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Hey everybody.

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Welcome to another episode
of Virtual Couch Presents.

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I am your host, Tony Overbay.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family
therapist, certified mindful habit

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coach, writer, speaker, husband,
father of four, and, , host of.

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Several podcasts about mental health
relationships, emotional maturity,

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navigating faith, crisis, you name
it, all those wonderful things.

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But today we're gonna dive into a
topic that I, I will guarantee, I'm

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not a big all or nothing guy, but
I believe everyone has experienced

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this, whether you realize it or not.

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So here's a quick
question to start us off.

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Have you ever been in a conversation
where somebody asked you a

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question that the words were words
that sounded like a question?

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And if you were writing this out, there
would be a question mark at the end.

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Technically, it sounded like
they were being curious,

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but something just felt off.

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Like maybe your partner said, so you
really thought that outfit was a good

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choice for dinner with my parents?

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Or your boss asks, I'm very curious
about why you would actually approach

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a client presentation like that
and assume that they would like

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it, that they would appreciate it,
or that you would get that deal.

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Or maybe it was something subtle like a
friend saying, I. So that's your opinion.

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That is fascinating.

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That is interesting.

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Really.

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So that's honestly how you feel.

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Or one of my personal favorites.

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This one is guaranteed to not land well.

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So you already cleaned up this, so
is this like what you call clean?

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So that, that kind of thing.

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I. That's what I wanna talk about
today, the difference between genuine

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curiosity and then performative, or
even defensive questioning because

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I see this so often in my work as a
couple's therapist and just as a human

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being, and I think that understanding
and being genuinely curious can be a

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very big game changer in a relationship.

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Let me start with a story that I
think taught me a lot about curiosity

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and more about what it wasn't.

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It was many, many years ago, I was at
one of my daughter's high school track

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meets, and at that point in my life,
I, I won't say embarrassingly, so, but

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I would say definitely, so my identity
was pretty wrapped up in being a runner.

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Not just the casual one.

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Now I realize what was I running from?

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But this is when I had run over a
hundred marathons and ultra marathons

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and done 24 hour fundraising events
on the high school track to bring

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in money for the local schools.

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And I had competed in the famed
Super Bowl of a hundred milers, the

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Western states, 100 miler, which
was kind of in my backyard at the

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time, around Auburn, California.

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Not once, not twice, but three times.

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And running wasn't just something that I
did, it was really a part of who I was.

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Whenever I would interact with others,
we would pretty much talk about

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running, and I would even sometimes
feign frustration of, oh my gosh, is

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that all that they want to talk about?

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But let me keep talking about it.

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But here I am, I'm standing on
the infield of a track and I'm

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watching the events unfold.

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And a guy that I kind
of knew one of those.

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That in small towns you feel like, you
think, okay, I've seen this guy around.

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I know who he is, but
we've never really talked.

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We just give each other the head
nod and he comes up to me and

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our kids were both running, and
I thought, okay, this is cool.

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Here's a chance to connect.

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Now, while my identity was firmly
planted in being a runner, I was also

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well into now my career as a therapist,
which I truly believe saved my life.

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I can honestly say I believe that I was
genuinely becoming more curious about

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people's experience, and I think that was
part of this cognitive dissonance of my

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identity as a runner, but somewhat feeling
annoyed that that was all we were gonna

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talk about, but probably pretty insecure
that I really wasn't exactly sure what

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else to talk about other than running.

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So I start by asking him about his son.

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How long has his son been running?

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What does he really enjoy?

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What kind of events he enjoys doing
because his kid was a pretty good athlete.

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And then casually, I asked if
this guy was a runner too, and he

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seemed a little bit more bulky,
looked like more of a weightlifter.

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And so honestly I didn't really know.

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And then he lit up and he told
me, oh, I'm, I am a runner.

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And I did a lot of sprints in high school.

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I could have ran in college.

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I love that one, but I don't know,
something, something got in the way.

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And he had done a couple of 10 Ks,
a half marathon and he had tried one

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full marathon but had gotten injured.

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Wasn't his fault.

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Somebody had probably advised
him incorrectly of training.

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I was genuinely curious about a
story, and now I will be honest.

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At that point, there was probably a
small part of me that then hoped he

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would ask me about my running because
it, that was a big part of my identity

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and he did acknowledge it because I
know that he had been at my 24 hour

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fundraising events a time or two, and I
think he had even ran around the track.

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People would come do that with their
kids at odd hours of the night,

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and most of them would usually stop
by say hi, or I would run with him

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for a little bit, but he didn't.

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I remember he would stay on
the opposite end of the track,

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but he did acknowledge that.

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He said, Hey, I know you're a runner,
and, and I thought, okay, here we go.

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This would be nice.

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And then he starts to gimme a lot of
running advice, specifically things

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that he had noticed when I was doing
my 24 hour events, when I had been

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running for 18 hours or so, 20 hours.

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And these were specific tips
on fueling and then pacing.

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And then he started suggesting some
things that I could probably do

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different in the longer ultra marathons.

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I thought to myself, so based on
what, this is gonna sound egotistical

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for a moment, bear with me.

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But based on watching me from the
other side of the track, or maybe

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from the bleachers at those school
fundraising runs, I don't really

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remember exactly what his advice was
because I think I was so, I don't wanna

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say blown away sounds so, so dramatic.

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I think I was just so fascinated that
that just didn't really make much sense

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to me, that my brain kind of glitched.

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I think he named some sort of
food that he thought might help me

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around hour 20 of a 24 hour run.

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And I remember nodding and smiling and
thought, okay, that would probably be

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one of the worst foods that I could eat.

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I don't remember what it was.

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I don't remember if it was, let's say that
it was a curry or something like that.

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Spicy curry, when in reality you're
wanting bland bananas and then gels.

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And as he walked away, he said,
this has been really nice.

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I've always wanted to pick
your brain about running.

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And I remember thinking.

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I don't think my brain was picked.

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I don't think that is what
curiosity actually is.

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I wonder, that feels more like
an insecurity dressed up in

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a curiosity costume, or maybe
that's some emotional immaturity

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or that's a need for validation.

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And let me go on this
tangent for a minute.

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Let's talk about insecurity perhaps,
and I know I'm making assumptions.

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He may have been feeling a little unsure
about his own running identity and

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offering advice may have been his way
of trying to level the playing field.

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So instead of asking about my experience,
he presented himself as somebody who

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probably had something to teach me.

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Now, if we're talking about emotional
immaturity, one of my favorite things

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these days, we, rather than being
comfortable with his position as a

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learner, if he was truly interested
in ultra marathons or someone who

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had his own experiences as a half
marathoner or just basically as

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somebody who ha, who hasn't run ultras.

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Instead, he needed to show up with
something to contribute, even if it meant

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assuming an expert role in a space that he
wasn't trained in, which without knowing.

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I knew immediately based off the things
he was saying, that he honestly didn't

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know what he was talking about, which
did not build trust or connection or

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emotional intimacy between he and I.

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If we look at this like from a validation
seeking standpoint, he might have been

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hoping that I would go, oh my gosh, I
have not thought of spicy Indian curry

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at mile 80 when my stomach is already
being really, really wild or odd.

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That sounds amazing.

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You've got great insights or some way to
make him feel affirmed or maybe make him

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feel like he is an impressive individual.

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Here's the key though.

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None of those are genuinely curious.

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Genuine curiosity asks to understand,
not to be seen as smart or helpful.

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It's more rooted in
openness, not in the outcome.

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And here's one of the big
takeaways that we'll explore today.

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We're gonna talk about emotions
and all kinds of things.

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People feel that difference.

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There's a huge difference between
asking somebody a question to understand

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and asking a question, to defend
yourself, to prove a point, to win

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an argument, or to tee yourself up so
that then you can tell your stories.

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So lemme go back to that.

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People feel the difference.

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I. They may not be able to
put it into words, but their

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nervous system knows what's up.

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Because we are wired for connection,
we're also wired to detect threats.

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And so even a question can feel
like a threat if it's loaded with

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judgment or wrapped up in sarcasm.

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So back to this guy at the
track meet, what he wasn't doing

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was being genuinely curious.

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He was asking questions.

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Again, they would have question marks
after them, but it felt like more

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of just a setup to make a point.

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He was more of a, Hey, let me show you
what I know than, Hey, tell me what it's

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like to do what you've done now as a
therapist, especially when it works with

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couples, I'm even more aware of this
dynamic and lately I've been noticing

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what I'm almost looking at, like a big
old confirmation bias cocktail when

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it comes to how rarely we practice
genuine curiosity in our relationships.

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We're just not that great at
wondering about each other anymore.

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We're really good at talking, talking
at someone, telling them what I think

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that they are feeling or thinking
great at advising, great at correcting,

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but pausing, being genuinely curious,
asking from a place of truly.

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Admitting that I don't know or that I
don't understand, that seems to be really

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difficult because real curiosity I think
requires a few things, requires humility.

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It means admitting that we don't
have the answer, that we have not

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necessarily walked in another person's
shoes, which makes sense because

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they're the only version of them.

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You're the only version of you.

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We have to admit that their experience
might be completely unfamiliar, and I

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think if we're being honest, that can
feel really uncomfortable, especially

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if we are tying our self-worth or if our
self-worth is tangled up in being right

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or being helpful or needing to contribute.

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Here's the secret though, real
connection, I believe, starts

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when you can get rid of certainty.

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Real connection starts
when certainty ends.

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So let's go a little deeper.

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Why is it so hard to be genuinely curious?

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Let's take a look at how that shows
up in our relationships, and then what

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it looks like to lead from humility.

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And we're gonna even talk about different
types of humility instead of from our ego.

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My friend Preston used to say, our ego is
this, this adorable security guard that

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sits on the porch and just protects you.

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But sometimes it's a little overprotective
or it's barking at somebody that

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is not really a threat, because I
think if we're talking about ultra

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marathons or emotional gridlock in
our marriage, one thing is true.

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You cannot guide someone through terrain
that you've never crossed yourself.

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So then why is it so hard to simply
be curious, genuinely curious about

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somebody else's life, that they are
the ones living before jumping in

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with advice or opinions or directions.

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Story time.

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I was in a couple session, it was
just a few days ago, and we were

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talking through some dynamics.

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As the couple started figuring out a
few things, the husband said something

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that honestly I really appreciated.

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He said that he wanted to be called
out on his emotional immaturity

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and that that sounds great.

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It's huge step, but then the very
next line out of his mouth was,

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yeah, and you can call me out.

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I really wanna know what I'm not
getting again, sounds, sounds wonderful.

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But then it got really interesting
after that, I told the couple that I

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really admire when somebody in session
has the courage to say those things.

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Like, Hey, old man, slow
down, or, I lost you there.

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Or, that's a lot of jargon, or, I
honestly don't know what that means.

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You seem pretty excited about it, Mr.

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Therapist, but what am I missing?

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What does that mean to you?

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Because here's what that means to
me, because part of that therapeutic

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process, hopefully if you've got a good
therapist, it's not about them just

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waxing on therapeutic and you are there
to just sit at their feet and learn.

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It's an interactive process.

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So yes, I have a certain set of skills,
I think as Liam Neeson says, but I want

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to understand what you are understanding
or what you're not understanding.

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And I know that that
can take time as well.

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That's vulnerable.

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That is very real.

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But then the husband added, he said,
yeah, because sometimes, and he said,

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no offense, which I love because that
means something that he's about to say.

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He's worried it will be offensive.

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And then the husband adds.

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Yeah, because sometimes I don't
think you realize that you're

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not really making a lot of sense.

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And I thought, okay, that is a fair
point, but let's break it down.

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'cause what I just heard was sometimes
when you are talking that I, your client,

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I actually have a better understanding of
what you are trying to say than you do.

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And therefore I reserve the
right to tell you when you are

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not explaining yourself well.

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And again, on the surface, if you
take out my passive aggressive

00:12:51.574 --> 00:12:53.494
tone, that sounds reasonable.

00:12:53.944 --> 00:12:58.504
But what it feels like is okay, I now
have to work even harder to make sense

00:12:58.504 --> 00:13:05.104
to you on your terms of something
that you may not really understand.

00:13:06.334 --> 00:13:09.994
It's almost like he gets to sit
back and his arms are folded

00:13:10.054 --> 00:13:12.724
and he's saying, no, try again.

00:13:13.084 --> 00:13:17.104
I am gonna actually stay defensive
until you put together the exact

00:13:17.104 --> 00:13:21.394
right combination of words, the facial
expressions and tone that feel good to me.

00:13:21.874 --> 00:13:25.084
And honestly, trust me, I've done
that dance plenty of times when

00:13:25.084 --> 00:13:27.514
it was more about, oh my gosh, I
don't want them to think I'm a bad

00:13:27.514 --> 00:13:28.954
therapist, or I really want validation.

00:13:28.954 --> 00:13:29.704
I want them to tell me.

00:13:30.124 --> 00:13:33.544
The way you explain things is
amazing, but genuine curiosity, it

00:13:33.544 --> 00:13:38.884
requires active participation, not
as some sort of passive resistance.

00:13:39.544 --> 00:13:42.304
You know, it sounds more
like, Hey, help me understand.

00:13:42.814 --> 00:13:45.274
Not necessarily, I don't understand.

00:13:45.844 --> 00:13:49.744
'cause that comes with maybe a side
order of, so keep trying or it looks

00:13:49.744 --> 00:13:51.964
like, okay, what am I not getting?

