WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.135 --> 00:00:08.315 So picture this, it's 1987. 00:00:08.615 --> 00:00:12.635 I'm a fair skinned, fair haired teenager in Utah, and I'm lying on a 00:00:12.635 --> 00:00:17.435 trampoline in my backyard, slathered head to toe and baby oil man, there's 00:00:17.435 --> 00:00:20.115 a Diddy joke there, but my friends and I are convinced that we've discovered 00:00:20.335 --> 00:00:21.875 the secret to the perfect tan. 00:00:21.965 --> 00:00:25.275 We're literally cooking ourselves in the sun and in the winter we would 00:00:25.275 --> 00:00:28.915 drive up to the ski resorts in the canyons and create these makeshift. 00:00:29.599 --> 00:00:32.085 Reflective tanning beds in the snow, because apparently we 00:00:32.085 --> 00:00:34.964 thought that year round skin damage was the key to looking cool. 00:00:35.545 --> 00:00:40.445 And then fast forward to my early thirties, and I find myself sitting in a 00:00:40.445 --> 00:00:45.085 dermatologist office and he's explaining that all of these years of sun worship are 00:00:45.085 --> 00:00:46.805 about to haunt me for the rest of my life. 00:00:47.254 --> 00:00:51.045 Those scabs and these little scales that are covering my scalp, 00:00:51.235 --> 00:00:53.045 they're called actinic keratosis. 00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:58.810 They are these pre-cancerous growths that develop when your skin has been 00:00:58.810 --> 00:01:02.650 damaged by ultraviolet radiation over the course of many, many years. 00:01:03.349 --> 00:01:07.050 So basically this teenage quest for a tan that I never actually really got. 00:01:07.170 --> 00:01:11.370 I was more of red and peel had turned my scalp into a field 00:01:11.830 --> 00:01:13.009 of potential skin cancer. 00:01:13.985 --> 00:01:16.750 So for the next several years, I would go to the dermatologist's office twice 00:01:16.789 --> 00:01:20.990 a year and he would burn or freeze off the keratosis using liquid nitrogen. 00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:23.883 It would sting and it would scab, and then they would go away. 00:01:23.883 --> 00:01:27.043 And I would be good for a few more months when then more would 00:01:27.043 --> 00:01:28.163 appear in different places. 00:01:28.383 --> 00:01:29.083 So eventually. 00:01:30.163 --> 00:01:33.523 A doctor recommended a treatment that sounded almost worse than the problem. 00:01:33.863 --> 00:01:37.623 It was a topical chemotherapy cream called flu uracil. 00:01:38.203 --> 00:01:42.183 And this medication works by targeting these rapidly dividing cells like 00:01:42.483 --> 00:01:47.223 cancer cells, but it also affects any sun damage skin cells at all. 00:01:48.043 --> 00:01:50.703 The process is intense to say the least. 00:01:50.723 --> 00:01:52.783 The cream essentially causes all the damaged skin. 00:01:53.288 --> 00:01:57.308 To become inflamed and then scab over and then slough off, and 00:01:57.308 --> 00:02:00.428 then eventually revealing new, beautiful, healthy skin underneath. 00:02:00.808 --> 00:02:05.068 And if you are curious about what this looks like, you can actually 00:02:05.068 --> 00:02:07.508 Google my name and actinic keratosis. 00:02:08.258 --> 00:02:10.578 But buckle up because the pictures are very, very dramatic. 00:02:10.778 --> 00:02:16.338 I chronicled the entire experience some 15 years ago, but for about 00:02:16.338 --> 00:02:19.378 three weeks I looked like I'd been in some sort of accident. 00:02:19.438 --> 00:02:21.738 My entire head and my forehead were covered in these thick 00:02:22.118 --> 00:02:23.658 cresty scabs, big ones. 00:02:24.158 --> 00:02:27.458 And I became a walking testament to the dangers of sun damage. 00:02:27.998 --> 00:02:29.218 Now, here's what was fascinating. 00:02:29.718 --> 00:02:33.338 The way the world treated me during those three weeks was completely different. 00:02:34.078 --> 00:02:37.648 People would honestly it appeared to show some disgust. 00:02:37.958 --> 00:02:42.128 Some did show pity, but most people just avoided me and they looked away. 00:02:42.348 --> 00:02:47.408 Not like I'm getting people staring at me constantly, but there were people that 00:02:47.408 --> 00:02:49.048 were actively looking the other direction. 00:02:50.008 --> 00:02:53.253 And they were avoiding eye contact, and it was like my appearance was somehow 00:02:53.253 --> 00:02:55.253 contagious or it was definitely offensive. 00:02:55.853 --> 00:02:58.293 Cashiers would look down at the register and waiters would seem 00:02:58.293 --> 00:02:59.373 to focus on their notepads. 00:02:59.673 --> 00:03:02.633 And even my own friends seemed a little bit more uncomfortable 00:03:02.853 --> 00:03:06.753 and it was, it seemed like normal conversations were much shorter. 00:03:08.178 --> 00:03:10.928 For three weeks, I experienced the world as somebody who looked 00:03:10.928 --> 00:03:13.208 different, less socially acceptable. 00:03:13.668 --> 00:03:16.248 And it changed everything about how I moved through the world. 00:03:16.348 --> 00:03:20.658 And I can still think about that now and I can feel the feelings because 00:03:20.858 --> 00:03:24.178 I started to become less social and a little less likely to go out. 00:03:24.718 --> 00:03:30.178 It wasn't as important to me, which led to a little less confidence in conversations. 00:03:30.278 --> 00:03:33.778 And even though I knew the scabs were temporary and people around 00:03:33.778 --> 00:03:36.378 me did as well, or at least that's what I had communicated to them. 00:03:37.178 --> 00:03:38.838 And I also knew that this was the right thing to do. 00:03:38.898 --> 00:03:41.998 It was gonna lead to new skin, healthy new skin, but the way that people 00:03:41.998 --> 00:03:46.358 treated me made me feel fundamentally different about myself so here we 00:03:46.358 --> 00:03:51.798 are almost 15 years later and I just completed the treatment once again. 00:03:51.978 --> 00:03:54.718 Now it was with a new formulation that's supposed to work 00:03:54.718 --> 00:03:55.958 faster, and it really did. 00:03:56.578 --> 00:04:01.328 And even though I'm generally a pretty secure person, I did notice a lot 00:04:01.328 --> 00:04:03.008 of familiar feelings that crep in. 00:04:03.938 --> 00:04:06.663 Anxiety about how I'll look, worry about how people will react. 00:04:06.963 --> 00:04:09.043 And a part of me wanted to just hide until it was over. 00:04:09.163 --> 00:04:13.043 I was still seeing clients in real time and I had a copy and paste that just 00:04:13.043 --> 00:04:14.163 gave 'em a little bit of a heads up. 00:04:14.283 --> 00:04:17.123 'cause I didn't wanna take the time and therapy to explain 00:04:17.393 --> 00:04:18.283 what they were gonna see. 00:04:18.283 --> 00:04:21.483 But there was about a week this time where it looked like I was just 00:04:21.833 --> 00:04:24.443 very, very red and puffy and burned. 00:04:24.503 --> 00:04:28.853 And now I think I've got that luxurious skin again for who knows how long 00:04:28.853 --> 00:04:29.693 until I have to go through it again. 00:04:31.083 --> 00:04:35.743 But that experience before, and even the feelings of doing it again 00:04:36.063 --> 00:04:39.943 recently taught me something really profound about the relationship between 00:04:39.943 --> 00:04:43.623 how we look and how others treat us and how we feel about ourselves. 00:04:43.736 --> 00:04:44.616 Here's the crazy part. 00:04:44.616 --> 00:04:48.056 What if I told you that sometimes this relationship works in reverse? 00:04:48.206 --> 00:04:52.936 What if, how we think we look is actually more powerful than how we actually look? 00:04:54.656 --> 00:04:55.446 We're gonna talk about. 00:05:06.588 --> 00:05:09.718 Welcome to the Virtual Couch Presents, and whether you are hearing 00:05:09.718 --> 00:05:12.398 this on the Virtual Couch Podcast or the Waking Up to Narcissism 00:05:12.398 --> 00:05:14.078 podcast, I'm so glad you're here. 00:05:14.773 --> 00:05:15.773 My name is Tony Overbay. 00:05:15.793 --> 00:05:18.153 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified. 00:05:18.153 --> 00:05:20.113 Mindful, have a coach, writer, speaker, husband, father in four. 00:05:20.493 --> 00:05:25.033 And today we are diving into one of the most fascinating experiments in 00:05:25.033 --> 00:05:27.473 psychology, the Dartmouth scar study. 00:05:27.733 --> 00:05:31.593 And this is where researchers discovered that believing you have a visible flaw 00:05:31.893 --> 00:05:34.113 can be more powerful than actually having. 00:05:35.373 --> 00:05:38.873 So my experience with these actinic keratosis gave me a real world 00:05:38.873 --> 00:05:43.113 lesson in how visible differences affect our social interactions 00:05:43.653 --> 00:05:45.033 and how we feel about ourselves. 00:05:45.903 --> 00:05:49.963 But now imagine though, if the reactions that I experienced, the averted 00:05:49.963 --> 00:05:54.433 gazes, the, the discomfort that change behavior of others, that did happen. 00:05:55.133 --> 00:05:58.793 But imagine if that happened even when there was nothing actually 00:05:58.793 --> 00:06:00.633 different or wrong with how I looked. 00:06:00.743 --> 00:06:02.073 What if that was just all in my head? 00:06:02.873 --> 00:06:07.643 Imagine if the scar was invisible to everyone but me, but I 00:06:07.643 --> 00:06:10.683 still experienced all of the discrimination and the judgment. 00:06:11.483 --> 00:06:14.983 That's exactly what happened in this groundbreaking 1980 study 00:06:15.363 --> 00:06:18.183 at Dartmouth College and what it revealed about the human mind. 00:06:18.463 --> 00:06:21.843 You're not gonna be able to unhear what you are about to hear, and it will change 00:06:21.843 --> 00:06:23.283 the way of how you think about belief. 00:06:24.148 --> 00:06:28.433 Perception, but more importantly, what we're gonna dig so deep into today is 00:06:28.733 --> 00:06:34.557 why it is so incredibly difficult for us to change our own mind or why we 00:06:34.697 --> 00:06:38.211 try to change the minds of others about things that matter the most to us. 00:06:39.906 --> 00:06:43.631 So before we do that, I would just love for you to right now, go to tony over 00:06:43.631 --> 00:06:45.671 bay.com and sign up for my newsletter. 00:06:45.831 --> 00:06:50.051 I got a newsletter out this week and I have some really, really cool 00:06:50.051 --> 00:06:53.931 things that are happening and I want to let you all know about that. 00:06:53.931 --> 00:06:55.691 The quickest way is gonna be through the newsletter. 00:06:55.711 --> 00:07:02.051 Go to tony over bay.com or follow me on Instagram at Virtual couch or 00:07:02.071 --> 00:07:07.171 TikTok at Virtual Couch or on YouTube at the Virtual Couch Podcast Network. 00:07:08.081 --> 00:07:10.461 On Facebook, Tony over Bay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. 00:07:10.881 --> 00:07:14.701 And some of you should have started hearing by now more 00:07:14.701 --> 00:07:15.981 information about the men's group. 00:07:16.001 --> 00:07:17.381 And if you haven't yet, it's coming. 00:07:17.401 --> 00:07:19.781 And if you still wanna be a part of the Men's Emotional Architects 00:07:19.781 --> 00:07:21.181 group, then reach out to me. 00:07:22.011 --> 00:07:28.651 And one of the most exciting things is a cruise that I am the, I don't, I just, 00:07:28.851 --> 00:07:30.451 I guessed with my friend Julie De Jesus. 00:07:31.161 --> 00:07:36.301 And it's a ICU living mental health cruise, which means we're gonna talk 00:07:36.301 --> 00:07:39.141 about positive things about mental health or I would love to answer all of 00:07:39.141 --> 00:07:42.261 your mental health questions and that is Sailing Outta the Port of Galveston. 00:07:42.281 --> 00:07:45.861 It is in, it is the end of January of next year, 2026. 00:07:46.521 --> 00:07:49.651 I'll have all the information in a link in the show notes or 00:07:49.661 --> 00:07:51.171 shoot me an email, . Come see me. 00:07:51.261 --> 00:07:56.081 If you find me on a boat and I have soft served chocolate ice cream in my hand or 00:07:56.081 --> 00:07:58.881 in my bowl, I probably would rather put it in a bowl than carry it around in my hand. 00:07:59.311 --> 00:08:01.961 I'll answer all your mental health questions and I love it. 00:08:02.161 --> 00:08:02.841 I love what I do. 00:08:02.961 --> 00:08:03.841 I would love to help you. 00:08:04.521 --> 00:08:07.216 If you are interested in working with me as a therapist, as a 00:08:07.216 --> 00:08:08.776 coach, then shoot me a note. 00:08:09.226 --> 00:08:11.416 Email me at contact@tonyoverbay.com. 00:08:11.556 --> 00:08:15.476 I really enjoy working with people that are familiar with my work or 00:08:15.476 --> 00:08:18.086 the things that I work on, whether you're an individual or a couple 00:08:18.546 --> 00:08:21.506 I am starting to create a little bit more space or availability. 00:08:22.041 --> 00:08:25.188 For some new people, and that would either be virtual wherever 00:08:25.188 --> 00:08:29.988 you live, or I have offices in the Mesa, Arizona area or up around the 00:08:29.988 --> 00:08:31.308 Rockland, Roseville, California area. 00:08:31.998 --> 00:08:34.748 Let's get to the nuts and bolts of today Show. 00:08:35.478 --> 00:08:38.078 Here's the setup for the Dartmouth Scar Experiment. 00:08:38.428 --> 00:08:39.198 It's 1980. 00:08:39.198 --> 00:08:43.918 There's a psychologist named Dr. Robert Cle and his colleague Angelo Reta. 00:08:43.918 --> 00:08:47.678 They conducted this experiment at Dartmouth College that would, I really 00:08:47.678 --> 00:08:50.398 think it fundamentally changes how we understand the relationship between our 00:08:50.398 --> 00:08:52.678 beliefs, our perceptions, and our reality. 00:08:53.338 --> 00:08:54.318 So here's how it worked. 