Need to have your karma. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
It has been a little while and that has not been intentional.
First of all, I would love it if you would go follow me on all the social media
places at virtualcouch on TikTok, at virtual.couch on Instagram,
Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist.
And follow me on Substack, substack.com slash the virtual couch.
If you go to tonyoverbay.com, I would love it if you would sign up for the newsletter.
I have mentioned my magnetic marriage course update in the past,
but there is an announcement coming very, very soon that we'll have to do with a live version of that.
Stay tuned. Or if you get on Substack or if you get on the mailing list,
you'll be the first to know about that.
That will be an updated version of my magnetic marriage course. It's story time.
I want to say a week or two ago, but I think it's been a few weeks ago,
I recorded an episode about what no doubt you saw in the title of this episode,
the narcissistic off switch that I was genuinely ready to release. I had the idea.
I had the energy. I had edited it. I had show notes ready to go.
I was, I would say minutes from posting it.
And then I just, I just ran out of time and I had clients coming all day that day.
And I thought if I get a cancellation, then I'll throw it out there during the
day. And if not, I'll get it out later that night.
Then I got a text from somebody who asked me if I could come speak later that week at a conference.
And I would say as a card carry member of the ADHD fan club,
novelty, impulsivity can be the thing that I just, I can't turn away from new
city, new people, new room, microphone in front of me, a speaking engagement, a fee.
I was in, I was in before I even finished reading the text. And so side note,
if you're looking for a keynote speaker for your organization,
your conference, your church, I guess for the right price, kids or adults birthday
party, let me know, because that is one of the things that I love doing the most.
So I rearranged my schedule, I moved some clients around, I filled in all the
open spots, and in that shuffle, now I have this unreleased episode that just
sat there, just quietly waiting, becoming what now I will think of as a lost episode.
Somewhere, I want to say on a hard drive in my office, but in these days, it's up in the clouds.
It is now a rare artifact, almost like my own personal version of a lost Beatles recording.
Maybe one day my kids will sell it for millions of dollars, which is probably not the case.
Now, I am going to do a fair amount of setup here. So in hopes of keeping you
interested, let me just share with you what the concept of the narcissistic
off switch is, and then we're going to break it down.
It was sent to me through just a short audio clip.
Somebody had forwarded it to me
and found it fascinating enough that I listened to it a couple of times.
And then I said, technology be darned, I'm going to listen to it over and over
again and type it into my computer.
Because if I can hear it enough and see it enough on the screen,
then I think I'll ingest it because something resonated with this concept of
the narcissistic off switch. So here's what I typed out.
I'll go ahead and read this now. And then we'll come back to this in detail in just a little bit.
It's called the narcissistic off switch. It was how to disarm any narcissist.
The biggest method of all was to always think about what they are using to get out of you.
So if I'm in an argument, is somebody using fear, obligation,
or guilt? And that spells fog.
So am I going to get in trouble? Or can I recognize when somebody is using fear, obligation, and guilt?
And if somebody is doing any of those things, I want to call it out in a non-confrontational way.
Let's say that you give me some line about if you don't do this,
then I'm gonna have to work 19 hours extra this week.
But it's never about the hours, and now it's about guilt. So I can say to the
person, hey, I'm guessing you didn't mean to, but it sounded like you wanted
me to feel guilty about you working next week, and I know that you're a good
person. I don't think you meant it that way.
So I will absolutely call out any fear, obligation, or guilt,
but I'll call it out in a non-confrontational way that says,
hey, maybe you didn't mean it this way, but it sounded like this,
or that this is what you were saying.
And then it went on to say, in the art of war, which is a very popular book,
very old now, they say you need to give your opponent a golden bridge on which they can retreat.
So it sounds interesting, right? It tracks in a sense with a lot of the things
I talk about, but also there's some holes to be poked there that the narcissist
or the emotionally immature person in your life, if you, if you break down the
game film, then a lot of the conversations
that will resonate, that it will appear that they are using fear,
obligation, or guilt to try and get you into compliance or into that familiar
self-sacrificing, pathologically kind, one-down position.
And I was going to say, but however, I am attempting to reduce the amount of
butts said in 2026 and beyond.
And while it sounds interesting, this narcissistic off switch,
isn't it also still trying to give the other person a bit of an aha moment? Nay, even an epiphany.
So I put a big giant pen in it and I got back to my day-to-day,
occasionally bringing it up in a session with somebody that I thought might
also find it interesting, but honestly not with somebody who would immediately
take it and try to go use the concept without trying to understand it in more detail.
Now, in the middle of all the travel and rescheduling and trying to figure out
when can I get this podcast out, I stumbled upon a YouTube video by a guy named Chase Hughes.
And the title was You're Living Inside a Prediction.
Now, full honesty, which is the whole goal of today's episode,
that's not something I would normally click.
But I know at that time, I think I read the title wrong.
I think I read it as You're Living Inside a Projection, not a prediction.
And I am a little bit obsessed with the concepts of projection because it is
so fascinating once you see it.
How often we're projecting what I think you should do or how I think the world
works onto everyone around me. It didn't say projection. It said prediction.
The fact that I thought it said projection pulled me in.
And at that point, this video, not the narcissistic off switch,
but this video, this Chase Hughes video, it was fascinating, psychological.
I will link the video in the show notes, but here's what he started off with right out of the gate.
He says three facts about your
brain that are absolutely not up for debate at all. So already I'm in.
He says, fact number one, your brain is a prediction engine,
just about everything that you experience, your emotions, your reactions,
all of your decisions, what you decide to do, they're all filtered through whatever
your brain expects to happen next.
Now, I like that, the brain is a prediction engine.
That is from a book that I am drawing a blank on.
And I will leave this in. That is another thing of 2026. Let's be real. But it's in a book.
So factor two, your sense of identity is not a truth. It's a forecast.
Now he goes on to address that in great detail in this particular video.
And that part alone is worth the price of admission.
And he says fact number three, and he said, it's undeniable.
The brain does not experience time the way that clocks measure it.
So he said, if you take those three facts, prediction, identity,
forecasting, and time distortion, he said it will explain why most people's
lives stop changing after about the age of 25.
He said it's not because we run out of potential. Our brain decided, hey, we've seen enough.
This is who you are. Now, from that moment forward, he said the nervous system
acts like a bouncer and it only lets in the thoughts and the behaviors and opportunities
that match the established version of me.
