Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And a huge thanks to Riley Hope for her song, Not My Job.
Go find it wherever you listen to music. I am really grateful that people resonate with that song.
And it has become a bit of an anthem for people who are waking up to emotional
immaturity or narcissism.
That it's not their job to manage other people's emotions, to take care of them.
Before we get to today's show, which is one that has been a long time in the
making, I want to share with you what is literally going to be a sales pitch,
but it's one that I debated whether or not to share on Waking Up to Narcissism in particular.
I shared it recently on the latest episode on The Virtual Couch,
which was an episode talking about the conflict of duty versus desire in a relationship.
If you are not a Virtual Couch listener, that is a great one to go listen to.
If you do happen to listen to both podcasts, you may or may not know that they
tend to serve different audiences.
And I anticipated that when I started waking up to narcissism.
Now it's almost been five years ago and they play into different markets.
Waking up to narcissism has become quite a bit larger than the virtual couch,
which has always been my flagship podcast.
But the emails that I get from virtual couch listeners are often about individual
things, anxiety, depression, addiction, faith journey, faith crisis.
There is some stuff around emotional maturity and there's a lot of things from couples.
A lot of the emails I get that are sent to the virtual couch are couples are
saying things like we've grown apart or we can't communicate anymore.
And we're finding a really difficult time understanding why those are very real struggles.
I'm not saying that those are the easy ones. I mean, those are real and that's
what those people are going through.
But the emails I get from the waking up to narcissism audience are different.
They're typically from people who have felt like something is off,
really off. And it's people who felt isolated in their marriage.
People who have been told so many times that they're the problem. They're too sensitive.
They're remembering things wrong. And they've started to wonder if,
okay, am I the narcissist?
Which is one of the most frequent emails that I get. And I'm still maintaining
that if you are genuinely asking yourself, if you are the narcissist, you're not.
Because you're on a quest to figure out if you are or not. Now,
if you hear me say that, and then you are the narcissist and you just say, am I? Nope.
Okay, I can move on. That's a little different. I also get a lot of emails from
people who have chronic pain and whose bodies seem to keep the score and can't
find peace around their partner,
where your nervous system is constantly on alert, even when nothing obvious
is happening, when the person pulls into the driveway.
So my sales pitch is around an updated magnetic marriage course that I am about
to put on that will be held weekly and it will then become a standalone course or product.
I want to be really clear with this audience what the course is not.
It's not a cure for narcissism.
I am absolutely not going to sit here and tell you I have some secret formula
that will finally make your partner get it.
I know there are content creators out there that are saying that and making
a tremendous amount of money off of that.
And that is a topic for another day because it drives me crazy.
I think it does real damage to individuals and to relationships.
But here's what I do believe. I do believe in muses. I believe we need to interact
with something in order to understand ourselves better.
Whether that is another human being, whether it is a show that we watch,
whether it is a food that we eat, when you look at that as, oh,
I'm interacting with this thing and that is helping me understand myself better.
I think we need frameworks. We need a mirror, something that helps you see more
clearly what you're dealing with and who you are inside of it,
whatever that relationship is.
And if you're not sure about what to do about your relationship.
And if your partner is even somewhat open or willing, I do think that this course
could serve as that kind of news for you.
Because in my Magnetic Marriage course, I lay out everything I know about how
relationships work from now over 20 years working as a very,
very active couples therapist with over 1,500 couples under my belt.
I talk about how and why we picked our partners in the first place, why that matters now.
I walk through the anxious avoidant loop and how it keeps so many couples stuck
in the same painful perpetual dance. And I teach my four pillars of a connected conversation.
And that is a tried and true framework that gives you a home base to return to.
It helps you if you feel like your reality gets challenged. I cover losing strategies,
things we do in relationships that feel protective.
Kept us alive, maybe in childhood, but they keep us stuck as adults.
I explained why we end up in these circular arguments that don't ever seem to resolve.
And I spend a lot of time on David Schnarch's four points of balance.
It's a concept I've talked about a lot on waking up to narcissism.
It is from the world of differentiation that gives you a way to hold onto yourself
inside of a relationship without needing to attack or defend,
or sometimes even more importantly, to withdraw.
Now, will this course fix everything? Absolutely not. But it might help you
see your relationship more clearly.
It might give you language for things that you felt, but you couldn't name.
And it might help you figure out what you need, whether that's a path forward
together, or it might help give you a little bit more clarity if you need to
make a different kind of decision.
The next round is not open yet, but the wait list is. If you go to tonyoverbay.com
slash magnetic, go there if you want to learn more.
And then if you, if whatever you decide, I am glad you are here.
And even if that's something that you don't think you can pull the trigger on
now, it's something to think about.
Okay. Today's topic. Oh, and please go follow me on all the social media places
at virtual.couch on Instagram, a virtual couch on TikTok at substack.com slash
the virtual couch on substack and doing more live question and answers.
I want all your questions. I want your stories.
I've got a lot of people that have sent in poems, questions around narcissism,
and please keep sending those in. And even if you just want to share an experience
and that is therapeutic for you, read them.
I will read them all. But let's get to today's topic.
What are you supposed to do when people in your life stay friends with or remain
very close to the narcissistic or incredibly emotionally immature person in your life who hurt you?
You may have experienced abuse by a family member, and it could be physical,
emotionally, financially, spiritually.
There are all types of abuse, and you may not even want to call it abuse,
but it is definitely something that you don't feel good about or feel comfortable with.
But then there are friends and family members that you considered close,
people you thought that you really knew, or people that you thought really knew
you, either deny your experience, which can be incredibly frustrating,
or even rally around the person who harmed you.
Or at the very least, still stay really close to them. And that can seem really confusing.
And I think here's what hurts more at times than the narcissistic behaviors themselves.
It's the people that you expected to stand with you, stand beside you.
Not like they had to go get the pitchforks and let's go storm the village,
but you kind of wanted them to at least ask, do you have any pitchforks?
I mean, I'm just curious.
I think of this as a secondary betrayal and it can be profoundly destabilizing
because when you've been harmed,
there's a natural expectation that the people who you think know you will at
least offer a listening ear or belief or support or even protection.
And when that doesn't happen, your nervous system doesn't just register disappointment
and just think, oh, well, maybe next time.