00:08:54.918 --> 00:08:57.798 Students were told that they were participating in a study about 00:08:57.818 --> 00:09:01.278 how people with facial scars are treated in social interactions. 00:09:02.038 --> 00:09:04.818 The researchers brought in a professional makeup artist who applied 00:09:04.938 --> 00:09:09.018 a very realistic looking scar, a big one to each participant's face. 00:09:09.728 --> 00:09:12.268 The participants were then shown their reflection in a mirror so they 00:09:12.268 --> 00:09:15.508 could see exactly what they look like with this prominent facial defect. 00:09:15.928 --> 00:09:18.148 Here's where it just gets so interesting, the makeup artist. 00:09:18.698 --> 00:09:23.388 Then before they went out and interacted with others, said, Hey, I 00:09:23.388 --> 00:09:24.908 need to, uh, I need to touch that up. 00:09:25.208 --> 00:09:27.768 I need to add some setting powder to make sure that the scar looks 00:09:27.768 --> 00:09:30.808 realistic and wouldn't smudge during their upcoming social interactions. 00:09:31.108 --> 00:09:33.708 Now, what the participants didn't know, and I would imagine they're already 00:09:33.708 --> 00:09:36.108 thinking, oh my gosh, this is gonna be something they're, maybe their heart 00:09:36.108 --> 00:09:38.628 rate's elevating a little bit, that amygdala is about to get hijacked. 00:09:38.628 --> 00:09:42.068 So not maybe paying complete attention because when the 00:09:42.068 --> 00:09:43.588 makeup artist did this touchup. 00:09:44.298 --> 00:09:47.348 What they actually did was they were able to remove the scar entirely. 00:09:48.168 --> 00:09:50.988 Now, participant did not know that, so they left the room believing I have 00:09:50.988 --> 00:09:55.348 this hideous scar on my face, this visible facial scar, when in reality 00:09:55.488 --> 00:09:59.228 now they appeared completely normal to everybody that they encountered. 00:09:59.728 --> 00:10:04.758 So the results were fascinating, striking heartbreaking because the participants who 00:10:05.038 --> 00:10:08.358 believed that they had the scars reported that people treated them differently. 00:10:09.813 --> 00:10:13.833 But the ones that thought they had scars, they perceived stares, 00:10:14.103 --> 00:10:17.633 awkward interactions, and what they interpreted as very discriminatory 00:10:17.873 --> 00:10:19.233 behavior, they felt judged. 00:10:19.263 --> 00:10:23.193 They reported feeling marginalized, and they responded to what they saw as 00:10:23.383 --> 00:10:27.233 very clear evidence of others' negative reactions to their hideous appearance. 00:10:28.628 --> 00:10:29.588 Remember there was no scar. 00:10:30.208 --> 00:10:32.868 The people that they interacted with saw completely normal faces. 00:10:33.048 --> 00:10:35.868 So this discrimination that they experienced, it existed 00:10:36.268 --> 00:10:38.108 entirely in their perception. 00:10:38.608 --> 00:10:41.708 And I think this experiment reveals something so profound 00:10:41.798 --> 00:10:43.668 about human behavior, psychology. 00:10:44.288 --> 00:10:48.068 Our beliefs about ourselves and our circumstances can be so powerful that 00:10:48.068 --> 00:10:49.388 they literally shape our reality. 00:10:50.028 --> 00:10:51.878 They change the inner landscape of our mind. 00:10:52.793 --> 00:10:55.653 The participants didn't just think that they were being treated differently. 00:10:55.683 --> 00:10:59.253 They genuinely experienced different treatment because their expectations 00:10:59.263 --> 00:11:03.493 influenced how they interpreted very neutral or ambiguous social cues. 00:11:04.253 --> 00:11:08.113 And we did a live q and a episode that I released a few days ago with Sydney, 00:11:08.493 --> 00:11:11.653 and we covered this study in more detail and we interacted with a lot of the 00:11:11.653 --> 00:11:13.293 people that were there on the live. 00:11:14.113 --> 00:11:17.293 But we also discussed how to best navigate a faith journey. 00:11:17.413 --> 00:11:19.333 I talked in more detail about some additional details of 00:11:19.333 --> 00:11:20.413 this darkness scar study. 00:11:21.113 --> 00:11:24.883 So if you wanna hear more about this we go into a completely different direction 00:11:24.883 --> 00:11:26.963 than where I'm going in today's episode. 00:11:27.763 --> 00:11:30.073 Think about this for a minute . These weren't people who were 00:11:30.073 --> 00:11:31.313 lying or making things up. 00:11:31.843 --> 00:11:35.683 These people who thought they went out into the world , with this 00:11:35.683 --> 00:11:37.283 huge noticeable scar on their face. 00:11:38.003 --> 00:11:40.693 They were experiencing their reality through the lens of their 00:11:40.693 --> 00:11:43.173 beliefs about what was happening to them in very real time. 00:11:44.053 --> 00:11:47.733 I recently heard somebody say that your unconscious mind is always 00:11:47.803 --> 00:11:49.533 listening and it believes you. 00:11:50.433 --> 00:11:52.093 So be kind in how you talk to yourself. 00:11:52.093 --> 00:11:55.923 Basically, they were asking, would you talk to a friend the way that 00:11:55.923 --> 00:11:56.883 you're talking to yourself now? 00:11:56.883 --> 00:11:57.523 Hopefully, no. 00:11:57.623 --> 00:12:00.403 But if you say yes, then you might wanna talk to a professional about that. 00:12:01.143 --> 00:12:04.883 And I think that this experiment shows a very similar version of this, if 00:12:05.083 --> 00:12:07.483 I believe it, it is, or the cliche. 00:12:07.483 --> 00:12:12.003 This your perception truly is your reality, even though if it's to your 00:12:12.003 --> 00:12:14.163 detriment or the detriment of a loved one. 00:12:15.088 --> 00:12:17.828 Now, let's go back into the world of emotional immaturity. 00:12:17.928 --> 00:12:22.028 One of my favorites, it's, there's a concept there where I share if 00:12:22.148 --> 00:12:23.948 I believe it, it must be true. 00:12:24.748 --> 00:12:26.848 You don't care about me, says a well-meaning, but 00:12:27.048 --> 00:12:28.088 insecure or immature partner. 00:12:28.228 --> 00:12:31.368 So therefore, it is true even if your partner is putting on a masterclass 00:12:31.428 --> 00:12:36.838 of caring for you, but if you don't feel it if that's not how you are 00:12:36.838 --> 00:12:40.558 perceiving their efforts, then what they're doing is wrong and bad, even 00:12:40.558 --> 00:12:42.398 though most likely you're not even sure. 00:12:43.323 --> 00:12:47.653 What it would take to, to make you believe that they cared, but that's how powerful 00:12:47.653 --> 00:12:52.413 perception can be without the ability to think critically, to self confront, 00:12:52.593 --> 00:12:56.413 to bring some personal responsibility into the mix with maybe even a dash 00:12:56.413 --> 00:12:59.753 of humility that I may actually not know what I don't know, that I might 00:13:00.153 --> 00:13:02.993 actually not know how to get the help necessary to improve my situation. 00:13:03.293 --> 00:13:04.383 Okay, but where was I? 00:13:04.483 --> 00:13:07.573 Your perception is your reality, even if it is to your detriment 00:13:07.573 --> 00:13:08.613 or the detriment of a loved one. 00:13:08.693 --> 00:13:10.093 A relationship and ideology. 00:13:10.133 --> 00:13:12.973 A belief system, a religious community, and experience. 00:13:13.153 --> 00:13:15.133 You name it, we are. 00:13:16.673 --> 00:13:20.253 So hardwired to create meaning, to predict what comes next 00:13:20.433 --> 00:13:22.133 to, to try and seek certainty. 00:13:22.213 --> 00:13:25.653 I want to know if this will work, if this person cares, because then I'll put forth 00:13:25.653 --> 00:13:27.853 effort and we want to avoid discomfort. 00:13:28.393 --> 00:13:31.693 And this shows how powerful that the mind can be, both in 00:13:31.693 --> 00:13:33.133 harmful ways and in helpful ones. 00:13:33.773 --> 00:13:37.453 I will never forget the day that I drove home in a mini Cooper. 00:13:38.198 --> 00:13:40.018 All of a sudden they were everywhere. 00:13:40.518 --> 00:13:43.538 And you also have an awkward club nod that you nod or wave 00:13:43.538 --> 00:13:44.458 to other mini Cooper owners. 00:13:44.458 --> 00:13:46.078 Just like when I had a Jeep at one point. 00:13:47.008 --> 00:13:48.668 All of a sudden though, these mini coopers were everywhere. 00:13:49.408 --> 00:13:51.008 Or I think about this often. 00:13:51.348 --> 00:13:55.648 If you buy your, probably your 15th fancy new insulated water bottle 00:13:55.648 --> 00:13:58.408 over the last few years, now all of a sudden you notice, oh my gosh, that 00:13:58.408 --> 00:13:59.768 everybody has this exact same one. 00:14:00.378 --> 00:14:02.148 Welcome to the world of confirmation bias. 00:14:02.158 --> 00:14:02.508 Right. 00:14:03.713 --> 00:14:06.773 And I literally said the word right, because I promise that you will 00:14:06.773 --> 00:14:09.533 now hear that everywhere people ending sentences with, right. 00:14:10.113 --> 00:14:13.373 And, and if you don't really think it's right, it gets to be a little bit odd. 00:14:14.073 --> 00:14:17.253 As a couple's therapist, I remember one of the first couples that 00:14:17.253 --> 00:14:21.053 just did this so much where the guy might, and I'm saying this. 00:14:21.883 --> 00:14:25.503 Purely humorously because they, he didn't say this, but it was as if 00:14:25.503 --> 00:14:30.793 he was saying, you know, how, the guy is gonna be the one who is the 00:14:30.953 --> 00:14:32.353 smartest in a relationship, right? 00:14:33.013 --> 00:14:36.313 And so it says it so casually that if I, if I keep going along, then it 00:14:36.313 --> 00:14:39.193 says, if I agreed and I found myself wanting to say, I mean not, not 00:14:39.313 --> 00:14:39.953 actually, tell me more about that. 00:14:40.013 --> 00:14:41.303 And he would say okay. 00:14:41.303 --> 00:14:42.263 It's not that big of a deal. 00:14:42.283 --> 00:14:44.803 So it was this verbal tick that this person said. 00:14:44.803 --> 00:14:49.403 And now I hear it everywhere, . I call this a verbal crutch and it's one of 00:14:49.403 --> 00:14:51.083 the current verbal crutches being used. 00:14:51.343 --> 00:14:52.383 I dunno, does that make sense? 00:14:53.073 --> 00:14:54.263 Which does that make sense? 00:14:54.403 --> 00:14:57.383 Is another one that I am beginning to hear everywhere. 00:14:58.363 --> 00:15:02.713 We are also very deep into the like generation, like the number of like times 00:15:02.713 --> 00:15:06.513 that I like edit out the word, like with a couple of the guests that I've like 00:15:06.513 --> 00:15:08.273 had on recently is like crazy, right? 00:15:08.503 --> 00:15:09.193 Does that make sense? 00:15:09.973 --> 00:15:12.778 You are welcome, or I apologize for giving you that particular version 00:15:12.778 --> 00:15:16.178 of confirmation bias because now I would imagine you are going to 00:15:16.178 --> 00:15:20.218 hear the word right and like, and does that make sense a lot today? 00:15:20.318 --> 00:15:23.858 As a matter of fact, someone please email me and let me know that it validate me. 00:15:23.858 --> 00:15:24.058 Please. 00:15:24.058 --> 00:15:25.058 That that is what happened. 00:15:25.798 --> 00:15:27.178 But what is confirmation bias? 00:15:27.508 --> 00:15:31.068 It's the psychological mechanism that makes the scar experiment even possible. 00:15:31.988 --> 00:15:35.633 Confirmation bias is our tendency to seek out, interpret and 00:15:35.873 --> 00:15:39.833 remember information in ways that confirms our preexisting beliefs. 00:15:40.513 --> 00:15:44.803 It's basically like having a very selective research assistant that is with 00:15:44.803 --> 00:15:48.563 you at all times going around in your brain who only brings you evidence that 00:15:48.563 --> 00:15:49.803 supports what you already think is true. 00:15:50.403 --> 00:15:51.163 'cause that does feel better. 00:15:51.963 --> 00:15:54.783 Now, this is not about being stubborn necessarily. 00:15:54.973 --> 00:15:57.823 It's about how our minds fundamentally process information. 00:15:57.973 --> 00:16:01.063 When we encounter new information, we typically don't 00:16:01.063 --> 00:16:02.303 tend to evaluate it neutrally. 00:16:02.603 --> 00:16:04.703 We run it through the filter of what we already believe. 00:16:05.553 --> 00:16:07.573 And let me tell you about the experiment that really put 00:16:07.573 --> 00:16:08.613 confirmation bias on the map. 00:16:09.073 --> 00:16:12.773 And 1960s, there was a psychologist named Peter Watson and he wanted to 00:16:12.773 --> 00:16:15.893 understand how people test their beliefs and assumptions and what he discovered. 00:16:16.933 --> 00:16:20.873 It just seems so simple when you hear this, and I would imagine with our own 00:16:20.873 --> 00:16:22.033 brain trying to make sense of things. 00:16:22.533 --> 00:16:23.313 Here's how it worked. 00:16:23.453 --> 00:16:26.473 Watson would give participants a sequence of three numbers, and 00:16:26.473 --> 00:16:31.233 it started with 2, 4, 6, and tell them that this sequence followed a 00:16:31.433 --> 00:16:32.913 specific rule that he had in mind. 00:16:33.628 --> 00:16:37.298 Their job was to figure out what that rule was by proposing other 00:16:37.618 --> 00:16:38.458 sequences of three numbers. 00:16:38.678 --> 00:16:41.978 So for each sequence they suggested Wassam would then tell them whether 00:16:41.978 --> 00:16:43.818 it followed his rule or it did not. 00:16:43.958 --> 00:16:45.898 So it sounds kind of simple, right? 00:16:46.368 --> 00:16:47.058 Does that make sense? 00:16:47.478 --> 00:16:48.618 Here's what almost everybody did. 00:16:48.618 --> 00:16:52.168 They looked at 2, 4, 6, and immediately formed a hypothesis. 00:16:52.308 --> 00:16:52.728 Oh, okay. 00:16:53.398 --> 00:16:55.488 Must be even numbers increasing by two. 00:16:56.138 --> 00:16:56.648 Makes sense. 