00:13:52.534 --> 00:13:55.474
Instead of me putting out this
energy, if I'm the client here,

00:13:55.924 --> 00:13:57.274
I need you to keep trying.

00:13:57.274 --> 00:13:59.794
I need you to keep guessing,
almost like a game of charades.

00:13:59.794 --> 00:14:02.134
Until then, I can finally get
it until you make sense to me.

00:14:02.494 --> 00:14:05.134
Because underneath that you
need to make it make sense.

00:14:05.134 --> 00:14:05.674
Energy.

00:14:06.034 --> 00:14:10.474
That's often where the emotional
immaturity lives because that's

00:14:10.474 --> 00:14:13.114
the need to be made to feel better.

00:14:13.204 --> 00:14:15.994
That's the hidden win-win for
the more emotionally immature.

00:14:16.384 --> 00:14:20.164
If I finally say something that clicks
for you, then you get to say, well done.

00:14:20.794 --> 00:14:23.134
You may now comfortably exist
in my presence and we may

00:14:23.134 --> 00:14:25.264
continue, but if I don't.

00:14:25.969 --> 00:14:29.539
If it doesn't land, and that
could even be a variety of things.

00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:33.319
Let's say that you are, are bored, you
are hungry, you are lonely, you are angry,

00:14:33.319 --> 00:14:36.469
you are tired, you are anxious, you're
scrolling through your own emotional

00:14:36.469 --> 00:14:41.269
filters of life, then that could very
well be an impossible task for me.

00:14:41.899 --> 00:14:44.329
Are you genuinely trying to understand me?

00:14:44.689 --> 00:14:49.189
Especially in the case of, let's say
you're going to go visit your Dr. Ele, or

00:14:49.189 --> 00:14:53.269
maybe it's the attorney, the dentist, the
therapist, the auto mechanic, that someone

00:14:53.269 --> 00:14:55.429
that that is what you are going there for.

00:14:56.119 --> 00:15:00.079
There's a somewhat of an assumption
that, okay, they most likely do know

00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:04.099
at least some of what they're talking
about or possibly more than me, the

00:15:04.099 --> 00:15:05.959
person coming to them for their services.

00:15:06.439 --> 00:15:10.609
So now if I'm sitting back saying,
I ultimately need to be made to

00:15:10.609 --> 00:15:15.949
understand and then I am not trying
at all to try and understand, then

00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.589
maybe you can see where all these
other factors can come into play.

00:15:18.589 --> 00:15:20.359
So it could be an impossible task.

00:15:20.419 --> 00:15:21.769
And then here's the kicker.

00:15:22.294 --> 00:15:25.444
Now, if I, let's say as a therapist,
if I get frustrated trying to

00:15:25.444 --> 00:15:29.104
explain myself, now I even look
more like the unstable one.

00:15:29.764 --> 00:15:32.524
Or let's say that you're in a
marriage with an emotionally immature

00:15:32.584 --> 00:15:36.124
partner and they are the ones that
are saying, I still don't get it.

00:15:36.424 --> 00:15:38.584
Keep dancing, keep going, try again.

00:15:38.974 --> 00:15:40.804
Then eventually I may get
frustrated because you're not

00:15:40.864 --> 00:15:42.304
actively trying to understand.

00:15:43.294 --> 00:15:45.964
You actually get to stay
calm, uh, even concerned.

00:15:46.084 --> 00:15:48.844
And it eventually shifts into, geez,
I was just trying to understand you.

00:15:48.844 --> 00:15:50.164
Sorry for caring, nevermind.

00:15:50.614 --> 00:15:54.394
And now you, the person in that
position of trying to explain to the

00:15:54.394 --> 00:15:56.194
person who is not genuinely curious.

00:15:56.854 --> 00:15:59.914
Now you start to feel like the crazy one.

00:16:00.724 --> 00:16:05.104
And now the person that is not
actively participating or actively

00:16:05.104 --> 00:16:07.894
being genuinely curious, now
you get to look like the victim.

00:16:08.314 --> 00:16:13.204
So what does the person that is trying
to explain in a way that you will

00:16:13.204 --> 00:16:15.244
understand, what will they eventually do?

00:16:15.244 --> 00:16:16.504
Then they will apologize.

00:16:17.044 --> 00:16:17.404
Okay.

00:16:17.404 --> 00:16:17.944
No, you're right.

00:16:17.944 --> 00:16:18.394
I'm sorry.

00:16:18.394 --> 00:16:19.744
I, I'm just losing my Cool.

00:16:20.074 --> 00:16:21.334
Without really understanding that it's.

00:16:21.709 --> 00:16:25.639
I'm continually trying to explain
something to you that I don't view

00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:29.089
you as trying to genuinely understand.

00:16:29.329 --> 00:16:32.749
So this is a bit of a fool's
errand, but then that person,

00:16:32.839 --> 00:16:34.639
typically I would then apologize.

00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:37.729
You would forgive me, and you
stay in that one-up position.

00:16:38.209 --> 00:16:42.139
And then before we even try to have
another hopefully real intimate

00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:46.009
conversation, you may have already
planted the landmine of, Hey, uh, can

00:16:46.009 --> 00:16:49.009
you just promise me you won't freak out
this time like you did last time when all

00:16:49.009 --> 00:16:50.569
I was trying to do was understand you.

00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:54.889
And then that just sends the other
person walking into the conversation

00:16:54.889 --> 00:16:58.909
with just a big old backpack full
of, of anticipatory rejection.

00:16:59.029 --> 00:17:00.559
And that cycle will continue.

00:17:00.589 --> 00:17:01.489
So back to this couple.

00:17:01.699 --> 00:17:04.429
So I brought a little more than
gentle awareness to the fact that

00:17:04.429 --> 00:17:08.869
it's actually more of his job, or,
and, and it would mean more to him.

00:17:08.869 --> 00:17:14.809
It would resonate more to him if he can
be the one that can ask for clarification.

00:17:14.809 --> 00:17:20.659
I. Now if I sense that either of them in
this couple setting detaches shuts down,

00:17:20.659 --> 00:17:24.919
looks confused 'cause I am reading body
language, then absolutely I'll check in.

00:17:24.919 --> 00:17:28.909
I might ask, Hey, I noticed a a
little sudden shift in energy, or it

00:17:28.909 --> 00:17:30.469
appears that you shut down right now.

00:17:30.979 --> 00:17:34.189
Tell me what you're hearing or help
me understand what does that mean

00:17:34.189 --> 00:17:36.199
to you now that's part of my job.

00:17:36.949 --> 00:17:38.509
Here's where the real
growth happens though.

00:17:38.959 --> 00:17:43.039
It takes courage to be vulnerable
for that person in that chair that

00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:44.089
is interacting with a therapist.

00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.169
Or if you're the person and you
are talking with someone and you

00:17:48.169 --> 00:17:53.299
really don't understand, to be able
to say, I don't know, especially

00:17:53.389 --> 00:17:54.799
when you think you should know.

00:17:55.429 --> 00:18:01.429
And again, nobody likes to be should
on, especially shoulding on themselves.

00:18:01.429 --> 00:18:05.809
Which, speaking of running, I don't
know why this just came to mind.

00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:09.859
Well, actually, because I'm talking about
shoulding on oneself, I. An unfortunate

00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:13.909
trail pooping incident somewhere around
mile 90 of this aforementioned, famed

00:18:13.909 --> 00:18:15.919
Western states, 100 mile endurance run.

00:18:15.919 --> 00:18:17.659
I believe it was the second
year that I ever ran.

00:18:17.989 --> 00:18:22.159
I came upon a runner who was, he was
squatting right next to the trail,

00:18:22.159 --> 00:18:24.499
but he was yelling, look, look.

00:18:24.589 --> 00:18:28.219
And I thought, okay, honestly, I'd
rather not because I, it appears

00:18:28.219 --> 00:18:32.029
that he's doing his business and not
even that successfully right now.

00:18:32.029 --> 00:18:33.109
But man, I hear you brother.

00:18:33.139 --> 00:18:34.609
We're in this together 90 miles.

00:18:34.609 --> 00:18:35.659
There's a number on those quads.

00:18:35.659 --> 00:18:36.109
Am I right?

00:18:36.739 --> 00:18:40.609
But it turns out he was actually
screaming, don't look to which I thought,

00:18:40.609 --> 00:18:43.969
well then honestly, don't drop your
compression shorts a half an inch off of

00:18:43.969 --> 00:18:46.009
a six inch mile rudded single track trail.

00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:47.329
But I digress.

00:18:47.329 --> 00:18:50.839
Anyway, back to the point, are you
actually trying to understand, maybe

00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:55.819
you're even trying to understand
why did I just tell that story or.

00:18:56.539 --> 00:19:00.199
You might even be trying to make
someone else rearrange their words until

00:19:00.199 --> 00:19:01.819
you feel good about what they said.

00:19:02.419 --> 00:19:06.679
I would just love to challenge you
to be more aware of the difference.

00:19:06.949 --> 00:19:10.219
That is where the growth begins,
because let's talk about real curiosity.

00:19:10.429 --> 00:19:13.099
Real curiosity requires self-regulation.

00:19:13.459 --> 00:19:17.359
Let's start here because without this
piece of self-regulation, curiosity

00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.989
doesn't even stand a chance because
real curiosity, it requires you to

00:19:20.989 --> 00:19:23.149
be able to calm your own anxiety.

00:19:23.179 --> 00:19:24.109
Soothe yourself.

00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:29.449
If you can't manage that inner
urge to just react, defend iup,

00:19:29.479 --> 00:19:34.429
correct or educate the other
person, then curiosity is hijacked.

00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:36.049
It gets swallowed up by reactivity.

00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:40.279
I'm a big fan of David Shana's work
of his four points of balance, of

00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:44.389
differentiation, and his second
point of balance is really important,

00:19:44.809 --> 00:19:46.129
and it comes into play here.

00:19:46.429 --> 00:19:47.869
Quiet mind and calm heart.

00:19:48.499 --> 00:19:51.679
If you're not familiar with S'S model
of differentiation of self, it is all

00:19:51.679 --> 00:19:56.359
about being able to hold onto your
autonomy, your own sense of self in

00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.889
close emotional connection with others,
especially when there's tension because

00:20:00.919 --> 00:20:06.529
it is much easier, but you're losing your
sense of self when you just acquiesce.

00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.069
You give in, you fold into what
the other person wants you to

00:20:10.069 --> 00:20:11.569
do to make them feel better.

00:20:11.749 --> 00:20:15.289
Differentiation is that ability
to stay you without needing the

00:20:15.289 --> 00:20:19.309
other person to become a mirror
or a validator of your self-worth.

00:20:20.299 --> 00:20:22.159
And let me take one step back.

00:20:22.159 --> 00:20:25.999
The first point of balance that of
Shen's, four points of balance of

00:20:25.999 --> 00:20:30.289
being differentiated is having a
solid but flexible sense of self.

00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:35.689
You know who you are, what you
value, what you stand for, and you're

00:20:35.689 --> 00:20:37.579
not rigid or reactive about it.

00:20:38.629 --> 00:20:42.919
You move away from this need for
others to tell you you're okay.

00:20:43.069 --> 00:20:47.899
That concept of external validation, the
second point of balance, quiet mind and

00:20:47.899 --> 00:20:52.039
calm heart is what allows you to stay
in connection with others, even when you

00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:53.659
start to become emotionally activated.

00:20:54.199 --> 00:20:57.139
'cause you can calm your own
nervous system without needing

00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.269
the other person to do it for you.

00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:01.399
I don't need them to tell me it's okay.

00:21:01.939 --> 00:21:04.489
'cause I, I can tell myself it's okay.

00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:05.719
I can ground myself.

00:21:05.719 --> 00:21:07.759
I can come into the present moment.

00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.019
I can build in that pause because
that paves the way for arch's.

00:21:12.049 --> 00:21:14.989
Third point of balance of differentiation,
which is a grounded response.

00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:17.419
That's where you can
stay emotionally present.

00:21:17.419 --> 00:21:20.389
You can show up honestly, and
you can respond instead of react.

00:21:20.719 --> 00:21:22.519
You don't have to go too big.

00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:25.039
But also you don't have to play small.

00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.839
You can respond.

00:21:26.899 --> 00:21:29.149
You can come from this
place where you are.

00:21:29.149 --> 00:21:29.599
Okay.

00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.589
So you know, it is okay for you
to stay in this conversation.

00:21:34.399 --> 00:21:37.309
So then if we're talking
again about genuine curiosity.

00:21:37.939 --> 00:21:43.699
This is sort of the engine self-regulation
creates this pause, and in that pause,

00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.769
that's where you can notice, you can
say, okay, I'm feeling defensive, but

00:21:48.769 --> 00:21:53.779
I wonder what they're really trying
to say versus what I am thinking.

00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:55.609
I am hearing the assumptions I'm making.

00:21:55.789 --> 00:21:59.839
Or that pause is where you can say, I'm
noticing this feels like an attack, but

00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.619
maybe they're hurting and or maybe it is.

00:22:03.739 --> 00:22:07.489
Honestly, I am just misunderstanding
what might be happening here underneath.

00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:11.989
It's not necessarily about the
literal words, but more about just

00:22:11.989 --> 00:22:16.489
this energy or this feeling that I
have that's not being passive, that

00:22:16.489 --> 00:22:18.409
is an internal type of strength.

00:22:19.244 --> 00:22:23.414
So I've been on two cruises in my
entire life and I, I loved them both.