It'll actually start to register danger. As you start to wake up to the emotional
immaturity or narcissistic relationships in your life, there is often a feeling
that, wait, if I am not the narcissist, all of a sudden it seems like everybody around me is.
And that's a natural part of the waking up process.
This is also where anger starts to show up. And I think it's really important to talk about anger.
Anger is so commonly misunderstood because most of the time we experience it
as a secondary emotion, meaning that it's covering up something more vulnerable underneath.
When my kids used to scare me, when they were little, if I yelled,
Hey, come on guys, knock it off anger.
That's a secondary emotion because the primary emotion is embarrassment that
this little tiny human could make me scream and darn near soil myself.
If somebody snaps in a meeting rather than admitting that they feel,
Oh my gosh, I'm underprepared. If they, well, what was I supposed to do?
Nobody told me that if that person becomes irritable, instead of acknowledging
that they feel rejected, those
are examples in those cases of anger as a protective layer. It's immature.
It's a secondary emotion, but anger can also be a primary emotion.
And that's typically when it's tied to the concept of injustice.
Right now, there's a lot of anger in the country, if you are in the United States,
and that anger is about injustice.
And when you see true injustice happening, gaslighting at a major level,
you will get angry. That's not a secondary emotion.
That one is a primary emotion. Allow that to be there. Now, what do you do with
it? That's a whole different story.
I think that so often we've learned that our emotions are scary or they aren't
welcome, but that one, my friends, I think that one's pretty justified.
Now, back to today's story. When somebody truly begins to understand the depth
of what they've experienced, though, in a relationship, when they start to really
wake up to the manipulation, the gaslighting, the erosion of their own reality,
then anger can be healthy.
It can be more of a grounding response. And it doesn't mean that you have to
diffuse your anger onto somebody else or take your anger out on somebody else.
But that is, listen to your body. It's trying to communicate something to you.
That anger isn't about losing control. It's your body recognizing something
here was not okay. And I have been, I've been trying to make it a me thing because
it's a me thing. I can fix it.
But what if I'm angry because this person that I trusted has betrayed me?
This person that I've gone to to say, am I okay? Has said, I don't think so.
And unfortunately, this is
often when other people shift focus away from the injustice and onto you.
And instead of trying to understand your experience, when you now come to them
and say, I realize I have been in a really bad marriage. I've been in a really
bad relationship. I've been coerced. I've been emotionally abused.
They zero in on often your anger.
They may tell you that you're being too irrational, too emotional, too bitter.
And suddenly the conversation moves away from what happened to you that you're
trying to share and toward managing your emotional response to it.
I want you to know your anger isn't the problem. It's information.
And narcissistic people are incredibly good at playing the victim.
The victim is a one-up position.
They're skilled at convincing others of their suffering. They often immediately
go to those around them in your circle and try to control the narrative.
Go to them and say, hat in hand, oh my gosh, I really blew it.
Or, hey, I think that my wife's being really crazy. I run into this often in
things like church communities, for example, where there might be an impending
divorce and someone that really looks the part, especially because they can
dress up and look nice in a suit. Maybe they've got a nice job.
But meanwhile, they've been emotionally abusive. They're withholding money from
their family, from their wife during the divorce.
They immediately go all or nothing, black or white, try to cut her off.
And they go and then tell everybody in their church community that they're the
victim and that they just don't know what's going on. But if you can really
take care of my wife, I mean, I don't know what she's going through because
I'm a good guy. You all know me.
They maintain this public mask that keeps them looking successful.
Now, if you are somebody who values integrity, accountability and repair,
oh, this starts to create confusion and some really deep cognitive dissonance.
And unfortunately, narcissistic family systems, narcissistic communities,
narcissistic religious institutions, they reward image over truth.
And they often reward performance over honesty.
Because healing is hard enough when you feel like you've been betrayed or when
your heart's broken, but it becomes exponentially harder in the face of injustice.
And unfortunately, there often has to be acceptance with the people that I'm working with.
Acceptance that that narcissistic person is going to do that.
They are going to rally their flying monkeys.
They're going to look for the Switzerland friends. That's what we're going to talk about today.
There has to be an acceptance because there is rarely, if ever,
closure in a narcissistic relationship.
You're not going to get a true heartfelt apology. They aren't going to take
genuine accountability.
They might make the right mouth sounds if they're cornered. Man,
yeah, you're right. I'm sorry.
But if you just dig in a little deeper, well, tell me what you're sorry about.
Oftentimes you get the blank stare. I get that in my office from time to time
where then the person says the right mouth sounds.
And then if I say, oh man, that sounds really powerful. Can you share with your
partner what you're now sorry about and how you come to this realization and
then sit back and watch as the person just looks over at me and says.
Hey, oh man, I said the words like what, what else am I supposed to do?
Because it isn't a genuine apology. They aren't taking genuine accountability.
At some point, the real grief isn't just about what happened.
It's about letting go of the fantasy that one day they will finally get it.
Would you like for them to get it? Absolutely. Will they?
It's not something to cling to. I'm afraid you're going to have to give up the
idea that you will someday be understood by the narcissist.
Waiting for that understanding, I think, often keeps people tethered to somebody
who's already shown you that they're unwilling or even unable.
It could be a capacity issue to really offer a genuine apology or acceptance
of their role in the relationship.
And I know that the pathologically kind people listening are saying,
but I'm more than willing to own up to the fact that I haven't been perfect either.
And that's your projection. Bless your sweetheart because that is such a good
trait in a healthy relationship.
Willing to say, hey, I know that I played a role in this too. Let's talk about it.
Now, other people will continue to make excuses for narcissistic behavior.
And you've heard every kind of excuse.
I don't think that that's really what they meant. Or, you know,
yeah, I know they get mad, but they're also nice too.
Or you just have to hear them out. I mean, I'm sure that there's two sides to every story.
Or, okay, I know that he wasn't always nice to you, but boy,
he sure helped me when I asked him some questions about whatever it is he does for work.
Or, and this one can be really hard, pulling on the heartstrings.
Yeah, but have you heard about their childhood?
Or the granddaddy of them all, you know, you just need to let it go.
These excuses are often framed as compassion.
Again, very many uses of the concept of the correct mouth sounds and tone and
even facial expressions can look like compassion when somebody says it.
