WEBVTT

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Music.

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Hey, everybody, welcome to a Virtual Couch Network Presents episode.

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So today we are going to explore the world of the highly sensitive person,

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or am I talking about somebody who's on the autism spectrum?

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Spoiler alert, I'm not, but thanks to a video that, for lack of a better word,

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went viral a couple of weeks ago, it's clear that there are a lot of people

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who identified with and felt seen by and understood by the information that

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they learned about highly sensitive people.

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And this was just in the span of a one-minute reel. We're talking over 2.2 million

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views of The Real on Instagram and 1.8 million views of The Real on TikTok and

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529 views of the exact same video on YouTube Shorts.

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But I'm not bitter about that. Maybe that's an episode for another day. But back to the story.

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So for those who really enjoy data or behind the scenes stuff, this is for you.

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Because I personally love when podcasters or back in my day,

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when people on the radio share the insider info of how many listeners or how

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many viewers, or when they would just share anything that I had no idea about

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that was going on behind the scenes.

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On TikTok, at the time of this recording, which is early morning, Monday, February 10th,

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this particular reel on highly sensitive people has 1,758,447 views with 182,000

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likes and 1,352 comments, 20,000 shares and 38,000 bookmarks.

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And on Instagram, this reel on

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highly sensitive people at the time of the recording had 2,182,337 views.

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And it also had 129,131 likes, 41,401 saves, and 40,616 shares.

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And I honest to goodness thank every single one of you who watched and liked and saved or shared it.

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And it also has 708 comments. While the majority are from people that do feel

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seen and understood, a number of them simply just say things like.

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What you're talking about is autism. Let's just move on. Or when are people

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going to recognize that this is just presenting autism?

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And as I was literally going to record, and I wanted to gather the latest stats

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for what I just shared with you, there was even a comment from somebody who

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was saying that apparently I have a problem with ADHD and autism,

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which is, well, it's adorable.

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Because, and I know that most people who are finding me from the real haven't

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listened to the 600 plus podcasts, or maybe the hundreds of hours of live content

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to know that I am a card carrying, riddle in taking.

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ADHD is my superpower. Diagnosed late in life. Thank goodness.

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Can I get a hallelujah and an amen?

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And when I had autism expert Jodi Carlton on my Waking Up the Narcissism podcast

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not too long ago to talk about the similarities in autism and narcissism and

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how they present in relationships, she mentioned that some consider ADHD to

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be on the autism spectrum.

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And I said right in that moment that if that is the case, sign me up,

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because why on earth would I want anything other than as much information as

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I can gather to help me understand myself better?

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Because this is most likely the first and only time that I'm inhabiting space

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on this amazing, wonderful planet we call Earth, and I want to learn it all.

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I want to experience it all.

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And speaking of experiences, hopefully this is the only time that you can see this,

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but if you tune into the YouTube channel or hopefully watch some clips from this episode,

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you will see a butterfly bandage that is

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holding my upper right cheek together thanks to a

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run-in unfortunately literally with a wall in

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a darkened movie theater yesterday i had my bell rung much

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to the laughter and enjoyment of my wife and daughter mackie who watched the

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whole thing it was all funny it was fun and laughs until wendy then asked me

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what's on your cheek and uh i did in a movie theater a classic movie line or

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a classic movie move where i reached up and all of a sudden my hand was covered

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in a lot of blood, but don't worry. I stayed.

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I was very brave. I watched the entire movie and I was still able to enjoy an

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insane amount of movie theater popcorn. But back to my point.

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So to those people who engaged in what I would call drive-by commenting,

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I did adopt a bit of a copy and paste response, which is what led to today's episode.

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I would highly encourage you to listen until the end because I have more data

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and examples than I ever would have imagined to share with you today.

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You'll definitely understand more than you ever could have dreamed about highly

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sensitive people, HSP, and people who have been diagnosed on the autism spectrum

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or ASD, autism spectrum disorder.

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And then we'll have a guest appearance by our good friend NPD,

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as in narcissistic personality disorder.

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But here's what I wrote to those who quickly dismissed those who were clearly feeling seen.

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I said, it's just far too easy for somebody to simply say HSP and ASD are one in the same.

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So here's what I'll share to every comment that says they are.

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I appreciate you taking the time to watch this reel and comment.

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I have an episode coming out later this week, which is today.

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There are so many differences, but many people who perhaps aren't highly sensitive

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or HSP can easily put them in the same bucket and then move on.

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And it's definitely easier to do that than to try and understand the differences,

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to lean into what someone doesn't know that they don't know. So stay tuned.

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We'll find out that there are overlapping traits, and that's wonderful.

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None of the content that I create is ever meant to be from a place of judgment,

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but more from a place of awareness. I'm a huge, huge fan of learning what we

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don't know that we didn't even know because that's the way we grow.

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And one of the strongest signs of emotional immaturity is isolating,

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turning more inward and just living in this confirmation biased,

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I know everything bubble that then is just easily able to dismiss people who

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have different viewpoints than them.

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But we're the only versions of us walking around the face of the earth,

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you, me, even the people that are doing the drive-by comments.

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And so they know what it feels like to be them.

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So it takes a lot of work to step outside of your own ego, your own sense of

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self, and truly try to understand what someone else's experience is.

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And when you can at least give that a good attempt, often you will learn something

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about that person and you might even learn something about yourself as well.

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So with that said, let's get to today's show. And actually, of course,

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before we do that, please follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch,

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tiktok at virtual couch, all one word.

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And even if half of the 2 million of you who watch the reel on Instagram could

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just go click a little subscribe button, give me some love on YouTube.

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Links will be in the show notes. That would be mighty appreciated.

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And then make sure to look for the live question and answers typically on Sunday

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evenings on Instagram and TikTok.

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We did one last night with my daughter, Mackie. My daughter,

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Sydney was behind the scenes and definitely commenting as well and moderating the comments.

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We had so many questions, so many comments on both Instagram and TikTok,

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but we spent a lot of time in the world of emotional immaturity.

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We did touch on some HSP content as well, but emotional immaturity in relationships,

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there is so much to be learned there.

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The replay of that live last night will be on YouTube in the next couple of days. So look for that.

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And you can also send me your questions ahead of time via the contact form on

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my website at TonyOverbay.com.

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While you're there, I signed up for the newsletter. Okay, let's do this.

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So it's story time. And there's a lot of data that you can mine from this story.

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And it's based loosely on a real story that was brought into my office.

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So if you can picture this, let's say it's a Wednesday afternoon and it's a

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busy marketing agency and you've got Sarah and Michael, they're standing in the break room.

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They're having what started out is what looked like a very quick conversation

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about an upcoming project.

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Now, Sarah has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder,

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or ASD, and she's very aware of it, but other than listening to a podcast or

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two on occasion, she doesn't necessarily do a lot of work on herself about her autism. No judgment.

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Facts, as the kids say. Now, on that note, the prevalence of ASD has changed

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dramatically over the past couple of decades.

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According to the CDC data, what was once identified in about 1 in 150 children

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in the year 2000 has steadily increased to about 1 in 36 people today.

