WEBVTT 00:00:11.633 --> 00:00:14.973 Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:15.053 --> 00:00:17.793 I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:00:18.093 --> 00:00:21.213 And a huge thanks to Riley Hope for her song, Not My Job. 00:00:21.553 --> 00:00:27.113 Go find it wherever you listen to music. I am really grateful that people resonate with that song. 00:00:27.593 --> 00:00:31.673 And it has become a bit of an anthem for people who are waking up to emotional 00:00:31.673 --> 00:00:32.893 immaturity or narcissism. 00:00:33.013 --> 00:00:36.593 That it's not their job to manage other people's emotions, to take care of them. 00:00:37.213 --> 00:00:41.333 Before we get to today's show, which is one that has been a long time in the 00:00:41.333 --> 00:00:44.793 making, I want to share with you what is literally going to be a sales pitch, 00:00:45.013 --> 00:00:49.253 but it's one that I debated whether or not to share on Waking Up to Narcissism in particular. 00:00:49.473 --> 00:00:53.313 I shared it recently on the latest episode on The Virtual Couch, 00:00:53.453 --> 00:00:59.293 which was an episode talking about the conflict of duty versus desire in a relationship. 00:00:59.513 --> 00:01:03.253 If you are not a Virtual Couch listener, that is a great one to go listen to. 00:01:03.513 --> 00:01:07.733 If you do happen to listen to both podcasts, you may or may not know that they 00:01:07.733 --> 00:01:09.113 tend to serve different audiences. 00:01:09.573 --> 00:01:13.493 And I anticipated that when I started waking up to narcissism. 00:01:13.733 --> 00:01:17.453 Now it's almost been five years ago and they play into different markets. 00:01:17.753 --> 00:01:21.393 Waking up to narcissism has become quite a bit larger than the virtual couch, 00:01:21.533 --> 00:01:23.213 which has always been my flagship podcast. 00:01:23.393 --> 00:01:28.193 But the emails that I get from virtual couch listeners are often about individual 00:01:28.193 --> 00:01:32.233 things, anxiety, depression, addiction, faith journey, faith crisis. 00:01:32.433 --> 00:01:36.133 There is some stuff around emotional maturity and there's a lot of things from couples. 00:01:36.353 --> 00:01:40.413 A lot of the emails I get that are sent to the virtual couch are couples are 00:01:40.413 --> 00:01:43.893 saying things like we've grown apart or we can't communicate anymore. 00:01:43.893 --> 00:01:47.993 And we're finding a really difficult time understanding why those are very real struggles. 00:01:48.233 --> 00:01:51.493 I'm not saying that those are the easy ones. I mean, those are real and that's 00:01:51.493 --> 00:01:52.393 what those people are going through. 00:01:52.653 --> 00:01:55.933 But the emails I get from the waking up to narcissism audience are different. 00:01:56.465 --> 00:02:00.205 They're typically from people who have felt like something is off, 00:02:00.345 --> 00:02:03.225 really off. And it's people who felt isolated in their marriage. 00:02:03.405 --> 00:02:07.465 People who have been told so many times that they're the problem. They're too sensitive. 00:02:07.685 --> 00:02:10.945 They're remembering things wrong. And they've started to wonder if, 00:02:11.145 --> 00:02:12.505 okay, am I the narcissist? 00:02:12.725 --> 00:02:16.665 Which is one of the most frequent emails that I get. And I'm still maintaining 00:02:16.665 --> 00:02:20.285 that if you are genuinely asking yourself, if you are the narcissist, you're not. 00:02:20.565 --> 00:02:24.185 Because you're on a quest to figure out if you are or not. Now, 00:02:24.385 --> 00:02:29.605 if you hear me say that, and then you are the narcissist and you just say, am I? Nope. 00:02:29.885 --> 00:02:34.105 Okay, I can move on. That's a little different. I also get a lot of emails from 00:02:34.105 --> 00:02:39.685 people who have chronic pain and whose bodies seem to keep the score and can't 00:02:39.685 --> 00:02:41.405 find peace around their partner, 00:02:41.545 --> 00:02:45.125 where your nervous system is constantly on alert, even when nothing obvious 00:02:45.125 --> 00:02:47.305 is happening, when the person pulls into the driveway. 00:02:47.305 --> 00:02:53.025 So my sales pitch is around an updated magnetic marriage course that I am about 00:02:53.025 --> 00:02:58.885 to put on that will be held weekly and it will then become a standalone course or product. 00:02:59.832 --> 00:03:03.252 I want to be really clear with this audience what the course is not. 00:03:03.412 --> 00:03:05.112 It's not a cure for narcissism. 00:03:05.332 --> 00:03:08.692 I am absolutely not going to sit here and tell you I have some secret formula 00:03:08.692 --> 00:03:10.632 that will finally make your partner get it. 00:03:10.732 --> 00:03:14.192 I know there are content creators out there that are saying that and making 00:03:14.192 --> 00:03:15.892 a tremendous amount of money off of that. 00:03:16.032 --> 00:03:18.912 And that is a topic for another day because it drives me crazy. 00:03:19.052 --> 00:03:22.792 I think it does real damage to individuals and to relationships. 00:03:23.372 --> 00:03:27.952 But here's what I do believe. I do believe in muses. I believe we need to interact 00:03:27.952 --> 00:03:30.572 with something in order to understand ourselves better. 00:03:30.712 --> 00:03:34.392 Whether that is another human being, whether it is a show that we watch, 00:03:34.572 --> 00:03:37.432 whether it is a food that we eat, when you look at that as, oh, 00:03:37.612 --> 00:03:42.092 I'm interacting with this thing and that is helping me understand myself better. 00:03:42.592 --> 00:03:46.512 I think we need frameworks. We need a mirror, something that helps you see more 00:03:46.512 --> 00:03:50.152 clearly what you're dealing with and who you are inside of it, 00:03:50.492 --> 00:03:51.652 whatever that relationship is. 00:03:51.932 --> 00:03:54.992 And if you're not sure about what to do about your relationship. 00:03:55.332 --> 00:03:59.632 And if your partner is even somewhat open or willing, I do think that this course 00:03:59.632 --> 00:04:02.052 could serve as that kind of news for you. 00:04:02.212 --> 00:04:06.372 Because in my Magnetic Marriage course, I lay out everything I know about how 00:04:06.372 --> 00:04:09.872 relationships work from now over 20 years working as a very, 00:04:09.892 --> 00:04:14.272 very active couples therapist with over 1,500 couples under my belt. 00:04:14.372 --> 00:04:17.492 I talk about how and why we picked our partners in the first place, why that matters now. 00:04:17.692 --> 00:04:20.612 I walk through the anxious avoidant loop and how it keeps so many couples stuck 00:04:20.612 --> 00:04:25.412 in the same painful perpetual dance. And I teach my four pillars of a connected conversation. 00:04:25.452 --> 00:04:30.652 And that is a tried and true framework that gives you a home base to return to. 00:04:30.872 --> 00:04:35.432 It helps you if you feel like your reality gets challenged. I cover losing strategies, 00:04:35.472 --> 00:04:37.112 things we do in relationships that feel protective. 00:04:38.029 --> 00:04:41.809 Kept us alive, maybe in childhood, but they keep us stuck as adults. 00:04:41.969 --> 00:04:46.509 I explained why we end up in these circular arguments that don't ever seem to resolve. 00:04:46.749 --> 00:04:49.709 And I spend a lot of time on David Schnarch's four points of balance. 00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:52.949 It's a concept I've talked about a lot on waking up to narcissism. 00:04:53.069 --> 00:04:56.849 It is from the world of differentiation that gives you a way to hold onto yourself 00:04:56.849 --> 00:05:01.809 inside of a relationship without needing to attack or defend, 00:05:01.809 --> 00:05:04.049 or sometimes even more importantly, to withdraw. 00:05:04.329 --> 00:05:07.889 Now, will this course fix everything? Absolutely not. But it might help you 00:05:07.889 --> 00:05:09.409 see your relationship more clearly. 00:05:09.609 --> 00:05:12.909 It might give you language for things that you felt, but you couldn't name. 00:05:13.049 --> 00:05:16.089 And it might help you figure out what you need, whether that's a path forward 00:05:16.089 --> 00:05:20.029 together, or it might help give you a little bit more clarity if you need to 00:05:20.029 --> 00:05:21.009 make a different kind of decision. 00:05:21.189 --> 00:05:25.049 The next round is not open yet, but the wait list is. If you go to tonyoverbay.com 00:05:25.049 --> 00:05:27.649 slash magnetic, go there if you want to learn more. 00:05:27.929 --> 00:05:31.649 And then if you, if whatever you decide, I am glad you are here. 00:05:31.829 --> 00:05:34.669 And even if that's something that you don't think you can pull the trigger on 00:05:34.669 --> 00:05:37.249 now, it's something to think about. 00:05:37.589 --> 00:05:40.709 Okay. Today's topic. Oh, and please go follow me on all the social media places 00:05:40.709 --> 00:05:45.849 at virtual.couch on Instagram, a virtual couch on TikTok at substack.com slash 00:05:45.849 --> 00:05:49.949 the virtual couch on substack and doing more live question and answers. 00:05:50.089 --> 00:05:51.789 I want all your questions. I want your stories. 00:05:51.969 --> 00:05:55.529 I've got a lot of people that have sent in poems, questions around narcissism, 00:05:55.589 --> 00:05:59.089 and please keep sending those in. And even if you just want to share an experience 00:05:59.089 --> 00:06:01.049 and that is therapeutic for you, read them. 00:06:01.229 --> 00:06:03.669 I will read them all. But let's get to today's topic. 00:06:04.029 --> 00:06:07.889 What are you supposed to do when people in your life stay friends with or remain 00:06:07.889 --> 00:06:12.829 very close to the narcissistic or incredibly emotionally immature person in your life who hurt you? 00:06:13.336 --> 00:06:16.876 You may have experienced abuse by a family member, and it could be physical, 00:06:17.076 --> 00:06:18.896 emotionally, financially, spiritually. 00:06:19.216 --> 00:06:22.256 There are all types of abuse, and you may not even want to call it abuse, 00:06:22.376 --> 00:06:25.936 but it is definitely something that you don't feel good about or feel comfortable with. 00:06:26.396 --> 00:06:30.596 But then there are friends and family members that you considered close, 00:06:30.856 --> 00:06:34.016 people you thought that you really knew, or people that you thought really knew 00:06:34.016 --> 00:06:38.256 you, either deny your experience, which can be incredibly frustrating, 00:06:38.476 --> 00:06:41.276 or even rally around the person who harmed you. 00:06:41.276 --> 00:06:46.256 Or at the very least, still stay really close to them. And that can seem really confusing. 00:06:46.516 --> 00:06:51.536 And I think here's what hurts more at times than the narcissistic behaviors themselves. 00:06:52.276 --> 00:06:56.236 It's the people that you expected to stand with you, stand beside you. 00:06:56.396 --> 00:06:59.036 Not like they had to go get the pitchforks and let's go storm the village, 00:06:59.076 --> 00:07:02.636 but you kind of wanted them to at least ask, do you have any pitchforks? 00:07:02.696 --> 00:07:03.316 I mean, I'm just curious. 00:07:03.536 --> 00:07:07.596 I think of this as a secondary betrayal and it can be profoundly destabilizing 00:07:07.596 --> 00:07:09.096 because when you've been harmed, 00:07:09.396 --> 00:07:14.176 there's a natural expectation that the people who you think know you will at 00:07:14.176 --> 00:07:20.196 least offer a listening ear or belief or support or even protection. 