But here's the key. Here's my big takeaway.
More often, they're a way for that person that has this opportunity to really
step in and be there for you.
That's a way that they are trying to avoid their discomfort.
If they don't excuse the immature narcissistic behavior, well,
then they're going to have to do some serious self-reflection.
And they might have to recognize that you're reaching out for connection to
be understood for some healthy validation and they're not actually given it
and they might not be able to.
It's far easier for that person to decide in an instant that you're the one
making too big a deal out of it. With that said, welcome to Switzerland, everybody.
And I'd like to introduce you to a group of friends, Switzerland friends, as a matter of fact.
And I was thinking about this. If you're literally someone's friend and you're
from Switzerland, I legitimately want to know if this concept tracks, but I also digress.
For the sake of this episode, Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
Switzerland friends are people who insist on staying neutral.
And they say things like, you know, I really don't want to take sides or there's
two sides to every story, or I just want to stay out of it and I want the dust to settle.
And on the surface, again, it sounds reasonable and mature and fair,
but in situations involving emotional harm or narcissistic behavior.
Neutrality isn't actually neutral.
Switzerland friends, I don't believe are actually standing in the middle,
they're standing a safe distance, protecting themselves from their discomfort.
When you share your experience and you watch them immediately zoom out,
minimize, or try to just balance the story.
And here's the key before trying to understand what they're really conveying
is, Hey, your pain, it's too uncomfortable for me to engage with,
or, well, that's not my experience.
And so if you have a different experience, then that means you think that yours
is right. And mine is wrong.
It's a form of emotional immaturity. And this is coming. if you're new to the
podcast, we're all emotionally immature.
Part of what I'm hoping to do is bring things out into the light from the shadow.
Something that you didn't know that you didn't know, perhaps my Switzerland
friend that might be listening to now, you know, and it's still uncomfortable
and it might not even be easy to do. Eventually you'll be able to do it more than you did before.
And over time you just become, this is who you are.
A switzerland friend isn't necessarily conveying fairness it's more emotional
avoidance because emotionally mature people they don't rush to judgment but
they also don't rush to distance,
they stay present long enough to understand switzerland friends skip that step
entirely and i am not saying that these are bad people at all they're usually
conflict averse or they're not comfortable with big emotions.
I've been able to talk to a number of people after the first time that I put
out a Switzerland friend episode.
The emails were so powerful because I had people reaching out saying,
I never even knew that that's what I was doing, but I sure was doing that.
I got to meet with a few people that wanted to really step into who they were
and not show up as Switzerland friends.
I found that many grew up in environments where conflict led to punishment or withdraw or chaos.
As kids, I think it's really important to recognize that they often learn,
if I don't choose, then I can't be wrong.
And as adults, that becomes, if I stay neutral, I stay safe.
When you bring them a story involving harm or any kind of moral tension,
their nervous system registers threat.
They see it coming when you are coming to them with that look of,
oh my gosh, I think I figured something out and it's scary and I want to share
this with you, their nervous system feels that.
It's like, uh-oh, this is familiar. This is what my mom and dad did.
And I know I just need to, well, you know, yeah, I can see both sides of the story.
And it's not because you're wrong, but it's because emotional intensity feels dangerous.
Rather than sitting with that discomfort, they default to this false sense of balance.
And I think here's a real important part. To the hopefully becoming aware Switzerland
friend, you actually don't have to take sides to take somebody seriously.
Emotional maturity means being willing to understand before neutralizing.
And Switzerland friends reverse that order. They quickly neutralize and then
feign understanding or feign curiosity.
And this is also why they often end up protecting narcissistic people without
even meaning to, without intending to.
Narcissistic individuals, emotionally immature individuals present very well
publicly because it's about the optics.
They can be charming in low stakes relationships and they can reserve their
worst behavior for those that are the closest to them.
And that emotional whiplash is one of the biggest problems.
And they're often quick to go try to get ahead of the narrative because typically
the pathologically kind person doesn't want to bother somebody.
I don't want them to think a certain thing. I think one of the key emotionally
immature traits of the pathologically kind, and this is with such a bless your
heart, is the managing other people's emotions.
I don't want this person to think that I'm being a bother. I don't want this
person to think that, I don't want them to be uncomfortable.
I'm managing their emotions. I'm not even giving them a chance to have their
own emotional experience.
But I also think it's fair to say, while that might be projection,
I think it's fair to own that projection because most likely it goes back to
when you have tried to express yourself to certain people around you.
And if they have played the role of Switzerland friend, then your own central
nervous system, your own body keeps the score is telling you, this doesn't feel safe.
Switzerland friends are often witnessing the performance, not the reality.
When your experience, what you're trying to share with them doesn't match theirs,
they are really good at quickly resolving that discomfort by doubting you instead
of questioning their own assumptions.
Everything is an opportunity to self-confront and grow. I want that to just
be this mantra for everyone that when someone comes to me and says,
man, I'm now realizing this certain thing happened in my relationship.
If I immediately want to tell that person it's not a big deal or just look at it this way.
Might feel like I'm giving them some sage wisdom, but that's me either wanting
validation. If I can say this thing and change their life, then it will really dig me.
Or it's me getting rid of my discomfort. Ah, maybe there's two sides of the
story, but that quiet dismissal can hurt just as much as rejection can.
And yet, hopefully, as you're hearing these examples, you can start to see there's
some clarity because narcissistic relationships do start to act like a filter.
They begin to reveal who has the capacity to tolerate discomfort who has the
capacity to hold integrity over convenience and stay emotionally present even when things get messy,
not just trying to sound cliched but i think true friends don't need to hate
the person who hurt you they don't even necessarily need to cut anybody off
they don't need to agree with every detail of your story but what they need
to do is start from a place of saying i may not fully understand man,
but I'm going to believe you.
This is your experience. If I say I'm not buying it, that is such a me issue
because I don't even know what your experience is.
And if I care about you, I do want to know how this has impacted you.
And yes, it might make me uncomfortable and I need to have the courage and the
vulnerability to say, I don't even know what to say.
I am so sorry that you have gone through this and you have felt alone or felt
like you couldn't turn to me.
How can I show up for you? Because often the answer is going to be,
I don't know, I think you're doing it right now.
Switzerland friends, though, they're going to show you their limits.
