WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.342 --> 00:00:06.792 Hey everybody. 00:00:06.792 --> 00:00:10.662 Welcome to episode 147 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:10.662 --> 00:00:11.692 I'm your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.712 --> 00:00:14.382 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and a huge thank 00:00:14.382 --> 00:00:16.332 you to RI Hope for her song. 00:00:16.332 --> 00:00:18.882 It's not my job that led into today's episode. 00:00:18.882 --> 00:00:22.822 And please go find ri wherever you listen to music, find me on Instagram at virtual 00:00:23.002 --> 00:00:24.982 couch or on TikTok at virtual couch. 00:00:25.042 --> 00:00:26.122 Substack is growing. 00:00:26.122 --> 00:00:27.772 Substack is a very fun place to be. 00:00:28.072 --> 00:00:30.382 Go to substack.com/the virtual couch. 00:00:30.412 --> 00:00:31.912 There's a lot there. 00:00:32.342 --> 00:00:35.732 Getting into some bigger question and answer episodes and some behind 00:00:35.732 --> 00:00:37.382 the scenes stuff on Substack. 00:00:38.102 --> 00:00:38.312 Okay. 00:00:38.312 --> 00:00:41.102 But today we are gonna do one of my very favorite types of episodes. 00:00:41.132 --> 00:00:44.492 We're gonna start with an email from a listener, and I am going to use that as 00:00:44.492 --> 00:00:49.427 my muse, and I want to talk about that word muse because I just don't think 00:00:49.517 --> 00:00:53.987 that we use the concept of muse enough in our emotional or our relational lives. 00:00:54.053 --> 00:00:57.953 I am here on maybe a one man mission to make muse a part 00:00:57.953 --> 00:00:59.003 of your everyday vocabulary. 00:00:59.243 --> 00:01:00.373 Because I think about it a lot. 00:01:00.473 --> 00:01:03.473 I think a lot of people when they hear the word muse, maybe think about 00:01:03.473 --> 00:01:07.913 Greek mythology or some artistic genius that is staring out a window. 00:01:08.453 --> 00:01:09.803 But here is how I define it. 00:01:10.643 --> 00:01:16.613 A muse is anything that invites you into a little bit of self confrontation, 00:01:16.903 --> 00:01:22.623 curiosity, discovery about yourself, about another person, about whatever 00:01:22.623 --> 00:01:23.733 it is that you're interacting with. 00:01:24.393 --> 00:01:26.463 Because a muse can be a conversation. 00:01:26.563 --> 00:01:31.213 A podcast that you're listening to, a song lyric, a problematic coworker, a sunset, a 00:01:31.213 --> 00:01:32.803 smell that takes you back to fifth grade. 00:01:33.223 --> 00:01:37.903 Anything that pulls you inward and says, okay, what's happening for me right now? 00:01:38.503 --> 00:01:39.493 What am I feeling? 00:01:39.583 --> 00:01:40.573 What am I thinking? 00:01:41.533 --> 00:01:42.703 What's my experience? 00:01:43.363 --> 00:01:47.663 Your muse is simply a mirror that shows you what's already there what's coming 00:01:47.663 --> 00:01:52.403 up for you, and then what you can work on if you want to, or what you can lean 00:01:52.403 --> 00:01:54.563 more into or what you can learn from. 00:01:55.353 --> 00:01:59.983 Today's email this one is a mirror that reflects so many of the stories that 00:01:59.983 --> 00:02:02.203 I hear from listeners in my office. 00:02:02.203 --> 00:02:05.443 I really think that you'll identify with something in this email. 00:02:06.228 --> 00:02:09.738 . I'm going to read the email all the way through without commentary. 00:02:10.098 --> 00:02:12.618 Then I'm gonna go back to the beginning, which is a very good place 00:02:12.618 --> 00:02:16.368 to start, and I'm gonna pull out each sentence or section, and talk 00:02:16.368 --> 00:02:19.278 through the concepts that show up along the way, and we're gonna hit. 00:02:19.743 --> 00:02:23.223 Everything today, everything from emotional immaturity and attachment 00:02:23.223 --> 00:02:26.373 dynamics and projection and trying to give the other person 00:02:26.373 --> 00:02:27.903 the aha moment or the epiphany. 00:02:28.563 --> 00:02:31.593 But what we're really going to nail down today is this idea 00:02:31.773 --> 00:02:33.543 of a narcissistic collapse. 00:02:33.943 --> 00:02:37.123 That term is something that has been getting a fair amount of airtime, 00:02:37.123 --> 00:02:41.213 especially on TikTok, where one might call me a bit of a TikTok therapist, although 00:02:41.213 --> 00:02:43.043 it is just purely advice that I'm giving. 00:02:43.043 --> 00:02:45.903 I'm not your therapist, unless you're literally one of my 00:02:45.903 --> 00:02:49.893 clients listening to this podcast, but here's the email as it is. 00:02:50.703 --> 00:02:51.183 Hi Tony. 00:02:51.183 --> 00:02:54.093 I've been listening to Waking up to Narcissism now for two years, 00:02:54.093 --> 00:02:56.943 and I wanted to reach out because something has been bugging me and 00:02:56.943 --> 00:02:58.083 I trust your perspective on it. 00:02:58.623 --> 00:03:02.313 A little background, I'm 46, married for 18 years, two kids, 12 00:03:02.313 --> 00:03:05.133 and 15 who are doing well despite everything that I'm going through. 00:03:06.123 --> 00:03:08.793 I have a good career in sales and from the outside, I think most 00:03:08.793 --> 00:03:12.063 people would say I have a pretty good life, and in a lot of ways I do. 00:03:12.528 --> 00:03:16.458 But my marriage has been slowly unraveling for years, and your podcast has been 00:03:16.458 --> 00:03:19.278 one of the only things that has helped me make sense of what's been happening. 00:03:19.878 --> 00:03:22.878 When I first started listening, I actually thought that I was the narcissist. 00:03:22.968 --> 00:03:26.358 My wife had told me that for years, she had said that I was too sensitive or 00:03:26.358 --> 00:03:29.988 that I always had to be right, that I was impossible to talk to, and I believed her. 00:03:30.648 --> 00:03:32.868 So I went to individual therapy, convinced that something was 00:03:32.868 --> 00:03:34.188 fundamentally broken in me. 00:03:34.908 --> 00:03:37.308 But the more I listened to your episodes, especially the ones about 00:03:37.308 --> 00:03:40.458 emotional immaturity and how we're all starting from that place, the more 00:03:40.458 --> 00:03:41.958 I started to see things differently. 00:03:42.348 --> 00:03:45.348 And what really hit me was when you talk about how the emotionally immature 00:03:45.348 --> 00:03:49.638 person will take almost anything that you share and use it as an attack surface. 00:03:50.028 --> 00:03:51.198 That's exactly what happens. 00:03:51.588 --> 00:03:54.528 If I tell her something that's bothering me, it becomes ammunition. 00:03:54.948 --> 00:03:58.368 If I'm vulnerable about something from my past, it comes back during an argument. 00:03:58.848 --> 00:04:02.058 I've learned to share almost nothing, which I know is not healthy either. 00:04:02.538 --> 00:04:05.538 Here's my biggest problem, and I know you're gonna call me out on this. 00:04:06.018 --> 00:04:09.258 I still think that I can give her the epiphany or the aha moment. 00:04:09.798 --> 00:04:12.678 And I know that you've said a hundred times that you can't, that they have 00:04:12.678 --> 00:04:15.618 to find it on their own, and that trying to get them to see it is just 00:04:15.618 --> 00:04:17.418 another form of staying enmeshed. 00:04:17.748 --> 00:04:18.348 I hear you. 00:04:18.348 --> 00:04:19.158 I really do. 00:04:19.548 --> 00:04:22.518 But part of me is convinced that if I just explain it in the right way 00:04:22.518 --> 00:04:25.878 or find the right moment, or show her the right article or podcast 00:04:25.878 --> 00:04:27.413 episode, that something will click. 00:04:28.293 --> 00:04:31.353 'cause her behavior is just so hurtful sometimes that I feel like 00:04:31.353 --> 00:04:33.873 she has to be able to see it if I can just get through to her. 00:04:34.623 --> 00:04:35.493 Making matters worse. 00:04:35.493 --> 00:04:37.953 We spent almost three years with a couple's therapist who I now 00:04:37.953 --> 00:04:39.783 realize was making things worse. 00:04:40.293 --> 00:04:43.413 At the time I thought therapy was supposed to be hard and that discomfort 00:04:43.413 --> 00:04:44.583 meant that we were doing the work. 00:04:45.033 --> 00:04:47.883 But looking back, I think her therapist just continually validated 00:04:47.883 --> 00:04:50.253 my wife's perspective without ever really challenging her. 00:04:51.243 --> 00:04:53.843 But every session, my wife would tell her side of things and the therapist 00:04:53.843 --> 00:04:56.903 would nod and say things like, it sounds like you're really feeling unheard. 00:04:56.993 --> 00:04:59.033 And then turn to me like I needed to fix that. 00:04:59.483 --> 00:05:02.603 Meanwhile, I would try to share my experience and somehow it always came back 00:05:02.603 --> 00:05:03.773 to what I could have done differently. 00:05:04.283 --> 00:05:06.743 My wife would leave those sessions feeling vindicated and then use 00:05:06.743 --> 00:05:09.323 whatever came up in therapy against me for the rest of the week. 00:05:10.043 --> 00:05:12.743 So I finally put my foot down and I said I wouldn't go back. 00:05:12.743 --> 00:05:15.323 Which of course became another example of me being unwilling 00:05:15.323 --> 00:05:16.283 to work on the marriage. 00:05:16.793 --> 00:05:18.533 Anyway, here's the real reason I'm writing. 00:05:18.833 --> 00:05:21.323 Over the past several months, I've found a lot of comfort in online 00:05:21.323 --> 00:05:25.103 content about narcissism, mostly Instagram reels and tiktoks. 00:05:25.193 --> 00:05:29.123 I know that probably sounds pathetic for a 46-year-old man, but at 2:00 AM when 00:05:29.123 --> 00:05:33.023 I can't sleep and I'm replaying another argument in my head, it helps me see 00:05:33.023 --> 00:05:37.043 that other people get it that I'm not crazy, but there's this trend I keep 00:05:37.043 --> 00:05:40.613 seeing and I can't tell if it's actually a thing or if it's just because the 00:05:40.613 --> 00:05:42.263 algorithm has figured out What I watch. 00:05:42.683 --> 00:05:47.303 People keep talking about the narcissistic collapse and how 2025 is going to be 00:05:47.303 --> 00:05:48.953 the year of the narcissistic collapse. 00:05:49.073 --> 00:05:51.953 There are all these videos about how narcissists eventually have a collapse 00:05:51.953 --> 00:05:55.013 where their mask balls off, and everybody sees them for who they really are. 00:05:55.493 --> 00:05:57.653 I'll be honest, part of me really wants this to be true. 00:05:58.013 --> 00:06:01.283 I want there to be some moment where my wife finally sees what she's doing 00:06:01.283 --> 00:06:04.793 or that people around us finally see what I've been dealing with for years. 00:06:05.123 --> 00:06:08.663 I guess I want there to be some kind of cosmic justice, but the more I 00:06:08.663 --> 00:06:11.483 look into the people making these videos, the more I notice that none 00:06:11.483 --> 00:06:14.663 of them seem to be actual therapists or psychologists or psychiatrists. 00:06:15.263 --> 00:06:18.743 They're coaches or survivors or empaths, but I haven't really seen the credentials 00:06:18.743 --> 00:06:20.123 that cause me to fully believe them. 00:06:20.453 --> 00:06:23.273 And some of the stuff they say almost seems too good to be true. 00:06:23.663 --> 00:06:25.883 Like they're telling people exactly what they want to hear. 00:06:26.333 --> 00:06:30.143 So my question is, is narcissistic collapse actually a real clinical concept? 00:06:30.773 --> 00:06:33.683 Is there any truth, this idea that narcissists eventually have 00:06:33.683 --> 00:06:36.023 some kind of breakdown where everything falls apart for them? 00:06:36.383 --> 00:06:39.413 Or is this just content creators feeding desperate people like me what 00:06:39.413 --> 00:06:40.703 we want to hear at two in the morning? 00:06:41.363 --> 00:06:43.403 I'd love to hear your take on this, whether on the podcast 00:06:43.403 --> 00:06:44.603 or even just a quick reply. 