Hey everybody.
Welcome to another episode of Virtual Couch Presents.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit
coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and, , host of.
Several podcasts about mental health relationships, emotional maturity,
navigating faith, crisis, you name it, all those wonderful things.
But today we're gonna dive into a topic that I, I will guarantee, I'm
not a big all or nothing guy, but I believe everyone has experienced
this, whether you realize it or not.
So here's a quick question to start us off.
Have you ever been in a conversation where somebody asked you a
question that the words were words that sounded like a question?
And if you were writing this out, there would be a question mark at the end.
Technically, it sounded like they were being curious,
but something just felt off.
Like maybe your partner said, so you really thought that outfit was a good
choice for dinner with my parents?
Or your boss asks, I'm very curious about why you would actually approach
a client presentation like that and assume that they would like
it, that they would appreciate it, or that you would get that deal.
Or maybe it was something subtle like a friend saying, I. So that's your opinion.
That is fascinating.
That is interesting.
Really.
So that's honestly how you feel.
Or one of my personal favorites.
This one is guaranteed to not land well.
So you already cleaned up this, so is this like what you call clean?
So that, that kind of thing.
I. That's what I wanna talk about today, the difference between genuine
curiosity and then performative, or even defensive questioning because
I see this so often in my work as a couple's therapist and just as a human
being, and I think that understanding and being genuinely curious can be a
very big game changer in a relationship.
Let me start with a story that I think taught me a lot about curiosity
and more about what it wasn't.
It was many, many years ago, I was at one of my daughter's high school track
meets, and at that point in my life, I, I won't say embarrassingly, so, but
I would say definitely, so my identity was pretty wrapped up in being a runner.
Not just the casual one.
Now I realize what was I running from?
But this is when I had run over a hundred marathons and ultra marathons
and done 24 hour fundraising events on the high school track to bring
in money for the local schools.
And I had competed in the famed Super Bowl of a hundred milers, the
Western states, 100 miler, which was kind of in my backyard at the
time, around Auburn, California.
Not once, not twice, but three times.
And running wasn't just something that I did, it was really a part of who I was.
Whenever I would interact with others, we would pretty much talk about
running, and I would even sometimes feign frustration of, oh my gosh, is
that all that they want to talk about?
But let me keep talking about it.
But here I am, I'm standing on the infield of a track and I'm
watching the events unfold.
And a guy that I kind of knew one of those.
That in small towns you feel like, you think, okay, I've seen this guy around.
I know who he is, but we've never really talked.
We just give each other the head nod and he comes up to me and
our kids were both running, and I thought, okay, this is cool.
Here's a chance to connect.
Now, while my identity was firmly planted in being a runner, I was also
well into now my career as a therapist, which I truly believe saved my life.
I can honestly say I believe that I was genuinely becoming more curious about
people's experience, and I think that was part of this cognitive dissonance of my
identity as a runner, but somewhat feeling annoyed that that was all we were gonna
talk about, but probably pretty insecure that I really wasn't exactly sure what
else to talk about other than running.
So I start by asking him about his son.
How long has his son been running?
What does he really enjoy?
What kind of events he enjoys doing because his kid was a pretty good athlete.
And then casually, I asked if this guy was a runner too, and he
seemed a little bit more bulky, looked like more of a weightlifter.
And so honestly I didn't really know.
And then he lit up and he told me, oh, I'm, I am a runner.
And I did a lot of sprints in high school.
I could have ran in college.
I love that one, but I don't know, something, something got in the way.
And he had done a couple of 10 Ks, a half marathon and he had tried one
full marathon but had gotten injured.
Wasn't his fault.
Somebody had probably advised him incorrectly of training.
I was genuinely curious about a story, and now I will be honest.
At that point, there was probably a small part of me that then hoped he
would ask me about my running because it, that was a big part of my identity
and he did acknowledge it because I know that he had been at my 24 hour
fundraising events a time or two, and I think he had even ran around the track.
People would come do that with their kids at odd hours of the night,
and most of them would usually stop by say hi, or I would run with him
for a little bit, but he didn't.
I remember he would stay on the opposite end of the track,
but he did acknowledge that.
He said, Hey, I know you're a runner, and, and I thought, okay, here we go.
This would be nice.
And then he starts to gimme a lot of running advice, specifically things
that he had noticed when I was doing my 24 hour events, when I had been
running for 18 hours or so, 20 hours.
And these were specific tips on fueling and then pacing.
And then he started suggesting some things that I could probably do
different in the longer ultra marathons.
I thought to myself, so based on what, this is gonna sound egotistical
for a moment, bear with me.
But based on watching me from the other side of the track, or maybe
from the bleachers at those school fundraising runs, I don't really
remember exactly what his advice was because I think I was so, I don't wanna
say blown away sounds so, so dramatic.
I think I was just so fascinated that that just didn't really make much sense
to me, that my brain kind of glitched.
I think he named some sort of food that he thought might help me
around hour 20 of a 24 hour run.
And I remember nodding and smiling and thought, okay, that would probably be
one of the worst foods that I could eat.
I don't remember what it was.
I don't remember if it was, let's say that it was a curry or something like that.
Spicy curry, when in reality you're wanting bland bananas and then gels.
And as he walked away, he said, this has been really nice.
I've always wanted to pick your brain about running.
And I remember thinking.
I don't think my brain was picked.
I don't think that is what curiosity actually is.
I wonder, that feels more like an insecurity dressed up in
a curiosity costume, or maybe that's some emotional immaturity
or that's a need for validation.
And let me go on this tangent for a minute.
Let's talk about insecurity perhaps, and I know I'm making assumptions.
He may have been feeling a little unsure about his own running identity and
offering advice may have been his way of trying to level the playing field.
So instead of asking about my experience, he presented himself as somebody who
probably had something to teach me.
Now, if we're talking about emotional immaturity, one of my favorite things
these days, we, rather than being comfortable with his position as a
learner, if he was truly interested in ultra marathons or someone who
had his own experiences as a half marathoner or just basically as
somebody who ha, who hasn't run ultras.
Instead, he needed to show up with something to contribute, even if it meant
assuming an expert role in a space that he wasn't trained in, which without knowing.
I knew immediately based off the things he was saying, that he honestly didn't
know what he was talking about, which did not build trust or connection or
emotional intimacy between he and I.
If we look at this like from a validation seeking standpoint, he might have been
hoping that I would go, oh my gosh, I have not thought of spicy Indian curry
at mile 80 when my stomach is already being really, really wild or odd.
That sounds amazing.
You've got great insights or some way to make him feel affirmed or maybe make him
feel like he is an impressive individual.
Here's the key though.
None of those are genuinely curious.
Genuine curiosity asks to understand, not to be seen as smart or helpful.
It's more rooted in openness, not in the outcome.
And here's one of the big takeaways that we'll explore today.
We're gonna talk about emotions and all kinds of things.
People feel that difference.
There's a huge difference between asking somebody a question to understand
and asking a question, to defend yourself, to prove a point, to win
an argument, or to tee yourself up so that then you can tell your stories.
So lemme go back to that.
People feel the difference.
I. They may not be able to put it into words, but their
nervous system knows what's up.
