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This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome  to, , waking Up to Narcissism.

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Also, this is definitely, this episode
is gonna play on a virtual couch feed

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as well because , this is a big one.

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This is something I've been working
on for a very long time because we

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are gonna talk about, one of the
subjects I think does not get enough

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air, and that is emotional immaturity.

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I cannot wait to take you on the
journey that we're gonna go on today.

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But first, before we dive into today's
episode, I wanna share an email that,

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, that is gonna act as today's muse
because this person's questions are so

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perfect that they could have scripted
today's topic themselves, which I

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think that you'll see they kind of do.

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We'll call the person.

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Mark.

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Mark says, Hey, Tony.

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I've been a devoted listener of both
the virtual couch and waking up to

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narcissism for years now, literally
listening while folding laundry,

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commuting, and once embarrassingly in
a Sunday school class at church, when I

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honestly don't know what happened, but
my earbud disconnected and thankfully.

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You weren't talking about your
pornography recovery program for the

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full 30 seconds that you were loudly
echoing in the church classroom while I

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tried to figure out what was happening.

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My wife also listens to you from
time to time, but she definitely does

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not like it when I say to her things
like, tell me more about that, or

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I didn't know what I didn't know.

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And that's a you thing.

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Which I now understand
is actually a me thing.

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First, I wanna thank you for consistently
clarifying the difference between

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having narcissistic personality
disorder and simply displaying

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emotionally immature behaviors.

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That distinction has been
genuinely life changing for me.

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When I first started learning
about narcissism, I went through

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the classic phase of, oh no, is
everybody in my life a narcissist?

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Am I a narcissist?

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And I agree, Katz are narcissists.

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If anybody has listened for
a while, I do maintain that.

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I do think that they are, but your podcast
have helped me understand the much more

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common reality of emotional immaturity
that it sounds like we all navigate.

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Which brings me to my question.

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I'm getting better at recognizing
emotional immaturity in others,

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and he says, cough, cough, my wife.

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But how do I honestly assess where
I'm being emotionally immature?

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Myself.

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I caught myself last week giving my wife
the silent treatment after an argument

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. He said, I had this moment of, oh wait, am
I being the emotionally immature one here?

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And he said it was a
strange mirror to look into.

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You mentioned several times that
you believe we're all emotionally

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immature until we're not.

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And he said, that really
resonates with me.

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But I'm curious, are some people
naturally more emotionally mature from

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the start, or do we all begin at roughly
the same place and develop at different

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rates depending on our experiences?

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And what does the journey from
immaturity to maturity actually

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look like in everyday life?

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He said, I'm realizing that while
I can intellectually understand

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concepts like differentiation and
curiosity and self confrontation in

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practice, I still find myself reacting
in ways that seem pretty childish.

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He said, thanks for creating
content that makes me uncomfortable,

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self-aware in the best possible way.

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Mark.

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So thank you, mark.

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First of all, I'm sorry to hear about
the whole church thing because yeah,

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I've had my headphones connected various
places or locations, and I can even tell

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you they're the most amazing stories
as a therapist of how people, I wanna

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say, get caught or get in trouble.

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And one of those is where someone's
Bluetooth connects to something

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that is that, that is not.

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Something that they are proud of
or that they are not hoping that

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their spouse or their family hears.

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And the whole, everything is a me thing.

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Definitely implies that
everything else is a you thing.

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I get that.

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But that is definitely not
the point of that concept.

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What he actually did is take a
brand new shiny tool and then use

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it as a weapon against his wife.

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But something tells me that there's
probably an origin story there.

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Did you see your dad do that?

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Or maybe it's just what makes sense to
you because you've been doing things like

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that since you were, .  A small child.

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And we'll actually talk about that
a lot, a bit later in the show . But

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your questions Mark, , they are
brilliant and they get right to the

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heart of what I have been wanting to
explore for a long time in detail.

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And it's that moment of
self-awareness the weight.

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Am I being the emotionally
immature one here?

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'cause that's actually the first sign of.

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Growing emotional maturity and I would
like to put a counter on the board for the

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number of times that I'm gonna say things
like we are all emotionally mature until

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we can recognize what that looks like.

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And I think it really does help
to understand a good origin story

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because  this whole journey, from
emotional immaturity to emotional

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maturity is definitely not linear.

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It's not a one size fits all.

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It's more like this relay race where
we're constantly passing the baton

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between different versions of ourselves
and every now and again, we might have

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a much more mature version of ourselves.

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. That takes the baton and is running around
the track, but then they hand it off to

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someone that now we're at a new position
in the race, we are now fatigued, or we

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are, uh, calorie depleted and an immature
version of us might show up because as

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we go through life and we have different
experiences and our relationships and just

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in life in general, then it is going to.

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Provide us with a chance to recognize
these new, , areas of immaturity or

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it's gonna bring up some old areas
of, of emotional immaturity as well.

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Today, inspired by Mark's excellent
questions, we're gonna explore  ,  an

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emotional maturity spectrum, and
we're gonna go  from narcissistic

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personality disorder all the way to.

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The other side of that, which is more
emotional wisdom, which may come with a

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full ponytail, a yoga mat, a gee, I don't
know if they wear those outside of the

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martial arts but some sort of comfortable
clothing that shows that I am, I have

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become, I have arrived and that is.

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On this way to full emotional maturity.

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But I think most of us hang out
somewhere in this messy middle.

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, hopefully continuing to move along the
spectrum toward more emotionally mature.

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And I  am gonna spend a lot of time
today exploring why certain childhood

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behaviors I. That helped us survive back
when we were kids, that those actually

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create havoc in our adult relationships.

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, I have recently been taking a couple's
training from a psychologist named

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Terry Real, and I've heard a  colleague
of mine, Jennifer Finlays and Fife

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mentioned Terry Reel's work on occasion.

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When she has quoted him,
I've loved his work.

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So I finally Googled him  , and
then all of a sudden I am

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inundated with ads for his stuff.

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, quotes of his, . Popping up everywhere.

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It was almost as if my phone or
my computer was listening to me.

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I'm now inserting a dramatic
pause because I believe it is.

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, I don't call me paranoid.

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Anyway, we'll explore Terry reel's
game changing insight that he says,

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what was adaptive and childhood then
becomes maladaptive and adulthood.

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And and that will truly be one of
those things that once you see it, you

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can no longer unsee it in a good way.

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, I promise, I'm gonna create a,   practical
translation guide to help you recognize

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when you are responding as someone who is
emotionally mature, when it is coming from

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your inner child, how to gently then pass
that baton to your adult self because.

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Take for example, that silent
treatment that Mark mentioned.

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That's not a character flaw, , and I think
this is such a good way to look at it.

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That is his inner child doing exactly
what worked when you were little.

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I'm gonna, I'm gonna go silent.

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I'm gonna sit this one out, let
the storm pass, and I survived.

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Our job is not to shame that
part of us, but it's honestly to

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thank it for getting us this far.

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But now time to let the big kids take over
time to let our adult self take the wheel.

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Grab your metaphorical running shoes
because we were about to explore this

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relay race of emotional development
that every single one of us is running.

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I promise you that whether
we realize it or not.

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Trust me, understanding where you are
on that track it can honestly transform

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every relationship in your life and
primarily that one with yourself.

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So let's get started.

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Hey, everybody.

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Okay.

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. I am your host, Tony Overbay.

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I am a licensed marriage and family
therapist, a certified mindful habit

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coach, , writer, speaker, , and , if
you have not followed me on social

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media, I would be very honored.

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Virtual couch on Instagram and
at virtual couch on TikTok.

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And my daughter Sydnee and I, my daughter
Mac and I, were doing more and more live

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question and answers on those platforms.

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. I would love for you to join us there.

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It's one of my highlights of the week
and, , the magnetic marriage course.

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It is being revamped, it is being
updated, it's being refiled, and I am

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so excited about it and I would love
it if you would join my newsletter.

00:08:04.325 --> 00:08:07.715
So go to tony over bay.com
and sign up for the newsletter

00:08:08.075 --> 00:08:11.855
, or you can email me through the
contact form or reach out to me

00:08:11.855 --> 00:08:14.855
at contact@tonyoverbay.com and let
me know that you're interested.

00:08:15.035 --> 00:08:17.345
As a matter of fact, I have
put together a four pillar.

00:08:18.065 --> 00:08:21.665
Worksheet a four pillar document
that I am more than happy to hand

00:08:21.665 --> 00:08:22.835
out to you if you reach out to me.

00:08:23.245 --> 00:08:26.995
, and if you are struggling with turning
to an unhealthy coping mechanism,

00:08:27.565 --> 00:08:32.615
, that, , rhymes with corn nography,
then go to path back recovery.com.

00:08:32.615 --> 00:08:35.555
Reach out to me, I'll give you a
coupon code if that would help, because

00:08:35.555 --> 00:08:37.295
that is honestly changing lives.

00:08:37.475 --> 00:08:41.435
It's a, it's a. Wonderful course
that self-guided, self-paced, but

00:08:41.435 --> 00:08:45.125
I have a, a weekly men's group
call for that that I think is so,

00:08:45.155 --> 00:08:47.180
so beneficial and helpful, and.

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Today I'm gonna talk a lot about
emotional immaturity, and this is , my

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passion is pointing out where we are all
emotionally immature and what it looks

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like to become more emotionally mature.

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So if you hear things in this content
today that you like, that you're

00:09:02.300 --> 00:09:06.530
interested in, reach out to me because
I'm starting a new men's group called

00:09:06.530 --> 00:09:10.940
The Emotional Architects, and I would
love to have you be a part of it.

00:09:10.970 --> 00:09:13.370
It's gonna be a couple
of group calls a month.

00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:15.420
It'll be a, a fairly low cost.

00:09:15.420 --> 00:09:16.680
The calls will be archived.

00:09:16.680 --> 00:09:19.550
You'll have access
to, , the q and as with me.

00:09:19.850 --> 00:09:22.580
And, , , we're gonna become more
emotionally mature and change

00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:23.510
the world in the meantime.

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Show up better in your relationships
as a parent, just in life in general.

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But let's get to the show.

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My podcast, waking Up to Narcissism
has been built on a foundation

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that narcissistic personality
disorder is only seen in a very

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small percentage of the population.

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And I have some episodes where
I really go into detail about

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the research around that.

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But if we just start grounding ourselves
in some facts, narcissistic personality

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disorder, depending on the study.

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And and I will always give a little
bit of feedback from this when I post

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something about this, but it affects
approximately anywhere from some believe

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two to 6% of the general population.

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Now the diagnostic criteria and the
DSM five, which is the Diagnostic and

00:10:00.055 --> 00:10:05.365
Statistical Manual that therapists use for
diagnosis requires a pervasive pattern of

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grandiosity, a need for admiration, and a
lack of empathy with at least five outta

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these nine specific symptoms present.

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Which the diagnosis concept in
general can be pretty fascinating

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because let's say that somebody
has four and a half outta those.

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Nine symptoms then do they get to say,
it turns out I'm not a narcissist.

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Matter of fact, I'm just really
good at not being a narcissist,

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which is a little bit narcissistic.

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But I think what makes today's
conversation so powerful is recognizing

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that there are behaviors that  resemble
narcissism, and they actually can be

00:10:35.430 --> 00:10:37.230
expressions of emotional immaturity.

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These narcissistic traits or states or
tendencies that I believe exist on a

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spectrum that we all navigate because I
will maintain, I think I said earlier,

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let's put a counter on for how many times
I mentioned that we are essentially all

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emotionally immature until we're not.

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Meaning that as we go through life and
we're learning and growing and interacting

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with other people, the hope would be that
we start to show up as more mature adults.

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, so let's talk about the narcissistic
spectrum, the spectrum from narcissistic

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personality disorder all the way through.

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To emotional maturity.

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To do so, I would like to present to you
a narrative called Dinner with Daniel.

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Imagine that you are meeting a friend's
new partner for the very first time.

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His name is Daniel.

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From the moment you walk into
the restaurant, Daniel takes

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up all the space in the room.

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He's dressed very sharply, noticeably
expensive clothing, and before anybody

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can get a word out  Daniel launches
into a monologue about how his

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company would not survive without him.

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He name drops casually.

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Oh, that, that investor, yeah.

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We had lunch last week and he frequently
references very high status people or.

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Exotic places.

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Now, when your friend starts to
tell a story about their recent

00:11:47.053 --> 00:11:50.773
promotion at work, Daniel interrupts
staring the conversation back to him.

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That's cute.

00:11:51.823 --> 00:11:55.753
He says, you know, when I was your
age, I had already had two promotions

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and they were much bigger than that.

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He doesn't smile because he really
does mean that throughout the night.

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He just subtly puts your friend down.

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She's, she's terrible with directions.

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He says with a laugh.

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When they try to describe
a trip that they took.

00:12:07.843 --> 00:12:08.443
Don't worry though.

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I handle the itinerary.

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I always have to.

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And he says it like it's a joke.

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She sure looks uncomfortable.

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And then when she finally confronts him
very gently, very softly about cutting

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her off and he, she just wants to try to
finish her story, he responds very flatly.

00:12:23.663 --> 00:12:25.193
Look, who's being pretty sensitive here?

00:12:25.393 --> 00:12:27.583
I think people really like
how direct I am, right?

00:12:27.583 --> 00:12:29.743
Everybody, what are they supposed to say?

00:12:29.863 --> 00:12:32.683
So he just says back to her, you
know, you should really toughen up.

00:12:33.418 --> 00:12:36.508
Now one of my personal pet peeves.

00:12:37.018 --> 00:12:39.688
Later the waiter accidentally
forgets an appetizer.

00:12:39.868 --> 00:12:42.718
Daniel turns extremely cold, unbelievable.