00:06:44.963 --> 00:06:47.573 I trust that you'll gimme the truth even if it's not what I want to hear. 00:06:47.993 --> 00:06:48.983 Thanks for everything you do. 00:06:49.013 --> 00:06:52.373 Your podcast has been a lifeline assigned Matt, not my real name. 00:06:52.624 --> 00:06:53.704 Thank you Matt. 00:06:53.804 --> 00:06:55.514 Let's go back and break this thing down. 00:06:55.914 --> 00:06:59.114 It probably won't be exactly line by line, , but we're gonna get pretty darn close. 00:06:59.384 --> 00:07:02.564 So Matt starts out, I've been listening to Waking Up to Narcissism 00:07:02.564 --> 00:07:05.384 for about two years, and right away I wanna validate something. 00:07:05.924 --> 00:07:08.774 There are podcasts that people listen to purely for entertainment, 00:07:08.804 --> 00:07:12.284 and there are others that people listen to to try and figure out their 00:07:12.284 --> 00:07:15.524 relationships or understand difficult concepts of their relationships. 00:07:16.014 --> 00:07:19.464 Sometimes that in and of itself can start to be overwhelming. 00:07:19.614 --> 00:07:22.734 And it's kind of funny because I will often have people tell me that 00:07:22.734 --> 00:07:26.394 they'll listen to some of my content for a while and then they tell me 00:07:26.394 --> 00:07:28.734 that they really need to take a break as if I'm gonna be offended. 00:07:29.124 --> 00:07:33.144 But I understand this is heavy stuff I do try to make things entertaining, 00:07:33.264 --> 00:07:38.004 but the data that I'm gonna present is based off of now 20 plus years sitting 00:07:38.004 --> 00:07:40.974 in the chair as a therapist and also dealing with emotionally immature and 00:07:40.974 --> 00:07:43.014 narcissistic people in my own life. 00:07:43.014 --> 00:07:44.154 People that I've interacted with. 00:07:44.454 --> 00:07:47.634 There are times where honest to goodness, I need to take a break from 00:07:47.634 --> 00:07:49.044 the things that I listen to as well. 00:07:49.294 --> 00:07:52.264 I don't know if I can just thank my A DHD for this, but at any given 00:07:52.264 --> 00:07:56.824 moment, I'm listening to a couple of entertainment podcasts, probably a fiction 00:07:56.824 --> 00:08:00.814 book, as well as a nonfiction book, as well as other therapist podcasts. 00:08:01.174 --> 00:08:04.714 There are times where that's gonna be more balanced toward just wanting to listen 00:08:04.714 --> 00:08:09.424 to things for pleasure versus wanting to continually learn and grow and know 00:08:09.484 --> 00:08:12.754 the things that will help me as a human, as well as help people in my practice. 00:08:13.354 --> 00:08:16.564 So when you're listening to this podcast, it's okay to acknowledge I'm listening 00:08:16.564 --> 00:08:19.204 because something in my relationship most likely doesn't make sense. 00:08:19.534 --> 00:08:22.924 And I'm trying to make sense of myself and how I show up in this dynamic. 00:08:22.924 --> 00:08:27.124 And that can be exhausting at times, and other times it can be liberating. 00:08:27.814 --> 00:08:31.054 So Matt, reaching out means that he's starting to wake up. 00:08:31.654 --> 00:08:34.744 Now it goes on to say, my marriage has been slowly unraveling for years. 00:08:35.594 --> 00:08:39.194 When your relationship is chronically unpredictable, I'm gonna 00:08:39.194 --> 00:08:41.439 go right to my commandment one. 00:08:41.489 --> 00:08:44.129 If you listen to last week's episode on the 10 Commandments of dealing 00:08:44.129 --> 00:08:46.649 with the narcissist or the emotionally immature, that you're probably still 00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:50.699 breaking commandment number one is raise your emotional baseline. 00:08:51.239 --> 00:08:54.419 When you are in a chronically emotionally volatile relationship, 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:56.249 your baseline is low. 00:08:56.309 --> 00:08:57.299 It isn't calm. 00:08:57.719 --> 00:09:01.679 Your nervous system lives right there on the border of fight or flight, or 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:03.749 it's in full fledged fight or flight. 00:09:04.169 --> 00:09:07.139 And when you've been in that state for a long time, you don't even realize 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:11.199 how low your emotional baseline has fallen until you're out of the fog. 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.979 Because if you are living in survival mode, it's hyper vigilance. 00:09:15.309 --> 00:09:18.699 It's this place where your cortisol is basically on a slow drip 00:09:18.699 --> 00:09:21.189 constantly, but it is remaining high. 00:09:21.439 --> 00:09:25.384 , The raising your emotional baseline concept is that self-care is not selfish. 00:09:25.834 --> 00:09:29.314 And self-care doesn't have to be manicures and pedicures and running a marathon, 00:09:29.364 --> 00:09:30.834 although those things can be amazing. 00:09:31.524 --> 00:09:34.344 It can be listening to podcasts, it can be reading books, it can 00:09:34.374 --> 00:09:35.844 be using an adult coloring book. 00:09:35.844 --> 00:09:39.184 I just had somebody recently tell me that they've been doing, those paint by numbers 00:09:39.184 --> 00:09:41.404 kits, and I wanna do that really bad. 00:09:41.434 --> 00:09:44.944 I didn't even know that those were still a thing I darn near wanna bust out. 00:09:44.994 --> 00:09:49.200 The yarn, macrame, crochet, cross stitch needle point. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:52.560 Self-care can also be letting yourself think or dream. 00:09:52.560 --> 00:09:54.570 Again, that is self-care. 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.590 'cause the alternative, and I think what most people end up doing when 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:03.180 they're in these emotionally immature or narcissistic relationships is obsessing 00:10:03.180 --> 00:10:05.220 over things like, what did I do wrong? 00:10:05.280 --> 00:10:06.240 How can I fix this? 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:07.500 How do I get through to them? 00:10:07.650 --> 00:10:09.030 How do I prevent the next explosion? 00:10:09.060 --> 00:10:12.660 And it can be so tempting to continually look at what I can 00:10:12.660 --> 00:10:16.410 do, because if there's something that I can do, then I can fix it. 00:10:16.890 --> 00:10:19.680 But sometimes the only thing that you can do is to stop putting 00:10:19.680 --> 00:10:24.580 effort into a bad relationship and learn about what's happening. 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:29.050 And truly do your own self confrontation and be genuinely curious about the 00:10:29.050 --> 00:10:30.580 dynamic and how you're showing up in it. 00:10:31.090 --> 00:10:34.210 And that can be really, really hard because we want to make it 00:10:34.210 --> 00:10:35.740 about something that we can do. 00:10:36.130 --> 00:10:37.870 How do I prevent the next explosion? 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.440 . In the grand scheme of things that isn't self-care, that's more like 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:43.180 self abandonment or self betrayal. 00:10:43.180 --> 00:10:46.990 And I get it because again, if I can make it about me, then I can fix it. 00:10:47.350 --> 00:10:50.800 But if it's not about me, it might feel pretty unfixable. 00:10:50.830 --> 00:10:52.720 And that can be lonely. 00:10:52.750 --> 00:10:53.980 It can feel devastating. 00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:55.090 It can feel hopeless. 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:57.820 You can feel stuck, and those things are scary. 00:10:58.330 --> 00:11:01.270 So our brain constantly is trying to figure out a way to get out 00:11:01.270 --> 00:11:04.880 of the discomfort, to predict, to make meaning to seek certainty. 00:11:04.880 --> 00:11:08.300 But when your brain is constantly trying to predict and manage another person's, 00:11:08.340 --> 00:11:13.900 emotional weather system, they end up taking up way too much time and way 00:11:13.900 --> 00:11:15.580 too much square footage in your psyche. 00:11:16.390 --> 00:11:19.000 You start spending all these emotional calories, managing things 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.900 that will most likely never produce safety or connection or even relief. 00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:27.520 And investing those emotional calories and self-care and understanding even just 00:11:27.520 --> 00:11:31.870 the dynamic that you're in, is a much better use of your own neural real estate. 00:11:32.542 --> 00:11:32.812 Next. 00:11:32.812 --> 00:11:36.532 Matt said, when I first started listening, I actually thought I was the narcissist. 00:11:36.532 --> 00:11:40.072 And if you've listened for long, this is one of the most universal emails I get. 00:11:40.072 --> 00:11:40.522 Why? 00:11:40.972 --> 00:11:44.002 'cause emotionally, immature, narcissistic partners are masters 00:11:44.002 --> 00:11:45.472 at projection and blame shifting. 00:11:45.802 --> 00:11:47.782 So they often say things like, you're too sensitive. 00:11:47.782 --> 00:11:50.332 Do you know how difficult it is to talk to you to be married to you?, 00:11:50.382 --> 00:11:51.612 You think you always have to be right? 00:11:51.612 --> 00:11:52.992 You are impossible to talk to. 00:11:53.622 --> 00:11:56.382 And if you really look at the research on projection, it typically 00:11:56.382 --> 00:11:59.202 means that's how I feel about myself and it's too painful to own. 00:11:59.202 --> 00:12:02.022 So I'm going to project it out on you, and now I'm going to attack it. 00:12:02.442 --> 00:12:04.512 So you're gonna be completely confused, which is gonna give me 00:12:04.512 --> 00:12:07.782 even more ammo to say, see, you don't even understand what I'm saying. 00:12:07.812 --> 00:12:08.727 You don't even hear me. 00:12:09.387 --> 00:12:12.562 And this is where I really wanna drop , the go-to phrase, , the 00:12:12.562 --> 00:12:13.852 thing that I want everybody to hear. 00:12:14.452 --> 00:12:17.872 If you are genuinely vulnerably asking yourself, am I the narcissist? 00:12:18.202 --> 00:12:22.432 You're probably not the people who write me these emails. 00:12:22.682 --> 00:12:26.162 , They're the ones reading and reflecting and questioning their own impact. 00:12:26.222 --> 00:12:28.142 They're the ones that are going to therapy. 00:12:28.142 --> 00:12:30.782 They're the ones that are listening to the podcast and reading the 00:12:30.782 --> 00:12:32.332 books and trying to figure it out. 00:12:32.332 --> 00:12:37.052 Meanwhile, the emotionally immature partner, they're not going to 00:12:37.052 --> 00:12:38.882 those links to figure things out. 00:12:40.292 --> 00:12:42.722 They're not Googling, am I emotionally abusive? 00:12:43.352 --> 00:12:47.372 They're Googling, if anything, how do I make my spouse stop overreacting? 00:12:48.302 --> 00:12:49.862 They're not writing into a podcast. 00:12:50.102 --> 00:12:52.142 They're not reading another book about the relationship. 00:12:52.502 --> 00:12:54.842 They're not continually trying to figure out what they're 00:12:54.842 --> 00:12:56.192 doing that's causing this. 00:12:56.792 --> 00:12:58.382 They're may be chat GP ting. 00:12:58.712 --> 00:13:03.482 What are human ways to apologize rather than embodying an apology? 00:13:04.412 --> 00:13:07.802 The people who ask the question, am I the narcissist, are almost never 00:13:07.922 --> 00:13:09.722 the ones that the question is about. 00:13:11.072 --> 00:13:13.922 Next, Matt says, I went to individual therapy and I was convinced that 00:13:13.922 --> 00:13:17.882 something was fundamentally broken in me, this is emotional immaturity, 00:13:17.882 --> 00:13:19.652 most powerful weapon self-doubt. 00:13:20.492 --> 00:13:25.022 The person who is emotionally mature enough to ask, am I the problem is, 00:13:25.022 --> 00:13:29.822 again, almost never the, definitely not the entire problem and usually 00:13:29.822 --> 00:13:31.712 not even the majority of the problem. 00:13:32.312 --> 00:13:36.362 And I really wanna pause here and say this directly to my listener, Matt, and 00:13:36.362 --> 00:13:39.212 then to anybody who relates to this. 00:13:39.512 --> 00:13:40.952 I am genuinely proud of you. 00:13:41.132 --> 00:13:41.612 Truly. 