And it's not through cruelty, but it's through avoidance.
And then once you see that pretty clear, then the work shifts.
Instead of asking, why won't they see it?
Then we start working on a more grounded question. What does their response
tell me about who they're able to be for me?
And that's okay. That's done with acceptance.
Okay. It is story time. This is, of course, based on real people, real events.
We will call these people Ned, Steve, and Fran. And this is where I wish I had
some waking up the narcissism players, but I will not do voices.
Let's imagine somebody, we'll call him Ned the Narcissist, not because alliteration
is a diagnostic tool, but because I think it's memorable and it's easy.
You've known Ned for a long time, long enough to notice a pattern you couldn't
quite name at first. No matter what's happening, Ned always ends up in the one-up position.
You get a new car with lane change warnings. You're excited about it.
Ned looks at it for about three seconds and said, oh yeah, read a bunch of studies
about those and failing, driving right into pylons. People die because they rely on these too much.
That's why I don't have that feature. That's why I still drive this old car.
No study cited, no pause even, just authority, confidence, and the quiet implication
that your excitement was naive and ridiculous.
Then there's work. Ned complains about a coworker named Karen.
Now, according to Ned, Karen doesn't pull her weight.
Ned does everything. And somehow Karen still gets all the credit.
One day you respond the way most emotionally attuned people do.
Man, that sounds really hard.
Now, Ned pivots. What's hard about it? It's actually easy for me because I'm really good at what I do.
Now, months later, Ned complains about Karen again. Again, this time you're
tired and you don't say much.
And then Ned snaps. Well, you must not understand how difficult it is to work
with somebody like Karen.
So which is it, Ned? Unbearably hard or effortless? The answer,
whatever keeps Ned on top in that moment.
Over time, you realize something really important. It doesn't matter what you
say. There is no correct response.
Ned will always adjust the narrative so he wins. So you start to disengage.
You create a little emotional distance. Not dramatically, just quietly,
internally, you step back.
And then here's where it gets complicated because Ned is not the only person in your life.
You're also friends with Steve. Steve is your Switzerland friend.
Steve's genuinely nice. He's pretty easygoing.
Steve really hates conflict. One day he notices that you seem off and he says,
hey, is everything okay?
And in a very rare moment of vulnerability, you say, honestly,
Ned can make me feel really bad about myself sometimes.
And I'm trying to figure out how to deal with that. Have you ever felt that way around him?
Steve hands, they go up almost reflexively. Whoa, whoa, don't drag me into this.
Nobody's perfect. There are two sides to every story.
And the moment's over. You didn't ask Steve to take sides. You didn't ask him
to confront Ned. You asked, could he recognize your experience?
But Steve is already bracing for impact. He's backing away, protecting himself from discomfort.
Let's meet your other friend, Fran. Fran the Flying Monkey. Later that day,
Fran's over at your place. You and Fran have bonded before over some shared
eye roll moments with Ned.
You've both felt the tension, the subtle jabs. When Fran says,
hey, what's going on? You're honest.
And you say, Ned can be really exhausting. He makes me feel small and I'm really
trying to work on setting boundaries. Fran nods.
She gets it. You feel relief. Finally, somebody sees it. You feel so heard.
That evening, your phone buzzes. It's a text from Ned the narcissist.
Ned's furious. He's hurt. He cannot believe that you would say such cruel things about him to Fran.
And suddenly, you're not just managing Ned's behavior anymore.
You're defending your reality.
There's a key distinction here. This is where two very different roles show
up around narcissistic and emotionally immature people. And if you don't understand
the difference, this part can really mess with your head.
A Switzerland friend insists on neutrality. They say things like,
I don't want to take sides. There are two sides. I just want to stay out of
it. But again, Switzerland friends aren't actually neutral.
They are protecting themselves from emotional discomfort. They don't stay present
long enough to understand your experience. They zoom out really fast.
They're not saying you're wrong.
Kind of. They're saying your pain makes me uncomfortable.
And then a flying monkey is different. Now, the term comes from the Wizard of Oz.
And if you just watched the Wicked movies, I even remember thinking,
wait, are they bad? Is she actually bad?
Again, topic for another day. The term comes from the Wizard of Oz,
the original, the winged creatures who do the wicked witch's bidding.
In this context, a flying monkey, somebody who actively defends,
enables, or carries information, that's the key, back to the narcissistic person.
Sometimes intentionally, sometimes without even realizing it.
Flying monkeys aren't necessarily narcissists themselves, but boy,
they love them. They hang around them.
They are yes men. If you are in the world of politics or celebrities,
they're going to have a lot of these flying monkeys around them.
Most are emotionally immature, approval seeking, deeply enmeshed into the system.
They don't have a true sense of self and they get their whole rush or charge
out of being around the narcissist.
Some are afraid of being the next target. Some confuse loyalty with integrity.
But the outcome is the same, that instead of protecting your vulnerability,
they actually deliver it back to the system that harmed you.
Now, one would even ask, why do these roles even exist? Because if you have
lived through something like that story, the Ned, Fran, and Steve story,
the part that messes with you most usually isn't Ned.
Although Ned has, but at some point you start to recognize Ned's Ned.
Ned's going to be Nedden.
It's typically more of that aftershock. It's a moment that you think,
wait, did that really just happen?
Did I even say something wrong? Why do I feel worse now before I even said something?
I thought I was sharing something with a friend.
That confusion isn't accidental. narcissistic systems don't
just run on the behavior of one person they run on roles and
these roles exist for a primary reason to regulate everybody's
discomfort not yours theirs switzerland friends and flying monkeys show up because
emotionally immature systems need to absorb and deflect or redirect emotional
pressure so the system doesn't have to change and there is one big shock absorber
that would be you my friend the system needs stability far more than it needs truth.
In emotionally mature relationships, truth actually strengthens connection.
It can be uncomfortable, but in emotional mature relationships,
you can hold the discomfort and truth. You can maintain object constancy.
You can be frustrated or even disagree with somebody and still like them.
In emotionally immature systems, truth threatens stability because there is
a truth. There is one right and everything else is wrong.
Ned doesn't need to be right all the time because he loves being right.
He needs to be right because being wrong means death and abandonment,
and it would require self-reflection and humility and repair,
and those things feel dangerous to him.