00:07:20.356 --> 00:07:24.836 And when that doesn't happen, your nervous system doesn't just register disappointment 00:07:24.836 --> 00:07:27.236 and just think, oh, well, maybe next time. 00:07:27.982 --> 00:07:31.102 It'll actually start to register danger. As you start to wake up to the emotional 00:07:31.102 --> 00:07:35.642 immaturity or narcissistic relationships in your life, there is often a feeling 00:07:35.642 --> 00:07:40.922 that, wait, if I am not the narcissist, all of a sudden it seems like everybody around me is. 00:07:41.102 --> 00:07:43.562 And that's a natural part of the waking up process. 00:07:43.902 --> 00:07:48.622 This is also where anger starts to show up. And I think it's really important to talk about anger. 00:07:49.082 --> 00:07:53.142 Anger is so commonly misunderstood because most of the time we experience it 00:07:53.142 --> 00:07:56.762 as a secondary emotion, meaning that it's covering up something more vulnerable underneath. 00:07:57.102 --> 00:08:00.682 When my kids used to scare me, when they were little, if I yelled, 00:08:00.802 --> 00:08:02.722 Hey, come on guys, knock it off anger. 00:08:02.902 --> 00:08:05.622 That's a secondary emotion because the primary emotion is embarrassment that 00:08:05.622 --> 00:08:09.362 this little tiny human could make me scream and darn near soil myself. 00:08:09.762 --> 00:08:13.302 If somebody snaps in a meeting rather than admitting that they feel, 00:08:13.602 --> 00:08:16.342 Oh my gosh, I'm underprepared. If they, well, what was I supposed to do? 00:08:16.582 --> 00:08:20.422 Nobody told me that if that person becomes irritable, instead of acknowledging 00:08:20.422 --> 00:08:21.842 that they feel rejected, those 00:08:21.842 --> 00:08:26.122 are examples in those cases of anger as a protective layer. It's immature. 00:08:26.382 --> 00:08:30.102 It's a secondary emotion, but anger can also be a primary emotion. 00:08:30.202 --> 00:08:33.762 And that's typically when it's tied to the concept of injustice. 00:08:34.042 --> 00:08:38.302 Right now, there's a lot of anger in the country, if you are in the United States, 00:08:38.322 --> 00:08:41.422 and that anger is about injustice. 00:08:41.662 --> 00:08:45.682 And when you see true injustice happening, gaslighting at a major level, 00:08:45.822 --> 00:08:48.442 you will get angry. That's not a secondary emotion. 00:08:48.602 --> 00:08:52.342 That one is a primary emotion. Allow that to be there. Now, what do you do with 00:08:52.342 --> 00:08:53.482 it? That's a whole different story. 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.820 I think that so often we've learned that our emotions are scary or they aren't 00:08:58.820 --> 00:09:02.020 welcome, but that one, my friends, I think that one's pretty justified. 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.560 Now, back to today's story. When somebody truly begins to understand the depth 00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:08.680 of what they've experienced, though, in a relationship, when they start to really 00:09:08.680 --> 00:09:12.540 wake up to the manipulation, the gaslighting, the erosion of their own reality, 00:09:13.280 --> 00:09:15.120 then anger can be healthy. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.520 It can be more of a grounding response. And it doesn't mean that you have to 00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:21.680 diffuse your anger onto somebody else or take your anger out on somebody else. 00:09:22.140 --> 00:09:26.320 But that is, listen to your body. It's trying to communicate something to you. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.840 That anger isn't about losing control. It's your body recognizing something 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.480 here was not okay. And I have been, I've been trying to make it a me thing because 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:34.640 it's a me thing. I can fix it. 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:40.400 But what if I'm angry because this person that I trusted has betrayed me? 00:09:40.540 --> 00:09:43.760 This person that I've gone to to say, am I okay? Has said, I don't think so. 00:09:44.592 --> 00:09:45.912 And unfortunately, this is 00:09:45.912 --> 00:09:50.092 often when other people shift focus away from the injustice and onto you. 00:09:50.412 --> 00:09:54.372 And instead of trying to understand your experience, when you now come to them 00:09:54.372 --> 00:09:58.672 and say, I realize I have been in a really bad marriage. I've been in a really 00:09:58.672 --> 00:10:01.852 bad relationship. I've been coerced. I've been emotionally abused. 00:10:02.372 --> 00:10:05.392 They zero in on often your anger. 00:10:05.752 --> 00:10:09.972 They may tell you that you're being too irrational, too emotional, too bitter. 00:10:10.112 --> 00:10:13.072 And suddenly the conversation moves away from what happened to you that you're 00:10:13.072 --> 00:10:16.932 trying to share and toward managing your emotional response to it. 00:10:17.052 --> 00:10:19.912 I want you to know your anger isn't the problem. It's information. 00:10:20.352 --> 00:10:23.792 And narcissistic people are incredibly good at playing the victim. 00:10:23.972 --> 00:10:25.372 The victim is a one-up position. 00:10:25.612 --> 00:10:29.752 They're skilled at convincing others of their suffering. They often immediately 00:10:29.752 --> 00:10:34.112 go to those around them in your circle and try to control the narrative. 00:10:34.332 --> 00:10:37.772 Go to them and say, hat in hand, oh my gosh, I really blew it. 00:10:37.872 --> 00:10:41.932 Or, hey, I think that my wife's being really crazy. I run into this often in 00:10:41.932 --> 00:10:45.592 things like church communities, for example, where there might be an impending 00:10:45.592 --> 00:10:48.992 divorce and someone that really looks the part, especially because they can 00:10:48.992 --> 00:10:51.412 dress up and look nice in a suit. Maybe they've got a nice job. 00:10:51.692 --> 00:10:55.692 But meanwhile, they've been emotionally abusive. They're withholding money from 00:10:55.692 --> 00:10:58.012 their family, from their wife during the divorce. 00:10:58.192 --> 00:11:01.292 They immediately go all or nothing, black or white, try to cut her off. 00:11:01.612 --> 00:11:06.112 And they go and then tell everybody in their church community that they're the 00:11:06.112 --> 00:11:09.212 victim and that they just don't know what's going on. But if you can really 00:11:09.212 --> 00:11:11.932 take care of my wife, I mean, I don't know what she's going through because 00:11:11.932 --> 00:11:13.372 I'm a good guy. You all know me. 00:11:13.532 --> 00:11:17.152 They maintain this public mask that keeps them looking successful. 00:11:17.532 --> 00:11:21.672 Now, if you are somebody who values integrity, accountability and repair, 00:11:22.112 --> 00:11:25.752 oh, this starts to create confusion and some really deep cognitive dissonance. 00:11:26.072 --> 00:11:30.032 And unfortunately, narcissistic family systems, narcissistic communities, 00:11:30.292 --> 00:11:34.032 narcissistic religious institutions, they reward image over truth. 00:11:34.292 --> 00:11:37.712 And they often reward performance over honesty. 00:11:38.792 --> 00:11:42.172 Because healing is hard enough when you feel like you've been betrayed or when 00:11:42.172 --> 00:11:45.892 your heart's broken, but it becomes exponentially harder in the face of injustice. 00:11:46.771 --> 00:11:52.671 And unfortunately, there often has to be acceptance with the people that I'm working with. 00:11:53.391 --> 00:11:56.651 Acceptance that that narcissistic person is going to do that. 00:11:56.811 --> 00:11:58.871 They are going to rally their flying monkeys. 00:11:59.031 --> 00:12:02.411 They're going to look for the Switzerland friends. That's what we're going to talk about today. 00:12:02.751 --> 00:12:06.151 There has to be an acceptance because there is rarely, if ever, 00:12:06.611 --> 00:12:08.311 closure in a narcissistic relationship. 00:12:08.751 --> 00:12:12.311 You're not going to get a true heartfelt apology. They aren't going to take 00:12:12.311 --> 00:12:13.111 genuine accountability. 00:12:13.331 --> 00:12:15.771 They might make the right mouth sounds if they're cornered. Man, 00:12:15.991 --> 00:12:17.011 yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. 00:12:17.231 --> 00:12:19.751 But if you just dig in a little deeper, well, tell me what you're sorry about. 00:12:20.371 --> 00:12:23.251 Oftentimes you get the blank stare. I get that in my office from time to time 00:12:23.251 --> 00:12:25.131 where then the person says the right mouth sounds. 00:12:25.351 --> 00:12:28.051 And then if I say, oh man, that sounds really powerful. Can you share with your 00:12:28.051 --> 00:12:31.711 partner what you're now sorry about and how you come to this realization and 00:12:31.711 --> 00:12:34.751 then sit back and watch as the person just looks over at me and says. 00:12:35.531 --> 00:12:38.111 Hey, oh man, I said the words like what, what else am I supposed to do? 00:12:38.531 --> 00:12:41.731 Because it isn't a genuine apology. They aren't taking genuine accountability. 00:12:42.371 --> 00:12:45.511 At some point, the real grief isn't just about what happened. 00:12:45.851 --> 00:12:49.151 It's about letting go of the fantasy that one day they will finally get it. 00:12:49.371 --> 00:12:52.091 Would you like for them to get it? Absolutely. Will they? 00:12:52.865 --> 00:12:56.865 It's not something to cling to. I'm afraid you're going to have to give up the 00:12:56.865 --> 00:13:00.065 idea that you will someday be understood by the narcissist. 00:13:00.445 --> 00:13:03.945 Waiting for that understanding, I think, often keeps people tethered to somebody 00:13:03.945 --> 00:13:06.665 who's already shown you that they're unwilling or even unable. 00:13:06.845 --> 00:13:11.505 It could be a capacity issue to really offer a genuine apology or acceptance 00:13:11.505 --> 00:13:13.165 of their role in the relationship. 00:13:13.325 --> 00:13:17.025 And I know that the pathologically kind people listening are saying, 00:13:17.145 --> 00:13:20.705 but I'm more than willing to own up to the fact that I haven't been perfect either. 00:13:21.425 --> 00:13:26.625 And that's your projection. Bless your sweetheart because that is such a good 00:13:26.625 --> 00:13:28.745 trait in a healthy relationship. 00:13:29.325 --> 00:13:32.385 Willing to say, hey, I know that I played a role in this too. Let's talk about it. 00:13:32.765 --> 00:13:36.805 Now, other people will continue to make excuses for narcissistic behavior. 00:13:37.085 --> 00:13:39.905 And you've heard every kind of excuse. 00:13:40.265 --> 00:13:42.585 I don't think that that's really what they meant. Or, you know, 00:13:43.005 --> 00:13:45.285 yeah, I know they get mad, but they're also nice too. 00:13:45.745 --> 00:13:50.445 Or you just have to hear them out. I mean, I'm sure that there's two sides to every story. 00:13:50.725 --> 00:13:54.205 Or, okay, I know that he wasn't always nice to you, but boy, 00:13:54.285 --> 00:13:57.665 he sure helped me when I asked him some questions about whatever it is he does for work. 00:13:58.385 --> 00:14:01.645 Or, and this one can be really hard, pulling on the heartstrings. 00:14:02.025 --> 00:14:03.225 Yeah, but have you heard about their childhood? 00:14:04.085 --> 00:14:07.905 Or the granddaddy of them all, you know, you just need to let it go. 00:14:08.625 --> 00:14:11.965 These excuses are often framed as compassion. 00:14:12.565 --> 00:14:19.065 Again, very many uses of the concept of the correct mouth sounds and tone and 00:14:19.065 --> 00:14:23.005 even facial expressions can look like compassion when somebody says it. 00:14:23.245 --> 00:14:25.725 But here's the key. Here's my big takeaway. 