WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.131 --> 00:00:06.551 Hey everybody. 00:00:06.551 --> 00:00:09.401 Welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:09.401 --> 00:00:10.461 I'm your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:10.481 --> 00:00:12.311 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:00:12.501 --> 00:00:15.761 Host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, please , go find me there. 00:00:15.911 --> 00:00:20.501 Also on Instagram at Virtual couch and on TikTok at Virtual Couch. 00:00:21.716 --> 00:00:23.636 Doing more live question and answers. 00:00:23.636 --> 00:00:26.096 Usually it's on a Sunday night, maybe another time during the week. 00:00:26.096 --> 00:00:30.476 So look out for those and you can submit any question that you have, feedback, 00:00:30.476 --> 00:00:34.176 comments , if you're interested in working with me or having me come speak, 00:00:34.626 --> 00:00:37.176 , to your group, to your organization. 00:00:37.986 --> 00:00:40.326 I was gonna say to your kids' party, I, I don't know if that 00:00:40.326 --> 00:00:41.706 would be actually the greatest idea. 00:00:42.246 --> 00:00:45.546 . But reach out at contact@tonyoverbay.com or go to tony over bay.com, the 00:00:45.546 --> 00:00:47.556 website and sign up for my newsletter. 00:00:47.556 --> 00:00:49.096 There's , a lot of great things coming. 00:00:49.606 --> 00:00:53.656 I have not talked about this enough, I need to get the word out more, my 00:00:53.656 --> 00:00:58.636 friend, Julie Lee and I, she's the co-host of the Love A DHD podcast that we've done. 00:00:59.086 --> 00:01:02.576 She's also the author of a book called ICU., We're going on a 00:01:02.576 --> 00:01:04.886 cruise and not like together. 00:01:04.946 --> 00:01:08.446 I'm taking my wife actually and she's taking her husband, but we 00:01:08.446 --> 00:01:12.256 are doing an A DHD themed cruise. 00:01:12.646 --> 00:01:16.036 That is next January, and I cannot wait. 00:01:16.066 --> 00:01:20.326 There will be workshops and, , opportunities to, to connect and meet, 00:01:20.326 --> 00:01:22.336 and that is coming up in January. 00:01:22.336 --> 00:01:25.306 If you're interested or wanna know more details, reach out to 00:01:25.306 --> 00:01:29.386 me at contact@tonyoverbay.com or go follow me, follow Julie Lee. 00:01:29.386 --> 00:01:32.086 I'll have the links and the show notes, and you can get 00:01:32.086 --> 00:01:33.286 more information about that. 00:01:33.286 --> 00:01:33.701 , I'm excited. 00:01:33.701 --> 00:01:35.041 It's gonna be really, , really fun. 00:01:35.671 --> 00:01:40.141 And I also, I am grateful for the amount of feedback that I received from part one. 00:01:40.546 --> 00:01:44.991 Of the Emotional Immaturity podcast that I shared a little over a week ago. 00:01:45.321 --> 00:01:49.831 I've had , more questions, more comments, more feedback from that than I have on 00:01:49.831 --> 00:01:53.861 a podcast in a long time, , I really believe that that's the work to be done. 00:01:53.861 --> 00:01:57.031 We, we have an emotional immaturity epidemic and just being able 00:01:57.031 --> 00:01:58.291 to identify and understand. 00:01:58.501 --> 00:02:01.681 The root cause of our emotionally immature behaviors. 00:02:01.891 --> 00:02:04.051 And then what do we do with them as adults? 00:02:04.051 --> 00:02:08.131 Because I will maintain that narcissistic personality disorder is a small percentage 00:02:08.131 --> 00:02:11.371 of the population, although we throw it around like it's most everybody, 00:02:12.031 --> 00:02:13.831 and we are all emotionally immature. 00:02:13.831 --> 00:02:16.081 If you haven't listened to that episode, please do. 00:02:16.241 --> 00:02:18.911 I just think it's enlightening and it's just coming from a place of 00:02:19.481 --> 00:02:23.191 just to be aware is the first step toward growing, changing, becoming. 00:02:23.191 --> 00:02:24.031 So check that out. 00:02:25.211 --> 00:02:30.221 So today I have, I think it's a powerful, it's a funny, it's a wonderful 00:02:30.221 --> 00:02:33.881 conversation to share with you that I think is gonna resonate so deeply 00:02:34.211 --> 00:02:37.321 Let me step into my role as a therapist, although I am not your therapist. 00:02:37.321 --> 00:02:39.571 I'm not providing you therapy, but hypothetically speaking. 00:02:39.886 --> 00:02:42.196 Lay down on your couch unless you're driving or on a treadmill. 00:02:42.406 --> 00:02:44.746 But, uh, and go ahead and tell me about your mom. 00:02:45.196 --> 00:02:49.696 I know that's such a therapist trope, but today we're gonna talk 00:02:49.696 --> 00:02:53.716 about the connection with your mom. 00:02:54.406 --> 00:02:57.706 Did you ever find yourself constantly trying to please your mom? 00:02:57.736 --> 00:03:01.126 But it felt like no matter what you would do, it never quite seemed good enough. 00:03:01.711 --> 00:03:04.961 Or do you feel an overwhelming sense of responsibility for your 00:03:04.961 --> 00:03:06.251 mom's emotional wellbeing now? 00:03:06.251 --> 00:03:09.701 It can even feel like it's so familiar of, well, yeah. 00:03:09.701 --> 00:03:12.521 I don't want to disappoint her or I want her to be proud. 00:03:12.521 --> 00:03:15.101 I know athletes are wanting to buy their mom's houses. 00:03:15.371 --> 00:03:20.061 There's a lot to do with the feelings we have toward our mom or maybe you 00:03:20.061 --> 00:03:23.691 struggle to set boundaries without being consumed by guilt or just 00:03:23.691 --> 00:03:27.711 facing such intense pushback that you eventually give up and just think, 00:03:27.711 --> 00:03:28.761 you know what, it's not worth it. 00:03:28.761 --> 00:03:31.871 I don't wanna upset my mom, and I'm just gonna kick that can down the road. 00:03:32.511 --> 00:03:36.561 , today we're gonna talk about a book called The Good Daughter Syndrome written by a 00:03:36.561 --> 00:03:40.851 psychologist named Catherine Fabrizio, , and it was such an enjoyable conversation, 00:03:40.851 --> 00:03:43.141 but also , she knows her stuff so well. 00:03:43.441 --> 00:03:47.055 She also deals in the world of emotionally immature and narcissistic people. 00:03:47.195 --> 00:03:50.010 The title of this book is called The Good Daughter Syndrome. 00:03:51.450 --> 00:03:55.890 Now before any males in my audience tune out or stop listening, 00:03:55.890 --> 00:03:57.300 I have a confession to make. 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:00.150 I took Catherine's good daughter quiz before interviewing 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:01.590 her, and , , it was wild. 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:04.590 It turns out, and I tell her in the interview, I think I have a little bit 00:04:04.590 --> 00:04:08.130 of good daughter syndrome myself, and I'm not even a daughter because these, these 00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:09.990 patterns really aren't exclusively female. 00:04:09.990 --> 00:04:13.730 They can show up in anybody who's been in the caretaking role with a 00:04:13.730 --> 00:04:18.760 difficult parent If you are already feeling guilty because you , you're 00:04:18.760 --> 00:04:22.480 saying, my, my mom's not a narcissist., I'm definitely not saying that she is. 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:28.840 But I love the way Catherine tackles this because she's talking about if you 00:04:28.840 --> 00:04:32.310 have been, an emotional caretaker, , I call them, if you've ever been your 00:04:32.310 --> 00:04:33.780 mom's emotional support animal. 00:04:34.605 --> 00:04:37.725 If any of this sounds familiar, then you're definitely not alone because 00:04:37.725 --> 00:04:41.085 these are the hallmarks of what Catherine calls good daughter syndrome. 00:04:41.325 --> 00:04:45.915 It's this set of hidden psychological traps that keep kind, caring, 00:04:45.975 --> 00:04:47.215 empathetic, individuals. 00:04:47.705 --> 00:04:51.305 People that I often refer to as the pathologically kind locked into these 00:04:51.305 --> 00:04:56.055 painful cycles with some difficult controlling, , or even narcissistic moms. 00:04:56.317 --> 00:04:58.027 Catherine is a licensed psychotherapist. 00:04:58.027 --> 00:05:02.877 She's been doing this for over 30 years, focusing primarily on 00:05:02.907 --> 00:05:05.607 treating adult daughters that are trapped into this good daughter role. 00:05:06.157 --> 00:05:09.917 , Catherine is a clinical expert, , but she also shares her own 00:05:09.917 --> 00:05:11.477 personal story and it's powerful. 00:05:11.477 --> 00:05:16.307 Her mom was a therapist, the very mother that she is the daughter to, so she 00:05:16.307 --> 00:05:18.347 is a recovering good daughter herself. 00:05:19.082 --> 00:05:20.842 The book, , has won multiple awards. 00:05:21.112 --> 00:05:23.662 And in it, Catherine provides a roadmap for daughters. 00:05:23.662 --> 00:05:25.462 , I will maintain sons. 00:05:26.102 --> 00:05:29.282 , who feel stuck in these, complex maternal relationships 00:05:29.682 --> 00:05:32.682 so what makes Catherine's approach, I think, really, really valuable 00:05:32.682 --> 00:05:36.552 is that it goes past just labeling moms as narcissistic or borderline 00:05:36.552 --> 00:05:41.609 or difficult, she focuses on these unconscious psychological traps that. 00:05:42.044 --> 00:05:46.454 That keep kind, empathetic daughters paralyzed with guilt or unable 00:05:46.454 --> 00:05:48.374 to create boundaries to thrive. 00:05:49.094 --> 00:05:52.544 What you'll really hear in the interview today, and if you get the book, which 00:05:52.544 --> 00:05:56.034 again I can't recommend enough, so much of this is gonna feel familiar and it's 00:05:56.034 --> 00:06:00.339 gonna be a lot of light bulbs going off of, I didn't even know that that was not. 00:06:00.864 --> 00:06:04.674 A good thing it doesn't feel good, but I thought that's just the way things are. 00:06:05.214 --> 00:06:08.394 'cause during this conversation, we, we explore how to recognize if you've 00:06:08.394 --> 00:06:11.664 fallen into this good daughter role or what these specific psychological 00:06:11.664 --> 00:06:16.224 traps are , that keep you stuck in these destructive patterns that leave you 00:06:16.314 --> 00:06:21.444 feeling unseen, unheard, or oftentimes feeling like you have to prioritize 00:06:21.454 --> 00:06:26.000 your mom's emotions, which causes you to lack a true sense of self. 00:06:26.840 --> 00:06:29.960 We're gonna talk about some practical strategies for trying to set boundaries 00:06:29.960 --> 00:06:34.550 that actually stick also ways to banish the negative internalized mother 00:06:34.760 --> 00:06:36.710 that fuels the self-doubt in you. 00:06:37.280 --> 00:06:43.230 And she goes into detail on how to say no without letting guilt control everything. 