00:22:23.474 --> 00:22:26.894
You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me
and suddenly I am floating through life

00:22:27.224 --> 00:22:31.634
with soft serve ice cream in one hand
and absolutely no idea what day it is.

00:22:31.684 --> 00:22:34.174
, In the other, I guess you're not
holding that in your hand, but

00:22:34.234 --> 00:22:36.214
regardless, it is a perfect reset.

00:22:36.874 --> 00:22:37.654
And I also.

00:22:37.999 --> 00:22:40.159
Absolutely love what I do as a therapist.

00:22:40.249 --> 00:22:44.149
So when you put me on a cruise with
people who would like to talk about

00:22:44.509 --> 00:22:48.259
things like mental health or parenting or
relationships or faith crisis or emotional

00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:53.209
immaturity, or A DHD, that along with
the soft serve is my dream vacation.

00:22:53.719 --> 00:22:56.749
So if you were to see me on one
of these cruises and you have a

00:22:56.749 --> 00:23:01.279
question, you are absolutely not
bugging me and true I'm diagnosing

00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.139
you, but it's in the most lovable way.

00:23:03.664 --> 00:23:09.454
Now that is why I am truly excited to
be the special guest on the ICU Living

00:23:09.454 --> 00:23:14.404
Cruise, a five night Western Caribbean
cruise, January 24th through the 29th.

00:23:14.974 --> 00:23:20.104
2026, with my good friend and
Cruise Mastermind headliner.

00:23:20.104 --> 00:23:24.214
And I guess we could technically say
maybe cruise director Julie de Jesus.

00:23:24.454 --> 00:23:25.264
And this is.

00:23:25.569 --> 00:23:29.199
Honestly the best of all worlds because
you're gonna be able to get away from the

00:23:29.199 --> 00:23:33.399
day-to-day grind, connect with people who
care about personal growth, uh, mental

00:23:33.399 --> 00:23:35.259
health, all the things that really matter.

00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:37.779
Plus again, you've got
ice cream, lava cake.

00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.309
So whether you're working on your mental
health or your relationship or looking to

00:23:42.309 --> 00:23:46.089
just boost your resilience, or you just
need an excuse to finally take a vacation,

00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:48.459
this cruise is exactly what you need.

00:23:48.729 --> 00:23:52.899
, And parents, good news, kids set sail
on this one for free, so you don't

00:23:52.899 --> 00:23:54.099
even have to hunt down a babysitter.

00:23:54.739 --> 00:24:01.249
So go to julie de jesus.com/cruise, or
you can look in the show notes of this

00:24:01.249 --> 00:24:05.959
podcast episode or in my link tree or
anywhere to get all of the details.

00:24:05.959 --> 00:24:07.429
You can lock in your early bird special.

00:24:07.429 --> 00:24:10.069
You can reserve your spot
for some exclusive dining and

00:24:10.069 --> 00:24:11.989
conversation with Julie and me.

00:24:12.229 --> 00:24:15.619
You can bring your spouse, bring a
partner, your friends, any of your

00:24:15.619 --> 00:24:18.409
favorite overthinkers, or just bring
yourself, we would love to have you there.

00:24:18.580 --> 00:24:19.840
Let's go with a couple of examples.

00:24:19.840 --> 00:24:20.800
Let's start in a marriage.

00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:22.510
If your partner says,
you never listen to me.

00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:26.170
If your initial reaction
is, are you kidding me?

00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:26.890
I always listen.

00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:29.260
I matter of fact, you're
the one that doesn't listen.

00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:31.180
I think you're just
being overly sensitive.

00:24:31.975 --> 00:24:32.995
It's pretty obvious.

00:24:33.025 --> 00:24:33.925
That's reactive.

00:24:34.195 --> 00:24:36.715
That's trying to protect yourself
rather than understand them.

00:24:37.075 --> 00:24:39.265
That is coming from a
place of being offended.

00:24:39.775 --> 00:24:44.005
But if you've built your, this
self-regulation muscle, that's

00:24:44.005 --> 00:24:47.905
where you get to take a a breath
ground yourself, pause, and then,

00:24:47.935 --> 00:24:50.935
okay, can you help me understand
what you're feeling unheard about?

00:24:51.535 --> 00:24:56.425
Now, you've shifted from defensiveness
to curiosity, and that opens a door

00:24:56.815 --> 00:24:59.635
for connection, for more communication.

00:25:00.055 --> 00:25:01.885
Or think of this in
the terms of parenting.

00:25:02.155 --> 00:25:04.255
If your teenager says, you know what?

00:25:04.315 --> 00:25:05.815
Nobody in this family even cares about me.

00:25:05.815 --> 00:25:06.805
You guys all stink.

00:25:07.225 --> 00:25:10.345
Then you might wanna say,
really, none of us care for you.

00:25:10.525 --> 00:25:11.995
Please, we do everything for you.

00:25:12.055 --> 00:25:13.435
Who pays for your car insurance?

00:25:13.645 --> 00:25:14.515
Who pays for your phone?

00:25:14.875 --> 00:25:15.835
That's just ridiculous.

00:25:16.795 --> 00:25:19.225
That is not going to build connection.

00:25:19.225 --> 00:25:22.105
That is not gonna provide emotional
consistency, emotional safety,

00:25:22.285 --> 00:25:25.195
secure attachment for your kid
to learn how to grow and thrive.

00:25:26.035 --> 00:25:29.275
But with self-regulation in place,
and you build that pause in,

00:25:29.635 --> 00:25:32.125
you do feel this rising anxiety.

00:25:32.215 --> 00:25:35.995
I'm noticing that, that I am
starting to get a little frustrated.

00:25:36.355 --> 00:25:39.655
But then you don't let that
hijack or steer the conversation.

00:25:40.465 --> 00:25:43.585
You might then be able to find yourself
saying something like, Hey, that, and that

00:25:43.585 --> 00:25:45.025
sounds like a pretty heavy thing to feel.

00:25:45.625 --> 00:25:46.375
Help me understand.

00:25:46.495 --> 00:25:47.365
Take me on your train of thought.

00:25:47.365 --> 00:25:49.375
What's happening that's
made you feel that way?

00:25:49.375 --> 00:25:51.505
Like none of us really
understand or support you.

00:25:52.330 --> 00:25:54.220
You have then created a moment of safety.

00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:59.800
Now, does it guarantee that the teenager
will melt and some really cool music plays

00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:03.100
in the background, and then you have a
connection and you eventually hug it out?

00:26:03.190 --> 00:26:06.400
Not necessarily, but you are
starting to provide consistency.

00:26:06.490 --> 00:26:07.780
You've created a moment of safety.

00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:10.270
You've made space for
a deeper conversation.

00:26:10.270 --> 00:26:14.920
That's the gift of this self-regulation,
paired with genuine curiosity.

00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:16.870
Plus, you're modeling
that for your kid as well.

00:26:17.620 --> 00:26:19.750
Curiosity requires humility.

00:26:20.560 --> 00:26:22.150
This is a pretty important piece.

00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:28.870
Now, let's define humility, because I'm
so curious what that means to you, because

00:26:29.320 --> 00:26:31.930
humility in my opinion, is not weakness.

00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:32.710
It's not.

00:26:33.355 --> 00:26:34.225
Being passive.

00:26:34.315 --> 00:26:37.735
It's not about being walked on
or being a pushover, and it's

00:26:37.735 --> 00:26:41.185
definitely not the, we'll call it the
victim energy version of humility.

00:26:41.185 --> 00:26:43.375
That sounds like, oh, I
guess I'm just an idiot.

00:26:43.375 --> 00:26:44.215
I guess I'm just stupid.

00:26:44.485 --> 00:26:46.975
I know I shouldn't be thinking
that I never get anything right,

00:26:47.065 --> 00:26:49.165
or, Hey, I'm so sorry again.

00:26:49.195 --> 00:26:50.335
I know I'm probably wrong.

00:26:50.695 --> 00:26:52.015
That's not humility.

00:26:52.075 --> 00:26:54.205
I really believe that's
more like a shield.

00:26:54.535 --> 00:26:58.225
It's a disarming tactic, and it's often
used by the more emotionally mature people

00:26:58.225 --> 00:27:02.695
to avoid accountability or to elicit
some sort of reassurance or validation.

00:27:03.115 --> 00:27:05.245
It may sound humble.

00:27:05.275 --> 00:27:09.355
It might even feel somewhat humble,
but it actually places the burden back

00:27:09.445 --> 00:27:13.975
on the other person to now comfort
and validate or tiptoe real humility.

00:27:14.395 --> 00:27:17.575
The kind that comes from differentiation,
the kind that leads to genuine

00:27:17.575 --> 00:27:22.285
curiosity looks like someone who
says, Hey, I didn't know that.

00:27:22.825 --> 00:27:23.725
Thank you for explaining.

00:27:23.725 --> 00:27:24.685
I really appreciate that.

00:27:24.955 --> 00:27:26.455
Or, Hey, you're right.

00:27:26.635 --> 00:27:28.285
That's my misunderstanding.

00:27:28.285 --> 00:27:28.975
That's my bad.

00:27:29.395 --> 00:27:29.875
Or.

00:27:30.550 --> 00:27:34.150
I can really see how that landed a
lot differently than I had intended.

00:27:34.330 --> 00:27:38.080
And I, I am so sorry that that
came out the way that it did.

00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:40.060
But thank you for bringing
that to my attention.

00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:44.860
That version of humility is more from
a place of strength and confidence.

00:27:44.950 --> 00:27:45.940
It builds trust.

00:27:46.420 --> 00:27:50.680
'cause when you can admit that you
are a human being, imperfect, growing,

00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:54.910
learning, the other person starts to
feel safer to be those things too.

00:27:55.300 --> 00:27:58.840
And in relationships, that really
starts to become a turning point.

00:27:59.350 --> 00:28:02.290
Humility says, my ego doesn't
need to win this round.

00:28:02.410 --> 00:28:03.850
I would rather understand you.

00:28:04.510 --> 00:28:07.840
And this is, we're in this relationship
for the long haul, and I'm secure

00:28:07.840 --> 00:28:09.130
enough, or I'm working on it.

00:28:09.520 --> 00:28:13.480
To not know something and not
believe that you are now going to

00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:14.890
run away screaming and leave me.

00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:19.660
That's a doorway to connection, a
doorway to intimacy and curiosity.

00:28:20.110 --> 00:28:22.420
Curiosity lives on the
other side of that door.

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:28.450
Curiosity also requires a secure sense
of self, that first point of balance.

00:28:29.290 --> 00:28:30.130
David Arch's.

00:28:30.550 --> 00:28:34.060
Four points of balance of differentiation,
because the truth is you will hear things

00:28:34.060 --> 00:28:35.650
like, oh, I thought everybody knew that.

00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:38.440
T, which there's gonna be
a defensive answer to that.

00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:39.520
No, no, we don't.

00:28:39.520 --> 00:28:43.300
All I'm sure there are things that
you don't know as well, and when

00:28:43.300 --> 00:28:47.890
one is truly secure in themselves,
their response may sound something

00:28:47.890 --> 00:28:49.720
like, oh no, I didn't know that.

00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:51.160
Period.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.800
Guilt and shame.

00:28:54.520 --> 00:28:57.640
I am often impressed more by the people
who tell me that they actually don't

00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.460
know the difference, because that's okay.

00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:06.940
Guilt, I have done something
wrong or bad shame I am bad.

00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:12.970
Even though to me personally, they're
so significantly different that.

00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:17.380
It truly is something that I, I
truly wish that everyone knew and

00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:22.120
understood because I don't believe
that shame is productive at all.

00:29:22.330 --> 00:29:26.470
I haven't worked with anyone where shame
has been the true driver of change.

00:29:26.470 --> 00:29:32.440
Even though we continually shame ourselves
or come from a place of shame because

00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:37.120
we think that that must be what will
help, if shame was healing well, then

00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:40.330
we would all be healed because we're
really good at beating ourselves up.

00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.250
Genuine curiosity requires a
willingness to not be the expert.

00:29:45.790 --> 00:29:49.180
I often refer back to this article that
I've shared from Eleanor Greenberg from

00:29:49.180 --> 00:29:52.840
Psychology today.com titled The Truth
About Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

00:29:53.290 --> 00:29:56.140
And what I think is fascinating
is she talked about something that

00:29:56.170 --> 00:30:01.390
probably sounds pretty crazy right
now, and that is when there was a view

00:30:01.390 --> 00:30:03.550
or a concept of healthy narcissism.

00:30:03.850 --> 00:30:08.140
So I like co-opting her definition
of normal healthy narcissism.

00:30:08.290 --> 00:30:12.310
And I'm gonna insert instead of the
word narcissism, ego, and then we'll

00:30:12.310 --> 00:30:13.540
talk about the opposite of that.

00:30:13.870 --> 00:30:17.770
And I think you can see where one is
gonna lead to genuine curiosity and the

00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:20.830
other not so much normal healthy ego.

00:30:21.385 --> 00:30:23.965
This is a realistic sense
of positive self regard.

00:30:23.965 --> 00:30:26.335
That's based on the person's
actual accomplishments.

00:30:26.995 --> 00:30:30.535
It's relatively stable because the
person has assimilated into their

00:30:30.535 --> 00:30:34.375
self-image, their successes that
came as a result of their actual hard

00:30:34.375 --> 00:30:36.415
work to overcome real life obstacles.

00:30:37.255 --> 00:30:40.525
And because it's based on real
achievements, normal, healthy ego,

00:30:40.855 --> 00:30:44.065
it's relatively impervious to the
minor slights and setbacks that we

00:30:44.065 --> 00:30:45.475
all experience as we go through life.

