WEBVTT 00:00:21.365 --> 00:00:25.285 Hey, everybody. Welcome to Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:25.725 --> 00:00:30.505 But first, thank you to Riley Hope for her song that I swear every single time 00:00:30.505 --> 00:00:34.765 I hear it, it will now reside in my brain for a few days. I don't know if earworm is a negative. 00:00:35.325 --> 00:00:39.265 Is that a negative term? But it will stick in my head. And that is not a bad thing at all. 00:00:39.725 --> 00:00:44.125 Not my job. Look for it wherever you stream music and please give Riley a follow on social media. 00:00:44.445 --> 00:00:49.105 And while you're there following Riley, follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch 00:00:49.105 --> 00:00:52.505 and on TikTok Cockett Virtual Couch, Facebook, Tony Overbay Licensed Marriage 00:00:52.505 --> 00:00:55.765 and Family Therapist, and Substack. 00:00:55.965 --> 00:01:00.405 Now, if you do not know what Substack is, you are only a couple of days behind 00:01:00.405 --> 00:01:03.925 me, and you can click on a link in the show notes to follow me on Substack. 00:01:04.065 --> 00:01:07.525 It is so funny to me to think it is like this pendulum swing where now we're 00:01:07.525 --> 00:01:10.185 back to blog and written word. 00:01:10.525 --> 00:01:14.265 So Substack is more like a blog, meets multimedia with question and answers 00:01:14.265 --> 00:01:16.065 and ask me anythings and random musings. 00:01:16.405 --> 00:01:19.125 And it is written, like written word. 00:01:19.565 --> 00:01:23.925 But I mean, there's also some video and things like that. So everything is video 00:01:23.925 --> 00:01:25.405 except for the things that aren't, that are written. 00:01:25.585 --> 00:01:28.925 I feel like such an old man where I want to say, you know, I'm an old newspaper 00:01:28.925 --> 00:01:32.485 guy because I wrote a humor column in a newspaper for about a decade at one point. 00:01:33.005 --> 00:01:36.465 And then I was known for writing incredibly long blog posts. 00:01:36.965 --> 00:01:40.165 Shocker, with the amount of tangents I like to go on as a podcast host. 00:01:40.605 --> 00:01:44.725 But it does seem like the pendulum swing is over on the side of now. 00:01:44.905 --> 00:01:47.565 We're doing a little more written word. I don't think we're going to print out 00:01:47.565 --> 00:01:49.845 the substacks or send out newspapers on them. 00:01:50.105 --> 00:01:53.665 And I'm sure at some point the pendulum swing will head right back on the other 00:01:53.665 --> 00:01:57.305 side and we'll have smartphones implanted on our forearms and screens and our 00:01:57.305 --> 00:01:59.265 retinas and then give it a couple of decades. 00:01:59.445 --> 00:02:03.665 And now we're sending letters by carrier pigeon from feathers dipped in an inkwell. 00:02:03.905 --> 00:02:07.825 Then we'll go all the way to absorbing thoughts while cultivating our snap peas 00:02:07.825 --> 00:02:10.665 from our garden on Pluto's dark side. 00:02:11.265 --> 00:02:13.785 And I don't think Pluto's a planet anymore, so that's my bad. 00:02:14.305 --> 00:02:17.085 Hey, before we get started today, I do want to make a quick disclaimer. 00:02:17.405 --> 00:02:21.525 Today, we're basing the episode off of a story that I think will be pretty familiar. 00:02:21.805 --> 00:02:24.485 And I want you to know, I get a lot of emails around... 00:02:25.452 --> 00:02:28.652 How often that the male is the narcissist in the story. 00:02:28.972 --> 00:02:33.992 And I want more stories where if you are the male that you're in a relationship 00:02:33.992 --> 00:02:36.892 with an emotionally immature or maybe narcissistic female partner, 00:02:37.072 --> 00:02:41.572 but today the role of the narcissist or the more emotionally immature person is being played by, 00:02:41.992 --> 00:02:44.092 drum roll please, the husband, a male. 00:02:44.772 --> 00:02:48.452 And before anyone starts thinking, okay, here we go, male bashing session. 00:02:48.752 --> 00:02:49.992 I just, I want to be so clear. 00:02:50.632 --> 00:02:54.472 Narcissism is an equal opportunity personality disorder. And we are all, 00:02:54.592 --> 00:02:56.732 all incredibly emotionally immature. 00:02:56.952 --> 00:03:01.232 Oh man, are we? The more that you just look around in the news today and social 00:03:01.232 --> 00:03:05.912 media, and I'm working on some projects around this emotional immaturity epidemic, 00:03:05.912 --> 00:03:08.272 because once you see it, it is hard to unsee. 00:03:08.612 --> 00:03:12.392 But the research does show that men tend to be more narcissistic than women 00:03:12.392 --> 00:03:15.832 on average. And I will have people often say, well, where are you getting that data? 00:03:15.972 --> 00:03:19.852 It's a comprehensive study out of the University of Buffalo that goes over 31 00:03:19.852 --> 00:03:24.052 years of data and more than 475,000 participants. 00:03:24.652 --> 00:03:27.372 I think it's a pretty good sample size and found that men consistently score 00:03:27.372 --> 00:03:30.532 higher in narcissism across multiple generations, regardless of age. 00:03:30.912 --> 00:03:35.972 And the widest gap was in entitlement and exploitation with men more likely 00:03:35.972 --> 00:03:37.752 to feel entitled to certain privileges. 00:03:37.972 --> 00:03:41.352 I found some new data recently that says that narcissistic personality disorder 00:03:41.352 --> 00:03:44.012 affects about 7.7% of males. 00:03:44.152 --> 00:03:47.812 I don't know if that is just in the US. I don't believe that's worldwide, 00:03:47.812 --> 00:03:53.572 but I think the more important thing is 7.7% of males compared to 4.8% of females 00:03:53.572 --> 00:03:54.592 in the general population. 00:03:54.752 --> 00:04:00.092 That is still a significantly high number of females that would be diagnosable narcissists as well. 00:04:00.512 --> 00:04:04.432 But then when you're looking at large, large numbers of populations, 00:04:04.432 --> 00:04:07.652 that's a big gap in male and female population. 00:04:07.852 --> 00:04:11.312 So yes, statistically speaking, we are more likely to encounter narcissistic 00:04:11.312 --> 00:04:13.312 men, But, and this is a very big but. 00:04:13.992 --> 00:04:18.052 Insert emotionally immature joke there. I regularly work with men who are in 00:04:18.052 --> 00:04:21.692 relationships with narcissistic or incredibly emotionally immature women. 00:04:21.912 --> 00:04:26.492 And those dynamics, honestly, they come with their own unique challenges that 00:04:26.492 --> 00:04:28.352 I really don't think are talked about enough. 00:04:28.612 --> 00:04:32.652 Men dealing with female narcissists or women who are incredibly emotionally 00:04:32.652 --> 00:04:37.912 immature face additional layers of stigma, disbelief, isolation, shame, guilt. 00:04:38.472 --> 00:04:42.032 And then I also work with same-sex couples that are navigating narcissistic 00:04:42.032 --> 00:04:46.472 dynamics, gay, lesbian, non-binary partnerships, where the patterns look similar 00:04:46.472 --> 00:04:49.532 in some ways, but really different in others, especially when you factor in 00:04:49.532 --> 00:04:51.052 the community dynamics, 00:04:51.352 --> 00:04:56.592 coming out trauma and societal pressures that are unique to the LGBTQ plus relationships. 00:04:56.912 --> 00:05:01.052 So here is my big ask. If you are a man in a relationship with an emotionally 00:05:01.052 --> 00:05:04.052 immature or narcissistic woman, or if you're in a same sex relationship dealing 00:05:04.052 --> 00:05:06.392 with narcissistic dynamics, I would really like to hear from you. 00:05:06.672 --> 00:05:10.452 Your stories matter. And I would like to feature more of those on the podcast. 00:05:10.652 --> 00:05:14.952 I would like to interact with those and point out the parts of it that are very 00:05:14.952 --> 00:05:17.712 emotionally mature or maybe unique to your demographic. 00:05:17.972 --> 00:05:21.132 Your experiences deserve to be validated and shared as well. 00:05:21.312 --> 00:05:26.252 So please reach out to me through my website at tonyoverbay.com or on social 00:05:26.252 --> 00:05:29.472 media, Instagram, TikTok, or email me. 00:05:29.712 --> 00:05:33.612 Contact at tonyoverbay.com and I am collecting examples for future episodes 00:05:33.612 --> 00:05:37.772 because they present significantly different challenges that I think need a 00:05:37.772 --> 00:05:39.712 lot more airtime. Let's get to today's episode. 00:05:40.180 --> 00:05:43.720 And one more thing before we start, while I am a licensed marriage and family 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.200 therapist, I'm not your marriage and family therapist. 00:05:46.460 --> 00:05:49.820 And my podcast is here to share information, provide some validation, 00:05:49.820 --> 00:05:53.520 and maybe a little bit of entertainment, but it is definitely not to diagnose. 00:05:53.820 --> 00:05:58.020 If you are recognizing yourself in these stories on either side of the coin, 00:05:58.300 --> 00:06:01.700 please find a good therapist in your area, and particularly one who specializes 00:06:01.700 --> 00:06:04.760 in narcissistic abuse and relationship trauma. 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.280 And I get a lot of people who email me and say, do I know a therapist in a certain 00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:12.320 area? I also know that a lot of therapists listen to my podcast. 00:06:12.320 --> 00:06:13.600 I am so grateful for that. 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:16.960 The number of people that email me and say, my therapist suggested I listen 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:18.060 to Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:22.740 That is one of my favorite emails to get. So if you're a therapist and you have 00:06:22.740 --> 00:06:27.420 referred people to this podcast, honestly, I would just love to get to know who you are. 00:06:27.580 --> 00:06:30.720 Reach out. I would love to know what your experience is in working with this 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.280 population. If you're interested in getting referrals from people that are reaching 00:06:34.280 --> 00:06:35.880 out to me, talk about going to therapy. 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.960 Individual therapy is probably the number one thing that you can do if you are 00:06:40.960 --> 00:06:43.760 suspecting that your partner is emotionally immature, narcissistic. 00:06:43.880 --> 00:06:46.860 Now, you will probably also want to try couples therapy. 00:06:46.880 --> 00:06:51.540 And if both parties are willing and it is safe or it continues to be safe, 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.560 then I work with couples a lot where there's that dynamic where one is more 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:59.660 emotionally immature, even varying degrees of narcissistic traits and tendencies. 00:06:59.880 --> 00:07:03.640 But definitely get professional support because what we're going to talk about 00:07:03.640 --> 00:07:07.820 today, this concept of the attack surface, you can definitely do yourself more 00:07:07.820 --> 00:07:11.680 harm than good and starting to really open up and be vulnerable if you are in 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.460 a relationship with somebody who's emotionally immature or narcissistic. 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.580 But you do deserve somebody that's in your corner who can give you personalized 00:07:17.580 --> 00:07:20.760 guidance, who is not going to have the wool pulled over their eyes immediately 00:07:20.760 --> 00:07:24.540 by the emotionally immature or narcissistic person, because then it does become 00:07:24.540 --> 00:07:25.480 more of an attack surface. 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.660 So disclaimers are done. Let's get to today's episode. 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.860 The following is based on a very real story and some of the details have been 00:07:32.860 --> 00:07:36.720 changed, but this is a story that is very cookie cutter in nature. 00:07:37.460 --> 00:07:40.960 So you may think that I was listening in on one of your conversations. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.780 So picture this phone rings. It's 515. It's a Tuesday. 00:07:46.700 --> 00:07:49.880 Husband says, Hey, just leaving from work. I'll be home in about 15 minutes. 00:07:50.400 --> 00:07:52.720 Wife, she's in the middle of helping her daughter with math homework. 00:07:52.880 --> 00:07:55.480 So just starting to think about dinner. And she says, Oh, Hey, good. 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.200 Hey, do you want anything particular for dinner? I've been slammed today with kids stuff. 00:07:59.320 --> 00:08:02.900 I've been helping with homework and showing kids to practice and managing playdates. 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.180 And I honestly haven't really had time to think about what to make yet. 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:07.420 I just put on a pot of boiling water. I'm not even sure what I'm going to put 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:10.760 in there, but I can pull something together. Silence. 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.900 More silence. She says, Hey, are you there? Did we get disconnected? 00:08:16.520 --> 00:08:20.300 More silence. And then here it is. Cold, flat. 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.720 Yeah, I'm fine. I'll fend for myself. Click. 00:08:25.580 --> 00:08:27.840 She's still trying to help with homework and trying to figure out dinner. 00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:31.400 And she stares at the phone and then her stomach drops because what just happened? 00:08:31.640 --> 00:08:34.400 She was just being honest about her day. She was going to make dinner. 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:37.140 She just hadn't started yet. It's 5.15 for crying out loud. 00:08:37.560 --> 00:08:40.740 So she tries to shake it off. 15 minutes pass. He should be walking through 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:44.780 the door any second now. That's how far it is to get from office to home. And he doesn't. 00:08:45.180 --> 00:08:49.340 30 minutes, an hour. She checks his location on the phone app and, 00:08:49.580 --> 00:08:53.820 oh, surprise, it's turned off or it's frozen. And it looks like he's still at his office. 00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:57.400 So she texts, hey, where are you? Just want to make sure you're okay. 00:08:57.760 --> 00:09:00.760 No response. She calls, goes straight to voicemail. She's used to this. 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:04.660 Two hours pass, three hours, and she's now managed dinner on her own, 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.500 finished up homework, navigated the kids, asking where dad is. 00:09:07.680 --> 00:09:08.960 She's handled bedtime solo. 00:09:09.160 --> 00:09:12.060 And through all of it, her anxiety is spiking. 00:09:12.300 --> 00:09:15.280 It's starting to go through the roof. And her mind won't stop racing. 