00:06:43.725 --> 00:06:44.715 And just sidetrack you. 00:06:45.115 --> 00:06:47.935 What I really have appreciated the most about Catherine's work, and I've gotten to 00:06:47.935 --> 00:06:52.685 communicate with her quite a bit since the interview, is that, , she is an optimist. 00:06:52.685 --> 00:06:54.035 You'll feel her energy. 00:06:54.065 --> 00:06:55.145 , her work offers hope. 00:06:55.585 --> 00:06:59.365 You don't have to remain stuck in this disempowering dynamic forever, 00:06:59.785 --> 00:07:01.015 even if your mom never changes. 00:07:01.975 --> 00:07:03.505 You can, you can learn to break free. 00:07:03.505 --> 00:07:05.215 You can claim a life that is truly your own. 00:07:05.215 --> 00:07:10.365 And it's one where you, you will gradually replace self-doubt and , shame with 00:07:10.365 --> 00:07:12.795 self-trust and then self-acceptance. 00:07:13.275 --> 00:07:17.955 And I think especially for my waking up to narcissism listeners, this is the kind 00:07:17.955 --> 00:07:22.395 of conversation that it will give you an aha moment or two, your own aha moment. 00:07:23.085 --> 00:07:26.045 And I think that it will give these insights into how the 00:07:26.045 --> 00:07:27.755 dynamics with difficult moms. 00:07:28.130 --> 00:07:32.810 Create lasting patterns that then we project or diffuse onto our own 00:07:32.810 --> 00:07:34.430 kids or in our own relationships. 00:07:34.710 --> 00:07:40.290 , she has a step-by-step system and she provides tools and they compliment 00:07:40.290 --> 00:07:43.110 the healing journey that so many of you that if you are listening to this 00:07:43.110 --> 00:07:44.970 podcast already, I know that you're on. 00:07:45.250 --> 00:07:45.670 Whether. 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:48.700 You identify as a good daughter yourself, or if you're just trying to 00:07:48.700 --> 00:07:52.645 understand the complex dynamics , of this relationship with your mom, these 00:07:52.645 --> 00:07:56.245 maternal relationships that are affected by narcissism or extreme emotional 00:07:56.245 --> 00:07:58.985 immaturity, I think you're gonna get a lot outta this episode today. 00:07:59.475 --> 00:08:02.265 And I have already reached out to her to have her on again. 00:08:02.625 --> 00:08:07.275 So if you hear this episode today and you have questions or comments, then please 00:08:07.275 --> 00:08:11.245 reach out through contact@tonyoverbay.com and I would love , to bring those up 00:08:11.245 --> 00:08:12.445 the next time that I have Catherine on. 00:08:12.815 --> 00:08:16.235 , without any further ado, let me get into my conversation with Catherine Fabrizio, 00:08:16.535 --> 00:08:17.945 author of the Good Daughter Syndrome. 00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:24.790 And then I will start with a I'm sure I will have already did a 00:08:24.890 --> 00:08:26.850 wonderful intro, Catherine, welcome. 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:27.190 Welcome. 00:08:27.220 --> 00:08:29.200 I was gonna say welcome to the virtual couch, virtual couch 00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:31.640 listeners will hear this, but welcome to waking up to narcissism. 00:08:31.640 --> 00:08:32.320 Thanks for joining me. 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:34.440 I'm so excited to be here. 00:08:34.450 --> 00:08:39.860 I'm so excited about your work and to be able to add my two cents and discuss, 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:41.860 dive deep with some topics with you. 00:08:42.109 --> 00:08:44.912 I have to tell you, this is funny, I dunno, I like talking about the insider 00:08:44.912 --> 00:08:46.412 baseball stuff, the behind the scenes. 00:08:46.412 --> 00:08:49.712 So your, I dunno if that was your publicist that had reached out or 00:08:49.712 --> 00:08:52.302 an assistant had reached out and said, Hey, Catherine's interested. 00:08:52.752 --> 00:08:56.697 And and to be fair I get probably one or two of those a day and I don't, 00:08:57.157 --> 00:08:58.702 I don't read all of them in yours. 00:08:59.062 --> 00:08:59.152 Yeah. 00:08:59.152 --> 00:09:01.972 Hearing this, you had the word narcissism or in the, yeah. 00:09:02.437 --> 00:09:03.867 And then here's what we can talk about. 00:09:03.867 --> 00:09:04.497 So I'm in. 00:09:04.907 --> 00:09:07.937 And so then then we book it, you send the book and you wrote a handwritten note. 00:09:07.937 --> 00:09:10.427 And I was like, and then all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, this is, I was so flattered. 00:09:10.757 --> 00:09:13.387 But then it was still being set up through your, your publicist. 00:09:13.667 --> 00:09:17.627 So then I went on her Instagram and I was like, cause that book is amazing. 00:09:17.627 --> 00:09:18.597 We'll talk so much about it. 00:09:18.927 --> 00:09:20.877 I felt like, Oh my gosh, where is Catherine Ben? 00:09:20.887 --> 00:09:21.917 How do I not know her already? 00:09:22.207 --> 00:09:23.257 And so I can't lie. 00:09:23.267 --> 00:09:26.097 I was having a moment where then when I reached out to you through Instagram 00:09:26.097 --> 00:09:28.007 and you came back and said, you're actually listening to my podcast. 00:09:28.847 --> 00:09:30.037 I felt so seen Catherine. 00:09:33.677 --> 00:09:34.367 Great. 00:09:34.717 --> 00:09:35.087 Yeah, that was 00:09:35.087 --> 00:09:35.257 good. 00:09:35.467 --> 00:09:36.837 I had a similar experience. 00:09:36.857 --> 00:09:40.327 I'm like, I went and told my husband, I'm like, this guy really gets it. 00:09:40.777 --> 00:09:44.447 You know, how come I haven't come across his stuff? 00:09:44.447 --> 00:09:46.132 Um, it was funny. 00:09:46.132 --> 00:09:46.577 So this is gonna be good. 00:09:47.087 --> 00:09:48.917 Like, I dunno if I can add anything. 00:09:48.917 --> 00:09:51.572 This guy know so much, so I'll full dis disclosure. 00:09:51.962 --> 00:09:52.252 Wait. 00:09:52.307 --> 00:09:52.487 Okay. 00:09:52.487 --> 00:09:53.237 That's so nice. 00:09:53.237 --> 00:09:57.527 So I'm, and the book is The Good Daughter Syndrome and it's the, what they call it, 00:09:57.527 --> 00:10:00.017 the sub subtitle or the help for empath? 00:10:00.017 --> 00:10:00.677 Yeah, the subtitle. 00:10:00.947 --> 00:10:01.637 Subtitle, okay. 00:10:01.787 --> 00:10:02.507 Help for em. 00:10:02.607 --> 00:10:06.417 Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic Borderline or Difficult Mothers trapped 00:10:06.417 --> 00:10:07.557 in the Role of the Good Daughter. 00:10:07.647 --> 00:10:10.077 And that covers my audience. 00:10:10.127 --> 00:10:10.907 So many of them. 00:10:10.967 --> 00:10:12.737 And then I joked with Catherine that. 00:10:13.077 --> 00:10:15.757 I took her quiz, which I'll have the link in the show notes, 00:10:15.757 --> 00:10:17.197 and please everyone go take it. 00:10:17.567 --> 00:10:20.017 Because I was having a moment even going through the questions, but I told 00:10:20.017 --> 00:10:23.277 Catherine, I think I have, I think I have good daughter syndrome, you know? 00:10:23.277 --> 00:10:25.101 I know, I 00:10:25.101 --> 00:10:26.317 did struggle. 00:10:26.317 --> 00:10:31.007 I do have some men who kind of take me to task and say, Hey, I'm the good son. 00:10:31.017 --> 00:10:33.077 Why are you talking about this? 00:10:33.337 --> 00:10:33.837 Yeah. 00:10:34.302 --> 00:10:36.182 And I think it's true. 00:10:36.192 --> 00:10:41.112 There are some gender differences, however, narcissism as a child 00:10:41.362 --> 00:10:42.942 affects you and why wouldn't it? 00:10:43.492 --> 00:10:44.002 Absolutely. 00:10:44.242 --> 00:10:45.802 And so that's what I think we'll go on the road then. 00:10:45.902 --> 00:10:49.162 I'll cover the nice guy syndrome, the good daughter syndrome, 00:10:49.192 --> 00:10:50.542 we'll have a act in Vegas. 00:10:50.542 --> 00:10:52.422 I want some tigers or something like that. 00:10:53.042 --> 00:10:53.262 Okay. 00:10:53.262 --> 00:10:53.672 All right. 00:10:53.672 --> 00:10:54.372 So that's stay tuned. 00:10:54.922 --> 00:10:55.612 We'll talk more about that. 00:10:55.862 --> 00:10:59.612 So Catherine, tell me about you, who you are and what you do 00:10:59.752 --> 00:11:00.992 and how we got to where we are. 00:11:00.992 --> 00:11:02.142 And then I want to dive deep into the book. 00:11:02.907 --> 00:11:03.257 Okay. 00:11:03.907 --> 00:11:07.517 Well, I'm a psychotherapist of probably 35 years now. 00:11:07.567 --> 00:11:09.157 It sounds like a long time. 00:11:09.727 --> 00:11:15.017 I am a daughter, recovered most of the time, sometimes recovering, 00:11:15.647 --> 00:11:21.997 good daughter, and I'm a mother to grown daughters in their early 00:11:22.077 --> 00:11:25.307 thirties and I'm still learning. 00:11:26.137 --> 00:11:26.467 Okay. 00:11:27.137 --> 00:11:28.507 And they call me to task. 00:11:28.507 --> 00:11:30.317 I know you have kids that are very active. 00:11:32.432 --> 00:11:32.732 Yes, 00:11:32.732 --> 00:11:35.052 they are. 00:11:35.052 --> 00:11:38.442 They keep me straight and I have grandchildren. 00:11:38.822 --> 00:11:40.697 Well, you've also been divorce as well, right? 00:11:41.123 --> 00:11:44.850 And then remarried , and and then you've been a therapist for 35 years. 00:11:45.170 --> 00:11:49.330 The things that you, I'm trying to make this a big quote, but I know that 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:51.810 when you try to force something, it probably isn't, but you can't lead 00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:53.370 somebody where you haven't been before. 00:11:53.430 --> 00:11:57.860 And so as a as a hopefully becoming more emotionally mature, you're recovering. 00:11:58.205 --> 00:12:01.545 Emotionally immature person with narcissistic traits and tendencies with 00:12:01.595 --> 00:12:06.285 ADHD seeking validation nice guy syndrome It's a lot easier to lead someone there. 00:12:06.335 --> 00:12:07.875 I haven't had an eating disorder. 00:12:07.875 --> 00:12:11.695 I don't really have OCD I can talk about those but so I love hearing all 00:12:11.695 --> 00:12:15.775 the things that you have It's been through in your life that you can help. 00:12:16.205 --> 00:12:19.455 Do you want me to talk about how I first came upon the good daughter syndrome? 