WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.189 --> 00:00:02.940 Hey, everybody today, before we get to another virtual couch 00:00:02.940 --> 00:00:04.449 presents waking up to narcissism. 00:00:04.449 --> 00:00:07.499 I Just had a couple of things I wanted to share . So recently 00:00:07.509 --> 00:00:11.699 Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky met with us president Donald Trump 00:00:11.859 --> 00:00:14.039 and vice president J. D. Vance in the Oval Office. 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:18.389 Now, before you think, Oh my gosh, we're going political now, I come in peace as 00:00:18.389 --> 00:00:22.139 a mental health professional who works primarily with the emotionally immature 00:00:22.369 --> 00:00:27.119 also known as people who are waking up to their very own narcissistic traits and 00:00:27.119 --> 00:00:31.099 tendencies or people who are starting to recognize that they're in relationships 00:00:31.099 --> 00:00:35.829 with a narcissistic fill in the blank, be it a spouse, a partner, a boss, a 00:00:35.829 --> 00:00:39.889 sibling, a religious institution, a pet, particularly if you're a cat owner. 00:00:40.524 --> 00:00:44.324 But I want to simply bring some awareness to what emotional immaturity looks like, 00:00:44.324 --> 00:00:48.784 because too often, that's what we're more familiar with, so we can sometimes 00:00:48.784 --> 00:00:50.214 think that that is just the norm. 00:00:50.604 --> 00:00:54.764 But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's okay, or it's the only way 00:00:54.764 --> 00:00:56.374 that one should conduct themselves. 00:00:56.374 --> 00:00:58.234 And yes, I just should all over you. 00:00:58.854 --> 00:01:01.364 Because I think once you know better, then you can do better. 00:01:02.114 --> 00:01:05.644 So during this meeting, a correspondent from a conservative network questioned 00:01:05.654 --> 00:01:09.504 why Zelensky wasn't wearing a suit, seemingly criticizing his I think 00:01:09.504 --> 00:01:11.094 it's his black tactical attire. 00:01:11.894 --> 00:01:16.374 But even as I share that last sentence, I wish I could maybe even muster up a little 00:01:16.374 --> 00:01:19.394 of my own formerly emotional immaturity. 00:01:19.584 --> 00:01:21.974 Because it wasn't delivered like Tom Brokaw. 00:01:22.024 --> 00:01:23.534 Tell me more about your attire today. 00:01:23.534 --> 00:01:24.584 What does that symbolize? 00:01:25.144 --> 00:01:28.664 It's more, think prime Chris Farley circa Tommy Boy. 00:01:28.834 --> 00:01:32.824 Where, again, I can't even muster it up, but, he, why are you wearing that suit? 00:01:33.744 --> 00:01:36.094 So this criticism struck me as particularly ironic. 00:01:36.094 --> 00:01:40.434 Now, not just because other people like Elon Musk have entered the same 00:01:40.434 --> 00:01:44.654 office in casual attire without comment, but because I thought it perfectly 00:01:44.654 --> 00:01:47.544 illustrated something that I see every day in my work as a therapist. 00:01:47.614 --> 00:01:48.874 The disconnect between. 00:01:49.314 --> 00:01:52.744 Our outward appearance and our emotional maturity, because far too 00:01:52.744 --> 00:01:57.114 often I watch grown human beings who can drive cars and can own homes 00:01:57.514 --> 00:02:01.364 and they wear adult clothing, truly communicate similarly to a seven year 00:02:01.365 --> 00:02:06.531 old child, pouting, bullying, yelling, refusing to apologize, or refusing to 00:02:06.531 --> 00:02:07.991 take ownership of their own behavior. 00:02:07.991 --> 00:02:11.881 And Zelinsky's tactical gear isn't a fashion statement. 00:02:11.961 --> 00:02:13.251 It's a powerful symbol. 00:02:14.201 --> 00:02:17.081 I did a little bit of digging on my own, and according to Ukrainian journalist, 00:02:17.081 --> 00:02:21.301 Ilya Ponomorenko the clothes are more than clothes They're part of a culture 00:02:21.301 --> 00:02:23.221 of people who are involved in the war. 00:02:23.861 --> 00:02:27.401 So Zelensky choice represents the average Ukrainian fighting in this conflict. 00:02:27.871 --> 00:02:31.231 So when he meets with world leaders, his attire asks a, a profound question, are 00:02:31.231 --> 00:02:35.551 you about the business of saving lives or are you more about the protocols? 00:02:35.756 --> 00:02:38.336 So he comes to the centers of power representing his people in their 00:02:38.336 --> 00:02:40.106 current reality, which is a war zone. 00:02:40.926 --> 00:02:42.706 So here's where the irony emerges. 00:02:42.916 --> 00:02:46.896 So in that oval office, who displayed greater emotional maturity? 00:02:47.411 --> 00:02:49.211 We'll take the politics right out of it. 00:02:49.721 --> 00:02:52.651 Those in the traditional suits who questioned the other person's appearance 00:02:52.651 --> 00:02:55.421 or the leader who chose attire that represents his people's struggle. 00:02:56.091 --> 00:02:57.071 The setting was formal. 00:02:57.081 --> 00:02:58.901 The office was prestigious. 00:02:58.901 --> 00:03:02.561 The suits were impeccable, but the exchange revealed that neither 00:03:02.561 --> 00:03:04.821 location nor clothing can determine. 00:03:05.391 --> 00:03:07.421 Specifically, emotional maturity. 00:03:07.451 --> 00:03:09.641 Now, let's define emotional maturity. 00:03:09.641 --> 00:03:13.111 As a mental health professional, I define emotional maturity as the 00:03:13.111 --> 00:03:15.751 ability to respond, rather than react. 00:03:15.941 --> 00:03:18.061 To remain curious about different perspectives. 00:03:18.551 --> 00:03:22.611 To be able to stay grounded and regulate your emotions during disagreement. 00:03:23.111 --> 00:03:26.921 To calm your own anxiety, to stay grounded, to not have to overreact, but 00:03:27.201 --> 00:03:31.841 to be fair, not to play small as well and to take ownership of the things 00:03:31.891 --> 00:03:34.221 , that you need to take ownership of. 00:03:35.051 --> 00:03:36.841 It's a resistance of black and white thinking. 00:03:37.041 --> 00:03:41.241 It's recognizing the humanity in others, even when they're different, 00:03:42.261 --> 00:03:45.630 because in this world of emotional immaturity, there are only two ways to be. 00:03:46.932 --> 00:03:51.332 Right or wrong, good or bad, black or white, all or nothing. 00:03:51.792 --> 00:03:57.394 So when the emotionally immature person hears an opinion that theirs, all of 00:03:57.394 --> 00:04:00.764 a sudden they think, well that means you think you are right and I am wrong. 00:04:01.554 --> 00:04:05.334 Which is one of the most immature responses that an 00:04:05.334 --> 00:04:06.534 adult human being can have. 00:04:07.104 --> 00:04:11.484 It's okay to have your own opinion, your own view, your own thought, because 00:04:11.484 --> 00:04:14.604 you are actually the only version of you that has ever walked this face 00:04:14.604 --> 00:04:16.724 of the earth with your nature and your nurture and your birth order and 00:04:16.724 --> 00:04:19.944 your DNA and abandonment, rejection, all the things that make you, you. 00:04:20.390 --> 00:04:23.980 Let's talk about emotional immaturity and contrast the way that that 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:25.950 manifests itself is name calling. 00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:30.090 Mockery, putting other people on the defensive, having them have to defend 00:04:30.090 --> 00:04:33.780 things that aren't even necessarily true about them, talking over people, 00:04:34.450 --> 00:04:39.140 believing that your perspective is the only valid one, attacking differences 00:04:39.140 --> 00:04:40.690 rather than trying to understand them. 00:04:40.990 --> 00:04:45.060 Because again, it's okay to have different thoughts, different 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:46.410 opinions, different experiences. 00:04:46.627 --> 00:04:48.587 Why does emotional immaturity persist? 00:04:48.587 --> 00:04:50.137 Why do we see it everywhere we look? 00:04:50.777 --> 00:04:53.607 Emotional maturity isn't automatically granted with age. 00:04:54.332 --> 00:04:57.692 Most adults, I'm afraid, remain emotionally immature in so many 00:04:57.692 --> 00:05:00.032 different areas because of a bunch of different reasons. 00:05:00.462 --> 00:05:01.872 First and foremost, the modeling. 00:05:02.592 --> 00:05:05.052 They most likely grew up around emotionally immature adults who never 00:05:05.052 --> 00:05:08.562 demonstrated healthy emotional regulation or even healthy conflict resolution. 00:05:08.562 --> 00:05:11.002 I think we're barely getting to the point now where we can start 00:05:11.002 --> 00:05:14.612 to talk about our emotions and that it's okay to have our emotions. 00:05:14.822 --> 00:05:18.222 When we were kids, most likely we were told by the best of parents 00:05:18.222 --> 00:05:20.342 to not worry about it, to get over it, it's not a big deal. 00:05:20.862 --> 00:05:24.002 And we slowly learned to internalize all of our emotions 00:05:24.182 --> 00:05:27.962 and we learned our emotions are not good that they must be wrong. 00:05:28.052 --> 00:05:31.722 So if they are about to come out, then we, resolve them in very, very immature 00:05:31.722 --> 00:05:36.359 ways, either stuffing them playing small, more than likely you're interacting 00:05:36.359 --> 00:05:38.559 with people that just can't tolerate 00:05:38.559 --> 00:05:40.819 the emotions they feel if you have a different opinion, because again, 00:05:40.819 --> 00:05:43.279 it goes back to this black or white thinking where they think, Oh, you 00:05:43.289 --> 00:05:44.719 think that you're right and I'm wrong? 00:05:45.139 --> 00:05:47.499 Well, now I will do whatever it takes to get in that one up position 00:05:47.509 --> 00:05:49.109 because this is a zero sum game. 00:05:49.532 --> 00:05:51.792 Other reasons that we see so much emotional immaturity? 00:05:51.952 --> 00:05:52.332 Trauma. 00:05:52.692 --> 00:05:55.542 Unresolved trauma can freeze your emotional development at 00:05:55.542 --> 00:05:56.992 the age when the trauma occurred. 00:05:57.662 --> 00:06:00.182 How often have you seen an adult playing a board game with their 00:06:00.182 --> 00:06:03.352 kids and if they are starting to lose, they will say, I'm done. 00:06:03.462 --> 00:06:03.972 I quit. 00:06:04.149 --> 00:06:07.609 Like the little kid who took their ball and went home , when 00:06:07.609 --> 00:06:08.399 their team wasn't winning. 00:06:09.799 --> 00:06:12.319 But one of the major ones that we see, especially I think with people that 00:06:12.349 --> 00:06:16.419 rise to power is reinforcement because our culture often rewards aggressive 00:06:16.419 --> 00:06:19.429 domineering behavior, particularly in certain professional environments. 00:06:21.004 --> 00:06:25.087 And that's unfortunate because then what does that show the next generation 00:06:25.677 --> 00:06:30.817 that the immaturity, the bullying, the name calling, the mocking is okay 00:06:30.857 --> 00:06:32.477 and it actually will get you ahead. 00:06:34.097 --> 00:06:38.010 We also see emotional immaturity because , as big and bold as someone 00:06:38.070 --> 00:06:43.090 who wears a suit or not can pretend that they are, there's some fear underneath 00:06:43.090 --> 00:06:47.900 their fear because genuine curiosity about others requires vulnerability. 00:06:48.355 --> 00:06:51.615 It requires a willingness to have your mind potentially changed, 00:06:51.955 --> 00:06:53.025 which can feel threatening. 00:06:53.765 --> 00:06:54.895 It does until it doesn't. 00:06:55.455 --> 00:06:56.165 Go to therapy. 00:06:57.185 --> 00:07:00.355 Learn and understand that it's okay to not know something. 00:07:00.805 --> 00:07:02.485 It's okay to be curious about something. 00:07:02.525 --> 00:07:04.395 It's okay to go to a therapist. 00:07:04.405 --> 00:07:05.155 What do they know? 00:07:05.245 --> 00:07:06.885 Says the person who doesn't go to therapy. 00:07:08.615 --> 00:07:11.695 I don't think that I know more than my doctor or my attorney or my 00:07:11.705 --> 00:07:15.815 accountant or my real estate agent because I know that there are things 00:07:15.825 --> 00:07:17.375 that I don't know that I don't know. 00:07:17.970 --> 00:07:20.000 So what a joy if I can try to figure that out. 00:07:20.940 --> 00:07:23.470 And we also have to be honest about some neurological factors. 00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:26.040 Some neurological differences can make emotional regulation 00:07:26.440 --> 00:07:27.720 all the more challenging. 00:07:28.435 --> 00:07:29.655 Now, let's talk about breaking the cycle. 00:07:30.315 --> 00:07:33.225 True emotional maturity requires intentional growth. 00:07:33.845 --> 00:07:38.035 It means you have to be aware of and practice genuine curiosity about 00:07:38.035 --> 00:07:40.865 others and it will be uncomfortable and it will take repeated effort. 00:07:41.835 --> 00:07:45.185 You'll have to be aware and catch yourself in the all or nothing black 00:07:45.185 --> 00:07:49.225 or white thinking, recognizing when you are reacting from emotional triggers 00:07:49.225 --> 00:07:50.985 rather than responding thoughtfully. 00:07:51.845 --> 00:07:55.335 And that's going to take a lot of work to be able to calm your own anxiety, 00:07:55.335 --> 00:07:58.005 to build in that pause , to be curious. 00:07:58.685 --> 00:08:02.005 But it will allow you to respond thoughtfully to provide emotional 00:08:02.005 --> 00:08:04.495 safety, emotional consistency. 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:09.800 And emotional maturity, you have to be willing to see complexity in situations 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:11.870 and know that knowledge connection. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.270 These are the long game. 00:08:13.960 --> 00:08:17.030 If you need to get out of that discomfort in that very moment, that is a sign 00:08:17.280 --> 00:08:18.710 that you are emotionally immature. 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.430 So the next time that you see somebody being criticized for being different, or 00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:26.350 you find yourself wanting to criticize someone for being different, whether 00:08:26.350 --> 00:08:30.170 it's their clothing, their accent or their perspective or their ideas, 00:08:30.790 --> 00:08:32.690 remember Zelensky and his tactical gear. 00:08:33.425 --> 00:08:36.715 Because the true measure of maturity isn't the suit you wear or the office 00:08:36.715 --> 00:08:39.935 that you even occupy, but it's your capacity to approach differences 00:08:39.935 --> 00:08:41.835 with curiosity rather than judgment. 