WEBVTT

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Need to have your karma. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism.

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I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

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It has been a little while and that has not been intentional.

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First of all, I would love it if you would go follow me on all the social media

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places at virtualcouch on TikTok, at virtual.couch on Instagram,

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Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist.

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And follow me on Substack, substack.com slash the virtual couch.

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If you go to tonyoverbay.com, I would love it if you would sign up for the newsletter.

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I have mentioned my magnetic marriage course update in the past,

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but there is an announcement coming very, very soon that we'll have to do with a live version of that.

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Stay tuned. Or if you get on Substack or if you get on the mailing list,

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you'll be the first to know about that.

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That will be an updated version of my magnetic marriage course. It's story time.

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I want to say a week or two ago, but I think it's been a few weeks ago,

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I recorded an episode about what no doubt you saw in the title of this episode,

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the narcissistic off switch that I was genuinely ready to release. I had the idea.

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I had the energy. I had edited it. I had show notes ready to go.

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I was, I would say minutes from posting it.

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And then I just, I just ran out of time and I had clients coming all day that day.

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And I thought if I get a cancellation, then I'll throw it out there during the

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day. And if not, I'll get it out later that night.

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Then I got a text from somebody who asked me if I could come speak later that week at a conference.

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And I would say as a card carry member of the ADHD fan club,

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novelty, impulsivity can be the thing that I just, I can't turn away from new

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city, new people, new room, microphone in front of me, a speaking engagement, a fee.

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I was in, I was in before I even finished reading the text. And so side note,

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if you're looking for a keynote speaker for your organization,

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your conference, your church, I guess for the right price, kids or adults birthday

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party, let me know, because that is one of the things that I love doing the most.

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So I rearranged my schedule, I moved some clients around, I filled in all the

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open spots, and in that shuffle, now I have this unreleased episode that just

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sat there, just quietly waiting, becoming what now I will think of as a lost episode.

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Somewhere, I want to say on a hard drive in my office, but in these days, it's up in the clouds.

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It is now a rare artifact, almost like my own personal version of a lost Beatles recording.

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Maybe one day my kids will sell it for millions of dollars, which is probably not the case.

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Now, I am going to do a fair amount of setup here. So in hopes of keeping you

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interested, let me just share with you what the concept of the narcissistic

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off switch is, and then we're going to break it down.

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It was sent to me through just a short audio clip.

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Somebody had forwarded it to me

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and found it fascinating enough that I listened to it a couple of times.

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And then I said, technology be darned, I'm going to listen to it over and over

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again and type it into my computer.

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Because if I can hear it enough and see it enough on the screen,

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then I think I'll ingest it because something resonated with this concept of

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the narcissistic off switch. So here's what I typed out.

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I'll go ahead and read this now. And then we'll come back to this in detail in just a little bit.

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It's called the narcissistic off switch. It was how to disarm any narcissist.

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The biggest method of all was to always think about what they are using to get out of you.

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So if I'm in an argument, is somebody using fear, obligation,

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or guilt? And that spells fog.

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So am I going to get in trouble? Or can I recognize when somebody is using fear, obligation, and guilt?

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And if somebody is doing any of those things, I want to call it out in a non-confrontational way.

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Let's say that you give me some line about if you don't do this,

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then I'm gonna have to work 19 hours extra this week.

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But it's never about the hours, and now it's about guilt. So I can say to the

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person, hey, I'm guessing you didn't mean to, but it sounded like you wanted

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me to feel guilty about you working next week, and I know that you're a good

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person. I don't think you meant it that way.

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So I will absolutely call out any fear, obligation, or guilt,

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but I'll call it out in a non-confrontational way that says,

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hey, maybe you didn't mean it this way, but it sounded like this,

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or that this is what you were saying.

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And then it went on to say, in the art of war, which is a very popular book,

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very old now, they say you need to give your opponent a golden bridge on which they can retreat.

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So it sounds interesting, right? It tracks in a sense with a lot of the things

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I talk about, but also there's some holes to be poked there that the narcissist

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or the emotionally immature person in your life, if you, if you break down the

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game film, then a lot of the conversations

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that will resonate, that it will appear that they are using fear,

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obligation, or guilt to try and get you into compliance or into that familiar

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self-sacrificing, pathologically kind, one-down position.

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And I was going to say, but however, I am attempting to reduce the amount of

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butts said in 2026 and beyond.

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And while it sounds interesting, this narcissistic off switch,

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isn't it also still trying to give the other person a bit of an aha moment? Nay, even an epiphany.

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So I put a big giant pen in it and I got back to my day-to-day,

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occasionally bringing it up in a session with somebody that I thought might

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also find it interesting, but honestly not with somebody who would immediately

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take it and try to go use the concept without trying to understand it in more detail.

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Now, in the middle of all the travel and rescheduling and trying to figure out

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when can I get this podcast out, I stumbled upon a YouTube video by a guy named Chase Hughes.

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And the title was You're Living Inside a Prediction.

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Now, full honesty, which is the whole goal of today's episode,

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that's not something I would normally click.

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But I know at that time, I think I read the title wrong.

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I think I read it as You're Living Inside a Projection, not a prediction.

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And I am a little bit obsessed with the concepts of projection because it is

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so fascinating once you see it.

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How often we're projecting what I think you should do or how I think the world

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works onto everyone around me. It didn't say projection. It said prediction.

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The fact that I thought it said projection pulled me in.

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And at that point, this video, not the narcissistic off switch,

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but this video, this Chase Hughes video, it was fascinating, psychological.

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I will link the video in the show notes, but here's what he started off with right out of the gate.

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He says three facts about your

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brain that are absolutely not up for debate at all. So already I'm in.

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He says, fact number one, your brain is a prediction engine,

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just about everything that you experience, your emotions, your reactions,

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all of your decisions, what you decide to do, they're all filtered through whatever

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your brain expects to happen next.

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Now, I like that, the brain is a prediction engine.

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That is from a book that I am drawing a blank on.

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And I will leave this in. That is another thing of 2026. Let's be real. But it's in a book.

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So factor two, your sense of identity is not a truth. It's a forecast.

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Now he goes on to address that in great detail in this particular video.

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And that part alone is worth the price of admission.

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And he says fact number three, and he said, it's undeniable.

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The brain does not experience time the way that clocks measure it.

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So he said, if you take those three facts, prediction, identity,

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forecasting, and time distortion, he said it will explain why most people's

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lives stop changing after about the age of 25.

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He said it's not because we run out of potential. Our brain decided, hey, we've seen enough.

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This is who you are. Now, from that moment forward, he said the nervous system

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acts like a bouncer and it only lets in the thoughts and the behaviors and opportunities

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that match the established version of me.

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Everything else gets kind of filtered out. So when somebody is talking about

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how our brains constantly predict

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reality and how those predictions shape what we see and how we behave.

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I just thought, this is brilliant. This sounds a lot like the things that I

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talk about, but from a different angle.

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Then he guided the listener through a strange meditative, almost hypnotic exercise.

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And I did it. Then I did it again. Then I started clicking more of his videos

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and I realized, oh, this guy is really fascinating.

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Now, full disclosure, my background deep dive on him was from Google and more

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specifically their artificial intelligence, their AI summary of the Google search.

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And here's what it gave me.

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Chase Hughes is a leading U.S. military and intelligence behavior expert,

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author, and consultant known for his work in behavioral profiling,

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interrogation, and human intelligence.

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And I find most, if not all of those things, very, very fascinating.

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I often watch interrogation videos because they are a psychological tapestry

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on which to interact, to just learn so much about the human condition, about myself.

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But then it says that he creates advanced behavior skills courses used by government

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and law enforcement stemming from his background in the US Navy and his education

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at Missouri Military Academy.

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He's recognized for his expertise and understanding real human behavior,

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including hidden fears, which is interesting because they're hiding, and self-deception.

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Just for fun. I can honestly say that I have never AI Google searched myself.

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If I am to believe what the internet's told me about Chase Hughes,

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then I thought we would see what it says about yours truly.

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And also, as this is the beginning or the first waking up to narcissism episode

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of 2026, I'm going to imagine there are some new people here.

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Google's AI says Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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checks out, motivational speaker and author based in Northern California.

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Okay. So I was, and I have an office there, but not currently we moved.

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He's widely recognized for his expertise and acceptance and commitment therapy or act.

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Okay. That's kind of nice to see. And his work helping individuals and couples

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navigate complex relational issues. Okay. I like that. I do.

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Says he hosts the award-winning podcast, the virtual couch, where he provides

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tools for breaking negative patterns and embracing authentic living.

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He also hosts waking up to narcissism, which focuses on identifying and navigating

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narcissistic traits in relationships.

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So I would love it if the AI would pick up a little bit more on the concepts

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around emotional immaturity, because I am not assuming that everyone is a narcissist.

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And then the AI goes on to say, relationship coaching, Overbay developed the

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Magnetize Your Marriage virtual workshop.

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It's actually the Magnetic Marriage, and that's what we're rebooting here soon,

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and is known for his four pillars of connected communication.

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That's not bad. Four pillars of a connected conversation might be better.

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Addiction Recovery, he founded the Path Back, an online recovery program specifically

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designed to help individuals overcome a cornography addiction and compulsive

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sexual behavior. Just trying to not get shadow banned as this will go on YouTube eventually.

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Authorship, he's the co-author of He's a Corn Addict, Now What?

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Expert and a Former Addict, Answer Your Questions, which addresses recovery

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from the perspective of both an expert and a former addict.

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And fun fact, that book has been out now for four or five years,

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and I get a monthly newsletter from my publisher that shows that it is still

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showing up in the top 100 in sexual health and recovery, along with my co-author Joshua Shea.

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Okay, this is kind of fun. It says career pivot before becoming a therapist

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over base spent a decade as a software executive and an entrepreneur.

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I did not know this next start. I mean, I know it because it was part of my

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life, but I didn't know that this was out there.

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It says after a near fatal boating accident in his youth that severely damaged

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his legs, he defied medical expectations by becoming an ultra marathon runner,

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completing over 200 races of marathon distance or longer.

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I did get run over by a boat after my senior year and I have the scars to prove

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it, even though that was 30 something years ago, but that's a little dramatic

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saying that I defy the odds.