00:12:19.465 --> 00:12:20.165 Please do. 00:12:20.225 --> 00:12:20.575 Yeah. 00:12:20.575 --> 00:12:21.015 Tell us. 00:12:21.495 --> 00:12:21.905 Okay. 00:12:22.085 --> 00:12:26.105 So we're going to time travel to about 35 years ago. 00:12:26.455 --> 00:12:31.135 I had married a very nice man, had two beautiful daughters, had just 00:12:31.135 --> 00:12:37.325 graduated from graduate school and went into practice with my mother. 00:12:38.105 --> 00:12:38.465 Oh. 00:12:38.465 --> 00:12:38.535 Wow. 00:12:38.535 --> 00:12:38.550 That's incredible. 00:12:39.150 --> 00:12:39.550 Really? 00:12:39.560 --> 00:12:44.560 Who was a psychologist and a debate champion and a minister's wife. 00:12:45.040 --> 00:12:45.640 Oh, man. 00:12:45.640 --> 00:12:45.980 Okay. 00:12:46.010 --> 00:12:47.320 Catherine, go sit on your couch. 00:12:47.370 --> 00:12:48.700 Well, yeah, I'll, take over from here. 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:50.100 Okay. 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:53.760 So, okay, not 00:12:53.780 --> 00:12:58.150 I didn't know what I thought, but in a nanosecond, I could 00:12:58.150 --> 00:12:59.830 tell you what she thought. 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.990 And if she was cool with me, she was okay. 00:13:04.040 --> 00:13:04.770 She was okay. 00:13:04.940 --> 00:13:09.020 And if she was okay with me, she was very smart. 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:10.790 And tell me what to do. 00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:16.100 And I did it and weighed in on every decision, including where 00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:20.840 I bought a house, how I parented my then very young children. 00:13:21.140 --> 00:13:25.030 There were 3 people in my marriage, my husband and my mother. 00:13:25.410 --> 00:13:27.680 And I can tell you which 1 got the most say. 00:13:28.915 --> 00:13:30.095 Did it just seem normal, Catherine? 00:13:30.095 --> 00:13:31.645 Was that the, that was the familiar? 00:13:31.935 --> 00:13:33.325 It seemed perfectly normal. 00:13:33.735 --> 00:13:37.095 Anybody who looked at us would say, isn't that a beautiful thing? 00:13:37.105 --> 00:13:39.215 You're a therapist, just like your mom. 00:13:39.825 --> 00:13:42.305 And we look like two peas in a pod. 00:13:42.865 --> 00:13:45.135 However, one pea was always in charge. 00:13:45.507 --> 00:13:47.187 What was that like for your husband at the time? 00:13:48.497 --> 00:13:51.557 Well, he kind of grew up in a matriarchy. 00:13:51.877 --> 00:13:58.367 And so he really kind of deferred to her, which not blaming him, but it 00:13:58.367 --> 00:14:03.397 was just part of as family systems do and intergenerational stuff does. 00:14:03.807 --> 00:14:05.447 It just happened that way. 00:14:05.957 --> 00:14:10.537 . So there wasn't a lot of friction and initially, but 00:14:10.547 --> 00:14:12.317 this depression got my attention. 00:14:13.117 --> 00:14:15.457 So I got into psychotherapy. 00:14:15.567 --> 00:14:17.287 I got in touch with that. 00:14:17.317 --> 00:14:19.677 I wasn't becoming my own person. 00:14:19.677 --> 00:14:21.287 I wasn't becoming my own woman. 00:14:21.557 --> 00:14:23.797 And this had roots in childhood. 00:14:24.467 --> 00:14:25.237 Good daughter. 00:14:25.287 --> 00:14:28.980 I didn't call it that at the time, so I walked in our office, 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:30.170 I'll never forget the day. 00:14:30.585 --> 00:14:36.065 With my heart and my throat, and I said in kind of a disembodied 00:14:36.075 --> 00:14:39.015 voice, Mom, I need to leave home. 00:14:39.205 --> 00:14:40.645 I'm leaving the practice. 00:14:42.455 --> 00:14:46.635 And I knew it would break her heart because that had been her dream. 00:14:48.032 --> 00:14:51.147 But I also knew staying would break me. 00:14:52.607 --> 00:14:55.407 So it was one of those, and you talk about being at the free 00:14:55.407 --> 00:15:00.187 throw line, you're all poised in, you rehearsed it and everything. 00:15:00.497 --> 00:15:03.697 But when you do it it was like this voice that I had to rehearse that I 00:15:03.697 --> 00:15:05.647 just heard the kind of disembodied. 00:15:05.807 --> 00:15:08.077 I didn't know that was a trauma response at the time. 00:15:08.667 --> 00:15:09.027 Okay. 00:15:09.227 --> 00:15:09.687 Yeah. 00:15:10.097 --> 00:15:13.497 But that started us off on a trajectory. 00:15:13.547 --> 00:15:17.707 That ended, I was holding her hand when she took her last breath throughout 00:15:17.707 --> 00:15:20.907 the rest of my adult life and her life. 00:15:21.807 --> 00:15:27.007 And it had to be renegotiated again and again, you know, I'd love to say 00:15:27.007 --> 00:15:31.797 that, that, that just set the stage and the clouds parted and she realized 00:15:31.837 --> 00:15:34.047 everything and it was smooth sailing. 00:15:34.297 --> 00:15:38.027 It wasn't, but she was a perfect mother for me because she taught 00:15:38.027 --> 00:15:43.422 me by renegotiating these things and coming to terms and getting 00:15:43.432 --> 00:15:44.822 back in touch with myself. 00:15:45.452 --> 00:15:47.782 What was not worth it? 00:15:48.872 --> 00:15:55.042 Like maybe we'd go back and forth in emails, like tons of them over a weekend, 00:15:55.582 --> 00:15:59.182 trying to explain, be seen, be heard. 00:16:00.552 --> 00:16:03.782 And were you aware as you were doing that, , would you recognize that I'm 00:16:03.782 --> 00:16:05.912 not ever going to feel seen or heard? 00:16:05.912 --> 00:16:09.902 Or were there times where you felt like that you, you did make some ground there? 00:16:10.052 --> 00:16:10.122 I 00:16:10.122 --> 00:16:11.612 was hope springs eternal 00:16:12.222 --> 00:16:12.512 and 00:16:12.572 --> 00:16:13.522 narcissism. 00:16:13.552 --> 00:16:14.972 See this is 35 years ago. 00:16:15.002 --> 00:16:16.762 Nobody had ever heard the word boundary. 00:16:16.762 --> 00:16:19.392 I just was, I just felt like I was being bad. 00:16:19.512 --> 00:16:22.042 I was being, but I knew I had to do it. 00:16:22.402 --> 00:16:24.562 So I had to reinvent. 00:16:24.952 --> 00:16:29.712 All this stuff for myself and nowadays, I feel like in the past 5 00:16:29.722 --> 00:16:31.922 years, all these word gaslighting. 00:16:32.032 --> 00:16:32.302 Yeah. 00:16:32.462 --> 00:16:33.482 Zero sum game. 00:16:33.512 --> 00:16:34.972 I was listening to on your podcast. 00:16:34.972 --> 00:16:35.512 I was like, wait a minute. 00:16:35.582 --> 00:16:36.332 I thought of that. 00:16:36.332 --> 00:16:37.522 I wrote about that in my book. 00:16:37.812 --> 00:16:39.182 The new truth is truth. 00:16:39.182 --> 00:16:40.022 Whatever emerges. 00:16:40.022 --> 00:16:42.402 Yeah. 00:16:43.032 --> 00:16:43.652 It's wild. 00:16:43.712 --> 00:16:44.122 Isn't it? 00:16:44.582 --> 00:16:44.852 It is. 00:16:45.112 --> 00:16:48.042 I'll hear somebody, I'll hear somebody say, we don't know what we don't know. 00:16:48.042 --> 00:16:50.882 And all of a sudden I'll think, wait, they must listen to my podcast and I'll 00:16:50.882 --> 00:16:52.092 think, well, that's pretty narcissistic. 00:16:52.092 --> 00:16:53.922 That's a pretty generic saying. 00:16:54.337 --> 00:16:57.047 so no, it was, I would exhaust myself. 00:16:57.177 --> 00:17:02.017 I mean, she was a very smart woman and I would think logic and we were 00:17:02.027 --> 00:17:04.067 both psychologists for God's sake. 00:17:04.627 --> 00:17:05.097 And I would. 00:17:06.097 --> 00:17:06.747 Mom. 00:17:07.357 --> 00:17:11.227 She just, she did not have it in her to give it to me. 00:17:11.577 --> 00:17:15.467 I would say 80 percent of the time there would be these glimmers. 00:17:15.517 --> 00:17:20.067 And when she was feeling okay, as we know about, human nature, 00:17:20.207 --> 00:17:21.727 she didn't need the defenses. 00:17:21.877 --> 00:17:24.237 And she would say, you know, you're right. 00:17:24.287 --> 00:17:25.947 You had a better mother than I did. 00:17:27.902 --> 00:17:32.332 And I would ever think, Oh, she gets it, but then life would happen and 00:17:32.332 --> 00:17:35.732 stress would happen and she would need those narcissistic defenses. 00:17:37.172 --> 00:17:39.762 Catherine, , I went through a period, I think this pendulum swing of where 00:17:40.122 --> 00:17:43.082 every single thing that the narcissist says, there's an angle to it. 00:17:43.122 --> 00:17:44.932 It's coming from this false self. 00:17:44.932 --> 00:17:48.972 But then there was one client in particular who she was expressing a 00:17:48.972 --> 00:17:50.222 moment with her narcissistic husband. 00:17:50.222 --> 00:17:54.327 And she said, But in that moment, I swear he got it for a moment and 00:17:54.337 --> 00:17:57.337 I thought about that for so long and then I came back and I even said, 00:17:57.797 --> 00:18:01.487 okay, I will give you that he may have got it for a moment, but then that 00:18:01.487 --> 00:18:04.857 felt so uncomfortable that then it's like, okay, no, you could be right. 00:18:05.117 --> 00:18:06.147 And then give it pause. 00:18:06.847 --> 00:18:07.127 Yeah. 00:18:07.367 --> 00:18:10.327 But if you wouldn't have said this, then I wouldn't have had to. 00:18:10.347 --> 00:18:11.707 And then they can breathe. 00:18:12.037 --> 00:18:16.887 But do they, do you think they get it for a moment or are you on that, No, 00:18:16.897 --> 00:18:17.797 it's like whatever they need to do, 00:18:17.810 --> 00:18:19.190 that's a really good question. 00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:21.370 And I said, the truth is in the nuances. 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:25.950 And as I feel myself, my narcissism come forth with my kids. 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.160 And then when I go home and get settled with my husband, have some 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:35.860 reflective time, so I know for myself that there's some fluctuation. 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:39.910 Also my mother was an analysis for 10 years. 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:45.920 There was that, but nine times out of 10, now I'm going back on the 00:18:47.230 --> 00:18:47.540 90%, 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.480 I really think they can't sustain it. 