WEBVTT

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So I think I need to be the one that breaks something to you.

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There is somebody in your life who is not who you think that they are.

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And they have been with you for so long, decades, even since the beginning.

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They were there when you learned to ride a bike, when you had your first kiss,

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when you graduated from high school. They were there on your wedding day.

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And they've also been there through a lot of the hard times.

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They were there the night that everything fell apart.

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They've been there for every conversation, every argument, even every quiet

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moment where you sat in the car in the driveway and just try to figure out, am I losing my mind?

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Now, they have been, at times, your most trusted confidant, the one that you

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turned to when you needed to know what really did happen.

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When the ground moves under your feet, they're the one that you reach for.

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And for a long time, they were very reliable.

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When somebody told you, you don't think the sky green they

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whisper it's not it's blue i'm here i see it

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but over time something changed it was

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really subtle at first a real small detail here a

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shifted timeline there it's not anything that you would look at as any kind

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of sense of betrayal but it was more like just static this buzz this hum in

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the background like a signal that used to come in really clear but now occasionally

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drops out you miss a few things it drops out just long enough to make you wonder

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wait did i did i hear things right.

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But over time, the static got worse and you would still reach for them in the middle of an argument.

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Wait, wait, that is not what happened. But now they kind of hesitate just even

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for a beat, just long enough for doubt to slide in through the crack for you

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and the person across from you, the one who you're maybe having a conversation

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with, and it feels almost like they're rewriting the story in real time.

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They would see that hesitation and then they would press harder.

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See, you don't even know. You can't even keep your own story straight.

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And all of a sudden, you're confident.

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The one who used to say, I was there. I saw it all, started saying something different.

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Yeah, well, maybe. I mean, maybe it did happen the way that they said.

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Maybe you are the problem. Maybe you're actually the narcissist.

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Now that, in hindsight, is when you should have known. That somewhere along

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the way, through hundreds of conversations where your reality was questioned

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and rewritten and denied, that they had actually been turned.

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Now in the intelligence world, they have a name for this. Somebody who wears

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the same uniform as you, sits at your table, has access to your most sensitive

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information, but it turns out secretly they're working for the other side,

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they call it a double agent.

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Now, what if the double agent in your life is, pause and insert dramatic music

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here, what if it's your memory?

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Hey everybody, welcome to Waking Up to Narcissim. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and also the host of the Virtual Couch Podcast.

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And if that opening had you going, okay, who is he talking about?

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Of course, that's kind of the point.

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Because when we think about the damage from being in a relationship with somebody

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who is emotionally immature or narcissistic, meaning somebody who struggles

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to take responsibility.

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Tolerate being wrong, or even try to empathize with how their behavior affects

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other people, we tend to focus on what they're doing to us.

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The gaslighting, the confabulation, the rewriting of history.

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And while all of that is real, what happens to your own memory after years of

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living in that environment?

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Because the damage isn't just that they lie about what happened.

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The damage is that eventually you start to lose confidence in your own ability to know what happened.

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Your memory, your internal record of reality gets compromised.

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It gets turned. And once that happens, you're not just fighting them anymore.

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You find out that you're kind of fighting yourself.

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Now I hear it in my office. I read it in the emails that so many of you are

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living in that space right now where you can't quite trust your own memory,

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but you're trying to get back in touch with your gut and your gut is at times

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absolutely screaming that something's wrong.

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And you often find yourself stuck between those two things.

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Am I going crazy? Is my memory compromised or are my gut instincts actually wrong?

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But I think I'm supposed to trust my gut and that can become exhausting and

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cause you to want to mentally kick the can and just, I'll figure it out later,

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later and later and later.

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And over time, that's just what it feels like to be you, that I'm not doing

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something. I worry I'm going crazy and I'll just figure it out later.

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And that exhaustion, that burning of emotional calories takes its toll.

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So today we're going to talk about why it happens, what it even is,

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how it happens, and maybe better yet, what you can do about it.

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Now, first, some good news. So even when your explicit memory,

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that's your conscious recall of events, it's the who said what and when,

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even when that part of your brain has become compromised, there's another kind

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of memory that is a lot harder to turn. And it's called your implicit memory.

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Implicit memory, you can think of that as the stuff that lives in your body.

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It's what shows up in your nervous system.

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So it's not necessarily the memory of what happened, but it's more of the memory of how things felt.

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And implicit memory is actually really, really hard to gaslight.

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But often we don't check in with our implicit memory, our gut feeling.

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So that anxious feeling when somebody walks in the room, implicit memory.

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Or that knot in your stomach when somebody starts a sentence with,

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you know, actually, that's your implicit memory.

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Or the way that you find yourself rehearsing conversations in your head before

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you even have them because you are trying to get your facts so airtight that

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the person that you're about to communicate with cannot poke holes in what you're about to say.

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That's your implicit memory trying desperately to get a message through,

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even though your conscious memory, your double agent keeps telling you, no, everything's fine.

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Now, if we're going to stick with the spy metaphor, your implicit memory is

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the one loyal agent that's still trying to pass you notes under the table saying

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something's actually not right here.

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You know, the official report says everything's great, but the intel is not lining up.

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And so many people in these kind of relationships have had the experience of

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feeling crazy, not being able to point to any specific thing.

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I want to say death by a thousand cuts, anybody, because pretty much every specific

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thing when it has been brought up has been explained away, rewritten,

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confabulated, but still feeling in their bones, in their gut,

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that something is deeply wrong.

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So, if something's wrong, it must be something wrong with me because if it's

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wrong with me, then I can fix it.

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And if I can fix it, then that doesn't mean that I am going crazy.

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But it's nice to feel like there's something you can do.

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And that becomes the tension between a compromised explicit memory and an implicit

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memory that refuses to defect to the other side.

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And that's a good thing. You're still fighting for your sanity.

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So, if that's you, if you can't quite trust your own recollection,

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but your gut continues to scream at you, I would love for you to really hone in on this.

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Right now, let's go with your gut is not crazy. Your body is not trying to lie

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to you. That feeling though is data.

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And right now that feeling is your most reliable intelligence.

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And that's the one thing that confabulation, the big thing that we're going

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to talk about today, can't truly touch.

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But, and I think beginning to understand what is actually happening will allow

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us to start to tap into what your gut feeling is, what your gut is trying to

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tell you, the stories your brain is trying to tell you.

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And even then, that doesn't mean that the first thing that comes to your mind

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is the correct story. We're going to change, hopefully, the relationship with your thoughts.

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A quick side note before we get into the mechanics of the topic today, confabulation.

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And what is confabulation? You still may be wondering that.

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It has been a couple of years or more since I did an episode on confabulation,

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but I'm getting a new crop of listeners who are saying, what is this confabulation that you speak of?

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Because it seems like you're pretty confident that it's a significant part of

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what it feels like to be in a relationship with a narcissist or somebody who's emotionally immature.

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And that is absolutely correct. And I have to start from a place of humor.

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Of course, confabulation sounds like a fun card game.

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It's essentially the rewriting of history, which can be happening in real time

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when you're talking with a narcissist or somebody who is extremely emotionally immature.

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And I want to say that if you find that starting to realize that your partner

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is potentially a pathological or a compulsive liar is a challenge to a relationship,

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and it is, don't get me wrong, or if you've now got your PhD in gaslighting,

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one of the things that I really encourage somebody to raise their baseline,

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get that PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations.

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Learn to set healthy boundaries, know the difference between a boundary and

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an ultimatum, and realize you are not going to give the person the aha moment or the epiphany.

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So that gaslighting is a pretty important part of waking up, the waking up process.

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Once you're aware of it, and now again, if you find gaslighting to be pretty

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difficult to deal with, because again, it really is,

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and today we'll talk about how being aware of both of those,

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lying and gaslighting can be extremely helpful, even if you don't know what

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to do when the person you're interacting with is doing either of them.

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But there's definitely this sense of comfort and understanding that you're not

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crazy and recognizing when either is happening.

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But confabulation is where we really get into whether or not we're dealing with something,

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somebody who truly just doesn't know what they don't know versus more of maybe

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we'll call it a capacity issue, as in something that you can't eventually come

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back to and talk through later,

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even with newfound courage or clarity or confidence.

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Because when somebody is confabulating a story, that story changes in that person's mind.

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And we're talking, it hasn't just been erased on the page and written over,

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because if that was the case, then you could maybe go show them that there's

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still eraser marks on the paper, and we can still read the story underneath.

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Not in the world of confabulation to carry through with this analogy,

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that piece of paper is now completely gone, replaced by a piece of cardstock

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with calligraphy writing to the point that now you absolutely do appear to be

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the crazy one for thinking that the story once had been written on line paper in the first place.

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So the person that you're talking to has subconsciously ripped apart and incinerated

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that line paper without even being aware that they did it because they've been

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doing that for as long as they have been alive. It's what they do.

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So let me give you a sneak preview of what we're going to dive deep into today.

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This concept of confabulation.

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Narcissistic or emotionally immature people often erase memories or they disassociate

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from memories in a way that appears like they have amnesia because their contact

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with the world and with people in their world is made up,

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constructed, and viewed through this factitious construct, also known as the

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false self, meaning that it is whatever and whoever they need it to be in each

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and every moment to ensure that they are continually in this one-up position.

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Narcissists do not experience reality directly. They experience it through a

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distorted lens, and it's a lens that initially developed in childhood.

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Their, we'll call them narcissistic goggles, have actually been strapped on

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for as long as they remember.

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So the way that they see the world and the way they experience reality isn't even up for debate.

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It's not up for introspection, to self-confrontation, to the

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point that anything that they view through those lenses becomes

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taken in and immediately colored with those lenses to help them

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make sense of the world and in particular how they show

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up and how they experience the world narcissism or

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emotional immaturity initially develops as a series of

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coping strategies that began as a way to try and navigate childhood and granted

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this is the part where they didn't feel safe as a child they had to navigate

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childhood in a way that left the person with this unstable self-esteem and these

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deep-seated insecurities that caused their brains to insist.

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Has to be one way. They are not at fault. They have to be the expert.

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They have to be the person in the one-up position. And if they do anything remotely

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wrong, then it could not and will not be tolerated. So it simply can't be their fault.

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But they also lack the ability to regulate their self-esteem without external

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validation. And by that, I mean, without interacting with another human,

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without interacting with somebody else who they can then put in a one-down position.

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And that is where we talk about the concept of the attack surface.