00:30:46.285 --> 00:30:51.115
Normal healthy ego causes us to care
about ourselves, do things that are

00:30:51.115 --> 00:30:54.115
in our real self-interest, and it's
associated with genuine self-respect.

00:30:54.535 --> 00:30:57.715
One can think of it as
something that is inside of us.

00:30:58.615 --> 00:31:02.725
Why I think that is significant is that
when you can start to operate from this

00:31:02.725 --> 00:31:07.495
place of, I know what I know because
I have really worked hard to know it.

00:31:08.185 --> 00:31:12.265
Then that also comes with, so there
are obviously things I don't know.

00:31:12.865 --> 00:31:16.165
I don't know them because I
don't know them, and it's okay

00:31:16.495 --> 00:31:20.755
to not know everything, and that
can lead to me being curious.

00:31:20.935 --> 00:31:25.585
What it also leads to over time is while
I say, Hey, this is something I, I know

00:31:26.485 --> 00:31:28.285
I am also leaving the door open to.

00:31:28.345 --> 00:31:32.425
I learned about this thing that I know
from a time when I didn't know it.

00:31:32.845 --> 00:31:37.735
So I'm reserving the right to continue
to learn and know more, but I'm gonna,

00:31:38.395 --> 00:31:40.975
but I'm gonna stand in this healthy
ego of the things I know, and I'm gonna

00:31:40.975 --> 00:31:42.415
acknowledge the things I don't know.

00:31:43.255 --> 00:31:46.825
The opposite of Healthy ego from
this truth about Narcissistic

00:31:46.825 --> 00:31:50.815
Personality Disorder article is
pathological defensive narcissism.

00:31:51.385 --> 00:31:53.575
This is a defense against
feelings of inferiority.

00:31:54.085 --> 00:31:57.955
The person dawns a mask of arrogant
superiority in an attempt to convince

00:31:57.955 --> 00:31:59.665
the world that he or she is special.

00:32:00.580 --> 00:32:04.630
But inside the person feels very insecure
about his or her actual self-worth.

00:32:05.260 --> 00:32:09.280
And this facade of superiority is so
thin that it's like a helium balloon.

00:32:09.670 --> 00:32:13.900
One small pin prick is gonna deflate it,
and this makes the person hypersensitive

00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:17.650
to minor slights that somebody with
healthy ego wouldn't even notice.

00:32:18.250 --> 00:32:22.210
So instead, somebody with this type of
defensive narcissism is easily wounded.

00:32:22.750 --> 00:32:26.440
They frequently take any form of
disagreement as a serious criticism,

00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:30.310
and they are likely to lash out
and devalue anybody who they

00:32:30.310 --> 00:32:31.690
think is disagreeing with them.

00:32:32.170 --> 00:32:34.600
They're constantly on guard
trying to protect their status.

00:32:35.080 --> 00:32:37.690
Pathological narcissism can be
thought of as a protective armor

00:32:37.690 --> 00:32:38.800
that is on the outside of us.

00:32:39.130 --> 00:32:41.320
The significance is the
opposite of healthy ego.

00:32:41.320 --> 00:32:45.580
This pathological defensive narcissism
is from a deep well of insecurity.

00:32:46.150 --> 00:32:49.300
If I think that I am supposed to know
something about everything, or you

00:32:49.300 --> 00:32:53.285
will think less of me, or you will
abandon me, or you will lead me, I.

00:32:53.875 --> 00:32:56.785
Then I'm gonna make things up
and hope that it goes over well.

00:32:56.785 --> 00:32:59.395
But over time, it does
not build connection.

00:32:59.485 --> 00:33:02.965
It does not build genuine
intimacy between humans when they

00:33:02.965 --> 00:33:04.135
try to communicate or connect.

00:33:04.975 --> 00:33:10.165
And healthy ego comes from a
place of competence of security.

00:33:10.795 --> 00:33:16.465
And I think this ties into this concept
of curiosity, because when someone, they

00:33:16.465 --> 00:33:20.545
lack curiosity, it's typically coming
from this place of insecurity because they

00:33:20.545 --> 00:33:26.455
are afraid to ask questions because they
may have to admit that they don't know

00:33:26.455 --> 00:33:32.605
something, or that this other person might
have a knowledge or a trait or some talent

00:33:33.355 --> 00:33:35.875
that is different than the person asking.

00:33:36.265 --> 00:33:39.535
And when we dip into the world of
true emotional immaturity, even

00:33:39.685 --> 00:33:42.835
getting into the world of narcissistic
traits, tendencies, and personality

00:33:42.835 --> 00:33:47.155
disorder, the problem here is that
when someone has an opinion that

00:33:47.155 --> 00:33:49.435
is different than yours, then.

00:33:50.215 --> 00:33:54.085
From this immature place, they think
that they are right and I am wrong, as if

00:33:54.085 --> 00:33:55.915
there is only one opinion that can be had.

00:33:55.975 --> 00:33:59.095
So now they must defend their
opinion and break down mine.

00:34:00.055 --> 00:34:01.105
So back to curiosity.

00:34:01.915 --> 00:34:04.435
Hopefully you're starting to
pick up on this vibe that it's

00:34:04.435 --> 00:34:06.205
not just a nice trait to have.

00:34:06.205 --> 00:34:07.885
It's not just something to think about.

00:34:07.885 --> 00:34:08.785
Every once in a while.

00:34:09.145 --> 00:34:12.445
It, it's not something that,
Hey, we value this in small kids.

00:34:12.445 --> 00:34:15.805
They're just so darn curious before the
life's knock, the wind outta their sails.

00:34:16.225 --> 00:34:18.715
It's actually a milestone
of, of emotional maturity.

00:34:19.585 --> 00:34:23.965
When we are stuck in this place of
emotional immaturity, when we're

00:34:23.965 --> 00:34:27.565
operating from these younger,
frozen parts of ourselves, then

00:34:27.565 --> 00:34:29.485
curiosity feels scary or dangerous.

00:34:29.485 --> 00:34:31.975
It feels like saying, if I say, I
don't know, that could open the door

00:34:31.975 --> 00:34:34.165
to judgment, rejection, feeling small.

00:34:34.315 --> 00:34:37.405
So instead, I'm gonna pretend to
know, and I'm gonna fill the space.

00:34:37.405 --> 00:34:39.115
I'm gonna emotionally filibuster.

00:34:39.115 --> 00:34:42.385
I'm gonna explain, I'm gonna
advise, I'm gonna narrate, and I'm

00:34:42.385 --> 00:34:45.025
gonna try to control the moment
often without even realizing it.

00:34:45.925 --> 00:34:49.765
The truth is real curiosity
comes from a place of security.

00:34:50.275 --> 00:34:52.975
If you are interacting with someone
and they are being genuinely curious,

00:34:53.035 --> 00:34:55.225
that is somebody that is pretty secure.

00:34:56.155 --> 00:34:59.305
You cannot be genuinely curious
and then desperate to protect

00:34:59.305 --> 00:35:00.955
your ego at the same time.

00:35:01.795 --> 00:35:03.565
Now, let's talk emotion.

00:35:03.595 --> 00:35:07.945
It's important to recognize emotion
is not the opposite of reason.

00:35:08.575 --> 00:35:13.255
Emotion actually provides us the
information that then reason can use.

00:35:14.425 --> 00:35:15.325
Let's get a little nerdy.

00:35:15.445 --> 00:35:20.125
Modern neuroscience shows that emotions
are processed in the brain even before

00:35:20.125 --> 00:35:21.715
the thoughts are they fire faster.

00:35:22.555 --> 00:35:25.315
Before we even have a chance to
rationalize something, we've already

00:35:25.315 --> 00:35:27.445
felt it and often we've reacted to it.

00:35:28.075 --> 00:35:31.855
I love the example of walking down a
road and seeing something outta the

00:35:31.855 --> 00:35:36.895
corner of my eye that is just a, a
length, a long object and we react.

00:35:36.925 --> 00:35:40.015
A visceral reaction of, well,
oh my gosh, is that a snake?

00:35:40.135 --> 00:35:41.215
And nope, that's a stick.

00:35:41.815 --> 00:35:45.145
That is miraculous that I was
already reacting before I even

00:35:45.145 --> 00:35:46.705
had an idea of what that was.

00:35:47.695 --> 00:35:53.635
So here comes the psychology Nerd alert
and a now pretty famous 2008 study

00:35:53.965 --> 00:35:58.225
neuroscientist John Dillon Haynes and
his team at the Max Plank Institute

00:35:58.585 --> 00:36:03.385
used functional MRI technology,
FMRI, brain scans to explore the

00:36:03.385 --> 00:36:05.065
timing of human decision making.

00:36:05.305 --> 00:36:08.785
So the big question they had was,
when do we actually make a decision?

00:36:09.385 --> 00:36:13.525
Is it in the moment that we think that
we've decided or does the brain decide?

00:36:13.975 --> 00:36:17.125
Before we're even aware, participants
in this study were asked to

00:36:17.125 --> 00:36:19.615
press a button with their left
or right hand, whichever one.

00:36:19.615 --> 00:36:24.475
They felt the urge and the researchers
with these brain scan devices

00:36:24.505 --> 00:36:28.045
connected, watched what was happening
in their brains in real time.

00:36:28.045 --> 00:36:29.515
And this is just so Wild.

00:36:30.145 --> 00:36:34.525
Haynes team found that the brain showed
patterns that were predicting the person's

00:36:34.525 --> 00:36:39.055
choice up to seven seconds before they
consciously reported making the decision.

00:36:39.925 --> 00:36:41.275
Just kinda let that one
sink in a little bit.

00:36:41.275 --> 00:36:43.405
Your brain is already leaning one way.

00:36:43.495 --> 00:36:46.885
It's already preparing to
act before you're consciously

00:36:46.885 --> 00:36:48.190
aware that you've decided.

00:36:48.655 --> 00:36:53.245
So in other words, the body, your nervous
system, your emotional center, knew first.

00:36:53.725 --> 00:36:56.785
So when we say that emotions
are faster than thoughts, we're

00:36:56.785 --> 00:36:58.225
not just talking metaphorically.

00:36:58.525 --> 00:37:01.495
Your brain is already processing,
reacting, queuing up, shaping

00:37:01.495 --> 00:37:02.905
behavior before your thinking.

00:37:02.905 --> 00:37:06.385
Brain may even catch up,
and that's why curiosity.

00:37:06.835 --> 00:37:10.285
And slowing things down is so powerful.

00:37:10.285 --> 00:37:14.305
It's so necessary because most
of the time we're reacting before

00:37:14.305 --> 00:37:15.955
we're even aware that we've reacted.

00:37:16.915 --> 00:37:20.935
So being aware of that and learning
to build in that pause, to notice that

00:37:20.935 --> 00:37:26.095
I'm starting to react, and then taking
that time, building that space in to

00:37:26.095 --> 00:37:28.675
then even be curious with myself first.

00:37:28.705 --> 00:37:29.365
Ooh, check that out.

00:37:29.365 --> 00:37:32.035
I was about to say this thing,
but now I'm gonna put that aside.

00:37:32.245 --> 00:37:35.605
Step outside of my ego,
and now ask questions.

00:37:36.505 --> 00:37:39.955
Now let's talk about some emotions,
because emotions are not all the same.

00:37:40.255 --> 00:37:42.745
They do show up in layers, primary,
secondary, and one that I haven't

00:37:42.775 --> 00:37:44.185
really talked about, instrumental.

00:37:44.425 --> 00:37:45.385
So primary emotions.

00:37:45.505 --> 00:37:48.415
Those are these gut, real
time, raw responses to life.

00:37:48.415 --> 00:37:52.405
They are often about survival or
expressing something that's very important

00:37:52.405 --> 00:37:56.005
that's been impacted, like sadness
from loss or fear from threat are even

00:37:56.005 --> 00:37:57.595
anger when a boundary's been crossed.

00:37:58.315 --> 00:38:01.345
Secondary emotions come from then
how we interpret those primary

00:38:01.345 --> 00:38:02.515
feelings, how we react to 'em.

00:38:02.515 --> 00:38:07.405
Often they're layered on top, like shame,
on top of sadness or anger on top of fear.

00:38:07.930 --> 00:38:11.320
The example I love on this one is when
my kids would scare me when they were

00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:14.920
little, if they jumped out and scared
me, and I was like, geez, guys, come on.

00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:18.310
And I expressed anger that's actually
more of a secondary emotion to

00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:22.450
embarrassment, that these tiny little
human beings just made me lose my mind

00:38:22.450 --> 00:38:24.460
and potentially drop or spill something.

00:38:25.450 --> 00:38:28.120
But these secondary emotions,
they're the emotions that we learn

00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:31.630
or we absorb based on how safe we
feel expressing what's underneath.

00:38:31.930 --> 00:38:38.890
I cannot stop the jokes on in my
inner monologue, and I know that humor

00:38:38.890 --> 00:38:40.420
is typically a secondary emotion.

00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:44.980
That's why so many comedians have a
little bit of a, maybe a, a darker,

00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:49.780
a more tortured past 'cause they've
had to joke to make up for the

00:38:49.780 --> 00:38:53.080
feelings of sadness or not feeling
like they are seen or understood.

00:38:53.890 --> 00:38:58.990
I, I have a theory that's all this is
that then over time, if your secondary

00:38:58.990 --> 00:39:04.090
emotion of humor is so consistent, then
does it move into your primary emotion

00:39:04.570 --> 00:39:06.520
that then your immediate reaction is.

