WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.100 The following is based on a true story. 00:00:02.910 --> 00:00:06.990 Sarah burst through the door and she had that familiar energy that always 00:00:06.990 --> 00:00:08.310 put Mark A. Little bit on edge. 00:00:08.730 --> 00:00:11.460 It was the kind of excitement that meant that she had learned something 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:15.570 new today and she couldn't wait to share her superior knowledge. 00:00:15.870 --> 00:00:18.030 Mark, she says, you'll never guess what I learned today. 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.490 She dropped her purse dramatically on the couch. 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:24.900 She said, did you know that it takes exactly nine impressions of seeing a 00:00:24.900 --> 00:00:26.370 product before you actually buy it? 00:00:26.370 --> 00:00:29.940 I'm sure that you do this whenever you see an ad on social media, but it's nine 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:32.820 times, and then that's when you pull the trigger scientific fact that there's 00:00:32.820 --> 00:00:34.590 actually a lot of research behind it. 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.400 Mark looks up from his laptop and he's actually pretty interested 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.940 because he has found himself trying to avoid buying things on 00:00:41.940 --> 00:00:43.530 social media for quite a while now. 00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:45.000 So he says, really? 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:46.140 That is fascinating. 00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:46.590 Nine. 00:00:46.650 --> 00:00:47.760 So specifically nine. 00:00:48.030 --> 00:00:49.920 And she says, oh, yeah, nine, and get this. 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:52.590 She continued because now she sees that he's engaged. 00:00:52.590 --> 00:00:53.760 She's feeling some validation. 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:55.470 She said it also. 00:00:55.545 --> 00:00:59.985 It takes nine unhealthy interactions with a spouse before then you're 00:00:59.985 --> 00:01:00.945 ready to leave the marriage. 00:01:01.485 --> 00:01:03.045 And that is another proven fact. 00:01:03.045 --> 00:01:05.055 And she says, isn't psychology just amazing? 00:01:05.055 --> 00:01:06.915 The research, the data that they have nowadays? 00:01:07.665 --> 00:01:11.205 Now, something about the precision of these claims kind 00:01:11.205 --> 00:01:12.645 of sparked Mark's curiosity. 00:01:12.885 --> 00:01:13.905 That does sound interesting. 00:01:14.445 --> 00:01:16.335 I don't wanna say here's where he made his mistake, but he said, 00:01:17.025 --> 00:01:17.955 are you cool if I look it up? 00:01:18.105 --> 00:01:20.415 Because I love learning about this kind of research. 00:01:20.715 --> 00:01:22.815 So she goes ahead and just waves dismissively. 00:01:22.905 --> 00:01:24.795 Go ahead, but you're not gonna find anything Different. 00:01:25.065 --> 00:01:26.295 Facts are facts. 00:01:26.295 --> 00:01:28.035 Like I always say, facts are facts. 00:01:28.575 --> 00:01:33.435 Mark pulls up this new AI bot that he has that is dialed into research, and 00:01:33.435 --> 00:01:35.295 he starts researching these very things. 00:01:35.715 --> 00:01:40.065 So after a few minutes, he told me, in hindsight, he said, I don't know 00:01:40.065 --> 00:01:42.765 if this was just, I needed to say it because it was the right thing 00:01:42.765 --> 00:01:46.515 to say, or if I'd had this streak in me that just wanted to somewhat get 00:01:46.515 --> 00:01:49.845 punished, but he turns back to Sarah. 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:53.130 He has a very thoughtful expression on his face, and he said, so, 00:01:53.130 --> 00:01:54.120 honey, this is interesting. 00:01:54.390 --> 00:01:57.990 I found some really fascinating research, but it turns out that neither 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.940 one of those specific claims about the number nine are actually supported by 00:02:02.940 --> 00:02:04.860 research or by scientific evidence. 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:08.639 And Sarah's face immediately shifted, what do you mean? 00:02:08.789 --> 00:02:09.570 Do you think I'm lying? 00:02:10.289 --> 00:02:12.720 And he said, no, it's not that I just thought this was interesting. 00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:15.960 He said, well, for the advertising claim, the research actually shows that 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:17.910 it's, it's quite a bit more complex. 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:21.000 There was this influential work by this guy named Michael Naples. 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.540 It was back in the late seventies, and it suggested that actually three 00:02:24.540 --> 00:02:29.610 exposures might be optimal, but the more recent analysis by this. 00:02:30.060 --> 00:02:32.250 Researcher named Schmidt had a partner named Eisen. 00:02:32.489 --> 00:02:37.739 They found that attitude change actually peaks around 10 exposures, not even nine. 00:02:38.130 --> 00:02:42.420 But the whole field has moved away from fixed numbers because it depends on so 00:02:42.420 --> 00:02:45.239 many variables, which makes sense because we have more opportunity, more access 00:02:45.239 --> 00:02:50.130 to things, more screens, to which Sarah said that's that's absolutely not true. 00:02:50.190 --> 00:02:51.570 That's a hundred percent wrong. 00:02:52.230 --> 00:02:52.890 Mark. 00:02:52.980 --> 00:02:53.910 Continued gently. 00:02:54.359 --> 00:02:54.839 Okay. 00:02:55.350 --> 00:02:57.089 This is kind of fascinating except for relationships. 00:02:57.089 --> 00:03:00.750 The research on why people staying in unhealthy situations actually focuses 00:03:00.750 --> 00:03:05.549 more on things like a trauma bond or financial things, investment models 00:03:05.549 --> 00:03:11.250 that, psychological barriers rather than just tick box of negative experiences. 00:03:11.760 --> 00:03:15.810 And then of course, they mentioned DV and survivors making an average 00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:17.130 of maybe seven attempts to lead. 00:03:17.130 --> 00:03:20.040 But even that, and she said, mark, stop it. 00:03:20.730 --> 00:03:24.630 Sarah's voice had taken on that to that tone that he knew all too well. 00:03:25.079 --> 00:03:25.829 You are wrong. 00:03:26.430 --> 00:03:28.950 There are so many more things that involve the number nine. 00:03:28.980 --> 00:03:29.220 It. 00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:31.530 Obviously is significant. 00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:33.300 She said, do you know what else involves in number nine? 00:03:33.750 --> 00:03:34.350 Cloud nine. 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:35.820 That's where the expression comes from. 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:37.410 How many lives do cats have? 00:03:37.710 --> 00:03:38.340 Nine. 00:03:38.850 --> 00:03:41.700 There are nine planets there were before they demoted Pluto. 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.620 Nine months of pregnancy. 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:45.450 Nine justices on the Supreme Court. 00:03:45.930 --> 00:03:49.170 The whole human experience is actually built around the number nine. 00:03:49.170 --> 00:03:52.829 So it makes perfect sense that I'm right, that familiar feeling 00:03:52.829 --> 00:03:54.300 hit mark's gut like a lead weight. 00:03:54.540 --> 00:03:57.060 This the sinking sensation of defeat. 00:03:57.630 --> 00:04:00.720 'cause it turns out, and he said, I really should have known better. 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:05.400 Sarah wasn't interested in a conversation about research or learning together. 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.010 There was not genuine curiosity. 00:04:08.610 --> 00:04:14.160 She had wanted him to accept these facts, then be amazed, and then 00:04:14.190 --> 00:04:18.240 validate her incessantly and have him acknowledge her superior knowledge. 00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:22.079 But if you've ever been in a relationship like this, you know what? 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.000 Mark found out it got worse. 00:04:24.450 --> 00:04:27.450 You know what, mark, Sarah's voice was now getting pretty, pretty salty. 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:32.280 The very fact that you immediately tried to prove me wrong, that's on you. 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:35.520 That shows your insecurities because you know what, you're scared to 00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:38.100 admit that your wife knows more than you do, and I always do. 00:04:38.430 --> 00:04:41.160 You can't stand it when I'm right about something and you are wrong. 00:04:41.190 --> 00:04:45.270 Can you, mark said he felt his chest tighten and he said, Sarah, I I really, 00:04:45.270 --> 00:04:46.800 I wasn't trying to prove you wrong. 00:04:46.830 --> 00:04:49.140 I was just, you are being too sensitive about this. 00:04:49.140 --> 00:04:54.270 She said, and if I share anything with you ever, and it's of interest to me 00:04:54.630 --> 00:04:57.870 and I share it with you, you immediately have to turn to your computer and you 00:04:57.870 --> 00:05:00.210 try desperately to make me look stupid. 00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:01.320 What does that say about you? 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.830 Mark said, this is a very familiar script that was playing out. 00:05:05.130 --> 00:05:08.790 Sarah's voice grew more agitated and her gestures became more dramatic, 00:05:09.090 --> 00:05:12.930 and she was building momentum and she was approaching that amygdala hijack 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:18.270 where Mark knew at that point that there is nothing that he can do soon. 00:05:18.390 --> 00:05:20.160 He knew it was inevitable. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:21.810 He would find himself apologizing. 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:23.550 He thought Might as well get to it. 00:05:24.135 --> 00:05:26.114 Sarah, I, uh, I'm so sorry. 00:05:26.114 --> 00:05:26.924 You're, you know what? 00:05:26.924 --> 00:05:27.734 You're absolutely right. 00:05:27.765 --> 00:05:28.695 I should have just listened. 00:05:28.695 --> 00:05:32.234 I don't know, because you really are smart and I just, I don't think 00:05:32.234 --> 00:05:33.585 I appreciate that enough about you. 00:05:34.245 --> 00:05:36.075 Sarah's expression softened a little bit. 00:05:36.405 --> 00:05:40.215 She said, okay, you're not just saying that because you think you're in trouble. 00:05:40.215 --> 00:05:41.655 And he said, no, no, I really mean it. 00:05:42.195 --> 00:05:43.125 She said, okay, thank you. 00:05:43.635 --> 00:05:47.565 That's, that is all that I really wanted was for you to acknowledge that 00:05:47.565 --> 00:05:49.365 I actually know things that you don't. 00:05:49.995 --> 00:05:54.585 But internally, mark said that he was screaming, why do I even try to have 00:05:54.585 --> 00:05:55.935 these conversations with her anymore? 00:05:56.534 --> 00:05:58.185 He filed this experience away as yet. 00:05:58.185 --> 00:05:59.054 Just another lesson. 00:05:59.054 --> 00:06:00.075 Say nothing at all. 00:06:00.465 --> 00:06:02.265 Just nod and smile. 00:06:02.294 --> 00:06:03.195 Smile and wave. 00:06:03.195 --> 00:06:06.645 Boys, as he had heard, the penguins of Madagascar say themselves and 00:06:06.645 --> 00:06:08.385 agree, it was safer that way. 00:06:09.224 --> 00:06:11.385 Now the story unfortunately doesn't even end here. 00:06:11.385 --> 00:06:13.905 Later that afternoon, mark said he stepped outside to get a little bit 00:06:13.905 --> 00:06:17.234 of fresh air, found his neighbor, Jim, watering plants in the front yard. 00:06:17.835 --> 00:06:18.375 Hey, mark. 00:06:18.435 --> 00:06:18.929 Jim called out. 00:06:19.270 --> 00:06:20.810 He looked like somebody stole your lunch money. 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:21.409 Everything okay? 00:06:22.875 --> 00:06:23.715 Mark hesitated. 00:06:24.044 --> 00:06:25.125 How do you explain this? 00:06:25.305 --> 00:06:28.484 Well, it's the, my wife told me that it takes nine impressions before 00:06:28.484 --> 00:06:31.094 you purchase something and then, well, it's kind of complicated. 00:06:31.515 --> 00:06:36.315 So Mark tried that and Jim looked puzzled and he shrugged and he said, 00:06:36.525 --> 00:06:37.515 lemme give you a little advice. 00:06:37.905 --> 00:06:41.115 We all have little disagreements sometimes in our marriage, and I'm sure 00:06:41.115 --> 00:06:42.705 that it was just a big misunderstanding. 00:06:42.794 --> 00:06:43.484 You know what you should do? 00:06:43.695 --> 00:06:47.174 Go on in there and explain to her that she must have misunderstood you. 00:06:48.164 --> 00:06:52.065 Mark's internal response was immediate and definitive. 00:06:52.724 --> 00:06:53.655 Are you crazy? 00:06:54.075 --> 00:06:56.655 And that is the last thing that I'm gonna do. 00:06:57.495 --> 00:06:59.775 What Jim and most people don't understand and these types of 00:06:59.775 --> 00:07:03.075 relationships, is this was not about a simple disagreement over stats. 00:07:03.794 --> 00:07:04.604 This was a pattern. 00:07:05.505 --> 00:07:10.635 And welcome everybody to another episode of Death by a thousand Cuts. 00:07:11.370 --> 00:07:15.180 There's a ancient Chinese torture method called Lean Chi, also 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:17.034 known as death by a thousand cuts. 00:07:17.430 --> 00:07:21.510 And what it involved was inflicting numerous small little wounds that 00:07:21.510 --> 00:07:25.830 individually wouldn't be fatal, but you put 'em all together and it would 00:07:25.830 --> 00:07:27.719 slowly drain the life from the victim. 