00:08:42.735 --> 00:08:46.095 In a world that I think desperately needs more understanding, perhaps we should 00:08:46.105 --> 00:08:49.345 be a little less concerned with what somebody is wearing and more interested 00:08:49.345 --> 00:08:50.655 in what their choices represent. 00:08:50.909 --> 00:08:54.169 What their ability to handle their discomfort looks like. 00:08:55.224 --> 00:08:59.054 Because I believe that can really show you who is a true leader. 00:08:59.164 --> 00:09:02.724 Someone that can show up emotionally consistent and emotionally mature, 00:09:03.374 --> 00:09:05.914 because I think it's that shift from judgment to curiosity. 00:09:06.544 --> 00:09:09.004 That's the hallmark of true emotional maturity. 00:09:09.684 --> 00:09:12.834 So now that you know better, I hope that you'll do better. 00:09:13.484 --> 00:09:14.054 Thanks everybody. 00:09:14.124 --> 00:09:15.294 Let's get to today's show. 00:09:28.335 --> 00:09:31.205 Thank you for that intro music from Riley Hope. 00:09:31.575 --> 00:09:33.415 And it is it is not my job. 00:09:33.635 --> 00:09:36.885 So go find Riley wherever you listen to music. 00:09:37.365 --> 00:09:37.675 Now. 00:09:38.415 --> 00:09:42.725 The following is based on an all too real scenario, but no, if you are a 00:09:42.805 --> 00:09:45.975 client of mine, a current or former, this is not about you, even if it 00:09:45.975 --> 00:09:51.105 sounds pretty spot on because these sessions, these scenarios are far, far 00:09:51.105 --> 00:09:52.985 too common in modern day relationships. 00:09:53.355 --> 00:09:55.945 But unfortunately, so many of the people in these relationships are not in a 00:09:55.945 --> 00:09:57.464 position to speak up or to be heard. 00:09:58.045 --> 00:10:01.265 And also know that while in this story, the wife plays the role of the 00:10:01.265 --> 00:10:04.475 pathologically kind, in this one that I'm about to tell , the husband is the more 00:10:04.475 --> 00:10:08.635 emotionally immature, I have clients right now where that is the complete opposite. 00:10:09.545 --> 00:10:11.425 Okay, let's, let's get to the story. 00:10:12.475 --> 00:10:15.295 Sarah and Mike sit across from me in my office, and the tension 00:10:15.295 --> 00:10:16.825 between them is tangible. 00:10:17.885 --> 00:10:20.035 Before Sarah can even speak, Mike leans forward. 00:10:20.425 --> 00:10:22.835 I don't even know what to do anymore about her anger problems. 00:10:23.235 --> 00:10:26.055 Any gestures towards Sarah, it's like, uh, it's like I'm walking 00:10:26.055 --> 00:10:27.875 on eggshells in our very own home. 00:10:28.285 --> 00:10:30.965 Now, I noticed Sarah's physical response immediately. 00:10:31.245 --> 00:10:34.705 She shrinks slightly in her chair, her shoulders hunching forward, her 00:10:34.705 --> 00:10:38.855 eyes dart between Mike and me trying to read the room and see what is I, my 00:10:38.855 --> 00:10:40.315 thinking that she's a horrible person. 00:10:40.595 --> 00:10:43.685 It's this mixture of confusion and shame clouding her expression. 00:10:44.325 --> 00:10:46.305 I just ask is that how you see it also, Sarah? 00:10:47.115 --> 00:10:48.855 , because you can tell that she is very sensitive. 00:10:49.308 --> 00:10:51.154 I guess it's true, she says hesitantly. 00:10:51.434 --> 00:10:53.474 I have been losing my temper a lot more lately. 00:10:54.154 --> 00:10:57.664 And as Sarah speaks, the story of their previous weekend unfolds. 00:10:58.144 --> 00:11:01.654 I had to get out the family playing cards just to keep track. 00:11:02.084 --> 00:11:04.324 It was a Saturday, and their calendar looked like a 00:11:04.374 --> 00:11:05.864 complex puzzle of commitments. 00:11:06.304 --> 00:11:09.404 And all kids names and ages are changed as well. 00:11:10.494 --> 00:11:12.374 But they had a 10 year old daughter, Emma. 00:11:12.704 --> 00:11:14.334 She had soccer practice at 9 AM. 00:11:14.334 --> 00:11:17.004 Their eight year old son, Tyler had a birthday party to attend at noon. 00:11:17.364 --> 00:11:20.774 Their youngest six year old Lily had a playdate scheduled for that afternoon. 00:11:20.784 --> 00:11:23.904 Now, on top of this, it was Tyler's actual birthday and family was 00:11:23.904 --> 00:11:25.234 coming over for dinner at 6 PM. 00:11:26.374 --> 00:11:28.554 Sarah said, Mike took Tyler fishing early that morning. 00:11:28.784 --> 00:11:30.214 It's their special birthday tradition. 00:11:30.244 --> 00:11:32.094 , and her voice started the soft momentarily. 00:11:32.644 --> 00:11:34.334 She said, I handled getting Emma to soccer. 00:11:34.334 --> 00:11:37.214 And then I went grocery shopping for the party with Lily and she was 00:11:37.214 --> 00:11:38.664 right there with me the entire time. 00:11:38.674 --> 00:11:41.974 Now, by the time Sarah returned home around 1130, Mike and 00:11:41.974 --> 00:11:43.184 Tyler were back from fishing. 00:11:43.184 --> 00:11:45.604 Mike had settled in on the couch and had fallen asleep watching TV 00:11:45.604 --> 00:11:46.914 while Tyler played video games. 00:11:47.354 --> 00:11:49.484 I didn't want to wake him, Sarah said, glancing over at Mike. 00:11:49.824 --> 00:11:52.024 He and Tyler had been up since 5am for their fishing trip. 00:11:52.514 --> 00:11:55.114 So I started preparing the birthday dinner, wrapping last 00:11:55.114 --> 00:11:57.304 minute gifts, getting Tyler ready for his friend's party. 00:11:57.974 --> 00:12:00.534 And while Sarah was in the kitchen preparing food, Emma and 00:12:00.534 --> 00:12:02.084 Lily started arguing over a toy. 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:05.409 The noise escalated just as Sarah's phone buzzed with a text from 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:07.609 a neighbor reminding her that she had volunteered to help at a 00:12:07.609 --> 00:12:08.959 community fundraiser that evening. 00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:13.212 It was tied to Emma's soccer team and that if they didn't show up, 00:12:13.272 --> 00:12:15.762 that there was a chance that Emma could get fined and not play. 00:12:16.092 --> 00:12:17.882 This was a commitment that she had completely forgotten. 00:12:18.492 --> 00:12:19.682 . Sarah's voice started to crack. 00:12:19.682 --> 00:12:21.012 She said, I just broke for a moment. 00:12:21.882 --> 00:12:24.292 She said, I closed the cabinet door harder than I meant to. 00:12:24.312 --> 00:12:25.732 I wasn't really even angry. 00:12:25.732 --> 00:12:26.712 I I just felt overwhelmed. 00:12:27.176 --> 00:12:28.536 But the slam woke Mike up. 00:12:28.556 --> 00:12:32.366 Now, rather than asking what happened, his first words were, 00:12:32.426 --> 00:12:34.496 geez, hey, you need to calm down. 00:12:35.496 --> 00:12:39.286 And Sarah said, something in me just snapped when he said that. 00:12:39.556 --> 00:12:42.046 She said, I was, I was juggling everything, the kids, the 00:12:42.056 --> 00:12:44.486 birthday preparations, the forgotten commitment that night. 00:12:44.736 --> 00:12:48.066 All the while I was just trying to not disturb his nap because 00:12:48.066 --> 00:12:49.556 I didn't want to upset him. 00:12:50.136 --> 00:12:52.476 Now when Sarah expressed her frustration, Mike's response was, 00:12:53.176 --> 00:12:55.906 Why don't you just ask me for help instead of slamming things around? 00:12:56.786 --> 00:12:59.946 And as Sarah recounts this in my office, you can see the tears 00:12:59.946 --> 00:13:01.346 start to well up in her eyes. 00:13:01.896 --> 00:13:06.596 But that's the thing, Sarah says, I really don't know how asking for help will go, 00:13:06.686 --> 00:13:08.386 and she seems so hesitant to say this. 00:13:09.066 --> 00:13:11.316 She looked at me and she said, sometimes he will, he jumps right in. 00:13:11.316 --> 00:13:12.086 I so appreciate it. 00:13:12.096 --> 00:13:12.806 And I know he's busy. 00:13:12.806 --> 00:13:13.916 I know he's overwhelmed with work. 00:13:13.916 --> 00:13:17.796 I know he's got so many things going on, but I mean, other times he does act 00:13:17.996 --> 00:13:21.196 put out or he tells me that, well, if I would just organize things better or 00:13:21.196 --> 00:13:24.526 prepare better than he wouldn't have to come in and save me or rescue me. 00:13:25.101 --> 00:13:29.611 Now this, Mike looks at me and rolls his eyes dramatically, almost like that. 00:13:29.611 --> 00:13:30.681 See what I have to deal with? 00:13:31.481 --> 00:13:34.561 He then says, everything becomes this emotional production like you're seeing 00:13:34.561 --> 00:13:38.751 now., The tears that have been threatening now just pour down Sarah's cheeks. 00:13:39.331 --> 00:13:43.011 And he sits back, folds his arms and says, well, got to wait till this is over. 00:13:43.781 --> 00:13:45.651 Her breathing starts to become rapid and shallow. 00:13:45.651 --> 00:13:48.442 And it is a textbook emotional flooding response. 00:13:48.758 --> 00:13:53.358 Now, before I go any further into this episode and this story, I 00:13:53.358 --> 00:13:57.908 want to lay out the origin story of what this episode is about. 00:13:58.688 --> 00:14:02.468 And I imagine that I will repeat this in a variety of ways throughout this 00:14:02.468 --> 00:14:07.108 episode, but it's a concept that we are going to talk about today, which typically 00:14:07.108 --> 00:14:09.438 goes by the name of reactive abuse. 00:14:10.128 --> 00:14:12.938 , and today we'll also introduce the name reactive response. 00:14:13.768 --> 00:14:16.228 So I posted this to a private women's Facebook group for women who are 00:14:16.228 --> 00:14:19.748 in relationships with narcissistic or emotionally immature entities. 00:14:20.488 --> 00:14:24.748 And I talked about How often I hear people in sessions or the questions 00:14:24.748 --> 00:14:27.938 that I get whenever I am interviewed or I go somewhere to speak about 00:14:27.948 --> 00:14:32.418 narcissism or emotional maturity, where people are saying, but I am 00:14:32.418 --> 00:14:34.948 mean to him or I am mean to her. 00:14:35.058 --> 00:14:36.438 I do lose my temper. 00:14:36.458 --> 00:14:37.158 I do yell. 00:14:37.299 --> 00:14:42.179 Where let's say that a wife then asks me or she tells me yeah, but I really do I'm 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:45.869 really mean I will yell at him So you may think that I'm this pathologically kind 00:14:45.869 --> 00:14:49.559 person, but I'm not I get really angry I get really mad or if it's the guy who's 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:53.709 in the relationship with the emotionally immature or narcissistic female where 00:14:53.709 --> 00:14:57.889 then he's saying Right, but then all of a sudden I lose my crap and that's not 00:14:57.889 --> 00:15:01.999 okay I'm a big guy or got a deep voice and I know that that's not okay for me to 00:15:01.999 --> 00:15:06.944 do I need to not do that And then I would typically circle back in and say, that was 00:15:06.944 --> 00:15:09.324 in reaction to how you were being treated. 00:15:10.854 --> 00:15:14.104 Or it sounds like it was a buildup of all the things that you had been dealing with 00:15:14.134 --> 00:15:15.984 or trying to say for a very long time. 00:15:16.894 --> 00:15:20.944 But then at some point your body does keep the score and you can't hold it in any 00:15:20.944 --> 00:15:23.234 longer and it comes out with big emotion. 00:15:23.934 --> 00:15:26.364 And then here's where I would introduce the phrase that I 00:15:26.384 --> 00:15:27.304 thought was very powerful. 00:15:27.304 --> 00:15:29.784 And for some people it was reactive abuse. 00:15:30.814 --> 00:15:34.974 And for a lot of people that resonates and they say, okay, that, that makes sense. 00:15:36.004 --> 00:15:41.784 I am reacting to the emotional or verbal abuse that I'm receiving. 00:15:42.169 --> 00:15:43.089 It is a reaction. 00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:45.209 I may not be proud of it, but it is a reaction. 00:15:45.789 --> 00:15:48.609 But for others, they still just had a hard time with that concept. 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.989 So I've been mulling on this for a long time and I couldn't quite put my finger 00:15:52.989 --> 00:15:57.059 on why that just wasn't this instant relief for so many of the pathologically 00:15:57.059 --> 00:16:00.989 kind people that have been pushed to this edge where then they react, they 00:16:00.999 --> 00:16:02.739 get big and their emotions come out. 00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:03.339 Now in this private women's 00:16:05.419 --> 00:16:09.369 Facebook group, I have a call, a group call every other week. 00:16:10.289 --> 00:16:14.469 And as my men's emotional architects group ramps up, we'll also have 00:16:14.489 --> 00:16:18.299 calls every other week, but in this one, , before I answered questions, 00:16:18.319 --> 00:16:22.609 I posed this, I said, okay, I said, I want to spend some time here. 00:16:22.609 --> 00:16:25.749 I really want to understand what is it about the concept or the term reactive 00:16:25.769 --> 00:16:32.199 abuse is so difficult for some of you women in the group to, to take in. 00:16:32.964 --> 00:16:36.724 And then one lady laid it out so beautifully, she said, okay, the fact 00:16:36.724 --> 00:16:42.254 that we're talking about reactive abuse means that my response then is abusive. 00:16:43.304 --> 00:16:45.984 She said, because if I'm matching what he is saying, and we're saying that he 00:16:45.984 --> 00:16:51.934 is abusing me, even if it's this reactive abuse, even if it's from the emotional 00:16:51.934 --> 00:16:53.634 abuse , that he has inflicted on me. 00:16:54.334 --> 00:16:59.734 Then what I'm hearing is that I am also now an abuser and that's not okay. 00:17:00.374 --> 00:17:03.794 And since that call, I've now shared that with a number of people in sessions. 