So the system adapts. If somebody like you starts pulling away and setting boundaries
and disengaging or questioning the dynamic, the system feels that as a threat.
And when a system feels threatened, it doesn't ask, hey, what do we need to learn here?
It asks, how do we make this discomfort stop?
It's almost like the narcissist needs these Switzerland friends and flying monkeys
around to then absorb and neutralize and balance the system.
What the Switzerland friends are really doing, they're not trying to hurt you.
They're trying to neutralize emotional intensity as fast as possible,
and they're good at it. When you tell Steve that Ned makes you feel bad about
yourself, Steve's nervous system lights up. Oh, I know what to do with this.
Not because he thinks you're wrong, but emotional tension feels unsafe.
He reaches for the fastest exit.
There are two sides. Nobody's perfect. I don't want to get involved.
That response isn't about fairness. It's an immediate sense of relief.
Steve doesn't have to sit with your pain. he doesn't have to examine his own
experiences with ned and he definitely doesn't have to tolerate any kind of
ambiguity he needs certainty right now switzerland friends confuse neutrality
with maturity but emotional maturity doesn't rush to balance.
It stays present long enough to try and understand. And growth comes from the
discomfort. I promise you that.
But when you're the only one that's sitting with the discomfort and self-reflecting,
the pressure can be intense and it can be enormous. And it's trying to get you
to cave and fall back into your familiar role.
What flying monkeys are really doing, they're not just avoiding discomfort,
they're redirecting it.
Fran didn't necessarily intend
to betray you, but when you shared your experience, she made a choice.
Often it's unconscious, but instead of holding onto your story with care,
she transferred it back to the person with the most emotional power in the system. Why?
Because in emotionally immature systems, narcissistic systems,
whether it's in a family, a religious institution, a work situation.
Closeness to power feels safer than closeness to truth, because if you lack
a true sense of self, you get your whole sense of self from external validation.
And if I can get it from the person in charge, from the leader above me, then I'm safe.
And then I don't have to take ownership or accountability of my own thoughts, feelings or emotions.
And then if things don't go right, I can say, well, I was just following this
person. So you don't have to know yourself.
You don't have to take accountability or ownership of the things that you do.
And while that might feel safe, it's not a way to live.
Flying monkeys often believe if I align, I'm safe. If I question, I'm next.
If I deliver the message, I stay in good standing. They're not asking,
is this true? They're asking, who do I need to stay connected to? Who's in the most power?
And why both of those roles feel so invalidating. Here's what I think people
don't talk about enough. Switzerland friends make you feel unseen.
Flying monkeys make you feel exposed.
One withdraws emotional presence. The other weaponizes your vulnerability and
both create the same internal spiral. Maybe I'm too sensitive. Maybe I said it wrong.
Maybe I'm the problem. And that's you and your wonderful goodness saying,
if I can make it about me, I'll fix it. But what if it's not about you?
That spiral is not a personal failure. It's a byproduct of being emotionally
honest as you start to wake up to these narcissistic or emotionally immature systems.
And it's your emotional honesty in an emotionally unsafe system.
And unfortunately, what we want to do is explain yourself.
If you've been in this dynamic, you most likely understand you can't fix it
by explaining it better. Most people stuck in this dynamic believe some version of.
If I can just explain it clearly, they'll understand. But here is the truth.
Switzerland friends don't lack information. They lack the capacity to sit with
all that discomfort and curiosity.
Flying monkeys don't lack understanding. They lack freedom. You can't talk somebody
into emotional immaturity and you can't reason somebody out of a role that keeps
them regulated and safe.
It goes back to you can't give someone else their aha moment or their epiphany.
They have to find that on their own.
And what that means for you is this is often the turning point because once
you understand that these roles exist to manage their discomfort,
not to reflect your reality, then hopefully you can stop taking their response
as feedback about your worth, your perception, your sanity.
Those reactions tell you something really valuable, not about you, about them.
And what do you even do with the clarity? Once you see the roles clearly,
there's usually a brief moment of relief.
Sounds like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. But then almost immediately,
here comes another feeling, grief.
But it's clarity, awareness doesn't always bring a lot of joy.
It doesn't even necessarily bring understanding. It brings a sense of loss because
now you're going to grieve. You're not just grieving what happened with Ned.
You all of a sudden are grieving the realization that some of the people that
you hoped would show up for you can't.
And you've spent a tremendous amount of time typically in this narcissistic
or emotionally immature system.
That's not a failure of discernment on your part. That's your differentiation work.
That's why I like saying that we are all emotionally mature and we find ourselves
in codependent and enmeshed relationships.
But the hope, the goal is that as you grow and experience life and start to
realize who you are, that you are doing that with others in healthy ways and
you are all becoming more emotionally mature.
A few steps to be aware of. Step one, I would love to help you stop confusing
explanation with connection. I think one of the most exhausting habits people
develop in narcissistic systems is over-explaining.
You explain your tone, your intent, your feelings, your boundaries,
and every explanation feels like it should make sense because it does. Actually, it does.
And you hope that that will be enough. But explanation isn't connection.
It's more of an attack surface.
Switzerland friends don't withdraw because they don't understand you.
They withdraw because emotional proximity to you feels unsafe now.
Flying monkeys don't push back because your story is unclear. Oh no.
They push back because it's actually the clarity that threatens their position in the system.
The work here is kind of subtle, but it's really profound.
You actually stop explaining yourself to people who consistently use your explanations
as the reason to disengage dismiss or deliver you back into the arms of the narcissistic person,
that's over time not being defensive or immature it's being more selective and
you really do as cliched as it sounds you start to figure out who your real
friends are now step two it's time to adjust expectations it's not for you to
then give up of yourself this is where people get stuck they open.
Maybe this time Steve will hear me. Maybe this time Fran will understand it different.
But emotional maturity isn't revealed by good intentions. It's revealed by what
somebody does when things get uncomfortable.
And so instead of asking, why won't they show up for me? The more grounded question starts to be.
What have they consistently shown me that they're capable of?
That behavior does become a language.
That question isn't some criticizing, bitter, hard question.
It's a clarifying question.
It allows you to stop reaching for emotional support from people who don't have it to give.
Step three, stop making your anger the problem.
That's why I started with anger as a primary emotion today.