00:07:28.349 --> 00:07:32.039 Now, an emotionally abusive relationships, the same principle applies, and it's not 00:07:32.039 --> 00:07:36.390 usually one dramatic, obvious incident that destroys somebody's sense of self. 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:40.799 It's this accumulation of hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of these 00:07:40.799 --> 00:07:44.340 small moments like this one 'cause Mark. 00:07:44.340 --> 00:07:47.700 What he found was each time he shared genuine curiosity or knowledge 00:07:47.969 --> 00:07:51.000 only to be shut down and made to feel wrong for his thinking. 00:07:51.299 --> 00:07:54.539 Each time his attempted intellectual connection was reframed as an 00:07:54.539 --> 00:07:55.919 attack on Sarah's intelligence. 00:07:56.190 --> 00:08:00.330 And each time that he ended up apologizing for these things that he didn't do, 00:08:00.359 --> 00:08:01.859 these crimes he really didn't commit. 00:08:02.219 --> 00:08:05.130 Each time he learned that sharing his thoughts wasn't safe. 00:08:05.609 --> 00:08:06.150 One cut. 00:08:06.510 --> 00:08:07.469 Hey, you're too sensitive. 00:08:07.905 --> 00:08:08.805 Here comes another cut. 00:08:09.285 --> 00:08:10.815 You can't stand when I'm right, can you? 00:08:11.055 --> 00:08:11.625 It's another cut. 00:08:11.865 --> 00:08:15.315 You're insecure and another you don't appreciate me and another you 00:08:15.315 --> 00:08:16.815 are always wrong and I am right. 00:08:16.815 --> 00:08:20.475 And individually, these might seem like relationship friction, but when 00:08:20.475 --> 00:08:25.275 they happen repeatedly in response to normal human conversations, they do 00:08:25.275 --> 00:08:29.295 start to create a pattern of emotional erosion to the relationship because 00:08:29.295 --> 00:08:31.455 the victim learns to self silence. 00:08:31.575 --> 00:08:37.335 To second guess their own perceptions, and maybe even worse, is to betray their own 00:08:37.335 --> 00:08:39.705 self to apologize for their own thoughts. 00:08:40.545 --> 00:08:44.205 Mark's instinct eventually developed into this, say nothing at all and 00:08:44.205 --> 00:08:48.285 not as a form of weakness, but it becomes survival because when genuine 00:08:48.285 --> 00:08:53.055 engagement consistently results in being made to feel wrong or less than, 00:08:53.085 --> 00:08:57.765 or something's wrong with him, then the logical response is to stop engaging. 00:08:58.305 --> 00:09:02.115 Today we're gonna talk about cuts, the emotional kind. 00:09:02.984 --> 00:09:06.795 'cause it's fascinating that these seemingly insignificant small interactions 00:09:06.795 --> 00:09:11.385 built up over time can truly accumulate into something devastating and rob 00:09:11.385 --> 00:09:13.755 you of your entire sense of self. 00:09:14.594 --> 00:09:19.334 So we're gonna talk about that and so much more coming up after Riley 00:09:19.334 --> 00:09:21.740 Hope's amazing song, not My Job. 00:09:22.275 --> 00:09:25.060 And I hope you'll go check that out wherever you download music 00:09:32.609 --> 00:09:33.780 care of you. 00:09:34.545 --> 00:09:34.905 Hey everybody. 00:09:34.905 --> 00:09:38.204 Welcome to another episode of Waking Up the Narcissism. 00:09:38.625 --> 00:09:42.734 This is episode nine of The Death by a Thousand Cut series. 00:09:42.915 --> 00:09:43.964 I'm your host, Tony Obba. 00:09:43.964 --> 00:09:45.525 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:09:45.765 --> 00:09:46.724 Please go follow me. 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:52.170 At Virtual Couch on Instagram or at Virtual couch on TikTok or Tony over 00:09:52.170 --> 00:09:54.870 Bay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist on Facebook, go check 00:09:54.870 --> 00:09:56.460 out my website, tony over bay.com. 00:09:56.460 --> 00:09:58.530 Sign up for the newsletter and you'll get all the information you 00:09:58.530 --> 00:10:02.310 need to know on upcoming courses and live question and answers that are 00:10:02.310 --> 00:10:03.990 happening on TikTok on Instagram. 00:10:04.290 --> 00:10:08.100 And my friend Julie De Jesus and I are hosting a cruise, 00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:10.110 like on a boat, on the water. 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:14.250 We're gonna be talking about mental health and resilience and emotional intelligence. 00:10:14.250 --> 00:10:17.040 And if you find me there, I'll answer every marriage question that you've 00:10:17.040 --> 00:10:18.900 ever had or individual question. 00:10:19.680 --> 00:10:23.490 I'm also gonna make an attempt of my personal record of six molten lava 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:25.350 chocolate cakes in one, one evening. 00:10:25.710 --> 00:10:27.480 So I think I can, I think I can take that down. 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:32.040 You'll find more information about that in, in the show notes and also 00:10:32.040 --> 00:10:33.570 on some social media posts as well. 00:10:33.570 --> 00:10:35.820 So I would love to see you there and stay tuned. 00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:38.580 At the end of today's episode, I dip my toes in the water of a little bit 00:10:38.580 --> 00:10:41.700 of a meditation exercise about the content that we're gonna cover today. 00:10:42.300 --> 00:10:46.290 And if you have your own Death by a thousand cut story, please email me 00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:48.150 through my website@tonyoverbay.com. 00:10:48.300 --> 00:10:52.140 I would love to, to share it on an upcoming episode, or it might even just 00:10:52.140 --> 00:10:54.360 feel therapeutic to, to get it out there. 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:57.600 So even if you don't want it shared, but you want to send it to 00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:59.070 me, I would be honored to read it. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.600 I wanna start with an email today, and this is gonna set the, the stage even 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.570 more about these Death by a thousand Cuts episodes and the reason why 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.580 we're doing a ninth iteration of them. 00:11:09.135 --> 00:11:10.035 The email says, hi Tony. 00:11:10.035 --> 00:11:13.095 You have no idea how much I appreciate your death by a thousand Cuts episode. 00:11:13.155 --> 00:11:15.855 I've listened to all of them multiple times, and I've forwarded them to 00:11:15.855 --> 00:11:19.995 people close to me, and that has been so helpful for the people who I now 00:11:19.995 --> 00:11:23.535 know truly care about me and are trying to grasp what I've been going through. 00:11:23.955 --> 00:11:26.955 I've also made the mistake of sending them to people who I hoped would 00:11:26.955 --> 00:11:30.375 understand only to receive responses like, okay, don't you think that's a 00:11:30.375 --> 00:11:32.895 little bit dramatic to put all these things on a podcast episode just 00:11:32.895 --> 00:11:34.125 so this guy can get some attention? 00:11:34.545 --> 00:11:36.225 Everybody does little things that annoy each other. 00:11:37.125 --> 00:11:40.425 She said, that was from somebody that I always thought had my back. 00:11:40.605 --> 00:11:43.245 But that very comment caused me to look back over our friendship. 00:11:43.245 --> 00:11:46.365 And sure enough, I realized I was there for her when she needed 00:11:46.365 --> 00:11:49.665 me, but I can't say that she's truly ever been there for me. 00:11:50.685 --> 00:11:53.925 But for the people who care, these episodes have helped them realize 00:11:53.925 --> 00:11:57.255 that the things I've been dealing with, things that might seem small or 00:11:57.255 --> 00:12:00.975 insignificant on their own, have been slowly killing me from the inside. 00:12:01.785 --> 00:12:04.995 Listening to one of your early death by a thousand cuts was the first time 00:12:04.995 --> 00:12:08.085 I felt truly validated or I think seen is the current mental health word. 00:12:08.265 --> 00:12:10.485 They helped me see that I wasn't crazy. 00:12:10.545 --> 00:12:14.175 I truly believe that I have worth, I have value, and I no longer need to convince 00:12:14.175 --> 00:12:18.375 my now ex of that because that was one of the main things that was causing me 00:12:18.375 --> 00:12:23.745 to feel like I had no worth trying to make him see that I mattered, that my 00:12:23.745 --> 00:12:26.865 opinions mattered, and that it's okay for two people to have different thoughts 00:12:26.925 --> 00:12:28.815 and feelings and experiences and dreams. 00:12:29.175 --> 00:12:29.925 That wasn't healthy. 00:12:30.435 --> 00:12:33.045 It was a waste of, as you say, Tony, my emotional calories. 00:12:33.375 --> 00:12:35.505 I finally understand what you mean when you say that. 00:12:35.505 --> 00:12:39.225 Every interaction is really a chance for me to confront myself. 00:12:39.615 --> 00:12:44.085 I can now see what is a me thing and what is a them thing, and I 00:12:44.085 --> 00:12:47.775 honestly appreciate the me things because I can work on those for me. 00:12:48.735 --> 00:12:51.375 And what's even more freeing, that's where it ends. 00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:53.460 I don't have to take care of his emotions. 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:57.180 Taking blame for something to keep the peace one minute and then literally 00:12:57.180 --> 00:12:59.910 the next minute have to praise him for how he would never do what I 00:12:59.910 --> 00:13:03.480 just owned up to, that I only owned up to so that he wouldn't rage or 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:08.520 disengage and then he would expect me to praise him for being so self-aware. 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:11.580 And since I'm praising him, he was sure that I probably would 00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:15.270 want to have sex with him and the cycle would go on and on and on. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.760 I don't need the other person to get it anymore. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.520 I don't need them to get me anymore because I get me. 00:13:20.670 --> 00:13:21.390 I get it. 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:22.740 Would it be great if they did? 00:13:22.950 --> 00:13:23.460 Of course. 00:13:23.970 --> 00:13:27.450 But I'm now finding myself surrounded more and more by people who actually want to 00:13:27.450 --> 00:13:31.920 understand me, who care about getting to know me, and something wild is happening. 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:36.210 What you call pathological kindness, it's losing the pathological part. 00:13:36.420 --> 00:13:36.720 Thank you. 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:37.110 Tony. 00:13:37.170 --> 00:13:38.040 Here's to many more. 00:13:38.040 --> 00:13:39.540 Death by a thousand cuts episodes. 00:13:39.540 --> 00:13:41.820 I hope they keep reaching the women and men. 00:13:42.209 --> 00:13:45.390 Now that I'm out of my marriage and I'm not consumed by trying to figure out 00:13:45.390 --> 00:13:50.760 what's wrong with me, I now see that my brother also a pathologically kind human, 00:13:51.089 --> 00:13:52.829 is in a similar marriage that I was in. 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:55.140 And my heart goes out to the guys trying to navigate these 00:13:55.140 --> 00:13:58.500 relationships because he's a big, strong guy, so nobody believes him. 00:13:58.890 --> 00:14:02.219 But I hope these episodes continue to find people who are stuck in narcissistic 00:14:02.550 --> 00:14:05.910 or emotionally immature relationships, people who don't yet know their own worth. 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:08.100 'cause I promise that worth is in there. 00:14:08.730 --> 00:14:13.260 That email is exactly why we're here, because somewhere out there, somebody is 00:14:13.260 --> 00:14:17.010 standing in their kitchen wondering why a simple conversation about statistics 00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:19.680 left them feeling defeated and confused. 00:14:20.339 --> 00:14:23.640 Somebody is learning to stay quiet rather than to engage. 00:14:23.640 --> 00:14:26.459 And somebody unfortunately is apologizing for the things that they 00:14:26.459 --> 00:14:28.230 didn't do to try to keep the peace. 00:14:28.770 --> 00:14:32.310 So today we're gonna explore a lot of these seemingly minor interactions 00:14:32.610 --> 00:14:36.959 and the damage that they create, and most importantly, how to recognize 00:14:36.959 --> 00:14:41.250 when you are being slowly cut to pieces by a thousand small wounds. 00:14:41.865 --> 00:14:44.985 So let's start with a doozy. 00:14:45.224 --> 00:14:48.615 This person said, when we entered mediation, I was told again 00:14:49.094 --> 00:14:51.344 that he just wanted to make sure that I was taken care of. 00:14:51.974 --> 00:14:55.005 But then he started going through my expenses, line by line, deciding 00:14:55.005 --> 00:14:57.495 what I could keep spending money on and what I should cut out like 00:14:57.495 --> 00:14:59.175 he was the judge of my new life. 00:14:59.805 --> 00:15:03.255 He tried to base alimony on some of his lowest earning years, not 00:15:03.255 --> 00:15:05.834 the average of what he consistently made throughout our marriage. 00:15:06.464 --> 00:15:09.645 And when we started discussing the debt, I found out that he hadn't even been 00:15:09.645 --> 00:15:11.265 honest about some of what was owed. 00:15:12.104 --> 00:15:16.574 I've been a stay at home mom to our six kids, most of our marriage. 00:15:16.665 --> 00:15:20.145 Eventually I got a modest job that barely paid above minimum wage, 00:15:20.655 --> 00:15:21.974 but I was still proud of myself. 00:15:22.589 --> 00:15:25.709 Still though he had a high paying professional job with a lot of 00:15:25.709 --> 00:15:29.490 flexibility in his schedule, but he expected me to split housework, 00:15:29.699 --> 00:15:31.650 childcare, and everything 50 50. 