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:51.460 You can't count on them to sustain it. 00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:52.750 Would you agree with that? 00:18:52.820 --> 00:18:54.130 I do so much. 00:18:54.380 --> 00:18:55.090 And I do. 00:18:55.120 --> 00:18:57.980 And because these concepts of they said, I will never do that. 00:18:58.080 --> 00:19:01.430 I will, except for when I do, but then there's a reason why, or, it's a, 00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:03.340 it's whatever happens in that moment. 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.490 . And then that's I think where the gaslighting is so powerful because then 00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:08.100 in that moment it makes sense for them. 00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:11.690 So then therefore you actually were wrong and that isn't what I said because 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:12.630 it couldn't have been what I said. 00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:14.410 And, uh, and then that gets exhausting. 00:19:15.020 --> 00:19:15.970 Yeah, it really is. 00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:16.420 Okay. 00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.740 Can I quote you in your book and we can kind of dive in there a little bit too. 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:22.180 And I want to hear all about how you got the good daughter syndrome. 00:19:22.180 --> 00:19:24.480 But you said something that I thought was so perfect , you carry this 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:26.840 false belief in your adult life where you think you're selfish. 00:19:27.125 --> 00:19:29.205 When you attend to your own needs instead of mom's. 00:19:29.585 --> 00:19:31.945 And I wonder at times when people are just trying to be heard. 00:19:32.465 --> 00:19:34.302 Is that a version of I want to be heard. 00:19:34.302 --> 00:19:35.182 I need to be heard. 00:19:35.632 --> 00:19:39.332 But then at some point, if you are not, then does it feel selfish 00:19:39.332 --> 00:19:43.442 it's, I think it's very disconcerting when you have a mom who gets you 00:19:43.442 --> 00:19:45.812 some of the time and you want to be. 00:19:46.137 --> 00:19:49.877 And then this is a gender thing, but you want to be in alliance with that person. 00:19:50.527 --> 00:19:53.947 Well, the person that pulled you out of , oncoming traffic, the person 00:19:53.947 --> 00:19:56.647 that, kept your hand off the hot stove. 00:19:56.957 --> 00:20:00.813 . And so I know you know this, but and so I think it's just, it's 00:20:01.083 --> 00:20:02.973 even more than guilt inducing. 00:20:02.983 --> 00:20:07.753 It's unsettling because it kind of, on everything. 00:20:08.053 --> 00:20:11.873 So wait a minute, what can, with a parent particularly and a parent 00:20:11.873 --> 00:20:17.499 who's cared for you adequately in many ways, know, trying to reconcile that 00:20:17.829 --> 00:20:20.409 and was doing the best they could. 00:20:20.719 --> 00:20:25.809 , even if that wasn't good enough, thank you, Winnicott, don't need to be perfect, 00:20:26.589 --> 00:20:32.599 but I do think for the good daughter, you feel selfish when you differentiate, 00:20:33.149 --> 00:20:38.169 which is such an eye opener, and I think can help women struggling. 00:20:38.739 --> 00:20:44.069 That there's, there's this force, this natural force to bond and to connect, 00:20:44.619 --> 00:20:50.389 but there's also a force biologically in the universe to become your own 00:20:50.389 --> 00:20:54.129 person, to claim your life for your own. 00:20:54.479 --> 00:20:58.099 And you're not bad for doing so, but sometimes you're going to feel 00:20:58.099 --> 00:20:59.529 like you're betraying your mother. 00:20:59.999 --> 00:21:03.635 . I love what you're saying there too, because I have been so fascinated by the 00:21:03.635 --> 00:21:07.258 concepts of differentiation, maybe the last year or two, and and then realizing 00:21:07.258 --> 00:21:12.606 then that If I want my kid to do a certain thing or I think they would be good 00:21:12.606 --> 00:21:18.196 at, or I don't want them to feel like that's a lot of me stuff and, but yeah. 00:21:18.446 --> 00:21:22.016 But I can think I'm doing it because I want to be a good dad or I want them 00:21:22.016 --> 00:21:24.866 to know I care still all me things. 00:21:24.986 --> 00:21:29.066 And if they're, like you say, trying to find this autonomy and I'm the one that's 00:21:29.666 --> 00:21:34.246 keeping them needed, you know, I need them to make me feel like I'm a good person. 00:21:35.456 --> 00:21:37.096 That's really selfish of me as a parent. 00:21:38.246 --> 00:21:40.046 It's so slippery and tricky. 00:21:40.046 --> 00:21:40.516 Isn't it? 00:21:41.076 --> 00:21:42.656 Especially when you're a therapist. 00:21:42.666 --> 00:21:43.316 Oh man. 00:21:43.496 --> 00:21:43.766 Yeah. 00:21:43.766 --> 00:21:45.456 It's supposed to be good at this, but 00:21:45.456 --> 00:21:51.046 then you're like, this is my, is this my ego or is this 00:21:51.596 --> 00:21:54.526 really an altruistic parenting? 00:21:54.576 --> 00:21:56.046 And it's, I think it's hard. 00:21:56.746 --> 00:22:00.056 I think we have to inquire I have a daughter who went through a bad breakup. 00:22:00.236 --> 00:22:01.686 I've got all kinds of theories. 00:22:01.846 --> 00:22:05.336 I'm like, if you want to take him apart with knives, I can do that. 00:22:06.346 --> 00:22:07.756 I would love to do that with you. 00:22:08.716 --> 00:22:10.616 She wasn't ready to do that yet. 00:22:10.666 --> 00:22:15.406 And I was like, Hmm, this is so hard, but you know, saying, okay, 00:22:15.406 --> 00:22:17.526 what would feel supportive to you? 00:22:18.986 --> 00:22:19.556 That is hard. 00:22:19.726 --> 00:22:21.076 . Cause I'm so working on this, Catherine. 00:22:21.076 --> 00:22:23.196 If somebody doesn't come to me with curiosity. 00:22:23.636 --> 00:22:25.946 I still want to let them know what I think. 00:22:26.576 --> 00:22:27.546 I love that. 00:22:28.086 --> 00:22:28.536 Yeah. 00:22:28.796 --> 00:22:30.376 But then is that me just wanting validation? 00:22:30.586 --> 00:22:31.216 I think it is. 00:22:31.486 --> 00:22:32.836 I want them to know I know what I'm talking about. 00:22:33.152 --> 00:22:35.012 . But at least we can question it, right? 00:22:35.512 --> 00:22:35.812 Yeah. 00:22:35.822 --> 00:22:36.722 Well, right now. 00:22:36.722 --> 00:22:37.152 Talk about 00:22:37.152 --> 00:22:38.652 Yeah, what led to the book? 00:22:38.652 --> 00:22:43.012 And I, cause I can only imagine as a therapist of 20 years, all the 00:22:43.022 --> 00:22:45.092 things that I can't wait to get to 30. 00:22:45.397 --> 00:22:48.267 Because all the things I didn't know that I didn't know at 10, and then I 00:22:48.267 --> 00:22:52.307 learned at 15, and now learning now, and I'm excited now for the things 00:22:52.307 --> 00:22:55.677 that I don't know, but also, do you agree where things just start to make 00:22:55.677 --> 00:22:57.597 sense, or they you see all the patterns, 00:22:57.647 --> 00:23:00.277 yeah, yes, I love your word, patterns. 00:23:00.327 --> 00:23:05.677 I would say, yes, every year of life brings on, New insight, and the more 00:23:05.677 --> 00:23:10.437 curious I am, and the more I try and practice humility, not have the 00:23:10.437 --> 00:23:16.027 answers, wait for my clients to tell me their, people are so conflicted 00:23:17.187 --> 00:23:20.627 that it's not just one problem, but they're anyway, they're conflicted. 00:23:21.207 --> 00:23:25.847 To let that kind of flesh out, come to the surface for me, so I had my own 00:23:25.847 --> 00:23:28.197 experience with my own particular mother. 00:23:28.907 --> 00:23:31.647 And then again, this was a while back. 00:23:31.717 --> 00:23:37.687 I had women, I see just women come in who maybe they were in a 00:23:37.687 --> 00:23:42.987 narcissistic relationship with a partner and would dig a little further. 00:23:42.987 --> 00:23:44.927 And usually they would have a template. 00:23:45.437 --> 00:23:51.007 Of a parent, some women would come in and they would have gone to a therapist, 00:23:51.007 --> 00:23:53.917 maybe in the early twenties, the therapist said, your mother's a narcissist. 00:23:53.917 --> 00:23:55.757 And they said, so I quit that therapist. 00:23:56.307 --> 00:24:01.027 That's not very nice of her or the other side, or she told me, 00:24:01.027 --> 00:24:03.317 you know, you only have 1 mother, you need to honor your mother. 00:24:03.667 --> 00:24:04.307 And so. 00:24:04.842 --> 00:24:06.492 You need to get yourself straight. 00:24:06.502 --> 00:24:09.652 So I saw variations on the theme. 00:24:10.042 --> 00:24:15.622 I also saw sociopathic mothers who had daughters who would come 00:24:15.622 --> 00:24:17.522 see me and that wasn't my mother. 00:24:17.902 --> 00:24:20.962 I don't think I know enough to speak to the That concept of 00:24:21.506 --> 00:24:22.476 sociopathy what's that look like? 00:24:23.496 --> 00:24:27.516 Well, I never forget this one client who's, so her mother was 00:24:27.516 --> 00:24:31.486 in AA and still drinking, picking up chips and still drinking. 00:24:31.996 --> 00:24:33.796 She would, she's just an odd thing. 00:24:33.796 --> 00:24:35.036 She would break in line. 00:24:36.166 --> 00:24:38.856 She wasn't handicapped and she would park in handicap. 00:24:41.046 --> 00:24:45.706 And, so, of course, in a diagnosis we use persistent and pervasive. 00:24:46.011 --> 00:24:50.691 . So in helping daughters assess, is mom likely to change? 00:24:51.351 --> 00:24:52.711 That's kind of a guideline. 00:24:52.711 --> 00:24:58.161 Does she break rules, or regard herself as above it all in all situations? 00:24:58.201 --> 00:25:01.491 Or is it just in this one relationship? 00:25:01.921 --> 00:25:03.041 , has she always been there? 00:25:03.051 --> 00:25:05.271 She been this way for a very long time. 00:25:05.821 --> 00:25:10.011 So chances are as we know, like defenses are very hard to change and 00:25:10.011 --> 00:25:14.251 the more rigid they are and you can buy a questioning with your, with 00:25:14.251 --> 00:25:21.041 your client, you can assess that and then prepare them To not hold out hope 00:25:21.947 --> 00:25:23.547 the person's going to change. 