One of the most insidious parts of this dynamic is how quickly anger becomes
the focus. As soon as your anger shows up, the conversation shifts.
Whoa, hey, now you're being too harsh. You're holding a grudge.
You're being too emotional.
You need to calm down. You are too sensitive.
But your anger didn't create the problem. It's actually what revealed that anger
in this context is your nervous system finally saying, hey, enough with the
gaslighting, enough minimizing, enough pretending that this didn't matter,
enough trying to make me feel crazy. I know I'm not.
And when people fixate on your anger instead of the injustice,
that tells you something right there.
They're more invested in emotional calm than emotional truth.
They can't have your big emotions.
Once you see that, hopefully you can stop trying to manage their comfort at
the expense of your clarity.
And step four, withdraw your need for permission. This is one of the hardest
but also most liberating shifts.
You need to stop needing Steve to validate your experience. It would be great if he did.
But you know your experience. You need to stop hoping that Fran is going to
understand your boundaries.
Stop hoping that the group will agree on the narrative because the healing doesn't
come from actually consensus.
It comes from your own self-trust. It would be great if everybody was on board
and they understood and they wanted to be genuinely curious.
But when that isn't there and available, it doesn't mean your experience was wrong.
You actually don't need everybody to believe you for what happened to be real.
You don't need a unanimous verdict to justify your boundaries or what your experience was.
At some point, the most regulated thing you can say internally or out loud is,
I know what I've experienced.
That's enough. That's not arrogance.
That's becoming emotionally mature. That's letting the big kid take over in your life.
And then step five, grieve what is not going to change.
Because there is real grief in realizing that some people...
Are always going to prioritize their comfort, their access, or their proximity
to power over their integrity.
You might grieve the friend that you thought Steve was. You might grieve the
safety that you felt with Fran, or the idea that the group would protect you
if something ever went wrong.
And they most likely have said those things even, that I'll be there for you,
but not knowing what that really looks like in your time of need.
Because that grief deserves space, but grief is definitely different than bargaining.
Grief says, hey, this hurts and I have to accept it.
I need to let it in. I need to make space for it. Bargaining says,
if I explain it better, then maybe they'll change.
And only one of those really leads to some sort of internal peace.
And step six, you're going to, this almost comes as a benefit of recognizing
the Switzerland friends and the flying monkeys.
You're going to start to realize relationships that can hold weight,
that can make space for you.
Because real support doesn't require agreement. We have to agree in order for
me to then make space for your emotions.
It doesn't have loyalty tests or you don't have to be in public alignment.
The optics have to look just right.
People who are emotionally safe don't rush to fix or balance or report.
They listen. They get genuinely curious.
They say things like, you know, I don't really understand and there's no way that I could.
I don't know what it feels like to be you, but I care about you.
I care how this impacted you. And I want to hear you. I want to do my best to support you.
And things like that sounds painful. I'm here for you.
Because what is really fascinating is, honestly, if you can have some sort of
grounded, genuinely curious conversation like that, often, even if I say,
hey, what do you need right now?
The person often doesn't know because it is the first time that they're in that situation as them.
And let's just make some space for it and be right there by them.
Maybe they need to just vent.
Maybe they need validation at that moment. Maybe they need to be able to sit
with somebody in silence and know that they're okay.
Those are the people that your nervous system will eventually settle around.
That is true co-regulation.
It's as if you're saying, you know what I need? I need to borrow your nervous
system for a little while and not feel judged.
And I don't even know what I need, but I'm grateful that you're here.
And once you've experienced that kind of presence, and I find that so many people
have not even experienced that, that's what draws people into relationships,
sometimes outside of their friend circle or even outside of their own primary
relationship, is it's this feeling that they haven't felt before.
Because when you experience it, it becomes so much easier to then recognize when it's missing.
It's the, I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I know, and it's,
you can't put that genie back in the bottle.
I want to talk a little bit about co-regulation. This is the work from a guy named Dan Siegel.
I think that there's another layer that helps explain why these dynamics can
feel so intense in your body.
As I'm trying to learn even more about my own emotions, I found this concept
of co-regulation so powerful.
Dan Siegel talks about co-regulation or the idea that our nervous systems don't regulate in isolation.
In relationships, we borrow stability from one another.
Calm can regulate calm. Presence can regulate chaos.
When healthy systems, healthy relationships, co-regulation can work both ways.
People help each other stay grounded. Emotions move almost between people.
Repair happens. And over time, no one person has to carry the emotional load for everybody else.
Narcissistic systems use co-regulation very, very differently.
It actually gets hijacked because in narcissistic systems, one person like Ned,
they can't self-regulate consistently because instead of soothing himself or
self-reflecting, he then outsources that regulation. He regulates by being superior.
He regulates by being the victim, by being right, by being admired,
by being defended. And those roles can change depending on the moment.
The emotional regulation system organizes around keeping Ned stable. That is not connection.
That's everyone falling into some pattern of emotional management.
Everybody else in the system is unconsciously recruited to help regulate Ned,
the most narcissistic person in the family system.
That's why when you look at narcissistic family systems in general,
typically there is a king or queen narcissist.
Or when you have a little kid that's running the show and everybody's jumping
around to try to meet the kid's needs because the kid is losing their emotions
on a regular basis, it can feel like, man, we're all walking on eggshells around little Timmy.
Switzerland friends help regulate by reducing emotional intensity because when
you bring truth or accountability into the room, then the emotional temperature rises.
Steve feels that as a threat, so he neutralizes. You got flying monkeys,
they regulate by redirecting that threat back to the source.
When you name a pattern or you disengage, then the system destabilizes.
Information gets carried, pressure gets applied, and you get pulled back into
your familiar position.
You get pulled back into the orbit of this narcissistic family system.
This is why your body starts to react so strongly.
This is why these interactions don't just feel confusing. They start to feel dangerous.
They start to feel unsafe because your nervous system is trying to do something healthy.
The more you're aware of it, the more you try to stay grounded,
the more you show up differently, your nervous system is saying,
I think this is a good idea. this is what we need to start doing.
But then you try to establish these boundaries. You're trying to restore your
own personal integrity. You're moving towards self-regulation.
And the system does not want any part of that.
This narcissistic system, it's going to push back. Instead of co-regulation
flowing toward you, we're having a shared experience.