Everything else gets kind of filtered out. So when somebody is talking about
how our brains constantly predict
reality and how those predictions shape what we see and how we behave.
I just thought, this is brilliant. This sounds a lot like the things that I
talk about, but from a different angle.
Then he guided the listener through a strange meditative, almost hypnotic exercise.
And I did it. Then I did it again. Then I started clicking more of his videos
and I realized, oh, this guy is really fascinating.
Now, full disclosure, my background deep dive on him was from Google and more
specifically their artificial intelligence, their AI summary of the Google search.
And here's what it gave me.
Chase Hughes is a leading U.S. military and intelligence behavior expert,
author, and consultant known for his work in behavioral profiling,
interrogation, and human intelligence.
And I find most, if not all of those things, very, very fascinating.
I often watch interrogation videos because they are a psychological tapestry
on which to interact, to just learn so much about the human condition, about myself.
But then it says that he creates advanced behavior skills courses used by government
and law enforcement stemming from his background in the US Navy and his education
at Missouri Military Academy.
He's recognized for his expertise and understanding real human behavior,
including hidden fears, which is interesting because they're hiding, and self-deception.
Just for fun. I can honestly say that I have never AI Google searched myself.
If I am to believe what the internet's told me about Chase Hughes,
then I thought we would see what it says about yours truly.
And also, as this is the beginning or the first waking up to narcissism episode
of 2026, I'm going to imagine there are some new people here.
Google's AI says Tony Overbay is a licensed marriage and family therapist,
checks out, motivational speaker and author based in Northern California.
Okay. So I was, and I have an office there, but not currently we moved.
He's widely recognized for his expertise and acceptance and commitment therapy or act.
Okay. That's kind of nice to see. And his work helping individuals and couples
navigate complex relational issues. Okay. I like that. I do.
Says he hosts the award-winning podcast, the virtual couch, where he provides
tools for breaking negative patterns and embracing authentic living.
He also hosts waking up to narcissism, which focuses on identifying and navigating
narcissistic traits in relationships.
So I would love it if the AI would pick up a little bit more on the concepts
around emotional immaturity, because I am not assuming that everyone is a narcissist.
And then the AI goes on to say, relationship coaching, Overbay developed the
Magnetize Your Marriage virtual workshop.
It's actually the Magnetic Marriage, and that's what we're rebooting here soon,
and is known for his four pillars of connected communication.
That's not bad. Four pillars of a connected conversation might be better.
Addiction Recovery, he founded the Path Back, an online recovery program specifically
designed to help individuals overcome a cornography addiction and compulsive
sexual behavior. Just trying to not get shadow banned as this will go on YouTube eventually.
Authorship, he's the co-author of He's a Corn Addict, Now What?
Expert and a Former Addict, Answer Your Questions, which addresses recovery
from the perspective of both an expert and a former addict.
And fun fact, that book has been out now for four or five years,
and I get a monthly newsletter from my publisher that shows that it is still
showing up in the top 100 in sexual health and recovery, along with my co-author Joshua Shea.
Okay, this is kind of fun. It says career pivot before becoming a therapist
over base spent a decade as a software executive and an entrepreneur.
I did not know this next start. I mean, I know it because it was part of my
life, but I didn't know that this was out there.
It says after a near fatal boating accident in his youth that severely damaged
his legs, he defied medical expectations by becoming an ultra marathon runner,
completing over 200 races of marathon distance or longer.
I did get run over by a boat after my senior year and I have the scars to prove
it, even though that was 30 something years ago, but that's a little dramatic
saying that I defy the odds.
I was never told that I would never walk again or anything like that,
although that would make a much better story.
Personal life as of 2026, he's been married to his wife, Wendy,
for 33 years. I think the math's off there. I think we're at 35 and has four children that tracks.
But now fast forward to the day after the conference, it went really well. I had such a good time.
I'm driving home from the airport, a little tired, a little wired,
still mentally unpacking what I'd just done.
And I was listening to another one of Chase Hughes videos and it ends.
And so then YouTube auto plays the next recommendation.
Drum roll dramatic theme and the title pops up
the narcissistic off switch i could hear the dramatic music off of the distance
as if it were in my neighborhood the dun dun dun because i actually had no idea
chase hughes was the person behind the concept in the video of the narcissistic
off switch the only version i'd ever seen was the aforementioned clip that somebody sent me,
and it had intrigued me but it also felt too neat too tidy too simple for the
kind of relationships that I see every day in my therapy office.
So my entire unreleased episode was essentially me saying, this sounds good,
but I don't think that it works the way that people hope that it does.
And now here I was sitting in my driveway, listening to the full version from
the person who actually created it.
Something interesting shifted inside. And this is why I think this is as much
of the story as what we're going to talk about with the concepts of the narcissistic off switch.
Taking ownership and accountability of things. because I found myself far more
open, not because the concept had changed because it was still the same words that I was reading.
Now, because the person behind the words had changed,
because I had just spent hours over the last few days listening to Chase Hughes
talk about human behavior and about nervous systems and our brains and prediction
engines and emotional dynamics in ways that they really connected with me.
I was beginning to trust his way of thinking. And suddenly I realized something
I think is really fascinating.
And I think it's part of being a human that I realized I was more willing to
give the idea, the benefit of the doubt, because now I trusted more who it came from.
So we'd like to think that we evaluate ideas objectively, but I don't think we do.
I think we evaluate most things relationally, that we decide whether something
feels true based not just on the words, but on who's saying them and how we interpret that person,
not just their words, but a lot of things about them, how they've shown up elsewhere,
or whether our nervous system feels safe with that person.
And I'm really grateful for that this conference, somebody said that they actually
found my voice comforting.
And I thought that was really fascinating because I still hear my voice is this
somewhat nasally drone, yet I just had recorded a meditation track.
And when this person mentioned that, I told them that if they were open to it,
I would send them this meditation track. Note to self, I still have not done that.
But at some point, I would like to make that meditation track available to others.
So now back to knowing that this content was from Chase Hughes.
It had not changed my core values. I had not abandoned my clinical experience,
but I could feel myself saying, okay,
maybe I need to slow down and really understand now what the guy means before
I decide what I think about this narcissistic off switch in general,
because I just recorded this episode that probably would not have made him much of a fan.