Because we are wired for connection, we're also wired to detect threats.
And so even a question can feel like a threat if it's loaded with
judgment or wrapped up in sarcasm.
So back to this guy at the track meet, what he wasn't doing
was being genuinely curious.
He was asking questions.
Again, they would have question marks after them, but it felt like more
of just a setup to make a point.
He was more of a, Hey, let me show you what I know than, Hey, tell me what it's
like to do what you've done now as a therapist, especially when it works with
couples, I'm even more aware of this dynamic and lately I've been noticing
what I'm almost looking at, like a big old confirmation bias cocktail when
it comes to how rarely we practice genuine curiosity in our relationships.
We're just not that great at wondering about each other anymore.
We're really good at talking, talking at someone, telling them what I think
that they are feeling or thinking great at advising, great at correcting,
but pausing, being genuinely curious, asking from a place of truly.
Admitting that I don't know or that I don't understand, that seems to be really
difficult because real curiosity I think requires a few things, requires humility.
It means admitting that we don't have the answer, that we have not
necessarily walked in another person's shoes, which makes sense because
they're the only version of them.
You're the only version of you.
We have to admit that their experience might be completely unfamiliar, and I
think if we're being honest, that can feel really uncomfortable, especially
if we are tying our self-worth or if our self-worth is tangled up in being right
or being helpful or needing to contribute.
Here's the secret though, real connection, I believe, starts
when you can get rid of certainty.
Real connection starts when certainty ends.
So let's go a little deeper.
Why is it so hard to be genuinely curious?
Let's take a look at how that shows up in our relationships, and then what
it looks like to lead from humility.
And we're gonna even talk about different types of humility instead of from our ego.
My friend Preston used to say, our ego is this, this adorable security guard that
sits on the porch and just protects you.
But sometimes it's a little overprotective or it's barking at somebody that
is not really a threat, because I think if we're talking about ultra
marathons or emotional gridlock in our marriage, one thing is true.
You cannot guide someone through terrain that you've never crossed yourself.
So then why is it so hard to simply be curious, genuinely curious about
somebody else's life, that they are the ones living before jumping in
with advice or opinions or directions.
Story time.
I was in a couple session, it was just a few days ago, and we were
talking through some dynamics.
As the couple started figuring out a few things, the husband said something
that honestly I really appreciated.
He said that he wanted to be called out on his emotional immaturity
and that that sounds great.
It's huge step, but then the very next line out of his mouth was,
yeah, and you can call me out.
I really wanna know what I'm not getting again, sounds, sounds wonderful.
But then it got really interesting after that, I told the couple that I
really admire when somebody in session has the courage to say those things.
Like, Hey, old man, slow down, or, I lost you there.
Or, that's a lot of jargon, or, I honestly don't know what that means.
You seem pretty excited about it, Mr.
Therapist, but what am I missing?
What does that mean to you?
Because here's what that means to me, because part of that therapeutic
process, hopefully if you've got a good therapist, it's not about them just
waxing on therapeutic and you are there to just sit at their feet and learn.
It's an interactive process.
So yes, I have a certain set of skills, I think as Liam Neeson says, but I want
to understand what you are understanding or what you're not understanding.
And I know that that can take time as well.
That's vulnerable.
That is very real.
But then the husband added, he said, yeah, because sometimes, and he said,
no offense, which I love because that means something that he's about to say.
He's worried it will be offensive.
And then the husband adds.
Yeah, because sometimes I don't think you realize that you're
not really making a lot of sense.
And I thought, okay, that is a fair point, but let's break it down.
'cause what I just heard was sometimes when you are talking that I, your client,
I actually have a better understanding of what you are trying to say than you do.
And therefore I reserve the right to tell you when you are
not explaining yourself well.
And again, on the surface, if you take out my passive aggressive
tone, that sounds reasonable.
But what it feels like is okay, I now have to work even harder to make sense
to you on your terms of something that you may not really understand.
It's almost like he gets to sit back and his arms are folded
and he's saying, no, try again.
I am gonna actually stay defensive until you put together the exact
right combination of words, the facial expressions and tone that feel good to me.
And honestly, trust me, I've done that dance plenty of times when
it was more about, oh my gosh, I don't want them to think I'm a bad
therapist, or I really want validation.
I want them to tell me.
The way you explain things is amazing, but genuine curiosity, it
requires active participation, not as some sort of passive resistance.
You know, it sounds more like, Hey, help me understand.
Not necessarily, I don't understand.
'cause that comes with maybe a side order of, so keep trying or it looks
like, okay, what am I not getting?
Instead of me putting out this energy, if I'm the client here,
I need you to keep trying.
I need you to keep guessing, almost like a game of charades.
Until then, I can finally get it until you make sense to me.
Because underneath that you need to make it make sense.
Energy.
That's often where the emotional immaturity lives because that's
the need to be made to feel better.
That's the hidden win-win for the more emotionally immature.
If I finally say something that clicks for you, then you get to say, well done.
You may now comfortably exist in my presence and we may
continue, but if I don't.
If it doesn't land, and that could even be a variety of things.
Let's say that you are, are bored, you are hungry, you are lonely, you are angry,
you are tired, you are anxious, you're scrolling through your own emotional
filters of life, then that could very well be an impossible task for me.
Are you genuinely trying to understand me?
Especially in the case of, let's say you're going to go visit your Dr. Ele, or
maybe it's the attorney, the dentist, the therapist, the auto mechanic, that someone
that that is what you are going there for.
There's a somewhat of an assumption that, okay, they most likely do know
at least some of what they're talking about or possibly more than me, the
person coming to them for their services.
So now if I'm sitting back saying, I ultimately need to be made to
understand and then I am not trying at all to try and understand, then
maybe you can see where all these other factors can come into play.
So it could be an impossible task.
And then here's the kicker.
Now, if I, let's say as a therapist, if I get frustrated trying to
explain myself, now I even look more like the unstable one.
Or let's say that you're in a marriage with an emotionally immature
partner and they are the ones that are saying, I still don't get it.
Keep dancing, keep going, try again.
Then eventually I may get frustrated because you're not
actively trying to understand.
You actually get to stay calm, uh, even concerned.
And it eventually shifts into, geez, I was just trying to understand you.
Sorry for caring, nevermind.
And now you, the person in that position of trying to explain to the
person who is not genuinely curious.
Now you start to feel like the crazy one.
And now the person that is not actively participating or actively
being genuinely curious, now you get to look like the victim.
So what does the person that is trying to explain in a way that you will
understand, what will they eventually do?
Then they will apologize.
Okay.
No, you're right.
I'm sorry.
I, I'm just losing my Cool.
Without really understanding that it's.
I'm continually trying to explain something to you that I don't view
you as trying to genuinely understand.
So this is a bit of a fool's errand, but then that person,
typically I would then apologize.
You would forgive me, and you stay in that one-up position.
And then before we even try to have another hopefully real intimate
conversation, you may have already planted the landmine of, Hey, uh, can
you just promise me you won't freak out this time like you did last time when all
I was trying to do was understand you.
And then that just sends the other person walking into the conversation
with just a big old backpack full of, of anticipatory rejection.
And that cycle will continue.
So back to this couple.