00:14:26.185 --> 00:14:32.945 More often, they're a way for that person that has this opportunity to really 00:14:32.945 --> 00:14:34.745 step in and be there for you. 00:14:34.945 --> 00:14:38.005 That's a way that they are trying to avoid their discomfort. 00:14:38.425 --> 00:14:42.545 If they don't excuse the immature narcissistic behavior, well, 00:14:42.605 --> 00:14:44.725 then they're going to have to do some serious self-reflection. 00:14:45.565 --> 00:14:50.465 And they might have to recognize that you're reaching out for connection to 00:14:50.465 --> 00:14:56.165 be understood for some healthy validation and they're not actually given it 00:14:56.165 --> 00:14:57.785 and they might not be able to. 00:14:58.585 --> 00:15:03.005 It's far easier for that person to decide in an instant that you're the one 00:15:03.005 --> 00:15:06.285 making too big a deal out of it. With that said, welcome to Switzerland, everybody. 00:15:06.465 --> 00:15:09.485 And I'd like to introduce you to a group of friends, Switzerland friends, as a matter of fact. 00:15:09.745 --> 00:15:12.365 And I was thinking about this. If you're literally someone's friend and you're 00:15:12.365 --> 00:15:17.625 from Switzerland, I legitimately want to know if this concept tracks, but I also digress. 00:15:17.805 --> 00:15:20.545 For the sake of this episode, Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, 00:15:20.705 --> 00:15:23.165 Switzerland friends are people who insist on staying neutral. 00:15:23.465 --> 00:15:26.405 And they say things like, you know, I really don't want to take sides or there's 00:15:26.405 --> 00:15:30.045 two sides to every story, or I just want to stay out of it and I want the dust to settle. 00:15:30.345 --> 00:15:33.485 And on the surface, again, it sounds reasonable and mature and fair, 00:15:33.625 --> 00:15:37.865 but in situations involving emotional harm or narcissistic behavior. 00:15:38.445 --> 00:15:40.445 Neutrality isn't actually neutral. 00:15:41.025 --> 00:15:43.925 Switzerland friends, I don't believe are actually standing in the middle, 00:15:44.105 --> 00:15:47.785 they're standing a safe distance, protecting themselves from their discomfort. 00:15:48.225 --> 00:15:51.985 When you share your experience and you watch them immediately zoom out, 00:15:52.245 --> 00:15:54.405 minimize, or try to just balance the story. 00:15:54.525 --> 00:15:59.025 And here's the key before trying to understand what they're really conveying 00:15:59.025 --> 00:16:02.585 is, Hey, your pain, it's too uncomfortable for me to engage with, 00:16:02.725 --> 00:16:04.685 or, well, that's not my experience. 00:16:04.705 --> 00:16:07.825 And so if you have a different experience, then that means you think that yours 00:16:07.825 --> 00:16:08.925 is right. And mine is wrong. 00:16:09.265 --> 00:16:12.565 It's a form of emotional immaturity. And this is coming. if you're new to the 00:16:12.565 --> 00:16:14.365 podcast, we're all emotionally immature. 00:16:14.945 --> 00:16:19.305 Part of what I'm hoping to do is bring things out into the light from the shadow. 00:16:19.645 --> 00:16:23.085 Something that you didn't know that you didn't know, perhaps my Switzerland 00:16:23.085 --> 00:16:26.305 friend that might be listening to now, you know, and it's still uncomfortable 00:16:26.305 --> 00:16:30.165 and it might not even be easy to do. Eventually you'll be able to do it more than you did before. 00:16:30.445 --> 00:16:33.865 And over time you just become, this is who you are. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:40.320 A switzerland friend isn't necessarily conveying fairness it's more emotional 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.480 avoidance because emotionally mature people they don't rush to judgment but 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:47.120 they also don't rush to distance, 00:16:47.760 --> 00:16:52.160 they stay present long enough to understand switzerland friends skip that step 00:16:52.160 --> 00:16:56.740 entirely and i am not saying that these are bad people at all they're usually 00:16:56.740 --> 00:17:01.740 conflict averse or they're not comfortable with big emotions. 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:07.020 I've been able to talk to a number of people after the first time that I put 00:17:07.020 --> 00:17:08.460 out a Switzerland friend episode. 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:12.580 The emails were so powerful because I had people reaching out saying, 00:17:12.800 --> 00:17:16.260 I never even knew that that's what I was doing, but I sure was doing that. 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:20.360 I got to meet with a few people that wanted to really step into who they were 00:17:20.360 --> 00:17:21.840 and not show up as Switzerland friends. 00:17:22.040 --> 00:17:27.020 I found that many grew up in environments where conflict led to punishment or withdraw or chaos. 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.120 As kids, I think it's really important to recognize that they often learn, 00:17:31.320 --> 00:17:33.320 if I don't choose, then I can't be wrong. 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:37.200 And as adults, that becomes, if I stay neutral, I stay safe. 00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:41.800 When you bring them a story involving harm or any kind of moral tension, 00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:43.900 their nervous system registers threat. 00:17:44.080 --> 00:17:48.040 They see it coming when you are coming to them with that look of, 00:17:48.220 --> 00:17:51.540 oh my gosh, I think I figured something out and it's scary and I want to share 00:17:51.540 --> 00:17:54.580 this with you, their nervous system feels that. 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.500 It's like, uh-oh, this is familiar. This is what my mom and dad did. 00:17:57.580 --> 00:18:00.960 And I know I just need to, well, you know, yeah, I can see both sides of the story. 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:05.660 And it's not because you're wrong, but it's because emotional intensity feels dangerous. 00:18:06.100 --> 00:18:10.080 Rather than sitting with that discomfort, they default to this false sense of balance. 00:18:10.560 --> 00:18:16.320 And I think here's a real important part. To the hopefully becoming aware Switzerland 00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:19.660 friend, you actually don't have to take sides to take somebody seriously. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.800 Emotional maturity means being willing to understand before neutralizing. 00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:29.460 And Switzerland friends reverse that order. They quickly neutralize and then 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.300 feign understanding or feign curiosity. 00:18:33.304 --> 00:18:36.884 And this is also why they often end up protecting narcissistic people without 00:18:36.884 --> 00:18:39.144 even meaning to, without intending to. 00:18:39.764 --> 00:18:42.704 Narcissistic individuals, emotionally immature individuals present very well 00:18:42.704 --> 00:18:44.204 publicly because it's about the optics. 00:18:44.724 --> 00:18:48.624 They can be charming in low stakes relationships and they can reserve their 00:18:48.624 --> 00:18:50.924 worst behavior for those that are the closest to them. 00:18:51.204 --> 00:18:54.924 And that emotional whiplash is one of the biggest problems. 00:18:55.364 --> 00:19:00.624 And they're often quick to go try to get ahead of the narrative because typically 00:19:00.624 --> 00:19:03.404 the pathologically kind person doesn't want to bother somebody. 00:19:03.744 --> 00:19:08.524 I don't want them to think a certain thing. I think one of the key emotionally 00:19:08.524 --> 00:19:13.364 immature traits of the pathologically kind, and this is with such a bless your 00:19:13.364 --> 00:19:15.624 heart, is the managing other people's emotions. 00:19:15.744 --> 00:19:19.104 I don't want this person to think that I'm being a bother. I don't want this 00:19:19.104 --> 00:19:22.404 person to think that, I don't want them to be uncomfortable. 00:19:22.624 --> 00:19:26.044 I'm managing their emotions. I'm not even giving them a chance to have their 00:19:26.044 --> 00:19:26.984 own emotional experience. 00:19:27.124 --> 00:19:31.484 But I also think it's fair to say, while that might be projection, 00:19:31.484 --> 00:19:36.304 I think it's fair to own that projection because most likely it goes back to 00:19:36.304 --> 00:19:39.044 when you have tried to express yourself to certain people around you. 00:19:39.264 --> 00:19:42.504 And if they have played the role of Switzerland friend, then your own central 00:19:42.504 --> 00:19:46.524 nervous system, your own body keeps the score is telling you, this doesn't feel safe. 00:19:46.824 --> 00:19:51.364 Switzerland friends are often witnessing the performance, not the reality. 00:19:51.704 --> 00:19:55.504 When your experience, what you're trying to share with them doesn't match theirs, 00:19:56.184 --> 00:20:00.304 they are really good at quickly resolving that discomfort by doubting you instead 00:20:00.304 --> 00:20:01.544 of questioning their own assumptions. 00:20:02.404 --> 00:20:06.644 Everything is an opportunity to self-confront and grow. I want that to just 00:20:06.644 --> 00:20:11.124 be this mantra for everyone that when someone comes to me and says, 00:20:11.324 --> 00:20:14.464 man, I'm now realizing this certain thing happened in my relationship. 00:20:14.724 --> 00:20:19.024 If I immediately want to tell that person it's not a big deal or just look at it this way. 00:20:19.954 --> 00:20:24.874 Might feel like I'm giving them some sage wisdom, but that's me either wanting 00:20:24.874 --> 00:20:28.894 validation. If I can say this thing and change their life, then it will really dig me. 00:20:29.194 --> 00:20:32.794 Or it's me getting rid of my discomfort. Ah, maybe there's two sides of the 00:20:32.794 --> 00:20:36.934 story, but that quiet dismissal can hurt just as much as rejection can. 00:20:37.394 --> 00:20:42.454 And yet, hopefully, as you're hearing these examples, you can start to see there's 00:20:42.454 --> 00:20:46.454 some clarity because narcissistic relationships do start to act like a filter. 00:20:46.454 --> 00:20:51.454 They begin to reveal who has the capacity to tolerate discomfort who has the 00:20:51.454 --> 00:20:56.774 capacity to hold integrity over convenience and stay emotionally present even when things get messy, 00:20:57.254 --> 00:21:01.534 not just trying to sound cliched but i think true friends don't need to hate 00:21:01.534 --> 00:21:05.474 the person who hurt you they don't even necessarily need to cut anybody off 00:21:05.474 --> 00:21:08.654 they don't need to agree with every detail of your story but what they need 00:21:08.654 --> 00:21:12.334 to do is start from a place of saying i may not fully understand man, 00:21:12.494 --> 00:21:14.214 but I'm going to believe you. 00:21:14.314 --> 00:21:18.154 This is your experience. If I say I'm not buying it, that is such a me issue 00:21:18.154 --> 00:21:20.674 because I don't even know what your experience is. 00:21:20.814 --> 00:21:23.854 And if I care about you, I do want to know how this has impacted you. 00:21:23.974 --> 00:21:28.074 And yes, it might make me uncomfortable and I need to have the courage and the 00:21:28.074 --> 00:21:30.794 vulnerability to say, I don't even know what to say. 00:21:31.154 --> 00:21:34.774 I am so sorry that you have gone through this and you have felt alone or felt 00:21:34.774 --> 00:21:35.674 like you couldn't turn to me. 00:21:35.854 --> 00:21:38.814 How can I show up for you? Because often the answer is going to be, 00:21:38.934 --> 00:21:40.894 I don't know, I think you're doing it right now. 00:21:41.434 --> 00:21:43.434 Switzerland friends, though, they're going to show you their limits. 