00:09:16.020 --> 00:09:19.220 Oh, okay. Why didn't I just have dinner ready? Is that really too much to ask? 00:09:19.380 --> 00:09:20.880 I mean, he does work really hard. 00:09:21.180 --> 00:09:25.760 And I know this is not the 1950s. And I know I'm not supposed to just make dinner 00:09:25.760 --> 00:09:30.400 and have his slippers ready for him, but it's not a horrible ask for all he does. 00:09:30.520 --> 00:09:33.840 I mean, he definitely lets me know how hard he works. And I know that he doesn't 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.360 understand what I do because he doesn't really ask a lot about it. 00:09:36.500 --> 00:09:40.020 But then she thinks, no, it's okay that I didn't have his dinner waiting for 00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:43.280 him with his slippers in his newspaper the second that he walks in the door. 00:09:43.640 --> 00:09:47.040 I had a crazy day, too. I am allowed to not have everything perfect. 00:09:47.740 --> 00:09:50.680 And another voice kicks in. It's like the little devil and angel on each shoulder. 00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:54.060 But sometimes when dinner isn't ready, he's actually fine with it. 00:09:54.140 --> 00:09:56.120 And he says, hey, no problem, babe. You had a lot going on. 00:09:56.920 --> 00:10:00.960 So why was tonight different? What did I do wrong? And then here comes the devil 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:02.120 on her shoulder, the darker thoughts. 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:06.720 Where is he? I mean, is he even coming home at all when he does come home? 00:10:07.140 --> 00:10:10.300 Honest to goodness, like what hell am I going to have to pay? 00:10:10.500 --> 00:10:11.380 What am I going to have to go through? 00:10:12.340 --> 00:10:15.520 And then she just gets back to that pit in her stomach and she starts to shut 00:10:15.520 --> 00:10:22.060 down. And then what starts underneath the surface is whenever this heat rises, 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.700 whenever she starts to feel this anxiety, several years ago, he had been unfaithful. 00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:31.860 And when she discovered it, when she was devastated, when she asked how he could 00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:36.340 do that, he told her it was her fault, that if she had been being more intimate 00:10:36.340 --> 00:10:39.400 with him more often, he wouldn't have been forced to find connection outside 00:10:39.400 --> 00:10:40.820 of the marriage. Do you think that's what he wanted to do? 00:10:41.160 --> 00:10:43.360 And now he can't even believe that she's upset with him. 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:48.360 She pays for that revelation every single time that they get in an argument 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.280 or any time that there's tension built up in the relationship. 00:10:51.920 --> 00:10:56.680 So now 837, house is quiet. Kids are in bed. She's sitting on the couch. 00:10:56.820 --> 00:10:57.760 Her phone's still in her hand. 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.140 She's numb. It's such a waste of emotional calories and time. 00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:05.340 And she's wondering, do I text again? Do I not? What's the right answer? 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.720 Because I don't know if there is one because sometimes it's good to text again. 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:14.380 Sometimes it's not. then somewhere out there he's perfectly comfortable because 00:11:14.380 --> 00:11:16.320 he's not thinking about her anxiety at all, 00:11:17.045 --> 00:11:21.885 And if that story, if there's any part of that that feels painfully familiar 00:11:21.885 --> 00:11:25.025 to you, and one of my favorite parts about that is if you happen to be the one 00:11:25.025 --> 00:11:30.765 that is engaged or done the silent attack, I would love to talk to you as well. 00:11:32.005 --> 00:11:36.045 But if that is familiar, if any of that part of the wife is familiar. 00:11:36.945 --> 00:11:40.025 Then I think today's episode is going to be really powerful because we're going 00:11:40.025 --> 00:11:41.845 to talk about what I call the attack surface. 00:11:42.545 --> 00:11:47.005 And unfortunately, how often the harder you try to communicate honestly, 00:11:47.265 --> 00:11:51.125 the more power you're actually handing over to this narcissist or emotionally 00:11:51.125 --> 00:11:52.905 immature person in your life. 00:11:53.605 --> 00:11:57.045 So let's go back to the phone call. So he's driving home from work and here's 00:11:57.045 --> 00:11:57.905 what's happening in that moment. 00:11:58.445 --> 00:12:03.505 He literally doesn't know what to think or what to do. Now, I am going very dramatic here. 00:12:03.925 --> 00:12:07.165 I'm operating from this place that it makes me chuckle a little bit, 00:12:07.265 --> 00:12:10.825 but it's that a true narcissistic person or incredibly emotionally immature 00:12:10.825 --> 00:12:14.985 person does not know they exist unless they are interacting with another entity. 00:12:15.225 --> 00:12:18.745 I won't even say human. Call in radio. I can tell the host that whatever they're 00:12:18.745 --> 00:12:20.565 saying is the most ridiculous thing in the world. 00:12:20.905 --> 00:12:24.085 I can read an article and think, that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. 00:12:24.165 --> 00:12:28.265 I can listen to a podcast and say, I can't believe that they let this guy have a podcast. 00:12:28.365 --> 00:12:31.485 All he wants is somebody else's money. It's just, I need something to interact with. 00:12:31.665 --> 00:12:34.845 So it might sound strange, but the narcissist, somebody who's extremely emotionally 00:12:34.845 --> 00:12:37.685 immature, they lack this stable sense of self. 00:12:37.785 --> 00:12:40.305 And so when When I say they lack a sense of self, I don't mean that they don't 00:12:40.305 --> 00:12:43.405 have opinions or they don't have preferences or they're sitting there like this blank slate. 00:12:43.765 --> 00:12:47.325 What I mean is they don't have an internal stable sense of self of who they 00:12:47.325 --> 00:12:50.665 are that exists independent of other people. 00:12:51.385 --> 00:12:54.565 So he's driving home from work. Now, most people in this situation might be 00:12:54.565 --> 00:12:55.365 thinking about their own day. 00:12:55.605 --> 00:12:58.605 They might be listening to a podcast and self-reflecting or self-confronting 00:12:58.605 --> 00:13:02.025 and thinking, holy cow, that is something I do. I didn't know. 00:13:02.145 --> 00:13:03.165 I did not know that was a thing. 00:13:03.705 --> 00:13:07.505 I'm listening to a book right now called Rules of Estrangement about when adult 00:13:07.505 --> 00:13:10.405 children become estranged from their parents by Dr. 00:13:10.725 --> 00:13:13.165 Joshua Coleman, trying to get him on the podcast. And it is, 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.420 phenomenal to listen to this book and go, oh, wow, here's these things I did 00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:19.580 not know that I did not know. 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:22.980 Not I'm listening to it going, yeah, what does this guy know? 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:26.360 20 years of doing this all the time, been through it himself with his own adult daughter. 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:31.220 I can't trust this guy. No, it's there. I'm interacting with it in order for 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:33.200 me to learn more about myself. 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.820 Most people in that situation, again, thinking about their own day, 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.620 maybe what they want to eat, maybe looking forward to seeing their family. 00:13:39.800 --> 00:13:41.860 Might be wondering, man, I wonder what my wife's They was like, 00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:44.420 I wish I would have reached out sooner. I just got caught up in things, 00:13:44.540 --> 00:13:46.340 but I'm about to go home and I can find out. 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:51.380 They have these internal thoughts and feelings that exist independently of needing another person. 00:13:51.940 --> 00:13:56.540 But for somebody without a solid sense of self, that drive home is almost empty, 00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:58.080 maybe metaphorically empty. 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.860 There's no internal narrative, no independent thought about what he wants or 00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:04.260 needs unless it's about what he 00:14:04.260 --> 00:14:08.500 needs from another person or how dare that person not know what he needs. 00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:11.700 He's almost in a void. So what does he do? calls his wife. 00:14:11.860 --> 00:14:16.380 Not really to connect, but because he needs an interaction to know that he exists. 00:14:16.520 --> 00:14:19.280 He needs somebody to bounce off of. He needs friction. 00:14:20.060 --> 00:14:21.320 And she provides it. 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:26.280 Completely innocently provides it. She says, I've been absolutely slammed today 00:14:26.280 --> 00:14:29.200 with kid stuff. I honestly haven't had time to really think about what to make yet. 00:14:29.420 --> 00:14:33.420 And so in that moment, she just handed him the attack surface. 00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:37.120 She gave him something to push against, something to react to, 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.260 Something that allows him to position himself in this one-up position. 00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:42.720 I'm fine. I'll fend for myself. 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.400 And here's where I want to quote, as I regularly do, Eleanor Greenberg, 00:14:48.700 --> 00:14:52.840 a psychotherapist, because I think it's so crucial to understand what's happening. 00:14:53.280 --> 00:14:56.960 Greenberg explains narcissistic personality disorder, and I will go into the 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.940 world of extreme emotional immaturity, is a series of coping strategies that 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.380 began as an adaptation to a childhood family situation. 00:15:03.380 --> 00:15:08.100 And it leaves the person with unstable self-esteem and the inability to regulate 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:11.840 their self-esteem without external validation, the inability to figure out who 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:13.380 they are without external validation. 00:15:13.380 --> 00:15:18.640 I need another person to interact with to know who I am. And it comes with lower empathy. 00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:22.260 So you put that trait together and now I need to interact with somebody else, 00:15:22.280 --> 00:15:24.500 but I don't necessarily have empathy for what they're going through. 00:15:24.640 --> 00:15:26.640 And that helps put me in this one up position. 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:32.060 And one of the keys is that Eleanor says people with narcissistic personality 00:15:32.060 --> 00:15:37.280 disorder lack what she refers to as whole object relations and object constancy. 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.020 And these are two very important concepts. Whole object relations is this ability, 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.760 this capacity to see yourself and others in stable but also integrated ways 00:15:45.760 --> 00:15:48.160 that will acknowledge both the person's good and bad qualities. 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.580 It's the ability to hold complexity. 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:55.160 It's the ability to take in multiple emotions, multiple thoughts, multiple feelings. 00:15:55.935 --> 00:15:59.415 Now we go to object constancy. That's the ability to maintain a positive emotional 00:15:59.415 --> 00:16:04.535 connection to somebody that especially you like, even if you're angry or hurt 00:16:04.535 --> 00:16:07.175 or frustrated or disappointed by their behavior. 00:16:07.935 --> 00:16:10.475 And we're not even going to talk a lot about differentiation today, 00:16:10.595 --> 00:16:15.435 but that is where even my frustration with their behavior is a me thing. Why am I so frustrated? 00:16:15.655 --> 00:16:19.375 Why do I have these expectations that that person needs to meet my needs? 00:16:19.935 --> 00:16:22.255 First, I want to take a look at that. What does that say about me? 00:16:22.255 --> 00:16:28.575 But when an emotionally immature narcissistic person lacks whole object relations 00:16:28.575 --> 00:16:30.895 or object constancy without these capacities, 00:16:31.215 --> 00:16:35.315 people with narcissistic personality disorder or extremely emotionally immature 00:16:35.315 --> 00:16:37.475 only see themselves and other people in one of two ways. 00:16:37.615 --> 00:16:40.895 Either they're special, unique, omnipotent, perfect, entitled, 00:16:41.115 --> 00:16:46.635 what Greenberg calls high status, or they're defective, worthless, garbage, low status. 00:16:47.315 --> 00:16:50.855 This is the black or white, all or nothing thinking that defines emotional immaturity 00:16:50.855 --> 00:16:53.595 that leads to this path of narcissistic personality disorder. 00:16:54.275 --> 00:16:58.175 So let's go back to that phone call when his wife said dinner wasn't ready because 00:16:58.175 --> 00:17:01.155 he lacks whole object relations and this object constancy. 00:17:01.395 --> 00:17:05.255 He could not think, oh man, she had a busy day. I am a little disappointed dinner 00:17:05.255 --> 00:17:06.855 isn't ready, but I understand. 00:17:07.175 --> 00:17:10.155 She's still a great wife and a partner. She's the mother to our kids. 00:17:10.595 --> 00:17:12.115 We will figure this out together. 00:17:12.675 --> 00:17:17.755 Because what would that require? holding multiple thoughts and feelings all together at one time. 00:17:18.015 --> 00:17:22.555 It would require seeing her as both good to him, usually has dinner ready, 00:17:22.775 --> 00:17:27.135 as a caring wife, and also human, imperfect, having a busy day, didn't plan dinner. 00:17:27.395 --> 00:17:31.415 And it would require his maintaining positive feelings about her, 00:17:31.575 --> 00:17:33.915 even if he's experiencing minor disappointment. 