00:12:42.748 --> 00:12:45.718
He mutters, you know what you'd think
with the money that I'm gonna pay here,

00:12:45.718 --> 00:12:47.238
that they would treat us better than this.

00:12:47.238 --> 00:12:50.418
I should have known to go to
somewhere else, not this place.

00:12:50.418 --> 00:12:55.093
And he demands to see a manager and
everyone is uncomfortable and he insists.

00:12:55.833 --> 00:12:58.143
That a free dessert is the
very least that they can do.

00:12:58.143 --> 00:12:59.223
He comes here all the time.

00:12:59.973 --> 00:13:02.913
When the manager finally offers
it, he doesn't say a word.

00:13:03.033 --> 00:13:06.003
He doesn't thank 'em, and he basically
just waves 'em off, muttering.

00:13:06.273 --> 00:13:09.783
Okay, what were they, what else would
they, what else were they supposed to do?

00:13:09.783 --> 00:13:13.593
That's the right thing to do After
dinner, he insists that you all take

00:13:13.593 --> 00:13:17.373
a selfie positions himself naturally
in the center, takes several shots,

00:13:17.373 --> 00:13:20.283
inspecting each one, and my jawline
looks kind of weird in this one.

00:13:20.283 --> 00:13:21.033
He said, let's do it again.

00:13:21.513 --> 00:13:24.873
And again, and someone else finally
says, Hey, can I take a look?

00:13:24.873 --> 00:13:26.043
And he says, you, you look fine.

00:13:26.943 --> 00:13:30.213
And then later he posts one
to Instagram with a caption

00:13:30.633 --> 00:13:32.163
keeping company with greatness.

00:13:32.643 --> 00:13:34.143
No mention of your names.

00:13:34.353 --> 00:13:37.593
Apparently he's the greatness
And the car ride home.

00:13:37.593 --> 00:13:38.793
Your friend admits man.

00:13:38.793 --> 00:13:39.693
He's a lot.

00:13:40.033 --> 00:13:43.163
But he is really confident and
he says, I just would never

00:13:43.163 --> 00:13:44.483
understand the pressure he is under.

00:13:44.483 --> 00:13:46.013
So I mean, I guess he's right.

00:13:46.928 --> 00:13:49.478
So let's break down the
narcissistic traits in this

00:13:49.478 --> 00:13:51.188
narrative of DI dinner with Daniel.

00:13:51.818 --> 00:13:55.688
It is grandiosity at its best
and a very, very strong sense of

00:13:55.688 --> 00:13:59.018
superiority because Daniel talks
extensively about his achievements.

00:13:59.018 --> 00:14:01.508
He exaggerates his status, he
dominates the conversation.

00:14:01.928 --> 00:14:04.688
Uh, he has a very inflated
view of how important he is.

00:14:05.053 --> 00:14:08.743
And he lacks empathy when his partner
tries to express her discomfort.

00:14:08.743 --> 00:14:09.763
Daniel minimizes it.

00:14:09.883 --> 00:14:10.633
It's not a big deal.

00:14:10.633 --> 00:14:13.723
He invalidates her and he
turns the issue back on her.

00:14:14.293 --> 00:14:18.973
He has a need for excessive admiration
because this guy thrives on attention.

00:14:19.363 --> 00:14:24.043
He curates his image so meticulously
from the clothes he wears the photo

00:14:24.043 --> 00:14:28.393
taking, and he expects others to
reflect his sense of greatness.

00:14:28.673 --> 00:14:30.323
Man, how lucky they are to be with him.

00:14:30.653 --> 00:14:31.943
Exploitive behavior.

00:14:32.303 --> 00:14:34.283
He takes over plans, he
takes over discussions.

00:14:34.283 --> 00:14:37.073
He certainly takes over conversations
without considering other people's needs.

00:14:37.413 --> 00:14:41.283
His partner basically is like a prop and
he has a sense of entitlement that when

00:14:41.283 --> 00:14:42.933
the waiter makes a mistake, he overreacts.

00:14:42.933 --> 00:14:45.213
He demands compensation
because he is believed.

00:14:45.503 --> 00:14:50.243
He's very special and he's owed special
treatment, which it just is ance.

00:14:50.423 --> 00:14:51.803
He talks down to others.

00:14:51.803 --> 00:14:55.793
He dismisses their opinions or their
experiences unless they revolve

00:14:55.793 --> 00:14:59.603
around him or they benefit him
and enmeshment with his own image.

00:14:59.603 --> 00:15:03.833
Everything he does from his storytelling
to Instagram captions is carefully

00:15:03.833 --> 00:15:08.543
crafted because he is gonna maintain
this public image, and to him, everyone

00:15:08.543 --> 00:15:11.873
around him is very fortunate that
he is even sharing that with him.

00:15:12.983 --> 00:15:17.453
This is the kind of example I think shows
how a narcissistic personality disorder

00:15:17.453 --> 00:15:21.923
isn't just about someone being confident
or that somebody's being difficult.

00:15:22.613 --> 00:15:23.813
It's a personality disorder.

00:15:23.813 --> 00:15:27.533
It's a consistent pattern of behavior
that is rooted in things like entitlement,

00:15:27.533 --> 00:15:30.963
lack of empathy, and overwhelming
need to be admired seen as superior,

00:15:30.963 --> 00:15:32.283
always taken that one up position.

00:15:32.436 --> 00:15:36.186
This is the beginning of the spectrum
from full blown narcissistic personality

00:15:36.186 --> 00:15:38.231
disorder to we'll just say true emulsion.

00:15:38.871 --> 00:15:40.791
Two true emotional maturity.

00:15:41.591 --> 00:15:46.121
So let's stay with Daniel and let's
walk him down the spectrum and

00:15:46.361 --> 00:15:47.861
and we'll say there's four stages.

00:15:47.861 --> 00:15:51.851
So stage one, the one we just covered,
narcissistic personality disorder.

00:15:52.226 --> 00:15:54.956
This is Daniel the centerpiece again.

00:15:54.956 --> 00:15:57.956
He dominates attention, lacks
empathy, constantly seeks admiration,

00:15:57.956 --> 00:16:00.716
dismisses others' feelings, expects
special treatment, manipulates and

00:16:00.716 --> 00:16:04.916
invalidates all those around him
with zero awareness, no remorse.

00:16:04.976 --> 00:16:09.266
So we got these key traits, grandiosity,
entitlement, lack of empathy, emotional

00:16:09.266 --> 00:16:12.786
invalidation, superficial charm,
exploitation of others maintaining

00:16:12.791 --> 00:16:14.981
this, this particular self-image.

00:16:15.781 --> 00:16:16.621
Step down.

00:16:17.281 --> 00:16:21.511
Stage two, we'll call it on the spectrum,
is extremely emotionally immature.

00:16:21.511 --> 00:16:23.221
We'll call this one Daniel the defensive.

00:16:23.701 --> 00:16:27.421
Now, Daniel no longer checks every
diagnostic box for narcissistic

00:16:27.421 --> 00:16:29.131
personality disorder, but he struggles.

00:16:29.161 --> 00:16:32.551
He struggles deeply with emotional
awareness and connection.

00:16:32.701 --> 00:16:35.186
He's not as, as overtly arrogant, but he.

00:16:35.686 --> 00:16:39.586
Reacts defensively to discomfort,
often becoming very passive

00:16:39.586 --> 00:16:41.386
aggressive or blaming others.

00:16:41.806 --> 00:16:43.996
So now let's go back to a dinner scenario.

00:16:43.996 --> 00:16:46.816
So during a dinner, Daniel still
talks a lot about himself, but now

00:16:46.816 --> 00:16:48.076
it is laced with his insecurity.

00:16:48.076 --> 00:16:51.046
'cause he might say things like, you
know, nobody even understands what I do.

00:16:51.046 --> 00:16:53.266
It's really hard to be the
smartest one in the room.

00:16:53.596 --> 00:16:56.476
'cause if his partner challenges him,
he might side dramatically or then

00:16:56.476 --> 00:16:58.246
shut down with, here we go again.

00:16:58.306 --> 00:17:00.346
You'll always find a way
to make me the bad guy.

00:17:00.991 --> 00:17:03.481
Now he still might snap at the
waiter for a mistake, but instead of

00:17:03.481 --> 00:17:06.421
demanding dessert, he sulks and he
makes snide comments under his breath.

00:17:06.721 --> 00:17:09.751
He sees himself as a victim of
other people's incompetence.

00:17:09.961 --> 00:17:13.561
That victim still is taking a one-up
position because it is a woe as me.

00:17:13.561 --> 00:17:15.901
Look at me, how do I even deal with this?

00:17:16.471 --> 00:17:18.451
So the key traits there,
defensive posture.

00:17:18.521 --> 00:17:22.541
Emotional reactivity, victim
mentality, blame shifting, very low

00:17:22.541 --> 00:17:24.371
accountability, poor empathy skills.

00:17:24.701 --> 00:17:28.841
He doesn't seek admiration as
overtly, but he is terrified

00:17:28.931 --> 00:17:30.521
of being wrong or vulnerable.

00:17:30.581 --> 00:17:33.851
Here's where we've got this little kid
that is in adult close that is just

00:17:34.001 --> 00:17:36.941
trying to show up in a way that will
get their needs met or have all eyes

00:17:36.941 --> 00:17:38.786
or attention focused on them because.

00:17:39.256 --> 00:17:41.446
To that incredibly
emotionally immature person.

00:17:41.746 --> 00:17:44.266
They don't even know they exist unless
they're interacting with another person.

00:17:44.266 --> 00:17:47.086
And it can't be from a place of
genuine curiosity or vulnerability.

00:17:47.416 --> 00:17:52.276
It has to be from a place of, I need you
to know that I am the center of attention.

00:17:52.336 --> 00:17:56.686
I am in the one up position over you,
and you just need to bring something

00:17:56.686 --> 00:17:57.886
up to me and I can let you know.

00:17:58.461 --> 00:18:01.581
How you're wrong and I'm right, or I
can't even believe you said that based

00:18:01.581 --> 00:18:04.371
off of the way that I'm feeling or
the things that I know or I'm doing.

00:18:05.151 --> 00:18:06.471
So let's move on to stage three.

00:18:06.711 --> 00:18:08.691
This is just good old
emotional immaturity.

00:18:08.721 --> 00:18:10.041
This is Daniel the trying.

00:18:10.641 --> 00:18:12.651
Now Daniel's starting to
notice his own patterns.

00:18:12.651 --> 00:18:15.381
He's not always successful at emotional
regulation, but he is starting to show

00:18:15.381 --> 00:18:19.881
signs of growth and he interrupts far
less often and even catches himself when

00:18:19.881 --> 00:18:21.501
he starts to dominate the conversation.

00:18:21.801 --> 00:18:23.181
Let's go back to the dinner scenario.

00:18:23.721 --> 00:18:26.661
Daniel still shares a story about
work, but when his partner starts

00:18:26.661 --> 00:18:29.811
to talk, he pauses and he's like,
Hey, my bad, I got carried away.

00:18:29.871 --> 00:18:30.471
You go ahead.

00:18:31.131 --> 00:18:34.791
Now, it's still a little bit clunky
because he was going on, but it's there.

00:18:35.121 --> 00:18:38.091
And when she brings up an issue from
earlier, he does get a little bit

00:18:38.091 --> 00:18:42.561
defensive, but then he's able to take a
breath, have a pause, and he says, okay.

00:18:42.871 --> 00:18:44.546
Honestly I don't know if
I was listening as well.

00:18:44.546 --> 00:18:47.126
I, as I could have, I'll,
I can I can try that again.

00:18:47.176 --> 00:18:48.856
Thank you for bringing
that awareness to me.

00:18:49.156 --> 00:18:51.136
He might still occasionally
downplay emotions saying things

00:18:51.136 --> 00:18:53.956
like, I don't really understand
why that hurt your feelings.

00:18:53.986 --> 00:18:56.006
But I have to trust that it did.

00:18:56.786 --> 00:18:59.886
So it's imperfect
empathy, but it's sincere.

00:19:00.486 --> 00:19:02.706
So the key traits in this stage three.

00:19:03.066 --> 00:19:06.066
This is Daniel de trying
increasing self-awareness.

00:19:06.216 --> 00:19:08.256
He's beginning to know
what he did not know.

00:19:09.186 --> 00:19:11.706
There's still reactivity,
occasional defensiveness.

00:19:11.736 --> 00:19:13.206
There's some basic empathy.

00:19:13.626 --> 00:19:17.826
There's pretty clumsy accountability,
but he still has this growth mindset.

00:19:17.856 --> 00:19:19.896
I am on this path of
trying to figure it out.

00:19:20.391 --> 00:19:23.151
He's starting to see the relationship
and he's starting to understand that

00:19:23.151 --> 00:19:27.321
they are not about performance or
control, but it's more about presence.

00:19:27.321 --> 00:19:30.861
It's about trying to continue to
show up, and I may not always get it

00:19:30.861 --> 00:19:32.811
right, but I'm gonna continue to try.

00:19:33.651 --> 00:19:40.526
Now enter stage four of this, this
emotional, mature human being.

00:19:41.616 --> 00:19:45.306
Is as far off of the spectrum
of the narcissistic personality

00:19:45.306 --> 00:19:46.596
disordered person as can be.

00:19:46.836 --> 00:19:48.636
This is Daniel, the grounded.

00:19:49.266 --> 00:19:52.086
So this version of Daniel is
no longer seeking validation.

00:19:52.236 --> 00:19:54.096
He's not dodging vulnerability.

00:19:54.426 --> 00:19:55.866
He can sit with discomfort.