And it is not that I wanted to rerecord something because I want him to like me.
Now that I took it in in a much greater context, I do. I have a different opinion.
But then even better, it's not an all or nothing or black or white thing.
It's not that now I'm saying, you know what? Game on, fellas.
I take it all back. Tell the narcissist what they're doing wrong because heck, you never know.
No, not at all. I'm not saying that at all. So while someday it might be fun
to release this B-side the lost track, today you're going to get an episode
recorded by somebody who now let curiosity do its job.
So once I sat down and I listened to Chase's full breakdown of the narcissistic
off switch, something surprising happened.
The more I listened, the more I realized, okay, we're not actually talking about
two different planets. We're talking about the same solar system,
but from different places within it. I need a better metaphor,
but I think you know what I'm saying.
Because when you strip away at the dramatic YouTube titles and the marketing
language, he's not promising emotional intimacy or healing or their aha moment
or even mutual understanding.
He's not saying, if you say this sentence, your narcissistic partner will suddenly
wake up, apologize, and book therapy, which there are content creators who say those things.
I think they are doing far more harm than good. But I think what he's really
teaching is how to stop being emotionally hijacked.
So he starts with this framework called FOG, fear, obligation,
and guilt. and I love a good acronym.
And he says that manipulators lean on one of those three levers to get what they want.
I do know that once I was aware of that acronym, fear, obligation,
and guilt, you do see it a lot of places.
If we go from this place of, I don't even know what I don't know to now I know,
but I don't even necessarily know what to do about it.
Then eventually I'll know what to do with it more than I don't.
And then at some point I just will become whatever that is I meant to become
now that I have that knowledge.
One of those three levers that they're going to So when you feel suddenly afraid
or pressured or guilty, you're probably being pushed somewhere you didn't choose
to go, a.k.a. manipulated.
Then he adds another layer, and this is something that I did not know from the
short audio clip that I had received.
He calls it kava, control, approval, validation, and attention.
So control, approval, validation, and attention, which is what the manipulative
person is actually after by using fear, obligation, and guilt.
So when I heard that, I thought, okay, that even makes more sense because I
do. I see that every day in my office.
It appears that what he's really saying is that if you can slow the moment down,
notice the emotional lever being pulled and then refuse to take the bait,
you may be able to stay more grounded or regain your footing.
You won't necessarily have to scream and try to explain yourself for 20 minutes.
You don't have to prove that you're right.
You just don't give them the emotional fuel that they're trying to siphon from you.
When I talk about me things and them things, I'm doing similar work.
If their reaction is a them thing, then my thoughts and my feelings are me things.
And that's not me saying that in a passive way.
That would be more of your own agency. Are you taking control of your emotions in that moment?
It's hopefully refusing to let somebody else's emotional storm then become your
nervous system's job to manage.
So when I talk about awareness being for you, not something you need the other person to agree with.
Now, again, it would be wonderful if they took the time to try to understand,
but ultimately that's a you thing.
And I think that's what Chase was pointing toward when he says that anything
brought into the light calmly loses power. I like that.
I don't now think that he was trying to teach people how to change narcissists,
but teaching more how for you to not be changed by them.
I have some examples of this, and these are ripped from real client stories.
I have put a few stories together, changed some of the details to protect confidentiality.
I tried to find some examples that touched on some of these concepts of fog
or kava. So let me give you the setup.
Sarah's mom calls three weeks before Thanksgiving. And Sarah and her husband,
Mike, have already made plans to spend the holiday with Mike's family this year
because they alternated last year and it's their turn to do that this year.
So Sarah mentions this to her mom. She had actually mentioned it months ago.
And her mom said, that's fine, honey. And the conversation moved on.
No worries. Now, the phone rings and Sarah's mom says, I just wanted to let
you know. Her mom said her voice a little soft, a little shaky.
And I understand that you're going to Mike's family this year.
I get it. I just at the doctor yesterday and they're running some tests. It's probably nothing.
I didn't want to worry you, but I was just sitting in that waiting room alone.
And I just kept thinking, what if this is the last Thanksgiving?
What if something really is wrong and you're not even going to be here?
And then there's a long pause. And then Sarah's mom said, but don't change your
plans for me. I don't want to be a burden.
I'll be fine. I'm sure I'll figure something out. Maybe I'll just volunteer
at the church if I can get out of my chair that day. But I just got to keep busy.
What's actually happening? We slow that thing way down. The fog lever here is
guilt, not fear, not even obligation. You could start making an argument there, but guilt.
Her mom isn't saying, you have to come. She's not issuing a command.
She's doing something a little more sophisticated.
She's painting a picture of herself alone, possibly sick, abandoned,
while Sarah is off enjoying herself with another family. Oh, the horror.
And here's the thing. That picture, it might even be partly true.
Her mom could even be really scared. She might feel lonely.
But the way that she's delivering the information is designed,
and I am saying this is bless her heart consciously or not, to make Sarah feel
like a bad daughter for having boundaries and for not immediately running there to take care of her mom.
The Kava piece, it's approval and attention that her mom wants to be chosen, which I get.
She wants Sarah to say, you're more important and I'll be there.
And I find this often in the couple's dynamic.
She wants to feel like she matters more than Mike's family. And so she's using
guilt to try to get that reassurance.
So the unhealthy response, let's go through that first. Sarah hangs up the phone,
immediately feels her chest tightened.
She's already running the math in her head. What if something is really wrong?
And what if she dies? And this is the last Thanksgiving and we could have had
it together. I'll never forgive myself.
What, I'm eating turkey with Mike's aunt? And then I find that out.
So she calls Mike. Hey, I think we need to change our plans.
Now, Mike, understandably, is a little irritated. He pushes back.
Said, yeah, we've had this plan for months. Your mom does this kind of every year.
Now, Sarah's caught between two people's disappointment. So,
she spends the next three weeks anxious, resentful, and emotionally exhausted.
So, now in her mind, it feels like she either caves and goes to her mom's feeling
angry at herself for folding, or she sticks with the original plan,
spends the holiday racked with guilt, checking her phone constantly, unable to be present.
So, either way, her mom's emotional storm became Sarah's nervous system's job
to manage and that's enmeshment that's fusion.
And that's what it looks like when you feel like your only choice is to take that bait.
