WEBVTT

00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.397
Hey, everybody, welcome to the virtual couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.

00:00:04.577 --> 00:00:08.937
And as a therapist, I've got tissues, two boxes flanking the couch that is right

00:00:08.937 --> 00:00:10.637
in front of me, but I'm sitting down.

00:00:10.777 --> 00:00:15.357
So why actually take five seconds to go get one of those when I could root around

00:00:15.357 --> 00:00:19.117
in my bag for five minutes trying to find what eventually turned out to be a

00:00:19.117 --> 00:00:21.037
paper towel to blow my nose?

00:00:21.177 --> 00:00:24.157
Did I already say I'm your host, Tony Overbay? I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

00:00:24.277 --> 00:00:28.117
I'm not your therapist, although to be fair, I actually am a lot of therapist

00:00:28.117 --> 00:00:30.117
therapists, So technically, I might be your therapist, therapist,

00:00:30.237 --> 00:00:35.277
but either way, everything I share here is for informational and maybe a little

00:00:35.277 --> 00:00:36.677
bit of entertainment purposes only.

00:00:36.897 --> 00:00:40.817
This is not a substitute for professional care or diagnosis or treatment.

00:00:40.817 --> 00:00:42.777
I am here to share, not to diagnose.

00:00:43.137 --> 00:00:46.577
So please find a good therapist because that is what matters most.

00:00:46.797 --> 00:00:50.397
That is going to be something that I think I'm going to say repeatedly.

00:00:50.457 --> 00:00:52.117
But today I want to start with a question.

00:00:52.577 --> 00:00:55.657
Would you rather be liked or would you rather be true to yourself?

00:00:57.057 --> 00:01:00.397
Now, if you answered immediately, I would rather be true to myself,

00:01:00.597 --> 00:01:03.517
what if being true to yourself could cost you something big,

00:01:03.657 --> 00:01:09.057
like your job, your marriage, your faith community, your financial security, your kids?

00:01:09.477 --> 00:01:13.197
Because I think we often tell ourselves, I'm sure I would do the right thing

00:01:13.197 --> 00:01:15.097
just because that's the right thing to do.

00:01:15.477 --> 00:01:19.937
But when we're actually in a moment, suddenly there are other factors in play

00:01:19.937 --> 00:01:21.217
that we maybe didn't anticipate.

00:01:21.217 --> 00:01:24.217
Belonging, financial security, the weight of family expectations,

00:01:24.517 --> 00:01:28.177
or even the dread of disappointing people that we respect, which we may not

00:01:28.177 --> 00:01:31.777
give enough credit for, but I do work with a lot of people pleasers,

00:01:31.837 --> 00:01:34.177
and I think I am a recovering people pleaser myself.

00:01:34.677 --> 00:01:38.517
So that's the heart of today's conversation. We're going to explore the difference

00:01:38.517 --> 00:01:43.537
between two of my favorite things, character and integrity, and how they overlap

00:01:43.537 --> 00:01:48.737
and how they differ and why it matters in some of life's most high-charged arenas.

00:01:48.737 --> 00:01:53.497
A couple of weeks ago, I introduced the concept of five high-charged areas that

00:01:53.497 --> 00:01:55.897
people bring into the couples therapist realm.

00:01:56.057 --> 00:01:59.217
We're talking about religion, marriage, parenting.

00:02:00.003 --> 00:02:04.323
Sex, and politics. And we're going to hit on at least four out of those five today.

00:02:04.663 --> 00:02:08.863
And we're going to take a look at what it means to move from being known for

00:02:08.863 --> 00:02:14.083
your character, which can be a great thing, to actually then living with integrity,

00:02:14.083 --> 00:02:18.083
even when the pressure's on and the cost is very real.

00:02:18.303 --> 00:02:22.043
And just a quick heads up before we get started, at the end of today's episode,

00:02:22.043 --> 00:02:26.463
I am going to guide you through a short meditation to help you connect with

00:02:26.463 --> 00:02:30.483
your values and build the kind of integrity that we'll be talking about today.

00:02:30.703 --> 00:02:34.823
And also share how you can get a one-page cheat sheet of this episode along

00:02:34.823 --> 00:02:38.463
with my values exercise, which is it's a really simple, but I think it's a powerful

00:02:38.463 --> 00:02:41.423
tool to help you start discovering who you truly are.

00:02:41.483 --> 00:02:44.643
Because if you really don't know what your values are, and again,

00:02:44.843 --> 00:02:47.303
values, and we'll probably talk about that later in this episode,

00:02:47.463 --> 00:02:50.003
are not a destination that you achieve.

00:02:50.243 --> 00:02:52.683
It isn't, I don't have a value of getting a million dollars.

00:02:52.763 --> 00:02:56.763
A value is more of a direction. So you can always be heading in a certain direction.

00:02:57.203 --> 00:03:00.923
And I'll make this brief. Come cruise with me and my friend, Julie DeJesus.

00:03:01.163 --> 00:03:05.123
I am not saying that the highlight of the cruise will be me eating my weight

00:03:05.123 --> 00:03:08.543
in soft serve, but I'm also not saying that that wouldn't be the highlight of the cruise.

00:03:08.683 --> 00:03:11.583
It's January 24th through the 29th, 2026.

00:03:12.283 --> 00:03:18.203
I'll be joining Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, in the ICU living cruise.

00:03:18.343 --> 00:03:22.083
And we're talking about five nights in the Western Caribbean aboard Royal Caribbean,

00:03:22.083 --> 00:03:24.443
or is it Royal Caribbean and the Western Caribbean?

00:03:24.723 --> 00:03:27.883
But we'll have creative workshops. We will have nightly group dinners and the

00:03:27.883 --> 00:03:30.163
kind of conversations that I think will make you feel alive.

00:03:30.423 --> 00:03:33.643
But we're gonna dive into topics like mental health and emotional resilience.

00:03:33.643 --> 00:03:37.603
I will be covering emotional immaturity and maybe some emotional maturity.

00:03:37.803 --> 00:03:42.683
We might even start talking a little bit about narcissistic traits and tendencies in relationships.

00:03:42.903 --> 00:03:47.223
But in between, you will have beaches and buffets, maybe a lava cake or two.

00:03:47.463 --> 00:03:51.783
And to parents, kids, sale free. So you can stop Googling cheap babysitter right now.

00:03:52.083 --> 00:03:56.023
Book early to get your special access to small group dining and events with Julie and me.

00:03:56.503 --> 00:04:01.423
And details are at juliedejesus.com slash cruise, or I'll have those in the show notes today.

00:04:01.723 --> 00:04:07.203
So let's get started then, shall we? Character is shaped by the moral qualities

00:04:07.203 --> 00:04:08.863
that we do show over time.

00:04:09.003 --> 00:04:13.303
And I think that some of today will sound like we're talking about the same thing.

00:04:13.443 --> 00:04:17.543
And I think that's why it is so important to really dig deep into what this

00:04:17.543 --> 00:04:21.463
difference between character and integrity. Character includes the traits that

00:04:21.463 --> 00:04:24.543
we're known for, dependability, kindness, ambition.

00:04:24.903 --> 00:04:28.903
But integrity is something subtler, but it is so much more powerful.

00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:34.520
Integrity is about the harmony between what you say you believe and then how

00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:37.040
you act, especially when nobody's watching.

00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:42.340
But I also think it's becoming more and more prevalent to see what your integrity

00:04:42.340 --> 00:04:44.380
is when everybody is watching.

00:04:44.820 --> 00:04:49.100
Because it's when your actions align with your values, even at a cost.

00:04:49.380 --> 00:04:52.400
So I think you can maybe see why I've already tried to set the table of if you

00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:55.320
aren't really sure what your values are or know really who you are,

00:04:55.540 --> 00:05:00.660
then it can be hard to operate from a place of integrity. and that is not meant with any shame.

00:05:01.140 --> 00:05:05.440
So here are some examples and per usual, they are all based on real situations,

00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:09.200
real people, but the details have been changed for the sake of confidentiality.

00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:13.520
So I want you to think about a daughter or it could be a son who decides mid-season

00:05:13.520 --> 00:05:18.320
that they do not want to play soccer anymore and they're playing for a competitive club soccer team.

00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:24.160
Now, a parent driven by character might insist that you don't quit.

00:05:24.340 --> 00:05:28.940
We finish what we start in this family to maintain the family's image of dependability.

00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:33.720
But a parent driven maybe more by integrity might recognize the courage it took

00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:38.540
for their daughter to be honest and say, hey, I'm proud of you for knowing yourself.

00:05:38.840 --> 00:05:42.720
Now, let's see if we can figure out a respectful way that you can step away from the team.

00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:47.260
That would be uncomfortable for the dad because now he risks the judgment from

00:05:47.260 --> 00:05:50.900
the other parents. And it can trigger, I think, projection too.

00:05:51.300 --> 00:05:55.880
Maybe he personally values teamwork and perseverance, and those mean a lot to

00:05:55.880 --> 00:05:59.740
him. so her choice feels like it's a reflection on him.

00:06:00.939 --> 00:06:04.039
Now, we'll talk more today about differentiation, but that would be the key

00:06:04.039 --> 00:06:09.479
here because he can hold his discomfort and still allow his daughter to define who she is.

00:06:09.719 --> 00:06:12.819
And honestly, what would be better for the team?

00:06:12.939 --> 00:06:15.879
A player who is disengaged and they are going to prove to everybody that they

00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.119
don't want to be there, but they're there because you don't quit.

00:06:19.299 --> 00:06:24.039
Or somebody that had the integrity to say, I realize now this isn't for me and

00:06:24.039 --> 00:06:27.459
I genuinely don't want to let you down by pretending that it is.

00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:33.139
And that's this nuance, this fine line or the real difference between character and integrity.

00:06:33.379 --> 00:06:37.339
Now, before I start getting emails saying, Tony, then are you telling us that

00:06:37.339 --> 00:06:40.679
kids can just quit anything? I absolutely hear you because I honestly,

00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.599
I have my own stories of being pushed not to quit when I was a kid.

00:06:44.799 --> 00:06:47.579
And sure enough, that perseverance became a strength for me.

00:06:47.719 --> 00:06:52.499
There are also areas where I genuinely resent the fact that I was not heard

00:06:52.499 --> 00:06:56.839
or understood. So I do, I do understand. And to me, that's just more proof of

00:06:56.839 --> 00:07:01.579
how messy this all is and how much more important it is to understand these concepts.

00:07:02.099 --> 00:07:06.319
Because at some point, you, the parent, the human, get to make the call.

00:07:06.619 --> 00:07:11.059
And that's why I just love the idea of a muse. Now, a muse isn't the final answer.

00:07:11.579 --> 00:07:15.639
A muse is inspiration. It sparks reflection. So that's all I'm doing here.

00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.779
I am sharing muses that I've gathered through my experience as a human,

00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:22.839
married to another human, almost 35 years, raising four other humans.

00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:26.999
I was going to say little humans, but one of them is much larger than I am because

00:07:26.999 --> 00:07:29.779
so much of our interaction with people is about asking, well,

00:07:29.859 --> 00:07:32.819
hey, what would you do or what do you think I should do? Or let me tell you what you should do.

00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.599
And in my humble opinion, that is the part that often misses the point because

00:07:37.599 --> 00:07:40.919
we are all here on this earth navigating life for the very first time.

00:07:42.026 --> 00:07:45.326
And I want to throw in the joke that I like saying that typically goes over

00:07:45.326 --> 00:07:49.966
to a chorus of crickets of or your second time, depending on your belief system.

00:07:50.546 --> 00:07:55.886
But if you really do take nothing else from this, I hope that you will hear that it's okay to be you.

00:07:56.286 --> 00:08:00.946
It's okay to not know. It's okay to doubt and to fear the unknown and to desperately

00:08:00.946 --> 00:08:05.046
want to know what the right answer is because we want certainty.

00:08:06.186 --> 00:08:09.106
Ultimately, everything does boil down to a me issue.

00:08:09.106 --> 00:08:13.266
And that's actually a really beautiful thing because it means the work of integrity

00:08:13.266 --> 00:08:15.766
is always right there in front of us,

00:08:16.606 --> 00:08:20.986
So I have some examples again more that are not just in the sports realm,

00:08:21.146 --> 00:08:24.306
but are based off of real examples Real situations.

00:08:24.506 --> 00:08:28.346
So picture an employee named marcus. He works in finance And marcus is known

00:08:28.346 --> 00:08:29.386
for his character traits.

00:08:29.526 --> 00:08:33.046
He's dependable. He's likable He's always the first to volunteer for late nights and weekends.

00:08:33.246 --> 00:08:36.726
That's our boy marcus Now, people describe Marcus as ambitious.

00:08:36.966 --> 00:08:41.206
Marcus is a team player. And people know that Marcus is going to rise up the corporate ladder.

00:08:41.346 --> 00:08:47.406
But one day, Marcus's boss says, hey, can you adjust one of these reports to

00:08:47.406 --> 00:08:49.766
make the numbers look just a little more favorable for investors?

00:08:49.986 --> 00:08:52.126
Because I don't really like the way that those are coming across.

