Hey everybody.
Welcome to another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, please , go find me there.
Also on Instagram at Virtual couch and on TikTok at Virtual Couch.
Doing more live question and answers.
Usually it's on a Sunday night, maybe another time during the week.
So look out for those and you can submit any question that you have, feedback,
comments , if you're interested in working with me or having me come speak,
, to your group, to your organization.
I was gonna say to your kids' party, I, I don't know if that
would be actually the greatest idea.
. But reach out at contact@tonyoverbay.com or go to tony over bay.com, the
website and sign up for my newsletter.
There's , a lot of great things coming.
I have not talked about this enough, I need to get the word out more, my
friend, Julie Lee and I, she's the co-host of the Love A DHD podcast that we've done.
She's also the author of a book called ICU., We're going on a
cruise and not like together.
I'm taking my wife actually and she's taking her husband, but we
are doing an A DHD themed cruise.
That is next January, and I cannot wait.
There will be workshops and, , opportunities to, to connect and meet,
and that is coming up in January.
If you're interested or wanna know more details, reach out to
me at contact@tonyoverbay.com or go follow me, follow Julie Lee.
I'll have the links and the show notes, and you can get
more information about that.
, I'm excited.
It's gonna be really, , really fun.
And I also, I am grateful for the amount of feedback that I received from part one.
Of the Emotional Immaturity podcast that I shared a little over a week ago.
I've had , more questions, more comments, more feedback from that than I have on
a podcast in a long time, , I really believe that that's the work to be done.
We, we have an emotional immaturity epidemic and just being able
to identify and understand.
The root cause of our emotionally immature behaviors.
And then what do we do with them as adults?
Because I will maintain that narcissistic personality disorder is a small percentage
of the population, although we throw it around like it's most everybody,
and we are all emotionally immature.
If you haven't listened to that episode, please do.
I just think it's enlightening and it's just coming from a place of
just to be aware is the first step toward growing, changing, becoming.
So check that out.
So today I have, I think it's a powerful, it's a funny, it's a wonderful
conversation to share with you that I think is gonna resonate so deeply
Let me step into my role as a therapist, although I am not your therapist.
I'm not providing you therapy, but hypothetically speaking.
Lay down on your couch unless you're driving or on a treadmill.
But, uh, and go ahead and tell me about your mom.
I know that's such a therapist trope, but today we're gonna talk
about the connection with your mom.
Did you ever find yourself constantly trying to please your mom?
But it felt like no matter what you would do, it never quite seemed good enough.
Or do you feel an overwhelming sense of responsibility for your
mom's emotional wellbeing now?
It can even feel like it's so familiar of, well, yeah.
I don't want to disappoint her or I want her to be proud.
I know athletes are wanting to buy their mom's houses.
There's a lot to do with the feelings we have toward our mom or maybe you
struggle to set boundaries without being consumed by guilt or just
facing such intense pushback that you eventually give up and just think,
you know what, it's not worth it.
I don't wanna upset my mom, and I'm just gonna kick that can down the road.
, today we're gonna talk about a book called The Good Daughter Syndrome written by a
psychologist named Catherine Fabrizio, , and it was such an enjoyable conversation,
but also , she knows her stuff so well.
She also deals in the world of emotionally immature and narcissistic people.
The title of this book is called The Good Daughter Syndrome.
Now before any males in my audience tune out or stop listening,
I have a confession to make.
I took Catherine's good daughter quiz before interviewing
her, and , , it was wild.
It turns out, and I tell her in the interview, I think I have a little bit
of good daughter syndrome myself, and I'm not even a daughter because these, these
patterns really aren't exclusively female.
They can show up in anybody who's been in the caretaking role with a
difficult parent If you are already feeling guilty because you , you're
saying, my, my mom's not a narcissist., I'm definitely not saying that she is.
But I love the way Catherine tackles this because she's talking about if you
have been, an emotional caretaker, , I call them, if you've ever been your
mom's emotional support animal.
If any of this sounds familiar, then you're definitely not alone because
these are the hallmarks of what Catherine calls good daughter syndrome.
It's this set of hidden psychological traps that keep kind, caring,
empathetic, individuals.
People that I often refer to as the pathologically kind locked into these
painful cycles with some difficult controlling, , or even narcissistic moms.
Catherine is a licensed psychotherapist.
She's been doing this for over 30 years, focusing primarily on
treating adult daughters that are trapped into this good daughter role.
, Catherine is a clinical expert, , but she also shares her own
personal story and it's powerful.
Her mom was a therapist, the very mother that she is the daughter to, so she
is a recovering good daughter herself.
The book, , has won multiple awards.
And in it, Catherine provides a roadmap for daughters.
, I will maintain sons.
, who feel stuck in these, complex maternal relationships
so what makes Catherine's approach, I think, really, really valuable
is that it goes past just labeling moms as narcissistic or borderline
or difficult, she focuses on these unconscious psychological traps that.
That keep kind, empathetic daughters paralyzed with guilt or unable
to create boundaries to thrive.
What you'll really hear in the interview today, and if you get the book, which
again I can't recommend enough, so much of this is gonna feel familiar and it's
gonna be a lot of light bulbs going off of, I didn't even know that that was not.
A good thing it doesn't feel good, but I thought that's just the way things are.