00:17:04.314 --> 00:17:08.884 And I will say every time, honestly, it says, if you watch that person whether in 00:17:08.884 --> 00:17:13.034 my office or on a virtual session where they all of a sudden perk up and now they 00:17:13.034 --> 00:17:18.554 do feel a little more understood and lean forward and say, okay, that's it because 00:17:18.574 --> 00:17:21.234 I am not somebody that talks that way. 00:17:21.364 --> 00:17:21.854 Yes. 00:17:22.314 --> 00:17:25.164 But I definitely don't want to see myself as someone that would ever 00:17:25.224 --> 00:17:26.944 abuse someone like that emotionally. 00:17:28.434 --> 00:17:32.774 And even if I am the victim of that abuse that causes me 00:17:32.774 --> 00:17:35.004 to react, that's unacceptable. 00:17:36.214 --> 00:17:40.294 So even when I am saying, but your body keeps a score, or even if I'm saying it's 00:17:40.294 --> 00:17:43.914 a visceral response and your emotions are traveling two and a half times faster 00:17:43.915 --> 00:17:48.094 than your logical brain because that's a beautiful built in defense mechanism, 00:17:50.254 --> 00:17:51.554 it's there to protect us. 00:17:52.234 --> 00:17:55.144 But what that person is saying is, I hear you. 00:17:55.679 --> 00:17:56.559 But it's not okay. 00:17:56.729 --> 00:17:58.219 I want to not do that. 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:03.519 And what's so difficult about that is it requires one of a few things. 00:18:03.539 --> 00:18:06.799 One, to be sure, to be aware of it during the buildup, to be able to 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.899 express yourself early and often, so you don't get to the point 00:18:09.899 --> 00:18:11.149 where you explode emotionally. 00:18:11.989 --> 00:18:14.379 And as you're going to hear more with Mike and Sarah and some of the other 00:18:14.379 --> 00:18:18.239 examples today, more than likely, if you've been listening to this podcast, 00:18:18.249 --> 00:18:21.759 you've been in situations where you've believed that you have tried to express 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.189 yourself and it has not gone very well. 00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:24.489 So what do you do there? 00:18:25.439 --> 00:18:27.689 Our hope is that we're going to learn to become more differentiated. 00:18:27.699 --> 00:18:31.399 You learn to know who you are without needing others to tell you. 00:18:31.925 --> 00:18:36.084 necessarily relying on external validation. 00:18:36.184 --> 00:18:39.344 I would like for them to know, but I don't need them to know in order 00:18:39.344 --> 00:18:42.644 for me to know that it's okay for me to think and feel the way I do. 00:18:44.129 --> 00:18:48.479 I need to learn who I am without needing others to tell me who I am. 00:18:48.499 --> 00:18:51.459 I need to learn to calm my own anxiety, soothe myself, and 00:18:51.459 --> 00:18:53.109 again, be grounded in my response. 00:18:53.139 --> 00:18:57.199 I don't have to overreact or go too big, but I also don't play small, because 00:18:57.199 --> 00:18:59.769 I think that's where we start to feel like we are betraying our own sense of 00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:04.689 self, and I think that can over time lead to these big emotional explosions. 00:19:04.989 --> 00:19:08.809 And also, I'm willing to take ownership of my own stuff and make reasonable effort. 00:19:10.294 --> 00:19:12.974 I'll embrace the growth, the growth that comes from discomfort, all those 00:19:12.974 --> 00:19:14.574 wonderful concepts of differentiation. 00:19:15.514 --> 00:19:16.374 But then I do that. 00:19:16.554 --> 00:19:18.944 And if I'm in a relationship with an emotionally immature partner, 00:19:18.984 --> 00:19:22.244 and again, starting from a basis of we're all emotionally immature 00:19:22.264 --> 00:19:25.594 until we're not, then that person doesn't applaud your efforts of becoming more 00:19:25.594 --> 00:19:28.274 grounded and becoming more differentiated and setting healthy boundaries. 00:19:28.754 --> 00:19:31.944 Oh no, that emotionally immature partner of yours pushes more buttons because 00:19:31.944 --> 00:19:34.444 all of a sudden, if they don't get you to react, then they may have to 00:19:34.444 --> 00:19:37.844 deal with the fact that they are not showing up well in the relationship, 00:19:38.164 --> 00:19:40.984 that they might be the one that isn't taking ownership of their own behavior. 00:19:41.344 --> 00:19:43.544 And that is why you are now responding. 00:19:44.614 --> 00:19:47.844 So there's a lot of dynamics going on underneath the surface 00:19:47.864 --> 00:19:50.054 of this seemingly simple. 00:19:50.994 --> 00:19:56.764 Interaction between Sarah and Mike, but I wanted to just frame that for 00:19:56.764 --> 00:20:01.744 today's episode that we're talking about reactive response, reactive abuse. 00:20:03.714 --> 00:20:05.894 And as we go throughout the rest of this episode today, 00:20:05.894 --> 00:20:10.104 I will most likely refer to it as reactive response, but if reactive abuse is the 00:20:10.104 --> 00:20:13.684 thing that really speaks to you, then you know that, okay, that makes more 00:20:13.684 --> 00:20:16.494 sense to me is why I'm reacting this way. 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:18.249 And then that is wonderful. 00:20:18.399 --> 00:20:20.109 But if you're somebody that says, okay, that almost makes 00:20:20.109 --> 00:20:23.639 me feel worse, then let's, let's call it your reactive response. 00:20:23.659 --> 00:20:28.029 It's your reaction, your response to this behavior that you are receiving. 00:20:28.889 --> 00:20:33.129 And I would love to help give you grace , about that response. 00:20:33.999 --> 00:20:37.479 Because now that you're learning about what this whole concept is, or this 00:20:37.479 --> 00:20:41.519 relationship dynamic, now we can start to work on, what do I do to heal it? 00:20:42.089 --> 00:20:44.549 Now we can start to work on it, and it will require a lot 00:20:44.549 --> 00:20:45.669 of differentiation skills. 00:20:45.670 --> 00:20:47.779 It might require boundary setting. 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:52.039 And if I'm noticing that I'm starting to get elevated, then I need to walk away. 00:20:53.224 --> 00:20:56.474 Not that, hey, you need to stop doing that, because , then we're 00:20:56.474 --> 00:20:58.574 just handing the emotionally immature or the narcissistic 00:20:58.574 --> 00:21:00.024 partner more buttons to press. 00:21:00.784 --> 00:21:04.044 So let's continue to go back and break down the game film of Sarah and Mike. 00:21:04.164 --> 00:21:07.274 But I just, I really like having that out there that we have that established. 00:21:07.679 --> 00:21:10.019 And by the end of this episode, I would love to hear back from you if 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:13.719 you resonated more with the concept of, okay, I feel more sane hearing 00:21:13.719 --> 00:21:15.329 that it's just a natural response. 00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:19.169 It's to this reactive abuse, or if you feel more validated or it makes more 00:21:19.169 --> 00:21:23.639 sense to you to say, I might be receiving that, but I don't like thinking of 00:21:23.679 --> 00:21:26.139 me as one who would abuse my partner. 00:21:26.404 --> 00:21:30.674 It is a response, and I would love to get your examples as you hear more 00:21:30.674 --> 00:21:33.654 about these nuances as you hear about the examples today, because I think the 00:21:33.654 --> 00:21:36.584 more stories that we can get out there and share about what resonates with you, 00:21:37.304 --> 00:21:40.744 the more I think the people that continue to listen to the podcast start to feel 00:21:40.834 --> 00:21:45.834 heard and understood, and that is a huge lift to their emotional baseline to put 00:21:45.834 --> 00:21:49.994 them in a position Where they can start to heal themselves now, immediately in, 00:21:50.064 --> 00:21:51.954 even in these unhealthy relationships. 00:21:53.144 --> 00:21:54.244 So back to the story. 00:21:54.244 --> 00:21:58.234 Let's analyze what really is happening in this dynamic between Sarah and Mike. 00:21:58.254 --> 00:21:59.574 I call it invisible labor. 00:21:59.734 --> 00:22:05.424 Sarah is carrying the mental and emotional load of, it feels like 99 percent of the 00:22:05.424 --> 00:22:10.474 household managing schedules, remembering commitments, anticipating needs, and this 00:22:10.894 --> 00:22:13.244 invisible labor remains unacknowledged. 00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:15.539 And , there is a cost to pay. 00:22:16.019 --> 00:22:18.399 It is a significant burning of emotional calories, 00:22:18.399 --> 00:22:20.269 and can leave one feeling depleted. 00:22:20.269 --> 00:22:23.329 But let's now dip into the emotional immaturity signals from Mike. 00:22:24.209 --> 00:22:28.779 I think it's safe to say that Mike lacks awareness of others experiences. 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.829 Honestly, while Sarah is managing multiple responsibilities. 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:34.709 He's dismissing emotional responses. 00:22:35.459 --> 00:22:37.089 Telling her to do things like calm down. 00:22:38.604 --> 00:22:40.524 Making her emotional response about him. 00:22:40.634 --> 00:22:43.864 See what I have to deal with offering criticisms instead of support, 00:22:44.094 --> 00:22:47.644 public undermining, eye rolling, zero curiosity about her experience. 00:22:48.464 --> 00:22:50.564 And it puts Sarah in a bit of a double bind. 00:22:50.634 --> 00:22:52.624 Sarah's caught in a no end situation. 00:22:52.624 --> 00:22:57.527 If she asks for help, she now knows that she risks criticism or this reluctant 00:22:57.527 --> 00:22:59.665 assistance that creates more tension. 00:22:59.905 --> 00:23:02.375 And it can most likely come with a price. 00:23:03.005 --> 00:23:04.085 Well, I did this for you. 00:23:04.225 --> 00:23:05.305 Now, what are you going to do for me? 00:23:06.105 --> 00:23:09.755 If she handles the things herself and shows any stress, then she's labeled as 00:23:09.755 --> 00:23:12.085 emotionally unstable or underprepared. 00:23:13.305 --> 00:23:16.215 Mike is also engaging in emotional invalidation. 00:23:16.295 --> 00:23:19.265 Every emotional response from Sarah is framed as a problem, an 00:23:19.265 --> 00:23:23.305 overreaction, a character flaw, rather than she's a normal human being 00:23:23.315 --> 00:23:24.655 that is going through an experience. 00:23:25.030 --> 00:23:27.950 Which, by the way, for the first time, in that moment, all 00:23:27.950 --> 00:23:29.010 those things coming together. 00:23:29.020 --> 00:23:30.120 There is no playbook for that. 00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:33.860 She's just having a normal human reaction to being overwhelmed. 00:23:34.086 --> 00:23:35.006 Pattern recognition. 00:23:35.446 --> 00:23:40.026 Sarah's statement about never knowing how asking for help is going to go, indicates 00:23:40.026 --> 00:23:43.876 that this is not an isolated incident, but it's a repeated pattern that has taught 00:23:43.886 --> 00:23:46.436 her to expect inconsistent responses. 00:23:46.966 --> 00:23:49.366 She does not feel emotional safety. 00:23:49.861 --> 00:23:51.691 Because of his emotional inconsistency. 00:23:52.851 --> 00:23:55.921 Now, Sarah's slamming of the cabinet it wasn't a random anger issue. 00:23:55.921 --> 00:23:59.601 It was a pressure release valve after a prolonged emotional strain. 00:24:00.201 --> 00:24:03.451 Her emotional response in my office isn't evidence of instability. 00:24:03.451 --> 00:24:05.941 It's her body's natural reaction to having her reality questioned 00:24:06.251 --> 00:24:09.501 while simultaneously feeling shamed and wondering if she has this. 00:24:09.896 --> 00:24:13.906 opportunity to maybe get help or feel heard from the therapist. 00:24:14.676 --> 00:24:17.896 So this is just such a classic example of how someone can be pushed into 00:24:17.896 --> 00:24:21.796 a reactive state through sustained emotional dismissal and then these 00:24:21.826 --> 00:24:23.396 unbalanced relationship dynamics. 00:24:23.566 --> 00:24:25.246 Sarah isn't developing anger problems. 00:24:25.256 --> 00:24:28.516 She's experiencing the natural consequences of emotional invalidation 00:24:28.616 --> 00:24:29.896 and unstable expectations. 00:24:30.471 --> 00:24:34.331 It can start to sound a little bit bipolar y, borderline y, just meaning 00:24:34.331 --> 00:24:38.441 that when she finally does feel heard and understood, it can be euphoric and she 00:24:38.441 --> 00:24:39.981 wants to just soak every bit of that up. 00:24:40.231 --> 00:24:45.651 But then it can switch so quickly based off of his reaction that then she can 00:24:45.751 --> 00:24:50.211 pull back and withdraw and then even be labeled more as the crazy one. 00:24:52.241 --> 00:24:53.391 So let's reframe this a little bit. 00:24:53.391 --> 00:24:55.461 Imagine that you are just a peaceful person. 00:24:55.471 --> 00:24:58.271 You value kindness and respect, and then imagine being placed 00:24:58.271 --> 00:25:00.671 in an environment where your reality is constantly questioned. 00:25:01.071 --> 00:25:03.791 Your boundaries are repeatedly violated and your emotional well 00:25:03.801 --> 00:25:05.961 being is continually undermined. 00:25:06.571 --> 00:25:10.561 Eventually, your nervous system simply can't take it anymore, and you will 00:25:10.561 --> 00:25:14.121 respond with behaviors that don't align with who you know yourself to be. 00:25:14.776 --> 00:25:18.056 Maybe you will start to yell or slam doors or say hurtful things that you later 00:25:18.056 --> 00:25:22.726 regret or play small or lose yourself and not do the things that you like to do. 00:25:23.686 --> 00:25:28.456 Now, this is not you becoming an abuser and this is your mind and 00:25:28.456 --> 00:25:31.386 your body's natural alarm system going off after too much stress. 00:25:32.286 --> 00:25:35.236 It is like the difference between somebody who routinely starts fires 00:25:35.236 --> 00:25:38.196 for fun versus somebody who pulls a fire alarm because they smell smoke. 00:25:38.736 --> 00:25:42.116 Both actions create noise and disruption, and there is fire involved, 00:25:42.546 --> 00:25:45.696 but the intent, the pattern, and the context are entirely different. 00:25:47.416 --> 00:25:49.596 So I think it's so important that we explore this crucial 00:25:49.596 --> 00:25:52.636 distinction between reactive response and actual abusive behavior. 