00:25:23.597 --> 00:25:25.637 I love the, watching your energy shift there, Catherine, because 00:25:25.637 --> 00:25:28.287 it is interesting because you and I both know that, but the 00:25:28.417 --> 00:25:30.207 client has to get to that point. 00:25:30.567 --> 00:25:35.587 And I do think sometimes it's, it does it almost, it breaks my heart to think when 00:25:35.587 --> 00:25:38.987 you have a new person come in and they're first of all saying, okay, is it me? 00:25:39.007 --> 00:25:39.727 What can I do? 00:25:39.997 --> 00:25:42.327 Because if I can make it about me, then I can fix it. 00:25:42.427 --> 00:25:46.301 But that's a if they're trying to fix the things that mom's telling them 00:25:46.301 --> 00:25:50.671 to go fix because that'll do it for some reason, but mom's just projecting 00:25:50.671 --> 00:25:54.491 and diffusing discomfort and anxiety and you name it, wanting validation. 00:25:54.821 --> 00:25:57.698 And so sometimes I just think , okay, , how many times are you 00:25:57.698 --> 00:26:00.448 going to go through this rule out of, no, I think I get it now. 00:26:00.448 --> 00:26:03.398 I think she's, I think I can just explain it or she'll understand now. 00:26:03.398 --> 00:26:04.778 And you and I know that. 00:26:05.758 --> 00:26:07.378 That's that's adorable to think that. 00:26:08.628 --> 00:26:15.934 And sometimes I'll say, why don't you set very small boundary, very small and 00:26:15.934 --> 00:26:21.604 whatever, differs for a person and they'll like, do you want to maybe just spend 00:26:21.644 --> 00:26:26.654 one night a week with mom or one hour or something even, so it doesn't have to 00:26:26.654 --> 00:26:31.464 be, you know, The change that I wish they would make, but set one small boundary 00:26:32.084 --> 00:26:37.824 and prepare for pushback because the pushback that you get is going to be data. 00:26:38.604 --> 00:26:38.994 Yes. 00:26:39.014 --> 00:26:39.484 I love that. 00:26:40.094 --> 00:26:40.404 Yeah. 00:26:40.444 --> 00:26:44.924 Like reframe that and have, have your, whatever your support group is, your 00:26:44.924 --> 00:26:48.684 therapist, maybe your partner, your girlfriends, have them at the ready. 00:26:48.784 --> 00:26:49.934 Expect the pushback. 00:26:49.954 --> 00:26:54.744 Do not expect this to go well, but how, whatever she does, because she may. 00:26:55.209 --> 00:26:59.669 Not like it at first people don't like to be called out and then she may come back 00:26:59.669 --> 00:27:03.289 around in a couple of days Well, then, you know, you got something to work with. 00:27:03.829 --> 00:27:05.239 . I'm just a horrible mother. 00:27:05.409 --> 00:27:07.659 What have I ever done to deserve this? 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.593 Well, just tell me all the things I'm doing Um, or threatened, to harm 00:27:11.593 --> 00:27:16.183 themselves or call everybody in the family and then all the flying monkeys 00:27:16.183 --> 00:27:19.793 come in and call you, but you're going to get, so don't what choose the hill 00:27:19.793 --> 00:27:24.233 you're going to die on, but set that small boundary and use that data. 00:27:25.093 --> 00:27:26.353 Cause it tells you something. 00:27:26.943 --> 00:27:27.453 It does. 00:27:27.493 --> 00:27:31.033 , in your book, you talk about these specific traps of good daughter syndrome. 00:27:31.553 --> 00:27:34.583 And I wonder, is this a good segue into what those traps are? 00:27:34.583 --> 00:27:34.793 Yeah. 00:27:34.793 --> 00:27:34.803 Yeah. 00:27:34.803 --> 00:27:34.813 Yeah. 00:27:37.510 --> 00:27:40.480 So the first one, probably the most prevalent one, I call 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.120 the never good enough trap. 00:27:42.223 --> 00:27:44.583 , and this is particularly for narcissistic moms. 00:27:44.793 --> 00:27:50.843 So the mom who needs the relevance, the feelings of superiority to defeat you 00:27:50.843 --> 00:27:53.843 actually . Is going to move the goalpost. 00:27:53.853 --> 00:27:54.783 You know this. 00:27:54.883 --> 00:27:57.753 She's and you're going if you're the good daughter, you want her 00:27:57.763 --> 00:27:59.423 approval and her permission. 00:27:59.673 --> 00:28:01.663 And so you're going to try and try and try. 00:28:01.683 --> 00:28:03.743 You never quite make it. 00:28:04.238 --> 00:28:04.538 Right? 00:28:04.538 --> 00:28:04.598 Yeah. 00:28:04.838 --> 00:28:09.828 Because mom can't achieve her feelings of superiority if she's 00:28:09.828 --> 00:28:11.388 like, yeah, okay, you did it. 00:28:11.508 --> 00:28:12.288 Um, , right? 00:28:12.423 --> 00:28:13.731 Then I'm no longer the value. 00:28:13.911 --> 00:28:15.526 . Then I , I will not be necessary. 00:28:15.526 --> 00:28:16.226 . So there'll always be something. 00:28:16.336 --> 00:28:16.626 I'll 00:28:16.626 --> 00:28:17.266 lose my relevance. 00:28:17.801 --> 00:28:21.411 , and this can and tip in, again, as you know, probably people can 00:28:21.411 --> 00:28:24.181 develop perfectionistic tendencies. 00:28:24.771 --> 00:28:28.651 Women in particular can develop eating disorders or cutting. 00:28:29.171 --> 00:28:30.531 Call it acting in. 00:28:31.161 --> 00:28:32.011 Oh, I like that. 00:28:32.361 --> 00:28:37.131 . If they're more of the empathetic, sensitive type who really want to 00:28:37.141 --> 00:28:40.071 be good They're probably not the ones that are going to act out. 00:28:40.471 --> 00:28:45.381 Now the second trap, I call it the guilt trap, and that comes 00:28:45.381 --> 00:28:50.021 from feeling responsible for your mother's emotional well being. 00:28:50.424 --> 00:28:55.284 So you know, we are born to this one caregiver, and biologically, 00:28:55.384 --> 00:28:59.254 we learn to love the one that we're given, because that's how we survive. 00:28:59.264 --> 00:29:00.494 That's how we get fed. 00:29:01.024 --> 00:29:01.614 Safe. 00:29:02.114 --> 00:29:05.094 . And so over time and throughout development, we do 00:29:05.104 --> 00:29:06.594 more of the emotional work. 00:29:07.764 --> 00:29:11.324 So mom's regulating through us rather than the other way around. 00:29:11.704 --> 00:29:14.634 . Do you run into this, where somebody is going through a divorce and then they say, 00:29:14.634 --> 00:29:15.954 we want to do what's best for the kids. 00:29:16.374 --> 00:29:18.841 And I just wrote this document about what that looks like 00:29:18.841 --> 00:29:20.511 in real life where the adult. 00:29:21.706 --> 00:29:24.316 emotional and then they say, well, what am I supposed to do? 00:29:24.556 --> 00:29:28.646 I need to let my kids to see that emotions are okay, but it's right. 00:29:28.916 --> 00:29:32.346 I've been, your reaction says it all because , Oh no, that is your. 00:29:32.756 --> 00:29:34.356 You're wanting them to regulate your emotions. 00:29:34.396 --> 00:29:37.236 , you want them to be your emotional support animal and to tell you 00:29:37.236 --> 00:29:38.406 it's going to be okay, mom. 00:29:38.886 --> 00:29:40.906 And that's very 00:29:40.926 --> 00:29:42.126 survival depends on it. 00:29:42.466 --> 00:29:46.726 And they are by definition, more emotionally immature and you should be the 00:29:46.756 --> 00:29:49.296 bigger, stronger, more put together one. 00:29:49.546 --> 00:29:52.466 Oh, yeah, I guess we both get our backs up. 00:29:52.496 --> 00:29:53.176 I know. 00:29:53.346 --> 00:29:53.846 Yeah. 00:29:53.936 --> 00:29:55.826 Because even if the person's already doing that. 00:29:56.146 --> 00:29:58.366 And you're trying to bring awareness to them, then I get 00:29:58.366 --> 00:29:59.496 nothing but the yeah, buts. 00:29:59.516 --> 00:30:00.326 Oh, well, yeah, but. 00:30:00.626 --> 00:30:02.091 They ask, yeah, but. 00:30:02.091 --> 00:30:05.496 And I think, okay, go talk about that with your therapist and tell 00:30:05.496 --> 00:30:07.886 your kids that mom and dad love you and you're going to be okay, 00:30:08.156 --> 00:30:09.726 and the part about that too. 00:30:10.261 --> 00:30:11.821 I, okay. 00:30:11.821 --> 00:30:15.421 Can I just spit something out and I can even edit this out, but it's like, I'm 00:30:15.421 --> 00:30:16.911 so curious about your, your thoughts. 00:30:16.911 --> 00:30:20.391 Cause this has just came to me the last few days, but so helping people navigate 00:30:20.391 --> 00:30:23.741 that divorce, people want to do co parenting, , you would think that this 00:30:23.741 --> 00:30:27.861 would not be such a surprise, but the lack of communication that got them to the 00:30:27.861 --> 00:30:31.521 point where now they're , they're getting a divorce, but now they're saying, but 00:30:31.601 --> 00:30:32.851 we want to do what's best for the kids. 00:30:32.851 --> 00:30:33.841 Let's learn how to co parent. 00:30:34.561 --> 00:30:36.151 But then they can't communicate. 00:30:36.351 --> 00:30:37.781 That's exactly what got them in this space. 00:30:38.351 --> 00:30:41.691 You know, I've been more familiar with the concept of parallel parenting, 00:30:42.131 --> 00:30:43.071 which I think is fascinating. 00:30:43.071 --> 00:30:43.501 But I don't know. 00:30:43.501 --> 00:30:45.921 Have you worked with much of that? 00:30:45.981 --> 00:30:49.981 I don't see couples, but I will say in my divorce, I refuse to say 00:30:49.981 --> 00:30:52.251 anything negative about my ex husband. 00:30:52.531 --> 00:30:53.681 He's a pretty nice guy too. 00:30:54.771 --> 00:30:56.821 That is not fair to my children. 00:30:57.129 --> 00:30:59.609 And I don't talk negatively . About him to them. 00:30:59.749 --> 00:31:05.149 And not like I'm some paragon of virtue, but not at all, but I felt so strongly 00:31:05.179 --> 00:31:07.619 about that, that is unfair to them. 00:31:07.869 --> 00:31:08.869 I chose him. 00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:11.429 I had them with him. 00:31:11.989 --> 00:31:13.459 . So I have to take the hit. 00:31:13.509 --> 00:31:16.179 I have to find my peers or my therapy, 00:31:16.269 --> 00:31:16.869 , okay, Catherine, 00:31:16.879 --> 00:31:19.809 , I'm going to tell everyone in the world to buy your book as much as I can, but 00:31:19.809 --> 00:31:22.469 now it's all of a sudden I, and I even told you before we jumped on, you already 00:31:22.469 --> 00:31:24.319 have to come back cause I love your book. 00:31:24.629 --> 00:31:28.479 . So when people are as a couples therapist working with this population 00:31:28.489 --> 00:31:31.939 with the, and I usually call it a, and I'll go very gender biased right 00:31:31.939 --> 00:31:33.519 now, because the majority of people. 