00:13:41.702 --> 00:13:43.022 I love clients like you. 00:13:43.442 --> 00:13:46.952 'cause it takes courage to go to therapy when you believe that you are the problem. 00:13:47.762 --> 00:13:51.122 It takes courage to read the books and listen to the podcast 00:13:51.122 --> 00:13:54.152 and try to go back in and fix the relationship over and over again. 00:13:54.752 --> 00:13:58.852 As a therapist, it often takes a session or two or 10 to help people 00:13:58.852 --> 00:14:02.122 see that they aren't solely responsible for the pain in the relationship. 00:14:03.022 --> 00:14:05.902 So showing up for therapy, especially when you believe that you're 00:14:05.902 --> 00:14:07.972 the broken one, that is bravery. 00:14:08.032 --> 00:14:12.352 My good friend Matt and anybody else who's listening next, he says that he identified 00:14:12.352 --> 00:14:15.712 with when I've said that the emotionally immature person will take anything that 00:14:15.712 --> 00:14:18.022 you share and use it as an attack surface. 00:14:18.652 --> 00:14:19.582 I will say yes. 00:14:19.732 --> 00:14:20.392 Yes. 00:14:20.452 --> 00:14:21.562 Capital YES. 00:14:21.562 --> 00:14:22.042 Yes. 00:14:22.792 --> 00:14:26.242 In last week's episode, this is one of the newly minted 00:14:26.242 --> 00:14:28.012 commandments, emotional commandment. 00:14:28.012 --> 00:14:31.102 Number six, thou shalt limit thine attack surface. 00:14:31.702 --> 00:14:34.492 When you share a vulnerable story with an emotionally immature partner, 00:14:34.642 --> 00:14:38.812 or any story for that matter, you're not deepening intimacy. 00:14:38.872 --> 00:14:42.502 You unfortunately are handing them a tool for the next argument or an 00:14:42.502 --> 00:14:46.582 argument right then or something they cannot even respond to. 00:14:47.392 --> 00:14:49.342 It doesn't mean that you're wrong for sharing. 00:14:49.432 --> 00:14:52.402 It means that they don't have the capacity or the ability or the genuine 00:14:52.402 --> 00:14:57.142 curiosity to hold that conversation gently and look at it as what it is. 00:14:57.142 --> 00:15:00.292 It's an emotional bid for connection and for intimacy. 00:15:00.892 --> 00:15:02.597 Matt said, I've learned to share almost nothing. 00:15:02.937 --> 00:15:05.512 And, here begins the tragedy of living with emotionally 00:15:05.512 --> 00:15:06.892 immature and narcissistic people. 00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:09.480 Silencing yourself, becomes a safety strategy. 00:15:09.690 --> 00:15:13.830 This is a survival adaptation and I've had many people reach this point and 00:15:13.830 --> 00:15:16.980 say, okay, now that I know this, I think I can stay in the relationship. 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:19.620 I'll just stop sharing anything vulnerable and I think I'll be okay. 00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:23.700 I will outsource the vulnerable or the intimate conversations to other people 00:15:23.940 --> 00:15:25.950 at work , or groups or my parents. 00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:30.158 And that is where I gently bring some awareness and ask , how does your central 00:15:30.158 --> 00:15:31.598 nervous system feel about that plan? 00:15:32.438 --> 00:15:35.738 'cause here's the truth, we are biologically wired for connection. 00:15:35.948 --> 00:15:39.218 It goes back to exiting the womb and not knowing we exist unless 00:15:39.218 --> 00:15:42.478 we interact with another human, especially with somebody that we 00:15:42.478 --> 00:15:44.008 chose to be in a relationship with. 00:15:44.698 --> 00:15:48.313 So convincing yourself that your connection is unsafe , is protective, 00:15:48.853 --> 00:15:54.263 but convincing yourself that connection is unsafe and now that you understand 00:15:54.263 --> 00:15:58.863 that it's unsafe, you can jump back in and assure yourself that you won't offer 00:15:58.863 --> 00:16:03.363 up anything vulnerable and still try to have meaningful connection with that 00:16:03.453 --> 00:16:09.813 partner, that person that might feel like progress, but I worry that your nervous 00:16:09.813 --> 00:16:11.493 system isn't gonna necessarily buy it. 00:16:12.693 --> 00:16:16.113 'cause living with emotional silence or self-protection starts to drive 00:16:16.113 --> 00:16:17.793 this chronic cortisol spikes. 00:16:18.303 --> 00:16:21.063 You constantly walk around the house worrying that you are gonna 00:16:21.063 --> 00:16:23.493 say the wrong thing or feeling like you're walking on eggshells. 00:16:23.593 --> 00:16:25.513 And I cannot state this enough. 00:16:25.573 --> 00:16:28.693 In a healthy relationship, there isn't a wrong thing. 00:16:29.023 --> 00:16:33.433 You are two completely separate human beings in a relationship, 00:16:33.467 --> 00:16:36.617 going through life for the very first time as an individual and together. 00:16:36.617 --> 00:16:38.957 And so you're going to say things and you're gonna react 00:16:38.957 --> 00:16:40.157 to things in a certain way. 00:16:40.667 --> 00:16:45.637 If you are worried that you are being you in the wrong way, then you are going to 00:16:45.637 --> 00:16:49.147 start to walk on eggshells and worry that I don't want to say this thing that will 00:16:49.147 --> 00:16:50.947 make this other person feel a certain way. 00:16:51.337 --> 00:16:56.527 I hope that they don't feel a certain way and I wanna understand why they may have 00:16:56.527 --> 00:16:59.197 felt hurt by the things that I'm saying. 00:16:59.367 --> 00:17:04.067 I want you to be able to be you in the relationship, both people , and then have 00:17:04.067 --> 00:17:09.017 the tools to be curious about why you feel a certain way about what your partner 00:17:09.017 --> 00:17:11.267 says, or even why they say what they do. 00:17:11.597 --> 00:17:13.907 Like I really wanna understand where does that come from. 00:17:14.003 --> 00:17:17.363 I can say a thing and my partner might have a reaction to it. 00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:21.550 , And this is not meant to sound negative, but that would be a them thing. 00:17:21.697 --> 00:17:25.777 Then I can be very curious about why they reacted the way they did. 00:17:25.827 --> 00:17:26.757 Tell me how you're feeling. 00:17:26.847 --> 00:17:27.897 I do wanna understand. 00:17:28.067 --> 00:17:30.977 Or tell me what you mean by this thing that you said fascinating. 00:17:30.977 --> 00:17:33.797 Because I wanna know you because here's what that means to me, or 00:17:33.797 --> 00:17:34.911 here's what that brought up for me. 00:17:35.121 --> 00:17:40.548 Eventually, with practice It feels safe intimate and connected because if you 00:17:40.548 --> 00:17:44.868 don't have that over time, you move into a semi-permanent fight or flight state. 00:17:45.408 --> 00:17:48.258 And that's how people start to develop symptoms of things like complex 00:17:48.258 --> 00:17:54.408 post-traumatic stress disorder, C-P-T-S-D, some of the symptoms of C-P-T-S-D are 00:17:54.438 --> 00:17:58.318 things like difficulty concentrating or overall emotional numbing, higher 00:17:58.318 --> 00:18:01.948 startle response, digestive issues, sleep problems, memory lapses. 00:18:02.008 --> 00:18:06.658 C-P-T-S-D affects short-term memory because as I understand it, your brain's 00:18:06.658 --> 00:18:08.728 prioritizing survival over recall. 00:18:09.178 --> 00:18:12.118 It literally becomes a blood flow issue in the brain. 00:18:12.598 --> 00:18:15.208 We don't need our short-term memory when we're in fight or flight mode. 00:18:15.548 --> 00:18:18.878 Hippocampus, the little sea horse shaped part of the brain that stores short-term 00:18:18.878 --> 00:18:21.268 memory, will maybe get back to you later. 00:18:21.568 --> 00:18:24.383 And if things aren't making it into your short-term memory, they're not going to 00:18:24.383 --> 00:18:25.883 eventually make it into long-term memory. 00:18:25.883 --> 00:18:26.273 Either. 00:18:26.693 --> 00:18:30.143 We need all hands on deck, all blood flow, getting to the amygdala, the fight 00:18:30.143 --> 00:18:32.573 or flight response because it's go time. 00:18:33.353 --> 00:18:36.713 Your brain over time is saying, Hey, remembering things like a grocery list. 00:18:36.993 --> 00:18:37.893 Not that big of a deal. 00:18:38.013 --> 00:18:39.273 So that becomes optional. 00:18:39.273 --> 00:18:40.953 Staying safe, not so much. 00:18:42.003 --> 00:18:44.523 Matt goes on to say, I still think I can give her the epiphany. 00:18:44.928 --> 00:18:46.608 And there it is, emotional commandment. 00:18:46.608 --> 00:18:50.238 Number five, thou shalt never give thy spouse an epiphany or an aha moment 00:18:50.928 --> 00:18:54.828 trying to give somebody else An epiphany is like trying to breathe for that 00:18:54.828 --> 00:18:57.288 other person, epiphanies, aha moments. 00:18:57.288 --> 00:19:01.708 They're born from introspection of accountability, self confrontation, 00:19:01.768 --> 00:19:03.448 of growth from their own discomfort. 00:19:03.581 --> 00:19:07.961 Those are things that emotionally for people work very hard to avoid. 00:19:08.711 --> 00:19:12.791 Matt then says, if I just explain it the right way, and Matt, honest to 00:19:12.791 --> 00:19:15.441 goodness, bless your heart, , this is your anxious attachment talking. 00:19:15.621 --> 00:19:17.091 I know this one all too well myself. 00:19:17.811 --> 00:19:20.181 Your anxious attachment says, my safety comes from fixing the 00:19:20.181 --> 00:19:24.551 relationship if the relationship is not going well, it's a me thing. 00:19:24.881 --> 00:19:26.231 I need to repair it. 00:19:26.261 --> 00:19:27.521 I must have done something wrong. 00:19:27.698 --> 00:19:29.798 So then your emotional management says. 00:19:29.913 --> 00:19:32.883 My safety comes from managing other people's emotional experience. 00:19:32.883 --> 00:19:36.283 So instead of saying, I wanna be understood, your brain says, I must 00:19:36.283 --> 00:19:37.903 prevent them from getting dysregulated. 00:19:38.713 --> 00:19:40.903 But you're not communicating, you're regulating them. 00:19:41.143 --> 00:19:42.493 And that's a lot of emotional labor. 00:19:42.493 --> 00:19:43.333 That's exhausting. 00:19:43.333 --> 00:19:44.563 It's not real intimacy. 00:19:45.433 --> 00:19:48.403 And then Matt said, our couple's therapists made things worse. 00:19:48.733 --> 00:19:52.423 And this part serves a spotlight as a legitimate couple's therapist. 00:19:53.023 --> 00:19:55.423 When somebody's in a relationship with a narcissistic or an emotionally 00:19:55.423 --> 00:19:57.703 immature partner and they're working with a therapist who may not 00:19:57.703 --> 00:20:01.273 understand that dynamic, something called reactive abuse often shows up. 00:20:01.573 --> 00:20:04.813 And reactive abuse isn't physical abuse, but it can be just as damaging 00:20:05.053 --> 00:20:07.803 or worse, and even more crazy making. 00:20:07.923 --> 00:20:10.353 And it's when the victim is now reacting to being pushed, 00:20:10.593 --> 00:20:11.973 not just their limit, but. 00:20:12.858 --> 00:20:16.368 Past the limit, and it comes out in a lot of different ways. 00:20:16.368 --> 00:20:17.928 Crying, yelling, shutting down. 00:20:17.928 --> 00:20:22.638 Finally, snapping big emotional outbursts because sometimes after months or years of 00:20:22.638 --> 00:20:25.458 being poked and prodded and minimized, and being the one who has felt like they're 00:20:25.458 --> 00:20:29.988 trying to do more and more and not having their needs met or being made to feel 00:20:29.988 --> 00:20:34.458 crazy about the things that they're asking for and feeling gaslit and dismissed and 00:20:34.458 --> 00:20:38.238 criticized and invalidated, the person who has finally gotten their partner to 00:20:38.238 --> 00:20:42.258 come to therapy, it's like their central nervous system can't take it anymore. 00:20:43.538 --> 00:20:47.588 Their emotionally immature partner puts on an Oscar worthy performance 00:20:47.678 --> 00:20:48.803 right in front of the therapist. 00:20:48.803 --> 00:20:52.898 I've seen this happen, and all of a sudden the partner who has been doing 00:20:52.958 --> 00:20:56.558 the majority, if not all of the heavy emotional lifting in the relationship, 00:20:56.948 --> 00:20:59.048 it is like their own subconscious things. 