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They don't even know they exist unless they interact with somebody who they

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can then say, okay, you're wrong. I'm right. I can't believe you thought that.

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I feel better, but I'll move on because this also comes with little to no empathy.

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So these narcissistic goggles, this lens actually then requires them to eliminate

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any information that challenges their grandiose self-perception or the stories

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that they continually have made up or constructed about themselves as being the best.

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Nobody knows anything better than I do about this topic and this topic and this topic.

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That is absolutely necessary for them. And so what comes with that is also this

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ability for them to be able to eliminate.

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Extricate, excuse, get rid of and justify their narcissistic,

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their antisocial, their self-centered, their exploitative behaviors,

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choices, and generally the way that they show up in the world.

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So in an attempt to make up for any of these inconsistencies or gaps in memory,

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or to get rid of any parts of a story that don't put them in the one-up position,

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a narcissist or an incredibly emotionally immature person confabulates,

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meaning that they invent these plausible scenarios or these situations or these

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plugins of how things might.

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Could, or should have occurred.

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To the non-narcissistic person, these what basically seem to be made-up stories

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or made-up plugins that don't entirely make sense, they don't entirely fit timelines

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or even resemble what you might remember happen, it might quite frankly look like and sound like,

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downright lies, fabrications, made up stories, but the narcissist or the emotionally

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immature person desperately believes in, clings to for dear life and does anything

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necessary to believe their reality.

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And they will dig in their heels until you believe it too.

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They may not actually remember what happened, but it most definitely could not

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have happened any other way than the way that they need it to happen in order

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for them to fit this narrative that they've created.

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So then these little bits and pieces of filler of stories that they've created or confabulated,

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and often it's happening in real time, are going through constant revisions,

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as many as it needs to be to continue for them to make sense of whatever they're

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being confronted with or accused of.

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And it has to make sense to them, not to the listener, but to them.

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Because narcissists are emotionally immature individuals, their inner world

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and their external circumstances are continually evolving.

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So unlike somebody that has self-awareness or is even trying to figure things

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out, to the narcissist, they're constantly working from a place of deep insecurity.

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They absolutely cannot be at fault because that would disrupt this internal narrative.

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If they're wrong, then you may no longer love them. Period. End of story.

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Now, if you even try and explain to them that, hey, it's okay,

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I will love you anyway, then they will still take that opportunity and change

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the narrative until you aren't even questioning whether or not they did anything wrong.

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So, even when you bring something to them saying, no, I think I can do this,

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I can explain this in a way that they'll understand, you're just going to confabulation

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gym and giving them another workout to make them even stronger in being able

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to turn the narrative around.

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They have to control the narrative in order to control the relationship.

00:15:02.235 --> 00:15:05.695
They will coerce somebody into loving them or they'll do whatever is necessary

00:15:05.695 --> 00:15:09.875
to control them. but they cannot risk somebody else having any type of control,

00:15:10.035 --> 00:15:13.595
including control of the truth of a story and the control in the relationship.

00:15:13.855 --> 00:15:17.035
That is why narcissists and emotionally immature people often contradict themselves

00:15:17.035 --> 00:15:21.455
because tomorrow's confabulation, it most likely will negate today's story.

00:15:21.635 --> 00:15:25.195
The narcissist, the emotionally immature do not remember previous stories because

00:15:25.195 --> 00:15:29.915
they are not invested in the emotions, in the realities, the cognitions that

00:15:29.915 --> 00:15:32.635
are the true parts of real memory or real intimacy.

00:15:32.955 --> 00:15:35.515
Their memory is constantly subject to change.

00:15:36.415 --> 00:15:40.875
It's So this is why we need to take a quick tangent into the world of memory

00:15:40.875 --> 00:15:42.075
and how memories are built.

00:15:42.275 --> 00:15:44.815
And I just want to say right from the start, the majority of what I'm about

00:15:44.815 --> 00:15:47.995
to explain comes from a very good book called The Buddha's Brain,

00:15:48.175 --> 00:15:51.675
The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love and Wisdom by Rick Hansen.

00:15:51.795 --> 00:15:55.315
And no, you do not need to know anything about the Buddha or be a Buddhist,

00:15:55.435 --> 00:15:57.915
nor is there anything in the book that is truly outside the context of what

00:15:57.915 --> 00:16:01.175
I would imagine many of you have heard if you've been listening to any type

00:16:01.175 --> 00:16:03.735
of mental health related content over the past decade or more.

00:16:04.262 --> 00:16:08.762
So memory, let's jump in. Your brain is literally built from your experiences,

00:16:08.762 --> 00:16:10.022
all the things that you go through.

00:16:10.162 --> 00:16:14.182
And I don't mean that in a poetic, inspirational poster kind of way. I mean it physically.

00:16:14.482 --> 00:16:17.022
The same way that your body is built from the foods that you eat,

00:16:17.182 --> 00:16:20.422
for better or worse, protein builds muscle, calcium builds bone.

00:16:20.642 --> 00:16:23.342
Your brain is physically shaped by what you experience.

00:16:23.642 --> 00:16:28.102
Every interaction, every conversation, every moment that you are doom scrolling

00:16:28.102 --> 00:16:31.442
on the internet, every moment where somebody makes you feel safe or makes you

00:16:31.442 --> 00:16:35.262
feel small, that It is slowly sculpting the architecture of your brain.

00:16:35.562 --> 00:16:39.642
Now, some of that shaping you can recall. These are mainly the explicit memories.

00:16:39.982 --> 00:16:44.622
But most of what's happening in your memory happens below the surface, your implicit memory.

00:16:45.122 --> 00:16:49.622
It isn't just a feeling in your gut. It's your expectations about how relationships work.

00:16:49.842 --> 00:16:53.462
It's your models of what love looks like, what you witnessed growing up,

00:16:53.542 --> 00:16:57.262
what conflict looks like, how you get through things, what safety looks like.

00:16:57.342 --> 00:17:00.262
Do I take ownership of things or do I just go silent and wait till the storm

00:17:00.262 --> 00:17:04.002
passes? It's essentially whether the world feels pretty fundamentally safe or

00:17:04.002 --> 00:17:04.922
fundamentally dangerous.

00:17:05.122 --> 00:17:08.962
All of that was built piece by piece from the time you were a kid.

00:17:09.422 --> 00:17:12.782
So implicit memory isn't just passing you notes under the table.

00:17:12.982 --> 00:17:17.622
It's also what you view as the table. It's the room. It's the entire building.

00:17:17.822 --> 00:17:20.062
And so here's where this gets pretty crucial.

00:17:20.342 --> 00:17:25.282
Your brain also has a negativity bias because it is essentially a don't get killed device.

00:17:25.602 --> 00:17:28.982
Its primary job is not to make you happy. It's to keep you alive.

00:17:28.982 --> 00:17:34.482
So it is going to preferentially scan for, register, and store negative experiences.

00:17:34.762 --> 00:17:37.182
And I love how this has actually been described in the book.

00:17:37.342 --> 00:17:41.642
Your brain is like Velcro for negative experiences, and it's like Teflon for

00:17:41.642 --> 00:17:44.342
the positive ones. So the negative experiences stick.

00:17:44.642 --> 00:17:48.642
Positive experiences tend to slide right off. So even when your life has had

00:17:48.642 --> 00:17:52.702
maybe even more good than you realize, maybe even more good than bad,

00:17:52.882 --> 00:17:59.602
that pile of your negative implicit memories grows faster. So over time, if you are not working on.

00:18:00.275 --> 00:18:03.955
Being present, registering, acknowledging, journaling, some of your positive

00:18:03.955 --> 00:18:08.235
experiences, then that interior landscape or what it feels like to be you can

00:18:08.235 --> 00:18:10.375
start to become undeservedly dark.

00:18:10.595 --> 00:18:14.135
And it isn't necessarily even because your life is that bad.

00:18:14.235 --> 00:18:16.555
And I'm not saying that people don't have their challenges or struggles,

00:18:16.595 --> 00:18:19.375
but it's because your brain's keeping a pretty biased scorecard.

00:18:19.655 --> 00:18:24.375
Now, imagine then that negativity bias of the brain inside a relationship with

00:18:24.375 --> 00:18:28.395
somebody who is very emotionally mature or narcissistic, where your negative

00:18:28.395 --> 00:18:31.895
experiences aren't just these normal bumps in the road that then we're going

00:18:31.895 --> 00:18:33.175
to talk about and get through.

00:18:33.355 --> 00:18:36.635
And I'm actually going to use this relationship to grow.

00:18:36.895 --> 00:18:39.475
We're going to co-regulate. Some days I'm going to be on, some days they're

00:18:39.475 --> 00:18:41.875
going to be on. I might need a little bit more comfort from them.

00:18:41.995 --> 00:18:42.955
They might need some from me.

00:18:43.235 --> 00:18:49.175
But instead of that, these negative experiences are targeted at you and they can become relentless.

00:18:49.395 --> 00:18:52.715
The daily drip of being told that you're too sensitive or you're remembering

00:18:52.715 --> 00:18:57.675
it wrong or you're the problem or even just not responding, being nothing in

00:18:57.675 --> 00:19:01.535
the relationship, every one of those interactions also gets filed in your implicit

00:19:01.535 --> 00:19:03.435
memory with incredible precision.

00:19:03.715 --> 00:19:08.275
And the good moments, the things that you may really connect on, those slide right off.

00:19:08.575 --> 00:19:12.815
So your loyal agent isn't just keeping a record, it's keeping a lopsided record.

00:19:12.955 --> 00:19:16.635
And that's not a design flaw. It's actually your brain trying to protect you.

00:19:16.895 --> 00:19:22.115
And with that awareness, there are ways to try to take in and be more present

00:19:22.115 --> 00:19:25.675
with those positive experiences. This is where the hope comes in.

00:19:25.995 --> 00:19:31.015
Because the remedy to this is not suppressing negative experiences because they are going to happen.

00:19:31.555 --> 00:19:33.915
Because if you're trying to suppress them, that's avoidance.

00:19:34.315 --> 00:19:39.235
And it will slowly start to eat you alive. If you are so afraid of being anxious

00:19:39.235 --> 00:19:43.375
that you avoid all things that will cause anxiety, then anxiety is still running the ship.