00:21:43.614 --> 00:21:46.654 And it's not through cruelty, but it's through avoidance. 00:21:46.914 --> 00:21:50.754 And then once you see that pretty clear, then the work shifts. 00:21:50.994 --> 00:21:53.094 Instead of asking, why won't they see it? 00:21:53.474 --> 00:21:57.114 Then we start working on a more grounded question. What does their response 00:21:57.114 --> 00:21:59.594 tell me about who they're able to be for me? 00:21:59.994 --> 00:22:02.194 And that's okay. That's done with acceptance. 00:22:02.634 --> 00:22:08.114 Okay. It is story time. This is, of course, based on real people, real events. 00:22:08.434 --> 00:22:12.734 We will call these people Ned, Steve, and Fran. And this is where I wish I had 00:22:12.734 --> 00:22:15.074 some waking up the narcissism players, but I will not do voices. 00:22:15.804 --> 00:22:19.044 Let's imagine somebody, we'll call him Ned the Narcissist, not because alliteration 00:22:19.044 --> 00:22:22.924 is a diagnostic tool, but because I think it's memorable and it's easy. 00:22:23.364 --> 00:22:26.284 You've known Ned for a long time, long enough to notice a pattern you couldn't 00:22:26.284 --> 00:22:29.824 quite name at first. No matter what's happening, Ned always ends up in the one-up position. 00:22:30.004 --> 00:22:33.144 You get a new car with lane change warnings. You're excited about it. 00:22:33.544 --> 00:22:37.164 Ned looks at it for about three seconds and said, oh yeah, read a bunch of studies 00:22:37.164 --> 00:22:41.484 about those and failing, driving right into pylons. People die because they rely on these too much. 00:22:41.684 --> 00:22:44.064 That's why I don't have that feature. That's why I still drive this old car. 00:22:44.064 --> 00:22:48.944 No study cited, no pause even, just authority, confidence, and the quiet implication 00:22:48.944 --> 00:22:52.004 that your excitement was naive and ridiculous. 00:22:52.604 --> 00:22:55.844 Then there's work. Ned complains about a coworker named Karen. 00:22:56.064 --> 00:22:58.264 Now, according to Ned, Karen doesn't pull her weight. 00:22:58.644 --> 00:23:00.924 Ned does everything. And somehow Karen still gets all the credit. 00:23:01.084 --> 00:23:04.264 One day you respond the way most emotionally attuned people do. 00:23:04.444 --> 00:23:05.544 Man, that sounds really hard. 00:23:05.764 --> 00:23:09.924 Now, Ned pivots. What's hard about it? It's actually easy for me because I'm really good at what I do. 00:23:10.124 --> 00:23:13.684 Now, months later, Ned complains about Karen again. Again, this time you're 00:23:13.684 --> 00:23:14.944 tired and you don't say much. 00:23:15.264 --> 00:23:18.664 And then Ned snaps. Well, you must not understand how difficult it is to work 00:23:18.664 --> 00:23:19.444 with somebody like Karen. 00:23:19.824 --> 00:23:23.604 So which is it, Ned? Unbearably hard or effortless? The answer, 00:23:24.024 --> 00:23:25.744 whatever keeps Ned on top in that moment. 00:23:26.144 --> 00:23:28.624 Over time, you realize something really important. It doesn't matter what you 00:23:28.624 --> 00:23:30.424 say. There is no correct response. 00:23:30.684 --> 00:23:34.344 Ned will always adjust the narrative so he wins. So you start to disengage. 00:23:34.564 --> 00:23:38.204 You create a little emotional distance. Not dramatically, just quietly, 00:23:38.384 --> 00:23:39.324 internally, you step back. 00:23:40.164 --> 00:23:43.524 And then here's where it gets complicated because Ned is not the only person in your life. 00:23:44.064 --> 00:23:46.724 You're also friends with Steve. Steve is your Switzerland friend. 00:23:46.884 --> 00:23:49.004 Steve's genuinely nice. He's pretty easygoing. 00:23:49.584 --> 00:23:52.524 Steve really hates conflict. One day he notices that you seem off and he says, 00:23:52.944 --> 00:23:53.604 hey, is everything okay? 00:23:54.084 --> 00:23:57.384 And in a very rare moment of vulnerability, you say, honestly, 00:23:57.684 --> 00:23:59.664 Ned can make me feel really bad about myself sometimes. 00:23:59.864 --> 00:24:03.684 And I'm trying to figure out how to deal with that. Have you ever felt that way around him? 00:24:04.204 --> 00:24:07.764 Steve hands, they go up almost reflexively. Whoa, whoa, don't drag me into this. 00:24:07.884 --> 00:24:09.724 Nobody's perfect. There are two sides to every story. 00:24:10.164 --> 00:24:13.224 And the moment's over. You didn't ask Steve to take sides. You didn't ask him 00:24:13.224 --> 00:24:17.384 to confront Ned. You asked, could he recognize your experience? 00:24:17.784 --> 00:24:22.924 But Steve is already bracing for impact. He's backing away, protecting himself from discomfort. 00:24:23.324 --> 00:24:26.184 Let's meet your other friend, Fran. Fran the Flying Monkey. Later that day, 00:24:26.304 --> 00:24:28.964 Fran's over at your place. You and Fran have bonded before over some shared 00:24:28.964 --> 00:24:30.084 eye roll moments with Ned. 00:24:30.404 --> 00:24:33.184 You've both felt the tension, the subtle jabs. When Fran says, 00:24:33.284 --> 00:24:35.024 hey, what's going on? You're honest. 00:24:35.224 --> 00:24:40.484 And you say, Ned can be really exhausting. He makes me feel small and I'm really 00:24:40.484 --> 00:24:42.424 trying to work on setting boundaries. Fran nods. 00:24:42.584 --> 00:24:46.184 She gets it. You feel relief. Finally, somebody sees it. You feel so heard. 00:24:46.664 --> 00:24:49.864 That evening, your phone buzzes. It's a text from Ned the narcissist. 00:24:50.304 --> 00:24:54.604 Ned's furious. He's hurt. He cannot believe that you would say such cruel things about him to Fran. 00:24:55.144 --> 00:24:57.584 And suddenly, you're not just managing Ned's behavior anymore. 00:24:57.704 --> 00:24:59.304 You're defending your reality. 00:24:59.744 --> 00:25:02.404 There's a key distinction here. This is where two very different roles show 00:25:02.404 --> 00:25:05.324 up around narcissistic and emotionally immature people. And if you don't understand 00:25:05.324 --> 00:25:07.404 the difference, this part can really mess with your head. 00:25:07.884 --> 00:25:10.644 A Switzerland friend insists on neutrality. They say things like, 00:25:10.744 --> 00:25:12.844 I don't want to take sides. There are two sides. I just want to stay out of 00:25:12.844 --> 00:25:15.704 it. But again, Switzerland friends aren't actually neutral. 00:25:15.924 --> 00:25:19.204 They are protecting themselves from emotional discomfort. They don't stay present 00:25:19.204 --> 00:25:22.064 long enough to understand your experience. They zoom out really fast. 00:25:22.244 --> 00:25:23.624 They're not saying you're wrong. 00:25:24.764 --> 00:25:27.964 Kind of. They're saying your pain makes me uncomfortable. 00:25:28.424 --> 00:25:31.824 And then a flying monkey is different. Now, the term comes from the Wizard of Oz. 00:25:31.944 --> 00:25:34.904 And if you just watched the Wicked movies, I even remember thinking, 00:25:35.004 --> 00:25:37.144 wait, are they bad? Is she actually bad? 00:25:38.274 --> 00:25:41.734 Again, topic for another day. The term comes from the Wizard of Oz, 00:25:41.874 --> 00:25:44.214 the original, the winged creatures who do the wicked witch's bidding. 00:25:44.414 --> 00:25:47.314 In this context, a flying monkey, somebody who actively defends, 00:25:47.474 --> 00:25:51.114 enables, or carries information, that's the key, back to the narcissistic person. 00:25:51.534 --> 00:25:54.594 Sometimes intentionally, sometimes without even realizing it. 00:25:55.394 --> 00:25:58.234 Flying monkeys aren't necessarily narcissists themselves, but boy, 00:25:58.334 --> 00:25:59.554 they love them. They hang around them. 00:25:59.894 --> 00:26:04.854 They are yes men. If you are in the world of politics or celebrities, 00:26:05.194 --> 00:26:07.074 they're going to have a lot of these flying monkeys around them. 00:26:07.074 --> 00:26:11.394 Most are emotionally immature, approval seeking, deeply enmeshed into the system. 00:26:11.554 --> 00:26:15.854 They don't have a true sense of self and they get their whole rush or charge 00:26:15.854 --> 00:26:17.514 out of being around the narcissist. 00:26:18.014 --> 00:26:22.414 Some are afraid of being the next target. Some confuse loyalty with integrity. 00:26:22.674 --> 00:26:25.934 But the outcome is the same, that instead of protecting your vulnerability, 00:26:26.254 --> 00:26:28.894 they actually deliver it back to the system that harmed you. 00:26:29.254 --> 00:26:33.454 Now, one would even ask, why do these roles even exist? Because if you have 00:26:33.454 --> 00:26:37.494 lived through something like that story, the Ned, Fran, and Steve story, 00:26:37.794 --> 00:26:42.254 the part that messes with you most usually isn't Ned. 00:26:42.434 --> 00:26:46.194 Although Ned has, but at some point you start to recognize Ned's Ned. 00:26:46.414 --> 00:26:47.434 Ned's going to be Nedden. 00:26:48.274 --> 00:26:51.074 It's typically more of that aftershock. It's a moment that you think, 00:26:51.594 --> 00:26:52.634 wait, did that really just happen? 00:26:52.754 --> 00:26:55.954 Did I even say something wrong? Why do I feel worse now before I even said something? 00:26:56.094 --> 00:26:57.794 I thought I was sharing something with a friend. 00:26:58.254 --> 00:27:01.094 That confusion isn't accidental. narcissistic systems don't 00:27:01.094 --> 00:27:04.194 just run on the behavior of one person they run on roles and 00:27:04.194 --> 00:27:07.674 these roles exist for a primary reason to regulate everybody's 00:27:07.674 --> 00:27:12.774 discomfort not yours theirs switzerland friends and flying monkeys show up because 00:27:12.774 --> 00:27:16.414 emotionally immature systems need to absorb and deflect or redirect emotional 00:27:16.414 --> 00:27:21.854 pressure so the system doesn't have to change and there is one big shock absorber 00:27:21.854 --> 00:27:27.334 that would be you my friend the system needs stability far more than it needs truth. 00:27:28.066 --> 00:27:31.546 In emotionally mature relationships, truth actually strengthens connection. 00:27:31.746 --> 00:27:34.606 It can be uncomfortable, but in emotional mature relationships, 00:27:34.606 --> 00:27:39.326 you can hold the discomfort and truth. You can maintain object constancy. 00:27:39.526 --> 00:27:44.206 You can be frustrated or even disagree with somebody and still like them. 00:27:44.626 --> 00:27:49.286 In emotionally immature systems, truth threatens stability because there is 00:27:49.286 --> 00:27:52.506 a truth. There is one right and everything else is wrong. 00:27:53.166 --> 00:27:56.526 Ned doesn't need to be right all the time because he loves being right. 00:27:56.526 --> 00:28:00.526 He needs to be right because being wrong means death and abandonment, 00:28:00.586 --> 00:28:03.186 and it would require self-reflection and humility and repair, 00:28:03.366 --> 00:28:05.306 and those things feel dangerous to him. 00:28:05.606 --> 00:28:09.666 So the system adapts. If somebody like you starts pulling away and setting boundaries 00:28:09.666 --> 00:28:13.466 and disengaging or questioning the dynamic, the system feels that as a threat. 00:28:13.606 --> 00:28:17.406 And when a system feels threatened, it doesn't ask, hey, what do we need to learn here? 00:28:17.606 --> 00:28:19.686 It asks, how do we make this discomfort stop? 00:28:20.026 --> 00:28:24.366 It's almost like the narcissist needs these Switzerland friends and flying monkeys 00:28:24.366 --> 00:28:28.146 around to then absorb and neutralize and balance the system. 