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And that significant shift isn't necessarily just because more people are developing

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autism, but it's more about the move to a broader diagnostic criteria,

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better recognition of symptoms, and an increased awareness of it,

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that people are willing to talk about their own mental health challenges.

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And then also it comes with an increased access to diagnostic services,

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especially for groups that were maybe historically overlooked, like girls and adults.

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So on this particular afternoon, she was excited to share her insights about

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the research that she had been doing now. Let's talk about Michael.

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Michael identifies as a highly sensitive person, or HSP, which turns out to

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be way more common than most people think.

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Back in the 1990s, Elaine Aron and some additional researchers first started

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looking into this trait seriously and found something very fascinating,

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that about 15% to 20% of people are just wired to experience the world more intensely.

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And what's fascinating is that it's not just in humans.

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Scientists have spotted the same trait in all sorts of species,

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from dogs to fish, birds.

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I even read, I think, fruit flies, which that would be adorable to just have

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the most sensitive little fruit fly hanging around.

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So what this suggests is it's actually a natural and a valuable variation that's

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been preserved throughout evolution.

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So being highly sensitive isn't a disorder or something that needs fixing.

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It just means that Michael's brain processes things more deeply,

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feeling both the good and the challenging stuff more intensely than others might.

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It's kind of like he's got a more finely tuned antenna for picking up on everything

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from physical sensations to just emotional undercurrents in the room or vibes or energy.

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And on this particular afternoon with Sarah, Michael's overly aware of both

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the ticking clock, the subtle shifts in energy around the two of them,

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as well as others who are walking by their facial expressions,

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wondering what they might be thinking.

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At one point, he sees one coworker look at Sarah and then look over at Michael

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and then look over at the office gossip, Jane. And Michael immediately makes a mental note.

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Okay, Jane, no doubt is going to be starting rumors that Sarah has a thing for Michael.

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And Michael also knows that there's a staff meeting coming up in just a little bit.

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And he's aware that his boss typically engages in what he calls MBWA,

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or management by walking around prior to a big meeting.

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And actually, if Michael is being completely honest, which here's the part based

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on a true story, he knows that his boss is actually doing said MBWA,

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management by walking around, on his way to take a BM prior to the meeting.

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And if the boss sees them, he knows that the boss will assume that Michael's

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wasting time because Michael still finds himself reeling from an unflattering

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review that he and his marketing team had from that very boss years ago during

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a particularly bad time in the economy.

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And all of this is while Sarah continues to talk at Michael while they're in the break room.

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So the conversation has been going on for 15 minutes, which is about 14 minutes

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longer than Michael would like.

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When Michael notices another colleague, Elena, glancing at her watch as she walks past.

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So again, Michael can sense the afternoon meetings are about to begin.

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He starts to feel this building tension in the office as others are hurrying

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to wrap up their lunch breaks.

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And then Michael shifts his weight slightly, kind of takes a small step back and gently says.

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I should probably let you get back to work. And it's in this moment that two

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very different experiences are unfolding.

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Michael can feel the slight strain in his voice as he tries to end the conversation politely.

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And he notices how Sarah is still leaning forward slightly, and her enthusiasm is unchanged.

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And he can sense that she has not picked up on his cues.

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His heightened sensitivity allows him to feel the mild anxiety that's building

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in him and in the situation in general, as he realizes this exit from talking

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to Sarah is probably not going to be as smooth as he had hoped.

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Now, Sarah, she's deeply engaged and still explaining her research findings.

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And she processes Michael's words at face value.

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So remember, Michael said, oh, I probably ought to let you get back to work.

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So Sarah hears that and then says, oh, I don't actually need to get back to

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work right now because Sarah's team is not part of this meeting.

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So she is happy to stay engaged and continue to talk about this project.

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And then continuing on her train of thought, Sarah said, you know,

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I haven't even told you about the coolest part of this whole thing.

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This data that I found that was completely by surprise.

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And she's genuinely enjoying sharing her insights. She's no reason to stop.

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After all, Michael didn't say he needed to leave.

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He just said that he thought she might need to get back to work.

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So more minutes tick by, and Michael becomes increasingly aware of the growing disconnect.

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And he notices the tension in his shoulders, and he picks up on the quickening

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footsteps in the hallway. And he can sense the slight edge of frustration in his own breathing.

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Meanwhile, Sarah continues sharing her thoughts, completely missing all of these

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subtle signs of Michael's discomfort, his slight step backward,

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his crossed arms, his shorter responses, his looking away from her.

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As a matter of fact, Michael notices that he's almost moved back entirely against

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the break room counter, and Sarah has matched him step for step,

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becoming closer and closer as they talk, making things even more awkward for him.

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So this single interaction, I think, perfectly illustrates how different social

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cues are experienced and processed by people with autism, ASD,

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versus highly sensitive people, HSP.

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And while both Sarah and Michael are intelligent, caring individuals,

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they're essentially speaking different social languages.

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Michael is reading a complex web of nonverbal cues like a finely tuned instrument,

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while Sarah is focusing on the literal meaning of the words that they're exchanging.

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And it's a seemingly simple interaction, an attempt to end a conversation,

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that demonstrates why it's, I think, crucial to understand these differences.

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And if you are a HSP, to accept them.

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And then once you accept them, what do you do with them? And if you're someone

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who has ASD, then are you aware of these things?

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And I'll talk more about this later because I've worked with a number of people

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who have been the Sarahs who have come in and said, okay, there are things that

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I must not know that I don't know.

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And it's not about one being right and one being wrong. It's about recognizing

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that our brains can process social information in fundamentally different ways.

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That's absolutely okay.

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What I didn't mention, and maybe this is just simply so I can also run this

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one on my Waking Up the Narcissism podcast, of course.

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Actually, as I introduced this emotionally immature and narcissistic character

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that is very real, it's actually because so many people in relationships with

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narcissistic or emotionally immature people are the highly sensitive people.

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And I'm sure we'll talk about that later in this episode as well.

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So what I did not share is that right in the middle of this delicate social

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dance between Sarah and Michael, their self-appointed top sales guy,

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David, sweeps into the break room with his signature, I am the most important person here, energy.

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He's carrying his perpetually empty coffee mug, the one that says world's best

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dad, which is written in gold letters, which he basically made his wife buy for him.

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And without missing a beat, he inserts himself into their conversation by loudly

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declaring, oh, disgusting work, are you?

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Reminds me of how I single-handedly saved that Johnson account back in 2019,

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right before the pandemic, basically saved the company. Did I ever tell you guys about that?

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And actually, Sarah, your research approach reminds me of myself when I was

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starting out, though, of course, by the time that I was your age,

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I was already managing three departments.

00:15:30.055 --> 00:15:32.875
And he proceeds to then lean against the counter in what he clearly believes

00:15:32.875 --> 00:15:36.015
is a very, very charismatic pose, waiting for the validation,

00:15:36.175 --> 00:15:38.775
for people to just swoon over everything that he's talking about.

00:15:38.835 --> 00:15:42.355
But he's completely oblivious to the fact that Michael was desperately trying

00:15:42.355 --> 00:15:43.955
to escape Sarah and get to his meeting.