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I was never told that I would never walk again or anything like that,

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although that would make a much better story.

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Personal life as of 2026, he's been married to his wife, Wendy,

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for 33 years. I think the math's off there. I think we're at 35 and has four children that tracks.

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But now fast forward to the day after the conference, it went really well. I had such a good time.

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I'm driving home from the airport, a little tired, a little wired,

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still mentally unpacking what I'd just done.

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And I was listening to another one of Chase Hughes videos and it ends.

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And so then YouTube auto plays the next recommendation.

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Drum roll dramatic theme and the title pops up

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the narcissistic off switch i could hear the dramatic music off of the distance

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as if it were in my neighborhood the dun dun dun because i actually had no idea

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chase hughes was the person behind the concept in the video of the narcissistic

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off switch the only version i'd ever seen was the aforementioned clip that somebody sent me,

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and it had intrigued me but it also felt too neat too tidy too simple for the

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kind of relationships that I see every day in my therapy office.

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So my entire unreleased episode was essentially me saying, this sounds good,

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but I don't think that it works the way that people hope that it does.

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And now here I was sitting in my driveway, listening to the full version from

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the person who actually created it.

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Something interesting shifted inside. And this is why I think this is as much

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of the story as what we're going to talk about with the concepts of the narcissistic off switch.

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Taking ownership and accountability of things. because I found myself far more

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open, not because the concept had changed because it was still the same words that I was reading.

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Now, because the person behind the words had changed,

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because I had just spent hours over the last few days listening to Chase Hughes

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talk about human behavior and about nervous systems and our brains and prediction

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engines and emotional dynamics in ways that they really connected with me.

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I was beginning to trust his way of thinking. And suddenly I realized something

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I think is really fascinating.

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And I think it's part of being a human that I realized I was more willing to

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give the idea, the benefit of the doubt, because now I trusted more who it came from.

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So we'd like to think that we evaluate ideas objectively, but I don't think we do.

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I think we evaluate most things relationally, that we decide whether something

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feels true based not just on the words, but on who's saying them and how we interpret that person,

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not just their words, but a lot of things about them, how they've shown up elsewhere,

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or whether our nervous system feels safe with that person.

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And I'm really grateful for that this conference, somebody said that they actually

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found my voice comforting.

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And I thought that was really fascinating because I still hear my voice is this

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somewhat nasally drone, yet I just had recorded a meditation track.

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And when this person mentioned that, I told them that if they were open to it,

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I would send them this meditation track. Note to self, I still have not done that.

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But at some point, I would like to make that meditation track available to others.

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So now back to knowing that this content was from Chase Hughes.

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It had not changed my core values. I had not abandoned my clinical experience,

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but I could feel myself saying, okay,

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maybe I need to slow down and really understand now what the guy means before

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I decide what I think about this narcissistic off switch in general,

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because I just recorded this episode that probably would not have made him much of a fan.

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And it is not that I wanted to rerecord something because I want him to like me.

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Now that I took it in in a much greater context, I do. I have a different opinion.

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But then even better, it's not an all or nothing or black or white thing.

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It's not that now I'm saying, you know what? Game on, fellas.

00:15:10.144 --> 00:15:13.444
I take it all back. Tell the narcissist what they're doing wrong because heck, you never know.

00:15:14.024 --> 00:15:19.264
No, not at all. I'm not saying that at all. So while someday it might be fun

00:15:19.264 --> 00:15:23.004
to release this B-side the lost track, today you're going to get an episode

00:15:23.004 --> 00:15:26.284
recorded by somebody who now let curiosity do its job.

00:15:26.644 --> 00:15:30.384
So once I sat down and I listened to Chase's full breakdown of the narcissistic

00:15:30.384 --> 00:15:32.564
off switch, something surprising happened.

00:15:32.804 --> 00:15:36.304
The more I listened, the more I realized, okay, we're not actually talking about

00:15:36.304 --> 00:15:40.984
two different planets. We're talking about the same solar system,

00:15:41.284 --> 00:15:44.184
but from different places within it. I need a better metaphor,

00:15:44.304 --> 00:15:45.304
but I think you know what I'm saying.

00:15:45.824 --> 00:15:49.224
Because when you strip away at the dramatic YouTube titles and the marketing

00:15:49.224 --> 00:15:55.904
language, he's not promising emotional intimacy or healing or their aha moment

00:15:55.904 --> 00:15:57.824
or even mutual understanding.

00:15:58.304 --> 00:16:02.644
He's not saying, if you say this sentence, your narcissistic partner will suddenly

00:16:02.644 --> 00:16:08.244
wake up, apologize, and book therapy, which there are content creators who say those things.

00:16:08.444 --> 00:16:12.024
I think they are doing far more harm than good. But I think what he's really

00:16:12.024 --> 00:16:14.844
teaching is how to stop being emotionally hijacked.

00:16:14.924 --> 00:16:18.264
So he starts with this framework called FOG, fear, obligation,

00:16:18.264 --> 00:16:20.224
and guilt. and I love a good acronym.

00:16:20.584 --> 00:16:25.144
And he says that manipulators lean on one of those three levers to get what they want.

00:16:25.324 --> 00:16:29.504
I do know that once I was aware of that acronym, fear, obligation,

00:16:29.504 --> 00:16:32.004
and guilt, you do see it a lot of places.

00:16:32.244 --> 00:16:36.044
If we go from this place of, I don't even know what I don't know to now I know,

00:16:36.244 --> 00:16:37.804
but I don't even necessarily know what to do about it.

00:16:37.904 --> 00:16:41.184
Then eventually I'll know what to do with it more than I don't.

00:16:41.284 --> 00:16:44.844
And then at some point I just will become whatever that is I meant to become

00:16:44.844 --> 00:16:45.964
now that I have that knowledge.

00:16:46.244 --> 00:16:49.664
One of those three levers that they're going to So when you feel suddenly afraid

00:16:49.664 --> 00:16:53.604
or pressured or guilty, you're probably being pushed somewhere you didn't choose

00:16:53.604 --> 00:16:55.864
to go, a.k.a. manipulated.

00:16:56.872 --> 00:17:01.232
Then he adds another layer, and this is something that I did not know from the

00:17:01.232 --> 00:17:03.232
short audio clip that I had received.

00:17:03.692 --> 00:17:07.912
He calls it kava, control, approval, validation, and attention.

00:17:08.372 --> 00:17:12.472
So control, approval, validation, and attention, which is what the manipulative

00:17:12.472 --> 00:17:16.232
person is actually after by using fear, obligation, and guilt.

00:17:16.572 --> 00:17:20.072
So when I heard that, I thought, okay, that even makes more sense because I

00:17:20.072 --> 00:17:21.512
do. I see that every day in my office.

00:17:22.332 --> 00:17:25.812
It appears that what he's really saying is that if you can slow the moment down,

00:17:26.052 --> 00:17:29.712
notice the emotional lever being pulled and then refuse to take the bait,

00:17:29.892 --> 00:17:33.112
you may be able to stay more grounded or regain your footing.

00:17:33.452 --> 00:17:37.652
You won't necessarily have to scream and try to explain yourself for 20 minutes.

00:17:37.832 --> 00:17:39.052
You don't have to prove that you're right.

00:17:39.252 --> 00:17:43.152
You just don't give them the emotional fuel that they're trying to siphon from you.

00:17:43.272 --> 00:17:47.852
When I talk about me things and them things, I'm doing similar work.

00:17:47.952 --> 00:17:52.092
If their reaction is a them thing, then my thoughts and my feelings are me things.

00:17:52.332 --> 00:17:55.372
And that's not me saying that in a passive way.

00:17:55.452 --> 00:18:00.812
That would be more of your own agency. Are you taking control of your emotions in that moment?

00:18:01.012 --> 00:18:06.232
It's hopefully refusing to let somebody else's emotional storm then become your

00:18:06.232 --> 00:18:07.792
nervous system's job to manage.

00:18:08.908 --> 00:18:13.468
So when I talk about awareness being for you, not something you need the other person to agree with.

00:18:13.648 --> 00:18:16.968
Now, again, it would be wonderful if they took the time to try to understand,

00:18:16.968 --> 00:18:18.828
but ultimately that's a you thing.

00:18:18.908 --> 00:18:22.568
And I think that's what Chase was pointing toward when he says that anything

00:18:22.568 --> 00:18:25.528
brought into the light calmly loses power. I like that.

00:18:25.708 --> 00:18:29.788
I don't now think that he was trying to teach people how to change narcissists,

00:18:30.008 --> 00:18:32.668
but teaching more how for you to not be changed by them.

00:18:32.808 --> 00:18:38.148
I have some examples of this, and these are ripped from real client stories.

00:18:38.148 --> 00:18:43.728
I have put a few stories together, changed some of the details to protect confidentiality.

00:18:43.888 --> 00:18:47.808
I tried to find some examples that touched on some of these concepts of fog

00:18:47.808 --> 00:18:49.628
or kava. So let me give you the setup.

00:18:50.388 --> 00:18:54.188
Sarah's mom calls three weeks before Thanksgiving. And Sarah and her husband,

00:18:54.248 --> 00:18:57.228
Mike, have already made plans to spend the holiday with Mike's family this year

00:18:57.228 --> 00:19:01.108
because they alternated last year and it's their turn to do that this year.

00:19:01.508 --> 00:19:04.668
So Sarah mentions this to her mom. She had actually mentioned it months ago.

00:19:04.788 --> 00:19:07.448
And her mom said, that's fine, honey. And the conversation moved on.

00:19:07.628 --> 00:19:13.068
No worries. Now, the phone rings and Sarah's mom says, I just wanted to let

00:19:13.068 --> 00:19:15.308
you know. Her mom said her voice a little soft, a little shaky.

00:19:15.548 --> 00:19:18.008
And I understand that you're going to Mike's family this year.

00:19:18.148 --> 00:19:22.428
I get it. I just at the doctor yesterday and they're running some tests. It's probably nothing.

00:19:22.628 --> 00:19:26.088
I didn't want to worry you, but I was just sitting in that waiting room alone.

00:19:26.228 --> 00:19:28.368
And I just kept thinking, what if this is the last Thanksgiving?