00:20:59.708 --> 00:21:02.768 I finally have my partner in a room with a professional. 00:21:03.008 --> 00:21:04.148 They're taking notes. 00:21:04.238 --> 00:21:05.048 They look the part. 00:21:05.738 --> 00:21:08.258 Hopefully now this therapist will see what's going on. 00:21:08.813 --> 00:21:13.253 And maybe tell me I'm not crazy, maybe even help, maybe even rescue. 00:21:13.883 --> 00:21:14.873 And then it doesn't happen. 00:21:15.683 --> 00:21:16.613 And so they lose it. 00:21:17.423 --> 00:21:21.713 And then the emotionally immature partner points at the reaction and says, see this? 00:21:21.743 --> 00:21:23.723 What am I supposed to do when he's doing this? 00:21:23.873 --> 00:21:26.963 Seriously, I am so glad that you're seeing this doc because maybe 00:21:26.963 --> 00:21:28.013 now you can get through to him. 00:21:28.793 --> 00:21:31.973 And unfortunately, far too often the therapist does now 00:21:31.973 --> 00:21:33.023 think that you're the problem. 00:21:33.023 --> 00:21:36.743 And I'm so sorry to say that because therapists who are unfamiliar with this 00:21:36.743 --> 00:21:40.493 dynamic often validate the wrong person simply because one partner appears 00:21:40.493 --> 00:21:43.073 calm, but the other appears reactive. 00:21:43.583 --> 00:21:46.493 But calm does not always mean healthy and reactive does not always 00:21:46.493 --> 00:21:48.691 mean unstable in that scenario. 00:21:48.691 --> 00:21:50.041 The context really matters. 00:21:50.641 --> 00:21:52.261 And unfortunately, this is common. 00:21:52.951 --> 00:21:55.591 Emotionally immature people often perform well in therapy because 00:21:55.591 --> 00:21:57.061 they lack a solid sense of self. 00:21:57.451 --> 00:21:59.521 It's whatever mask they can put on and wear. 00:21:59.791 --> 00:22:01.791 , I think the words of, , Ursula the Sea Witch. 00:22:01.791 --> 00:22:02.781 It's what they live for. 00:22:02.881 --> 00:22:03.631 It's what they do. 00:22:04.201 --> 00:22:07.831 So they may present confidently, they can be emotionally convincing. 00:22:08.041 --> 00:22:11.761 They can use this linear logic where they know the next logical step. 00:22:12.181 --> 00:22:15.331 And meanwhile, the pathologically kind partner presents with doubt 00:22:15.631 --> 00:22:18.721 and self blame and tentativeness and fear of conflict and worry. 00:22:19.141 --> 00:22:21.481 A lot of worry about retribution when they leave the office. 00:22:21.481 --> 00:22:23.761 Unfortunately, if that happens after you leave the therapist's 00:22:23.761 --> 00:22:24.931 office, that's not okay. 00:22:26.101 --> 00:22:28.021 If you hear, I can't believe you threw me under the bus like 00:22:28.021 --> 00:22:29.251 that after I finally went in. 00:22:30.061 --> 00:22:33.061 So therapists who don't understand emotional maturity can unintentionally 00:22:33.061 --> 00:22:34.921 reinforce the wrong narrative. 00:22:34.971 --> 00:22:38.181 And maybe even more unfortunate, even a decent therapist who understands 00:22:38.181 --> 00:22:41.571 the dynamic can push the narcissist too hard, too quickly, and then 00:22:41.571 --> 00:22:44.181 they leave and use that against the pathologically kind partner. 00:22:44.451 --> 00:22:44.841 Oh yeah. 00:22:44.871 --> 00:22:47.331 Found somebody now who's just gonna agree with you and gang up 00:22:47.331 --> 00:22:48.771 on me, and it costs a lot of money. 00:22:49.176 --> 00:22:52.356 I'm not doing that and you certainly can't use my money to see them. 00:22:53.556 --> 00:22:57.546 And I also wanna acknowledge, as a couple's therapist, it is not helpful to 00:22:57.546 --> 00:23:00.546 go to couple's therapy with a narcissistic or any kind of abusive partner. 00:23:00.786 --> 00:23:05.976 But while that's the right thing to say and it is true, I also know, and 00:23:05.976 --> 00:23:09.306 I wanna acknowledge that people don't even really recognize what's going on 00:23:09.306 --> 00:23:12.666 in their relationships more often than not because that's the relationship 00:23:12.666 --> 00:23:16.866 they know and they got into it because it might have been the familiar, 00:23:16.956 --> 00:23:18.756 what they saw modeled in childhood. 00:23:19.566 --> 00:23:22.206 I think it's fair to acknowledge that going into couples therapy, they 00:23:22.206 --> 00:23:24.816 still maybe don't know that they're in a relationship with a narcissistic 00:23:24.816 --> 00:23:26.106 or an emotionally immature partner. 00:23:26.356 --> 00:23:30.066 It can almost feel like something that they're ruling out or something that 00:23:30.066 --> 00:23:33.846 they never would've understood how challenging or bad their relationship is 00:23:33.846 --> 00:23:35.556 until they saw that happen in therapy. 00:23:35.976 --> 00:23:37.326 'cause you just don't know what you don't know. 00:23:37.326 --> 00:23:39.846 And it often takes going to therapy to really see what's going on. 00:23:40.446 --> 00:23:43.456 Matt said she used whatever came up in therapy against me, this is the 00:23:43.456 --> 00:23:46.756 attack surface because the emotionally immature person interprets any kind of 00:23:46.756 --> 00:23:50.596 vulnerability as leverage or ammunition or access into your inner world. 00:23:50.896 --> 00:23:54.346 It becomes this future argument that's just waiting to happen, and I don't want 00:23:54.346 --> 00:23:58.126 to go all or nothing, but depending on the severity of emotional immaturity 00:23:58.126 --> 00:24:02.446 or if we're moving into narcissistic traits or tendencies or full blown 00:24:02.446 --> 00:24:04.006 narcissistic personality disorder. 00:24:04.501 --> 00:24:08.791 It can go on this spectrum from, it often feels like an attack surface to 00:24:08.881 --> 00:24:12.631 literally anything you reveal becomes a file that they store in this internal 00:24:12.631 --> 00:24:17.431 cabinet labeled used during conflict or to make person feel bad at any moment. 00:24:17.941 --> 00:24:19.021 , That is not a partnership. 00:24:19.891 --> 00:24:23.371 What can be difficult is it can feel like the other person doesn't understand. 00:24:23.941 --> 00:24:26.371 I watch people in my office say, no, I really wanna understand 00:24:26.371 --> 00:24:27.121 where you're coming from. 00:24:27.661 --> 00:24:31.231 And then the person will share something and even with nice mouth noises and 00:24:31.231 --> 00:24:35.491 kind eyes and facial gestures, and the person will then say, okay, but that's 00:24:35.491 --> 00:24:37.591 not even true, or, that's ridiculous. 00:24:37.591 --> 00:24:41.041 Or, you know that that isn't the way that I really am 00:24:41.041 --> 00:24:41.941 showing up in this relationship. 00:24:41.941 --> 00:24:44.251 I can't believe you even said that, even though they just asked. 00:24:44.251 --> 00:24:47.221 I wanna understand what you are experiencing and how you're thinking. 00:24:47.821 --> 00:24:51.301 He then goes on to say that at 2:00 AM he scrolls, TikTok, and he says, scrolling 00:24:51.301 --> 00:24:52.711 makes me feel like I'm not crazy. 00:24:52.871 --> 00:24:54.461 There's a lot happening in that sentence. 00:24:54.971 --> 00:24:57.071 'cause what he's describing isn't just a bad habit. 00:24:57.071 --> 00:24:58.721 It's not just mindless phone use. 00:24:58.721 --> 00:25:01.751 It's actually what I think a lot of people do, or at least it's a story. 00:25:01.751 --> 00:25:05.651 Their brains are telling them that they're trying to use the phone in that situation 00:25:05.651 --> 00:25:08.241 to co-regulate to calm yourself down. 00:25:08.271 --> 00:25:10.471 Now, that doesn't mean it's the ideal way. 00:25:11.041 --> 00:25:14.401 One could work more toward meditation, reading a book, having 00:25:14.401 --> 00:25:15.751 some sort of a nighttime routine. 00:25:16.261 --> 00:25:20.011 'cause in this version of co-regulation that Matt's talking about, our nervous 00:25:20.011 --> 00:25:23.131 system's looking for some certainty, it really wants to alleviate the discomfort 00:25:23.131 --> 00:25:24.691 and it's trying to use your phone. 00:25:25.126 --> 00:25:28.876 And other people's stories and other things as a way to do so, because 00:25:29.236 --> 00:25:32.386 normally our nervous systems settle when we feel understood or seen or 00:25:32.386 --> 00:25:34.096 connected or safe with another person. 00:25:34.216 --> 00:25:36.856 And ideally that's gonna happen in a relationship with a partner 00:25:36.856 --> 00:25:40.186 who can sit with you and hear you and help your nervous system 00:25:40.186 --> 00:25:43.576 relax and hold your hand and get oxytocin to cuddle hormone flowing. 00:25:44.296 --> 00:25:45.436 Or you can learn to self-soothe. 00:25:45.766 --> 00:25:49.906 You can learn to be a meditative zen guru and calm your own nervous system down. 00:25:49.906 --> 00:25:51.466 And I'm not being facetious with that. 00:25:51.586 --> 00:25:53.176 That is self-soothing. 00:25:53.176 --> 00:25:55.186 That is your self validation. 00:25:55.786 --> 00:25:58.426 But when the person who's supposed to be your safe place is actually also 00:25:58.426 --> 00:26:00.076 the source of your anxiety and trauma, 00:26:00.126 --> 00:26:02.496 your body still goes looking for regulation, it's just trying 00:26:02.496 --> 00:26:03.816 to find it somewhere else. 00:26:04.416 --> 00:26:07.806 So at 2:00 AM he ends up co-regulating with strangers on the internet. 00:26:08.136 --> 00:26:10.206 And that's absolutely not pathetic, Matt. 00:26:10.686 --> 00:26:11.406 It's adaptive. 00:26:12.111 --> 00:26:15.711 That's his brain saying, I need to feel less alone. 00:26:15.831 --> 00:26:17.091 And this is about all I have. 00:26:17.691 --> 00:26:19.041 Here's where the story turns. 00:26:19.521 --> 00:26:22.861 'cause your phone, your apps, the algorithm, none of it , is neutral. 00:26:23.431 --> 00:26:26.971 And yes, I'm about to sound like an old man yelling at kids to get off my lawn. 00:26:26.971 --> 00:26:30.581 But your phone, the slot machines, narcissists, they all deliver something 00:26:30.581 --> 00:26:31.871 called intermittent reinforcement. 00:26:32.441 --> 00:26:35.501 It's the same reward pattern that creates some of the strongest behavioral 00:26:35.501 --> 00:26:37.631 bonds we know, including trauma bonds. 00:26:38.321 --> 00:26:40.001 You don't get validation every time you swipe. 00:26:40.031 --> 00:26:43.451 You get to hear you get it there, a video that nails your experience 00:26:43.581 --> 00:26:45.141 , and then a whole lot that don't. 00:26:45.591 --> 00:26:49.278 And then another one that feels like it was made just for you, , that sometimes 00:26:49.278 --> 00:26:50.478 it hits and sometimes it doesn't. 00:26:50.478 --> 00:26:50.838 Rhythm. 00:26:51.318 --> 00:26:53.718 That's exactly what makes your brain chase it even harder. 00:26:54.108 --> 00:26:57.108 The same device or the same human that can provide you with 00:26:57.108 --> 00:27:01.218 punishment can also deliver you a reward that is a trauma bond. 00:27:01.878 --> 00:27:03.738 And James clear's book Atomic Habits. 00:27:03.738 --> 00:27:05.598 He has a fascinating take on the dopamine system. 00:27:05.598 --> 00:27:05.988 He says. 00:27:06.363 --> 00:27:09.963 Dopamine isn't just about getting the reward, it floods 00:27:09.963 --> 00:27:11.643 in anticipation of the reward. 00:27:12.033 --> 00:27:15.093 So if you're laying in bed scrolling, looking for certainty, hoping to 00:27:15.093 --> 00:27:17.823 co-regulate, wanting to find that one video that will finally make 00:27:17.823 --> 00:27:21.603 sense of it all your brain's kind of whispering to you, maybe the next video 00:27:21.663 --> 00:27:22.803 will finally make you feel better. 00:27:23.283 --> 00:27:27.183 Maybe the next one is going to explain your marriage or give you 00:27:27.183 --> 00:27:28.983 the tools to not feel as bad anymore. 00:27:28.983 --> 00:27:30.903 Maybe the next one's gonna prove that you're not crazy. 00:27:31.533 --> 00:27:33.753 So that anticipation is what keeps your thumb moving. 