00:16:57.203 --> 00:16:59.863 So then they would start testing by letting 'em know hey 00:16:59.963 --> 00:17:04.923 I think is the sequence 4, 8, 10 or 6, 8, 12 or 20, 22, 24. 00:17:05.633 --> 00:17:08.213 And every time Watson would say, yeah, that follows the rule. 00:17:08.753 --> 00:17:12.253 So after getting several confirmations, most participants felt very confident 00:17:12.253 --> 00:17:13.813 and they announced their hypothesis. 00:17:13.813 --> 00:17:17.733 The rule is even numbers, and it increases by two. 00:17:18.533 --> 00:17:24.763 So they started testing sequences like 8, 10, 12, or 12, 14, 16, or 20, 22, 24. 00:17:25.383 --> 00:17:29.243 , And every time when they asked Watson, he would say, yes, that follows the rule. 00:17:29.703 --> 00:17:31.923 So after getting several confirmations, then most 00:17:31.923 --> 00:17:33.443 participants felt very confident. 00:17:33.443 --> 00:17:34.643 They announced their hypothesis. 00:17:35.103 --> 00:17:38.683 The rule is even numbers increasing by two, and they were wrong. 00:17:39.793 --> 00:17:41.653 The actual rule was so much simpler. 00:17:42.033 --> 00:17:44.173 Any three numbers in ascending order, that's it. 00:17:44.593 --> 00:17:46.533 The sequence 1 3 17 would've worked. 00:17:46.593 --> 00:17:50.573 So would 5, 6, 100, but almost no one discovered this because they 00:17:50.573 --> 00:17:53.333 only tested the sequences that confirmed their initial as assumption. 00:17:53.953 --> 00:17:55.063 And here's kinda the kicker. 00:17:55.063 --> 00:17:58.223 If they had tried just one sequence that challenged their hypothesis, so 00:17:58.223 --> 00:18:03.103 if they would've just said let's do a rule out like 1, 3, 5, or 10, 11, 12. 00:18:04.303 --> 00:18:07.313 They would've also gotten a yes from Watson and then realized, 00:18:07.413 --> 00:18:12.473 oh, my, my ascending number by two rule is far too narrow. 00:18:13.213 --> 00:18:15.273 But they didn't want to risk being wrong. 00:18:15.453 --> 00:18:19.063 It was if they thought they were gonna get another experiment where they're gonna 00:18:19.063 --> 00:18:20.303 get shocked for saying the wrong answer. 00:18:20.363 --> 00:18:22.743 So they only tested examples that they expected to work. 00:18:22.973 --> 00:18:24.543 This is confirmation bias in action. 00:18:25.213 --> 00:18:27.053 We don't naturally try to prove ourselves wrong. 00:18:27.773 --> 00:18:29.953 We try to prove ourselves right, and you know what? 00:18:30.113 --> 00:18:33.113 I get it because it is difficult to be wrong. 00:18:33.293 --> 00:18:36.313 It can feel really awkward if you're not good at being wrong. 00:18:37.013 --> 00:18:39.793 It doesn't always feel good to have your assumptions challenged. 00:18:39.933 --> 00:18:45.273 It causes us to react, not necessarily respond, we immediately go to fight or 00:18:45.273 --> 00:18:48.433 flight mode, but here's what makes this really relevant to our daily lives. 00:18:49.193 --> 00:18:52.493 We do the same thing with our beliefs about politics, religion, 00:18:52.493 --> 00:18:54.133 relationships, parenting, you name it. 00:18:54.593 --> 00:18:57.733 We look for evidence that confirms what we already think and we avoid 00:18:57.733 --> 00:18:59.093 information that might challenge us. 00:18:59.863 --> 00:19:02.403 So think about it when was the last time that you actively sought out 00:19:02.403 --> 00:19:05.323 information that fully contradicted something that you believed in strongly? 00:19:05.953 --> 00:19:08.963 When did you last read an article or watch a video from somebody whose 00:19:08.963 --> 00:19:10.243 political view is opposed to yours? 00:19:10.263 --> 00:19:13.963 Not to argue with them, but to genuinely test your own assumptions 00:19:14.463 --> 00:19:16.163 and see what feelings came up for you. 00:19:17.053 --> 00:19:19.263 It's not that we're necessarily stupid or stubborn. 00:19:19.473 --> 00:19:19.983 We're human. 00:19:20.603 --> 00:19:23.903 Our brains are designed to protect our existing beliefs, especially 00:19:23.903 --> 00:19:27.383 when those beliefs are tied to our identity or our community. 00:19:28.633 --> 00:19:34.213 Our sense of safety in the world, in our community, in our family system, and just 00:19:34.213 --> 00:19:37.693 like those participants in Washington Study who were so close to the truth but 00:19:37.693 --> 00:19:41.883 missed it because they were afraid to test their own assumptions, we might be missing 00:19:41.953 --> 00:19:45.843 very important insights about ourselves and the world because we are more 00:19:45.843 --> 00:19:49.483 comfortable confirming what we already believe than discovering that we may. 00:19:50.493 --> 00:19:51.973 Actually not have the right information. 00:19:52.473 --> 00:19:54.693 The beautiful thing is once you understand this tendency, 00:19:54.693 --> 00:19:55.573 you can start to work with it. 00:19:55.646 --> 00:19:59.646 You do not need years to begin to think critically or look at yourself. 00:20:00.306 --> 00:20:05.176 You can begin to ask yourself, what would I need to see if I were if changing 00:20:05.236 --> 00:20:06.816 my mind about this was even possible? 00:20:07.246 --> 00:20:09.576 What would I need to actually do and I can seek that out 00:20:09.596 --> 00:20:11.536 to test my own belief system? 00:20:12.156 --> 00:20:14.216 Or what if the opposite of what I believe is true? 00:20:14.286 --> 00:20:16.336 What if it was just humor yourself? 00:20:17.366 --> 00:20:19.456 They're not comfortable questions, but they're the kinds of 00:20:19.616 --> 00:20:20.776 questions that lead to growth. 00:20:21.196 --> 00:20:23.736 It might lead to a little more understanding, and 00:20:24.016 --> 00:20:25.456 I would dare say wisdom. 00:20:26.256 --> 00:20:28.366 Today I wanna pepper you with a real world example. 00:20:28.466 --> 00:20:31.636 Imagine a husband whose wife says that she is feeling depressed 00:20:31.636 --> 00:20:32.636 and she wants to go back to work. 00:20:33.306 --> 00:20:36.486 She believes having a sense of purpose and adult interaction outside the home 00:20:36.976 --> 00:20:40.686 might help her mental health and make her a better mom when she's with the kids. 00:20:40.786 --> 00:20:43.646 Now, the husband's initial reaction is 2, 4, 6. 00:20:43.666 --> 00:20:45.606 His hypothesis becomes, stay at home. 00:20:45.636 --> 00:20:47.246 Moms are better for children and families, period. 00:20:47.626 --> 00:20:52.046 But here's what he's not even willing to admit even to himself that it, if 00:20:52.046 --> 00:20:53.726 his wife goes back to work, he'll. 00:20:54.701 --> 00:20:57.471 More than likely need to do more around the house, pick up kids from daycare, 00:20:58.021 --> 00:21:01.871 help with dinner prep, maybe share the mental load of family management, help 00:21:01.871 --> 00:21:04.351 out a little bit more with the laundry at night and fold clothes together. 00:21:04.691 --> 00:21:05.591 And that scares him. 00:21:06.121 --> 00:21:10.101 But instead of examining that fear, he focuses on proving his hypothesis. 00:21:10.101 --> 00:21:10.621 So what does he do? 00:21:10.931 --> 00:21:13.421 Just like Watson's participants, he starts looking for evidence 00:21:13.501 --> 00:21:14.461 that confirms his belief. 00:21:14.841 --> 00:21:17.101 He goes around and he asks coworkers and friends, Hey, did your mom 00:21:17.101 --> 00:21:18.181 stay home when you were a kid? 00:21:18.181 --> 00:21:18.861 How'd that work out? 00:21:19.161 --> 00:21:21.581 And when somebody says, oh yeah, my mom stayed at home and 00:21:21.671 --> 00:21:22.781 leave me, I turned out great. 00:21:23.416 --> 00:21:24.421 He mentally files that. 00:21:24.761 --> 00:21:25.141 Got it. 00:21:25.141 --> 00:21:25.941 There's a good example. 00:21:26.011 --> 00:21:27.221 I'll file that as confirmation. 00:21:27.681 --> 00:21:27.901 Now. 00:21:27.901 --> 00:21:31.061 When another colleague mentions, actually my mom worked and it 00:21:31.061 --> 00:21:32.401 taught me more independence. 00:21:32.401 --> 00:21:35.921 Plus she was, seemed to be happier and more engaged when she was at home, and 00:21:35.941 --> 00:21:37.441 she seemed more interactive with my dad. 00:21:37.441 --> 00:21:39.611 He seemed genuinely curious about her work life. 00:21:40.431 --> 00:21:43.971 So when he heard that this person, he dismissed it, well, I mean, every family's 00:21:43.971 --> 00:21:46.931 different or, I mean, I guess that worked for you guys, but that, that's not what 00:21:46.931 --> 00:21:47.931 I'm, that's not what I'm talking about. 00:21:48.876 --> 00:21:52.081 He starts googling things like benefits of stay at home moms and 00:21:52.241 --> 00:21:53.681 children of working mother's problems. 00:21:54.361 --> 00:21:58.261 Notice he's not searching effects of maternal employment on children or stay 00:21:58.281 --> 00:22:00.101 at home versus working mother's research. 00:22:00.451 --> 00:22:03.461 He's searching for confirmation, not for information. 00:22:04.051 --> 00:22:07.471 He finds some blog posts from some very conservating parenting websites and a few 00:22:07.471 --> 00:22:11.151 studies that suggest children of stay at home mothers have slightly better outcomes 00:22:11.151 --> 00:22:15.111 in certain areas, and he screenshots these and he sends them to his wife as evidence. 00:22:15.931 --> 00:22:20.271 But when she shows him peer reviewed research about how maternal employment 00:22:20.341 --> 00:22:22.521 can actually benefit children's development and how women with a 00:22:22.521 --> 00:22:25.721 sense of purpose outside the home often experience better mental health 00:22:25.741 --> 00:22:29.681 and relationship satisfaction, he immediately finds ways to dismiss it. 00:22:29.931 --> 00:22:31.811 We literally had these sessions in my office. 00:22:32.591 --> 00:22:35.691 He said things like, well, those studies are probably biased, or they don't account 00:22:35.691 --> 00:22:39.411 for our specific situation, or he doesn't really realize who you are as a mom. 00:22:39.431 --> 00:22:41.581 And I'm worried that if you go out in the workforce, you're, that's 00:22:41.581 --> 00:22:42.061 gonna be really hard for you. 00:22:42.861 --> 00:22:45.441 He talks to his father who says, well, your mom stayed at home with 00:22:45.441 --> 00:22:46.841 you kids and you guys turned out fine. 00:22:46.921 --> 00:22:51.191 Confirmation talks to the guy at church who he talks to guys at church who 00:22:51.191 --> 00:22:53.951 praised their wives for sacrificing to stay home more confirmation. 00:22:54.491 --> 00:22:56.631 But when his wife's friend mentions that going back to work actually 00:22:56.631 --> 00:22:58.991 saved her marriage because she felt more fulfilled and present when she 00:22:58.991 --> 00:23:02.111 was at home, he thinks that's kind of different, though she probably wasn't 00:23:02.121 --> 00:23:03.821 as naturally maternal as my wife. 00:23:04.331 --> 00:23:05.311 Here's the kicker though. 00:23:05.491 --> 00:23:06.951 Now he never tested his hypothesis. 00:23:07.646 --> 00:23:11.106 He never asked what would I need to see to believe that my wife working 00:23:11.106 --> 00:23:12.586 might actually be good for our family. 00:23:13.166 --> 00:23:16.746 He never genuinely explored What if my wife being fulfilled and mentally healthy 00:23:16.806 --> 00:23:19.346 is more important for our children than having her physically present 00:23:19.406 --> 00:23:21.266 but depressed really for my benefit. 00:23:22.006 --> 00:23:27.666 And I hope you are wanting me to say, or how about just ask her, which. 00:23:28.431 --> 00:23:32.331 He did, but he was even asking her, I did an episode on curiosity a few 00:23:32.331 --> 00:23:36.131 weeks ago where he would ask her to check a box or ask her so that he 00:23:36.131 --> 00:23:38.731 could then get more data as an attack surface, and then tell her where she's 00:23:38.731 --> 00:23:40.331 wrong, not with genuine curiosity. 00:23:41.261 --> 00:23:47.131 So just like Watson's participants who kept testing 8, 10, 12 and 12 14 16, 00:23:47.131 --> 00:23:51.531 instead of trying 1 3, 5, this husband keeps seeking the same type of confirming 00:23:51.651 --> 00:23:53.971 evidence instead of genuinely testing whether his assumption might be wrong. 00:23:54.951 --> 00:23:59.901 There are a lot of times where this air quote works because the person in 00:23:59.901 --> 00:24:04.181 the position that this husband is in is essentially showing that, Hey, I'm 00:24:04.181 --> 00:24:08.341 gonna grind you down until you do what I say, and then I will feel better. 00:24:08.581 --> 00:24:09.941 I will tell you that isn't this better? 00:24:10.041 --> 00:24:12.701 And by that time, because of the relationship dynamic we have, most 00:24:12.701 --> 00:24:14.181 likely you'll say, Uhhuh, sure. 00:24:14.491 --> 00:24:18.861 Because you just tried again to find your voice and express 00:24:19.101 --> 00:24:20.261 yourself and it didn't work. 00:24:20.561 --> 00:24:23.261 And by the time it, and if you make it to couples therapy. 00:24:24.691 --> 00:24:27.231 You finally expressed that you haven't felt seen or heard or 00:24:27.231 --> 00:24:30.551 understood, and when he then says, well, why haven't you told me? 00:24:30.821 --> 00:24:34.111 This is the part where I love raising my hand and saying, I can take this 00:24:34.111 --> 00:24:37.508 one, and laying out a scenario like this one, back to this Wasson study. 00:24:37.968 --> 00:24:40.828 So that real rule, the ascending numbers and this scenario that I'm 00:24:40.828 --> 00:24:41.908 talking about might be something like. 00:24:42.613 --> 00:24:44.973 Children thrive when their parents are mentally healthy, fulfilled, 00:24:44.973 --> 00:24:47.733 and present when they're together, regardless of employment status. 