00:19:28.908 --> 00:19:31.448
What if something really is wrong and you're not even going to be here?

00:19:32.028 --> 00:19:36.488
And then there's a long pause. And then Sarah's mom said, but don't change your

00:19:36.488 --> 00:19:38.908
plans for me. I don't want to be a burden.

00:19:39.088 --> 00:19:42.528
I'll be fine. I'm sure I'll figure something out. Maybe I'll just volunteer

00:19:42.528 --> 00:19:46.548
at the church if I can get out of my chair that day. But I just got to keep busy.

00:19:47.915 --> 00:19:52.815
What's actually happening? We slow that thing way down. The fog lever here is

00:19:52.815 --> 00:19:57.735
guilt, not fear, not even obligation. You could start making an argument there, but guilt.

00:19:58.015 --> 00:20:01.115
Her mom isn't saying, you have to come. She's not issuing a command.

00:20:01.275 --> 00:20:03.335
She's doing something a little more sophisticated.

00:20:03.735 --> 00:20:06.815
She's painting a picture of herself alone, possibly sick, abandoned,

00:20:07.055 --> 00:20:10.795
while Sarah is off enjoying herself with another family. Oh, the horror.

00:20:11.215 --> 00:20:14.835
And here's the thing. That picture, it might even be partly true.

00:20:15.455 --> 00:20:19.375
Her mom could even be really scared. She might feel lonely.

00:20:19.615 --> 00:20:22.395
But the way that she's delivering the information is designed,

00:20:22.515 --> 00:20:26.495
and I am saying this is bless her heart consciously or not, to make Sarah feel

00:20:26.495 --> 00:20:31.535
like a bad daughter for having boundaries and for not immediately running there to take care of her mom.

00:20:31.755 --> 00:20:37.675
The Kava piece, it's approval and attention that her mom wants to be chosen, which I get.

00:20:37.855 --> 00:20:40.255
She wants Sarah to say, you're more important and I'll be there.

00:20:40.735 --> 00:20:43.675
And I find this often in the couple's dynamic.

00:20:44.235 --> 00:20:47.895
She wants to feel like she matters more than Mike's family. And so she's using

00:20:47.895 --> 00:20:49.755
guilt to try to get that reassurance.

00:20:50.455 --> 00:20:53.495
So the unhealthy response, let's go through that first. Sarah hangs up the phone,

00:20:53.655 --> 00:20:54.955
immediately feels her chest tightened.

00:20:55.115 --> 00:20:58.115
She's already running the math in her head. What if something is really wrong?

00:20:58.235 --> 00:21:00.655
And what if she dies? And this is the last Thanksgiving and we could have had

00:21:00.655 --> 00:21:02.235
it together. I'll never forgive myself.

00:21:02.795 --> 00:21:05.455
What, I'm eating turkey with Mike's aunt? And then I find that out.

00:21:05.775 --> 00:21:08.775
So she calls Mike. Hey, I think we need to change our plans.

00:21:08.975 --> 00:21:12.195
Now, Mike, understandably, is a little irritated. He pushes back.

00:21:12.195 --> 00:21:15.455
Said, yeah, we've had this plan for months. Your mom does this kind of every year.

00:21:16.575 --> 00:21:19.875
Now, Sarah's caught between two people's disappointment. So,

00:21:19.975 --> 00:21:23.715
she spends the next three weeks anxious, resentful, and emotionally exhausted.

00:21:24.055 --> 00:21:28.095
So, now in her mind, it feels like she either caves and goes to her mom's feeling

00:21:28.095 --> 00:21:31.015
angry at herself for folding, or she sticks with the original plan,

00:21:31.135 --> 00:21:35.695
spends the holiday racked with guilt, checking her phone constantly, unable to be present.

00:21:36.015 --> 00:21:40.615
So, either way, her mom's emotional storm became Sarah's nervous system's job

00:21:40.615 --> 00:21:43.775
to manage and that's enmeshment that's fusion.

00:21:44.629 --> 00:21:49.969
And that's what it looks like when you feel like your only choice is to take that bait.

00:21:50.289 --> 00:21:54.029
So let's look at what the differentiated response would be. So if I rewind that

00:21:54.029 --> 00:21:57.049
scenario, same phone call, same guilt lever being pulled. But this time,

00:21:57.169 --> 00:21:58.749
Sarah pauses before she responds.

00:21:59.189 --> 00:22:02.589
Now, she feels the guilt rising in her chest. Absolutely.

00:22:02.969 --> 00:22:06.469
And she can even name it internally. Okay, I'm noticing I'm feeling guilty.

00:22:06.769 --> 00:22:09.169
I'm being invited to feel like a bad daughter right now.

00:22:09.489 --> 00:22:12.569
She doesn't argue. She doesn't defend. She doesn't explain why.

00:22:12.569 --> 00:22:15.909
It's fair that she's going to Mike's family, she just simply says,

00:22:16.009 --> 00:22:17.349
man, mom, that sounds really scary.

00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:20.429
I'm so sorry that you're dealing with that. What did the doctor say about the next steps?

00:22:20.849 --> 00:22:24.109
So she brings it back to the actual content, the medical concern without getting

00:22:24.109 --> 00:22:28.009
pulled into the emotional, what the undertow of the, you're abandoning me.

00:22:28.369 --> 00:22:32.869
And if her mom keeps circling back to Thanksgiving, then Sarah might say,

00:22:33.029 --> 00:22:35.629
I can hear that you're disappointed. And that makes a lot of sense.

00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:40.389
And I'm still going to be at Mike's family's this year, but I would love to

00:22:40.389 --> 00:22:44.509
plan done something with you the weekend after we get home. Maybe just the two of us.

00:22:45.129 --> 00:22:48.649
Notice what she did not do. She didn't say, stop guilt tripping me or she didn't

00:22:48.649 --> 00:22:52.629
get defensive. She didn't over explain. She didn't play small. She didn't just fold.

00:22:52.989 --> 00:22:56.489
She acknowledged her mom's feelings. She held onto her autonomy,

00:22:56.689 --> 00:23:00.189
her own boundary, and even offered connection on terms that'll work for her.

00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.469
And I think that's one of those things that is so fascinating is when you say,

00:23:03.529 --> 00:23:08.629
I may not be able to do it at this point at this time, but I would love to find another time.

00:23:09.403 --> 00:23:12.503
I get to watch that happen in my office often where somebody says no it's no

00:23:12.503 --> 00:23:15.003
big deal if we can't do thanksgiving then i don't know if i want to do it at

00:23:15.003 --> 00:23:19.003
all that's emotional immaturity but if it's a oh i hadn't even thought about

00:23:19.003 --> 00:23:22.763
that yeah when you guys get back let's get together that's finding a solution

00:23:22.763 --> 00:23:26.163
and that's where you start seeing this internal switch flip

00:23:26.603 --> 00:23:30.143
not because her mom changed but because sarah stopped letting her mom's emotional

00:23:30.143 --> 00:23:34.183
weather determine her own let me do another example this is one about parenting

00:23:34.183 --> 00:23:37.883
marcus and his wife jen they have a 12-year-old son, Tyler. Tyler has wanted

00:23:37.883 --> 00:23:39.163
to quit soccer for quite a while.

00:23:39.343 --> 00:23:42.563
He's been playing for six years, but this season he's miserable.

00:23:42.743 --> 00:23:44.823
He doesn't want to go to practice. He dreads games.

00:23:45.083 --> 00:23:48.363
And he had recently told his dad that he wants to try theater instead.

00:23:49.243 --> 00:23:52.403
Marcus thinks they should let Tyler quit. The kid gave it a good run.

00:23:52.523 --> 00:23:55.883
It's not bringing him joy anymore. He's been doing it for a long time.

00:23:56.103 --> 00:23:59.963
But when Marcus brings that up to Jen, she has a very, very different reaction.

00:24:00.363 --> 00:24:04.223
We can't let him quit, she said. That teaches him that when things get hard.

00:24:04.283 --> 00:24:07.843
You just walk away. That's not how we're raising him. And Marcus says, okay, I hear you.

00:24:08.363 --> 00:24:11.743
He's been doing it for six years. I don't really think that we could put this

00:24:11.743 --> 00:24:14.703
in the giving up category, but I think he's ready for something else.

00:24:14.823 --> 00:24:17.863
And I'm kind of glad that he feels like he can advocate for himself.

00:24:18.503 --> 00:24:22.303
But Jen's face hardens. Oh, so I'm the bad guy. I'm the strict parent.

00:24:22.483 --> 00:24:26.043
You're the fun one who just lets him do whatever he wants. You're the Disneyland dad.

00:24:26.263 --> 00:24:28.463
You know, I'm the one that takes him to every practice, don't you?

00:24:28.623 --> 00:24:32.443
I'm the one who rearranged my entire schedule for this. And now you're going

00:24:32.443 --> 00:24:33.583
to undermine me in front of him.

00:24:33.923 --> 00:24:38.683
And Marcus tries again. So I'm not trying to undermine you. And she's like, no, you already did.

00:24:38.823 --> 00:24:41.763
You probably already told him that he can quit, but I have to go ask mom,

00:24:41.943 --> 00:24:44.023
didn't you? So now I am the villain.

00:24:44.323 --> 00:24:47.483
So what's actually happening. The fog lever is obligation.

00:24:48.163 --> 00:24:51.403
Jen's framing this as almost like a debt that Marcus owes her.

00:24:52.038 --> 00:24:54.998
For all the driving and all the schedule rearranging and all the invisible labor

00:24:54.998 --> 00:24:56.558
that she's put into Tyler's soccer career.

00:24:56.998 --> 00:25:01.418
If Marcus sides with Tyler, he's not just disagreeing with her parenting philosophy,

00:25:01.418 --> 00:25:05.078
but he's essentially telling her that her sacrifice doesn't matter.

00:25:05.598 --> 00:25:08.638
There's also a layer of guilt here. Oh, so I'm the bad guy.

00:25:09.018 --> 00:25:11.438
You know, that's an invitation for Marcus to reassure her that,

00:25:11.518 --> 00:25:15.098
no, no, you're not the bad guy. You're a good mom. He didn't mean it. He's so sorry.