00:15:44.075 --> 00:15:47.755
And Sarah was in the middle of explaining her actual literal research findings.

00:15:48.175 --> 00:15:51.535
But David continues, gesturing dramatically with his coffee mug.

00:15:51.715 --> 00:15:53.535
You know, I was just talking to Steve.

00:15:54.195 --> 00:15:58.015
Dramatic pause. You guys know Steve, right? Okay, forgive my rudeness,

00:15:58.135 --> 00:16:01.395
Steve Thompson, founder, CEO of the company. I think you guys call him Mr. Thompson.

00:16:02.075 --> 00:16:04.575
I mean, Steve and I are on a very first name basis, but naturally,

00:16:04.755 --> 00:16:08.135
I was telling him that my leadership style really, I think is what is driving

00:16:08.135 --> 00:16:09.335
the innovation here. And he agreed.

00:16:09.635 --> 00:16:13.555
In fact, just this morning, I was thinking about your guys' little project while

00:16:13.555 --> 00:16:16.115
doing my morning meditation in my reserved parking spot.

00:16:17.037 --> 00:16:21.717
So ironically, the introduction of David adds a completely different type of

00:16:21.717 --> 00:16:24.977
misreading of all social cues in his very own unique way.

00:16:25.137 --> 00:16:30.277
Not because he's highly sensitive or autistic, but simply because he's so self-absorbed

00:16:30.277 --> 00:16:31.977
that he can't notice or care about them.

00:16:32.277 --> 00:16:36.197
And that is the siren song of the emotionally immature or the person on the

00:16:36.197 --> 00:16:37.077
narcissistic spectrum.

00:16:37.637 --> 00:16:40.777
But his presence creates a perfect storm of social complexity.

00:16:40.937 --> 00:16:44.817
You've got Michael, the HSP, now picking up on everybody's discomfort, feels trapped.

00:16:45.397 --> 00:16:49.777
Sarah, with autism, is trying to process why did the conversation suddenly shift

00:16:49.777 --> 00:16:51.897
to David's achievements? Because I was still in the middle of something.

00:16:52.077 --> 00:16:58.117
And David remains blissfully unaware of anything beyond his own internal monologue.

00:16:58.397 --> 00:17:03.477
Let's now transition over into what is HSP? What is ASD?

00:17:03.817 --> 00:17:08.717
And how are they different? How are they similar? And what's the challenge when

00:17:08.717 --> 00:17:12.577
they are interacting with people who don't understand what either of them are?

00:17:13.017 --> 00:17:15.897
So let me start by just clearing up a very fundamental misconception that I

00:17:15.897 --> 00:17:18.517
think has been floating around, especially in the social media comments again

00:17:18.517 --> 00:17:22.617
on these posts, that while HSP and ASD might look similar on the surface,

00:17:22.877 --> 00:17:25.897
particularly when it comes to how people process sensory information,

00:17:26.137 --> 00:17:28.077
they're actually quite distinct from each other.

00:17:28.557 --> 00:17:32.277
And again, that comes with no judgment. And there will be people,

00:17:32.437 --> 00:17:35.697
because both are a spectrum, that have some crossover.

00:17:36.097 --> 00:17:38.537
But you can kind of think of it like this, that just because two people might

00:17:38.537 --> 00:17:42.557
react strongly to bright lights or loud noises doesn't mean they're experiencing

00:17:42.557 --> 00:17:44.397
the same underlying condition.

00:17:45.157 --> 00:17:48.037
So if we go back to the beginning of HSP, Dr.

00:17:48.197 --> 00:17:51.457
Elaine Aron, who first began researching high sensitivity back in 1991,

00:17:51.937 --> 00:17:56.837
or the fancier name, sensory processing sensitivity, discovered something so

00:17:56.837 --> 00:18:00.557
fascinating that she found that being highly sensitive isn't a disorder at all.

00:18:00.737 --> 00:18:04.697
And that's because it's a natural trait that shows up in about 15 to 20% of the population.

00:18:04.977 --> 00:18:08.717
And what's so fascinating, as I mentioned earlier, this trait appears in over

00:18:08.717 --> 00:18:10.177
100 different species throughout nature.

00:18:11.284 --> 00:18:15.144
So this widespread presence suggests that being highly sensitive actually serves

00:18:15.144 --> 00:18:17.464
a very important evolutionary purpose.

00:18:18.024 --> 00:18:22.544
So for those who identify as highly sensitive, and this was definitely a theme

00:18:22.544 --> 00:18:26.424
in the comments of the videos, it may not actually feel like much of an advantage

00:18:26.424 --> 00:18:28.344
at times when you are completely overwhelmed.

00:18:28.724 --> 00:18:31.944
Especially when you feel stuck, when you feel so overwhelmed and you can't escape

00:18:31.944 --> 00:18:35.604
to maybe a dark room or somewhere where you can calm your central nervous system.

00:18:35.904 --> 00:18:40.144
So I just want to spend a few minutes talking about the evolutionary purpose of HSP.

00:18:40.144 --> 00:18:44.224
Because I think that this might give you, the HSP, the highly sensitive person,

00:18:44.484 --> 00:18:48.944
an understanding that your highly sensitive traits,

00:18:49.264 --> 00:18:56.544
the way that you feel and feel big and sense things that others may not, it truly can be a gift.

00:18:57.044 --> 00:19:00.644
So when we say that a trait serves an evolutionary purpose, what we mean is

00:19:00.644 --> 00:19:04.924
it provides some survival advantage to help their ancestors thrive and pass on their genes.

00:19:04.964 --> 00:19:09.344
Because if it wasn't something that was beneficial, then it would not have continued

00:19:09.344 --> 00:19:11.264
to be part of the evolutionary process.

00:19:11.584 --> 00:19:15.124
So if you look at the case of high sensitivity, I think that having some members

00:19:15.124 --> 00:19:18.524
of the population who are more attuned to subtle changes in the environment

00:19:18.524 --> 00:19:20.024
can benefit the entire group.

00:19:20.464 --> 00:19:24.564
Because you can think of it like having natural scouts or early warning systems

00:19:24.564 --> 00:19:25.744
within a population of people.

00:19:26.424 --> 00:19:30.664
HSPs tend to notice subtle changes. We're talking shifts in weather patterns,

00:19:30.964 --> 00:19:33.844
potential dangers, or social dynamics before others do.

00:19:34.104 --> 00:19:39.284
This hypervigilance when you see someone walk in the room and you can sense

00:19:39.284 --> 00:19:43.464
that that person maybe is having a problem with one of the other people in the room.

00:19:43.884 --> 00:19:47.944
Because in ancient times, this heightened awareness could help communities prepare

00:19:47.944 --> 00:19:51.784
for threats or opportunities that others might have missed until it was too late.

00:19:52.364 --> 00:19:56.084
So for example, an HSP might notice subtle changes in animal behavior suggesting

00:19:56.084 --> 00:19:59.544
an approaching storm, or they might pick up on tension in a neighboring group

00:19:59.544 --> 00:20:00.764
before it erupts into conflict.

00:20:01.244 --> 00:20:04.624
And this deeper processing of environmental cues could give their group time

00:20:04.624 --> 00:20:08.584
to prepare or adapt, increasing everybody's chances of survival.