00:19:44.089 --> 00:19:46.909
I love the concept of acceptance in the world of

00:19:46.909 --> 00:19:49.949
acceptance and commitment therapy that it means to take in without defense in

00:19:49.949 --> 00:19:52.829
its entirety so if i'm actually going to accept the fact that i am going

00:19:52.829 --> 00:19:57.329
to feel anxious then i can also go out and live and i am going to notice when

00:19:57.329 --> 00:20:01.169
oh here is one of those moments where i'm feeling anxious but then i think what

00:20:01.169 --> 00:20:06.229
we don't spend enough time on in a healthy way is the remedy of intentionally

00:20:06.229 --> 00:20:10.889
fostering positive experiences and not just saying i'm choosing to be happy,

00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:12.329
although that's great when it works.

00:20:12.709 --> 00:20:16.349
But when I am noticing that I am having a good experience, a good moment,

00:20:16.429 --> 00:20:18.189
a good feeling, then I need to take it in.

00:20:18.429 --> 00:20:22.149
I need to let it land. I need to now accept the fact that this moment,

00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:25.689
even though it too shall pass, is happening.

00:20:26.109 --> 00:20:30.529
And I want to take it in. I want to hold on to it long enough that it can make

00:20:30.529 --> 00:20:34.329
a little dent in my implicit memory or part of this slow residue of my lived

00:20:34.329 --> 00:20:36.609
experience, part of what it feels like to be me.

00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:42.189
And I'm not just talking about the vacations or the promotions or finding money on the sidewalk.

00:20:42.189 --> 00:20:45.429
I'm talking about the moment that somebody laughs at something that you said,

00:20:45.429 --> 00:20:47.689
or the moment that you laugh at something that somebody else said,

00:20:47.729 --> 00:20:50.829
or the couple of minutes that you might spend outside and the sun just hits

00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:54.069
your face, or the text from somebody that says, hey, hope you're having a great

00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:54.909
day or thinking about you.

00:20:55.049 --> 00:20:58.809
Those count, but they only count if you really allow yourself to let them in.

00:20:59.489 --> 00:21:03.069
And when you dig deeper into the book Buddha's Brain, There's a fascinating

00:21:03.069 --> 00:21:05.369
chapter where Rick Hansen says

00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:09.309
you can actually use these positive experiences to even heal old wounds.

00:21:09.429 --> 00:21:12.069
Now, this might best be done with the help of a good therapist or coach.

00:21:12.409 --> 00:21:16.989
But when you can think of good feelings, almost sinking into the places that

00:21:16.989 --> 00:21:21.329
hurt, kind of like a warm ointment or a salve, reaching down into the old injuries.

00:21:21.329 --> 00:21:26.869
If you felt powerless as a kid and you find yourself in a moment where you actually

00:21:26.869 --> 00:21:32.089
feel pretty powerful or strong and allow that to come in and then sink into

00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:37.009
those moments where you felt a lack of power as a child, that can be pretty healing.

00:21:37.249 --> 00:21:42.189
It doesn't fix it altogether, but you're starting to train your brain of this is a way that we can heal.

00:21:42.892 --> 00:21:45.992
If you carry sadness from a relationship that ended, let yourself really feel

00:21:45.992 --> 00:21:47.652
the love of people who are around

00:21:47.652 --> 00:21:51.432
you are still here or when you find connection at any part in the day.

00:21:51.692 --> 00:21:54.372
And I think I know my audience that I think some of you are going to turn this

00:21:54.372 --> 00:21:58.292
into another way to beat yourself up. So let me be clear. This is not about toxic positivity.

00:21:58.532 --> 00:22:02.592
This is not just think happy thoughts. What I'm talking about is balance of

00:22:02.592 --> 00:22:06.972
being able to accept the difficult experiences, be curious about them, sit with them.

00:22:07.152 --> 00:22:11.852
That's the acceptance and commitment therapy piece, but also make room and space for the positive.

00:22:12.292 --> 00:22:15.212
Because remember, you're going through life the very first time is you.

00:22:15.512 --> 00:22:18.672
You are a unique combination of your nature, nurture, birth order,

00:22:18.792 --> 00:22:22.292
DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams, and all the things that make you you.

00:22:22.452 --> 00:22:25.532
It turns out that you think and feel the way you do because you do.

00:22:25.792 --> 00:22:27.792
Not your automatic negative thoughts, your stinking thinking,

00:22:27.792 --> 00:22:30.612
you're not broken, you're a human being going through life for the very first

00:22:30.612 --> 00:22:32.892
time. So check that out. That is the thing.

00:22:33.352 --> 00:22:37.392
This is what ties us back to today's topic. If your brain is Velcro for negative

00:22:37.392 --> 00:22:40.712
and you've been living in an environment where negative experiences are manufactured

00:22:40.712 --> 00:22:44.652
on the daily, as the kids probably don't say anymore, then your implicit memory

00:22:44.652 --> 00:22:46.552
is carrying an enormous amount of weight.

00:22:46.872 --> 00:22:51.572
It's, I guess, maybe walking around with one of those weighted vests that I see everybody wearing.

00:22:51.892 --> 00:22:54.272
Probably a bad analogy because those could make you stronger as well.

00:22:54.392 --> 00:22:57.152
We're not talking about carrying around emotional weight in a way that it will

00:22:57.152 --> 00:22:59.292
all of a sudden make you more robust and strong.

00:22:59.412 --> 00:23:02.912
And some of that weight is from the relationship that you are in now. Absolutely.

00:23:03.512 --> 00:23:07.352
Some of it, though, is from much further back. Good old childhood wounds you

00:23:07.352 --> 00:23:09.552
didn't even know that you were carrying until somebody came along,

00:23:09.772 --> 00:23:13.352
maybe in the relationship you're in now, and then pressed right on top of those wounds.

00:23:13.772 --> 00:23:17.552
So I would encourage you not to be angry with yourself for understanding that

00:23:17.552 --> 00:23:21.292
or experiencing that or feeling that because your brain was designed to learn

00:23:21.292 --> 00:23:24.212
from experience and especially negative experiences.

00:23:24.592 --> 00:23:27.872
So when I talk about your memory being turned, this double agent,

00:23:28.072 --> 00:23:31.792
I want you to understand that the playing field was never level and we're going to accept that.

00:23:32.032 --> 00:23:34.512
Your brain was already wired to hold on to the bad.

00:23:35.267 --> 00:23:38.167
And then somebody came along who figured out, consciously or not,

00:23:38.647 --> 00:23:43.207
that if they just kept feeding you enough bad, your own internal system would

00:23:43.207 --> 00:23:44.947
start doing their work for them.

00:23:45.307 --> 00:23:48.767
Not because you're weak, but because that's what brains do.

00:23:49.007 --> 00:23:53.107
So let's get back to what confabulation actually is, because hopefully now that

00:23:53.107 --> 00:23:56.367
we gave you a little intro on confabulation, talked about the way memory works,

00:23:56.707 --> 00:24:00.927
that now understanding the mechanics will hopefully take some of the sting out of it.

00:24:01.267 --> 00:24:04.767
And I want to talk about why the stories keep changing. Why trying to win the

00:24:04.767 --> 00:24:07.427
memory argument is literally a losing game.

00:24:07.647 --> 00:24:10.207
And then I'd love to give you something practical because if your memory has

00:24:10.207 --> 00:24:13.987
been turned, it's time for you to start running your own counterintelligence operation.

00:24:14.247 --> 00:24:17.667
But first, I want to separate three things that people tend to lump together.

00:24:17.827 --> 00:24:22.587
And we could do episodes on the first two. And I think I have in the past, but it's time to do more.

00:24:23.727 --> 00:24:27.767
Lying, gaslighting, and confabulation. Oh my. If we don't separate them,

00:24:28.147 --> 00:24:34.447
then we may even end up fighting the wrong battle. Now, lying is possibly the most straightforward.

00:24:35.007 --> 00:24:38.507
It's, for the most part, conscious deception. Somebody knows what happened and

00:24:38.507 --> 00:24:39.687
intentionally says something different.

00:24:40.007 --> 00:24:44.067
And there's an episode that I did with my friend Julie Lee in my Love,

00:24:44.267 --> 00:24:49.927
ADHD podcast where we talk about fibbing was added to the fight,

00:24:50.147 --> 00:24:55.387
flight, freeze, and fawn concept of it is a way to get out of discomfort.

00:24:55.387 --> 00:25:01.967
It is a survival instinct that some believe evolved just as we started evolving more speech.

00:25:02.207 --> 00:25:06.307
That now all of a sudden somebody could lie to alleviate their discomfort,

00:25:06.307 --> 00:25:07.987
to get out of trouble, to survive.

00:25:08.756 --> 00:25:13.536
So the motivation can vary depending on what the person's background is,

00:25:13.656 --> 00:25:17.456
their childhood is again, avoiding consequences, protecting an image, maintaining control.

00:25:17.836 --> 00:25:22.376
But the belief with lying is there is awareness. There's a bit of calculation.

00:25:22.376 --> 00:25:24.696
If somebody lies about a credit card charge, you find the receipt.

00:25:24.836 --> 00:25:29.676
You can sense that shift somewhere in the interaction, their strategy and they get caught.

00:25:29.836 --> 00:25:33.376
And then over time, you're hoping that they will start to realize,

00:25:33.576 --> 00:25:35.316
okay, I don't need to lie anymore.

00:25:35.996 --> 00:25:40.456
Gaslighting is different. I have done several episodes on gaslighting gaslighting

00:25:40.456 --> 00:25:43.996
isn't just changing the facts But it's also there to destabilize your perception

00:25:43.996 --> 00:25:47.356
of reality So the goal isn't just to avoid consequences and hopefully get away

00:25:47.356 --> 00:25:49.876
with it The goal is more or less to make you question your own mind.

00:25:49.916 --> 00:25:51.576
I never said that you're too sensitive

00:25:51.576 --> 00:25:54.456
You remembered it wrong and then layering it on you always do this.

00:25:54.596 --> 00:25:57.476
You need help There are a lot of people that think the same thing about you

00:25:57.476 --> 00:25:59.256
So that's not just self-protection.

00:25:59.396 --> 00:26:02.936
That's an attempt to then push it back and erode your confidence in your own

00:26:02.936 --> 00:26:06.396
experience because if you doubt yourself, then you're easier to manipulate.

00:26:06.396 --> 00:26:08.816
You're easier to manage. If you don't trust your own memory,

00:26:09.136 --> 00:26:10.816
you will start deferring to theirs.