So I brought a little more than gentle awareness to the fact that
it's actually more of his job, or, and, and it would mean more to him.
It would resonate more to him if he can be the one that can ask for clarification.
I. Now if I sense that either of them in this couple setting detaches shuts down,
looks confused 'cause I am reading body language, then absolutely I'll check in.
I might ask, Hey, I noticed a a little sudden shift in energy, or it
appears that you shut down right now.
Tell me what you're hearing or help me understand what does that mean
to you now that's part of my job.
Here's where the real growth happens though.
It takes courage to be vulnerable for that person in that chair that
is interacting with a therapist.
Or if you're the person and you are talking with someone and you
really don't understand, to be able to say, I don't know, especially
when you think you should know.
And again, nobody likes to be should on, especially shoulding on themselves.
Which, speaking of running, I don't know why this just came to mind.
Well, actually, because I'm talking about shoulding on oneself, I. An unfortunate
trail pooping incident somewhere around mile 90 of this aforementioned, famed
Western states, 100 mile endurance run.
I believe it was the second year that I ever ran.
I came upon a runner who was, he was squatting right next to the trail,
but he was yelling, look, look.
And I thought, okay, honestly, I'd rather not because I, it appears
that he's doing his business and not even that successfully right now.
But man, I hear you brother.
We're in this together 90 miles.
There's a number on those quads.
Am I right?
But it turns out he was actually screaming, don't look to which I thought,
well then honestly, don't drop your compression shorts a half an inch off of
a six inch mile rudded single track trail.
But I digress.
Anyway, back to the point, are you actually trying to understand, maybe
you're even trying to understand why did I just tell that story or.
You might even be trying to make someone else rearrange their words until
you feel good about what they said.
I would just love to challenge you to be more aware of the difference.
That is where the growth begins, because let's talk about real curiosity.
Real curiosity requires self-regulation.
Let's start here because without this piece of self-regulation, curiosity
doesn't even stand a chance because real curiosity, it requires you to
be able to calm your own anxiety.
Soothe yourself.
If you can't manage that inner urge to just react, defend iup,
correct or educate the other person, then curiosity is hijacked.
It gets swallowed up by reactivity.
I'm a big fan of David Shana's work of his four points of balance, of
differentiation, and his second point of balance is really important,
and it comes into play here.
Quiet mind and calm heart.
If you're not familiar with S'S model of differentiation of self, it is all
about being able to hold onto your autonomy, your own sense of self in
close emotional connection with others, especially when there's tension because
it is much easier, but you're losing your sense of self when you just acquiesce.
You give in, you fold into what the other person wants you to
do to make them feel better.
Differentiation is that ability to stay you without needing the
other person to become a mirror or a validator of your self-worth.
And let me take one step back.
The first point of balance that of Shen's, four points of balance of
being differentiated is having a solid but flexible sense of self.
You know who you are, what you value, what you stand for, and you're
not rigid or reactive about it.
You move away from this need for others to tell you you're okay.
That concept of external validation, the second point of balance, quiet mind and
calm heart is what allows you to stay in connection with others, even when you
start to become emotionally activated.
'cause you can calm your own nervous system without needing
the other person to do it for you.
I don't need them to tell me it's okay.
'cause I, I can tell myself it's okay.
I can ground myself.
I can come into the present moment.
I can build in that pause because that paves the way for arch's.
Third point of balance of differentiation, which is a grounded response.
That's where you can stay emotionally present.
You can show up honestly, and you can respond instead of react.
You don't have to go too big.
But also you don't have to play small.
You can respond.
You can come from this place where you are.
Okay.
So you know, it is okay for you to stay in this conversation.
So then if we're talking again about genuine curiosity.
This is sort of the engine self-regulation creates this pause, and in that pause,
that's where you can notice, you can say, okay, I'm feeling defensive, but
I wonder what they're really trying to say versus what I am thinking.
I am hearing the assumptions I'm making.
Or that pause is where you can say, I'm noticing this feels like an attack, but
maybe they're hurting and or maybe it is.
Honestly, I am just misunderstanding what might be happening here underneath.
It's not necessarily about the literal words, but more about just
this energy or this feeling that I have that's not being passive, that
is an internal type of strength.
So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I, I loved them both.
You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me and suddenly I am floating through life
with soft serve ice cream in one hand and absolutely no idea what day it is.
, In the other, I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but
regardless, it is a perfect reset.
And I also.
Absolutely love what I do as a therapist.
So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about
things like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional
immaturity, or A DHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation.
So if you were to see me on one of these cruises and you have a
question, you are absolutely not bugging me and true I'm diagnosing
you, but it's in the most lovable way.
Now that is why I am truly excited to be the special guest on the ICU Living
Cruise, a five night Western Caribbean cruise, January 24th through the 29th.
2026, with my good friend and Cruise Mastermind headliner.
And I guess we could technically say maybe cruise director Julie de Jesus.
And this is.
Honestly the best of all worlds because you're gonna be able to get away from the
day-to-day grind, connect with people who care about personal growth, uh, mental
health, all the things that really matter.
Plus again, you've got ice cream, lava cake.
So whether you're working on your mental health or your relationship or looking to
just boost your resilience, or you just need an excuse to finally take a vacation,
this cruise is exactly what you need.
, And parents, good news, kids set sail on this one for free, so you don't
even have to hunt down a babysitter.
So go to julie de jesus.com/cruise, or you can look in the show notes of this
podcast episode or in my link tree or anywhere to get all of the details.
You can lock in your early bird special.
You can reserve your spot for some exclusive dining and
conversation with Julie and me.
You can bring your spouse, bring a partner, your friends, any of your
favorite overthinkers, or just bring yourself, we would love to have you there.
Let's go with a couple of examples.
Let's start in a marriage.
If your partner says, you never listen to me.
If your initial reaction is, are you kidding me?
I always listen.
I matter of fact, you're the one that doesn't listen.
I think you're just being overly sensitive.
It's pretty obvious.
That's reactive.
That's trying to protect yourself rather than understand them.
That is coming from a place of being offended.
But if you've built your, this self-regulation muscle, that's
where you get to take a a breath ground yourself, pause, and then,
okay, can you help me understand what you're feeling unheard about?
Now, you've shifted from defensiveness to curiosity, and that opens a door
for connection, for more communication.
Or think of this in the terms of parenting.
If your teenager says, you know what?
Nobody in this family even cares about me.
You guys all stink.
Then you might wanna say, really, none of us care for you.
Please, we do everything for you.
Who pays for your car insurance?
Who pays for your phone?
That's just ridiculous.
That is not going to build connection.
That is not gonna provide emotional consistency, emotional safety,
secure attachment for your kid to learn how to grow and thrive.
But with self-regulation in place, and you build that pause in,
you do feel this rising anxiety.
I'm noticing that, that I am starting to get a little frustrated.
But then you don't let that hijack or steer the conversation.
You might then be able to find yourself saying something like, Hey, that, and that
sounds like a pretty heavy thing to feel.
Help me understand.
Take me on your train of thought.
What's happening that's made you feel that way?
Like none of us really understand or support you.
You have then created a moment of safety.