00:08:52.886 --> 00:08:56.446
Now, in this particular situation, and it was a bit complicated,

00:08:56.666 --> 00:09:00.006
but it isn't necessarily illegal the way that he was going about doing it.

00:09:00.206 --> 00:09:01.346
But it was definitely shady.

00:09:01.906 --> 00:09:06.386
Now, if Marcus complies, here's the key. His character remains intact.

00:09:06.666 --> 00:09:10.526
He looks reliable. He keeps the boss happy. He's still climbing the corporate ladder.

00:09:10.726 --> 00:09:14.486
He's still the ambitious guy doing what is asked of him. Good old Marcus.

00:09:14.746 --> 00:09:15.766
I can always count on him.

00:09:16.586 --> 00:09:19.546
Here comes integrity. Integrity asks something different.

00:09:20.146 --> 00:09:24.166
Marcus knows this report will influence people's financial decisions.

00:09:24.466 --> 00:09:27.926
And if he's aligned with his values, and let's say he has a value of honesty

00:09:27.926 --> 00:09:31.766
and transparency, then he can't manipulate the data.

00:09:32.166 --> 00:09:36.266
Now, in this particular situation, he did speak up and he risked the fallout.

00:09:36.266 --> 00:09:38.826
And we talked about it in great detail.

00:09:39.126 --> 00:09:42.406
He realized that was most likely going to jeopardize a promotion.

00:09:42.566 --> 00:09:47.466
It cost him approval, but it did keep him aligned truly with who he is.

00:09:47.966 --> 00:09:52.346
Now, the difficult part there is that I wish I could tell you that now Marcus

00:09:52.346 --> 00:09:53.706
is the CEO of the company.

00:09:54.066 --> 00:09:58.466
Oh, Marcus did not get promoted for a long period of time. And then he eventually

00:09:58.466 --> 00:10:01.426
He left the company, but he left with his integrity intact.

00:10:02.766 --> 00:10:07.026
Another example, imagine a close friendship. Sarah is known as the kind friend,

00:10:07.306 --> 00:10:11.186
the one who always is encouraging, is always supportive, always says what people

00:10:11.186 --> 00:10:12.866
want to hear. That's her character.

00:10:13.768 --> 00:10:18.508
But then her best friend starts dating someone that Sarah can see is manipulative and controlling.

00:10:18.688 --> 00:10:22.748
And this was literally why she came in to work with me after listening to a

00:10:22.748 --> 00:10:26.408
bunch of podcasts around emotional immaturity, narcissistic traits and tendencies.

00:10:26.568 --> 00:10:31.128
She was so worried about her friend that she didn't know what to do. Now, Sarah has a choice.

00:10:31.468 --> 00:10:36.208
If she sticks with character, she'll smile, nod and wave, stay supportive because that's her role.

00:10:36.668 --> 00:10:41.548
You know, Sarah, she's always dependable. She's always so kind and she's not going to rock the boat.

00:10:42.468 --> 00:10:49.728
Now, integrity means that she risks tension by saying, hey, I care about you too much to stay quiet.

00:10:49.868 --> 00:10:54.728
Now, it is a me thing, my opinion, but something feels off here and I just need to really be honest.

00:10:55.188 --> 00:10:59.808
So, character does preserve comfort, but integrity invites conflict.

00:11:00.128 --> 00:11:05.068
But when it is done from truly a place of alignment with one's values,

00:11:05.308 --> 00:11:07.988
it really does come from a place of love.

00:11:08.588 --> 00:11:12.708
Now, there is no right or wrong answer here because I want to ask you,

00:11:12.868 --> 00:11:13.768
which friend would you rather have?

00:11:13.848 --> 00:11:16.608
The one who keeps the peace or the one who's honest when it counts?

00:11:16.748 --> 00:11:21.048
Because I would imagine there are plenty of us and I might consider myself this

00:11:21.048 --> 00:11:24.788
at times. I would hope that I'm moving away from this, but would rather have

00:11:24.788 --> 00:11:27.728
that friend that is going to say, you're awesome, they're great.

00:11:28.108 --> 00:11:33.868
Because am I in a position to take any kind of criticism, even if it could be for my benefit?

00:11:34.028 --> 00:11:36.908
And then let's do one more and then we're going to get into the deep end of the pool today.

00:11:37.728 --> 00:11:40.268
Think about somebody who is deeply involved in their faith community.

00:11:40.448 --> 00:11:44.248
They teach, they serve, they're the model member. That is their character.

00:11:44.668 --> 00:11:49.828
But then their child comes out as gay, and suddenly the community's vibe of,

00:11:49.928 --> 00:11:53.968
hey, all are welcome, it doesn't quite ring the same for this person.

00:11:54.108 --> 00:11:57.388
Now, if they stay quiet, they can maintain their character, they can maintain

00:11:57.388 --> 00:12:01.448
their position, they can maintain their role as a good, dependable church member

00:12:01.448 --> 00:12:04.288
willing to do anything for the church community.

00:12:04.288 --> 00:12:10.988
But if they really live with integrity and they speak up or even step away to

00:12:10.988 --> 00:12:13.588
honor their values of love or authenticity...

00:12:14.795 --> 00:12:18.235
Then that choice may cost them belonging in a community that has always felt

00:12:18.235 --> 00:12:22.535
like family, where they have got their validation or their rites of passage, their social capital.

00:12:23.095 --> 00:12:26.495
But integrity here means they don't sacrifice their child's dignity,

00:12:26.675 --> 00:12:30.935
or what they went on to say, their own soul for the sake of appearances,

00:12:30.935 --> 00:12:34.455
to make sure that everyone else still thought the same of them.

00:12:34.575 --> 00:12:37.535
As emotionally immature people, and I will maintain that we are all emotionally

00:12:37.535 --> 00:12:41.395
immature until we're not, until we go and interact with the world and learn

00:12:41.395 --> 00:12:46.155
more about ourselves, Many of us look outside of ourselves for validation.

00:12:46.515 --> 00:12:49.315
So what that looks like is we will tweak, we will accommodate,

00:12:49.315 --> 00:12:52.415
and we'll even hide parts of ourselves just to fit in.

00:12:52.955 --> 00:12:58.215
But the hope is that as we mature, as we begin to interact with the world and

00:12:58.215 --> 00:13:01.815
others, that we start to really figure out who we are.

00:13:01.955 --> 00:13:04.095
And we begin to act from our core values.

00:13:04.455 --> 00:13:09.455
And that's once we realize that we're most likely unaware of what we value.

00:13:10.335 --> 00:13:13.835
When we can recognize that our current set of values most likely comes from

00:13:13.835 --> 00:13:17.395
our parents, our community, our church, this is what we all believe.

00:13:17.535 --> 00:13:20.955
Or to be a good member of the family or society or the congregation,

00:13:21.215 --> 00:13:25.035
then you must believe X because, well, Y, that's what the other people believe.

00:13:25.155 --> 00:13:29.075
And that's where integrity and purpose start to take root, is in recognizing

00:13:29.075 --> 00:13:30.375
what you really do believe.

00:13:31.235 --> 00:13:36.455
Here's a key point. Do not get me wrong. You can remain and believe what your

00:13:36.455 --> 00:13:39.595
family, your community, or your church believe. that is absolutely okay.

00:13:39.815 --> 00:13:44.615
There is no part of me that is telling anyone what they should think or feel or believe.

00:13:45.775 --> 00:13:51.015
The maturation process, though, ideally is forged from your own personal journey,

00:13:51.055 --> 00:13:55.215
because ultimately you are the one that you're going to spend the most time with.

00:13:55.295 --> 00:13:58.875
So I promise that by understanding who you are, that can be an incredibly powerful

00:13:58.875 --> 00:14:03.395
way to live, especially when you actually like the version of you that's rattling

00:14:03.395 --> 00:14:04.695
around on the inside of your head.

00:14:05.895 --> 00:14:08.735
So today we're going to look at how that plays out across a

00:14:08.735 --> 00:14:11.755
lot of different arenas we're going to talk about big law big business

00:14:11.755 --> 00:14:14.435
religion and relationships and i want to

00:14:14.435 --> 00:14:17.235
start in the legal world now why because of an

00:14:17.235 --> 00:14:19.975
article i read a little while back that really it's stuck in

00:14:19.975 --> 00:14:22.775
my craw and since we're talking values one of

00:14:22.775 --> 00:14:25.795
mine is curiosity so i will

00:14:25.795 --> 00:14:28.735
be right back okay so i had to pause and look up the phrase stuck

00:14:28.735 --> 00:14:32.215
in my craw because i have used that before and

00:14:32.215 --> 00:14:34.815
i just thought what does that mean right after it left my mouth so it

00:14:34.815 --> 00:14:37.975
turns out in the 13th century your craw referred to

00:14:37.975 --> 00:14:40.735
your throat or neck so stuck in your craw literally meant something that

00:14:40.735 --> 00:14:44.435
was hard to swallow now over time it became a metaphor for something that is

00:14:44.435 --> 00:14:48.455
difficult to accept now for me with a family tendency toward basically like

00:14:48.455 --> 00:14:52.615
low-grade choking spells thank you genetics i am imagining now my family will

00:14:52.615 --> 00:14:56.275
hear me saying uh you gotta give me a minute i've got some pulled pork stuck

00:14:56.275 --> 00:14:59.595
in my craw but but i digress so let me uh.

00:15:00.310 --> 00:15:03.950
Let me build up the suspense. I had mentioned that there is this article that

00:15:03.950 --> 00:15:06.290
really stuck in the aforementioned craw.

00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:10.270
Before I even read the name of the article, I would love to challenge your confirmation bias.

00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:13.870
Because depending on one name in this headline, you may already feel pulled

00:15:13.870 --> 00:15:16.170
in a particular direction, positive or negative.

00:15:16.550 --> 00:15:21.390
I would implore you to trust me, my wonderful listeners, that this episode is not about politics.

00:15:21.810 --> 00:15:27.630
It's about learning who you are. And that can fall on either end or even in

00:15:27.630 --> 00:15:30.870
the middle of the spectrum of the political landscape. And today's journey,

00:15:31.090 --> 00:15:34.390
as hopefully you are understanding, is about integrity and character and what

00:15:34.390 --> 00:15:35.510
that looks like when it's tested.

00:15:35.930 --> 00:15:39.470
So the article I'm talking about, which I only realized after looking back,

00:15:39.630 --> 00:15:40.690
was from three months ago.

00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:43.210
And I would have told you it was just a couple of weeks ago,

00:15:43.350 --> 00:15:44.510
but I've thought about it so much.

00:15:44.610 --> 00:15:48.910
It's titled, The Law Firms That Appeased Trump and Angered Their Clients.

00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:54.270
It's by Aaron Mulvaney, Emily Glazer, and Ryan Barber, and Josh Dossie.

00:15:54.270 --> 00:15:56.950
This article has stuck with me because think if I'm being honest,

00:15:56.990 --> 00:16:01.610
I don't know exactly how I would have handled the situation that those law firms faced.

00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:06.270
And I'm noticing that does frustrate me a little bit, but I want to model the

00:16:06.270 --> 00:16:11.870
same kind of honest introspection and self-confrontation that I encourage with my own clients.

00:16:11.950 --> 00:16:16.290
I am not looking for your validation or your condemnation, but I do welcome

00:16:16.290 --> 00:16:19.310
the thoughts and feelings that this may stir as we go along.

00:16:19.630 --> 00:16:22.430
And then quick aside here, I promise this is relevant.

00:16:22.770 --> 00:16:26.890
One of my clients once had me take this Dungeons and Dragons personality test,

00:16:26.930 --> 00:16:32.370
and apparently if we were in the middle of some epic battle with orcs and ogres

00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:35.390
and werewolves and all the other terrifying mythical creatures charging the front lines,

00:16:36.148 --> 00:16:41.428
My role would be to hang back, not fighting, not swinging an axe or a bow staff.

00:16:42.248 --> 00:16:45.428
No, according to this test, I was strolling after the dust had settled and say

00:16:45.428 --> 00:16:49.428
to the battered warriors, so how are we feeling about that skirmish?

00:16:49.688 --> 00:16:52.048
Which I thought was a really good read.

00:16:52.428 --> 00:16:55.388
Now, the client that asked me to take this was nearly enraged.

00:16:55.528 --> 00:16:58.128
He was saying, how can you not be out there on the front lines with us?

00:16:58.208 --> 00:17:02.468
To which I replied, A, this is not real. And two, I took that personality test

00:17:02.468 --> 00:17:06.388
as accurately as a human being can possibly take a D&D-themed personality test.

00:17:06.588 --> 00:17:09.308
No doubt that that thing had been created by a very seasoned,

00:17:09.428 --> 00:17:10.528
very serious dungeon master.

00:17:10.768 --> 00:17:13.668
And apparently my character sheet does not come with a sword.

00:17:13.728 --> 00:17:16.788
It comes with a clipboard and it didn't say a box of tissues.

00:17:17.028 --> 00:17:18.408
And actually it would be more like an iPad.