00:28:28.446 --> 00:28:32.146 What the Switzerland friends are really doing, they're not trying to hurt you. 00:28:32.326 --> 00:28:34.886 They're trying to neutralize emotional intensity as fast as possible, 00:28:35.006 --> 00:28:37.706 and they're good at it. When you tell Steve that Ned makes you feel bad about 00:28:37.706 --> 00:28:40.266 yourself, Steve's nervous system lights up. Oh, I know what to do with this. 00:28:40.406 --> 00:28:43.246 Not because he thinks you're wrong, but emotional tension feels unsafe. 00:28:43.386 --> 00:28:44.566 He reaches for the fastest exit. 00:28:44.766 --> 00:28:47.486 There are two sides. Nobody's perfect. I don't want to get involved. 00:28:48.046 --> 00:28:51.126 That response isn't about fairness. It's an immediate sense of relief. 00:28:51.766 --> 00:28:54.706 Steve doesn't have to sit with your pain. he doesn't have to examine his own 00:28:54.706 --> 00:28:57.786 experiences with ned and he definitely doesn't have to tolerate any kind of 00:28:57.786 --> 00:29:02.746 ambiguity he needs certainty right now switzerland friends confuse neutrality 00:29:02.746 --> 00:29:05.566 with maturity but emotional maturity doesn't rush to balance. 00:29:06.622 --> 00:29:11.142 It stays present long enough to try and understand. And growth comes from the 00:29:11.142 --> 00:29:12.442 discomfort. I promise you that. 00:29:12.682 --> 00:29:16.022 But when you're the only one that's sitting with the discomfort and self-reflecting, 00:29:16.262 --> 00:29:19.862 the pressure can be intense and it can be enormous. And it's trying to get you 00:29:19.862 --> 00:29:21.702 to cave and fall back into your familiar role. 00:29:22.022 --> 00:29:25.062 What flying monkeys are really doing, they're not just avoiding discomfort, 00:29:25.242 --> 00:29:26.302 they're redirecting it. 00:29:26.422 --> 00:29:27.522 Fran didn't necessarily intend 00:29:27.522 --> 00:29:30.382 to betray you, but when you shared your experience, she made a choice. 00:29:30.542 --> 00:29:33.862 Often it's unconscious, but instead of holding onto your story with care, 00:29:34.062 --> 00:29:37.782 she transferred it back to the person with the most emotional power in the system. Why? 00:29:38.162 --> 00:29:40.862 Because in emotionally immature systems, narcissistic systems, 00:29:41.002 --> 00:29:44.922 whether it's in a family, a religious institution, a work situation. 00:29:45.719 --> 00:29:50.159 Closeness to power feels safer than closeness to truth, because if you lack 00:29:50.159 --> 00:29:54.499 a true sense of self, you get your whole sense of self from external validation. 00:29:54.499 --> 00:29:59.619 And if I can get it from the person in charge, from the leader above me, then I'm safe. 00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:04.099 And then I don't have to take ownership or accountability of my own thoughts, feelings or emotions. 00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:07.199 And then if things don't go right, I can say, well, I was just following this 00:30:07.199 --> 00:30:09.719 person. So you don't have to know yourself. 00:30:09.919 --> 00:30:13.119 You don't have to take accountability or ownership of the things that you do. 00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:16.939 And while that might feel safe, it's not a way to live. 00:30:17.399 --> 00:30:22.059 Flying monkeys often believe if I align, I'm safe. If I question, I'm next. 00:30:22.339 --> 00:30:25.759 If I deliver the message, I stay in good standing. They're not asking, 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.659 is this true? They're asking, who do I need to stay connected to? Who's in the most power? 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:33.279 And why both of those roles feel so invalidating. Here's what I think people 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.039 don't talk about enough. Switzerland friends make you feel unseen. 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:37.879 Flying monkeys make you feel exposed. 00:30:38.679 --> 00:30:42.519 One withdraws emotional presence. The other weaponizes your vulnerability and 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:46.639 both create the same internal spiral. Maybe I'm too sensitive. Maybe I said it wrong. 00:30:46.979 --> 00:30:51.939 Maybe I'm the problem. And that's you and your wonderful goodness saying, 00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:54.859 if I can make it about me, I'll fix it. But what if it's not about you? 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:59.379 That spiral is not a personal failure. It's a byproduct of being emotionally 00:30:59.379 --> 00:31:04.039 honest as you start to wake up to these narcissistic or emotionally immature systems. 00:31:04.379 --> 00:31:08.339 And it's your emotional honesty in an emotionally unsafe system. 00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:12.859 And unfortunately, what we want to do is explain yourself. 00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:16.819 If you've been in this dynamic, you most likely understand you can't fix it 00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:19.919 by explaining it better. Most people stuck in this dynamic believe some version of. 00:31:20.549 --> 00:31:24.269 If I can just explain it clearly, they'll understand. But here is the truth. 00:31:24.429 --> 00:31:27.529 Switzerland friends don't lack information. They lack the capacity to sit with 00:31:27.529 --> 00:31:29.709 all that discomfort and curiosity. 00:31:30.229 --> 00:31:34.549 Flying monkeys don't lack understanding. They lack freedom. You can't talk somebody 00:31:34.549 --> 00:31:37.709 into emotional immaturity and you can't reason somebody out of a role that keeps 00:31:37.709 --> 00:31:38.909 them regulated and safe. 00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:43.369 It goes back to you can't give someone else their aha moment or their epiphany. 00:31:43.509 --> 00:31:45.169 They have to find that on their own. 00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:48.249 And what that means for you is this is often the turning point because once 00:31:48.249 --> 00:31:51.329 you understand that these roles exist to manage their discomfort, 00:31:51.549 --> 00:31:56.009 not to reflect your reality, then hopefully you can stop taking their response 00:31:56.009 --> 00:31:59.489 as feedback about your worth, your perception, your sanity. 00:31:59.909 --> 00:32:04.549 Those reactions tell you something really valuable, not about you, about them. 00:32:05.009 --> 00:32:07.609 And what do you even do with the clarity? Once you see the roles clearly, 00:32:07.789 --> 00:32:09.149 there's usually a brief moment of relief. 00:32:09.409 --> 00:32:13.909 Sounds like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. But then almost immediately, 00:32:13.909 --> 00:32:16.069 here comes another feeling, grief. 00:32:16.569 --> 00:32:20.729 But it's clarity, awareness doesn't always bring a lot of joy. 00:32:20.929 --> 00:32:25.589 It doesn't even necessarily bring understanding. It brings a sense of loss because 00:32:25.589 --> 00:32:28.789 now you're going to grieve. You're not just grieving what happened with Ned. 00:32:28.989 --> 00:32:31.769 You all of a sudden are grieving the realization that some of the people that 00:32:31.769 --> 00:32:33.249 you hoped would show up for you can't. 00:32:33.329 --> 00:32:37.129 And you've spent a tremendous amount of time typically in this narcissistic 00:32:37.129 --> 00:32:38.289 or emotionally immature system. 00:32:38.669 --> 00:32:42.989 That's not a failure of discernment on your part. That's your differentiation work. 00:32:43.169 --> 00:32:46.429 That's why I like saying that we are all emotionally mature and we find ourselves 00:32:46.429 --> 00:32:48.149 in codependent and enmeshed relationships. 00:32:48.389 --> 00:32:52.169 But the hope, the goal is that as you grow and experience life and start to 00:32:52.169 --> 00:32:57.349 realize who you are, that you are doing that with others in healthy ways and 00:32:57.349 --> 00:32:59.169 you are all becoming more emotionally mature. 00:32:59.369 --> 00:33:04.649 A few steps to be aware of. Step one, I would love to help you stop confusing 00:33:04.649 --> 00:33:09.129 explanation with connection. I think one of the most exhausting habits people 00:33:09.129 --> 00:33:11.249 develop in narcissistic systems is over-explaining. 00:33:11.934 --> 00:33:14.994 You explain your tone, your intent, your feelings, your boundaries, 00:33:15.014 --> 00:33:18.954 and every explanation feels like it should make sense because it does. Actually, it does. 00:33:19.214 --> 00:33:22.714 And you hope that that will be enough. But explanation isn't connection. 00:33:22.854 --> 00:33:23.814 It's more of an attack surface. 00:33:24.394 --> 00:33:26.774 Switzerland friends don't withdraw because they don't understand you. 00:33:26.874 --> 00:33:30.154 They withdraw because emotional proximity to you feels unsafe now. 00:33:30.614 --> 00:33:33.714 Flying monkeys don't push back because your story is unclear. Oh no. 00:33:34.114 --> 00:33:37.834 They push back because it's actually the clarity that threatens their position in the system. 00:33:38.034 --> 00:33:41.274 The work here is kind of subtle, but it's really profound. 00:33:41.274 --> 00:33:45.894 You actually stop explaining yourself to people who consistently use your explanations 00:33:45.894 --> 00:33:51.894 as the reason to disengage dismiss or deliver you back into the arms of the narcissistic person, 00:33:52.654 --> 00:33:57.594 that's over time not being defensive or immature it's being more selective and 00:33:57.594 --> 00:34:01.854 you really do as cliched as it sounds you start to figure out who your real 00:34:01.854 --> 00:34:07.734 friends are now step two it's time to adjust expectations it's not for you to 00:34:07.734 --> 00:34:10.574 then give up of yourself this is where people get stuck they open. 00:34:10.734 --> 00:34:14.714 Maybe this time Steve will hear me. Maybe this time Fran will understand it different. 00:34:15.034 --> 00:34:18.354 But emotional maturity isn't revealed by good intentions. It's revealed by what 00:34:18.354 --> 00:34:19.974 somebody does when things get uncomfortable. 00:34:20.414 --> 00:34:24.014 And so instead of asking, why won't they show up for me? The more grounded question starts to be. 00:34:25.150 --> 00:34:28.890 What have they consistently shown me that they're capable of? 00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:30.790 That behavior does become a language. 00:34:31.230 --> 00:34:35.650 That question isn't some criticizing, bitter, hard question. 00:34:35.650 --> 00:34:37.030 It's a clarifying question. 00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:42.250 It allows you to stop reaching for emotional support from people who don't have it to give. 00:34:42.610 --> 00:34:45.630 Step three, stop making your anger the problem. 00:34:45.930 --> 00:34:48.650 That's why I started with anger as a primary emotion today. 00:34:48.730 --> 00:34:52.370 One of the most insidious parts of this dynamic is how quickly anger becomes 00:34:52.370 --> 00:34:55.410 the focus. As soon as your anger shows up, the conversation shifts. 00:34:55.530 --> 00:34:58.070 Whoa, hey, now you're being too harsh. You're holding a grudge. 00:34:58.210 --> 00:34:58.970 You're being too emotional. 00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:01.150 You need to calm down. You are too sensitive. 