00:39:07.195 --> 00:39:07.645
A joke.

00:39:08.515 --> 00:39:10.525
Instrumental emotions
are pretty fascinating.

00:39:10.525 --> 00:39:14.035
They're used more strategically and
these are the ones that we might

00:39:14.035 --> 00:39:17.785
not even realize that we're using to
influence somebody or gain control.

00:39:17.785 --> 00:39:21.505
Think of a kid who cries to get
out of a task and you sense that

00:39:21.505 --> 00:39:22.705
it's, it's a little bit fake.

00:39:23.245 --> 00:39:27.625
My grandson, red, who's barely over a
year old, can do little cry eyes, sad

00:39:27.625 --> 00:39:31.825
eyes, and it's adorable, but it's his
way you can already see of wanting to

00:39:31.825 --> 00:39:34.705
get attention or I don't know if it's to
necessarily get out of something or maybe

00:39:34.705 --> 00:39:40.225
to get something or an adult who might
use passive aggressive size or tears, not

00:39:40.225 --> 00:39:42.055
from primary pain, but to shift the mood.

00:39:42.625 --> 00:39:45.865
I am still very fascinated
by interrogation videos.

00:39:45.985 --> 00:39:48.385
A lot of times my social
media feeds show them.

00:39:48.625 --> 00:39:53.935
I watched one not long ago, and it was
a woman in court and she was making the

00:39:53.935 --> 00:39:58.975
faces of someone that was very sad, and
the person that was in charge of this

00:39:59.395 --> 00:40:04.675
YouTube channel pointed out that she would
even grab a tissue, but there's no, no.

00:40:05.050 --> 00:40:06.730
Moisture coming out of her eyes.

00:40:07.180 --> 00:40:11.290
And then when a question would be
asked, it was amazing how quickly she

00:40:11.290 --> 00:40:15.370
could just be right back in the present
moment that these, and I will sound

00:40:15.370 --> 00:40:16.900
judgmental, but I will own this one.

00:40:17.290 --> 00:40:22.930
But it did not appear to be how
a really, truly sad, empathetic,

00:40:23.890 --> 00:40:26.140
weeping person would react.

00:40:26.365 --> 00:40:30.190
But it looked like this person was
using these instrumental emotions

00:40:30.640 --> 00:40:35.560
as a way to try and shift the mood
to, to move it over to about them.

00:40:35.890 --> 00:40:39.460
And to be fair, they're not always
manipulative, but they're often less

00:40:39.460 --> 00:40:43.090
about what's being truly felt and more
about what results someone hopes to get.

00:40:43.660 --> 00:40:48.640
And not long ago, I was overhearing an
adult who needed help with something

00:40:48.970 --> 00:40:51.850
and instead of just saying, Hey, is
there any way that you could help me?

00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.730
They said, oh, I don't
know what I'm gonna do.

00:40:54.790 --> 00:40:57.970
And it, it just didn't even
sound like this person and the.

00:40:58.330 --> 00:41:00.340
People that they were
talking to help them.

00:41:00.430 --> 00:41:02.680
It is fascinating to see
that it was rewarded.

00:41:02.890 --> 00:41:05.500
Let me talk about anger for just a second
before we move on past emotions, because

00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:07.510
I really find anger very fascinating.

00:41:07.990 --> 00:41:11.800
Anger is a big one in relationships,
and anger is one of these that can be

00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:13.660
either a primary or a secondary emotion.

00:41:14.260 --> 00:41:16.930
Primary anger comes from something real.

00:41:17.260 --> 00:41:18.040
Being wronged.

00:41:18.040 --> 00:41:19.535
Being violated, being betrayed.

00:41:19.930 --> 00:41:20.980
A sense of injustice.

00:41:20.980 --> 00:41:24.730
If your partner is unfaithful and
you say, I'm so angry at you, I

00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:26.110
didn't deserve this, that's primary.

00:41:26.290 --> 00:41:27.580
It's vulnerable, it's honest.

00:41:27.580 --> 00:41:28.810
It invites connection.

00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:31.450
Even if it's hard, it says, I'm
hurt and I need you to see that.

00:41:32.350 --> 00:41:33.400
Secondary anger though.

00:41:33.700 --> 00:41:34.810
Is more like armor.

00:41:34.870 --> 00:41:37.090
It's the lashing out in reaction
to something that happened.

00:41:37.270 --> 00:41:41.740
Let's go back to this example of if I
am embarrassed, if I am scared and then

00:41:41.740 --> 00:41:43.450
I get angry, knock it off, you guys.

00:41:43.450 --> 00:41:44.140
It's not funny.

00:41:44.590 --> 00:41:47.020
I'm angry because I am embarrassed.

00:41:47.380 --> 00:41:51.970
It's not about trying to share this pain
or be heard, it's about shielding it.

00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.480
And so then that one doesn't
build bridges between people.

00:41:55.720 --> 00:41:57.400
It's gonna, it's gonna
burn the bridge down.

00:41:57.400 --> 00:41:59.950
It's gonna put more
distance between two people.

00:42:00.640 --> 00:42:04.120
Now, when we confuse the two, I'm
talking again about primary and

00:42:04.120 --> 00:42:07.090
secondary emotions, or when we act
from secondary motion and then we call

00:42:07.090 --> 00:42:10.870
that our truth, it, we can start to
do some damage in our relationships.

00:42:11.110 --> 00:42:15.070
It's so important to learn to
recognize these emotional layers and

00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.440
then being honest about where your
emotions are coming from because

00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:21.400
that will help you show up with more
clarity and less reactivity, and as

00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:26.140
we have identified, when we can be
more authentic, when we can eliminate

00:42:26.200 --> 00:42:29.140
that reactivity, when we can do that.

00:42:29.545 --> 00:42:32.485
Then you can show up with
more genuine curiosity.

00:42:32.575 --> 00:42:37.195
You ask better questions, ones that
are rooted and genuine, wanting to

00:42:37.195 --> 00:42:40.375
know and understand somebody instead
of some emotional defensiveness

00:42:40.375 --> 00:42:43.405
or trying to prove somebody wrong
or defend your own fragile ego.

00:42:44.065 --> 00:42:47.905
So let's talk a little bit about
how you can feel the difference.

00:42:48.025 --> 00:42:51.505
And this is where I go back to
wanting you to trust your gut.

00:42:51.505 --> 00:42:55.375
Now, in the world of emotional
immaturity, I covered a concept that I

00:42:55.375 --> 00:42:59.215
was talking about emotional reasoning,
or if I feel it, it must be true.

00:42:59.905 --> 00:43:04.495
And on that episode, it was part
two of my exploring All Things

00:43:04.495 --> 00:43:07.015
Emotionally Immature podcast series.

00:43:07.675 --> 00:43:12.175
I did make a distinction that
I want you to start from a

00:43:12.175 --> 00:43:13.285
place of trusting your gut.

00:43:13.855 --> 00:43:16.945
The thing that I want people to be
aware of though, is that that is a

00:43:16.945 --> 00:43:21.505
childhood adaptation that for kids,
if you, if I think mom and dad are

00:43:21.505 --> 00:43:22.915
mad at me, then they are mad at me.

00:43:22.915 --> 00:43:26.725
So then when a parent is even being
very kind and gentle and saying things

00:43:26.725 --> 00:43:30.055
the kid doesn't want to hear, the kid
will often say, stop yelling at me.

00:43:30.205 --> 00:43:32.815
And if you are a parent, you've
inevitably gotta the point where

00:43:32.815 --> 00:43:34.105
you're like, I'm not yelling.

00:43:34.345 --> 00:43:36.415
And they're saying, yes you
are, you're, and you're so mad.

00:43:36.445 --> 00:43:38.005
I'm not mad bud, and I'm not yelling.

00:43:38.005 --> 00:43:41.725
And then eventually you are mad and
you say, I'll show you what yelling is.

00:43:41.785 --> 00:43:43.045
So that's the immature version.

00:43:43.675 --> 00:43:46.015
But I do want to start from
a place of, okay, I feel it.

00:43:46.165 --> 00:43:49.885
I want to acknowledge
that something seems off.

00:43:49.885 --> 00:43:53.305
So when somebody says something
and you can, you start from a

00:43:53.305 --> 00:43:55.765
place of, you can tell this just
feels something feels off you.

00:43:55.765 --> 00:43:57.235
You know when there's genuine connection.

00:43:57.655 --> 00:44:01.555
And I think the genuine curiosity
is such as it feels safe.

00:44:02.035 --> 00:44:05.485
Let's say we're starting from a place of
you, you can tell there's a hidden agenda.

00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:08.440
'cause that's not you being paranoid.

00:44:08.740 --> 00:44:11.140
We start from a place of that
is your brain doing its job?

00:44:11.560 --> 00:44:15.400
Because our social brains are wired
with a thing called mirror neurons.

00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:20.200
And while I am not a, a neuroscientist,
I love the concept around mirror neurons.

00:44:20.200 --> 00:44:22.840
I'm acknowledging the fact that
there may be parts of this that I

00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:24.340
don't even know, that I don't know.

00:44:24.790 --> 00:44:27.160
But my understanding is that these
mirror neurons do help us sense

00:44:27.160 --> 00:44:28.600
what other people are feeling.

00:44:28.750 --> 00:44:32.050
It's like we're looking into a mirror
or we're trying to read the room.

00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:36.580
We're trying to pick up on their
energy, their, the subtle nuances that

00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:38.770
are there to protect us initially.

00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:41.860
So when somebody's being performative
or they're being sarcastic or they're

00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:45.790
being defensive, we don't just
hear it because we might definitely

00:44:45.790 --> 00:44:47.290
hear it, but we will feel it.

00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:51.190
We wanna start from that place of, I do
feel it, I want to make space for that.

00:44:51.190 --> 00:44:52.810
I wanna acknowledge that
this something feels off.

00:44:53.410 --> 00:44:57.160
And that's why people do shut
down when they sense that your

00:44:57.160 --> 00:44:59.380
curiosity maybe isn't genuine.

00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:04.330
Now I hope that we're gonna be able to
have the tools to say, Hey, I'm noticing

00:45:04.330 --> 00:45:05.680
that to something feels off here.

00:45:06.040 --> 00:45:10.720
Tell me more about why you're asking that
question, or, help me understand because

00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:14.020
your body is telling you this isn't safe.

00:45:14.050 --> 00:45:17.410
So let's build a pause in here and
let's just put our guard up a little

00:45:17.410 --> 00:45:21.550
bit because I don't want to hand away
buttons that this person can push,

00:45:21.550 --> 00:45:24.610
especially if they're in the world of
emotional immaturity or even all the way

00:45:24.610 --> 00:45:29.170
up to narcissistic traits or tendencies
because handing those buttons over, it

00:45:29.170 --> 00:45:31.990
might feel good in the moment, but then
if you are in relationships where that

00:45:31.990 --> 00:45:36.280
person comes back and then uses those
against you down the road, then it turns

00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:41.350
out that you are this internal radar or
internal GPS of emotions was correct.

00:45:41.620 --> 00:45:42.010
Hey everybody.

00:45:42.010 --> 00:45:45.920
Lemme take a , quick minute to talk to the
guys who are listening to this episode.

00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:49.520
, I want to really hone in on the
guys who are starting to wake

00:45:49.520 --> 00:45:52.773
up to the fact that something in
your life just isn't quite right.

00:45:53.842 --> 00:45:57.112
Have you ever caught yourself thinking
things are gonna get better, things

00:45:57.112 --> 00:46:00.862
will be better when, when the kids grow
up or when you get in better shape,

00:46:00.862 --> 00:46:03.772
or when you get the promotion, or when
you finally have a little more time,

00:46:03.952 --> 00:46:07.792
or after you finish all eight seasons
of this Netflix show that you are

00:46:07.792 --> 00:46:11.302
invested in, that is magical thinking.

00:46:11.902 --> 00:46:12.892
It'll get better later.

00:46:12.982 --> 00:46:16.432
And that's what gets people to this
place where they feel like they're

00:46:16.432 --> 00:46:18.202
not living their very best life.

00:46:18.742 --> 00:46:19.132
So.

00:46:19.582 --> 00:46:20.962
Welcome to, to Later.

00:46:21.202 --> 00:46:21.712
It is now.

00:46:21.712 --> 00:46:23.422
Later it is time to do something about it.

00:46:24.382 --> 00:46:26.542
Yeah, your life maybe isn't playing
out the way that you thought it

00:46:26.542 --> 00:46:27.952
would, and you don't know why.

00:46:27.952 --> 00:46:31.282
Or maybe you think that you do,
but nothing that you try seems to

00:46:31.282 --> 00:46:33.472
work or it actually seems to make
things worse, and now you're stuck

00:46:33.742 --> 00:46:34.822
kicking the can down the road.

00:46:34.822 --> 00:46:38.282
And at this point you have kicked that
can so far down the road that , you

00:46:38.282 --> 00:46:41.342
might qualify for a Guinness World
record and emotional deflection.

00:46:41.612 --> 00:46:42.512
But here is the truth.

00:46:42.542 --> 00:46:45.962
It is time to stop letting your job,
your marriage, your bank account,

00:46:45.962 --> 00:46:49.832
your kids, your fear, your ego dictate
how you show up in your own life.

00:46:50.402 --> 00:46:53.852
I have been fortunate to work
with men from all walks of life.