00:17:34.615 --> 00:17:38.595 And let's not even talk about him doing the work to recognize it just is. 00:17:38.815 --> 00:17:41.455 Bless her heart. She's doing her best. How can I help? 00:17:41.835 --> 00:17:45.635 But he can't do that. because the moment that she said dinner wasn't ready, 00:17:45.895 --> 00:17:49.595 she went from high status, good wife, meets my needs to low status, 00:17:49.835 --> 00:17:52.235 worthless, failing, bad. What's she doing for me? 00:17:53.015 --> 00:17:56.015 And in that split second, that's when she became all bad. 00:17:56.235 --> 00:17:59.335 And this is why the reaction was so extreme. It wasn't just, 00:17:59.855 --> 00:18:02.035 oh man, okay, bummed a little bit, the dinner isn't ready. 00:18:02.255 --> 00:18:05.255 It was a complete collapse into she's failing me. 00:18:05.495 --> 00:18:08.495 She doesn't care about me. She's worthless. I'll fend for myself. 00:18:08.915 --> 00:18:14.355 Talk about narcissistic projection as well. He is projecting that onto a mirror 00:18:14.355 --> 00:18:17.995 and then seeing himself back there because his assumption is that if someone 00:18:17.995 --> 00:18:22.135 doesn't do what you want them to do, tell you that you're awesome all the time, they do not love you. 00:18:22.555 --> 00:18:26.975 So then therefore it is true. If I think it, it's true. That emotional reasoning 00:18:26.975 --> 00:18:29.575 from the emotional maturity episodes I did a little while back. 00:18:30.115 --> 00:18:34.355 This is also why narcissists often seesaw back and forth between idealizing 00:18:34.355 --> 00:18:35.995 someone and then devaluing them. 00:18:36.015 --> 00:18:39.175 When you make them feel good about themselves, that's the key. 00:18:39.515 --> 00:18:44.275 You're special. Amazing. Perfect. They like the way they feel around you. 00:18:44.971 --> 00:18:48.111 Then you do something they don't like, which could be as simple as saying the 00:18:48.111 --> 00:18:52.331 word no to a request or mention you had a busy day or express a need of your own. 00:18:52.411 --> 00:18:54.891 And now you are all bad. You are worthless. 00:18:55.531 --> 00:18:58.931 Later on, you might do something that makes them feel good again about themselves. 00:18:58.951 --> 00:19:01.891 And now you are back to being good and special. 00:19:02.491 --> 00:19:06.371 You haven't actually changed. What's changed is their internal state, 00:19:06.531 --> 00:19:09.771 which they can't regulate without this interaction, without this friction, 00:19:09.991 --> 00:19:15.751 without this external validation. Let me now share the unicorn rainbow version. 00:19:15.931 --> 00:19:20.531 Let me contrast this with what a securely attached, emotionally mature person would have done. 00:19:20.911 --> 00:19:25.291 And this comes from the work of Julie Hall, who has the Narcissistic Family Files. 00:19:25.411 --> 00:19:29.351 She says, securely attached humans approach relationships cooperatively. 00:19:29.351 --> 00:19:34.231 They work together to achieve shared goals. They seek and they give empathetic validation. 00:19:34.611 --> 00:19:38.951 They share accurate and truthful information. They express affection and vulnerability. 00:19:38.951 --> 00:19:42.351 They build trust and intimacy in their relationships. there might be conflict, 00:19:42.451 --> 00:19:44.651 there will be conflict, there will be disagreement. 00:19:44.711 --> 00:19:47.311 But mutual support is the foundation of the relationship. 00:19:47.531 --> 00:19:51.091 It's the secure attachment. It's the base that they're operating from. 00:19:51.551 --> 00:19:56.171 So therefore, respect and love are not at stake when someone is human. 00:19:56.911 --> 00:20:00.251 Here's what that phone call would have sounded like with a secure attachment 00:20:00.251 --> 00:20:03.371 in people that were emotionally immature, or especially if the husband had been 00:20:03.371 --> 00:20:04.171 more emotionally immature. 00:20:04.651 --> 00:20:07.571 Hey, just leave and work. Be home in about 15 minutes. Oh, good. 00:20:07.751 --> 00:20:10.191 Hey, do you want anything in particular for dinner, I've been slammed today 00:20:10.191 --> 00:20:13.751 with the kid stuff, helping with homework, shuttling to practice, managing playdates. 00:20:14.491 --> 00:20:16.511 Honestly, I haven't had time to really think about what to make yet, 00:20:16.671 --> 00:20:19.651 but I will be happy to try to pull something together. He would say, 00:20:20.091 --> 00:20:21.911 oh man, that sounds like a day. 00:20:22.211 --> 00:20:25.091 No, don't even worry about it. I'll grab a rotisserie chicken on the way home 00:20:25.091 --> 00:20:29.451 or take out or you know what? I know how to do scrambled eggs. I can do a little toast. 00:20:29.671 --> 00:20:32.031 What kid doesn't love breakfast for dinner? Whatever is easiest. 00:20:32.431 --> 00:20:36.711 She says, that would be amazing. And park your unicorn around back because I'm 00:20:36.711 --> 00:20:38.651 tired of the unicorn poop all over the driveway. 00:20:38.991 --> 00:20:41.711 Thank you. She says a rotisserie chicken sounds perfect. Done. 00:20:41.991 --> 00:20:45.051 See you in 20 minutes. And hey, I can't wait to hear about your crazy day when I get home. 00:20:45.997 --> 00:20:49.717 In this version, could he have a fleeting feeling of disappointment that dinner isn't ready? 00:20:50.197 --> 00:20:53.197 Absolutely. It can even be more than a fleeting feeling. He might even go, 00:20:53.337 --> 00:20:57.117 geez, look at me, a captain entitled here, thinking that I need to be able to 00:20:57.117 --> 00:21:01.737 hand her my hat and my overcoat, and then she will hand me my slippers and my pipe. 00:21:02.317 --> 00:21:05.237 And he's thinking, all right, who am I? Or Rockefeller? 00:21:06.017 --> 00:21:08.557 And he might have been looking forward to a home-cooked meal. 00:21:08.717 --> 00:21:11.777 He might have just told a work colleague, oh man, she's a really good cook. 00:21:11.897 --> 00:21:14.657 So he's thinking about it. And you might feel a twinge of, oh man, 00:21:14.937 --> 00:21:17.057 you know, I wish things were going to be a little more settled when I got home, 00:21:17.117 --> 00:21:19.797 but what happens when you have kids and you have a family? 00:21:20.017 --> 00:21:23.577 So here's the difference. An emotionally mature person with whole object relations 00:21:23.577 --> 00:21:28.497 and object constancy can hold multiple thoughts and multiple feelings all at the same time. 00:21:28.917 --> 00:21:32.477 I'm a little disappointed dinner isn't ready. And my wife had an incredibly 00:21:32.477 --> 00:21:35.917 busy day and she's still a wonderful partner and we can solve this together. 00:21:36.157 --> 00:21:39.317 And I love her and our relationship's secure and I can put the unicorn out back. 00:21:39.457 --> 00:21:42.457 And is that a leprechaun? Wow. A real pot of gold. 00:21:42.757 --> 00:21:45.037 All those thoughts and feelings can coexist. 00:21:45.677 --> 00:21:49.557 The disappointment does not erase love. It is not all or nothing. 00:21:49.697 --> 00:21:52.137 It's not black or white. The frustration doesn't erase appreciation. 00:21:52.137 --> 00:21:56.497 He can be frustrated and notice it and also appreciate what she's doing. 00:21:56.677 --> 00:22:00.117 The imperfection, her humanness doesn't make her worthless. 00:22:00.997 --> 00:22:04.417 But the narcissistic husband in the opening story can't do that. 00:22:04.877 --> 00:22:08.857 The more emotionally immature he is, the less likely he is to make space in 00:22:08.857 --> 00:22:12.377 his own mind for a variety of feelings and thoughts. He is stuck in this all 00:22:12.377 --> 00:22:13.537 or nothing, black or white thinking. 00:22:14.077 --> 00:22:17.177 It's what he knows. This is why even when you try to convince him of it, 00:22:17.317 --> 00:22:19.797 he might at some point say, no, okay, I can see, I can understand. 00:22:20.357 --> 00:22:23.837 And then he's alleviated his discomfort or he's even taken the one-up status 00:22:23.837 --> 00:22:25.937 there of going like, no, you're right. I get it. 00:22:26.077 --> 00:22:28.937 And that makes the other person feel good. Oh, wow. Okay, cool. Good talk. 00:22:29.797 --> 00:22:33.977 Because to him, she either meets his needs perfectly. She's high status or she's 00:22:33.977 --> 00:22:35.397 failing him completely. Low status. 00:22:35.957 --> 00:22:38.477 So hopefully you can see the difference in the secure attachment version. 00:22:38.657 --> 00:22:42.757 He has his own internal sense of self. He can think independently about solutions. 00:22:42.757 --> 00:22:44.377 He can empathize with her experience. 00:22:44.477 --> 00:22:48.937 He can hold complexity, both his disappointment and his understanding all together. 00:22:49.297 --> 00:22:53.977 He can cooperate toward a shared goal, feeding the family and still be disappointed. 00:22:54.237 --> 00:22:59.857 And so crucially, the foundation of mutual support is intact because his positive 00:22:59.857 --> 00:23:04.877 feelings about her don't collapse the moment she's human, the moment she's imperfect, 00:23:05.037 --> 00:23:08.977 the moment that she isn't doing what he thought she should be doing. 00:23:08.977 --> 00:23:13.257 In the narcissistic version, he needed her to provide him with something to react against. 00:23:13.537 --> 00:23:16.977 The coldness, the I'll fend for myself. That's not really about dinner. 00:23:17.077 --> 00:23:18.297 That's about positioning. 00:23:18.717 --> 00:23:23.617 That's about creating tension or creating fiction so he can feel that he exists 00:23:23.617 --> 00:23:26.057 and he can take this familiar one-up position. 00:23:26.217 --> 00:23:30.597 Now, narcissistic supply complete. I exist. 00:23:30.957 --> 00:23:34.197 And he gets to drive off to whatever he's going to do. 00:23:34.277 --> 00:23:39.517 And she is beating herself up and trying to figure it out. and he is not thinking about it. 00:23:40.245 --> 00:23:43.725 This is antagonistic attachment. It's a term that's taken from the world of 00:23:43.725 --> 00:23:45.605 biology and antagonist. 00:23:45.745 --> 00:23:49.145 It describes relationships where one organism benefits at the expense of another. 00:23:49.705 --> 00:23:54.025 Unlike secure attachment, which builds connection through mutual support and understanding. 00:23:54.485 --> 00:23:57.565 And when you have a secure attachment or you're working together towards secure 00:23:57.565 --> 00:24:00.725 attachment, you want more interaction because it's going to teach you more about 00:24:00.725 --> 00:24:03.085 each other and yourself. And you're going to grow together. 00:24:03.645 --> 00:24:07.085 One plus one is three, that kind of math. Not the gaslighting kind of math, 00:24:07.185 --> 00:24:07.945 but the good kind of math. 00:24:08.445 --> 00:24:13.065 But that antagonistic attachment requires predation, which is meaning that there 00:24:13.065 --> 00:24:15.405 is a predator. It requires competition. 00:24:15.665 --> 00:24:19.925 It requires parasitism. It's a parasite that is sucking off of another person, 00:24:20.105 --> 00:24:21.205 sucking their life force. 00:24:21.685 --> 00:24:25.565 That narcissist literally needs you to interact with them, not for genuine connection. 00:24:25.745 --> 00:24:29.605 There is not genuine curiosity, but so they can define themselves against you. 00:24:29.845 --> 00:24:33.885 Come over here so I can see how good I am and I can tell you the things that 00:24:33.885 --> 00:24:38.945 I can tell you to put you down or that you will supposedly then admire me for me sharing with you. 00:24:39.405 --> 00:24:42.605 Or I can be more hurt than you. I can be a better victim. 00:24:43.425 --> 00:24:46.425 They're not relating to you as a partner or an equal. 00:24:46.605 --> 00:24:50.625 They're relating to you as an antagonist relates to a protagonist in a story. 00:24:50.785 --> 00:24:55.085 They need the conflict. They need the tension, the opposition to know that they exist. 00:24:55.625 --> 00:24:58.865 This is where it starts to get so confusing for the pathologically kind people 00:24:58.865 --> 00:25:00.405 like the wife in the opening story. 00:25:00.525 --> 00:25:03.285 She genuinely believed that she was just being honest about her day because 00:25:03.285 --> 00:25:06.865 that's what she was being. In a healthy relationship, that is what you want to do. 00:25:07.085 --> 00:25:09.885 We're in this together. Let me tell you about my day. Oh my gosh, tell me more. 00:25:10.445 --> 00:25:13.385 That's why talk therapy works if we want to back it down to its most simple 00:25:13.385 --> 00:25:16.445 components, is that the things that you carry in your head and start to think, 00:25:16.545 --> 00:25:19.365 what's wrong with me and this is crazy, and you express them to somebody who 00:25:19.365 --> 00:25:23.545 says, oh my gosh, tell me more, and doesn't say, well, why'd you do that? Why didn't you do this? 00:25:23.665 --> 00:25:26.065 That's not what I would have done. I am so much better at that than you. 00:25:26.965 --> 00:25:29.925 When you do that, you're going to keep those thoughts in your head. 00:25:30.445 --> 00:25:36.805 And I know the book Buddha Brain says it so well that the negative thoughts, they are like Velcro. 00:25:36.965 --> 00:25:40.325 The positive ones, Teflon. They just slide right off. We hang on to those negatives. 00:25:40.485 --> 00:25:42.025 The brain has a negativity bias. 00:25:42.745 --> 00:25:46.045 But back to the story, she thought they were having a normal conversation about 00:25:46.045 --> 00:25:47.765 dinner logistics and sharing about the day. 00:25:47.885 --> 00:25:51.045 She approached the interaction assuming both people want connection and both 00:25:51.045 --> 00:25:53.625 people are seeking mutual understanding because we're in this thing together. 00:25:54.085 --> 00:25:57.085 Now what's happening? The narcissistic husband wasn't looking for connection, 00:25:57.345 --> 00:26:00.725 he needed a reaction, something to define himself against. 00:26:01.025 --> 00:26:03.945 Okay, so this brings me to the attack surface. 00:26:04.385 --> 00:26:09.885 An attack surface is it's any word, it's an emotion, or it's a behavior that 00:26:09.885 --> 00:26:15.685 you provide the narcissist that then they can use to criticize or attack or 00:26:15.685 --> 00:26:17.185 position themselves as the victim. 00:26:17.725 --> 00:26:21.445 All in the service of putting themselves in that one-up position. 00:26:21.625 --> 00:26:25.005 And so let me explain what I mean by the one-up position. And I think that is 00:26:25.005 --> 00:26:29.265 one of the terms that is starting to be bandied about in the mental health space. 00:26:29.625 --> 00:26:32.365 It's because it's this universal principle where... 00:26:33.062 --> 00:26:37.162 Okay. In healthy relationships, people generally operate as equals. That's the hope. 00:26:37.642 --> 00:26:41.122 Sometimes you need more support. Sometimes I maybe need more support. 00:26:41.282 --> 00:26:42.762 Sometimes you're right. Sometimes I'm right. 00:26:43.022 --> 00:26:47.742 There's this natural give and take. It's like a flow in the relationship, in the conversations. 00:26:48.082 --> 00:26:53.902 And when you really have a secure attachment, and I'm not going to go down the 00:26:53.902 --> 00:26:57.902 path of the unicorn and the leprechaun, but I have strengths, you have strengths. 