Now, does it guarantee that the teenager will melt and some really cool music plays
in the background, and then you have a connection and you eventually hug it out?
Not necessarily, but you are starting to provide consistency.
You've created a moment of safety.
You've made space for a deeper conversation.
That's the gift of this self-regulation, paired with genuine curiosity.
Plus, you're modeling that for your kid as well.
Curiosity requires humility.
This is a pretty important piece.
Now, let's define humility, because I'm so curious what that means to you, because
humility in my opinion, is not weakness.
It's not.
Being passive.
It's not about being walked on or being a pushover, and it's
definitely not the, we'll call it the victim energy version of humility.
That sounds like, oh, I guess I'm just an idiot.
I guess I'm just stupid.
I know I shouldn't be thinking that I never get anything right,
or, Hey, I'm so sorry again.
I know I'm probably wrong.
That's not humility.
I really believe that's more like a shield.
It's a disarming tactic, and it's often used by the more emotionally mature people
to avoid accountability or to elicit some sort of reassurance or validation.
It may sound humble.
It might even feel somewhat humble, but it actually places the burden back
on the other person to now comfort and validate or tiptoe real humility.
The kind that comes from differentiation, the kind that leads to genuine
curiosity looks like someone who says, Hey, I didn't know that.
Thank you for explaining.
I really appreciate that.
Or, Hey, you're right.
That's my misunderstanding.
That's my bad.
Or.
I can really see how that landed a lot differently than I had intended.
And I, I am so sorry that that came out the way that it did.
But thank you for bringing that to my attention.
That version of humility is more from a place of strength and confidence.
It builds trust.
'cause when you can admit that you are a human being, imperfect, growing,
learning, the other person starts to feel safer to be those things too.
And in relationships, that really starts to become a turning point.
Humility says, my ego doesn't need to win this round.
I would rather understand you.
And this is, we're in this relationship for the long haul, and I'm secure
enough, or I'm working on it.
To not know something and not believe that you are now going to
run away screaming and leave me.
That's a doorway to connection, a doorway to intimacy and curiosity.
Curiosity lives on the other side of that door.
Curiosity also requires a secure sense of self, that first point of balance.
David Arch's.
Four points of balance of differentiation, because the truth is you will hear things
like, oh, I thought everybody knew that.
T, which there's gonna be a defensive answer to that.
No, no, we don't.
All I'm sure there are things that you don't know as well, and when
one is truly secure in themselves, their response may sound something
like, oh no, I didn't know that.
Period.
Guilt and shame.
I am often impressed more by the people who tell me that they actually don't
know the difference, because that's okay.
Guilt, I have done something wrong or bad shame I am bad.
Even though to me personally, they're so significantly different that.
It truly is something that I, I truly wish that everyone knew and
understood because I don't believe that shame is productive at all.
I haven't worked with anyone where shame has been the true driver of change.
Even though we continually shame ourselves or come from a place of shame because
we think that that must be what will help, if shame was healing well, then
we would all be healed because we're really good at beating ourselves up.
Genuine curiosity requires a willingness to not be the expert.
I often refer back to this article that I've shared from Eleanor Greenberg from
Psychology today.com titled The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
And what I think is fascinating is she talked about something that
probably sounds pretty crazy right now, and that is when there was a view
or a concept of healthy narcissism.
So I like co-opting her definition of normal healthy narcissism.
And I'm gonna insert instead of the word narcissism, ego, and then we'll
talk about the opposite of that.
And I think you can see where one is gonna lead to genuine curiosity and the
other not so much normal healthy ego.
This is a realistic sense of positive self regard.
That's based on the person's actual accomplishments.
It's relatively stable because the person has assimilated into their
self-image, their successes that came as a result of their actual hard
work to overcome real life obstacles.
And because it's based on real achievements, normal, healthy ego,
it's relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we
all experience as we go through life.
Normal healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are
in our real self-interest, and it's associated with genuine self-respect.
One can think of it as something that is inside of us.
Why I think that is significant is that when you can start to operate from this
place of, I know what I know because I have really worked hard to know it.
Then that also comes with, so there are obviously things I don't know.
I don't know them because I don't know them, and it's okay
to not know everything, and that can lead to me being curious.
What it also leads to over time is while I say, Hey, this is something I, I know
I am also leaving the door open to.
I learned about this thing that I know from a time when I didn't know it.
So I'm reserving the right to continue to learn and know more, but I'm gonna,
but I'm gonna stand in this healthy ego of the things I know, and I'm gonna
acknowledge the things I don't know.
The opposite of Healthy ego from this truth about Narcissistic
Personality Disorder article is pathological defensive narcissism.
This is a defense against feelings of inferiority.
The person dawns a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince
the world that he or she is special.
But inside the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.
And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.
One small pin prick is gonna deflate it, and this makes the person hypersensitive
to minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice.
So instead, somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded.
They frequently take any form of disagreement as a serious criticism,
and they are likely to lash out and devalue anybody who they
think is disagreeing with them.
They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status.
Pathological narcissism can be thought of as a protective armor
that is on the outside of us.
The significance is the opposite of healthy ego.
This pathological defensive narcissism is from a deep well of insecurity.
If I think that I am supposed to know something about everything, or you
will think less of me, or you will abandon me, or you will lead me, I.
Then I'm gonna make things up and hope that it goes over well.
But over time, it does not build connection.
It does not build genuine intimacy between humans when they
try to communicate or connect.
And healthy ego comes from a place of competence of security.
And I think this ties into this concept of curiosity, because when someone, they
lack curiosity, it's typically coming from this place of insecurity because they
are afraid to ask questions because they may have to admit that they don't know
something, or that this other person might have a knowledge or a trait or some talent
that is different than the person asking.
And when we dip into the world of true emotional immaturity, even
getting into the world of narcissistic traits, tendencies, and personality
disorder, the problem here is that when someone has an opinion that
is different than yours, then.
From this immature place, they think that they are right and I am wrong, as if
there is only one opinion that can be had.
So now they must defend their opinion and break down mine.
So back to curiosity.
Hopefully you're starting to pick up on this vibe that it's
not just a nice trait to have.
It's not just something to think about.
Every once in a while.
It, it's not something that, Hey, we value this in small kids.
They're just so darn curious before the life's knock, the wind outta their sails.
It's actually a milestone of, of emotional maturity.
When we are stuck in this place of emotional immaturity, when we're
operating from these younger, frozen parts of ourselves, then
curiosity feels scary or dangerous.
It feels like saying, if I say, I don't know, that could open the door
to judgment, rejection, feeling small.
So instead, I'm gonna pretend to know, and I'm gonna fill the space.
I'm gonna emotionally filibuster.
I'm gonna explain, I'm gonna advise, I'm gonna narrate, and I'm
gonna try to control the moment often without even realizing it.
The truth is real curiosity comes from a place of security.
If you are interacting with someone and they are being genuinely curious,
that is somebody that is pretty secure.
You cannot be genuinely curious and then desperate to protect
your ego at the same time.
Now, let's talk emotion.
It's important to recognize emotion is not the opposite of reason.
Emotion actually provides us the information that then reason can use.
Let's get a little nerdy.