00:46:53.852 --> 00:46:57.302
Athletes and politicians and doctors
and lawyers, and engineers and salesmen.

00:46:57.602 --> 00:46:58.052
You name it.

00:46:58.112 --> 00:47:02.162
And the truth is, our struggles
are far more alike than you think.

00:47:02.612 --> 00:47:06.802
The key is not getting older or
wealthier or more shredded at the gym.

00:47:06.992 --> 00:47:08.342
, It's admitting that you need help.

00:47:08.672 --> 00:47:11.792
Now, this may sound like a riddle,
but I promise you it's not because I'm

00:47:11.792 --> 00:47:13.442
actually not a very big fan of riddles.

00:47:13.742 --> 00:47:14.372
So hear me out.

00:47:14.642 --> 00:47:15.812
You don't know what you don't know.

00:47:16.157 --> 00:47:19.217
And that's okay, because how could
you know what you don't know?

00:47:19.367 --> 00:47:21.497
And the things that you've learned
in your life up to this point

00:47:21.497 --> 00:47:24.437
were also things that you did
not know until you learn them.

00:47:24.917 --> 00:47:28.397
So it would only make sense that
as you continue on life's path as a

00:47:28.397 --> 00:47:31.397
human, there is a lot more to learn.

00:47:31.481 --> 00:47:34.151
That can be an awesome
thing, but for some reason.

00:47:34.736 --> 00:47:37.726
Men in particular have a tough time
admitting or understanding this, , but

00:47:37.726 --> 00:47:40.606
it is the key to the next phase
of your life, and I can guide you

00:47:40.606 --> 00:47:43.786
down that path because real change
doesn't come from chasing more.

00:47:43.786 --> 00:47:46.546
It comes from learning to look
inward and confronting something

00:47:46.546 --> 00:47:49.636
inside of you that I promise you,
you're probably not even aware of.

00:47:50.386 --> 00:47:53.376
So that is where my, emotional
architect's men's group comes in.

00:47:53.406 --> 00:47:57.156
I promise that I do have the tools
you just have to show up, whether it's

00:47:57.156 --> 00:48:00.756
business, marriage, parenting, intimacy,
health, finances, or friendships.

00:48:00.996 --> 00:48:05.436
The root of most of our struggles as men
in particular, is emotional immaturity.

00:48:05.436 --> 00:48:06.006
And guess what?

00:48:06.366 --> 00:48:08.076
We are all emotionally immature.

00:48:08.256 --> 00:48:10.746
But when you learn what it is, when
you learn what it looks like, how

00:48:10.746 --> 00:48:13.626
it shows up in all the areas of
your life, when you learn how to

00:48:13.626 --> 00:48:16.956
embrace it, instead of running from
it, everything starts to shift.

00:48:17.841 --> 00:48:20.841
So for less than the cost of one therapy
session a month , you will get access.

00:48:21.141 --> 00:48:24.261
To two group calls a month with
like-minded men, guys who are, ready

00:48:24.261 --> 00:48:28.161
to grow with a clear, well-crafted
roadmap that teaches you , the things

00:48:28.161 --> 00:48:31.041
that you didn't even know that you
were missing, as well as you'll

00:48:31.041 --> 00:48:32.901
have one-on-one access to yours.

00:48:32.901 --> 00:48:33.921
Truly, that's me.

00:48:34.101 --> 00:48:36.621
And a place to ask every question
you've ever wanted answered

00:48:36.701 --> 00:48:38.081
you name it, we'll answer it.

00:48:38.681 --> 00:48:41.681
So if you have been waiting for some
sort of a sign, well, this is it.

00:48:42.191 --> 00:48:46.181
So go to tony over bay.com or
email me at contact@tonyoverbay.com

00:48:46.231 --> 00:48:50.671
and ask about the Men's Emotional
Architects group later Is today and

00:48:50.671 --> 00:48:54.451
character transforming life altering
Change is ready and waiting for you.

00:48:54.931 --> 00:48:55.576
Now let's get back to the show.

00:48:55.950 --> 00:48:58.770
Lemme throw a some real life examples
and we'll try to make more sense of this.

00:48:59.370 --> 00:49:00.750
So let's look at a marriage.

00:49:01.455 --> 00:49:05.325
Say, partner number one says, I'm just
kind of feeling overwhelmed lately with

00:49:05.325 --> 00:49:07.095
everything at home and everything at work.

00:49:07.095 --> 00:49:11.775
So if we've got their partner and
who is not being so curious, then

00:49:11.985 --> 00:49:13.305
these words might sound curious.

00:49:13.305 --> 00:49:14.895
Really, what exactly
are you overwhelmed by?

00:49:15.525 --> 00:49:17.775
And then they might even jump in
and say, I mean, I've been trying

00:49:17.775 --> 00:49:18.765
to do more around the house.

00:49:18.765 --> 00:49:19.785
I did the dishes last night.

00:49:20.295 --> 00:49:24.285
So that question can sound like
an an engagement, but really it's

00:49:24.285 --> 00:49:27.525
somewhat of a defensive counter
attack because then it becomes

00:49:27.525 --> 00:49:30.135
about you expressing your emotions.

00:49:30.435 --> 00:49:32.925
That person saying words that
could put a question mark behind

00:49:32.925 --> 00:49:36.495
them, but then it slips into
their validating their own effort.

00:49:36.495 --> 00:49:38.415
They're really not
trying to understand you.

00:49:38.415 --> 00:49:41.835
Now, a more curious version of that
might be the partner saying, oh, you're

00:49:41.835 --> 00:49:43.005
feel, you're feeling overwhelmed.

00:49:43.035 --> 00:49:44.025
Hey, tell me more about that.

00:49:44.025 --> 00:49:45.555
What has that felt like?

00:49:45.555 --> 00:49:47.265
What are you experiencing?

00:49:47.265 --> 00:49:50.295
Or tell me what's the hardest part about
what you've been going through lately?

00:49:51.315 --> 00:49:52.425
That's curiosity.

00:49:53.010 --> 00:49:55.890
And hopefully you can even feel
that that's a little safer.

00:49:55.890 --> 00:49:56.700
It's more open.

00:49:56.700 --> 00:49:59.820
It's coming from a place where the person
asking the questions is more grounded.

00:50:00.630 --> 00:50:04.740
Now let's, let's jump into this world of
parent teen, well, I don't know, showdown.

00:50:05.310 --> 00:50:08.550
So a teenager, and I want to jokingly
say, this is all hypothetical.

00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:10.560
I'm sure no one's ever
experienced this exactly.

00:50:10.950 --> 00:50:11.850
Teenager saying, you know what?

00:50:11.910 --> 00:50:14.340
I just think school is pointless
and I'm never gonna use any of this.

00:50:15.030 --> 00:50:16.740
Parent not being so curious.

00:50:16.770 --> 00:50:17.160
Oh, really?

00:50:17.190 --> 00:50:19.140
So you just think everybody
should just drop out and become

00:50:19.140 --> 00:50:21.000
an influencer or a, a YouTuber.

00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:23.220
So that is sarcasm.

00:50:23.490 --> 00:50:25.050
Disguised is curiosity.

00:50:25.560 --> 00:50:28.230
The more curious version is,
oh man, that sounds hard.

00:50:28.290 --> 00:50:29.610
First of all, tell me how
I can show up for you.

00:50:29.970 --> 00:50:31.650
Is there anything I can do right now?

00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:34.500
I really wanna understand, you
know, what part of school feels

00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:35.490
the most pointless right now?

00:50:36.435 --> 00:50:38.085
Let's move into example three.

00:50:38.295 --> 00:50:42.165
We will say that, uh, you're all gathered
around the dinner table and you're with

00:50:42.165 --> 00:50:45.285
your friends, and somebody just says,
honestly, I don't even think that college

00:50:45.285 --> 00:50:46.635
is worth it for everybody these days.

00:50:46.815 --> 00:50:51.225
Now, if you are being more performative
and not curious, really should people just

00:50:51.225 --> 00:50:52.815
drop out and then just hope for the best?

00:50:52.815 --> 00:50:54.165
I mean, I'm so curious
what you mean by that.

00:50:54.825 --> 00:50:57.285
They've even said the word curious
in there, and again, you could put a

00:50:57.285 --> 00:51:01.005
question mark at the end of that, but that
sounds more like it's being accusatory.

00:51:01.635 --> 00:51:04.425
If you were being genuinely
curious, then that is interesting.

00:51:04.575 --> 00:51:05.505
Take me on your train of thought.

00:51:05.745 --> 00:51:08.325
I'd love to know why you
came up with that conclusion.

00:51:08.325 --> 00:51:11.835
Tell me what your experience is,
the shift in tone and intention and

00:51:11.835 --> 00:51:13.875
emotional safety becomes everything.

00:51:14.775 --> 00:51:19.155
Let's talk about maybe a litmus
test for genuine curiosity.

00:51:19.155 --> 00:51:23.205
So how do you know which kind
of curiosity you are bringing?

00:51:24.135 --> 00:51:24.495
Because.

00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:28.110
We will never exactly know what
the other person is going through.

00:51:28.110 --> 00:51:29.490
So this is about you.

00:51:29.490 --> 00:51:30.510
It is a you thing.

00:51:30.540 --> 00:51:34.980
It's a you thing to, to determine whether
or not the person who is asking you

00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:36.690
questions is being genuinely curious.

00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:39.930
Because that will go a long way with
do you feel safe enough to open up?

00:51:40.080 --> 00:51:43.800
Or even I might open up and I have
to accept the fact that if that

00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:47.070
person wasn't genuinely curious,
then that could come back to bite me.

00:51:48.090 --> 00:51:53.430
But if you are the person that is in a
relationship and you are the one now that

00:51:53.430 --> 00:51:58.260
is listening, I would love to help you
understand, am I trying to understand

00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:00.720
this other person or am I trying to win?

00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:04.860
Am I okay if their answer
challenges what I believe?

00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:07.470
Because it's okay for us
to already have beliefs.

00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:08.850
We're human beings.

00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:14.280
We need to be able to check those beliefs,
step outside of that ego so that I can

00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:18.480
become more genuinely present and curious
because I want to know this person.

00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.410
Would I ask this question
even if I knew that I wouldn't

00:52:22.410 --> 00:52:23.610
get the response that I want?

00:52:24.435 --> 00:52:27.465
'cause if the answer is yes to those,
and then congratulations because you

00:52:27.465 --> 00:52:31.395
are locked into genuine curiosity mode,
that is where you are going to have a

00:52:31.395 --> 00:52:35.025
potential for genuine emotional intimacy
and connection with another human.

00:52:35.775 --> 00:52:39.525
And the good news is you can rewire
this even if your default mode has

00:52:39.525 --> 00:52:41.265
been performative or defensive.

00:52:42.105 --> 00:52:44.955
The fact you're listening
to this is amazing.

00:52:45.135 --> 00:52:47.385
And you can retrain your
brain to show up differently.

00:52:47.985 --> 00:52:49.425
Just like these emotional styles.

00:52:49.425 --> 00:52:51.015
They're not fixed in stone.

00:52:51.435 --> 00:52:53.055
Neither is your questioning style.

00:52:53.625 --> 00:52:57.945
Because every time that you learn how
to pause that you choose to pause,

00:52:57.945 --> 00:53:02.205
regulate your emotions, then ask a
question from a place of openness.

00:53:02.265 --> 00:53:05.265
You're starting to rewire the way
that you connect with other people.

00:53:05.685 --> 00:53:07.785
You're starting to build emotional safety.

00:53:08.145 --> 00:53:11.625
It's going to start to feel more
genuine and authentic, and it will

00:53:11.625 --> 00:53:13.215
come from a place of confidence.

00:53:13.755 --> 00:53:16.665
And then you become somebody
that people feel safe talking to.

00:53:17.745 --> 00:53:23.175
That safety is what allows people
to be more vulnerable and more

00:53:23.235 --> 00:53:27.470
growth-minded, and it just gives you
this opportunity for real connection.

00:53:27.830 --> 00:53:31.665
I. Let's walk through how
emotional immaturity and genuine

00:53:31.665 --> 00:53:33.735
curiosity show up out in the wild.

00:53:34.155 --> 00:53:36.855
I'll give you four real life
narratives and each one is gonna

00:53:36.855 --> 00:53:38.715
start with a knee-jerk reaction.

00:53:38.865 --> 00:53:42.435
And then let's explore how curiosity
would lead to a better path.

00:53:42.495 --> 00:53:45.105
Parenting from explosion to exploration.

00:53:45.105 --> 00:53:47.595
You walk into your teenager's
room and it's a mess.

00:53:47.595 --> 00:53:48.465
It's a disaster.

00:53:48.885 --> 00:53:52.185
Clothes, dishes, how many times
have you said, Hey, can you not

00:53:52.185 --> 00:53:54.345
bring dishes into your room?

00:53:54.645 --> 00:53:56.925
Or there's just empty soda cans?

00:53:57.075 --> 00:54:00.675
You could basically do like an
entire archeological dig and.

00:54:01.375 --> 00:54:04.525
Find things that, that you haven't
seen for years and there might even

00:54:04.525 --> 00:54:07.645
be new species of things that are
growing or happening under their bed.

00:54:08.275 --> 00:54:11.875
So your first reaction might be,
seriously, I have told you so many

00:54:11.875 --> 00:54:14.665
times to clean this up and I just
feel like you don't respect me.

00:54:14.665 --> 00:54:17.515
You don't respect this house
and you take advantage of me.