00:17:18.848 --> 00:17:22.868
But here's the thing though. This test, even if I thought it was kind of silly,

00:17:23.088 --> 00:17:25.068
actually ties right back to what we're talking about.

00:17:25.648 --> 00:17:28.768
In that world, my character might be seen as weak.

00:17:28.868 --> 00:17:32.608
He's not a fighter. He doesn't belong on the front lines, but my integrity would

00:17:32.608 --> 00:17:37.208
be showing up exactly who I am, doing what I do best, hopefully helping people

00:17:37.208 --> 00:17:38.988
process and heal and move forward.

00:17:39.328 --> 00:17:43.788
Even in fantasy land, it's the same question. Do I twist myself to fit the role

00:17:43.788 --> 00:17:47.628
that other people expect or do I align with who I really am?

00:17:48.068 --> 00:17:51.128
Let's use this article as our first muse.

00:17:51.388 --> 00:17:55.208
Again, not about politics. It's more about integrity because the question isn't

00:17:55.208 --> 00:17:56.948
really what did these firms do?

00:17:57.448 --> 00:18:01.568
It's what would I have done or what would you have done if you were in their shoes?

00:18:01.828 --> 00:18:05.508
And maybe more importantly, what does that say about my own values?

00:18:05.748 --> 00:18:11.548
Or even does this help me better define or understand my values because it's causing me to think?

00:18:11.908 --> 00:18:16.608
And the whole point here is not guilt or shame. You're not doing something bad

00:18:16.608 --> 00:18:17.968
and you're certainly not bad.

00:18:18.188 --> 00:18:22.708
This is about giving yourself permission to be curious about who you are and how you operate.

00:18:23.168 --> 00:18:26.068
Now, here's I think what a lot of people will do. They'll say,

00:18:26.308 --> 00:18:28.208
well, I understand. I would never do that.

00:18:28.548 --> 00:18:32.108
What we might actually be doing is soothing our own discomfort.

00:18:32.648 --> 00:18:35.328
Because the truth is, if you've never been in a particular situation,

00:18:35.328 --> 00:18:37.968
you do not know exactly how you respond. None of us do.

00:18:38.388 --> 00:18:43.748
You can prepare and visualize and meditate and manifest and set intentions about

00:18:43.748 --> 00:18:44.988
the kind of person that you want to be.

00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:50.720
And that work absolutely matters. But I think honesty with yourself also matters.

00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:55.040
And part of honesty is admitting, okay, honestly, I don't know how I would act

00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:57.760
until I'm there. Now, I believe I would act a certain way.

00:18:58.020 --> 00:19:00.480
It's not a flaw. That's part of being human.

00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.420
And if I can't know how I'd act in every situation, then how could I possibly

00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.080
decide how somebody else should have acted in theirs?

00:19:09.280 --> 00:19:11.480
I don't live in their body. I don't carry their history.

00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:16.900
And they don't carry mine. And that's why integrity is so personal and it's so hard.

00:19:17.060 --> 00:19:21.920
It's so difficult because people have no idea what someone else is going through

00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:22.900
or what they bring to the table.

00:19:23.560 --> 00:19:28.340
And often it's because neither do you or me until we're in that situation.

00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.780
So with that framework in mind, let me walk you through a few moments from this

00:19:31.780 --> 00:19:35.580
article that really hit me, and I'll share why I think that they struck such a chord.

00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:39.720
One of the earliest firms targeted by these executive orders was called Paul

00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.420
Weiss, and apparently they're one of the biggest and most prestigious firms in the country.

00:19:43.580 --> 00:19:48.100
We were talking about fees and the billions, and I think it was attorneys over a thousand.

00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:52.460
Now, instead of suing, they struck a deal with the White House.

00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:55.900
And the fallout, and this is all according to this article, the general counsel

00:19:55.900 --> 00:19:59.960
of a major financial company, said that when she heard Paul Weiss had made the

00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:01.820
deal, she said she felt physically ill.

00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:05.460
Others said that they had reassured the firm that they would stand by them only

00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:09.660
to feel blindsided when the firm caved. Some companies even pulled their business overnight.

00:20:10.100 --> 00:20:12.620
Pause for a second. Imagine being in that firm's leadership.

00:20:13.040 --> 00:20:17.620
Do you take the pragmatic route to protect your partners and keep these contracts

00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:23.320
alive, or do you hold the line and risk potential implosion in an attack by a federal government?

00:20:23.740 --> 00:20:26.820
And imagine being a young associate at that firm who had spent their entire,

00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.160
I'll say, 20s or 30s as a young associate at that firm vying for this corner

00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.740
office to become a partner, then what does that do all of a sudden to your sense

00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:38.580
of self or your sense of trust and belonging?

00:20:39.520 --> 00:20:44.040
Now, back to the article, on the other side, you had firms like Jenner and Block.

00:20:44.100 --> 00:20:48.900
They fought back in court, even though it meant anxious clients and the risk of losing business.

00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.800
On their website, they posted that giving in would mean compromising our ability

00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:57.460
to zealously advocate for all of our clients, and then capitulating to unconstitutional

00:20:57.460 --> 00:20:59.780
government coercion, which is simply not in our DNA.

00:21:00.923 --> 00:21:07.603
And that phrase alone, not in our DNA, that feels like the language of integrity.

00:21:07.983 --> 00:21:11.763
That is a firm saying, we know who we are, and we're not going to betray that

00:21:11.763 --> 00:21:13.103
no matter what it costs us.

00:21:13.583 --> 00:21:17.443
And before I go on in the article, I think that's one of these fascinating things.

00:21:17.563 --> 00:21:21.123
And I guess I'll say it's a plug for my men's emotional architects group.

00:21:21.183 --> 00:21:22.823
So reach out if you're interested.

00:21:23.043 --> 00:21:26.083
But the more that one can figure out who they are,

00:21:26.203 --> 00:21:29.963
and then they can stand confident in who they are,

00:21:29.963 --> 00:21:32.863
then they may not find themselves being as

00:21:32.863 --> 00:21:35.603
much of a people pleaser as they've been in the past because they're

00:21:35.603 --> 00:21:38.823
not just trying to give up to go along or

00:21:38.823 --> 00:21:41.723
to get out of that particular moment that they are starting

00:21:41.723 --> 00:21:44.983
to become more emotionally consistent emotionally safe verbally

00:21:44.983 --> 00:21:51.483
safe verbally consistent and they start to live by this this integrity and you

00:21:51.483 --> 00:21:54.763
can trust that when they say they will do something they will do it or they

00:21:54.763 --> 00:21:59.483
will be very open about reasons why they can't And so even though it might be

00:21:59.483 --> 00:22:03.463
upsetting because you maybe liked the version of them at one point that would say,

00:22:03.643 --> 00:22:06.243
hey, I'll take care of it, whatever it is that felt better in the moment.

00:22:06.403 --> 00:22:09.303
But then they consistently did not take care of it, whatever it was.

00:22:09.443 --> 00:22:12.123
And over time, then you realize I really can't count on this person.

00:22:12.443 --> 00:22:16.183
And so I think that's so interesting in this article when you put that in the

00:22:16.183 --> 00:22:20.583
context of companies that had hired these law firms. And I will say that I found

00:22:20.583 --> 00:22:26.043
that some of the billable hours or the hourly rates were anywhere from $1,000 to $3,000 an hour.

00:22:26.263 --> 00:22:29.763
So if you are paying that kind of money and you want this firm to really be

00:22:29.763 --> 00:22:33.903
there and have your back, I think that that's what this language was saying,

00:22:34.003 --> 00:22:35.423
that this phrase is not in our DNA.

00:22:35.823 --> 00:22:40.403
That they're saying that how could our clients trust us if then we go against

00:22:40.403 --> 00:22:44.003
our core values and don't operate from a place of integrity?

00:22:45.259 --> 00:22:48.439
So back to the article, the ripple effect they said was fascinating because

00:22:48.439 --> 00:22:52.039
some big corporations like Oracle, Morgan Stanley, even Microsoft for a time

00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.039
started moving work away from the firms that signed deals and toward the ones

00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:57.119
that resisted. Now, why?

00:22:57.439 --> 00:23:01.339
And here it is, because if a firm wouldn't even stand up for itself,

00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.179
how could a client trust it to stand up for them in the courtroom?

00:23:05.219 --> 00:23:08.899
And that's where I think if you see that someone in a relationship won't stand

00:23:08.899 --> 00:23:12.579
up for themselves, how can you trust that they will have your back?

00:23:12.579 --> 00:23:16.539
I often say when I'm talking about helping men in particular stay grounded,

00:23:16.939 --> 00:23:18.599
stay less emotionally reactive,

00:23:19.159 --> 00:23:23.039
learning how to respond actually instead of react, that when you look at it

00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.119
that way, if someone can rattle me with just their words,

00:23:26.639 --> 00:23:29.679
then heaven forbid if the saber-toothed tiger comes walking through the living

00:23:29.679 --> 00:23:34.579
room, then the person that I am, I want to say, is trusting me to feel safe

00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:38.799
is definitely not going to feel safe. One general counsel put it pretty bluntly.

00:23:38.919 --> 00:23:42.079
They said, if you don't have a hard line, you don't have any line at all.

00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:46.379
And then inside these firms that made deals, the fallout was pretty intense.

00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:51.419
At places like a firm called Skadden, Latham, and Kirkland, younger associates were resigning.

00:23:51.639 --> 00:23:56.079
One associate wrote in their departure email that they refused to sleepwalk

00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:57.219
toward authoritarianism.

00:23:57.659 --> 00:24:01.639
Partners left too. Even managing partners reportedly grew emotional as they

00:24:01.639 --> 00:24:04.859
explained to their colleagues why they felt they had no choice but to settle.

00:24:05.719 --> 00:24:08.919
So think about that. leaders breaking down in front of their teams because they

00:24:08.919 --> 00:24:10.979
knew that the decision wasn't just business.

00:24:11.159 --> 00:24:15.399
It was somewhat existential because their integrity was on the line.

00:24:16.179 --> 00:24:20.859
But there were also no doubt situations where people were leveraged financially

00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:25.839
and they had perhaps lived beyond their means and were counting on the next

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:31.139
promotion or the next big bonus check to help them get out of the financial place that they were in.

00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:35.339
And so then that's where I know every Every person has to make this decision on their own.

00:24:36.338 --> 00:24:39.898
So why am I sharing all this? Because while these stories are,

00:24:40.058 --> 00:24:42.458
we're talking about billion dollar firms and executive orders,

00:24:42.678 --> 00:24:46.238
the underlying question I think is one that we will all face if we haven't already.

00:24:46.758 --> 00:24:52.818
When the pressure is on, do I choose approval or do I choose alignment? Do I choose integrity?

00:24:53.098 --> 00:24:57.458
And if you're tempted to say, well, I would always choose integrity, I would just say pause.

00:24:57.838 --> 00:25:00.238
Because in real life, these decisions aren't abstract.

00:25:00.758 --> 00:25:06.958
They come with very real costs, relationships, belonging, livelihood, financial safety.

00:25:07.278 --> 00:25:11.718
And that's exactly why I want to take this conversation into other arenas.

00:25:11.878 --> 00:25:16.358
We'll talk about tech, healthcare, faith, friendships, where the same character

00:25:16.358 --> 00:25:20.618
versus integrity dilemma shows up in ways that I think might hit much closer to home.

00:25:21.258 --> 00:25:24.198
Now, I say that, and I'm going to give you two more real examples,

00:25:24.218 --> 00:25:27.438
and these both happen to be attorneys, but these are based off of clients that

00:25:27.438 --> 00:25:29.038
I had worked with. So you have two attorneys.

00:25:29.298 --> 00:25:34.298
They're different people, similar roles, but working in two different law firms. First, meet Jordan.

00:25:34.758 --> 00:25:38.878
Jordan's at a prestigious law firm that just signed a very lucrative deal with

00:25:38.878 --> 00:25:42.138
a high profile client, maybe someone in the world of politics,

00:25:42.718 --> 00:25:46.878
despite the client's track record of skirting ethical boundaries.

00:25:47.198 --> 00:25:51.178
So now Jordan has character. Jordan is known for being dependable,

00:25:51.478 --> 00:25:54.458
always on time, mentoring junior associates, keeping clients happy.

00:25:54.698 --> 00:25:59.118
So around the office, Jordan is a very well-liked team player.

00:25:59.658 --> 00:26:02.338
But when the firm takes on this controversial client.

00:26:03.174 --> 00:26:08.114
Jordan keeps quiet. In fact, Jordan even helps draft some of the legal strategy

00:26:08.114 --> 00:26:12.514
and just starts reasoning to me and those around Jordan.

00:26:13.034 --> 00:26:16.354
It's really not my job to question leadership because I am here to do good work.

00:26:16.454 --> 00:26:18.694
This is what I am hired to do. And what am I supposed to do?

00:26:18.774 --> 00:26:20.354
These are my marching orders.

00:26:20.834 --> 00:26:24.634
Now, the pluses, Jordan is seen as loyal. They move up the ladder,

00:26:24.854 --> 00:26:27.034
they get bonuses, they maintain a smooth career.