00:19:55.986 --> 00:19:59.676
He can own his own mistakes without
spiraling into shame or deflection, and

00:19:59.706 --> 00:20:03.756
he remains present even if he disagrees
or even if he feels misunderstood

00:20:04.266 --> 00:20:07.386
because Daniel knows who he is.

00:20:07.926 --> 00:20:09.696
He's okay with himself at dinner.

00:20:09.696 --> 00:20:13.536
Now, Daniel asks about other people
First, he listens with genuine

00:20:13.536 --> 00:20:16.716
curiosity, not asking someone a
question so that he can then get

00:20:16.716 --> 00:20:18.036
to whatever he wants to talk about.

00:20:18.546 --> 00:20:22.386
When his partner shares a, a differing
perspective, he says, you know what?

00:20:22.506 --> 00:20:23.466
Thank you for sharing that.

00:20:23.496 --> 00:20:25.716
I didn't even realize
that it landed that way.

00:20:26.196 --> 00:20:30.756
Hey, I'd like a do over, and if the
waiter makes a mistake, he is gracious.

00:20:30.756 --> 00:20:31.416
Hey, no worries.

00:20:31.416 --> 00:20:32.046
Take your time.

00:20:32.146 --> 00:20:32.776
We're all human.

00:20:32.806 --> 00:20:33.856
We're just doing our best.

00:20:34.516 --> 00:20:35.386
He doesn't need to be right.

00:20:36.076 --> 00:20:37.216
He doesn't need to impress.

00:20:37.516 --> 00:20:40.666
He is connected to himself
enough to show up for others.

00:20:40.726 --> 00:20:45.106
As cliched as it sounds, he loves
himself, so now he can love others.

00:20:45.136 --> 00:20:47.956
If you do not love yourself, then
you're trying to figure out how

00:20:47.956 --> 00:20:51.286
to get others to love you, and
if you have this narcissistic,

00:20:51.286 --> 00:20:55.846
grandiose version of yourself, you
don't care at all about others.

00:20:56.566 --> 00:20:59.866
So the key traits of this version
of Daniel emotional regulation.

00:21:00.226 --> 00:21:04.076
High empathy emotional
intelligence, emotional consistency,

00:21:04.526 --> 00:21:05.696
personal accountability.

00:21:05.726 --> 00:21:07.046
He's open to feedback.

00:21:07.076 --> 00:21:10.286
He has authentic humility,
and he is differentiated.

00:21:10.556 --> 00:21:12.446
He can hold on to his sense of self.

00:21:12.821 --> 00:21:14.351
While staying connected to others.

00:21:14.411 --> 00:21:17.801
As a matter of fact, when you get
really good at that concept of becoming

00:21:17.801 --> 00:21:22.901
differentiated, then you learn more about
yourself in the interaction with others.

00:21:22.961 --> 00:21:27.521
That is why we are in relationships
because I want to understand who I

00:21:27.521 --> 00:21:32.551
am and once I know who I am, man, I
can really, really want to know you

00:21:33.311 --> 00:21:34.571
and it doesn't have to be perfect.

00:21:35.021 --> 00:21:37.721
But if I'm not sure who I am, then
I'm gonna view a lot of the things

00:21:37.721 --> 00:21:41.321
that you say as if you are telling
me I am wrong and you are right.

00:21:41.831 --> 00:21:46.451
Then my immaturity will lash
back at you and say, oh no, you

00:21:46.451 --> 00:21:49.241
don't understand, or I can't even
believe you think that or, okay.

00:21:49.241 --> 00:21:54.601
Really that's what you think .  Emotional
maturity  level one   on one side we

00:21:54.601 --> 00:21:56.491
have narcissistic personality disorder.

00:21:57.601 --> 00:21:59.341
Controlling lacks empathy.

00:21:59.561 --> 00:22:01.391
Emotional impact on others is severe.

00:22:01.391 --> 00:22:02.501
It's often traumatic.

00:22:03.551 --> 00:22:09.821
And then if we move on to that, that
second becoming less narcissistic, but

00:22:09.821 --> 00:22:14.171
extremely emotionally immature, highly
reactive, deflects blame, operates

00:22:14.171 --> 00:22:15.461
really from fear and insecurity.

00:22:16.181 --> 00:22:20.321
And it is emotionally confusing and
inconsistent and unsafe to others.

00:22:21.131 --> 00:22:23.981
Now we're moving on to, we'll
call it that, stage three

00:22:23.981 --> 00:22:26.681
emotionally immature shows effort.

00:22:27.071 --> 00:22:29.591
Self-aware at times, but is inconsistent.

00:22:30.431 --> 00:22:34.241
But emotional growth is beginning
to become visible, but it is messy.

00:22:34.991 --> 00:22:40.151
And then the one that comes with the ghee
and the ponytail, the unicorn, the pot of

00:22:40.151 --> 00:22:43.511
gold, high emotional maturity centered.

00:22:44.201 --> 00:22:49.631
Grounded, empathetic, accountable,
curious, safe, and easy to

00:22:49.631 --> 00:22:51.131
connect with emotionally.

00:22:52.391 --> 00:22:54.521
So think of that spectrum.

00:22:54.551 --> 00:22:59.891
. It is beautifully complex to understand
where we land on the spectrum.

00:23:00.311 --> 00:23:02.321
Because I would like for you to
think of emotional development,

00:23:02.321 --> 00:23:05.951
less like a straight line and
more like a topographical map.

00:23:06.506 --> 00:23:08.636
Because it's gonna have
this developmental terrain.

00:23:08.786 --> 00:23:11.066
Those are our childhood experiences
because they've created these

00:23:11.066 --> 00:23:13.796
certain neural pathways that
become our default reactions.

00:23:14.486 --> 00:23:17.886
You can think of situational
weather because even the most mature

00:23:17.886 --> 00:23:21.696
person can regress when triggers
hit and when, especially when they

00:23:21.696 --> 00:23:23.166
hit certain attachment wounds.

00:23:23.721 --> 00:23:27.921
So the weather, it can be a good day
and all of a sudden in comes the storm

00:23:27.921 --> 00:23:33.411
clouds and it can dump and pour rain,
and know that can be because of the

00:23:33.411 --> 00:23:37.611
cloud cover, because that can be because
it the clouds hit because the rain hit.

00:23:37.611 --> 00:23:38.451
I am getting wet.

00:23:38.451 --> 00:23:40.941
I am having this experience
and I am reacting to it.

00:23:42.051 --> 00:23:45.891
Relationship climate can play a
role in this topographical map

00:23:45.891 --> 00:23:48.561
because we may show up differently
depending on whether we feel safe.

00:23:48.936 --> 00:23:52.836
Or we feel threatened, and
then we have to be aware of

00:23:52.836 --> 00:23:55.446
our resources and our reserves.

00:23:55.866 --> 00:23:58.956
It's about our capacity for
mature responses, because that'll

00:23:58.956 --> 00:24:00.456
diminish when we are depleted.

00:24:00.456 --> 00:24:04.116
There's an acronym that's big in
the the addiction recovery world.

00:24:04.116 --> 00:24:10.236
Halt if I am hungry, if I'm angry, if I
am lonely, if I am tired, because keep

00:24:10.236 --> 00:24:15.246
in mind, self-awareness about where we
fall on the spectrum is not about shame.

00:24:15.936 --> 00:24:16.296
It just.

00:24:17.361 --> 00:24:21.651
And once I'm aware of where I'm at,
then I can start making a choice.

00:24:22.311 --> 00:24:26.391
And the goal is absolutely not
perfection, but it is expansion.

00:24:26.481 --> 00:24:27.891
It is moving from this.

00:24:27.891 --> 00:24:33.231
I did not know what I did not know to
I know, but man, I don't do whatever

00:24:33.231 --> 00:24:34.521
it is as much as I would like.

00:24:34.611 --> 00:24:37.521
And that's a hard place to be because
you will beat yourself up there often.

00:24:38.181 --> 00:24:41.391
But eventually I'll move on to this next
stage of where I know far more than I did.

00:24:41.826 --> 00:24:45.366
And that one is where I'm starting to
give myself much more grace and I'm

00:24:45.366 --> 00:24:50.016
having more success and I'm starting
to feel a shift in inside, and then I

00:24:50.016 --> 00:24:53.016
finally become, this is just who I am.

00:24:53.436 --> 00:24:54.276
This is what I do.

00:24:55.076 --> 00:24:55.196
I.

00:24:55.996 --> 00:24:58.756
And when we talk about our emotions,
there's a belief in the emotionally

00:24:58.756 --> 00:25:01.366
focused therapy world that our
emotions travel up to two and

00:25:01.366 --> 00:25:03.166
a half times faster than logic.

00:25:03.166 --> 00:25:05.466
That is our visceral or our gut reaction.

00:25:05.526 --> 00:25:07.656
And it is a an amazing
thing that the body does.

00:25:08.196 --> 00:25:09.246
Our visceral reaction.

00:25:09.246 --> 00:25:12.486
We're walking down the street and
then outta the corner of our eye,

00:25:12.486 --> 00:25:14.466
we see something and we recoil.

00:25:14.801 --> 00:25:16.301
We don't even know what that is.

00:25:16.451 --> 00:25:18.881
And then we look and then we see
it's just a string on the ground.

00:25:18.881 --> 00:25:20.471
Not a predator, not a snake.

00:25:20.921 --> 00:25:24.731
That is miraculous the way that works
because I don't even know what's happening

00:25:24.771 --> 00:25:27.801
and I am avoiding this potential danger.

00:25:28.371 --> 00:25:30.201
So we have these default reactions.

00:25:30.546 --> 00:25:33.856
So we often need to accept
the fact that just happens.

00:25:34.216 --> 00:25:38.266
Now we can work to start to change
those neural pathways, but I

00:25:38.266 --> 00:25:40.876
think it's important to recognize
that first they are there.

00:25:40.936 --> 00:25:42.166
Those are our default reactions.

00:25:42.166 --> 00:25:44.386
So many of those just
happen from childhood.

00:25:45.046 --> 00:25:47.116
'cause even the most mature person.

00:25:47.176 --> 00:25:51.816
Can regress when triggers hit , and
that over time becomes actually

00:25:51.906 --> 00:25:53.136
something that's pretty fascinating.

00:25:53.166 --> 00:25:56.526
If I become more emotionally mature and
grounded, it does not mean that I will

00:25:56.556 --> 00:25:59.106
never react in an immature way again, but.

00:25:59.976 --> 00:26:02.586
But it will become not
as much of the norm.

00:26:02.586 --> 00:26:06.186
So when I do react in this
emotionally immature way, I can

00:26:06.186 --> 00:26:07.686
say, wow, okay, that hit something.

00:26:07.816 --> 00:26:08.566
What's that about?

00:26:08.666 --> 00:26:12.176
It gives me an opportunity to dig a
little deeper inside self confront, see

00:26:12.176 --> 00:26:13.826
what I can make sense of out of this.

00:26:14.316 --> 00:26:17.676
Now this I think is the meat of
what we're gonna talk about today.

00:26:18.201 --> 00:26:23.571
Let's talk about childlike behaviors
that show up in adult bodies, because I

00:26:23.571 --> 00:26:28.701
think these childhood patterns do become
the blueprint of our adult behaviors.

00:26:29.511 --> 00:26:33.351
I. Now, when I started as a
therapist, I determined that, uh,

00:26:33.411 --> 00:26:34.881
I would stay in the here and now.

00:26:35.151 --> 00:26:38.651
I would I felt like looking back at
her childhood felt like making excuses.

00:26:38.981 --> 00:26:42.041
And I remember thinking whenever I
would see therapists in movies or on

00:26:42.041 --> 00:26:45.941
TV shows asking the cliched questions
like, tell me about your mom, or

00:26:46.151 --> 00:26:47.501
Take me back to your childhood.

00:26:47.771 --> 00:26:49.811
I would think, no, I
will not be doing that.

00:26:49.991 --> 00:26:51.791
I am gonna stay in the
present in the here and now.

00:26:51.791 --> 00:26:52.811
I will be that therapist.

00:26:53.081 --> 00:26:55.511
Of course, having no idea what I
didn't know that I didn't know.

00:26:56.891 --> 00:27:01.181
It did not take long for reality to set
in because patterns became very clear.

00:27:01.181 --> 00:27:02.741
They were too consistent to ignore.

00:27:03.291 --> 00:27:05.751
I remember learning about
psychodynamic therapy.

00:27:05.751 --> 00:27:09.651
This is the therapy that was
built from Sigmund Freud himself.

00:27:10.211 --> 00:27:13.331
And I'm not saying that I am a
practicing psychodynamic therapist.

00:27:13.331 --> 00:27:16.151
As a matter of fact, what I love
is when I was in grad school, you

00:27:16.151 --> 00:27:20.201
started to recognize that you did
not have to pick a discipline or

00:27:20.201 --> 00:27:25.631
a modality, but you became more, I
think it was nuanced, eclectic organic

00:27:25.631 --> 00:27:27.161
dynamic, all those different words.

00:27:27.676 --> 00:27:31.396
But psychodynamic therapy, it's
this approach that recognizes how

00:27:31.396 --> 00:27:35.926
our past experiences, how our past
experiences, especially those from

00:27:35.926 --> 00:27:40.196
childhood, continue to influence the
things we do in our present behaviors,

00:27:40.316 --> 00:27:42.606
relationships our emotional responses.

00:27:43.366 --> 00:27:47.536
It explores the, and what I think
is this is the key, the unconscious

00:27:47.776 --> 00:27:51.466
patterns that drive our actions,
that create these deeply rutted,

00:27:51.466 --> 00:27:55.546
neuropathways, and then it helps bring
awareness to these hidden influences.

00:27:55.636 --> 00:27:58.786
The reason why we react, you
can think of it this way.