00:15:32.280 --> 00:15:35.880 And now that we were divorcing, he acted like I was trying to ruin him financially 00:15:35.880 --> 00:15:37.829 just by asking for what the law allows. 00:15:38.219 --> 00:15:39.780 I wasn't trying to take him for everything. 00:15:39.930 --> 00:15:42.540 I was just trying to land on my feet, but I could feel it. 00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:46.560 The more I tried to advocate for myself, the more he tried to punish me. 00:15:47.310 --> 00:15:51.240 These are the stories that just, they just infuriate me. 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.849 They really do because it's one of those moments where I just really 00:15:53.849 --> 00:16:00.030 believe the emotionally immature or the narcissistic trait state or disordered 00:16:00.030 --> 00:16:02.609 person, they reveal their true colors. 00:16:02.609 --> 00:16:05.490 They may say a thing like, I just want what's best for you. 00:16:05.490 --> 00:16:08.849 You're the mother of my kids and I don't want this to be difficult. 00:16:08.849 --> 00:16:14.640 Those sound great, and those are what would be a wonderful thing to say, but. 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:16.980 That isn't what they truly feel on the inside. 00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:21.630 When somebody who has benefited from their spouse's sacrifices the late 00:16:21.630 --> 00:16:26.010 nights, the diaper changes, the forgotten dreams, the unpaid labor of raising 00:16:26.010 --> 00:16:29.640 children, and then they just flip that switch the second the marriage ends. 00:16:30.180 --> 00:16:32.670 That's not about fairness, that becomes more about control. 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.910 He says, I will take care of you, whatever that looks like. 00:16:36.390 --> 00:16:39.660 But then he picks apart her finances and then he is dishonest about debt 00:16:39.780 --> 00:16:43.920 and he low balls alimony based on this cherry picked data that wasn't even what 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:46.140 the court factored into the formula. 00:16:46.290 --> 00:16:49.410 And then he acts like she's the one that is being unreasonable, 00:16:49.410 --> 00:16:50.640 trying to take him to the cleaners. 00:16:51.210 --> 00:16:53.460 That's not somebody who is trying to take care of somebody. 00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:54.750 That's somebody who's trying to win. 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.230 And I know what it looks like when somebody truly cares because I 00:16:58.230 --> 00:16:59.910 get to see this on a daily basis. 00:17:00.210 --> 00:17:04.050 I have worked with hundreds of couples that are navigating the 00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.970 challenging waters of a divorce. 00:17:06.895 --> 00:17:10.585 I've had, uh, men, and I'm gonna go with the gender stereotype, right? 00:17:10.675 --> 00:17:11.365 For this moment. 00:17:11.695 --> 00:17:14.005 High earning husbands sit across from me and say, of course 00:17:14.005 --> 00:17:14.665 I'm gonna take care of her. 00:17:14.665 --> 00:17:15.655 She's the mother of my kids. 00:17:15.655 --> 00:17:16.915 If I punish her, I punish them. 00:17:17.335 --> 00:17:18.265 Why would I do that? 00:17:18.899 --> 00:17:20.550 But then I've seen the opposite. 00:17:20.849 --> 00:17:24.899 And what's fascinating is each of these people that are saying these things, 00:17:24.929 --> 00:17:26.819 they're just having their experience. 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.100 I get to see a lot of these different experiences. 00:17:29.100 --> 00:17:32.280 So I know that it exists because what this opposite looks like, like 00:17:32.280 --> 00:17:35.010 in this story where the emotionally mature or narcissistic husband says 00:17:35.010 --> 00:17:37.784 the same things on the surface, I want what's best for her, the kids. 00:17:38.310 --> 00:17:42.300 But actions tell a very, very different story because when you intentionally 00:17:42.510 --> 00:17:45.479 then create a financial hardship for the mother of your children, 00:17:45.810 --> 00:17:50.070 especially when you know that you're in a far better position financially, 00:17:50.340 --> 00:17:51.870 you're not prioritizing your kids. 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:55.229 You're trying to punish the person who had the courage to leave you. 00:17:55.770 --> 00:17:59.729 You're trying to hurt the one who stopped making your comfort, their full-time job. 00:17:59.909 --> 00:18:04.439 And uh, I wanna be clear, this is not just about the good guys versus the bad guys. 00:18:04.770 --> 00:18:07.649 This is about emotional maturity because it's about what happens when 00:18:07.649 --> 00:18:10.979 somebody who has never learned how to sit in discomfort or how to grieve 00:18:10.979 --> 00:18:14.100 or how to face rejection, or how to handle not getting their way without 00:18:14.100 --> 00:18:15.780 needing somebody else to pay for it. 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:20.340 Because in, in the emotionally immature mind, every hard moment, everything 00:18:20.340 --> 00:18:23.910 like this becomes a zero sum game, and there's a winner and a loser. 00:18:24.090 --> 00:18:26.340 If she wins, I lose. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.020 If she's right, I must be wrong. 00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:31.020 And that cannot happen because the ego of the narcissist or 00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:33.240 the incredibly emotionally immature partner won't allow it. 00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:37.590 So instead of facing their own pain and their insecurities and the unknown, which 00:18:37.590 --> 00:18:42.600 is uncertain, and that is difficult, they make it about fairness or dignity or the 00:18:42.600 --> 00:18:44.640 kids, but the truth is about punishment. 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:49.230 If you are, if you're hearing this and it feels way too familiar, I want you to 00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:53.820 know you are not crazy for wanting basic fairness or things that the law allows. 00:18:53.820 --> 00:18:56.040 You're not greedy for asking to be treated with dignity 00:18:56.250 --> 00:18:59.190 after years of self-sacrifice. 00:18:59.310 --> 00:19:02.040 You're not a villain for saying, uh, no. 00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:05.430 You don't get to decide what I need or what I deserve anymore, especially 00:19:05.430 --> 00:19:06.720 when we're no longer married. 00:19:07.350 --> 00:19:09.660 You're waking up and you're definitely not alone. 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:12.870 Maybe this is a great time to pitch either my men's emotional 00:19:12.870 --> 00:19:16.170 Architect's course, reach out to me or my private women's Facebook group. 00:19:16.470 --> 00:19:17.130 Reach out to me. 00:19:18.030 --> 00:19:18.210 Okay. 00:19:18.210 --> 00:19:21.780 The next one, this person said, there was something going on with my brother. 00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:25.620 It was a really painful situation that had been weighing on me for a long time and 00:19:25.620 --> 00:19:27.270 for almost a year, I kept it to myself. 00:19:27.300 --> 00:19:29.970 I didn't tell my husband even though we were still technically married 00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:33.240 and living under the same roof, and the reason I didn't tell him wasn't 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:34.500 because I didn't want connection. 00:19:34.620 --> 00:19:39.600 It was because I learned over the years seemed to be every time I shared something 00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:43.500 deeply personal, something vulnerable, something even at times sacred, it 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:45.060 would eventually come back to haunt me. 00:19:45.765 --> 00:19:48.555 I didn't have anybody else I could talk to at the time, and the weight of 00:19:48.555 --> 00:19:50.625 carrying this alone just got too heavy. 00:19:51.045 --> 00:19:54.315 So I relented, and in a moment of vulnerability and in a moment 00:19:54.315 --> 00:19:57.315 where I truly hoped he would still get this aha moment, I told him 00:19:57.525 --> 00:19:58.635 what was going on with my brother. 00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:02.805 Sure enough, less than 24 hours later during an argument between my 00:20:02.805 --> 00:20:05.085 husband and I, he used it as a weapon. 00:20:05.325 --> 00:20:08.295 His exact words were, well, you are a bad mom. 00:20:08.445 --> 00:20:11.445 The mistakes that your mom made with your brother, oh, you're making the same ones 00:20:11.445 --> 00:20:14.535 right now with our oldest son, and he is gonna turn out just like your brother. 00:20:14.595 --> 00:20:15.465 Probably even worse. 00:20:15.975 --> 00:20:20.445 And that was the moment that I realized I hadn't confided in a partner. 00:20:20.685 --> 00:20:23.955 I had handed a weapon to somebody who saw pain as leverage. 00:20:24.915 --> 00:20:25.815 This one runs deep. 00:20:26.790 --> 00:20:30.780 When you are being open and vulnerable to a truly narcissistic or an incredibly 00:20:30.780 --> 00:20:34.260 emotionally mature person, you are handing them buttons to be pushed. 00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:37.860 And I see that so often in this time of emotional vulnerability, when you 00:20:37.860 --> 00:20:39.840 really hope this could be a connection. 00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:42.210 And at times it really feels like it is in that moment. 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:47.970 Because at the core of healthy intimacy between a couple is emotional safety. 00:20:48.300 --> 00:20:51.900 It's emotional consistency, it's stability, it's concern, it's caring. 00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:56.220 It's the understanding that when you hand somebody your heart, they are not 00:20:56.220 --> 00:21:00.780 gonna use it as ammo or stomp on it on the ground just because they're upset. 00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:03.690 Because that is a form of emotional betrayal. 00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:08.130 And what this teaches you is that your deepest wounds aren't safe. 00:21:08.730 --> 00:21:11.430 And that changes everything because now you're gonna start to 00:21:11.430 --> 00:21:12.720 question, well, what can I say? 00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:14.610 And then you stop saying anything at all. 00:21:15.165 --> 00:21:18.465 That's when isolation sits in where the person who's in one of 00:21:18.465 --> 00:21:21.435 these narcissistic or emotionally immature or abusive relationships 00:21:21.705 --> 00:21:24.585 starts to turn inward because they do feel like, what is wrong with me? 00:21:24.585 --> 00:21:27.735 They waste so many emotional calories trying to figure out what did I do? 00:21:27.735 --> 00:21:29.054 Or could I have said that different? 00:21:29.774 --> 00:21:33.495 This is what makes it a cut because it's not just about that one cruel 00:21:33.495 --> 00:21:37.875 comment, it's about what happens next because then you have to pull back 00:21:37.905 --> 00:21:41.774 and you armor up and you learn that vulnerability is dangerous and that the 00:21:41.774 --> 00:21:45.855 one person who should protect you will actually use your story against you. 00:21:46.395 --> 00:21:49.965 I'm a huge acceptance and commitment therapy fan, and there's this concept 00:21:49.965 --> 00:21:54.014 around psychological flexibility of every moment is the first time that you are you. 00:21:54.014 --> 00:21:57.645 In that moment you may assume or think it's gonna go a certain way, but you 00:21:57.645 --> 00:22:00.764 have the psychological flexibility to pivot to make a different choice. 00:22:00.764 --> 00:22:05.054 But usually those are making a a choice toward something of value, 00:22:05.415 --> 00:22:08.955 something that matters and unfortunately that psychological flexibility 00:22:08.955 --> 00:22:12.405 or that choice point here is that your emotional flexibility will 00:22:12.405 --> 00:22:14.534 start to shrink 'cause you will. 00:22:15.014 --> 00:22:16.965 Realize you don't feel free to show up as yourself. 00:22:17.625 --> 00:22:19.514 And I'm a huge differentiation fan. 00:22:19.605 --> 00:22:22.965 And there is where we're gonna realize, okay, if I look at that 00:22:22.965 --> 00:22:26.745 as this is a me thing, I now need to realize that this is not safe. 00:22:26.774 --> 00:22:30.405 This is not somebody that I'm going to seek a connection with, or especially 00:22:30.405 --> 00:22:32.115 not looking for any type of validation. 00:22:32.534 --> 00:22:36.945 This is not a safe we, this is a place then where your own me gets erased. 00:22:37.095 --> 00:22:40.784 Another example, and if you're new to these Death by a thousand cuts episodes, 00:22:40.845 --> 00:22:44.895 they may seem a little bit small at times, but they, boy, they add up. 00:22:44.955 --> 00:22:47.715 This one is a disagreement about a car, but it's the kind of 00:22:47.715 --> 00:22:50.294 situation that becomes one of these death by a thousand cuts moments. 00:22:50.294 --> 00:22:53.445 And once you hear it, I think you'll see why someone wrote in and said, 00:22:53.504 --> 00:22:56.325 there was a day when I needed to take one of our kids to an important event. 00:22:56.325 --> 00:22:57.825 And it was roughly 10 miles away. 00:22:58.710 --> 00:22:59.760 We only had one car. 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:03.120 And so I asked my husband, Hey, can I take the car? 00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:04.410 And he immediately shut it down. 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.500 He said, oh no, I need to take the car to take one of our other kids to practice. 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.370 And then he added almost casually, you guys can ride a bike there. 