'cause during this conversation, we, we explore how to recognize if you've
fallen into this good daughter role or what these specific psychological
traps are , that keep you stuck in these destructive patterns that leave you
feeling unseen, unheard, or oftentimes feeling like you have to prioritize
your mom's emotions, which causes you to lack a true sense of self.
We're gonna talk about some practical strategies for trying to set boundaries
that actually stick also ways to banish the negative internalized mother
that fuels the self-doubt in you.
And she goes into detail on how to say no without letting guilt control everything.
And just sidetrack you.
What I really have appreciated the most about Catherine's work, and I've gotten to
communicate with her quite a bit since the interview, is that, , she is an optimist.
You'll feel her energy.
, her work offers hope.
You don't have to remain stuck in this disempowering dynamic forever,
even if your mom never changes.
You can, you can learn to break free.
You can claim a life that is truly your own.
And it's one where you, you will gradually replace self-doubt and , shame with
self-trust and then self-acceptance.
And I think especially for my waking up to narcissism listeners, this is the kind
of conversation that it will give you an aha moment or two, your own aha moment.
And I think that it will give these insights into how the
dynamics with difficult moms.
Create lasting patterns that then we project or diffuse onto our own
kids or in our own relationships.
, she has a step-by-step system and she provides tools and they compliment
the healing journey that so many of you that if you are listening to this
podcast already, I know that you're on.
Whether.
You identify as a good daughter yourself, or if you're just trying to
understand the complex dynamics , of this relationship with your mom, these
maternal relationships that are affected by narcissism or extreme emotional
immaturity, I think you're gonna get a lot outta this episode today.
And I have already reached out to her to have her on again.
So if you hear this episode today and you have questions or comments, then please
reach out through contact@tonyoverbay.com and I would love , to bring those up
the next time that I have Catherine on.
, without any further ado, let me get into my conversation with Catherine Fabrizio,
author of the Good Daughter Syndrome.
And then I will start with a I'm sure I will have already did a
wonderful intro, Catherine, welcome.
Welcome.
I was gonna say welcome to the virtual couch, virtual couch
listeners will hear this, but welcome to waking up to narcissism.
Thanks for joining me.
I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited about your work and to be able to add my two cents and discuss,
dive deep with some topics with you.
I have to tell you, this is funny, I dunno, I like talking about the insider
baseball stuff, the behind the scenes.
So your, I dunno if that was your publicist that had reached out or
an assistant had reached out and said, Hey, Catherine's interested.
And and to be fair I get probably one or two of those a day and I don't,
I don't read all of them in yours.
Yeah.
Hearing this, you had the word narcissism or in the, yeah.
And then here's what we can talk about.
So I'm in.
And so then then we book it, you send the book and you wrote a handwritten note.
And I was like, and then all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, this is, I was so flattered.
But then it was still being set up through your, your publicist.
So then I went on her Instagram and I was like, cause that book is amazing.
We'll talk so much about it.
I felt like, Oh my gosh, where is Catherine Ben?
How do I not know her already?
And so I can't lie.
I was having a moment where then when I reached out to you through Instagram
and you came back and said, you're actually listening to my podcast.
I felt so seen Catherine.
Great.
Yeah, that was
good.
I had a similar experience.
I'm like, I went and told my husband, I'm like, this guy really gets it.
You know, how come I haven't come across his stuff?
Um, it was funny.
So this is gonna be good.
Like, I dunno if I can add anything.
This guy know so much, so I'll full dis disclosure.
Wait.
Okay.
That's so nice.
So I'm, and the book is The Good Daughter Syndrome and it's the, what they call it,
the sub subtitle or the help for empath?
Yeah, the subtitle.
Subtitle, okay.
Help for em.
Empathic Daughters of Narcissistic Borderline or Difficult Mothers trapped
in the Role of the Good Daughter.
And that covers my audience.
So many of them.
And then I joked with Catherine that.
I took her quiz, which I'll have the link in the show notes,
and please everyone go take it.
Because I was having a moment even going through the questions, but I told
Catherine, I think I have, I think I have good daughter syndrome, you know?
I know, I
did struggle.
I do have some men who kind of take me to task and say, Hey, I'm the good son.
Why are you talking about this?
Yeah.
And I think it's true.
There are some gender differences, however, narcissism as a child
affects you and why wouldn't it?
Absolutely.
And so that's what I think we'll go on the road then.
I'll cover the nice guy syndrome, the good daughter syndrome,
we'll have a act in Vegas.
I want some tigers or something like that.
Okay.
All right.
So that's stay tuned.
We'll talk more about that.
So Catherine, tell me about you, who you are and what you do
and how we got to where we are.
And then I want to dive deep into the book.
Okay.
Well, I'm a psychotherapist of probably 35 years now.
It sounds like a long time.
I am a daughter, recovered most of the time, sometimes recovering,
good daughter, and I'm a mother to grown daughters in their early
thirties and I'm still learning.
Okay.
And they call me to task.
I know you have kids that are very active.
Yes,
they are.
They keep me straight and I have grandchildren.
Well, you've also been divorce as well, right?
And then remarried , and and then you've been a therapist for 35 years.
The things that you, I'm trying to make this a big quote, but I know that
when you try to force something, it probably isn't, but you can't lead
somebody where you haven't been before.