00:27:59.086 --> 00:28:02.266
Imagine your mind as a house
where you live and you live

00:28:02.266 --> 00:28:03.586
primarily on the main floor.

00:28:03.766 --> 00:28:05.356
That is your conscious awareness.

00:28:05.806 --> 00:28:07.906
But below there is a basement.

00:28:08.656 --> 00:28:11.266
Or your, your unconscious
or the subconscious.

00:28:11.716 --> 00:28:15.226
And in this basement, there's probably
some spiders, some things like that.

00:28:15.496 --> 00:28:18.666
But that's where the electrical panels,
the plumbing systems the hot water

00:28:18.666 --> 00:28:22.806
heater, the foundation are located
now when, when lights in your house

00:28:22.806 --> 00:28:26.707
flicker or pipes leak upstairs the
problem often originates and these

00:28:26.856 --> 00:28:28.806
systems that you cannot immediately see.

00:28:29.346 --> 00:28:32.166
So psychodynamic therapy is kinda
like following the leaks or the

00:28:32.166 --> 00:28:35.286
electrical issues or the reason
there's no hot water to the source.

00:28:35.536 --> 00:28:39.416
Down in the basement might have to get
around a couple of spiders and rather than

00:28:39.416 --> 00:28:41.606
just patching the visible damage upstairs.

00:28:42.436 --> 00:28:46.246
A psychodynamic therapist might help
somebody who constantly sabotages

00:28:46.246 --> 00:28:50.086
promising relationships by guiding
them to, to recognize that they, maybe

00:28:50.086 --> 00:28:53.686
it's their fear of abandonment and
that that could stem from their dad's

00:28:53.686 --> 00:28:56.296
unpredictable presence in childhood,
or their anxious attachment could

00:28:56.296 --> 00:28:58.156
occur because when they wanted, I.

00:28:58.266 --> 00:28:59.496
Validation from mom.

00:28:59.646 --> 00:29:02.586
She was unavailable and overwhelmed,
but when she needed to feel better about

00:29:02.586 --> 00:29:04.206
herself, she said, come give mom a hug.

00:29:04.476 --> 00:29:07.836
And so now the very thing that the
person wants is for somebody to pay

00:29:07.836 --> 00:29:11.046
attention to them, all of a sudden
feels overwhelming and you feel flooded.

00:29:11.406 --> 00:29:14.986
So you find yourself pursuing the
person that is not interested in you.

00:29:15.881 --> 00:29:19.481
So the therapist doesn't just address
the current relationship issues, but they

00:29:19.481 --> 00:29:23.831
would help this person understand how
these childhood experiences created this

00:29:23.831 --> 00:29:28.591
unconscious pattern that now automatically
activates in these relationships.

00:29:29.341 --> 00:29:33.301
So I think it really becomes
pretty necessary to explore your

00:29:33.301 --> 00:29:36.721
childhood because when we talk
about emotional immaturity, what

00:29:36.721 --> 00:29:41.311
we're essentially doing is we're
discussing this arrested development.

00:29:41.776 --> 00:29:45.196
And not talking about the sitcom
from back in the day, but arrested

00:29:45.196 --> 00:29:48.196
development, meaning I'm talking about
places where our emotional growth

00:29:48.256 --> 00:29:51.226
got stuck and these stuck points.

00:29:51.721 --> 00:29:56.191
Almost always connect to childhood
experiences where we developed these

00:29:56.191 --> 00:29:59.971
adaptive strategies that helped us
navigate these difficult situations.

00:30:00.601 --> 00:30:04.591
What we started to do is we absorbed
models of behavior from our caregivers,

00:30:04.981 --> 00:30:08.521
and we started to form these core
beliefs about ourselves, about others,

00:30:08.521 --> 00:30:13.261
about the world, and without being
able to examine these childhood

00:30:13.261 --> 00:30:17.281
origins, now we're just left treating
symptoms instead of the causes.

00:30:17.806 --> 00:30:23.076
It's like you're trying to treat a
rash without identifying the potential

00:30:23.136 --> 00:30:25.326
thing or allergen that causes the rash.

00:30:25.956 --> 00:30:29.796
And the examples from my clients just
illustrate this perfectly over and

00:30:29.796 --> 00:30:32.286
over again, and that I've got a couple
that just have happened recently.

00:30:32.286 --> 00:30:34.006
One a father who,

00:30:34.366 --> 00:30:36.196
one is a father who.

00:30:37.021 --> 00:30:41.681
Told me that he put his child in the
corner when his child was acting out

00:30:41.681 --> 00:30:45.851
or being mean, and he said, I realized
that I was just following a blueprint

00:30:45.851 --> 00:30:47.471
that had been handed to me from my dad.

00:30:47.891 --> 00:30:51.491
And at first he didn't question
the effectiveness or even the

00:30:51.491 --> 00:30:55.871
appropriateness of it until he actually
started to examine it in therapy.

00:30:56.471 --> 00:30:59.741
And he realized that is something
that he said was completely

00:30:59.741 --> 00:31:01.211
unproductive for him as a kid.

00:31:01.211 --> 00:31:04.571
And all he learned how to do
was sit in that corner and just.

00:31:05.471 --> 00:31:08.141
Not feel good about himself or
his relationship with his parents.

00:31:08.501 --> 00:31:10.091
And he learned to just do his time.

00:31:10.751 --> 00:31:14.501
And another example that was very
recent was a client whose parents

00:31:14.501 --> 00:31:16.181
used hot sauce as punishment.

00:31:16.781 --> 00:31:19.931
,  if he said something that
they said was naughty,  they

00:31:19.931 --> 00:31:21.521
would make a meat hot sauce.

00:31:21.861 --> 00:31:26.721
This was just a kid that was responding
to things in real time as a kid.

00:31:27.111 --> 00:31:28.161
They were just reactions.

00:31:28.971 --> 00:31:32.616
And now when he started to do
that, I. He was operating from this

00:31:32.676 --> 00:31:36.336
unexamined childhood script, not
because he consciously believed

00:31:36.336 --> 00:31:40.626
it was effective, because he knew
it wasn't, but it was familiar.

00:31:41.286 --> 00:31:44.496
And I think what's really fascinating is
that these childhood experiences, they're

00:31:44.496 --> 00:31:49.596
not even stored as logical memories,
but as these emotional templates.

00:31:50.266 --> 00:31:53.626
That inner child isn't holding onto
the memory of standing in the corner

00:31:53.926 --> 00:31:58.276
or tasting hot sauce to remind you
what to do when your kids misbehave.

00:31:58.576 --> 00:32:01.546
I really think that it's holding
onto those memories because

00:32:01.546 --> 00:32:03.376
it actually needs healing it.

00:32:03.426 --> 00:32:07.236
, it needs the adult version of you
to recognize that was not cool.

00:32:07.716 --> 00:32:08.856
That was not very appropriate.

00:32:09.286 --> 00:32:11.236
That wasn't fair to little me.

00:32:11.416 --> 00:32:14.146
As a matter of fact, I don't ever have
to eat hot sauce again in my whole life.

00:32:14.836 --> 00:32:18.166
And it's only when we start to shine a
light on these childhood patterns that we

00:32:18.166 --> 00:32:22.846
can start to make these conscious choices
rather than these unconscious repetitions,

00:32:22.846 --> 00:32:26.176
which I think so many of us are just
doing, and we think that it's just normal.

00:32:26.176 --> 00:32:26.866
It's okay.

00:32:28.036 --> 00:32:31.426
We can't change what we don't
acknowledge, what we don't shine light on.

00:32:31.426 --> 00:32:35.356
And this is why I think, despite
my early resistance, I now believe

00:32:35.356 --> 00:32:38.206
deeply in asking that cliche question.

00:32:38.866 --> 00:32:39.736
Tell me more about that.

00:32:40.126 --> 00:32:41.086
Tell me about your childhood.

00:32:41.596 --> 00:32:42.496
Tell me about your mom.

00:32:42.736 --> 00:32:43.546
Tell me about your dad.

00:32:43.816 --> 00:32:45.466
it's not as an excuse.

00:32:45.826 --> 00:32:50.026
It's as a, well, it's like an
archeological dig to understand

00:32:50.026 --> 00:32:53.296
this blueprint from where
you've been unconsciously

00:32:53.296 --> 00:32:54.856
building your whole adult life.

00:32:55.561 --> 00:32:59.171
It is the roadmap to these deeply
rutted, , neuro pathways so that

00:32:59.171 --> 00:33:01.061
we can start to dig new ones.

00:33:01.881 --> 00:33:04.971
The most profound parenting work
often happens when we finally

00:33:04.971 --> 00:33:07.281
start to honestly parent ourselves.

00:33:07.731 --> 00:33:12.051
And when we give our inner child this
understanding compassion and these

00:33:12.051 --> 00:33:15.621
appropriate responses that they really
never received, and I'm gonna give

00:33:15.621 --> 00:33:18.681
our parents credit for not knowing
what they didn't know or dealing with

00:33:18.681 --> 00:33:22.562
things the way that they thought that
, they needed to be dealt with when we

00:33:23.072 --> 00:33:26.972
re-parent ourselves with this grace,
with this love, with this compassion.

00:33:27.632 --> 00:33:31.352
Then we can truly start to offer our
own children something different.

00:33:32.222 --> 00:33:35.372
, there's a book I really enjoyed,
I highly recommended it's fiction

00:33:35.372 --> 00:33:37.172
and it's called The Silent Patient.

00:33:37.202 --> 00:33:39.572
It was written by an author, and I'm
probably gonna butcher their last

00:33:39.572 --> 00:33:43.532
name, but Alex Mcla and the author
followed that up with another book.

00:33:43.562 --> 00:33:49.272
I really enjoyed it, which was not as
much about institutions or therapy or

00:33:49.272 --> 00:33:53.787
set in a, in that kind of an environment,
but still, I. The way that the author

00:33:53.787 --> 00:33:57.267
weaves in therapeutic concepts into
the story, I think is brilliant.

00:33:57.667 --> 00:34:00.857
There's a main character who
he  shares the character's

00:34:00.857 --> 00:34:02.297
experience going to therapy.

00:34:02.577 --> 00:34:05.637
The book's called The Fury, and I
did enjoy the story, but what drew

00:34:05.637 --> 00:34:09.287
me in was his description of therapy
through one of the characters.

00:34:09.287 --> 00:34:11.837
Here's what that character said,
and I think it fits in so well with

00:34:11.837 --> 00:34:12.737
what we're talking about today.

00:34:13.457 --> 00:34:16.547
So the character said, my
therapist was called Mariana.

00:34:16.697 --> 00:34:18.437
I remember one, she
said something chilling.

00:34:18.917 --> 00:34:20.717
It messed up my head for a long time.

00:34:20.777 --> 00:34:22.847
Looking back, I think it
changed my entire life.

00:34:23.447 --> 00:34:26.327
When we are young and afraid,
when we are shamed and humiliated,

00:34:26.327 --> 00:34:28.277
something happens, time stops.

00:34:28.517 --> 00:34:29.147
It freezes.

00:34:29.147 --> 00:34:32.567
At that moment, a version of us
is trapped at that age forever.

00:34:32.897 --> 00:34:36.227
A frightened child is hiding in
your mind and it's still unsafe.

00:34:36.617 --> 00:34:40.307
It's still unheard and it's unloved, and
the sooner you get in touch with that

00:34:40.307 --> 00:34:43.937
child and then communicate with them,
the more harmonious your life will be.

00:34:44.957 --> 00:34:45.677
Here's the good part.

00:34:46.277 --> 00:34:46.997
After all.

00:34:47.402 --> 00:34:48.422
That's what he grew you for.

00:34:48.422 --> 00:34:48.812
Isn't it?

00:34:49.292 --> 00:34:52.712
A strong adult body to look after
him and his interests, to take

00:34:52.712 --> 00:34:54.392
care of him, to protect him.

00:34:54.632 --> 00:34:59.012
You were meant to liberate him, but
instead you ended up becoming his jailer.

00:35:00.302 --> 00:35:02.642
That hit me so deep when I heard that.

00:35:03.617 --> 00:35:04.517
Quote in this book.

00:35:05.177 --> 00:35:08.357
'cause I think it just beautifully
illustrates this process of emotional

00:35:08.357 --> 00:35:12.287
development because those moments
of childhood, the fear, the shame,

00:35:12.287 --> 00:35:15.907
the humiliation, they literally
freeze a part of us in time.

00:35:16.627 --> 00:35:21.487
And we then have to develop these
brilliant adaptive strategies as a kid.

00:35:22.027 --> 00:35:24.247
To navigate those painful experiences.

00:35:24.667 --> 00:35:27.967
But as we grow into our adult bodies,
those same strategies, they don't

00:35:27.967 --> 00:35:32.637
evolve with us, that frightened child
remains and it's running old programs,

00:35:32.637 --> 00:35:34.287
but now it's in new situations.

00:35:34.767 --> 00:35:38.497
So what becomes really fascinating
is how these frozen moments start

00:35:38.497 --> 00:35:40.357
to manifest in adult relationships.

00:35:40.987 --> 00:35:44.407
The child who learned to people
please to avoid conflict becomes

00:35:44.407 --> 00:35:46.027
the adult who can't set boundaries.

00:35:46.672 --> 00:35:49.672
Or the child who learned to shut
down emotions becomes the partner

00:35:49.672 --> 00:35:51.292
who can't express vulnerability.

00:35:52.162 --> 00:35:55.582
The child who needed constant
reassurance becomes the adult who

00:35:55.582 --> 00:35:57.442
seeks endless external validation.

00:35:58.252 --> 00:36:01.072
So in my case, I think I'm
batting three for three.