00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:37.659 That I work with the man is the more narcissistic or emotionally mature and 00:31:37.659 --> 00:31:40.459 again, I work with plenty of where the guy is in a relationship with a 00:31:40.459 --> 00:31:43.469 woman who's more emotionally immature and narcissistic, but I usually call 00:31:43.469 --> 00:31:45.479 the other one the pathologically kind. 00:31:45.479 --> 00:31:48.379 So they've been kind to the point where it is a problem. 00:31:48.379 --> 00:31:50.299 And so then those two together. 00:31:50.629 --> 00:31:54.464 And so when that divorce is occurring and now you've got a, let's say a 16 00:31:54.464 --> 00:31:58.354 year old or we've got a kid in the middle and then they are disappointed 00:31:58.354 --> 00:32:01.274 because let's just say dad forgot to pick him up , on his weekend. 00:32:01.614 --> 00:32:04.834 And then mom says, Oh, it's okay, I'm sure he loves you and he 00:32:04.834 --> 00:32:06.564 maybe is just has a lot going on. 00:32:06.974 --> 00:32:09.844 But the 16 year old that expressed her frustration. 00:32:10.224 --> 00:32:11.964 And so then I'm, I sold on what you're saying. 00:32:11.964 --> 00:32:14.314 I'm not, I don't want to throw him under the bus, but then I've been 00:32:14.324 --> 00:32:16.934 working a little bit more with the, but I do want to validate her feelings. 00:32:16.934 --> 00:32:16.974 Yes. 00:32:17.274 --> 00:32:18.214 Hey, that sounds hard. 00:32:18.264 --> 00:32:19.144 Tell me what that's like. 00:32:19.454 --> 00:32:20.614 I've felt that as well. 00:32:20.904 --> 00:32:23.804 , and so we're having a shared experience, but I, I have not been through it. 00:32:24.249 --> 00:32:27.379 So there's this part of me that would love to get your opinion on something 00:32:27.379 --> 00:32:30.129 like that so I can validate her without throwing Them under the bus and I wonder 00:32:30.129 --> 00:32:32.189 is that is there just a fine line there 00:32:32.199 --> 00:32:36.289 I would say I know from somebody who Thought I was doing good when 00:32:36.289 --> 00:32:38.319 I would try and soothe my children. 00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:44.209 However, I would argue it's easy that Woman that client might be depriving 00:32:44.219 --> 00:32:48.689 their child of their own natural reaction So sometimes when you try to 00:32:48.689 --> 00:32:53.569 sue them and say, something's okay, you can't, it's confusing because say, 00:32:53.569 --> 00:32:58.159 if dad doesn't come through to like step so much of what, the right thing 00:32:58.159 --> 00:33:03.729 to do is restraint and to stay curious to say, what was that like for you? 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.099 Yes. 00:33:04.309 --> 00:33:05.049 Not egg on. 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:05.239 Yeah. 00:33:05.239 --> 00:33:06.149 He's a terrible person. 00:33:06.149 --> 00:33:08.279 Well, let me tell you about the times he forgot me. 00:33:08.449 --> 00:33:13.639 You don't want to go there, but also you don't want to say that's okay. 00:33:13.639 --> 00:33:14.529 I know he loves you. 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:14.759 Cause it. 00:33:15.064 --> 00:33:16.474 Sure as hell didn't feel like love. 00:33:18.484 --> 00:33:21.774 So then that kid is going to go looking for love in all the wrong places. 00:33:22.064 --> 00:33:22.804 That's a good point. 00:33:23.024 --> 00:33:27.024 what you model and what you say, they're taking in mostly as truth. 00:33:27.044 --> 00:33:29.694 And then they get if they feel left. 00:33:30.044 --> 00:33:32.854 What do they do with that feeling, if mom's saying he's a good 00:33:32.854 --> 00:33:34.924 guy, that's really confusing. 00:33:36.254 --> 00:33:36.864 That's absolutely. 00:33:36.874 --> 00:33:39.254 And so, and because then they are saying, okay, well, I don't think he 00:33:39.254 --> 00:33:42.464 is, but that must mean again, I, my emotions and feelings must be wrong. 00:33:43.204 --> 00:33:43.564 Yeah. 00:33:43.774 --> 00:33:44.314 Yeah. 00:33:44.624 --> 00:33:45.214 That's fascinating. 00:33:45.467 --> 00:33:46.247 back to the trap. 00:33:46.247 --> 00:33:47.757 We've got good enough trap guilt trap. 00:33:48.487 --> 00:33:49.347 And this is the next one. 00:33:49.347 --> 00:33:51.757 I'm very curious because this is one that I have potentially 00:33:51.757 --> 00:33:53.317 felt in my own life at times. 00:33:54.107 --> 00:33:55.387 Are we talking to self doubt trap? 00:33:56.617 --> 00:33:56.887 Okay. 00:33:57.037 --> 00:34:01.177 , , I talk about it because when we internalize a parent, which we all do, 00:34:01.927 --> 00:34:07.887 so for a daughter, her mother , can become her internal critic, the mom 00:34:07.927 --> 00:34:12.167 voice in her head, and it can come from her mother's fears for her. 00:34:12.736 --> 00:34:17.686 That's real, but also, if the mom's very insecure and wants a daughter 00:34:17.686 --> 00:34:22.006 to make all the right decisions and becomes very neurotic and anxious and 00:34:22.006 --> 00:34:26.086 is constantly espousing fears or what's going to happen, what's going to happen. 00:34:26.346 --> 00:34:28.106 And then the daughter integrates that. 00:34:28.466 --> 00:34:31.116 And so she has that self doubt. 00:34:31.126 --> 00:34:35.826 She gets further and further away from her own sense of self, like 00:34:35.826 --> 00:34:38.199 trusting herself in the somatic way. 00:34:38.776 --> 00:34:42.986 And more externalized, this happens all in all the good daughter syndrome 00:34:43.006 --> 00:34:48.016 is this externalization, this outsourcing of your trust and of 00:34:48.016 --> 00:34:50.346 your self esteem to another person. 00:34:51.066 --> 00:34:51.596 Right? 00:34:51.816 --> 00:34:52.146 Yeah. 00:34:52.646 --> 00:34:57.116 So you, it's the daughter when she second guesses herself, she can't make a decision 00:34:57.626 --> 00:35:00.476 also because she's been told mistakes. 00:35:00.906 --> 00:35:01.646 are terrible. 00:35:01.846 --> 00:35:05.196 mom needs to be a good mom that her daughter can never make mistakes or show 00:35:05.226 --> 00:35:11.826 any flaw or any crack instead of, the good enough parent says, well, I, feel great 00:35:11.826 --> 00:35:13.836 and happy for you and you're doing well. 00:35:14.286 --> 00:35:15.246 And you know what? 00:35:15.776 --> 00:35:17.756 Your mistakes aren't the end of the world. 00:35:18.236 --> 00:35:18.486 Yeah. 00:35:18.496 --> 00:35:21.396 We all, you know, like lose the game sometime and we learn 00:35:21.396 --> 00:35:23.306 from both and they're yours. 00:35:23.336 --> 00:35:25.976 They're not my mistakes or my accomplishments. 00:35:26.276 --> 00:35:26.676 They're really 00:35:26.701 --> 00:35:27.336 yours. 00:35:27.513 --> 00:35:27.963 that's key. 00:35:27.963 --> 00:35:28.943 And I like what you're talking about. 00:35:28.943 --> 00:35:32.483 , that self doubt when I was reading that and I think where I immediately 00:35:32.483 --> 00:35:36.853 internalized it myself was realizing how often I needed external validation. 00:35:36.988 --> 00:35:41.088 And how, and how much that is, it's so fascinating again, Catherine, I want you 00:35:41.088 --> 00:35:44.588 to poke holes of any of these things, but it fascinates me , and sometimes I 00:35:44.588 --> 00:35:48.208 like slowing things down, when you review the game film, and if I am been thinking 00:35:48.218 --> 00:35:50.738 about something and it's something I really want to do, I've probably 00:35:50.738 --> 00:35:51.938 been thinking about it for a while. 00:35:51.948 --> 00:35:53.808 I've been dreaming about it, hoping about it, reading about it. 00:35:53.808 --> 00:35:54.798 I've got an idea about it. 00:35:54.798 --> 00:35:55.448 And now I say. 00:35:55.888 --> 00:35:58.048 Hey, what do you think about me doing this? 00:35:58.188 --> 00:36:01.948 And I hand that over to somebody that has no idea what it feels like to be me. 00:36:02.498 --> 00:36:06.178 And so I'm telling them, Hey, on this very brief moment, spur of the moment, 00:36:06.298 --> 00:36:08.588 something I've been thinking about for a long time, that's important to me. 00:36:08.828 --> 00:36:09.498 What do you think? 00:36:09.738 --> 00:36:11.878 And then if they're like, I don't think it's a good idea. 00:36:12.028 --> 00:36:12.508 Oh man. 00:36:12.638 --> 00:36:13.008 Okay. 00:36:13.248 --> 00:36:13.918 I thought it was 00:36:13.918 --> 00:36:14.348 right. 00:36:14.558 --> 00:36:16.378 And so that externalizing or what you're saying, you're 00:36:16.378 --> 00:36:17.138 handing that over to somebody. 00:36:17.748 --> 00:36:18.128 Yeah. 00:36:18.128 --> 00:36:22.378 And that's, it's it's almost the point where I think, the pendulum swing concept 00:36:22.378 --> 00:36:25.518 of now I almost feel like I'm not telling anybody anything, which is probably not. 00:36:25.788 --> 00:36:26.428 You can 00:36:26.428 --> 00:36:28.308 get to that, get to that place. 00:36:28.308 --> 00:36:32.478 And you know, I think again, this is gender, but that men are allowed, 00:36:32.488 --> 00:36:34.228 the culture allows them to do that. 00:36:34.608 --> 00:36:35.378 Oh, that's yes. 00:36:35.518 --> 00:36:35.778 Okay. 00:36:35.818 --> 00:36:36.008 More 00:36:36.008 --> 00:36:36.668 easily. 00:36:36.668 --> 00:36:36.728 Okay. 00:36:37.618 --> 00:36:40.678 And again, if it's your parent, she's kept you safe. 00:36:40.678 --> 00:36:44.548 You've learned right from wrong, pretty much throughout development. 00:36:44.848 --> 00:36:47.148 So that's that same person. 00:36:47.148 --> 00:36:50.438 It's hard to or not want to run everything by. 00:36:50.438 --> 00:36:51.298 That's what I hear a lot. 00:36:51.298 --> 00:36:51.658 Yeah. 00:36:52.118 --> 00:36:54.148 Just run everything by their moms. 00:36:54.678 --> 00:37:00.568 And it's like, you know, at some point you just have to cut the cord, pull the 00:37:00.568 --> 00:37:05.248 trigger, whatever the analogy is, and jump into life because it can be paralyzing. 00:37:05.598 --> 00:37:09.048 You can have, , daughters who just spin their wheels and obsessive 00:37:09.048 --> 00:37:13.298 compulsive and try to figure something out and never take the risk because 00:37:13.878 --> 00:37:18.548 they really sense implicitly that they have a parent that needs them to 00:37:18.548 --> 00:37:24.678 succeed so badly that they're carrying mom's sense of self on their back. 00:37:25.438 --> 00:37:25.698 Yeah. 00:37:26.048 --> 00:37:29.908 I it's so good because if they just do it and then if they're saying, Hey, 00:37:29.928 --> 00:37:31.488 did I tell you about the thing I did? 00:37:31.858 --> 00:37:35.228 And I've processed it for those sessions where, somebody's saying, man, my mom 00:37:35.228 --> 00:37:38.458 was really, really disappointed that I didn't I didn't go to her first. 