00:25:52.636 --> 00:25:52.926 I 00:25:53.906 --> 00:25:56.796 think it's important to talk more about why these things 00:25:56.796 --> 00:25:59.906 happen and that will lead you to learn how to better recognize it. 00:25:59.916 --> 00:26:03.346 And more importantly, how to reconnect with your authentic self when you've 00:26:03.346 --> 00:26:04.986 been pushed into these reactive states, 00:26:04.986 --> 00:26:07.756 because understanding this difference isn't just about terminology it's 00:26:07.756 --> 00:26:11.236 about releasing the shame and the confusion that then keeps people 00:26:11.356 --> 00:26:12.876 stuck in these harmful situations. 00:26:13.826 --> 00:26:18.276 So before I continue down this reactive response path, I really want to establish 00:26:18.276 --> 00:26:21.386 a couple of important frameworks that I think will help explain why 00:26:21.776 --> 00:26:25.336 these relationship dynamics become so entrenched and difficult to escape. 00:26:25.966 --> 00:26:28.096 Often talk about the pathologically kind partner. 00:26:28.596 --> 00:26:31.516 In my many years as a couples therapist, most of the struggling 00:26:31.516 --> 00:26:35.286 relationships I see don't involve two equally dysfunctional people. 00:26:35.506 --> 00:26:37.466 We've got all of our own brand of dysfunction. 00:26:37.906 --> 00:26:42.346 And that's where I typically see the, what I call the pathologically kind spouse 00:26:42.766 --> 00:26:47.226 paired with an, And even more emotionally immature partner writing right up to the 00:26:47.766 --> 00:26:51.836 line of narcissistic traits, tendencies, or narcissistic personality disorder. 00:26:52.606 --> 00:26:56.426 And I think it's so important to, to recognize kindness itself is beautiful. 00:26:56.606 --> 00:26:59.406 Healthy kindness is an amazing thing. 00:27:00.036 --> 00:27:03.856 But I think we don't often know what healthy kindness looks like because 00:27:03.856 --> 00:27:07.246 it does come with setting appropriate boundaries while still being generous. 00:27:07.816 --> 00:27:10.806 Think of somebody who would genuinely enjoy hosting family gatherings, but 00:27:10.806 --> 00:27:14.396 they clearly communicate that they need things to end at 10 because 00:27:14.396 --> 00:27:15.666 they have to work the next day. 00:27:16.226 --> 00:27:18.816 They're generous with their home, they're generous with their time, but they 00:27:18.816 --> 00:27:23.276 are aware of and protecting their own needs, staying connected to themselves. 00:27:23.906 --> 00:27:26.896 So they're offering support without sacrificing their own wellbeing. 00:27:28.126 --> 00:27:32.656 Healthy kindness is someone that learns to feel, I don't know if we 00:27:32.656 --> 00:27:37.296 would say comfortable, but they learn that saying no is okay when necessary. 00:27:38.376 --> 00:27:42.106 Think of somebody that would decline to volunteer at a school fundraiser during 00:27:42.106 --> 00:27:45.116 a particularly busy work period, or when they have a whole lot of things going 00:27:45.116 --> 00:27:48.466 on in their home, offering instead to contribute in a way that fits their 00:27:48.466 --> 00:27:51.426 current capacity, maybe making a donation or helping at a future event. 00:27:52.671 --> 00:27:56.291 And this is one that can sound like I am encouraging the tit for 00:27:56.291 --> 00:28:03.451 tat, which I am not, but I think healthy kindness can look like. 00:28:05.041 --> 00:28:07.141 Mutually reciprocal relationships, 00:28:09.951 --> 00:28:13.101 because if someone is the one who continues to initiate all the get 00:28:13.101 --> 00:28:17.231 togethers with the friend for months, or if you're the one that does the lion's 00:28:17.231 --> 00:28:21.461 share of the driving, even though you both have kids going and to and from 00:28:21.621 --> 00:28:25.711 the same activities, and I'm saying that this isn't the case where the other 00:28:25.771 --> 00:28:30.481 parent is unavailable, But kindness is a pathology is when it starts to 00:28:30.481 --> 00:28:32.691 become detrimental to your health. 00:28:33.391 --> 00:28:38.001 And sometimes that detriment can just even be in the frustration if you know 00:28:38.051 --> 00:28:39.731 that you are willing to do everything. 00:28:39.731 --> 00:28:43.841 So the other parent says, well, I mean, if you probably like doing 00:28:43.841 --> 00:28:45.751 it so you can continue to do it. 00:28:46.721 --> 00:28:49.661 So healthy kindness can be recognizing when you're giving 00:28:50.141 --> 00:28:51.471 is appreciated and valued. 00:28:51.601 --> 00:28:54.491 And if you do value reciprocity when. 00:28:55.046 --> 00:28:56.246 It is reciprocated. 00:28:57.246 --> 00:29:00.886 Now, kindness becomes pathological when you consistently prioritize others 00:29:00.886 --> 00:29:02.856 needs above your own essential needs. 00:29:03.496 --> 00:29:07.346 I think about people that haven't been to a doctor in years, despite very 00:29:07.346 --> 00:29:11.516 obvious or concerning symptoms, because they're in essence, too busy taking 00:29:11.516 --> 00:29:15.026 everyone else to the places that they need to go helping neighbors with errands 00:29:15.156 --> 00:29:16.786 or covering for colleagues at work. 00:29:18.356 --> 00:29:22.286 Pathological kindness often looks like someone who feels guilty 00:29:22.286 --> 00:29:23.556 about setting any boundaries. 00:29:24.061 --> 00:29:27.461 Somebody who answers work calls during their child's recital or their anniversary 00:29:27.461 --> 00:29:31.821 dinner or at 2 a. m. because saying I'm unavailable right now makes them feel bad. 00:29:32.401 --> 00:29:35.991 They don't want this other person to think that I am a bad person. 00:29:36.941 --> 00:29:41.671 It makes them feel selfish even though no emergency necessarily exists. 00:29:42.791 --> 00:29:45.896 Pathological kindness is believing it's selfish to take care of yourself. 00:29:46.836 --> 00:29:50.836 Think of somebody who apologizes profusely for quickly grabbing a 00:29:50.836 --> 00:29:54.236 bite to eat before they go somewhere because they're running behind. 00:29:55.786 --> 00:29:59.896 Or someone who apologizes profusely , if they weren't able to respond to 00:29:59.896 --> 00:30:02.343 somebody else's text immediately. 00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:05.730 Pathological kindness looks like somebody who stays in harmful situations because 00:30:05.750 --> 00:30:07.540 leaving would hurt the other person. 00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:10.860 Think of somebody who remains in a relationship where they're regularly 00:30:10.870 --> 00:30:14.060 belittled and criticized because, well, I worry that he would be devastated 00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:18.110 if I left, or he doesn't really know how to find the emails from the 00:30:18.110 --> 00:30:21.940 school, or she doesn't have anyone else who understands her like I do. 00:30:21.940 --> 00:30:25.433 Making excuses for somebody else's poor treatment is the 00:30:25.433 --> 00:30:27.140 sign of the pathologically kind. 00:30:29.065 --> 00:30:32.405 I often see people who explain away their partner's cruel comments with, 00:30:32.445 --> 00:30:35.365 you know, he's just really stressed with work, or she really didn't mean it. 00:30:35.375 --> 00:30:36.525 She's she just didn't get it. 00:30:36.525 --> 00:30:38.175 She's, she's getting a lot of sleep. 00:30:38.235 --> 00:30:41.055 She didn't get a lot of sleep when that behavior has been consistent for years. 00:30:42.705 --> 00:30:45.415 Pathological kindness is someone who keeps giving despite receiving 00:30:45.415 --> 00:30:46.705 little or nothing in return. 00:30:47.295 --> 00:30:49.953 Think of somebody who continues lending money to a friend who never 00:30:49.953 --> 00:30:54.145 repays it drives a relative who never offers gas money, or somebody 00:30:54.145 --> 00:30:57.195 who takes on extra projects for a colleague who then takes all the credit. 00:30:58.020 --> 00:31:02.140 And I would imagine those last examples were probably pretty awkward or difficult 00:31:02.140 --> 00:31:07.680 for people because it's easy for me to say, but it's okay, I'm happy to do that. 00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.550 But that might be where that kindness is pathological. 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:16.760 What are you giving up in order to make things easier for this 00:31:16.770 --> 00:31:18.950 person to the detriment of yourself? 00:31:20.165 --> 00:31:23.535 I see this often, the pathologically kind spends far too long in trying 00:31:23.535 --> 00:31:28.315 to craft the perfect message or the perfect text if they are trying to 00:31:28.565 --> 00:31:31.995 ask for something, request something simple from their partner because 00:31:31.995 --> 00:31:35.265 they're trying to anticipate and prevent any possible negative reaction. 00:31:35.845 --> 00:31:37.715 And they still end up apologizing repeatedly if 00:31:37.725 --> 00:31:39.105 the person gets upset anyway. 00:31:39.985 --> 00:31:44.525 So I think these examples, I tried to find ones that are going to be a little 00:31:44.525 --> 00:31:49.975 difficult to hear because they will sound selfish, but self care is not selfish. 00:31:50.695 --> 00:31:53.445 I think these examples show how healthy kindness maintains 00:31:53.445 --> 00:31:55.045 personal integrity and balance. 00:31:56.360 --> 00:32:01.900 And pathological kindness becomes somewhat self erasing and ultimately unsustainable. 00:32:02.070 --> 00:32:03.670 You will lose your sense of self. 00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:08.510 And remember, pathological kindness is not a character flaw because it stems 00:32:08.510 --> 00:32:12.530 from childhood experiences where you learned that your value was tied to taking 00:32:12.530 --> 00:32:14.420 care of others or keeping the peace. 00:32:15.490 --> 00:32:18.830 You were most likely a human doing, not a human being. 00:32:19.580 --> 00:32:23.040 The counterpart in these relationships is the emotionally immature partner. 00:32:23.040 --> 00:32:23.790 Now what does that mean? 00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:27.270 I want to give you a few brief examples to illustrate that as well. 00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:30.970 The emotionally immature partner has a lot of difficulty identifying 00:32:30.970 --> 00:32:32.200 and expressing feelings. 00:32:32.270 --> 00:32:35.490 Think of somebody who can't distinguish between feeling sad or angry or anxious. 00:32:36.020 --> 00:32:39.430 They just know they feel bad and they responded by shutting down or lashing out. 00:32:40.130 --> 00:32:41.940 Now when asked how they feel, they might say, fine. 00:32:43.115 --> 00:32:45.655 Or they might explode with, well, I'm not good and you're making me 00:32:45.655 --> 00:32:49.465 crazy, but what they're actually experiencing is maybe disappointment 00:32:49.765 --> 00:32:51.285 or frustration or embarrassment. 00:32:52.855 --> 00:32:55.915 The emotionally immature have limited empathy for others emotional experiences. 00:32:55.935 --> 00:32:58.435 You can think of somebody who responds to their partner's work promotion with 00:32:58.435 --> 00:33:01.975 concerns about how that new schedule is going to inconvenience them, completely 00:33:01.975 --> 00:33:03.375 missing their partner's excitement. 00:33:03.815 --> 00:33:06.985 Or somebody who responds to a friend's grief by saying, well, you know, at least 00:33:06.985 --> 00:33:11.125 they lived a long life or yeah, no, I know exactly what that's like I've had, 00:33:11.185 --> 00:33:14.125 and then they make it about them and how they dealt with it immediately changing 00:33:14.125 --> 00:33:18.605 the subject because at the core of that emotional pain makes them uncomfortable. 00:33:19.435 --> 00:33:22.705 But a big one from the emotionally mature is externalizing blame 00:33:22.705 --> 00:33:23.945 rather than taking responsibility. 00:33:23.945 --> 00:33:26.655 You can think of somebody who arrives late to every gathering, but always 00:33:26.655 --> 00:33:29.315 has a very elaborate explanation involving traffic and other people and 00:33:29.315 --> 00:33:32.005 circumstances beyond their control and how they're saving the world at work 00:33:32.005 --> 00:33:33.655 and how nobody understands what they do. 00:33:35.310 --> 00:33:37.890 Couldn't be about not planning to leave early 00:33:40.040 --> 00:33:42.560 or when they're confronted, they might say things like, well, if you hadn't chosen 00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:45.770 a restaurant so far away or a time , that was more convenient for, I'm sure all 00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:47.130 of us just never would have happened. 00:33:48.330 --> 00:33:52.330 The emotionally immature also exhibit poor impulse control and emotional regulation. 00:33:52.450 --> 00:33:56.180 The, if somebody who becomes very, very agitated when waiting in line, sighing 00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:59.900 loudly, making sarcastic comments somebody who responds to minor frustrations, 00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:02.990 like a spilled drink by throwing things or cursing or storming out of the 00:34:02.990 --> 00:34:05.370 room and emotionally immature people. 00:34:05.765 --> 00:34:08.945 Struggle with black or white, all or nothing thinking somebody who describes 00:34:08.955 --> 00:34:12.815 others as either amazing or toxic, nothing in between, or who quits activities 00:34:12.815 --> 00:34:15.505 after the first setback, because I'm just terrible at this, or this isn't 00:34:15.505 --> 00:34:19.735 fair, or they might say a former friends they're dead to me now, after a simple 00:34:19.735 --> 00:34:23.655 little disagreement, the emotionally mature, have a great difficulty 00:34:23.655 --> 00:34:25.635 tolerating criticism or perceived slights. 00:34:25.855 --> 00:34:28.265 You can think of somebody who responds to just even general feedback 00:34:28.645 --> 00:34:33.055 about something that, that was hard for me to take or to deal with. 00:34:33.525 --> 00:34:33.715 Oh yeah. 00:34:33.715 --> 00:34:35.095 Well, I guess I can't do anything right. 00:34:35.610 --> 00:34:39.020 Or who brings up a minor comment from months ago that they're still heard about. 