00:36:01.852 --> 00:36:04.882
And I think this is exactly what we mean
when we talk about emotional immaturity.

00:36:05.228 --> 00:36:08.808
it is not a character flaw, it's
a natural part of development.

00:36:09.483 --> 00:36:13.653
Parts of us are literal, are literally
operating from the emotional understanding

00:36:14.103 --> 00:36:16.323
of a much younger version of ourself.

00:36:17.553 --> 00:36:22.083
So I want to spend a moment and really
explore what these childlike behaviors,

00:36:22.563 --> 00:36:24.273
how they appear in adult bodies.

00:36:24.933 --> 00:36:29.193
You know what were, once these brilliant
survival adaptations now have become

00:36:29.733 --> 00:36:31.473
roadblocks to our relationships.

00:36:32.073 --> 00:36:35.553
And the first step toward growth
isn't rejecting the patterns.

00:36:35.898 --> 00:36:40.638
It isn't a what's wrong with me, but it's
more of a compassionate recognition of

00:36:40.638 --> 00:36:44.268
how those things have served us and the
hope that we can begin to let them go.

00:36:44.448 --> 00:36:47.298
Basically like a thanks
junior version of me.

00:36:47.658 --> 00:36:50.388
Good looking out you, you meant well.

00:36:50.418 --> 00:36:52.728
And I can't even believe how
hard that must have been.

00:36:52.728 --> 00:36:55.008
I can't imagine how hard
that must have been to try to

00:36:55.008 --> 00:36:56.448
navigate this as a little kid.

00:36:57.498 --> 00:37:00.798
So when we look at emotional development,
certain behaviors definitely serve

00:37:00.798 --> 00:37:05.208
children well, but let's look at how
they do show up in our relationships.

00:37:06.008 --> 00:37:10.698
So let's, so let's explore these
childlike behaviors that appear

00:37:10.698 --> 00:37:12.468
in our adult bodies, because.

00:37:13.113 --> 00:37:17.103
Remembering that these were once brilliant
survival adaptations and now they

00:37:17.103 --> 00:37:19.743
become roadblocks to your relationship.

00:37:19.893 --> 00:37:24.023
And I think that very first step
toward growth is not to shame

00:37:24.053 --> 00:37:25.433
yourself for these patterns.

00:37:25.673 --> 00:37:27.383
It's not to reject these patterns,

00:37:27.593 --> 00:37:30.988
but I think what it really requires is to.

00:37:31.753 --> 00:37:35.773
Have some compassionate recognition
of how these behaviors served us,

00:37:36.493 --> 00:37:41.443
and I think that's in the hope that
we can then thank them, acknowledge

00:37:41.443 --> 00:37:43.993
them, and then start to let them go.

00:37:44.743 --> 00:37:47.533
When we look at emotional development,
I think there are certain behaviors

00:37:47.533 --> 00:37:52.513
that really are there to serve
us well as children, but then

00:37:52.513 --> 00:37:56.053
they become these relationship
roadblocks when we become adults.

00:37:58.613 --> 00:38:03.533
Because I want to just very quickly speak
to something I am just so, so passionate

00:38:03.533 --> 00:38:08.753
about, and that is, I really believe, and
maybe it's just my world that I live in as

00:38:08.753 --> 00:38:12.703
a therapist, my own personal experiences,
but we are just now starting to really

00:38:12.703 --> 00:38:14.593
figure out what to do with our emotions.

00:38:15.053 --> 00:38:17.063
They weren't welcome in our childhood.

00:38:17.393 --> 00:38:21.303
I, and I just think it's because it
just was, that's how things were.

00:38:21.953 --> 00:38:23.483
Our parents didn't know
what they didn't know.

00:38:23.513 --> 00:38:25.103
We certainly don't know
what we don't know.

00:38:25.563 --> 00:38:31.413
We're playing out these relationships
that we saw modeled, but when you're

00:38:31.413 --> 00:38:36.303
a kid, even the very best of parent,
when a kid emotes, when something

00:38:36.303 --> 00:38:39.123
happens, when they scrape their knee,
when they get angry about something,

00:38:39.123 --> 00:38:43.323
when they don't get something they
want and they express emotion, even a

00:38:43.323 --> 00:38:47.353
good parent says, Hey, hey, calm down,
or you can't talk to me like that.

00:38:47.353 --> 00:38:49.363
Or That's, it's, that's not okay.

00:38:49.453 --> 00:38:49.873
Or.

00:38:50.668 --> 00:38:51.718
It's not a big deal.

00:38:51.838 --> 00:38:52.768
You'll get over it.

00:38:53.128 --> 00:38:54.088
Don't worry about it.

00:38:54.238 --> 00:38:55.648
How do you think that makes me feel?

00:38:55.678 --> 00:38:56.908
What role did you play?

00:38:57.118 --> 00:38:59.708
Are you sure that it it wasn't your fault?

00:39:00.458 --> 00:39:04.928
And so the kid, instead of being validated
and allowing them to feel, man, it looks

00:39:04.928 --> 00:39:09.478
like you have some big feelings, or it
looks looks like you are sad or angry,

00:39:09.478 --> 00:39:11.783
or, tell me how you're feeling right now.

00:39:11.783 --> 00:39:14.663
Get a feelings wheel out for
Pete's sake and point to it.

00:39:14.663 --> 00:39:19.843
Or one of those, one of those, charts that
shows all the happy face, the sad face,

00:39:19.843 --> 00:39:24.383
the angry face, and saying, point to me,
which one of these that you are feeling.

00:39:25.073 --> 00:39:29.303
So the first step that I don't think
any of us, I won't try to go all or

00:39:29.303 --> 00:39:34.313
nothing, maybe most people weren't
allowed to really explore what I am

00:39:34.313 --> 00:39:38.063
even feeling, where I am feeling it,
what the story of my brain is telling

00:39:38.063 --> 00:39:42.383
me it even is because over time.

00:39:42.983 --> 00:39:45.653
What we are hearing is
your feelings are wrong.

00:39:46.013 --> 00:39:47.693
They are too much for me to handle.

00:39:48.113 --> 00:39:52.763
I need you to not have them, and
I need you to just stop doing what

00:39:52.763 --> 00:39:54.413
you're doing so I will feel better.

00:39:55.568 --> 00:39:59.068
So over time, the kid stops
externalizing their emotions and

00:39:59.068 --> 00:40:00.808
they begin to internalize them.

00:40:00.928 --> 00:40:05.358
And what that speaks to  is when that
feeling comes up inside of them, stuff

00:40:05.358 --> 00:40:07.968
it down because it's probably wrong.

00:40:08.328 --> 00:40:09.678
You're gonna bother somebody with it.

00:40:10.098 --> 00:40:14.028
And now you are all of a sudden hiding
your emotions in order to make sure

00:40:14.028 --> 00:40:16.098
and manage someone else's experience.

00:40:17.478 --> 00:40:19.708
And so now you've got this
inner child, this little kid

00:40:19.708 --> 00:40:21.418
that felt all these things.

00:40:21.958 --> 00:40:25.288
And apparently is operating from this
place where, and those things are

00:40:25.288 --> 00:40:28.468
probably wrong and I should not feel them.

00:40:28.828 --> 00:40:30.298
So something is wrong with me.

00:40:30.988 --> 00:40:34.918
And if they finally boil up and come out,
then I'm actually hoping that somebody

00:40:34.918 --> 00:40:38.428
tells me it's okay to feel that way,
but here's what you need to do with

00:40:38.428 --> 00:40:41.668
it, even though that person doesn't
know what it feels like to be you.

00:40:42.808 --> 00:40:43.348
So we.

00:40:43.708 --> 00:40:46.348
We make these little imprints
on our souls and our hearts.

00:40:46.348 --> 00:40:47.338
All these feelings do.

00:40:47.788 --> 00:40:52.108
And I go back to what that quote from
the book, the Fury says, I really

00:40:52.108 --> 00:40:54.808
think that our inner child said, all
right, I don't know how to handle

00:40:54.808 --> 00:40:59.668
this, but someday I'm gonna, I'm gonna
guess that you're gonna become that

00:40:59.668 --> 00:41:02.848
big kid, like all the ones that you're
seeing, your parents, those around you.

00:41:03.238 --> 00:41:06.688
And hopefully when you become
that big kid, do me a favor and

00:41:06.688 --> 00:41:09.868
heal us because you're the only
one that can truly do that.

00:41:10.468 --> 00:41:12.148
But somewhere we lose that.

00:41:12.523 --> 00:41:17.443
We didn't get the memo, and so we're still
reacting to the world as that little kid.

00:41:18.043 --> 00:41:20.863
And instead, now is the time.

00:41:20.893 --> 00:41:24.253
Even if you didn't have that support
when you were young, it's time to

00:41:24.253 --> 00:41:27.643
find that support to become that
support for your inner child.

00:41:27.773 --> 00:41:30.233
It's time to heal, it's time to grow.

00:41:31.447 --> 00:41:33.727
Here comes the meat of today's episode.

00:41:34.612 --> 00:41:37.942
Let's talk about black or white
thinking, because children naturally

00:41:37.942 --> 00:41:39.712
see the world in these absolutes.

00:41:39.802 --> 00:41:41.782
Things are all good or they are all bad.

00:41:42.412 --> 00:41:46.852
And in adults, this then shows up or
manifests itself as ultimatums where

00:41:46.852 --> 00:41:52.642
people label their partners as always
or never doing something, and then the

00:41:52.642 --> 00:41:58.882
relationship cycles between idealization
of it is all good or then devaluation.

00:41:59.092 --> 00:41:59.902
It is all bad.

00:42:01.072 --> 00:42:05.062
And when you start talking about the world
of narcissistic traits or tendencies or

00:42:05.062 --> 00:42:09.382
even narcissistic personality disorder,
a true narcissist lacks this concept of

00:42:09.382 --> 00:42:14.472
whole object relations, meaning that they
see an A, a person, an entity, you name

00:42:14.472 --> 00:42:16.902
it as either all good or all bad, where.

00:42:17.292 --> 00:42:22.152
Having whole object relations is the
ability to see a person or anything as

00:42:22.152 --> 00:42:25.662
an entire object where I can certainly
be frustrated about something, but

00:42:25.662 --> 00:42:26.892
I can also appreciate something.

00:42:26.892 --> 00:42:30.382
I can love someone for the
things that  I love about them.

00:42:30.632 --> 00:42:34.262
I can also be frustrated with the way that
they're showing up in a certain situation.

00:42:35.012 --> 00:42:37.892
And that goes back to this all or
nothing, black or white thinking.

00:42:37.962 --> 00:42:41.432
It's a default in
us . Because it is easier.

00:42:41.432 --> 00:42:44.312
It's easier to just view
someone all good, all bad.

00:42:44.342 --> 00:42:46.862
The problem is with the world
of the emotionally immature.

00:42:47.552 --> 00:42:52.262
If you are making me feel
good, then you are good.

00:42:52.322 --> 00:42:54.662
But all of a sudden if you
say no or you disagree with

00:42:54.662 --> 00:42:57.152
something, now you are all bad.

00:42:58.142 --> 00:42:59.522
Or think about somebody.

00:42:59.572 --> 00:43:04.132
I can think of this example of a
client who ended a very long friendship

00:43:04.552 --> 00:43:06.532
after one argument with someone.

00:43:06.652 --> 00:43:08.122
And then at that point
they said, you know what?

00:43:08.122 --> 00:43:09.802
You never supported me anyway.

00:43:10.492 --> 00:43:13.822
And that's the kind of person that
might label somebody either as

00:43:13.822 --> 00:43:17.272
completely trustworthy or now all of
a sudden they're total back stabbers

00:43:17.272 --> 00:43:18.712
and there's nothing in between.

00:43:19.162 --> 00:43:22.732
And I think if you really interact
with someone that's pretty narcissistic

00:43:22.732 --> 00:43:28.702
or very high in the emotionally
immature category, they often.

00:43:29.587 --> 00:43:33.147
Think that somebody that comes into
their life, a caregiver someone at a

00:43:33.147 --> 00:43:37.137
restaurant, it could be even food is
this is the very best I've ever had.

00:43:37.347 --> 00:43:39.687
This person is the nicest person
I've ever interacted with.

00:43:40.137 --> 00:43:41.007
And then over time.

00:43:41.412 --> 00:43:44.502
Now if someone at that restaurant
didn't treat them well, or if this

00:43:44.502 --> 00:43:48.202
caregiver didn't show up when they
said they would, or they did not

00:43:48.262 --> 00:43:52.852
support what this person wants in in
their care, now all of a sudden that

00:43:52.852 --> 00:43:54.472
person, they, I've never liked them.

00:43:54.592 --> 00:43:55.942
They were bad the entire time.

00:43:56.742 --> 00:44:00.912
I deal a lot in the world of faith,
crisis, faith deconstruction and

00:44:00.912 --> 00:44:04.422
this is a, I call it the burning
down the village behind you theory.

00:44:04.782 --> 00:44:08.382
Where, when someone then starts to
deconstruct their faith or move away

00:44:08.382 --> 00:44:12.192
from their faith tradition or even
their church, instead of being able to

00:44:12.282 --> 00:44:15.942
see it as a entire object, you know,
there were things that I appreciated.

00:44:15.972 --> 00:44:19.602
These were good things, but these are
things I no longer, they don't serve

00:44:19.602 --> 00:44:24.942
me or they actually cause some damage
to me that's more emotionally mature

00:44:24.972 --> 00:44:29.682
as a way to look at something versus if
now I don't like it anymore, then it is

00:44:29.682 --> 00:44:32.052
all bad and it was bad the entire time.