00:26:10.916 --> 00:26:13.496
And then they have the control.

00:26:14.196 --> 00:26:18.296
Confabulation is where things get much more complicated and they can then be

00:26:18.296 --> 00:26:23.196
much more painful if you are not aware of what's happening because confabulation is not conscious.

00:26:23.256 --> 00:26:25.736
It's not always necessarily strategic.

00:26:26.016 --> 00:26:30.176
It's survival. It's when somebody's brain fills in gaps in memory with a version

00:26:30.176 --> 00:26:31.696
of events that protects their identity.

00:26:31.836 --> 00:26:35.656
And here's, I think, what can really twist you up inside, it's important to

00:26:35.656 --> 00:26:38.716
know that if it is confabulation, they believe the version that they're telling you.

00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:42.319
To understand, I think we got to go back to something really foundational.

00:26:42.659 --> 00:26:46.959
Emotionally immature, narcissistic people experience reality through this false

00:26:46.959 --> 00:26:52.499
self, this constructed identity that is built early in life as a childhood adaptation

00:26:52.499 --> 00:26:54.259
that allows them to survive.

00:26:54.499 --> 00:27:00.219
That identity formed in circumstances where self-esteem was absolutely unsafe, unstable.

00:27:00.719 --> 00:27:05.559
Love didn't just feel conditional. It was. And the shame was overwhelming.

00:27:05.999 --> 00:27:09.899
And shame is a, I am bad. Not I did something bad, but I am bad.

00:27:10.139 --> 00:27:13.179
So over time, the brain learns, I cannot afford to be wrong.

00:27:13.399 --> 00:27:19.479
I will not be wrong. I can't afford to be flawed in any way because that will threaten connection.

00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:23.819
So through that lens, any information that challenges this self-protective narrative,

00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:26.399
it has to be removed. It has to be reshaped.

00:27:26.619 --> 00:27:30.339
Because if something would place them at fault and that would evoke shame,

00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.339
that would imply that they may have even hurt somebody.

00:27:33.859 --> 00:27:38.919
Their nervous system experiences that as absolutely intolerable. It is unacceptable.

00:27:39.199 --> 00:27:42.899
And when something is intolerable, the brain adapts, it edits,

00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:47.299
it fills in the gaps, it creates these plausible explanations that keep the

00:27:47.299 --> 00:27:49.459
internal story intact for them.

00:27:49.899 --> 00:27:53.939
Simple examples. Imagine a fight at a dinner party where the person raised their

00:27:53.939 --> 00:27:55.119
voice and then you left early.

00:27:55.239 --> 00:27:58.699
Now, if they were lying, they might say, I didn't yell knowing full well,

00:27:58.799 --> 00:27:59.959
they did a simple example.

00:28:00.259 --> 00:28:04.399
They're gaslighting might even take it a little further. I actually didn't yell as a matter of fact.

00:28:05.164 --> 00:28:08.164
You're the one that's pretty dramatic. If anything, I think you were the one

00:28:08.164 --> 00:28:12.064
that was yelling and people were starting to already talk about how you overreacted.

00:28:12.184 --> 00:28:15.284
And there were people that were even worried about, I think you might end up yelling.

00:28:15.784 --> 00:28:20.384
And if they were confabulating, they might say, I wasn't even yelling. I was just passionate.

00:28:20.884 --> 00:28:25.144
And you're the one that started escalating the whole conflict to begin with.

00:28:25.304 --> 00:28:26.964
I was the one trying to calm it down.

00:28:27.424 --> 00:28:31.824
And as they say it, you can see that they mean it. Their brain has already reorganized the memory.

00:28:31.964 --> 00:28:36.004
So they are the reasonable one, because the alternative would collide too hard

00:28:36.004 --> 00:28:38.644
with their identity. This is why the story keeps changing.

00:28:39.024 --> 00:28:41.044
Yesterday's version may not even match today's.

00:28:41.444 --> 00:28:44.204
Tomorrow's could contradict both. To somebody anchored in accountability,

00:28:44.484 --> 00:28:49.064
then that inconsistency feels like proof of dishonesty. Oh, that is not what you said yesterday.

00:28:49.284 --> 00:28:51.884
But to somebody operating through this fragile self-concept,

00:28:52.024 --> 00:28:54.704
the story isn't anchored to this factual continuity.

00:28:54.864 --> 00:28:58.604
It's anchored to whatever they need to say in the present moment to protect

00:28:58.604 --> 00:29:00.284
their ego, for ego safety.

00:29:00.824 --> 00:29:04.784
So even as their internal state shifts, the narrative that they're going to

00:29:04.784 --> 00:29:08.844
share is going to adjust to continually preserve the version of themselves that

00:29:08.844 --> 00:29:10.484
they need to believe that they are.

00:29:10.704 --> 00:29:14.924
And that's what makes arguing with somebody that is in the world of confabulation exhausting.

00:29:15.364 --> 00:29:18.164
If somebody's lying, evidence can sometimes corner them.

00:29:18.444 --> 00:29:22.044
Somebody's gaslighting, evidence may escalate the battle, but you know,

00:29:22.164 --> 00:29:26.004
and you're learning to set a boundary. If they're doing this, then I'm going to leave.

00:29:26.184 --> 00:29:29.584
But if somebody's confabulating, evidence feels like an attack to their identity.

00:29:29.824 --> 00:29:31.844
And when their identity is threatened and their nervous system,

00:29:31.964 --> 00:29:32.644
it's going to double down.

00:29:33.044 --> 00:29:36.524
So the more you try to nail down the timeline, the more the timeline shifts.

00:29:36.764 --> 00:29:40.624
Now, understanding this is not an excuse of the behavior and it doesn't make

00:29:40.624 --> 00:29:45.264
it safe, but it explains why trying to win the memory argument feels like chasing smoke.

00:29:45.644 --> 00:29:48.484
You're bringing documentation to somebody whose brain will say,

00:29:48.604 --> 00:29:50.344
thank you. And I will rewrite this in real time.

00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:54.830
Let's go with an example that is often brought up when you do start to look

00:29:54.830 --> 00:29:56.350
at this concept of confabulation.

00:29:56.930 --> 00:29:59.590
Let's just say hypothetically, you're one of the most famous athletes in America.

00:29:59.770 --> 00:30:00.710
You've been adored for decades.

00:30:00.890 --> 00:30:03.350
You're charming. You're charismatic. You're successful. You're in movies and

00:30:03.350 --> 00:30:07.130
commercials, and your identity isn't just personal. It is cultural.

00:30:07.550 --> 00:30:09.990
You are the guy in the commercials, the guy that everybody roots for.

00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:13.010
And then let's say overnight, you're accused of something so horrific,

00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:14.710
it completely collides with that identity.

00:30:15.050 --> 00:30:18.790
In 1994, that's essentially what happened to OJ Simpson when he was accused

00:30:18.790 --> 00:30:20.890
of murdering his ex-wife and her friend, Ron Goldman.

00:30:21.470 --> 00:30:26.630
Now, he was eventually acquitted, but he was found liable in civil court and

00:30:26.630 --> 00:30:28.870
not wanting to relitigate the case.

00:30:28.990 --> 00:30:32.670
But what I think is more important to explore is the psychological dynamic that

00:30:32.670 --> 00:30:36.310
when somebody's identity is threatened at that level, the belief is that he

00:30:36.310 --> 00:30:38.130
truly did not think that he did it.

00:30:38.250 --> 00:30:43.810
His brain had almost sealed over this, I could have done it, just tight as a drum.

00:30:43.810 --> 00:30:48.730
So he did not do it because if a person's self-concept is built around being

00:30:48.730 --> 00:30:50.550
admired, being good, being justified,

00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:55.530
and if that is their entire internal architecture, if every bit of that says,

00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:00.110
I am not capable of that, then any evidence suggesting otherwise then creates

00:31:00.110 --> 00:31:03.990
such unbearable cognitive dissonance. The brain can't tolerate that.

00:31:04.810 --> 00:31:08.210
Confabulation in that case wouldn't look like somebody crafting this master

00:31:08.210 --> 00:31:09.710
deception to get out of being in trouble.

00:31:09.710 --> 00:31:14.010
It would look like a nervous system that is doing anything it can to preserve

00:31:14.010 --> 00:31:18.170
its own self-image filling in the blanks with the only version that allows the

00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:22.070
person to keep functioning psychologically So genuinely believing that you were

00:31:22.070 --> 00:31:26.710
framed focusing so intensely on procedural errors Not as a strategy,

00:31:27.050 --> 00:31:30.090
even though the attorneys might think that but for them as no,

00:31:30.090 --> 00:31:31.470
that's right This is an internal anchor.

00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:34.570
You're right. This is what I must have done. This is what I said This is correct

00:31:34.570 --> 00:31:38.070
And here's why I think this matters for most of you Most of you aren't dealing

00:31:38.070 --> 00:31:39.490
with high-profile criminal cases.

00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:43.510
You're dealing with arguments in kitchens and financial secrecy and emotional betrayal.

00:31:43.870 --> 00:31:48.790
But the mechanism is similar. If somebody can't tolerate being any sort of the, quote, bad guy.

00:31:49.537 --> 00:31:53.077
Their brain may rewrite history so that they were provoked if

00:31:53.077 --> 00:31:56.217
they can't tolerate being wrong they may genuinely remember themselves

00:31:56.217 --> 00:31:59.417
as being calm and you are the one that escalated and

00:31:59.417 --> 00:32:02.657
if they cannot even tolerate for a moment the idea that they might have hurt

00:32:02.657 --> 00:32:06.537
you then they didn't and they remember that you were the one that was overreacting

00:32:06.537 --> 00:32:10.637
and if you look at any kind of a high profile case and the stakes are public

00:32:10.637 --> 00:32:16.257
identity and somebody's legacy then it can seem very big and dramatic and grandiose.

00:32:16.257 --> 00:32:20.817
In a relationship, the stakes are attachment and control and love.

00:32:21.037 --> 00:32:24.657
If I am wrong, you might leave. If I am flawed, I might lose love.

00:32:24.897 --> 00:32:28.937
So for somebody whose self-esteem is so fragile and externally regulated,

00:32:29.357 --> 00:32:31.037
that will feel just as catastrophic.

00:32:31.237 --> 00:32:36.277
So the brain protects and it edits and it fills in. And over time, those edits are memory.

00:32:36.677 --> 00:32:39.217
The person across from you doesn't always look like they're lying.

