Hey, everybody today, before we get to another virtual couch
presents waking up to narcissism.
I Just had a couple of things I wanted to share . So recently
Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky met with us president Donald Trump
and vice president J. D. Vance in the Oval Office.
Now, before you think, Oh my gosh, we're going political now, I come in peace as
a mental health professional who works primarily with the emotionally immature
also known as people who are waking up to their very own narcissistic traits and
tendencies or people who are starting to recognize that they're in relationships
with a narcissistic fill in the blank, be it a spouse, a partner, a boss, a
sibling, a religious institution, a pet, particularly if you're a cat owner.
But I want to simply bring some awareness to what emotional immaturity looks like,
because too often, that's what we're more familiar with, so we can sometimes
think that that is just the norm.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's okay, or it's the only way
that one should conduct themselves.
And yes, I just should all over you.
Because I think once you know better, then you can do better.
So during this meeting, a correspondent from a conservative network questioned
why Zelensky wasn't wearing a suit, seemingly criticizing his I think
it's his black tactical attire.
But even as I share that last sentence, I wish I could maybe even muster up a little
of my own formerly emotional immaturity.
Because it wasn't delivered like Tom Brokaw.
Tell me more about your attire today.
What does that symbolize?
It's more, think prime Chris Farley circa Tommy Boy.
Where, again, I can't even muster it up, but, he, why are you wearing that suit?
So this criticism struck me as particularly ironic.
Now, not just because other people like Elon Musk have entered the same
office in casual attire without comment, but because I thought it perfectly
illustrated something that I see every day in my work as a therapist.
The disconnect between.
Our outward appearance and our emotional maturity, because far too
often I watch grown human beings who can drive cars and can own homes
and they wear adult clothing, truly communicate similarly to a seven year
old child, pouting, bullying, yelling, refusing to apologize, or refusing to
take ownership of their own behavior.
And Zelinsky's tactical gear isn't a fashion statement.
It's a powerful symbol.
I did a little bit of digging on my own, and according to Ukrainian journalist,
Ilya Ponomorenko the clothes are more than clothes They're part of a culture
of people who are involved in the war.
So Zelensky choice represents the average Ukrainian fighting in this conflict.
So when he meets with world leaders, his attire asks a, a profound question, are
you about the business of saving lives or are you more about the protocols?
So he comes to the centers of power representing his people in their
current reality, which is a war zone.
So here's where the irony emerges.
So in that oval office, who displayed greater emotional maturity?
We'll take the politics right out of it.
Those in the traditional suits who questioned the other person's appearance
or the leader who chose attire that represents his people's struggle.
The setting was formal.
The office was prestigious.
The suits were impeccable, but the exchange revealed that neither
location nor clothing can determine.
Specifically, emotional maturity.
Now, let's define emotional maturity.
As a mental health professional, I define emotional maturity as the
ability to respond, rather than react.
To remain curious about different perspectives.
To be able to stay grounded and regulate your emotions during disagreement.
To calm your own anxiety, to stay grounded, to not have to overreact, but
to be fair, not to play small as well and to take ownership of the things
, that you need to take ownership of.
It's a resistance of black and white thinking.
It's recognizing the humanity in others, even when they're different,
because in this world of emotional immaturity, there are only two ways to be.
Right or wrong, good or bad, black or white, all or nothing.
So when the emotionally immature person hears an opinion that theirs, all of
a sudden they think, well that means you think you are right and I am wrong.
Which is one of the most immature responses that an
adult human being can have.
It's okay to have your own opinion, your own view, your own thought, because
you are actually the only version of you that has ever walked this face
of the earth with your nature and your nurture and your birth order and
your DNA and abandonment, rejection, all the things that make you, you.
Let's talk about emotional immaturity and contrast the way that that
manifests itself is name calling.
Mockery, putting other people on the defensive, having them have to defend
things that aren't even necessarily true about them, talking over people,
believing that your perspective is the only valid one, attacking differences
rather than trying to understand them.
Because again, it's okay to have different thoughts, different
opinions, different experiences.
Why does emotional immaturity persist?
Why do we see it everywhere we look?
Emotional maturity isn't automatically granted with age.
Most adults, I'm afraid, remain emotionally immature in so many
different areas because of a bunch of different reasons.
First and foremost, the modeling.
They most likely grew up around emotionally immature adults who never
demonstrated healthy emotional regulation or even healthy conflict resolution.
I think we're barely getting to the point now where we can start
to talk about our emotions and that it's okay to have our emotions.
When we were kids, most likely we were told by the best of parents
to not worry about it, to get over it, it's not a big deal.
And we slowly learned to internalize all of our emotions
and we learned our emotions are not good that they must be wrong.
So if they are about to come out, then we, resolve them in very, very immature
ways, either stuffing them playing small, more than likely you're interacting
with people that just can't tolerate
the emotions they feel if you have a different opinion, because again,
it goes back to this black or white thinking where they think, Oh, you
think that you're right and I'm wrong?
Well, now I will do whatever it takes to get in that one up position
because this is a zero sum game.
Other reasons that we see so much emotional immaturity?
Trauma.
Unresolved trauma can freeze your emotional development at
the age when the trauma occurred.
How often have you seen an adult playing a board game with their
kids and if they are starting to lose, they will say, I'm done.
I quit.
Like the little kid who took their ball and went home , when
their team wasn't winning.
But one of the major ones that we see, especially I think with people that
rise to power is reinforcement because our culture often rewards aggressive
domineering behavior, particularly in certain professional environments.
And that's unfortunate because then what does that show the next generation
that the immaturity, the bullying, the name calling, the mocking is okay
and it actually will get you ahead.
We also see emotional immaturity because , as big and bold as someone
who wears a suit or not can pretend that they are, there's some fear underneath
their fear because genuine curiosity about others requires vulnerability.
It requires a willingness to have your mind potentially changed,
which can feel threatening.
It does until it doesn't.
Go to therapy.
Learn and understand that it's okay to not know something.
It's okay to be curious about something.
It's okay to go to a therapist.
What do they know?
Says the person who doesn't go to therapy.
I don't think that I know more than my doctor or my attorney or my
accountant or my real estate agent because I know that there are things
that I don't know that I don't know.
So what a joy if I can try to figure that out.
And we also have to be honest about some neurological factors.
Some neurological differences can make emotional regulation
all the more challenging.
Now, let's talk about breaking the cycle.
True emotional maturity requires intentional growth.
It means you have to be aware of and practice genuine curiosity about
others and it will be uncomfortable and it will take repeated effort.
You'll have to be aware and catch yourself in the all or nothing black
or white thinking, recognizing when you are reacting from emotional triggers
rather than responding thoughtfully.
And that's going to take a lot of work to be able to calm your own anxiety,
to build in that pause , to be curious.
But it will allow you to respond thoughtfully to provide emotional
safety, emotional consistency.
And emotional maturity, you have to be willing to see complexity in situations
and know that knowledge connection.
These are the long game.
If you need to get out of that discomfort in that very moment, that is a sign
that you are emotionally immature.
So the next time that you see somebody being criticized for being different, or
you find yourself wanting to criticize someone for being different, whether
it's their clothing, their accent or their perspective or their ideas,
remember Zelensky and his tactical gear.
Because the true measure of maturity isn't the suit you wear or the office
that you even occupy, but it's your capacity to approach differences
with curiosity rather than judgment.