00:44:32.852 --> 00:44:36.722
In parenting, . You might be a parent who
swings between, I'm failing at everything,

00:44:37.112 --> 00:44:40.472
and then I am the perfect parent based
off of a single good or bad day, or even

00:44:40.472 --> 00:44:42.602
a good or bad interaction with your kid.

00:44:43.742 --> 00:44:47.432
This next one is one that I think
is so fascinating and I am so guilty

00:44:47.432 --> 00:44:50.432
of this in very many areas, and it
is the concept of magical thinking.

00:44:50.912 --> 00:44:52.742
Now, how does this show up with kids?

00:44:52.772 --> 00:44:55.832
Children believe that their thoughts
can influence external reality.

00:44:56.462 --> 00:44:59.852
Adults with this pattern might
assume partners should just know

00:44:59.852 --> 00:45:01.652
what they want without communicating.

00:45:02.837 --> 00:45:03.557
Well, you should know.

00:45:04.037 --> 00:45:06.017
That is, it is magical thinking.

00:45:06.257 --> 00:45:11.927
I magically assume or think that you
should know, and a lot of times, I think

00:45:11.927 --> 00:45:14.052
with an assumption comes an accusation.

00:45:15.017 --> 00:45:17.927
Now all of a sudden there's a lot
of negativity around that too.

00:45:17.957 --> 00:45:22.547
Well, you should have known, and now I'm
accusing you of not knowing and now I've

00:45:22.727 --> 00:45:24.317
made the judgment that you don't care.

00:45:25.277 --> 00:45:29.267
But another version of magical thinking
is believing that avoiding difficult

00:45:29.267 --> 00:45:31.157
topics makes a problem disappear.

00:45:31.787 --> 00:45:35.332
And what I often see in relationships
is this is where someone is just

00:45:35.417 --> 00:45:39.197
not working on the relationship,
but they're just thinking that

00:45:39.197 --> 00:45:40.457
eventually it will become better.

00:45:41.147 --> 00:45:42.227
It I am here.

00:45:43.037 --> 00:45:47.607
So at some point I just assume that things
will just, they will be better  if we

00:45:47.607 --> 00:45:52.537
look back at the term magical thinking,
it is a bit of a magical thought that

00:45:52.927 --> 00:45:56.257
the thing that we're struggling with
right now, let's say we don't know how

00:45:56.257 --> 00:46:01.327
to communicate, we can't talk about
difficult subjects that now magically it

00:46:01.327 --> 00:46:05.047
will just disappear and we won't feel the
way we feel and everything will be better.

00:46:06.157 --> 00:46:06.967
Magical thinking.

00:46:07.657 --> 00:46:12.187
You should have known, or if we
ignore it, it will just get better.

00:46:12.367 --> 00:46:13.987
I'm gonna kick that can down the road.

00:46:14.156 --> 00:46:16.136
I think it's easy to
think of examples of this.

00:46:16.136 --> 00:46:18.746
Think of somebody who believes their
partner should just intuitively know

00:46:18.746 --> 00:46:20.456
that they're upset without communicating.

00:46:21.326 --> 00:46:24.596
And then feels increasingly resentful
when their unspoken needs aren't met.

00:46:24.776 --> 00:46:29.106
Or somebody who avoids checking their
bank account hypothetically somehow

00:46:29.106 --> 00:46:33.826
believing that if I don't look, then
that will prevent financial problems.

00:46:34.666 --> 00:46:40.586
One that I see so often and I am
still guilty to this day is I don't

00:46:40.586 --> 00:46:44.066
really enjoy opening my mail, so
if I don't open it, then there

00:46:44.066 --> 00:46:45.296
will never be any problems again.

00:46:46.096 --> 00:46:48.706
Children naturally believe their
thoughts can influence the external

00:46:48.706 --> 00:46:52.726
world because their cognitive development
hasn't yet separated their internal

00:46:52.726 --> 00:46:55.666
experiences from the external reality.

00:46:56.146 --> 00:46:59.716
When a 4-year-old says, okay, I
closed my eyes, you can't see me.

00:47:00.076 --> 00:47:03.201
Or they believe that their wishes
directly cause events, they're

00:47:03.201 --> 00:47:06.641
exhibiting healthy, developmental,
magical thinking for that age.

00:47:07.381 --> 00:47:10.201
Now we're supposed to outgrow this
as we develop a cause and effect

00:47:10.201 --> 00:47:13.351
understanding, but a lot of adults
still operate from this framework

00:47:13.391 --> 00:47:15.461
in emotional situations and.

00:47:16.271 --> 00:47:19.301
Dare I say, we can even see
things where we still go.

00:47:19.301 --> 00:47:20.471
This is where I think it's so fascinating.

00:47:20.471 --> 00:47:25.081
We go to this place where, okay, if I, if
I step on a crack, something will happen.

00:47:25.351 --> 00:47:29.161
If I don't repeat something a few times
then there's gonna be something negative

00:47:29.161 --> 00:47:30.541
that happens to somebody in my family.

00:47:30.931 --> 00:47:32.941
So that magical thinking is still there.

00:47:32.941 --> 00:47:35.041
And I think part of what we're
trying to do today is just

00:47:35.041 --> 00:47:37.531
acknowledge that that made sense.

00:47:37.651 --> 00:47:41.521
When we were young, it was adaptive
to our search or circumstances,

00:47:41.581 --> 00:47:43.621
and now it has become maladaptive.

00:47:44.911 --> 00:47:45.361
Another one.

00:47:45.421 --> 00:47:46.381
Emotional reasoning.

00:47:46.621 --> 00:47:49.141
Children believe if I feel
it, it's gotta be true.

00:47:49.891 --> 00:47:51.421
What does that look like with adults?

00:47:52.351 --> 00:47:55.201
I feel abandoned, therefore,
you are abandoning me.

00:47:55.651 --> 00:48:01.291
And this could be even when evidence shows
that there is no abandonment happening,

00:48:01.561 --> 00:48:04.096
there is no abandonment going on, and.

00:48:04.816 --> 00:48:08.056
What I think is so fascinating
about this one is that it really

00:48:08.176 --> 00:48:09.616
can look like this in a session.

00:48:10.156 --> 00:48:11.296
Someone just says I don't know.

00:48:11.296 --> 00:48:13.386
I just don't really feel
good about this situation.

00:48:13.386 --> 00:48:17.316
I don't feel good about what
you are doing, and so I need

00:48:17.316 --> 00:48:18.606
you to make me feel better.

00:48:18.696 --> 00:48:23.016
Now, I don't even know why I don't
feel good about it, but if you don't

00:48:23.016 --> 00:48:25.866
make me feel better, then I get to
say that you don't care about me.

00:48:25.986 --> 00:48:28.926
And then inside I might say,
and what's wrong with me,

00:48:28.926 --> 00:48:30.186
that this person doesn't care.

00:48:30.986 --> 00:48:36.486
I think that this one's really difficult
because when we are codependent, when we

00:48:36.486 --> 00:48:40.776
are enmeshed in our relationship, which I
believe most all relationships start from

00:48:40.776 --> 00:48:44.826
a place of codependency and enmeshment,
because we are trying to just show up and

00:48:44.826 --> 00:48:49.386
be the very best version of ourselves in
hopes that this person will love me, that

00:48:49.386 --> 00:48:53.286
they won't leave me, and we will justify
a little bit of that magical thinking

00:48:53.556 --> 00:48:55.686
that later everything will just be fine.

00:48:56.076 --> 00:48:57.336
It will be better later.

00:48:58.146 --> 00:49:00.416
So now when somebody does
say I don't feel good.

00:49:00.416 --> 00:49:03.596
I don't like the way that you're
handling this, then this is where

00:49:03.596 --> 00:49:04.976
the people pleaser comes in.

00:49:05.006 --> 00:49:07.886
The young child, our inner child
says, okay, just tell me whatever

00:49:07.886 --> 00:49:09.146
I need to do to make you happy.

00:49:09.386 --> 00:49:12.086
I'll take ownership of something that
I really don't believe has happened.

00:49:12.486 --> 00:49:14.256
You just let me know what I need to do.

00:49:14.646 --> 00:49:19.506
So in that scenario, even I put
that back on you to then, Hey,

00:49:19.506 --> 00:49:22.296
tell me what you think I need
to do to make you feel better.

00:49:22.296 --> 00:49:23.616
And I'm literally showing you that.

00:49:24.066 --> 00:49:29.056
I will do whatever I can, even if it goes
against my own sense of self or autonomy

00:49:29.326 --> 00:49:31.186
to try to make you feel better right now.

00:49:33.656 --> 00:49:36.866
Not too long ago, I  had such
a fascinating example of this.

00:49:36.866 --> 00:49:39.266
So changing up things, of course,
to protect confidentiality.

00:49:39.566 --> 00:49:43.716
But I had someone who was involved in
a business relationship with another

00:49:43.716 --> 00:49:48.156
person, and they weren't even aware
of what had happened behind the

00:49:48.156 --> 00:49:50.646
scenes in this business situation.

00:49:51.276 --> 00:49:54.606
So when they were finally able
to confront the other person.

00:49:55.026 --> 00:49:58.346
The other person said, yeah
I've sensed the tension.

00:49:58.376 --> 00:50:01.106
I knew that something's been
off between us for a long time.

00:50:01.646 --> 00:50:06.206
But what was fascinating about that is
that the person that brought awareness

00:50:06.206 --> 00:50:11.786
to what they had just learned about
what had been happening over time and

00:50:11.786 --> 00:50:16.256
this business relationship, that person
did not know that anything was off.

00:50:16.781 --> 00:50:19.811
So they actually thought
that everything was fine.

00:50:20.291 --> 00:50:23.741
But now when they bring awareness to
that, to this other person that they found

00:50:23.741 --> 00:50:28.661
out had not been showing up, maybe we'll
say operating from a place of integrity

00:50:29.321 --> 00:50:34.241
in in a business situation, that person
said, oh, I have felt like something has

00:50:34.241 --> 00:50:36.011
been off between us for quite a while.

00:50:36.581 --> 00:50:39.551
Well, that was, they felt
like something had been off.

00:50:40.031 --> 00:50:43.301
So then it must be that
they are both thinking that.

00:50:43.961 --> 00:50:45.461
Th they're projecting that onto them.

00:50:45.551 --> 00:50:46.601
I feel bad.

00:50:46.991 --> 00:50:51.491
So then of course, that means that you are
also aware that there's something awkward

00:50:51.491 --> 00:50:53.531
here that other person was not aware.

00:50:53.861 --> 00:50:56.411
So that was very much a them issue.

00:50:56.471 --> 00:51:01.691
The person who had done something that
was not from a place of integrity in this

00:51:01.691 --> 00:51:05.741
business relationship, but had not taken
ownership of it, which we'll actually

00:51:05.771 --> 00:51:07.691
talk about here in just a few minutes.

00:51:08.268 --> 00:51:11.388
Or think of somebody who cancels
plans with friends because, you

00:51:11.388 --> 00:51:13.728
know, I feel like they don't really
want me there anyway, despite

00:51:13.728 --> 00:51:14.988
clear evidence to the contrary.

00:51:15.498 --> 00:51:18.588
Or somebody who feels intense jealousy
when their partner mentions a coworker.

00:51:18.678 --> 00:51:21.018
And that'll start to create
this relationship tension based

00:51:21.023 --> 00:51:24.558
entirely on an internal feeling
rather than objective reality.

00:51:24.928 --> 00:51:26.998
Once you see it, it is
really hard to unsee.

00:51:27.478 --> 00:51:32.248
It'll sound a lot like, well, I, I
don't want you to think that I am

00:51:32.248 --> 00:51:34.348
angry, so I didn't say this thing.

00:51:34.648 --> 00:51:37.958
Well, give me a chance to
feel, I might not feel angry.

00:51:38.048 --> 00:51:40.898
I might actually feel good
about whatever you're doing.

00:51:41.308 --> 00:51:42.568
, it starts to get really complex.

00:51:42.568 --> 00:51:44.818
Well, I didn't want to tell this
person that because I was worried

00:51:44.818 --> 00:51:47.428
that they would think this, and I
don't want them to think that, and

00:51:47.428 --> 00:51:49.468
I don't want them to get mad and.

00:51:49.963 --> 00:51:56.953
And I mean this with love and kindness and
all due respect, but that is also dipping

00:51:56.953 --> 00:52:00.983
into that magical thinking that I have
this power and I can control everyone's

00:52:00.983 --> 00:52:05.543
emotional experiences, but in reality,
emotional maturity is I need to be.

00:52:05.543 --> 00:52:11.463
I. Willing and able to allow people to
have their own emotional experiences.

00:52:11.823 --> 00:52:13.713
I'm worried that you might get mad.

00:52:13.863 --> 00:52:18.513
Well, I appreciate that worry, but give
me a chance because I may not be mad.

00:52:18.843 --> 00:52:22.103
Or if I am gonna get mad, that's
a me issue and that might be the

00:52:22.103 --> 00:52:27.053
exact thing I need to start to,
to grow or to really self confront

00:52:27.053 --> 00:52:29.003
and see why does that make me mad?

00:52:30.503 --> 00:52:31.493
External validation.

00:52:32.303 --> 00:52:34.583
Children need constant
reassurance from caregivers.

00:52:34.583 --> 00:52:37.103
So in adults, this leads to
excessive approval seeking.

00:52:37.163 --> 00:52:41.993
It's difficulty maintaining your
self-worth without continued affirmation,

00:52:41.993 --> 00:52:43.343
without continued validation.

00:52:43.808 --> 00:52:46.238
An easy one here is think of
somebody who posts on social media.

00:52:46.238 --> 00:52:49.298
They check their likes
compulsively, and their mood is

00:52:49.298 --> 00:52:50.648
directly tied to the response.