00:32:39.417 --> 00:32:42.077
They look convinced. And that's what makes it so disorienting,

00:32:42.137 --> 00:32:46.237
because when somebody is confabulating the story, you're arguing with a story

00:32:46.237 --> 00:32:51.437
that their brain built to survive, and it can shift and change and adapt in real time.

00:32:51.677 --> 00:32:57.017
I want to talk about a very sensitive and real example of this that I have experienced

00:32:57.017 --> 00:33:00.417
on a number of occasions, but this is one that was probably one of the most

00:33:00.417 --> 00:33:03.617
profound. And so I've changed things, of course, to protect the innocent.

00:33:03.817 --> 00:33:07.497
But as a therapist who spends a lot of time with people who navigate faith journeys

00:33:07.497 --> 00:33:13.077
and faith crisis, I see this dynamic show up in a different but equally powerful way.

00:33:13.517 --> 00:33:16.597
I once worked with a couple whose adult child came out as gay,

00:33:16.657 --> 00:33:19.577
and both parents had held positions of leadership in their church.

00:33:19.757 --> 00:33:24.197
And it was a community that didn't openly affirm LGBTQ members.

00:33:24.517 --> 00:33:30.897
The unspoken message was, you can be here, but not fully. You can belong, but just not as you are.

00:33:31.197 --> 00:33:35.417
So over time, their child experienced a profound sense of depression.

00:33:35.737 --> 00:33:39.657
And eventually, that depression escalated to an attempt on their life.

00:33:40.417 --> 00:33:44.177
And that was the moment that everything cracked. I was working with the parents

00:33:44.177 --> 00:33:47.817
and the father broke down and you could see something collapse inside of him.

00:33:47.937 --> 00:33:51.837
And he began recognizing the ways that his child must have felt invisible.

00:33:52.257 --> 00:33:55.737
And he said things like, I really did think I was loving them.

00:33:55.917 --> 00:33:58.137
I didn't see what it was doing to them.

00:33:58.617 --> 00:34:03.437
And there was grief and shame and pain, but there was also a willingness to

00:34:03.437 --> 00:34:07.197
tolerate that pain to understand his child's experience.

00:34:07.837 --> 00:34:11.937
Now, the mother responded very differently. And I want to be so gentle here

00:34:11.937 --> 00:34:14.257
because it could be reversed as well.

00:34:14.617 --> 00:34:18.977
Because it wasn't in a villain sort of way. It was somebody whose nervous system

00:34:18.977 --> 00:34:23.177
couldn't tolerate the possibility that she had failed to protect her child.

00:34:23.577 --> 00:34:27.597
So as we explored the child's experience, and we're talking an adult child at

00:34:27.597 --> 00:34:31.317
this time when we did a little bit of family therapy, something fascinating

00:34:31.317 --> 00:34:35.217
and also heartbreaking happened in the office time and time again.

00:34:36.051 --> 00:34:39.691
She began to recount memory after memory of being supportive.

00:34:40.071 --> 00:34:42.611
Conversations where she would then claim that she had always said,

00:34:42.811 --> 00:34:46.091
I will always love you no matter what. My love is unconditional.

00:34:46.231 --> 00:34:52.311
Moments of openness that were completely foreign to both her husband and to her adult child.

00:34:52.691 --> 00:34:57.831
And her husband wanted her, and I guess it was him wanting them both to admit

00:34:57.831 --> 00:35:00.051
or acknowledge and own up to

00:35:00.051 --> 00:35:03.511
the fact that they didn't show up in the way that their child needed to.

00:35:03.511 --> 00:35:07.011
But even when he would try and have that conversation in therapy.

00:35:07.371 --> 00:35:12.511
Then she would villainize him and say, that was you. And that's the problem. I was never that way.

00:35:12.831 --> 00:35:16.231
It was almost like you could watch the confabulation happening in real time.

00:35:16.551 --> 00:35:20.991
Her husband would try to say things like, you know, that isn't really how I remember it.

00:35:21.331 --> 00:35:24.911
And then her child would gently say, Mom, that didn't happen.

00:35:25.271 --> 00:35:29.371
And she would double down, elaborating, adding details, reconstructing scenes

00:35:29.371 --> 00:35:33.951
with so many details and so much certainty. And this wasn't somebody who was

00:35:33.951 --> 00:35:35.371
trying to calmly craft a lie.

00:35:35.631 --> 00:35:40.571
It was somebody who desperately needed to build this new scaffolding under what

00:35:40.571 --> 00:35:42.191
felt like a collapsing identity.

00:35:42.511 --> 00:35:46.531
Because if she had not been supportive, if her silence had contributed to that

00:35:46.531 --> 00:35:49.451
level of despair, then she worried.

00:35:49.451 --> 00:35:54.331
What did that mean about her faith that she had been protecting and amplifying

00:35:54.331 --> 00:35:59.151
and sharing and living by her entire life? What did that say about her role as a mom?

00:35:59.311 --> 00:36:02.271
When that shame feels annihilating the brain

00:36:02.271 --> 00:36:04.911
protects her mind had to reorganize the

00:36:04.911 --> 00:36:07.671
narrative it filtered out moments where she deferred to

00:36:07.671 --> 00:36:12.371
the church's doctrine or her child's lived experience it amplified these tiny

00:36:12.371 --> 00:36:17.491
gestures of kindness into evidence of unwavering support and it often relocated

00:36:17.491 --> 00:36:22.931
responsibility outward onto the church onto her husband even onto her child

00:36:22.931 --> 00:36:25.591
saying that he could have been better at explaining himself.

00:36:26.464 --> 00:36:31.044
Because that version allowed her to remain the loving mom that she needed herself to be.

00:36:31.564 --> 00:36:35.584
And what was, it was so tender, it was unfortunate though, was the son was saying,

00:36:35.804 --> 00:36:41.844
I'm okay that you didn't know, but here's where we can now start to build and grow from.

00:36:41.944 --> 00:36:46.904
The father could start to tolerate this disruption in his identity of who he

00:36:46.904 --> 00:36:49.304
was, who he thought he was, and who he wants to be.

00:36:49.564 --> 00:36:52.844
He could sit with, I hurt my child

00:36:52.844 --> 00:36:57.564
and now I'm aware and I don't even know necessarily how to repair it.

00:36:57.864 --> 00:37:01.944
And all of those could be true. And that felt excruciating at times,

00:37:01.944 --> 00:37:04.284
but it also was a doorway to growth.

00:37:04.524 --> 00:37:09.064
But it appeared like the mom's nervous system said that can't be true.

00:37:09.324 --> 00:37:12.504
And when the nervous system decides something cannot be true,

00:37:12.824 --> 00:37:18.084
it has to bend the memory. One parent allowed this difficult experience and

00:37:18.084 --> 00:37:21.124
this crippling guilt to start to inform change.

00:37:21.444 --> 00:37:26.604
The other parent's brain attempted to eliminate shame by then rewriting the past.

00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.580
And i see that pattern show up often in the faith

00:37:30.580 --> 00:37:33.780
crisis world when identity is so deeply fused

00:37:33.780 --> 00:37:36.940
with being a good believer a good parent a good leader and

00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:39.820
then something challenges that narrative the threat isn't

00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:44.760
just to the relationship it can feel existential i see the same mechanism in

00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:49.180
people who encounter inconsistencies in their lifelong faith when somebody has

00:37:49.180 --> 00:37:53.600
staked their entire identity on a belief system and they start seeing discrepancies

00:37:53.600 --> 00:37:57.540
doctrinal shifts the resulting cognitive dissonance that can come from that.

00:37:57.740 --> 00:38:03.040
The psychological tension from holding two conflicting beliefs isn't just something

00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:09.020
happening at an intellectual level. It happens at this implicit memory or this visceral or gut level.

00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:14.240
And their brain really wants comfort. It wants certainty. It wants coherence.

00:38:14.660 --> 00:38:20.360
Resolution can happen by changing the belief or reinterpreting the new information

00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:21.860
or dismissing it altogether.

00:38:22.100 --> 00:38:27.060
So, for somebody whose identity is fused with that system, changing the belief can feel like death.

00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:30.280
So instead of dismantling the brain, then doubles down.

00:38:30.500 --> 00:38:35.340
It reinterprets any kind of contradictory evidence as maybe it's persecution

00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:42.120
or as test of your faith or as proof that the faith is under attack because it's so right and true.

00:38:42.975 --> 00:38:46.635
And they're not necessarily strategic deceptions, they're survival mechanisms.

00:38:47.075 --> 00:38:49.015
And the story shifts over time.

00:38:49.375 --> 00:38:53.495
One year, it might just be somebody or something's anti-religious bias.

00:38:53.735 --> 00:38:57.615
The next, it might be now, this is a test of my faith. And later,

00:38:57.795 --> 00:39:00.055
well, these things aren't even essential to my salvation.

00:39:00.675 --> 00:39:04.755
The narrative adjusts to manage the discomfort. Until somebody can tolerate

00:39:04.755 --> 00:39:06.275
the grief of discomfort,

00:39:06.435 --> 00:39:09.775
the grief of disillusionment, until they can sit with the fear of losing their

00:39:09.775 --> 00:39:13.875
belonging without being overtaken by it, the brain will keep choosing comfort

00:39:13.875 --> 00:39:15.855
and safety even over accuracy.

00:39:16.235 --> 00:39:22.075
And I promise you understanding this isn't about shaming anyone because I've

00:39:22.075 --> 00:39:23.395
found that it often invites empathy.

00:39:23.655 --> 00:39:28.075
What looks like stubbornness from the outside can feel like survival from the inside.

00:39:28.335 --> 00:39:31.635
The real work isn't trying to win an argument over somebody's doctrine.

00:39:31.835 --> 00:39:35.295
It's starting to create enough psychological safety that a person can look at

00:39:35.295 --> 00:39:39.915
the cracks they might find without feeling like they are staring into the valley of despair.

00:39:40.695 --> 00:39:43.995
That's when real growth becomes possible. Not when the evidence is airtight,

00:39:44.215 --> 00:39:47.135
but when the nervous system is steady enough to face it head on.

00:39:47.335 --> 00:39:50.855
Let me shift gears a little bit and talk about confabulation in an interrogation

00:39:50.855 --> 00:39:55.475
room, because this is where it is so fascinating to watch and why I will mention

00:39:55.475 --> 00:40:00.035
over and over again that I find myself and sometimes my whole social media feed

00:40:00.035 --> 00:40:01.815
is watching interrogation videos.