00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:42.500 They might withdraw completely when their idea isn't chosen for a project. 00:34:42.990 --> 00:34:46.456 Or the emotionally mature immediate comfort over long term growth. 00:34:47.116 --> 00:34:49.736 Think of somebody who consistently chooses a path of least resistance, 00:34:49.756 --> 00:34:52.636 , avoiding difficult conversations, quitting challenging pursuits, 00:34:52.636 --> 00:34:55.636 making impulsive purchases they can't afford, even when those choices 00:34:55.636 --> 00:34:57.106 create bigger problems down the road. 00:34:58.436 --> 00:35:01.846 And the emotionally immature have resistance to self reflection and personal 00:35:01.846 --> 00:35:05.046 growth, even though they will tell you that they are very reflective and growing. 00:35:05.556 --> 00:35:07.756 You can think of somebody who just responds to relationship patterns 00:35:07.756 --> 00:35:10.656 of that's just the way I am, or if people can't handle me at my 00:35:10.656 --> 00:35:11.916 worst, then that's a them thing. 00:35:12.526 --> 00:35:14.976 You know, they might attend therapy only to find validation for their 00:35:14.976 --> 00:35:19.066 perspective instead of trying to understand how their contributions. 00:35:19.586 --> 00:35:24.136 May cause certain things to happen in the relationship, even negative things. 00:35:24.766 --> 00:35:27.956 And the emotionally immature use manipulation to get their needs met. 00:35:28.856 --> 00:35:32.066 Somebody who gets their way through subtle threats, subtle digs. 00:35:32.126 --> 00:35:35.296 Man, if you really loved me, or yeah, I guess I'm unlovable or guilt tripping. 00:35:35.306 --> 00:35:36.256 After all I've done for you. 00:35:36.706 --> 00:35:39.846 Or creating crises that require everybody to drop everything and help. 00:35:39.846 --> 00:35:42.886 They might forget important tasks so that somebody else will take over. 00:35:42.886 --> 00:35:45.666 Or exaggerate ailments to receive care and attention. 00:35:46.053 --> 00:35:48.833 These behaviors, these emotionally immature behaviors. 00:35:49.418 --> 00:35:51.898 often arise from underdeveloped emotional skills. 00:35:52.238 --> 00:35:57.108 I don't think that they are always from a place of malintent, but they 00:35:57.118 --> 00:36:00.358 create significant relationship problems, especially when you have 00:36:00.358 --> 00:36:03.348 that emotionally mature partner paired with a pathologically kind partner 00:36:03.528 --> 00:36:07.138 who then excuses or accommodates these behaviors instead of learning 00:36:07.138 --> 00:36:08.283 how to set healthy boundaries. 00:36:09.043 --> 00:36:12.053 And I'll go back to the concept where I don't believe that these are 00:36:12.053 --> 00:36:13.503 all necessarily conscious choices. 00:36:14.233 --> 00:36:16.843 I think so often the emotionally immature person just never developed 00:36:16.853 --> 00:36:21.243 the crucial skills to, to handle their emotions correctly because 00:36:21.243 --> 00:36:22.703 of upbringing or experiences. 00:36:22.994 --> 00:36:25.444 Ross Rosenberg, who's the author of the human magnet syndrome, I 00:36:25.444 --> 00:36:28.384 think brilliantly describes these relationships as breakup resistant. 00:36:28.914 --> 00:36:32.304 And I just have to share in a previous podcast, I had talked 00:36:32.304 --> 00:36:34.304 about insights on this phenomenon. 00:36:34.314 --> 00:36:37.794 He says, codependency is both a relationship and an individual 00:36:37.794 --> 00:36:39.784 condition that can only be resolved by the codependent. 00:36:40.724 --> 00:36:44.484 Many codependents are attracted to and maintain longterm breakup 00:36:44.484 --> 00:36:47.144 resistant relationships with pathological narcissists. 00:36:48.359 --> 00:36:51.599 Ross said that most codependents are selfless and differential to the needs 00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.919 and desires of others over themselves. 00:36:54.449 --> 00:36:58.139 He said they're pathologically caring, responsible, and sacrificing 00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:00.789 people whose altruism and good deeds are rarely reciprocated. 00:37:01.869 --> 00:37:04.709 While some codependents are resigned to their seemingly permanent relationship 00:37:04.709 --> 00:37:07.999 role, he said others actively, albeit unsuccessfully, attempt to change it. 00:37:08.669 --> 00:37:12.239 These people become preoccupied with opportunities to avoid, change, and or 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.629 control their narcissistic partners. 00:37:15.104 --> 00:37:17.764 Now, despite the inequities in their relationship and the 00:37:17.764 --> 00:37:20.854 suffering that that brings on, they do not end the partnerships. 00:37:21.394 --> 00:37:24.500 He said, codependency is not just limited to romantic relationships. 00:37:24.855 --> 00:37:28.565 As it manifests itself in varying degrees and most other significant relationships. 00:37:28.585 --> 00:37:32.215 And this is what Ross says creates Human Magnet Syndrome. 00:37:33.145 --> 00:37:37.365 Now, the reason I like going back to that is he said a pathologically caring and 00:37:37.365 --> 00:37:41.165 then he named other traits of the person and I thought he said pathologically kind. 00:37:41.565 --> 00:37:44.235 So now I guess I get to, to own that one. 00:37:44.345 --> 00:37:45.852 That that is a me thing. 00:37:46.132 --> 00:37:49.082 So I believe that the harder the pathologically kind person tries 00:37:49.082 --> 00:37:51.382 to figure out the relationship, the crazier they feel. 00:37:52.017 --> 00:37:54.467 Meanwhile, the narcissist or the emotionally immature person learns 00:37:54.467 --> 00:37:57.687 consciously or subconsciously how to manipulate the dynamic for their gain. 00:37:57.947 --> 00:38:01.537 The more that they engage, the more the pathologically kind person hands them 00:38:01.557 --> 00:38:06.297 over buttons to push that will keep them stuck in this, what will feel like a never 00:38:06.297 --> 00:38:08.147 ending relationship pattern of negativity. 00:38:09.497 --> 00:38:12.627 Understanding these fundamentals, I think, helps understand why reactive 00:38:12.627 --> 00:38:15.887 responses occur and why they're so often mischaracterized as abuse, because 00:38:15.897 --> 00:38:18.457 when somebody with that pathological kindness finally reaches their breaking 00:38:18.457 --> 00:38:21.987 point , after a sustained period of emotional neglect or manipulation, 00:38:22.327 --> 00:38:24.457 their reactions aren't abusive. 00:38:24.457 --> 00:38:25.147 They're inevitable. 00:38:26.047 --> 00:38:27.707 Now that we've established this foundation, 00:38:27.957 --> 00:38:30.807 Let's explore how the dynamics set the stage for what's often 00:38:30.807 --> 00:38:32.147 then mislabeled as abuse. 00:38:33.327 --> 00:38:36.557 When a pathologically kind person with strong emotional awareness is paired 00:38:36.557 --> 00:38:40.027 with this emotionally immature partner, then we see this predictable pattern. 00:38:40.612 --> 00:38:44.262 The pattern creates a perfect condition for what I think would 00:38:44.392 --> 00:38:47.262 be more accurately described as something like a reactive distress 00:38:47.282 --> 00:38:49.712 response rather than reactive abuse. 00:38:51.092 --> 00:38:55.172 I want to give you some other examples from the office of the marriage therapist, 00:38:55.172 --> 00:38:56.552 where all the details have been changed. 00:38:57.162 --> 00:39:00.022 But I want to show how these patterns of emotional immaturity and narcissism 00:39:01.622 --> 00:39:04.102 lead to these reactive responses. 00:39:04.705 --> 00:39:06.585 Too often I see patterns of intimidation. 00:39:06.935 --> 00:39:10.155 Think of a husband who uses his physical presence his voice, his size to 00:39:10.155 --> 00:39:11.525 control the interactions with his wife. 00:39:12.355 --> 00:39:15.835 He never technically hits her, but he corners her during arguments, he blocks 00:39:15.835 --> 00:39:19.665 doorways when she tries to disengage, , kicks furniture when frustrated, 00:39:19.685 --> 00:39:21.415 and he punches walls near her head. 00:39:22.055 --> 00:39:24.835 When she expresses opinions he disagrees with, he looms 00:39:24.835 --> 00:39:26.285 over her until she backs down. 00:39:26.925 --> 00:39:30.065 And at night then he deliberately disrupts her sleep, he turns on lights, he makes 00:39:30.065 --> 00:39:31.923 noise if she's upset him earlier. 00:39:31.923 --> 00:39:35.629 His friends and family see him as passionate but harmless, because 00:39:35.629 --> 00:39:38.998 he's a good provider, but she lives in constant hypervigilance. 00:39:39.562 --> 00:39:42.022 So how might the reactive response come into play? 00:39:42.702 --> 00:39:47.182 Well, in this scenario, after three years of this escalating pattern, an 00:39:47.182 --> 00:39:49.142 argument about finances starts to spiral. 00:39:49.792 --> 00:39:53.332 And then he follows her from room to room as she tries to create distance, 00:39:53.462 --> 00:39:57.232 eventually backing her into the bedroom, where he blocks the only exit, 00:39:57.372 --> 00:39:59.702 screaming about her disrespecting him. 00:40:00.732 --> 00:40:04.472 And when her repeated requests for him to move are ignored, and he steps 00:40:04.472 --> 00:40:07.782 closer, she pushes him hard enough to move him from the doorway, she 00:40:07.782 --> 00:40:09.292 screams, and she runs to her car. 00:40:09.832 --> 00:40:13.142 Later, when he tells family that she attacked him, she's overwhelmed with 00:40:13.142 --> 00:40:16.952 shame, and confusion about whether she's being too abusive as well. 00:40:18.272 --> 00:40:22.487 Or another example, I once worked with a wife who presented as a very 00:40:22.487 --> 00:40:26.257 sweet and accommodating person to the outside world, but you could see 00:40:26.257 --> 00:40:28.957 the way that she would systematically undermine her husband's confidence. 00:40:29.437 --> 00:40:32.297 She would never raise her voice or make direct criticisms, but would 00:40:32.297 --> 00:40:35.117 respond to his accomplishments with just little dismissals. 00:40:35.217 --> 00:40:36.327 Oh, I mean that that's nice. 00:40:36.907 --> 00:40:40.947 I mean his brother seems to have that figured out better in their 00:40:40.947 --> 00:40:44.017 family or she amplifies his mistakes. 00:40:44.877 --> 00:40:49.057 He mentioned something that he's done well, and she quickly says well, 00:40:49.057 --> 00:40:52.002 it's about time because remember when you messed this thing up Or when he 00:40:52.002 --> 00:40:55.872 expresses hurt feelings, she sighs deeply and says, man, you are sensitive. 00:40:55.942 --> 00:40:57.562 I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around you. 00:40:58.542 --> 00:41:01.912 So despite his dedicated financial support, where he works extra 00:41:01.912 --> 00:41:04.642 hours to make sure that she can have the lifestyle that she wants, 00:41:05.392 --> 00:41:07.402 they consult on all financial decisions. 00:41:07.432 --> 00:41:11.682 And then he prioritizes her wishes for things like home renovation, vacations. 00:41:12.182 --> 00:41:15.762 She periodically suggests to friends and family that he's controlling with money. 00:41:16.802 --> 00:41:19.332 Now when they're alone, she'll say things like, I feel financially 00:41:19.342 --> 00:41:20.552 trapped in this marriage. 00:41:20.552 --> 00:41:23.832 Or, most husbands wouldn't make their wives account for every penny. 00:41:24.232 --> 00:41:26.202 But in reality, she has full access to their accounts. 00:41:27.097 --> 00:41:29.637 A very generous personal spending allowance and he frequently 00:41:29.637 --> 00:41:30.617 surprises her with gifts. 00:41:31.227 --> 00:41:34.417 But when he presents evidence of this financial generosity, 00:41:34.467 --> 00:41:35.557 then she shifts tactics. 00:41:36.267 --> 00:41:37.527 Oh, we're keeping score? 00:41:37.647 --> 00:41:40.547 Or, it's not about the money itself, it's about how you make me feel about money. 00:41:41.517 --> 00:41:45.417 She knows his people pleasing nature means that these accusations devastate him. 00:41:45.817 --> 00:41:48.167 It sends him into cycles of overcompensating, taking on 00:41:48.167 --> 00:41:51.127 additional work to increase their income, or insisting that she make 00:41:51.127 --> 00:41:52.647 major purchases without consulting. 00:41:53.817 --> 00:41:56.587 Or she says, I need to be able to make these major purchases without 00:41:56.587 --> 00:41:58.887 consulting you because I can't trust you, how you're going to react. 00:41:59.877 --> 00:42:02.667 Or even in one scenario that I worked with, transferring his inheritance 00:42:02.667 --> 00:42:04.407 into her name to prove trust. 00:42:05.277 --> 00:42:09.257 No matter what changes he makes, she never acknowledges his efforts or 00:42:09.257 --> 00:42:10.807 her role in creating the dynamic. 00:42:10.867 --> 00:42:13.417 So instead, she'll find new ways to subtly suggest that he's still 00:42:13.417 --> 00:42:17.452 somehow She forgets important events related to his family. 00:42:17.452 --> 00:42:19.872 She claims frequent headaches when it's his turn to choose 00:42:19.872 --> 00:42:23.432 activities and withdraws affection after minor disagreements while 00:42:23.432 --> 00:42:24.782 denying that anything's wrong. 00:42:25.482 --> 00:42:28.752 And when he tries to discuss relationship issues, she tears up and she whispers, 00:42:29.132 --> 00:42:30.662 just try so hard to make you happy. 00:42:31.752 --> 00:42:34.212 Now here comes his reactive response after. 00:42:34.652 --> 00:42:37.672 Seven, eight years of this dynamic there at a family gathering where 00:42:37.672 --> 00:42:41.882 she spent hours and hours subtly undermining him on a long car ride there, 00:42:41.992 --> 00:42:46.112 finishing his stories with corrections, exchanging knowing glances with her 00:42:46.112 --> 00:42:49.172 sister when he speaks and responding to his suggestions about things that 00:42:49.172 --> 00:42:51.632 they're going to do in the future with, well, we'll see if that's realistic. 