00:20:08.984 --> 00:20:13.184
So the fact that we see this trade across species is what reinforces this theory

00:20:13.184 --> 00:20:14.724
that it is there for a reason.

00:20:15.124 --> 00:20:18.624
Consider wolves. Researchers have found that within wolf packs,

00:20:18.884 --> 00:20:21.544
some members show higher sensitivity to environmental changes.

00:20:21.784 --> 00:20:25.364
And these more sensitive wolves might be the first to notice approaching danger

00:20:25.364 --> 00:20:27.364
or identify new hunting opportunities.

00:20:27.644 --> 00:20:31.004
And they also might be the ones that don't enjoy ghost stories by the fire at

00:20:31.004 --> 00:20:35.204
night. But regardless, it's a trait that is there for survival.

00:20:35.884 --> 00:20:40.124
Eventually, those highly sensitive people become the shaman,

00:20:40.324 --> 00:20:44.544
the medicine people, the people that are the matchmakers where there are arranged marriages.

00:20:44.804 --> 00:20:46.644
It is a gift when it is nurtured.

00:20:48.005 --> 00:20:51.365
I go back to the numbers. Interestingly, the percentage of HSPs in populations,

00:20:51.645 --> 00:20:57.265
15 to 20%, if you're looking at it from an evolutionary biological perspective, seems to be optimal.

00:20:57.745 --> 00:21:02.305
Because if everybody was highly sensitive, then a group might be too cautious

00:21:02.305 --> 00:21:03.845
and miss out on opportunities.

00:21:04.085 --> 00:21:08.405
If no one were sensitive, the group might miss important warning signs and be

00:21:08.405 --> 00:21:09.905
wiped out and cease to exist.

00:21:10.305 --> 00:21:15.045
And this balance suggests what evolutionary biologists call differential susceptibility,

00:21:15.345 --> 00:21:19.105
different traits within a population that work together for the group's overall success.

00:21:19.385 --> 00:21:23.385
There will be people that will be more bold. There will be people that will

00:21:23.385 --> 00:21:26.925
be stronger, that will be able to endure, be able to run faster.

00:21:27.205 --> 00:21:32.705
There will be people that will have a keen brain for engineering and being able to create things.

00:21:32.945 --> 00:21:36.005
And there will be those that are highly sensitive that will be able to bring

00:21:36.005 --> 00:21:38.865
different things to the table within the group or the community.

00:21:39.225 --> 00:21:43.245
So let me give you some examples of traits or characteristics of the highly sensitive person.

00:21:43.505 --> 00:21:48.285
And for you non-HSPs, please hang tight because we're about to talk about what

00:21:48.285 --> 00:21:50.545
happens when you enter the picture.

00:21:50.705 --> 00:21:55.805
And I think it's so helpful as well to try and just step out of your own ego,

00:21:56.105 --> 00:22:00.925
non-HSPs, and think about the people in your life. If there are people that

00:22:00.925 --> 00:22:05.065
you have viewed as sensitive, people that you've told, don't worry about it, knock it off.

00:22:05.125 --> 00:22:08.525
It's not a big deal because I think this will speak more to what their experience is.

00:22:09.085 --> 00:22:14.305
So I went through Elaine Aron's self-test for HSPs, which you can find on hsperson.com.

00:22:14.725 --> 00:22:18.645
And I looked at all the questions and I was able to come up with five key indicators

00:22:18.645 --> 00:22:22.065
to watch for when you're trying to see if you are a highly sensitive person.

00:22:22.365 --> 00:22:25.385
So for somebody that is wondering if they might be highly sensitive,

00:22:25.525 --> 00:22:29.705
I recommend going and taking Elaine Aron's HSP test online.

00:22:30.125 --> 00:22:33.645
But this will just give you a better idea because you might just want to reflect

00:22:33.645 --> 00:22:34.745
on these key indicators.

00:22:34.985 --> 00:22:38.745
Do you need more time than others to process experiences and to make decisions.

00:22:39.125 --> 00:22:42.525
Are you particularly aware of subtle changes in your environment?

00:22:44.287 --> 00:22:49.247
Do you feel emotions, both your own and others, more intensely than most people around you seem to?

00:22:49.767 --> 00:22:52.847
And do you find yourself easily overwhelmed by sensory input?

00:22:53.007 --> 00:22:55.687
And it could be lights, it could be sounds, it could be textures,

00:22:56.087 --> 00:22:59.347
it could be anything that involves that sensory input.

00:22:59.907 --> 00:23:03.527
And do you have a rich inner life and you tend to think deeply about things?

00:23:04.107 --> 00:23:07.407
So let me walk you through how each one of these key indicators of high sensitivity

00:23:07.407 --> 00:23:08.687
might show up in everyday life.

00:23:08.847 --> 00:23:12.487
So that first one, needing more time to process experiences and make decisions.

00:23:12.487 --> 00:23:15.547
So imagine you're at a restaurant with friends, and while others can quickly

00:23:15.547 --> 00:23:19.267
scan the menu and decide, you find yourself just carefully considering each

00:23:19.267 --> 00:23:22.867
option over and over, thinking about your past experiences with similar dishes,

00:23:23.407 --> 00:23:27.547
contemplating how hungry you are, weighing a variety of factors like texture,

00:23:27.787 --> 00:23:31.487
flavor combinations, and your friends most likely tease you about being indecisive.

00:23:32.107 --> 00:23:34.647
But you're actually engaging in deeper processing.

00:23:35.367 --> 00:23:38.767
This same pattern might appear when shopping for major purchases where you research

00:23:38.767 --> 00:23:42.007
extensively and you consider multiple angles before making a choice,

00:23:42.187 --> 00:23:45.247
or maybe in meetings at work where you prefer to think through your response

00:23:45.247 --> 00:23:48.307
before speaking rather than immediately jumping into discussions.

00:23:48.847 --> 00:23:53.747
And as a card-carrying member again of the ADHD fan club, I know I tend to be

00:23:53.747 --> 00:23:58.107
more impulsive because in my mind, I can make a decision and then there are

00:23:58.107 --> 00:23:59.587
plenty of decisions to be made afterward.

00:24:00.127 --> 00:24:03.647
Now, I do like to do a fair amount of research, but sometimes that is just this

00:24:03.647 --> 00:24:05.627
desire for certainty that I have.

00:24:05.827 --> 00:24:10.027
But ultimately, I would consider myself far more impulsive than somebody who is highly sensitive.

00:24:10.187 --> 00:24:13.867
So let's talk about that second key indicator, awareness of subtle environmental changes.

00:24:14.427 --> 00:24:18.027
You most likely are the first person to notice when somebody has rearranged

00:24:18.027 --> 00:24:20.487
the furniture slightly or changed their hairstyle.

00:24:20.807 --> 00:24:26.327
I think about this so often of where I would get that wrong if I would come

00:24:26.327 --> 00:24:28.927
home and my wife would maybe say, notice anything different?

00:24:29.147 --> 00:24:31.127
And I am. I'm looking around the room. I'm looking at her.