00:25:15.578 --> 00:25:19.638
And then the Kava piece, I would say would be validation. Jen doesn't want Marcus

00:25:19.638 --> 00:25:20.898
to agree with her decision.

00:25:21.218 --> 00:25:24.898
She wants him to affirm that her approach is right, that her values are the

00:25:24.898 --> 00:25:28.978
correct ones, that her sacrifices are worth it, that he is not doing as much

00:25:28.978 --> 00:25:32.858
as she is, that she's right and he's wrong. So it isn't about soccer anymore at that point.

00:25:32.978 --> 00:25:35.918
It's about whether or not Marcus sees her and respects what she's given.

00:25:36.318 --> 00:25:39.118
So let's look at the unhealthy version of that response.

00:25:39.558 --> 00:25:42.678
Marcus immediately backs down. No, you're not the bad guy. I didn't mean it

00:25:42.678 --> 00:25:44.818
like that. I'm so sorry. And he drops the subject.

00:25:45.518 --> 00:25:48.458
Tyler keeps playing soccer. Everybody's pretty miserable at that point.

00:25:48.738 --> 00:25:52.498
Tyler, because he's doing something that he does not like. And he had the courage

00:25:52.498 --> 00:25:55.538
to try to say, can I do something different that I actually want to try?

00:25:56.098 --> 00:25:59.858
Marcus, because he caved and Jen, because she got compliance,

00:25:59.858 --> 00:26:00.838
but not actual agreement.

00:26:01.018 --> 00:26:03.158
And she wishes nothing would have even been brought up at all.

00:26:03.278 --> 00:26:04.258
Why did they even have to do that?

00:26:04.538 --> 00:26:07.958
So the next time a parenting decision comes up, Marcus is going to hesitate

00:26:07.958 --> 00:26:10.778
to share his real opinion because he's now learning that disagreeing with Jen,

00:26:11.058 --> 00:26:14.818
it means a fight, not about the topic, but about his loyalty,

00:26:15.278 --> 00:26:17.618
her sacrifices, who's being undermined.

00:26:17.838 --> 00:26:20.138
And so then he starts editing himself.

00:26:20.398 --> 00:26:23.358
He stops advocating for what he actually thinks. And slowly,

00:26:23.358 --> 00:26:25.958
he becomes a co-parent in name only.

00:26:26.478 --> 00:26:29.798
So what would the differentiated response look like? If you look at that same

00:26:29.798 --> 00:26:33.918
conversation, same obligation lever, but this time Marcus doesn't rush to reassure.

00:26:34.278 --> 00:26:38.498
He's able to pause, step back, take a breath. And he says, man,

00:26:38.518 --> 00:26:41.918
I can see that this really feels important to you. And I don't think you're the bad guy.

00:26:42.685 --> 00:26:46.065
But I do, I think we just see this differently. So can we talk about what's

00:26:46.065 --> 00:26:46.965
actually best for Tyler?

00:26:47.485 --> 00:26:50.365
And Jen pushes, oh, you're still not hearing me. I'm the one who,

00:26:50.565 --> 00:26:54.145
and Marcus gently, but firmly hears her, holds the line.

00:26:54.305 --> 00:26:57.425
No, I hear you. And I appreciate that you put a lot into this.

00:26:57.585 --> 00:26:59.665
That's real. And I'm really grateful.

00:27:00.145 --> 00:27:02.925
And I think we can still make a different decision without that,

00:27:03.085 --> 00:27:04.385
meaning your effort didn't matter.

00:27:05.227 --> 00:27:08.187
So he's not dismissing her feelings. He's not telling her that she's wrong to

00:27:08.187 --> 00:27:11.387
feel what she feels, but he's also not collapsing just because she's upset.

00:27:12.447 --> 00:27:15.647
He's holding what I'm calling this masculine frame. He's staying in his lane.

00:27:15.787 --> 00:27:19.667
He's acknowledging her experience and he's still holding on to his perspective.

00:27:19.847 --> 00:27:20.487
That's differentiation.

00:27:20.987 --> 00:27:25.087
It does not mean he wins. It means they're actually now in a conversation instead

00:27:25.087 --> 00:27:27.407
of some sort of hostage negotiation.

00:27:27.687 --> 00:27:31.607
And if Jen can tolerate his differentiation, which at first she's going to say,

00:27:31.687 --> 00:27:35.687
I don't like this version of you. She likes the one that will just comply or cave in.

00:27:35.927 --> 00:27:39.907
But if she can let him have a different opinion without experiencing it as betrayal,

00:27:39.907 --> 00:27:43.607
as her being criticized, they might actually get somewhere.

00:27:43.787 --> 00:27:47.247
That's what emotional maturity starts to look like. You both can have your own

00:27:47.247 --> 00:27:52.247
opinions and they can actually both be correct because they are what you are

00:27:52.247 --> 00:27:53.707
thinking. They are your opinion.

00:27:54.307 --> 00:27:58.867
And you can stay in the conversation and that actually starts to build intimacy.

00:27:59.347 --> 00:28:02.867
That's the goal. Not to defeat each other. Not to prove who's right.

00:28:02.967 --> 00:28:06.407
It is not a right, wrong, black, white, all or nothing thing.

00:28:06.627 --> 00:28:09.007
That's a version of emotional immaturity.

00:28:09.567 --> 00:28:12.967
Emotional maturity is being able to stay connected without fusing,

00:28:13.287 --> 00:28:17.687
without backing down, without withdrawing, but still showing compassion and

00:28:17.687 --> 00:28:19.627
genuine curiosity, empathy, care.

00:28:20.347 --> 00:28:25.327
That is what builds emotional intimacy. To hold your own center while you're

00:28:25.327 --> 00:28:26.747
still reaching out toward theirs.

00:28:26.867 --> 00:28:29.607
I want to know you, but I also want you to really know me and understand where

00:28:29.607 --> 00:28:34.047
I'm coming from. So what these examples show, I think in those scenarios,

00:28:34.407 --> 00:28:35.507
the same pattern plays out.

00:28:35.747 --> 00:28:39.027
So first we got the fog, lever gets pulled, guilt about being a bad daughter,

00:28:39.427 --> 00:28:43.087
fear about a partner's reaction, obligation tied to the past sacrifices.

00:28:43.407 --> 00:28:46.307
And then now second, we got the Kaba need is underneath it.

00:28:46.387 --> 00:28:50.267
Approval from a lonely mom, control and attention from a stress partner,

00:28:50.387 --> 00:28:52.547
validation from a co-parent who feels unseen.

00:28:52.887 --> 00:28:55.207
And then third, the unhealthy response.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.640
Feeds the system, keeps it going the way it's going. Canceling plans,

00:28:59.860 --> 00:29:02.120
caving on boundaries, backing down from your own perspective.

00:29:02.360 --> 00:29:06.980
These responses may feel like they're keeping the peace, but they're actually

00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:08.760
teaching the other person that, hey, you know what?

00:29:08.860 --> 00:29:11.600
Your emotional pressure works and it will cause me to cave.

00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.140
And most likely we've been modeling that to the entire family system for who knows how long.

00:29:16.340 --> 00:29:21.820
And so it slowly erodes your own sense of self and it feeds the other person's anxiety.

00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:24.420
And then it models that to the rest of the family.

00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:29.560
And I really think then that differentiated response is the game changer.

00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:34.480
And again, it's not about winning, being right, dominating, but by staying grounded,

00:29:35.040 --> 00:29:38.520
by acknowledging the other person's feelings without being controlled by them,

00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.720
without being overwhelmed by them, without shutting down,

00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.720
without going too big, by saying what's true to you without needing them to

00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:47.780
agree. I would love it if they would understand.

00:29:48.300 --> 00:29:51.880
And that comes with genuine curiosity. But you can't even get there if you're

00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.880
not willing to express your genuine, true opinion.

00:29:55.420 --> 00:30:01.980
So that's the switch that flips, not in them. That isn't the goal to get them to switch.

00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:07.200
It's that switch that flips inside of you so that when you stop being emotionally

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.740
hijacked, when you stop handing over your steering wheel, something does shift.

00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:16.480
You may not change them, but you stop losing yourself and you give them a real

00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.080
chance to understand who you are.

00:30:18.080 --> 00:30:21.320
Now, the challenge is if they honestly don't know who they are,

00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:27.240
they're probably operating from a pretty reactive place and it has worked because you have caved.

00:30:27.460 --> 00:30:32.020
But when you can hold on to yourself and maintain space for their emotions,

00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:35.340
that's where the real freedom can begin. And that's where you can start to build

00:30:35.340 --> 00:30:37.180
genuine, true intimacy in the relationship.

00:30:38.095 --> 00:30:41.735
But it does take both people to really grow.

00:30:42.115 --> 00:30:45.175
Let me go back to where I think Chase Hughes and I do differ.

00:30:45.315 --> 00:30:48.735
So as much as I started feeling more open to what he was saying in this video,

00:30:48.935 --> 00:30:51.655
in particular, the Narcissistic Offs, which I love so much of the other things

00:30:51.655 --> 00:30:55.175
that I had listened to already, there was still something in me that wouldn't fully relax.

00:30:55.255 --> 00:30:59.275
Because while we were talking about the same storm, the same solar system,

00:30:59.435 --> 00:31:00.955
we weren't standing in the same part of it.

00:31:01.315 --> 00:31:04.535
Because I really think Chase looks at manipulation from the outside.

00:31:04.755 --> 00:31:07.835
He's studying tactics. He's mapping leverage. He's teaching people how to stay

00:31:07.835 --> 00:31:10.235
emotionally neutral so somebody can't push their buttons.

00:31:10.695 --> 00:31:14.675
And that is so helpful, especially in workplaces, friendships,

00:31:14.835 --> 00:31:17.495
or situations where you just need to protect yourself from somebody who's being

00:31:17.495 --> 00:31:18.795
controlling or passive aggressive.

00:31:19.195 --> 00:31:23.115
I started thinking about it and I think I'm looking at it from more of the inside

00:31:23.115 --> 00:31:27.335
because I sit with people who then go home to this, not who are interacting

00:31:27.335 --> 00:31:29.455
with it and then they get to leave, but they go home to this.