It flows away from you or it slaps you right in the face. It flows against you.
When co-regulation breaks down, the brain struggles to stay integrated with
this person or in this relationship.
And that's when, what do we do? We turn it onto ourselves.
Self-doubt, self-doubt spikes, anxiety increases. You start to replay conversations
and you wonder, did I imagine it?
Because again, if I can fix it, if it's a me problem, then I can fix it.
Then I can show up differently.
What if though it's not necessarily a me thing?
Or the me part of it that is the challenge is that I'm continuing to play into that. system.
That's not weakness. It's your nervous system reacting to the disconnection
in the relationship, but it's following these familiar neuropathways, this familiar pattern.
Healing doesn't happen when you convince the system to try to regulate differently.
Healing happens when you stop offering your nervous system as the cushion,
as the buffer, as the stabilizer for everybody else's chaos.
When you stop absorbing their dysregulation, their discomfort, their frustrations,
when you stop explaining yourself to try to soothe everyone,
calm their anxiety, when you stop re-engaging just to calm everybody down,
sacrificing yourself, betraying yourself, and trying to convince yourself,
no, this is the last time.
You're not being cold. You're starting to become self-regulated and the system will push back.
And once you stop participating in the old pattern with some consistency,
the system will continue to try and find a different way to get you back into the familiar.
The system will react because it's losing its stabilizer. That reaction doesn't mean that you're wrong.
It means the system itself noticed and it's trying to find its way back to homeostasis.
Now let's talk about Ned the narcissist. How does he regulate himself?
Because look what he's outsourced.
Look what that regulation actually looks like. He regulates by being superior.
You. Say something.
I jotted down a few examples just from even the past couple of weeks now
we're going to project these on to this scenario with
you and ned you i finally finished that certification program
ned yeah i thought about doing that once but honestly it seemed pretty basic
to me his nervous system settles when he's on top you provided an opportunity
to connect also known as an attack surface and then he said i know what to do
with that to tell you that i'm better than you when he is on top then he feels
like he is alive, that he exists.
If you rise, he has to rise higher or he has to pull you down.
He may regulate by being the victim. You may say something like,
man, you know what, Ned, when you said that in front of everybody,
that kind of landed rough.
Ned, oh wow. So now apparently I'm the bad guy. I guess I can't do anything right.
Now suddenly you're comforting him. His distress becomes the focus.
Now you're apologizing. Oh, you know what? No, it's okay. I'm sure I took it
the wrong way. He regulates by being right.
Or here's an example where he regulates by being right. You,
yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I just didn't sit right with me, Ned.
You know, actually, psychologically speaking, people only feel that way because
they misinterpret intent.
There's no curiosity, just correction. His version of certainty calms him.
He regulates by being right.
Or in another example, he may regulate by being admired.
Ned tells a story where he's generous or he's often misunderstood.
And then if the admiration doesn't come, then he's gonna escalate it until it does.
He's gonna continue in the narrative until finally somebody says,
oh my gosh, that is wild that you did that.
Or he regulates by being defended.
This is where the flying monkeys come in. When Fran says, I don't think he really
meant it that way, Ned feels regulated. Not because the harm was actually addressed,
but because his image was restored.
I'm going to go into a speed round where you are interacting with the Switzerland friend.
Again, based all on real conversations that have happened in therapy over the last little while.
I think that the back and forth, the ping pong match with the Switzerland friend,
this is a time when people burn the most energy.
Watch how every attempt at connection gets returned. Now, not with cruelty, but neutralization.
And the reason I want to describe this is because the Switzerland friend could do this all day long.
It's like going to the gym for them. You're giving them a workout in neutralization.
Round one, we'll talk about what it looks like, the vulnerability, you.
You say sometimes ned just makes me feel really
really small steve well i don't think he means to
people come across differently sometimes your feeling gets reframed into intent
it's called this round two clarification you no i'm not saying that he means
to i'm just kind of talking about how it lands steve yeah that's kind of subjective
right your lived experience now becomes a philosophical concept.
Round three, talk about a pattern. You, I mean, it's not just one moment though.
It seems to me like it's a pattern.
Steve, I've never really seen that side of him. Now your reality is disqualified
by his lack of exposure, lack of experience.
Round four, talk about impact. You, I honestly, I just wish somebody would acknowledge
how hard this has been in trying to have this friendship with him.
Steve, you actually think focusing on it too much is the thing that's keeping
you stuck. Now your need for understanding becomes a problem.
Round five, you try a boundary. You know what? That's why I think if he's going
to do this, then I'm going to pull back a bit.
Steve, I really don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that there really
needs to be that much drama.
Now your boundary becomes a threat to peace. Let's go one more round. Round six, exhaustion.
You, you know, I'm not trying to create drama.
And Steve, hey, I just, I don't think anybody here is a villain.
And suddenly you're defending a position you
never took you didn't call him a villain again not
even necessarily misunderstanding it's more like nervous system choreography
every time you try to move toward specificity impact accountability steve moves
toward neutrality abstraction de-escalation not because he's manipulative not
because he's a bad person.
But because his regulation depends on avoiding the big feelings, avoiding intensity.
You're trying to be understood. He's trying to calm the room.
And those goals are incompatible.
But yet you, as the pathologically kind person, the person that's willing to
absorb the discomfort for everybody, most likely is going to continue to try
to figure out a way to try and be heard and understood.
Now, let's take a look at that same concept with the flying monkey.
Round one, sharing, you.
I'm trying to set some boundaries with Ned. some of the things he says really
get under my skin. Fran, you know how sensitive he is. He's been under a lot of stress.
Your experience gets rerouted back into his emotional state.
Round two, you're looking for clarification. You say, no, I get that he's stressed.
I'm just talking about how it affects me.
Fran, I know. I just don't want you saying things that could really hurt him.
Again, your boundary becomes now a potential offense to Ned.
Round three, we're back to looking at a pattern. You, it's a pattern though. I end up feeling small.
Fran, I think you might be taking it more personally than he actually intends.
Now the impact is reframed as you're the one that's misinterpreting things.
Take a look at now, we'll go round four, vulnerability, you.
It makes me though question myself sometimes.
Fran, you know, he was actually really upset when you pulled back because he
didn't understand what he did wrong.
Your vulnerability is carried straight back to him.