00:24:32.278 --> 00:24:35.798
And at work, you might pick up on subtle tension between co-workers before conflicts

00:24:35.798 --> 00:24:37.618
become obvious to other people.

00:24:38.358 --> 00:24:41.918
You might also notice small changes in your partner's behavior that signal that

00:24:41.918 --> 00:24:43.878
they're stressed even before they realize it themselves.

00:24:44.838 --> 00:24:48.178
Think of somebody who immediately notices when the heating system kicks on in

00:24:48.178 --> 00:24:51.078
a building or who can tell that it's about to rain because they notice subtle

00:24:51.078 --> 00:24:53.958
changes in air pressure or again, even animal behavior.

00:24:54.898 --> 00:24:58.738
The third indicator, feeling emotions more intensely.

00:24:59.278 --> 00:25:03.878
This is the one that I realized the more I learned about highly sensitive people,

00:25:04.078 --> 00:25:09.418
that I know that while I know how I feel about things, I'm very certain that

00:25:09.418 --> 00:25:13.238
I don't feel as deeply as my wife or a couple of my daughters.

00:25:14.698 --> 00:25:18.518
So feeling emotions more intensely. This might manifest as crying easily during

00:25:18.518 --> 00:25:22.078
movies that others find only mildly touching or feeling physically drained after

00:25:22.078 --> 00:25:24.418
spending time with somebody who's going through a difficult period.

00:25:24.718 --> 00:25:28.018
And you might find yourself deeply affected by news stories that others just

00:25:28.018 --> 00:25:31.878
scroll past or you might need time to decompress after emotional conversations.

00:25:32.258 --> 00:25:35.498
At work, if you receive criticism, even if it's constructive,

00:25:35.798 --> 00:25:39.618
it might require some private time to process before you can respond effectively.

00:25:39.938 --> 00:25:44.098
And you might also find yourself feeling genuinely elated by very small positive

00:25:44.098 --> 00:25:48.478
experiences that other people barely notice, like a beautiful sunset or a kind

00:25:48.478 --> 00:25:49.498
gesture from a stranger.

00:25:49.718 --> 00:25:53.078
I think of how many times that my wife would look out the window and say,

00:25:53.138 --> 00:25:54.678
look at that sunset, and I did.

00:25:55.698 --> 00:26:00.638
Okay, now let's move on, right? and not being able to really just sit and appreciate

00:26:00.638 --> 00:26:03.718
that and understand what that must feel like for her versus me.

00:26:04.838 --> 00:26:08.598
Here's the interesting one, the fourth one, easily overwhelmed by sensory input.

00:26:08.898 --> 00:26:12.738
So in very practical terms, I think this might look like needing to leave a

00:26:12.738 --> 00:26:16.178
grocery store sooner than others because the fluorescent lights are just too

00:26:16.178 --> 00:26:18.418
bright or the background music is just driving you crazy.

00:26:18.998 --> 00:26:22.298
Announcements, multiple conversations become overwhelming. You might have strong

00:26:22.298 --> 00:26:27.298
preferences about clothing textures, removing tags or avoiding certain fabrics entirely.

00:26:27.678 --> 00:26:30.698
And in open office spaces, you might struggle to concentrate because you're

00:26:30.698 --> 00:26:34.378
aware of every conversation and keyboard click and movement around you.

00:26:34.838 --> 00:26:37.938
And you might also find that you need to retreat to a quiet space after social

00:26:37.938 --> 00:26:39.818
gatherings that others might find energizing.

00:26:40.898 --> 00:26:44.538
One more, having a rich and inner life and thinking deeply.

00:26:44.938 --> 00:26:49.078
This often shows up as the person who just ponders the deeper meaning behind everyday situations.

00:26:49.418 --> 00:26:52.978
For instance, a casual comment from a friend might lead you down a path of reflecting

00:26:52.978 --> 00:26:54.398
on the nature of the friendship itself.

00:26:54.718 --> 00:26:57.738
And you might find yourself lying awake at night thinking about conversations

00:26:57.738 --> 00:27:00.438
from earlier in the day and analyzing them from multiple angles.

00:27:00.918 --> 00:27:05.518
I know in talking to a lot of highly sensitive people, they don't want to say

00:27:05.518 --> 00:27:08.158
the wrong thing and they want somebody to truly understand them.

00:27:08.278 --> 00:27:12.958
So often they will try to explain things from every single vantage point, every angle.

00:27:13.178 --> 00:27:16.218
And the person that they're speaking with most likely has already said,

00:27:16.318 --> 00:27:17.498
no, I understand. I get it.

00:27:17.938 --> 00:27:20.878
But to the highly sensitive person, they're still just so worried about being

00:27:20.878 --> 00:27:22.478
misunderstood or misrepresented. Okay.

00:27:23.321 --> 00:27:26.561
At work, you might excel at projects that are requiring deep analysis,

00:27:26.561 --> 00:27:30.481
but struggle with rapid fire brainstorming sessions because you prefer to think

00:27:30.481 --> 00:27:33.921
things through and take your time before you make these big decisions.

00:27:34.201 --> 00:27:38.361
And you might also find yourself drawn at times to complex books or films or

00:27:38.361 --> 00:27:42.201
music that others find too heavy because you naturally seek depth in your experiences.

00:27:42.401 --> 00:27:44.541
But again, it can come with being overwhelmed.

00:27:45.161 --> 00:27:48.861
So the key thing, though, is to understand that these traits often interact with each other.

00:27:48.861 --> 00:27:52.941
For example, your deep processing and emotional sensitivity might combine to

00:27:52.941 --> 00:27:56.181
make you especially thoughtful in your relationships, while your environmental

00:27:56.181 --> 00:28:01.061
awareness and sensory sensitivity might make you particularly skilled at creating comfortable,

00:28:01.281 --> 00:28:04.661
harmonious spaces, wanting your home to be this oasis.

00:28:05.241 --> 00:28:09.061
And these aren't weaknesses to overcome, but they're aspects of your personality

00:28:09.061 --> 00:28:13.361
that can be both challenging and advantageous depending on the situation and

00:28:13.361 --> 00:28:14.521
how you learn to work with them.

00:28:14.741 --> 00:28:17.861
Because if you're a highly sensitive person and you're in a relationship with

00:28:17.861 --> 00:28:22.861
someone, let's say who has some real fun ADHD, then you might be in a world

00:28:22.861 --> 00:28:24.761
where you want more of the normal,

00:28:24.921 --> 00:28:28.181
and that person might live a little bit more in the world of chaos.

00:28:28.981 --> 00:28:32.341
So now, let's get back to where those characteristics can serve a purpose,

00:28:32.361 --> 00:28:37.301
and let's bring the non-HSPs back into the mix, and then we'll move into the world of autism.

00:28:37.441 --> 00:28:41.021
Back to how these indicators or these traits play out in modern contexts,

00:28:41.101 --> 00:28:45.261
these same characteristics, they continue to serve very valuable purposes because

00:28:45.261 --> 00:28:49.901
HSPs often excel at noticing subtle patterns in complex systems or anticipating

00:28:49.901 --> 00:28:51.921
potential problems before they develop,

00:28:52.281 --> 00:28:56.721
understanding the deeper emotional needs of others, or contributing really unique

00:28:56.721 --> 00:29:00.781
perspectives in problem-solving situations, and then bringing depth and nuance

00:29:00.781 --> 00:29:02.461
to very creative endeavors.