00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:37.939 And it's also why it can start to feel so compulsive because your nervous system is 00:27:37.939 --> 00:27:40.949 distressed and it thinks, man, if I just keep going, I'll eventually land on this 00:27:40.949 --> 00:27:42.539 thing that's gonna make that feeling stop. 00:27:43.249 --> 00:27:45.499 What do you do if you recognize yourself in this pattern? 00:27:46.219 --> 00:27:48.439 One simple shift is to put some structure around it. 00:27:48.979 --> 00:27:52.789 You can try to set a timer before you open the app so there's a built-in 00:27:52.789 --> 00:27:54.319 stopping point instead of endless. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:55.759 Just one more, just one more. 00:27:55.789 --> 00:27:58.909 I remember one of the first times I heard of Mel Robbins, the author of the 00:27:58.909 --> 00:28:00.619 Let Them book, which I really enjoyed. 00:28:01.009 --> 00:28:04.159 It was something she had about a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 countdown. 00:28:04.159 --> 00:28:06.379 When you're scrolling on social media, and I have to use that on 00:28:06.379 --> 00:28:10.803 occasion, even still, you start counting 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and then quit. 00:28:11.763 --> 00:28:14.613 Or there's another way you can look at this going in, decide what you're 00:28:14.613 --> 00:28:15.779 going to do in the first place. 00:28:15.779 --> 00:28:17.459 Are you looking for connection, education? 00:28:17.459 --> 00:28:18.239 Just a laugh. 00:28:18.819 --> 00:28:21.279 You're scrolling with at least a little bit of purpose instead 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.469 of trying to just fill some void that you're not even aware of. 00:28:24.264 --> 00:28:27.348 And then when your timer goes off, you can't just drop the phone 00:28:27.348 --> 00:28:30.798 and hope for the best transition into something more grounded. 00:28:30.798 --> 00:28:33.918 Stand up, stretch, grab water, take some deep breaths, turn on a light. 00:28:33.918 --> 00:28:35.028 Step outside for a second. 00:28:35.568 --> 00:28:36.918 Give your body a clear signal. 00:28:37.128 --> 00:28:40.341 I am now back into the real world zero part of this is meant to shame 00:28:40.341 --> 00:28:43.311 you for being on your phone because we're pretty much all on our phones. 00:28:43.461 --> 00:28:45.771 That is where we are now as humans. 00:28:45.771 --> 00:28:46.311 You're not weak. 00:28:46.311 --> 00:28:49.971 You're being a human and you're a human whose brain and nervous system are doing 00:28:49.971 --> 00:28:54.471 exactly what they're designed to do while using a device that it did not anticipate 00:28:54.531 --> 00:28:58.971 would be here at this point, a device that's been designed by thousands of very 00:28:58.971 --> 00:29:02.211 smart people whose job is actually to keep you engaged for as long as possible. 00:29:02.344 --> 00:29:04.444 When you understand that, you can start meeting yourself 00:29:04.444 --> 00:29:05.449 with a little more compassion. 00:29:06.274 --> 00:29:09.504 From that place, you can start making a little bit better choices. 00:29:09.831 --> 00:29:13.011 I think we are ready to get to the good stuff when Matt brings up the 00:29:13.011 --> 00:29:16.521 narcissistic collapse, because this is one of those terms that is a lot of 00:29:16.521 --> 00:29:20.091 places online, and I think you might experience a little confirmation bias 00:29:20.191 --> 00:29:21.518 because if you haven't heard the concept. 00:29:21.518 --> 00:29:24.218 Of narcissistic collapse, buckle up because your phone's probably 00:29:24.218 --> 00:29:27.578 listening to you right now and you will find content that talks about 00:29:27.578 --> 00:29:30.908 it or it's been there and you haven't necessarily been sure what it means. 00:29:31.508 --> 00:29:34.298 Now, my professional opinion, I don't think it's ever quite explained. 00:29:34.348 --> 00:29:37.288 , And I wanna say accurately, but really in a way that I would 00:29:37.288 --> 00:29:38.818 like for it to be explained. 00:29:38.968 --> 00:29:42.358 Yet I am also claiming to not be the narcissist, but I'm saying it needs 00:29:42.358 --> 00:29:45.653 to be explained the way that I think it should because , the internet 00:29:45.653 --> 00:29:47.903 loves a dramatic version of anything. 00:29:48.413 --> 00:29:52.283 The mask falls off the villain is exposed, the fans go wild, and suddenly 00:29:52.283 --> 00:29:54.803 the emotionally immature partner has a moment of cosmic clarity. 00:29:55.553 --> 00:29:58.943 But if we strip away the TikTok mythology and look at what the research 00:29:58.993 --> 00:30:01.393 and the clinical literature actually says, what we're really talking 00:30:01.393 --> 00:30:03.373 about isn't justice or an awakening. 00:30:03.943 --> 00:30:06.613 It's the moment when an emotionally immature person's 00:30:06.613 --> 00:30:07.993 coping system gets overwhelmed. 00:30:08.513 --> 00:30:11.273 What researchers have been trying to describe are decades under 00:30:11.273 --> 00:30:15.473 terms like narcissistic injury or decompensation is basically this. 00:30:15.616 --> 00:30:18.286 What happens when an emotionally immature person's coping system gets 00:30:18.286 --> 00:30:23.026 overwhelmed, their defenses crack, not because they've grown, because the system 00:30:23.026 --> 00:30:24.346 stopped working the way it used to. 00:30:25.036 --> 00:30:28.216 The concept was originated by these researchers named Kohut and 00:30:28.216 --> 00:30:31.156 Kornberg, which sounds like a great comedy team back in the forties. 00:30:31.309 --> 00:30:33.199 , But it's this concept of a narcissistic injury. 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:34.799 It's essentially an ego wound. 00:30:35.219 --> 00:30:38.249 It's what happens when admiration or control or validation 00:30:38.249 --> 00:30:39.539 is all of a sudden removed. 00:30:39.989 --> 00:30:41.939 So maybe you say, Hey, I'm setting a boundary. 00:30:42.149 --> 00:30:44.219 If you are going to yell, then I'm gonna leave. 00:30:44.729 --> 00:30:47.279 You are sounding calm and firm and grounded, and you've been 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.599 doing a lot of work to get there. 00:30:48.869 --> 00:30:50.309 You actually follow through on the boundary. 00:30:51.029 --> 00:30:54.423 So to that emotionally immature person, that boundary feels like humiliation 00:30:54.543 --> 00:30:56.253 or definitely a loss of control. 00:30:56.493 --> 00:30:59.733 And in response, they're gonna rage or collapse into despair. 00:30:59.733 --> 00:31:04.323 And if that no longer works, if that button is gone from you, that's when you 00:31:04.323 --> 00:31:06.123 can start to see this narcissistic injury. 00:31:06.303 --> 00:31:09.573 And it's not because you did anything wrong, it's actually because 00:31:09.633 --> 00:31:12.483 their fragile sense of superiority just took a real hard poke. 00:31:13.533 --> 00:31:17.223 So for people who depend so heavily on denial and blame shifting and 00:31:17.223 --> 00:31:20.223 grandiosity to keep their whole internal world from feeling too shaky. 00:31:21.153 --> 00:31:24.336 When a stressor pushes past their threshold, like if they're criticized by 00:31:24.336 --> 00:31:28.146 a boss or somebody's genuinely calling them out, or even just having a bad 00:31:28.146 --> 00:31:31.416 day, or they don't feel like they have the control that they're used to, they 00:31:31.416 --> 00:31:33.216 don't just get irritated or frustrated. 00:31:33.216 --> 00:31:36.586 Their entire defensive structure can , start to collapse. 00:31:36.769 --> 00:31:40.489 Maybe they spiral and rage for hours or shut down completely for days at a time. 00:31:40.489 --> 00:31:43.069 And it's not about the event itself, it's about how fragile their 00:31:43.069 --> 00:31:44.659 whole internal scaffolding was. 00:31:45.499 --> 00:31:48.739 So for the emotionally immature shame isn't just uncomfortable, it's 00:31:48.739 --> 00:31:50.509 intolerable, it feels annihilating. 00:31:50.509 --> 00:31:53.449 When you say something as simple as that really hurt my feelings, you're 00:31:53.449 --> 00:31:54.679 not just giving feedback to them. 00:31:54.679 --> 00:31:56.749 You're potentially threatening the entire story. 00:31:56.749 --> 00:32:00.139 They tell themselves about who they are, and this is some of the genesis, 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:03.329 stories of confabulation creating a new narrative, a new memory. 00:32:03.629 --> 00:32:06.249 'cause they cannot be the person that has done what you're accusing them of. 00:32:07.004 --> 00:32:08.954 That's why gaslighting comes so easily. 00:32:08.984 --> 00:32:11.474 They will flip instantly to one extreme or the other. 00:32:11.504 --> 00:32:14.684 Either they may withdraw so completely that you can't even 00:32:14.684 --> 00:32:15.914 reach them or they explode. 00:32:15.944 --> 00:32:17.084 Oh, so now I'm the monster. 00:32:17.084 --> 00:32:17.924 Everything's my fault. 00:32:18.524 --> 00:32:19.574 That's their shame talking. 00:32:19.664 --> 00:32:20.804 It's definitely not insight. 00:32:21.024 --> 00:32:25.944 So to get really, really clear, a narcissistic collab isn't 00:32:25.974 --> 00:32:27.609 justice all of a sudden happening. 00:32:27.684 --> 00:32:29.034 It's not revelation. 00:32:29.484 --> 00:32:31.734 It's not an aha moment of accountability. 00:32:31.854 --> 00:32:36.264 It's not even insight and it's really not the mask falling off forever. 00:32:37.134 --> 00:32:39.774 That's the fantasy version that feels great at 2:00 AM 00:32:39.924 --> 00:32:41.304 and gets a whole lot of clicks. 00:32:41.784 --> 00:32:44.934 'cause people want that kind of certainty, but it doesn't really match. 00:32:44.934 --> 00:32:45.924 Human psychology. 00:32:46.075 --> 00:32:48.445 Change takes a tremendous amount of time. 00:32:49.165 --> 00:32:54.205 And people who are in the position they're in, who lack that ability to 00:32:54.205 --> 00:33:00.145 self confront, whose ego is so fragile, it has taken their entire life to build 00:33:00.175 --> 00:33:02.065 up to the point where it is right now. 00:33:02.860 --> 00:33:05.520 So a narcissistic collapse is a type of overload. 00:33:06.030 --> 00:33:09.030 It's a defensive system that has been overloaded. 00:33:09.270 --> 00:33:11.340 It's temporary dysregulation. 00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:15.090 It's a moment where their fantasy of their self image flickers. 00:33:15.540 --> 00:33:16.800 It doesn't evaporate though. 00:33:16.800 --> 00:33:19.320 And most importantly, it's not the beginning of a transformation. 00:33:19.320 --> 00:33:23.340 It's more of a, a beginning of a cycle that's gonna reset in some situations. 00:33:23.340 --> 00:33:27.960 It can lead to the narcissistic discard, where now you are dead to them and 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.500 real life relationships collapse looks a lot less than a grand reckoning 00:33:31.590 --> 00:33:35.280 and a lot more like them erupting into rage over something small. 00:33:35.310 --> 00:33:37.830 And then they go silent for days and they threaten to leave and they accuse 00:33:37.830 --> 00:33:42.180 you of abandoning them and they fall into maybe even a depression like state. 00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:44.926 But refuse help going into that victim mentality. 00:33:44.956 --> 00:33:47.536 Maybe they rewrite the last argument, so it's all your fault. 00:33:47.536 --> 00:33:51.656 Or they try to pull you back in with guilt or fear or pity, or they 00:33:51.656 --> 00:33:54.916 play the victim so convincingly that you start questioning your reality. 00:33:55.786 --> 00:33:57.016 So collapse is not a turning point. 00:33:57.016 --> 00:34:00.826 It is more of a destabilization, it's a flare up in a long term 00:34:00.826 --> 00:34:02.296 pattern of emotional immaturity. 00:34:02.816 --> 00:34:05.896 Unless the person chooses real work, remorse, accountability, 00:34:05.896 --> 00:34:09.406 insight, self confrontation, learning about their discomfort, tolerance, 00:34:09.646 --> 00:34:11.266 collapse doesn't lead anywhere new. 00:34:11.866 --> 00:34:14.566 It just clears the stage for the next round of the same play. 00:34:14.836 --> 00:34:17.596 It's like the huge big blowup, the brush fire that clears all 00:34:17.596 --> 00:34:20.626 the ground so that they can grow this false sense of self again. 