00:26:27.614 --> 00:26:30.954
The minuses, every time they file another motion for that client,

00:26:31.334 --> 00:26:33.514
there's just something happening inside.

00:26:33.814 --> 00:26:39.034
There's this quiet dissonance. They know that their work is enabling harm and

00:26:39.034 --> 00:26:43.054
they start avoiding conversations that might bring that discomfort to the surface.

00:26:43.174 --> 00:26:45.254
When people say, hey, what do you do for a living?

00:26:45.394 --> 00:26:48.234
Jordan used to love saying, I'm a corporate attorney and I work with these high

00:26:48.234 --> 00:26:50.914
profile clients. And let me tell you about some of the cases I'm working on.

00:26:51.194 --> 00:26:56.194
But Jordan started noticing that they would just not really speak up about what

00:26:56.194 --> 00:27:00.134
they did, even though they liked the idea that they were an attorney,

00:27:00.294 --> 00:27:04.474
but they were really not enjoying the feeling that they had with the work they did.

00:27:05.294 --> 00:27:10.694
Now meet Alexis. Alexis works at a rival firm, also very highly respected,

00:27:10.914 --> 00:27:12.794
and they face a similar situation.

00:27:13.034 --> 00:27:18.794
Here is a potential client with questionable ethics, but they offer the firm a huge retainer.

00:27:19.174 --> 00:27:23.294
Alexis' firm decides to pass, citing their commitment to pro bono cases and

00:27:23.294 --> 00:27:26.714
their existing clients that are in conflict with this new prospect.

00:27:27.514 --> 00:27:31.454
And Alexis backs the decision publicly, even volunteers to help defend a nonprofit

00:27:31.454 --> 00:27:34.434
that is actually being sued by that same controversial client.

00:27:34.554 --> 00:27:37.274
Now, the pluses, Alexis sleeps well at night.

00:27:37.494 --> 00:27:41.634
Their professional reputation deepens not just for skill, but for principle.

00:27:42.094 --> 00:27:46.294
Their network expands to include other attorneys and organizations who value

00:27:46.294 --> 00:27:47.094
them for their integrity.

00:27:47.234 --> 00:27:50.874
Now, the minuses, they lose out on billable hours from that big client.

00:27:50.874 --> 00:27:55.314
And the partner sometimes passed them over for more high-profile cases saying

00:27:55.314 --> 00:27:57.174
that Alexis is a little too idealistic.

00:27:58.334 --> 00:28:02.594
Two attorneys, both respected. One's playing the long game for their career,

00:28:02.794 --> 00:28:07.434
and the other is playing the long game for their conscience. Both have character.

00:28:08.334 --> 00:28:15.354
They are showing up consistently as they are, but only one is fully anchored in integrity.

00:28:16.234 --> 00:28:20.234
So what's pretty fascinating is that both Jordan and Alexis would describe themselves

00:28:20.234 --> 00:28:23.094
as good people. And I will attest to the fact that they are.

00:28:24.094 --> 00:28:27.214
But their decision-making comes from two very different places.

00:28:28.102 --> 00:28:32.362
Jordan's choice is rooted in external validation, approval from partners at

00:28:32.362 --> 00:28:37.462
the firm, approval and validation from keeping the peace, avoiding rocking the boat.

00:28:37.602 --> 00:28:41.922
It's safer, but it leans heavily on the need to be seen in a certain light by others.

00:28:42.502 --> 00:28:47.022
It was no surprise, as we dug into Jordan's past, that Jordan wasn't really

00:28:47.022 --> 00:28:49.242
asked a lot of questions growing up.

00:28:49.522 --> 00:28:52.142
They were to be seen and not heard.

00:28:53.082 --> 00:28:56.922
Jordan didn't really have a whole lot of opinions growing up because Jordan

00:28:56.922 --> 00:29:00.882
wasn't asked for their opinion very often, if ever.

00:29:01.442 --> 00:29:05.382
So Jordan thought that everything they were doing was pretty normal.

00:29:05.982 --> 00:29:08.962
And they thought it was pretty fascinating that I really don't have a lot of

00:29:08.962 --> 00:29:10.842
opinions, but it's probably normal.

00:29:11.182 --> 00:29:15.562
But had Jordan's parents been curious with Jordan when they were young,

00:29:15.782 --> 00:29:19.502
then Jordan would have felt like they were allowed to have opinions.

00:29:19.502 --> 00:29:24.202
There would have been curiosity from a primary caregiver who they are seeking

00:29:24.202 --> 00:29:25.622
connection and safety with.

00:29:26.142 --> 00:29:29.662
So that would have led to Jordan feeling safe to express their opinion,

00:29:29.662 --> 00:29:34.622
which would have most likely led to them being a little more firm in their convictions.

00:29:34.982 --> 00:29:40.002
And I'm not saying one is right or wrong. Right now, we're just saying this is, this is what it is.

00:29:40.242 --> 00:29:43.942
Now, Alexis's choice is rooted in internal validation, internal,

00:29:44.322 --> 00:29:48.022
not external validation, because internal is about alignment with personal values,

00:29:48.402 --> 00:29:50.882
even at the cost of opportunity or approval.

00:29:51.842 --> 00:29:55.322
Alexis is willing to live with the short-term discomfort because they believe

00:29:55.322 --> 00:29:58.402
in the long-term game of integrity for their work.

00:29:58.822 --> 00:30:02.362
And this is where emotional maturity comes into play. When we are emotionally

00:30:02.362 --> 00:30:07.002
immature, which I maintain that we all start from this place of emotional immaturity,

00:30:07.142 --> 00:30:08.222
we don't know what we don't know.

00:30:08.882 --> 00:30:13.282
When we're emotionally immature, our identity is, quite frankly, a little fragile.

00:30:13.602 --> 00:30:17.122
So we outsource our self-worth to other people's reactions.

00:30:17.422 --> 00:30:22.142
We are trying to read the room and try to figure out what do I need to do or say to,

00:30:22.737 --> 00:30:26.737
these people to like me, and I don't want them to think that I'm bad.

00:30:27.577 --> 00:30:32.057
But as we grow, often through the process of figuring out, clarifying our values,

00:30:32.297 --> 00:30:36.397
setting value-based goals, we start to anchor our decisions internally.

00:30:37.237 --> 00:30:42.017
And there's our bridge to today's conversation, because integrity isn't just

00:30:42.017 --> 00:30:46.277
about what you believe, it's about what you do when your beliefs are tested.

00:30:46.457 --> 00:30:50.417
You may be a very good person and you have some deep, deep core beliefs,

00:30:50.417 --> 00:30:53.337
But when tested, do you withdraw?

00:30:53.657 --> 00:30:58.277
Do you play small? Do you tell yourself the stories to get along is the best

00:30:58.277 --> 00:30:59.797
thing right now in the long run?

00:31:00.517 --> 00:31:03.517
Even if over time, it just doesn't start to feel right.

00:31:04.197 --> 00:31:07.137
It's about what you do when your beliefs are tested.

00:31:07.337 --> 00:31:10.237
And to get there, we need to understand the difference between character and

00:31:10.237 --> 00:31:13.777
integrity and how emotional maturity transforms both.

00:31:14.257 --> 00:31:18.437
I am a huge acceptance and commitment therapy fan. And in ACT,

00:31:18.577 --> 00:31:21.637
there's a core distinction between values and goals.

00:31:21.937 --> 00:31:24.537
Goals are the things that you can check off a list. Win a case,

00:31:24.737 --> 00:31:30.077
hit billable hours, become a millionaire, get promoted, get the six-pack abs, get the cool car.

00:31:30.757 --> 00:31:35.057
Values are the ongoing directions that you move toward, like curiosity,

00:31:35.457 --> 00:31:38.777
authenticity, justice, compassion, fairness.

00:31:39.777 --> 00:31:45.637
Jordan's decisions might align with short-term goals. Keeping their job secure? Check.

00:31:46.277 --> 00:31:50.837
Earning partner approval? Check. But they're drifting away from their deeper values.

00:31:51.297 --> 00:31:56.117
It was very clear that Jordan did not know what their values were, which also is normal.

00:31:56.617 --> 00:32:00.737
And even when you start to try to figure out your values, there's a period of

00:32:00.737 --> 00:32:05.517
time where most likely you're thinking, well, I know I should value certain things.

00:32:05.657 --> 00:32:09.737
Nobody likes to be should on because those values we most likely picked up from

00:32:09.737 --> 00:32:14.277
our parents or from our faith community, or neighborhood or friends. And so you start,

00:32:14.878 --> 00:32:19.458
And with these basically external values, people are handing you their values

00:32:19.458 --> 00:32:22.778
and saying, I think this is important, which is something we're going to cover

00:32:22.778 --> 00:32:26.238
in a podcast episode in another week or two about projection,

00:32:26.458 --> 00:32:30.418
about the mirror, that if I can project my values onto you and get you to buy

00:32:30.418 --> 00:32:32.738
into my values, then they must be right.

00:32:32.878 --> 00:32:37.438
So then I'm okay to have my own values versus it's okay for me to have my values.

00:32:37.618 --> 00:32:38.578
There's a period right there.

00:32:39.698 --> 00:32:42.598
So alexis's decisions though on the other hand may cost them

00:32:42.598 --> 00:32:45.698
in immediate goals but they keep them moving toward those

00:32:45.698 --> 00:32:49.258
core values in the grand scheme of things in

00:32:49.258 --> 00:32:52.618
the long term living a life of purpose and values is

00:32:52.618 --> 00:32:56.718
far more satisfying than continually trying to figure out a way to get people

00:32:56.718 --> 00:33:01.298
to like you because you are handing your power your sense of self in the hands

00:33:01.298 --> 00:33:05.178
of others on a pretty regular basis and then you are at the whim of their mood

00:33:05.178 --> 00:33:10.318
so this is committed action It's doing what matters most, even in the presence of discomfort.

00:33:10.478 --> 00:33:14.538
You know, so for Alexis, that discomfort might be fewer billable hours or whispers

00:33:14.538 --> 00:33:15.838
about being too idealistic.

00:33:16.038 --> 00:33:21.038
For Jordan, it's the quiet inner dissonance that grows over time when their values are sidelined.

00:33:21.338 --> 00:33:25.678
And let's throw another theory that I've only recently learned about into the

00:33:25.678 --> 00:33:29.058
mix. It's called self-determination theory or SDT.

00:33:29.438 --> 00:33:33.658
It was developed by psychologists Edward, I think it's Decky or Desi and Richard

00:33:33.658 --> 00:33:37.918
Ryan. And at its heart, it's about what truly drives human motivation and what

00:33:37.918 --> 00:33:39.278
makes that motivation sustainable.

00:33:39.718 --> 00:33:43.818
So according to SDT, we all have three basic psychological needs that fuel our

00:33:43.818 --> 00:33:48.938
sense of purpose and our well-being, autonomy, competence, and relatedness.

00:33:49.278 --> 00:33:51.778
So when these needs are met, we tend to feel more energized.

00:33:52.298 --> 00:33:55.758
More authentic, and more capable of living in alignment with our values.

00:33:56.258 --> 00:34:00.098
When these things aren't met, we start to feel stuck or disengaged.

00:34:00.238 --> 00:34:03.018
Something's wrong with us internally. We start to get resentful.

00:34:03.518 --> 00:34:07.558
So you can think of autonomy as having a sense of choice over your actions.

00:34:07.838 --> 00:34:11.738
Think of somebody who chooses cases or clients based on their personal values

00:34:11.738 --> 00:34:15.618
rather than fear of what their partners will think. They're not rebelling against authority.

00:34:15.818 --> 00:34:18.478
They're steering their own ship, even in choppy waters.

00:34:18.698 --> 00:34:23.718
It goes back to every opportunity for them is a chance for them to self-confront, to look inside and grow.

00:34:24.240 --> 00:34:28.800
Even if that might cost them their job, that's what can be so difficult because

00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:32.200
I understand that there can be some pretty tough times where you are financially

00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:37.160
dependent upon a job at this particular time, and it can be scary to then say,

00:34:37.340 --> 00:34:38.580
I am going to live by my values.

00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:43.400
Competence, then, is about feeling effective, feeling capable in what you do.

00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:47.080
Think of somebody who takes on a challenging pro bono case that they believe

00:34:47.080 --> 00:34:49.940
in, not because it's easy, but because they know it's going to stretch their

00:34:49.940 --> 00:34:54.160
skills, it's going to deepen their expertise. and each small win then builds

00:34:54.160 --> 00:34:56.160
confidence that they can handle bigger challenges ahead.

00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:00.380
And you can start to make sense of the fact that if you are beginning to find

00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:05.500
your sense of self purpose values, that things are not as scary.

00:35:05.660 --> 00:35:09.600
They still may be scary, but you are starting to lean into the discomfort,

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:10.680
brace for the discomfort.

00:35:11.220 --> 00:35:14.460
Know that I am going to learn something about myself, even if the uncomfortable

00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:18.200
thing is I'm doing something I don't know how to do. I might even have to say

00:35:18.200 --> 00:35:19.160
things like, I don't know.

00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:25.140
And then relatedness, this third concept is feeling connected to others in a way that's genuine.