00:24:47.913 --> 00:24:50.773 But he'll never discover that rule because he is afraid to test sequences 00:24:50.773 --> 00:24:52.773 that might disprove his hypothesis. 00:24:53.273 --> 00:24:56.093 And part of the narrative that they're bringing into couples therapy is their 00:24:56.093 --> 00:25:00.253 husband has felt like they don't do anything around the house, but the husband 00:25:00.313 --> 00:25:01.933 in those scenarios has not been curious. 00:25:02.083 --> 00:25:03.373 They are just projecting. 00:25:03.373 --> 00:25:06.953 They're just telling, and that's one of the saddest parts in this scenario. 00:25:07.013 --> 00:25:10.353 His confirmation bias isn't just protecting his beliefs about parenting. 00:25:10.353 --> 00:25:13.353 It's protecting him from having to confront his own fears about 00:25:13.353 --> 00:25:14.913 increased responsibility and change. 00:25:15.023 --> 00:25:19.203 He's not wanting to even truly know who his wife is or explore. 00:25:20.153 --> 00:25:21.653 Why this is so uncomfortable for him. 00:25:22.313 --> 00:25:25.813 So instead of dealing with those fears directly, which could be an amazing 00:25:25.813 --> 00:25:29.253 opportunity for the two of them to connect and those are the types of things 00:25:29.253 --> 00:25:31.653 that, that we can explore in therapy. 00:25:32.603 --> 00:25:36.493 He's unconsciously recruiting research to avoid the real conversation that he needs 00:25:36.493 --> 00:25:37.973 to have with him, himself and his wife. 00:25:38.883 --> 00:25:42.133 This is why simply presenting facts to somebody rarely works. 00:25:43.848 --> 00:25:46.948 You will often hear so many versions of this, well, I just need to tell them 00:25:46.948 --> 00:25:50.208 this or, and I told them what I thought and they did not magically change 00:25:50.348 --> 00:25:51.768 all of their beliefs and their mind. 00:25:52.738 --> 00:25:56.158 His wife in the scenario could and actually did show him. 00:25:56.958 --> 00:25:57.358 A lot of studies. 00:25:57.478 --> 00:25:59.958 I was about to use narcissistic math and say dozens and dozens of studies. 00:26:00.138 --> 00:26:02.638 All the studies showing all the studies, but it was a couple of 00:26:02.638 --> 00:26:05.578 them about the benefits of maternal employment, but his brain has 00:26:05.578 --> 00:26:07.098 already decided those don't count. 00:26:07.558 --> 00:26:09.138 He is not looking for truth. 00:26:09.478 --> 00:26:12.738 He is looking for confirmation that his current belief system 00:26:12.918 --> 00:26:15.968 can stay intact and he can go back to doing what he wants to do. 00:26:16.768 --> 00:26:20.508 And then she will leave defeated and wondering, can I even 00:26:20.618 --> 00:26:21.668 stay in this relationship? 00:26:21.848 --> 00:26:23.748 And I don't feel good about myself. 00:26:23.888 --> 00:26:27.468 And I look at this as almost this drive by type of invalidation. 00:26:28.328 --> 00:26:31.628 She can put out an emotional bid, he can drive on by and nope, don't like it. 00:26:31.688 --> 00:26:32.548 And then keep on going. 00:26:32.648 --> 00:26:36.628 And then she's left to deal with, wow, I don't know what to do now. 00:26:37.428 --> 00:26:39.928 So let's dig a little deeper into the world of confirmation bias, 00:26:39.928 --> 00:26:43.148 because research in that area has identified a few different ways that 00:26:43.148 --> 00:26:45.148 confirmation bias then manifest. 00:26:45.168 --> 00:26:47.988 And I think these are important to understand so that you can 00:26:47.988 --> 00:26:49.108 now know what you didn't know. 00:26:50.038 --> 00:26:51.178 One is called selective search. 00:26:51.918 --> 00:26:55.178 We look for information that supports our beliefs and we avoid 00:26:55.178 --> 00:26:56.658 information that challenges it. 00:26:57.018 --> 00:26:59.738 Selective search, another one's called biased interpretation. 00:26:59.838 --> 00:27:03.178 We interpret in ambiguous information in ways that will 00:27:03.178 --> 00:27:04.138 support our existing beliefs. 00:27:04.138 --> 00:27:07.348 So we will take this lump of clay, of information and we can 00:27:07.348 --> 00:27:09.398 mold it to fit our belief system. 00:27:10.198 --> 00:27:11.208 There's selective memory. 00:27:11.588 --> 00:27:13.888 We remember information that confirms our beliefs better than 00:27:13.888 --> 00:27:14.848 information that contradicts them. 00:27:15.648 --> 00:27:19.188 We will go into a lot of detail about memory, selective memory, 00:27:19.308 --> 00:27:23.108 confabulated memory, and upcoming episode because memory is one of 00:27:23.108 --> 00:27:24.268 the most fascinating things ever. 00:27:24.988 --> 00:27:28.068 I can watch a couple, not remember what somebody else said two minutes before, 00:27:28.408 --> 00:27:30.988 but yet they are committed to a narrative of something that happened 10 years ago 00:27:31.248 --> 00:27:34.748 and cannot believe that their partner doesn't remember it the exact same way. 00:27:35.548 --> 00:27:37.288 There's also a concept called discounting. 00:27:37.288 --> 00:27:39.688 We find ways to completely dismiss or minimize information 00:27:39.688 --> 00:27:40.608 that contradicts our beliefs. 00:27:41.508 --> 00:27:44.048 And let's talk about these different types of confirmation bias. 00:27:44.458 --> 00:27:47.538 And a quick side note, when I am working with couples, there are five, 00:27:47.568 --> 00:27:52.218 what I call highly charged topics that people want to talk about, but don't 00:27:52.218 --> 00:27:53.298 have the tools to talk about them. 00:27:53.318 --> 00:27:56.218 So when they come into therapy, they don't quite put together the fact 00:27:56.218 --> 00:27:59.878 that they typically wanna talk about these very high charge topics, things 00:27:59.878 --> 00:28:03.278 that, that they did not succeed in talking about out in the wild. 00:28:03.748 --> 00:28:05.838 They wanna talk about these high charge topics without knowing how. 00:28:06.638 --> 00:28:09.928 This is why I think an unskilled couples therapist can easily get drawn 00:28:09.928 --> 00:28:11.688 into the role of referee or judge. 00:28:12.308 --> 00:28:13.728 You have to slow your role. 00:28:14.108 --> 00:28:18.448 You have to learn the right tools when talking about ordering food through the 00:28:18.448 --> 00:28:22.048 Taco Bell, drive-through or through a miscommunication of getting something from 00:28:22.048 --> 00:28:26.008 the grocery store because my five highly charged topics are drum roll please. 00:28:27.063 --> 00:28:30.253 Money, parenting, sex, religion, and politics. 00:28:30.753 --> 00:28:33.733 So today it's time to work in the world of the high charge topics 00:28:33.733 --> 00:28:37.373 because, well, they're everywhere, especially politics and in my world 00:28:37.393 --> 00:28:39.013 and in my practice currently religion. 00:28:39.353 --> 00:28:42.893 So I'm going to pepper in what some might believe to be these controversial 00:28:42.893 --> 00:28:44.253 topics are high charge topics. 00:28:44.833 --> 00:28:48.533 And of course your opinion or beliefs may and probably 00:28:48.533 --> 00:28:49.573 will differ from what I share. 00:28:49.793 --> 00:28:50.373 And if they do. 00:28:51.173 --> 00:28:54.023 Then there is truly no better time to literally practice what I'm 00:28:54.023 --> 00:28:57.423 preaching than in this very podcast episode if you run into contradictory 00:28:57.423 --> 00:28:58.983 information to what you believe. 00:28:59.523 --> 00:29:01.103 So back to the different types of confirmation bias. 00:29:01.103 --> 00:29:03.343 Let's go into selective search and I'll give you some details 00:29:04.133 --> 00:29:05.193 and I'll give you some examples. 00:29:05.336 --> 00:29:08.021 Let's talk about a political example of selective search. 00:29:08.361 --> 00:29:12.841 A very conservative person will only read or watch Fox News, wall Street 00:29:12.841 --> 00:29:16.481 Journal editorial pages and conservative blogs while actively avoiding things 00:29:16.481 --> 00:29:18.881 like CNN or NPR or any liberal source. 00:29:19.251 --> 00:29:23.861 Conversely, a liberal person only consumes CNN M-S-N-B-C, New York Times 00:29:23.861 --> 00:29:27.601 opinion section, and progressive Podcasts while avoiding all conservative media. 00:29:29.241 --> 00:29:33.341 In the health world, somebody who believes vaccines are dangerous only 00:29:33.341 --> 00:29:34.941 seeks out anti-vaccine websites. 00:29:34.941 --> 00:29:38.301 Testimonials from parents who blame vaccines for their children's autism and 00:29:38.301 --> 00:29:42.981 studies that suggest vaccine risks while avoiding CDC data, peer-reviewed medical 00:29:42.981 --> 00:29:46.771 journals or pro-vaccine information, or let's talk about a personal example. 00:29:46.851 --> 00:29:49.931 A person convinced their spouse does not appreciate them, only notices the 00:29:49.931 --> 00:29:53.811 times their partner seems distracted or doesn't say thank you, while unconsciously 00:29:53.971 --> 00:29:56.811 avoiding or not seeking out evidence of their partner's appreciation and love. 00:29:57.611 --> 00:30:02.291 I had a session recently where a husband has been accused of being on his phone 00:30:02.651 --> 00:30:06.011 a lot, and he has finally acknowledged that, okay, that has been the case. 00:30:06.811 --> 00:30:08.261 Fast forward a week in couples therapy. 00:30:08.651 --> 00:30:09.741 They had had a good week. 00:30:09.771 --> 00:30:13.411 They had gone on a date, they had done some fun things and she said, but he 00:30:13.411 --> 00:30:17.651 still pulled out his phone a couple times and he was very frustrated because 00:30:17.791 --> 00:30:19.851 he had worked very hard to be present. 00:30:20.231 --> 00:30:24.051 So she found the times or had hung onto those times when he pulled out his phone 00:30:24.071 --> 00:30:27.931 and did not look at that with genuine curiosity or appreciate the fact that 00:30:28.471 --> 00:30:30.651 he did not have his phone out as much. 00:30:30.671 --> 00:30:33.331 And I understand that too, in my beloved four pillars of a connected 00:30:33.331 --> 00:30:36.801 conversation that pillar, one , of giving someone the benefit of the doubt or. 00:30:37.489 --> 00:30:39.629 No one wakes up in the morning and thinks, how am I gonna hurt my partner? 00:30:39.969 --> 00:30:43.749 So this person had tried to do a lot of work on staying away from their 00:30:43.749 --> 00:30:45.469 phone, almost to their detriment. 00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:49.009 . So it's hard , because if someone is not assuming good intentions, then they are 00:30:49.009 --> 00:30:53.409 essentially looking for the things that will confirm what they're looking for. 00:30:53.959 --> 00:30:54.249 Seek. 00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:56.729 And you shall find, if you look hard enough, you are likely gonna find 00:30:56.729 --> 00:30:57.849 what it is that you are looking for. 00:30:58.549 --> 00:30:59.489 In each of these cases, 00:30:59.909 --> 00:31:02.839 they're actually curating their information diet to only include 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.559 sources that will tell them what they want to hear, and systematically 00:31:05.719 --> 00:31:07.639 avoiding information that will challenge their existing beliefs. 00:31:08.549 --> 00:31:11.269 The second type of confirmation bias called biased interpretation. 00:31:11.409 --> 00:31:12.949 Let me go down the political realm. 00:31:13.369 --> 00:31:15.149 Two people watch the same presidential debate. 00:31:15.349 --> 00:31:19.769 A supporter interprets the candidate's pause as thoughtful consideration while 00:31:19.909 --> 00:31:23.929 an opponent sees the exact same pause as not knowing the answer or being evasive. 00:31:24.349 --> 00:31:27.009 Or let's say that a presidential candidate runs on a platform of 00:31:27.009 --> 00:31:29.489 being open and transparent about some controversial information. 00:31:30.294 --> 00:31:33.504 Then after he's elected, he says, I cannot believe that people are still 00:31:33.504 --> 00:31:37.024 talking about wanting him to release the information, despite the fact that 00:31:37.024 --> 00:31:40.184 there are several instances of him saying prior to being elected that he 00:31:40.184 --> 00:31:41.784 has no problem releasing the information. 00:31:42.194 --> 00:31:45.224 Maybe even take it further, and somebody on his staff says that they 00:31:45.224 --> 00:31:47.984 have the information and they'll release it shortly, but then the 00:31:47.984 --> 00:31:49.184 information is no longer available. 00:31:49.984 --> 00:31:54.424 Somebody who is devoted to that candidate at all costs, even at the cost of 00:31:54.424 --> 00:31:55.944 their own personal values or integrity. 00:31:56.614 --> 00:31:59.474 Is gonna say he must have a good reason for not only completely changing 00:31:59.474 --> 00:32:01.954 his mind, not acknowledging that he had said that he would release the 00:32:01.954 --> 00:32:06.074 information but even must have good, a good reason why turning on his own base 00:32:06.134 --> 00:32:07.874 for calling them stupid and foolish. 00:32:08.334 --> 00:32:12.034 He must be doing this 40 d chess that I've heard of while somebody who doesn't 00:32:12.034 --> 00:32:16.624 support that candidate is gonna say he lied, he misrepresented the facts yet 00:32:16.624 --> 00:32:21.464 again, or he must be trying to hide what is ever what is in the information. 00:32:22.264 --> 00:32:23.234 It's gonna the world of sports. 00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:24.269 I know this one far too well. 00:32:24.349 --> 00:32:26.549 A referee makes a close call against your favorite team. 00:32:26.549 --> 00:32:28.069 You, you interpret this as evidence. 00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:28.869 It's rigged. 