00:23:11.370 --> 00:23:13.260 We got bikes if you want, if you really need to go. 00:23:13.710 --> 00:23:17.310 Now, keep in mind the practice that he was referring to was 00:23:17.310 --> 00:23:18.810 maybe a couple of miles away. 00:23:19.470 --> 00:23:20.220 He had options. 00:23:20.610 --> 00:23:23.250 But where I needed to go was 10 miles away. 00:23:23.550 --> 00:23:26.340 I would be biking with a roughly 10-year-old kid. 00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:28.440 So I responded pretty calmly. 00:23:28.470 --> 00:23:29.820 Okay, how come? 00:23:29.820 --> 00:23:31.230 I'm curious, why aren't you taking the bike? 00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:33.570 'cause it's not, it's not that far. 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:36.630 And his reply, and it was delivered without irony. 00:23:36.630 --> 00:23:40.470 She said, you don't really expect me to ride a bike and weather this cold, do you? 00:23:41.310 --> 00:23:45.660 And she said, it's one of these moments where she couldn't even believe that 00:23:45.810 --> 00:23:49.380 he was literally saying that it's perfectly fine for his wife and then 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:53.340 their 10-year-old to ride bikes for about 10 miles to an appointment. 00:23:53.610 --> 00:23:55.740 But for him, that weather was a little bit too much. 00:23:56.595 --> 00:24:00.225 This is a masterclass in emotional immaturity because it's not about the car, 00:24:00.225 --> 00:24:02.325 obviously, it's about whose needs matter. 00:24:03.135 --> 00:24:05.775 Uh, it's about the double standard because he immediately decides 00:24:05.835 --> 00:24:07.755 well, the car is his to use. 00:24:08.325 --> 00:24:11.415 Uh, even though both parents needed it, then without hesitation, 00:24:11.565 --> 00:24:15.045 then he just suggests, Hey, uh, you guys ride your bikes. 00:24:15.855 --> 00:24:18.525 And then when it's flipped back on him, now it's outrageous. 00:24:18.975 --> 00:24:20.325 He shouldn't have to ride in the cold. 00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:21.705 The the message is very clear. 00:24:21.705 --> 00:24:24.825 His discomfort matters far more than hers. 00:24:24.945 --> 00:24:27.585 And I think there's so many other things at play here, is that he just 00:24:27.585 --> 00:24:31.845 impulsively is thinking of himself as a good, old, narcissistic person 00:24:31.845 --> 00:24:33.615 does, or incredibly emotionally mature. 00:24:34.155 --> 00:24:36.045 It's the reflexive nature of it. 00:24:36.045 --> 00:24:37.395 It's, well, I'm not doing it. 00:24:38.415 --> 00:24:41.774 What's so fascinating is this is why that human magnet syndrome exists. 00:24:41.774 --> 00:24:45.225 Or most of the narcissistic people or incredibly emotionally mature people find 00:24:45.225 --> 00:24:48.675 themselves in relationships with somebody who all it takes really is for that 00:24:48.675 --> 00:24:49.905 narcissist to say, well, I'm not doing it. 00:24:50.235 --> 00:24:52.995 And that person, the pathologically kind, the person who's willing to 00:24:52.995 --> 00:24:55.574 fall on the sword just for the good of the family or whatever that looks 00:24:55.574 --> 00:24:58.665 like, is gonna say, okay, well I already know how this plays out. 00:24:58.665 --> 00:24:59.415 I'll be taking a bike. 00:24:59.715 --> 00:25:02.625 Now if she comes home late and, and he's upset about that, 00:25:02.865 --> 00:25:03.854 well, I had to ride a bike. 00:25:03.854 --> 00:25:05.445 Well, okay, well I didn't realize it was so cool. 00:25:05.445 --> 00:25:06.104 Why didn't you tell me? 00:25:06.405 --> 00:25:08.774 It's one of those where there's not gonna be ownership or accountability, 00:25:08.865 --> 00:25:14.145 and anything that she is saying at this time is going to be viewed as incorrect. 00:25:14.385 --> 00:25:19.215 When he said, you can just bike it just, it so downplays what's 00:25:19.215 --> 00:25:21.554 actually being asked because it makes it sound kind of simple. 00:25:21.554 --> 00:25:23.955 Like she's the one being unreasonable for not wanting to bike 10 00:25:23.955 --> 00:25:25.245 miles with a kid in bad weather. 00:25:25.754 --> 00:25:28.425 But that is not compromise that he was looking for. 00:25:28.635 --> 00:25:32.205 Uh, that is a flat out emotional dismissal, but he disguises it 00:25:32.324 --> 00:25:34.485 as a suggestion, which is one of the fascinating things with 00:25:34.485 --> 00:25:35.655 the real narcissistic person. 00:25:36.044 --> 00:25:36.975 And I often. 00:25:37.439 --> 00:25:42.000 Try to use humor with it, but those are words that, in a sentence can 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.960 sound somewhat okay or empathetic, but it's the context that matters. 00:25:46.169 --> 00:25:48.389 This has moved well past a logistical disagreement. 00:25:48.689 --> 00:25:51.570 This has a very much deeper meaning. 00:25:51.929 --> 00:25:54.060 Your needs not negotiable. 00:25:54.330 --> 00:25:55.770 Mine are not as well. 00:25:55.800 --> 00:25:57.060 I'll be doing what I want to do. 00:25:57.389 --> 00:25:59.790 I'm gonna throw this out at you, and then you make do with 00:25:59.790 --> 00:26:00.929 whatever it is that you need to do. 00:26:01.770 --> 00:26:03.179 And here's why. 00:26:03.179 --> 00:26:06.570 This fits into this death by a thousand cuts model just so clearly to me. 00:26:07.379 --> 00:26:10.020 You could explain yourself, you could argue your point, but you 00:26:10.020 --> 00:26:11.129 already know how it's gonna go. 00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:12.240 So what do you do? 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.980 You make it work, you bike, you stretch, you sacrifice, you freeze you. 00:26:17.040 --> 00:26:21.120 You take your kid, and most likely this person, especially being 00:26:21.120 --> 00:26:24.360 a 10-year-old, most likely, she made excuses for the husband. 00:26:24.870 --> 00:26:29.910 And then I am projecting this, but I would imagine later he's not being very 00:26:29.910 --> 00:26:32.700 curious even about the appointment, but he might tell her about how amazing he 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:34.620 was as a coach with this kid at practice. 00:26:35.100 --> 00:26:39.870 So over time you stop asking, you stop expecting fairness, and then 00:26:39.870 --> 00:26:42.600 you even have to tell yourself that, okay, I guess this, that this isn't 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:44.160 the way that real relationships work. 00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:48.900 And you start to believe maybe this is what love looks like, but is not. 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:51.149 This is where it gets really difficult. 00:26:51.149 --> 00:26:56.580 I highly recommend finding the podcast that I did with my friend Kate Anthony. 00:26:56.639 --> 00:26:57.810 I'll put the link in the show notes. 00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:00.570 It's the Divorce Survival Guide is the name of her podcast. 00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:04.080 But we talk about differentiation and how to show up even in 00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:05.010 difficult relationships. 00:27:05.010 --> 00:27:08.760 So I know that so many people that I'm working with, they're waking up to their 00:27:08.760 --> 00:27:11.790 own emotional immaturity or the emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits and 00:27:11.790 --> 00:27:13.050 tendencies in their relationships. 00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:16.050 And a lot of people are in a place where they want to figure this out, 00:27:16.050 --> 00:27:18.149 they wanna work through it, they wanna stay in their relationship. 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.530 And Kate and I covered all things about differentiation, and I think we really 00:27:22.860 --> 00:27:26.550 talked about how to show up better for yourself even in difficult relationships. 00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:30.300 Not that we're saying, okay, so buckle up and stay in a unhealthy relationship. 00:27:30.689 --> 00:27:32.460 But I will say anytime that I can. 00:27:32.740 --> 00:27:36.280 It's maybe a better way to put it that you don't know what you don't know. 00:27:36.490 --> 00:27:40.600 You're waking up to this immaturity or narcissistic traits and tendencies and 00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:44.950 you don't know yet what the relationship is gonna look like, especially if 00:27:44.950 --> 00:27:46.270 you're able to show up different. 00:27:46.330 --> 00:27:50.379 And you're probably gonna go through a period where you want your spouse to maybe 00:27:50.379 --> 00:27:51.879 listen to some of these episodes as well. 00:27:51.909 --> 00:27:55.750 And you guys can both join each other with, we didn't know what we didn't know. 00:27:56.620 --> 00:27:59.919 And I, I do wanna jokingly say, and then again, what's that? 00:27:59.950 --> 00:28:03.129 It's a unicorn and on top of that is a leprechaun and a pot of gold. 00:28:03.250 --> 00:28:06.820 It isn't that, I'm not trying to be that dramatic because the couple's 00:28:06.820 --> 00:28:09.550 therapist to me does say, we don't know what we don't know, none of us do. 00:28:09.580 --> 00:28:12.940 If we're in these emotionally immature relationships, chances are our spouse is 00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.500 incredibly emotionally immature as well. 00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:17.620 So I just want you to know I see you and sometimes understanding 00:28:17.679 --> 00:28:22.480 how to show up better as yourself in a relationship is empowering. 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.110 So I'll put the link to that episode with Kate Anthony on the Divorce 00:28:26.110 --> 00:28:29.050 Survival Guide about all things differentiation in the show notes. 00:28:29.050 --> 00:28:31.480 Or you can email me and I'll send you a link back. 00:28:32.310 --> 00:28:35.910 The reason I bring up differentiation is because from a differentiation standpoint, 00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:41.280 in this scenario, this is a chance for you to recognize, okay, my needs do matter 00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:43.680 to even if nobody else validates them. 00:28:44.550 --> 00:28:46.290 Here's another one that has to do with the car. 00:28:46.530 --> 00:28:50.040 This one's more about priorities and emotional weight, emotional heaviness. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.940 A listener wrote in and said, because of where I live, I have to schedule doctor's 00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.630 appointments a full year in advance, and I had an upcoming appointment. 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.800 I'm rural and the office I use is extremely busy, but my doctor's excellent. 00:29:01.800 --> 00:29:02.670 So I plan ahead. 00:29:02.760 --> 00:29:06.390 Even up to a year, I put the appointment on my calendar and I put it on my 00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:09.180 husband's calendar knowing I will need him to watch the kids that day. 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:13.650 So the week before my appointment, his mom starts having car trouble, so 00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:15.150 he drives her to take a look at cars. 00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:16.560 Seems pretty kind of him. 00:29:17.415 --> 00:29:18.645 But there's nothing that she likes. 00:29:18.825 --> 00:29:20.595 So he keeps searching for her online. 00:29:20.595 --> 00:29:23.805 He finds one eventually we're in a bit of a, a jam financially, but he goes 00:29:23.805 --> 00:29:26.925 ahead and puts a couple of thousand dollars on hold for the car using 00:29:26.925 --> 00:29:28.545 our credit card without telling me. 00:29:29.415 --> 00:29:32.865 Then the day my appointment comes, the one that I'd scheduled a year ago, 00:29:32.865 --> 00:29:36.045 and he casually says, Hey, I'm heading out to pick up my mom's new car. 00:29:36.855 --> 00:29:40.155 And I pause and I say, so I needed the car to go to my appointment. 00:29:40.185 --> 00:29:42.555 Well, I guess I'll just have to figure out what to do with the kids. 00:29:42.764 --> 00:29:44.415 And he said, yeah, that, that would be great. 00:29:44.925 --> 00:29:45.795 And he walks out the door. 00:29:46.695 --> 00:29:51.825 Fast forward a few months later, my own car breaks down and I search all over 00:29:51.825 --> 00:29:54.825 and I find a potential replacement, but the dealership won't come down on price. 00:29:55.215 --> 00:29:59.504 And my husband is a negotiator and he is telling me, negotiate harder. 00:29:59.565 --> 00:30:01.635 You gotta go in there and negotiate harder, just like I did 00:30:01.635 --> 00:30:03.195 when I helped my mom get a car. 00:30:03.645 --> 00:30:07.155 So eventually I didn't feel like I needed to ask, but I did. 00:30:07.155 --> 00:30:09.975 I asked and I said, is there any way that you can step in 00:30:09.975 --> 00:30:11.325 and talk to the salesperson? 00:30:11.475 --> 00:30:14.205 His response, he said, Hey, if you want this car. 00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:16.860 You have to show me that you want it, you have to make that deal. 00:30:17.550 --> 00:30:21.330 Now, the kicker, the car was gonna actually be in his name from a financial 00:30:21.330 --> 00:30:23.460 standpoint as well for his mom. 00:30:23.670 --> 00:30:26.010 He used our money, he made the time and he made it happen. 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:28.620 So for me it was, Hey, good luck. 00:30:28.889 --> 00:30:30.480 Figure it out and you're on your own. 00:30:31.290 --> 00:30:34.200 This moment tells such a larger story because at first glance you 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:37.139 might think, okay, uh, he just forgot about her appointment and 00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:38.520 maybe he prioritized his mom. 00:30:38.520 --> 00:30:39.450 That's nice and adorable. 