00:26:58.042 --> 00:27:01.662 Some days I'm on, some days you are, some days we both are. And that's why it's 00:27:01.662 --> 00:27:05.422 so much better to be in a relationship with somebody when you have another person 00:27:05.422 --> 00:27:08.822 that you're going through things with, not when it's somebody that is there 00:27:08.822 --> 00:27:12.782 to make your life worse or to suck the life out of you. 00:27:13.442 --> 00:27:18.102 There's none of what the narcissist needs where they can't tolerate equality. 00:27:18.242 --> 00:27:22.102 It's the concept of a zero-sum game. There is a winner and a loser. 00:27:22.462 --> 00:27:26.282 There is a right and a wrong, and they need to be the winner and they need to be right. 00:27:26.562 --> 00:27:30.442 They need to be superior. They need to be smarter and they need to be even more 00:27:30.442 --> 00:27:35.342 justified or more victimized or more reasonable because being vulnerable equals. 00:27:36.082 --> 00:27:38.782 Intolerable to somebody without a stable sense of self. 00:27:39.022 --> 00:27:44.062 So the one-up position is about power. It's about positioning and it's the way 00:27:44.062 --> 00:27:45.702 that they know that they exist. 00:27:45.842 --> 00:27:49.742 When they see life as a zero-sum game, if they are in the one-up position, 00:27:49.882 --> 00:27:51.802 what does that put you in? It's the one down position. 00:27:52.122 --> 00:27:56.062 It's the narcissist's way of climbing above you so they can look down. 00:27:56.342 --> 00:28:01.782 That way, they guarantee they know that they are okay because if life is a competition, 00:28:01.782 --> 00:28:05.442 if it is a zero-sum game, they have to be ahead of someone. 00:28:05.842 --> 00:28:09.802 And you're the one that's closest to them. And you're the one that they're going 00:28:09.802 --> 00:28:10.822 to interact with the most. 00:28:10.842 --> 00:28:14.482 And so, they're going to know the best ways to take that one-up position with you. 00:28:14.762 --> 00:28:18.522 And they use whatever you give them to get there. If we go back to that opening 00:28:18.522 --> 00:28:21.602 story and we identify the attack services, there's a few. 00:28:21.782 --> 00:28:26.802 And once you're aware of this concept, you can't unsee it once you see it concepts. So the first one. 00:28:27.535 --> 00:28:31.495 When the wife says, I've been absolutely slammed today with kid stuff, 00:28:31.635 --> 00:28:35.115 helping with homework, shuttling to practice, managing playdates to her, 00:28:35.755 --> 00:28:38.735 sharing information about her day, he might've even asked, how's your day? 00:28:39.095 --> 00:28:44.055 To him, okay, I need you to start talking so I can find something that I can use. 00:28:44.275 --> 00:28:47.995 Ah, she's complaining. She's implying I don't help enough. She's suggesting 00:28:47.995 --> 00:28:49.035 her day is harder than mine. 00:28:49.355 --> 00:28:52.775 And what is so fascinating is when I look at the concept of we're all emotionally 00:28:52.775 --> 00:28:53.755 immature until we're not. 00:28:53.975 --> 00:28:59.075 I remember having quite the aha moment in an old beat up van that we were driving 00:28:59.075 --> 00:29:02.175 and it was paid off, which is always a good thing, but it was old. 00:29:02.395 --> 00:29:06.355 And sometimes when you would come to a stop, the lights would go on and off 00:29:06.355 --> 00:29:08.895 and the doors would unlock and lock. And it seemed like it was haunted. 00:29:09.295 --> 00:29:13.715 And I got to the point where when anyone in the family and the kids were pretty 00:29:13.715 --> 00:29:17.695 small at that time, but they would mention the van and the locks and they didn't 00:29:17.695 --> 00:29:19.015 like it, or they thought it was funny. 00:29:19.315 --> 00:29:23.255 I noticed that I felt like they were criticizing me. Oh, you're not a provider. 00:29:23.615 --> 00:29:27.375 And so all they had to do was say these words about this van. 00:29:27.395 --> 00:29:30.395 And all of a sudden I was looking at it a little bit like an attack surface. 00:29:30.535 --> 00:29:35.355 But at that time, I was really trying to be more aware, more self-confrontational, 00:29:35.595 --> 00:29:38.235 kind of stepping out of that emotionally immature self. 00:29:38.595 --> 00:29:42.375 And I recognized, oh, that is wild. All they have to do is say this thing and 00:29:42.375 --> 00:29:44.595 I have made meaning of it. And it is a criticism. 00:29:44.875 --> 00:29:47.735 And now I need to let them know how hard I work and how they don't understand 00:29:47.735 --> 00:29:50.875 when all they're trying to say is, hey, I think the car is haunted. 00:29:51.655 --> 00:29:54.995 Let's go to the second attack surface where she says, I honestly haven't had 00:29:54.995 --> 00:29:58.455 time to really think about what to make for dinner yet, but I can pull something together. 00:29:59.255 --> 00:30:02.495 Again, she's being honest. She's even offering a solution. 00:30:02.775 --> 00:30:06.175 She'll pull something together. But to him, this becomes, she doesn't have dinner 00:30:06.175 --> 00:30:08.775 ready. She's not prioritizing my needs. She doesn't care about me. 00:30:08.895 --> 00:30:10.035 She's failing at her responsibilities. 00:30:10.355 --> 00:30:13.635 Now she did not actually say or even imply any of those things, 00:30:13.635 --> 00:30:17.815 but the attack surface doesn't have to be accurate. It just has to exist. 00:30:18.135 --> 00:30:22.455 That's all that the narcissist needs is words that someone can say, 00:30:22.535 --> 00:30:26.715 and then they are masterful at learning how to use those words against the person 00:30:26.715 --> 00:30:29.955 that said them to put that person, the narcissist in the one-up position. 00:30:30.075 --> 00:30:33.995 So when she provided those words, those emotions, those pieces of information, 00:30:34.675 --> 00:30:37.195 oh, he had what he needed. Now he knew what he could do. 00:30:37.475 --> 00:30:41.455 He can now position himself as the victim. I'm fine. I'll, I'll fend for myself. 00:30:42.375 --> 00:30:45.835 Narcissistic translation. You've let me down, but I'm such a good guy. 00:30:45.835 --> 00:30:49.755 I won't complain. I'll just take care of myself since you clearly can't take care of me. 00:30:50.395 --> 00:30:53.615 And then he disappears for three hours and he turns off his location. 00:30:53.775 --> 00:30:55.015 He ignores her calls and texts. 00:30:55.215 --> 00:30:59.735 And that is honestly not okay. And especially in that scenario where he just 00:30:59.735 --> 00:31:02.215 hangs up on her and he goes silent and they have kids. 00:31:03.148 --> 00:31:07.748 Now, why did he do that? Because she provided him with exactly what he needed. 00:31:07.748 --> 00:31:11.208 This attack surface that allowed him to gain his narcissistic supply. 00:31:11.428 --> 00:31:14.628 We'll talk about that in a moment. And then maintain the one-up position while 00:31:14.628 --> 00:31:17.408 she sits at home and she is drowning in anxiety. 00:31:17.848 --> 00:31:21.268 Second-guessing herself, wondering, what did I do wrong? Or what could I have done better? 00:31:21.928 --> 00:31:26.648 There's a psychoanalyst a long time ago named Otto Finchel, who first described 00:31:26.648 --> 00:31:31.668 this phenomenon in 1938 as narcissistic supply. attention, admiration, 00:31:31.728 --> 00:31:36.068 or emotional reactions that the narcissist needs from their environment to maintain their self-esteem. 00:31:36.568 --> 00:31:40.368 Despite this facade of confidence and self-flattery and grandiosity, 00:31:40.628 --> 00:31:44.088 narcissists actually fear that they're undesirable and they depend on everybody 00:31:44.088 --> 00:31:46.408 else to affirm that fragile ego. 00:31:46.628 --> 00:31:50.968 They must defend that fragile ego at all costs and they need people to validate them. 00:31:51.128 --> 00:31:53.868 And if they don't validate them, they will make sure they get their own validation 00:31:53.868 --> 00:31:57.388 by putting that person down or making that person essentially admit something 00:31:57.388 --> 00:32:02.808 that they don't really believe, or to finally that person is just going to go along to get along. 00:32:02.948 --> 00:32:06.168 Agree. You bet. No problem. I just got to get out of this conversation. 00:32:06.848 --> 00:32:11.668 That same pattern also plays out in divorce and custody situations, 00:32:11.888 --> 00:32:14.508 which I have been observant of a few recently. 00:32:14.988 --> 00:32:19.468 The reason I jump into this legal world is there's a really fascinating concept 00:32:19.468 --> 00:32:22.828 that you see often in this environment where the narcissist rarely, 00:32:23.028 --> 00:32:26.908 if ever, offers information first, let's say for a settlement or for mediation. Why? 00:32:27.468 --> 00:32:31.108 Because you can't attack a blank page because they typically don't propose the 00:32:31.108 --> 00:32:32.028 first custody schedule. 00:32:32.188 --> 00:32:37.248 They wait for you to propose one. And then now they have something concrete to criticize. Okay. 00:32:37.528 --> 00:32:40.208 I don't like Tuesday nights. That weekend doesn't work for me. 00:32:40.368 --> 00:32:42.988 You're being unreasonable about the holidays. What else do you have? 00:32:43.788 --> 00:32:47.688 And it's so interesting because if you then say, well, I need this from you 00:32:47.688 --> 00:32:51.648 to the narcissist, especially often in these court proceedings, they just don't do it. 00:32:51.928 --> 00:32:55.908 And I remember the very first time where I, with one of my clients and she just 00:32:55.908 --> 00:32:59.308 said, he lied and he didn't do things by the deadline. 00:32:59.508 --> 00:33:02.288 I didn't know you could do that. And I just said, I did not either. 00:33:02.788 --> 00:33:05.348 But boy, have I seen lying in a courtroom. 00:33:06.388 --> 00:33:10.748 The narcissist typically doesn't start the conversation about things like dividing 00:33:10.748 --> 00:33:14.288 assets. They wait until you express interest in something. Maybe it's the house. 00:33:14.528 --> 00:33:17.908 Maybe it's a retirement account. Maybe it's a car. Those make sense. 00:33:18.208 --> 00:33:22.308 But I've literally had ones where someone brought up a collection of old books. 00:33:23.169 --> 00:33:27.949 The spouse had said, she's never cared about those books. 00:33:28.489 --> 00:33:31.449 I don't know if she can read. And then now all of a sudden though, 00:33:31.629 --> 00:33:36.009 that is the one thing that meant the world to her because he actually wanted them. 00:33:36.609 --> 00:33:40.769 Suddenly that thing that you wanted becomes the only thing. It's the most special 00:33:40.769 --> 00:33:42.169 thing ever that they wanted in the divorce. 00:33:42.629 --> 00:33:47.029 I can think back to a client and this is maybe one of those first world problems 00:33:47.029 --> 00:33:48.489 or man, how the other half lives. 00:33:48.889 --> 00:33:55.089 But the spouse had never once mentioned wanting this vacation cabin because 00:33:55.089 --> 00:33:58.269 they actually never went there and they complained about it. 00:33:58.329 --> 00:34:03.549 And we had couples, therapist arguments about this cabin and what it was a waste 00:34:03.549 --> 00:34:04.829 and the person refused to go there. 00:34:05.469 --> 00:34:08.229 Always complained when they suggested weekend trips there. 00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:12.329 But the moment that they said a mediation that they would like to keep it because 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:15.709 it had actually been more important to their side of the family, 00:34:15.869 --> 00:34:19.849 then their partner suddenly became passionate about how much that cabin meant 00:34:19.849 --> 00:34:22.169 to them. This is the attack surface in action. 00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:25.969 One partner gave the other partner something to oppose. And then in opposing 00:34:25.969 --> 00:34:28.149 them, they could position themselves as the victim. 00:34:28.269 --> 00:34:31.769 The one that is being denied this one thing, this thing so meaningful, 00:34:31.829 --> 00:34:32.729 the only thing that they wanted. 00:34:33.369 --> 00:34:38.209 Let's go back to silence as a weapon. If we go back to the wife sitting on the 00:34:38.209 --> 00:34:40.669 couch, 8.37 PM, wondering if she should text again. 00:34:41.089 --> 00:34:44.589 Three hours have passed since that initial phone call. Three hours of silence. 00:34:44.769 --> 00:34:48.109 And here's another one of these items that I think is crucial to understand. 00:34:48.649 --> 00:34:53.809 Silence is a weapon. The narcissist is completely comfortable with silence and inaction. 00:34:54.713 --> 00:34:58.513 Just sit with that for a minute, because here's this projection as well. 00:34:58.773 --> 00:35:02.393 Most likely you as the pathologically kind person are projecting onto them that 00:35:02.393 --> 00:35:03.973 this must be really difficult for them too. 00:35:04.333 --> 00:35:07.273 And I'm sure it's hard and I don't want them to feel bad. So you know what? 00:35:07.393 --> 00:35:08.793 I will, I will reach out and apologize. 00:35:09.633 --> 00:35:12.253 They may not even be thinking about the situation at all. 00:35:13.113 --> 00:35:17.413 You, you're drowning in anxiety. Think about what happened to this wife in those 00:35:17.413 --> 00:35:19.513 three hours. Her mind would not stop racing. 00:35:20.173 --> 00:35:22.573 Why didn't I just have dinner ready? Is that really too much to ask? 00:35:22.573 --> 00:35:25.153 He does work hard. I mean, again, it's not the 1950s. 00:35:25.313 --> 00:35:28.593 I did have a crazy day too. Sometimes he's fine when dinner isn't ready. 00:35:28.753 --> 00:35:29.853 So why was tonight different? 00:35:30.093 --> 00:35:34.473 Where is he? Is he coming home? Or what is going to happen when he does come home? 00:35:34.713 --> 00:35:39.553 And lurking beneath all of it is, is he with somebody else? You know, is this like before? 00:35:39.993 --> 00:35:43.393 And was that my fault? So will he blame this on me too? 00:35:44.133 --> 00:35:47.653 Back to the narcissist, not thinking about it. Maybe he went to a bar. 00:35:47.873 --> 00:35:49.833 Maybe he's at a friend's house. Maybe he just drove around for a while. 00:35:50.053 --> 00:35:53.733 The silence doesn't create the same discomfort for him that it creates for her. 00:35:54.113 --> 00:35:58.553 And now we get into more of what is the parasitic dynamic that researchers have 00:35:58.553 --> 00:36:02.233 identified in these narcissistic relationships where one person depletes the 00:36:02.233 --> 00:36:03.953 other while remaining unaffected. 00:36:04.573 --> 00:36:08.973 And here is why this matters. There's this gap of tolerance. 00:36:09.513 --> 00:36:13.233 Great name for an alternative man. He can sit in silence forever. 00:36:13.233 --> 00:36:15.013 She can't. So what typically happens? 00:36:15.253 --> 00:36:19.713 Eventually the silence becomes unbearable. Who is going to not be okay with 00:36:19.713 --> 00:36:22.793 that silence? She eventually texts, I'm sorry if I upset you. 00:36:23.013 --> 00:36:24.433 I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. 00:36:24.753 --> 00:36:28.353 Your job is so stressful and I should have had dinner planned. Can we please just talk? 00:36:28.793 --> 00:36:32.353 And boy, she just handed him a giant attack surface. 