00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:04.930 But your anger didn't create the problem. It's actually what revealed that anger 00:35:04.930 --> 00:35:08.010 in this context is your nervous system finally saying, hey, enough with the 00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:10.750 gaslighting, enough minimizing, enough pretending that this didn't matter, 00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:13.210 enough trying to make me feel crazy. I know I'm not. 00:35:13.370 --> 00:35:15.870 And when people fixate on your anger instead of the injustice, 00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:17.250 that tells you something right there. 00:35:17.410 --> 00:35:20.430 They're more invested in emotional calm than emotional truth. 00:35:20.570 --> 00:35:22.570 They can't have your big emotions. 00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:26.890 Once you see that, hopefully you can stop trying to manage their comfort at 00:35:26.890 --> 00:35:28.090 the expense of your clarity. 00:35:28.870 --> 00:35:32.410 And step four, withdraw your need for permission. This is one of the hardest 00:35:32.410 --> 00:35:33.830 but also most liberating shifts. 00:35:34.330 --> 00:35:39.210 You need to stop needing Steve to validate your experience. It would be great if he did. 00:35:40.040 --> 00:35:45.180 But you know your experience. You need to stop hoping that Fran is going to 00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:46.000 understand your boundaries. 00:35:46.660 --> 00:35:50.260 Stop hoping that the group will agree on the narrative because the healing doesn't 00:35:50.260 --> 00:35:51.220 come from actually consensus. 00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:55.200 It comes from your own self-trust. It would be great if everybody was on board 00:35:55.200 --> 00:35:57.420 and they understood and they wanted to be genuinely curious. 00:35:57.700 --> 00:36:02.380 But when that isn't there and available, it doesn't mean your experience was wrong. 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:06.020 You actually don't need everybody to believe you for what happened to be real. 00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:10.600 You don't need a unanimous verdict to justify your boundaries or what your experience was. 00:36:10.740 --> 00:36:14.180 At some point, the most regulated thing you can say internally or out loud is, 00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:15.740 I know what I've experienced. 00:36:15.940 --> 00:36:17.960 That's enough. That's not arrogance. 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:23.040 That's becoming emotionally mature. That's letting the big kid take over in your life. 00:36:23.180 --> 00:36:26.960 And then step five, grieve what is not going to change. 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.660 Because there is real grief in realizing that some people... 00:36:31.308 --> 00:36:35.468 Are always going to prioritize their comfort, their access, or their proximity 00:36:35.468 --> 00:36:38.308 to power over their integrity. 00:36:38.648 --> 00:36:43.068 You might grieve the friend that you thought Steve was. You might grieve the 00:36:43.068 --> 00:36:46.588 safety that you felt with Fran, or the idea that the group would protect you 00:36:46.588 --> 00:36:47.728 if something ever went wrong. 00:36:47.888 --> 00:36:52.508 And they most likely have said those things even, that I'll be there for you, 00:36:52.548 --> 00:36:55.828 but not knowing what that really looks like in your time of need. 00:36:56.088 --> 00:37:00.868 Because that grief deserves space, but grief is definitely different than bargaining. 00:37:01.108 --> 00:37:03.968 Grief says, hey, this hurts and I have to accept it. 00:37:04.088 --> 00:37:06.428 I need to let it in. I need to make space for it. Bargaining says, 00:37:06.608 --> 00:37:09.288 if I explain it better, then maybe they'll change. 00:37:09.528 --> 00:37:13.588 And only one of those really leads to some sort of internal peace. 00:37:13.848 --> 00:37:19.528 And step six, you're going to, this almost comes as a benefit of recognizing 00:37:19.528 --> 00:37:22.028 the Switzerland friends and the flying monkeys. 00:37:22.408 --> 00:37:25.908 You're going to start to realize relationships that can hold weight, 00:37:26.028 --> 00:37:27.288 that can make space for you. 00:37:27.488 --> 00:37:31.968 Because real support doesn't require agreement. We have to agree in order for 00:37:31.968 --> 00:37:33.668 me to then make space for your emotions. 00:37:33.848 --> 00:37:39.008 It doesn't have loyalty tests or you don't have to be in public alignment. 00:37:39.248 --> 00:37:40.748 The optics have to look just right. 00:37:41.168 --> 00:37:45.028 People who are emotionally safe don't rush to fix or balance or report. 00:37:45.208 --> 00:37:48.228 They listen. They get genuinely curious. 00:37:48.628 --> 00:37:54.068 They say things like, you know, I don't really understand and there's no way that I could. 00:37:54.268 --> 00:37:57.508 I don't know what it feels like to be you, but I care about you. 00:37:57.568 --> 00:38:01.868 I care how this impacted you. And I want to hear you. I want to do my best to support you. 00:38:02.429 --> 00:38:05.989 And things like that sounds painful. I'm here for you. 00:38:06.249 --> 00:38:11.269 Because what is really fascinating is, honestly, if you can have some sort of 00:38:11.269 --> 00:38:14.849 grounded, genuinely curious conversation like that, often, even if I say, 00:38:15.029 --> 00:38:16.289 hey, what do you need right now? 00:38:16.369 --> 00:38:21.169 The person often doesn't know because it is the first time that they're in that situation as them. 00:38:21.469 --> 00:38:25.349 And let's just make some space for it and be right there by them. 00:38:25.589 --> 00:38:26.769 Maybe they need to just vent. 00:38:27.049 --> 00:38:30.389 Maybe they need validation at that moment. Maybe they need to be able to sit 00:38:30.389 --> 00:38:32.069 with somebody in silence and know that they're okay. 00:38:32.429 --> 00:38:36.029 Those are the people that your nervous system will eventually settle around. 00:38:36.209 --> 00:38:37.389 That is true co-regulation. 00:38:37.589 --> 00:38:40.469 It's as if you're saying, you know what I need? I need to borrow your nervous 00:38:40.469 --> 00:38:43.229 system for a little while and not feel judged. 00:38:43.649 --> 00:38:46.429 And I don't even know what I need, but I'm grateful that you're here. 00:38:46.549 --> 00:38:50.029 And once you've experienced that kind of presence, and I find that so many people 00:38:50.029 --> 00:38:54.129 have not even experienced that, that's what draws people into relationships, 00:38:54.149 --> 00:38:57.169 sometimes outside of their friend circle or even outside of their own primary 00:38:57.169 --> 00:39:00.449 relationship, is it's this feeling that they haven't felt before. 00:39:00.949 --> 00:39:07.029 Because when you experience it, it becomes so much easier to then recognize when it's missing. 00:39:07.329 --> 00:39:10.769 It's the, I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I know, and it's, 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:12.569 you can't put that genie back in the bottle. 00:39:12.969 --> 00:39:17.829 I want to talk a little bit about co-regulation. This is the work from a guy named Dan Siegel. 00:39:18.089 --> 00:39:21.569 I think that there's another layer that helps explain why these dynamics can 00:39:21.569 --> 00:39:23.369 feel so intense in your body. 00:39:23.489 --> 00:39:27.269 As I'm trying to learn even more about my own emotions, I found this concept 00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:29.249 of co-regulation so powerful. 00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:34.009 Dan Siegel talks about co-regulation or the idea that our nervous systems don't regulate in isolation. 00:39:34.369 --> 00:39:37.789 In relationships, we borrow stability from one another. 00:39:38.429 --> 00:39:41.809 Calm can regulate calm. Presence can regulate chaos. 00:39:42.189 --> 00:39:45.849 When healthy systems, healthy relationships, co-regulation can work both ways. 00:39:46.149 --> 00:39:50.469 People help each other stay grounded. Emotions move almost between people. 00:39:50.609 --> 00:39:55.389 Repair happens. And over time, no one person has to carry the emotional load for everybody else. 00:39:56.172 --> 00:39:59.432 Narcissistic systems use co-regulation very, very differently. 00:39:59.672 --> 00:40:04.352 It actually gets hijacked because in narcissistic systems, one person like Ned, 00:40:04.612 --> 00:40:08.612 they can't self-regulate consistently because instead of soothing himself or 00:40:08.612 --> 00:40:13.852 self-reflecting, he then outsources that regulation. He regulates by being superior. 00:40:14.092 --> 00:40:17.552 He regulates by being the victim, by being right, by being admired, 00:40:17.712 --> 00:40:21.892 by being defended. And those roles can change depending on the moment. 00:40:22.513 --> 00:40:28.073 The emotional regulation system organizes around keeping Ned stable. That is not connection. 00:40:28.313 --> 00:40:32.113 That's everyone falling into some pattern of emotional management. 00:40:32.633 --> 00:40:36.793 Everybody else in the system is unconsciously recruited to help regulate Ned, 00:40:37.053 --> 00:40:39.393 the most narcissistic person in the family system. 00:40:39.513 --> 00:40:42.113 That's why when you look at narcissistic family systems in general, 00:40:42.293 --> 00:40:44.673 typically there is a king or queen narcissist. 00:40:45.193 --> 00:40:48.633 Or when you have a little kid that's running the show and everybody's jumping 00:40:48.633 --> 00:40:52.473 around to try to meet the kid's needs because the kid is losing their emotions 00:40:52.473 --> 00:40:56.953 on a regular basis, it can feel like, man, we're all walking on eggshells around little Timmy. 00:40:57.533 --> 00:41:01.413 Switzerland friends help regulate by reducing emotional intensity because when 00:41:01.413 --> 00:41:05.593 you bring truth or accountability into the room, then the emotional temperature rises. 00:41:06.593 --> 00:41:10.753 Steve feels that as a threat, so he neutralizes. You got flying monkeys, 00:41:10.933 --> 00:41:13.753 they regulate by redirecting that threat back to the source. 00:41:13.893 --> 00:41:17.873 When you name a pattern or you disengage, then the system destabilizes. 00:41:17.873 --> 00:41:21.873 Information gets carried, pressure gets applied, and you get pulled back into 00:41:21.873 --> 00:41:22.893 your familiar position. 00:41:23.053 --> 00:41:26.033 You get pulled back into the orbit of this narcissistic family system. 00:41:26.193 --> 00:41:28.673 This is why your body starts to react so strongly. 00:41:28.953 --> 00:41:33.133 This is why these interactions don't just feel confusing. They start to feel dangerous. 00:41:33.273 --> 00:41:36.653 They start to feel unsafe because your nervous system is trying to do something healthy. 00:41:36.793 --> 00:41:39.113 The more you're aware of it, the more you try to stay grounded, 00:41:39.433 --> 00:41:42.473 the more you show up differently, your nervous system is saying, 00:41:42.673 --> 00:41:45.113 I think this is a good idea. this is what we need to start doing. 00:41:45.633 --> 00:41:50.153 But then you try to establish these boundaries. You're trying to restore your 00:41:50.153 --> 00:41:52.553 own personal integrity. You're moving towards self-regulation. 