00:54:17.905 --> 00:54:20.185
That is this, this concept
of emotional reasoning.

00:54:20.215 --> 00:54:21.235
It's black and white thinking.

00:54:21.235 --> 00:54:24.085
You feel disrespected, so you,
you assume it is disrespect.

00:54:24.085 --> 00:54:24.955
This is what they are doing.

00:54:24.955 --> 00:54:25.585
Case closed.

00:54:25.585 --> 00:54:28.195
Now, curiosity would look
like you walk in there.

00:54:28.675 --> 00:54:29.875
Here's my opportunity for growth.

00:54:30.055 --> 00:54:32.485
I pause, I take a breath, it's necessary.

00:54:32.485 --> 00:54:34.405
I gotta slow down my, my heart rate.

00:54:34.405 --> 00:54:37.075
I gotta lower the
cortisol, the adrenaline.

00:54:37.135 --> 00:54:40.225
I have to be able to be grounded
in order to be genuinely curious.

00:54:40.825 --> 00:54:41.725
Hey, how's your day?

00:54:42.205 --> 00:54:43.585
Tell me what's going on here in your room.

00:54:44.245 --> 00:54:48.475
Or if you feel so bold, hey, I'm noticing
your room seems a little bit disheveled.

00:54:48.985 --> 00:54:50.365
Help me understand what's
going on for you today.

00:54:50.485 --> 00:54:52.255
'cause you might learn that
they had a brutal test.

00:54:52.255 --> 00:54:54.205
They might have have had a
fight with a friend or they're

00:54:54.205 --> 00:54:55.315
just feeling overwhelmed.

00:54:55.815 --> 00:54:58.785
Now it doesn't excuse the mess,
but now you're in a conversation

00:54:59.175 --> 00:55:00.165
instead of a power struggle.

00:55:00.225 --> 00:55:00.885
Tell me more.

00:55:00.885 --> 00:55:04.215
Help me understand In that scenario
in particular, parenting becomes

00:55:04.215 --> 00:55:05.685
the long game if we're being honest.

00:55:06.225 --> 00:55:08.745
Now, let's talk about that
in the context of marriage.

00:55:09.075 --> 00:55:14.565
Your partner walks in and they don't
greet you and you react, yes, no.

00:55:14.565 --> 00:55:15.315
Hey, where are we?

00:55:15.315 --> 00:55:16.545
Not even doing eye contact now.

00:55:17.145 --> 00:55:19.395
So your brain probably jumps
in with that observation.

00:55:19.395 --> 00:55:20.715
You make a judgment, they're mad at me.

00:55:21.045 --> 00:55:22.275
And you might even say that out loud.

00:55:22.455 --> 00:55:23.895
Oh, okay, what did I do this time?

00:55:24.345 --> 00:55:26.475
What is going on so much that
you can't even say hi to me?

00:55:27.105 --> 00:55:31.905
It's maybe even, I don't know, slam a
drawer, or you now make it about you and

00:55:31.905 --> 00:55:33.195
huff and puff your way outta the room.

00:55:33.855 --> 00:55:34.575
Passive aggressive.

00:55:35.025 --> 00:55:35.955
That's mind reading.

00:55:35.985 --> 00:55:37.005
That's magical thinking.

00:55:37.005 --> 00:55:37.995
That's emotional immaturity.

00:55:37.995 --> 00:55:39.585
Now, curiosity would look like this.

00:55:40.125 --> 00:55:41.505
Hey, you seem quiet when you came in.

00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:42.540
How was your day?

00:55:42.750 --> 00:55:43.800
Take me on your train of thought.

00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:46.260
One of my favorite phrases is everything.

00:55:46.290 --> 00:55:46.680
Okay?

00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:49.230
Now you may discover that they're
just in their own head about work.

00:55:49.230 --> 00:55:50.370
It's not about you.

00:55:50.730 --> 00:55:53.430
They may not be angry at all about you.

00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:56.280
They could be ruminating or overthinking.

00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:01.320
And the tension then has this potential
to lift almost instantly and you didn't

00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:03.120
have to read their mind or play defense.

00:56:03.720 --> 00:56:07.770
What can be difficult is if you are an
anxiously attached person like myself,

00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:09.240
it can be difficult to not check in.

00:56:09.240 --> 00:56:14.340
If they aren't completely better, in your
opinion, in five or 10 minutes, that's

00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:18.270
when you're gonna want to check yourself
and not continue to say, are you sure?

00:56:18.780 --> 00:56:20.370
'cause you sure seem
like you're still off.

00:56:20.670 --> 00:56:26.460
I have to trust that I provided them
space to, to engage or talk with me.

00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:28.830
And if that is something that they
don't feel safe doing or want to

00:56:28.830 --> 00:56:32.130
do right now, that's okay because
we're playing the long game.

00:56:32.130 --> 00:56:33.030
We're in a relationship here.

00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:35.520
So turn it into the workplace setting.

00:56:35.580 --> 00:56:38.970
So you're in a meeting and a project
that you worked on gets brought up,

00:56:39.450 --> 00:56:41.160
but only your coworker gets credit.

00:56:41.790 --> 00:56:43.440
So then you, you stew all day.

00:56:44.070 --> 00:56:45.570
That guy's trying to make me look bad.

00:56:45.810 --> 00:56:49.380
I can't believe that no one noticed
that I did anything about that.

00:56:49.380 --> 00:56:50.580
Or how could he take all that credit?

00:56:51.060 --> 00:56:52.560
That's emotional fusion.

00:56:53.070 --> 00:56:57.090
I'm wanting these people to recognize
my efforts and I don't want them to

00:56:57.090 --> 00:56:59.970
think this, or I don't want say it
because I don't want them to think

00:56:59.970 --> 00:57:01.830
that I'm being an egomaniac or, so.

00:57:01.830 --> 00:57:03.330
I'm managing people's emotions.

00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.540
I am wanting somebody to, to read my mind.

00:57:07.080 --> 00:57:08.550
Now, what would curiosity look like?

00:57:09.120 --> 00:57:11.190
Hey, I noticed the project
came up in the meeting and I

00:57:11.190 --> 00:57:12.150
didn't hear my name mentioned.

00:57:12.150 --> 00:57:14.130
Can we talk about how we're
presenting things moving forward?

00:57:14.640 --> 00:57:17.130
You're not accusing, you're
clarifying, you're not demanding.

00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.760
You're trying to have a dialogue that does
not guarantee that the other person is

00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.320
going to say, oh my gosh, you're so right.

00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:27.180
But at some point you are beginning
to be more curious and learn to be

00:57:27.180 --> 00:57:30.570
grounded in these interactions because
that's the person that you want to be.

00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:32.940
Suck about an interaction with a neighbor.

00:57:33.090 --> 00:57:34.830
You wave at your
neighbor, don't wave back.

00:57:35.100 --> 00:57:39.150
Maybe that's been a pattern over time, you
begin to think, man, what's their problem?

00:57:39.450 --> 00:57:40.650
So then you avoid, and I'll show them.

00:57:40.740 --> 00:57:42.510
I'm not gonna wave at
them for a while either.

00:57:42.570 --> 00:57:47.730
And then they will see something,
curiosity might even be going over and

00:57:47.730 --> 00:57:53.100
approaching them and, uh, hey, I, I
waved and said hi and I didn't see, it.

00:57:53.100 --> 00:57:55.890
Seemed like you looked at me
and didn't wave back and, which

00:57:55.890 --> 00:57:57.240
is fine, but I'm so curious.

00:57:57.240 --> 00:57:57.840
How are you doing?

00:57:57.990 --> 00:57:58.950
Is everything okay?

00:57:58.950 --> 00:57:59.940
Or what's going on in your life?

00:58:00.720 --> 00:58:02.400
This is based on a real story.

00:58:02.730 --> 00:58:04.830
And in that scenario, the guy
didn't have his glasses on,

00:58:04.830 --> 00:58:05.970
honestly, he was a little bit older.

00:58:05.970 --> 00:58:07.200
He also didn't have his hearing aids in.

00:58:07.470 --> 00:58:11.010
And so that helped my client make a
lot more sense of what was happening.

00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:13.830
But I've had situations as well
where somebody was grieving a loss

00:58:13.830 --> 00:58:15.360
or they honestly didn't see you.

00:58:16.050 --> 00:58:19.680
But either way, you were able to not
only just clear the air so that you

00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:24.630
didn't sit there and make up stories and
ruminate, but you also were able to have

00:58:24.630 --> 00:58:26.070
a genuine connection with another human.

00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:30.660
Curiosity is a muscle and
you have to practice it.

00:58:31.140 --> 00:58:32.550
Curiosity isn't passive.

00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:34.470
It's not pretending
that everything's fine.

00:58:34.710 --> 00:58:36.300
It's not avoiding conflict.

00:58:36.720 --> 00:58:40.560
Curiosity is, it's a maturity skill
and it takes regulation, it takes

00:58:40.650 --> 00:58:44.760
reflection, and it takes a lot of reps.
It's saying, I may not know the full

00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:49.440
story, but I care enough about myself
and this other person to find out.

00:58:49.860 --> 00:58:53.490
And like any skill, it's gonna be pretty
wobbly at first, and it might be wobbly

00:58:53.490 --> 00:58:55.950
for quite some time because you'll
still fall into these old patterns.

00:58:55.950 --> 00:58:58.950
You'll overcorrect, you'll catch
yourself sometimes mid reaction

00:58:59.040 --> 00:59:00.090
and wish you could rewind.

00:59:00.240 --> 00:59:04.140
And while you can't literally pull
a Superman and go around the globe

00:59:04.140 --> 00:59:08.220
backwards a few times and rewind
time, you can ask for a do-over.

00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:08.940
That's okay.

00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:12.750
It's growth because over time, the
fact that you're aware of this, the

00:59:12.750 --> 00:59:15.690
fact that you're trying to be more
genuinely curious and you're getting

00:59:15.690 --> 00:59:19.470
these reps in, then you'll start to
notice when the story in your head

00:59:19.500 --> 00:59:21.000
isn't really matching the moment.

00:59:21.495 --> 00:59:25.515
You'll be able to catch these assumptions
before they even escape your mouth.

00:59:26.055 --> 00:59:30.495
Staying grounded is such a key component
of being more genuinely curious.

00:59:30.495 --> 00:59:34.485
If you can stay grounded long
enough to learn to respond instead

00:59:34.485 --> 00:59:38.775
of react, and that's where you
begin to lead with curiosity and

00:59:38.775 --> 00:59:39.915
what it feels like to be you.

00:59:40.275 --> 00:59:40.815
Is I am.

00:59:40.875 --> 00:59:41.925
I am genuinely curious.

00:59:41.925 --> 00:59:43.905
I have my thoughts, I have my
opinions, but I really want to

00:59:43.905 --> 00:59:47.445
know, I really wanna understand what
this other person's experience is.

00:59:47.895 --> 00:59:50.895
And before we wrap this up, I do
wanna throw a couple of acceptance

00:59:50.895 --> 00:59:53.265
and commitment therapy tools in
here that I think are important.

00:59:54.045 --> 00:59:56.595
Your brain's job is narrating.

00:59:56.595 --> 00:59:58.845
It's to narrate, it's to
judge, it's to predict.

00:59:58.935 --> 01:00:01.035
That's not a flaw, it's just wiring it.

01:00:01.095 --> 01:00:02.235
It's just the way it is.

01:00:02.835 --> 01:00:06.855
But the challenge is if you believe
every thought that you have is true, now

01:00:06.855 --> 01:00:10.125
you're at the mercy of that script and
your brain is just gonna think a whole

01:00:10.125 --> 01:00:11.445
lot of words, a whole lot of thoughts.

01:00:12.075 --> 01:00:14.415
Uh, instead of things like,
man, I'm just so awkward.

01:00:14.415 --> 01:00:15.645
Everybody thinks I'm annoying.

01:00:16.215 --> 01:00:19.065
It is very powerful just to put
a little bit of space there.

01:00:19.545 --> 01:00:20.145
Oh, check that out.

01:00:20.145 --> 01:00:22.365
I'm noticing I'm having the
thought that I'm awkward, and

01:00:22.365 --> 01:00:24.705
the story my brain is telling me
is that people find me annoying.

01:00:25.335 --> 01:00:27.135
It creates space, it slows the spiral.

01:00:27.135 --> 01:00:29.235
It gives you a chance to step
back and say, is that helpful?

01:00:29.685 --> 01:00:34.215
Is that a productive thought or is it
just the familiar And in act, there's

01:00:34.215 --> 01:00:36.135
a concept called self as context.

01:00:36.525 --> 01:00:39.045
One of the best ways to think
about this is you're the sky.

01:00:39.345 --> 01:00:41.925
You are, you're not the weather,
you are not your anxiety.

01:00:42.045 --> 01:00:44.595
You are not your worst day,
you're not your best performance.

01:00:44.595 --> 01:00:46.245
You're not even the role that
you're playing right now.

01:00:46.245 --> 01:00:49.215
A parent or partner, the me as
a therapist, podcaster friend,

01:00:49.845 --> 01:00:50.595
you're the one observing it.

01:00:50.595 --> 01:00:52.695
All your thoughts and
feelings, they are the weather.

01:00:52.695 --> 01:00:54.825
They roll in, they roll out you.

01:00:55.245 --> 01:00:57.855
You are the big, beautiful sky.

01:00:58.605 --> 01:01:01.035
And when you remember that, curiosity
comes a lot easier because you're

01:01:01.035 --> 01:01:02.355
no longer defending the storm.