00:31:29.695 --> 00:31:33.715
I sit with people who sleep next to this or I sit with people who are emotionally

00:31:33.715 --> 00:31:36.875
bonded to somebody who has been confusing and invalidating, gaslighting,

00:31:36.975 --> 00:31:38.415
destabilizing them for years.

00:31:38.675 --> 00:31:42.255
Somebody that has said, I will change. I will do that. I hear you.

00:31:42.435 --> 00:31:45.695
I want this as well. And they don't do anything about it.

00:31:46.055 --> 00:31:50.535
In that room, something very different happens when you name manipulation or

00:31:50.535 --> 00:31:54.615
when you call out, well, why are you not doing something about it?

00:31:54.935 --> 00:31:58.935
That doesn't get met with, oh my gosh, you're right. It doesn't get met with self-confrontation.

00:31:59.055 --> 00:32:02.975
It gets met with the mouth sounds of co-regulation to then get rid of the discomfort.

00:32:03.275 --> 00:32:08.815
Oh, you think I'm bad? Well, you're the problem. Or it just is not a productive thing to do.

00:32:08.975 --> 00:32:11.175
Let me give you a couple of examples of this. Imagine a woman,

00:32:11.375 --> 00:32:13.395
we'll call her, we'll call her Ray.

00:32:13.755 --> 00:32:16.895
And Ray's been married to her husband, Kevin, for 15 years.

00:32:17.755 --> 00:32:20.675
Kevin is not a monster. He's not violent. He doesn't call her names.

00:32:20.795 --> 00:32:23.915
But over the years, Ray has learned that Kevin has a very hard time being wrong.

00:32:24.275 --> 00:32:28.555
Very hard time so when she brings up something that bothers her even gently

00:32:28.555 --> 00:32:31.555
even carefully even if she asks questions about his opinion.

00:32:32.432 --> 00:32:35.532
It almost always turns into a conversation about how she's too sensitive or

00:32:35.532 --> 00:32:39.532
how she's misremembering things or how he didn't mean it in that way.

00:32:39.672 --> 00:32:40.892
And she's making a big deal out of nothing.

00:32:41.052 --> 00:32:44.812
Ray starts reading, listen to podcasts, find some content online about emotional manipulation.

00:32:45.232 --> 00:32:49.672
And she learns about guilt tripping. She learns about fog and she thinks, well, I think this is it.

00:32:49.952 --> 00:32:53.952
If I can just name what's happening calmly, because this video says that,

00:32:54.052 --> 00:32:57.492
then I can point out that, hey, I think you're doing this. Maybe we can get somewhere.

00:32:58.112 --> 00:33:02.072
So one night Kevin's upset because Ray made plans with her sister on a Saturday.

00:33:02.432 --> 00:33:05.052
And he assumed that they were going to spend it together, but he didn't tell

00:33:05.052 --> 00:33:06.932
her that he had plans for them. He just assumed.

00:33:07.352 --> 00:33:10.892
So now that she's going to go do something for herself, he's cold.

00:33:11.632 --> 00:33:16.212
Lots of sighs, making comments like, okay, I guess I just thought we were the

00:33:16.212 --> 00:33:17.812
kind of couple who actually wanted to spend time together.

00:33:18.252 --> 00:33:22.052
So Ray takes a breath. She's been practicing this and she says as calmly as she can.

00:33:22.692 --> 00:33:26.972
Hey, it feels to me like you're trying to make me feel guilty for seeing my sister.

00:33:27.312 --> 00:33:30.152
For a split second, there's silence. And she thinks, oh my gosh,

00:33:30.252 --> 00:33:32.032
this might be it. Then...

00:33:32.550 --> 00:33:37.510
Kevin's face changes, not softer, but much more stern.

00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:42.410
Wow. He says, okay, so now I'm manipulating you. Is that what you think of me?

00:33:42.610 --> 00:33:47.150
I express one feeling one, and now I'm some kind of emotional abuser.

00:33:47.510 --> 00:33:50.610
You know what, Ray? Maybe the problem isn't me. Maybe the problem is that you've

00:33:50.610 --> 00:33:53.430
been reading too much garbage on the internet and you need to get off your phone

00:33:53.430 --> 00:33:55.490
anyway. And now you see everything I do is an attack.

00:33:55.950 --> 00:33:58.490
Now Ray's backpedaling. No, no, no. That's not what I meant.

00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:02.170
I was not calling you an abuser. I just, and he's like, oh, it doesn't matter.

00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:07.470
Yes, you did. At that point, the conversation is no longer about Saturday and

00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:12.650
her going out with her sister or heaven forbid Kevin not being able to take

00:34:12.650 --> 00:34:16.690
ownership of the fact that he didn't bring up the fact that he had planned on spending time with Ray.

00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:21.570
It's not about that. It's now about whether Ray is being unfair to Kevin by

00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:24.390
even naming what she felt by expressing her emotions.

00:34:24.870 --> 00:34:28.350
She spends the next hour trying to convince him that she does not think he's a bad person.

00:34:28.490 --> 00:34:33.610
She should never have said it anyway, while the original issue disappears completely.

00:34:33.910 --> 00:34:39.230
So that's what I mean when I say awareness doesn't land to the emotionally immature

00:34:39.230 --> 00:34:41.050
or narcissistic partner's insight.

00:34:41.890 --> 00:34:46.630
Ray said the right thing. She was calm. She used, I feel, language.

00:34:46.930 --> 00:34:48.590
But Kevin didn't hear feedback.

00:34:49.411 --> 00:34:54.311
Kevin heard an accusation. He heard criticism and his entire defense system

00:34:54.311 --> 00:34:56.471
mobilized to then attack.

00:34:56.871 --> 00:34:59.391
Here's another one. David's been with his partner, Michelle,

00:34:59.591 --> 00:35:02.791
for six, seven years, and Michelle is charming and intelligent and successful,

00:35:03.051 --> 00:35:06.771
but also very sensitive to any implication that she's done anything wrong.

00:35:07.151 --> 00:35:11.051
Kind of notice in a pattern. Over time, David has noticed that whenever he raises

00:35:11.051 --> 00:35:15.131
a concern, Michelle has a way of turning it around. So, David ends up apologizing.

00:35:15.571 --> 00:35:20.071
Now, David has been working with a therapist who specializes in the area and

00:35:20.071 --> 00:35:23.071
the therapist has been helping David understand the concepts of DARVO,

00:35:23.231 --> 00:35:25.271
deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.

00:35:25.991 --> 00:35:30.011
David's learned that he's allowed to name his experience without needing Michelle

00:35:30.011 --> 00:35:32.951
to agree with it. So he decides to try something new.

00:35:33.291 --> 00:35:36.491
One evening, Michelle's venting about a colleague at work, which is fine.

00:35:36.631 --> 00:35:37.731
David's always open for that.

00:35:38.271 --> 00:35:42.011
David listens for a little while and then he says, hey, you know what was crazy?

00:35:42.151 --> 00:35:43.311
I had a pretty hard day today too.

00:35:43.911 --> 00:35:48.411
And Michelle barely even acknowledges him and she just looks at him and then

00:35:48.411 --> 00:35:49.691
just keeps talking about herself.

00:35:50.351 --> 00:35:54.091
Later, David brings it up again, very gently. At this point,

00:35:54.171 --> 00:35:57.871
Michelle rolls her eyes. She said, I was literally in the middle of a story.

00:35:58.451 --> 00:36:01.871
And you can also see that I'm stressed, but sure. How about you make it about you, David?

00:36:02.851 --> 00:36:06.631
David's trying the new approach now. He says, hey, I'm noticing that when I

00:36:06.631 --> 00:36:09.091
try to share something, it often gets redirected back to you.

00:36:09.191 --> 00:36:11.971
And I'm not saying that you're doing it on purpose, but I would love for us

00:36:11.971 --> 00:36:12.831
to be able to hear each other.

00:36:13.331 --> 00:36:15.551
And Michelle stares at him. What are you saying?

00:36:16.091 --> 00:36:18.991
You think I'm a narcissist? Is that what you're saying? That I don't care about you?

00:36:19.731 --> 00:36:23.891
After all the things I do for the relationship, you know that I essentially

00:36:23.891 --> 00:36:25.071
pay for this apartment, right?

00:36:25.431 --> 00:36:28.231
I planned your birthday. I sat with you for hours when your mom was sick,

00:36:28.251 --> 00:36:31.171
but now you're gonna say, oh, I don't listen to you.

00:36:31.451 --> 00:36:34.791
And now David is swimming upstream. He did not say any of those things.

00:36:34.971 --> 00:36:36.691
He didn't even call Michelle a narcissist.

00:36:36.991 --> 00:36:40.371
He didn't say Michelle doesn't care, but somehow the conversation shifted from,

00:36:40.591 --> 00:36:45.591
I would like to feel heard to, how dare you accuse me of being a bad partner? And the worst part.

00:36:46.269 --> 00:36:49.349
David, when he was sharing this with his therapist, he said,

00:36:49.589 --> 00:36:52.189
and of course, I start doubting myself. Maybe I'm being unfair.

00:36:52.529 --> 00:36:57.849
Maybe she does listen. And am I just too needy? Maybe bringing this up at all was a mistake.

00:36:58.309 --> 00:37:03.449
That's what happens sometimes when you name something in a system that can't tolerate being seen.

00:37:03.889 --> 00:37:07.409
The insight doesn't land. It gets absorbed into the other person's defense system

00:37:07.409 --> 00:37:09.709
and shot back at you in a completely different shape.

00:37:09.909 --> 00:37:12.909
And you leave the conversation more confused than when you started.

00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:15.589
And somehow, you're the one who's apologizing.

00:37:16.109 --> 00:37:20.149
So I realized that's more of the room that I sit in. And that's why I get,

00:37:20.169 --> 00:37:25.529
I want to say nervous when somebody promises that a calm sentence can,

00:37:25.629 --> 00:37:27.169
quote, turn off a narcissist.

00:37:27.409 --> 00:37:31.889
In a workplace with a difficult coworker, maybe that can really make some ground.

00:37:32.209 --> 00:37:36.009
And a friendship that's maybe gotten a little bit one-sided, probably not a bad idea.