00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:29.160
Because I promise you, when you are starting to figure out who you are and developing

00:35:29.160 --> 00:35:35.220
that sense of self, then you will start to find yourself around more like-minded

00:35:35.220 --> 00:35:38.820
people in reciprocal relationships because you no longer are trying to figure

00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:40.320
out, how do I get this person to like me?

00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:43.660
Because you really do have to start from a place of, I like myself.

00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:48.080
So if somebody is trying to get me to do something I don't want to do, I'm better than that.

00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:50.560
That isn't something I'm interested in. And I don't even really have to try

00:35:50.560 --> 00:35:51.800
to defend myself. Just no thanks.

00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.320
You can think of somebody who works late into the night with a team on a cause

00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.540
they care about, not because they have to, but because they feel a part of something

00:35:59.540 --> 00:36:00.300
bigger than themselves.

00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:03.900
And that connection is what fuels them in a way that a paycheck never could.

00:36:04.040 --> 00:36:08.620
A paycheck is nice and necessary, but it just sounds so cliche.

00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:12.280
And the 10 years I spent in the computer software industry, I would have thought

00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.540
this stuff was so much woo-woo, maybe even three woos.

00:36:16.490 --> 00:36:20.730
But now over the last 20 plus years where I found something that I just love

00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:24.730
and I'm passionate about, it turns out that it is work and there are times where

00:36:24.730 --> 00:36:26.070
you don't like it and it can be frustrating.

00:36:26.230 --> 00:36:28.910
But overall, you can't wait to get up and go to work the next day.

00:36:29.230 --> 00:36:32.050
According to SDT, when all three of these needs are supported,

00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:35.330
people tend to act from a place of intrinsic motivation. They are driven by

00:36:35.330 --> 00:36:36.390
what matters most to them.

00:36:36.530 --> 00:36:39.790
It's this internal thing rather than chasing approval and avoiding disapproval

00:36:39.790 --> 00:36:42.070
or collecting external rewards and validations.

00:36:42.070 --> 00:36:46.610
In other words, self-determination theory, that's a good way to explain why

00:36:46.610 --> 00:36:50.510
Alexis, in this earlier example, can choose integrity even when it costs them

00:36:50.510 --> 00:36:55.370
and why Jordan might struggle when their psychological needs are ever so quietly compromised.

00:36:56.250 --> 00:37:01.350
So autonomy, feeling like you have choice and control over your actions.

00:37:01.930 --> 00:37:07.950
It's holding on to yourself even in the pressure when others want you to fold

00:37:07.950 --> 00:37:10.450
into whatever they want you to do or who they need you to be.

00:37:11.390 --> 00:37:16.610
Competence, you're feeling effective in your work. You are doing things and you like to do them.

00:37:17.070 --> 00:37:19.830
And most likely, therefore, you are becoming very competent in them,

00:37:19.970 --> 00:37:24.430
which gives you a real sense of internal validation and motivation.

00:37:25.030 --> 00:37:30.010
And then this relatedness. If I'm feeling connected with the things I like to

00:37:30.010 --> 00:37:35.690
do and I'm feeling competent about those things, then most likely I'm going to find relatedness.

00:37:35.790 --> 00:37:39.210
I'm going to feel connected to those who I am interacting with because we're

00:37:39.210 --> 00:37:41.690
most likely having some good shared experiences.

00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:46.070
So when Jordan acts mostly for external rewards, partner praise,

00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:48.590
avoiding conflict, they're giving up some autonomy.

00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:52.830
They're letting others' expectations drive their choices. They're continually

00:37:52.830 --> 00:37:55.530
finding themselves going like, oh, what is this person going to think?

00:37:55.690 --> 00:37:58.670
Or let me ask this person, what would you do? Because that way,

00:37:58.810 --> 00:38:02.130
if it doesn't go well, then I can say, well, they told me.

00:38:02.250 --> 00:38:04.870
And if it does go well, then maybe they'll tell me that I'm good.

00:38:05.450 --> 00:38:09.330
Over time, this is the kind of thing that leads to burnout, almost like a moral

00:38:09.330 --> 00:38:15.250
injury because you're starting to compromise your own integrity or characters or sense of self.

00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:19.610
Alexis, though, is acting from intrinsic or internal motivation choices that

00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:20.730
reflect personal values.

00:38:21.290 --> 00:38:24.410
Research shows that intrinsic motivation fosters resilience,

00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:28.370
satisfaction in life, job, career, a stronger sense of self.

00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:33.710
So in other words, integrity and emotional maturity aren't just moral virtues.

00:38:33.710 --> 00:38:39.390
They are these psychological nutrients and they help you thrive, not just survive.

00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:41.650
Let me give you a real world example.

00:38:42.050 --> 00:38:45.030
And actually, before I do that, I neglected to say up front,

00:38:45.190 --> 00:38:49.410
follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch and TikTok at virtual couch.

00:38:49.610 --> 00:38:52.830
And please go join my newsletter at TonyOverbay.com. The newsletters have been

00:38:52.830 --> 00:38:56.530
heating up and that's your front row seat to all the upcoming workshops on faith

00:38:56.530 --> 00:38:59.610
transitions and marriage, parenting, my men's emotional architects group,

00:38:59.890 --> 00:39:02.750
a place for guys ready to grow into emotional maturity.

00:39:02.830 --> 00:39:05.690
A lot of the things I've been talking about today and over the last few weeks.

00:39:05.690 --> 00:39:09.230
And if you're ready to reclaim your life from corn-nugraphy.

00:39:10.152 --> 00:39:14.572
I hope you know what I'm talking about. Check out the Path Back at pathbackrecovery.com.

00:39:14.752 --> 00:39:15.772
It's proven. It's affordable.

00:39:16.212 --> 00:39:19.192
And I've had this course out for a number of years.

00:39:19.532 --> 00:39:24.332
And the best part of it is weekly live calls with yours truly and a group of amazing guys.

00:39:24.612 --> 00:39:27.532
And I also love hearing from you, your challenges, your victories,

00:39:27.632 --> 00:39:29.092
your questions. So please keep them coming.

00:39:29.432 --> 00:39:32.592
And you can reach out to me through my website, TonyOverway.com.

00:39:32.672 --> 00:39:35.252
If you're interested in working with me one-on-one or maybe as a couple.

00:39:35.892 --> 00:39:38.332
From time to time, I do have availability or openings.

00:39:38.532 --> 00:39:41.372
Reach out to me through my website. Let's get back into today's episode.

00:39:41.872 --> 00:39:44.652
Now we're bringing another person to the mix. Let's talk about Sophia.

00:39:45.132 --> 00:39:49.092
So Sophia started her career in a large corporate law firm, very much like Jordan.

00:39:49.272 --> 00:39:51.272
She was smart and hardworking and eager to please.

00:39:51.772 --> 00:39:55.132
In her first few years, she built a reputation by doing whatever was asked,

00:39:55.332 --> 00:39:58.812
taking weekend calls, avoiding questions about questionable clients,

00:39:58.912 --> 00:40:00.592
and smoothing things over, always with a smile.

00:40:00.972 --> 00:40:04.372
So on paper, her career looked pretty much perfect. But inside,

00:40:04.552 --> 00:40:06.432
she started to feel like she was living somebody else's life,

00:40:06.572 --> 00:40:08.312
the definite case of imposter syndrome.

00:40:08.892 --> 00:40:12.992
So one day, she found herself drafting some legal documents for a case that

00:40:12.992 --> 00:40:17.272
she really didn't agree with, and it was starting to eat her up inside.

00:40:17.592 --> 00:40:21.952
The documents were helping a client block funding to a community program that

00:40:21.952 --> 00:40:25.632
had actually helped her family years ago. So she felt sick.

00:40:25.912 --> 00:40:29.492
That night, she said that she just laid awake and she was asking herself, okay,

00:40:29.732 --> 00:40:34.972
if I'm this uncomfortable now, what will my life look like in 10 years if I

00:40:34.972 --> 00:40:38.852
continue to support this company that is doing this thing that will shut down

00:40:38.852 --> 00:40:41.512
a program that saved my family.

00:40:42.352 --> 00:40:46.792
We talked a lot. We talked about what it would look like to deal with the discomfort,

00:40:47.032 --> 00:40:48.672
how much courage it would take.

00:40:48.732 --> 00:40:53.072
And it started small. So she started just to say no to certain assignments.

00:40:53.212 --> 00:40:56.472
And even at first she was not saying, I refuse to do this. She would say,

00:40:56.632 --> 00:40:59.132
I'm just overwhelmed. So can you take care of that?

00:40:59.992 --> 00:41:02.812
And she sought out work that aligned more with their values,

00:41:02.992 --> 00:41:06.092
even if it meant fewer billable hours, less kudos and praise,

00:41:06.272 --> 00:41:10.632
maybe even not starting to rise up the ranks to become a partner. And...

00:41:11.386 --> 00:41:16.206
She joined a pro bono immigration case, then that she felt alive.

00:41:16.346 --> 00:41:17.706
That reignited her passion for law.

00:41:18.086 --> 00:41:22.686
So slowly, Sophia began to feel more autonomous. She began to feel more competent

00:41:22.686 --> 00:41:24.226
in work that mattered to her.

00:41:24.526 --> 00:41:28.006
It raised her emotional baseline, and she felt more connected to the colleagues

00:41:28.006 --> 00:41:29.946
who shared her values that were working within that group.

00:41:30.526 --> 00:41:32.406
And she looked back when she was

00:41:32.406 --> 00:41:35.906
working in the area of the firm that she absolutely did not care about.

00:41:36.386 --> 00:41:39.366
She said, I didn't really care much for the people either.

00:41:40.006 --> 00:41:44.946
And then as we continue to work together, within a year, she left for a smaller

00:41:44.946 --> 00:41:47.646
firm that had a real strong public interest practice.

00:41:47.846 --> 00:41:53.186
And it was not as glamorous and she made a lot less money, but she felt alive.

00:41:53.266 --> 00:41:56.566
She said she finally felt like she was coming home to herself and she had traded

00:41:56.566 --> 00:42:00.546
the applause of others and the potential to have the big corporate office and

00:42:00.546 --> 00:42:04.286
a lot of money for the quiet confidence of her integrity.

00:42:04.486 --> 00:42:07.646
And honestly, she never looked back. And Sophia's story, again,

00:42:07.846 --> 00:42:10.186
based on a true story of a client that I worked with.

00:42:10.286 --> 00:42:12.586
Now, not everybody makes that shift.

00:42:12.726 --> 00:42:16.066
And I did have to go a little bit in the way back machine to get this example.

00:42:16.646 --> 00:42:21.366
Let's call this client Daniel. Daniel also started out as ambitious and sharp

00:42:21.366 --> 00:42:25.186
and eager to move up the ranks in a big law firm. I am not an attorney.

00:42:25.686 --> 00:42:29.386
And today it started, we'll get to some research in a little bit that had to

00:42:29.386 --> 00:42:31.966
do with law firms. So if I'm taking you on my train of thought,

00:42:32.126 --> 00:42:37.886
I was starting to comb my mind for examples that had to do with attorneys that

00:42:37.886 --> 00:42:39.066
I've worked with as clients.

00:42:39.666 --> 00:42:43.626
So Daniel, like Sophia, he had moments where his work was starting to become

00:42:43.626 --> 00:42:44.966
at odds with his personal values.

00:42:45.186 --> 00:42:48.666
He drew up contracts that protected corporations from accountability,

00:42:49.006 --> 00:42:52.506
that got them into tax shelters and saved them billions of dollars.

00:42:52.806 --> 00:42:57.186
He started to craft arguments that undermine causes that he actually supported outside of work.

00:42:57.786 --> 00:43:01.926
And what's fascinating is he was coming into therapy, which was great.

00:43:02.346 --> 00:43:08.366
And it was early on in my therapy career, there would be these times,

00:43:08.426 --> 00:43:09.446
not just with an attorney.

00:43:09.646 --> 00:43:12.906
I remember someone that came into me and they opened up about these addictive

00:43:12.906 --> 00:43:17.026
behaviors they had. They also held a very high position in their church.

00:43:17.866 --> 00:43:22.166
And I thought, wow, this person is very brave. And they are coming to me and

00:43:22.166 --> 00:43:25.926
they don't like how they feel doing this addictive thing. and they were still

00:43:25.926 --> 00:43:32.446
entering a temple, a very sacred place for their religion, and they were not being honest.

00:43:32.846 --> 00:43:35.306
And it was, again, this high position of authority.

00:43:35.846 --> 00:43:40.746
And in that situation, I remember saying, okay, man, I'm so impressed,

00:43:40.886 --> 00:43:43.546
so proud of you, so brave of you to get that off your chest. So.

00:43:44.623 --> 00:43:47.183
What do you want to do with that? And they said, oh, nothing.

00:43:47.363 --> 00:43:51.043
I just, I feel better. So I think I can continue with the behavior that I'm doing.

00:43:51.483 --> 00:43:54.703
I've also had people that have been in similar positions that have been called

00:43:54.703 --> 00:43:59.763
into a big position and then came and met with me and said, I can't do this.