And so as a as a hopefully becoming more emotionally mature, you're recovering.
Emotionally immature person with narcissistic traits and tendencies with
ADHD seeking validation nice guy syndrome It's a lot easier to lead someone there.
I haven't had an eating disorder.
I don't really have OCD I can talk about those but so I love hearing all
the things that you have It's been through in your life that you can help.
Do you want me to talk about how I first came upon the good daughter syndrome?
Please do.
Yeah.
Tell us.
Okay.
So we're going to time travel to about 35 years ago.
I had married a very nice man, had two beautiful daughters, had just
graduated from graduate school and went into practice with my mother.
Oh.
Wow.
That's incredible.
Really?
Who was a psychologist and a debate champion and a minister's wife.
Oh, man.
Okay.
Catherine, go sit on your couch.
Well, yeah, I'll, take over from here.
Okay.
So, okay, not
I didn't know what I thought, but in a nanosecond, I could
tell you what she thought.
And if she was cool with me, she was okay.
She was okay.
And if she was okay with me, she was very smart.
And tell me what to do.
And I did it and weighed in on every decision, including where
I bought a house, how I parented my then very young children.
There were 3 people in my marriage, my husband and my mother.
And I can tell you which 1 got the most say.
Did it just seem normal, Catherine?
Was that the, that was the familiar?
It seemed perfectly normal.
Anybody who looked at us would say, isn't that a beautiful thing?
You're a therapist, just like your mom.
And we look like two peas in a pod.
However, one pea was always in charge.
What was that like for your husband at the time?
Well, he kind of grew up in a matriarchy.
And so he really kind of deferred to her, which not blaming him, but it
was just part of as family systems do and intergenerational stuff does.
It just happened that way.
. So there wasn't a lot of friction and initially, but
this depression got my attention.
So I got into psychotherapy.
I got in touch with that.
I wasn't becoming my own person.
I wasn't becoming my own woman.
And this had roots in childhood.
Good daughter.
I didn't call it that at the time, so I walked in our office,
I'll never forget the day.
With my heart and my throat, and I said in kind of a disembodied
voice, Mom, I need to leave home.
I'm leaving the practice.
And I knew it would break her heart because that had been her dream.
But I also knew staying would break me.
So it was one of those, and you talk about being at the free
throw line, you're all poised in, you rehearsed it and everything.
But when you do it it was like this voice that I had to rehearse that I
just heard the kind of disembodied.
I didn't know that was a trauma response at the time.
Okay.
Yeah.
But that started us off on a trajectory.
That ended, I was holding her hand when she took her last breath throughout
the rest of my adult life and her life.
And it had to be renegotiated again and again, you know, I'd love to say
that, that, that just set the stage and the clouds parted and she realized
everything and it was smooth sailing.
It wasn't, but she was a perfect mother for me because she taught
me by renegotiating these things and coming to terms and getting
back in touch with myself.
What was not worth it?
Like maybe we'd go back and forth in emails, like tons of them over a weekend,
trying to explain, be seen, be heard.
And were you aware as you were doing that, , would you recognize that I'm
not ever going to feel seen or heard?
Or were there times where you felt like that you, you did make some ground there?
I
was hope springs eternal
and
narcissism.
See this is 35 years ago.
Nobody had ever heard the word boundary.
I just was, I just felt like I was being bad.
I was being, but I knew I had to do it.
So I had to reinvent.
All this stuff for myself and nowadays, I feel like in the past 5
years, all these word gaslighting.
Yeah.
Zero sum game.
I was listening to on your podcast.
I was like, wait a minute.
I thought of that.
I wrote about that in my book.
The new truth is truth.
Whatever emerges.
Yeah.
It's wild.
Isn't it?
It is.
I'll hear somebody, I'll hear somebody say, we don't know what we don't know.
And all of a sudden I'll think, wait, they must listen to my podcast and I'll
think, well, that's pretty narcissistic.
That's a pretty generic saying.
so no, it was, I would exhaust myself.
I mean, she was a very smart woman and I would think logic and we were
both psychologists for God's sake.
And I would.
Mom.
She just, she did not have it in her to give it to me.
I would say 80 percent of the time there would be these glimmers.
And when she was feeling okay, as we know about, human nature,
she didn't need the defenses.
And she would say, you know, you're right.
You had a better mother than I did.
And I would ever think, Oh, she gets it, but then life would happen and
stress would happen and she would need those narcissistic defenses.
Catherine, , I went through a period, I think this pendulum swing of where
every single thing that the narcissist says, there's an angle to it.
It's coming from this false self.
But then there was one client in particular who she was expressing a
moment with her narcissistic husband.
And she said, But in that moment, I swear he got it for a moment and
I thought about that for so long and then I came back and I even said,
okay, I will give you that he may have got it for a moment, but then that
felt so uncomfortable that then it's like, okay, no, you could be right.
And then give it pause.
Yeah.
But if you wouldn't have said this, then I wouldn't have had to.
And then they can breathe.
But do they, do you think they get it for a moment or are you on that, No,
it's like whatever they need to do,
that's a really good question.
And I said, the truth is in the nuances.
And as I feel myself, my narcissism come forth with my kids.
And then when I go home and get settled with my husband, have some
reflective time, so I know for myself that there's some fluctuation.