00:34:21.121 --> 00:34:22.231 It's not a moment of awakening. 00:34:22.231 --> 00:34:26.101 It's more like they hit a moment of being overwhelmed, and that's a 00:34:26.101 --> 00:34:29.011 very different story than the one the internet tells you at 2:00 AM. 00:34:29.881 --> 00:34:32.311 Here's the part that rarely gets talked about when people talk 00:34:32.311 --> 00:34:33.721 about a narcissistic collapse. 00:34:34.171 --> 00:34:37.141 A collapse does not happen because the narcissistic or extremely 00:34:37.141 --> 00:34:39.811 emotionally immature person suddenly wakes up one day and decides to 00:34:39.811 --> 00:34:41.281 self-reflect or self confront. 00:34:42.631 --> 00:34:45.031 The collapse happens because you've changed. 00:34:45.811 --> 00:34:48.811 Their narcissistic collapse happens after you've been doing your own 00:34:48.811 --> 00:34:51.961 work long enough that the system can't run the way it used to. 00:34:52.441 --> 00:34:56.071 And often that takes months or even sometimes years of learning how your 00:34:56.071 --> 00:35:00.271 nervous system works, figuring out what's a you thing versus what's a them thing. 00:35:00.811 --> 00:35:04.321 Pulling your sense of self out of their hands and taking it back into your own, 00:35:04.921 --> 00:35:08.701 noticing the attack surfaces that you unknowingly offered time and time again. 00:35:09.241 --> 00:35:12.631 And understanding things like projection and truly understanding and embracing 00:35:12.631 --> 00:35:16.081 and trusting that I cannot give them that aha moment or the epiphany 00:35:16.141 --> 00:35:17.491 that I have to stop doing that. 00:35:18.001 --> 00:35:20.011 And it's the beginning point of differentiation. 00:35:20.341 --> 00:35:23.791 And the truth is, most people don't reach this point, not because they're weak, 00:35:24.211 --> 00:35:25.831 but they may not find the right tools. 00:35:26.101 --> 00:35:30.151 They have no vocabulary to talk about what we're talking about right now. 00:35:30.541 --> 00:35:33.811 And also because it's exhausting work to slowly pull yourself out of a one 00:35:33.811 --> 00:35:37.081 down dynamic that you've been stuck in for years over and over again. 00:35:37.318 --> 00:35:41.158 So that's why paradoxically, a narcissistic collapse is actually a 00:35:41.158 --> 00:35:43.648 sign of your progress, not theirs. 00:35:44.368 --> 00:35:46.078 They aren't collapsing because they've changed. 00:35:46.078 --> 00:35:47.638 They're collapsing because you have. 00:35:48.748 --> 00:35:52.318 You are no longer providing the same emotional fuel, the same emotional labor, 00:35:52.318 --> 00:35:56.578 the same caretaking, the same reassurance, the same falling on the sword, the same 00:35:56.578 --> 00:35:59.038 self-sacrifice over and over again. 00:35:59.428 --> 00:36:02.308 The same reflexive repair, the same endless efforts to create 00:36:02.308 --> 00:36:03.898 the relationship for both of you. 00:36:04.498 --> 00:36:08.548 You've stopped feeding their supply or the system, and the system is starting 00:36:08.548 --> 00:36:11.938 to struggle and it's starting to glitch and it's starting to break down. 00:36:12.463 --> 00:36:12.523 Yeah. 00:36:13.033 --> 00:36:15.613 This is where things like the concept of differentiation 00:36:15.613 --> 00:36:17.263 and my go-to is David Arch's. 00:36:17.293 --> 00:36:19.213 Four points of Balance becomes so critical. 00:36:19.693 --> 00:36:23.023 'cause differentiation is the process of constructing a self that is strong 00:36:23.023 --> 00:36:26.503 enough to stand there, steady, even when the other person is spiraling. 00:36:27.253 --> 00:36:28.303 I haven't talked about this in a while. 00:36:28.303 --> 00:36:31.903 It seemed like every podcast I did for, I swear, over a year or so, I brought up the 00:36:31.903 --> 00:36:33.583 four points of balance of differentiation. 00:36:33.943 --> 00:36:36.943 So let's go through this, because when somebody begins this work, it usually 00:36:36.943 --> 00:36:39.163 starts with a quiet realization over time. 00:36:39.163 --> 00:36:42.193 Almost like, wait, I cannot keep explaining myself and 00:36:42.193 --> 00:36:43.603 understanding it's not working. 00:36:44.183 --> 00:36:47.303 I can't keep earning safety by trying to make myself small and 00:36:47.303 --> 00:36:50.003 trying to convince them to see me is actually not working at all. 00:36:50.353 --> 00:36:52.483 I feel like I'm abandoning myself, betraying myself. 00:36:53.098 --> 00:36:54.928 Those are the seeds of differentiation. 00:36:55.108 --> 00:36:57.268 And differentiation is not about confrontation. 00:36:57.328 --> 00:36:58.708 It's not about withdrawing love. 00:36:58.768 --> 00:37:00.868 It's not about giving ultimatums or toughening up. 00:37:01.378 --> 00:37:05.158 Differentiation is holding onto yourself, having a solid but flexible sense of self. 00:37:05.698 --> 00:37:09.268 You start to become somebody who can have a different opinion, a different feeling, 00:37:09.268 --> 00:37:12.298 a different desire without needing someone else to tell you that that's okay. 00:37:12.688 --> 00:37:15.928 And without melting down, without apologizing for your own thoughts 00:37:15.928 --> 00:37:20.098 and feelings, but not saying them in a defensive way, offering them up as 00:37:20.278 --> 00:37:23.560 something, again, amuse that we can interact with and talk about without 00:37:23.560 --> 00:37:26.830 trying to convince the other person that they have to understand it. 00:37:26.830 --> 00:37:31.000 It would be so great if they did, but that's gonna take genuine curiosity. 00:37:31.270 --> 00:37:34.690 And for them to get out of their own ego and to not think that they're right 00:37:34.690 --> 00:37:37.750 and you're wrong, that there's even a right and wrong way about everything. 00:37:39.160 --> 00:37:42.430 You stop performing emotional caretaking, and you stop editing yourself to 00:37:42.430 --> 00:37:45.310 avoid their reaction, and you stop rushing in to fix their discomfort. 00:37:46.180 --> 00:37:49.840 And that alone removes a huge amount of supply from the dynamic. 00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:50.860 Now's. 00:37:51.160 --> 00:37:54.400 Second point of balance is about quieting the, I need you to validate my 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.320 reality reflex that we all seem to have. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.650 It's about learning how to have a quiet mind, a strong heart. 00:37:59.650 --> 00:38:00.940 Learning how to self-soothe. 00:38:00.970 --> 00:38:04.990 Learning how to regulate your own nervous system, and realizing I don't need their 00:38:04.990 --> 00:38:07.334 approval to feel okay or to feel steady 00:38:08.204 --> 00:38:12.605 . It would be great if they did, if they really wanted to understand and 00:38:12.605 --> 00:38:17.315 know me, but I need to quit trying to make them see me and understand me. 00:38:17.975 --> 00:38:19.985 I need to start seeing myself and what I'm doing. 00:38:20.105 --> 00:38:22.685 I need to be able to understand my own self and behaviors. 00:38:23.195 --> 00:38:25.955 You don't need their agreement to feel like what you're doing is okay. 00:38:26.330 --> 00:38:28.940 This is where the collapse starts to rumble underneath the surface. 00:38:29.420 --> 00:38:32.660 'cause the emotionally immature partner senses a shift that they can't articulate. 00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:34.820 It's as if they're thinking almost out loud. 00:38:35.180 --> 00:38:36.620 You're not as easy to control. 00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:40.010 You're starting to do and think about things all on your own. 00:38:40.010 --> 00:38:40.670 And I don't like it. 00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:41.750 It makes me feel bad. 00:38:42.620 --> 00:38:45.080 And I'll hear people say things like, Hey, something's different about you. 00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:46.610 I don't like the way that you're doing this now. 00:38:47.330 --> 00:38:49.310 They'll even weaponize the concept of differentiation. 00:38:49.310 --> 00:38:50.630 It feels like you're being pretty selfish. 00:38:50.930 --> 00:38:52.340 I don't like the way that feels. 00:38:52.910 --> 00:38:54.650 But you're not as easily controlled. 00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:56.090 You're not as emotionally pliable. 00:38:56.120 --> 00:38:59.030 You're not giving them the reaction that they need to feel stable. 00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:02.870 The third point of balance is about learning how to stay calm, how to calm 00:39:02.870 --> 00:39:06.740 your reactions, and learning how to stay grounded in close relationships. 00:39:07.240 --> 00:39:10.720 You don't have to go big or overboard and you don't play small. 00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:11.590 You stop defending. 00:39:11.590 --> 00:39:12.580 You stop taking the bait. 00:39:12.580 --> 00:39:17.610 You pause your stillness feels to them like abandonment or defiance because 00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:20.940 for so many years, most likely, your reactivity propped up their stability. 00:39:21.660 --> 00:39:25.140 You would go too big and didn't like the way that you felt after you 00:39:25.140 --> 00:39:28.320 got loud or angry, or you'd go the opposite direction and play small 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:29.670 and not feel good about that either. 00:39:30.270 --> 00:39:34.710 And then Shana's fourth point of balance is this integrity of self, this meaningful 00:39:34.710 --> 00:39:38.100 endurance, this understanding that growth is going to come from discomfort. 00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:41.910 And you can sit through it, you can survive and the world still spins 00:39:41.910 --> 00:39:45.060 when they collapse, you no longer hand your identity over to them. 00:39:45.450 --> 00:39:48.150 You can hold your boundaries without being performative, and you can 00:39:48.150 --> 00:39:50.880 take ownership for the things that you are doing in the relationship. 00:39:51.270 --> 00:39:54.210 And you can do that and it's okay, and you're not gonna 00:39:54.210 --> 00:39:55.770 project them onto your partner. 00:39:55.830 --> 00:39:58.090 It's, I did the thing I did because I did it. 00:39:58.240 --> 00:39:59.050 That's a me thing. 00:39:59.200 --> 00:40:01.000 And you can even start taking effort to change 00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:05.160 after you take ownership, not for agreeing to do the work that they need to do 00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:09.300 themselves, this is the piece that makes the narcissistic collapse even possible. 00:40:09.930 --> 00:40:12.840 'cause you're no longer reinforcing their fantasy self-image. 00:40:13.200 --> 00:40:14.910 You stop participating in the illusion. 00:40:14.910 --> 00:40:18.450 And when you stop participating, they may start to unravel, not because 00:40:18.450 --> 00:40:21.480 they want to explore themselves, but because their system is destabilizing. 00:40:22.515 --> 00:40:26.175 The attack surface concept describes how your vulnerability and your honesty 00:40:26.225 --> 00:40:29.045 and your emotional openness become weapons in the hands of the emotionally 00:40:29.045 --> 00:40:30.455 immature, narcissistic partner. 00:40:30.845 --> 00:40:32.645 And here's again, another paradox. 00:40:32.645 --> 00:40:35.735 Before you start doing this work, you'll hand out your attack surfaces like candy. 00:40:36.185 --> 00:40:36.995 You'll explain. 00:40:36.995 --> 00:40:38.675 You justify, you reveal your fears. 00:40:38.675 --> 00:40:39.935 You try to repair their feelings. 00:40:39.935 --> 00:40:43.355 You try to preemptively soothe them to them, that's free supply. 