00:42:52.437 --> 00:42:55.557 When her sister asked about their recent kitchen renovation, she sighs and says, 00:42:55.927 --> 00:42:57.257 well, yeah, you finally got it done. 00:42:57.267 --> 00:42:59.767 But you know how he is about spending money on anything that I want. 00:43:00.487 --> 00:43:03.367 Something in this moment, after years of financial sacrifice, seeing 00:43:03.367 --> 00:43:05.877 absolutely no recognition of his efforts, breaks inside of him. 00:43:06.347 --> 00:43:08.447 So when they returned to the car, she makes another comment. 00:43:08.597 --> 00:43:10.497 It's passive aggressive about his driving. 00:43:10.717 --> 00:43:14.057 And he suddenly slams his hand on the dashboard and shouts, Just stop. 00:43:14.237 --> 00:43:15.647 For once in your life, please just stop. 00:43:15.647 --> 00:43:17.197 I've given you everything I possibly can. 00:43:17.847 --> 00:43:19.177 She immediately begins crying. 00:43:19.207 --> 00:43:20.157 She calls her sister. 00:43:20.177 --> 00:43:21.417 She jumps out of the car. 00:43:21.417 --> 00:43:23.667 She describes how scary and out of control he's becoming. 00:43:24.157 --> 00:43:26.777 Adding, This is exactly what happens whenever I bring up finances. 00:43:27.327 --> 00:43:30.077 Within hours, several family members have texted him about his financial 00:43:30.077 --> 00:43:33.857 abuse and his anger issues and he spends the next weeks apologizing, offering 00:43:33.857 --> 00:43:36.657 to put her name on additional assets, attending anger management classes while 00:43:36.657 --> 00:43:39.997 she tells friends she's trying to be supportive through his issues, but she's 00:43:39.997 --> 00:43:41.237 not sure if she can do this anymore. 00:43:41.877 --> 00:43:44.977 The actual dynamics of their financial relationship , and her deliberate poking 00:43:44.987 --> 00:43:48.647 and prodding, they remain completely invisible to everybody in their circle. 00:43:50.907 --> 00:43:53.707 I'll give you one more based on real experiences. 00:43:55.837 --> 00:43:58.867 Think of a husband who openly positions himself as superior to his wife. 00:43:58.867 --> 00:44:01.197 He criticizes her appearance, her intelligence, and her 00:44:01.197 --> 00:44:02.587 parenting in front of everybody. 00:44:02.987 --> 00:44:05.457 Somebody had to tell her those pants aren't flattering or dismisses her 00:44:05.457 --> 00:44:07.287 opinions with eye rolls or interruptions. 00:44:07.287 --> 00:44:09.177 And he openly flirts with other women in her presence. 00:44:09.707 --> 00:44:13.077 He makes unilateral decisions about major purchases or travel plans saying, 00:44:13.357 --> 00:44:14.877 you know that I'm better with the finances. 00:44:15.407 --> 00:44:17.707 So when she accomplishes something, he either diminishes it. 00:44:18.097 --> 00:44:20.617 Honestly, anybody can do that with enough time, but yeah, no, I'm proud of you. 00:44:21.227 --> 00:44:23.747 Or suggests that he was responsible for her successes. 00:44:24.287 --> 00:44:27.117 And if she objects to it, then he launches into detailed lists of her 00:44:27.117 --> 00:44:30.937 flaws and shortcomings, often bringing up mistakes from years ago, decades ago. 00:44:31.467 --> 00:44:34.567 He openly mocks her emotions as dramatic and irrational, and he tells her that 00:44:34.567 --> 00:44:36.507 she's lucky that he tolerates her. 00:44:36.907 --> 00:44:41.017 What eventually comes out in her reactive response is after over a decade 00:44:41.017 --> 00:44:44.377 of this treatment, they're attending marriage counseling as a last resort. 00:44:44.847 --> 00:44:47.327 When the therapist asks about their communication pattern, he 00:44:47.327 --> 00:44:49.877 launches into a rehearsed speech about her emotional instability. 00:44:50.377 --> 00:44:52.997 And as he's describing a recent argument where he said, I remained 00:44:52.997 --> 00:44:56.787 calm, she lost it, deliberately misrepresenting what happened. 00:44:56.787 --> 00:44:58.197 Something breaks inside of her. 00:44:58.327 --> 00:44:59.037 She interrupts him. 00:44:59.057 --> 00:45:02.107 Her voice is shaking and she says, that's not what happened. 00:45:02.127 --> 00:45:02.747 You're lying. 00:45:03.377 --> 00:45:05.667 And when he tries to speak over her, she raises her voice for the 00:45:05.667 --> 00:45:08.787 first time in their relationship saying, no, I am speaking now and 00:45:08.787 --> 00:45:11.557 proceeds to detail his pattern of manipulation with specific examples. 00:45:11.697 --> 00:45:14.877 And later he then tells friends and family and even reach back out to the 00:45:14.887 --> 00:45:16.907 therapist saying she had a complete. 00:45:17.392 --> 00:45:17.932 Meltdown. 00:45:18.122 --> 00:45:19.562 Tell me that wasn't a nervous breakdown. 00:45:19.562 --> 00:45:23.762 You saw it in your office and that she verbally attacked him in therapy, 00:45:23.772 --> 00:45:26.642 proving his point about her instability, but in each one of these cases, the 00:45:26.642 --> 00:45:29.672 reactive response follows a long established pattern of mistreatment. 00:45:31.122 --> 00:45:34.632 And it occurs when normal coping mechanisms are exhausted, they've 00:45:34.642 --> 00:45:38.712 been tried, and it's completely out of character for that person. 00:45:39.102 --> 00:45:41.882 And then it's immediately reframed by the emotionally immature partner 00:45:41.882 --> 00:45:45.572 as evidence of this abuse or this instability, and that causes deep shame 00:45:45.572 --> 00:45:47.112 and confusion in the person who reacted. 00:45:47.598 --> 00:45:50.438 but I hope you can see it's isolated rather than a part of this 00:45:50.515 --> 00:45:53.245 systemic pattern of control from the pathologically kind person. 00:45:53.735 --> 00:45:57.085 So I think these are the types of examples that illustrate how reactions that might 00:45:57.085 --> 00:46:00.475 appear similar on the surface, pushing, yelling, screaming, interrupting. 00:46:02.140 --> 00:46:04.580 They seem very similar to the emotionally immature or narcissistic 00:46:04.580 --> 00:46:06.990 partner, but they have entirely different meanings depending on the 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.220 context, the history, and the intent. 00:46:09.794 --> 00:46:10.154 Okay. 00:46:10.154 --> 00:46:15.314 So to you, my, my pathologically kind listening friend, let's 00:46:15.314 --> 00:46:18.434 talk about the cycle that leads now to these reactive responses. 00:46:18.824 --> 00:46:21.644 Uh, it starts, I think, with the slow erosion. 00:46:21.644 --> 00:46:25.484 I. So the emotionally immature partner consistently prioritizes them. 00:46:25.604 --> 00:46:27.634 It is it is all about them, their comfort. 00:46:27.944 --> 00:46:29.744 They dismiss their partner's feelings. 00:46:29.744 --> 00:46:33.884 They avoid responsibility for relationship problems, and each incident 00:46:33.914 --> 00:46:35.924 will start to see minor in isolation. 00:46:35.984 --> 00:46:38.504 We start getting this death by a thousand cuts kind of vibe. 00:46:39.194 --> 00:46:41.294 So then that leads to accumulating stress. 00:46:41.554 --> 00:46:45.904 So now the pathologically kind partner starts to just absorb these experiences. 00:46:45.954 --> 00:46:50.814 They make excuses for their partner, oh, he's tired or she really didn't mean that. 00:46:50.814 --> 00:46:53.794 Or it's I did probably do something wrong. 00:46:53.824 --> 00:46:57.814 So they're making excuses that leads to them trying harder and suppressing 00:46:57.814 --> 00:47:01.054 their own needs and their own emotions to try and keep the peace, 00:47:01.444 --> 00:47:05.494 but their nervous system starts to become in incredibly overloaded. 00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:08.729 Which leads to physical manifestations. 00:47:09.249 --> 00:47:10.449 The body keeps the score. 00:47:10.779 --> 00:47:14.739 And I think one of the challenges is, yes, I love the concept of differentiation 00:47:14.739 --> 00:47:17.949 and growth through discomfort, but then there's also the body keeps the score. 00:47:18.459 --> 00:47:22.109 So I do think that that's a battle that one needs to be aware of and it, and 00:47:22.109 --> 00:47:25.389 you're the only one that will really know the answer is this my body telling me? 00:47:25.689 --> 00:47:26.409 What are you doing? 00:47:26.529 --> 00:47:27.159 Get outta here. 00:47:27.189 --> 00:47:28.329 Where boundaries please. 00:47:28.329 --> 00:47:32.469 Or is this a, you know what I can, I'm, this isn't who I am, who they 00:47:32.469 --> 00:47:35.879 are trying to tell me that I am thank you for that information and I'm okay. 00:47:35.969 --> 00:47:41.009 I can stay grounded, I can stay calm, but this physical manifestations the kind 00:47:41.009 --> 00:47:42.659 partner may develop tension headaches. 00:47:42.899 --> 00:47:45.719 There's a lot of digestive issues especially that come in from childhood. 00:47:45.749 --> 00:47:48.569 How many people that I've worked with that have things like IBS, irritable 00:47:48.569 --> 00:47:53.339 bowel syndrome or just a nervous stomach or sleep disturbances or 00:47:53.339 --> 00:47:55.319 anxiety symptoms as their system. 00:47:55.724 --> 00:47:59.504 Remains in this constant stress response, this constant fight or flight. 00:47:59.754 --> 00:48:03.384 Those neurons that fire together wire together over time, so someone's baseline, 00:48:03.564 --> 00:48:08.784 cortisol, stress level can start to just rise like the tides, which leads 00:48:08.784 --> 00:48:10.944 to a breaking point at some point. 00:48:10.944 --> 00:48:14.684 Eventually, even a seemingly small incident, it becomes the straw 00:48:14.774 --> 00:48:18.374 that breaks the camel's back, the kind partner's capacity for 00:48:18.404 --> 00:48:20.204 containing all of these big emotions. 00:48:20.744 --> 00:48:23.024 It breaks, , it overflows. 00:48:23.399 --> 00:48:26.399 They can no longer hold it in, and that leads to the outburst. 00:48:26.729 --> 00:48:31.949 They might yell or cry uncontrollably, slam doors, say hurtful things, or engage 00:48:31.949 --> 00:48:36.429 in behaviors that feel so foreign to them in their normal personality and the way 00:48:36.429 --> 00:48:40.389 that they typically show up in the world, which makes them even more frustrated, 00:48:41.049 --> 00:48:43.599 which leads to very harmful mislabeling. 00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.119 Here's where the damaging mislabeling occurs. 00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:48.579 The emotionally immature partner often then genuinely shocked by this 00:48:48.579 --> 00:48:50.679 outburst labels these reactions is. 00:48:51.069 --> 00:48:54.219 Now you're abusing me or you are crazy or you are unstable. 00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:57.549 And this unfortunately accomplishes a lot of things. 00:48:57.699 --> 00:48:59.199 It reframes the entire narrative. 00:48:59.469 --> 00:49:02.739 Now we're casting the emotionally immature person as the victim. 00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:06.819 'cause I think it's important to, to acknowledge that the victim still 00:49:06.849 --> 00:49:11.679 has that one up status because now it becomes about them and it allows 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.649 the emotionally immature partner to avoid accountability for the behaviors 00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:18.059 that contributed to their partner's breaking point to their distress. 00:49:18.779 --> 00:49:21.629 And it creates shame and confusion in the kind partner. 00:49:22.019 --> 00:49:24.119 Remember guilt is, oh, okay, I maybe did something bad. 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:25.439 Shame is I am bad. 00:49:26.069 --> 00:49:29.009 And that is what is so difficult for that pathologically kind person 00:49:29.009 --> 00:49:33.899 because they take that so deep, they take that much more seriously. 00:49:33.899 --> 00:49:36.059 It means so much more to them than the emotionally immature partner 00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:39.179 who is just throwing this out to try to get rid of their discomfort and 00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:40.769 diffuse it into the relationship. 00:49:41.309 --> 00:49:43.889 Now you've got this kind partner who questions their own character 00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:45.179 and their own stability. 00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:50.659 This is why this gaslighting this projection, this putting the anger, 00:49:50.659 --> 00:49:55.289 the diffusing the emotionally immature narcissist frustration into the 00:49:55.289 --> 00:49:59.909 relationship is it's cruel because that pathologically kind person will 00:49:59.909 --> 00:50:04.919 pick it up and try to fix it, but it just gets rid of the discomfort for 00:50:05.009 --> 00:50:06.329 the emotionally immature partner. 00:50:06.839 --> 00:50:10.469 And so that further entrenches this power imbalance in the relationship. 00:50:10.469 --> 00:50:14.576 So, lemme see if I can sell you the pathologically kind person on why this 00:50:14.576 --> 00:50:17.156 isn't actually abuse that you are doing. 00:50:17.906 --> 00:50:22.346 Because true abuse involves patterns of power control, intentional harm. 00:50:22.736 --> 00:50:24.086 It's more about domination. 00:50:24.626 --> 00:50:29.306 Reactive responses and contrast are they're sporadic rather than systematic. 00:50:30.476 --> 00:50:34.046 They're defensive rather than offensive responses to harm 00:50:34.046 --> 00:50:35.816 rather than an initiation of harm. 00:50:36.246 --> 00:50:39.666 They're expressions of accumulated pain rather than attempts to control, 00:50:40.206 --> 00:50:44.886 and they are often followed by remorse and confusion rather than the 00:50:44.886 --> 00:50:49.116 satisfaction that you can see on the face sometimes of the emotionally immature, 00:50:49.146 --> 00:50:50.346 which is part of the whole problem. 00:50:50.886 --> 00:50:53.946 The emotionally immature partner, consciously or subconsciously, maybe it's 00:50:53.946 --> 00:50:57.876 just in their programming, is pushing your buttons, trying to get you to react. 00:50:58.536 --> 00:51:00.936 I want you to think of all the greatest hits, the buttons that, that 00:51:00.936 --> 00:51:02.286 you know that they're gonna go to. 00:51:02.766 --> 00:51:04.296 And that's where the work begins. 