In a world that I think desperately needs more understanding, perhaps we should
be a little less concerned with what somebody is wearing and more interested
in what their choices represent.
What their ability to handle their discomfort looks like.
Because I believe that can really show you who is a true leader.
Someone that can show up emotionally consistent and emotionally mature,
because I think it's that shift from judgment to curiosity.
That's the hallmark of true emotional maturity.
So now that you know better, I hope that you'll do better.
Thanks everybody.
Let's get to today's show.
Thank you for that intro music from Riley Hope.
And it is it is not my job.
So go find Riley wherever you listen to music.
Now.
The following is based on an all too real scenario, but no, if you are a
client of mine, a current or former, this is not about you, even if it
sounds pretty spot on because these sessions, these scenarios are far, far
too common in modern day relationships.
But unfortunately, so many of the people in these relationships are not in a
position to speak up or to be heard.
And also know that while in this story, the wife plays the role of the
pathologically kind, in this one that I'm about to tell , the husband is the more
emotionally immature, I have clients right now where that is the complete opposite.
Okay, let's, let's get to the story.
Sarah and Mike sit across from me in my office, and the tension
between them is tangible.
Before Sarah can even speak, Mike leans forward.
I don't even know what to do anymore about her anger problems.
Any gestures towards Sarah, it's like, uh, it's like I'm walking
on eggshells in our very own home.
Now, I noticed Sarah's physical response immediately.
She shrinks slightly in her chair, her shoulders hunching forward, her
eyes dart between Mike and me trying to read the room and see what is I, my
thinking that she's a horrible person.
It's this mixture of confusion and shame clouding her expression.
I just ask is that how you see it also, Sarah?
, because you can tell that she is very sensitive.
I guess it's true, she says hesitantly.
I have been losing my temper a lot more lately.
And as Sarah speaks, the story of their previous weekend unfolds.
I had to get out the family playing cards just to keep track.
It was a Saturday, and their calendar looked like a
complex puzzle of commitments.
And all kids names and ages are changed as well.
But they had a 10 year old daughter, Emma.
She had soccer practice at 9 AM.
Their eight year old son, Tyler had a birthday party to attend at noon.
Their youngest six year old Lily had a playdate scheduled for that afternoon.
Now, on top of this, it was Tyler's actual birthday and family was
coming over for dinner at 6 PM.
Sarah said, Mike took Tyler fishing early that morning.
It's their special birthday tradition.
, and her voice started the soft momentarily.
She said, I handled getting Emma to soccer.
And then I went grocery shopping for the party with Lily and she was
right there with me the entire time.
Now, by the time Sarah returned home around 1130, Mike and
Tyler were back from fishing.
Mike had settled in on the couch and had fallen asleep watching TV
while Tyler played video games.
I didn't want to wake him, Sarah said, glancing over at Mike.
He and Tyler had been up since 5am for their fishing trip.
So I started preparing the birthday dinner, wrapping last
minute gifts, getting Tyler ready for his friend's party.
And while Sarah was in the kitchen preparing food, Emma and
Lily started arguing over a toy.
The noise escalated just as Sarah's phone buzzed with a text from
a neighbor reminding her that she had volunteered to help at a
community fundraiser that evening.
It was tied to Emma's soccer team and that if they didn't show up,
that there was a chance that Emma could get fined and not play.
This was a commitment that she had completely forgotten.
. Sarah's voice started to crack.
She said, I just broke for a moment.
She said, I closed the cabinet door harder than I meant to.
I wasn't really even angry.
I I just felt overwhelmed.
But the slam woke Mike up.
Now, rather than asking what happened, his first words were,
geez, hey, you need to calm down.
And Sarah said, something in me just snapped when he said that.
She said, I was, I was juggling everything, the kids, the
birthday preparations, the forgotten commitment that night.
All the while I was just trying to not disturb his nap because
I didn't want to upset him.
Now when Sarah expressed her frustration, Mike's response was,
Why don't you just ask me for help instead of slamming things around?
And as Sarah recounts this in my office, you can see the tears
start to well up in her eyes.
But that's the thing, Sarah says, I really don't know how asking for help will go,
and she seems so hesitant to say this.
She looked at me and she said, sometimes he will, he jumps right in.
I so appreciate it.
And I know he's busy.
I know he's overwhelmed with work.
I know he's got so many things going on, but I mean, other times he does act
put out or he tells me that, well, if I would just organize things better or
prepare better than he wouldn't have to come in and save me or rescue me.
Now this, Mike looks at me and rolls his eyes dramatically, almost like that.
See what I have to deal with?
He then says, everything becomes this emotional production like you're seeing
now., The tears that have been threatening now just pour down Sarah's cheeks.
And he sits back, folds his arms and says, well, got to wait till this is over.
Her breathing starts to become rapid and shallow.
And it is a textbook emotional flooding response.
Now, before I go any further into this episode and this story, I
want to lay out the origin story of what this episode is about.
And I imagine that I will repeat this in a variety of ways throughout this
episode, but it's a concept that we are going to talk about today, which typically
goes by the name of reactive abuse.
, and today we'll also introduce the name reactive response.
So I posted this to a private women's Facebook group for women who are
in relationships with narcissistic or emotionally immature entities.
And I talked about How often I hear people in sessions or the questions
that I get whenever I am interviewed or I go somewhere to speak about
narcissism or emotional maturity, where people are saying, but I am
mean to him or I am mean to her.
I do lose my temper.
I do yell.
Where let's say that a wife then asks me or she tells me yeah, but I really do I'm
really mean I will yell at him So you may think that I'm this pathologically kind
person, but I'm not I get really angry I get really mad or if it's the guy who's
in the relationship with the emotionally immature or narcissistic female where
then he's saying Right, but then all of a sudden I lose my crap and that's not
okay I'm a big guy or got a deep voice and I know that that's not okay for me to
do I need to not do that And then I would typically circle back in and say, that was
in reaction to how you were being treated.
Or it sounds like it was a buildup of all the things that you had been dealing with
or trying to say for a very long time.
But then at some point your body does keep the score and you can't hold it in any
longer and it comes out with big emotion.
And then here's where I would introduce the phrase that I
thought was very powerful.
And for some people it was reactive abuse.
And for a lot of people that resonates and they say, okay, that, that makes sense.
I am reacting to the emotional or verbal abuse that I'm receiving.
It is a reaction.
I may not be proud of it, but it is a reaction.
But for others, they still just had a hard time with that concept.
So I've been mulling on this for a long time and I couldn't quite put my finger
on why that just wasn't this instant relief for so many of the pathologically
kind people that have been pushed to this edge where then they react, they
get big and their emotions come out.
Now in this private women's
Facebook group, I have a call, a group call every other week.
And as my men's emotional architects group ramps up, we'll also have
calls every other week, but in this one, , before I answered questions,
I posed this, I said, okay, I said, I want to spend some time here.
I really want to understand what is it about the concept or the term reactive
abuse is so difficult for some of you women in the group to, to take in.
And then one lady laid it out so beautifully, she said, okay, the fact
that we're talking about reactive abuse means that my response then is abusive.
She said, because if I'm matching what he is saying, and we're saying that he
is abusing me, even if it's this reactive abuse, even if it's from the emotional
abuse , that he has inflicted on me.
Then what I'm hearing is that I am also now an abuser and that's not okay.