00:43:59.843 --> 00:44:04.303
I have to be open about what I'm struggling with, even if it costs me this position

00:44:04.303 --> 00:44:08.383
and the social status or social capital in my faith community.

00:44:09.003 --> 00:44:14.963
I think it's so interesting, fascinating. I really enjoy that part of the job

00:44:14.963 --> 00:44:18.783
where you can get people that could literally even be back to back one hour

00:44:18.783 --> 00:44:24.443
to the next that have somewhat similar cases or problems that they're coming in with.

00:44:25.003 --> 00:44:31.223
And then they handle them completely in different ways because we're all different.

00:44:31.803 --> 00:44:34.883
All that wonderful combination of all the things, the nature of the nurturing,

00:44:35.023 --> 00:44:36.923
birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams.

00:44:36.923 --> 00:44:40.503
So we think and feel the way we do because we do, because there are so many variables.

00:44:41.383 --> 00:44:46.003
I go back to Daniel. Unlike Sophia, Daniel didn't even really pause to reflect.

00:44:46.163 --> 00:44:50.123
He just told himself, I'll get through this one case and then I'll focus on

00:44:50.123 --> 00:44:51.663
the work that really matters to him.

00:44:52.043 --> 00:44:54.683
One case, probably know where this is going, became two.

00:44:55.143 --> 00:44:58.923
But after this, it's going to be different except for I'm going to do one more.

00:44:59.203 --> 00:45:01.023
Let me do three, this third case.

00:45:01.463 --> 00:45:05.403
And it became a pattern. And over time, I started to get raises and promotions.

00:45:05.403 --> 00:45:07.463
But those came with the price tag.

00:45:07.663 --> 00:45:11.123
He started to grow distant from the person he thought he was.

00:45:12.163 --> 00:45:15.743
Now, even more of a side note, it's really fascinating as a couples therapist,

00:45:15.743 --> 00:45:20.283
because most all of us, we look at ourselves as a certain person.

00:45:20.423 --> 00:45:24.203
And then we present that out to our world, to the partner, and we say,

00:45:24.343 --> 00:45:25.803
you know me, this is who I am, right?

00:45:26.523 --> 00:45:30.063
And if that person even hesitates, says, yeah, sure.

00:45:30.603 --> 00:45:33.723
Then you get to say, well, what, you don't think I'm a great person?

00:45:33.723 --> 00:45:41.483
And now they're backpedaling, saying, no, I do, I do, but the energy's off and now that person is hurt.

00:45:41.703 --> 00:45:45.083
They feel like, I can't believe you don't know me, but in reality,

00:45:45.263 --> 00:45:47.763
maybe they don't know themselves and they're presenting this version of themselves

00:45:47.763 --> 00:45:49.963
and saying, I need you to validate this even if you don't agree,

00:45:50.123 --> 00:45:52.863
even if that's not the version that you're seeing because it will make me feel better.

00:45:53.303 --> 00:45:56.303
Back to Daniel. By the time that we worked together, Daniel admitted that he

00:45:56.303 --> 00:46:00.563
was really starting to feel hollow and starting to move into some depressive

00:46:00.563 --> 00:46:01.863
symptoms that he'd never felt before.

00:46:02.363 --> 00:46:10.543
He was still successful on paper, but he was exhausted in life and he lost sight of his autonomy.

00:46:11.303 --> 00:46:15.323
Decisions were driven by what will keep me in favor with the partners of the law firm.

00:46:15.663 --> 00:46:20.883
His competence was unquestioned, but it was in service of outcomes he did not

00:46:20.883 --> 00:46:23.223
believe in. Over time, that is hard to keep up.

00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:28.309
He felt isolated. He was surrounded by people who saw him as reliable,

00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:30.449
but not as somebody who stood for anything. And quite frankly,

00:46:30.549 --> 00:46:31.809
he didn't really feel a connection to them either.

00:46:32.809 --> 00:46:36.349
Daniel wasn't a bad person. He was far from it. He'd just been living in a way

00:46:36.349 --> 00:46:38.829
that made it hard to look in the mirror without flinching.

00:46:39.729 --> 00:46:44.669
I wasn't sure if I was going to share this, and I've changed a lot of the details, but for the record,

00:46:44.969 --> 00:46:47.789
because all I've been talking about today are these clients,

00:46:48.009 --> 00:46:53.109
these examples of these powerful attorneys and the struggles they have making,

00:46:53.369 --> 00:46:55.549
who knows, they're $400 or $500 an hour.

00:46:56.229 --> 00:46:59.989
But yes, for the record, these were both ambitious clients and big professional

00:46:59.989 --> 00:47:01.109
jobs, but don't get me wrong.

00:47:01.449 --> 00:47:04.649
I still work with the occasional Brad, but Brad is in his mid thirties,

00:47:04.829 --> 00:47:08.589
lives at home, loves chugging two liters of Mountain Dew code red,

00:47:08.789 --> 00:47:11.729
and he experiences most of his life online.

00:47:12.089 --> 00:47:15.429
He often refers to his online persona or Sona, as he calls it,

00:47:15.809 --> 00:47:17.169
like it's a separate legal entity.

00:47:17.589 --> 00:47:20.649
And instead of telling me about conflicts with hillary or

00:47:20.649 --> 00:47:23.729
edward or griffin over the ethics of helping a

00:47:23.729 --> 00:47:26.809
one billion dollar company swallow another billion dollar company brad's

00:47:26.809 --> 00:47:30.249
big moral dilemma is about whether shadowmancer underscore 420 and

00:47:30.249 --> 00:47:34.129
princess meow mix 99 were right to say that the pizza sauce inside of a hot

00:47:34.129 --> 00:47:37.769
pocket technically counts as a vegetable because this apparently turned into

00:47:37.769 --> 00:47:42.129
a heated debate in his guild's discord server and things escalated quickly until

00:47:42.129 --> 00:47:45.529
their magical cleric that was part of the guild rage quit right before they

00:47:45.529 --> 00:47:48.229
were supposed to raid in orc city and legends of Flagnar.

00:47:48.409 --> 00:47:51.409
Now, without a cleric, I think we all know, at least Brad told me,

00:47:51.769 --> 00:47:54.549
they didn't have enough healing spells to survive the third wave of lava orcs,

00:47:54.589 --> 00:47:56.629
which then caused a catastrophic wipe,

00:47:57.334 --> 00:48:00.654
And he said this with the same tone of voice most of my attorney clients use

00:48:00.654 --> 00:48:04.474
when they tell me that they just lost tens of millions of dollars in a merger.

00:48:05.294 --> 00:48:09.974
Here's the kicker. Brad insists this wasn't just a game. It was a lifestyle betrayal.

00:48:11.114 --> 00:48:14.754
Honestly, and maybe I've changed a little bit of these details,

00:48:14.754 --> 00:48:18.174
quite a few to protect the confidentiality, but it's not far off.

00:48:18.774 --> 00:48:22.254
According to Brad, the sauce as a vegetable camp has always been in alignment

00:48:22.254 --> 00:48:26.674
with the clerics' build choices. And this was basically a bit of a constitutional

00:48:26.674 --> 00:48:28.174
crisis in the realm of Flagnar.

00:48:28.774 --> 00:48:32.694
So yes, integrity shows up in all sorts of ways, sometimes in courtrooms and

00:48:32.694 --> 00:48:35.914
corporate boardrooms and sometimes in pixelated orc cities under siege.

00:48:36.294 --> 00:48:39.914
My job is to help people figure out if they are living in alignment with their

00:48:39.914 --> 00:48:43.114
values, whether those values involve justice or fairness or defending the sacred

00:48:43.114 --> 00:48:45.274
honor of processed microwavable snacks.

00:48:46.154 --> 00:48:50.294
Because whether you're debating corporate ethics or the vegetable status of

00:48:50.294 --> 00:48:52.054
hot pocket sauce, which I don't think it's a vegetable.

00:48:52.394 --> 00:48:55.774
The real question is the same. Are you acting from your values?

00:48:55.874 --> 00:48:56.954
Are you just trying to win the argument?

00:48:57.854 --> 00:49:02.994
That tension between what's easy or rewarding and what's aligning with one's

00:49:02.994 --> 00:49:06.754
core values is exactly what psychological research digs into.

00:49:06.954 --> 00:49:10.494
Let's explore a little bit of how human beings navigate that internal terrain

00:49:10.494 --> 00:49:13.634
when their integrity is tested, because it will be.

00:49:13.714 --> 00:49:18.794
If you are interacting with life, You will find yourself having to really hold

00:49:18.794 --> 00:49:21.234
on to your integrity or really define your values.

00:49:21.614 --> 00:49:25.514
So how do you find the strength to act from your values, whether in courtrooms

00:49:25.514 --> 00:49:28.794
or living rooms? What do these stories about these big law firms teach us?

00:49:28.954 --> 00:49:32.054
First, it's that external pressure will always test integrity,

00:49:32.054 --> 00:49:36.454
whether it's coming from a president, a client, a partner, a paycheck.

00:49:36.654 --> 00:49:41.754
Pressure has a way of cornering people and cornering institutions into choices

00:49:41.754 --> 00:49:45.134
they might never have imagined making in calmer times.

00:49:45.494 --> 00:49:50.514
The therapist in me sees that so often where someone has said to me,

00:49:50.674 --> 00:49:57.074
I would never do what I did until I found myself in a position that I did it.

00:49:57.254 --> 00:50:02.534
You can think through things. You can say, I would never let myself cross certain lines.

00:50:03.314 --> 00:50:06.834
But usually you're saying that when you are nowhere near those lines.

00:50:07.414 --> 00:50:12.014
So when you then have that experience, that's when you truly discover who you are.

00:50:13.214 --> 00:50:16.254
And i mean that with the utmost in

00:50:16.254 --> 00:50:19.354
acceptance because as carl rogers the

00:50:19.354 --> 00:50:22.034
famous psychologist says once i accept myself as i

00:50:22.034 --> 00:50:26.074
am that is when i can change but if i'm trying to pretend that i didn't know

00:50:26.074 --> 00:50:30.394
that i didn't do that that isn't me then i'm going to continue to do that same

00:50:30.394 --> 00:50:36.914
thing trying to make sure that no one thinks bad of me second that some people

00:50:36.914 --> 00:50:40.394
in some firms are willing to absorb the hit that comes with saying no.

00:50:40.814 --> 00:50:44.414
They know that in the short term, they might lose business. They might strain relationships.

00:50:44.614 --> 00:50:48.454
People will think different things about them. They might be labeled difficult,

00:50:48.454 --> 00:50:52.434
but they also know that they'll be able to look themselves in the mirror.

00:50:53.419 --> 00:50:56.939
Third, we could pick up from what we've talked about so far today,

00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:01.319
that integrity isn't just a personal trait. It's an internal commitment that

00:51:01.319 --> 00:51:02.859
shapes the culture around you.

00:51:03.299 --> 00:51:07.479
When somebody like this Rachel Cohen leaves a place like the law firm Skadden,

00:51:07.579 --> 00:51:10.059
rather than compromise their principles, it doesn't just make headlines.

00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:15.579
It sends a message to every young associate watching from the sidelines that

00:51:15.579 --> 00:51:19.599
this is what it looks like to anchor yourself to your values, even when it costs you.

00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:25.539
And what I see so often in a family dynamic is someone that is,

00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.979
let's say, waking up to the narcissistic traits and tendencies or emotional

00:51:28.979 --> 00:51:31.279
maturity in their relationship and their partner.

00:51:31.459 --> 00:51:35.339
And they have that courage to push to come to couples counseling and they learn

00:51:35.339 --> 00:51:40.619
to get the tools or the skills to be able to stay grounded and speak their values,

00:51:40.799 --> 00:51:41.919
their wants, their needs,

00:51:42.139 --> 00:51:47.259
not from a place of manipulation or coercion or control, but from a place of integrity.

00:51:47.459 --> 00:51:50.479
This is what I do. This is what I would like in the relationship.

00:51:51.139 --> 00:51:55.719
And they will have to deal with a tremendous amount of discomfort because the

00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.799
person that they are most likely in a relationship with,

00:51:58.999 --> 00:52:04.039
the fact that the person that I am working with has said, I want to go to counseling

00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:08.539
and it has not been easy is because the person that they are interacting with,

00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:12.599
their partner has most likely put pressure on them to say, well,

00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:15.399
I don't want to. I think everything's fine. That's a you issue.

00:52:16.419 --> 00:52:20.799
So it's easy to read these headlines about these law firms and think of them

00:52:20.799 --> 00:52:25.279
as just stories about giant law firms, people in very nice tailored suits behind

00:52:25.279 --> 00:52:27.759
these glass doors up on the 80th floor.

00:52:28.888 --> 00:52:32.108
Really, these are human stories. These strip away the marble lobbies,

00:52:32.268 --> 00:52:36.288
the $1,000 billable hours, and what you're left with is the same tension that

00:52:36.288 --> 00:52:39.548
we all face in our own lives, the choice between what's comfortable and what's right.