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:29.819 The ref is biased. 00:32:29.879 --> 00:32:31.419 The game is rigged against your team. 00:32:31.419 --> 00:32:31.979 Always is. 00:32:32.589 --> 00:32:35.059 While fans of the opposing team see it as that, not as a fair 00:32:35.059 --> 00:32:36.859 call or, well, it's about time. 00:32:36.859 --> 00:32:38.819 They've been favoring your guys' team the whole time. 00:32:39.769 --> 00:32:40.119 There. 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.889 There is no greater place to observe confirmation bias than with a fandom. 00:32:46.689 --> 00:32:47.639 Let's go relationships. 00:32:47.804 --> 00:32:50.934 Your partner comes home and says Hi, and a neutral tone. 00:32:51.274 --> 00:32:54.294 And if you're feeling insecure about yourself or the relationship, you might 00:32:54.294 --> 00:32:55.894 interpret this as coldness or distance. 00:32:56.354 --> 00:32:58.894 If you are good, if you're feeling secure, then you might interpret it 00:32:58.894 --> 00:33:02.174 as normal or maybe they're tired, or maybe they were distracted by work. 00:33:02.314 --> 00:33:03.974 And I might jump in with a little more curiosity. 00:33:04.774 --> 00:33:06.924 Let's touch on the high charge topic of religion. 00:33:07.164 --> 00:33:10.724 A person of faith experiences a coincidence, like thinking of an old 00:33:10.724 --> 00:33:12.814 friend right before they call as. 00:33:13.614 --> 00:33:16.774 A believer might interpret this as divine intervention or a spiritual 00:33:16.774 --> 00:33:20.814 connection while a skeptic sees it as simple probability playing out. 00:33:21.434 --> 00:33:24.814 So notice how the same exact information, a debate performance, a referee's call, 00:33:24.894 --> 00:33:27.694 a partner's greeting, gets filtered through the lens of what we already 00:33:27.694 --> 00:33:30.734 believe, and that leads us to see evidence for our existing beliefs, 00:33:30.764 --> 00:33:32.694 even in completely neutral events. 00:33:33.144 --> 00:33:34.274 . Next up is selective memory. 00:33:34.404 --> 00:33:35.594 Let's go into the world of parenting. 00:33:35.594 --> 00:33:37.834 Parents often remember their children's successes in cute little 00:33:37.834 --> 00:33:40.914 moments, far more vividly than tantrums and difficult phases. 00:33:40.984 --> 00:33:43.474 They might tell stories about how their toddler was such a good sleeper 00:33:43.474 --> 00:33:48.084 while forgetting months of sleep deprivation, or I was working with a 00:33:48.084 --> 00:33:52.684 financial planner as a client at one point, and he would often just talk 00:33:52.684 --> 00:33:55.964 about their, his successful trades, the years that he made a whole lot of money 00:33:56.384 --> 00:33:57.804 so much more clearly than his losses. 00:33:59.184 --> 00:34:01.624 I hear gamblers often say that they win more than they lose, 00:34:01.954 --> 00:34:03.544 which I don't think that's a thing. 00:34:04.044 --> 00:34:05.504 The casinos aren't built that way. 00:34:06.354 --> 00:34:10.034 They might recall this one time that they bought Apple stock before it jumped 00:34:10.034 --> 00:34:12.954 while forgetting the multiple times they lost money on similar sure thing, 00:34:12.954 --> 00:34:15.324 investments or the world of academics. 00:34:15.324 --> 00:34:17.804 The student who believes they were bad at math, well more easily remember the 00:34:17.804 --> 00:34:21.684 times they got wrong answers or felt confused while forgetting or downplaying 00:34:21.684 --> 00:34:24.284 the problems that they solve correctly or the concepts that they understood. 00:34:25.309 --> 00:34:28.389 After a breakup, people often remember either the mostly good times if they 00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:31.389 want to get back together, or mostly the bad times if they wanna move on 00:34:31.389 --> 00:34:34.069 while forgetting the more balanced, nuanced reality of the relationship. 00:34:34.999 --> 00:34:38.599 I processed many a person who was going through divorce, and it turns out that 00:34:38.939 --> 00:34:42.879 they knew 30 years ago from the moment that they were heading to the wedding. 00:34:43.189 --> 00:34:45.119 That everything since that time has been bad. 00:34:45.590 --> 00:34:49.090 Our brains act like these biased historians, carefully preserving 00:34:49.290 --> 00:34:52.090 memories that support our current beliefs, while allowing contradictory 00:34:52.250 --> 00:34:53.530 memories to fade away into the distance. 00:34:53.890 --> 00:34:57.450 Creating a personal archive that seems to prove we've always been right. 00:34:58.160 --> 00:35:00.765 And then, another kind of confirmation bias, discounting. 00:35:00.815 --> 00:35:02.165 We'll talk about climate change. 00:35:03.085 --> 00:35:06.165 Somebody skeptical of climate change might dismiss any scientific study 00:35:06.225 --> 00:35:08.685 by saying, yeah, scientists are just trying to get grant money, or the 00:35:08.685 --> 00:35:11.085 data's been manipulated rather than engaging with the actual evidence. 00:35:11.625 --> 00:35:12.645 Or a medical example. 00:35:12.685 --> 00:35:15.005 A person who believes in alternative medicine might discount their doctor's 00:35:15.005 --> 00:35:18.925 advice about needing surgery by saying, doctors just wanna make money. 00:35:19.105 --> 00:35:21.565 Or Western medicine only treats symptoms, not the root causes. 00:35:21.565 --> 00:35:24.285 And while there might be some truth in that, it's not that 00:35:24.285 --> 00:35:26.485 black or white or all or nothing. 00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:29.630 Or let's talk about , a personal growth example. 00:35:29.650 --> 00:35:32.176 So somebody receives feedback that they interrupt people frequently 00:35:32.406 --> 00:35:35.136 instead of considering if this might be true, they discount it by thinking, 00:35:35.476 --> 00:35:36.656 Hey, you're just too sensitive. 00:35:36.716 --> 00:35:39.016 Or, Hey, that's just the way I communicate, or they don't 00:35:39.016 --> 00:35:40.336 understand my passion for the topic. 00:35:41.236 --> 00:35:45.136 And we'll talk a lot more about this later in the episode, but let's go 00:35:45.136 --> 00:35:49.336 with the conspiracy theory example when presented with evidence that 00:35:49.406 --> 00:35:51.076 contradicts a conspiracy theory. 00:35:51.536 --> 00:35:55.226 Believers often discount it by saying the evidence itself is part of the conspiracy. 00:35:55.366 --> 00:35:57.666 Of course, the government would say that, well, the media's 00:35:57.666 --> 00:35:58.426 gonna cover everything up. 00:35:58.646 --> 00:36:00.146 That's what they don't want you to understand. 00:36:00.766 --> 00:36:03.506 Or an academic example, a student gets a poor grade and discounts it by 00:36:03.506 --> 00:36:04.746 saying, dad, the teacher didn't like me. 00:36:05.046 --> 00:36:06.706 Or, this class is just about memorizing things. 00:36:06.706 --> 00:36:07.426 It's not really about learning. 00:36:07.426 --> 00:36:09.306 Rather than considering they might actually need to study 00:36:09.306 --> 00:36:11.346 differently or even ask for help. 00:36:11.706 --> 00:36:14.476 . When we can't avoid or reinterpret contradictory evidence, we 00:36:14.476 --> 00:36:15.436 attack the source itself. 00:36:15.496 --> 00:36:17.676 The messenger becomes the problem rather than the message. 00:36:17.736 --> 00:36:20.956 And that allows us to maintain our beliefs by questioning the credibility 00:36:20.956 --> 00:36:22.196 of anybody who challenges them. 00:36:23.096 --> 00:36:24.636 Let me share a client story. 00:36:24.636 --> 00:36:28.596 And again, these stories of always had details changed to protect 00:36:28.596 --> 00:36:31.736 confidentiality, . I worked with someone who I think perfectly 00:36:31.736 --> 00:36:34.416 illustrated how all of these types of confirmation bias can work together. 00:36:34.476 --> 00:36:37.176 He came to me and he wanted to grow and see his blind spots. 00:36:37.416 --> 00:36:37.856 I loved it. 00:36:37.936 --> 00:36:38.616 I was on board. 00:36:38.876 --> 00:36:40.056 He said, challenge me, Tony. 00:36:40.236 --> 00:36:42.456 He said, I really want to understand where I might be wrong about things. 00:36:42.456 --> 00:36:42.816 So I thought. 00:36:43.811 --> 00:36:44.701 Okay, sure. 00:36:44.791 --> 00:36:47.191 Here's somebody who appears to be genuinely open to feedback 00:36:47.191 --> 00:36:49.941 and different perspectives, not the normal job of the therapist. 00:36:50.041 --> 00:36:53.611 I'm right there beside him, trying to help them find where they want to go. 00:36:53.681 --> 00:36:55.571 What are the problems and challenges in the way of that? 00:36:56.071 --> 00:36:57.291 He wanted a little bit more of a life coach. 00:36:57.291 --> 00:36:58.571 Just tell me, just let me know. 00:36:58.661 --> 00:36:59.371 Gimme the truth. 00:36:59.371 --> 00:37:00.091 Tell me what it is. 00:37:01.116 --> 00:37:04.476 But what happened next was fascinating and it actually was pretty exhausting. 00:37:04.536 --> 00:37:07.106 When I would offer an alternative viewpoint or presented information 00:37:07.216 --> 00:37:10.666 that I felt very confident about, that contradicted something that he believed, 00:37:10.666 --> 00:37:12.906 he immediately responded with my favorite. 00:37:13.126 --> 00:37:13.506 The Yeah. 00:37:13.526 --> 00:37:16.876 But yeah, but followed by a reason why my perspective didn't 00:37:16.956 --> 00:37:17.796 actually apply to his situation. 00:37:17.796 --> 00:37:17.956 Yeah. 00:37:17.956 --> 00:37:21.136 But that research was probably done on a different type of people or, yeah but 00:37:21.136 --> 00:37:22.496 you don't understand my circumstances. 00:37:22.656 --> 00:37:25.136 I mean, I know you're just doing your job or, yeah, but that 00:37:25.136 --> 00:37:27.296 might work for some people, but that's not what I'm looking for. 00:37:28.096 --> 00:37:30.741 So when I pointed out this pattern, something very interesting happened. 00:37:30.761 --> 00:37:33.181 He started to recognize that his, yeah, but responses were actually 00:37:33.181 --> 00:37:34.301 a form of emotional immaturity. 00:37:34.661 --> 00:37:36.941 Specifically the black and white thinking he had talked about earlier. 00:37:37.081 --> 00:37:39.781 He realized that whenever somebody expressed an opinion different from 00:37:39.781 --> 00:37:43.261 his, his brain automatically interpreted it as they think they are right, and I 00:37:43.261 --> 00:37:46.101 am wrong, which felt like a threat to his intelligence and his competence. 00:37:46.521 --> 00:37:49.621 So instead of him being curious about the different perspective, he would 00:37:49.621 --> 00:37:52.901 then impulsively try to to regain what is often referred to as the 00:37:52.901 --> 00:37:55.861 one-up position he'd scramble to find counterarguments, sometimes even make 00:37:55.861 --> 00:37:57.661 up facts that he wasn't sure were true. 00:37:58.321 --> 00:38:01.621 But he thought I could probably find data to back it up just to 00:38:01.621 --> 00:38:03.951 avoid the feeling like he was losing the intellectual battle. 00:38:04.211 --> 00:38:05.431 Here's where it gets really interesting. 00:38:05.541 --> 00:38:10.151 When I would present what I thought was a valid piece of research or peer 00:38:10.351 --> 00:38:13.911 reviewed data, he developed even more sophisticated ways to dismiss it. 00:38:14.861 --> 00:38:15.511 This was my favorite. 00:38:16.271 --> 00:38:20.821 He said to one particular thing that I felt very confident about healthy ego. 00:38:20.941 --> 00:38:25.421 I knew because I had done the work to know, but he said, but do you really 00:38:26.341 --> 00:38:27.341 honestly know what you're saying is true? 00:38:27.981 --> 00:38:29.651 Which then is putting me on the defensive? 00:38:29.731 --> 00:38:30.891 'cause the answer to that is yes. 00:38:31.601 --> 00:38:35.211 When I explain my sources or my reasoning, he would say, well, you 00:38:35.251 --> 00:38:37.171 can actually find research to back up anything you want these days. 00:38:37.946 --> 00:38:39.326 So hopefully you can see what was happening. 00:38:39.326 --> 00:38:41.966 He had created a perfect system for getting out of any conversation 00:38:41.966 --> 00:38:43.286 without having to self confront. 00:38:43.506 --> 00:38:47.206 He could even walk away from that saying, man, I really appreciate that session. 00:38:47.646 --> 00:38:51.366 I feel so much better about myself because I turns out I was right about everything. 00:38:52.346 --> 00:38:54.646 So, selective search, he only looked for information that 00:38:54.646 --> 00:38:55.646 supported his existing views. 00:38:55.786 --> 00:38:56.846 Biased interpretation. 00:38:57.386 --> 00:39:00.326 Any neutral information got filtered through his existing beliefs. 00:39:01.046 --> 00:39:03.926 Selective memory, he would remember the times that he felt right and forget the 00:39:03.926 --> 00:39:06.686 times that he might have been wrong, and then discounting when faced with. 00:39:07.596 --> 00:39:09.976 Any kind of contradictory evidence, he would attack the 00:39:09.976 --> 00:39:10.856 credibility of the source. 00:39:11.476 --> 00:39:14.656 And it was kind of brilliant to watch actually, from a psychological pro 00:39:14.656 --> 00:39:18.886 protection standpoint because it was also causing him to isolate more and more. 00:39:18.886 --> 00:39:21.926 And he found himself seeking out only people in online communities and groups 00:39:21.986 --> 00:39:23.286 who thought exactly the way he did. 00:39:24.256 --> 00:39:27.501 Because they were the only ones who didn't trigger his defensive responses. 00:39:27.501 --> 00:39:30.901 Now, the problem was those relationships were ultimately unsatisfying. 