00:37:38.458 --> 00:37:41.778 I didn't ask her for advice and I'll tell you, and this is again, the gender 00:37:41.778 --> 00:37:45.068 difference, but I have a son, but it's, I think it's such a good example. 00:37:45.068 --> 00:37:48.778 This is, he was on a basketball scholarship and then he came to my 00:37:48.778 --> 00:37:53.338 wife and I, and just said, Hey I, I. I decided not to play basketball anymore 00:37:53.358 --> 00:37:54.378 and I'm going to do this other thing. 00:37:54.788 --> 00:37:57.768 And , it was so fascinating because I was learning more about differentiation 00:37:57.768 --> 00:38:01.628 and I realized how much I liked saying he plays basketball, how much 00:38:01.698 --> 00:38:04.258 I wanted to wear the gear and how much I wanted to go to the games. 00:38:04.668 --> 00:38:06.818 And when my wife and I were talking about it later, it was really 00:38:06.818 --> 00:38:08.638 interesting because we did notice that. 00:38:09.218 --> 00:38:12.588 I think one of us said, why didn't he come discuss that with us? 00:38:12.708 --> 00:38:16.238 And I thought to myself, oh, that's amazing that he didn't, because 00:38:16.238 --> 00:38:19.528 he felt like he could make his decision and then bring it to us. 00:38:19.788 --> 00:38:21.288 It was really wild to think of. 00:38:21.288 --> 00:38:25.143 I, my immaturity was so close to bubbling over, but I know what you mean. 00:38:25.383 --> 00:38:25.503 I 00:38:25.503 --> 00:38:26.103 know what you mean. 00:38:26.103 --> 00:38:26.303 Yeah. 00:38:26.328 --> 00:38:26.358 I 00:38:26.358 --> 00:38:27.258 had to restrain it there. 00:38:27.288 --> 00:38:29.208 Yeah, but you restrained it. 00:38:29.728 --> 00:38:30.048 Yeah. 00:38:30.088 --> 00:38:32.448 And you, you could wit witness yourself. 00:38:32.608 --> 00:38:36.268 I think that's so important to be able to, like, witness ourself, like the, our worst 00:38:36.288 --> 00:38:41.498 self, like our best self and then our worst, what my worst self might've done. 00:38:42.218 --> 00:38:42.548 That's for sure. 00:38:42.758 --> 00:38:44.718 But also he didn't need permission from you guys. 00:38:44.718 --> 00:38:45.618 No. 00:38:45.618 --> 00:38:46.048 Which is great. 00:38:46.078 --> 00:38:46.568 Yeah. 00:38:47.638 --> 00:38:48.298 He's the youngest. 00:38:48.298 --> 00:38:49.808 So I think, , , I would say, , jokingly say probably 00:38:49.808 --> 00:38:51.338 the oldest would say, Oh really? 00:38:51.338 --> 00:38:52.288 Like he didn't need permission. 00:38:52.288 --> 00:38:55.988 You guys had to run everything by you guys, so they got 00:38:55.988 --> 00:38:56.988 better as they got older. 00:38:57.358 --> 00:38:57.478 Okay. 00:38:57.478 --> 00:38:59.368 So I put that self doubt trap and then the. 00:38:59.998 --> 00:39:01.358 The mixed message trap too. 00:39:01.428 --> 00:39:02.338 These are so good. 00:39:02.428 --> 00:39:03.098 . Talk about that one. 00:39:03.888 --> 00:39:09.238 And this is, again, I'm going to say gender and may not apply, but so women 00:39:09.248 --> 00:39:15.578 are socialized and mothers are socialized to say the right thing to be supportive. 00:39:15.968 --> 00:39:21.178 And maybe not to be so direct, especially in the South, which is where I'm from. 00:39:21.368 --> 00:39:21.978 Where are you from? 00:39:21.978 --> 00:39:23.088 By the way, where's your accent? 00:39:23.573 --> 00:39:24.903 Raleigh, North Carolina. 00:39:25.363 --> 00:39:27.963 Okay I just, maybe I'll even cut this out, but I lived for five 00:39:27.963 --> 00:39:29.283 years in Larenburg, North Carolina. 00:39:29.293 --> 00:39:29.413 Oh, you did? 00:39:29.413 --> 00:39:31.493 And I was born in East Tennessee. 00:39:31.563 --> 00:39:31.883 When I moved out west. 00:39:31.883 --> 00:39:33.293 Oh my goodness, you have 00:39:33.293 --> 00:39:34.113 no accent. 00:39:34.183 --> 00:39:34.463 Wow. 00:39:34.473 --> 00:39:34.493 No, 00:39:34.493 --> 00:39:36.653 when I moved out west, I did when I was 12 years old. 00:39:36.653 --> 00:39:38.133 I got made fun of so I got rid of it. 00:39:38.133 --> 00:39:38.943 I wish I still had it. 00:39:38.953 --> 00:39:40.333 My parents still keep theirs. 00:39:41.263 --> 00:39:42.003 Interesting. 00:39:42.263 --> 00:39:42.793 Interesting. 00:39:43.723 --> 00:39:47.833 , and then in church culture, my dad was a minister, my mother, a minister's wife. 00:39:48.433 --> 00:39:52.023 So everything kind of flew under the radar. 00:39:52.263 --> 00:39:58.123 So the difficult mother says, The overt thing, pretty socially acceptable, might 00:39:58.123 --> 00:40:02.343 sound supportive, but maybe there's an eye roll, maybe there's a shoulder 00:40:02.343 --> 00:40:04.513 shrug, maybe there's a side eye. 00:40:05.203 --> 00:40:09.143 Good daughters will tell me they learn to read the subtext. 00:40:10.133 --> 00:40:13.303 Don't pay attention to what mom says because it may not 00:40:13.303 --> 00:40:15.303 be exactly what she means. 00:40:15.323 --> 00:40:15.653 Wow. 00:40:16.583 --> 00:40:18.173 I have to walk on eggshells. 00:40:18.223 --> 00:40:21.683 I have to be a mind reader. 00:40:22.143 --> 00:40:29.513 To stay out of trouble, walk on eggshells, not to upset 00:40:29.513 --> 00:40:31.533 her, trigger her in some ways. 00:40:32.173 --> 00:40:38.453 So they end up not being able to trust that anybody's direct with them and trying 00:40:38.453 --> 00:40:43.743 to read and sometimes read incorrectly the subtext of maybe their boss or 00:40:43.743 --> 00:40:46.083 their partner or their girlfriends. 00:40:46.303 --> 00:40:50.323 It's it's can get you all up in your head as young people say these days. 00:40:50.933 --> 00:40:51.443 Overthinking things. 00:40:53.983 --> 00:40:58.743 But that's probably the most unconscious and implied. 00:40:59.463 --> 00:40:59.483 Yeah. 00:40:59.493 --> 00:41:03.423 Of the three traps of the four traps, one being never good enough, 00:41:03.423 --> 00:41:05.613 that's usually the overt criticism. 00:41:06.273 --> 00:41:11.363 The second one, the guilt trap, and then more internal self doubt. 00:41:12.033 --> 00:41:17.093 And then that real splitting, because a lot of shame comes from that, you know, 00:41:17.093 --> 00:41:18.693 if your mother looks at you like that. 00:41:19.123 --> 00:41:19.463 Yeah. 00:41:20.903 --> 00:41:21.383 And I've done something wrong. 00:41:21.383 --> 00:41:24.247 Are you sure you want to . I'm sure you've seen all these 00:41:24.267 --> 00:41:27.027 expressions with Southern women. 00:41:28.267 --> 00:41:30.237 Sitcoms are made of them, right? 00:41:30.557 --> 00:41:30.927 Yes. 00:41:31.207 --> 00:41:32.587 And it is interesting. 00:41:32.727 --> 00:41:35.157 In my couple's work, I have these four pillars of a connected 00:41:35.157 --> 00:41:37.657 conversation, but one of them is you can't tell the other person they're 00:41:37.657 --> 00:41:38.767 wrong or I don't believe them. 00:41:39.087 --> 00:41:42.052 Even if you do think they're wrong and you don't believe them, because at that 00:41:42.052 --> 00:41:45.152 point we got to get to my next pillar, which is questions before comments. 00:41:45.152 --> 00:41:48.272 So curiosity, because if you immediately say that's ridiculous, I didn't say that 00:41:48.282 --> 00:41:49.282 now we're going to go out in the weeds. 00:41:49.622 --> 00:41:52.902 But I only say that because it's really fascinating when someone will 00:41:52.902 --> 00:41:55.632 then learn that they're not going to say that isn't what happened or 00:41:55.632 --> 00:41:58.332 I don't, because they'll know that, okay, that's where that person's coming 00:41:58.332 --> 00:42:00.352 from, then that helps me stay present. 00:42:00.662 --> 00:42:04.282 But the eye rolls, what you said, I'd laugh there where you said the side eyes, 00:42:04.312 --> 00:42:06.872 the size, the, that is a whole talent. 00:42:06.872 --> 00:42:08.702 And for some people. 00:42:09.097 --> 00:42:12.707 , it's funny because I can see what somebody's origin or family of origin 00:42:12.717 --> 00:42:16.167 look like because for some they don't even pick up on those of their partner. 00:42:16.167 --> 00:42:19.147 But for others, they're like did you see him that he, and the guy's 00:42:19.197 --> 00:42:20.447 like, I didn't, I didn't do anything. 00:42:20.837 --> 00:42:23.497 You know, I just I just kind of looked over at you and I've went and you just 00:42:23.527 --> 00:42:27.087 helped me connect some dots there where if that person grew up in a home where 00:42:27.087 --> 00:42:33.177 that's funny, that, that was a huge thing, then she's probably far more sensitive to 00:42:33.227 --> 00:42:36.207 just a, a audible sigh or, uh, yes, yes. 00:42:36.277 --> 00:42:36.807 And she can 00:42:36.907 --> 00:42:39.817 just read it to, it's well, we didn't speak that language at home. 00:42:39.817 --> 00:42:44.797 We spoke the language of subtext and mind reading. 00:42:44.797 --> 00:42:46.987 What we say is not really what we meant, but what you're supposed 00:42:47.037 --> 00:42:48.137 to get from what I've said. 00:42:48.137 --> 00:42:50.677 Oh, that is so tough. 00:42:51.033 --> 00:42:53.593 again, I'm just enjoying having a conversation with you here. 00:42:53.593 --> 00:42:54.483 This is interesting. 00:42:54.563 --> 00:42:55.553 I had a client who's. 00:42:56.108 --> 00:43:01.798 Going through a divorce or about to go through a divorce and and her mom said, 00:43:02.248 --> 00:43:03.908 Hey, can I finally tell you how I feel? 00:43:04.498 --> 00:43:05.678 And it was really fascinating. 00:43:05.678 --> 00:43:08.968 The client and I broke this down because the client said that my 00:43:08.968 --> 00:43:12.108 parents have always been really good because they haven't picked a side. 00:43:12.588 --> 00:43:15.808 And I've got some episodes early on and waking up the narcissism where 00:43:15.808 --> 00:43:19.448 I call out a Switzerland friend, the person that's, Hey, I don't want to 00:43:19.448 --> 00:43:21.388 jump in the middle, but then Yeah. 00:43:21.458 --> 00:43:21.988 Yeah. 00:43:22.158 --> 00:43:22.388 Yeah. 00:43:22.388 --> 00:43:25.678 They're not comfortable enough to express their real opinion because they're 00:43:25.678 --> 00:43:28.348 worried that someone will get angry. 