00:52:40.008 --> 00:52:42.408
And if we go all the way back to what we talked about at the beginning of the

00:52:42.408 --> 00:52:46.108
podcast, the difference between character and integrity, this is it in real time.

00:52:46.848 --> 00:52:48.788
Character can help you survive in a system.

00:52:49.808 --> 00:52:53.868
Integrity, that's what helps you live with yourself once the lights are off and nobody's watching.

00:52:54.188 --> 00:52:58.528
The truth is the stakes don't have to be billion-dollar legal battles to make integrity matter.

00:52:58.888 --> 00:53:03.308
The setting could be a hospital, a classroom, a construction site, or a kitchen table.

00:53:04.008 --> 00:53:06.848
Because in the end, the question is the same.

00:53:07.088 --> 00:53:13.948
Am I making this decision for approval or for the alignment with my values?

00:53:14.108 --> 00:53:18.428
And I have seen the same kind of choice play out far outside of courtrooms.

00:53:18.968 --> 00:53:23.228
Take Anjali, a senior product manager at a major Silicon Valley tech company.

00:53:23.428 --> 00:53:27.268
Her team was working on a new feature that on paper, it looked like a home run.

00:53:27.448 --> 00:53:30.788
I was jealous. This is one where you wish you could have some insider info and

00:53:30.788 --> 00:53:32.568
invest in that sort of thing.

00:53:32.888 --> 00:53:36.708
Because what she was talking about was very sleek. It was kind of addictive

00:53:36.708 --> 00:53:41.628
and it was guaranteed to make users scroll longer, which meant more ad revenue and happier investors.

00:53:42.188 --> 00:53:46.728
But she came in and name has been changed as well as some of the other details.

00:53:47.008 --> 00:53:50.828
But as she tested this product, she couldn't shake the feeling that this is

00:53:50.828 --> 00:53:53.388
not good. We are building something that is very harmful.

00:53:54.058 --> 00:53:58.298
Some of the features that she talked about were designed to exploit psychological

00:53:58.298 --> 00:54:04.578
hooks, especially in younger users, to keep them on an app far longer than was healthy.

00:54:05.058 --> 00:54:09.338
Now, she could have done what I think most people in her position might do. Keep your head down.

00:54:09.738 --> 00:54:14.818
You're paid to do a job. That's all. Meet your deadlines and cash your ginormous

00:54:14.818 --> 00:54:17.398
bonus and maybe even tip your therapist.

00:54:18.878 --> 00:54:23.858
That's character being competent, agreeable, reliable, but it's not necessarily integrity.

00:54:24.318 --> 00:54:27.398
Now, instead, she did the hard thing.

00:54:27.578 --> 00:54:29.738
She called a meeting. She laid out her concerns to her team,

00:54:29.838 --> 00:54:32.558
even though she knew it might slow the project.

00:54:32.738 --> 00:54:35.598
It might make her unpopular with the higher ups. It might get her fired.

00:54:36.098 --> 00:54:39.838
And she even proposed some changes, things like, so should we build on our own

00:54:39.838 --> 00:54:43.418
screen time of sorts, time use reminders, maybe some built-in controls to limit

00:54:43.418 --> 00:54:45.858
compulsive scrolling that would protect users?

00:54:46.078 --> 00:54:50.258
It would hurt our engagement metrics, but they're probably going to be fine.

00:54:51.158 --> 00:54:54.498
And everyone said yes and they lifted her up in the air and threw her up and

00:54:54.498 --> 00:54:57.518
down and she lived happily ever after and they gave her all the money and the company.

00:54:58.878 --> 00:55:02.158
No. The fallout was pretty real. The launch was delayed.

00:55:02.358 --> 00:55:05.498
Numbers dipped and she missed out on her promotion and a bonus and a lot of

00:55:05.498 --> 00:55:08.678
people thought that she was too idealistic.

00:55:09.678 --> 00:55:14.298
But the word got out and users noticed and feedback poured in praising the changes

00:55:14.298 --> 00:55:16.058
and over time other teams started

00:55:16.058 --> 00:55:20.138
using her approach and it became a model for a more ethical design.

00:55:20.998 --> 00:55:24.818
So like Alexis in the law firm, Anjali didn't just make a decision, she made a statement.

00:55:25.238 --> 00:55:30.298
She proved that holding on to herself, her integrity is not about avoiding discomfort.

00:55:30.298 --> 00:55:33.958
Oh no, it was very discomforting or uncomfortable.

00:55:34.458 --> 00:55:36.858
It's about walking straight into that discomfort.

00:55:37.980 --> 00:55:42.700
Because that's where your values lead you. You say things that you say or do

00:55:42.700 --> 00:55:46.460
the things that you do because that's what you do, because that's what's right for you.

00:55:47.200 --> 00:55:50.600
Another example, we will call him Marcus, same industry, different company,

00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:54.720
senior product manager, very sharp, very fast moving, lots of ADHD,

00:55:55.240 --> 00:55:57.780
a natural building relationships with other corporate executives.

00:55:57.940 --> 00:56:01.420
His team rolled out a different product, but it was a similar concept,

00:56:02.020 --> 00:56:03.900
similar engagement boosting feature.

00:56:04.600 --> 00:56:09.700
And it had all these hooks. And as a matter of fact, it actually got me to look

00:56:09.700 --> 00:56:12.980
at my phone and apps and things differently to look at all the different ways

00:56:12.980 --> 00:56:14.660
that I didn't even realize I was being manipulated.

00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.480
People were glued to their screens. So Marcus noticed the same potential downsides

00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:21.840
Angelique did. He even mentioned them in passing to a colleague, kind of joking.

00:56:22.240 --> 00:56:25.820
Well, not really great for humanity, but how about those click-through rates?

00:56:25.820 --> 00:56:28.020
So probably going to be a good bonus.

00:56:29.160 --> 00:56:32.920
But he stopped there. He even told me at one point that he said,

00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:37.380
I now realize I was saying jokes and humor, hoping that the other person would

00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:41.660
say, oh, I think we should go in there and say, we will no longer work on this.

00:56:41.720 --> 00:56:46.200
But he said, I wasn't going to say it, but he didn't take his concerns any further.

00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:49.540
And the project hit its deadlines and the metrics soared and Marcus was promoted

00:56:49.540 --> 00:56:52.100
and he got lots of money and he did not tip his therapist because you actually

00:56:52.100 --> 00:56:53.300
don't tip therapists, I'll be honest.

00:56:53.740 --> 00:56:57.900
Now, from the outside, Marcus looked like a success story and it was the wildest

00:56:57.900 --> 00:57:03.500
thing to process that, where he's like, whoopee, I'm loaded and the project

00:57:03.500 --> 00:57:06.740
did great and things like that. But he did not feel great.

00:57:07.300 --> 00:57:09.980
He looked like a competent, reliable leader who got results.

00:57:10.100 --> 00:57:12.680
But inside, he admitted to me that he did not feel as proud as he thought he would.

00:57:13.020 --> 00:57:16.660
He had avoided conflict. He kept his approval rating high and he stayed comfortable.

00:57:17.380 --> 00:57:21.620
But he'd also stayed silent and he let external validation steer his ship.

00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.700
That's the difference that we've been talking about. Marcus chose character

00:57:25.700 --> 00:57:29.840
without integrity. And while it worked in the short run, told me there's still

00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:33.000
a part of him wondering what might have happened if he had spoken up.

00:57:33.983 --> 00:57:38.743
Let's tie this back to the concepts around emotional maturity and external validation.

00:57:39.083 --> 00:57:42.823
I think there's a thread running through every example so far in the episode,

00:57:42.983 --> 00:57:46.603
whether you, again, are a law firm, tech company, battling orcs, anywhere else.

00:57:46.783 --> 00:57:48.963
The real pivot point is the same.

00:57:49.243 --> 00:57:52.443
Emotional maturity means moving from letting external validation dictate your

00:57:52.443 --> 00:57:55.063
choices to letting your internal values guide them.

00:57:55.843 --> 00:57:58.303
Anjali anchored herself to her values even when it cost her.

00:57:58.423 --> 00:58:01.703
Marcus stayed tethered to approval even when it chipped away at his sense of

00:58:01.703 --> 00:58:06.163
self. And that's the crossroads we all face over and over and over again.

00:58:06.343 --> 00:58:10.403
Now let's take this out of the courtroom and the boardroom for a moment and

00:58:10.403 --> 00:58:14.283
let's go into the world of faith, specifically in a high demand religion.

00:58:15.663 --> 00:58:20.243
Imagine you've been deeply involved for years. You've held leadership positions.

00:58:20.243 --> 00:58:23.883
You've taught classes. You've been there for weddings and funerals and youth events.

00:58:24.123 --> 00:58:27.743
This is where you got your social capital. This is where you enjoyed rites of

00:58:27.743 --> 00:58:29.203
passage, your community.

00:58:29.703 --> 00:58:33.423
And you've had moments where the community has been an incredible source of

00:58:33.423 --> 00:58:35.723
comfort and moments where it's been challenging.

00:58:35.943 --> 00:58:40.123
But overall, you think, these are my people and this is where I belong.

00:58:40.303 --> 00:58:41.783
This is where I would find value and purpose.

00:58:42.343 --> 00:58:47.623
And one day, your teenage child comes to you and says, Mom, Dad, I'm gay.

00:58:48.563 --> 00:58:51.723
This is where character and integrity can point in different directions.

00:58:52.383 --> 00:58:55.743
Character in this context might mean continuing to fit the mold of what your

00:58:55.743 --> 00:58:56.743
faith community expects.

00:58:57.343 --> 00:59:02.663
You might even tell your child, hey, I love you, but you know what you're doing isn't right.

00:59:03.403 --> 00:59:06.543
You can avoid speaking up publicly because you don't want to jeopardize your standing.

00:59:07.403 --> 00:59:10.243
So then you follow all the rules, even if you don't fully agree with them,

00:59:10.303 --> 00:59:14.443
because it's too uncomfortable to speak up, even at the risk of potentially losing your kid.

00:59:15.083 --> 00:59:18.143
So that's what a good member does. You keep your seat at the table,

00:59:18.303 --> 00:59:20.523
but you tuck away part of your child's identity to do it.

00:59:21.786 --> 00:59:25.986
Integrity, on the other hand, means aligning your words and actions with your

00:59:25.986 --> 00:59:27.906
deepest values, even if that costs you.

00:59:28.266 --> 00:59:31.486
And it might mean telling your faith leaders, hey, I support my child fully.

00:59:31.646 --> 00:59:35.606
I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I'm interacting with a situation and

00:59:35.606 --> 00:59:38.226
I realize that this is how I feel.

00:59:38.306 --> 00:59:42.346
I support my child fully and I believe our community should too.

00:59:43.086 --> 00:59:46.746
And it might mean challenging policies that you once defended blindly.

00:59:47.306 --> 00:59:51.386
You risk disapproval. You most likely will not be considered for leadership roles.

00:59:51.546 --> 00:59:54.006
Maybe even friendships disappear, unfortunately, and that is one of the most

00:59:54.006 --> 00:59:58.306
difficult things or people that say, hey, we're close. You're like a brother

00:59:58.306 --> 00:59:59.946
or sister. We're best friends.

01:00:00.646 --> 01:00:07.726
Unless you decide to become your best version of yourself, then I don't want to do that anymore.

01:00:08.406 --> 01:00:12.586
But you also want to keep your child's trust and your self-respect and your

01:00:12.586 --> 01:00:16.066
alignment with the values and love and compassion and justice that drew you

01:00:16.066 --> 01:00:17.126
your faith in the first place.

01:00:18.426 --> 01:00:22.286
Now let's go one step further. Imagine years later, you discover your spouse

01:00:22.286 --> 01:00:23.926
has been unfaithful and it's devastating.

01:00:24.266 --> 01:00:28.246
But the two of you go to therapy and you do the work. You are consistent and

01:00:28.246 --> 01:00:30.666
it's uncomfortable and it's icky and you know people are talking,

01:00:30.686 --> 01:00:32.966
but you get the tools that you never had before.

01:00:33.126 --> 01:00:37.866
And maybe it's against the odds, but your marriage, it does become stronger than it has ever been.

01:00:38.886 --> 01:00:42.046
Now, you would think your community would celebrate that healing, right?

01:00:42.646 --> 01:00:45.526
But instead, you are treated like a second-class citizen.

01:00:45.806 --> 01:00:48.566
You hear the whispers, you're passed over for positions of authority.

01:00:48.846 --> 01:00:53.166
It's almost like you're not picked for the proverbial spiritual kickball team.

01:00:53.806 --> 01:00:58.366
Whether you're the betrayer or the betrayed, you're now quietly excluded from

01:00:58.366 --> 01:00:59.446
certain leadership roles.

01:00:59.886 --> 01:01:04.046
People treat you with pity or suspicion or judgment because in their eyes,

01:01:04.266 --> 01:01:05.766
you are now damaged goods.

01:01:06.266 --> 01:01:10.966
One of the parts of that that stings the most is the treatment that flies in

01:01:10.966 --> 01:01:13.746
the face of the very Christian values, redemption, grace, restoration,

01:01:13.906 --> 01:01:17.166
all are welcome at the table. that you thought were at the heart of your faith.