00:39:31.361 --> 00:39:33.381 He started to realize what so many people do. 00:39:33.491 --> 00:39:35.661 Well, not enough people do that. 00:39:35.861 --> 00:39:38.981 Surrounding yourself with yes men, with people who only agree with him wasn't 00:39:39.181 --> 00:39:41.221 actually validating it was lonely. 00:39:41.981 --> 00:39:45.921 He wasn't just connecting with people, he was just collecting these Yes men. 00:39:46.381 --> 00:39:49.601 So the breakthrough came when he recognized that his Yeah, but wasn't 00:39:49.761 --> 00:39:50.801 actually protecting his intelligence. 00:39:50.801 --> 00:39:53.641 It was protecting his ego from the discomfort of potentially being wrong. 00:39:53.981 --> 00:39:57.241 And that discomfort, that cognitive dissonance, was actually the information 00:39:57.241 --> 00:40:01.961 that he needed to start to pay attention to not something to immediately resolve 00:40:02.261 --> 00:40:04.041 by dismissing other perspectives. 00:40:04.501 --> 00:40:07.921 And I think this so accurately shows how confirmation bias 00:40:08.091 --> 00:40:09.321 isn't just about being stubborn. 00:40:10.161 --> 00:40:13.181 It is about how our minds systematically process information 00:40:13.181 --> 00:40:17.101 in ways that protect our existing beliefs, and often, most often we 00:40:17.101 --> 00:40:18.181 don't even realize it's happening. 00:40:18.841 --> 00:40:21.381 My client thought he was being intellectually rigorous, but 00:40:21.381 --> 00:40:23.861 he was actually being very intellectually defensive. 00:40:24.714 --> 00:40:28.444 So now let me show you how this pattern would play out in a more public context 00:40:28.634 --> 00:40:32.404 that I think most of us have probably witnessed or even experienced ourselves. 00:40:32.864 --> 00:40:36.244 And this does have to do with vaccines vaccine hesitancy. 00:40:36.304 --> 00:40:40.164 And I am gonna use this as our muse, whether you are pro-vaccine vaccine 00:40:40.484 --> 00:40:41.804 hesitant, or somewhere in between. 00:40:42.644 --> 00:40:47.644 I think it's a very nice way to recognize these psychological patterns. 00:40:48.364 --> 00:40:48.824 In action. 00:40:48.924 --> 00:40:53.104 If somebody has developed concerns about vaccines, they would most likely engage 00:40:53.124 --> 00:40:57.104 in exactly the same confirmation bias behaviors that my client was using. 00:40:57.514 --> 00:40:58.794 Just applied to a different topic. 00:40:58.854 --> 00:41:02.634 So that selective search, they find themselves gravitating toward anti-vaccine 00:41:02.634 --> 00:41:05.874 websites, testimonials from parents who believe that vaccines harm their kids 00:41:06.414 --> 00:41:09.514 and alternative health practitioners who then validate those concerns. 00:41:10.219 --> 00:41:13.999 Now meanwhile, they most likely are avoiding mainstream medical websites 00:41:13.999 --> 00:41:15.999 or CDC information pro-vaccine content. 00:41:16.449 --> 00:41:19.759 Again, not necessarily because they're being deliberately close-minded, but 00:41:19.759 --> 00:41:23.739 because that information creates that same uncomfortable cognitive dissonance 00:41:23.929 --> 00:41:25.139 that my client was trying to avoid. 00:41:26.009 --> 00:41:27.669 And then you've got biased interpretation. 00:41:27.689 --> 00:41:32.109 So when their kid gets a fever or seems really fussy, especially 00:41:32.109 --> 00:41:36.109 after a vaccination, then they interpret that as evidence that 00:41:36.249 --> 00:41:39.709 see vaccines are harmful instead of considering might be a normal immune 00:41:39.989 --> 00:41:41.309 response, it could be a coincidence. 00:41:41.979 --> 00:41:45.389 Then that same parent might not connect their child's good health 00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:49.429 to the diseases that they've been protected from selective memory. 00:41:50.144 --> 00:41:53.189 They vividly remember every story they've heard about people who 00:41:53.189 --> 00:41:56.629 were injured from vaccines or adverse reactions from vaccines. 00:41:57.099 --> 00:42:01.229 Even if the statistics about life saved or epidemics prevented, or children who 00:42:01.229 --> 00:42:05.629 have been protected seem less memorable or they aren't as emotionally compelling, 00:42:05.929 --> 00:42:09.189 and then you've got that concept of discounting when presented with data, 00:42:09.279 --> 00:42:13.029 let's say C, D, C data showing vaccine safety, they immediately dismiss it 00:42:13.029 --> 00:42:14.629 as that's just government propaganda. 00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:16.829 What are, what else are they gonna say when. 00:42:17.544 --> 00:42:18.589 Have shown peer reviewed studies. 00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:20.829 They counter that with, well, who pays for that Big pharma? 00:42:20.939 --> 00:42:24.029 They fund all the research and just like my client saying, you can find 00:42:24.269 --> 00:42:28.509 research to support anything, they've created a system where no contrary 00:42:28.749 --> 00:42:30.229 evidence can penetrate those beliefs. 00:42:31.064 --> 00:42:34.724 And just like this client I was talking about, this isn't about being stubborn or 00:42:35.384 --> 00:42:37.204 not necessarily about being unintelligent. 00:42:37.664 --> 00:42:41.404 It is about how our mind systematically processes information in ways 00:42:41.404 --> 00:42:42.884 that protect our existing beliefs. 00:42:43.114 --> 00:42:46.324 It's our default, often without us, I would say most often without 00:42:46.324 --> 00:42:47.684 us realizing it's even happening. 00:42:48.354 --> 00:42:52.944 This is why it takes great patience to build in that pause, to come back 00:42:52.944 --> 00:42:57.264 into this present moment, to be able to recognize when I'm jumping into that 00:42:57.264 --> 00:42:59.024 confirmation bias or cognitive bias. 00:43:00.099 --> 00:43:04.719 If a parent has developed vaccine concerns genuinely and genuinely believes 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.199 they're being a good parent by doing their own research and asking questions, 00:43:08.349 --> 00:43:09.759 they're not trying to be difficult. 00:43:09.989 --> 00:43:12.999 They are trying to protect their child based on what feels true to them. 00:43:13.819 --> 00:43:18.639 But the same psychological mechanisms that kept my client then isolated and 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:22.439 defensive are at work here too, and in so many of the scenarios that we 00:43:22.439 --> 00:43:24.199 find ourselves in out in the wild. 00:43:25.114 --> 00:43:28.934 The more somebody's vaccine beliefs get challenged, then the more they 00:43:28.934 --> 00:43:32.454 might seek out only the like-minded communities and the more isolated 00:43:32.454 --> 00:43:35.054 they become from people who might offer these different perspectives. 00:43:35.314 --> 00:43:38.654 And I hope we're laying out a case today that most people are not gonna 00:43:38.654 --> 00:43:43.574 self confront and even question whether or not they might not be correct. 00:43:44.564 --> 00:43:48.614 This is why simply presenting facts about things like vaccine safety or 00:43:48.614 --> 00:43:52.534 any of these topics typically doesn't work, and sometimes even back buyers. 00:43:53.534 --> 00:43:55.934 'cause the person's brain has already created a system for 00:43:55.934 --> 00:43:57.534 dismissing contradictory information. 00:43:58.304 --> 00:43:59.124 In that scenario. 00:43:59.804 --> 00:44:03.324 I was gonna say, they're not looking for truth, but to them it can feel, 00:44:03.344 --> 00:44:05.364 and I'm sure not even, I'm sure it is. 00:44:05.604 --> 00:44:06.644 I know I do this as well. 00:44:07.564 --> 00:44:08.684 I believe I am looking for truth. 00:44:08.864 --> 00:44:10.084 But are we doing that? 00:44:10.184 --> 00:44:13.884 Are we more looking for confirmation, validation that our protective 00:44:14.084 --> 00:44:18.524 instincts as a parent are correct and think about how this plays out in 00:44:18.524 --> 00:44:19.684 our current information environment. 00:44:20.879 --> 00:44:24.949 We can curate our own news sources, our own social media feeds even our 00:44:24.949 --> 00:44:28.869 own social circles to provide us with a steady stream of information that 00:44:28.869 --> 00:44:30.269 confirms what we already believe. 00:44:30.929 --> 00:44:33.089 I can, here's my old man, get off the lawn moment. 00:44:33.189 --> 00:44:34.849 But, Dogg on social media in that algorithm. 00:44:34.919 --> 00:44:38.609 I'll tell you what, right now I think I'm afraid I'm gonna have to 00:44:38.609 --> 00:44:41.669 take some, I wanna say middle age, but I'm getting older in age dance 00:44:41.879 --> 00:44:45.369 class because I watched a, an old guy dance at his daughter's wedding. 00:44:45.749 --> 00:44:49.329 So now, and me even saying it right now, I'm sure that my phone, my 00:44:49.439 --> 00:44:53.189 iPad everything's probably loading up even more of these ads of look, 00:44:53.189 --> 00:44:56.979 this old guy can learn to dance in five minutes every afternoon we 00:44:56.979 --> 00:44:58.139 can create our own reality bubble. 00:44:58.939 --> 00:45:02.639 So if we connect these two phenomena, we got this darthmouth scar study, 00:45:02.819 --> 00:45:06.279 and then we got confirmation bias research and we're gonna set the 00:45:06.279 --> 00:45:10.439 table here revealing a little bit more information about how our minds work. 00:45:10.449 --> 00:45:12.399 Let's first look at these similarities between the two. 00:45:12.399 --> 00:45:15.399 Both involve these expectation driven perceptions. 00:45:15.579 --> 00:45:18.639 In the scar study, participants expected to be treated differently, 00:45:19.019 --> 00:45:22.959 so they interpreted even neutral behavior as discriminatory. 00:45:23.779 --> 00:45:24.819 Confirmation bias. 00:45:24.964 --> 00:45:27.264 We expect to find evidence for our beliefs. 00:45:27.614 --> 00:45:29.104 That is how we are hardwired. 00:45:29.364 --> 00:45:34.594 So we interpret even the most ambiguous information as, oh, okay, I 00:45:34.594 --> 00:45:36.274 can make that fit into my narrative. 00:45:36.354 --> 00:45:39.774 Gimme this clay and I will mold it into my very own belief, and it will 00:45:39.774 --> 00:45:43.494 make me feel better about myself and the things that I am standing for. 00:45:44.244 --> 00:45:46.094 Both create self-reinforcing cycles. 00:45:47.024 --> 00:45:48.474 Scar study participant's behavior. 00:45:48.744 --> 00:45:53.264 Maybe being more defensive or myth or more withdrawn might have actually then 00:45:53.304 --> 00:45:56.144 elicited different responses from the people that they were interacting with. 00:45:56.174 --> 00:45:57.984 Kind of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. 00:45:58.324 --> 00:46:00.904 If the person just looks over at me and I think I've got a big scar 00:46:00.904 --> 00:46:03.624 on my forehead and I don't, and I say, what are you looking at? 00:46:03.774 --> 00:46:06.144 Okay, yeah, you want to. 00:46:07.349 --> 00:46:09.269 The old what Pee wee Herman bit, take a picture. 00:46:09.399 --> 00:46:12.549 It'll last longer, and the person just had literally glanced over. 00:46:12.749 --> 00:46:13.869 I mean, that person already is. 00:46:13.869 --> 00:46:17.229 Now they're reacting in the moment thinking, okay, weirdo. 00:46:17.349 --> 00:46:19.269 I just literally like looked in that direction. 00:46:20.459 --> 00:46:23.869 Similarly, confirmation bias makes us more confident in our beliefs 00:46:23.869 --> 00:46:26.989 because holy cow, we keep finding all kinds of evidence for 'em. 00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:32.799 Both operate largely in the unconscious mind, the participants didn't consciously 00:46:32.799 --> 00:46:34.319 decide to misinterpret social cues. 00:46:35.314 --> 00:46:37.694 People experiencing confirmation bias aren't usually aware. 00:46:37.694 --> 00:46:38.734 They're filtering information. 00:46:39.724 --> 00:46:42.214 Both feel completely real to the person experiencing them. 00:46:42.354 --> 00:46:44.614 The participants genuinely experienced discrimination. 00:46:44.804 --> 00:46:47.644 They, it was what they felt and saw and acknowledged. 00:46:47.984 --> 00:46:50.524 People with strong confirmation bias, genuinely believed they're 00:46:50.524 --> 00:46:53.714 being objective and just following the evidence, following the truth, 00:46:54.754 --> 00:46:55.924 recognizing the big differences. 00:46:56.374 --> 00:47:00.714 The scar study was a specific temporary belief in a very controlled setting. 00:47:01.524 --> 00:47:05.394 Now, confirmation bias that affects our entire worldview and it can 00:47:05.394 --> 00:47:06.754 be across all areas of our life. 00:47:07.494 --> 00:47:11.954 The scar study involved relatively low stakes social interactions, but then 00:47:11.954 --> 00:47:15.794 confirmation bias can involve our most fundamental beliefs about reality, 00:47:16.354 --> 00:47:19.294 morality religion, community identity. 00:47:20.094 --> 00:47:24.794 And while the scar study lasted just, it was just a few hours, the confirmation 00:47:24.794 --> 00:47:27.654 bias is happening in real time. 00:47:28.134 --> 00:47:29.214 I want to say all the time. 00:47:29.754 --> 00:47:32.414 It can shape our thinking for decades, for our lives. 00:47:33.074 --> 00:47:34.654 So you've got this emotional investment. 00:47:34.794 --> 00:47:36.894 The scar study did create some temporary discomfort 00:47:37.624 --> 00:47:41.244 the reason I think these differences, these similarities are so powerful is 00:47:41.244 --> 00:47:45.244 because you can see these things on a small scale and you may walk away today 00:47:45.244 --> 00:47:46.404 and think, oh, that is interesting. 