00:36:33.073 --> 00:36:35.673 She just apologized for something that wasn't her fault. 00:36:36.433 --> 00:36:38.973 She betrayed herself. She validated 00:36:38.973 --> 00:36:42.973 his victim position. She's taken responsibility for his behavior. 00:36:43.733 --> 00:36:50.293 So he gets rewarded for this silence that actually came easy for him and was difficult for her. 00:36:50.893 --> 00:36:55.133 And then I call it riding bikes. At some point, then he'll be fine. 00:36:55.473 --> 00:36:59.373 Hey, let's go ride bikes. And she's just devastated by what just happened. 00:36:59.533 --> 00:37:02.453 And it's going to take a few days to come back around. But she also knows she 00:37:02.453 --> 00:37:04.673 can't really have a productive conversation with him about it. 00:37:05.233 --> 00:37:10.573 When he finally comes home around 10, acting like nothing happened, he now has all the power. 00:37:11.273 --> 00:37:16.153 She's been reduced to a grateful, anxious mess who is just relieved that he came home at all. 00:37:16.793 --> 00:37:20.853 And if she dares to say, I was worried about you. Why didn't you answer my text? 00:37:21.113 --> 00:37:24.373 He can turn it around. Oh, I needed space after the way that you talked to me. 00:37:24.553 --> 00:37:27.753 I guess I'm not allowed to have my feelings now. You sure seem to say that we 00:37:27.753 --> 00:37:29.713 need to talk about our feelings. Well, these are my feelings. 00:37:29.833 --> 00:37:31.373 I feel like you're not nice to me. 00:37:32.013 --> 00:37:36.013 The silence was not about him processing his emotions. The silence was strategic. 00:37:36.333 --> 00:37:41.373 It was designed to create maximum anxiety, maximum self-doubt, maximum supply for him. 00:37:42.218 --> 00:37:46.758 And I see this play out in custody negotiations so often. The pathologically 00:37:46.758 --> 00:37:48.538 kind parent wants to co-parent effectively. 00:37:48.958 --> 00:37:52.018 They want to do what's best for the kids. So they spend hours crafting a thoughtful 00:37:52.018 --> 00:37:54.678 custody proposal they believe is fair and it's child-centered. 00:37:54.818 --> 00:37:58.158 They send it to their narcissistic ex and silence. 00:37:58.798 --> 00:38:00.498 Days go by, maybe a week. 00:38:01.178 --> 00:38:04.118 Finally, unable to stand the silence, they send the follow-up. 00:38:04.158 --> 00:38:05.898 Hey, just wondering if you had a chance to look at that proposal. 00:38:06.098 --> 00:38:08.138 I'd love to discuss any concerns you might have. 00:38:08.538 --> 00:38:11.798 There we go. The narcissist has exactly what they need. There's that attack 00:38:11.798 --> 00:38:13.018 surface. there's that supply. 00:38:13.238 --> 00:38:17.278 And now sure, they can bang this out real quick. Here's a list of all the things 00:38:17.278 --> 00:38:18.098 wrong with the proposal. 00:38:18.338 --> 00:38:21.298 And now they position themselves as the reasonable one who's just trying to 00:38:21.298 --> 00:38:24.238 do what's best for the kids while implying that the other parent is being controlling 00:38:24.238 --> 00:38:27.078 or inflexible with this crazy schedule that you proposed. 00:38:27.538 --> 00:38:31.358 Here's the thing though. They were not thinking about what custody schedule would be best. 00:38:31.838 --> 00:38:35.618 They were just doing whatever they were doing and then waiting until you finally 00:38:35.618 --> 00:38:38.698 push them enough that then sure, I'll respond. I'll tell you how dumb that is. 00:38:38.898 --> 00:38:41.298 They were just waiting for you to provide them with something to oppose. 00:38:41.298 --> 00:38:45.138 The silence is not awkward for them. It's tactical. 00:38:45.358 --> 00:38:50.298 What is really happening in these interactions? When you provide an attack surface, 00:38:50.638 --> 00:38:54.538 whether it's an honest statement about your busy day, a custody proposal, 00:38:54.578 --> 00:38:59.178 or even just asking a question, you're giving the narcissist their supply. 00:38:59.558 --> 00:39:04.638 And narcissistic supply is fuel for somebody that has a fragile ego, 00:39:04.918 --> 00:39:09.478 an unstable sense of self, because they require continuous reassurance and attention 00:39:09.478 --> 00:39:12.238 from those around them. but it's parasitic. 00:39:12.538 --> 00:39:15.098 And like a parasite, no matter how much you give, it's never enough. 00:39:15.638 --> 00:39:19.398 That flea is going to suck all the blood out of the animal until it pops. 00:39:19.538 --> 00:39:23.178 The mosquito is not going to stop until you smash it. 00:39:23.318 --> 00:39:25.998 I don't know. Maybe these aren't the greatest metaphors, but the narcissistic 00:39:25.998 --> 00:39:28.378 supply cycle consists of three key stages. 00:39:28.558 --> 00:39:32.398 There's idealization, there's devaluation, and then there's the discard. 00:39:32.998 --> 00:39:36.278 They get supply from both positive and negative interactions. 00:39:36.878 --> 00:39:40.118 If we go back to our opening story and we look at it through this lens, 00:39:40.278 --> 00:39:42.938 When they first got together, he idealized her. 00:39:43.078 --> 00:39:45.878 She was amazing and perfect and exactly what he needed. 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:49.779 She was high status to him. She made him feel good. 00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:53.799 She felt special. She felt adored, swept off her feet. Maybe he love-bombed 00:39:53.799 --> 00:39:56.999 her with intense affection and attention, devotion. 00:39:57.359 --> 00:40:02.519 But over time, the more they interacted, the more he realized he doesn't like 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:06.359 the way he feels in the relationship, and he's going to diffuse it over onto her. 00:40:06.799 --> 00:40:10.479 And how does he do that? When she makes comments, when she has ideas. 00:40:10.939 --> 00:40:15.299 Now we're back into that. Thank you for the supply. Thank you for this narcissistic 00:40:15.299 --> 00:40:16.499 fuel that you are giving me. 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:20.559 Because there's other things going on here too, where you go through life for 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:22.419 the very first time and now you have to make these decisions, 00:40:22.419 --> 00:40:24.719 maybe about moving or about jobs or about kids. 00:40:24.979 --> 00:40:30.039 And if she makes the decision first, now we're into that all or nothing black or white thinking. 00:40:30.299 --> 00:40:34.579 He thinks that, well, since you have that opinion and I don't have that opinion, 00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:36.519 you must think you're right and I'm wrong. 00:40:36.899 --> 00:40:40.019 And now I got to jump back into that one-up position. Over time, 00:40:40.399 --> 00:40:42.099 the devaluation slowly begins. 00:40:42.479 --> 00:40:45.639 Subtle criticisms, the cold silences when things weren't perfect. 00:40:45.819 --> 00:40:50.499 The reminders of her failures, the affair that he had, and then the blame of 00:40:50.499 --> 00:40:53.579 her for the affair that that's been placed on her shoulders. 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:57.679 In that phone call about dinner, we see devaluation in action. 00:40:57.939 --> 00:41:01.579 She provides an attack surface and he uses it to position himself as the victim 00:41:01.579 --> 00:41:04.099 while simultaneously devaluing her. 00:41:04.259 --> 00:41:07.379 You don't have dinner ready. You're not meeting my needs. You're failing. 00:41:07.839 --> 00:41:11.299 Then the three-hour disappearance. That's given her a taste of what discard 00:41:11.299 --> 00:41:14.619 feels like. The message is really clear there. From the narcissist, I can leave. 00:41:14.919 --> 00:41:17.199 I don't need you. You should be grateful when I come back. 00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:20.079 They get that supply from both positive and negative interactions. 00:41:20.779 --> 00:41:23.559 Positive supply would have been if she had responded to his coldness with, 00:41:23.659 --> 00:41:25.939 oh man, honey, I'm so sorry. You're right. I should have planned it better. 00:41:26.139 --> 00:41:31.039 You are the king and I am just a peasant and I need to do everything I can to 00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:32.639 make sure the king is happy. I should have planned better. 00:41:32.959 --> 00:41:37.039 I'll have a full meal ready in just 30 minutes. If you come on home and then 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.139 I'll massage your feet, I'll get something ready for you. 00:41:39.851 --> 00:41:42.671 That would have given him supply through her validation, her apology, 00:41:42.791 --> 00:41:45.171 her scrambling to meet his needs. That's right. You'll do that. 00:41:45.591 --> 00:41:49.731 But then the negative supply works too. And I think often it's more powerful 00:41:49.731 --> 00:41:52.931 because that negative supply involves provoking emotional reactions. 00:41:53.111 --> 00:41:57.831 And those include fear, insecurity, and control because it makes them feel more 00:41:57.831 --> 00:42:01.491 powerful and it defends against the shame and helplessness that they actually feel deep inside. 00:42:01.871 --> 00:42:05.071 So when she spends those three hours in anxiety, when she questioned herself, 00:42:05.251 --> 00:42:07.971 when she wondered if she was this bad wife when she feared he might not even 00:42:07.971 --> 00:42:10.391 come home, that was also feeding him. 00:42:10.971 --> 00:42:14.171 Even though he wasn't even there to see it, the power dynamic shifts. 00:42:14.551 --> 00:42:18.871 She becomes depleted. He enters back into the home in control. 00:42:19.551 --> 00:42:23.351 And if we could have seen inside his head during those three hours, 00:42:23.611 --> 00:42:25.631 I can't even think of a good joke about that. 00:42:26.131 --> 00:42:29.391 But he probably felt energized and powerful and in control. Finally, 00:42:29.631 --> 00:42:32.371 somebody recognizes how hard he works, how much he deserves. 00:42:32.591 --> 00:42:37.871 And he had to do this in order for her to appreciate what he does for the family. 00:42:38.811 --> 00:42:41.991 Unfortunately, this is why your attempts to explain yourself actually backfire. 00:42:42.731 --> 00:42:46.711 You may think you're having a conversation. You might even think that you're 00:42:46.711 --> 00:42:49.991 clearing up a misunderstanding, but from the narcissist perspective, 00:42:49.991 --> 00:42:54.151 you're giving them exactly what they need because every time you explain, 00:42:54.411 --> 00:42:57.351 you're giving them more material to work with, more buttons to push, 00:42:57.491 --> 00:43:01.231 more things to criticize, more opportunities to point out what's wrong with your thinking, 00:43:01.731 --> 00:43:04.091 more chances to position themselves as superior, 00:43:04.791 --> 00:43:07.811 more chances to then show how more of a victim they are. 00:43:08.730 --> 00:43:13.590 And let's go back to that infidelity. When she discovered it and when she was 00:43:13.590 --> 00:43:14.910 devastated, what did he do? 00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:17.650 He immediately turned it around completely. 00:43:18.530 --> 00:43:23.410 He made himself the victim. He made her responsible for his choice to betray her. 00:43:24.050 --> 00:43:29.210 And then for years afterward, anytime she tried to express her feelings about 00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:33.470 it, anytime the hint resurfaced, then he used it against her. 00:43:34.130 --> 00:43:37.090 Oh, you're never going to let that go, are you? I guess I'll be paying for one 00:43:37.090 --> 00:43:40.710 mistake for the rest of my life. you are so unforgiving and you don't appreciate me. 00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:45.530 She provided the attack surface, but it was her legitimate hurt. 00:43:45.790 --> 00:43:51.530 And then he used it to gain supply by positioning himself as the victim of her 00:43:51.530 --> 00:43:53.670 supposed inability to forgive. 00:43:53.970 --> 00:43:57.690 So now let's talk about the wife in our opening story, the pathologically kind 00:43:57.690 --> 00:44:00.230 person, the one who genuinely seeks connection. 00:44:00.490 --> 00:44:04.210 She wants to think the best in people, the one who thinks that with enough patience, 00:44:04.650 --> 00:44:08.570 enough explanation, enough understanding, she can reach her husband. 00:44:08.690 --> 00:44:11.130 She might even be able to give him that aha moment. 00:44:11.670 --> 00:44:15.910 People-pleasing, codependency, those kind of things typically develop from childhood 00:44:15.910 --> 00:44:20.970 experiences where you learned that your worth was conditional upon meeting other people's needs. 00:44:21.510 --> 00:44:27.430 At some point, and I cannot back this study up, but it was believed that up 00:44:27.430 --> 00:44:31.790 to 90% of the American population exhibits codependent behavior at some point in their lives. 00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:36.570 And if you look at individuals with a history of trauma or growing up in dysfunctional 00:44:36.570 --> 00:44:38.930 families, then they are at higher risk. 00:44:39.510 --> 00:44:44.530 So now let's go look at her thought process during those three hours when he was absent. 00:44:45.352 --> 00:44:48.792 Why didn't I just have dinner ready? So she's trying to take responsibility 00:44:48.792 --> 00:44:51.032 for something that really wasn't her fault. 00:44:51.492 --> 00:44:57.592 Is that too much for him to ask? He worked so hard, minimizing her own equally exhausting day. 00:44:58.132 --> 00:45:02.992 Or she was saying, but sometimes when dinner isn't ready, he's actually fine with it. 00:45:03.292 --> 00:45:06.712 Now she's trying to make sense of the nonsense, of the inconsistency. 00:45:06.832 --> 00:45:10.452 And she's not even realizing the inconsistency is the problem. 00:45:10.792 --> 00:45:12.612 The inconsistency is the weapon. 00:45:12.992 --> 00:45:16.472 Then she goes to, what did I do wrong? assuming that she must have done something 00:45:16.472 --> 00:45:21.112 wrong rather than just recognizing that it was just what it was. 00:45:21.232 --> 00:45:22.852 He was looking for an attack surface. 00:45:23.052 --> 00:45:28.732 And there's also that thought or belief where if I can make it a me problem, then I can fix it. 00:45:29.052 --> 00:45:33.572 And a lot of times in our subconscious, we're thinking, or we don't want to 00:45:33.572 --> 00:45:37.972 think that, oh man, is there nothing I can do to improve this situation? 00:45:38.312 --> 00:45:44.032 And there might not be from a couple standpoint, but there can be from a you standpoint. 00:45:44.852 --> 00:45:49.252 But this is the exhausting mental gymnastics that the pathologically kind people do. 00:45:49.692 --> 00:45:52.872 They'll twist themselves into pretzels. They're trying to understand what they 00:45:52.872 --> 00:45:55.372 could have done differently or how they could have prevented the conflict or 00:45:55.372 --> 00:45:58.612 what they need to change about themselves so that we can avoid this ever happening again. 