00:37:36.289 --> 00:37:39.569
But in those deeply bonded, long-term relationships where somebody has spent

00:37:39.569 --> 00:37:42.249
years learning to walk on eggshells as a survival mechanism,

00:37:42.249 --> 00:37:46.469
I'm afraid to say a script isn't going to save you because the other person's

00:37:46.469 --> 00:37:50.189
nervous system is not listening for the truth. It's listening for threat.

00:37:50.589 --> 00:37:55.269
And anything that sounds like you're being manipulative, it's a five alarm fire,

00:37:55.289 --> 00:37:58.869
no matter how gently you say it, no matter how kind your eyes look when you

00:37:58.869 --> 00:38:00.389
say it and how soft your tone is.

00:38:01.078 --> 00:38:05.898
Because in emotionally immature and narcissistic dynamics, awareness does not land as insight.

00:38:06.398 --> 00:38:09.778
When you try to bring awareness to them, it lands as exposure.

00:38:09.958 --> 00:38:11.678
And exposure is a threat.

00:38:11.978 --> 00:38:14.938
When you say something like, it feels like you're trying to make me feel guilty

00:38:14.938 --> 00:38:19.198
right now, that might sound calm and respectful to the emotionally mature and intelligent.

00:38:19.538 --> 00:38:23.198
But as somebody with a fragile sense of self, what they hear underneath that

00:38:23.198 --> 00:38:26.298
is, you're wrong, you're manipulative, you're not the good person that you think

00:38:26.298 --> 00:38:29.418
you are, and I'm right, and you're wrong. And then once that happens,

00:38:29.598 --> 00:38:32.518
the whole nervous system flips and the conversation is no longer about the schedule

00:38:32.518 --> 00:38:34.258
or the money or the tone or the boundary.

00:38:34.438 --> 00:38:39.458
It is about restoring their one-up position, their sense of superiority and safety and control.

00:38:39.758 --> 00:38:43.138
And that's when you'll see the familiar shift, denial, reversal,

00:38:43.418 --> 00:38:44.778
accusations, rewriting history.

00:38:45.138 --> 00:38:47.778
Suddenly you're the problem for bringing it up in the first place.

00:38:48.058 --> 00:38:51.978
And that's why I've spent years now telling people there is no sentence,

00:38:52.158 --> 00:38:56.578
no script, no perfectly delivered observation that will give the narcissistic

00:38:56.578 --> 00:38:58.278
or the very emotionally immature partner,

00:38:58.718 --> 00:39:03.118
their aha moment or their epiphany, they need to come upon that on their own.

00:39:03.258 --> 00:39:08.758
And it's not because you're saying it wrong, but it's because their system isn't built to receive it.

00:39:08.978 --> 00:39:13.278
And this is where I realized that's what my discomfort is with the concept of

00:39:13.278 --> 00:39:14.378
a narcissistic off switch.

00:39:14.718 --> 00:39:18.398
But again, love Chase Hughes. He's teaching people how to disarm manipulation.

00:39:18.758 --> 00:39:22.578
And I think I'm trying to teach people how to not lose themselves and feel like

00:39:22.578 --> 00:39:23.558
they are betraying themselves.

00:39:23.978 --> 00:39:26.818
Those really aren't the same thing. They can be really good friends.

00:39:27.618 --> 00:39:30.878
So disarming manipulation, I think is more about tactics in the moment.

00:39:31.138 --> 00:39:34.918
Not losing yourself is about who you become over time inside the relationship.

00:39:35.338 --> 00:39:38.558
In the kinds of relationships that I work with, people aren't just being manipulated.

00:39:38.718 --> 00:39:41.758
They're being slowly eroded and they're editing themselves and they're walking

00:39:41.758 --> 00:39:45.698
on eggshells and they're wrapping every truth in layers of kindness just to

00:39:45.698 --> 00:39:48.398
keep the peace to the point where they don't even know what their truth is.

00:39:48.798 --> 00:39:52.818
Trying to stay emotionally safe inside a system that will punish honesty is

00:39:52.818 --> 00:39:54.198
a waste of emotional calories.

00:39:54.438 --> 00:39:58.658
So when I hear somebody being encouraged to calmly label guilt tripping or name fear obligation.

00:39:59.575 --> 00:40:02.855
I don't worry that it won't work because it's not clever enough.

00:40:02.855 --> 00:40:08.115
I worry that it will work just enough to then give the narcissist the attack

00:40:08.115 --> 00:40:12.355
surface that they're looking for and then to use it against that person that's

00:40:12.355 --> 00:40:16.355
trying to bring this awareness to their own feelings or emotions because now

00:40:16.355 --> 00:40:17.175
they're still monitoring.

00:40:17.495 --> 00:40:19.775
They're still adjusting. They're still managing the other person's emotional

00:40:19.775 --> 00:40:22.355
state. They're still hoping that if they just say it right, the explosion won't happen.

00:40:22.775 --> 00:40:25.255
It's just a gussied up version of survival.

00:40:25.795 --> 00:40:29.915
Again, Chase is absolutely right that emotional neutrality and clarity,

00:40:29.915 --> 00:40:32.675
they do take away a manipulator's leverage.

00:40:32.895 --> 00:40:36.795
But I think that I can also say, and this is hopefully some nice emotionally

00:40:36.795 --> 00:40:40.215
mature language as well, that he is absolutely correct, as am I,

00:40:40.375 --> 00:40:44.515
and that a narcissistic system in that context being right doesn't mean you're safe.

00:40:44.655 --> 00:40:48.775
So the part that surprised me the most wasn't then where Chase and I disagreed.

00:40:48.895 --> 00:40:52.695
It was then where I found myself more or less starting to quietly soften.

00:40:52.695 --> 00:40:57.535
Because once I got past all the concepts around the off switch,

00:40:57.755 --> 00:40:59.015
I realized something important.

00:40:59.415 --> 00:41:03.035
I believe he's selling containment. He's teaching people how to not get pulled

00:41:03.035 --> 00:41:05.955
into the emotional gravity of somebody trying to control, pressurize,

00:41:06.035 --> 00:41:08.435
or destabilize them by using the fear, obligation, or guilt.

00:41:08.675 --> 00:41:12.475
So then when I started looking at his tools, the pause, love it,

00:41:12.615 --> 00:41:15.875
the silence, the neutral labeling, the refusal to emotionally react,

00:41:16.175 --> 00:41:18.155
the reframing, now we're back.

00:41:18.495 --> 00:41:22.875
Now I have to omit something to myself, that is a nice way to set some boundaries.

00:41:23.435 --> 00:41:27.595
But it's also not the end of the journey. I mean, now you're just starting to get rolling.

00:41:27.835 --> 00:41:32.015
So when Chase tells people to pause before responding, he's teaching nervous system regulation.

00:41:32.875 --> 00:41:35.795
When he tells people to calmly name guilt or fear, he's teaching awareness.

00:41:36.075 --> 00:41:39.415
When he tells people not to rush, not to defend, not to emotionally engage,

00:41:39.655 --> 00:41:42.015
he's teaching detachment from your reactivity.

00:41:42.455 --> 00:41:45.015
That is absolutely what I want for people as well.

00:41:45.515 --> 00:41:49.355
But I think I just have to set the table for a little bit longer with the people

00:41:49.355 --> 00:41:53.115
that I'm talking to. And I might need to take them a little bit further down that road.

00:41:53.595 --> 00:41:58.295
Because these tools will never create emotional maturity in the other person.

00:41:58.435 --> 00:42:01.635
And I did use the word never intentionally because I don't believe it will.

00:42:02.075 --> 00:42:05.995
But they do start to create space for you and spaces where something really

00:42:05.995 --> 00:42:09.195
important can start to show up your clarity, your sanity.

00:42:09.635 --> 00:42:13.835
So then it seemed to me now that I stopped hearing Chase as somebody promising,

00:42:13.995 --> 00:42:15.135
say this, and they'll finally get it.

00:42:15.235 --> 00:42:18.055
And I started hearing that narcissistic off switch as somebody saying,

00:42:18.475 --> 00:42:20.175
Hey, don't let their tactics hijack you.

00:42:20.255 --> 00:42:23.375
And here's another tool that you can use along with my good friend,

00:42:23.495 --> 00:42:25.315
Tony, somebody get that message to chase.

00:42:26.035 --> 00:42:29.955
That's something that I can get behind because what I'm teaching more of is differentiation.

00:42:30.575 --> 00:42:33.895
It's a concept that three and a half, four years ago, I knew nothing about.

00:42:34.035 --> 00:42:39.395
And now it is so important in the work I do as an individual human being and

00:42:39.395 --> 00:42:43.335
in the mental health world, and especially as a couples therapist.

00:42:43.995 --> 00:42:48.475
It's becoming so grounded in who you are. You don't need the other person to

00:42:48.475 --> 00:42:53.555
validate or understand or approve of you for you to know what's okay or what's true.

00:42:53.995 --> 00:42:57.235
Chase Hughes is teaching people how to take the first step toward that by not

00:42:57.235 --> 00:42:59.555
emotionally feeding the system that keeps them stuck.

00:42:59.955 --> 00:43:03.575
Again, different, different altitudes, same mountain. I don't believe that there

00:43:03.575 --> 00:43:04.895
is a narcissistic off switch.

00:43:05.075 --> 00:43:08.935
There's no sentence that magically turns somebody else's defenses or shame or need for control.

00:43:09.115 --> 00:43:15.675
I cannot state enough that what this has really helped me understand is even more.

00:43:16.115 --> 00:43:20.015
There is a switch that turns on inside of you when you stop being emotionally

00:43:20.015 --> 00:43:23.855
pulled around. And if Chase's work helps people flip that switch sooner,

00:43:24.115 --> 00:43:25.715
even a little bit, I love it.

00:43:25.935 --> 00:43:29.735
Let me wrap this thing up with a couple more examples. And let's talk about

00:43:29.735 --> 00:43:31.555
the difference between tactics and then differentiation.

00:43:32.740 --> 00:43:35.400
I think it's helpful to watch these things play out in real time.

00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:38.760
So let's say your partner looks at you and says, I don't think you're very trustworthy.