00:47:46.824 --> 00:47:49.484 But then this confirmation bias concept is something that is 00:47:49.484 --> 00:47:51.364 happening in real time at all times. 00:47:51.984 --> 00:47:54.644 So it does take more work to be more aware of it. 00:47:55.444 --> 00:47:58.924 Confirmation bias is gonna protect your beliefs that are central to your 00:47:59.204 --> 00:48:00.404 identity and your sense of meaning. 00:48:01.204 --> 00:48:04.139 Another thing I find fascinating by this whole experience is in some 00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:08.939 ways then our strongly held beliefs then function like invisible scars. 00:48:09.649 --> 00:48:13.139 They change how we perceive the world, how we interpret others' actions and 00:48:13.139 --> 00:48:14.699 how we navigate social situations. 00:48:14.999 --> 00:48:19.059 But that difference is that those scars are often invisible to us to. 00:48:19.129 --> 00:48:19.349 to. 00:48:20.584 --> 00:48:24.564 We're operating off of this reactive way that we're trying to make sense of 00:48:24.564 --> 00:48:29.404 the world to make us feel better and we're looking for ways to confirm the 00:48:29.404 --> 00:48:31.214 beliefs that we just have come upon, 00:48:31.954 --> 00:48:38.224 or beliefs that were handed to us over time from our family, from our community 00:48:38.224 --> 00:48:42.234 , from our political beliefs, from our parents, there are so many variables that 00:48:42.234 --> 00:48:48.274 go into the default mode settings that we have with our beliefs, our values, 00:48:48.274 --> 00:48:50.524 our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions. 00:48:51.124 --> 00:48:53.104 And that's just to be accepted. 00:48:53.104 --> 00:48:54.154 Those are there. 00:48:54.184 --> 00:48:55.354 So now what do we do with them? 00:48:55.474 --> 00:48:59.784 Are we open to change, to self confrontation, to critical thinking? 00:49:00.297 --> 00:49:03.127 , And when somebody challenges our political beliefs. 00:49:04.002 --> 00:49:06.982 We don't just disagree with their argument, we might perceive them 00:49:06.982 --> 00:49:10.262 as attacking our intelligence, our values, or our identity. 00:49:10.732 --> 00:49:13.712 When somebody questions our religious beliefs, we might interpret that as 00:49:13.992 --> 00:49:17.822 persecution or discrimination, and just like the participants in the 00:49:17.822 --> 00:49:19.822 scar study, we're not making that up. 00:49:19.822 --> 00:49:21.542 It is our genuine experience. 00:49:21.562 --> 00:49:25.622 That's how we're seeing the world through the lens of our beliefs you don't know 00:49:25.812 --> 00:49:28.302 what you don't know, and that is powerful. 00:49:28.922 --> 00:49:31.142 The participants in the scar study didn't know that. 00:49:31.142 --> 00:49:32.382 They didn't know that they had no scar. 00:49:33.092 --> 00:49:37.302 Similarly, just like we often don't know what we don't know about our own 00:49:37.302 --> 00:49:40.782 confirmation biases, our own invisible scars, our own ways of filtering reality, 00:49:41.402 --> 00:49:45.422 and this is why approaching belief change with humility is really important. 00:49:46.082 --> 00:49:48.982 We might be absolutely certain about something and still 00:49:48.982 --> 00:49:50.142 be wrong, and that's okay. 00:49:50.252 --> 00:49:51.022 It's part of being human. 00:49:51.687 --> 00:49:55.612 It's the very first time you are you going through life as you in the moment 00:49:55.622 --> 00:49:56.892 right now, you're listening to this. 00:49:56.992 --> 00:49:59.532 You are a combination of so many different variables. 00:49:59.912 --> 00:50:03.612 Nature, nurture, birth order, DN, a, abandonment, rejection, hope, fears, 00:50:03.612 --> 00:50:07.252 attachment, wounds, experiences of loss, financial circumstances, everything 00:50:07.252 --> 00:50:09.452 else that makes you uniquely you. 00:50:09.672 --> 00:50:14.132 So why is it then so difficult for people to change their minds or look at things 00:50:14.132 --> 00:50:16.972 from a different perspective or try to understand someone else's experiences? 00:50:18.352 --> 00:50:21.782 First, we have to acknowledge that we have a continually running 00:50:22.212 --> 00:50:26.262 psychological protection system in our brains at all times. 00:50:26.362 --> 00:50:29.382 At its core, our brain is a don't get kill device. 00:50:29.812 --> 00:50:33.862 It's designed for survival, not really for finding truth or 00:50:33.862 --> 00:50:35.342 being accurate about reality. 00:50:36.122 --> 00:50:40.382 It just wants to continue to exist and so scary things. 00:50:41.202 --> 00:50:41.902 May get it killed. 00:50:42.242 --> 00:50:46.382 So it wants to find comfort and safety and certainty and security. 00:50:47.232 --> 00:50:50.602 Think about that in the context of this scar study, those participants 00:50:50.602 --> 00:50:52.722 weren't lying when they reported feeling discriminated against. 00:50:52.732 --> 00:50:57.602 Their brain was genuinely interpreting neutral social cues as threats because 00:50:57.752 --> 00:51:02.002 they believed they had this visible flaw and that psychological protection 00:51:02.002 --> 00:51:06.266 system kicks in, scans the environment and says, Hey, we're vulnerable here. 00:51:06.766 --> 00:51:07.906 People could reject us. 00:51:07.906 --> 00:51:08.866 This whole scar thing. 00:51:08.866 --> 00:51:09.666 They'll exclude us. 00:51:10.046 --> 00:51:11.496 They'll treat us as less than. 00:51:11.711 --> 00:51:12.851 Sounds pretty dangerous. 00:51:12.851 --> 00:51:15.531 Before you know it, we're gonna be booted out of the group and 00:51:15.551 --> 00:51:16.881 wear those saber-tooth tigers. 00:51:16.981 --> 00:51:17.841 That's dangerous. 00:51:18.541 --> 00:51:21.321 Now you may think, Tony, we are not living in the stone age anymore. 00:51:21.851 --> 00:51:23.651 Social rejection isn't life-threatening. 00:51:23.671 --> 00:51:24.451 But here's the thing. 00:51:24.911 --> 00:51:29.481 Our brain is just this organ, this facilitator of lots of 00:51:29.481 --> 00:51:30.521 amazing things, but it's just. 00:51:31.141 --> 00:51:32.111 This is trying to live. 00:51:32.611 --> 00:51:36.631 Our brains actually have not caught up with modern reality for our ancestors. 00:51:36.641 --> 00:51:38.471 Being rejected by the tribe meant death. 00:51:38.931 --> 00:51:41.391 If you were cast out from the group, you couldn't survive on your own. 00:51:41.731 --> 00:51:43.271 So our brains evolved to treat. 00:51:44.106 --> 00:51:48.711 Social threats like being seen as wrong or stupid or different as 00:51:48.861 --> 00:51:52.671 existential threats, life-threatening things that we must deal with. 00:51:52.861 --> 00:51:55.071 This is why confirmation bias exists in the first place. 00:51:55.071 --> 00:51:57.911 When somebody challenges those beliefs, especially the ones again, that are 00:51:57.911 --> 00:52:02.301 core to our identity, our brain doesn't just hear, I disagree with your opinion. 00:52:03.136 --> 00:52:06.876 Here's you are wrong, which means you're not smart, which means you don't belong, 00:52:06.876 --> 00:52:09.596 which means you are in danger and you're gonna get kicked outta the group. 00:52:09.776 --> 00:52:11.596 And the next thing you know, and our pet's heads are falling 00:52:11.616 --> 00:52:14.156 off and everything's going bad. 00:52:14.956 --> 00:52:18.336 At its simplest level, any threat, even verbal disagreement, triggers the same 00:52:18.336 --> 00:52:23.096 ancient alarm system that once helped our ancestors survive actual physical dangers. 00:52:23.096 --> 00:52:24.656 That's why we're here today, why we're listening. 00:52:25.316 --> 00:52:27.536 The threat must be neutralized and attacked. 00:52:28.101 --> 00:52:31.351 This is why we see people become so emotionally dysregulated when 00:52:31.601 --> 00:52:35.071 these beliefs, political, religious, et cetera, are challenged. 00:52:35.121 --> 00:52:38.711 Their brain is screaming, look, old man, , this person is 00:52:38.831 --> 00:52:39.791 threatening our very survival. 00:52:40.591 --> 00:52:43.771 So that client example earlier when that client responded with, well, 00:52:43.771 --> 00:52:47.891 yeah, but everything he wasn't just being intellectually stubborn. 00:52:48.111 --> 00:52:50.211 His psychological protection system was activated. 00:52:51.086 --> 00:52:54.196 His brain was interpreting my alternative perspectives as threats to his 00:52:54.196 --> 00:52:58.076 competence, his intelligence, his sense of being right, which to his unconscious 00:52:58.076 --> 00:53:01.076 mind felt like threats to his social standing and ultimately his survival. 00:53:01.916 --> 00:53:05.176 The same thing happens when we're talking about vaccine hesitancy, political 00:53:05.176 --> 00:53:06.816 beliefs, or any deeply held conviction. 00:53:06.966 --> 00:53:11.296 When we present contradictory evidence, we're not just challenging somebody's 00:53:11.296 --> 00:53:14.656 ideas, we're inadvertently activating their threat detection system. 00:53:15.226 --> 00:53:17.486 We're telling 'em that they are wrong and we are right. 00:53:18.296 --> 00:53:21.341 Their brain says, if I'm wrong, about this important thing, what does that 00:53:21.341 --> 00:53:24.181 say about my judgment, my intelligence, my ability to protect my family? 00:53:24.241 --> 00:53:25.741 All of a sudden, my spouse is gonna leave. 00:53:26.001 --> 00:53:31.111 My kids are, you can see, we just quickly just devolve . Let's get to 00:53:31.111 --> 00:53:32.311 one of my favorite concepts here. 00:53:32.861 --> 00:53:34.151 It's called the backfire effect. 00:53:34.861 --> 00:53:36.191 When the Backfire effect happens. 00:53:37.346 --> 00:53:40.876 When the threat feels big enough, the brain doesn't just dismiss 00:53:40.926 --> 00:53:42.226 the contradictory information. 00:53:42.686 --> 00:53:43.146 Oh no. 00:53:43.686 --> 00:53:46.706 It now has to go double down on the original belief as a way of 00:53:46.706 --> 00:53:49.426 restoring the sense of safety and competence that it once felt. 00:53:50.286 --> 00:53:53.426 But understanding this changes everything about how we approach 00:53:53.426 --> 00:53:55.666 conversations with people who see the world differently than we do. 00:53:56.276 --> 00:53:58.146 We're not just dealing with different opinions, we're dealing 00:53:58.146 --> 00:54:02.521 with activated threat protection systems and adorable egos that are 00:54:02.521 --> 00:54:06.281 protecting and being the security guard of your, your own sense of self. 00:54:07.181 --> 00:54:11.201 And those are genuinely trying to keep people safe, even when the danger is 00:54:11.201 --> 00:54:14.121 just about being wrong about something or having a different opinion. 00:54:14.921 --> 00:54:17.851 It's fascinating, if you think about it, of how our minds have evolved 00:54:17.851 --> 00:54:22.061 these elaborate systems to even protect our beliefs especially the 00:54:22.061 --> 00:54:23.341 ones that are central to our identity. 00:54:24.301 --> 00:54:27.746 From an evolutionary perspective, if our ancestors constantly question every 00:54:27.766 --> 00:54:31.386 belief and then change their minds at the first sign of contradictory evidence, 00:54:32.166 --> 00:54:37.306 we would probably not be here listening because so often, especially for them. 00:54:38.106 --> 00:54:41.186 Sticking with what you believe, even if it's not perfectly accurate, is safer 00:54:41.256 --> 00:54:42.746 than constantly changing your mind. 00:54:42.896 --> 00:54:49.466 This is part of why we have an emotional immaturity epidemic and why the need to 00:54:49.466 --> 00:54:53.146 become more emotionally mature is there because there's so much information coming 00:54:53.312 --> 00:54:55.212 our brains are going crazy just trying to survive. 00:54:56.767 --> 00:55:00.347 Let me give a few examples to show how our minds evolved to 00:55:00.377 --> 00:55:02.067 protect beliefs for our survival. 00:55:02.127 --> 00:55:07.647 So if we look at this as a survival based belief protection predator avoidance, if 00:55:07.647 --> 00:55:10.967 your ancestor heard rustling in the bushes and believed, I think that's a predator. 00:55:11.627 --> 00:55:16.087 It was far better to stick with that belief and run, even if it 00:55:16.087 --> 00:55:17.887 was just the wind, 99% of the time. 00:55:19.052 --> 00:55:21.622 If there was an ancestor, who constantly questioned this belief 00:55:21.622 --> 00:55:25.342 and thought, you know what, maybe, maybe I should investigate that 00:55:25.342 --> 00:55:26.782 rustling in the grass just to be sure. 00:55:27.582 --> 00:55:30.312 They would most likely eventually encounter the 1% where it actually was 00:55:30.352 --> 00:55:34.632 a predator and they would die better to be wrong and alive than right and dead. 00:55:34.812 --> 00:55:37.992 And if my daughter cuts that up for social media, I hope that 00:55:37.992 --> 00:55:39.192 we get the full context of that. 00:55:40.122 --> 00:55:41.112 Let's look at food safety. 00:55:41.172 --> 00:55:43.272 If somebody in your tribe got sick after eating certain berries. 00:55:44.517 --> 00:55:45.697 It was evolutionary. 00:55:46.117 --> 00:55:50.257 It was evolutionarily advantageous to develop a strong belief that 00:55:50.257 --> 00:55:51.537 those berries are dangerous. 00:55:51.537 --> 00:55:56.917 They made grogg die, and so I do not want to be grogg, so I will 00:55:56.917 --> 00:55:57.757 stay away from those berries. 00:55:58.017 --> 00:56:02.717 Now, if there was a person who constantly questioned that belief and thought, well, 00:56:02.717 --> 00:56:07.247 it's been a, it's been a few weeks, maybe the berries are fine now, they would 00:56:07.247 --> 00:56:09.007 eventually eat the wrong ones and die. 00:56:09.807 --> 00:56:10.447 RIP grog. 00:56:11.527 --> 00:56:12.267 Tribal loyalty. 