00:30:39.870 --> 00:30:42.960 But I know that these situations and somebody that's listening to this 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:46.920 podcast and writing in to tell this story about, uh, this type of cut, 00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:50.040 not about a scheduling mistake or it's not about a simple oversight. 00:30:50.100 --> 00:30:55.320 This is a pattern of prioritization where one partner's needs are constantly treated 00:30:55.320 --> 00:30:57.600 as optional, but the others are urgent. 00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:58.980 They're non-negotiable. 00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:01.860 First off, dismissal of medical needs. 00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:04.230 'cause it wasn't like she was just trying to go to brunch with 00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:05.820 her friends or go to the mall. 00:31:06.149 --> 00:31:08.160 This was medically necessary. 00:31:08.580 --> 00:31:11.399 It's an annual appointment and it is hard. 00:31:11.399 --> 00:31:13.770 I was gonna overuse the, it breaks my heart when. 00:31:14.625 --> 00:31:20.325 A spouse where she feels so out on her own that this isn't something that he's 00:31:20.355 --> 00:31:22.365 being very curious about or prioritizing. 00:31:22.845 --> 00:31:27.465 This one, required planning, driving a long time childcare. 00:31:27.885 --> 00:31:31.635 It wasn't just inconvenient for her to miss, it was essential for her to go. 00:31:31.635 --> 00:31:33.015 It could be devastating to miss. 00:31:33.465 --> 00:31:37.965 And yet when this moment arrived, he opted to help his mom buy a car instead. 00:31:38.505 --> 00:31:42.105 Even in that very moment, I think an emotionally mature person 00:31:42.105 --> 00:31:43.605 can say, oh my gosh, I forgot. 00:31:44.535 --> 00:31:48.225 Not even a, I wish you would've reminded me or blame shift, but I'm so sorry. 00:31:48.225 --> 00:31:48.675 I forgot. 00:31:49.245 --> 00:31:52.095 Yeah, I, of course I got the kids and you need to go do what you 00:31:52.095 --> 00:31:54.945 need to do and I'll make other arrangements for my mom in the car. 00:31:55.785 --> 00:31:58.605 The blind spots here that she planned a year in advance. 00:31:58.665 --> 00:32:01.965 And she even reminded him and he gave no thought to her need that day. 00:32:02.355 --> 00:32:03.555 That isn't forgetfulness. 00:32:03.555 --> 00:32:07.365 That becomes a, a devaluation of her and her needs. 00:32:07.935 --> 00:32:10.695 And you also see the double standard here because for his mom 00:32:10.995 --> 00:32:16.635 searches, drives, pays, picks her up for his wife, other, his kids. 00:32:17.265 --> 00:32:19.875 You make the deal even though the car was gonna eventually be in his 00:32:19.875 --> 00:32:21.885 name and he negotiated for a living. 00:32:22.785 --> 00:32:25.845 This is classic emotional immaturity because he probably even sees himself 00:32:25.845 --> 00:32:29.025 as the hero for helping his mom while seeing his wife's needs as 00:32:29.025 --> 00:32:31.785 extra and something that she really needs to take care of herself. 00:32:31.995 --> 00:32:34.785 And I think that's what makes this a larger cut than most. 00:32:35.205 --> 00:32:38.865 It's this silent message that says you figure it out because guess what? 00:32:38.985 --> 00:32:41.115 She always does, she will figure it out. 00:32:41.325 --> 00:32:45.555 And I find that that is something that has been dawning on me more and more over 00:32:45.555 --> 00:32:47.415 the last, I would say, several months. 00:32:47.535 --> 00:32:51.840 I. Of the things that, that I have not been even aware of myself in 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:55.530 my relationship, in my marriage of that, okay, hey, I, I don't have 00:32:55.530 --> 00:32:58.710 time for that, or I can't take care of that right now, whatever it is. 00:32:59.010 --> 00:33:01.650 And then I think, okay, well at least I was able to express myself 00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:04.830 and I go about my day knowing that, well, who is gonna take care of it? 00:33:05.100 --> 00:33:05.640 It's my wife. 00:33:05.760 --> 00:33:06.600 She's gonna take care of it. 00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:07.800 Because she always does. 00:33:08.250 --> 00:33:10.320 And I think one of the reasons why that can hurt the most is these 00:33:10.320 --> 00:33:13.470 kind of dynamics force a person into emotional self-sufficiency. 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.910 It's her husband in this situation who most likely wants more connection and is 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:23.160 curious why they aren't closer, is also creating this dynamic in the relationship 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.140 where she has to be self-sufficient. 00:33:25.590 --> 00:33:27.810 Not by choice, but it's by necessity. 00:33:27.930 --> 00:33:31.020 And over time then that I'll just handle it. 00:33:31.020 --> 00:33:35.040 Response becomes the default until one day you wake up and you realize 00:33:35.070 --> 00:33:36.390 you're not in a partnership. 00:33:36.750 --> 00:33:39.210 You're just roommates running a daycare. 00:33:39.210 --> 00:33:40.410 You're in a shared space with somebody. 00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:42.690 You keeps taking up all the emotional oxygen. 00:33:43.260 --> 00:33:45.210 Now let's jump back into this world of differentiation. 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.820 I think this is a moment where somebody can start to recognize 00:33:47.820 --> 00:33:51.690 their own inherent worth and know it's okay for me to acknowledge 00:33:51.750 --> 00:33:55.260 I, I wanna be in a relationship where there is mutual reciprocity. 00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:59.100 I would even dare I say, like, to be prioritized, my needs matter, 00:33:59.370 --> 00:34:00.600 even if you don't validate them. 00:34:01.530 --> 00:34:02.520 Okay, here's another one. 00:34:02.610 --> 00:34:06.990 A listener wrote in and said to me, my soon to be ex, had a signature move, 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:09.089 cut people down and then laugh it off. 00:34:09.150 --> 00:34:11.850 He'd say something hurtful and biting or just plain rude, and then 00:34:11.850 --> 00:34:14.759 immediately followed up with a, Hey, geez, I'm just, I'm just teasing. 00:34:14.790 --> 00:34:15.659 I'm just joking around. 00:34:16.650 --> 00:34:20.339 She said, I watched him do this over and over at friends and coworkers, 00:34:20.339 --> 00:34:24.540 and especially his family and our family, our kids, me, and what 00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:27.750 really struck me was how people would give these courtesy laughs. 00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:30.540 Like they weren't actually amused, but they just wanted to get outta 00:34:30.540 --> 00:34:32.730 the moment without making it worse. 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.339 Honestly, it blew my mind that he couldn't read the room. 00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:38.310 I don't think he realized most people didn't actually find him very funny. 00:34:38.370 --> 00:34:39.060 They found him rude. 00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:41.100 So Tony, here's my question. 00:34:41.130 --> 00:34:43.889 She said, not so much an example, but a reflection. 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.940 Why did narcissist or extremely emotionally immature people use 00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:50.850 passive aggressive humor as a weapon and then hide behind that 00:34:50.850 --> 00:34:52.259 line that we've all heard before? 00:34:52.589 --> 00:34:53.520 It was just a joke. 00:34:54.044 --> 00:34:56.984 And most likely I'm gonna end up being told that I'm too sensitive 00:34:57.074 --> 00:34:58.214 or I don't have a sense of humor. 00:34:59.084 --> 00:34:59.895 Lemme tell you why. 00:34:59.895 --> 00:35:01.004 It's just a joke. 00:35:01.095 --> 00:35:05.100 Is such a. There was a hall of fame of cuts. 00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:08.580 I think this has gotta be one of the top, and it's such a good question. 00:35:09.240 --> 00:35:14.040 It's actually one of the more common death by a thousand cuts that I hear, especially 00:35:14.070 --> 00:35:16.920 in sessions because humor is used. 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:17.730 I love humor. 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:21.540 It is one of my go-to things, but not as a way to passive 00:35:21.540 --> 00:35:22.590 aggressively and make a point. 00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:26.940 It's to try and be hilarious because these jokes are not jokes. 00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:31.230 They are veiled aggression wrapped in this plausible deniability. 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:35.730 There's a false mask of humor because I do believe that emotionally mature 00:35:35.970 --> 00:35:40.680 or narcissistic people, they lack the emotional vocabulary or the 00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:45.540 security or the humility or any of the, the awareness or the know-how 00:35:45.540 --> 00:35:46.860 to express their actual feelings. 00:35:47.190 --> 00:35:48.450 Things like frustration. 00:35:48.779 --> 00:35:50.070 Envy resentment. 00:35:50.490 --> 00:35:54.870 So they find what they deem as socially acceptable way is to express that tension 00:35:55.350 --> 00:35:59.730 usually through sarcasm or mocking, or I would just call it weaponized 00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:03.330 humor because uh, hey, if you react, you're the one with the problem, right? 00:36:03.330 --> 00:36:04.110 It's just a joke. 00:36:04.410 --> 00:36:05.310 You're being too sensitive. 00:36:05.610 --> 00:36:06.720 Can't take a few yucks. 00:36:07.259 --> 00:36:08.040 I'm just teasing. 00:36:08.550 --> 00:36:10.110 These aren't neutral statements. 00:36:10.110 --> 00:36:12.779 I mean, they're basically gaslighting phrases that subtly 00:36:12.779 --> 00:36:14.880 communicate Your pain isn't valid. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:15.810 My behavior's fine. 00:36:16.259 --> 00:36:17.880 Now I'm gonna shame you for reacting. 00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:19.710 I'm gonna see if I can get everybody else to join in as well. 00:36:20.009 --> 00:36:23.130 And I think there's a fascinating psychology behind this humor defense. 00:36:23.670 --> 00:36:27.570 Number one, you're avoiding vulnerability because teasing lets people express 00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:30.750 their real judgments or their discomfort without having to even own it. 00:36:31.290 --> 00:36:33.240 'cause if it goes over, people kind of laugh then. 00:36:33.240 --> 00:36:33.509 Okay. 00:36:33.509 --> 00:36:33.990 That was good. 00:36:34.050 --> 00:36:36.150 And then if somebody takes offense, then I was just joking. 00:36:36.705 --> 00:36:39.735 There's a, it's a, they win in that scenario. 00:36:40.065 --> 00:36:43.695 It's a defense mechanism to avoid looking emotionally exposed. 00:36:44.325 --> 00:36:47.235 It's also asserting control because I think passive aggressive humor 00:36:47.235 --> 00:36:49.395 puts people in a one-up position. 00:36:49.815 --> 00:36:52.725 'cause everybody laughs or in the scenario of fake laughs and then they get to feel 00:36:52.725 --> 00:36:53.835 like they're in control of the room. 00:36:53.835 --> 00:36:54.945 They're getting this validation. 00:36:55.035 --> 00:36:57.795 And that's what's so fascinating and why I like this one about the fake 00:36:57.795 --> 00:37:00.675 laughing because the person in their mind, they're just hearing laughter. 00:37:01.515 --> 00:37:04.635 It externalizes shame because when you don't laugh, when you 00:37:04.635 --> 00:37:07.545 call it out now you are the buzz guilt, you're the sensitive one. 00:37:07.545 --> 00:37:10.395 You're the problem that shifts the focus off of their inappropriate 00:37:10.395 --> 00:37:12.225 comments and onto your reaction. 00:37:12.615 --> 00:37:13.455 It's a blame shift. 00:37:13.485 --> 00:37:17.385 It's more like a shame shift and it goes back into this world of 00:37:17.385 --> 00:37:19.755 emotional immaturity because then all of a sudden that person feels 00:37:19.755 --> 00:37:20.865 bad that you called them out. 00:37:21.195 --> 00:37:23.805 So now they're gonna deflect that right back onto you and you 00:37:23.805 --> 00:37:25.215 will take it, you will own it. 00:37:25.245 --> 00:37:27.225 You'll apologize if they can stay in it. 00:37:27.555 --> 00:37:30.734 I like this example because of this concept of the courtesy laugh. 00:37:30.765 --> 00:37:33.884 I've been fascinated by that for a little while now, because a lot of 00:37:33.884 --> 00:37:36.105 people just smile awkwardly, move on. 00:37:36.524 --> 00:37:40.605 But over time, even the courtesy laugh becomes a survival strategy because 00:37:40.634 --> 00:37:43.125 okay, you stop reacting, you stop calling things out, and eventually you start 00:37:43.125 --> 00:37:44.714 asking yourself, am I overreacting? 00:37:44.714 --> 00:37:46.424 Or is it really that bad? 00:37:46.424 --> 00:37:48.345 And you're internally gaslighting yourself. 00:37:48.345 --> 00:37:49.785 And so there are multiple reasons. 00:37:49.785 --> 00:37:51.315 I think that the courtesy laugh comes out. 00:37:51.585 --> 00:37:53.565 One, it's like, okay, I mean, I, I don't wanna be rude. 00:37:54.015 --> 00:37:55.785 Ha, I I don't wanna be mean. 00:37:56.205 --> 00:37:58.424 And then just to get it over with. 00:37:58.484 --> 00:38:02.205 'cause if you don't laugh now, you may face the did did you hear what I said? 00:38:02.384 --> 00:38:03.254 Like, see how funny that was? 00:38:03.254 --> 00:38:04.424 Or, oh, do you not think that's funny? 00:38:04.545 --> 00:38:05.295 Did you get the joke? 00:38:05.295 --> 00:38:06.404 Do, do you understand jokes? 