And since that call, I've now shared that with a number of people in sessions.
And I will say every time, honestly, it says, if you watch that person whether in
my office or on a virtual session where they all of a sudden perk up and now they
do feel a little more understood and lean forward and say, okay, that's it because
I am not somebody that talks that way.
Yes.
But I definitely don't want to see myself as someone that would ever
abuse someone like that emotionally.
And even if I am the victim of that abuse that causes me
to react, that's unacceptable.
So even when I am saying, but your body keeps a score, or even if I'm saying it's
a visceral response and your emotions are traveling two and a half times faster
than your logical brain because that's a beautiful built in defense mechanism,
it's there to protect us.
But what that person is saying is, I hear you.
But it's not okay.
I want to not do that.
And what's so difficult about that is it requires one of a few things.
One, to be sure, to be aware of it during the buildup, to be able to
express yourself early and often, so you don't get to the point
where you explode emotionally.
And as you're going to hear more with Mike and Sarah and some of the other
examples today, more than likely, if you've been listening to this podcast,
you've been in situations where you've believed that you have tried to express
yourself and it has not gone very well.
So what do you do there?
Our hope is that we're going to learn to become more differentiated.
You learn to know who you are without needing others to tell you.
necessarily relying on external validation.
I would like for them to know, but I don't need them to know in order
for me to know that it's okay for me to think and feel the way I do.
I need to learn who I am without needing others to tell me who I am.
I need to learn to calm my own anxiety, soothe myself, and
again, be grounded in my response.
I don't have to overreact or go too big, but I also don't play small, because
I think that's where we start to feel like we are betraying our own sense of
self, and I think that can over time lead to these big emotional explosions.
And also, I'm willing to take ownership of my own stuff and make reasonable effort.
I'll embrace the growth, the growth that comes from discomfort, all those
wonderful concepts of differentiation.
But then I do that.
And if I'm in a relationship with an emotionally immature partner,
and again, starting from a basis of we're all emotionally immature
until we're not, then that person doesn't applaud your efforts of becoming more
grounded and becoming more differentiated and setting healthy boundaries.
Oh no, that emotionally immature partner of yours pushes more buttons because
all of a sudden, if they don't get you to react, then they may have to
deal with the fact that they are not showing up well in the relationship,
that they might be the one that isn't taking ownership of their own behavior.
And that is why you are now responding.
So there's a lot of dynamics going on underneath the surface
of this seemingly simple.
Interaction between Sarah and Mike, but I wanted to just frame that for
today's episode that we're talking about reactive response, reactive abuse.
And as we go throughout the rest of this episode today,
I will most likely refer to it as reactive response, but if reactive abuse is the
thing that really speaks to you, then you know that, okay, that makes more
sense to me is why I'm reacting this way.
And then that is wonderful.
But if you're somebody that says, okay, that almost makes
me feel worse, then let's, let's call it your reactive response.
It's your reaction, your response to this behavior that you are receiving.
And I would love to help give you grace , about that response.
Because now that you're learning about what this whole concept is, or this
relationship dynamic, now we can start to work on, what do I do to heal it?
Now we can start to work on it, and it will require a lot
of differentiation skills.
It might require boundary setting.
And if I'm noticing that I'm starting to get elevated, then I need to walk away.
Not that, hey, you need to stop doing that, because , then we're
just handing the emotionally immature or the narcissistic
partner more buttons to press.
So let's continue to go back and break down the game film of Sarah and Mike.
But I just, I really like having that out there that we have that established.
And by the end of this episode, I would love to hear back from you if
you resonated more with the concept of, okay, I feel more sane hearing
that it's just a natural response.
It's to this reactive abuse, or if you feel more validated or it makes more
sense to you to say, I might be receiving that, but I don't like thinking of
me as one who would abuse my partner.
It is a response, and I would love to get your examples as you hear more
about these nuances as you hear about the examples today, because I think the
more stories that we can get out there and share about what resonates with you,
the more I think the people that continue to listen to the podcast start to feel
heard and understood, and that is a huge lift to their emotional baseline to put
them in a position Where they can start to heal themselves now, immediately in,
even in these unhealthy relationships.
So back to the story.
Let's analyze what really is happening in this dynamic between Sarah and Mike.
I call it invisible labor.
Sarah is carrying the mental and emotional load of, it feels like 99 percent of the
household managing schedules, remembering commitments, anticipating needs, and this
invisible labor remains unacknowledged.
And , there is a cost to pay.
It is a significant burning of emotional calories,
and can leave one feeling depleted.
But let's now dip into the emotional immaturity signals from Mike.
I think it's safe to say that Mike lacks awareness of others experiences.
Honestly, while Sarah is managing multiple responsibilities.
He's dismissing emotional responses.
Telling her to do things like calm down.
Making her emotional response about him.
See what I have to deal with offering criticisms instead of support,
public undermining, eye rolling, zero curiosity about her experience.
And it puts Sarah in a bit of a double bind.
Sarah's caught in a no end situation.
If she asks for help, she now knows that she risks criticism or this reluctant
assistance that creates more tension.
And it can most likely come with a price.
Well, I did this for you.
Now, what are you going to do for me?
If she handles the things herself and shows any stress, then she's labeled as
emotionally unstable or underprepared.
Mike is also engaging in emotional invalidation.
Every emotional response from Sarah is framed as a problem, an
overreaction, a character flaw, rather than she's a normal human being
that is going through an experience.
Which, by the way, for the first time, in that moment, all
those things coming together.
There is no playbook for that.
She's just having a normal human reaction to being overwhelmed.
Pattern recognition.
Sarah's statement about never knowing how asking for help is going to go, indicates
that this is not an isolated incident, but it's a repeated pattern that has taught
her to expect inconsistent responses.
She does not feel emotional safety.
Because of his emotional inconsistency.
Now, Sarah's slamming of the cabinet it wasn't a random anger issue.
It was a pressure release valve after a prolonged emotional strain.
Her emotional response in my office isn't evidence of instability.
It's her body's natural reaction to having her reality questioned
while simultaneously feeling shamed and wondering if she has this.
opportunity to maybe get help or feel heard from the therapist.
So this is just such a classic example of how someone can be pushed into
a reactive state through sustained emotional dismissal and then these
unbalanced relationship dynamics.
Sarah isn't developing anger problems.
She's experiencing the natural consequences of emotional invalidation
and unstable expectations.
It can start to sound a little bit bipolar y, borderline y, just meaning
that when she finally does feel heard and understood, it can be euphoric and she
wants to just soak every bit of that up.
But then it can switch so quickly based off of his reaction that then she can
pull back and withdraw and then even be labeled more as the crazy one.
So let's reframe this a little bit.
Imagine that you are just a peaceful person.
You value kindness and respect, and then imagine being placed
in an environment where your reality is constantly questioned.
Your boundaries are repeatedly violated and your emotional well
being is continually undermined.
Eventually, your nervous system simply can't take it anymore, and you will
respond with behaviors that don't align with who you know yourself to be.
Maybe you will start to yell or slam doors or say hurtful things that you later
regret or play small or lose yourself and not do the things that you like to do.
Now, this is not you becoming an abuser and this is your mind and
your body's natural alarm system going off after too much stress.
It is like the difference between somebody who routinely starts fires
for fun versus somebody who pulls a fire alarm because they smell smoke.
Both actions create noise and disruption, and there is fire involved,
but the intent, the pattern, and the context are entirely different.