00:45:59.252 --> 00:46:03.272 But here's the truth. What if she really didn't do anything major wrong? 00:46:03.512 --> 00:46:06.452 She had a busy day. She was a human being. She was honest about it. 00:46:06.712 --> 00:46:07.732 She offered to make dinner anyway. 00:46:08.192 --> 00:46:11.852 It's actually pretty healthy communication if we're in a secure relationship. 00:46:12.272 --> 00:46:16.652 So that problem wasn't her behavior. it was that her husband needed an attack surface. 00:46:16.872 --> 00:46:20.652 He needed friction and she provided it simply by being honest. 00:46:21.072 --> 00:46:24.472 My friend and colleague Ross Rosenberg, author of The Human Magnet Syndrome, 00:46:24.972 --> 00:46:28.632 I think he brilliantly describes these relationships, the pathologically kind 00:46:28.632 --> 00:46:31.832 and the narcissist or the emotionally immature as breakup resistant. 00:46:32.132 --> 00:46:35.772 In a previous podcast, I shared his insights. Here's what Ross says about it. 00:46:35.952 --> 00:46:39.952 He says, codependency is both a relationship and an individual condition that 00:46:39.952 --> 00:46:41.732 can only be resolved by the codependent. 00:46:42.363 --> 00:46:46.463 It's kind of deep. It has to be resolved by the person that is pathologically 00:46:46.463 --> 00:46:49.703 kind, that is continuing to try and provide this attack surface. 00:46:50.283 --> 00:46:55.223 But he said, many codependents are attracted to and maintain long-term breakup-resistant 00:46:55.223 --> 00:46:59.163 relationships with pathological narcissists, or what I would look at as the 00:46:59.163 --> 00:47:02.643 narcissist or the extremely emotionally immature. 00:47:03.103 --> 00:47:07.643 He said, most codependents are selfless, and they're differential to the needs 00:47:07.643 --> 00:47:09.563 and desires of other people over themselves. 00:47:09.883 --> 00:47:14.123 So they put others ahead of them. they're pathologically caring, 00:47:14.343 --> 00:47:18.943 they're responsible, and they are sacrificing people whose altruism and good 00:47:18.943 --> 00:47:20.423 deeds are rarely reciprocated. 00:47:20.543 --> 00:47:23.543 So they will continue to give and give and give, but they find themselves in 00:47:23.543 --> 00:47:26.763 interactions and relationships with people that when the pathologically kind 00:47:26.763 --> 00:47:29.343 person needs something, it is rarely reciprocated. 00:47:29.843 --> 00:47:33.423 And he said, while some codependents are resigned to their seemingly permanent 00:47:33.423 --> 00:47:39.123 relationship role, he said others actively, albeit unsuccessfully, attempt to change it. 00:47:39.423 --> 00:47:42.443 These people become preoccupied with opportunities to avoid, 00:47:42.663 --> 00:47:45.663 change, and or control their narcissistic partners. 00:47:46.163 --> 00:47:49.743 Despite the inequities in the relationship and the consequent suffering, 00:47:50.003 --> 00:47:51.823 they do not end the partnerships. 00:47:52.483 --> 00:47:56.423 Codependency is not just limited to romantic couplings. Ross said it manifests 00:47:56.423 --> 00:47:59.183 itself in varying degrees in most other significant relationships. 00:47:59.743 --> 00:48:02.763 He said this is what creates the human magnet syndrome. 00:48:03.143 --> 00:48:06.543 Because the harder that the pathologically kind person tries to figure out the 00:48:06.543 --> 00:48:08.523 relationship, the crazier they feel. 00:48:08.903 --> 00:48:12.883 Meanwhile, the narcissistic or the emotionally immature person learns subconsciously, 00:48:13.023 --> 00:48:17.823 maybe even consciously, how to manipulate the dynamic for their gain to get 00:48:17.823 --> 00:48:18.843 them in that one-up position. 00:48:19.813 --> 00:48:23.353 I think understanding these fundamentals helps us understand why reactive responses 00:48:23.353 --> 00:48:27.133 occur and then why they are often mischaracterized as abuse. 00:48:27.273 --> 00:48:32.653 And I've got an episode that is about reactive abuse or reactive reactions. 00:48:33.173 --> 00:48:37.193 And I highly recommend that you listen to that because setting the table in 00:48:37.193 --> 00:48:42.213 the way that we just have, I think will explain why so often when a pathologically 00:48:42.213 --> 00:48:44.473 kind person does lose their mind, 00:48:44.733 --> 00:48:49.873 they blow their top, they get angry, frustrated, and then they say mean things, 00:48:50.033 --> 00:48:51.793 that they don't just walk around saying to other people. 00:48:52.633 --> 00:48:56.993 When I say to them, well, that's reactive abuse. You wouldn't be doing that 00:48:56.993 --> 00:49:02.153 if you weren't interacting with this person who is then turning your words against 00:49:02.153 --> 00:49:06.013 you or gaslighting you or being so emotionally inconsistent. 00:49:06.253 --> 00:49:10.673 But then I love the fact that some of my clients felt like they all got together 00:49:10.673 --> 00:49:14.953 and had a meeting and said, yeah, but I don't want to be abusive, period. 00:49:15.173 --> 00:49:18.333 I don't care if it's reactive or not. So then I did this episode on reactive 00:49:18.333 --> 00:49:21.133 response and tried to really break that concept down. 00:49:21.773 --> 00:49:25.073 Because when somebody with pathological kindness finally reaches their breaking 00:49:25.073 --> 00:49:31.133 point after a sustained emotional neglect or manipulation, those reactions, they're inevitable. 00:49:32.293 --> 00:49:36.533 Pathologically kind people are so often drawn to narcissists because they believe they can help. 00:49:36.933 --> 00:49:40.753 They believe their kindness, their patience, their empathy can somehow fill 00:49:40.753 --> 00:49:45.113 that void in the narcissist, whether that's happening subconsciously or the 00:49:45.113 --> 00:49:48.913 pathologically kind person is completely aware, it comes from a good place. 00:49:49.273 --> 00:49:53.713 Because I cannot stress this enough, kindness is a gift. It is a wonderful value to have. 00:49:54.213 --> 00:49:58.153 But when it becomes pathological, it implies that it has now become something detrimental. 00:49:59.270 --> 00:50:03.930 And when people then differentiate within an unhealthy relationship or when 00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:05.190 they leave an unhealthy relationship, 00:50:05.190 --> 00:50:09.950 we will work on continuing to lean into that value of kindness, 00:50:09.950 --> 00:50:14.070 especially to those they interact with out in the wild or friends or family 00:50:14.070 --> 00:50:15.130 members, people in the community. 00:50:15.190 --> 00:50:20.310 It does not mean that we work on them stuffing or stifling their kindness or 00:50:20.310 --> 00:50:24.530 them not being kind because at this point, kindness is most likely in their bones. 00:50:24.730 --> 00:50:28.870 It's in their DNA, which is part of the challenge. But I think it's so important 00:50:28.870 --> 00:50:32.170 to understand that narcissists have this instinct for finding and attaching 00:50:32.170 --> 00:50:37.130 themselves to potential hosts who confer this status, but they're also enabling 00:50:37.130 --> 00:50:38.270 their self-serving worldview. 00:50:38.530 --> 00:50:42.530 They specifically target people who are compassionate, who are dedicated, who are conscientious. 00:50:42.870 --> 00:50:44.870 And I believe at times they are 00:50:44.870 --> 00:50:48.170 drawn to those people because deep inside they want to be more of that. 00:50:48.310 --> 00:50:53.270 But then when they try to do it, they revert right back to those familiar patterns from childhood. 00:50:54.150 --> 00:50:58.290 People who will provide the best supply for the longest period of time to the 00:50:58.290 --> 00:51:06.050 narcissist is the pathologically kind, is the empath, is the person who is just so desirous to help. 00:51:06.310 --> 00:51:10.290 And unfortunately, it's the person who is used to putting themselves second 00:51:10.290 --> 00:51:12.170 so that other people can be first. 00:51:12.350 --> 00:51:15.810 Back to the wife. She finds herself constantly on the side of the relationship 00:51:15.810 --> 00:51:18.510 where she's providing this attack surface. She's the one who's explaining. 00:51:18.710 --> 00:51:20.070 She's the one who's trying to understand. 00:51:20.290 --> 00:51:23.310 She's the one who's making efforts to connect. She's the one apologizing. 00:51:23.470 --> 00:51:24.550 She's the one taking responsibility. 00:51:24.930 --> 00:51:29.670 And where does that leave her? She feels unheard, misunderstood, 00:51:30.290 --> 00:51:35.390 anxious, drained, feeling emotionally overwhelmed, exhibiting symptoms of complex 00:51:35.390 --> 00:51:39.030 post-traumatic stress disorder, brain fog, memory loss. 00:51:39.250 --> 00:51:43.010 And she continually wonders, what did I do wrong? 00:51:44.417 --> 00:51:47.817 I want to very quickly go over my five rules of interacting with a narcissistic 00:51:47.817 --> 00:51:49.657 or emotionally immature person in your life. 00:51:49.917 --> 00:51:53.897 I have a handout that I just put together that I had not thought about till 00:51:53.897 --> 00:51:55.297 I'm recording this right now. 00:51:55.557 --> 00:51:59.497 So reach out to me and I can get that to you. And I go into a lot more detail, 00:51:59.497 --> 00:52:02.697 the five rules of interacting with the emotionally immature narcissistic person. 00:52:02.837 --> 00:52:05.497 The first one is raising your emotional baseline. That's self-care. 00:52:05.837 --> 00:52:10.697 You're going to need to be in the best place you can if you are choosing to 00:52:10.697 --> 00:52:13.677 stay in this relationship, if you're trying to create space, 00:52:13.857 --> 00:52:16.957 if you're ready to leave an emotionally abusive, emotionally immature, 00:52:17.077 --> 00:52:18.037 narcissistic relationship. 00:52:18.457 --> 00:52:21.477 Self-care is not selfish. It is absolutely necessary. 00:52:21.557 --> 00:52:26.277 And this is the challenge for the pathologically kind person or the person in 00:52:26.277 --> 00:52:27.457 the relationship with the narcissist, 00:52:27.457 --> 00:52:32.557 because they are so caught up in trying to figure out what's wrong with them 00:52:32.557 --> 00:52:37.777 or how do they show up different or trying to read the tea leaves of the narcissistic communication. 00:52:38.457 --> 00:52:42.677 And all of that, most all of that becomes a waste of emotional calories. 00:52:43.117 --> 00:52:46.437 And they need to raise their emotional baseline, self-care. 00:52:46.617 --> 00:52:50.517 And it can be anything from starting to read a book, to petting a dog, 00:52:50.677 --> 00:52:54.897 to starting to dream and hope, to then getting out and exercising and eating 00:52:54.897 --> 00:52:58.317 better and taking courses and classes and communicating with people that will 00:52:58.317 --> 00:53:00.797 understand what they're going through, going to therapy, group therapy. 00:53:01.377 --> 00:53:05.497 The second one is to get your PhD in gaslighting to know that, 00:53:05.697 --> 00:53:06.917 okay, maybe I'm not crazy. 00:53:07.077 --> 00:53:12.377 This is what I said, or that is not what he did that he's saying that he did now. 00:53:13.057 --> 00:53:16.537 And that leads to the third one, which is get yourself out of those unproductive 00:53:16.537 --> 00:53:19.817 conversations because the longer you stay in them, especially if you're being 00:53:19.817 --> 00:53:25.497 gaslit and your emotional baseline's low, now we're headed toward that unavoidable amygdala hijack. 00:53:25.737 --> 00:53:29.357 When your heart rate starts to elevate, you feel crazy, you start to react, 00:53:29.597 --> 00:53:31.457 your fight or flight response is kicking in. 00:53:31.597 --> 00:53:34.397 And when it does that, you can't access the part of your brain, 00:53:34.497 --> 00:53:36.917 the prefrontal cortex that can access the logical thought. 00:53:37.137 --> 00:53:41.237 So you get in this fight or flight response. So when you stay in a conversation 00:53:41.237 --> 00:53:45.737 too long, providing this attack surface, then at some point your brain just 00:53:45.737 --> 00:53:47.517 says, no, this is not safe. 00:53:48.369 --> 00:53:51.549 And then the fourth one is learn to set healthy boundaries and really understand 00:53:51.549 --> 00:53:53.249 the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum. 00:53:53.509 --> 00:53:59.369 The boundary is, it's a me thing. If you continue to do this, then I am going to leave. 00:54:00.169 --> 00:54:04.609 An ultimatum is saying, hey, you can't keep doing that because to the narcissist, 00:54:04.769 --> 00:54:09.089 now we know, oh, well, thank you for showing me what's important that I can now use against you. 00:54:09.609 --> 00:54:14.329 And then the last one, the most difficult part is know that you will never be 00:54:14.329 --> 00:54:18.349 the one to give that person the aha moment or the epiphany. It has to come from them. 00:54:18.569 --> 00:54:23.509 The more that you try and explain yourself, the more attack surface you provide, 00:54:23.629 --> 00:54:27.009 the more that you show them which buttons are really important for you, 00:54:27.029 --> 00:54:31.829 and the more that they can put in this treasure chest of things that they can use against you. 00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:37.329 So back to the wife, I go back to this truth. She didn't really do anything wrong. 00:54:37.869 --> 00:54:43.329 Her husband wasn't trying to understand her. He wasn't genuinely curious about her day. 00:54:44.249 --> 00:54:49.129 He was just interacting with her in order to get her to start saying words so 00:54:49.129 --> 00:54:50.769 he could then get a supply. 00:54:51.589 --> 00:54:54.949 And every time that she explains herself every time she defends her position 00:54:54.949 --> 00:54:58.069 every time she tries to make him understand she's giving him exactly what he 00:54:58.069 --> 00:55:01.069 needs and she's depleting herself further and further and further. 00:55:01.509 --> 00:55:06.049 When he finally came home that night around 10 o'clock what probably happened? 00:55:06.529 --> 00:55:09.469 Maybe he acted like nothing was wrong. Walked in, grabbed something from the 00:55:09.469 --> 00:55:13.789 fridge sat on the couch and if she said hey I was really worried about you I 00:55:13.789 --> 00:55:16.729 can imagine a response like, I told you I was fine. 00:55:16.809 --> 00:55:19.049 I needed some space. Can we not turn this into a big deal? 00:55:19.469 --> 00:55:22.189 Or maybe he came in still cold and she had to walk on eggshells, 00:55:22.249 --> 00:55:25.689 trying to read his mood, trying to figure out if she should apologize again or just stay quiet. 00:55:25.889 --> 00:55:27.849 But either way, she's depleted. 00:55:28.569 --> 00:55:32.309 She's anxious. She's second guessing herself. And he's maintained this one position 00:55:32.309 --> 00:55:35.409 without ever having to take responsibility for anything. 00:55:36.315 --> 00:55:40.415 So like a parasite that feeds off of a host organism, the narcissist depletes 00:55:40.415 --> 00:55:43.295 their partner of their physical and their emotional resources. 