Modern neuroscience shows that emotions are processed in the brain even before
the thoughts are they fire faster.
Before we even have a chance to rationalize something, we've already
felt it and often we've reacted to it.
I love the example of walking down a road and seeing something outta the
corner of my eye that is just a, a length, a long object and we react.
A visceral reaction of, well, oh my gosh, is that a snake?
And nope, that's a stick.
That is miraculous that I was already reacting before I even
had an idea of what that was.
So here comes the psychology Nerd alert and a now pretty famous 2008 study
neuroscientist John Dillon Haynes and his team at the Max Plank Institute
used functional MRI technology, FMRI, brain scans to explore the
timing of human decision making.
So the big question they had was, when do we actually make a decision?
Is it in the moment that we think that we've decided or does the brain decide?
Before we're even aware, participants in this study were asked to
press a button with their left or right hand, whichever one.
They felt the urge and the researchers with these brain scan devices
connected, watched what was happening in their brains in real time.
And this is just so Wild.
Haynes team found that the brain showed patterns that were predicting the person's
choice up to seven seconds before they consciously reported making the decision.
Just kinda let that one sink in a little bit.
Your brain is already leaning one way.
It's already preparing to act before you're consciously
aware that you've decided.
So in other words, the body, your nervous system, your emotional center, knew first.
So when we say that emotions are faster than thoughts, we're
not just talking metaphorically.
Your brain is already processing, reacting, queuing up, shaping
behavior before your thinking.
Brain may even catch up, and that's why curiosity.
And slowing things down is so powerful.
It's so necessary because most of the time we're reacting before
we're even aware that we've reacted.
So being aware of that and learning to build in that pause, to notice that
I'm starting to react, and then taking that time, building that space in to
then even be curious with myself first.
Ooh, check that out.
I was about to say this thing, but now I'm gonna put that aside.
Step outside of my ego, and now ask questions.
Now let's talk about some emotions, because emotions are not all the same.
They do show up in layers, primary, secondary, and one that I haven't
really talked about, instrumental.
So primary emotions.
Those are these gut, real time, raw responses to life.
They are often about survival or expressing something that's very important
that's been impacted, like sadness from loss or fear from threat are even
anger when a boundary's been crossed.
Secondary emotions come from then how we interpret those primary
feelings, how we react to 'em.
Often they're layered on top, like shame, on top of sadness or anger on top of fear.
The example I love on this one is when my kids would scare me when they were
little, if they jumped out and scared me, and I was like, geez, guys, come on.
And I expressed anger that's actually more of a secondary emotion to
embarrassment, that these tiny little human beings just made me lose my mind
and potentially drop or spill something.
But these secondary emotions, they're the emotions that we learn
or we absorb based on how safe we feel expressing what's underneath.
I cannot stop the jokes on in my inner monologue, and I know that humor
is typically a secondary emotion.
That's why so many comedians have a little bit of a, maybe a, a darker,
a more tortured past 'cause they've had to joke to make up for the
feelings of sadness or not feeling like they are seen or understood.
I, I have a theory that's all this is that then over time, if your secondary
emotion of humor is so consistent, then does it move into your primary emotion
that then your immediate reaction is.
A joke.
Instrumental emotions are pretty fascinating.
They're used more strategically and these are the ones that we might
not even realize that we're using to influence somebody or gain control.
Think of a kid who cries to get out of a task and you sense that
it's, it's a little bit fake.
My grandson, red, who's barely over a year old, can do little cry eyes, sad
eyes, and it's adorable, but it's his way you can already see of wanting to
get attention or I don't know if it's to necessarily get out of something or maybe
to get something or an adult who might use passive aggressive size or tears, not
from primary pain, but to shift the mood.
I am still very fascinated by interrogation videos.
A lot of times my social media feeds show them.
I watched one not long ago, and it was a woman in court and she was making the
faces of someone that was very sad, and the person that was in charge of this
YouTube channel pointed out that she would even grab a tissue, but there's no, no.
Moisture coming out of her eyes.
And then when a question would be asked, it was amazing how quickly she
could just be right back in the present moment that these, and I will sound
judgmental, but I will own this one.
But it did not appear to be how a really, truly sad, empathetic,
weeping person would react.
But it looked like this person was using these instrumental emotions
as a way to try and shift the mood to, to move it over to about them.
And to be fair, they're not always manipulative, but they're often less
about what's being truly felt and more about what results someone hopes to get.
And not long ago, I was overhearing an adult who needed help with something
and instead of just saying, Hey, is there any way that you could help me?
They said, oh, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
And it, it just didn't even sound like this person and the.
People that they were talking to help them.
It is fascinating to see that it was rewarded.
Let me talk about anger for just a second before we move on past emotions, because
I really find anger very fascinating.
Anger is a big one in relationships, and anger is one of these that can be
either a primary or a secondary emotion.
Primary anger comes from something real.
Being wronged.
Being violated, being betrayed.
A sense of injustice.
If your partner is unfaithful and you say, I'm so angry at you, I
didn't deserve this, that's primary.
It's vulnerable, it's honest.
It invites connection.
Even if it's hard, it says, I'm hurt and I need you to see that.
Secondary anger though.
Is more like armor.
It's the lashing out in reaction to something that happened.
Let's go back to this example of if I am embarrassed, if I am scared and then
I get angry, knock it off, you guys.
It's not funny.
I'm angry because I am embarrassed.
It's not about trying to share this pain or be heard, it's about shielding it.
And so then that one doesn't build bridges between people.
It's gonna, it's gonna burn the bridge down.
It's gonna put more distance between two people.
Now, when we confuse the two, I'm talking again about primary and
secondary emotions, or when we act from secondary motion and then we call
that our truth, it, we can start to do some damage in our relationships.
It's so important to learn to recognize these emotional layers and
then being honest about where your emotions are coming from because
that will help you show up with more clarity and less reactivity, and as
we have identified, when we can be more authentic, when we can eliminate
that reactivity, when we can do that.
Then you can show up with more genuine curiosity.
You ask better questions, ones that are rooted and genuine, wanting to
know and understand somebody instead of some emotional defensiveness
or trying to prove somebody wrong or defend your own fragile ego.
So let's talk a little bit about how you can feel the difference.
And this is where I go back to wanting you to trust your gut.
Now, in the world of emotional immaturity, I covered a concept that I
was talking about emotional reasoning, or if I feel it, it must be true.
And on that episode, it was part two of my exploring All Things
Emotionally Immature podcast series.
I did make a distinction that I want you to start from a
place of trusting your gut.
The thing that I want people to be aware of though, is that that is a
childhood adaptation that for kids, if you, if I think mom and dad are
mad at me, then they are mad at me.
So then when a parent is even being very kind and gentle and saying things
the kid doesn't want to hear, the kid will often say, stop yelling at me.
And if you are a parent, you've inevitably gotta the point where
you're like, I'm not yelling.
And they're saying, yes you are, you're, and you're so mad.
I'm not mad bud, and I'm not yelling.
And then eventually you are mad and you say, I'll show you what yelling is.
So that's the immature version.
But I do want to start from a place of, okay, I feel it.
I want to acknowledge that something seems off.
So when somebody says something and you can, you start from a
place of, you can tell this just feels something feels off you.