00:40:43.985 --> 00:40:47.705 But when you begin to differentiate, you stop oversharing to prove your intentions. 00:40:47.705 --> 00:40:49.895 You stop narrating your emotions for their comfort. 00:40:50.165 --> 00:40:51.695 You stop managing their reactions. 00:40:51.695 --> 00:40:54.515 You stop giving them the information they use now to control the 00:40:54.515 --> 00:40:56.475 dynamic, either now or later. 00:40:57.165 --> 00:40:59.865 So you actually start to shrink that attack surface without becoming 00:40:59.865 --> 00:41:01.485 cold or withdrawn or defensive. 00:41:01.965 --> 00:41:04.455 'cause now they have less to work with, what used to give them power. 00:41:04.455 --> 00:41:07.915 Your vulnerability now starts to give them anxiety For somebody 00:41:07.915 --> 00:41:09.685 emotionally immature or narcissistic. 00:41:09.855 --> 00:41:12.375 Your growth equals their loss of control. 00:41:13.005 --> 00:41:15.225 Your boundaries feel to them like abandon. 00:41:15.855 --> 00:41:20.475 Your defining of yourself leads to their destabilization, and eventually 00:41:20.475 --> 00:41:22.545 your calm equates to their panic. 00:41:23.475 --> 00:41:25.305 And this doesn't cause change. 00:41:25.305 --> 00:41:26.715 It causes that collapse. 00:41:27.225 --> 00:41:29.535 And here's the painful part that I think a lot of people 00:41:29.535 --> 00:41:30.945 don't realize until much later. 00:41:31.425 --> 00:41:33.555 You weren't just trying to repair the dynamic. 00:41:33.615 --> 00:41:36.835 You were unintentionally feeding it through projection by providing them 00:41:36.835 --> 00:41:40.975 with the attack service, by handing them your buttons, you kept projecting 00:41:40.975 --> 00:41:42.805 your emotional maturity onto them. 00:41:43.495 --> 00:41:45.925 You kept projecting your growth mindset onto them. 00:41:46.375 --> 00:41:48.475 You assumed that they wanted mutual understanding. 00:41:48.835 --> 00:41:51.505 You kept assuming that they cared about your emotional experience 00:41:51.505 --> 00:41:52.825 like you care about theirs. 00:41:53.395 --> 00:41:56.605 You kept assuming that they would repair if they only understood the pain. 00:41:56.665 --> 00:41:58.045 Like you've done the work to repair. 00:41:58.045 --> 00:42:01.585 As soon as you've understood the pain in the relationship, you kept assuming 00:42:01.585 --> 00:42:05.485 that they valued connection over control, and you kept assuming that they had 00:42:05.485 --> 00:42:08.405 the same emotional range and ability to self confront that you learned. 00:42:10.015 --> 00:42:11.245 So what did that lead you to do? 00:42:11.695 --> 00:42:15.955 You explained harder or you tried softer, or you revealed more, or 00:42:15.955 --> 00:42:19.315 you repaired faster, or you offered empathy that they couldn't reciprocate. 00:42:19.795 --> 00:42:20.845 You fell on the sword. 00:42:20.905 --> 00:42:21.895 You made it all about you. 00:42:21.925 --> 00:42:25.045 Not in the narcissistic way, but in the way that says, I'll take 00:42:25.045 --> 00:42:27.295 the responsibility for something even though I didn't do it. 00:42:28.075 --> 00:42:30.445 You started making the emotional deposits for both of you, 00:42:30.495 --> 00:42:32.415 and every time you did this, bless your heart. 00:42:32.475 --> 00:42:35.415 Little did you know, you provided them with more of an attack surface. 00:42:35.865 --> 00:42:39.135 You actually stabilized their nervous system at the cost of yours, 00:42:40.065 --> 00:42:41.655 and that kept the system intact. 00:42:41.835 --> 00:42:44.805 You prevented the collapse that would only come once you began to figure out 00:42:44.805 --> 00:42:46.905 who you were once you began the change. 00:42:47.048 --> 00:42:50.348 So that's why a narcissistic collapse isn't a sign of progress inside of them. 00:42:50.378 --> 00:42:53.678 It's definitely a sign of progress inside of you, because projection 00:42:53.678 --> 00:42:55.658 stops when differentiation begins. 00:42:56.138 --> 00:42:59.438 Now, while all of this can finally lead to the collapse, it's because you're holding 00:42:59.438 --> 00:43:00.938 the boundary without being defensive. 00:43:01.418 --> 00:43:04.478 You've stopped over explaining, you've stopped emotionally babysitting them. 00:43:04.868 --> 00:43:06.663 You've stopped trying to be understood before you were safe. 00:43:07.508 --> 00:43:10.718 You stopped doing the emotional labor for both people and you stayed 00:43:10.718 --> 00:43:14.138 calm rather than going reactive, you stopped giving them the mirror 00:43:14.138 --> 00:43:15.728 that they need to feel superior. 00:43:16.178 --> 00:43:17.468 You looked at your own behavior. 00:43:17.618 --> 00:43:21.398 You stopped rescuing them from the consequences of their own behavior because 00:43:21.398 --> 00:43:24.638 unfortunately, in so many relationships with the narcissist or the emotionally 00:43:24.638 --> 00:43:29.378 immature people just learned to go along to get along, and they don't realize that 00:43:29.383 --> 00:43:32.108 it's only feeding the supply or that ego. 00:43:32.768 --> 00:43:35.648 And now the narcissist loses access to the control mechanisms 00:43:35.648 --> 00:43:37.028 that kept them emotionally afloat. 00:43:37.808 --> 00:43:40.958 And that's what the collapse actually is. 00:43:41.008 --> 00:43:46.198 It's a temporary internal implosion caused by the loss of external regulation. 00:43:46.438 --> 00:43:49.018 Not growth, not insight, not transformation. 00:43:49.408 --> 00:43:50.668 It's a little crack in the mask. 00:43:51.178 --> 00:43:54.138 It's a moment when the scaffolding that held them up falls down. 00:43:54.808 --> 00:43:56.608 It's not the beginning of change. 00:43:56.758 --> 00:43:58.528 It's the beginning of another cycle. 00:43:58.715 --> 00:44:00.725 And I think this is one of the most important parts. 00:44:01.085 --> 00:44:02.585 It's the beginning of your clarity. 00:44:02.678 --> 00:44:06.158 Now, that could be a great place to wrap things up, and I hate to take away that 00:44:06.158 --> 00:44:09.008 kind of momentum, but I wanna address one other thing that Matt said, and 00:44:09.008 --> 00:44:10.268 I'm gonna stay up here on my soapbox. 00:44:10.268 --> 00:44:12.398 Matt asked, is this just content creators feeding desperate 00:44:12.398 --> 00:44:13.358 people what they want to hear? 00:44:14.948 --> 00:44:17.948 That question hits on something I've been pondering and wrestling with for a very 00:44:17.948 --> 00:44:21.178 long time now, not just as a therapist, but as a person who operates in a space 00:44:21.178 --> 00:44:24.808 surrounded by coaches and influencers and motivational speakers, and people I 00:44:24.808 --> 00:44:28.378 believe genuinely want to help, but don't necessarily always have the tools to 00:44:28.378 --> 00:44:29.788 back up the promises that they're making. 00:44:29.938 --> 00:44:32.968 And I'm not one who says I know everything, but I'm definitely not 00:44:32.968 --> 00:44:36.788 going to try and step into a lane where I don't have the evidence-based 00:44:36.788 --> 00:44:40.418 tools, or the knowledge or the time in the chair to know that I can genuinely 00:44:40.418 --> 00:44:42.968 help somebody with the problems that I'm claiming I can help them with. 00:44:44.048 --> 00:44:45.698 I think the best way I can explain my answer. 00:44:46.693 --> 00:44:48.553 Is, uh, through Limerick and Song. 00:44:48.763 --> 00:44:50.143 I really wish it was, but it's not. 00:44:50.383 --> 00:44:50.803 But it's through. 00:44:50.803 --> 00:44:53.353 Something I learned years ago when I was building my magnetic marriage 00:44:53.353 --> 00:44:54.703 course with my good friend, Preston. 00:44:54.913 --> 00:44:57.043 He's good at putting courses together, and we kept having the 00:44:57.043 --> 00:44:59.997 same conversation and it was a me thing that I wasn't understanding. 00:44:59.997 --> 00:45:02.247 He would ask me, okay, what do people actually feel though? 00:45:02.247 --> 00:45:03.327 What makes them reach out to you? 00:45:03.397 --> 00:45:04.380 Where are they hurting? 00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.140 What's happening in their bodies long before they ever learn about 00:45:07.260 --> 00:45:08.430 the tools that you're offering? 00:45:09.060 --> 00:45:11.430 And I would just skip straight into the therapy, the psychology. 00:45:11.430 --> 00:45:13.770 I would start describing my beloved four pillars of a connected 00:45:13.770 --> 00:45:17.130 conversation or emotionally focused therapy or differentiation or 00:45:17.130 --> 00:45:20.160 attachment dynamics or emotional maturity and communication science. 00:45:20.790 --> 00:45:24.030 All the things that I, to this day do believe generally work. 00:45:25.200 --> 00:45:26.280 And Preston would push back. 00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:28.620 He would say, you're still trying to sell the vehicle. 00:45:28.620 --> 00:45:30.090 We need to talk about the destination. 00:45:30.750 --> 00:45:31.890 And I did not understand. 00:45:32.235 --> 00:45:33.315 Over and over again. 00:45:33.975 --> 00:45:36.405 But he wanted me to describe the lived reality that couples 00:45:36.405 --> 00:45:37.515 experience, that moment. 00:45:37.515 --> 00:45:40.065 Your chest tightens when you hear your partner's car pull in the 00:45:40.065 --> 00:45:43.845 driveway or sitting in a restaurant with nothing to say or feeling like. 00:45:44.415 --> 00:45:47.355 Like business partners who occasionally high five each other or inmates 00:45:47.355 --> 00:45:51.015 in a facility, running a daycare together replaying the same argument 00:45:51.015 --> 00:45:52.275 that you've had for 20 years. 00:45:52.275 --> 00:45:54.495 The ache of being unheard, the heaviness of feeling like you're 00:45:54.495 --> 00:45:55.935 walking on emotional eggshells. 00:45:56.595 --> 00:45:59.505 I still didn't understand exactly what he was asking me for, but then 00:45:59.505 --> 00:46:03.045 he showed me a commercial and it was a family on the beach laughing. 00:46:03.225 --> 00:46:07.005 There was a luau, there was dancing and hula dancers and a sunset and 00:46:07.005 --> 00:46:08.595 connection and warmth and belonging. 00:46:09.465 --> 00:46:13.155 And then at the very end, in the corner, the name of the airline just pops up. 00:46:13.155 --> 00:46:14.385 Not a single shot of the airplane. 00:46:14.385 --> 00:46:17.835 No engines, no seats, no safety record, no mechanics, just the destination. 00:46:18.495 --> 00:46:22.755 And he looked at me and he said, that is the destination you, Tony, 00:46:22.755 --> 00:46:24.105 keep trying to sell an airplane. 00:46:24.450 --> 00:46:25.890 But people buy the destination. 00:46:26.190 --> 00:46:29.970 And in that moment, something clicked, not from a marketing perspective, 00:46:29.970 --> 00:46:33.450 although I think I understood that better now, but from a human behavior 00:46:33.450 --> 00:46:36.810 perspective, it made sense why people gravitate towards certain messages, 00:46:37.200 --> 00:46:42.150 certain content creators at two in the morning, certain reels, certain promises. 00:46:42.150 --> 00:46:44.820 It made sense why somebody online saying 2025 is the year 00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:46.020 of the narcissistic collapse. 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:46.470 Why? 00:46:46.470 --> 00:46:48.330 That's gonna get millions of views. 00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:52.950 When I'm out here trying to, and I'm, I'm just saying this, lightheartedly save the 00:46:52.950 --> 00:46:57.090 world and not always getting millions of views with good old evidence-based data. 00:46:57.630 --> 00:46:59.160 It's because they're selling the destination. 00:46:59.700 --> 00:47:01.470 It's hang on, justice is coming. 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:02.755 They will finally see what they've done. 00:47:02.905 --> 00:47:04.110 They will ru the day. 00:47:04.170 --> 00:47:05.880 One day everybody will know the truth. 00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:06.930 And that is coming soon. 00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:09.000 That's the emotional beach scene. 