00:40:02.255 --> 00:40:06.115
There was one I saw at one point, and this is going back in the time machine

00:40:06.115 --> 00:40:11.095
a bit, but a man's wife has been found dead and he's the prime suspect.

00:40:11.375 --> 00:40:15.055
So he goes into the police station and he's calm and he's controlled.

00:40:15.055 --> 00:40:17.955
And he lets the officers know, hey, I'm happy to be here.

00:40:18.055 --> 00:40:20.735
I just want to help you guys however I can. But just to let you know,

00:40:20.795 --> 00:40:21.795
I was at home the entire evening.

00:40:22.035 --> 00:40:25.395
And the officer says, hey, we have a ring camera footage from your neighbor.

00:40:25.555 --> 00:40:29.395
And it shows you leaving through your back door roughly around 1042 PM.

00:40:29.795 --> 00:40:31.335
And without even missing a beat.

00:40:32.055 --> 00:40:34.915
The person immediately went to, oh, all right. I thought I mentioned that.

00:40:35.055 --> 00:40:39.055
I had to check something that was in the garage. No long pause, no recalibration.

00:40:39.315 --> 00:40:42.815
The brain updated the narrative to incorporate the new information flawlessly,

00:40:43.095 --> 00:40:47.555
seamlessly, even including a little bit of a jab that the officer probably didn't

00:40:47.555 --> 00:40:48.975
even hear what he had said earlier.

00:40:49.175 --> 00:40:52.195
So I'm kind of watching you, officer. You're not really paying a lot of attention

00:40:52.195 --> 00:40:54.775
to what I'm saying, aka not saying.

00:40:55.195 --> 00:40:58.855
Then the officer said, I'm just curious why you didn't go through the door inside

00:40:58.855 --> 00:41:00.495
your house that lead to the garage.

00:41:00.735 --> 00:41:03.115
And it's funny as I'm watching this, I'm even thinking, well,

00:41:03.215 --> 00:41:04.335
maybe he just wanted to go out the back.

00:41:04.835 --> 00:41:07.815
But then the guy immediately said, well, the lock on that door is jammed.

00:41:08.455 --> 00:41:13.715
And it was a seasoned interrogator. So, then he said, when we were inside your

00:41:13.715 --> 00:41:16.935
home and we were checking the place out, that door worked fine.

00:41:17.435 --> 00:41:20.835
And the guy just said, oh, yeah, actually probably my son fixed it recently.

00:41:21.195 --> 00:41:24.195
So, then the officer just said, oh, it's okay. So, if we ask your son, he'll confirm that.

00:41:24.375 --> 00:41:27.175
And the guy just responded right back in real time, my son

00:41:27.175 --> 00:41:30.055
has the worst memory and then they had

00:41:30.055 --> 00:41:33.135
done their research before they called this guy in and

00:41:33.135 --> 00:41:36.295
they just said you know we show that he's about to be is

00:41:36.295 --> 00:41:39.655
it valedictorian or salutatorian which one's the top one and then the guy even

00:41:39.655 --> 00:41:43.535
jumps in oh it's yeah he's about to be valedictorian so then the cop said you

00:41:43.535 --> 00:41:46.475
know i'm surprised then with that kind of intellect that his memory is that

00:41:46.475 --> 00:41:49.675
unreliable and then the guy just said oh and i didn't mean his memory is bad

00:41:49.675 --> 00:41:53.735
i just mean he may not remember fixing the door because he is he's an amazing

00:41:53.735 --> 00:41:56.255
guy and he fixes so many things around the house.

00:41:57.072 --> 00:41:59.792
Every time there's a crack, his mind patched it.

00:42:00.072 --> 00:42:03.992
Every piece of contradictory evidence gets absorbed into a slightly revised narrative.

00:42:04.252 --> 00:42:08.352
From the outside, it looks crazy. It looks superhuman.

00:42:08.592 --> 00:42:12.712
But through the lens of confabulation, it is a masterclass and it makes sense.

00:42:12.852 --> 00:42:16.212
If the internal story is, I am not the kind of person that would take out my

00:42:16.212 --> 00:42:20.672
wife, then any evidence suggesting otherwise, it is too much psychological tension.

00:42:20.852 --> 00:42:25.492
And his brain has two options. let that evidence collapse his entire identity

00:42:25.492 --> 00:42:28.072
or continually adjust the story to preserve it.

00:42:28.172 --> 00:42:30.672
And it is like a workout for him.

00:42:30.832 --> 00:42:33.552
For somebody who can't tolerate shame or the loss of control,

00:42:33.752 --> 00:42:36.512
his brain is choosing preservation every single time.

00:42:36.612 --> 00:42:40.612
And what's compelling about skilled interrogation is that the interrogator isn't

00:42:40.612 --> 00:42:44.512
just gathering the facts, they are introducing constant friction and tension

00:42:44.512 --> 00:42:46.992
and presenting evidence that forces the story to keep adjusting.

00:42:47.192 --> 00:42:52.032
And with every adjustment, it's like the inconsistencies add up and multiply and multiply.

00:42:52.312 --> 00:42:55.592
Even video evidence doesn't always stop a seasoned confabulator.

00:42:55.692 --> 00:42:58.572
They reinterpreted it. That's not what it looks like. That's out of context.

00:42:58.732 --> 00:43:02.672
Or then the narrative morphs and changes, not because they're calmly masterminding

00:43:02.672 --> 00:43:05.512
a deception, but because their nervous system is defending against the collapse

00:43:05.512 --> 00:43:07.032
and it can do it all day long.

00:43:07.312 --> 00:43:12.592
And when identity is under threat, the story will continue to bend before their sense of self breaks.

00:43:13.313 --> 00:43:17.013
If you want to see this mechanism also on full display, you don't even need

00:43:17.013 --> 00:43:20.253
interrogation rooms or faith crisis or faith journey. Turn on the news.

00:43:20.773 --> 00:43:25.133
Imagine a politician who can never be wrong. And I am saying insert any and

00:43:25.133 --> 00:43:26.693
all politician joke here.

00:43:27.133 --> 00:43:30.453
They may make a bold claim. Let's just say for the sake of an example,

00:43:30.653 --> 00:43:33.913
the price of eggs is at an all time low. Now the data contradicts it.

00:43:34.193 --> 00:43:37.693
And then journalist presents the numbers. Now a psychologically flexible response

00:43:37.693 --> 00:43:40.793
would sound like, you know, I realize there are actually more factors in play

00:43:40.793 --> 00:43:45.713
than I anticipated. that would be a mature response because it tolerates correction.

00:43:45.733 --> 00:43:49.533
It allows new information to potentially update old beliefs.

00:43:49.733 --> 00:43:53.933
But for somebody whose identity is fused with being right, whose nervous system

00:43:53.933 --> 00:43:58.373
equates admitting any kind of fault with weakness, that response is impossible.

00:43:58.753 --> 00:44:01.853
Admitting error doesn't feel like growth. It will feel like death.

00:44:01.973 --> 00:44:06.873
So a reflex kicks in. That is fake data. You're wrong. The system's rigged.

00:44:07.193 --> 00:44:10.113
The journalist becomes incompetent. the opposition becomes corrupt.

00:44:10.393 --> 00:44:13.133
Suddenly, we're not talking about eggs, we're talking about dominance and we're

00:44:13.133 --> 00:44:14.113
talking about ego survival.

00:44:14.573 --> 00:44:18.013
Emotional maturity is not about always being right. It's about being able to

00:44:18.013 --> 00:44:23.153
survive a challenge or it's being able to admit that I may be wrong.

00:44:24.061 --> 00:44:28.261
And personal attacks are the fastest way to alleviate any kind of internal discomfort.

00:44:28.481 --> 00:44:31.501
If you try to discredit the source, you don't even have to sit with attention.

00:44:31.821 --> 00:44:36.661
And over time, that person surrounds themselves with people who validate instead of challenge.

00:44:36.961 --> 00:44:41.761
Because psychologically safe environments are created by getting rid of all friction, all tension.

00:44:41.981 --> 00:44:45.621
So in other words, if nobody around you pushes back, you don't even have to feel uncomfortable.

00:44:45.941 --> 00:44:49.121
And then loyalty becomes more valuable than honesty.

00:44:49.121 --> 00:44:54.621
And then the followers of this politician, for example, they feel that same

00:44:54.621 --> 00:44:58.621
internal tug of war because if they publicly supported this person or defended

00:44:58.621 --> 00:45:00.381
them or tied their own identity to them,

00:45:00.921 --> 00:45:04.561
then admitting that the leader might be wrong means admitting they may have

00:45:04.561 --> 00:45:07.221
been wrong as well. And that can feel humiliating.

00:45:07.381 --> 00:45:10.281
So instead of sitting with that discomfort, it's easier to find a reason why

00:45:10.281 --> 00:45:11.821
the other side is the problem.

00:45:12.161 --> 00:45:16.161
So their own confabulation engine fires up and now they will reinterpret data

00:45:16.161 --> 00:45:20.001
and dismiss miss the sources and rationalize the behavior because apparently

00:45:20.001 --> 00:45:23.521
it's psychologically cheaper to double down than to self-confront.

00:45:24.161 --> 00:45:27.141
Imagine somebody who has always believed that their leader is honest and then

00:45:27.141 --> 00:45:31.301
recording surfaces that clearly contradict something said or a lot of things that were said.

00:45:31.801 --> 00:45:35.221
Instead of simply saying, oh, wow, that does not line up.

00:45:35.341 --> 00:45:38.121
Now they have to make sense of it. So they say, well, that must have been out

00:45:38.121 --> 00:45:41.481
of context or you don't really understand that that's what that person meant.

00:45:41.721 --> 00:45:45.221
Or imagine somebody has defended a company for years, decades.

00:45:45.461 --> 00:45:47.741
They've told all their friends to invest and put their own money in it.

00:45:48.001 --> 00:45:51.481
And then the financials come out and it's a mess or there's a Ponzi scheme.

00:45:51.621 --> 00:45:54.281
And instead of saying, oh man, I think I got this one wrong.

00:45:54.421 --> 00:45:57.061
They have to make sense of it. So they say, well, the media is obviously trying

00:45:57.061 --> 00:45:59.321
to tank the stock or this is a hit job.