00:41:52.653 --> 00:41:55.193 And the system does not want any part of that. 00:41:55.353 --> 00:41:59.113 This narcissistic system, it's going to push back. Instead of co-regulation 00:41:59.113 --> 00:42:01.773 flowing toward you, we're having a shared experience. 00:42:01.913 --> 00:42:06.633 It flows away from you or it slaps you right in the face. It flows against you. 00:42:07.236 --> 00:42:12.056 When co-regulation breaks down, the brain struggles to stay integrated with 00:42:12.056 --> 00:42:13.456 this person or in this relationship. 00:42:13.576 --> 00:42:16.436 And that's when, what do we do? We turn it onto ourselves. 00:42:16.716 --> 00:42:20.596 Self-doubt, self-doubt spikes, anxiety increases. You start to replay conversations 00:42:20.596 --> 00:42:22.296 and you wonder, did I imagine it? 00:42:22.376 --> 00:42:27.556 Because again, if I can fix it, if it's a me problem, then I can fix it. 00:42:27.636 --> 00:42:28.456 Then I can show up differently. 00:42:28.776 --> 00:42:31.916 What if though it's not necessarily a me thing? 00:42:32.036 --> 00:42:37.496 Or the me part of it that is the challenge is that I'm continuing to play into that. system. 00:42:37.956 --> 00:42:42.676 That's not weakness. It's your nervous system reacting to the disconnection 00:42:42.676 --> 00:42:47.896 in the relationship, but it's following these familiar neuropathways, this familiar pattern. 00:42:48.376 --> 00:42:53.696 Healing doesn't happen when you convince the system to try to regulate differently. 00:42:54.056 --> 00:42:58.036 Healing happens when you stop offering your nervous system as the cushion, 00:42:58.236 --> 00:43:01.796 as the buffer, as the stabilizer for everybody else's chaos. 00:43:01.896 --> 00:43:06.536 When you stop absorbing their dysregulation, their discomfort, their frustrations, 00:43:06.896 --> 00:43:11.156 when you stop explaining yourself to try to soothe everyone, 00:43:11.476 --> 00:43:15.716 calm their anxiety, when you stop re-engaging just to calm everybody down, 00:43:15.956 --> 00:43:19.396 sacrificing yourself, betraying yourself, and trying to convince yourself, 00:43:19.516 --> 00:43:20.556 no, this is the last time. 00:43:21.096 --> 00:43:27.696 You're not being cold. You're starting to become self-regulated and the system will push back. 00:43:27.876 --> 00:43:31.576 And once you stop participating in the old pattern with some consistency, 00:43:31.576 --> 00:43:39.356 the system will continue to try and find a different way to get you back into the familiar. 00:43:39.616 --> 00:43:44.616 The system will react because it's losing its stabilizer. That reaction doesn't mean that you're wrong. 00:43:44.676 --> 00:43:51.156 It means the system itself noticed and it's trying to find its way back to homeostasis. 00:43:51.416 --> 00:43:53.956 Now let's talk about Ned the narcissist. How does he regulate himself? 00:43:54.116 --> 00:43:56.176 Because look what he's outsourced. 00:43:56.316 --> 00:43:59.676 Look what that regulation actually looks like. He regulates by being superior. 00:44:00.056 --> 00:44:01.796 You. Say something. 00:44:02.609 --> 00:44:05.449 I jotted down a few examples just from even the past couple of weeks now 00:44:05.449 --> 00:44:08.289 we're going to project these on to this scenario with 00:44:08.289 --> 00:44:11.369 you and ned you i finally finished that certification program 00:44:11.369 --> 00:44:14.269 ned yeah i thought about doing that once but honestly it seemed pretty basic 00:44:14.269 --> 00:44:18.989 to me his nervous system settles when he's on top you provided an opportunity 00:44:18.989 --> 00:44:22.849 to connect also known as an attack surface and then he said i know what to do 00:44:22.849 --> 00:44:28.289 with that to tell you that i'm better than you when he is on top then he feels 00:44:28.289 --> 00:44:30.689 like he is alive, that he exists. 00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:34.809 If you rise, he has to rise higher or he has to pull you down. 00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:38.749 He may regulate by being the victim. You may say something like, 00:44:39.089 --> 00:44:41.509 man, you know what, Ned, when you said that in front of everybody, 00:44:41.729 --> 00:44:43.409 that kind of landed rough. 00:44:43.629 --> 00:44:47.309 Ned, oh wow. So now apparently I'm the bad guy. I guess I can't do anything right. 00:44:47.969 --> 00:44:51.329 Now suddenly you're comforting him. His distress becomes the focus. 00:44:51.569 --> 00:44:54.889 Now you're apologizing. Oh, you know what? No, it's okay. I'm sure I took it 00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:57.089 the wrong way. He regulates by being right. 00:44:58.504 --> 00:45:00.984 Or here's an example where he regulates by being right. You, 00:45:01.184 --> 00:45:03.464 yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I just didn't sit right with me, Ned. 00:45:03.784 --> 00:45:06.384 You know, actually, psychologically speaking, people only feel that way because 00:45:06.384 --> 00:45:07.544 they misinterpret intent. 00:45:08.084 --> 00:45:12.144 There's no curiosity, just correction. His version of certainty calms him. 00:45:12.284 --> 00:45:14.204 He regulates by being right. 00:45:14.404 --> 00:45:17.504 Or in another example, he may regulate by being admired. 00:45:18.024 --> 00:45:20.884 Ned tells a story where he's generous or he's often misunderstood. 00:45:21.204 --> 00:45:25.364 And then if the admiration doesn't come, then he's gonna escalate it until it does. 00:45:25.524 --> 00:45:28.064 He's gonna continue in the narrative until finally somebody says, 00:45:28.184 --> 00:45:30.544 oh my gosh, that is wild that you did that. 00:45:30.984 --> 00:45:33.684 Or he regulates by being defended. 00:45:34.144 --> 00:45:37.644 This is where the flying monkeys come in. When Fran says, I don't think he really 00:45:37.644 --> 00:45:41.504 meant it that way, Ned feels regulated. Not because the harm was actually addressed, 00:45:41.664 --> 00:45:43.264 but because his image was restored. 00:45:43.604 --> 00:45:50.584 I'm going to go into a speed round where you are interacting with the Switzerland friend. 00:45:50.804 --> 00:45:56.404 Again, based all on real conversations that have happened in therapy over the last little while. 00:45:56.784 --> 00:46:01.184 I think that the back and forth, the ping pong match with the Switzerland friend, 00:46:01.424 --> 00:46:04.424 this is a time when people burn the most energy. 00:46:04.744 --> 00:46:10.064 Watch how every attempt at connection gets returned. Now, not with cruelty, but neutralization. 00:46:10.344 --> 00:46:16.264 And the reason I want to describe this is because the Switzerland friend could do this all day long. 00:46:16.524 --> 00:46:20.484 It's like going to the gym for them. You're giving them a workout in neutralization. 00:46:20.684 --> 00:46:23.844 Round one, we'll talk about what it looks like, the vulnerability, you. 00:46:23.844 --> 00:46:26.684 You say sometimes ned just makes me feel really 00:46:26.684 --> 00:46:29.464 really small steve well i don't think he means to 00:46:29.464 --> 00:46:34.504 people come across differently sometimes your feeling gets reframed into intent 00:46:34.504 --> 00:46:39.044 it's called this round two clarification you no i'm not saying that he means 00:46:39.044 --> 00:46:43.364 to i'm just kind of talking about how it lands steve yeah that's kind of subjective 00:46:43.364 --> 00:46:47.364 right your lived experience now becomes a philosophical concept. 00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:53.240 Round three, talk about a pattern. You, I mean, it's not just one moment though. 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:54.860 It seems to me like it's a pattern. 00:46:55.420 --> 00:46:59.600 Steve, I've never really seen that side of him. Now your reality is disqualified 00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:02.300 by his lack of exposure, lack of experience. 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:09.080 Round four, talk about impact. You, I honestly, I just wish somebody would acknowledge 00:47:09.080 --> 00:47:12.380 how hard this has been in trying to have this friendship with him. 00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:16.380 Steve, you actually think focusing on it too much is the thing that's keeping 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:20.100 you stuck. Now your need for understanding becomes a problem. 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:25.540 Round five, you try a boundary. You know what? That's why I think if he's going 00:47:25.540 --> 00:47:27.320 to do this, then I'm going to pull back a bit. 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.700 Steve, I really don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that there really 00:47:31.700 --> 00:47:32.640 needs to be that much drama. 00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:38.960 Now your boundary becomes a threat to peace. Let's go one more round. Round six, exhaustion. 00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:42.160 You, you know, I'm not trying to create drama. 00:47:42.560 --> 00:47:45.540 And Steve, hey, I just, I don't think anybody here is a villain. 00:47:45.540 --> 00:47:48.700 And suddenly you're defending a position you 00:47:48.700 --> 00:47:52.720 never took you didn't call him a villain again not 00:47:52.720 --> 00:47:57.320 even necessarily misunderstanding it's more like nervous system choreography 00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:03.740 every time you try to move toward specificity impact accountability steve moves 00:48:03.740 --> 00:48:08.640 toward neutrality abstraction de-escalation not because he's manipulative not 00:48:08.640 --> 00:48:09.740 because he's a bad person. 00:48:10.513 --> 00:48:15.093 But because his regulation depends on avoiding the big feelings, avoiding intensity. 00:48:15.693 --> 00:48:18.573 You're trying to be understood. He's trying to calm the room. 00:48:18.733 --> 00:48:21.253 And those goals are incompatible. 00:48:21.433 --> 00:48:25.053 But yet you, as the pathologically kind person, the person that's willing to 00:48:25.053 --> 00:48:29.813 absorb the discomfort for everybody, most likely is going to continue to try 00:48:29.813 --> 00:48:32.113 to figure out a way to try and be heard and understood. 00:48:32.353 --> 00:48:35.693 Now, let's take a look at that same concept with the flying monkey. 00:48:35.973 --> 00:48:37.953 Round one, sharing, you. 00:48:38.273 --> 00:48:40.853 I'm trying to set some boundaries with Ned. some of the things he says really 00:48:40.853 --> 00:48:44.593 get under my skin. Fran, you know how sensitive he is. He's been under a lot of stress. 00:48:45.033 --> 00:48:48.173 Your experience gets rerouted back into his emotional state. 00:48:48.613 --> 00:48:53.033 Round two, you're looking for clarification. You say, no, I get that he's stressed. 00:48:53.153 --> 00:48:54.833 I'm just talking about how it affects me. 00:48:55.213 --> 00:48:59.093 Fran, I know. I just don't want you saying things that could really hurt him. 00:48:59.553 --> 00:49:03.113 Again, your boundary becomes now a potential offense to Ned. 00:49:03.833 --> 00:49:09.613 Round three, we're back to looking at a pattern. You, it's a pattern though. I end up feeling small. 00:49:10.233 --> 00:49:13.993 Fran, I think you might be taking it more personally than he actually intends. 00:49:14.453 --> 00:49:17.513 Now the impact is reframed as you're the one that's misinterpreting things. 00:49:17.873 --> 00:49:20.693 Take a look at now, we'll go round four, vulnerability, you. 00:49:21.033 --> 00:49:23.073 It makes me though question myself sometimes. 