So I think it's so important that we explore this crucial
distinction between reactive response and actual abusive behavior.
I
think it's important to talk more about why these things
happen and that will lead you to learn how to better recognize it.
And more importantly, how to reconnect with your authentic self when you've
been pushed into these reactive states,
because understanding this difference isn't just about terminology it's
about releasing the shame and the confusion that then keeps people
stuck in these harmful situations.
So before I continue down this reactive response path, I really want to establish
a couple of important frameworks that I think will help explain why
these relationship dynamics become so entrenched and difficult to escape.
Often talk about the pathologically kind partner.
In my many years as a couples therapist, most of the struggling
relationships I see don't involve two equally dysfunctional people.
We've got all of our own brand of dysfunction.
And that's where I typically see the, what I call the pathologically kind spouse
paired with an, And even more emotionally immature partner writing right up to the
line of narcissistic traits, tendencies, or narcissistic personality disorder.
And I think it's so important to, to recognize kindness itself is beautiful.
Healthy kindness is an amazing thing.
But I think we don't often know what healthy kindness looks like because
it does come with setting appropriate boundaries while still being generous.
Think of somebody who would genuinely enjoy hosting family gatherings, but
they clearly communicate that they need things to end at 10 because
they have to work the next day.
They're generous with their home, they're generous with their time, but they
are aware of and protecting their own needs, staying connected to themselves.
So they're offering support without sacrificing their own wellbeing.
Healthy kindness is someone that learns to feel, I don't know if we
would say comfortable, but they learn that saying no is okay when necessary.
Think of somebody that would decline to volunteer at a school fundraiser during
a particularly busy work period, or when they have a whole lot of things going
on in their home, offering instead to contribute in a way that fits their
current capacity, maybe making a donation or helping at a future event.
And this is one that can sound like I am encouraging the tit for
tat, which I am not, but I think healthy kindness can look like.
Mutually reciprocal relationships,
because if someone is the one who continues to initiate all the get
togethers with the friend for months, or if you're the one that does the lion's
share of the driving, even though you both have kids going and to and from
the same activities, and I'm saying that this isn't the case where the other
parent is unavailable, But kindness is a pathology is when it starts to
become detrimental to your health.
And sometimes that detriment can just even be in the frustration if you know
that you are willing to do everything.
So the other parent says, well, I mean, if you probably like doing
it so you can continue to do it.
So healthy kindness can be recognizing when you're giving
is appreciated and valued.
And if you do value reciprocity when.
It is reciprocated.
Now, kindness becomes pathological when you consistently prioritize others
needs above your own essential needs.
I think about people that haven't been to a doctor in years, despite very
obvious or concerning symptoms, because they're in essence, too busy taking
everyone else to the places that they need to go helping neighbors with errands
or covering for colleagues at work.
Pathological kindness often looks like someone who feels guilty
about setting any boundaries.
Somebody who answers work calls during their child's recital or their anniversary
dinner or at 2 a. m. because saying I'm unavailable right now makes them feel bad.
They don't want this other person to think that I am a bad person.
It makes them feel selfish even though no emergency necessarily exists.
Pathological kindness is believing it's selfish to take care of yourself.
Think of somebody who apologizes profusely for quickly grabbing a
bite to eat before they go somewhere because they're running behind.
Or someone who apologizes profusely , if they weren't able to respond to
somebody else's text immediately.
Pathological kindness looks like somebody who stays in harmful situations because
leaving would hurt the other person.
Think of somebody who remains in a relationship where they're regularly
belittled and criticized because, well, I worry that he would be devastated
if I left, or he doesn't really know how to find the emails from the
school, or she doesn't have anyone else who understands her like I do.
Making excuses for somebody else's poor treatment is the
sign of the pathologically kind.
I often see people who explain away their partner's cruel comments with,
you know, he's just really stressed with work, or she really didn't mean it.
She's she just didn't get it.
She's, she's getting a lot of sleep.
She didn't get a lot of sleep when that behavior has been consistent for years.
Pathological kindness is someone who keeps giving despite receiving
little or nothing in return.
Think of somebody who continues lending money to a friend who never
repays it drives a relative who never offers gas money, or somebody
who takes on extra projects for a colleague who then takes all the credit.
And I would imagine those last examples were probably pretty awkward or difficult
for people because it's easy for me to say, but it's okay, I'm happy to do that.
But that might be where that kindness is pathological.
What are you giving up in order to make things easier for this
person to the detriment of yourself?
I see this often, the pathologically kind spends far too long in trying
to craft the perfect message or the perfect text if they are trying to
ask for something, request something simple from their partner because
they're trying to anticipate and prevent any possible negative reaction.
And they still end up apologizing repeatedly if
the person gets upset anyway.
So I think these examples, I tried to find ones that are going to be a little
difficult to hear because they will sound selfish, but self care is not selfish.
I think these examples show how healthy kindness maintains
personal integrity and balance.
And pathological kindness becomes somewhat self erasing and ultimately unsustainable.
You will lose your sense of self.
And remember, pathological kindness is not a character flaw because it stems
from childhood experiences where you learned that your value was tied to taking
care of others or keeping the peace.
You were most likely a human doing, not a human being.
The counterpart in these relationships is the emotionally immature partner.
Now what does that mean?
I want to give you a few brief examples to illustrate that as well.
The emotionally immature partner has a lot of difficulty identifying
and expressing feelings.
Think of somebody who can't distinguish between feeling sad or angry or anxious.
They just know they feel bad and they responded by shutting down or lashing out.
Now when asked how they feel, they might say, fine.
Or they might explode with, well, I'm not good and you're making me
crazy, but what they're actually experiencing is maybe disappointment
or frustration or embarrassment.
The emotionally immature have limited empathy for others emotional experiences.
You can think of somebody who responds to their partner's work promotion with
concerns about how that new schedule is going to inconvenience them, completely
missing their partner's excitement.
Or somebody who responds to a friend's grief by saying, well, you know, at least
they lived a long life or yeah, no, I know exactly what that's like I've had,
and then they make it about them and how they dealt with it immediately changing
the subject because at the core of that emotional pain makes them uncomfortable.
But a big one from the emotionally mature is externalizing blame
rather than taking responsibility.
You can think of somebody who arrives late to every gathering, but always
has a very elaborate explanation involving traffic and other people and
circumstances beyond their control and how they're saving the world at work
and how nobody understands what they do.
Couldn't be about not planning to leave early
or when they're confronted, they might say things like, well, if you hadn't chosen
a restaurant so far away or a time , that was more convenient for, I'm sure all
of us just never would have happened.
The emotionally immature also exhibit poor impulse control and emotional regulation.
The, if somebody who becomes very, very agitated when waiting in line, sighing
loudly, making sarcastic comments somebody who responds to minor frustrations,
like a spilled drink by throwing things or cursing or storming out of the
room and emotionally immature people.
Struggle with black or white, all or nothing thinking somebody who describes
others as either amazing or toxic, nothing in between, or who quits activities
after the first setback, because I'm just terrible at this, or this isn't
fair, or they might say a former friends they're dead to me now, after a simple
little disagreement, the emotionally mature, have a great difficulty
tolerating criticism or perceived slights.
You can think of somebody who responds to just even general feedback
about something that, that was hard for me to take or to deal with.
Oh yeah.
Well, I guess I can't do anything right.