00:45:59.681 --> 00:46:02.841
Or imagine somebody who's built their whole social circle around a cause and

00:46:02.841 --> 00:46:06.941
incredible evidence comes out that the person leading that cause is not who

00:46:06.941 --> 00:46:08.801
they say they are and they've done real harm.

00:46:09.241 --> 00:46:12.601
So instead of saying, oh, that stinks, that is so disappointing,

00:46:13.261 --> 00:46:15.801
I did not even know, I got duped, I got fooled.

00:46:16.041 --> 00:46:18.661
Now they have to make sense of it. So they'll say, well, I'm sure this is what

00:46:18.661 --> 00:46:19.741
the opposition wants you to believe.

00:46:20.758 --> 00:46:23.998
But here's the fascinating thing. I've worked with so many people who have done

00:46:23.998 --> 00:46:25.398
the brave thing instead.

00:46:25.638 --> 00:46:29.318
They've reached a point where they said, maybe I don't actually have things

00:46:29.318 --> 00:46:30.558
as figured out as I thought.

00:46:30.958 --> 00:46:33.518
And they allow themselves to question their own assumptions,

00:46:33.518 --> 00:46:36.358
not just about a politician, but about their own emotional patterns and their

00:46:36.358 --> 00:46:37.958
belief systems and their blind spots.

00:46:38.418 --> 00:46:42.358
And the world didn't end. There's a strange strength that comes from saying,

00:46:42.618 --> 00:46:44.438
yeah, actually, I don't know, or I got that wrong.

00:46:44.798 --> 00:46:47.918
Because there's a steadiness that can develop when you can tolerate uncertainty

00:46:47.918 --> 00:46:50.198
without immediately filling it in with a story.

00:46:50.758 --> 00:46:54.498
When you operate from a place of genuine curiosity instead of defensiveness,

00:46:54.778 --> 00:46:59.038
all the scary kind of shadowy things that you may be afraid of,

00:46:59.498 --> 00:47:00.758
it turns out they're not so terrifying.

00:47:01.138 --> 00:47:04.298
When you bring them into the light, when you examine them, when you then can

00:47:04.298 --> 00:47:05.898
integrate them into who you are.

00:47:06.218 --> 00:47:09.598
And I think this is a really good place to talk about something that I think will tie this together.

00:47:09.598 --> 00:47:14.418
And it's the difference between what I call a healthy ego and then the unhealthy

00:47:14.418 --> 00:47:16.258
ego or the false sense of self.

00:47:16.258 --> 00:47:20.998
A healthy ego is a grounded sense of who you are and is built on the real things

00:47:20.998 --> 00:47:23.798
that you've actually done, the challenges that you actually work through,

00:47:23.898 --> 00:47:27.138
the lessons you actually learned the hard way by putting in work.

00:47:27.698 --> 00:47:31.878
And because it's built on real things that you've done, it can take a hit.

00:47:32.238 --> 00:47:35.618
If somebody disagrees with you, no problem. If you made a mistake,

00:47:35.758 --> 00:47:37.178
it stings, but you can sit with it.

00:47:37.378 --> 00:47:40.898
You don't need everybody in the room to validate you and believe that you are

00:47:40.898 --> 00:47:43.778
special or right because your sense of self isn't hanging by a thread.

00:47:43.778 --> 00:47:47.198
A healthy ego says, I'm not perfect, but I'm starting to learn who I am.

00:47:47.318 --> 00:47:50.638
And part of that is I know the things that I know because I've actually looked

00:47:50.638 --> 00:47:54.238
into them and researched them and I've earned that.

00:47:54.558 --> 00:47:58.018
And that comes with, I don't know the things that I don't know.

00:47:58.098 --> 00:48:00.578
And it's okay for me to say that because then the more that I say,

00:48:00.578 --> 00:48:05.238
this is something I know, people can start to trust that because I'm going to

00:48:05.238 --> 00:48:08.338
admit if there's something that I don't know and things can change.

00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:13.260
In unhealthy ego, the false self looks like confidence, but it's hollow.

00:48:13.540 --> 00:48:16.380
It's like a house with a very beautiful front door, nothing behind it.

00:48:16.560 --> 00:48:19.800
The person acts sure of themselves, maybe even acts superior,

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:21.620
but underneath it is a mountain of self-doubt.

00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:24.720
And the key difference is this. It's not built on anything real.

00:48:24.860 --> 00:48:27.540
It's not built on genuine growth or hard-won self-awareness.

00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:31.800
There isn't consistency there. It's built on the appearance of being special

00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.040
and being right above being criticized.

00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.980
And that's why it is fragile. When you challenge somebody with a healthy ego,

00:48:38.220 --> 00:48:42.520
they can say, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way, or I'll have to get back

00:48:42.520 --> 00:48:45.800
to you on that, or wow, I've been given the data that says this,

00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.400
but I'll take a look at that.

00:48:47.640 --> 00:48:50.240
But when you challenge somebody operating from a false self,

00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:54.820
even a small disagreement can feel like this existential threat because there's

00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:56.380
nothing underneath holding them up.

00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.640
So they lash out, they belittle, they mock, they make fun of,

00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:04.680
they attack the source, They do whatever it takes to keep their facade standing,

00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:07.540
because if it falls, they don't know who they are without it.

00:49:07.820 --> 00:49:11.700
Think of it like an armor that's just on for show. It looks strong on the outside,

00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:14.100
but it's not actually protecting anything. It's hiding something.

00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:17.060
And the tragedy is, as long as somebody is wearing that armor,

00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:20.240
they can never really build up the real thing that they need underneath it.

00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:23.820
They can't develop genuine self-respect, because genuine self-respect requires

00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:27.100
being honest about who you are and admitting things that you don't know.

00:49:27.340 --> 00:49:29.160
And it's not that scary. Yeah.

00:49:29.643 --> 00:49:33.583
Honesty is the one thing that the false self can't afford. So when we're talking

00:49:33.583 --> 00:49:37.183
about confabulation, when we're talking about why someone rewrites history,

00:49:37.323 --> 00:49:40.783
why the story keeps changing, why they look convinced of a version of events

00:49:40.783 --> 00:49:44.083
that you know did not happen, this is often what's underneath.

00:49:44.243 --> 00:49:46.843
It's not a healthy ego navigating a disagreement.

00:49:47.043 --> 00:49:52.403
It's a false sense of self fighting for its life and it's willing to say and do anything to be right.

00:49:53.123 --> 00:49:56.043
Emotional immaturity looks like a little kid in adult clothes.

00:49:56.463 --> 00:50:00.703
Insulting, posturing, scanning for loyalty, labeling people as either with us or against us.

00:50:00.803 --> 00:50:05.963
It's rigid, it's binary, and it can't tolerate any gray area. But life is not binary.

00:50:06.243 --> 00:50:11.423
And the capacity to sit in complexity without falling apart and without needing

00:50:11.423 --> 00:50:15.983
things to be absolutely certain and without turning to aggression, that's growth.

00:50:16.363 --> 00:50:19.903
That's differentiation. That's the ability to hold onto yourself while trying

00:50:19.903 --> 00:50:22.563
to stay connected to others. It's not a us or them.

00:50:22.843 --> 00:50:27.263
It's let's figure this out. I'm going to learn more through a relationship than

00:50:27.263 --> 00:50:31.263
just finding my little echo chamber of people that will just tell me I'm right the whole time.

00:50:31.703 --> 00:50:35.243
When you stop needing to win every argument, when you stop needing reality to

00:50:35.243 --> 00:50:38.183
bend around your identity, you actually become stronger.

00:50:38.523 --> 00:50:42.303
You're no longer trapped defending some fragile narrative. You're free to learn.

00:50:42.463 --> 00:50:47.703
And that freedom is something that no confabulated story can ever provide.

00:50:48.143 --> 00:50:50.763
Okay, before we wrap up, I want to shift gears, be super transparent.

00:50:50.763 --> 00:50:52.863
I'm about to give you a sales pitch.

00:50:53.423 --> 00:50:56.183
And I continually go back and forth on, do I include it with this audience?

00:50:56.203 --> 00:50:59.163
Because I know that so many people that are listening aren't in a,

00:50:59.303 --> 00:51:00.823
hey, let's just improve our communication mode.

00:51:00.983 --> 00:51:03.983
You're trying to figure out if you're, I'm losing my mind mode.

00:51:04.636 --> 00:51:07.956
I go back to if you ever listen to both podcasts, Waking Up to Narcissim and

00:51:07.956 --> 00:51:10.516
The Virtual Couch, it does serve different audiences.

00:51:10.836 --> 00:51:14.436
The Virtual Couch is a lot of we've grown apart, we're stuck in the same argument,

00:51:14.516 --> 00:51:18.296
and those are painful, but they're often rooted in two people who want to try

00:51:18.296 --> 00:51:19.236
to figure things out together.

00:51:19.576 --> 00:51:22.956
And a lot of the emails I get from the Waking Up to Narcissim audience are people

00:51:22.956 --> 00:51:25.856
who feel isolated, who've been told so many times that they're too sensitive,

00:51:25.856 --> 00:51:30.356
or like we're talking about today, that their memory is not real.

00:51:30.796 --> 00:51:33.136
People whose nervous systems don't feel safe around their partner,

00:51:33.296 --> 00:51:35.056
even when nothing obvious is happening.

00:51:35.316 --> 00:51:38.196
That's a very different starting point. And I want to honor that.

00:51:38.296 --> 00:51:42.936
As I pitch my magnetic marriage reboot, I want you to know I am not selling

00:51:42.936 --> 00:51:44.296
this as a cure to narcissism.

00:51:44.396 --> 00:51:46.676
There's no communication trick that forces somebody into empathy.

00:51:46.816 --> 00:51:51.736
There is no framework that manufactures accountability and somebody who refuses to be accountable.

00:51:52.136 --> 00:51:55.096
And the last thing I ever want to do is provide somebody with false hope that

00:51:55.096 --> 00:51:57.616
the right words and the right order will fix everything.

00:51:57.916 --> 00:52:03.436
But I will confidently say that I believe in frameworks, frameworks as muses,

00:52:03.436 --> 00:52:04.836
as things to interact with.

00:52:04.976 --> 00:52:09.556
I think we need something structured to be able to see ourselves more clearly.

00:52:09.816 --> 00:52:13.896
A mirror, a lens, a way to step outside the chaos and say, okay, what is happening here?