00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:43.460
First, I would just love to talk about what's probably happening underneath

00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:45.800
that accusation. Let's talk about projection.

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:49.840
Projection is when somebody can't tolerate something inside of themselves.

00:43:50.140 --> 00:43:52.720
Fear, guilt, shame, dishonesty, insecurity.

00:43:53.060 --> 00:43:57.740
A lot of times their nervous system relocates it outside of them and into you.

00:43:57.860 --> 00:43:59.640
And then they can attack it.

00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:04.220
So instead of thinking, I feel unsafe or unsure or guilty, sometimes their nervous

00:44:04.220 --> 00:44:07.740
system says, oh, you're unsafe. You're untrustworthy.

00:44:08.260 --> 00:44:12.720
It's not that it's a conscious lie, but it is a bit of an emotional reflex.

00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:17.560
I love the work of David Schnarch when it comes to the concepts around differentiation.

00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:20.840
And Schnarch would say this comes from a fragile, reflected sense of self,

00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:26.040
that we need to see ourselves as good, right, loyal, or justified.

00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:30.800
So when something threatens that self-image, the discomfort has to go somewhere,

00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.680
especially if you don't know what to do with it.

00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:35.360
You can't sit with it. You don't have practice in doing so.

00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:41.400
So it's going to land on the person that is being interacted with by the immature narcissist.

00:44:41.680 --> 00:44:44.360
So when somebody in an emotionally immature narcissistic system says,

00:44:44.500 --> 00:44:46.060
I really don't think you're trustworthy.

00:44:46.060 --> 00:44:49.880
What they're often really saying is I don't feel secure or I'm afraid,

00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:53.520
or I'm hiding something actually, or I don't actually trust my own reactions,

00:44:53.520 --> 00:44:57.540
or I feel out of control, or I think everyone does this.

00:44:58.297 --> 00:45:01.557
But they experience it as, and so that must be your fault.

00:45:01.997 --> 00:45:05.857
One example might be a partner who is secretly texting somebody else,

00:45:05.877 --> 00:45:08.937
and they become very hypervigilant about your phone.

00:45:09.077 --> 00:45:13.257
So suddenly, you are the one that they are accusing of being suspicious.

00:45:13.537 --> 00:45:18.097
They start accusing you of hiding things. They're projecting their betrayal anxiety outward.

00:45:18.517 --> 00:45:22.317
Or another example, a partner who depends on you for emotional stability,

00:45:22.317 --> 00:45:25.397
they may start feeling anxious when you become more independent.

00:45:25.617 --> 00:45:29.217
So instead of saying, man, I feel kind of scared that you don't seem to need

00:45:29.217 --> 00:45:31.817
me anymore. They say, I don't trust you anymore.

00:45:32.037 --> 00:45:35.797
So they're projecting their fear of abandonment onto you, onto your character.

00:45:36.117 --> 00:45:41.237
So that's, that's projection, moving their inner distress into these outer accusations.

00:45:41.237 --> 00:45:45.177
Now you're defending something that I do not even know what I'm supposed to defend.

00:45:45.457 --> 00:45:48.297
And then what happens if you defend yourself? So then they say,

00:45:48.417 --> 00:45:49.057
you're not trustworthy.

00:45:49.257 --> 00:45:52.317
Your nervous system reacts instantly, especially because most likely that's

00:45:52.317 --> 00:45:54.417
something that you work hard to be is trustworthy.

00:45:54.717 --> 00:45:58.677
So then you feel shock and anger and panic and shame. And what does that do?

00:45:58.857 --> 00:46:02.397
It causes you to want to explain and defend and clarify and prove.

00:46:02.537 --> 00:46:06.057
So you say something like, what are you talking about? I don't, I'm not lied to you.

00:46:06.257 --> 00:46:09.817
I'm, I tell you everything. So this feels like an attack feels pretty ridiculous.

00:46:10.397 --> 00:46:16.477
But now the traps have been set because now you're defending a claim you don't even understand.

00:46:16.897 --> 00:46:21.597
And here's the emotionally immature logic running underneath that person saying,

00:46:21.597 --> 00:46:24.317
if I feel it, it must be true. That's the core of emotional maturity.

00:46:24.577 --> 00:46:27.277
They don't say, I feel uneasy and I don't know why. They say,

00:46:27.497 --> 00:46:29.477
you're not trustworthy. I feel like that's the case.

00:46:29.617 --> 00:46:32.997
So therefore it's true. So now you need to defend yourself about my claim to

00:46:32.997 --> 00:46:35.757
you, even though I just don't feel good about myself.

00:46:36.377 --> 00:46:40.457
Now you're forced into essentially a courtroom where they don't even need evidence

00:46:40.457 --> 00:46:44.037
and you don't know the charges and their feelings are the judge.

00:46:44.337 --> 00:46:48.497
You're now trying to prove innocence against a projection. And I am so sorry,

00:46:48.677 --> 00:46:50.337
but that does not typically end well.

00:46:50.657 --> 00:46:54.177
So what does differentiation look like in that moment? This is where Schnarch

00:46:54.177 --> 00:46:58.257
has these four points of balance. And I think that these are the things to spend some time with.

00:46:58.537 --> 00:47:01.397
Let me walk you through each one with this exact accusation.

00:47:01.517 --> 00:47:04.277
So part one, he says you need to have a solid and flexible sense of self.

00:47:04.277 --> 00:47:08.077
So this means knowing who you are without needing somebody else to tell you

00:47:08.077 --> 00:47:10.797
instead of thinking, oh, no, do they think I'm a bad person?

00:47:11.217 --> 00:47:15.897
You get to quietly say inside this exchange allows me to do a quick check in.

00:47:16.117 --> 00:47:20.297
And am I being a bad person because I know who I am?

00:47:20.577 --> 00:47:25.617
It doesn't mean you're perfect. And it doesn't mean that you wouldn't love that validation.

00:47:25.637 --> 00:47:30.497
I think that gets a negative connotation these days that we all get our sense

00:47:30.497 --> 00:47:32.537
of self from external validation growing up.

00:47:33.097 --> 00:47:35.937
But then at some point, then now I will take it from here.

00:47:36.737 --> 00:47:39.377
The training wheels are off and I need to figure out who I am.

00:47:39.597 --> 00:47:43.877
So when somebody says, I don't like this about you, rather than get reactive and defensive,

00:47:44.097 --> 00:47:48.257
we get to say, oh, I appreciate you bringing this thing up because this gives

00:47:48.257 --> 00:47:51.737
me a chance to look inward and say, is there truth in what you're saying? If there is, thank you.

00:47:52.277 --> 00:47:56.817
And I can work on this. It's something that I want to get rid of or to heal.

00:47:56.977 --> 00:48:02.017
But you also can say, thank you for sharing that because I know that that's

00:48:02.017 --> 00:48:06.277
not who I am. If they say you're not trustworthy, your internal response gets

00:48:06.277 --> 00:48:09.677
to be, hey, that's your experience, but it's not my identity.

00:48:09.937 --> 00:48:12.577
Now, I can even say, well, tell me more. Help me understand what you're seeing.

00:48:12.957 --> 00:48:16.657
But you don't instantly accept it. But you also don't have to instantly reject

00:48:16.657 --> 00:48:20.017
it. You just don't let it define you. That's on this road to differentiation.

00:48:20.717 --> 00:48:23.457
Schnarch has the second point of balance, quiet mind, calm heart,

00:48:23.537 --> 00:48:26.717
which means to self-soothe your anxiety instead of needing somebody else to

00:48:26.717 --> 00:48:31.117
fix it. Your body constantly wants to fight or prove or panic,

00:48:31.177 --> 00:48:34.877
or just let the person know this is not okay for them to say.

00:48:35.557 --> 00:48:39.037
Differentiation says, oh, I can hold this without exploding or collapsing.

00:48:39.037 --> 00:48:41.257
I can make space. So I breathe.

00:48:41.977 --> 00:48:46.097
I might even feel uncomfortable, but I don't rush to rescue my image.

00:48:46.677 --> 00:48:51.637
You're learning emotional autonomy. And then point three, Schnarr says, grounded responding.

00:48:51.817 --> 00:48:55.237
That means not overreacting, but also not withdrawing.

00:48:55.337 --> 00:48:59.137
So instead of how dare you, or I'll sit this one out, silent shutdown,

00:48:59.277 --> 00:49:01.237
you might say something like, man, that's a pretty strong statement,

00:49:01.237 --> 00:49:04.357
but help me understand what's making you feel that way. Not defensive,

00:49:04.557 --> 00:49:05.797
not submissive, but grounded.

00:49:06.237 --> 00:49:09.657
You're not accepting the accusation as I guess that's the truth,

00:49:09.697 --> 00:49:14.197
but you're also not fighting it, saying that's ridiculous, but you are holding your ground.

00:49:14.537 --> 00:49:18.197
And then his fourth point of balance, meaningful endurance. That means tolerating

00:49:18.197 --> 00:49:22.137
discomfort. Growth comes from discomfort and you'll take ownership of what's yours.

00:49:22.937 --> 00:49:28.377
This can actually be the hardest part because you're letting them be uncomfortable.

00:49:28.777 --> 00:49:32.197
You let them think what they think. You don't scramble to make it go away.

00:49:32.357 --> 00:49:34.437
And if there is something real underneath, you own it.

00:49:34.657 --> 00:49:38.237
If I've done something that made you feel unsafe, I want to hear it and I will

00:49:38.237 --> 00:49:39.577
apologize. I'll repair.

00:49:39.857 --> 00:49:42.497
I'll take ownership of that and I'll make meaningful effort to change.

00:49:42.997 --> 00:49:46.477
That's the self-validated intimacy being known without demanding approval.

00:49:46.637 --> 00:49:48.857
But if it's projection, you don't take it on.

00:49:49.257 --> 00:49:52.417
So what does differentiation really look like? They say you're not trustworthy.

00:49:52.477 --> 00:49:54.497
You don't say prove it or you're wrong.

00:49:54.857 --> 00:49:58.457
You say calmly and internally, well, I know who I am.

00:49:58.977 --> 00:50:03.697
So I can actually listen to this without losing myself. It's not being passive. It's being powerful.