00:38:06.795 --> 00:38:08.384 I even have to perfect the courtesy laugh. 00:38:09.045 --> 00:38:11.205 Have you ever heard a cutting comment followed by him? 00:38:11.205 --> 00:38:13.274 Just teasing, and then you still felt hurt? 00:38:13.995 --> 00:38:16.035 I, I want you to know that does not make you too sensitive. 00:38:16.275 --> 00:38:17.505 It makes you aware. 00:38:17.535 --> 00:38:22.875 What is it about that comment that causes me to feel hurt or these feelings? 00:38:22.995 --> 00:38:24.525 There's our differentiation moment. 00:38:24.915 --> 00:38:27.315 You know, the, this differentiation work teaches us that we can still 00:38:27.315 --> 00:38:28.845 honor our own internal experience. 00:38:28.845 --> 00:38:30.645 Even when somebody else insists it's not valid. 00:38:30.975 --> 00:38:34.815 I'm gonna learn about my autonomy even in this interaction or a theoretical 00:38:34.815 --> 00:38:38.145 connection with this other person, even if they insisted it was a joke. 00:38:38.145 --> 00:38:39.165 Because here is the truth. 00:38:39.165 --> 00:38:43.335 A joke at your expense isn't very funny if you are the only one who's not 00:38:43.335 --> 00:38:47.145 laughing, and if somebody consistently jokes in ways that leave you feeling 00:38:47.145 --> 00:38:48.975 smaller or confused or humiliated. 00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:52.020 That's not, that's not a good type of humor. 00:38:52.170 --> 00:38:54.960 That's, I'm gonna go back to this em emotional erosion. 00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.490 It's one, one laugh, one smirk at a time is starting to just eat 00:38:59.490 --> 00:39:01.410 away at your whole sense of self. 00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:05.910 I had put a little bit of a call to action out a while ago when I 00:39:05.910 --> 00:39:09.450 thought I was gonna cover this and asked for some more examples of this. 00:39:09.450 --> 00:39:12.210 So here's some that I think may resonate with many of you. 00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:13.290 Oh wow. 00:39:13.319 --> 00:39:14.880 You're actually gonna wear that outside. 00:39:14.910 --> 00:39:16.140 You are brave. 00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:19.920 Now, the impact here, the person instantly feels self-conscious like, 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.509 oh, I actually thought I looked okay. 00:39:21.810 --> 00:39:23.100 Questioning their clothing choices. 00:39:23.279 --> 00:39:26.580 And they may, they may change or shrink into themselves for the rest 00:39:26.580 --> 00:39:27.750 of the day and what they're wearing. 00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:29.370 This is criticism. 00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:31.020 It is wrapped up in sarcasm. 00:39:31.140 --> 00:39:33.029 It appears playful, but it sends a message. 00:39:33.299 --> 00:39:33.990 You look so good. 00:39:34.140 --> 00:39:35.490 And I'm the one that knows. 00:39:36.105 --> 00:39:37.634 How you would look better, what you should look like. 00:39:38.085 --> 00:39:40.725 By the way, everybody's gonna notice, and now I get to also say, I warned you. 00:39:41.325 --> 00:39:44.174 The person delivering it gets the satisfaction of control, 00:39:44.234 --> 00:39:46.065 but they don't have to take any accountability for hurting you. 00:39:46.065 --> 00:39:46.964 They were just being honest. 00:39:47.805 --> 00:39:47.984 Okay. 00:39:47.984 --> 00:39:50.475 Another one that I think is so common, geez, calm down. 00:39:50.475 --> 00:39:52.665 I was just joking when I said that you're not a great cook. 00:39:53.325 --> 00:39:56.654 The listener then is left wondering, is that how they really feel? 00:39:56.805 --> 00:40:00.345 But now they also feel guilty for reacting because this is a, I almost 00:40:00.345 --> 00:40:01.754 look at like a classic one-two punch. 00:40:01.754 --> 00:40:03.915 It's a criticism followed by gaslighting. 00:40:03.944 --> 00:40:04.935 If you laugh, they win. 00:40:05.145 --> 00:40:07.035 If you defend yourself, you are too sensitive. 00:40:07.035 --> 00:40:09.285 Either way, they don't have to own what they said. 00:40:10.004 --> 00:40:13.904 One that it gets brought up often in therapy is the, you are just like your 00:40:14.714 --> 00:40:16.665 mother or father, and then, I'm kidding. 00:40:16.694 --> 00:40:17.115 I'm kidding. 00:40:17.625 --> 00:40:18.765 Unless you think you are. 00:40:19.590 --> 00:40:22.620 Deep emotional trigger activated, and now you can't even call it 00:40:22.620 --> 00:40:23.850 out without looking dramatic. 00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:27.120 Narcissists will do these baiting comments. 00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:30.180 They say just enough to sting, but they leave themselves an exit. 00:40:30.240 --> 00:40:32.460 It's this ramp of plausible deniability. 00:40:32.550 --> 00:40:34.560 They throw this comment out and then they pretend that that 00:40:34.560 --> 00:40:36.480 wasn't, I had no intention of that. 00:40:36.690 --> 00:40:39.600 I mean, do, do you not think you're kind of like your dad right there, or, I mean, 00:40:39.600 --> 00:40:44.100 if you don't, that's okay, but if they, if it hits and they go into this, oh man, am 00:40:44.100 --> 00:40:46.950 I, and so there's just not anything good. 00:40:46.950 --> 00:40:48.210 There's not a good way to. 00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:50.520 Communicate when something like that is happening. 00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:54.660 Now, if you have a solid sense of self and now we go back into this 00:40:54.660 --> 00:40:58.020 world of differentiation and you know, I'm, I know the work I've done. 00:40:58.020 --> 00:40:59.400 I'm actually not like my father. 00:40:59.850 --> 00:41:02.880 Then I can turn it back around, not in a, I turn it back around 00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:04.470 on them and I, and I showed them. 00:41:04.470 --> 00:41:06.600 But more of a, Hey, help me understand what do you mean by that? 00:41:06.720 --> 00:41:07.950 I'm curious 'cause I'm good. 00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:10.350 90% solid, 10% flexible sense of self. 00:41:10.620 --> 00:41:14.250 I'm open to to feedback, but I mean, I don't think that I am, 00:41:14.250 --> 00:41:15.240 but I would love your feedback. 00:41:15.240 --> 00:41:17.820 And then if they tell you, oh well I think that you do these things like 00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:20.760 him, oh, okay, I appreciate that period. 00:41:21.090 --> 00:41:24.720 'cause I don't, but I don't need him to know because I don't need that validation. 00:41:25.590 --> 00:41:27.240 This one was one that somebody said that you'd forget your 00:41:27.240 --> 00:41:28.590 own head if it wasn't attached. 00:41:28.890 --> 00:41:30.030 How do you even function in life? 00:41:30.270 --> 00:41:33.720 I don't even know how you get around Embarrassment, especially. 00:41:34.170 --> 00:41:37.440 If and when, and this one was set in front of others because over time this 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:38.670 starts to chip away at confidence. 00:41:39.240 --> 00:41:43.170 Might sound like a little teasing, but it is rooted in, uh, almost contempt. 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:44.220 Definitely not connection. 00:41:44.670 --> 00:41:47.340 This is the kind of joking that becomes a script where it keeps one 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:51.150 person small and the other just looks like the clever, long suffering one. 00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:53.400 I mean, man, guys, do you know all the things I have to do 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:54.420 to keep this one in order? 00:41:55.200 --> 00:41:55.950 Well, I think one more. 00:41:56.279 --> 00:41:56.790 Relax. 00:41:56.910 --> 00:41:58.650 I only said you talk too much because it's true. 00:41:58.770 --> 00:41:59.670 I'm just being honest. 00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:02.160 The person starts to silence themselves. 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.390 They doubt their own instincts. 00:42:03.390 --> 00:42:06.540 To share the phrase, I'm just being honest, is one of the most 00:42:06.540 --> 00:42:10.890 weaponized phrases used by emotionally immature, narcissistic people as a 00:42:10.890 --> 00:42:12.570 way to somewhat normalize cruelty. 00:42:12.600 --> 00:42:14.340 Hey, I'm just being, somebody needed to tell you. 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:15.510 Now, that's different. 00:42:15.510 --> 00:42:20.400 If you have a pickle on your upper lip and the Heathrow airport, hypothetically, 00:42:20.670 --> 00:42:23.580 and then somebody thinks it's a booger, and thank goodness it's a pickle. 00:42:24.270 --> 00:42:25.500 Tell me if that's the case. 00:42:25.560 --> 00:42:27.180 But I don't need you to be honest with me. 00:42:27.240 --> 00:42:28.350 If you're just being mean. 00:42:28.830 --> 00:42:32.010 Honesty without kindness is this cruelty all dressed up in a costume. 00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:35.730 And when somebody uses truth to diminish you, they're not being honest. 00:42:35.790 --> 00:42:36.570 They're being mean. 00:42:36.660 --> 00:42:37.710 They're trying to be controlling. 00:42:37.770 --> 00:42:39.330 They're putting themselves in the one up position. 00:42:40.185 --> 00:42:44.384 Each of these jokes is like a, a tiny little emotional splinter, and maybe 00:42:44.384 --> 00:42:47.445 it doesn't cause a complete meltdown in the moment, but over time, they 00:42:47.445 --> 00:42:49.605 accumulate, just like these cuts do. 00:42:49.935 --> 00:42:51.075 They confuse your reality. 00:42:51.075 --> 00:42:54.015 They make you question your reactions, and they basically 00:42:54.015 --> 00:42:57.375 train you to stop expressing your full self and to play small. 00:42:57.375 --> 00:43:00.735 So the next time that somebody says it's just a joke, ask yourself this. 00:43:01.125 --> 00:43:04.485 Did I think it was, did I feel seen or connected or uplifted, or did I 00:43:04.485 --> 00:43:06.015 feel small and confused and dismissed? 00:43:06.285 --> 00:43:10.335 Now, you are not gonna give them the aha moment or the epiphany, but if we move 00:43:10.335 --> 00:43:14.205 into full differentiation, that might be a moment where I can say, well, tell me 00:43:14.205 --> 00:43:15.225 what you thought was funny about that. 00:43:15.285 --> 00:43:15.915 I'm curious. 00:43:16.215 --> 00:43:18.585 But again, only if you feel like you are in a very good place. 00:43:18.975 --> 00:43:20.805 Jokes are supposed to build connection. 00:43:20.924 --> 00:43:23.565 They're not supposed to erode your self-worth. 00:43:24.495 --> 00:43:25.335 Lemme share a couple more. 00:43:25.965 --> 00:43:28.575 Uh, this one might sound a little bit light on the surface, but I think 00:43:28.575 --> 00:43:32.415 it's a pretty sharp example of how emotionally mature behavior just slowly 00:43:32.415 --> 00:43:33.855 chips away at somebody's confidence. 00:43:33.915 --> 00:43:37.425 And in this scenario, creativity this person wrote, she said, I had 00:43:37.425 --> 00:43:38.865 an idea I was really excited about. 00:43:38.865 --> 00:43:41.985 I was gonna take an old vintage board game, and if anybody else is thinking of 00:43:42.015 --> 00:43:45.255 Jumanji, I kind of am, but I don't think that this is where she's going with this 00:43:45.735 --> 00:43:48.435 and turn it into something completely new for our family, but use the board 00:43:48.435 --> 00:43:50.565 game as something I can build off of. 00:43:50.595 --> 00:43:53.685 She said, I'm a creative person, and this just lit up that part of me that 00:43:53.685 --> 00:43:55.095 loves building something meaningful. 00:43:55.425 --> 00:43:57.495 She said, I spent hours researching and figuring out the 00:43:57.495 --> 00:44:00.165 mechanics and brainstorming how to make it interactive and fun. 00:44:00.405 --> 00:44:01.605 I poured myself into this. 00:44:01.605 --> 00:44:04.245 A couple of weeks in the kids were asking, okay, is it ready yet? 00:44:04.245 --> 00:44:08.505 They were excited and my husband, without missing a beat, says, yeah, do you 00:44:08.505 --> 00:44:09.675 think you'll ever actually finish it? 00:44:09.675 --> 00:44:10.335 I mean, come on. 00:44:10.395 --> 00:44:12.075 You don't finish many of the things you start. 00:44:12.645 --> 00:44:13.575 Just a little jab. 00:44:13.575 --> 00:44:17.835 He said it with a smirk, but she said it landed so hard and she said, here's the 00:44:17.835 --> 00:44:22.635 part that might sound immature myself, and probably silly to a lot of people, but she 00:44:22.635 --> 00:44:24.255 said to me, it's a hundred percent real. 00:44:24.735 --> 00:44:25.935 I never finished that game. 00:44:26.235 --> 00:44:29.595 That comment stung so much that she said, I packed the whole thing away 00:44:29.595 --> 00:44:30.735 and I haven't touched it since. 00:44:31.095 --> 00:44:32.086 And that was over two years ago. 00:44:33.015 --> 00:44:35.085 She said, okay, now let's fast forward to another night. 00:44:35.445 --> 00:44:37.065 Not long ago, family game time. 00:44:37.065 --> 00:44:40.335 Again, a clue comes up that happens to tie into my favorite song 00:44:40.335 --> 00:44:41.715 at the time, and I love music. 00:44:42.134 --> 00:44:44.835 He not so much, he doesn't recognize the song. 00:44:45.134 --> 00:44:50.715 So then I sing the chorus, just one line, which is actually the title of the song, 00:44:50.835 --> 00:44:53.685 and he erupts into this maniacal laughter. 00:44:54.225 --> 00:44:56.955 And the kids and I are just sitting there confused and he's gasping 00:44:56.955 --> 00:45:00.285 for breath between laughs going, you just said the exact same 00:45:00.285 --> 00:45:01.755 thing in a totally different way. 00:45:02.205 --> 00:45:03.045 But it wasn't playful. 00:45:03.195 --> 00:45:03.945 It wasn't warm. 00:45:04.154 --> 00:45:06.375 It was this performance of, look how ridiculous she is. 00:45:06.825 --> 00:45:09.915 And again, I shrank, she said, that's the pattern. 