So let's look at what the differentiated response would be. So if I rewind that
scenario, same phone call, same guilt lever being pulled. But this time,
Sarah pauses before she responds.
Now, she feels the guilt rising in her chest. Absolutely.
And she can even name it internally. Okay, I'm noticing I'm feeling guilty.
I'm being invited to feel like a bad daughter right now.
She doesn't argue. She doesn't defend. She doesn't explain why.
It's fair that she's going to Mike's family, she just simply says,
man, mom, that sounds really scary.
I'm so sorry that you're dealing with that. What did the doctor say about the next steps?
So she brings it back to the actual content, the medical concern without getting
pulled into the emotional, what the undertow of the, you're abandoning me.
And if her mom keeps circling back to Thanksgiving, then Sarah might say,
I can hear that you're disappointed. And that makes a lot of sense.
And I'm still going to be at Mike's family's this year, but I would love to
plan done something with you the weekend after we get home. Maybe just the two of us.
Notice what she did not do. She didn't say, stop guilt tripping me or she didn't
get defensive. She didn't over explain. She didn't play small. She didn't just fold.
She acknowledged her mom's feelings. She held onto her autonomy,
her own boundary, and even offered connection on terms that'll work for her.
And I think that's one of those things that is so fascinating is when you say,
I may not be able to do it at this point at this time, but I would love to find another time.
I get to watch that happen in my office often where somebody says no it's no
big deal if we can't do thanksgiving then i don't know if i want to do it at
all that's emotional immaturity but if it's a oh i hadn't even thought about
that yeah when you guys get back let's get together that's finding a solution
and that's where you start seeing this internal switch flip
not because her mom changed but because sarah stopped letting her mom's emotional
weather determine her own let me do another example this is one about parenting
marcus and his wife jen they have a 12-year-old son, Tyler. Tyler has wanted
to quit soccer for quite a while.
He's been playing for six years, but this season he's miserable.
He doesn't want to go to practice. He dreads games.
And he had recently told his dad that he wants to try theater instead.
Marcus thinks they should let Tyler quit. The kid gave it a good run.
It's not bringing him joy anymore. He's been doing it for a long time.
But when Marcus brings that up to Jen, she has a very, very different reaction.
We can't let him quit, she said. That teaches him that when things get hard.
You just walk away. That's not how we're raising him. And Marcus says, okay, I hear you.
He's been doing it for six years. I don't really think that we could put this
in the giving up category, but I think he's ready for something else.
And I'm kind of glad that he feels like he can advocate for himself.
But Jen's face hardens. Oh, so I'm the bad guy. I'm the strict parent.
You're the fun one who just lets him do whatever he wants. You're the Disneyland dad.
You know, I'm the one that takes him to every practice, don't you?
I'm the one who rearranged my entire schedule for this. And now you're going
to undermine me in front of him.
And Marcus tries again. So I'm not trying to undermine you. And she's like, no, you already did.
You probably already told him that he can quit, but I have to go ask mom,
didn't you? So now I am the villain.
So what's actually happening. The fog lever is obligation.
Jen's framing this as almost like a debt that Marcus owes her.
For all the driving and all the schedule rearranging and all the invisible labor
that she's put into Tyler's soccer career.
If Marcus sides with Tyler, he's not just disagreeing with her parenting philosophy,
but he's essentially telling her that her sacrifice doesn't matter.
There's also a layer of guilt here. Oh, so I'm the bad guy.
You know, that's an invitation for Marcus to reassure her that,
no, no, you're not the bad guy. You're a good mom. He didn't mean it. He's so sorry.
And then the Kava piece, I would say would be validation. Jen doesn't want Marcus
to agree with her decision.
She wants him to affirm that her approach is right, that her values are the
correct ones, that her sacrifices are worth it, that he is not doing as much
as she is, that she's right and he's wrong. So it isn't about soccer anymore at that point.
It's about whether or not Marcus sees her and respects what she's given.
So let's look at the unhealthy version of that response.
Marcus immediately backs down. No, you're not the bad guy. I didn't mean it
like that. I'm so sorry. And he drops the subject.
Tyler keeps playing soccer. Everybody's pretty miserable at that point.
Tyler, because he's doing something that he does not like. And he had the courage
to try to say, can I do something different that I actually want to try?
Marcus, because he caved and Jen, because she got compliance,
but not actual agreement.
And she wishes nothing would have even been brought up at all.
Why did they even have to do that?
So the next time a parenting decision comes up, Marcus is going to hesitate
to share his real opinion because he's now learning that disagreeing with Jen,
it means a fight, not about the topic, but about his loyalty,
her sacrifices, who's being undermined.
And so then he starts editing himself.
He stops advocating for what he actually thinks. And slowly,
he becomes a co-parent in name only.
So what would the differentiated response look like? If you look at that same
conversation, same obligation lever, but this time Marcus doesn't rush to reassure.
He's able to pause, step back, take a breath. And he says, man,
I can see that this really feels important to you. And I don't think you're the bad guy.
But I do, I think we just see this differently. So can we talk about what's
actually best for Tyler?
And Jen pushes, oh, you're still not hearing me. I'm the one who,
and Marcus gently, but firmly hears her, holds the line.
No, I hear you. And I appreciate that you put a lot into this.
That's real. And I'm really grateful.
And I think we can still make a different decision without that,
meaning your effort didn't matter.
So he's not dismissing her feelings. He's not telling her that she's wrong to
feel what she feels, but he's also not collapsing just because she's upset.
He's holding what I'm calling this masculine frame. He's staying in his lane.
He's acknowledging her experience and he's still holding on to his perspective.
That's differentiation.
It does not mean he wins. It means they're actually now in a conversation instead
of some sort of hostage negotiation.
And if Jen can tolerate his differentiation, which at first she's going to say,
I don't like this version of you. She likes the one that will just comply or cave in.
But if she can let him have a different opinion without experiencing it as betrayal,
as her being criticized, they might actually get somewhere.
That's what emotional maturity starts to look like. You both can have your own
opinions and they can actually both be correct because they are what you are
thinking. They are your opinion.
And you can stay in the conversation and that actually starts to build intimacy.
That's the goal. Not to defeat each other. Not to prove who's right.
It is not a right, wrong, black, white, all or nothing thing.
That's a version of emotional immaturity.
Emotional maturity is being able to stay connected without fusing,
without backing down, without withdrawing, but still showing compassion and
genuine curiosity, empathy, care.