00:51:04.326 --> 00:51:06.986 That's where you learn to say, okay, is there truth in this? 00:51:06.986 --> 00:51:08.126 Which most likely there's not. 00:51:08.456 --> 00:51:12.536 I want you to operate from a 90% solid, a 10% flexible sense of self. 00:51:12.536 --> 00:51:13.346 You are good. 00:51:13.796 --> 00:51:17.456 So when they have a problem with what you are doing, then tell me more about 00:51:17.456 --> 00:51:19.586 that, or, I don't have to listen to this. 00:51:20.276 --> 00:51:23.096 Because they need you to react in order to know what to do next 00:51:23.816 --> 00:51:25.406 rather than confront themselves. 00:51:25.931 --> 00:51:27.671 The narcissist, the emotionally immature partner. 00:51:27.671 --> 00:51:31.541 They need to find the right button of yours to push to get you to react. 00:51:31.541 --> 00:51:33.761 So now they can point the finger across the aisle at you. 00:51:34.601 --> 00:51:37.031 This is why it's so important for you to, to get the help you need 00:51:37.091 --> 00:51:39.761 to go to a therapist, listen to anything and everything that I 00:51:39.821 --> 00:51:43.141 put out about differentiation or gaslighting, because you don't deserve 00:51:43.141 --> 00:51:44.311 to be in a relationship like this. 00:51:44.311 --> 00:51:47.491 But I know so many of you, men, women, nobody. 00:51:47.701 --> 00:51:50.131 Nobody deserves to be in a relationship where their version of 00:51:50.131 --> 00:51:52.921 reality is constantly challenged, where there's a lack of curiosity. 00:51:53.411 --> 00:51:57.411 Where you're not allowed to be your own person, you're two humans that are 00:51:57.411 --> 00:51:59.511 getting in a relationship together, of course you're gonna be different. 00:52:00.291 --> 00:52:03.081 A relationship is not a contest, it's not a zero sum game. 00:52:03.081 --> 00:52:06.321 There's not supposed to be a winner and a loser in a conversation. 00:52:07.251 --> 00:52:09.081 There doesn't even have to be resolution. 00:52:09.111 --> 00:52:11.121 Most of the time the goal is to be heard. 00:52:11.671 --> 00:52:16.141 The winner loser concept is an all or nothing black or white concept, and that 00:52:16.141 --> 00:52:18.331 is emotional immaturity in its finest. 00:52:19.051 --> 00:52:22.831 If somebody says, and this is a very real example, that you're financially abusive 00:52:23.431 --> 00:52:27.031 and in a scenario I'm talking about, you are the person who pathologically 00:52:27.031 --> 00:52:30.961 gives you give and you give and you give, and you give your time. 00:52:31.381 --> 00:52:32.761 You'll work more, you'll work harder. 00:52:32.761 --> 00:52:36.541 You don't say no to anybody but your spouse because of maybe they're outta 00:52:36.541 --> 00:52:39.481 control spending, for example, doesn't want to deal with their own discomfort or 00:52:39.481 --> 00:52:41.041 take ownership of the things that they do. 00:52:41.671 --> 00:52:44.671 Then all they have to do is push a button that will feel 00:52:44.671 --> 00:52:46.231 so out of left field to you. 00:52:46.501 --> 00:52:47.851 You will feel so unseen. 00:52:48.271 --> 00:52:50.371 Because you give them everything that you can. 00:52:50.971 --> 00:52:51.961 Let's even take money out of it. 00:52:51.961 --> 00:52:53.011 You give your time. 00:52:53.011 --> 00:52:55.921 There's those that I work with that sacrifice the their needs and their 00:52:55.921 --> 00:52:59.371 wants to accommodate the emotionally immature people or person in their 00:52:59.371 --> 00:53:03.151 family so that that person won't think that you are selfish because that's 00:53:03.151 --> 00:53:07.741 the biggest fear you have because you are so selfless or you're so worried 00:53:07.741 --> 00:53:09.241 about you being the narcissist. 00:53:09.796 --> 00:53:12.766 All they have to do is call you selfish or say that they think that 00:53:12.826 --> 00:53:17.266 your behaviors seem a bit narcissistic and then you, my pathologically kind 00:53:17.266 --> 00:53:20.776 friend will most likely lose your mind or get emotionally upset because 00:53:20.776 --> 00:53:23.926 those are the things that you're doing everything that you can do and hopes 00:53:23.956 --> 00:53:26.386 that nobody will mistake you for abusive. 00:53:26.746 --> 00:53:29.656 Selfish, narcissistic, or financially not supportive. 00:53:30.226 --> 00:53:32.236 So then you're the one who will go do the work. 00:53:32.266 --> 00:53:33.166 Am I the narcissist? 00:53:33.166 --> 00:53:33.976 Am I not supportive? 00:53:34.006 --> 00:53:37.096 Okay, I'll go spend days, weeks, months, trying to figure that out. 00:53:37.336 --> 00:53:39.406 Reading books, listening to podcasts, might even start going 00:53:39.406 --> 00:53:40.396 to see a therapist about it. 00:53:40.396 --> 00:53:43.966 I've had so many people that come into my office of wanting to say, no, I need 00:53:43.966 --> 00:53:45.586 to figure out what is wrong with me. 00:53:46.456 --> 00:53:48.106 What if it's nothing's wrong with you. 00:53:48.106 --> 00:53:50.116 You're a human going through life for the very first time. 00:53:50.536 --> 00:53:53.356 Because meanwhile, the emotionally immature or the narcissist, they got outta 00:53:53.356 --> 00:53:56.086 their discomfort and they're back to just doing the things that they've been doing. 00:53:56.656 --> 00:53:58.846 They got outta their discomfort and now they feel better. 00:53:59.116 --> 00:54:01.606 And you are the one then going off listening to podcasts like 00:54:01.606 --> 00:54:03.886 mine, asking the number one question that I get in the emails. 00:54:04.366 --> 00:54:05.446 I think it might be a narcissist. 00:54:05.446 --> 00:54:08.506 Where again, if you are an hour into a podcast called Waking Up the 00:54:08.506 --> 00:54:12.946 Narcissism, trying to figure out if you are, holy cow, you, you weren't when 00:54:12.946 --> 00:54:14.506 you first asked yourself the question. 00:54:14.986 --> 00:54:18.526 It's the emotionally immature partner who in essence is saying, I'm not. 00:54:18.526 --> 00:54:18.796 You are. 00:54:19.486 --> 00:54:20.416 And you have to prove it. 00:54:22.276 --> 00:54:24.826 Okay, this one's going a little bit long today, my friends 'cause uh, buckle up. 00:54:24.826 --> 00:54:28.876 'cause I do want to now cover in this scenario, let's go through 00:54:29.276 --> 00:54:30.836 David Arch's four points of Balance. 00:54:30.836 --> 00:54:34.106 Because becoming differentiated, it's how do you hide your buttons 00:54:34.946 --> 00:54:37.916 for the emotionally immature partner so that they can't push those 00:54:37.916 --> 00:54:40.976 buttons if you're not currently willing or able to set a boundary. 00:54:41.006 --> 00:54:43.586 For example, if your emotionally immature partner starts down that you 00:54:43.586 --> 00:54:46.136 are financially abusive and you've heard this, it's for the hundredth time. 00:54:46.466 --> 00:54:47.336 It's 'cause it works. 00:54:47.771 --> 00:54:50.981 'cause it makes you feel so angry because you've done everything in your power to 00:54:50.981 --> 00:54:54.191 prove to this person that you are not, and bless your pathologically kind heart. 00:54:54.191 --> 00:54:57.851 My friend in this point, she pushes that button because it works, 00:54:57.851 --> 00:54:59.171 because it causes you to react. 00:54:59.201 --> 00:55:01.031 Now is the time to grow through the discomfort. 00:55:01.391 --> 00:55:03.821 Trying to explain to her in a moment like that definitely falls 00:55:03.821 --> 00:55:05.351 into the I want validation bucket. 00:55:05.381 --> 00:55:07.541 I need you to understand this is not who I am. 00:55:07.961 --> 00:55:10.181 You're trying to convince her that you're not financially abusive, but 00:55:10.181 --> 00:55:14.351 you know, you need to know through that conversation that you aren't. 00:55:15.851 --> 00:55:18.911 So David Arch's, four Points of Balance, which I'll go through so quickly, but 00:55:19.121 --> 00:55:21.971 that is first, knowing who you are without needing others to tell you, 00:55:22.241 --> 00:55:26.141 having a solid, but again, I'll say albeit a flexible sense of self, I'm 00:55:26.141 --> 00:55:29.171 starting from a place of I'm good, but I do wanna be the best version of me. 00:55:29.171 --> 00:55:32.831 So I'll take in the data, but what if 90% of the time you're gonna 00:55:32.831 --> 00:55:35.496 respond with, oh, thank you, period. 00:55:36.166 --> 00:55:39.551 Because if I'm having to defend myself or prove myself of things 00:55:39.551 --> 00:55:40.781 that I know not to be true. 00:55:41.321 --> 00:55:43.691 Is that person even being curious or are they just throwing that 00:55:43.691 --> 00:55:46.691 over at me and then saying, okay, deal with that typically works. 00:55:47.741 --> 00:55:51.921 And then that second point of balance is being able to calm your yourself, 00:55:51.921 --> 00:55:56.331 soothe yourself, calm your own anxiety that is so necessary that comes through. 00:55:56.671 --> 00:55:58.171 Everything from somatic healing. 00:55:58.231 --> 00:56:00.571 You might have to go to a rage room and break some things. 00:56:00.871 --> 00:56:04.681 Or the opposite, do yoga, mindfulness, meditation. 00:56:05.041 --> 00:56:06.391 Learn to build in that pause. 00:56:06.421 --> 00:56:08.791 Get yourself grounded, calm yourself. 00:56:09.181 --> 00:56:11.491 So you can get to this third point of balance, which is a grounded 00:56:11.491 --> 00:56:14.991 response, which means I don't overreact, but there's a key here too. 00:56:15.021 --> 00:56:18.111 I also don't play small, so I'm not just gonna cower. 00:56:18.111 --> 00:56:22.071 I'm not just gonna give in, but I'm grounded because I know who I am and I can 00:56:22.071 --> 00:56:24.651 call my own anxiety, which leads to the fourth point of balance, where here we go 00:56:24.651 --> 00:56:27.291 with the growth through the discomfort, and I'll take ownership of, there's 00:56:27.291 --> 00:56:30.471 something there that I'm understanding or hearing that is true and I hadn't thought 00:56:30.471 --> 00:56:33.561 of, or something that I had committed to and I didn't do then yeah, thank 00:56:33.561 --> 00:56:34.641 you for bringing that to my attention. 00:56:34.641 --> 00:56:36.441 Now when you tell me what a horrible person I am. 00:56:36.906 --> 00:56:38.226 That's where the boundary might come in. 00:56:38.286 --> 00:56:39.606 Hey, I, I acknowledge that. 00:56:39.606 --> 00:56:41.406 I said I will do that, and I didn't. 00:56:41.766 --> 00:56:43.206 Thank you for bringing that to my attention. 00:56:43.656 --> 00:56:44.496 I'll take care of that. 00:56:45.006 --> 00:56:46.446 Well, you're a piece of whatever. 00:56:46.506 --> 00:56:46.836 Okay. 00:56:47.226 --> 00:56:49.396 If you're gonna call me names now then I'll leave. 00:56:49.576 --> 00:56:50.266 There's a boundary. 00:56:50.296 --> 00:56:51.736 If you do this, then I will do this. 00:56:52.066 --> 00:56:57.076 And one of the biggest, I don't wanna say challenge, but you can also take ownership 00:56:57.076 --> 00:56:58.996 of something and then it feels better. 00:56:59.086 --> 00:56:59.416 But then. 00:57:00.001 --> 00:57:03.911 Shahar says another point in there where he says, and then take action for change. 00:57:03.971 --> 00:57:04.781 It's something like that. 00:57:05.111 --> 00:57:09.581 So once I take ownership of it, I still have to do something about it, but just 00:57:09.581 --> 00:57:13.421 those four points of balance alone, and it takes a lot more work than me just saying. 00:57:13.421 --> 00:57:15.011 It is just those four points of balance. 00:57:15.311 --> 00:57:18.011 But that's where you can start to learn about yourself through 00:57:18.011 --> 00:57:19.391 the discomfort in a relationship. 00:57:20.341 --> 00:57:25.201 Okay, so let's go back to the things that lead to the reactive response and then 00:57:25.771 --> 00:57:27.781 let's let's wrap this up and take us home. 00:57:28.271 --> 00:57:31.891 You know that these reactions are typically out of character. 00:57:32.221 --> 00:57:33.271 For who you are. 00:57:33.691 --> 00:57:36.631 They're not consistent with your normal behavioral patterns. 00:57:37.081 --> 00:57:41.941 But is the poking consistent with the emotionally immature partner? 00:57:42.031 --> 00:57:43.651 The questioning, the button pushing? 00:57:44.366 --> 00:57:46.201 I, I think it's safe to say most likely. 00:57:46.811 --> 00:57:49.671 Think of the difference between somebody who , regularly uses physical 00:57:49.821 --> 00:57:53.571 intimidation to control other people, versus somebody who after being cornered 00:57:53.571 --> 00:57:57.621 and threatened repeatedly, finally pushes back to create space to escape. 00:57:57.651 --> 00:57:57.711 Yeah. 00:57:58.251 --> 00:58:03.031 Both of those things involve physical force, but the context the pattern, 00:58:03.031 --> 00:58:06.241 the intent, those things are very different and they do matter. 00:58:07.261 --> 00:58:10.551 It puts the pathologically kind person in a bit of a double bind because the 00:58:10.551 --> 00:58:14.301 person experiencing reactive distress binds themselves sometimes in what 00:58:14.301 --> 00:58:15.861 feels like an impossible situation. 00:58:16.161 --> 00:58:19.071 'cause if they continue to suppress their feelings, they damage their 00:58:19.071 --> 00:58:20.361 physical and their mental health. 00:58:21.021 --> 00:58:23.811 If they express their distress, they're labeled abusive or unstable. 00:58:24.231 --> 00:58:27.501 If they try to explain the pattern, they're accused of making excuses 00:58:27.501 --> 00:58:30.111 or playing the victim, or it's turned right around on them. 00:58:30.561 --> 00:58:33.711 If they seek validation from others, they risk only sharing their own reactive 00:58:33.711 --> 00:58:38.271 moments without the context that led to those moments and then of themselves, 00:58:38.751 --> 00:58:41.541 where then people will say, well, it sounds like you had a role in that too. 00:58:42.231 --> 00:58:46.851 And this just creates profound confusion and self-doubt, which leads to what 00:58:46.851 --> 00:58:49.221 therapists recognize as a trauma response. 00:58:50.121 --> 00:58:54.051 The, that, that reaction or questioning one's own perceptions or experiences 00:58:54.441 --> 00:58:55.761 or even their, their sanity. 00:58:56.541 --> 00:59:00.501 So I want to help you break free from that label, whatever that label 00:59:00.501 --> 00:59:01.491 is that you're putting on yourself. 