00:43:28.408 --> 00:43:32.438 And so when this person's mom finally said, I've watched you be invalidated for 00:43:32.438 --> 00:43:34.238 years and that's really broken my heart. 00:43:34.648 --> 00:43:37.578 The client they had mixed emotions. 00:43:37.578 --> 00:43:40.232 One was, oh my gosh, I feel so validated, but another was, that 00:43:40.232 --> 00:43:41.558 would have been nice to know. 00:43:44.668 --> 00:43:47.918 But now I did say, would you have, five years ago, would you have listened 00:43:47.918 --> 00:43:49.238 if your mom would have said it? 00:43:49.308 --> 00:43:50.358 And then they said, probably not. 00:43:50.538 --> 00:43:52.328 I probably would've said, you know, you don't understand. 00:43:52.378 --> 00:43:55.228 That being direct is like a fascinating concept. 00:43:55.418 --> 00:43:55.888 Yeah. 00:43:56.328 --> 00:43:59.168 I don't think men are socialized to value directness. 00:43:59.788 --> 00:44:01.428 Don't you for the most part? 00:44:01.638 --> 00:44:04.468 I know this is where okay Tell me if you run into this gathering my I work 00:44:04.468 --> 00:44:08.078 with this population far too much so what you just said is true, but my 00:44:08.288 --> 00:44:12.548 brain immediately goes to the direct examples of the narcissistic person 00:44:12.968 --> 00:44:14.848 Where you know, yeah, they're being mean. 00:44:14.848 --> 00:44:18.228 We're like, I'm just being honest, you know, it's kind of being a jerk. 00:44:18.228 --> 00:44:19.118 Yeah. 00:44:19.118 --> 00:44:20.008 Yeah. 00:44:20.008 --> 00:44:20.128 Yeah. 00:44:20.998 --> 00:44:21.508 Right. 00:44:21.558 --> 00:44:22.008 Right. 00:44:22.188 --> 00:44:22.858 That's true. 00:44:22.868 --> 00:44:23.578 I think so. 00:44:23.728 --> 00:44:27.198 Yes, that does not give you a free pass to be a jerk. 00:44:27.468 --> 00:44:27.878 . Yeah. 00:44:27.938 --> 00:44:30.898 And I guess it just shows why the relationships can be such 00:44:30.898 --> 00:44:33.283 a. Such a wonderful minefield of 00:44:33.353 --> 00:44:33.813 Yes. 00:44:34.293 --> 00:44:34.613 Yes. 00:44:35.103 --> 00:44:36.743 Hey, we're gonna run out of time today. 00:44:36.743 --> 00:44:39.413 I'm going to have you on eight more times, but what else do people need to 00:44:39.413 --> 00:44:41.283 know about the good daughter syndrome? 00:44:41.343 --> 00:44:41.753 Help me. 00:44:41.823 --> 00:44:44.343 Cause so many people are going to, I think, identify with this and I 00:44:44.343 --> 00:44:46.403 really definitely go take your quiz. 00:44:46.403 --> 00:44:49.078 Cause that was, I almost recorded as I took it. 00:44:49.098 --> 00:44:49.468 Okay. 00:44:49.468 --> 00:44:50.068 Is that the place? 00:44:50.158 --> 00:44:50.548 Okay. 00:44:50.588 --> 00:44:54.178 That's a place to start to see if you resonate as you've experienced 00:44:54.178 --> 00:44:56.328 the questions get your mind turning. 00:44:56.628 --> 00:45:00.028 And if you just Google the good daughter syndrome quiz. 00:45:00.998 --> 00:45:02.358 You will find me. 00:45:02.778 --> 00:45:06.368 I'm Catherine Fabrizio, but that's less important than the phrase, 00:45:06.368 --> 00:45:07.878 the good daughter syndrome. 00:45:08.148 --> 00:45:08.658 Yeah. 00:45:09.128 --> 00:45:13.038 So if you're like, yeah, this could be me and it's on a continuum of 00:45:13.038 --> 00:45:14.598 course, like so many things are. 00:45:15.058 --> 00:45:17.638 What I thought was really interesting too, is I took it the way. 00:45:18.323 --> 00:45:20.353 Oh, and I also have I was gonna say crippling, but I'm 00:45:20.353 --> 00:45:21.603 going to say wonderful ADHD. 00:45:21.973 --> 00:45:24.253 So I read the first one and I was like, Oh my gosh. 00:45:24.293 --> 00:45:25.863 And I thought that's the one. 00:45:26.243 --> 00:45:28.223 And then I would jump to the next question. 00:45:28.223 --> 00:45:31.813 And then I saw that, Oh, it's not just a black or white. 00:45:31.813 --> 00:45:32.963 You've got, I love the questions. 00:45:32.963 --> 00:45:33.493 They're nuanced. 00:45:33.503 --> 00:45:35.763 So then I had to go back to the first one and I wasn't, Oh yeah, I 00:45:35.763 --> 00:45:37.423 didn't really exactly identify here. 00:45:37.423 --> 00:45:38.323 So it's a very good. 00:45:38.823 --> 00:45:39.893 Way to self defense. 00:45:40.213 --> 00:45:40.823 . Thank you. 00:45:40.833 --> 00:45:40.993 Yeah. 00:45:41.013 --> 00:45:41.533 I tried. 00:45:41.553 --> 00:45:45.843 Well, particularly with mother daughter stuff, I think the truth is in the nuance. 00:45:46.233 --> 00:45:46.263 It's. 00:45:47.353 --> 00:45:50.733 If something is, as, you know, a regular pattern we all can act 00:45:50.733 --> 00:45:54.913 badly as parents or be overbearing or intrusive and give unwanted 00:45:54.913 --> 00:45:56.743 advice or bust through boundaries. 00:45:57.313 --> 00:46:01.513 So it's really more a thing of, is it all the time and pervasive? 00:46:01.513 --> 00:46:05.718 And can you make no strides to change it or. 00:46:06.268 --> 00:46:08.088 Is it somewhere in the middle? 00:46:08.388 --> 00:46:09.728 . Catherine, can I ask you one more question? 00:46:09.768 --> 00:46:11.858 Because there, there is a quote that I also pulled out here 00:46:11.858 --> 00:46:13.268 and I thought this is powerful. 00:46:13.368 --> 00:46:17.148 The impossible choice in the good daughter trap your face with an impossible choice. 00:46:17.538 --> 00:46:20.158 Be the, I think this was off your Instagram be the good daughter 00:46:20.158 --> 00:46:23.178 and lose yourself, but stand up for yourself and lose mom. 00:46:23.658 --> 00:46:27.788 What do you see is the work that It needs to happen to get to that point where 00:46:27.788 --> 00:46:29.768 someone's even able to make that choice. 00:46:29.858 --> 00:46:32.568 I think awareness is such a huge part of it. 00:46:32.628 --> 00:46:36.528 I know that's an overused word, but it comes out of an enmeshed 00:46:36.528 --> 00:46:38.748 relationship, again, undifferentiated. 00:46:38.748 --> 00:46:46.508 So you can have the feeling, emphasis on feeling when you differentiate. 00:46:46.763 --> 00:46:52.413 You can feel like it's a zero sum game that either mom is relevant or you're 00:46:52.413 --> 00:46:57.443 relevant, but when you differentiate, she can have her reactions, her opinions. 00:46:57.753 --> 00:47:00.073 She can go on being who she's always been. 00:47:00.083 --> 00:47:02.373 Frankly, that always surprises daughters. 00:47:02.563 --> 00:47:03.913 It's not going to destroy her. 00:47:04.143 --> 00:47:06.093 Her defenses are going to take care of her. 00:47:06.643 --> 00:47:08.453 They have up until you were born. 00:47:08.633 --> 00:47:11.423 She's not gonna like not having your supply. 00:47:11.523 --> 00:47:11.833 Yes, 00:47:12.353 --> 00:47:17.233 but You can become your your own person It doesn't have to be one person is 00:47:17.233 --> 00:47:22.343 defeated and the other person wins at the expense of somebody else But if you 00:47:22.343 --> 00:47:27.993 recognize because of the Developmental differential that she has had power over 00:47:27.993 --> 00:47:34.148 you For so long, and now you have more power than, you know, that's another 00:47:34.148 --> 00:47:39.708 message you have, because now as an adult, you really control, you get to 00:47:39.708 --> 00:47:44.068 say how much access she has to you, how much time you all spend together. 00:47:44.528 --> 00:47:46.638 And then, of course, there's the grandchildren, but even, 00:47:46.868 --> 00:47:47.958 not even bringing that up. 00:47:47.978 --> 00:47:54.938 But when you wake up of your awakening, when you wake up and realize you've been 00:47:54.948 --> 00:47:59.308 ceding your sovereignty to somebody else. 00:48:00.183 --> 00:48:03.503 It was never appropriate, but certainly way past the developmental 00:48:03.753 --> 00:48:08.263 stage when you should be your own person, make your decisions right 00:48:08.263 --> 00:48:10.303 or wrong, have your own life. 00:48:10.963 --> 00:48:13.003 That's, it's incredibly empowering. 00:48:13.503 --> 00:48:13.983 Yeah. 00:48:14.053 --> 00:48:15.173 Catherine, that's beautifully said. 00:48:15.183 --> 00:48:17.603 That is that hand in that sovereignty over. 00:48:17.673 --> 00:48:20.733 And I like what you're saying is we're talking about, it's not a zero sum 00:48:20.733 --> 00:48:24.453 game, but I think you laid out that so well, where it feels that way and 00:48:24.463 --> 00:48:25.643 we don't know what we don't know. 00:48:25.723 --> 00:48:26.513 And it does. 00:48:27.483 --> 00:48:31.143 The uncertainty of that we're so afraid of uncertainty, but then it's, there's 00:48:31.143 --> 00:48:34.573 this I love this quote, this he's a, Millie's a psychedelic researcher, 00:48:34.573 --> 00:48:37.423 Terrence McKenna, but he talks about, jumping out into the great abyss and 00:48:37.423 --> 00:48:38.713 finding out that it's a feather bed. 00:48:39.093 --> 00:48:42.633 And I just like that concept because so often we are so afraid of 00:48:42.653 --> 00:48:44.233 jumping out into that great abyss. 00:48:44.603 --> 00:48:48.318 And so we'll just stay attached to the person that will tell us what to 00:48:48.318 --> 00:48:51.318 do and how to feel even though it, we feel like we're betraying ourselves. 00:48:51.598 --> 00:48:52.588 So I love the way you put that. 00:48:52.668 --> 00:48:53.338 That was beautiful. 00:48:53.878 --> 00:48:55.688 Catherine, we will, I will have you on. 00:48:55.898 --> 00:48:57.258 I would love to do this again. 00:48:57.378 --> 00:49:00.068 And right, and then so the book is The Good Daughter Syndrome, 00:49:00.108 --> 00:49:01.458 and I'll have links everywhere. 00:49:01.778 --> 00:49:05.938 And then if for listeners, if you are I have my private women's Facebook 00:49:05.948 --> 00:49:09.448 group, which I will hopefully get Catherine to come jump in and say hi 00:49:09.448 --> 00:49:12.788 to there as well for people that are in, in, in narcissistic relationships. 00:49:13.178 --> 00:49:14.758 And then Catherine, thanks so much. 00:49:14.758 --> 00:49:17.778 I'll have all the links to everything in the show notes, but 00:49:17.848 --> 00:49:18.978 I really appreciate you being here. 00:49:19.358 --> 00:49:22.138 Well, thank you for your work and your thoughtful questions, 00:49:23.208 --> 00:49:25.338 discussion of which many more to come. 00:49:25.338 --> 00:49:25.608 I hope. 00:49:25.858 --> 00:49:26.158 Okay. 00:49:26.198 --> 00:49:27.028 We'll talk again soon.