You know when there's genuine connection.
And I think the genuine curiosity is such as it feels safe.
Let's say we're starting from a place of you, you can tell there's a hidden agenda.
'cause that's not you being paranoid.
We start from a place of that is your brain doing its job?
Because our social brains are wired with a thing called mirror neurons.
And while I am not a, a neuroscientist, I love the concept around mirror neurons.
I'm acknowledging the fact that there may be parts of this that I
don't even know, that I don't know.
But my understanding is that these mirror neurons do help us sense
what other people are feeling.
It's like we're looking into a mirror or we're trying to read the room.
We're trying to pick up on their energy, their, the subtle nuances that
are there to protect us initially.
So when somebody's being performative or they're being sarcastic or they're
being defensive, we don't just hear it because we might definitely
hear it, but we will feel it.
We wanna start from that place of, I do feel it, I want to make space for that.
I wanna acknowledge that this something feels off.
And that's why people do shut down when they sense that your
curiosity maybe isn't genuine.
Now I hope that we're gonna be able to have the tools to say, Hey, I'm noticing
that to something feels off here.
Tell me more about why you're asking that question, or, help me understand because
your body is telling you this isn't safe.
So let's build a pause in here and let's just put our guard up a little
bit because I don't want to hand away buttons that this person can push,
especially if they're in the world of emotional immaturity or even all the way
up to narcissistic traits or tendencies because handing those buttons over, it
might feel good in the moment, but then if you are in relationships where that
person comes back and then uses those against you down the road, then it turns
out that you are this internal radar or internal GPS of emotions was correct.
Hey everybody.
Lemme take a , quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode.
, I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake
up to the fact that something in your life just isn't quite right.
Have you ever caught yourself thinking things are gonna get better, things
will be better when, when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape,
or when you get the promotion, or when you finally have a little more time,
or after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are
invested in, that is magical thinking.
It'll get better later.
And that's what gets people to this place where they feel like they're
not living their very best life.
So.
Welcome to, to Later.
It is now.
Later it is time to do something about it.
Yeah, your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it
would, and you don't know why.
Or maybe you think that you do, but nothing that you try seems to
work or it actually seems to make things worse, and now you're stuck
kicking the can down the road.
And at this point you have kicked that can so far down the road that , you
might qualify for a Guinness World record and emotional deflection.
But here is the truth.
It is time to stop letting your job, your marriage, your bank account,
your kids, your fear, your ego dictate how you show up in your own life.
I have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life.
Athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers, and engineers and salesmen.
You name it.
And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think.
The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym.
, It's admitting that you need help.
Now, this may sound like a riddle, but I promise you it's not because I'm
actually not a very big fan of riddles.
So hear me out.
You don't know what you don't know.
And that's okay, because how could you know what you don't know?
And the things that you've learned in your life up to this point
were also things that you did not know until you learn them.
So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a
human, there is a lot more to learn.
That can be an awesome thing, but for some reason.
Men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding this, , but
it is the key to the next phase of your life, and I can guide you
down that path because real change doesn't come from chasing more.
It comes from learning to look inward and confronting something
inside of you that I promise you, you're probably not even aware of.
So that is where my, emotional architect's men's group comes in.
I promise that I do have the tools you just have to show up, whether it's
business, marriage, parenting, intimacy, health, finances, or friendships.
The root of most of our struggles as men in particular, is emotional immaturity.
And guess what?
We are all emotionally immature.
But when you learn what it is, when you learn what it looks like, how
it shows up in all the areas of your life, when you learn how to
embrace it, instead of running from it, everything starts to shift.
So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month , you will get access.
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So go to tony over bay.com or email me at contact@tonyoverbay.com
and ask about the Men's Emotional Architects group later Is today and
character transforming life altering Change is ready and waiting for you.
Now let's get back to the show.
Lemme throw a some real life examples and we'll try to make more sense of this.
So let's look at a marriage.
Say, partner number one says, I'm just kind of feeling overwhelmed lately with
everything at home and everything at work.
So if we've got their partner and who is not being so curious, then
these words might sound curious.
Really, what exactly are you overwhelmed by?
And then they might even jump in and say, I mean, I've been trying
to do more around the house.
I did the dishes last night.
So that question can sound like an an engagement, but really it's
somewhat of a defensive counter attack because then it becomes
about you expressing your emotions.
That person saying words that could put a question mark behind
them, but then it slips into their validating their own effort.
They're really not trying to understand you.
Now, a more curious version of that might be the partner saying, oh, you're
feel, you're feeling overwhelmed.
Hey, tell me more about that.
What has that felt like?
What are you experiencing?
Or tell me what's the hardest part about what you've been going through lately?
That's curiosity.
And hopefully you can even feel that that's a little safer.
It's more open.
It's coming from a place where the person asking the questions is more grounded.
Now let's, let's jump into this world of parent teen, well, I don't know, showdown.
So a teenager, and I want to jokingly say, this is all hypothetical.
I'm sure no one's ever experienced this exactly.
Teenager saying, you know what?
I just think school is pointless and I'm never gonna use any of this.
Parent not being so curious.
Oh, really?
So you just think everybody should just drop out and become
an influencer or a, a YouTuber.
So that is sarcasm.
Disguised is curiosity.
The more curious version is, oh man, that sounds hard.
First of all, tell me how I can show up for you.
Is there anything I can do right now?
I really wanna understand, you know, what part of school feels
the most pointless right now?
Let's move into example three.
We will say that, uh, you're all gathered around the dinner table and you're with
your friends, and somebody just says, honestly, I don't even think that college
is worth it for everybody these days.
Now, if you are being more performative and not curious, really should people just
drop out and then just hope for the best?
I mean, I'm so curious what you mean by that.
They've even said the word curious in there, and again, you could put a
question mark at the end of that, but that sounds more like it's being accusatory.
If you were being genuinely curious, then that is interesting.
Take me on your train of thought.
I'd love to know why you came up with that conclusion.
Tell me what your experience is, the shift in tone and intention and
emotional safety becomes everything.
Let's talk about maybe a litmus test for genuine curiosity.
So how do you know which kind of curiosity you are bringing?
Because.
We will never exactly know what the other person is going through.
So this is about you.
It is a you thing.
It's a you thing to, to determine whether or not the person who is asking you
questions is being genuinely curious.
Because that will go a long way with do you feel safe enough to open up?
Or even I might open up and I have to accept the fact that if that
person wasn't genuinely curious, then that could come back to bite me.
But if you are the person that is in a relationship and you are the one now that
is listening, I would love to help you understand, am I trying to understand
this other person or am I trying to win?
Am I okay if their answer challenges what I believe?
Because it's okay for us to already have beliefs.
We're human beings.
We need to be able to check those beliefs, step outside of that ego so that I can
become more genuinely present and curious because I want to know this person.
Would I ask this question even if I knew that I wouldn't
get the response that I want?
'cause if the answer is yes to those, and then congratulations because you
are locked into genuine curiosity mode, that is where you are going to have a
potential for genuine emotional intimacy and connection with another human.
And the good news is you can rewire this even if your default mode has
been performative or defensive.