Also my mother was an analysis for 10 years.
There was that, but nine times out of 10, now I'm going back on the
90%,
I really think they can't sustain it.
You can't count on them to sustain it.
Would you agree with that?
I do so much.
And I do.
And because these concepts of they said, I will never do that.
I will, except for when I do, but then there's a reason why, or, it's a,
it's whatever happens in that moment.
. And then that's I think where the gaslighting is so powerful because then
in that moment it makes sense for them.
So then therefore you actually were wrong and that isn't what I said because
it couldn't have been what I said.
And, uh, and then that gets exhausting.
Yeah, it really is.
Okay.
Can I quote you in your book and we can kind of dive in there a little bit too.
And I want to hear all about how you got the good daughter syndrome.
But you said something that I thought was so perfect , you carry this
false belief in your adult life where you think you're selfish.
When you attend to your own needs instead of mom's.
And I wonder at times when people are just trying to be heard.
Is that a version of I want to be heard.
I need to be heard.
But then at some point, if you are not, then does it feel selfish
it's, I think it's very disconcerting when you have a mom who gets you
some of the time and you want to be.
And then this is a gender thing, but you want to be in alliance with that person.
Well, the person that pulled you out of , oncoming traffic, the person
that, kept your hand off the hot stove.
. And so I know you know this, but and so I think it's just, it's
even more than guilt inducing.
It's unsettling because it kind of, on everything.
So wait a minute, what can, with a parent particularly and a parent
who's cared for you adequately in many ways, know, trying to reconcile that
and was doing the best they could.
, even if that wasn't good enough, thank you, Winnicott, don't need to be perfect,
but I do think for the good daughter, you feel selfish when you differentiate,
which is such an eye opener, and I think can help women struggling.
That there's, there's this force, this natural force to bond and to connect,
but there's also a force biologically in the universe to become your own
person, to claim your life for your own.
And you're not bad for doing so, but sometimes you're going to feel
like you're betraying your mother.
. I love what you're saying there too, because I have been so fascinated by the
concepts of differentiation, maybe the last year or two, and and then realizing
then that If I want my kid to do a certain thing or I think they would be good
at, or I don't want them to feel like that's a lot of me stuff and, but yeah.
But I can think I'm doing it because I want to be a good dad or I want them
to know I care still all me things.
And if they're, like you say, trying to find this autonomy and I'm the one that's
keeping them needed, you know, I need them to make me feel like I'm a good person.
That's really selfish of me as a parent.
It's so slippery and tricky.
Isn't it?
Especially when you're a therapist.
Oh man.
Yeah.
It's supposed to be good at this, but
then you're like, this is my, is this my ego or is this
really an altruistic parenting?
And it's, I think it's hard.
I think we have to inquire I have a daughter who went through a bad breakup.
I've got all kinds of theories.
I'm like, if you want to take him apart with knives, I can do that.
I would love to do that with you.
She wasn't ready to do that yet.
And I was like, Hmm, this is so hard, but you know, saying, okay,
what would feel supportive to you?
That is hard.
. Cause I'm so working on this, Catherine.
If somebody doesn't come to me with curiosity.
I still want to let them know what I think.
I love that.
Yeah.
But then is that me just wanting validation?
I think it is.
I want them to know I know what I'm talking about.
. But at least we can question it, right?
Yeah.
Well, right now.
Talk about
Yeah, what led to the book?
And I, cause I can only imagine as a therapist of 20 years, all the
things that I can't wait to get to 30.
Because all the things I didn't know that I didn't know at 10, and then I
learned at 15, and now learning now, and I'm excited now for the things
that I don't know, but also, do you agree where things just start to make
sense, or they you see all the patterns,
yeah, yes, I love your word, patterns.
I would say, yes, every year of life brings on, New insight, and the more
curious I am, and the more I try and practice humility, not have the
answers, wait for my clients to tell me their, people are so conflicted
that it's not just one problem, but they're anyway, they're conflicted.
To let that kind of flesh out, come to the surface for me, so I had my own
experience with my own particular mother.
And then again, this was a while back.
I had women, I see just women come in who maybe they were in a
narcissistic relationship with a partner and would dig a little further.
And usually they would have a template.
Of a parent, some women would come in and they would have gone to a therapist,
maybe in the early twenties, the therapist said, your mother's a narcissist.
And they said, so I quit that therapist.
That's not very nice of her or the other side, or she told me,
you know, you only have 1 mother, you need to honor your mother.
And so.
You need to get yourself straight.
So I saw variations on the theme.
I also saw sociopathic mothers who had daughters who would come
see me and that wasn't my mother.
I don't think I know enough to speak to the That concept of
sociopathy what's that look like?
Well, I never forget this one client who's, so her mother was
in AA and still drinking, picking up chips and still drinking.
She would, she's just an odd thing.
She would break in line.
She wasn't handicapped and she would park in handicap.
And, so, of course, in a diagnosis we use persistent and pervasive.
. So in helping daughters assess, is mom likely to change?
That's kind of a guideline.
Does she break rules, or regard herself as above it all in all situations?
Or is it just in this one relationship?
, has she always been there?
She been this way for a very long time.
So chances are as we know, like defenses are very hard to change and
the more rigid they are and you can buy a questioning with your, with
your client, you can assess that and then prepare them To not hold out hope
the person's going to change.