00:45:09.915 --> 00:45:13.935 Over time, these moments tell you that your enthusiasm is cringey. 00:45:14.805 --> 00:45:16.605 Your creativity is embarrassing. 00:45:16.605 --> 00:45:19.605 Your interests are laughable, and little by little you stop showing up. 00:45:20.475 --> 00:45:24.255 This is a cut of contempt and it's disguised as humor. 00:45:24.285 --> 00:45:28.485 Maybe that's our theme today when he says, do you think 00:45:28.485 --> 00:45:30.435 you'll ever actually finish that? 00:45:30.855 --> 00:45:33.585 Is not a genuinely curious question. 00:45:34.125 --> 00:45:39.585 It's not a question of his offering support, not even a neutral question. 00:45:39.645 --> 00:45:43.635 It's a dismissal of something deeply personal to her creativity, and this is 00:45:43.635 --> 00:45:44.865 where I think his immaturity kicks in. 00:45:44.865 --> 00:45:47.385 I would imagine he's not the creative type, so then if she's creative, 00:45:47.655 --> 00:45:50.775 she must think, I'm not that all or nothing, that black or white view. 00:45:51.635 --> 00:45:55.295 But creativity, especially for people who identify as people who make things or 00:45:55.295 --> 00:45:57.305 doers, that's vulnerability right there. 00:45:57.815 --> 00:45:59.225 It requires risk to create. 00:45:59.285 --> 00:46:02.795 It requires, I still, when I'm putting out podcasts, I, it's creating 00:46:02.795 --> 00:46:04.835 things that are gonna be out there that people are gonna interact with. 00:46:05.105 --> 00:46:06.125 Some people are not very nice. 00:46:06.635 --> 00:46:09.365 It requires visibility, it requires vulnerability. 00:46:09.365 --> 00:46:12.005 And when you share that part of yourself and somebody responds with 00:46:12.010 --> 00:46:13.800 mockery and they mask it as concern. 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:15.610 That's a shaming maneuver. 00:46:15.670 --> 00:46:18.400 Now all of a sudden, she has to defend something that she doesn't 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:19.630 even really believe is true. 00:46:20.230 --> 00:46:21.759 She was lit up, she was alive. 00:46:21.759 --> 00:46:24.460 She found her values, that one comment dimmed that light. 00:46:24.520 --> 00:46:27.430 And it's not because she's too sensitive, it's because he hit something sacred 00:46:27.430 --> 00:46:31.270 that I would imagine he's done over and over again on the other game. 00:46:31.390 --> 00:46:33.070 You just said the same thing in a different way. 00:46:33.370 --> 00:46:36.310 Performative humiliation, not private, not funny. 00:46:36.430 --> 00:46:39.370 It was a moment where he was mocking and not teasing and it 00:46:39.370 --> 00:46:40.450 was done in front of the kids. 00:46:40.540 --> 00:46:43.540 The goal wasn't to connect it again, no curiosity. 00:46:43.540 --> 00:46:46.900 It was to control the emotional tone of the room by making her the punchline. 00:46:47.259 --> 00:46:49.930 And when this happens over and over again, when it happens repeatedly, 00:46:49.930 --> 00:46:51.820 you second guess your natural joy. 00:46:52.090 --> 00:46:54.100 You're a spontaneous expressions, your voice. 00:46:54.340 --> 00:46:56.710 And in this scenario, probably even her taste in music. 00:46:57.550 --> 00:47:00.940 It's so sad when you hear her make these comments like, you know, 00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:02.110 maybe my excitement is too much. 00:47:02.110 --> 00:47:03.250 Or maybe I should just tone it down. 00:47:03.370 --> 00:47:04.270 Nope, nope. 00:47:04.270 --> 00:47:06.970 Your excitement is what it is, and please do not tone it down. 00:47:07.690 --> 00:47:09.610 If we get toned him down, that would probably be a good idea. 00:47:10.830 --> 00:47:14.670 Instead of spending time leaning into her values of creativity, 00:47:14.700 --> 00:47:17.370 now she's trying to figure out, how do I avoid being laughed at? 00:47:17.819 --> 00:47:19.860 That is so not connection. 00:47:19.890 --> 00:47:21.210 That is survival. 00:47:21.690 --> 00:47:24.480 Every time somebody shrinks you in the name of a joke and then you 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:27.779 silence yourself afterward, that's not you being sensitive again. 00:47:27.779 --> 00:47:29.279 That's you responding to emotional danger. 00:47:29.279 --> 00:47:32.215 It's not you overreacting, that's your nervous system doing its job, which 00:47:32.215 --> 00:47:34.080 means that is not a healthy relationship. 00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.740 Let's do a couple more because I think this one plays into some deeper things. 00:47:38.520 --> 00:47:41.130 During our marriage, my ex would encourage me to take time for myself 00:47:41.130 --> 00:47:42.480 to go out with friends, enjoy a break. 00:47:42.569 --> 00:47:45.420 He always said he supported it, but something was always off. 00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:47.970 When I would go out, the second I'd step out, the calls would 00:47:47.970 --> 00:47:51.360 start, Hey, a quick question about bedtime, or where's the diaper bag? 00:47:51.569 --> 00:47:53.160 Or actually, how long do you think you'll be out? 00:47:53.190 --> 00:47:54.630 'cause the kids are kind of losing their minds. 00:47:55.560 --> 00:47:58.860 It always escalated until I felt guilty, like I was being selfish. 00:47:58.950 --> 00:48:00.510 Now, eventually I would cut my night short. 00:48:00.540 --> 00:48:03.720 I would come home thinking that I was being helpful, thinking that I was 00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:05.250 doing what a supportive partner does. 00:48:05.970 --> 00:48:08.400 But she said, I now see that it wasn't about support. 00:48:08.430 --> 00:48:09.390 It was about control. 00:48:09.510 --> 00:48:12.450 He didn't want me gone, not because he missed me, but it 00:48:12.450 --> 00:48:13.860 disrupted his comfort too much. 00:48:14.220 --> 00:48:18.120 He had a very short shelf life of the time that he could spend with our kids. 00:48:18.990 --> 00:48:20.790 The same thing would happen to family outings, go to the 00:48:20.790 --> 00:48:21.840 lake, the park, whatever. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.080 He would grow frustrated if I wasn't ready fast enough, if 00:48:25.080 --> 00:48:26.460 I wanted to stay for too long. 00:48:26.550 --> 00:48:29.700 Once I asked for a few minutes to finish packing snacks and clothes for the kids. 00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:31.620 We had several at the time, and he snapped. 00:48:32.145 --> 00:48:33.645 Hey, you're the one who was pregnant with him. 00:48:33.645 --> 00:48:34.695 You remember this stuff better. 00:48:34.725 --> 00:48:36.134 I don't think of him the same way you did. 00:48:36.825 --> 00:48:39.855 He used my motherhood as a justification for opting outta the planning, the 00:48:39.855 --> 00:48:41.475 preparation, and the mental load. 00:48:42.285 --> 00:48:48.075 Now we are in mediation for divorce and during mediation, the patterns continue. 00:48:48.375 --> 00:48:52.395 He told the mediator, I only deserve $10,000 if he buys me outta the 00:48:52.395 --> 00:48:53.685 house, because that's what he said. 00:48:53.685 --> 00:48:55.095 I contributed to the down payment. 00:48:55.545 --> 00:48:58.634 He left out the years of shared bills that I paid, the money that I put toward 00:48:58.634 --> 00:49:01.335 our mortgage, the health insurance I covered when he was out of work, and 00:49:01.335 --> 00:49:02.985 the fact that I made significantly less. 00:49:03.045 --> 00:49:04.845 But in his mind, none of that matters. 00:49:05.265 --> 00:49:08.295 He writes the mortgage check, so it's his house and. 00:49:08.850 --> 00:49:12.810 Another listener chimed in, and this was from a group, and they saw that first 00:49:12.810 --> 00:49:17.220 post, the one I just read, and they said, okay, the going out pattern, same. 00:49:17.310 --> 00:49:18.840 He always said, I could go out whenever I wanted. 00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:19.860 He totally supported it. 00:49:19.860 --> 00:49:22.259 But then I would get texts like, how much longer are you gonna be out? 00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:25.470 Or calls about little things that he suddenly couldn't figure out. 00:49:25.710 --> 00:49:27.360 It always ended with me cutting my night short. 00:49:27.450 --> 00:49:29.130 And I think this was an interesting one. 00:49:29.130 --> 00:49:32.850 I will protect the, I wanna say the innocent, but the immature here. 00:49:33.060 --> 00:49:36.480 And I remember a woman talking about this and her kid needing 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.230 clothing and her husband calling and saying, I dunno what to do. 00:49:40.230 --> 00:49:40.980 You need to come home. 00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:42.000 You need to take care of this. 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:43.500 And I said, what does he do for a living? 00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:47.670 And this person has a very difficult job that requires a lot of 00:49:48.060 --> 00:49:51.930 intelligence, but then he couldn't figure out how to go and look in a 00:49:51.930 --> 00:49:53.700 different room for a different outfit. 00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:55.410 Back to this story though. 00:49:56.865 --> 00:49:59.805 This woman would cut her night when this woman would cut her night short. 00:50:00.105 --> 00:50:01.965 He would then act confused about why I was upset. 00:50:02.145 --> 00:50:03.915 Why wouldn't you wanna be needed by your family? 00:50:04.515 --> 00:50:07.215 And then another person said he never remembered the kids' schedules. 00:50:07.215 --> 00:50:10.065 One time I had to travel and left everything written out for him. 00:50:10.065 --> 00:50:13.575 School pickups, lunches, emergency contacts, and I know that that's 00:50:13.575 --> 00:50:14.565 gonna resonate for people. 00:50:15.165 --> 00:50:18.465 But then she said, and he forgot, both kids, one had to sit sick in the nurse's 00:50:18.465 --> 00:50:21.315 office because he didn't recognize the school's number, so he didn't answer it. 00:50:21.435 --> 00:50:24.975 I had to call the school from out of state to get through to him after I got home. 00:50:24.975 --> 00:50:26.925 He complained, man, I didn't get to do anything I wanted. 00:50:26.925 --> 00:50:28.575 The kids just kept interrupting me all the time. 00:50:29.040 --> 00:50:30.569 Okay, let me do, let's go with one more. 00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:34.620 Let's talk about the world of emotional triangulation and the long-term 00:50:34.620 --> 00:50:36.240 damage that can cause in families. 00:50:36.779 --> 00:50:39.960 This person wrote in, my mother-in-law had a very particular kind of 00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:45.270 manipulative skill she'd cloak criticism in the language of love and concern. 00:50:45.299 --> 00:50:48.569 She would tell my children, you know, your mom just loves you so much, and when she 00:50:48.569 --> 00:50:51.930 just couldn't take care of you when you were little, we would just always step in. 00:50:52.200 --> 00:50:52.919 We tried to help. 00:50:53.250 --> 00:50:55.830 Sometimes she was just too tired or sometimes she was too sad. 00:50:56.430 --> 00:50:58.770 On the surface, it sounds supportive, empathetic even. 00:50:58.770 --> 00:51:02.069 But over time, this created a narrative for my kids that I was 00:51:02.069 --> 00:51:04.560 unstable, unreliable, emotionally weak. 00:51:05.040 --> 00:51:05.819 And here's the kicker. 00:51:05.850 --> 00:51:09.180 My mother-in-law didn't even live anywhere near us for most of their childhood. 00:51:09.180 --> 00:51:12.779 She was rarely around them, but the story she built was so compelling, 00:51:13.379 --> 00:51:14.940 so repeated, and so full of. 00:51:15.375 --> 00:51:19.845 Sweet concern that now as adults, my kids believe that she practically raised them. 00:51:20.625 --> 00:51:21.464 This one gets me. 00:51:21.525 --> 00:51:24.884 This is one of the most subtle, but I would say most devastating forms of 00:51:24.884 --> 00:51:27.795 emotional rewriting or confabulation, or creating a new narrative 00:51:28.455 --> 00:51:30.944 because it hides behind a smile. 00:51:31.004 --> 00:51:31.904 Sounds like care. 00:51:32.205 --> 00:51:35.475 It uses your name in the same sentence as words such as love, but 00:51:35.475 --> 00:51:37.004 underneath it plants this message. 00:51:37.245 --> 00:51:38.685 Hey, your mom couldn't handle you. 00:51:38.685 --> 00:51:39.555 We had to step in. 00:51:39.555 --> 00:51:40.725 She really wasn't enough. 00:51:41.145 --> 00:51:44.714 This is emotional triangulation with the narcissist or the emotionally immature. 00:51:45.060 --> 00:51:45.480 Person. 00:51:45.870 --> 00:51:48.180 It's not exactly outright slander. 00:51:48.180 --> 00:51:51.750 It's not a hundred percent name calling, but it's this type 00:51:51.750 --> 00:51:53.010 of suggestive storytelling. 00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:56.400 This confabulation this, creating a new narrative in real time, told 00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:59.790 with warmth designed to undermine your role and then elevate theirs. 00:52:00.120 --> 00:52:03.900 The bummer is it works especially on young minds who are still 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:05.760 learning how to construct reality. 00:52:05.850 --> 00:52:09.030 The kids internalize these messages, even if they don't understand them at the time. 00:52:09.330 --> 00:52:11.400 Then by the time they're old enough to question it, that 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:13.560 emotional blueprint has been laid. 00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:17.100 I would say this is a moment where you stop chasing the narrative, 00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:22.740 and one of the most unfair but most powerful things to understand is that. 00:52:23.100 --> 00:52:26.340 The narcissistic or emotionally Imma mature person is continually creating 00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:29.430 a new narrative in real time, and it's unfortunate, but as soon as you 00:52:29.430 --> 00:52:31.980 can accept that they are going to do that, then the fact that they're 00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:33.750 doing it becomes less important. 