That is what builds emotional intimacy. To hold your own center while you're
still reaching out toward theirs.
I want to know you, but I also want you to really know me and understand where
I'm coming from. So what these examples show, I think in those scenarios,
the same pattern plays out.
So first we got the fog, lever gets pulled, guilt about being a bad daughter,
fear about a partner's reaction, obligation tied to the past sacrifices.
And then now second, we got the Kaba need is underneath it.
Approval from a lonely mom, control and attention from a stress partner,
validation from a co-parent who feels unseen.
And then third, the unhealthy response.
Feeds the system, keeps it going the way it's going. Canceling plans,
caving on boundaries, backing down from your own perspective.
These responses may feel like they're keeping the peace, but they're actually
teaching the other person that, hey, you know what?
Your emotional pressure works and it will cause me to cave.
And most likely we've been modeling that to the entire family system for who knows how long.
And so it slowly erodes your own sense of self and it feeds the other person's anxiety.
And then it models that to the rest of the family.
And I really think then that differentiated response is the game changer.
And again, it's not about winning, being right, dominating, but by staying grounded,
by acknowledging the other person's feelings without being controlled by them,
without being overwhelmed by them, without shutting down,
without going too big, by saying what's true to you without needing them to
agree. I would love it if they would understand.
And that comes with genuine curiosity. But you can't even get there if you're
not willing to express your genuine, true opinion.
So that's the switch that flips, not in them. That isn't the goal to get them to switch.
It's that switch that flips inside of you so that when you stop being emotionally
hijacked, when you stop handing over your steering wheel, something does shift.
You may not change them, but you stop losing yourself and you give them a real
chance to understand who you are.
Now, the challenge is if they honestly don't know who they are,
they're probably operating from a pretty reactive place and it has worked because you have caved.
But when you can hold on to yourself and maintain space for their emotions,
that's where the real freedom can begin. And that's where you can start to build
genuine, true intimacy in the relationship.
But it does take both people to really grow.
Let me go back to where I think Chase Hughes and I do differ.
So as much as I started feeling more open to what he was saying in this video,
in particular, the Narcissistic Offs, which I love so much of the other things
that I had listened to already, there was still something in me that wouldn't fully relax.
Because while we were talking about the same storm, the same solar system,
we weren't standing in the same part of it.
Because I really think Chase looks at manipulation from the outside.
He's studying tactics. He's mapping leverage. He's teaching people how to stay
emotionally neutral so somebody can't push their buttons.
And that is so helpful, especially in workplaces, friendships,
or situations where you just need to protect yourself from somebody who's being
controlling or passive aggressive.
I started thinking about it and I think I'm looking at it from more of the inside
because I sit with people who then go home to this, not who are interacting
with it and then they get to leave, but they go home to this.
I sit with people who sleep next to this or I sit with people who are emotionally
bonded to somebody who has been confusing and invalidating, gaslighting,
destabilizing them for years.
Somebody that has said, I will change. I will do that. I hear you.
I want this as well. And they don't do anything about it.
In that room, something very different happens when you name manipulation or
when you call out, well, why are you not doing something about it?
That doesn't get met with, oh my gosh, you're right. It doesn't get met with self-confrontation.
It gets met with the mouth sounds of co-regulation to then get rid of the discomfort.
Oh, you think I'm bad? Well, you're the problem. Or it just is not a productive thing to do.
Let me give you a couple of examples of this. Imagine a woman,
we'll call her, we'll call her Ray.
And Ray's been married to her husband, Kevin, for 15 years.
Kevin is not a monster. He's not violent. He doesn't call her names.
But over the years, Ray has learned that Kevin has a very hard time being wrong.
Very hard time so when she brings up something that bothers her even gently
even carefully even if she asks questions about his opinion.
It almost always turns into a conversation about how she's too sensitive or
how she's misremembering things or how he didn't mean it in that way.
And she's making a big deal out of nothing.
Ray starts reading, listen to podcasts, find some content online about emotional manipulation.
And she learns about guilt tripping. She learns about fog and she thinks, well, I think this is it.
If I can just name what's happening calmly, because this video says that,
then I can point out that, hey, I think you're doing this. Maybe we can get somewhere.
So one night Kevin's upset because Ray made plans with her sister on a Saturday.
And he assumed that they were going to spend it together, but he didn't tell
her that he had plans for them. He just assumed.
So now that she's going to go do something for herself, he's cold.
Lots of sighs, making comments like, okay, I guess I just thought we were the
kind of couple who actually wanted to spend time together.
So Ray takes a breath. She's been practicing this and she says as calmly as she can.
Hey, it feels to me like you're trying to make me feel guilty for seeing my sister.
For a split second, there's silence. And she thinks, oh my gosh,
this might be it. Then...
Kevin's face changes, not softer, but much more stern.
Wow. He says, okay, so now I'm manipulating you. Is that what you think of me?
I express one feeling one, and now I'm some kind of emotional abuser.
You know what, Ray? Maybe the problem isn't me. Maybe the problem is that you've
been reading too much garbage on the internet and you need to get off your phone
anyway. And now you see everything I do is an attack.
Now Ray's backpedaling. No, no, no. That's not what I meant.
I was not calling you an abuser. I just, and he's like, oh, it doesn't matter.
Yes, you did. At that point, the conversation is no longer about Saturday and
her going out with her sister or heaven forbid Kevin not being able to take
ownership of the fact that he didn't bring up the fact that he had planned on spending time with Ray.
It's not about that. It's now about whether Ray is being unfair to Kevin by
even naming what she felt by expressing her emotions.
She spends the next hour trying to convince him that she does not think he's a bad person.
She should never have said it anyway, while the original issue disappears completely.
So that's what I mean when I say awareness doesn't land to the emotionally immature
or narcissistic partner's insight.
Ray said the right thing. She was calm. She used, I feel, language.
But Kevin didn't hear feedback.
Kevin heard an accusation. He heard criticism and his entire defense system
mobilized to then attack.
Here's another one. David's been with his partner, Michelle,
for six, seven years, and Michelle is charming and intelligent and successful,
but also very sensitive to any implication that she's done anything wrong.
Kind of notice in a pattern. Over time, David has noticed that whenever he raises
a concern, Michelle has a way of turning it around. So, David ends up apologizing.