00:29:02.941 --> 00:29:06.881
So when you look back through this evolutionary lens, I think it helps us understand

00:29:06.881 --> 00:29:11.101
why high sensitivity isn't a disorder or a weakness, but it's a pretty vital

00:29:11.101 --> 00:29:15.141
variation in the whole human experience that has helped our species survive

00:29:15.141 --> 00:29:16.901
and thrive throughout history.

00:29:17.857 --> 00:29:21.337
But this dynamic between HSPs, and we'll just call them the non-HSPs,

00:29:21.557 --> 00:29:25.717
is a perfect example of what psychologists call an invisible disability.

00:29:25.997 --> 00:29:29.537
It's a phenomenon. But I think in this case, we're talking about more of a trait

00:29:29.537 --> 00:29:30.497
rather than a disability.

00:29:30.737 --> 00:29:35.037
Let me explain why this can create a very challenging situation, is a nice way to put it.

00:29:35.217 --> 00:29:38.697
Because when someone isn't highly sensitive, they experience the world through

00:29:38.697 --> 00:29:40.377
their own neurological settings.

00:29:40.897 --> 00:29:44.057
So their brain processes sensory and emotional information at what we might

00:29:44.057 --> 00:29:47.657
call, let's just say a standard level of intensity. We won't say normal.

00:29:48.117 --> 00:29:51.837
But for them, this is their normal. It's their only frame of reference.

00:29:52.017 --> 00:29:55.737
It's like somebody who's never worn glasses, trying to understand what does

00:29:55.737 --> 00:29:57.217
it look like to not have glasses.

00:29:57.437 --> 00:30:00.397
And as somebody who didn't need glasses till I was in my late 40s,

00:30:00.517 --> 00:30:04.077
I can feel this because I remember continually asking my wife,

00:30:04.197 --> 00:30:06.437
what does it look like? What do you see?

00:30:06.597 --> 00:30:10.517
And never really understanding what that would be like because I didn't know

00:30:10.517 --> 00:30:14.257
what it was like to need glasses. So going back to that, think about that.

00:30:14.257 --> 00:30:17.537
If you are someone who doesn't wear glasses, trying to understand what that

00:30:17.537 --> 00:30:19.797
would look like, you can imagine it might be blurry.

00:30:20.137 --> 00:30:23.477
But I will tell you as someone now who, when I take my glasses off,

00:30:23.677 --> 00:30:26.117
things are, they're continually blurry.

00:30:26.657 --> 00:30:29.677
It really is trying to understand what the world looks like to somebody who

00:30:29.677 --> 00:30:30.857
needs them, who needs the glasses.

00:30:31.397 --> 00:30:34.437
And I think this creates a fundamental disconnected understanding.

00:30:34.657 --> 00:30:38.677
So when an HSP expresses concern about something that seems minor to a non-HSP,

00:30:38.677 --> 00:30:44.017
the non-HSP makes what psychologists call a false consensus assumption because

00:30:44.017 --> 00:30:47.457
they believe that everybody processes experiences the same way that they do.

00:30:47.817 --> 00:30:50.977
So when they say things like, you're overreacting, or it's not that big of a

00:30:50.977 --> 00:30:54.897
deal, they genuinely believe that they're being helpful, operating from their

00:30:54.897 --> 00:30:57.857
own experiential framework. I know I've been guilty of that.

00:30:58.137 --> 00:31:01.157
Where you want to tell your family, hey guys, don't worry about this.

00:31:01.477 --> 00:31:05.137
Calm down. It's not a big deal. I literally just told them all their feelings are wrong.

00:31:06.173 --> 00:31:09.873
And I think the tragedy in this dynamic lies in its self-reinforcing nature,

00:31:09.873 --> 00:31:11.513
because here's how it typically plays out.

00:31:11.913 --> 00:31:16.293
The HSP experiences something intense, whether it's emotional tension in a room,

00:31:16.633 --> 00:31:20.973
overwhelming sensory input, or maybe a deep concern about just even a very subtle

00:31:20.973 --> 00:31:21.833
problem that they've noticed.

00:31:22.133 --> 00:31:26.873
They try to express it to the non-HSP, often the person that they're in a relationship

00:31:26.873 --> 00:31:30.153
with, and they're already feeling vulnerable because they've learned through

00:31:30.153 --> 00:31:34.713
experience that typically others don't always understand, or even want to take

00:31:34.713 --> 00:31:36.353
the time to try and understand.

00:31:36.933 --> 00:31:42.013
Then the non-HSP processing the same situation with far less intensity will

00:31:42.013 --> 00:31:46.133
dismiss or maybe minimize the HSP's experience with phrases like,

00:31:46.293 --> 00:31:50.613
well, you just need to toughen up or you're being too sensitive or calm down

00:31:50.613 --> 00:31:52.773
or don't worry about it or don't think that way.

00:31:53.813 --> 00:31:59.053
Then the HSP, who by nature processes emotions deeply, they absorb this dismissal.

00:31:59.173 --> 00:32:03.413
And I think it can be really difficult because they internalize or they metabolize

00:32:03.413 --> 00:32:09.993
not just the immediate rejection, but this deeper implication about their way of being in the world.

00:32:10.333 --> 00:32:14.393
So then to protect themselves emotionally, the HSP begins to withdraw.

00:32:14.653 --> 00:32:18.273
And over time, they share less and they start to make themselves small.

00:32:18.433 --> 00:32:20.433
And they often doubt their own perceptions.

00:32:21.413 --> 00:32:27.413
And then the non-HSP sees this withdrawal as improvement, confirmation that

00:32:27.413 --> 00:32:30.613
their approach worked, that it does work when I tell everybody,

00:32:30.613 --> 00:32:33.613
Don't worry about it or calm down because I'm not hearing about it as much.

00:32:33.833 --> 00:32:37.513
When in reality, they just witnessed somebody building emotional walls,

00:32:37.553 --> 00:32:40.513
watching their partner build the walls for self-protection.

00:32:41.633 --> 00:32:46.933
And this cycle creates this emotional invalidation, which can have long-lasting

00:32:46.933 --> 00:32:49.873
effects on HSPs and in the relationship.

00:32:50.293 --> 00:32:55.173
Because then the HSP often develops a form of this learned helplessness about

00:32:55.173 --> 00:32:56.253
sharing their experiences.

00:32:56.373 --> 00:33:00.533
And that can start to lead to isolation, self-doubt, a loss of self.

00:33:00.833 --> 00:33:06.033
So the cruel irony here is that the very depth of emotional processing that

00:33:06.033 --> 00:33:11.813
makes HSPs valuable in evolutionary terms, it becomes a source of vulnerability in these interactions.

00:33:12.593 --> 00:33:19.513
So the solution, though, is not for HSPs to toughen up, or even for non-HSPs to walk on eggshells.

00:33:19.933 --> 00:33:24.913
Instead, it requires understanding and validating different ways of experiencing the world.