I love the, watching your energy shift there, Catherine, because
it is interesting because you and I both know that, but the
client has to get to that point.
And I do think sometimes it's, it does it almost, it breaks my heart to think when
you have a new person come in and they're first of all saying, okay, is it me?
What can I do?
Because if I can make it about me, then I can fix it.
But that's a if they're trying to fix the things that mom's telling them
to go fix because that'll do it for some reason, but mom's just projecting
and diffusing discomfort and anxiety and you name it, wanting validation.
And so sometimes I just think , okay, , how many times are you
going to go through this rule out of, no, I think I get it now.
I think she's, I think I can just explain it or she'll understand now.
And you and I know that.
That's that's adorable to think that.
And sometimes I'll say, why don't you set very small boundary, very small and
whatever, differs for a person and they'll like, do you want to maybe just spend
one night a week with mom or one hour or something even, so it doesn't have to
be, you know, The change that I wish they would make, but set one small boundary
and prepare for pushback because the pushback that you get is going to be data.
Yes.
I love that.
Yeah.
Like reframe that and have, have your, whatever your support group is, your
therapist, maybe your partner, your girlfriends, have them at the ready.
Expect the pushback.
Do not expect this to go well, but how, whatever she does, because she may.
Not like it at first people don't like to be called out and then she may come back
around in a couple of days Well, then, you know, you got something to work with.
. I'm just a horrible mother.
What have I ever done to deserve this?
Well, just tell me all the things I'm doing Um, or threatened, to harm
themselves or call everybody in the family and then all the flying monkeys
come in and call you, but you're going to get, so don't what choose the hill
you're going to die on, but set that small boundary and use that data.
Cause it tells you something.
It does.
, in your book, you talk about these specific traps of good daughter syndrome.
And I wonder, is this a good segue into what those traps are?
Yeah.
So the first one, probably the most prevalent one, I call
the never good enough trap.
, and this is particularly for narcissistic moms.
So the mom who needs the relevance, the feelings of superiority to defeat you
actually . Is going to move the goalpost.
You know this.
She's and you're going if you're the good daughter, you want her
approval and her permission.
And so you're going to try and try and try.
You never quite make it.
Right?
Yeah.
Because mom can't achieve her feelings of superiority if she's
like, yeah, okay, you did it.
Um, , right?
Then I'm no longer the value.
. Then I , I will not be necessary.
. So there'll always be something.
I'll
lose my relevance.
, and this can and tip in, again, as you know, probably people can
develop perfectionistic tendencies.
Women in particular can develop eating disorders or cutting.
Call it acting in.
Oh, I like that.
. If they're more of the empathetic, sensitive type who really want to
be good They're probably not the ones that are going to act out.
Now the second trap, I call it the guilt trap, and that comes
from feeling responsible for your mother's emotional well being.
So you know, we are born to this one caregiver, and biologically,
we learn to love the one that we're given, because that's how we survive.
That's how we get fed.
Safe.
. And so over time and throughout development, we do
more of the emotional work.
So mom's regulating through us rather than the other way around.
. Do you run into this, where somebody is going through a divorce and then they say,
we want to do what's best for the kids.
And I just wrote this document about what that looks like
in real life where the adult.
emotional and then they say, well, what am I supposed to do?
I need to let my kids to see that emotions are okay, but it's right.
I've been, your reaction says it all because , Oh no, that is your.
You're wanting them to regulate your emotions.
, you want them to be your emotional support animal and to tell you
it's going to be okay, mom.
And that's very
survival depends on it.
And they are by definition, more emotionally immature and you should be the
bigger, stronger, more put together one.
Oh, yeah, I guess we both get our backs up.
I know.
Yeah.
Because even if the person's already doing that.
And you're trying to bring awareness to them, then I get
nothing but the yeah, buts.
Oh, well, yeah, but.
They ask, yeah, but.
And I think, okay, go talk about that with your therapist and tell
your kids that mom and dad love you and you're going to be okay,
and the part about that too.
I, okay.
Can I just spit something out and I can even edit this out, but it's like, I'm
so curious about your, your thoughts.
Cause this has just came to me the last few days, but so helping people navigate
that divorce, people want to do co parenting, , you would think that this
would not be such a surprise, but the lack of communication that got them to the
point where now they're , they're getting a divorce, but now they're saying, but
we want to do what's best for the kids.
Let's learn how to co parent.
But then they can't communicate.
That's exactly what got them in this space.
You know, I've been more familiar with the concept of parallel parenting,
which I think is fascinating.
But I don't know.
Have you worked with much of that?
I don't see couples, but I will say in my divorce, I refuse to say
anything negative about my ex husband.
He's a pretty nice guy too.
That is not fair to my children.
And I don't talk negatively . About him to them.
And not like I'm some paragon of virtue, but not at all, but I felt so strongly
about that, that is unfair to them.
I chose him.
I had them with him.
. So I have to take the hit.
I have to find my peers or my therapy,
, okay, Catherine,
, I'm going to tell everyone in the world to buy your book as much as I can, but
now it's all of a sudden I, and I even told you before we jumped on, you already
have to come back cause I love your book.
. So when people are as a couples therapist working with this population
with the, and I usually call it a, and I'll go very gender biased right
now, because the majority of people.