00:52:51.308 --> 00:52:54.338
Or somebody who changes their opinion
based on whoever they're talking to.

00:52:54.398 --> 00:52:58.238
They adapt almost like this chameleon
to gain approval rather than

00:52:58.238 --> 00:52:59.588
expressing their authentic views.

00:53:00.548 --> 00:53:04.328
What I've been having my couples do for
a little while now is any chance you get,

00:53:04.418 --> 00:53:09.878
whether it's a movie or a TV show or a
meal, that if you need to type it in your

00:53:09.878 --> 00:53:16.718
phone, write down what your opinion is and
then almost this 1, 2, 3, share it instead

00:53:16.718 --> 00:53:17.798
of saying, I dunno, what'd you think?

00:53:17.858 --> 00:53:18.878
Oh, I didn't really like it.

00:53:18.908 --> 00:53:19.538
Yeah, me neither.

00:53:19.658 --> 00:53:20.738
Or, I really liked it.

00:53:20.798 --> 00:53:25.178
I kind of did too, and I think
that's a great place to practice,

00:53:25.238 --> 00:53:27.608
that it's okay to have your own
thoughts and your own opinion.

00:53:28.703 --> 00:53:33.863
And that is getting your, your reps in,
of trying to figure out who you are.

00:53:33.863 --> 00:53:37.103
It's okay to have your own thoughts,
opinions, emotions, feelings.

00:53:37.913 --> 00:53:39.833
Another one is difficulty
with accountability.

00:53:40.283 --> 00:53:44.343
Children instinctively they protect
themselves by denying responsibility.

00:53:44.883 --> 00:53:47.223
Gaslighting is a childhood
defense mechanism.

00:53:47.793 --> 00:53:51.123
So now in adults, this shows up as
blame shifting, as defensiveness,

00:53:51.123 --> 00:53:55.003
as gaslighting, and a inability
to offer genuine apology.

00:53:55.858 --> 00:53:58.588
Because going back to this concept
of gaslighting as a childhood defense

00:53:58.588 --> 00:54:04.098
mechanism to a kid, if they did not see
parents that were modeling apologies

00:54:04.098 --> 00:54:09.318
or taking ownership of the, their own
behaviors, then to the kid, it's coming

00:54:09.318 --> 00:54:15.218
across as if I admit this or if I get
in trouble, then I may be booted outta

00:54:15.218 --> 00:54:16.868
the family or I'm gonna be punished.

00:54:17.168 --> 00:54:18.878
And that's the last
thing that a kid wants.

00:54:19.418 --> 00:54:21.878
, to feel like they are getting life wrong.

00:54:22.538 --> 00:54:27.658
So they will just sit this one out
and hopes that the storm will pass

00:54:27.658 --> 00:54:30.028
of emotion and then they survived.

00:54:30.268 --> 00:54:35.008
Or if I say I didn't do it and I blame
it on somebody else, literally like the

00:54:35.008 --> 00:54:40.498
dog ate my homework and I stick to that
story, I stick to my guns and that passes.

00:54:40.888 --> 00:54:44.188
Then I am learning that that
is something that definitely

00:54:44.188 --> 00:54:45.838
helped me adapt as a child.

00:54:46.348 --> 00:54:49.018
And it's very maladaptive
in your adult relationships.

00:54:49.588 --> 00:54:52.168
You can think of somebody who
responds to feedback at work by

00:54:52.168 --> 00:54:55.528
immediately listing all the ways that
others contributed to the problem.

00:54:55.738 --> 00:54:59.278
Or somebody who says, Hey, I'm sorry you,
uh, you feel that way instead of, I'm

00:54:59.278 --> 00:55:04.138
sorry that I did that when they've hurt
their partner or subtly hurt the person

00:55:04.138 --> 00:55:06.298
that's responsible for their own pain.

00:55:06.628 --> 00:55:09.418
And I will say, and we'll
save this for another episode.

00:55:10.288 --> 00:55:13.768
As you become more emotionally
mature, as you start to know who you

00:55:13.768 --> 00:55:17.958
are, , there are two versions of,
I am sorry that you feel that way.

00:55:18.438 --> 00:55:20.148
There's a, I'm sorry you feel that way.

00:55:20.148 --> 00:55:20.958
Passive aggressive.

00:55:20.958 --> 00:55:23.538
That's a you issue and
that's not my fault.

00:55:23.838 --> 00:55:28.488
And there really is a, I am truly sorry
that you feel that way about something

00:55:28.488 --> 00:55:30.198
that I said or something that I did.

00:55:30.378 --> 00:55:32.358
And it isn't that I'm not
taking ownership of it.

00:55:32.418 --> 00:55:33.108
I'm genuinely.

00:55:33.768 --> 00:55:34.518
Very sorry.

00:55:34.518 --> 00:55:37.688
And I want to take a look at what I
said and why you feel the way you do.

00:55:37.718 --> 00:55:40.328
But let's do this in a,
a collaborative effort.

00:55:41.248 --> 00:55:45.718
Another one that is just, you cannot
unsee this and that is mind reading.

00:55:46.678 --> 00:55:49.948
Children assume that others see
the world ex exactly as they do,

00:55:50.278 --> 00:55:51.448
and adults with this pattern.

00:55:51.478 --> 00:55:54.568
They make assumptions about their
partner's intentions without

00:55:54.628 --> 00:55:56.218
checking, and they feel hurt

00:55:56.318 --> 00:55:59.318
when unstated expectations aren't
met, you can think of somebody who

00:55:59.318 --> 00:56:01.838
arrives home angry because their
partner didn't text during the day.

00:56:02.208 --> 00:56:05.628
Having created a complete narrative
about the partners indifference without

00:56:05.628 --> 00:56:07.218
checking, they must have not cared.

00:56:07.338 --> 00:56:10.438
And now I'm coming home and I know
their intentions, even if they're

00:56:10.438 --> 00:56:11.878
not willing to admit it themselves.

00:56:12.388 --> 00:56:15.088
So this one, it's mind reading,
also has a little bit of magical

00:56:15.088 --> 00:56:19.078
thinking, or somebody who withdraws
affection as punishment, assuming

00:56:19.078 --> 00:56:22.318
their partner knows exactly what they
did wrong without having a discussion.

00:56:23.113 --> 00:56:26.023
And I think this just connects so
well to the concept of projection

00:56:26.023 --> 00:56:29.803
because in projection, we attribute
our own unacknowledged feelings

00:56:29.803 --> 00:56:31.483
or our thoughts to others.

00:56:31.843 --> 00:56:34.843
So when we're feeling insecure, then
we might mind read that our partner

00:56:34.843 --> 00:56:38.323
is judging us, or when we're feeling
guilty about something, we might know

00:56:38.383 --> 00:56:39.973
our partner is disappointed in us.

00:56:40.433 --> 00:56:42.803
Mind reading creates this
concept of a double bind.

00:56:42.893 --> 00:56:46.793
We react to what we imagine the other
person thinks, which creates then

00:56:46.793 --> 00:56:48.533
the very tension that we feared.

00:56:49.723 --> 00:56:51.883
One or two more poor emotional boundaries.

00:56:52.453 --> 00:56:54.943
Children naturally merge their
identity with their caregiver.

00:56:54.943 --> 00:56:57.283
Again, they get their sense of
self from external validation.

00:56:57.283 --> 00:57:01.003
Now in adult relationships, this will
manifest as taking responsibility

00:57:01.003 --> 00:57:04.603
for other people's feelings or
making others responsible for yours.

00:57:05.233 --> 00:57:07.483
You can think of somebody who falls
apart when their partner's sad,

00:57:07.483 --> 00:57:10.303
taking on the emotion as if it was
their very own emergency to fix.

00:57:10.303 --> 00:57:11.143
I'm so sorry.

00:57:11.413 --> 00:57:12.733
I can't believe you feel that way.

00:57:12.733 --> 00:57:13.693
I am just so sorry.

00:57:13.693 --> 00:57:18.763
What can I do to help when their partner
might just be expressing an emotion or

00:57:19.873 --> 00:57:24.023
it goes back to the , I'm gonna dump
my frustration or my anger into the

00:57:24.023 --> 00:57:25.703
relationship and see who will pick it up.

00:57:25.793 --> 00:57:27.323
My spouse, my kids.

00:57:27.551 --> 00:57:30.071
somebody who expects their
partner to manage their anxiety.

00:57:30.131 --> 00:57:32.501
Saying things like, you know what
happens when you bring up that topic?

00:57:32.501 --> 00:57:34.181
You are beginning to make me upset.

00:57:35.021 --> 00:57:36.431
So lemme go back to what I shared earlier.

00:57:36.491 --> 00:57:41.201
Those moments of childhood fear and shame
or humiliation, literally freeze a part of

00:57:41.201 --> 00:57:45.431
us in time, and we develop these brilliant
adaptive strategies and that helps us

00:57:45.431 --> 00:57:47.171
navigate these painful experiences.

00:57:47.171 --> 00:57:51.641
But as we grow into our adult
bodies, those same strategies

00:57:51.641 --> 00:57:52.871
do not evolve with us.

00:57:53.196 --> 00:57:54.486
They are served us well.

00:57:54.486 --> 00:57:58.476
We are literally still alive,
but that frightened child remains

00:57:58.476 --> 00:58:01.296
and it's running these old
programs in these new situations.

00:58:01.816 --> 00:58:03.886
Let me share something that
happened recently in a therapy

00:58:03.886 --> 00:58:04.876
session, and I think this.

00:58:05.251 --> 00:58:07.151
Speaks to this concept in life.

00:58:08.081 --> 00:58:10.901
I was working with a couple and we
were discussing these patterns that I

00:58:10.901 --> 00:58:14.381
just went over, and we were identifying
those childhood behaviors that no longer

00:58:14.381 --> 00:58:16.241
serve them in their adult relationships.

00:58:16.481 --> 00:58:19.361
Now, one partner was actively engaged
and they were recognizing a lot

00:58:19.361 --> 00:58:20.681
of these patterns from the list.

00:58:21.011 --> 00:58:23.711
But when I turned to the other partner
and I asked what came up for them,

00:58:23.711 --> 00:58:25.481
they just simply said, I don't know.

00:58:25.961 --> 00:58:27.311
And they seemed to just check out.

00:58:28.001 --> 00:58:31.301
So I gently ask, Hey, what
are you feeling right now?

00:58:31.611 --> 00:58:32.631
What is coming up for you?

00:58:32.691 --> 00:58:35.331
And I really felt like what
they shared was pretty profound.

00:58:35.711 --> 00:58:38.681
This person said, honestly, I feel like
I'm back in my high school chemistry

00:58:38.681 --> 00:58:43.241
class, and the teacher would call on me
unexpectedly, and I never knew really what

00:58:43.241 --> 00:58:44.861
the answer was that they were looking for.

00:58:44.861 --> 00:58:46.631
And I just felt like I was in trouble.

00:58:46.761 --> 00:58:48.471
There was a right answer,
but I didn't know it.

00:58:48.981 --> 00:58:50.421
And I feel that way right now.

00:58:51.366 --> 00:58:55.116
So we dug a little deeper and as we we
explored a little further, they revealed

00:58:55.116 --> 00:58:56.886
that this wasn't just about chemistry.

00:58:57.276 --> 00:59:00.126
Throughout childhood questions from
their authority figures such as

00:59:00.126 --> 00:59:04.386
parents, teachers, coaches, the Sunday
school teachers, they never felt

00:59:04.386 --> 00:59:08.826
like they were neutral or like they
could just express themselves and

00:59:08.826 --> 00:59:09.996
what they were thinking or feeling.

00:59:10.446 --> 00:59:13.566
. Questions felt like tests that
had right and wrong answers

00:59:13.626 --> 00:59:15.546
and wrong answers meant shame.

00:59:16.206 --> 00:59:17.166
You are bad.

00:59:17.196 --> 00:59:18.306
You should have known this.

00:59:18.786 --> 00:59:23.346
So this person we identified developed
a, an adaptive strategy, silence.

00:59:24.126 --> 00:59:26.946
You know, the magical thinking was if I
don't say anything, they'll either move

00:59:26.946 --> 00:59:31.446
on or eventually they will provide the
answer they want and then I can pretend.

00:59:31.716 --> 00:59:32.616
That's what I was thinking.

00:59:33.576 --> 00:59:36.596
It's, it's a brilliant
childhood adaptation with.

00:59:37.046 --> 00:59:39.866
A child that doesn't even,
they're just existing.

00:59:39.866 --> 00:59:41.966
They're just trying to
figure out how to survive.

00:59:42.926 --> 00:59:44.996
But they would freeze to avoid shame.

00:59:45.386 --> 00:59:47.156
And now that was showing
up in the marriage.

00:59:47.606 --> 00:59:50.156
So whenever their partner asked their
opinion or wanted to discuss something

00:59:50.156 --> 00:59:53.576
important, they would mentally check
out just like they did in my office.

00:59:53.636 --> 00:59:57.146
So what had protected them from
criticism as children was now preventing

00:59:57.146 --> 00:59:58.676
authentic connection as an adult.

00:59:59.306 --> 01:00:01.316
. And I think this is exactly
what we mean when we're talking

01:00:01.316 --> 01:00:02.366
about emotional immaturity.

01:00:02.366 --> 01:00:05.996
That it is not a character flaw,
it's a natural part of development.

01:00:05.996 --> 01:00:09.086
Parts of us are literally operating
from the emotional understanding

01:00:09.146 --> 01:00:11.546
of a very young version of ourself.

01:00:12.536 --> 01:00:16.276
These childlike behaviors, they
show up in our adult bodies and they

01:00:16.276 --> 01:00:20.626
were wonderful survival adaptations,
but now there are roadblocks to the

01:00:20.626 --> 01:00:24.436
relationship, and growth is not about
rejecting the patterns, but it's about

01:00:24.436 --> 01:00:26.416
having a compassionate recognition.