00:55:43.515 --> 00:55:46.855 They alienate the person from their self-preserving instincts, 00:55:47.035 --> 00:55:52.035 from their gut feelings, and also from the ability to maintain safe personal boundaries. 00:55:52.415 --> 00:55:56.895 And this is the exhausting reality of being in a relationship with a narcissist 00:55:56.895 --> 00:55:58.635 or an extremely emotionally immature person. 00:55:58.755 --> 00:56:03.075 It's not a relationship of mutual understanding or of genuine curiosity or of 00:56:03.075 --> 00:56:08.375 reciprocity, it's a relationship of predation, competition, or parasitism. 00:56:08.915 --> 00:56:12.855 So how do you break the cycle? How do you stop providing attack surfaces without 00:56:12.855 --> 00:56:14.535 becoming callous or unkind yourself? 00:56:15.355 --> 00:56:18.355 Let's think again about what the wife in the opening story maybe could have 00:56:18.355 --> 00:56:19.975 done differently. Not to fix 00:56:19.975 --> 00:56:23.335 her husband, because she can't fix a narcissist, but to protect herself. 00:56:23.695 --> 00:56:26.655 One of the first things you can do is recognition, awareness. 00:56:26.955 --> 00:56:30.675 You have to recognize that you cannot out-explain, out-reason, 00:56:30.775 --> 00:56:33.135 or out-fair someone who needs conflict to exist. 00:56:33.395 --> 00:56:37.355 You cannot logic your way into a narcissist understanding because understanding 00:56:37.355 --> 00:56:40.475 is not what they're seeking. They are not being genuinely curious. 00:56:40.735 --> 00:56:43.875 When he went cold on that phone call, that was the information. 00:56:44.255 --> 00:56:47.255 That wasn't a misunderstanding that needed to be fixed. That was him getting 00:56:47.255 --> 00:56:49.515 what he needed, a reason to position himself as a victim. 00:56:50.175 --> 00:56:54.515 Second, now that you're aware of this, stop providing attack surfaces. 00:56:55.375 --> 00:56:59.575 And I'm not saying that is like you are doing it wrong. First time you're going 00:56:59.575 --> 00:57:02.575 through life is you. Now you're having this awareness. You're going to have to get some reps in. 00:57:03.055 --> 00:57:05.555 Here's what that could look like in the phone call. Hey, just leave and work. 00:57:05.635 --> 00:57:08.115 Be home in about 15 minutes. Great. See you soon. That's it. 00:57:08.275 --> 00:57:09.275 No explanation of her day. 00:57:10.135 --> 00:57:13.315 She wants to be heard and understood, but I would imagine she had enough of 00:57:13.315 --> 00:57:16.575 those experiences that didn't go well that her spidey sense, 00:57:16.715 --> 00:57:21.275 her gut reaction was probably telling her, this is a risk, but let me tell them about my day. 00:57:22.055 --> 00:57:26.355 No explanation, no mention of not having dinner ready, just a simple neutral response. 00:57:26.655 --> 00:57:29.975 Now you might be thinking, but that's not being honest. She should be able to 00:57:29.975 --> 00:57:33.895 share about her day. And you are correct in a healthy relationship. 00:57:34.215 --> 00:57:37.895 She absolutely should, but this isn't a healthy relationship. 00:57:38.275 --> 00:57:42.615 And until she's ready to leave the relationship or he's willing to do serious 00:57:42.615 --> 00:57:45.715 therapeutic work, which is kind of rare with a narcissistic or emotionally immature 00:57:45.715 --> 00:57:48.775 person, she does need to start to learn to protect herself. 00:57:49.555 --> 00:57:54.235 Another thing that she could do is being strategic with her silence and understand 00:57:54.235 --> 00:57:55.455 the concepts around gray rocking. 00:57:55.835 --> 00:57:59.655 When he disappeared for three hours, what she could have done instead of spiraling 00:57:59.655 --> 00:58:02.735 and anxiety and sending multiple texts, nothing. 00:58:04.033 --> 00:58:09.013 Let the silence sit and it's uncomfortable and our brains are wired to alleviate 00:58:09.013 --> 00:58:10.393 discomfort and seek certainty. 00:58:10.773 --> 00:58:15.653 So it makes sense. And she didn't know what she didn't know. And now the work begins. 00:58:16.273 --> 00:58:19.073 Document internally that he said he'd be home in 15 minutes and didn't show 00:58:19.073 --> 00:58:22.973 up for three hours, but don't chase, don't apologize. Don't provide more attack surfaces. 00:58:23.353 --> 00:58:26.533 When he finally came home, instead of asking where he was or expressing her 00:58:26.533 --> 00:58:29.773 worry, both of which again, provide attack surfaces that he can use against 00:58:29.773 --> 00:58:35.493 her and also would be healthy in a healthy relationship, but if she was in a 00:58:35.493 --> 00:58:38.293 healthy relationship, he wouldn't have done it in the first place. 00:58:39.053 --> 00:58:42.433 So instead, maybe she could have said something like, hey, I see your home and 00:58:42.433 --> 00:58:43.713 gone back to whatever she was doing. 00:58:44.193 --> 00:58:48.733 This is where strategies like gray rocking come in, making yourself as uninteresting 00:58:48.733 --> 00:58:53.553 and unengaging as possible, like a gray rock, so that interactions become less 00:58:53.553 --> 00:58:54.653 rewarding for the narcissist. 00:58:55.253 --> 00:58:58.833 Now, I do want to address or acknowledge something about the gray rock method. 00:58:59.133 --> 00:59:02.213 Some professionals caution that the gray rock method 00:59:02.213 --> 00:59:05.113 can make you seem inauthentic and especially if we're 00:59:05.113 --> 00:59:07.993 back to talking about in things like court settings and it 00:59:07.993 --> 00:59:10.773 could potentially damage your credibility and there's a risk 00:59:10.773 --> 00:59:13.893 of becoming alienated from your own feelings and needs when suppressing yours 00:59:13.893 --> 00:59:18.313 for extended periods of time so my my guidance my thoughts gray rocking is a 00:59:18.313 --> 00:59:21.673 tool it's not a permanent state of being learn to use it strategically during 00:59:21.673 --> 00:59:25.153 interactions with the narcissist especially in things like written communication 00:59:25.153 --> 00:59:28.973 and day-to-day interactions and it will start to be more evident as you understand 00:59:28.973 --> 00:59:30.373 this concept of the attack surface. 00:59:31.967 --> 00:59:35.007 As a human please maintain your full emotional range 00:59:35.007 --> 00:59:38.307 with your support system with your therapist with your trusted friends and most 00:59:38.307 --> 00:59:42.587 importantly don't use gray rock as a long-term solution for a marriage gray 00:59:42.587 --> 00:59:45.607 rock is about limiting engagement if you're at the point where you need to gray 00:59:45.607 --> 00:59:50.187 rock your spouse on a regular basis probably need to make a plan either for 00:59:50.187 --> 00:59:53.947 intensive couples therapy with a therapist who understands this dynamic or your 00:59:53.947 --> 00:59:57.067 own personal therapy but it's time to do something. 00:59:58.007 --> 01:00:02.207 And fourth, the last, build your tolerance for discomfort because the narcissist 01:00:02.207 --> 01:00:05.727 has a very high tolerance for inaction and silence. 01:00:05.927 --> 01:00:11.507 And so if you are staying, especially for now, learn to build your tolerance. 01:00:11.747 --> 01:00:15.507 This means working on becoming differentiated, knowing who you are without needing 01:00:15.507 --> 01:00:20.847 someone else to tell you, learning to calm your own anxiety, soothe yourself, 01:00:21.627 --> 01:00:28.707 learning to not get so reactive, but also at times to not play small and then 01:00:28.707 --> 01:00:32.207 taking ownership of your part of whatever you need to take ownership of and 01:00:32.207 --> 01:00:35.047 not projecting it onto the other person like most likely he's doing to you. 01:00:35.867 --> 01:00:38.047 And make meaningful effort for change. 01:00:38.867 --> 01:00:42.767 Manage the anxiety that comes with not over-explaining, not defending yourself 01:00:42.767 --> 01:00:44.247 because it will be very uncomfortable. 01:00:44.927 --> 01:00:49.007 Try your best to not try and fix the misunderstanding to give him the aha moment. 01:00:49.247 --> 01:00:52.027 For the wife in the story today, this would mean sitting with the discomfort 01:00:52.027 --> 01:00:56.227 of not having dinner perfectly planned, not explaining her busy day, 01:00:56.427 --> 01:00:59.847 not apologizing for something that wasn't her fault, not chasing after him when 01:00:59.847 --> 01:01:03.467 he disappeared, not knowing where he was, not getting reassurance that he still loved her. 01:01:03.627 --> 01:01:07.607 All of that discomfort is so real. I'm not saying that it won't feel, 01:01:07.947 --> 01:01:12.867 but sitting with it, moving through it, learning where it is, somatic work. 01:01:12.947 --> 01:01:15.267 Where do I feel that in my body? What does it feel like? Is it big? 01:01:15.387 --> 01:01:18.067 Is it small? Does it pulsate? Is it stabbing? What does it feel like? 01:01:18.187 --> 01:01:21.047 Where is it? thank you body for allowing me to feel these emotions. 01:01:21.047 --> 01:01:25.167 I'm not going to just try to diffuse them onto somebody else or stuff them down 01:01:25.167 --> 01:01:26.427 anymore. I'm going to make room for them. 01:01:26.747 --> 01:01:30.767 All that discomfort. The anxiety is real, but feeding into it by providing attack 01:01:30.767 --> 01:01:34.227 surfaces, unfortunately makes it worse and it depletes her further. 01:01:35.147 --> 01:01:39.687 Document patterns and incidents. If you're headed toward things like divorce 01:01:39.687 --> 01:01:43.927 or custody battles, or if you're even just trying to figure out if you are sane, document. 01:01:44.167 --> 01:01:48.007 This becomes crucial. And you don't need to focus on explaining individual incidents, 01:01:48.127 --> 01:01:50.867 which would just create more attack surfaces, but you can document patterns. 01:01:51.187 --> 01:01:54.307 Just for an example, pattern of disappearing when asked reasonable questions, 01:01:54.447 --> 01:01:56.867 pattern of turning off location and going no contact for hours, 01:01:57.147 --> 01:02:00.287 a pattern of blaming the spouse for his choices, like the infidelity, 01:02:00.547 --> 01:02:02.547 a pattern of inconsistent responses. 01:02:03.267 --> 01:02:06.667 Sometimes dinner not being ready is fine. Sometimes it triggers hours of punishment. 01:02:06.907 --> 01:02:10.227 The patterns are much harder to defend against than individual incidents because 01:02:10.227 --> 01:02:12.347 patterns show this larger dynamic at play. 01:02:13.162 --> 01:02:16.782 So bigger picture, let's wrap this thing up. Here's what I would love for you 01:02:16.782 --> 01:02:17.782 to understand about all of this. 01:02:17.902 --> 01:02:20.622 The dynamic I'm describing, the attack surface, the supply cycle, 01:02:20.742 --> 01:02:21.802 the one-up position, the silence 01:02:21.802 --> 01:02:25.342 as a weapon, this isn't about him being difficult or her being difficult. 01:02:25.982 --> 01:02:29.482 There's some research that shows a significant relationship between narcissism 01:02:29.482 --> 01:02:31.122 and these insecure attachment styles. 01:02:31.482 --> 01:02:35.562 So with vulnerable narcissism, particularly linked to preoccupied and these 01:02:35.562 --> 01:02:36.722 fearful attachment patterns. 01:02:36.942 --> 01:02:40.482 So for some people, narcissism may emerge as a defensive coping strategy and 01:02:40.482 --> 01:02:45.362 it develops when early attachments were marked by inconsistency or neglect or abuse. 01:02:45.602 --> 01:02:50.742 They are as inconsistent as the care providers that they interacted with. 01:02:51.042 --> 01:02:55.562 And I realize that I'm at risk here of sharing this and then causing you, 01:02:55.722 --> 01:02:58.862 the pathologically kind person, to feel more sorry for the narcissist or the 01:02:58.862 --> 01:03:00.682 incredibly emotionally immature person in your life. 01:03:00.962 --> 01:03:05.162 But what I'm sharing it for is so that you understand that this is a deeply 01:03:05.162 --> 01:03:09.902 entrenched pattern and it has nothing to do with your worth or your efforts and you're not too much. 01:03:10.462 --> 01:03:14.002 The wife in our opening story today could have been the most perfect wife imaginable. 01:03:14.142 --> 01:03:16.142 Dinner ready every night, how spotless, never complaining. 01:03:16.522 --> 01:03:19.402 It would not have changed the dynamic. And I think that is so important to know 01:03:19.402 --> 01:03:24.402 because that does not give the narcissist a sense of self. They will still find something. 01:03:25.002 --> 01:03:28.142 The narcissist will always find an attack surface. If she would have dinner 01:03:28.142 --> 01:03:31.142 ready, maybe it would have been the wrong meal or it was too hot or cold or 01:03:31.142 --> 01:03:33.882 it was ready at the wrong time or cooked wrong or served at the wrong time. 01:03:33.942 --> 01:03:36.462 Or she would have spent too much money on groceries or you know that I don't 01:03:36.462 --> 01:03:38.282 like this food or why didn't you serve something else? 01:03:38.982 --> 01:03:42.442 The attack surface isn't about what you did or didn't do. It's about what they 01:03:42.442 --> 01:03:45.862 need to maintain to have their false sense of self. 01:03:46.022 --> 01:03:49.802 You cannot love them out of this pattern. You cannot explain your way to understanding. 01:03:50.062 --> 01:03:53.382 You can't be kind enough or patient enough or perfect enough to change the dynamic. 01:03:53.782 --> 01:03:57.422 The only thing that you can do is change your participation in it. 01:03:57.722 --> 01:04:00.782 And for those of you who are currently in marriages like the one I described 01:04:00.782 --> 01:04:06.182 in the opening today, I want you to hear this very clearly. I worry that it's not sustainable. 01:04:06.982 --> 01:04:10.282 The anxiety of walking on eggshells, of never knowing what will trigger the 01:04:10.282 --> 01:04:14.602 next disappearance, or cold shoulder, or rage, the consistent second-guessing 01:04:14.602 --> 01:04:18.402 of yourself, the depletion of your energy, your joy, your sense of self, 01:04:18.882 --> 01:04:23.102 the way you're modeling relationship dynamics for your kids, it's real. 01:04:23.502 --> 01:04:27.402 It takes a serious toll on your mental health, and that leads to problems with 01:04:27.402 --> 01:04:30.062 your physical health, your sense of reality. 01:04:30.282 --> 01:04:33.302 And if you're navigating the court system with the narcissistic ex, 01:04:33.422 --> 01:04:34.702 the same principles will apply. 01:04:35.162 --> 01:04:38.682 They'll use every tool available to maintain their supply and their one-up position 01:04:38.682 --> 01:04:43.442 they will delay they will accuse they will play the victim they will paint you as unreasonable. 01:04:44.481 --> 01:04:49.461 Here's the weakness. They're so focused on opposing you that they rarely offer genuine solutions. 