Now, David has been working with a therapist who specializes in the area and
the therapist has been helping David understand the concepts of DARVO,
deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.
David's learned that he's allowed to name his experience without needing Michelle
to agree with it. So he decides to try something new.
One evening, Michelle's venting about a colleague at work, which is fine.
David's always open for that.
David listens for a little while and then he says, hey, you know what was crazy?
I had a pretty hard day today too.
And Michelle barely even acknowledges him and she just looks at him and then
just keeps talking about herself.
Later, David brings it up again, very gently. At this point,
Michelle rolls her eyes. She said, I was literally in the middle of a story.
And you can also see that I'm stressed, but sure. How about you make it about you, David?
David's trying the new approach now. He says, hey, I'm noticing that when I
try to share something, it often gets redirected back to you.
And I'm not saying that you're doing it on purpose, but I would love for us
to be able to hear each other.
And Michelle stares at him. What are you saying?
You think I'm a narcissist? Is that what you're saying? That I don't care about you?
After all the things I do for the relationship, you know that I essentially
pay for this apartment, right?
I planned your birthday. I sat with you for hours when your mom was sick,
but now you're gonna say, oh, I don't listen to you.
And now David is swimming upstream. He did not say any of those things.
He didn't even call Michelle a narcissist.
He didn't say Michelle doesn't care, but somehow the conversation shifted from,
I would like to feel heard to, how dare you accuse me of being a bad partner? And the worst part.
David, when he was sharing this with his therapist, he said,
and of course, I start doubting myself. Maybe I'm being unfair.
Maybe she does listen. And am I just too needy? Maybe bringing this up at all was a mistake.
That's what happens sometimes when you name something in a system that can't tolerate being seen.
The insight doesn't land. It gets absorbed into the other person's defense system
and shot back at you in a completely different shape.
And you leave the conversation more confused than when you started.
And somehow, you're the one who's apologizing.
So I realized that's more of the room that I sit in. And that's why I get,
I want to say nervous when somebody promises that a calm sentence can,
quote, turn off a narcissist.
In a workplace with a difficult coworker, maybe that can really make some ground.
And a friendship that's maybe gotten a little bit one-sided, probably not a bad idea.
But in those deeply bonded, long-term relationships where somebody has spent
years learning to walk on eggshells as a survival mechanism,
I'm afraid to say a script isn't going to save you because the other person's
nervous system is not listening for the truth. It's listening for threat.
And anything that sounds like you're being manipulative, it's a five alarm fire,
no matter how gently you say it, no matter how kind your eyes look when you
say it and how soft your tone is.
Because in emotionally immature and narcissistic dynamics, awareness does not land as insight.
When you try to bring awareness to them, it lands as exposure.
And exposure is a threat.
When you say something like, it feels like you're trying to make me feel guilty
right now, that might sound calm and respectful to the emotionally mature and intelligent.
But as somebody with a fragile sense of self, what they hear underneath that
is, you're wrong, you're manipulative, you're not the good person that you think
you are, and I'm right, and you're wrong. And then once that happens,
the whole nervous system flips and the conversation is no longer about the schedule
or the money or the tone or the boundary.
It is about restoring their one-up position, their sense of superiority and safety and control.
And that's when you'll see the familiar shift, denial, reversal,
accusations, rewriting history.
Suddenly you're the problem for bringing it up in the first place.
And that's why I've spent years now telling people there is no sentence,
no script, no perfectly delivered observation that will give the narcissistic
or the very emotionally immature partner,
their aha moment or their epiphany, they need to come upon that on their own.
And it's not because you're saying it wrong, but it's because their system isn't built to receive it.
And this is where I realized that's what my discomfort is with the concept of
a narcissistic off switch.
But again, love Chase Hughes. He's teaching people how to disarm manipulation.
And I think I'm trying to teach people how to not lose themselves and feel like
they are betraying themselves.
Those really aren't the same thing. They can be really good friends.
So disarming manipulation, I think is more about tactics in the moment.
Not losing yourself is about who you become over time inside the relationship.
In the kinds of relationships that I work with, people aren't just being manipulated.
They're being slowly eroded and they're editing themselves and they're walking
on eggshells and they're wrapping every truth in layers of kindness just to
keep the peace to the point where they don't even know what their truth is.
Trying to stay emotionally safe inside a system that will punish honesty is
a waste of emotional calories.
So when I hear somebody being encouraged to calmly label guilt tripping or name fear obligation.
I don't worry that it won't work because it's not clever enough.
I worry that it will work just enough to then give the narcissist the attack
surface that they're looking for and then to use it against that person that's
trying to bring this awareness to their own feelings or emotions because now
they're still monitoring.
They're still adjusting. They're still managing the other person's emotional
state. They're still hoping that if they just say it right, the explosion won't happen.
It's just a gussied up version of survival.
Again, Chase is absolutely right that emotional neutrality and clarity,
they do take away a manipulator's leverage.
But I think that I can also say, and this is hopefully some nice emotionally
mature language as well, that he is absolutely correct, as am I,
and that a narcissistic system in that context being right doesn't mean you're safe.
So the part that surprised me the most wasn't then where Chase and I disagreed.
It was then where I found myself more or less starting to quietly soften.
Because once I got past all the concepts around the off switch,
I realized something important.
I believe he's selling containment. He's teaching people how to not get pulled
into the emotional gravity of somebody trying to control, pressurize,
or destabilize them by using the fear, obligation, or guilt.
So then when I started looking at his tools, the pause, love it,
the silence, the neutral labeling, the refusal to emotionally react,
the reframing, now we're back.
Now I have to omit something to myself, that is a nice way to set some boundaries.
But it's also not the end of the journey. I mean, now you're just starting to get rolling.
So when Chase tells people to pause before responding, he's teaching nervous system regulation.
When he tells people to calmly name guilt or fear, he's teaching awareness.
When he tells people not to rush, not to defend, not to emotionally engage,
he's teaching detachment from your reactivity.
That is absolutely what I want for people as well.
But I think I just have to set the table for a little bit longer with the people
that I'm talking to. And I might need to take them a little bit further down that road.
Because these tools will never create emotional maturity in the other person.
And I did use the word never intentionally because I don't believe it will.
But they do start to create space for you and spaces where something really
important can start to show up your clarity, your sanity.