00:52:14.096 --> 00:52:17.176
So in my magnetic marriage course, I cover everything from why we picked our

00:52:17.176 --> 00:52:20.756
partners in the first place to the anxious avoidant loop, losing strategies,

00:52:20.996 --> 00:52:24.976
the things we do that feel protective, but actually become more, they fuel the fire.

00:52:25.156 --> 00:52:29.076
I talk a lot about David Schnarch's four points of balance and differentiation.

00:52:29.416 --> 00:52:32.676
And we spend a lot of time with my four pillars of a connected conversation and

00:52:32.676 --> 00:52:35.616
the pillars are what are very relevant for this audience

00:52:35.616 --> 00:52:39.756
because even when both partners aren't doing the work the four pillars give

00:52:39.756 --> 00:52:43.796
you something incredibly stabilizing or a home base to operate from a first

00:52:43.796 --> 00:52:47.056
pillar of assuming good intentions or for the waking up the narcissism crowd

00:52:47.056 --> 00:52:50.596
or there's a reason why somebody does or says the things they do it's hard to

00:52:50.596 --> 00:52:52.856
assume good intentions when somebody's telling you to go.

00:52:53.680 --> 00:52:58.060
Do something to yourself. But if I look at that, or there's a reason why that

00:52:58.060 --> 00:53:01.540
person communicates that way, and it's because that's how they feel that they

00:53:01.540 --> 00:53:05.680
need to show up to communicate, then I'm potentially still in the conversation.

00:53:05.860 --> 00:53:08.540
And pillar two asks you not to immediately tell the other person you disagree

00:53:08.540 --> 00:53:13.440
or that they're wrong, even if you absolutely do disagree and think they're wrong.

00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:17.120
And it's not pretending, but it's just not jumping straight to a defense.

00:53:17.420 --> 00:53:20.760
When you resist that urge and then move into pillar three, questions before

00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:22.880
comments, sometimes something fascinating happens.

00:53:23.080 --> 00:53:26.960
If the other person is just emotionally immature, they maybe start to lean in

00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:30.460
and they clarify and you realize there's some depth underneath what they want

00:53:30.460 --> 00:53:32.400
to say. They're just afraid to say it. They might soften.

00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:36.700
If they're lying, maybe the lie unravels under gentle, consistent curiosity.

00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:41.380
If they're gaslighting, the manipulation becomes pretty clear because you're not escalating.

00:53:41.540 --> 00:53:45.880
You start to see that, oh, they now will do some sort of narcissistic exit and

00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:47.560
you find out that you're still okay.

00:53:48.080 --> 00:53:50.280
And if they're confabulating, you're going to watch it in real time.

00:53:50.740 --> 00:53:54.440
Story shifts, details morph, new explanations appear because you're not attacking,

00:53:54.640 --> 00:53:56.840
but you're asking genuinely thoughtful questions.

00:53:57.120 --> 00:54:01.180
The pattern becomes visible. So using the pillars won't fix narcissism and it

00:54:01.180 --> 00:54:04.260
won't create empathy where none exists, but it will start to expose emotional

00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:06.460
immaturity, gaslighting and confabulation.

00:54:06.740 --> 00:54:11.440
And it will hopefully help you find your sanity inside conversations that used

00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:13.020
to spin you out into the weeds.

00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:16.740
So the next round isn't open yet, but the wait list is. So if you're curious,

00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.720
go to TonyOverbay.com slash Magnetic.

00:54:19.355 --> 00:54:22.935
And whether you ever take the course or not, I hope that what you take from

00:54:22.935 --> 00:54:27.855
today is clarity is power and structure does create stability and you deserve

00:54:27.855 --> 00:54:31.795
to feel sane, especially in your own relationship. So what have we learned today?

00:54:32.175 --> 00:54:34.975
Today, we talked about memory as a double agent. We walked through lying,

00:54:35.115 --> 00:54:36.615
gaslighting, confabulation. Oh my.

00:54:37.155 --> 00:54:40.435
We've explored interrogations and faith crisis and politics and identity.

00:54:40.655 --> 00:54:43.255
And hopefully if there's one thread running through all of it, it is this.

00:54:43.515 --> 00:54:47.735
The human brain will work very, very hard to protect the self from collapse.

00:54:48.015 --> 00:54:51.515
Memory is not perfect. It's not a perfect recording device. It's fallible.

00:54:51.675 --> 00:54:55.875
It is a meaning-making device, and it is consistently organizing and filtering

00:54:55.875 --> 00:54:58.795
and shaping your experiences to help you survive.

00:54:58.995 --> 00:55:01.255
And most of the time, that works beautifully.

00:55:01.575 --> 00:55:05.635
But when identity feels threatened, when shame can start to feel annihilating,

00:55:05.995 --> 00:55:10.135
when belonging feels at risk, when being wrong can feel like death,

00:55:10.515 --> 00:55:13.395
the brain shifts from an interrogation mode to protection.

00:55:14.135 --> 00:55:18.095
It edits, it fills in gaps, and it rewrites timelines and narratives and stories,

00:55:18.155 --> 00:55:21.055
and it constructs these narratives that will preserve safety.

00:55:21.375 --> 00:55:25.055
That's confabulation. And it's not necessarily even malicious.

00:55:25.315 --> 00:55:31.075
It's not calculated, but it can be profoundly destabilizing for the person on the receiving end.

00:55:31.155 --> 00:55:34.515
Because when somebody is confabulating, you're not arguing with strategy,

00:55:34.515 --> 00:55:37.595
you're arguing directly with their survival system.

00:55:38.035 --> 00:55:40.775
So hopefully here's the takeaways that you can carry with you.

00:55:40.955 --> 00:55:44.675
Your implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based on the slow residue

00:55:44.675 --> 00:55:46.695
of your lived experience, and it matters.

00:55:47.095 --> 00:55:50.335
Your nervous system remembers what your conscious mind may question.

00:55:50.615 --> 00:55:56.035
So if you consistently leave conversations feeling small or confused or disoriented, that is data.

00:55:56.315 --> 00:55:59.115
That's your body trying to hand you reliable intelligence.

00:55:59.555 --> 00:56:02.815
Now, you may still not know what to do with it, but we got to start from somewhere.

00:56:03.155 --> 00:56:06.315
And understanding confabulation doesn't mean you excuse the harm.

00:56:06.415 --> 00:56:10.535
It means recognizing that arguing facts alone is not going to resolve a dynamic

00:56:10.535 --> 00:56:14.955
that's rooted in this defense of their identity. You can't out evidence somebody

00:56:14.955 --> 00:56:18.555
whose brain is rewriting evidence on the fly to stay intact.

00:56:19.472 --> 00:56:23.952
Emotional maturity is not about never being wrong. It's about tolerating the

00:56:23.952 --> 00:56:29.072
potential that I may not have shown up in a way that I wanted to without collapsing.

00:56:29.172 --> 00:56:31.092
It's the ability to say, I hurt you.

00:56:31.452 --> 00:56:35.132
That's not a weakness. It's actually strength and it's differentiation and it's

00:56:35.132 --> 00:56:36.652
starting to operate from a place of integrity.

00:56:37.352 --> 00:56:41.312
Growth actually requires courage, whether it's a parent facing their child's

00:56:41.312 --> 00:56:45.252
pain or somebody questioning a lifelong belief or somebody realizing that they've

00:56:45.252 --> 00:56:48.832
defended what now may feel like the indefensible.

00:56:49.152 --> 00:56:56.032
The brave move is to self-confront and to admit and acknowledge and then deal with.

00:56:56.432 --> 00:57:00.732
And I think it's safe to say any person I've worked with who has chosen that

00:57:00.732 --> 00:57:03.572
path, eventually discover something really surprising.

00:57:04.132 --> 00:57:07.152
They actually feel better about themselves.

00:57:07.412 --> 00:57:11.032
The relationship has a better chance to be truly intimate and connected,

00:57:11.032 --> 00:57:12.992
and the world doesn't stop spinning.

00:57:13.392 --> 00:57:16.572
Their identity doesn't dissolve. It actually expands. And finally,

00:57:16.752 --> 00:57:20.632
if you have been on the receiving end of confabulation, if you felt like your

00:57:20.632 --> 00:57:24.852
memory was being turned against you, just know here's another notch on your

00:57:24.852 --> 00:57:25.892
belt of you're not crazy,

00:57:26.472 --> 00:57:29.972
but you were probably navigating a system where the stability of the narrative

00:57:29.972 --> 00:57:33.252
mattered far more than the truth in the relationship.

00:57:33.592 --> 00:57:37.292
So your confusion makes perfect sense and your exhaustion makes sense and your

00:57:37.292 --> 00:57:38.972
longing for clarity makes sense.

00:57:39.312 --> 00:57:43.672
Waking up to narcissism, waking up to emotional immaturity, to confabulation,

00:57:43.672 --> 00:57:46.072
it isn't ever about winning an argument.

00:57:46.072 --> 00:57:49.472
It's about reclaiming your reality first and foremost and moving from the black

00:57:49.472 --> 00:57:53.792
and white thinking into more nuanced thinking, from defensiveness into curiosity

00:57:53.792 --> 00:57:58.272
and from this desperate need to protect your ego into a place of integrity.

00:57:58.592 --> 00:58:01.152
And when you start to make that shift, and when you allow yourself to say,

00:58:01.312 --> 00:58:03.932
I don't know everything, and it turns out that's okay.

00:58:04.798 --> 00:58:07.658
You actually stop living in as much of a survival state.

00:58:07.918 --> 00:58:13.838
You start letting truth shape you and you're going to listen to your gut even more.

00:58:14.038 --> 00:58:16.318
And it's going to tell you a lot of things that are going to be good to know.

00:58:16.758 --> 00:58:22.558
And truth, when faced with the courage, isn't nearly as terrifying as the yeah,

00:58:22.698 --> 00:58:25.898
buts or the fear or the shadows in our brain make us think.

00:58:26.498 --> 00:58:31.958
That's more like emotional maturity. That's growth. And that is what waking up really looks like.

00:58:32.138 --> 00:58:34.338
Thank you so much for joining me. If you have questions, thoughts,

00:58:34.378 --> 00:58:36.018
or anything that you'd like to send, please do.

00:58:36.558 --> 00:58:39.678
And send this to somebody that you think it might help. And I look forward to

00:58:39.678 --> 00:58:41.798
talking with you next week on Waking Up the Narcissime.