Or who brings up a minor comment from months ago that they're still heard about.
They might withdraw completely when their idea isn't chosen for a project.
Or the emotionally mature immediate comfort over long term growth.
Think of somebody who consistently chooses a path of least resistance,
, avoiding difficult conversations, quitting challenging pursuits,
making impulsive purchases they can't afford, even when those choices
create bigger problems down the road.
And the emotionally immature have resistance to self reflection and personal
growth, even though they will tell you that they are very reflective and growing.
You can think of somebody who just responds to relationship patterns
of that's just the way I am, or if people can't handle me at my
worst, then that's a them thing.
You know, they might attend therapy only to find validation for their
perspective instead of trying to understand how their contributions.
May cause certain things to happen in the relationship, even negative things.
And the emotionally immature use manipulation to get their needs met.
Somebody who gets their way through subtle threats, subtle digs.
Man, if you really loved me, or yeah, I guess I'm unlovable or guilt tripping.
After all I've done for you.
Or creating crises that require everybody to drop everything and help.
They might forget important tasks so that somebody else will take over.
Or exaggerate ailments to receive care and attention.
These behaviors, these emotionally immature behaviors.
often arise from underdeveloped emotional skills.
I don't think that they are always from a place of malintent, but they
create significant relationship problems, especially when you have
that emotionally mature partner paired with a pathologically kind partner
who then excuses or accommodates these behaviors instead of learning
how to set healthy boundaries.
And I'll go back to the concept where I don't believe that these are
all necessarily conscious choices.
I think so often the emotionally immature person just never developed
the crucial skills to, to handle their emotions correctly because
of upbringing or experiences.
Ross Rosenberg, who's the author of the human magnet syndrome, I
think brilliantly describes these relationships as breakup resistant.
And I just have to share in a previous podcast, I had talked
about insights on this phenomenon.
He says, codependency is both a relationship and an individual
condition that can only be resolved by the codependent.
Many codependents are attracted to and maintain longterm breakup
resistant relationships with pathological narcissists.
Ross said that most codependents are selfless and differential to the needs
and desires of others over themselves.
He said they're pathologically caring, responsible, and sacrificing
people whose altruism and good deeds are rarely reciprocated.
While some codependents are resigned to their seemingly permanent relationship
role, he said others actively, albeit unsuccessfully, attempt to change it.
These people become preoccupied with opportunities to avoid, change, and or
control their narcissistic partners.
Now, despite the inequities in their relationship and the
suffering that that brings on, they do not end the partnerships.
He said, codependency is not just limited to romantic relationships.
As it manifests itself in varying degrees and most other significant relationships.
And this is what Ross says creates Human Magnet Syndrome.
Now, the reason I like going back to that is he said a pathologically caring and
then he named other traits of the person and I thought he said pathologically kind.
So now I guess I get to, to own that one.
That that is a me thing.
So I believe that the harder the pathologically kind person tries
to figure out the relationship, the crazier they feel.
Meanwhile, the narcissist or the emotionally immature person learns
consciously or subconsciously how to manipulate the dynamic for their gain.
The more that they engage, the more the pathologically kind person hands them
over buttons to push that will keep them stuck in this, what will feel like a never
ending relationship pattern of negativity.
Understanding these fundamentals, I think, helps understand why reactive
responses occur and why they're so often mischaracterized as abuse, because
when somebody with that pathological kindness finally reaches their breaking
point , after a sustained period of emotional neglect or manipulation,
their reactions aren't abusive.
They're inevitable.
Now that we've established this foundation,
Let's explore how the dynamics set the stage for what's often
then mislabeled as abuse.
When a pathologically kind person with strong emotional awareness is paired
with this emotionally immature partner, then we see this predictable pattern.
The pattern creates a perfect condition for what I think would
be more accurately described as something like a reactive distress
response rather than reactive abuse.
I want to give you some other examples from the office of the marriage therapist,
where all the details have been changed.
But I want to show how these patterns of emotional immaturity and narcissism
lead to these reactive responses.
Too often I see patterns of intimidation.
Think of a husband who uses his physical presence his voice, his size to
control the interactions with his wife.
He never technically hits her, but he corners her during arguments, he blocks
doorways when she tries to disengage, , kicks furniture when frustrated,
and he punches walls near her head.
When she expresses opinions he disagrees with, he looms
over her until she backs down.
And at night then he deliberately disrupts her sleep, he turns on lights, he makes
noise if she's upset him earlier.
His friends and family see him as passionate but harmless, because
he's a good provider, but she lives in constant hypervigilance.
So how might the reactive response come into play?
Well, in this scenario, after three years of this escalating pattern, an
argument about finances starts to spiral.
And then he follows her from room to room as she tries to create distance,
eventually backing her into the bedroom, where he blocks the only exit,
screaming about her disrespecting him.
And when her repeated requests for him to move are ignored, and he steps
closer, she pushes him hard enough to move him from the doorway, she
screams, and she runs to her car.
Later, when he tells family that she attacked him, she's overwhelmed with
shame, and confusion about whether she's being too abusive as well.
Or another example, I once worked with a wife who presented as a very
sweet and accommodating person to the outside world, but you could see
the way that she would systematically undermine her husband's confidence.
She would never raise her voice or make direct criticisms, but would
respond to his accomplishments with just little dismissals.
Oh, I mean that that's nice.
I mean his brother seems to have that figured out better in their
family or she amplifies his mistakes.
He mentioned something that he's done well, and she quickly says well,
it's about time because remember when you messed this thing up Or when he
expresses hurt feelings, she sighs deeply and says, man, you are sensitive.
I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around you.
So despite his dedicated financial support, where he works extra
hours to make sure that she can have the lifestyle that she wants,
they consult on all financial decisions.
And then he prioritizes her wishes for things like home renovation, vacations.
She periodically suggests to friends and family that he's controlling with money.
Now when they're alone, she'll say things like, I feel financially
trapped in this marriage.
Or, most husbands wouldn't make their wives account for every penny.
But in reality, she has full access to their accounts.
A very generous personal spending allowance and he frequently
surprises her with gifts.
But when he presents evidence of this financial generosity,
then she shifts tactics.
Oh, we're keeping score?
Or, it's not about the money itself, it's about how you make me feel about money.
She knows his people pleasing nature means that these accusations devastate him.
It sends him into cycles of overcompensating, taking on
additional work to increase their income, or insisting that she make
major purchases without consulting.
Or she says, I need to be able to make these major purchases without
consulting you because I can't trust you, how you're going to react.
Or even in one scenario that I worked with, transferring his inheritance
into her name to prove trust.
No matter what changes he makes, she never acknowledges his efforts or
her role in creating the dynamic.
So instead, she'll find new ways to subtly suggest that he's still
somehow She forgets important events related to his family.
She claims frequent headaches when it's his turn to choose
activities and withdraws affection after minor disagreements while
denying that anything's wrong.
And when he tries to discuss relationship issues, she tears up and she whispers,
just try so hard to make you happy.
Now here comes his reactive response after.
Seven, eight years of this dynamic there at a family gathering where
she spent hours and hours subtly undermining him on a long car ride there,
finishing his stories with corrections, exchanging knowing glances with her
sister when he speaks and responding to his suggestions about things that
they're going to do in the future with, well, we'll see if that's realistic.
When her sister asked about their recent kitchen renovation, she sighs and says,
well, yeah, you finally got it done.