00:56:12.487 --> 00:56:16.107 Our ancestors who strongly believed their tribe was good. 00:56:16.907 --> 00:56:19.527 And other tribes were dangerous, were more likely to stick with their 00:56:19.527 --> 00:56:20.847 protective group and defend it. 00:56:21.177 --> 00:56:24.087 Those who constantly questioned whether their tribe was really the best one 00:56:24.097 --> 00:56:27.357 might have wandered off alone or even been less committed to group defense. 00:56:28.217 --> 00:56:31.424 And now lemme bring this into the modern world, belief protection 00:56:31.424 --> 00:56:33.664 still operates a medical adherence. 00:56:34.214 --> 00:56:38.154 When somebody finds a doctor they trust, they tend to stick with that doctor and. 00:56:38.271 --> 00:56:41.991 Start to feel or maybe adopt their belief system, even if they are 00:56:41.991 --> 00:56:44.751 presented with contradictory medical advice at some point down the road. 00:56:45.201 --> 00:56:49.061 This is protective constantly switching medical philosophies could lead to 00:56:49.061 --> 00:56:52.501 inconsistent care and then eventually some dangerous interactions and you die. 00:56:53.331 --> 00:56:54.341 Parenting beliefs. 00:56:54.526 --> 00:56:56.976 Parents develop very strong beliefs about what's best for their kids. 00:56:56.996 --> 00:57:01.256 Breast versus bottle feeding, co-sleeping versus cribs cried out versus not. 00:57:01.956 --> 00:57:05.706 Constantly changing those beliefs based on every new study or every new reel 00:57:06.116 --> 00:57:08.426 would create chaos and inconsistency. 00:57:08.426 --> 00:57:10.826 That could actually be a challenge to the child. 00:57:11.626 --> 00:57:13.166 And I wanna say, don't get me started. 00:57:13.166 --> 00:57:15.696 In the world of finances, that's a challenge in and of itself. 00:57:15.716 --> 00:57:18.776 But somebody who believes the stock market's a little too risky, might 00:57:18.776 --> 00:57:20.096 stick with the conservative investments. 00:57:20.266 --> 00:57:22.776 While they might miss some gains, they also avoid potential 00:57:23.016 --> 00:57:25.956 devastating losses that could come from constantly changing investment 00:57:25.956 --> 00:57:28.716 strategies based on market news, 00:57:29.116 --> 00:57:33.876 , There are times that this psychological protection system does become problematic. 00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:35.389 Let's talk political identity. 00:57:35.769 --> 00:57:36.749 One of these high charge topics. 00:57:36.849 --> 00:57:40.629 Our ancestors needed very strong tribal loyalty for survival, 00:57:41.209 --> 00:57:42.389 but now the same mechanism. 00:57:42.609 --> 00:57:46.349 It can make us resist political information that challenges our party 00:57:46.349 --> 00:57:51.069 affiliation, even when changing our mind might lead to a better policy outcome. 00:57:51.749 --> 00:57:55.329 I Work with people often that will talk about when they vote. 00:57:55.509 --> 00:57:56.969 It is the straight party line. 00:57:57.549 --> 00:58:01.089 And I will often just outta curiosity ask if they're aware 00:58:01.089 --> 00:58:03.649 of the things that they're voting for other than the candidates. 00:58:04.309 --> 00:58:06.329 And I would say the number one answer is no. 00:58:06.369 --> 00:58:09.369 I haven't really had time, but I believe it's an all or nothing 00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:11.089 thing with my political party. 00:58:11.889 --> 00:58:14.619 If we look at religious beliefs the certainty that helped 00:58:14.619 --> 00:58:17.919 our ancestors maintain social cohesion a moral structure. 00:58:18.594 --> 00:58:22.484 They can now prevent us from updating our understanding when we're presented 00:58:22.484 --> 00:58:25.934 with new information or philosophical information, scientific information, 00:58:25.934 --> 00:58:28.584 historical data health behaviors. 00:58:28.904 --> 00:58:31.304 Somebody might stick with the belief that I'm healthy enough and resist 00:58:31.304 --> 00:58:35.104 information about diet or exercise changes because constantly questioning 00:58:35.104 --> 00:58:39.584 our health status might create more anxiety and decision paralysis and yo-yo 00:58:39.584 --> 00:58:45.014 dieting and all kinds of things that would just potentially cause more anxiety. 00:58:45.814 --> 00:58:47.024 Look at professional identity. 00:58:47.184 --> 00:58:51.584 A doctor or a therapist who has practiced a certain way for 20 years might resist 00:58:51.584 --> 00:58:56.364 new treatment protocols because constantly questioning their expertise , they may 00:58:56.364 --> 00:58:58.644 feel that that would undermine their confidence or their effectiveness. 00:58:59.424 --> 00:59:04.644 And I recently had a client who I love, one of my favorites, ask 00:59:04.644 --> 00:59:06.284 me when I will figure things out. 00:59:06.939 --> 00:59:10.399 Because they've been with me for a long time and we've gone through four 00:59:10.399 --> 00:59:11.759 pillars of a connected conversation. 00:59:11.979 --> 00:59:13.779 They've been with me long enough where there are only three pillars 00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:18.429 and attachment theory and avoidant and anxious and needing validation and 00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:21.709 discomfort and safety and you name it. 00:59:22.569 --> 00:59:25.829 And she said, yeah, when are you gonna figure it out so that 00:59:25.869 --> 00:59:27.109 I don't have to keep learning? 00:59:27.269 --> 00:59:28.069 I can lock in. 00:59:28.609 --> 00:59:31.269 And I just said, man, no, that I so hear you. 00:59:31.449 --> 00:59:32.669 Um, never, I hope. 00:59:33.864 --> 00:59:37.424 I want to continually learn and evolve as I am learning and evolving. 00:59:38.224 --> 00:59:42.354 There's a part of this that I refer to in my mind as the better 00:59:42.354 --> 00:59:43.514 safe than sorry, principle. 00:59:44.134 --> 00:59:48.514 And I think that also plays into why it can be so difficult to change our 00:59:48.514 --> 00:59:49.834 mind or definitely somebody else's. 00:59:50.744 --> 00:59:51.804 Here's a few examples there. 00:59:51.804 --> 00:59:52.724 Let's look in the dating world. 00:59:52.724 --> 00:59:55.644 If somebody believes their partner might be cheating based on limited 00:59:56.044 --> 01:00:00.484 evidence, it might be safer to maintain suspicion than to completely trust 01:00:01.104 --> 01:00:05.244 and potentially be betrayed and heaven forbid, have an uncomfortable or difficult 01:00:05.244 --> 01:00:07.484 conversation, or look at job security. 01:00:07.624 --> 01:00:10.364 An employee might believe their job is at risk and work extra hard, 01:00:10.364 --> 01:00:12.004 even if the evidence is ambiguous. 01:00:12.194 --> 01:00:15.884 Because being wrong about job security is less costly than 01:00:15.884 --> 01:00:17.404 being wrong about job safety. 01:00:18.204 --> 01:00:18.704 If you look at. 01:00:19.379 --> 01:00:20.069 Home security. 01:00:20.269 --> 01:00:23.189 A lot of people maintain beliefs about a neighborhood, about neighborhood safety 01:00:23.189 --> 01:00:24.749 that maybe err on the side of caution. 01:00:24.749 --> 01:00:27.469 Better to believe your neighborhood is a little bit dangerous and take 01:00:27.469 --> 01:00:30.609 precautions than to believe it is safe, and then become a victim. 01:00:31.059 --> 01:00:33.464 There's also a cost of constant belief or vision. 01:00:33.754 --> 01:00:35.074 It can be decision paralysis. 01:00:35.074 --> 01:00:37.914 Imagine if every morning you had to question whether or not, am I 01:00:38.074 --> 01:00:38.994 brushing my teeth today or not? 01:00:38.994 --> 01:00:39.794 I gotta figure this out. 01:00:40.254 --> 01:00:42.944 What am I gonna do for breakfast and what's the best thing for breakfast? 01:00:42.944 --> 01:00:44.664 And I don't wanna get anything wrong for breakfast. 01:00:44.664 --> 01:00:47.384 And whether the route to work is actually optimal. 01:00:47.384 --> 01:00:49.064 Should I be looking at different routes to work? 01:00:49.754 --> 01:00:54.224 Constantly revising basic beliefs or activities would tend to make 01:00:54.224 --> 01:00:55.784 daily functioning difficult. 01:00:56.589 --> 01:00:57.449 It could cause anxiety. 01:00:57.449 --> 01:01:00.599 It might even develop into almost a ritualistic ooc d like 01:01:00.799 --> 01:01:04.119 behavior pattern that is there in hopes of avoiding anxiety. 01:01:04.379 --> 01:01:07.279 So we're doing this even in areas we're not even aware of. 01:01:07.859 --> 01:01:11.439 So rather than lean in and embrace the discomfort or learn more about 01:01:11.439 --> 01:01:15.159 psychological flexibility and begin to take pleasure and just being in the 01:01:15.359 --> 01:01:18.879 individual moment when the world then is a mystery right in front of you, 01:01:18.879 --> 01:01:20.399 ready to explore rather than to fear. 01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:22.659 And look at your social relationships. 01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:25.219 If you constantly question whether your friends really like you or 01:01:25.219 --> 01:01:28.939 whether your family cared about you, it would be really difficult to form a 01:01:28.939 --> 01:01:32.139 stable, trusting relationship because you're continually just wondering and 01:01:32.139 --> 01:01:34.819 ruminating and worrying and trying to read the room and figure things out. 01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:38.189 Or I look at this in the realm of professional competence. 01:01:38.689 --> 01:01:41.609 A surgeon who constantly questions their training and their abilities 01:01:41.619 --> 01:01:45.249 might hesitate during critical moments when things like confidence. 01:01:45.669 --> 01:01:48.909 Repetition, quick action are necessary for a patient's survival. 01:01:49.709 --> 01:01:50.909 I will end part one here. 01:01:50.959 --> 01:01:52.429 There is so much more to cover. 01:01:52.429 --> 01:01:56.519 We're gonna get into a little bit of a modern paradox about the systems 01:01:56.589 --> 01:02:01.969 that kept us alive, our ancestors alive in maintaining useful beliefs. 01:02:03.284 --> 01:02:05.064 , Now we're causing us to feel a little more stuck. 01:02:05.074 --> 01:02:07.984 We're gonna cover that and a whole lot more on part two. 01:02:08.444 --> 01:02:09.964 But I'll end talking about this 01:02:10.764 --> 01:02:12.084 professional competence. 01:02:12.364 --> 01:02:16.284 I had my surgery follow up, my four month follow up surgical 01:02:16.284 --> 01:02:20.924 appointment for my A CDF spinal surgery, which is doing amazing. 01:02:21.314 --> 01:02:22.534 It's pain-free. 01:02:22.794 --> 01:02:25.774 In fact, to running, walking pushups are a little more difficult than I thought. 01:02:27.024 --> 01:02:30.984 I feel a little something in my throat at times when I move certain ways. 01:02:31.084 --> 01:02:33.824 And I even thought, is this something that I was experiencing before? 01:02:34.244 --> 01:02:37.624 And now I'm just aware of it and I'm trying to make meaning of it. 01:02:38.484 --> 01:02:42.024 So I wasn't even at first gonna ask my surgeon if it really was a thing. 01:02:42.124 --> 01:02:42.994 And I love this. 01:02:43.294 --> 01:02:47.914 And I recorded it so that I could go back and see if my memory was accurate. 01:02:48.714 --> 01:02:50.814 But I said, I'm feeling this thing in my neck. 01:02:50.814 --> 01:02:51.574 It's probably in my head. 01:02:51.574 --> 01:02:51.934 And he just. 01:02:51.967 --> 01:02:54.487 confidently said, oh no, that is absolutely happening. 01:02:54.707 --> 01:02:55.967 He talked about scar tissue. 01:02:55.987 --> 01:03:00.157 We gave this analogy of in the neck or the throat, that it's like a spiderweb. 01:03:00.177 --> 01:03:03.497 So it kinda moves and you can't really grasp it, but then to go 01:03:03.497 --> 01:03:06.857 in and try to address it would then cause more scar tissue. 01:03:06.917 --> 01:03:07.657 So it's there. 01:03:08.457 --> 01:03:09.037 Accept it. 01:03:09.497 --> 01:03:15.517 And I just, I appreciated his confidence and I appreciated his competence and I'm 01:03:15.677 --> 01:03:19.837 creating a bit of a narrative, but I'm grateful that he has . Continued to learn 01:03:19.937 --> 01:03:23.677 and hone his craft and be aware of things that may, maybe he doesn't know, that 01:03:23.677 --> 01:03:27.677 he doesn't know in order to show up with that kind of confidence and presence. 01:03:28.267 --> 01:03:29.957 Alright, thanks for joining me today. 01:03:30.137 --> 01:03:32.557 If you have thoughts or questions about part one, feel free to 01:03:32.557 --> 01:03:34.037 email me or go through my website. 01:03:34.587 --> 01:03:39.752 Tony over bay.com and I would love any of your own experiences of any 01:03:39.752 --> 01:03:42.172 of the concepts we're talking about today, trying to change somebody 01:03:42.172 --> 01:03:44.812 else's mind, or how difficult maybe it has been to change your mind. 01:03:45.092 --> 01:03:48.052 I would really love an example or two, or as many as you're willing to 01:03:48.052 --> 01:03:53.332 send of what was a major belief change for you and how did that come about? 01:03:54.577 --> 01:03:58.757 So send those in and let me know if you're open to me sharing those on a 01:03:58.757 --> 01:04:01.837 future episode and going out as per usual, the wonderful, the talented 01:04:01.837 --> 01:04:03.237 Aurora Florence with her song. 01:04:03.237 --> 01:04:06.997 It's wonderful because I'm telling you it can be whatever it is. 01:04:07.307 --> 01:04:07.957 Have a great week. 01:04:07.957 --> 01:04:09.117 We'll see you next week on the podcast.