That I work with the man is the more narcissistic or emotionally mature and
again, I work with plenty of where the guy is in a relationship with a
woman who's more emotionally immature and narcissistic, but I usually call
the other one the pathologically kind.
So they've been kind to the point where it is a problem.
And so then those two together.
And so when that divorce is occurring and now you've got a, let's say a 16
year old or we've got a kid in the middle and then they are disappointed
because let's just say dad forgot to pick him up , on his weekend.
And then mom says, Oh, it's okay, I'm sure he loves you and he
maybe is just has a lot going on.
But the 16 year old that expressed her frustration.
And so then I'm, I sold on what you're saying.
I'm not, I don't want to throw him under the bus, but then I've been
working a little bit more with the, but I do want to validate her feelings.
Yes.
Hey, that sounds hard.
Tell me what that's like.
I've felt that as well.
, and so we're having a shared experience, but I, I have not been through it.
So there's this part of me that would love to get your opinion on something
like that so I can validate her without throwing Them under the bus and I wonder
is that is there just a fine line there
I would say I know from somebody who Thought I was doing good when
I would try and soothe my children.
However, I would argue it's easy that Woman that client might be depriving
their child of their own natural reaction So sometimes when you try to
sue them and say, something's okay, you can't, it's confusing because say,
if dad doesn't come through to like step so much of what, the right thing
to do is restraint and to stay curious to say, what was that like for you?
Yes.
Not egg on.
Yeah.
He's a terrible person.
Well, let me tell you about the times he forgot me.
You don't want to go there, but also you don't want to say that's okay.
I know he loves you.
Cause it.
Sure as hell didn't feel like love.
So then that kid is going to go looking for love in all the wrong places.
That's a good point.
what you model and what you say, they're taking in mostly as truth.
And then they get if they feel left.
What do they do with that feeling, if mom's saying he's a good
guy, that's really confusing.
That's absolutely.
And so, and because then they are saying, okay, well, I don't think he
is, but that must mean again, I, my emotions and feelings must be wrong.
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
back to the trap.
We've got good enough trap guilt trap.
And this is the next one.
I'm very curious because this is one that I have potentially
felt in my own life at times.
Are we talking to self doubt trap?
Okay.
, , I talk about it because when we internalize a parent, which we all do,
so for a daughter, her mother , can become her internal critic, the mom
voice in her head, and it can come from her mother's fears for her.
That's real, but also, if the mom's very insecure and wants a daughter
to make all the right decisions and becomes very neurotic and anxious and
is constantly espousing fears or what's going to happen, what's going to happen.
And then the daughter integrates that.
And so she has that self doubt.
She gets further and further away from her own sense of self, like
trusting herself in the somatic way.
And more externalized, this happens all in all the good daughter syndrome
is this externalization, this outsourcing of your trust and of
your self esteem to another person.
Right?
Yeah.
So you, it's the daughter when she second guesses herself, she can't make a decision
also because she's been told mistakes.
are terrible.
mom needs to be a good mom that her daughter can never make mistakes or show
any flaw or any crack instead of, the good enough parent says, well, I, feel great
and happy for you and you're doing well.
And you know what?
Your mistakes aren't the end of the world.
Yeah.
We all, you know, like lose the game sometime and we learn
from both and they're yours.
They're not my mistakes or my accomplishments.
They're really
yours.
that's key.
And I like what you're talking about.
, that self doubt when I was reading that and I think where I immediately
internalized it myself was realizing how often I needed external validation.
And how, and how much that is, it's so fascinating again, Catherine, I want you
to poke holes of any of these things, but it fascinates me , and sometimes I
like slowing things down, when you review the game film, and if I am been thinking
about something and it's something I really want to do, I've probably
been thinking about it for a while.
I've been dreaming about it, hoping about it, reading about it.
I've got an idea about it.
And now I say.
Hey, what do you think about me doing this?
And I hand that over to somebody that has no idea what it feels like to be me.
And so I'm telling them, Hey, on this very brief moment, spur of the moment,
something I've been thinking about for a long time, that's important to me.
What do you think?
And then if they're like, I don't think it's a good idea.
Oh man.
Okay.
I thought it was
right.
And so that externalizing or what you're saying, you're
handing that over to somebody.
Yeah.
And that's, it's it's almost the point where I think, the pendulum swing concept
of now I almost feel like I'm not telling anybody anything, which is probably not.
You can
get to that, get to that place.
And you know, I think again, this is gender, but that men are allowed,
the culture allows them to do that.
Oh, that's yes.
Okay.
More
easily.
Okay.
And again, if it's your parent, she's kept you safe.
You've learned right from wrong, pretty much throughout development.
So that's that same person.
It's hard to or not want to run everything by.
That's what I hear a lot.
Yeah.
Just run everything by their moms.
And it's like, you know, at some point you just have to cut the cord, pull the
trigger, whatever the analogy is, and jump into life because it can be paralyzing.
You can have, , daughters who just spin their wheels and obsessive
compulsive and try to figure something out and never take the risk because
they really sense implicitly that they have a parent that needs them to
succeed so badly that they're carrying mom's sense of self on their back.
Yeah.
I it's so good because if they just do it and then if they're saying, Hey,
did I tell you about the thing I did?