00:52:34.560 --> 00:52:37.860 When you can stop chasing that narrative, you don't have to rewrite their memories. 00:52:38.130 --> 00:52:41.130 You then use each one of these situations to anchor into your 00:52:41.130 --> 00:52:42.510 own experience, your own truth. 00:52:42.750 --> 00:52:44.880 And it might sound harsh, especially when your kids believe 00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:46.440 something that you know isn't true. 00:52:46.740 --> 00:52:50.310 But chasing the validation of your own kids, especially of your narcissistic 00:52:50.310 --> 00:52:53.550 mother-in-law, trying to get either of them to see it or understand 00:52:53.550 --> 00:52:57.990 it or validate you, it'll pull you right out of your sense of self into 00:52:57.990 --> 00:52:59.400 your emotional little kid chair. 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:03.540 Because the truth is, you know who raised your children, you know what you carried 00:53:03.540 --> 00:53:07.230 emotionally, physically, mentally, financially, you know how present you 00:53:07.230 --> 00:53:11.820 were, and no amount of softly spoken made up fiction changes that reality. 00:53:11.910 --> 00:53:14.640 Just to be clear, when somebody tells your kids a story that subtly paints 00:53:14.640 --> 00:53:18.750 you as an unstable or incapable or emotionally absent, a parent not support. 00:53:19.040 --> 00:53:22.760 That is them cultivating their own image, their image management, they're 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:26.810 running their own PR team, and it's a form of covert character assassination. 00:53:28.020 --> 00:53:29.069 So what have we learned today? 00:53:29.279 --> 00:53:33.390 We've covered a lot of ground, a wide range of examples, and some were subtle, 00:53:33.390 --> 00:53:37.350 some are more blatant, but all of them fit within this death by a thousand cuts. 00:53:37.410 --> 00:53:41.490 We had the story of a creative spark, the dream of a homemade family board 00:53:41.490 --> 00:53:43.200 game, snuffed out by a single sentence. 00:53:43.259 --> 00:53:44.730 Did you think you'll ever actually finish that? 00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:47.910 It was a comment that carried so much judgment. 00:53:48.220 --> 00:53:51.280 And so much contempt, and it was emotional sabotage that 00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:52.690 project, the passion behind it. 00:53:52.690 --> 00:53:54.640 It was shelved for years, and that's a big cut. 00:53:55.150 --> 00:53:58.090 Or the story of the woman who sang the chorus of her favorite song, only 00:53:58.090 --> 00:53:59.440 to be mocked in front of her kids. 00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:01.870 Laughter weaponized to diminish her voice. 00:54:01.870 --> 00:54:05.350 Another cut, or people were told that they could go out with friends anytime 00:54:05.350 --> 00:54:09.070 they wanted, only to be pulled back home with guilt, lace, text and phone 00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:12.310 calls and framed to support, but they was so deeply rooted in control. 00:54:12.820 --> 00:54:14.380 The house just runs better when you're here. 00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:15.100 Another cut. 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:18.610 And then this one that we just heard about, a mother-in-law who painted 00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:20.290 herself as the hero to the grandkids. 00:54:20.500 --> 00:54:22.930 It came to help, but when your mom was too tired, we're sad. 00:54:23.560 --> 00:54:27.520 This, it's an erasing of a mom's presence in childhood. 00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:30.010 It's a reframing of a reality that wasn't even hers to tell. 00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:31.210 Another cut. 00:54:31.690 --> 00:54:34.480 But remember, here's the thing about all these examples. 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:36.069 They're not just about being too sensitive. 00:54:36.069 --> 00:54:37.000 You are not too sensitive. 00:54:37.359 --> 00:54:41.830 They're about being repeatedly dismissed and unseen and unheard and unappreciated. 00:54:42.220 --> 00:54:45.520 And that slowly erodes your confidence, your sense of self. 00:54:45.549 --> 00:54:50.020 It's this reprogramming of reality and this internalized belief that you 00:54:50.020 --> 00:54:51.490 are too much or you're not enough. 00:54:51.490 --> 00:54:55.029 Or both depending on the day and depending on what the mood is of the narcissist. 00:54:55.029 --> 00:54:57.100 But take a moment. 00:54:57.549 --> 00:55:01.839 You are here, you are listening, you are learning, you're waking up. 00:55:02.049 --> 00:55:03.190 So let's talk about that. 00:55:03.700 --> 00:55:06.279 Let's talk about the waking up to the narcissistic traits and states 00:55:06.279 --> 00:55:07.660 and tendencies in your relationships. 00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:10.960 And sometimes even in ourselves, that can be very, uh, empowering. 00:55:11.740 --> 00:55:14.080 'cause this is not about villainizing others. 00:55:14.109 --> 00:55:16.839 It's about you getting a chance to now see more clearly. 00:55:17.200 --> 00:55:18.819 And it's about breaking the cycle. 00:55:18.970 --> 00:55:21.040 It's about finally being able to say, you know what? 00:55:21.040 --> 00:55:21.640 It wasn't me. 00:55:22.060 --> 00:55:23.140 It was never just me. 00:55:23.680 --> 00:55:24.970 And here's where I wanna offer. 00:55:25.335 --> 00:55:28.455 A new lens, something I've been thinking about a lot lately. 00:55:28.455 --> 00:55:29.835 It's the idea of polarity. 00:55:29.865 --> 00:55:31.815 Polarity is there are these opposite poles. 00:55:32.085 --> 00:55:35.024 You can't fully know light without having experienced darkness. 00:55:35.415 --> 00:55:39.645 You can't fully appreciate peace until you've lived in some chaos, and that 00:55:39.645 --> 00:55:44.145 joy feels profound or as profound as it does because you've sat in grief. 00:55:44.805 --> 00:55:47.835 And here's, I think the hard part that many of us wish we could 00:55:47.835 --> 00:55:48.944 just skip to the good stuff. 00:55:48.975 --> 00:55:50.895 We want the connection without the contrast. 00:55:51.345 --> 00:55:55.875 But life, if we're talking about real rich, emotionally mature life, 00:55:56.295 --> 00:55:57.495 unfortunately, doesn't work that way. 00:55:58.154 --> 00:56:02.835 You know now what manipulation feels like, and that's gonna help you 00:56:02.835 --> 00:56:05.234 recognize even greater authenticity. 00:56:05.835 --> 00:56:10.904 You have felt invisible, and I think that will allow you to feel even more seen 00:56:11.085 --> 00:56:12.375 when you're in a healthy relationship. 00:56:13.065 --> 00:56:18.495 You had to be controlled to be able to value freedom in your relationships. 00:56:19.065 --> 00:56:22.125 You were constantly misunderstood to finally desire 00:56:22.125 --> 00:56:24.254 curiosity over a correction. 00:56:24.930 --> 00:56:27.779 And I think that's the gift that is hidden in all of this. 00:56:27.779 --> 00:56:30.210 Not that what you went through was fair. 00:56:30.210 --> 00:56:33.210 It wasn't, I'm not gonna spiritually bypass your pain. 00:56:33.720 --> 00:56:37.140 You were often gaslit, you were manipulated, you were 00:56:37.140 --> 00:56:38.400 used, you were minimized. 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:43.470 But the fact that you're still here, courageous, curious, and even exhausted 00:56:43.470 --> 00:56:48.180 and even angry and you can be unsure, but still seeking, wanting to know 00:56:48.180 --> 00:56:52.710 learning, that's strength, that's actually differentiation in action. 00:56:52.740 --> 00:56:55.020 That's psychological flexibility that is rising within you. 00:56:55.259 --> 00:56:57.480 That's your authentic self knocking louder than ever. 00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.560 And, and I think, yeah, it's hard to believe sometimes that healing even 00:57:01.560 --> 00:57:05.009 is possible or that peace exists and that love can come without conditions. 00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.830 But let me tell you something that I believe in my core. 00:57:08.295 --> 00:57:11.055 The greater your exposure to this emotional chaos, especially now that 00:57:11.055 --> 00:57:14.805 you're on this side of it, the deeper your capacity is gonna be to feel true peace. 00:57:15.135 --> 00:57:18.495 You're not starting from scratch, you're rising from the ashes. 00:57:18.555 --> 00:57:21.855 And when you finally find those healthy, reciprocal, mutually curious 00:57:21.855 --> 00:57:25.425 relationships, one where you're not walking on eggshells and where you're not 00:57:25.425 --> 00:57:29.265 the emotional translator for everybody in the room, in the family, you know, 00:57:29.265 --> 00:57:32.145 where you're not managing another person's ego just to keep the peace and 00:57:32.145 --> 00:57:34.875 keep things calm, that kinda love it. 00:57:35.085 --> 00:57:37.965 It's hard to describe it as anything other than it will feel holy. 00:57:38.625 --> 00:57:40.635 So keep going, keep waking up. 00:57:41.145 --> 00:57:41.835 You're not broken. 00:57:42.045 --> 00:57:44.115 You're becoming, it's not too late. 00:57:44.295 --> 00:57:45.435 It's not too late to heal. 00:57:45.915 --> 00:57:47.595 It's not too late to find real connection. 00:57:47.955 --> 00:57:51.585 It's not too late to rewrite your own story, not the facts of what 00:57:51.585 --> 00:57:54.315 happened, but you'll be able to even change the way you relate to them. 00:57:55.035 --> 00:57:55.785 'cause you're gonna make it. 00:57:55.875 --> 00:57:58.485 And when you do, it's gonna be very, very powerful. 00:57:59.805 --> 00:58:02.595 Let me give you a mindfulness prompt as we wrap things up today. 00:58:02.595 --> 00:58:05.505 Call this one the cut and the healing. 00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:09.390 So I'd love for you to take a moment, maybe if you're not 00:58:09.390 --> 00:58:13.200 driving, but if you are by yourself, take a moment and get still. 00:58:14.670 --> 00:58:18.390 And if you have a few seconds right now, if you can and you feel 00:58:18.390 --> 00:58:23.880 safe, close your eyes and let your shoulders drop away from your ears. 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:23.970 And 00:58:26.045 --> 00:58:27.330 unc unclench your jaw. 00:58:28.860 --> 00:58:33.690 And take a slow, deep breath and go in through your nose 00:58:37.470 --> 00:58:41.790 and hold it there for just a second, and then let it out through your mouth. 00:58:42.900 --> 00:58:46.650 Now, bring to mind maybe even one of your own cuts that you've experienced. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:50.640 I want you to keep breathing in through the nose while I talk about this, 00:58:50.975 --> 00:58:57.120 and then out through the mouth, you know, maybe it was a sarcastic comment 00:58:57.300 --> 00:58:59.640 that you heard and through the nose, 00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:03.300 then out through the mouth. 00:59:03.990 --> 00:59:09.540 Or a a look that caused you to feel dismissed or a moment 00:59:09.570 --> 00:59:11.610 when your voice was silenced. 00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:14.220 Just notice it. 00:59:15.270 --> 00:59:16.290 You don't have to fix it. 00:59:17.250 --> 00:59:19.380 You're not gonna try to relive the pain of it. 00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:21.090 Just acknowledge it. 00:59:21.390 --> 00:59:27.420 That did happen, and it hurt and continue to breathe through the 00:59:27.420 --> 00:59:30.420 nose and out through the mouth. 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:37.200 And I would love for you to bring your hand just gently to your chest and then 00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:44.670 say, either out loud or in your mind, that was not fair, but I'm still here. 00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:46.590 Breathe that in 00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:50.160 and then let it out. 00:59:52.200 --> 00:59:55.710 I didn't deserve that, and I'm starting to learn who I am. 00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:57.660 Breathe that in 01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:03.240 and let that out. 01:00:04.290 --> 01:00:06.510 I can feel hurt, but I can heal. 01:00:07.410 --> 01:00:11.130 Let that land continue to breathe in through your nose 01:00:11.700 --> 01:00:12.930 and out through your mouth. 01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:16.080 You're not the cut, you are the healing. 01:00:17.550 --> 01:00:21.510 You are the one who sees it now, and that is everything. 01:00:23.700 --> 01:00:26.250 And gimme one more in through the nose 01:00:29.010 --> 01:00:29.820 and out through the mouth. 01:00:32.070 --> 01:00:36.600 When you're ready, just gently bring your attention back to the present moment. 01:00:37.590 --> 01:00:39.780 Maybe give your fingers and your toes a wiggle. 01:00:40.590 --> 01:00:42.180 Open your eyes if they were closed. 01:00:43.050 --> 01:00:46.830 Take one more breath this time just for you. 01:00:49.110 --> 01:00:51.960 Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of 01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:53.040 Waking Up to Narcissism. 01:00:53.610 --> 01:00:56.520 If this resonated with you, if you can think of somebody that might 01:00:56.520 --> 01:00:59.190 benefit from an episode like this, I hope that you'll send it their way. 01:01:00.315 --> 01:01:03.525 Feel free to reach out to me if you have questions or comments or thoughts or 01:01:03.525 --> 01:01:08.265 your own examples and, and I'll see you next time on waking up to Narcissism.