00:49:23.493 --> 00:49:26.593 Fran, you know, he was actually really upset when you pulled back because he 00:49:26.593 --> 00:49:27.733 didn't understand what he did wrong. 00:49:28.433 --> 00:49:30.893 Your vulnerability is carried straight back to him. 00:49:31.615 --> 00:49:36.455 Round five, back to boundary, you, that's why I think I do need some space right now. 00:49:36.815 --> 00:49:40.055 Fran, okay, but he actually feels like you're abandoning him. 00:49:40.335 --> 00:49:44.555 Your boundary suddenly becomes a moral failure. And then we go round six, 00:49:44.815 --> 00:49:49.335 defense, you, I'm not abandoning anybody. I'm trying to take care of myself. 00:49:49.635 --> 00:49:52.555 Fran, I know I just think it'd be better if you tried to explain it more. 00:49:52.755 --> 00:49:55.715 Maybe if you could try to make it make more sense to him, he'd be more open. 00:49:56.375 --> 00:49:59.235 So that responsibility gets handed right back to you. 00:49:59.875 --> 00:50:03.715 And then last round, let's go a couple more here. Round seven, self-doubt. 00:50:03.835 --> 00:50:06.655 You, I know, but I'm really not trying to make this a big thing. 00:50:06.775 --> 00:50:10.655 Fran then says, I just don't want this to turn into something that ends up hurting all of us. 00:50:11.075 --> 00:50:15.755 Your pain now is a threat to the entire system. And then round eight, betrayal. 00:50:16.075 --> 00:50:20.675 You, okay, but I didn't realize talking to you would actually get back to him. 00:50:21.215 --> 00:50:24.675 Fran, honestly, I didn't want him to hear it from somebody else. 00:50:24.795 --> 00:50:28.455 That would have been worse. Now the betrayal is reframed as protection. 00:50:29.428 --> 00:50:34.788 Switzerland friends leave you feeling invisible. 00:50:35.428 --> 00:50:37.848 Flying monkeys leave you feeling exposed. 00:50:38.548 --> 00:50:41.128 You walk away thinking, I just should not have said anything. 00:50:41.288 --> 00:50:43.628 Now I made it worse. Why do I feel like I'm in trouble? 00:50:44.328 --> 00:50:47.728 And I had someone recently even say that they said, I start feeling like I'm, 00:50:47.848 --> 00:50:50.648 it feels like I'm being paranoid. And I told them it's not paranoia. 00:50:50.968 --> 00:50:54.788 It's your body recognizing that your vulnerability was used as some sort of 00:50:54.788 --> 00:50:58.548 weapon or a currency instead of being protected. In both dynamics, 00:50:58.588 --> 00:50:59.948 though, something really important is happening. 00:51:00.148 --> 00:51:03.848 You're not failing to explain things clearly. 00:51:04.168 --> 00:51:06.468 They're not failing to understand. 00:51:07.208 --> 00:51:11.168 Switzerland friends are organizing their nervous systems around not understanding 00:51:11.168 --> 00:51:13.968 because understanding would require some emotional risk. 00:51:14.448 --> 00:51:19.068 Flying monkeys are organizing around alignment because clarity threatens their position in the system. 00:51:19.788 --> 00:51:23.548 And each time you try again, they get stronger at minimizing, 00:51:24.148 --> 00:51:29.088 neutralizing, deflecting, and the more emotionally exhausted or tired you'll get. 00:51:29.308 --> 00:51:32.688 Not because you're bad at explaining. You're actually probably really good at 00:51:32.688 --> 00:51:36.948 explaining better than most because you have so much experience in trying to explain yourself. 00:51:37.048 --> 00:51:40.348 But it's because you're playing a game where being understood isn't the goal. 00:51:40.648 --> 00:51:45.268 The goal is regulation. You're playing two different games. And once you see 00:51:45.268 --> 00:51:47.148 this, then the questions start to change. 00:51:47.708 --> 00:51:51.628 It's not, how do I say this so they'll finally hear me? But why am I trying 00:51:51.628 --> 00:51:56.948 so hard to be understood by somebody who needs not to understand me in order to feel safe? 00:51:57.248 --> 00:52:00.888 That question isn't you being cynical or negative or pessimistic. 00:52:01.008 --> 00:52:04.408 It becomes freeing. And it's usually the moment that people stop exhausting 00:52:04.408 --> 00:52:08.448 themselves trying to earn the emotional presence and they start choosing it instead. 00:52:08.808 --> 00:52:12.548 Choosing who they are going to offer that part of them to. 00:52:12.928 --> 00:52:16.268 Who they are going to offer that part of them to. What those relationships are 00:52:16.268 --> 00:52:17.588 going to be like. I want to feel safe. 00:52:17.608 --> 00:52:20.928 I want reciprocity in the relationship. I want genuine curiosity. 00:52:21.208 --> 00:52:23.668 So let me just share a few things that hopefully you can take away from today's 00:52:23.668 --> 00:52:27.128 episode. First, notice what happens in your body after you share something vulnerable with anybody. 00:52:27.288 --> 00:52:31.128 Do you feel calmer or do you feel more anxious, more grounded or more exposed? 00:52:32.057 --> 00:52:35.797 I get to experience this as a therapist on a daily basis where people will come 00:52:35.797 --> 00:52:39.137 in and they don't even want to talk about certain things, but inevitably when 00:52:39.137 --> 00:52:40.297 they do, they feel better. 00:52:40.597 --> 00:52:46.257 And it's because hopefully in therapy, the person is genuinely curious and is 00:52:46.257 --> 00:52:50.077 making space for your emotions. And it's not about me and you are expressing 00:52:50.077 --> 00:52:53.057 scary things and someone's not telling you you're doing it wrong. 00:52:54.237 --> 00:52:57.077 You have this opportunity to learn to be more grounded. 00:53:05.417 --> 00:53:09.897 Do you feel more grounded or more exposed? Because your nervous system is often 00:53:09.897 --> 00:53:12.737 a better data source than the conversation itself. 00:53:13.117 --> 00:53:16.837 That's where I want to go back to mouth noises. Sometimes it isn't even the 00:53:16.837 --> 00:53:19.117 words because we may misinterpret the words. 00:53:19.277 --> 00:53:23.337 We may forget the words, but your nervous system, the way that you feel is often 00:53:23.337 --> 00:53:25.637 a better source, again, than the conversation itself. 00:53:26.157 --> 00:53:28.557 And second, pay attention to how people regulate their own discomfort. 00:53:29.117 --> 00:53:32.717 Now that you're aware of this and you can become aware of how you do it, 00:53:32.837 --> 00:53:34.437 you'll also see how other people do as well. 00:53:34.617 --> 00:53:36.037 Some people neutralize, some 00:53:36.037 --> 00:53:39.637 defend, some disappear, some shut down and wait for the storm to pass. 00:53:39.957 --> 00:53:43.457 Some stay present, some lean in. And that response tells you more about their 00:53:43.457 --> 00:53:46.477 capacity than the accuracy of the things that you're saying, 00:53:46.577 --> 00:53:47.377 the words that you're saying. 00:53:47.797 --> 00:53:51.857 And third, and this one's important, stop auditioning for belief. 00:53:52.357 --> 00:53:56.597 You don't need consensus for your pain to be real. You don't need validation 00:53:56.597 --> 00:53:59.877 to know that your experience was real, that it actually happened. 00:54:00.057 --> 00:54:01.777 You don't need permission to set boundaries. 00:54:01.977 --> 00:54:04.477 And at some point, the most regulated thing you can say is... 00:54:05.464 --> 00:54:10.004 I do know what I experienced. I would like to share this with someone and have them be curious. 00:54:10.564 --> 00:54:14.044 Sure, validation would be wonderful, but I know what I experienced. 00:54:14.704 --> 00:54:19.584 And fourth, learn to differentiate between explanation and connection. That's a big one. 00:54:19.824 --> 00:54:22.924 If explaining yourself consistently leaves you feeling smaller, 00:54:23.064 --> 00:54:27.344 more confused, or more responsible for other people's emotions, it's not connection. 00:54:27.544 --> 00:54:30.424 That's you working really hard so that somebody else doesn't have to. 00:54:30.584 --> 00:54:33.684 When somebody says, yeah, I don't understand. In an ideal situation, 00:54:33.684 --> 00:54:37.144 that's for them to try to figure out what is it that I'm not understanding because 00:54:37.144 --> 00:54:39.484 you're sharing with me your experience. 00:54:39.644 --> 00:54:41.744 When people say to me, yeah, I don't know if I'm going to say this right. 00:54:41.744 --> 00:54:46.344 My first thing out of my mouth is, oh, you're going to say it just fine. 00:54:46.444 --> 00:54:50.024 And let me see if I can understand what you're saying. And I'll ask questions if not. 00:54:50.664 --> 00:54:54.044 Fifth, choose relationships that can hold emotional weight. 00:54:54.324 --> 00:54:58.844 Real support doesn't rush to fix or neutralize or report. It listens. 00:54:59.224 --> 00:55:04.064 It gets curious. It stays curious. It stays in the relationship. 00:55:04.324 --> 00:55:08.724 Those relationships will be fewer. That is an absolute fact. 00:55:08.904 --> 00:55:13.504 When you get out of this co-regulating, these narcissistic relationships, 00:55:13.504 --> 00:55:18.644 it will feel a bit lonely for a while because you will recognize, 00:55:18.984 --> 00:55:22.084 oh, this is maybe the role I play in most all of my relationships. 00:55:23.044 --> 00:55:27.664 When you find genuine, reciprocal, safe, grounded relationships, 00:55:27.664 --> 00:55:30.704 it is like water in the Sahara desert. 00:55:31.284 --> 00:55:35.224 You just can't get enough of it and you're worried that you won't find it again. 00:55:36.495 --> 00:55:40.935 Those relationships become steady and your nervous system does know the difference. 00:55:41.235 --> 00:55:44.955 The quiet truth here is that healing doesn't come from exposing narcissists 00:55:44.955 --> 00:55:48.715 or converting Switzerland friends or outmaneuvering the flying monkeys, 00:55:48.715 --> 00:55:53.375 even though you're going to want to try all of those, all of the above. 00:55:53.795 --> 00:55:57.195 Healing comes when you stop offering up your nervous system as a resource to 00:55:57.195 --> 00:55:59.535 people or to systems that won't protect it. 00:55:59.815 --> 00:56:03.675 When you stop trying to be understood by those who are not trying to understand 00:56:03.675 --> 00:56:09.055 you and they're doing that in order for them to feel safe, it's going to change 00:56:09.055 --> 00:56:10.375 the dynamic in the relationship. 00:56:10.815 --> 00:56:15.855 And that shift isn't necessarily going to be dramatic, but it's often the moment 00:56:15.855 --> 00:56:17.375 your body finally gets to exhale. 00:56:17.555 --> 00:56:21.115 And that's where you'll start to really feel some peace. When somebody shows 00:56:21.115 --> 00:56:25.135 you how they regulate discomfort, believe them, not so that you can judge them, 00:56:25.255 --> 00:56:29.895 but so that you can stop asking them to do something that they've unfortunately never learned how to do. 00:56:30.115 --> 00:56:35.955 I would love your feedback, your questions, your examples. and anything that 00:56:35.955 --> 00:56:38.395 you want to share. I appreciate you being here. 00:56:39.035 --> 00:56:42.175 I don't think I've said this in a while, but you're good. 00:56:42.575 --> 00:56:45.755 You're going through life for the very first time as you, and you're doing it 00:56:45.755 --> 00:56:47.315 just the way that you need to do it. 00:56:47.595 --> 00:56:51.495 You're right where you need to be, and it's going to take for better or worse 00:56:51.495 --> 00:56:54.455 as long as it's going to take, but you're figuring it out. 00:56:55.175 --> 00:56:58.595 And I am grateful to be a part of this journey, taking us out. 00:56:59.115 --> 00:57:02.895 Riley Hope, not my job. And we'll see you next time on Waking Up in Ourself.