But you know how he is about spending money on anything that I want.
Something in this moment, after years of financial sacrifice, seeing
absolutely no recognition of his efforts, breaks inside of him.
So when they returned to the car, she makes another comment.
It's passive aggressive about his driving.
And he suddenly slams his hand on the dashboard and shouts, Just stop.
For once in your life, please just stop.
I've given you everything I possibly can.
She immediately begins crying.
She calls her sister.
She jumps out of the car.
She describes how scary and out of control he's becoming.
Adding, This is exactly what happens whenever I bring up finances.
Within hours, several family members have texted him about his financial
abuse and his anger issues and he spends the next weeks apologizing, offering
to put her name on additional assets, attending anger management classes while
she tells friends she's trying to be supportive through his issues, but she's
not sure if she can do this anymore.
The actual dynamics of their financial relationship , and her deliberate poking
and prodding, they remain completely invisible to everybody in their circle.
I'll give you one more based on real experiences.
Think of a husband who openly positions himself as superior to his wife.
He criticizes her appearance, her intelligence, and her
parenting in front of everybody.
Somebody had to tell her those pants aren't flattering or dismisses her
opinions with eye rolls or interruptions.
And he openly flirts with other women in her presence.
He makes unilateral decisions about major purchases or travel plans saying,
you know that I'm better with the finances.
So when she accomplishes something, he either diminishes it.
Honestly, anybody can do that with enough time, but yeah, no, I'm proud of you.
Or suggests that he was responsible for her successes.
And if she objects to it, then he launches into detailed lists of her
flaws and shortcomings, often bringing up mistakes from years ago, decades ago.
He openly mocks her emotions as dramatic and irrational, and he tells her that
she's lucky that he tolerates her.
What eventually comes out in her reactive response is after over a decade
of this treatment, they're attending marriage counseling as a last resort.
When the therapist asks about their communication pattern, he
launches into a rehearsed speech about her emotional instability.
And as he's describing a recent argument where he said, I remained
calm, she lost it, deliberately misrepresenting what happened.
Something breaks inside of her.
She interrupts him.
Her voice is shaking and she says, that's not what happened.
You're lying.
And when he tries to speak over her, she raises her voice for the
first time in their relationship saying, no, I am speaking now and
proceeds to detail his pattern of manipulation with specific examples.
And later he then tells friends and family and even reach back out to the
therapist saying she had a complete.
Meltdown.
Tell me that wasn't a nervous breakdown.
You saw it in your office and that she verbally attacked him in therapy,
proving his point about her instability, but in each one of these cases, the
reactive response follows a long established pattern of mistreatment.
And it occurs when normal coping mechanisms are exhausted, they've
been tried, and it's completely out of character for that person.
And then it's immediately reframed by the emotionally immature partner
as evidence of this abuse or this instability, and that causes deep shame
and confusion in the person who reacted.
but I hope you can see it's isolated rather than a part of this
systemic pattern of control from the pathologically kind person.
So I think these are the types of examples that illustrate how reactions that might
appear similar on the surface, pushing, yelling, screaming, interrupting.
They seem very similar to the emotionally immature or narcissistic
partner, but they have entirely different meanings depending on the
context, the history, and the intent.
Okay.
So to you, my, my pathologically kind listening friend, let's
talk about the cycle that leads now to these reactive responses.
Uh, it starts, I think, with the slow erosion.
I. So the emotionally immature partner consistently prioritizes them.
It is it is all about them, their comfort.
They dismiss their partner's feelings.
They avoid responsibility for relationship problems, and each incident
will start to see minor in isolation.
We start getting this death by a thousand cuts kind of vibe.
So then that leads to accumulating stress.
So now the pathologically kind partner starts to just absorb these experiences.
They make excuses for their partner, oh, he's tired or she really didn't mean that.
Or it's I did probably do something wrong.
So they're making excuses that leads to them trying harder and suppressing
their own needs and their own emotions to try and keep the peace,
but their nervous system starts to become in incredibly overloaded.
Which leads to physical manifestations.
The body keeps the score.
And I think one of the challenges is, yes, I love the concept of differentiation
and growth through discomfort, but then there's also the body keeps the score.
So I do think that that's a battle that one needs to be aware of and it, and
you're the only one that will really know the answer is this my body telling me?
What are you doing?
Get outta here.
Where boundaries please.
Or is this a, you know what I can, I'm, this isn't who I am, who they
are trying to tell me that I am thank you for that information and I'm okay.
I can stay grounded, I can stay calm, but this physical manifestations the kind
partner may develop tension headaches.
There's a lot of digestive issues especially that come in from childhood.
How many people that I've worked with that have things like IBS, irritable
bowel syndrome or just a nervous stomach or sleep disturbances or
anxiety symptoms as their system.
Remains in this constant stress response, this constant fight or flight.
Those neurons that fire together wire together over time, so someone's baseline,
cortisol, stress level can start to just rise like the tides, which leads
to a breaking point at some point.
Eventually, even a seemingly small incident, it becomes the straw
that breaks the camel's back, the kind partner's capacity for
containing all of these big emotions.
It breaks, , it overflows.
They can no longer hold it in, and that leads to the outburst.
They might yell or cry uncontrollably, slam doors, say hurtful things, or engage
in behaviors that feel so foreign to them in their normal personality and the way
that they typically show up in the world, which makes them even more frustrated,
which leads to very harmful mislabeling.
Here's where the damaging mislabeling occurs.
The emotionally immature partner often then genuinely shocked by this
outburst labels these reactions is.
Now you're abusing me or you are crazy or you are unstable.
And this unfortunately accomplishes a lot of things.
It reframes the entire narrative.
Now we're casting the emotionally immature person as the victim.
'cause I think it's important to, to acknowledge that the victim still
has that one up status because now it becomes about them and it allows
the emotionally immature partner to avoid accountability for the behaviors
that contributed to their partner's breaking point to their distress.
And it creates shame and confusion in the kind partner.
Remember guilt is, oh, okay, I maybe did something bad.
Shame is I am bad.
And that is what is so difficult for that pathologically kind person
because they take that so deep, they take that much more seriously.
It means so much more to them than the emotionally immature partner
who is just throwing this out to try to get rid of their discomfort and
diffuse it into the relationship.
Now you've got this kind partner who questions their own character
and their own stability.
This is why this gaslighting this projection, this putting the anger,
the diffusing the emotionally immature narcissist frustration into the
relationship is it's cruel because that pathologically kind person will
pick it up and try to fix it, but it just gets rid of the discomfort for
the emotionally immature partner.
And so that further entrenches this power imbalance in the relationship.
So, lemme see if I can sell you the pathologically kind person on why this
isn't actually abuse that you are doing.
Because true abuse involves patterns of power control, intentional harm.
It's more about domination.
Reactive responses and contrast are they're sporadic rather than systematic.
They're defensive rather than offensive responses to harm
rather than an initiation of harm.
They're expressions of accumulated pain rather than attempts to control,
and they are often followed by remorse and confusion rather than the
satisfaction that you can see on the face sometimes of the emotionally immature,
which is part of the whole problem.
The emotionally immature partner, consciously or subconsciously, maybe it's
just in their programming, is pushing your buttons, trying to get you to react.
I want you to think of all the greatest hits, the buttons that, that
you know that they're gonna go to.
And that's where the work begins.