So then it seemed to me now that I stopped hearing Chase as somebody promising,
say this, and they'll finally get it.
And I started hearing that narcissistic off switch as somebody saying,
Hey, don't let their tactics hijack you.
And here's another tool that you can use along with my good friend,
Tony, somebody get that message to chase.
That's something that I can get behind because what I'm teaching more of is differentiation.
It's a concept that three and a half, four years ago, I knew nothing about.
And now it is so important in the work I do as an individual human being and
in the mental health world, and especially as a couples therapist.
It's becoming so grounded in who you are. You don't need the other person to
validate or understand or approve of you for you to know what's okay or what's true.
Chase Hughes is teaching people how to take the first step toward that by not
emotionally feeding the system that keeps them stuck.
Again, different, different altitudes, same mountain. I don't believe that there
is a narcissistic off switch.
There's no sentence that magically turns somebody else's defenses or shame or need for control.
I cannot state enough that what this has really helped me understand is even more.
There is a switch that turns on inside of you when you stop being emotionally
pulled around. And if Chase's work helps people flip that switch sooner,
even a little bit, I love it.
Let me wrap this thing up with a couple more examples. And let's talk about
the difference between tactics and then differentiation.
I think it's helpful to watch these things play out in real time.
So let's say your partner looks at you and says, I don't think you're very trustworthy.
First, I would just love to talk about what's probably happening underneath
that accusation. Let's talk about projection.
Projection is when somebody can't tolerate something inside of themselves.
Fear, guilt, shame, dishonesty, insecurity.
A lot of times their nervous system relocates it outside of them and into you.
And then they can attack it.
So instead of thinking, I feel unsafe or unsure or guilty, sometimes their nervous
system says, oh, you're unsafe. You're untrustworthy.
It's not that it's a conscious lie, but it is a bit of an emotional reflex.
I love the work of David Schnarch when it comes to the concepts around differentiation.
And Schnarch would say this comes from a fragile, reflected sense of self,
that we need to see ourselves as good, right, loyal, or justified.
So when something threatens that self-image, the discomfort has to go somewhere,
especially if you don't know what to do with it.
You can't sit with it. You don't have practice in doing so.
So it's going to land on the person that is being interacted with by the immature narcissist.
So when somebody in an emotionally immature narcissistic system says,
I really don't think you're trustworthy.
What they're often really saying is I don't feel secure or I'm afraid,
or I'm hiding something actually, or I don't actually trust my own reactions,
or I feel out of control, or I think everyone does this.
But they experience it as, and so that must be your fault.
One example might be a partner who is secretly texting somebody else,
and they become very hypervigilant about your phone.
So suddenly, you are the one that they are accusing of being suspicious.
They start accusing you of hiding things. They're projecting their betrayal anxiety outward.
Or another example, a partner who depends on you for emotional stability,
they may start feeling anxious when you become more independent.
So instead of saying, man, I feel kind of scared that you don't seem to need
me anymore. They say, I don't trust you anymore.
So they're projecting their fear of abandonment onto you, onto your character.
So that's, that's projection, moving their inner distress into these outer accusations.
Now you're defending something that I do not even know what I'm supposed to defend.
And then what happens if you defend yourself? So then they say,
you're not trustworthy.
Your nervous system reacts instantly, especially because most likely that's
something that you work hard to be is trustworthy.
So then you feel shock and anger and panic and shame. And what does that do?
It causes you to want to explain and defend and clarify and prove.
So you say something like, what are you talking about? I don't, I'm not lied to you.
I'm, I tell you everything. So this feels like an attack feels pretty ridiculous.
But now the traps have been set because now you're defending a claim you don't even understand.
And here's the emotionally immature logic running underneath that person saying,
if I feel it, it must be true. That's the core of emotional maturity.
They don't say, I feel uneasy and I don't know why. They say,
you're not trustworthy. I feel like that's the case.
So therefore it's true. So now you need to defend yourself about my claim to
you, even though I just don't feel good about myself.
Now you're forced into essentially a courtroom where they don't even need evidence
and you don't know the charges and their feelings are the judge.
You're now trying to prove innocence against a projection. And I am so sorry,
but that does not typically end well.
So what does differentiation look like in that moment? This is where Schnarch
has these four points of balance. And I think that these are the things to spend some time with.
Let me walk you through each one with this exact accusation.
So part one, he says you need to have a solid and flexible sense of self.
So this means knowing who you are without needing somebody else to tell you
instead of thinking, oh, no, do they think I'm a bad person?
You get to quietly say inside this exchange allows me to do a quick check in.
And am I being a bad person because I know who I am?
It doesn't mean you're perfect. And it doesn't mean that you wouldn't love that validation.
I think that gets a negative connotation these days that we all get our sense
of self from external validation growing up.
But then at some point, then now I will take it from here.
The training wheels are off and I need to figure out who I am.
So when somebody says, I don't like this about you, rather than get reactive and defensive,
we get to say, oh, I appreciate you bringing this thing up because this gives
me a chance to look inward and say, is there truth in what you're saying? If there is, thank you.
And I can work on this. It's something that I want to get rid of or to heal.
But you also can say, thank you for sharing that because I know that that's
not who I am. If they say you're not trustworthy, your internal response gets
to be, hey, that's your experience, but it's not my identity.
Now, I can even say, well, tell me more. Help me understand what you're seeing.
But you don't instantly accept it. But you also don't have to instantly reject
it. You just don't let it define you. That's on this road to differentiation.
Schnarch has the second point of balance, quiet mind, calm heart,
which means to self-soothe your anxiety instead of needing somebody else to
fix it. Your body constantly wants to fight or prove or panic,
or just let the person know this is not okay for them to say.
Differentiation says, oh, I can hold this without exploding or collapsing.
I can make space. So I breathe.
I might even feel uncomfortable, but I don't rush to rescue my image.
You're learning emotional autonomy. And then point three, Schnarr says, grounded responding.
That means not overreacting, but also not withdrawing.
So instead of how dare you, or I'll sit this one out, silent shutdown,
you might say something like, man, that's a pretty strong statement,
but help me understand what's making you feel that way. Not defensive,
not submissive, but grounded.
You're not accepting the accusation as I guess that's the truth,
but you're also not fighting it, saying that's ridiculous, but you are holding your ground.