01:04:49.921 --> 01:04:53.621 They're so focused on gaining supply that they forget the actual goal is supposed 01:04:53.621 --> 01:04:54.781 to be what's best for the kids. 01:04:55.241 --> 01:04:58.981 So I go back to document everything. Be the parent who consistently offers reasonable 01:04:58.981 --> 01:05:01.421 proposals because that's who I am. 01:05:01.681 --> 01:05:05.301 Be the parent who communicates briefly and factually. Be the parent who focuses 01:05:05.301 --> 01:05:07.601 on the children's needs rather than engaging in drama. 01:05:07.721 --> 01:05:11.461 And most importantly, stop trying to give them the aha moment or the epiphany. 01:05:11.721 --> 01:05:14.761 Stop providing them the attack surfaces for them to exploit. 01:05:15.361 --> 01:05:18.021 So let me take you back to that opening scene. She's sitting on the couch. 01:05:18.241 --> 01:05:20.921 It's 8.37 PM, phone in hand, wondering if she should text again. 01:05:21.041 --> 01:05:23.161 But now imagine she understands what's actually happening. 01:05:23.461 --> 01:05:26.961 That silence isn't awkward. It's informational. It's telling her exactly who 01:05:26.961 --> 01:05:29.561 she's dealing with. And it's showing her the pattern. 01:05:29.841 --> 01:05:32.461 She doesn't need to send the text. She doesn't need to apologize. 01:05:32.841 --> 01:05:36.361 She doesn't take responsibility for his behavior. Instead, she documents. 01:05:36.841 --> 01:05:40.961 Phone call at 5.15 where she mentioned having a busy day. his cold response 01:05:40.961 --> 01:05:43.661 and abrupt hang up, his failure to arrive home when expected, 01:05:44.181 --> 01:05:47.301 his location services turned off, multiple attempts to reach him ignored, 01:05:47.741 --> 01:05:49.521 returned home at 10.07 with no explanation. 01:05:49.901 --> 01:05:52.581 It's not about gathering evidence to use against him in the moment. 01:05:52.941 --> 01:05:56.541 And I think that's one of the things that I don't think I understood early in 01:05:56.541 --> 01:05:58.721 my practice. This is more about your sanity. 01:05:59.161 --> 01:06:03.961 This is about learning to see patterns so clearly so that then you can make 01:06:03.961 --> 01:06:05.381 informed decisions about the future. 01:06:05.761 --> 01:06:09.421 So back to this example, here's what happens. She stops feeding the dynamic. 01:06:09.461 --> 01:06:12.481 She stops providing attack surfaces. She stops giving him his supply. 01:06:12.681 --> 01:06:15.561 And does this mean he will suddenly become reasonable? No. 01:06:16.277 --> 01:06:18.917 He might actually even escalate at times. He might even rage at times. 01:06:19.037 --> 01:06:22.237 He might play the victim even harder. He might accuse her of being cold or distant 01:06:22.237 --> 01:06:24.057 or unloving and project that all over her. 01:06:24.397 --> 01:06:28.597 But the crucial difference is she's no longer participating in a way that depletes her. 01:06:28.977 --> 01:06:33.117 She's no longer handing over her sense of self, her energy, her sanity. 01:06:33.537 --> 01:06:37.137 She's taking her power back in that process. She's either going to create space 01:06:37.137 --> 01:06:41.157 for him to recognize he needs to help and seek serious therapeutic invention. 01:06:41.337 --> 01:06:43.617 Rare, but possible. I've known a unicorn or two. 01:06:44.237 --> 01:06:48.097 Or building a clear picture of the dynamic so she can make informed decisions 01:06:48.097 --> 01:06:49.637 about whether this marriage is sustainable. 01:06:50.337 --> 01:06:53.257 For those of you who are in the divorce or the custody battle phase, 01:06:53.457 --> 01:06:56.997 remember a narcissist's need for supply is insatiable. 01:06:57.157 --> 01:07:01.097 No matter how much you give, it's never enough to fill their emptiness and satisfy the hunger. 01:07:01.437 --> 01:07:04.757 When they don't respond to your custody proposal, that silence is information. 01:07:04.837 --> 01:07:06.157 They don't have a better idea. 01:07:06.357 --> 01:07:08.357 They're just waiting for you to provide more attack surfaces. 01:07:08.517 --> 01:07:11.937 And sometimes just knowing that will help you stay more grounded when they do 01:07:11.937 --> 01:07:14.837 attack the thing that they were unwilling to provide in the first place. 01:07:15.137 --> 01:07:17.337 They are just opposing you to gain supply. 01:07:17.877 --> 01:07:21.917 When they disappear or they turn cold or they rage, it's not about what you did. 01:07:22.097 --> 01:07:26.277 That's about maintaining the one-up position and creating your anxiety, which feeds them. 01:07:26.917 --> 01:07:30.137 And they will do whatever they can, push the right button, get bigger, 01:07:30.337 --> 01:07:33.717 louder, withdraw more to get you back into that familiar pattern. 01:07:34.397 --> 01:07:38.197 You cannot fill their void. You cannot fix this with better explanations or 01:07:38.197 --> 01:07:42.457 more patience or more fairness, but you can stop participating in a dynamic that drains you. 01:07:42.677 --> 01:07:46.817 You can stop providing attack surfaces. You can build your tolerance for silence and discomfort. 01:07:46.957 --> 01:07:50.537 You can shift from defending yourself to documenting the patterns. 01:07:50.537 --> 01:07:55.217 And you can do all of this while still being the kind, genuine person you've always been. 01:07:55.497 --> 01:07:56.937 Just now you'll have better boundaries 01:07:56.937 --> 01:07:59.097 and a clearer understanding of what you're actually dealing with. 01:07:59.837 --> 01:08:03.177 So let me bring this all together. Today, we've talked about some really heavy 01:08:03.177 --> 01:08:06.677 concepts, the attack surface, antagonistic attachment, the silence as a weapon, 01:08:06.797 --> 01:08:10.597 whole object relations, object constancy, narcissistic supply, the one-up position. 01:08:10.977 --> 01:08:14.077 But here's some key takeaways. First, you are not crazy. The phone call about 01:08:14.077 --> 01:08:18.077 dinner wasn't about dinner. The three-hour disappearance, that wasn't about him needing space. 01:08:18.357 --> 01:08:21.797 The affair being your fault is ridiculous, never true. 01:08:22.457 --> 01:08:25.797 When you feel like you're losing your mind, trying to understand the inconsistencies, 01:08:26.037 --> 01:08:28.757 the coldness, the sudden shifts from idealization to devaluation, 01:08:28.877 --> 01:08:32.017 that's because you're trying to apply logic to a dynamic that isn't logical. 01:08:32.017 --> 01:08:35.937 You're trying to have a rational conversation with someone who cannot hold complexity. 01:08:36.377 --> 01:08:39.677 Stop questioning your sanity and start trusting what you're observing. 01:08:40.457 --> 01:08:44.057 Every time you over-explain or apologize for things that aren't your fault or 01:08:44.057 --> 01:08:47.417 chase after their approval, you're handing them the attack surface. 01:08:47.597 --> 01:08:51.317 You're giving them exactly what they need to maintain their sense of self while depleting your own. 01:08:52.297 --> 01:08:55.317 Recognition is your first superpower. Once you see the pattern, 01:08:55.597 --> 01:08:58.477 it's hard to unsee and you can stop participating in it. 01:08:59.197 --> 01:09:02.497 And next, their silence, their coldness, their disappearances. 01:09:02.617 --> 01:09:06.317 These are not bugs in the system. They're features to them. They're strategic. 01:09:06.577 --> 01:09:10.077 They're designed to create your anxiety, which feeds them. Your anxiety is the supply. 01:09:11.074 --> 01:09:15.274 Stop letting their comfort with silence manipulate you into providing more attack surfacism. 01:09:15.454 --> 01:09:18.774 You can't love somebody out of a lack of whole object relations and object constancy. 01:09:18.874 --> 01:09:20.754 You can't explain your way into their understanding. 01:09:20.894 --> 01:09:25.094 You cannot be perfect enough to prevent the devaluation because the problem was never you. 01:09:25.554 --> 01:09:29.414 The problem is that they can only see people as all good or all bad. 01:09:29.514 --> 01:09:34.194 And the moment you're human, the moment you have a busy day or a need or a boundary, 01:09:34.394 --> 01:09:38.734 or you say no to a request, you switch from high status to low status in their 01:09:38.734 --> 01:09:41.334 mind. That's about their limitation, not your worth. 01:09:41.854 --> 01:09:47.514 And finally, you actually have more power than you think. The power to choose yourself. 01:09:48.154 --> 01:09:50.874 So here's what I want you to know. And I really want you to hear this. 01:09:51.414 --> 01:09:54.054 You're not the supporting character in somebody else's story. 01:09:54.214 --> 01:09:55.774 You're the author in your own life. 01:09:56.034 --> 01:10:00.034 For so long, you've been living in this reaction mode, reacting to their moods, 01:10:00.154 --> 01:10:02.634 managing their emotions, walking on eggshells, questioning yourself, 01:10:03.114 --> 01:10:06.974 shrinking yourself, apologizing for your humanity, making yourself smaller and 01:10:06.974 --> 01:10:10.614 smaller, hoping that if you just get it right this time, they'll finally see you. 01:10:10.914 --> 01:10:14.114 They'll finally value you, finally love you the way you deserve. 01:10:14.294 --> 01:10:16.274 But here's the truth that will set you free. 01:10:16.554 --> 01:10:21.694 They can't. And it's not because you're not enough. You are more than enough. 01:10:22.294 --> 01:10:26.654 But because they lack the internal capacity to see you in your full complexity, 01:10:26.974 --> 01:10:31.694 your light, your brilliance, your radiance is too much for them because they 01:10:31.694 --> 01:10:32.654 don't have it themselves. 01:10:33.474 --> 01:10:37.234 To hold on to love while experiencing disappointment, to value you, 01:10:37.234 --> 01:10:40.374 even when you're imperfect, to be a true partner instead of somebody who needs 01:10:40.374 --> 01:10:41.894 you to be all good or all bad. 01:10:42.194 --> 01:10:45.414 And that limitation, that's on them. It's not you. 01:10:45.974 --> 01:10:47.934 So here's your permission slip. 01:10:48.634 --> 01:10:51.614 Stop auditioning for a role you've already earned. You don't need to prove you're 01:10:51.614 --> 01:10:55.874 a good wife, a good husband, a good parent, a good person, a good kid, a good adult child. 01:10:55.914 --> 01:11:00.074 You are, but you've been bending over backward, twisting yourself into pretzels, 01:11:00.294 --> 01:11:04.094 exhausting yourself, trying to be seen by somebody who can only see their own reflection. 01:11:04.954 --> 01:11:08.814 It's time to redirect that energy back to yourself. You are allowed to have 01:11:08.814 --> 01:11:11.534 a busy day without it being an attack on somebody else. You're allowed to have 01:11:11.534 --> 01:11:12.814 needs without being called selfish. 01:11:13.034 --> 01:11:16.454 You're allowed to say no without three hours of punishment. You're allowed to 01:11:16.454 --> 01:11:18.894 be imperfect without becoming worthless in somebody's eyes. 01:11:19.034 --> 01:11:22.114 You're allowed to stop explaining yourself to somebody who is never listening 01:11:22.114 --> 01:11:23.694 or not genuinely curious anyway. 01:11:23.854 --> 01:11:27.374 And most important, you are allowed to choose peace over chaos. 01:11:27.614 --> 01:11:31.274 And I know it will be scary. And I know you've been in this pattern for so long 01:11:31.274 --> 01:11:33.154 that breaking it feels impossible. 01:11:33.614 --> 01:11:36.374 And I know you're probably worried about what will happen if you stop providing 01:11:36.374 --> 01:11:38.914 a tax services. Will they leave? Will they rage? Will things get worse? 01:11:39.454 --> 01:11:41.274 But here's what I've seen time and time again. 01:11:42.276 --> 01:11:45.456 Of people who've walked this path before you. When you stop participating in 01:11:45.456 --> 01:11:46.736 the dynamic, here's what happens to you. 01:11:46.876 --> 01:11:50.596 You start to remember who you were before you became an attack service. 01:11:50.776 --> 01:11:53.836 You start to reconnect with your own thoughts, your own feelings, your own worth. 01:11:54.036 --> 01:11:58.736 You start to breathe again. You start to laugh again. You start to dream again. You reclaim your life. 01:11:59.036 --> 01:12:01.696 This is your wake up call, not to fix them, not to try harder, 01:12:01.956 --> 01:12:04.376 not to be more understanding or more patient or more perfect. 01:12:05.216 --> 01:12:08.556 This is your wake up call to remember. You matter. Your needs matter. 01:12:08.716 --> 01:12:10.276 Your feelings matter. Your peace matters. 01:12:10.456 --> 01:12:12.836 And you don't need anyone else's permission, especially not theirs, 01:12:12.956 --> 01:12:15.596 and not even mine, not anyone's, to start choosing yourself. 01:12:15.816 --> 01:12:18.856 The woman sitting on the couch, phone in hand, wondering if she should text again. 01:12:19.336 --> 01:12:23.156 She can put the phone down. She can take a deep breath. She can whisper to herself, 01:12:23.356 --> 01:12:24.896 I am not responsible for his behavior. 01:12:25.216 --> 01:12:29.216 I am not the problem. I am allowed to choose peace. And then she can take one 01:12:29.216 --> 01:12:30.756 small step toward reclaiming her power. 01:12:30.916 --> 01:12:33.456 Maybe it's not sending that apologetic text. 01:12:33.716 --> 01:12:36.876 Maybe it's calling a therapist tomorrow. Maybe it's confiding in a trusted friend. 01:12:37.096 --> 01:12:38.696 Maybe it's starting to document the patterns. 01:12:39.056 --> 01:12:41.416 Maybe it's just sitting with the discomfort without trying to fix it. 01:12:41.596 --> 01:12:43.416 One small step, that's all you need to start. 01:12:43.696 --> 01:12:46.536 Because here is the beautiful truth. Every time you don't provide the attack 01:12:46.536 --> 01:12:47.996 surface, you're building yourself up. 01:12:48.236 --> 01:12:51.236 Every time you resist the urge to over-explain, you're reclaiming your voice. 01:12:51.416 --> 01:12:56.516 Every time you let their silence sit without chasing it, you're strengthening your foundation. 01:12:56.776 --> 01:13:00.096 Every time you choose yourself, you're writing a new story and you deserve a 01:13:00.096 --> 01:13:02.196 story where you're not just surviving, you're actually thriving. 01:13:02.376 --> 01:13:05.496 Where you're not just managing someone else's emotions, you're honoring your own. 01:13:05.716 --> 01:13:08.436 And where you're not just avoiding the next attack, you're building a 01:13:08.436 --> 01:13:11.276 life of peace you're so much stronger than you know you're 01:13:11.276 --> 01:13:14.156 wiser than you think you are worthy of so much more than being somebody's attack 01:13:14.156 --> 01:13:16.976 surface so take that first step and then take another 01:13:16.976 --> 01:13:21.676 and another until one day you look back and realize you're not just waking up 01:13:21.676 --> 01:13:27.296 to the narcissism you woke up to yourself and that is when life begins i believe 01:13:27.296 --> 01:13:30.196 in you i'm rooting for you i will be here walking alongside you on this journey 01:13:30.196 --> 01:13:33.576 send me your stories your thoughts your questions and until next time take care 01:13:33.576 --> 01:13:34.716 of yourself you're worth it 01:13:35.116 --> 01:13:37.756 Have a great week. We'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.