01:00:26.941 --> 01:00:27.901
Of how they served us.

01:00:29.161 --> 01:00:30.241
, let's change gears a bit.

01:00:30.711 --> 01:00:33.021
Some people may think that the
internet is sending the whole

01:00:33.021 --> 01:00:34.521
world to heck in a hand basket.

01:00:35.151 --> 01:00:38.781
And then you Google something so
obscure and you find it that you

01:00:38.781 --> 01:00:42.381
realize that despite all the calamity
in the world, there's still hope.

01:00:42.891 --> 01:00:47.181
And that hope has a name and it has
been found on the reader Rabbit Wiki.

01:00:47.241 --> 01:00:49.821
More specifically reader
Rabbit's preschool.

01:00:49.851 --> 01:00:50.811
Let's start learning.

01:00:51.211 --> 01:00:53.941
The year was either 1997 or 1998.

01:00:54.541 --> 01:00:59.551
The pattern parade  was accessed by
clicking on the pattern parade banner, or

01:00:59.551 --> 01:01:04.561
by popping these balloons that then bend
The adorable ant is holding outside now.

01:01:04.561 --> 01:01:07.081
The player then has to create
patterns by moving animals.

01:01:07.081 --> 01:01:08.281
They're dressed in different colors.

01:01:08.281 --> 01:01:13.231
They play a variety of instruments into
various positions on the parade line.

01:01:13.981 --> 01:01:16.921
I played this a lot for my kids.

01:01:17.311 --> 01:01:17.641
Sure.

01:01:17.641 --> 01:01:19.216
I. I kind of enjoyed it.

01:01:20.026 --> 01:01:22.756
Now, the completed parade will then
play their respective instruments

01:01:22.756 --> 01:01:25.996
and then walk off screen before being
replaced by another set of animals.

01:01:25.996 --> 01:01:29.476
And yes, there is a website that not only
tells you this, but also shows you all the

01:01:29.476 --> 01:01:31.156
various instruments and animals involved.

01:01:31.366 --> 01:01:32.146
But I digress.

01:01:32.266 --> 01:01:36.101
But let's talk about pattern
recognition or this is why we choose

01:01:36.376 --> 01:01:38.056
the familiar over the healthy.

01:01:39.256 --> 01:01:43.126
A client recently came to therapy and they
joked about feeling nauseated when hearing

01:01:43.396 --> 01:01:45.496
the common idea that we marry our parents.

01:01:45.956 --> 01:01:49.586
During our sessions, we explored
what what I call the familiar, how

01:01:49.586 --> 01:01:52.826
we're drawn to relationship dynamics
that echo our childhood experiences.

01:01:53.156 --> 01:01:56.006
This client grew up with parents
who never really saw him.

01:01:56.126 --> 01:01:59.756
They weren't curious about his life, and
they either dismissed his experiences or

01:01:59.756 --> 01:02:01.706
compared them unfavorably to their own.

01:02:01.826 --> 01:02:03.206
They did everything better than he did.

01:02:03.631 --> 01:02:07.861
The only validation he received came
from major achievements, so he ended

01:02:07.861 --> 01:02:12.751
up marrying someone who, while so
different than his mom, he realized

01:02:12.751 --> 01:02:17.521
recreates this same emotional dynamic,
a quiet, avoidantly attached woman who

01:02:17.521 --> 01:02:21.091
doesn't show curiosity about him, and
then often misinterprets his interest

01:02:21.091 --> 01:02:26.041
in her activities as criticism and,
and he finds himself attempting to

01:02:26.131 --> 01:02:30.991
increasingly up the ante, perform these
grand gestures to gain her recognition.

01:02:31.526 --> 01:02:34.616
Just like he used to do with his
parents, and the pattern became even

01:02:34.616 --> 01:02:38.786
clearer when he mentioned that he had
had this college girlfriend who was

01:02:38.876 --> 01:02:44.066
deeply attentive and interested in
him, which he now is acknowledged.

01:02:44.066 --> 01:02:45.896
That just felt too uncomfortable.

01:02:46.286 --> 01:02:47.186
She was too much.

01:02:47.246 --> 01:02:50.576
So he ended that relationship
despite sometimes now wondering

01:02:51.086 --> 01:02:54.846
is that the level of connection
that I really needed or desired?

01:02:55.491 --> 01:02:58.821
So what felt familiar to him was
this emotional invisibility and the

01:02:58.821 --> 01:03:02.621
need to perform to get attention not
the superficial personality traits.

01:03:02.681 --> 01:03:05.861
And I think this concept's
fascinating and it, uh, it's really

01:03:05.861 --> 01:03:07.601
relevant to emotional maturity.

01:03:08.275 --> 01:03:11.915
Okay, so let's talk about
this this poll of familiarity.

01:03:12.830 --> 01:03:15.350
Our brains they
desperately want certainty.

01:03:15.430 --> 01:03:19.150
They are prediction engines, they're
pattern recognition machines.

01:03:19.600 --> 01:03:23.410
So what we experienced in childhood
becomes literally wired into

01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.900
our neural pathways as normal.

01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:28.340
And that creates our attachment template.

01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:33.170
So even when these patterns
cause pain, they feel.

01:03:33.560 --> 01:03:37.130
Kind of bizarrely comfortable
because they're predictable.

01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:41.150
They're the familiar, our brain
knows exactly how to navigate them.

01:03:41.780 --> 01:03:44.420
And I believe this ties into that
acceptance and commitment therapy

01:03:44.420 --> 01:03:48.920
principle where our brain bless its
little pink, squishy heart is is not

01:03:48.920 --> 01:03:51.170
always the smartest thing in the world.

01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:55.160
Because it thinks it's operating
from this finite amount of electrical

01:03:55.160 --> 01:03:59.030
activity, so it continually wants
to habitualize things and use less

01:03:59.030 --> 01:04:00.740
energy and less electrical activity.

01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.020
Under this belief, it will live forever.

01:04:03.020 --> 01:04:06.845
I. That is adorable because it keeps
us though, from doing things that

01:04:06.845 --> 01:04:10.745
actually would give us a sense of
purpose and help us live a more

01:04:11.105 --> 01:04:12.965
connected, a more fulfilling life.

01:04:13.715 --> 01:04:17.075
But part of this as well is a
thing that I think is fascinating.

01:04:17.075 --> 01:04:19.625
It's called Freud's Repetition Compulsion.

01:04:20.045 --> 01:04:21.755
We're talking about Sigmund Freud and.

01:04:22.955 --> 01:04:26.315
I think a lot of modern psychology
can debunk some Freud things.

01:04:26.315 --> 01:04:28.315
So we're just talking
about this as a muse.

01:04:28.315 --> 01:04:29.155
It's pretty interesting.

01:04:29.605 --> 01:04:32.845
But Freud observed that people
unconsciously recreate these

01:04:32.845 --> 01:04:36.805
painful situations from their past
and what his theory was that I.

01:04:37.555 --> 01:04:41.925
That we do this 'cause we're attempting
to master pass traumas by recreating them

01:04:41.925 --> 01:04:46.065
in, in hopes of then having a different
outcome and then it will go away.

01:04:46.695 --> 01:04:49.665
So he's saying that the unconscious
mind continues to work through

01:04:49.665 --> 01:04:52.125
unresolved conflicts by repeating them.

01:04:52.875 --> 01:04:57.225
And the belief is that there's this
primitive comfort in the familiar, again,

01:04:57.225 --> 01:05:03.135
it just, it, we know what that's like,
even if it's painful and even some modern

01:05:03.135 --> 01:05:05.115
neurosciences validated a lot of this.

01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:08.820
That our brains are drawn to
recreate what they know regardless

01:05:08.850 --> 01:05:10.020
of whether or not it's healthy.

01:05:10.020 --> 01:05:13.250
It's as if that healthy is it's
a judgment call that the brain

01:05:13.250 --> 01:05:14.600
is not really willing to make.

01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:16.190
This is just what we do.

01:05:17.210 --> 01:05:22.100
So if I go back to this example with my
client, then his childhood conditioning.

01:05:22.535 --> 01:05:24.425
Showed that his parents
didn't truly see him.

01:05:24.545 --> 01:05:25.865
They had this lack of attunement.

01:05:26.375 --> 01:05:29.915
He received validation only for the
things he did, performance achievement.

01:05:30.515 --> 01:05:33.755
And he experienced a very
consistent emotional dismissal.

01:05:34.355 --> 01:05:36.995
So what does he do with his
adult relationship choice?

01:05:37.445 --> 01:05:40.785
He married someone who, despite
the superficial differences from

01:05:40.785 --> 01:05:45.855
his mom, recreates, for better or
worse, that same emotional dynamic.

01:05:46.500 --> 01:05:49.020
Where he feels fundamentally
unseen and unheard.

01:05:49.620 --> 01:05:52.620
He believes he has to perform
to receive recognition.

01:05:53.370 --> 01:05:57.270
And then he experiences this
misinterpretation of him

01:05:57.270 --> 01:06:01.520
trying to be authentic and
share as if he is criticizing.

01:06:02.090 --> 01:06:06.230
I think this is really the essence
of familiarity trumping health.

01:06:07.340 --> 01:06:11.030
Even though he's consciously joking
about quote, marrying his mom.

01:06:11.570 --> 01:06:14.240
I think his nervous system
though unconsciously sought

01:06:14.240 --> 01:06:15.920
what it recognized as.

01:06:16.130 --> 01:06:17.450
This is relationship.

01:06:17.630 --> 01:06:18.830
This is familiar.

01:06:19.310 --> 01:06:21.860
This is the feeling of
striving for connection while

01:06:21.860 --> 01:06:23.210
being fundamentally unseen.

01:06:23.780 --> 01:06:27.620
And that girlfriend who was too
into him represented the unfamiliar.

01:06:28.430 --> 01:06:32.090
Even though he could tell himself that's
what I want, it was so uncomfortable

01:06:32.390 --> 01:06:36.020
that his nervous system literally didn't
have the wiring to process and feel

01:06:36.020 --> 01:06:41.240
comfortable with being genuinely seen and
valued without performance or even at all.

01:06:41.600 --> 01:06:45.080
So the unfamiliar, even though
it was healthy, felt threatening.

01:06:45.560 --> 01:06:48.250
'cause we don't have established
neural pathways to navigate it.

01:06:49.105 --> 01:06:52.075
I think this pattern shows
what we're talking about today

01:06:52.125 --> 01:06:53.265
the emotional immaturity.

01:06:53.265 --> 01:06:58.545
That it's not a character flaw, but
it's a natural outcome of what we

01:06:58.545 --> 01:07:00.165
could call his attachment history.

01:07:00.615 --> 01:07:00.765
Hi.

01:07:00.765 --> 01:07:05.235
His childhood adaptation performing
for attention was a brilliant survival

01:07:05.235 --> 01:07:09.645
strategy as a kid, but it keeps him
locked in unfulfilling patterns and un

01:07:10.135 --> 01:07:11.960
unfulfilling relationships as an adult.

01:07:12.860 --> 01:07:15.745
So what does this path toward
emotional maturity look like?

01:07:16.555 --> 01:07:21.425
First, recognizing these patterns these
adaptations, they're not character flaws.

01:07:21.425 --> 01:07:22.595
There's nothing wrong with you.

01:07:23.075 --> 01:07:26.015
And then start to build
tolerance for this anxiety of

01:07:26.015 --> 01:07:28.235
unfamiliar but healthy dynamics.

01:07:28.285 --> 01:07:31.675
The things we don't know, that we
don't know, the great unknown, and

01:07:31.675 --> 01:07:34.825
start creating these new neural
pathways through consistent.

01:07:35.215 --> 01:07:37.885
New experiences, growth
through the discomfort.

01:07:38.725 --> 01:07:41.375
And I just think what's so powerful
about this concept is just how

01:07:41.375 --> 01:07:44.225
it illustrates that we don't
just marry a personality type.

01:07:44.675 --> 01:07:47.705
We probably marry a little bit of
the emotional dynamics that recreate

01:07:47.705 --> 01:07:51.875
our most fundamental relationship
patterns for better or for worse.

01:07:52.985 --> 01:07:56.315
So I have quite a bit more, but we're
well over an hour at this point.

01:07:56.315 --> 01:07:58.805
So I think I wanna wrap this up
and we'll move into a part two.

01:07:59.015 --> 01:08:02.315
And what I love about doing a part
two is that if you have thoughts or

01:08:02.315 --> 01:08:06.725
questions or comments or anything
about this episode, please reach out

01:08:06.725 --> 01:08:11.555
to me at contact@tonyoverbay.com and
and I'll maybe start the next episode.

01:08:11.715 --> 01:08:14.205
Off by answering some questions
around what we've talked

01:08:14.205 --> 01:08:16.365
about here in the first part.

01:08:16.785 --> 01:08:18.825
Thank you so much for your support.

01:08:19.225 --> 01:08:20.425
I love the feedback.

01:08:20.425 --> 01:08:25.010
I really enjoy being able to put
content out and help And I so appreciate

01:08:25.010 --> 01:08:28.370
those of you who've taken the time to
subscribe or follow or like, or go find

01:08:28.370 --> 01:08:30.230
me on YouTube or Instagram or TikTok.

01:08:30.570 --> 01:08:31.680
It is so much appreciated.

01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.405
Share this episode if you think
it resonates and taking us out

01:08:34.405 --> 01:08:36.605
as ri Hope it's not my job.

01:08:36.695 --> 01:08:39.755
And we'll see you next time
on waking Up the narcissism.