And I've processed it for those sessions where, somebody's saying, man, my mom
was really, really disappointed that I didn't I didn't go to her first.
I didn't ask her for advice and I'll tell you, and this is again, the gender
difference, but I have a son, but it's, I think it's such a good example.
This is, he was on a basketball scholarship and then he came to my
wife and I, and just said, Hey I, I. I decided not to play basketball anymore
and I'm going to do this other thing.
And , it was so fascinating because I was learning more about differentiation
and I realized how much I liked saying he plays basketball, how much
I wanted to wear the gear and how much I wanted to go to the games.
And when my wife and I were talking about it later, it was really
interesting because we did notice that.
I think one of us said, why didn't he come discuss that with us?
And I thought to myself, oh, that's amazing that he didn't, because
he felt like he could make his decision and then bring it to us.
It was really wild to think of.
I, my immaturity was so close to bubbling over, but I know what you mean.
I
know what you mean.
Yeah.
I
had to restrain it there.
Yeah, but you restrained it.
Yeah.
And you, you could wit witness yourself.
I think that's so important to be able to, like, witness ourself, like the, our worst
self, like our best self and then our worst, what my worst self might've done.
That's for sure.
But also he didn't need permission from you guys.
No.
Which is great.
Yeah.
He's the youngest.
So I think, , , I would say, , jokingly say probably
the oldest would say, Oh really?
Like he didn't need permission.
You guys had to run everything by you guys, so they got
better as they got older.
Okay.
So I put that self doubt trap and then the.
The mixed message trap too.
These are so good.
. Talk about that one.
And this is, again, I'm going to say gender and may not apply, but so women
are socialized and mothers are socialized to say the right thing to be supportive.
And maybe not to be so direct, especially in the South, which is where I'm from.
Where are you from?
By the way, where's your accent?
Raleigh, North Carolina.
Okay I just, maybe I'll even cut this out, but I lived for five
years in Larenburg, North Carolina.
Oh, you did?
And I was born in East Tennessee.
When I moved out west.
Oh my goodness, you have
no accent.
Wow.
No,
when I moved out west, I did when I was 12 years old.
I got made fun of so I got rid of it.
I wish I still had it.
My parents still keep theirs.
Interesting.
, and then in church culture, my dad was a minister, my mother, a minister's wife.
So everything kind of flew under the radar.
So the difficult mother says, The overt thing, pretty socially acceptable, might
sound supportive, but maybe there's an eye roll, maybe there's a shoulder
shrug, maybe there's a side eye.
Good daughters will tell me they learn to read the subtext.
Don't pay attention to what mom says because it may not
be exactly what she means.
Wow.
I have to walk on eggshells.
I have to be a mind reader.
To stay out of trouble, walk on eggshells, not to upset
her, trigger her in some ways.
So they end up not being able to trust that anybody's direct with them and trying
to read and sometimes read incorrectly the subtext of maybe their boss or
their partner or their girlfriends.
It's it's can get you all up in your head as young people say these days.
Overthinking things.
But that's probably the most unconscious and implied.
Yeah.
Of the three traps of the four traps, one being never good enough,
that's usually the overt criticism.
The second one, the guilt trap, and then more internal self doubt.
And then that real splitting, because a lot of shame comes from that, you know,
if your mother looks at you like that.
Yeah.
And I've done something wrong.
Are you sure you want to . I'm sure you've seen all these
expressions with Southern women.
Sitcoms are made of them, right?
Yes.
And it is interesting.
In my couple's work, I have these four pillars of a connected
conversation, but one of them is you can't tell the other person they're
wrong or I don't believe them.
Even if you do think they're wrong and you don't believe them, because at that
point we got to get to my next pillar, which is questions before comments.
So curiosity, because if you immediately say that's ridiculous, I didn't say that
now we're going to go out in the weeds.
But I only say that because it's really fascinating when someone will
then learn that they're not going to say that isn't what happened or
I don't, because they'll know that, okay, that's where that person's coming
from, then that helps me stay present.
But the eye rolls, what you said, I'd laugh there where you said the side eyes,
the size, the, that is a whole talent.
And for some people.
, it's funny because I can see what somebody's origin or family of origin
look like because for some they don't even pick up on those of their partner.
But for others, they're like did you see him that he, and the guy's
like, I didn't, I didn't do anything.
You know, I just I just kind of looked over at you and I've went and you just
helped me connect some dots there where if that person grew up in a home where
that's funny, that, that was a huge thing, then she's probably far more sensitive to
just a, a audible sigh or, uh, yes, yes.
And she can
just read it to, it's well, we didn't speak that language at home.
We spoke the language of subtext and mind reading.
What we say is not really what we meant, but what you're supposed
to get from what I've said.
Oh, that is so tough.
again, I'm just enjoying having a conversation with you here.
This is interesting.
I had a client who's.
Going through a divorce or about to go through a divorce and and her mom said,
Hey, can I finally tell you how I feel?
And it was really fascinating.
The client and I broke this down because the client said that my
parents have always been really good because they haven't picked a side.
And I've got some episodes early on and waking up the narcissism where
I call out a Switzerland friend, the person that's, Hey, I don't want to
jump in the middle, but then Yeah.
Yeah.
They're not comfortable enough to express their real opinion because they're
worried that someone will get angry.