00:50:03.997 --> 00:50:07.717
You are no longer emotionally fused to whatever it is that they're going to

00:50:07.717 --> 00:50:10.437
say that you are or whoever they say that you are.

00:50:10.657 --> 00:50:14.537
You're no longer defending a reflected self from them.

00:50:14.817 --> 00:50:18.517
You're no longer trying to negotiate your identity to prove to them that they

00:50:18.517 --> 00:50:20.697
need to understand what you mean and who you are.

00:50:21.389 --> 00:50:24.609
You're standing inside your four points of balance.

00:50:24.929 --> 00:50:28.229
And that's what can start to make manipulation stop working.

00:50:28.469 --> 00:50:33.029
You are no fun to the narcissist anymore. You don't give them narcissistic fuel or ammo.

00:50:33.769 --> 00:50:38.229
You're not a fun toy to play with anymore. And it's not because you out-talked

00:50:38.229 --> 00:50:41.589
it, but because you no longer own it. It doesn't own you.

00:50:41.869 --> 00:50:45.329
A couple other things I think are really interesting. This is what happens next.

00:50:45.549 --> 00:50:50.189
And it's where things even become more of a challenge. but the more of a challenge,

00:50:50.369 --> 00:50:52.509
the more opportunity there can be for true growth.

00:50:53.329 --> 00:50:56.709
Schnarch talks about a concept called gridlock, and that's where he describes

00:50:56.709 --> 00:51:00.429
a moment in a relationship where neither partner can get the other to change,

00:51:00.689 --> 00:51:05.729
and neither partner can emotionally validate themselves in the face of the other

00:51:05.729 --> 00:51:07.129
person's negative reactions.

00:51:07.789 --> 00:51:11.609
So that's exactly what starts happening when you become more differentiated,

00:51:11.709 --> 00:51:16.069
when you don't fold and just give in and play small and self-sacrifice.

00:51:16.609 --> 00:51:19.629
Before differentiation, you're You accommodate, you self-abandon,

00:51:19.689 --> 00:51:23.009
you explain, you shrink, you need them to know and understand and why can't they?

00:51:23.369 --> 00:51:26.889
But once you start holding your own center, once you stop over apologizing and

00:51:26.889 --> 00:51:31.349
stop editing yourself and stop chasing their reassurance, the relationship will often hit a wall.

00:51:31.909 --> 00:51:35.489
They still want you to soothe them, to collapse, to prove, to comply,

00:51:35.489 --> 00:51:38.429
and you're no longer willing to. So nothing moves.

00:51:38.589 --> 00:51:41.989
And that tension, that stuckness, that pain, that's gridlock.

00:51:42.589 --> 00:51:47.049
And at first, gridlock can feel awful because for the first time, you're not giving in.

00:51:48.062 --> 00:51:51.522
They're not changing either. And that's the exact moment where people go looking

00:51:51.522 --> 00:51:53.322
for tools like the off switch.

00:51:54.202 --> 00:51:57.822
Schnarch says that when you hit gridlock, the task then is no longer to fix

00:51:57.822 --> 00:52:02.742
the relationship, but the task is to take your unresolved personal issues out

00:52:02.742 --> 00:52:06.582
of that gridlock situation and now confront them as an act of integrity.

00:52:06.902 --> 00:52:10.642
It's what he calls constructing your crucible. And it is such a powerful tool.

00:52:11.022 --> 00:52:14.982
So that means you stop asking, how do I get them to change? and you start asking,

00:52:15.182 --> 00:52:18.842
who do I want to be in this moment, even if they never do?

00:52:19.222 --> 00:52:24.762
And this is where the off switch would suddenly become psychologically safe, but only here.

00:52:24.922 --> 00:52:29.242
This is why I wanted to stay in this conversation to get through to this part of the crucible.

00:52:29.822 --> 00:52:34.562
Because now you're not using it to control the outcome. You don't need them to understand.

00:52:35.022 --> 00:52:39.742
You're using it to stay in a place of integrity. And this is why I think outcome

00:52:39.742 --> 00:52:42.742
independence, that concept becomes everything.

00:52:42.742 --> 00:52:45.442
Because if you say it feels like you're trying to make me

00:52:45.442 --> 00:52:48.482
feel guilty and inside you're hoping they'll back down or admit

00:52:48.482 --> 00:52:51.462
it or understand or finally get it or have the aha moment

00:52:51.462 --> 00:52:54.542
you're not differentiated yet you're still fused to

00:52:54.542 --> 00:52:59.002
their response but if you get to this point and you've constructed your crucible

00:52:59.002 --> 00:53:02.942
and you say it because this is the truth of my experience and i'm willing to

00:53:02.942 --> 00:53:08.662
let you react however you want to react now it becomes crucible work now it's

00:53:08.662 --> 00:53:12.662
self-validated intimacy instead of manipulation or pleading or begging someone to understand.

00:53:13.342 --> 00:53:17.002
You're no longer saying it to change them. You're saying it because that's who

00:53:17.002 --> 00:53:19.202
you are, because you say those things.

00:53:19.542 --> 00:53:23.162
It's outcome independent. You say it because it's the right thing to say.

00:53:23.662 --> 00:53:27.522
That's what outcome independence actually means. You know you're not fully differentiated

00:53:27.522 --> 00:53:29.462
yet when you still feel rattled if they don't agree.

00:53:31.282 --> 00:53:36.642
Want to say, I promise you that this is a concept that I did not have a clue what it was.

00:53:37.142 --> 00:53:40.502
And then even as I started to understand the words or the concepts,

00:53:40.722 --> 00:53:46.662
there is nothing like when you finally embody it or feel it and you hold onto

00:53:46.662 --> 00:53:50.302
yourself, even when somebody else is trying to tell you what a piece of garbage you are.

00:53:50.422 --> 00:53:53.782
And you're like, man, tell me more about that. Cause I'm not, I'm okay.

00:53:54.502 --> 00:53:58.022
Because when they don't agree, when they still keep pushing buttons,

00:53:58.022 --> 00:54:03.382
If you continue to feel compelled to explain, then it's going to continue to

00:54:03.382 --> 00:54:06.642
feed your anxiety, especially when they dismiss you.

00:54:07.162 --> 00:54:11.002
When you feel invalidated, when they don't get it, is when you'll continue to

00:54:11.002 --> 00:54:14.042
try to get them to get it more, and they could do that all day.

00:54:14.362 --> 00:54:17.902
But that still tells you my sense of self is tied to their reflection of me.

00:54:18.202 --> 00:54:21.682
And that's that part that Schnarch is calling that reflected sense of self.

00:54:22.022 --> 00:54:24.742
So what did we learn today? Here's where I've landed on all this.

00:54:25.302 --> 00:54:27.442
Chase Hughes and I need to be friends.

00:54:28.202 --> 00:54:31.782
We're both trying to help people stop disappearing inside somebody else's emotional weather.

00:54:32.302 --> 00:54:35.262
We use a little bit different language. He talks in tactics.

00:54:35.302 --> 00:54:38.682
I talk in differentiation, but we're aiming at the same outcome,

00:54:38.862 --> 00:54:41.802
helping people stop handing their emotional steering wheel over to somebody

00:54:41.802 --> 00:54:43.422
who keeps yanking it over into the ditch.

00:54:43.882 --> 00:54:47.902
His work is so helpful for a lot of the first steps for learning to pause,

00:54:48.062 --> 00:54:49.702
for recognizing fog, for not taking the bait.

00:54:50.520 --> 00:54:55.100
And then if you want to change who you are and you feel even possibly stuck

00:54:55.100 --> 00:54:58.960
inside an emotionally mature narcissistic relationship, and you want to learn

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:03.500
not just to survive them, but to grow through them, to figure out who you are,

00:55:03.600 --> 00:55:04.640
even in that relationship,

00:55:04.900 --> 00:55:08.420
it's going to be a little bit more work, a lot more work, because you're going

00:55:08.420 --> 00:55:10.560
to have to confront your own need for validation.

00:55:11.160 --> 00:55:14.000
You have to build a self that doesn't depend on their approval,

00:55:14.020 --> 00:55:18.880
and you have to construct your crucible and hold yourself there until something transforms.

00:55:19.420 --> 00:55:24.600
That that transformation is happening inside of you. And that is no longer a

00:55:24.600 --> 00:55:26.400
tactic. That's your life's work.

00:55:26.820 --> 00:55:30.120
But it does start with exactly what Chase Hughes is teaching.

00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.840
The moment you stop being emotionally reactive, when you pause,

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:35.840
when you get curious, when you stop scrambling to defend or justify,

00:55:36.180 --> 00:55:38.900
the interaction does begin to change.

00:55:39.520 --> 00:55:42.740
The manipulator over time doesn't get the dopamine hit that they were expecting.

00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.040
And then that emotional leverage that they were counting on,

00:55:45.200 --> 00:55:49.520
it's gone. And they will push additional buttons to try to get you to fall back in line.

00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:53.340
You don't feel powerful though, because you dominated them. You start to feel

00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:55.420
powerful because you stayed you.

00:55:55.660 --> 00:55:59.060
And I'll tell you, you can't even be you if you don't know who you are.

00:55:59.240 --> 00:56:01.900
Kind of sounds a little bit like a no kidding old man.

00:56:02.120 --> 00:56:05.600
But when you are still trying to figure out how to get this person to like me,

00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:07.840
you truly don't know who you are yet.

00:56:07.980 --> 00:56:11.900
It's so cliched and it is so true. But if I do not fully love myself and know

00:56:11.900 --> 00:56:16.780
who I am, then I am continually trying to get someone else to love me and try

00:56:16.780 --> 00:56:19.940
to figure out how to do that. And that's where you're handing them too much of your power.

00:56:20.100 --> 00:56:24.100
What we talked about today will help you become more autonomous to help you understand who you are.

00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:30.740
And that will in turn benefit by providing you more stability and more nervous system regulation.

00:56:30.940 --> 00:56:38.040
And that leads to self-trust. And that in the end is exactly what I hope that you can gain from this.

00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:41.280
So thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:44.600
I would love to hear your feedback. If you have questions, comments,

00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:47.880
stories, you name it, send them to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.

00:56:48.140 --> 00:56:50.380
And I will see you next time on Waking Up.