That's where you learn to say, okay, is there truth in this?
Which most likely there's not.
I want you to operate from a 90% solid, a 10% flexible sense of self.
You are good.
So when they have a problem with what you are doing, then tell me more about
that, or, I don't have to listen to this.
Because they need you to react in order to know what to do next
rather than confront themselves.
The narcissist, the emotionally immature partner.
They need to find the right button of yours to push to get you to react.
So now they can point the finger across the aisle at you.
This is why it's so important for you to, to get the help you need
to go to a therapist, listen to anything and everything that I
put out about differentiation or gaslighting, because you don't deserve
to be in a relationship like this.
But I know so many of you, men, women, nobody.
Nobody deserves to be in a relationship where their version of
reality is constantly challenged, where there's a lack of curiosity.
Where you're not allowed to be your own person, you're two humans that are
getting in a relationship together, of course you're gonna be different.
A relationship is not a contest, it's not a zero sum game.
There's not supposed to be a winner and a loser in a conversation.
There doesn't even have to be resolution.
Most of the time the goal is to be heard.
The winner loser concept is an all or nothing black or white concept, and that
is emotional immaturity in its finest.
If somebody says, and this is a very real example, that you're financially abusive
and in a scenario I'm talking about, you are the person who pathologically
gives you give and you give and you give, and you give your time.
You'll work more, you'll work harder.
You don't say no to anybody but your spouse because of maybe they're outta
control spending, for example, doesn't want to deal with their own discomfort or
take ownership of the things that they do.
Then all they have to do is push a button that will feel
so out of left field to you.
You will feel so unseen.
Because you give them everything that you can.
Let's even take money out of it.
You give your time.
There's those that I work with that sacrifice the their needs and their
wants to accommodate the emotionally immature people or person in their
family so that that person won't think that you are selfish because that's
the biggest fear you have because you are so selfless or you're so worried
about you being the narcissist.
All they have to do is call you selfish or say that they think that
your behaviors seem a bit narcissistic and then you, my pathologically kind
friend will most likely lose your mind or get emotionally upset because
those are the things that you're doing everything that you can do and hopes
that nobody will mistake you for abusive.
Selfish, narcissistic, or financially not supportive.
So then you're the one who will go do the work.
Am I the narcissist?
Am I not supportive?
Okay, I'll go spend days, weeks, months, trying to figure that out.
Reading books, listening to podcasts, might even start going
to see a therapist about it.
I've had so many people that come into my office of wanting to say, no, I need
to figure out what is wrong with me.
What if it's nothing's wrong with you.
You're a human going through life for the very first time.
Because meanwhile, the emotionally immature or the narcissist, they got outta
their discomfort and they're back to just doing the things that they've been doing.
They got outta their discomfort and now they feel better.
And you are the one then going off listening to podcasts like
mine, asking the number one question that I get in the emails.
I think it might be a narcissist.
Where again, if you are an hour into a podcast called Waking Up the
Narcissism, trying to figure out if you are, holy cow, you, you weren't when
you first asked yourself the question.
It's the emotionally immature partner who in essence is saying, I'm not.
You are.
And you have to prove it.
Okay, this one's going a little bit long today, my friends 'cause uh, buckle up.
'cause I do want to now cover in this scenario, let's go through
David Arch's four points of Balance.
Because becoming differentiated, it's how do you hide your buttons
for the emotionally immature partner so that they can't push those
buttons if you're not currently willing or able to set a boundary.
For example, if your emotionally immature partner starts down that you
are financially abusive and you've heard this, it's for the hundredth time.
It's 'cause it works.
'cause it makes you feel so angry because you've done everything in your power to
prove to this person that you are not, and bless your pathologically kind heart.
My friend in this point, she pushes that button because it works,
because it causes you to react.
Now is the time to grow through the discomfort.
Trying to explain to her in a moment like that definitely falls
into the I want validation bucket.
I need you to understand this is not who I am.
You're trying to convince her that you're not financially abusive, but
you know, you need to know through that conversation that you aren't.
So David Arch's, four Points of Balance, which I'll go through so quickly, but
that is first, knowing who you are without needing others to tell you,
having a solid, but again, I'll say albeit a flexible sense of self, I'm
starting from a place of I'm good, but I do wanna be the best version of me.
So I'll take in the data, but what if 90% of the time you're gonna
respond with, oh, thank you, period.
Because if I'm having to defend myself or prove myself of things
that I know not to be true.
Is that person even being curious or are they just throwing that
over at me and then saying, okay, deal with that typically works.
And then that second point of balance is being able to calm your yourself,
soothe yourself, calm your own anxiety that is so necessary that comes through.
Everything from somatic healing.
You might have to go to a rage room and break some things.
Or the opposite, do yoga, mindfulness, meditation.
Learn to build in that pause.
Get yourself grounded, calm yourself.
So you can get to this third point of balance, which is a grounded
response, which means I don't overreact, but there's a key here too.
I also don't play small, so I'm not just gonna cower.
I'm not just gonna give in, but I'm grounded because I know who I am and I can
call my own anxiety, which leads to the fourth point of balance, where here we go
with the growth through the discomfort, and I'll take ownership of, there's
something there that I'm understanding or hearing that is true and I hadn't thought
of, or something that I had committed to and I didn't do then yeah, thank
you for bringing that to my attention.
Now when you tell me what a horrible person I am.
That's where the boundary might come in.
Hey, I, I acknowledge that.
I said I will do that, and I didn't.
Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
I'll take care of that.
Well, you're a piece of whatever.
Okay.
If you're gonna call me names now then I'll leave.
There's a boundary.
If you do this, then I will do this.
And one of the biggest, I don't wanna say challenge, but you can also take ownership
of something and then it feels better.
But then.
Shahar says another point in there where he says, and then take action for change.
It's something like that.
So once I take ownership of it, I still have to do something about it, but just
those four points of balance alone, and it takes a lot more work than me just saying.
It is just those four points of balance.
But that's where you can start to learn about yourself through
the discomfort in a relationship.
Okay, so let's go back to the things that lead to the reactive response and then
let's let's wrap this up and take us home.
You know that these reactions are typically out of character.
For who you are.
They're not consistent with your normal behavioral patterns.
But is the poking consistent with the emotionally immature partner?
The questioning, the button pushing?
I, I think it's safe to say most likely.
Think of the difference between somebody who , regularly uses physical
intimidation to control other people, versus somebody who after being cornered
and threatened repeatedly, finally pushes back to create space to escape.
Yeah.
Both of those things involve physical force, but the context the pattern,
the intent, those things are very different and they do matter.
It puts the pathologically kind person in a bit of a double bind because the
person experiencing reactive distress binds themselves sometimes in what
feels like an impossible situation.
'cause if they continue to suppress their feelings, they damage their
physical and their mental health.
If they express their distress, they're labeled abusive or unstable.
If they try to explain the pattern, they're accused of making excuses
or playing the victim, or it's turned right around on them.
If they seek validation from others, they risk only sharing their own reactive
moments without the context that led to those moments and then of themselves,
where then people will say, well, it sounds like you had a role in that too.
And this just creates profound confusion and self-doubt, which leads to what
therapists recognize as a trauma response.
The, that, that reaction or questioning one's own perceptions or experiences
or even their, their sanity.
So I want to help you break free from that label, whatever that label
is that you're putting on yourself.