00:47:09.390 --> 00:47:10.170 That's the sunset. 00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:11.820 That's the relief people crave. 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.540 Here's why I have to hold my professional line, because for 20 years I've sat 00:47:15.540 --> 00:47:17.850 in the actual therapist chair across from people that are really going 00:47:17.850 --> 00:47:21.390 through it on a day-to-day basis, and they've been doing it for years. 00:47:21.390 --> 00:47:24.870 I've watched real people in real pain with real histories and real trauma, 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.117 and I've watched marriages fall apart and some grow back together again, and 00:47:29.117 --> 00:47:32.057 evolve into something even healthier and more beautiful and better. 00:47:32.207 --> 00:47:35.687 And I've watched people heal slowly and painfully, and I've watched 00:47:35.687 --> 00:47:38.327 people pretend to heal quickly and then fall back into the same pattern 00:47:38.327 --> 00:47:39.827 because they bought this hope. 00:47:40.397 --> 00:47:43.277 And with that experience, I can't bring myself to sell a destination 00:47:43.277 --> 00:47:45.917 without telling you all about the vehicle that actually gets you there. 00:47:46.517 --> 00:47:50.057 I want you to know that my airplane has amazing rivets 00:47:50.057 --> 00:47:51.047 that hold the seats together. 00:47:51.392 --> 00:47:54.572 'cause while I think coaches mean so well, and I truly, I believe most of 00:47:54.572 --> 00:47:58.172 them do, and I've worked with coaches, I have a coaching certification myself. 00:47:58.532 --> 00:48:01.682 I have worked with far too many clients who are promised transformation through 00:48:01.682 --> 00:48:05.342 a feeling, through a three step formula, through a manifestation technique or a 00:48:05.342 --> 00:48:08.192 mindset hack or a script that's supposed to change your partner's behavior. 00:48:08.432 --> 00:48:13.592 And it can be so expensive because you're willing to spend anything on hope. 00:48:14.432 --> 00:48:15.542 And sometimes those things help. 00:48:15.812 --> 00:48:19.142 And sometimes they do offer hope and they offer language and 00:48:19.142 --> 00:48:21.842 sometimes they offer community and they definitely offer feelings. 00:48:22.352 --> 00:48:22.892 And hope is therapeutic. 00:48:23.612 --> 00:48:24.662 I get why people want it. 00:48:26.132 --> 00:48:28.332 But hope without tools can be maddening. 00:48:28.632 --> 00:48:29.682 It can be frustrating. 00:48:30.102 --> 00:48:32.157 Hope without grounding isn't necessarily healing. 00:48:32.827 --> 00:48:35.562 Hope without a process, it can start to look a little bit 00:48:35.562 --> 00:48:37.122 manipulative, even unintentionally. 00:48:37.927 --> 00:48:40.717 I think that's where my frustration with the concepts around the narcissistic 00:48:40.717 --> 00:48:44.887 collapse trend come in, not because people shouldn't have hope, not that 00:48:44.887 --> 00:48:48.127 they shouldn't know the data, but I worry that the version people are 00:48:48.127 --> 00:48:50.497 often selling is the emotional luau. 00:48:50.917 --> 00:48:53.677 It's the fantasy of the mask falling off and justice arriving 00:48:53.677 --> 00:48:55.207 neatly wrapped in a beautiful bow. 00:48:56.107 --> 00:48:59.917 And I understand why the videos get traction when you're in pain and you 00:48:59.917 --> 00:49:03.817 want relief when you're confused and you want clarity when you feel alone. 00:49:03.847 --> 00:49:06.517 You want somebody to say, this is what's gonna happen next. 00:49:07.057 --> 00:49:09.217 But that's really not how life works. 00:49:09.277 --> 00:49:11.887 It's not how emotional immaturity plays out. 00:49:12.307 --> 00:49:15.787 It's not how it looks when you are becoming more emotionally mature. 00:49:16.327 --> 00:49:18.547 That's not how personality structures work. 00:49:18.607 --> 00:49:20.827 And that's not even how change works. 00:49:22.207 --> 00:49:26.197 And I understand why people sell the destination, because people buy feelings. 00:49:26.497 --> 00:49:30.577 But I'm gonna sell the vehicle and it's gonna take us, a pretty long 00:49:30.577 --> 00:49:33.637 time to get across country or wherever you're going because it's based on the 00:49:33.637 --> 00:49:36.877 actual evidence-based processes that help you heal, regardless of whether 00:49:36.877 --> 00:49:38.287 the other person changes or not. 00:49:38.947 --> 00:49:41.857 And you're gonna go from a, I have no idea what I'm even doing to now. 00:49:41.857 --> 00:49:43.867 I kind of know, but I'm really not sure what to do. 00:49:44.227 --> 00:49:46.537 Or I'm starting to do it a little bit more than I did before. 00:49:46.807 --> 00:49:50.017 And that can be a lengthy process, but eventually you're gonna get to a point 00:49:50.017 --> 00:49:52.627 where you understand it and you're embodying it, and you're doing it more 00:49:52.627 --> 00:49:57.607 than you used to, and then someday all of a sudden, it's just what you do. 00:49:58.207 --> 00:50:01.297 I want to help people get to that point where this is just who they 00:50:01.297 --> 00:50:04.447 are without trying to get them there on a plane that doesn't fly. 00:50:05.017 --> 00:50:07.897 Transformation isn't something that you wait for in someone else. 00:50:07.897 --> 00:50:10.687 It's something that you build inside yourself slowly. 00:50:10.897 --> 00:50:14.947 Deliberately with tools, with support, with differentiation, with boundaries, 00:50:15.427 --> 00:50:18.367 understanding your nervous system, figuring out your identity, your clarity, 00:50:18.367 --> 00:50:20.047 your confidence coming back online. 00:50:20.737 --> 00:50:23.467 You don't need a collapse in someone else's life to build your own. 00:50:23.677 --> 00:50:27.007 And you don't need a trending concept to validate your reality. 00:50:27.487 --> 00:50:30.607 And you don't need the illusion of a destination that you can't control. 00:50:30.937 --> 00:50:31.837 You have a vehicle. 00:50:31.867 --> 00:50:34.417 It's what you're using to listen to me right now. 00:50:35.077 --> 00:50:38.437 And that's the only one that will take you truly where you want to go. 00:50:38.707 --> 00:50:41.587 Before I wrap up, I'm gonna say something that probably is gonna make me sound 00:50:41.587 --> 00:50:42.967 like the world's biggest hypocrite. 00:50:42.967 --> 00:50:43.897 And honestly, I'll own it. 00:50:44.257 --> 00:50:46.357 'cause that whole section I just shared, the part about selling 00:50:46.357 --> 00:50:48.817 destination versus building the actual plane that will get you there. 00:50:49.327 --> 00:50:53.507 It does make me think, it reminds me that, that explains more of why my. 00:50:53.957 --> 00:50:56.987 Men's Emotional Architects Group has been to say it very delicately 00:50:56.987 --> 00:51:00.677 and gently, incredibly delayed as in delayed for a very, very long time. 00:51:00.977 --> 00:51:03.647 People have been reaching out for months, maybe even a year, asking, 00:51:03.747 --> 00:51:04.827 when's the group starting again? 00:51:05.037 --> 00:51:08.877 And I would respond if I even did respond with, it's getting close any minute now, 00:51:09.297 --> 00:51:12.087 which looking back is exactly the kind of thing I would tell somebody to be 00:51:12.087 --> 00:51:16.137 cautious of if they were in a relationship with me and the words I'm saying. 00:51:16.527 --> 00:51:18.417 But here's the good news, and this time it's real. 00:51:18.447 --> 00:51:20.487 The plane is basically completed and ready for takeoff. 00:51:20.487 --> 00:51:23.367 It's built, the wings are on, the engines are attached, and I'm 00:51:23.367 --> 00:51:25.887 finishing the final check so it doesn't fall apart over the Pacific. 00:51:26.607 --> 00:51:29.667 If you've emailed me about joining my Men's Emotional Architects group, you'll 00:51:29.667 --> 00:51:34.007 hear from me soon, and it wouldn't hurt if you haven't heard from me to reach out. 00:51:34.217 --> 00:51:36.827 Maybe just one more time, but the group's gonna be incredible. 00:51:36.857 --> 00:51:38.147 It's gonna be, weekly. 00:51:38.147 --> 00:51:40.127 It's gonna be led by yours truly online. 00:51:40.127 --> 00:51:41.417 You don't have to attend all the time. 00:51:41.447 --> 00:51:44.147 There will be archives, there'll be a lot of information and a lot 00:51:44.147 --> 00:51:46.937 of opportunities for you to ask questions and share experiences. 00:51:47.357 --> 00:51:52.427 And it will be for the price per month, less than a session of therapy with me. 00:51:52.727 --> 00:51:55.427 It has taken some time to put something together that I'm really excited 00:51:55.427 --> 00:51:57.077 to share and that I know will help. 00:51:57.467 --> 00:51:58.817 I didn't want to sell you the luau. 00:51:58.847 --> 00:52:01.097 I wanted to build something that actually is gonna get you somewhere. 00:52:01.547 --> 00:52:04.327 So it's coming and I'm excited and you can absolutely email me 00:52:04.327 --> 00:52:06.217 to remind me that you want in. 00:52:06.817 --> 00:52:10.507 Lemme bring this in for the landing and maybe my last airplane, pun today. 00:52:10.507 --> 00:52:13.737 We covered a lot and I appreciate Matt sending me the email and that is 00:52:13.737 --> 00:52:17.037 encouraging any of you to email me as well with your questions, your thoughts, 00:52:17.037 --> 00:52:20.037 your experiences, because this really has helped open up the door to what 00:52:20.037 --> 00:52:23.557 is behind the narcissistic collapse the hard work of differentiation, 00:52:23.797 --> 00:52:27.247 projection, being aware of attack services, nervous system regulation, and 00:52:27.247 --> 00:52:28.837 what actual transformation looks like. 00:52:28.897 --> 00:52:31.567 And I think if there's one thread running through all this today, it's 00:52:31.567 --> 00:52:35.467 this, you aren't actually powerless even if the relationship you're 00:52:35.467 --> 00:52:36.697 in has left you feeling that way. 00:52:37.147 --> 00:52:41.017 'cause your clarity, your growth, your boundaries, your nervous system settling, 00:52:41.107 --> 00:52:44.797 those things matter and they're not small and you're not being selfish. 00:52:45.157 --> 00:52:47.227 And these things aren't wasted just because somebody else 00:52:47.227 --> 00:52:48.487 refuses to do their part. 00:52:49.087 --> 00:52:52.057 In fact, your growth is what changes the entire dynamic, whether or 00:52:52.057 --> 00:52:53.587 not they rise to meet you there. 00:52:53.858 --> 00:52:55.778 And if you're sitting here thinking, I don't even know where 00:52:55.778 --> 00:52:59.138 to begin, then begin where Matt began with curiosity and honesty, 00:52:59.138 --> 00:53:00.548 with your own internal experience. 00:53:01.388 --> 00:53:03.188 Begin with the smallest acts of self-care. 00:53:03.308 --> 00:53:06.728 Begin with the tiniest steps of holding onto yourself. 00:53:07.508 --> 00:53:10.208 Begin by asking your body, what have you been trying to tell me for so long? 00:53:10.808 --> 00:53:14.168 You don't have to wait for somebody else's collapse to build your own awakening. 00:53:14.588 --> 00:53:18.128 You don't need your partner's epiphany to have your own, and you're allowed 00:53:18.128 --> 00:53:21.758 to outgrow the version of yourself who thought that love meant self-sacrifice. 00:53:22.118 --> 00:53:25.688 And you're allowed today, right now, to take a step toward the life, the 00:53:25.688 --> 00:53:30.155 stability, the grounded self that , hopefully started imagining and have 00:53:30.155 --> 00:53:34.115 started feeling quietly right there in your chest and you're not behind. 00:53:34.325 --> 00:53:36.005 And it's gonna take as long as it's gonna take. 00:53:36.035 --> 00:53:37.955 And you are admittedly right where you need to be. 00:53:37.985 --> 00:53:39.365 You're not broken, you're human. 00:53:39.455 --> 00:53:40.175 You're waking up. 00:53:40.625 --> 00:53:43.505 And waking up is the beginning of all the amazing things that come next. 00:53:43.745 --> 00:53:46.175 I appreciate you joining me, and I will see you next time. 00:53:46.205 --> 00:53:47.255 I'm waking up to narcissism.