00:33:25.133 --> 00:33:28.833
Just as we wouldn't tell somebody wearing glasses that they're trying too hard

00:33:28.833 --> 00:33:34.273
to see clearly, we shouldn't dismiss an HSP's naturally more intense processing of their environment.

00:33:34.273 --> 00:33:39.253
And I think this is why, hopefully episodes like today or reels that people

00:33:39.253 --> 00:33:43.253
can identify with, maybe for the first time, this is why education about high

00:33:43.253 --> 00:33:44.733
sensitivity I think is so crucial.

00:33:44.973 --> 00:33:50.133
Because it helps both HSPs and hopefully you non-HSPs, including myself,

00:33:50.713 --> 00:33:54.113
understand that there isn't just one right way to experience the world.

00:33:54.713 --> 00:33:59.013
Different neurological templates create different equally valid ways of processing reality.

00:33:59.013 --> 00:34:02.313
And I think it is so important to realize that no matter how certain you might

00:34:02.313 --> 00:34:05.813
think you are about what somebody else is thinking or feeling or why they're

00:34:05.813 --> 00:34:09.993
doing what they're doing, you cannot truly understand exactly what somebody

00:34:09.993 --> 00:34:13.933
else is going through ever, which is why it's so important to be curious.

00:34:14.193 --> 00:34:18.053
Write, write, be curious on your bathroom mirror, plaster it all over your wall,

00:34:18.193 --> 00:34:19.993
your desk, write it every day on your palm.

00:34:20.193 --> 00:34:23.713
Shout out to my old friend, Bruce Felt, who used to write down things literally

00:34:23.713 --> 00:34:25.933
on his palm when I was using a device at the time.

00:34:26.273 --> 00:34:29.393
If any of you remember these called a palm pilot. Maybe we need to get back

00:34:29.393 --> 00:34:31.693
to that type of high tech, writing it down on our palm.

00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:36.930
But it's okay not to know how somebody else feels or what they're thinking.

00:34:37.430 --> 00:34:41.350
We resist curiosity so often because I think we want the validation of somebody

00:34:41.350 --> 00:34:45.690
potentially saying, oh my gosh, you were right. I did need to just toughen up

00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:48.650
or I didn't even think about calming down.

00:34:48.870 --> 00:34:52.050
So thank you. You said words that do in fact make me feel so good.

00:34:52.990 --> 00:34:57.610
But another big reason that we like to tell people how they are feeling or what

00:34:57.610 --> 00:35:02.030
they are thinking is because if we need to ask them and they're thinking and

00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:06.210
feeling things that we didn't know, A, we often revert back to our emotionally

00:35:06.210 --> 00:35:07.930
immature, all or nothing, black or white thinking.

00:35:08.130 --> 00:35:10.950
That if that person now is thinking something that I didn't realize they were

00:35:10.950 --> 00:35:13.550
thinking, then I must be wrong and then they are right.

00:35:13.990 --> 00:35:16.870
And now all of a sudden, we've got this black or white, all or nothing thinking.

00:35:17.390 --> 00:35:20.890
Please scrub that from your mind right now. We're not talking about right and wrong.

00:35:21.030 --> 00:35:24.970
We're talking about two people's sharing of their experiences that are unique

00:35:24.970 --> 00:35:29.690
to them because they are the only version of them that have ever walked the face of the earth.

00:35:29.870 --> 00:35:34.450
Each one of us is an amazing combination of our nature and our nurture,

00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:38.530
our birth order, our DNA, our abandonment, our rejection, our hopes, our fears, our dreams.

00:35:38.890 --> 00:35:42.450
And so even when you look at twin studies and the same twins,

00:35:42.630 --> 00:35:48.110
the same people, these genetic similarities in their DNA witness the same thing,

00:35:48.370 --> 00:35:49.830
their output is different.

00:35:50.270 --> 00:35:52.850
So of course, our output is going to be different.

00:35:53.850 --> 00:35:58.710
There are so many variables to people. There are people in the world who love

00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:01.510
sardines. There are people who think that black licorice tastes good.

00:36:01.690 --> 00:36:03.830
There are people who don't like pineapple on their pizza.

00:36:22.450 --> 00:36:24.950
Let me just give you some facts that I think might blow your mind.

00:36:24.950 --> 00:36:30.250
Because people are so different. There are people in the world who love sardines.

00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:33.890
There are people who think that black licorice tastes good. There are people

00:36:33.890 --> 00:36:37.990
who don't like pineapple on their pizza. There are people who like blue cheese crumbles.

00:36:38.170 --> 00:36:41.410
There are people who enjoy swallowing oysters or eating snails or pate.

00:36:42.250 --> 00:36:46.550
There are people who enjoy haunted houses or who don't enjoy speaking to crowds

00:36:46.550 --> 00:36:47.730
or who don't like running.

00:36:48.170 --> 00:36:51.810
And so there you go. I think maybe you know me better now than ever before.

00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:55.910
But we are all unique in so many ways. So, of course, you aren't going to know

00:36:55.910 --> 00:36:58.890
exactly what somebody is thinking or feeling. So, ask them.

00:36:59.290 --> 00:37:02.870
And you're not wrong if you thought something else. And number two.

00:37:04.121 --> 00:37:06.381
If we have to ask somebody how they are feeling about something,

00:37:06.561 --> 00:37:10.121
we might find out that we could have even played a role in their discomfort

00:37:10.121 --> 00:37:13.681
or their dissatisfaction or their disappointment.

00:37:13.881 --> 00:37:18.281
And guess what? That too is absolutely okay because go back to point A,

00:37:18.681 --> 00:37:22.321
everybody is different and are allowed to think and feel differently.

00:37:22.601 --> 00:37:26.781
So for all you non-HSPs, and I consider myself somewhere on the spectrum of

00:37:26.781 --> 00:37:30.321
some increased sensitivity, but I know for a fact I'm not as highly sensitive

00:37:30.321 --> 00:37:33.241
as my wife or a couple of my daughters in particular.

00:37:33.661 --> 00:37:37.941
I've been married now for 34 years and I have to watch Animal Planet on my own.

00:37:38.281 --> 00:37:41.581
It's like I'm watching a dirty movie or like I'm exploring the dark corners

00:37:41.581 --> 00:37:46.141
of the internet when I get in my office and I pull up Earth at Night in Color on Apple TV.

00:37:46.721 --> 00:37:49.581
And you're welcome after you go check that out. What an incredible show.

00:37:49.841 --> 00:37:53.781
They use these phenomenal cameras to make night on the African tundra look like

00:37:53.781 --> 00:37:54.841
it is the middle of the day.

00:37:55.521 --> 00:37:59.001
And I want to show that. I show it to my two daughters, so I think they're more highly sensitive.

00:37:59.141 --> 00:38:03.001
And I'm showing them. and all of a sudden some cheetah takes down a wildebeest

00:38:03.001 --> 00:38:05.041
or something and we're turning the channel.

00:38:05.281 --> 00:38:08.721
And then it will be another 10 to 20 years before I will attempt that again.