00:59:01.761 --> 00:59:06.321 'cause recognizing reactive responses for what they are, their normal human 00:59:06.321 --> 00:59:10.671 reactions to abnormal relationship dynamics, understanding that's one of the 00:59:10.671 --> 00:59:14.901 first steps toward healing when we remove the abuser label from your reaction. 00:59:15.456 --> 00:59:18.126 Now we can reduce the shame that keeps people trapped in 00:59:18.426 --> 00:59:19.776 these harmful relationships. 00:59:20.256 --> 00:59:23.976 You can now create space for appropriate accountability, hopefully on both sides. 00:59:24.126 --> 00:59:27.066 And this starts to open the door to developing healthier emotional regulation 00:59:27.066 --> 00:59:33.876 and boundary setting, which is gonna be so key because it's a lot healthier at 00:59:33.876 --> 00:59:38.766 first to set the boundary than to try to stay in a, in a, an emotionally abusive 00:59:38.766 --> 00:59:39.936 moment and try to breathe through it. 00:59:40.296 --> 00:59:42.606 No, that's a, if this is happening, then I need to leave. 00:59:42.636 --> 00:59:45.696 And this will help allow for genuine healing rather than 00:59:45.696 --> 00:59:47.016 just managing your behavior. 00:59:48.486 --> 00:59:51.306 I just want to emphasize having a reactive response does not make 00:59:51.306 --> 00:59:53.256 you an abuser, makes you a human. 00:59:53.766 --> 00:59:57.276 And the path forward is not about suppressing those responses is about 00:59:57.276 --> 01:00:00.916 first understanding them honoring the valid distress signals that they are your 01:00:00.916 --> 01:00:05.056 body's trying to communicate something to you, and then create circumstances 01:00:05.056 --> 01:00:09.526 where they're there to inform you and they're no longer trying to help you 01:00:09.526 --> 01:00:15.346 with your emotional survival because our emotions are trying to communicate to us. 01:00:15.676 --> 01:00:18.916 But when we finally start to listen to 'em, they're probably screaming. 01:00:20.926 --> 01:00:23.896 So I hope today, I guess we're the, what do we learn today? 01:00:24.106 --> 01:00:27.526 We've navigated this territory of what happens when kind, empathetic 01:00:27.526 --> 01:00:30.436 people find themselves behaving in ways they never thought possible, and 01:00:30.436 --> 01:00:32.373 it's after prolonged emotional strain. 01:00:33.123 --> 01:00:35.673 And hopefully you can see how the relationships often form between the 01:00:35.673 --> 01:00:38.883 pathologically kind person and the more emotionally immature partners, 01:00:38.883 --> 01:00:41.493 and that creates what Ross Rosenberg says in his book, human Magnet 01:00:41.493 --> 01:00:44.253 Syndrome Break Up Resistant Dynamics. 01:00:45.393 --> 01:00:49.293 The pathologically kind person continually accommodates and explains 01:00:49.293 --> 01:00:53.013 away poor treatment, and they prioritize other people's needs. 01:00:53.013 --> 01:00:55.353 While that emotionally immature partner avoids accountability, 01:00:55.593 --> 01:00:58.683 they externalize their blame and they struggle with empathy. 01:00:59.793 --> 01:01:03.213 And so I hope you could see the difference as well between healthy kindness, which 01:01:03.213 --> 01:01:07.703 does include boundaries and self-care and a genuine desire for reciprocity 01:01:08.513 --> 01:01:11.213 and pathological kindness, sacrifices. 01:01:11.213 --> 01:01:12.963 Essential needs, for others'. 01:01:12.963 --> 01:01:13.413 Comfort. 01:01:14.238 --> 01:01:18.268 And we also saw how emotional immaturity manifest in very cookie cutter 01:01:18.268 --> 01:01:21.928 concrete behaviors, like difficulty identifying feelings, lashing out 01:01:22.378 --> 01:01:27.148 emotional immaturity is truly seeing a grownup human being, acting like 01:01:27.148 --> 01:01:31.528 a child limited perspective, taking manipulative tactics to avoid discomfort. 01:01:32.158 --> 01:01:36.538 And then I hope most of all, we reframed the concept of reactive abuse, 01:01:36.538 --> 01:01:38.038 recognizing that these responses. 01:01:38.528 --> 01:01:42.218 They aren't abuse, but they're normal human reactions, again, 01:01:42.218 --> 01:01:43.808 to abnormal relationship stress. 01:01:44.078 --> 01:01:46.628 But the key difference lies in the pattern, intent, and context. 01:01:47.048 --> 01:01:50.823 True abuse is systematic, it's intentional, and it's aimed at control. 01:01:51.123 --> 01:01:54.753 Reactive responses are gonna be sporadic, defensive, and basically 01:01:54.753 --> 01:01:56.373 expressions of accumulated pain. 01:01:56.768 --> 01:01:57.963 One's about domination. 01:01:58.293 --> 01:02:01.263 The other is about the human nervous system reaching its capacity. 01:02:01.573 --> 01:02:03.553 And it can't, it can't hold in anymore. 01:02:04.543 --> 01:02:07.303 Now if the term reactive abuse though, does work for you, if 01:02:07.303 --> 01:02:13.663 that's helped you feel free, then own that because it's your journey. 01:02:14.143 --> 01:02:19.393 But I think I now can understand why that term can also for some reinforce shame 01:02:19.693 --> 01:02:24.403 and self-doubt, which is keeping some people trapped in this harmful dynamic 01:02:24.763 --> 01:02:26.623 by equating their occasional reactions. 01:02:27.313 --> 01:02:30.823 With their partner's consistent patterns of emotional neglect or manipulation. 01:02:31.133 --> 01:02:35.183 If you prefer a reactive response, use that term, embrace that thing. 01:02:36.323 --> 01:02:42.803 So I want to be very dramatic and crystal clear about this distinction that when we 01:02:42.803 --> 01:02:46.343 label somebody's defensive reactions as abuse, it's a form of false equivalence. 01:02:46.343 --> 01:02:49.823 It's like saying both the fire starter and the fire alarm are equally destructive 01:02:49.823 --> 01:02:51.533 because both create noise and disruption. 01:02:52.208 --> 01:02:56.128 And that term reactive abuse inadvertently serves those who benefit from confusion 01:02:56.128 --> 01:02:59.878 and shame because it creates a narrative where everybody is equally responsible. 01:03:00.388 --> 01:03:04.288 And that erases the context of who constantly holds power in the 01:03:04.288 --> 01:03:06.418 relationship and how that power's wielded. 01:03:07.028 --> 01:03:09.323 ' cause what we're really witnessing in these scenarios is the human 01:03:09.323 --> 01:03:12.353 spirit's natural response to conditions it was never designed to endure. 01:03:12.623 --> 01:03:14.843 These reactions don't reveal character flaws. 01:03:15.143 --> 01:03:16.103 They reveal that your. 01:03:16.433 --> 01:03:19.343 Your system is working correctly by signaling that something is 01:03:19.343 --> 01:03:20.783 deeply wrong in your environment. 01:03:21.383 --> 01:03:25.223 So I would love to help you start to reframe these as reactive responses. 01:03:25.433 --> 01:03:28.463 'cause now we're honoring both the reality of the distress and the 01:03:28.463 --> 01:03:30.233 humanity of the person experiencing it. 01:03:30.653 --> 01:03:33.513 Because now we're creating space for accountability without shame. 01:03:33.853 --> 01:03:38.203 Healing without denial of of the genuine harm that led to these reactions. 01:03:38.833 --> 01:03:43.363 So to those of you listening still, thank you first of all, and if you 01:03:43.363 --> 01:03:46.933 recognize yourself in some of today's stories, if you felt the that burning 01:03:46.933 --> 01:03:50.143 shame of acting in ways that don't align with your values or who you know 01:03:50.143 --> 01:03:51.853 yourself to be, or who you want to be. 01:03:52.243 --> 01:03:55.373 If you've questioned your own sanity, when your reactions were labeled as as the 01:03:55.373 --> 01:03:57.743 primary problem, have a message for you. 01:03:58.523 --> 01:04:00.923 I know that your reaction is not your character. 01:04:01.403 --> 01:04:03.103 It's just a chapter in a story. 01:04:03.103 --> 01:04:04.303 It's not your entire story. 01:04:04.693 --> 01:04:07.843 The fact that you care so deeply about those moments when you've fallen short 01:04:07.843 --> 01:04:11.473 of your own standards says something profound about who you truly are. 01:04:12.073 --> 01:04:14.713 'cause that shame you feel is not evidence of your brokenness. 01:04:14.893 --> 01:04:19.543 It's evidence of your intact moral compass that's trying to guide and navigate 01:04:19.723 --> 01:04:21.583 sometimes impossible circumstances. 01:04:22.543 --> 01:04:24.343 So I want a wind machine. 01:04:24.343 --> 01:04:25.243 I want a soapbox. 01:04:25.243 --> 01:04:27.643 I wanna say from this day forward, reframe that experience. 01:04:27.804 --> 01:04:31.224 When the phrase reactive abuse enters your mind, consciously replace that with 01:04:31.224 --> 01:04:35.274 reactive response or survival response, and notice how the small shift changes 01:04:35.274 --> 01:04:40.404 how you view yourself and become a compassionate witness to your own story. 01:04:40.584 --> 01:04:43.164 Look at you in the context of that moment you're trying to survive. 01:04:43.644 --> 01:04:46.404 Instead of judging your reactions, get curious about 'em when you can. 01:04:46.974 --> 01:04:48.324 What were they trying to protect? 01:04:48.414 --> 01:04:50.124 What needs were you desperately seeking? 01:04:51.114 --> 01:04:55.074 Because most likely it was, I do want to be seen, I want to be heard. 01:04:55.074 --> 01:04:57.714 I want someone to be curious because I'm curious about them. 01:04:58.404 --> 01:05:00.914 I, I want us to get to the point of living and not continually 01:05:00.914 --> 01:05:03.794 just having these silly, petty arguments that just get us nowhere. 01:05:04.754 --> 01:05:05.774 , reclaim your narrative. 01:05:06.144 --> 01:05:07.914 You are the author of your own life story. 01:05:07.914 --> 01:05:08.934 You're not, it's a villain. 01:05:09.114 --> 01:05:12.034 And I worry that that's what , you are being portrayed as. 01:05:12.874 --> 01:05:16.354 But start writing the story with all of its complexity and pain, but also all 01:05:16.354 --> 01:05:21.444 the possibility because we need to start viewing this as somebody is not defined 01:05:21.444 --> 01:05:25.374 by their worst moments, but as somebody who's very sensitivity to those moments 01:05:25.374 --> 01:05:27.024 reveals their capacity for growth. 01:05:27.654 --> 01:05:29.664 You're over an hour into a podcast about this for repeat's sake. 01:05:29.664 --> 01:05:34.134 You're growing and practice one small act of self-trust every day, whether 01:05:34.134 --> 01:05:36.924 it's honoring a boundary, expressing a need, or just simply acknowledging. 01:05:37.284 --> 01:05:40.494 Your own experience without needing somebody else to tell you it's okay. 01:05:40.704 --> 01:05:41.724 Tell yourself it's okay. 01:05:42.234 --> 01:05:44.244 Rebuild trust with yourself one moment at a time. 01:05:45.174 --> 01:05:47.904 'cause I think it's important to remember the system that labeled your 01:05:47.904 --> 01:05:52.314 humanity as abusive counts on your shame to keep you silent and compliant. 01:05:52.734 --> 01:05:54.414 Your healing is not just personal. 01:05:54.714 --> 01:05:57.774 Your healing can honestly be somewhat revolutionary because you're gonna 01:05:57.774 --> 01:06:00.384 also model this for your kids. 01:06:00.444 --> 01:06:02.874 You're gonna start mapping a new way that we show up in 01:06:02.874 --> 01:06:06.954 relationships every time you choose self-compassion over self condemnation. 01:06:07.284 --> 01:06:10.824 You're taken apart the very dynamic that attempts to define 01:06:10.824 --> 01:06:13.974 you by your reactions instead of the conditions that created them. 01:06:14.634 --> 01:06:16.014 And your journey will not be perfect. 01:06:16.764 --> 01:06:18.714 It's not an all or nothing zero sum game. 01:06:19.224 --> 01:06:21.414 There will be days where old patterns are gonna resurface and 01:06:21.414 --> 01:06:22.554 doubts are gonna creep back in. 01:06:22.974 --> 01:06:26.244 But hopefully you now have something very powerful that can't be taken away. 01:06:26.634 --> 01:06:27.504 And that's awareness. 01:06:27.504 --> 01:06:30.564 That's the recognition that your reactions make sense in context. 01:06:31.104 --> 01:06:33.354 That they don't define your character, and that a different way 01:06:33.354 --> 01:06:34.944 of being is absolutely possible. 01:06:35.214 --> 01:06:37.884 And it's not because you suppress your humanity, but it's because 01:06:37.884 --> 01:06:39.144 you start to fully reclaim it. 01:06:39.509 --> 01:06:42.239 And so your road ahead is not about becoming somebody new, it's 01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:45.329 about returning to who you've always been beneath the layers of 01:06:45.329 --> 01:06:47.489 your adaptation and your survival. 01:06:47.819 --> 01:06:51.809 Because that person who cares deeply, loves, genuinely, and deserves 01:06:51.809 --> 01:06:55.049 relationships that reflect , rather than distort your true nature. 01:06:55.514 --> 01:06:56.744 That's the person that's underneath. 01:06:56.774 --> 01:06:59.714 That's the person that you were hoping to unlock in your relationship 01:06:59.714 --> 01:07:02.294 where we can learn about each other through the relationship. 01:07:02.564 --> 01:07:05.924 Not having somebody else project all their crap over onto you and say, Hey, 01:07:05.924 --> 01:07:07.454 you take care of this so I'll feel better. 01:07:09.074 --> 01:07:11.864 So that journey starts with a single profound recognition. 01:07:11.954 --> 01:07:15.634 You are not what happened to you, nor are you, your responses to what happened. 01:07:15.664 --> 01:07:19.894 You are the consciousness witnessing it all capable of growth. 01:07:19.954 --> 01:07:21.034 You're worthy of compassion. 01:07:21.559 --> 01:07:24.679 Uh, you're deserving of relationships that honor rather than exploit your 01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:26.749 capacity for kindness and love. 01:07:27.319 --> 01:07:29.569 That next chapter of the story, I think begins now. 01:07:29.839 --> 01:07:32.179 And this time you get to write it. 01:07:32.379 --> 01:07:33.189 Now you know better. 01:07:33.459 --> 01:07:35.979 So now it is time to lovingly do better. 01:07:36.649 --> 01:07:40.669 , , thanks for listening and I will see you next time on Waking Up the Narcissism.