01:01:17.946 --> 01:01:21.626
And that's really today's theme. That's what it looks like in real life.

01:01:21.966 --> 01:01:24.826
When character is about playing the part the community expects,

01:01:25.146 --> 01:01:27.706
you might stay in good standing, but at the cost of authenticity.

01:01:28.186 --> 01:01:32.106
When integrity is about living your values consistently, even when it means

01:01:32.106 --> 01:01:34.486
losing status, you might find yourself on the outside.

01:01:34.946 --> 01:01:38.886
So in both this LGBTQ plus example and the marriage example,

01:01:39.306 --> 01:01:43.066
the tension is the same one that we've been talking about all episode.

01:01:43.066 --> 01:01:48.166
Do I choose comfort and get approval and belonging on someone else's terms?

01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:53.500
Or do I have the courage to choose alignment and authenticity and belong to myself?

01:01:54.120 --> 01:01:57.620
One protects your position. The other protects your soul.

01:01:58.420 --> 01:02:02.760
And in both of these faith community scenarios, the parent of a gay child and

01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:05.500
the couple who rebuilt their marriage, the hardest truth is this.

01:02:05.600 --> 01:02:08.340
Sometimes integrity will put you at odds with the very community that you have

01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:10.980
loved and served and you still want to be a part of that community.

01:02:11.540 --> 01:02:14.680
But I promise you, it will never put you at odds with your own soul.

01:02:14.680 --> 01:02:19.040
I've worked with so many people over the years that have navigated a faith journey,

01:02:19.240 --> 01:02:24.440
a faith crisis, a faith deconstruction, and have come out the other side feeling

01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:29.960
even closer to the divine because they now realize that they are a child of

01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:32.820
God with their God-given talents and abilities.

01:02:32.820 --> 01:02:36.320
The way they let their light so shine is to be themselves.

01:02:37.640 --> 01:02:41.940
And calling upon my Christian roots here, for those who speak fluent Christianity,

01:02:42.220 --> 01:02:45.700
I've been thinking a lot lately about the verse that talks about God is the

01:02:45.700 --> 01:02:49.820
same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and then the idea that God is love.

01:02:50.100 --> 01:02:51.400
His love is unconditional.

01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:55.900
If His love is unconditional, which I believe it is, then His unconditional

01:02:55.900 --> 01:02:58.500
love is also the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

01:02:58.940 --> 01:03:02.200
Now, from a differentiation standpoint, that means God knows exactly who He

01:03:02.200 --> 01:03:06.660
is, regardless of whether we, as imperfect humans, make mistakes or not.

01:03:07.040 --> 01:03:10.360
And actually, I think that's the whole point. We are supposed to be imperfect

01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:12.980
because that's how we learn. That's the human condition.

01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:18.120
So whenever I find myself thinking, God must be mad at me, it's no longer there

01:03:18.120 --> 01:03:20.580
because I now see that's a me issue, not a him issue.

01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:25.180
Because he's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and his love has not changed. It's unconditional.

01:03:25.640 --> 01:03:30.100
I used to wrestle with the weighty term repentance, because when people say

01:03:30.100 --> 01:03:33.540
it, it's kind of said with those serious eyes, the head turns a little bit and

01:03:33.540 --> 01:03:37.340
like a deep nod, thinking that it's more of this reminder of shortcomings.

01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.860
But if you dig into its meaning, I think it's pronounced metanoia.

01:03:42.653 --> 01:03:47.033
It means a change of mind or direction, turning back toward love.

01:03:47.573 --> 01:03:50.253
And that's when I realized, okay, repentance isn't about shame.

01:03:50.253 --> 01:03:51.173
It's about realignment.

01:03:51.373 --> 01:03:56.673
It's about returning to a safe, secure attachment, a safe home base after wandering.

01:03:56.893 --> 01:04:01.493
It's like coming home and your parents have a nice home-cooked meal and they

01:04:01.493 --> 01:04:04.993
want to give you a hug and say, tell me what's going on, champ. How was today?

01:04:05.833 --> 01:04:08.313
That's exactly how I want to live. Not as somebody who's bad,

01:04:08.473 --> 01:04:09.253
but as somebody who's becoming.

01:04:09.713 --> 01:04:13.093
And then I will gladly turn back again and again and again.

01:04:13.213 --> 01:04:17.313
I will repent on a minute-by-minute basis because I'm turning back to the secure

01:04:17.313 --> 01:04:20.653
attachment of a heavenly being who is saying, you're good.

01:04:21.133 --> 01:04:24.193
I love you. And I'm saying, yeah, remember the thing I did over there?

01:04:24.353 --> 01:04:26.453
It kind of messed up. They're like, you're good. Love you.

01:04:27.693 --> 01:04:32.513
Because that is how we grow and we find ourselves by doing, by exploring, by being.

01:04:33.093 --> 01:04:38.073
That's how we unpack these gifts that we hold within us. And our inherent nature is good.

01:04:38.873 --> 01:04:42.353
So if repentance means turning back to a loving God whose love never wavers,

01:04:42.653 --> 01:04:44.833
count me in. Again, I will do it all the time.

01:04:45.153 --> 01:04:48.793
Because that's not about shame. It's about a relationship. It's a secure attachment.

01:04:49.493 --> 01:04:53.313
John Bowlby, the father of attachment theory, taught that a secure base is what

01:04:53.313 --> 01:04:56.333
allows us to go out into the world and explore and make mistakes and learn and

01:04:56.333 --> 01:04:58.893
then return for safety and reassurance. That's how we thrive.

01:04:59.473 --> 01:05:02.713
So now when I turn back to God, it's not from a place of I'm bad.

01:05:03.253 --> 01:05:06.933
It's from a place of I'm learning. I'm doing life for the very first time as

01:05:06.933 --> 01:05:10.213
me. I'm figuring it out as I go, and I know there's a safe place to return to,

01:05:10.353 --> 01:05:15.093
so I am feeling comfortable and safe to express opinions and to try things and figure out who I am.

01:05:15.573 --> 01:05:18.693
And that's the heartbeat of what we're talking about today, whether you are

01:05:18.693 --> 01:05:22.813
in a high-powered law firm or a tech company or a faith community or just in your living room.

01:05:23.293 --> 01:05:27.413
The question is the same. Am I making my choices for approval or for alignment

01:05:27.413 --> 01:05:29.333
with my values? Do I even know what my values are?

01:05:29.973 --> 01:05:32.873
Character will help you fit in. Integrity will help you stand tall.

01:05:33.373 --> 01:05:36.213
Character might keep you comfortable, but integrity will keep you whole.

01:05:36.213 --> 01:05:39.873
And if we can anchor ourselves to a secure sense of self, whether that's rooted

01:05:39.873 --> 01:05:42.073
in faith or values or a deep knowing of who we are,

01:05:42.273 --> 01:05:46.553
I promise you we can navigate the pressure, the criticism, the temptation to

01:05:46.553 --> 01:05:49.013
conform without losing ourselves in the process.

01:05:49.133 --> 01:05:53.233
And that's part of being able to think critically and to self-confront and to

01:05:53.233 --> 01:05:55.173
figure out, turns out I'm a pretty good person.

01:05:55.633 --> 01:05:58.813
Because at the end of the day, integrity is about coming home to your values,

01:05:58.813 --> 01:06:02.113
to your truth, or to a God whose love is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

01:06:02.493 --> 01:06:05.653
And that, my friends, is a home worth coming back to.

01:06:06.833 --> 01:06:13.773
So before I turn to the wonderful, actually we'll not go to the music of my

01:06:13.773 --> 01:06:15.993
wonderful friend Aurora Florence and her song, It's Wonderful,

01:06:16.173 --> 01:06:20.133
because I want to invite you to take just a few minutes with me and let me guide

01:06:20.133 --> 01:06:20.813
you on a little meditation.

01:06:22.228 --> 01:06:29.128
And so as it ends, and if you are still feeling the vibe and you're not driving, then just be.

01:06:30.068 --> 01:06:34.688
So slow down and let's let everything we've talked about really sink in.

01:06:35.088 --> 01:06:40.008
Let's do the short guided meditation and help you connect with your values and

01:06:40.008 --> 01:06:43.528
find that secure base because you can always return to it.

01:06:43.928 --> 01:06:47.628
Whether you're facing a high pressure decision or just moving through everyday life.

01:06:48.128 --> 01:06:52.868
So if you are able, if you're not driving, probably not going to be good on

01:06:52.868 --> 01:06:56.728
a treadmill, find a comfortable spot and just give me a few minutes.

01:06:57.888 --> 01:06:59.948
Title this one, Coming Home to Your Values.

01:07:01.908 --> 01:07:06.868
So let's take a moment now to let everything that we've talked about settle in.

01:07:07.688 --> 01:07:12.248
Wherever you are, allow your body to find a comfortable position.

01:07:13.268 --> 01:07:18.008
You can be sitting up, you can be laying down. and if you feel comfortable,

01:07:18.428 --> 01:07:21.288
you might close your eyes or soften your gaze.

01:07:22.488 --> 01:07:26.148
And now take a slow, deep breath in through the nose,

01:07:28.988 --> 01:07:30.548
and out through the mouth.

01:07:33.048 --> 01:07:34.648
And again, in,

01:07:37.368 --> 01:07:39.068
and then out.

01:07:42.208 --> 01:07:48.268
And then you can return to your regular breathing. And if you're laying down,

01:07:48.648 --> 01:07:51.788
if you're sitting in a chair, I would love for you to feel the weight of your

01:07:51.788 --> 01:07:57.628
body supported by the chair or the couch or the floor beneath you.

01:07:58.968 --> 01:08:00.408
And notice your feet.

01:08:02.846 --> 01:08:08.506
Bring your awareness to them if they're connected to the ground and feel the

01:08:08.506 --> 01:08:13.566
steadiness that's been there all along and let your breath be easy.

01:08:13.786 --> 01:08:16.886
There's no need to control it. Just notice it. Just breathe.

01:08:18.206 --> 01:08:24.326
Now, bring to mind something, a value that feels really important to you.

01:08:24.326 --> 01:08:34.326
It might be love, it might be honesty, curiosity, authenticity, justice, compassion.

01:08:35.506 --> 01:08:42.786
There's actually no right or wrong. Just take notice of what rises to the surface. Check that out.

01:08:43.886 --> 01:08:48.966
And imagine this value is a light within you and it's steady.

01:08:49.386 --> 01:08:54.186
It doesn't flicker with other people's approval or disapproval.

01:08:54.326 --> 01:08:58.386
It just shines quietly, constantly.

01:08:59.966 --> 01:09:05.506
And now think of a moment in the past or the present, or you can even imagine

01:09:05.506 --> 01:09:10.786
one in the future where you've had to, or you will choose between what was comfortable

01:09:10.786 --> 01:09:13.586
and what was true to your value.

01:09:14.626 --> 01:09:18.846
If you chose comfort, it's no judgment. Just notice what that feels like in

01:09:18.846 --> 01:09:20.126
your body. Where do you feel that?

01:09:20.966 --> 01:09:24.426
But if you chose integrity, I want you to notice that feeling, too.

01:09:25.826 --> 01:09:29.546
Either way, see if you can soften around the story.

01:09:30.326 --> 01:09:34.146
Because you're not here to grade yourself. There is no right or wrong.

01:09:34.146 --> 01:09:35.406
You're here to understand.

01:09:36.986 --> 01:09:43.566
Now imagine what it would feel like to live from that value more and more each day.

01:09:45.616 --> 01:09:52.616
To return to it when you wander, to treat that value like a safe home you can

01:09:52.616 --> 01:09:58.616
come back to no matter where you've been or what happened or how long you've been away from it.

01:09:59.416 --> 01:10:03.716
Maybe that returning feeling feels like your faith in the divine.

01:10:04.856 --> 01:10:11.236
Maybe it feels like the unconditional love of a parent or a partner or a good friend, a pet.

01:10:12.416 --> 01:10:17.796
Maybe it's simply the deep knowing that you are actually okay. You're worthy.

01:10:18.316 --> 01:10:20.856
You're lovable even when you stumble.

01:10:21.396 --> 01:10:25.896
And this is your secure base. It's always here. It's always steady.

01:10:27.436 --> 01:10:33.376
As we close up, I want you to take one more deep breath in through the nose.

01:10:36.996 --> 01:10:41.056
Let it go out through the mouth and

01:10:41.056 --> 01:10:43.956
just carry this value with you

01:10:43.956 --> 01:10:48.596
gently into the rest of your day kind of like a compass quietly guiding you

01:10:48.596 --> 01:10:55.376
because remember you can always return to it again and again and you can return

01:10:55.376 --> 01:11:01.336
to this meditation again and again and see if something new comes up for you,

01:11:02.856 --> 01:11:11.176
when you're ready open your eyes rejoin the space around you i am so grateful

01:11:11.176 --> 01:11:17.096
that you took the time to be here with me today for this podcast reach out if

01:11:17.096 --> 01:11:18.436
you have questions or thoughts,

01:11:18.996 --> 01:11:21.656
and we'll see you next time on the virtual couch.