'cause recognizing reactive responses for what they are, their normal human
reactions to abnormal relationship dynamics, understanding that's one of the
first steps toward healing when we remove the abuser label from your reaction.
Now we can reduce the shame that keeps people trapped in
these harmful relationships.
You can now create space for appropriate accountability, hopefully on both sides.
And this starts to open the door to developing healthier emotional regulation
and boundary setting, which is gonna be so key because it's a lot healthier at
first to set the boundary than to try to stay in a, in a, an emotionally abusive
moment and try to breathe through it.
No, that's a, if this is happening, then I need to leave.
And this will help allow for genuine healing rather than
just managing your behavior.
I just want to emphasize having a reactive response does not make
you an abuser, makes you a human.
And the path forward is not about suppressing those responses is about
first understanding them honoring the valid distress signals that they are your
body's trying to communicate something to you, and then create circumstances
where they're there to inform you and they're no longer trying to help you
with your emotional survival because our emotions are trying to communicate to us.
But when we finally start to listen to 'em, they're probably screaming.
So I hope today, I guess we're the, what do we learn today?
We've navigated this territory of what happens when kind, empathetic
people find themselves behaving in ways they never thought possible, and
it's after prolonged emotional strain.
And hopefully you can see how the relationships often form between the
pathologically kind person and the more emotionally immature partners,
and that creates what Ross Rosenberg says in his book, human Magnet
Syndrome Break Up Resistant Dynamics.
The pathologically kind person continually accommodates and explains
away poor treatment, and they prioritize other people's needs.
While that emotionally immature partner avoids accountability,
they externalize their blame and they struggle with empathy.
And so I hope you could see the difference as well between healthy kindness, which
does include boundaries and self-care and a genuine desire for reciprocity
and pathological kindness, sacrifices.
Essential needs, for others'.
Comfort.
And we also saw how emotional immaturity manifest in very cookie cutter
concrete behaviors, like difficulty identifying feelings, lashing out
emotional immaturity is truly seeing a grownup human being, acting like
a child limited perspective, taking manipulative tactics to avoid discomfort.
And then I hope most of all, we reframed the concept of reactive abuse,
recognizing that these responses.
They aren't abuse, but they're normal human reactions, again,
to abnormal relationship stress.
But the key difference lies in the pattern, intent, and context.
True abuse is systematic, it's intentional, and it's aimed at control.
Reactive responses are gonna be sporadic, defensive, and basically
expressions of accumulated pain.
One's about domination.
The other is about the human nervous system reaching its capacity.
And it can't, it can't hold in anymore.
Now if the term reactive abuse though, does work for you, if
that's helped you feel free, then own that because it's your journey.
But I think I now can understand why that term can also for some reinforce shame
and self-doubt, which is keeping some people trapped in this harmful dynamic
by equating their occasional reactions.
With their partner's consistent patterns of emotional neglect or manipulation.
If you prefer a reactive response, use that term, embrace that thing.
So I want to be very dramatic and crystal clear about this distinction that when we
label somebody's defensive reactions as abuse, it's a form of false equivalence.
It's like saying both the fire starter and the fire alarm are equally destructive
because both create noise and disruption.
And that term reactive abuse inadvertently serves those who benefit from confusion
and shame because it creates a narrative where everybody is equally responsible.
And that erases the context of who constantly holds power in the
relationship and how that power's wielded.
' cause what we're really witnessing in these scenarios is the human
spirit's natural response to conditions it was never designed to endure.
These reactions don't reveal character flaws.
They reveal that your.
Your system is working correctly by signaling that something is
deeply wrong in your environment.
So I would love to help you start to reframe these as reactive responses.
'cause now we're honoring both the reality of the distress and the
humanity of the person experiencing it.
Because now we're creating space for accountability without shame.
Healing without denial of of the genuine harm that led to these reactions.
So to those of you listening still, thank you first of all, and if you
recognize yourself in some of today's stories, if you felt the that burning
shame of acting in ways that don't align with your values or who you know
yourself to be, or who you want to be.
If you've questioned your own sanity, when your reactions were labeled as as the
primary problem, have a message for you.
I know that your reaction is not your character.
It's just a chapter in a story.
It's not your entire story.
The fact that you care so deeply about those moments when you've fallen short
of your own standards says something profound about who you truly are.
'cause that shame you feel is not evidence of your brokenness.
It's evidence of your intact moral compass that's trying to guide and navigate
sometimes impossible circumstances.
So I want a wind machine.
I want a soapbox.
I wanna say from this day forward, reframe that experience.
When the phrase reactive abuse enters your mind, consciously replace that with
reactive response or survival response, and notice how the small shift changes
how you view yourself and become a compassionate witness to your own story.
Look at you in the context of that moment you're trying to survive.
Instead of judging your reactions, get curious about 'em when you can.
What were they trying to protect?
What needs were you desperately seeking?
Because most likely it was, I do want to be seen, I want to be heard.
I want someone to be curious because I'm curious about them.
I, I want us to get to the point of living and not continually
just having these silly, petty arguments that just get us nowhere.
, reclaim your narrative.
You are the author of your own life story.
You're not, it's a villain.
And I worry that that's what , you are being portrayed as.
But start writing the story with all of its complexity and pain, but also all
the possibility because we need to start viewing this as somebody is not defined
by their worst moments, but as somebody who's very sensitivity to those moments
reveals their capacity for growth.
You're over an hour into a podcast about this for repeat's sake.
You're growing and practice one small act of self-trust every day, whether
it's honoring a boundary, expressing a need, or just simply acknowledging.
Your own experience without needing somebody else to tell you it's okay.
Tell yourself it's okay.
Rebuild trust with yourself one moment at a time.
'cause I think it's important to remember the system that labeled your
humanity as abusive counts on your shame to keep you silent and compliant.
Your healing is not just personal.
Your healing can honestly be somewhat revolutionary because you're gonna
also model this for your kids.
You're gonna start mapping a new way that we show up in
relationships every time you choose self-compassion over self condemnation.
You're taken apart the very dynamic that attempts to define
you by your reactions instead of the conditions that created them.
And your journey will not be perfect.
It's not an all or nothing zero sum game.
There will be days where old patterns are gonna resurface and
doubts are gonna creep back in.
But hopefully you now have something very powerful that can't be taken away.
And that's awareness.
That's the recognition that your reactions make sense in context.
That they don't define your character, and that a different way
of being is absolutely possible.
And it's not because you suppress your humanity, but it's because
you start to fully reclaim it.
And so your road ahead is not about becoming somebody new, it's
about returning to who you've always been beneath the layers of
your adaptation and your survival.
Because that person who cares deeply, loves, genuinely, and deserves
relationships that reflect , rather than distort your true nature.
That's the person that's underneath.
That's the person that you were hoping to unlock in your relationship
where we can learn about each other through the relationship.
Not having somebody else project all their crap over onto you and say, Hey,
you take care of this so I'll feel better.
So that journey starts with a single profound recognition.
You are not what happened to you, nor are you, your responses to what happened.
You are the consciousness witnessing it all capable of growth.
You're worthy of compassion.
Uh, you're deserving of relationships that honor rather than exploit your
capacity for kindness and love.
That next chapter of the story, I think begins now.
And this time you get to write it.
Now you know better.
So now it is time to lovingly do better.
, , thanks for listening and I will see you next time on Waking Up the Narcissism.