And then his fourth point of balance, meaningful endurance. That means tolerating
discomfort. Growth comes from discomfort and you'll take ownership of what's yours.
This can actually be the hardest part because you're letting them be uncomfortable.
You let them think what they think. You don't scramble to make it go away.
And if there is something real underneath, you own it.
If I've done something that made you feel unsafe, I want to hear it and I will
apologize. I'll repair.
I'll take ownership of that and I'll make meaningful effort to change.
That's the self-validated intimacy being known without demanding approval.
But if it's projection, you don't take it on.
So what does differentiation really look like? They say you're not trustworthy.
You don't say prove it or you're wrong.
You say calmly and internally, well, I know who I am.
So I can actually listen to this without losing myself. It's not being passive. It's being powerful.
You are no longer emotionally fused to whatever it is that they're going to
say that you are or whoever they say that you are.
You're no longer defending a reflected self from them.
You're no longer trying to negotiate your identity to prove to them that they
need to understand what you mean and who you are.
You're standing inside your four points of balance.
And that's what can start to make manipulation stop working.
You are no fun to the narcissist anymore. You don't give them narcissistic fuel or ammo.
You're not a fun toy to play with anymore. And it's not because you out-talked
it, but because you no longer own it. It doesn't own you.
A couple other things I think are really interesting. This is what happens next.
And it's where things even become more of a challenge. but the more of a challenge,
the more opportunity there can be for true growth.
Schnarch talks about a concept called gridlock, and that's where he describes
a moment in a relationship where neither partner can get the other to change,
and neither partner can emotionally validate themselves in the face of the other
person's negative reactions.
So that's exactly what starts happening when you become more differentiated,
when you don't fold and just give in and play small and self-sacrifice.
Before differentiation, you're You accommodate, you self-abandon,
you explain, you shrink, you need them to know and understand and why can't they?
But once you start holding your own center, once you stop over apologizing and
stop editing yourself and stop chasing their reassurance, the relationship will often hit a wall.
They still want you to soothe them, to collapse, to prove, to comply,
and you're no longer willing to. So nothing moves.
And that tension, that stuckness, that pain, that's gridlock.
And at first, gridlock can feel awful because for the first time, you're not giving in.
They're not changing either. And that's the exact moment where people go looking
for tools like the off switch.
Schnarch says that when you hit gridlock, the task then is no longer to fix
the relationship, but the task is to take your unresolved personal issues out
of that gridlock situation and now confront them as an act of integrity.
It's what he calls constructing your crucible. And it is such a powerful tool.
So that means you stop asking, how do I get them to change? and you start asking,
who do I want to be in this moment, even if they never do?
And this is where the off switch would suddenly become psychologically safe, but only here.
This is why I wanted to stay in this conversation to get through to this part of the crucible.
Because now you're not using it to control the outcome. You don't need them to understand.
You're using it to stay in a place of integrity. And this is why I think outcome
independence, that concept becomes everything.
Because if you say it feels like you're trying to make me
feel guilty and inside you're hoping they'll back down or admit
it or understand or finally get it or have the aha moment
you're not differentiated yet you're still fused to
their response but if you get to this point and you've constructed your crucible
and you say it because this is the truth of my experience and i'm willing to
let you react however you want to react now it becomes crucible work now it's
self-validated intimacy instead of manipulation or pleading or begging someone to understand.
You're no longer saying it to change them. You're saying it because that's who
you are, because you say those things.
It's outcome independent. You say it because it's the right thing to say.
That's what outcome independence actually means. You know you're not fully differentiated
yet when you still feel rattled if they don't agree.
Want to say, I promise you that this is a concept that I did not have a clue what it was.
And then even as I started to understand the words or the concepts,
there is nothing like when you finally embody it or feel it and you hold onto
yourself, even when somebody else is trying to tell you what a piece of garbage you are.
And you're like, man, tell me more about that. Cause I'm not, I'm okay.
Because when they don't agree, when they still keep pushing buttons,
If you continue to feel compelled to explain, then it's going to continue to
feed your anxiety, especially when they dismiss you.
When you feel invalidated, when they don't get it, is when you'll continue to
try to get them to get it more, and they could do that all day.
But that still tells you my sense of self is tied to their reflection of me.
And that's that part that Schnarch is calling that reflected sense of self.
So what did we learn today? Here's where I've landed on all this.
Chase Hughes and I need to be friends.
We're both trying to help people stop disappearing inside somebody else's emotional weather.
We use a little bit different language. He talks in tactics.
I talk in differentiation, but we're aiming at the same outcome,
helping people stop handing their emotional steering wheel over to somebody
who keeps yanking it over into the ditch.
His work is so helpful for a lot of the first steps for learning to pause,
for recognizing fog, for not taking the bait.
And then if you want to change who you are and you feel even possibly stuck
inside an emotionally mature narcissistic relationship, and you want to learn
not just to survive them, but to grow through them, to figure out who you are,
even in that relationship,
it's going to be a little bit more work, a lot more work, because you're going
to have to confront your own need for validation.
You have to build a self that doesn't depend on their approval,
and you have to construct your crucible and hold yourself there until something transforms.
That that transformation is happening inside of you. And that is no longer a
tactic. That's your life's work.
But it does start with exactly what Chase Hughes is teaching.
The moment you stop being emotionally reactive, when you pause,
when you get curious, when you stop scrambling to defend or justify,
the interaction does begin to change.
The manipulator over time doesn't get the dopamine hit that they were expecting.
And then that emotional leverage that they were counting on,
it's gone. And they will push additional buttons to try to get you to fall back in line.
You don't feel powerful though, because you dominated them. You start to feel
powerful because you stayed you.
And I'll tell you, you can't even be you if you don't know who you are.
Kind of sounds a little bit like a no kidding old man.
But when you are still trying to figure out how to get this person to like me,
you truly don't know who you are yet.
It's so cliched and it is so true. But if I do not fully love myself and know
who I am, then I am continually trying to get someone else to love me and try
to figure out how to do that. And that's where you're handing them too much of your power.
What we talked about today will help you become more autonomous to help you understand who you are.
And that will in turn benefit by providing you more stability and more nervous system regulation.
And that leads to self-trust. And that in the end is exactly what I hope that you can gain from this.
So thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
I would love to hear your feedback. If you have questions, comments,
stories, you name it, send them to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
And I will see you next time on Waking Up.