Round five, back to boundary, you, that's why I think I do need some space right now.
Fran, okay, but he actually feels like you're abandoning him.
Your boundary suddenly becomes a moral failure. And then we go round six,
defense, you, I'm not abandoning anybody. I'm trying to take care of myself.
Fran, I know I just think it'd be better if you tried to explain it more.
Maybe if you could try to make it make more sense to him, he'd be more open.
So that responsibility gets handed right back to you.
And then last round, let's go a couple more here. Round seven, self-doubt.
You, I know, but I'm really not trying to make this a big thing.
Fran then says, I just don't want this to turn into something that ends up hurting all of us.
Your pain now is a threat to the entire system. And then round eight, betrayal.
You, okay, but I didn't realize talking to you would actually get back to him.
Fran, honestly, I didn't want him to hear it from somebody else.
That would have been worse. Now the betrayal is reframed as protection.
Switzerland friends leave you feeling invisible.
Flying monkeys leave you feeling exposed.
You walk away thinking, I just should not have said anything.
Now I made it worse. Why do I feel like I'm in trouble?
And I had someone recently even say that they said, I start feeling like I'm,
it feels like I'm being paranoid. And I told them it's not paranoia.
It's your body recognizing that your vulnerability was used as some sort of
weapon or a currency instead of being protected. In both dynamics,
though, something really important is happening.
You're not failing to explain things clearly.
They're not failing to understand.
Switzerland friends are organizing their nervous systems around not understanding
because understanding would require some emotional risk.
Flying monkeys are organizing around alignment because clarity threatens their position in the system.
And each time you try again, they get stronger at minimizing,
neutralizing, deflecting, and the more emotionally exhausted or tired you'll get.
Not because you're bad at explaining. You're actually probably really good at
explaining better than most because you have so much experience in trying to explain yourself.
But it's because you're playing a game where being understood isn't the goal.
The goal is regulation. You're playing two different games. And once you see
this, then the questions start to change.
It's not, how do I say this so they'll finally hear me? But why am I trying
so hard to be understood by somebody who needs not to understand me in order to feel safe?
That question isn't you being cynical or negative or pessimistic.
It becomes freeing. And it's usually the moment that people stop exhausting
themselves trying to earn the emotional presence and they start choosing it instead.
Choosing who they are going to offer that part of them to.
Who they are going to offer that part of them to. What those relationships are
going to be like. I want to feel safe.
I want reciprocity in the relationship. I want genuine curiosity.
So let me just share a few things that hopefully you can take away from today's
episode. First, notice what happens in your body after you share something vulnerable with anybody.
Do you feel calmer or do you feel more anxious, more grounded or more exposed?
I get to experience this as a therapist on a daily basis where people will come
in and they don't even want to talk about certain things, but inevitably when
they do, they feel better.
And it's because hopefully in therapy, the person is genuinely curious and is
making space for your emotions. And it's not about me and you are expressing
scary things and someone's not telling you you're doing it wrong.
You have this opportunity to learn to be more grounded.
Do you feel more grounded or more exposed? Because your nervous system is often
a better data source than the conversation itself.
That's where I want to go back to mouth noises. Sometimes it isn't even the
words because we may misinterpret the words.
We may forget the words, but your nervous system, the way that you feel is often
a better source, again, than the conversation itself.
And second, pay attention to how people regulate their own discomfort.
Now that you're aware of this and you can become aware of how you do it,
you'll also see how other people do as well.
Some people neutralize, some
defend, some disappear, some shut down and wait for the storm to pass.
Some stay present, some lean in. And that response tells you more about their
capacity than the accuracy of the things that you're saying,
the words that you're saying.
And third, and this one's important, stop auditioning for belief.
You don't need consensus for your pain to be real. You don't need validation
to know that your experience was real, that it actually happened.
You don't need permission to set boundaries.
And at some point, the most regulated thing you can say is...
I do know what I experienced. I would like to share this with someone and have them be curious.
Sure, validation would be wonderful, but I know what I experienced.
And fourth, learn to differentiate between explanation and connection. That's a big one.
If explaining yourself consistently leaves you feeling smaller,
more confused, or more responsible for other people's emotions, it's not connection.
That's you working really hard so that somebody else doesn't have to.
When somebody says, yeah, I don't understand. In an ideal situation,
that's for them to try to figure out what is it that I'm not understanding because
you're sharing with me your experience.
When people say to me, yeah, I don't know if I'm going to say this right.
My first thing out of my mouth is, oh, you're going to say it just fine.
And let me see if I can understand what you're saying. And I'll ask questions if not.
Fifth, choose relationships that can hold emotional weight.
Real support doesn't rush to fix or neutralize or report. It listens.
It gets curious. It stays curious. It stays in the relationship.
Those relationships will be fewer. That is an absolute fact.
When you get out of this co-regulating, these narcissistic relationships,
it will feel a bit lonely for a while because you will recognize,
oh, this is maybe the role I play in most all of my relationships.
When you find genuine, reciprocal, safe, grounded relationships,
it is like water in the Sahara desert.
You just can't get enough of it and you're worried that you won't find it again.
Those relationships become steady and your nervous system does know the difference.
The quiet truth here is that healing doesn't come from exposing narcissists
or converting Switzerland friends or outmaneuvering the flying monkeys,
even though you're going to want to try all of those, all of the above.
Healing comes when you stop offering up your nervous system as a resource to
people or to systems that won't protect it.
When you stop trying to be understood by those who are not trying to understand
you and they're doing that in order for them to feel safe, it's going to change
the dynamic in the relationship.
And that shift isn't necessarily going to be dramatic, but it's often the moment
your body finally gets to exhale.
And that's where you'll start to really feel some peace. When somebody shows
you how they regulate discomfort, believe them, not so that you can judge them,
but so that you can stop asking them to do something that they've unfortunately never learned how to do.
I would love your feedback, your questions, your examples. and anything that
you want to share. I appreciate you being here.
I don't think I've said this in a while, but you're good.
You're going through life for the very first time as you, and you're doing it
just the way that you need to do it.
You're right where you need to be, and it's going to take for better or worse
as long as it's going to take, but you're figuring it out.
And I am grateful to be a part of this journey, taking us out.
Riley Hope, not my job. And we'll see you next time on Waking Up in Ourself.