that because so many people in these relationships

01:02:21.593 --> 01:02:25.013
have turned this on themselves and they've said, I can't prove anything.

01:02:25.153 --> 01:02:29.593
I can't point to a specific lie. It sounds like they are saying the right thing or the words are true.

01:02:29.973 --> 01:02:33.373
So maybe I'm the problem and you're not. You are not the problem.

01:02:34.113 --> 01:02:37.573
Confusion in the face of consistent half-truths is not a character flaw.

01:02:37.713 --> 01:02:42.193
It's a relational survival response to a genuinely confusing situation.

01:02:42.533 --> 01:02:44.893
And the fact that your gut was telling you something was wrong,

01:02:45.053 --> 01:02:49.193
even when you couldn't prove exactly what, that's not a form of weakness.

01:02:49.713 --> 01:02:53.793
You're not dumb or stupid or anything. It's intelligence. That's your nervous

01:02:53.793 --> 01:02:54.993
system trying to do its job.

01:02:55.293 --> 01:02:58.353
And that line that so many of you have probably said to yourself,

01:02:58.593 --> 01:03:00.753
I knew something didn't make sense or add up.

01:03:00.833 --> 01:03:04.633
I just couldn't prove it. that is not even close to a failure.

01:03:04.973 --> 01:03:06.733
That's part of the waking up process.

01:03:07.553 --> 01:03:11.373
That is the moment. Your implicit memory finally found the words,

01:03:11.373 --> 01:03:14.993
and it's trying to tell you something just so it can at least imprint that in your soul.

01:03:15.713 --> 01:03:19.953
Because once you can name something and just give it life, you bring it out

01:03:19.953 --> 01:03:22.813
from the shadow and into the light, something shifts.

01:03:23.013 --> 01:03:26.453
And now it doesn't undo what happened. It doesn't all of a sudden make it better,

01:03:27.173 --> 01:03:30.893
but it starts to restore just a little bit of what was taken from you.

01:03:31.333 --> 01:03:33.993
It starts to restore this confidence in your own perception,

01:03:34.273 --> 01:03:37.753
your trust in your own experience, your right to call something out,

01:03:37.973 --> 01:03:40.233
something's wrong without needing their permission.

01:03:40.673 --> 01:03:45.573
You knew and you were right to know. I appreciate you joining me on this journey today.

01:03:45.813 --> 01:03:49.073
If this resonated with you, if you want to share it with somebody, please, by all means do.

01:03:49.413 --> 01:03:53.893
If you have examples of this pop, please send them in. I would love to include

01:03:53.893 --> 01:03:55.173
those on an upcoming episode.

01:03:55.393 --> 01:03:59.093
You can send them through my website at TonyOverbay.com or you can email me

01:03:59.093 --> 01:04:00.933
directly at contact at TonyOverbay.com.

01:04:01.313 --> 01:04:04.213
And if you have questions, if you have stories, if there's anything that you

01:04:04.213 --> 01:04:07.573
would like to share, I read everything that I can. I will see you next time

01:04:07.573 --> 01:04:08.653
on Waking Up to Narcissim.