The fact you're listening to this is amazing.
And you can retrain your brain to show up differently.
Just like these emotional styles.
They're not fixed in stone.
Neither is your questioning style.
Because every time that you learn how to pause that you choose to pause,
regulate your emotions, then ask a question from a place of openness.
You're starting to rewire the way that you connect with other people.
You're starting to build emotional safety.
It's going to start to feel more genuine and authentic, and it will
come from a place of confidence.
And then you become somebody that people feel safe talking to.
That safety is what allows people to be more vulnerable and more
growth-minded, and it just gives you this opportunity for real connection.
I. Let's walk through how emotional immaturity and genuine
curiosity show up out in the wild.
I'll give you four real life narratives and each one is gonna
start with a knee-jerk reaction.
And then let's explore how curiosity would lead to a better path.
Parenting from explosion to exploration.
You walk into your teenager's room and it's a mess.
It's a disaster.
Clothes, dishes, how many times have you said, Hey, can you not
bring dishes into your room?
Or there's just empty soda cans?
You could basically do like an entire archeological dig and.
Find things that, that you haven't seen for years and there might even
be new species of things that are growing or happening under their bed.
So your first reaction might be, seriously, I have told you so many
times to clean this up and I just feel like you don't respect me.
You don't respect this house and you take advantage of me.
That is this, this concept of emotional reasoning.
It's black and white thinking.
You feel disrespected, so you, you assume it is disrespect.
This is what they are doing.
Case closed.
Now, curiosity would look like you walk in there.
Here's my opportunity for growth.
I pause, I take a breath, it's necessary.
I gotta slow down my, my heart rate.
I gotta lower the cortisol, the adrenaline.
I have to be able to be grounded in order to be genuinely curious.
Hey, how's your day?
Tell me what's going on here in your room.
Or if you feel so bold, hey, I'm noticing your room seems a little bit disheveled.
Help me understand what's going on for you today.
'cause you might learn that they had a brutal test.
They might have have had a fight with a friend or they're
just feeling overwhelmed.
Now it doesn't excuse the mess, but now you're in a conversation
instead of a power struggle.
Tell me more.
Help me understand In that scenario in particular, parenting becomes
the long game if we're being honest.
Now, let's talk about that in the context of marriage.
Your partner walks in and they don't greet you and you react, yes, no.
Hey, where are we?
Not even doing eye contact now.
So your brain probably jumps in with that observation.
You make a judgment, they're mad at me.
And you might even say that out loud.
Oh, okay, what did I do this time?
What is going on so much that you can't even say hi to me?
It's maybe even, I don't know, slam a drawer, or you now make it about you and
huff and puff your way outta the room.
Passive aggressive.
That's mind reading.
That's magical thinking.
That's emotional immaturity.
Now, curiosity would look like this.
Hey, you seem quiet when you came in.
How was your day?
Take me on your train of thought.
One of my favorite phrases is everything.
Okay?
Now you may discover that they're just in their own head about work.
It's not about you.
They may not be angry at all about you.
They could be ruminating or overthinking.
And the tension then has this potential to lift almost instantly and you didn't
have to read their mind or play defense.
What can be difficult is if you are an anxiously attached person like myself,
it can be difficult to not check in.
If they aren't completely better, in your opinion, in five or 10 minutes, that's
when you're gonna want to check yourself and not continue to say, are you sure?
'cause you sure seem like you're still off.
I have to trust that I provided them space to, to engage or talk with me.
And if that is something that they don't feel safe doing or want to
do right now, that's okay because we're playing the long game.
We're in a relationship here.
So turn it into the workplace setting.
So you're in a meeting and a project that you worked on gets brought up,
but only your coworker gets credit.
So then you, you stew all day.
That guy's trying to make me look bad.
I can't believe that no one noticed that I did anything about that.
Or how could he take all that credit?
That's emotional fusion.
I'm wanting these people to recognize my efforts and I don't want them to
think this, or I don't want say it because I don't want them to think
that I'm being an egomaniac or, so.
I'm managing people's emotions.
I am wanting somebody to, to read my mind.
Now, what would curiosity look like?
Hey, I noticed the project came up in the meeting and I
didn't hear my name mentioned.
Can we talk about how we're presenting things moving forward?
You're not accusing, you're clarifying, you're not demanding.
You're trying to have a dialogue that does not guarantee that the other person is
going to say, oh my gosh, you're so right.
But at some point you are beginning to be more curious and learn to be
grounded in these interactions because that's the person that you want to be.
Suck about an interaction with a neighbor.
You wave at your neighbor, don't wave back.
Maybe that's been a pattern over time, you begin to think, man, what's their problem?
So then you avoid, and I'll show them.
I'm not gonna wave at them for a while either.
And then they will see something, curiosity might even be going over and
approaching them and, uh, hey, I, I waved and said hi and I didn't see, it.
Seemed like you looked at me and didn't wave back and, which
is fine, but I'm so curious.
How are you doing?
Is everything okay?
Or what's going on in your life?
This is based on a real story.
And in that scenario, the guy didn't have his glasses on,
honestly, he was a little bit older.
He also didn't have his hearing aids in.
And so that helped my client make a lot more sense of what was happening.
But I've had situations as well where somebody was grieving a loss
or they honestly didn't see you.
But either way, you were able to not only just clear the air so that you
didn't sit there and make up stories and ruminate, but you also were able to have
a genuine connection with another human.
Curiosity is a muscle and you have to practice it.
Curiosity isn't passive.
It's not pretending that everything's fine.
It's not avoiding conflict.
Curiosity is, it's a maturity skill and it takes regulation, it takes
reflection, and it takes a lot of reps. It's saying, I may not know the full
story, but I care enough about myself and this other person to find out.
And like any skill, it's gonna be pretty wobbly at first, and it might be wobbly
for quite some time because you'll still fall into these old patterns.
You'll overcorrect, you'll catch yourself sometimes mid reaction
and wish you could rewind.
And while you can't literally pull a Superman and go around the globe
backwards a few times and rewind time, you can ask for a do-over.
That's okay.
It's growth because over time, the fact that you're aware of this, the
fact that you're trying to be more genuinely curious and you're getting
these reps in, then you'll start to notice when the story in your head
isn't really matching the moment.
You'll be able to catch these assumptions before they even escape your mouth.
Staying grounded is such a key component of being more genuinely curious.
If you can stay grounded long enough to learn to respond instead
of react, and that's where you begin to lead with curiosity and
what it feels like to be you.
Is I am.
I am genuinely curious.
I have my thoughts, I have my opinions, but I really want to
know, I really wanna understand what this other person's experience is.
And before we wrap this up, I do wanna throw a couple of acceptance
and commitment therapy tools in here that I think are important.
Your brain's job is narrating.
It's to narrate, it's to judge, it's to predict.
That's not a flaw, it's just wiring it.
It's just the way it is.
But the challenge is if you believe every thought that you have is true, now
you're at the mercy of that script and your brain is just gonna think a whole
lot of words, a whole lot of thoughts.
Uh, instead of things like, man, I'm just so awkward.
Everybody thinks I'm annoying.
It is very powerful just to put a little bit of space there.
Oh, check that out.