And so when this person's mom finally said, I've watched you be invalidated for
years and that's really broken my heart.
The client they had mixed emotions.
One was, oh my gosh, I feel so validated, but another was, that
would have been nice to know.
But now I did say, would you have, five years ago, would you have listened
if your mom would have said it?
And then they said, probably not.
I probably would've said, you know, you don't understand.
That being direct is like a fascinating concept.
Yeah.
I don't think men are socialized to value directness.
Don't you for the most part?
I know this is where okay Tell me if you run into this gathering my I work
with this population far too much so what you just said is true, but my
brain immediately goes to the direct examples of the narcissistic person
Where you know, yeah, they're being mean.
We're like, I'm just being honest, you know, it's kind of being a jerk.
Yeah.
Right.
That's true.
I think so.
Yes, that does not give you a free pass to be a jerk.
. Yeah.
And I guess it just shows why the relationships can be such
a. Such a wonderful minefield of
Yes.
Hey, we're gonna run out of time today.
I'm going to have you on eight more times, but what else do people need to
know about the good daughter syndrome?
Help me.
Cause so many people are going to, I think, identify with this and I
really definitely go take your quiz.
Cause that was, I almost recorded as I took it.
Okay.
Is that the place?
Okay.
That's a place to start to see if you resonate as you've experienced
the questions get your mind turning.
And if you just Google the good daughter syndrome quiz.
You will find me.
I'm Catherine Fabrizio, but that's less important than the phrase,
the good daughter syndrome.
Yeah.
So if you're like, yeah, this could be me and it's on a continuum of
course, like so many things are.
What I thought was really interesting too, is I took it the way.
Oh, and I also have I was gonna say crippling, but I'm
going to say wonderful ADHD.
So I read the first one and I was like, Oh my gosh.
And I thought that's the one.
And then I would jump to the next question.
And then I saw that, Oh, it's not just a black or white.
You've got, I love the questions.
They're nuanced.
So then I had to go back to the first one and I wasn't, Oh yeah, I
didn't really exactly identify here.
So it's a very good.
Way to self defense.
. Thank you.
Yeah.
I tried.
Well, particularly with mother daughter stuff, I think the truth is in the nuance.
It's.
If something is, as, you know, a regular pattern we all can act
badly as parents or be overbearing or intrusive and give unwanted
advice or bust through boundaries.
So it's really more a thing of, is it all the time and pervasive?
And can you make no strides to change it or.
Is it somewhere in the middle?
. Catherine, can I ask you one more question?
Because there, there is a quote that I also pulled out here
and I thought this is powerful.
The impossible choice in the good daughter trap your face with an impossible choice.
Be the, I think this was off your Instagram be the good daughter
and lose yourself, but stand up for yourself and lose mom.
What do you see is the work that It needs to happen to get to that point where
someone's even able to make that choice.
I think awareness is such a huge part of it.
I know that's an overused word, but it comes out of an enmeshed
relationship, again, undifferentiated.
So you can have the feeling, emphasis on feeling when you differentiate.
You can feel like it's a zero sum game that either mom is relevant or you're
relevant, but when you differentiate, she can have her reactions, her opinions.
She can go on being who she's always been.
Frankly, that always surprises daughters.
It's not going to destroy her.
Her defenses are going to take care of her.
They have up until you were born.
She's not gonna like not having your supply.
Yes,
but You can become your your own person It doesn't have to be one person is
defeated and the other person wins at the expense of somebody else But if you
recognize because of the Developmental differential that she has had power over
you For so long, and now you have more power than, you know, that's another
message you have, because now as an adult, you really control, you get to
say how much access she has to you, how much time you all spend together.
And then, of course, there's the grandchildren, but even,
not even bringing that up.
But when you wake up of your awakening, when you wake up and realize you've been
ceding your sovereignty to somebody else.
It was never appropriate, but certainly way past the developmental
stage when you should be your own person, make your decisions right
or wrong, have your own life.
That's, it's incredibly empowering.
Yeah.
Catherine, that's beautifully said.
That is that hand in that sovereignty over.
And I like what you're saying is we're talking about, it's not a zero sum
game, but I think you laid out that so well, where it feels that way and
we don't know what we don't know.
And it does.
The uncertainty of that we're so afraid of uncertainty, but then it's, there's
this I love this quote, this he's a, Millie's a psychedelic researcher,
Terrence McKenna, but he talks about, jumping out into the great abyss and
finding out that it's a feather bed.
And I just like that concept because so often we are so afraid of
jumping out into that great abyss.
And so we'll just stay attached to the person that will tell us what to
do and how to feel even though it, we feel like we're betraying ourselves.
So I love the way you put that.
That was beautiful.
Catherine, we will, I will have you on.
I would love to do this again.
And right, and then so the book is The Good Daughter Syndrome,
and I'll have links everywhere.
And then if for listeners, if you are I have my private women's Facebook
group, which I will hopefully get Catherine to come jump in and say hi
to there as well for people that are in, in, in narcissistic relationships.
And then Catherine, thanks so much.
I'll have all the links to everything in the show notes, but
I really appreciate you being here.
Well, thank you for your work and your thoughtful questions,
discussion of which many more to come.
I hope.
Okay.
We'll talk again soon.