01:01:02.355 --> 01:01:05.805
You're watching it, you're learning from
it, and choosing how to respond to it.

01:01:06.645 --> 01:01:10.905
And that way you can attach more meaning
to the parts of the weather that you

01:01:10.905 --> 01:01:15.645
really appreciate and you can tolerate
the parts that you don't because.

01:01:16.290 --> 01:01:18.990
Another key concept in acceptance
and commitment therapy is this

01:01:19.740 --> 01:01:21.120
term psychological flexibility.

01:01:21.150 --> 01:01:25.380
It is about growing in real time
because I cannot stress enough.

01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:27.030
Every single moment is new.

01:01:27.240 --> 01:01:30.210
Every conversation that you're
having is the first time you're

01:01:30.210 --> 01:01:31.200
ever having that conversation.

01:01:31.230 --> 01:01:34.560
Even if the words sound familiar
and the person is the same,

01:01:35.190 --> 01:01:36.720
it is unchartered territory.

01:01:36.750 --> 01:01:39.780
You've never been this version
of you in this very moment

01:01:39.810 --> 01:01:42.090
with this person right now.

01:01:42.095 --> 01:01:46.410
Before I. Because when you maybe were
talking to this person in the past,

01:01:46.410 --> 01:01:51.150
it was in the past, so of course you
don't need to have all the answers,

01:01:51.180 --> 01:01:55.410
but your brain is this predictive
engine and it is seeking certainty.

01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.170
And so it is going to
start to make prediction.

01:01:58.170 --> 01:02:01.590
Psychological flexibility says, I'm
gonna stay with what's here right now.

01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:06.090
I'm gonna accept what I feel and I will
make this choice, this choice point,

01:02:06.150 --> 01:02:09.960
and choose my next move based on who
I wanna be, not what I want to avoid.

01:02:10.560 --> 01:02:13.470
And that's where the work
becomes the good work.

01:02:13.470 --> 01:02:14.970
That's where the emotional maturity lives.

01:02:15.735 --> 01:02:19.305
I've got my four pillars of a connected
conversation, and one thing that I don't

01:02:19.305 --> 01:02:22.005
talk enough about is when I'm working
with individuals, I will call it the

01:02:22.005 --> 01:02:23.535
one person four pillared conversation.

01:02:23.865 --> 01:02:26.745
So even if the other person that
you're interacting with isn't equipped

01:02:26.745 --> 01:02:29.775
with these tools, you can be, you can
still show up with the four pillars.

01:02:29.805 --> 01:02:32.565
You can provide somebody the benefit
of the doubt or that there's a reason

01:02:32.565 --> 01:02:34.635
why they are showing up this way,
or they're saying that things that

01:02:34.635 --> 01:02:37.785
they're saying, which allows you
to then accept their perspective,

01:02:37.785 --> 01:02:39.045
their view makes sense to them.

01:02:39.255 --> 01:02:42.045
My pillar two, you cannot tell
somebody else that that is ridiculous,

01:02:42.165 --> 01:02:43.335
wrong, or I don't believe them.

01:02:43.935 --> 01:02:46.995
Even if I think what they're saying
is ridiculous, it, I do believe

01:02:46.995 --> 01:02:51.105
it's wrong and I don't believe them
because that is their perspective.

01:02:51.105 --> 01:02:53.805
That is their view, which then
leads to pillar three, which

01:02:53.805 --> 01:02:55.635
is questions before comments.

01:02:56.085 --> 01:02:57.405
Now's your time to seek to understand.

01:02:57.405 --> 01:02:59.205
Here's where the genuine curiosity comes.

01:03:00.015 --> 01:03:01.365
It's asking more.

01:03:01.905 --> 01:03:03.225
It's trying to understand.

01:03:03.255 --> 01:03:04.455
It's putting my ego aside.

01:03:04.455 --> 01:03:05.715
It's reacting less.

01:03:05.715 --> 01:03:06.885
It's responding more.

01:03:07.365 --> 01:03:09.975
And then fourth pillar, not
going into any kind of victim

01:03:09.975 --> 01:03:11.295
mindset or victim mentality.

01:03:12.075 --> 01:03:13.785
I'm going to embrace the conversation.

01:03:13.875 --> 01:03:14.595
I'm gonna stay in it.

01:03:14.655 --> 01:03:15.915
I'm not gonna tap out.

01:03:16.065 --> 01:03:20.145
So if I go to someone and I say,
Hey, tell me about your day.

01:03:20.295 --> 01:03:22.065
Help me understand what's
been going on for you.

01:03:22.155 --> 01:03:25.755
And they say, I've really been
in my head, and I just, it seems

01:03:25.755 --> 01:03:26.805
like nobody's there for me.

01:03:27.195 --> 01:03:30.495
And that is hard for you because you're
literally right here for them right now.

01:03:31.215 --> 01:03:33.045
I'm assuming good intentions.

01:03:33.045 --> 01:03:34.365
I'm giving them that benefit of the doubt.

01:03:34.515 --> 01:03:38.235
I'm accepting that their view of what
is going on right now is their view.

01:03:38.625 --> 01:03:40.725
So I am not gonna tell 'em they're wrong.

01:03:40.845 --> 01:03:42.585
And then I'm gonna go
into that third pillar.

01:03:42.585 --> 01:03:44.175
I am going to say, tell me more.

01:03:44.175 --> 01:03:44.895
Help me understand.

01:03:44.895 --> 01:03:45.975
What's that feel like for you?

01:03:46.035 --> 01:03:48.975
And as they express themselves,
now I'm understanding more about

01:03:48.975 --> 01:03:50.505
them and I'm gonna stay present.

01:03:50.865 --> 01:03:51.495
Pillar four.

01:03:51.555 --> 01:03:55.395
Now at that point, when they
feel heard, then I can say.

01:03:55.815 --> 01:03:58.755
I appreciate you sharing that,
that helps me understand you.

01:03:59.295 --> 01:04:01.965
I think one of the traps we into is
they're saying, I know exactly how you

01:04:01.965 --> 01:04:05.835
feel, which nobody truly knows exactly
how we feel, but I'm a, I'm grateful

01:04:05.835 --> 01:04:08.595
that you've shared that with me, and that
helps me understand your experience more.

01:04:08.595 --> 01:04:12.375
Now, first of all, that does sound
difficult and how can I show up for you?

01:04:12.405 --> 01:04:15.915
Because sometimes when you put it that
way, somebody can say things like, I,

01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:19.815
I guess I just really need to be heard,
or, I really do want your opinion on

01:04:19.815 --> 01:04:24.735
what you, if they say, think I should
do, then that's, well, I can give you my

01:04:24.735 --> 01:04:29.565
opinion on what I assuming that I would
do if I were you in that situation, but I

01:04:29.595 --> 01:04:30.795
don't know what it feels like to be you.

01:04:31.365 --> 01:04:33.525
But all of that comes from a
place of leading with curiosity.

01:04:33.585 --> 01:04:35.325
You are holding onto yourself.

01:04:35.325 --> 01:04:38.385
You stay differentiated, and even
if the other person doesn't meet you

01:04:38.385 --> 01:04:43.275
there, you'll walk away knowing that you
showed up the best way that you could

01:04:43.425 --> 01:04:45.675
more emotionally mature, kind, clear.

01:04:46.515 --> 01:04:47.265
So wrap this thing up.

01:04:47.505 --> 01:04:50.565
True vulnerability means, it
does mean owning what you assume.

01:04:50.565 --> 01:04:53.175
Sometimes the most vulnerable
thing that you can say is.

01:04:53.655 --> 01:04:55.515
Hey, I think I made an assumption here.

01:04:55.575 --> 01:04:59.235
I assumed that you meant this
or I thought I understood, but

01:04:59.235 --> 01:05:00.285
I might have missed something.

01:05:00.405 --> 01:05:01.425
I would love to hear you.

01:05:01.425 --> 01:05:05.235
I would love for you to be able to
clarify, or I was so sure I was right,

01:05:05.385 --> 01:05:07.635
but I am so open to hearing more.

01:05:08.175 --> 01:05:10.065
'cause that kind of
vulnerability builds trust.

01:05:10.065 --> 01:05:13.545
It doesn't weaken your authority, it
earns your respect because curiosity

01:05:13.545 --> 01:05:14.895
does not mean giving up your voice.

01:05:15.225 --> 01:05:18.045
It means making room for someone
else's, and that's where emotional

01:05:18.045 --> 01:05:19.245
connection starts to begin.

01:05:20.115 --> 01:05:23.355
Lemme give you just a couple of
takeaways that you can leave today

01:05:23.355 --> 01:05:25.845
and start to do, catch your reaction.

01:05:26.055 --> 01:05:28.665
And if you can name the thought,
start paying attention to your initial

01:05:28.665 --> 01:05:30.135
reaction in these moments of tension.

01:05:30.165 --> 01:05:32.445
The next time that you feel
defensive or dismissed or rejected.

01:05:33.240 --> 01:05:36.300
Pause and ask yourself, what is this
story my brain's telling me right now?

01:05:36.630 --> 01:05:41.400
And try to use the language like I'm
noticing that I'm having a thought that

01:05:41.490 --> 01:05:45.330
they don't respect me, instead of they
don't respect me, or, oh, check that out.

01:05:45.390 --> 01:05:49.320
I'm noticing that I'm starting to
feel anger instead of I'm angry.

01:05:49.950 --> 01:05:51.180
That simple shift.

01:05:51.195 --> 01:05:54.615
It helps you step back from the thought,
and it does start to open doors to

01:05:54.615 --> 01:05:56.265
curiosity instead of reactivity.

01:05:56.655 --> 01:05:58.935
And I would highly recommend
that you practice this one

01:05:58.935 --> 01:06:00.375
person four pillar conversation.

01:06:00.375 --> 01:06:03.435
Choose an interaction this week, maybe
with a partner or a child, a coworker,

01:06:04.065 --> 01:06:05.115
or even the neighbor who didn't wave.

01:06:05.235 --> 01:06:06.915
And then intentionally walk
through the four pillars.

01:06:06.915 --> 01:06:09.555
Give that person the benefit of the
doubt, or there's a reason why they're

01:06:09.555 --> 01:06:12.105
doing what they're doing except their
perspective, because it's valid to them.

01:06:12.765 --> 01:06:16.275
And if you are telling them, that isn't
what I said, or I don't, that isn't

01:06:16.275 --> 01:06:19.785
what I remember, then I've just told
them what their experience is wrong.

01:06:20.295 --> 01:06:23.175
Now I can still hold on to what
my experience was, but first I

01:06:23.175 --> 01:06:26.685
want to seek to understand them
with with an open-ended question.

01:06:27.315 --> 01:06:29.745
And I'm gonna embrace the
conversation instead of shutting

01:06:29.745 --> 01:06:31.125
down, instead of trying to avoid it.

01:06:31.215 --> 01:06:33.135
And then even if the other
person doesn't reciprocate.

01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:37.080
Notice how different you feel when
you lead with emotional maturity

01:06:37.110 --> 01:06:38.460
and you lead with curiosity.

01:06:38.520 --> 01:06:42.960
And maybe the most difficult thing,
but it could be the most powerful,

01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:45.780
is say the vulnerable thing at
least once or twice this week.

01:06:45.780 --> 01:06:48.690
Practice real humility by saying one
thing that reflects emotional ownership.

01:06:48.900 --> 01:06:51.900
And that might sound like, I
think I made an assumption,

01:06:52.110 --> 01:06:54.270
or, Hey, that's on me, my bad.

01:06:54.630 --> 01:06:56.730
Or I might not have been seeing
this 'cause it's clearly,

01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:57.810
can you help me understand?

01:06:57.810 --> 01:07:00.630
I really wanna know you or, that's on me.

01:07:00.630 --> 01:07:04.890
I thought I was being clear, but I am
sure that I'm, that I something that I

01:07:04.890 --> 01:07:07.380
said might have been taken the wrong way.

01:07:08.250 --> 01:07:12.630
Saying something that shows openness
and a willingness to be wrong builds

01:07:12.630 --> 01:07:17.985
trust, and it reinforces the identity of
somebody who values growth over their ego.

01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:19.320
Okay.

01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:20.700
Hey, thank you for sticking with me.

01:07:20.700 --> 01:07:21.840
That's all I have for you today.

01:07:21.840 --> 01:07:23.700
If you ever caught yourself asking
a question with a little bit of

01:07:23.700 --> 01:07:26.130
an edge or hope any other person
gives you the right answer so that

01:07:26.130 --> 01:07:28.080
you feel better, just remember you.

01:07:28.170 --> 01:07:28.950
You are not alone.

01:07:29.190 --> 01:07:30.600
That's part of being a human being.

01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:33.390
But you can start to shift it,
and that shift starts with being

01:07:33.390 --> 01:07:34.950
curious, genuinely curious.

01:07:35.370 --> 01:07:39.450
I would be grateful if you subscribe
and leave reviews and share this

01:07:39.450 --> 01:07:42.210
with somebody who you think might
benefit from maybe softening their

01:07:42.210 --> 01:07:45.510
questions into true, genuine curiosity.

01:07:46.080 --> 01:07:49.140
Until next time, I encourage you
all, keep showing up with presence.

01:07:49.170 --> 01:07:53.820
Be present, not, not necessarily feeling
like you have to protect that ego.

01:07:54.270 --> 01:07:56.940
Be curious, and I will see you
next time on the virtual couch.