I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm awkward, and
the story my brain is telling me is that people find me annoying.
It creates space, it slows the spiral.
It gives you a chance to step back and say, is that helpful?
Is that a productive thought or is it just the familiar And in act, there's
a concept called self as context.
One of the best ways to think about this is you're the sky.
You are, you're not the weather, you are not your anxiety.
You are not your worst day, you're not your best performance.
You're not even the role that you're playing right now.
A parent or partner, the me as a therapist, podcaster friend,
you're the one observing it.
All your thoughts and feelings, they are the weather.
They roll in, they roll out you.
You are the big, beautiful sky.
And when you remember that, curiosity comes a lot easier because you're
no longer defending the storm.
You're watching it, you're learning from it, and choosing how to respond to it.
And that way you can attach more meaning to the parts of the weather that you
really appreciate and you can tolerate the parts that you don't because.
Another key concept in acceptance and commitment therapy is this
term psychological flexibility.
It is about growing in real time because I cannot stress enough.
Every single moment is new.
Every conversation that you're having is the first time you're
ever having that conversation.
Even if the words sound familiar and the person is the same,
it is unchartered territory.
You've never been this version of you in this very moment
with this person right now.
Before I. Because when you maybe were talking to this person in the past,
it was in the past, so of course you don't need to have all the answers,
but your brain is this predictive engine and it is seeking certainty.
And so it is going to start to make prediction.
Psychological flexibility says, I'm gonna stay with what's here right now.
I'm gonna accept what I feel and I will make this choice, this choice point,
and choose my next move based on who I wanna be, not what I want to avoid.
And that's where the work becomes the good work.
That's where the emotional maturity lives.
I've got my four pillars of a connected conversation, and one thing that I don't
talk enough about is when I'm working with individuals, I will call it the
one person four pillared conversation.
So even if the other person that you're interacting with isn't equipped
with these tools, you can be, you can still show up with the four pillars.
You can provide somebody the benefit of the doubt or that there's a reason
why they are showing up this way, or they're saying that things that
they're saying, which allows you to then accept their perspective,
their view makes sense to them.
My pillar two, you cannot tell somebody else that that is ridiculous,
wrong, or I don't believe them.
Even if I think what they're saying is ridiculous, it, I do believe
it's wrong and I don't believe them because that is their perspective.
That is their view, which then leads to pillar three, which
is questions before comments.
Now's your time to seek to understand.
Here's where the genuine curiosity comes.
It's asking more.
It's trying to understand.
It's putting my ego aside.
It's reacting less.
It's responding more.
And then fourth pillar, not going into any kind of victim
mindset or victim mentality.
I'm going to embrace the conversation.
I'm gonna stay in it.
I'm not gonna tap out.
So if I go to someone and I say, Hey, tell me about your day.
Help me understand what's been going on for you.
And they say, I've really been in my head, and I just, it seems
like nobody's there for me.
And that is hard for you because you're literally right here for them right now.
I'm assuming good intentions.
I'm giving them that benefit of the doubt.
I'm accepting that their view of what is going on right now is their view.
So I am not gonna tell 'em they're wrong.
And then I'm gonna go into that third pillar.
I am going to say, tell me more.
Help me understand.
What's that feel like for you?
And as they express themselves, now I'm understanding more about
them and I'm gonna stay present.
Pillar four.
Now at that point, when they feel heard, then I can say.
I appreciate you sharing that, that helps me understand you.
I think one of the traps we into is they're saying, I know exactly how you
feel, which nobody truly knows exactly how we feel, but I'm a, I'm grateful
that you've shared that with me, and that helps me understand your experience more.
Now, first of all, that does sound difficult and how can I show up for you?
Because sometimes when you put it that way, somebody can say things like, I,
I guess I just really need to be heard, or, I really do want your opinion on
what you, if they say, think I should do, then that's, well, I can give you my
opinion on what I assuming that I would do if I were you in that situation, but I
don't know what it feels like to be you.
But all of that comes from a place of leading with curiosity.
You are holding onto yourself.
You stay differentiated, and even if the other person doesn't meet you
there, you'll walk away knowing that you showed up the best way that you could
more emotionally mature, kind, clear.
So wrap this thing up.
True vulnerability means, it does mean owning what you assume.
Sometimes the most vulnerable thing that you can say is.
Hey, I think I made an assumption here.
I assumed that you meant this or I thought I understood, but
I might have missed something.
I would love to hear you.
I would love for you to be able to clarify, or I was so sure I was right,
but I am so open to hearing more.
'cause that kind of vulnerability builds trust.
It doesn't weaken your authority, it earns your respect because curiosity
does not mean giving up your voice.
It means making room for someone else's, and that's where emotional
connection starts to begin.
Lemme give you just a couple of takeaways that you can leave today
and start to do, catch your reaction.
And if you can name the thought, start paying attention to your initial
reaction in these moments of tension.
The next time that you feel defensive or dismissed or rejected.
Pause and ask yourself, what is this story my brain's telling me right now?
And try to use the language like I'm noticing that I'm having a thought that
they don't respect me, instead of they don't respect me, or, oh, check that out.
I'm noticing that I'm starting to feel anger instead of I'm angry.
That simple shift.
It helps you step back from the thought, and it does start to open doors to
curiosity instead of reactivity.
And I would highly recommend that you practice this one
person four pillar conversation.
Choose an interaction this week, maybe with a partner or a child, a coworker,
or even the neighbor who didn't wave.
And then intentionally walk through the four pillars.
Give that person the benefit of the doubt, or there's a reason why they're
doing what they're doing except their perspective, because it's valid to them.
And if you are telling them, that isn't what I said, or I don't, that isn't
what I remember, then I've just told them what their experience is wrong.
Now I can still hold on to what my experience was, but first I
want to seek to understand them with with an open-ended question.
And I'm gonna embrace the conversation instead of shutting
down, instead of trying to avoid it.
And then even if the other person doesn't reciprocate.
Notice how different you feel when you lead with emotional maturity
and you lead with curiosity.
And maybe the most difficult thing, but it could be the most powerful,
is say the vulnerable thing at least once or twice this week.
Practice real humility by saying one thing that reflects emotional ownership.
And that might sound like, I think I made an assumption,
or, Hey, that's on me, my bad.
Or I might not have been seeing this 'cause it's clearly,
can you help me understand?
I really wanna know you or, that's on me.
I thought I was being clear, but I am sure that I'm, that I something that I
said might have been taken the wrong way.
Saying something that shows openness and a willingness to be wrong builds
trust, and it reinforces the identity of somebody who values growth over their ego.
Okay.
Hey, thank you for sticking with me.
That's all I have for you today.
If you ever caught yourself asking a question with a little bit of
an edge or hope any other person gives you the right answer so that
you feel better, just remember you.
You are not alone.
That's part of being a human being.
But you can start to shift it, and that shift starts with being
curious, genuinely curious.
I would be grateful if you subscribe and leave reviews and share this
with somebody who you think might benefit from maybe softening their
questions into true, genuine curiosity.
Until next time, I encourage you all, keep showing up with presence.
Be present, not, not necessarily feeling like you have to protect that ego.
Be curious, and I will see you next time on the virtual couch.