00:38:09.361 --> 00:38:12.141
Neither of us are wrong. And it doesn't mean that somebody doesn't care about

00:38:12.141 --> 00:38:14.541
you if they don't want to watch what you want to watch or if they don't want

00:38:14.541 --> 00:38:19.901
to see beneath your band-aid at how you cut your cheek in half running into

00:38:19.901 --> 00:38:21.541
a wall at a movie theater.

00:38:21.781 --> 00:38:23.761
Although she kind of did enjoy seeing that.

00:38:24.681 --> 00:38:27.161
But when we talk about highly sensitive people, we're describing be individuals

00:38:27.161 --> 00:38:30.441
whose brains process information more deeply than others, and it's a gift to

00:38:30.441 --> 00:38:32.601
have a more sophisticated internal processing system.

00:38:33.001 --> 00:38:37.961
These people notice subtleties that others might not, and this can lead to feeling overwhelmed.

00:38:38.261 --> 00:38:42.001
But that's because an HSP literally is taking in more information from their

00:38:42.001 --> 00:38:43.761
environment than the average person.

00:38:44.201 --> 00:38:48.181
And before we move on to ASD, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, I think there's also

00:38:48.181 --> 00:38:50.541
a crucial point that I didn't understand for a long time.

00:38:50.681 --> 00:38:54.461
Dr. Aaron emphasizes the trait isn't a new discovery, it's just that it's been

00:38:54.461 --> 00:38:55.581
misunderstood for a long time.

00:38:55.721 --> 00:39:00.181
So, people often confuse highly sensitive people with being shy or with being introverted.

00:39:00.341 --> 00:39:04.261
But here's the part I never really understood, is about 30% of highly sensitive

00:39:04.261 --> 00:39:05.641
people are actually extroverts.

00:39:05.841 --> 00:39:11.721
The key difference is that as an HSP, they might put themselves out there,

00:39:11.721 --> 00:39:16.921
but even as they are extrovert, they still are observing and processing before acting.

00:39:17.321 --> 00:39:20.001
Again, regardless of whether they're introverted or extroverted.

00:39:20.201 --> 00:39:24.361
So now, And thanks for sticking with me. Let's explore autism spectrum disorder.

00:39:24.741 --> 00:39:28.561
And then we'll break down the key differences between these two very distinct

00:39:28.561 --> 00:39:29.921
ways of experiencing the world.

00:39:30.161 --> 00:39:32.481
Because I think when we can truly understand the differences,

00:39:32.481 --> 00:39:36.961
then we can better support and appreciate and love our HSPs and our individuals

00:39:36.961 --> 00:39:38.601
with ASD for exactly who they are.

00:39:38.761 --> 00:39:42.201
And a lot of you might learn something new about yourself.

00:39:42.701 --> 00:39:47.081
I am not an expert in autism spectrum disorder. So...

00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:49.780
Much of this information was gathered

00:39:49.780 --> 00:39:54.540
from the internet using as many evidence-based resources as I can.

00:39:54.740 --> 00:39:58.620
And also anecdotal data, because I've been a therapist now for over 20 years,

00:39:58.660 --> 00:40:02.580
and I have worked with very high functioning people with autism who come to

00:40:02.580 --> 00:40:04.260
my office saying, this is what I have.

00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:06.640
I don't know what I don't know and help me show up differently.

00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:11.880
Autism spectrum disorder or ASD is a neurodevelopmental condition that affects

00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.180
how a person perceives and interacts with the world around them.

00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:18.360
And as I discussed in the opening today, the CDC data shows that about one in

00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:22.620
36 people are diagnosed with ASD today, which is a significant increase from

00:40:22.620 --> 00:40:26.680
previous decades due to better recognition and then understanding of the condition.

00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:32.640
And the word spectrum, which is most often used in ASD, I think is crucial because

00:40:32.640 --> 00:40:35.700
it acknowledges that autism presents differently in each person.

00:40:35.860 --> 00:40:39.680
You can think of it like a mixing board in a recording studio where each person

00:40:39.680 --> 00:40:41.920
has these different settings for various characteristics.

00:40:42.040 --> 00:40:44.960
So some individuals might have more intense sensory experiences,

00:40:45.020 --> 00:40:49.280
while others might face greater challenges with social communication and social interaction.

00:40:49.540 --> 00:40:52.480
So here's where things get really interesting and where some of the confusion

00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.060
between HSP and ASD arises.

00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.780
That both groups might appear to react strongly to sensory input,

00:40:58.780 --> 00:41:02.060
but the underlying mechanisms are quite different because in HSP,

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.380
the brain is taking in and deeply processing all the information,

00:41:05.520 --> 00:41:07.780
including social and emotional cues,

00:41:08.200 --> 00:41:12.060
like having a very sophisticated filter that catches and then just analyzes everything.

00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:16.980
And in contrast, individuals with ASD often, again, we're leaving this open

00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:21.560
to the spectrum of their experiences, but often experience sensory input differently,

00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.460
not necessarily more deeply, but in a way that can be more difficult to integrate.

00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:29.500
So it's less about deep processing and maybe more about how the brain organizes

00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:31.380
and makes sense of the information that it receives.

00:41:31.480 --> 00:41:35.460
And then this can lead to sensory overload, but through a whole different mechanism

00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:36.740
than what HSPs experience.

00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:42.120
And another key difference lies in social interaction, because HSPs are often

00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:46.560
very highly attuned to others' emotional states, sometimes to an overwhelming degree.

00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:50.160
They might pick up on subtle mood changes in a room and process them deeply.

00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:54.420
People with ASD, on the other hand, might find it challenging to interpret social

00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:58.460
cues or understand unspoken social rules, not because they're not processing

00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:02.620
deeply, but because their brains are wired to perceive social information very differently.

00:42:03.160 --> 00:42:07.120
So you can think of it this way, that an HSP might walk into a room and immediately

00:42:07.120 --> 00:42:10.740
sense tension between two people, feeling overwhelmed by the emotional atmosphere.

00:42:10.740 --> 00:42:14.580
A person with ASD might walk into that same room and feel overwhelmed by the

00:42:14.580 --> 00:42:18.460
fluorescent lights, the texture of their clothing, or if there's loud music

00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:23.520
and a lot of people talking, or the challenge of navigating the social expectations of the situation.

00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.800
And I have a couple of guests coming on that I'll run this episode later this week.

00:42:28.553 --> 00:42:34.573
Who are talking about a program that they are involved in that helps young adults with autism.

00:42:35.173 --> 00:42:40.653
And they address this very specific part of ASD, where they talk about,

00:42:40.813 --> 00:42:44.033
here's the way that you can interact. And they teach those skills.

00:42:44.353 --> 00:42:48.913
And I think this distinction is crucial because it affects how we can best support each other.

00:42:49.053 --> 00:42:52.893
HSPs often benefit from the validation of their deep processing and their emotional

00:42:52.893 --> 00:42:57.633
experiences, along with learning strategies to manage overwhelming input while

00:42:57.633 --> 00:42:59.673
preserving their very valuable sensitivity.

00:43:00.173 --> 00:43:03.513
Or people with ASD might benefit more from support that can help them navigate

00:43:03.513 --> 00:43:08.053
sensory challenges and social situations in ways that work for their unique neurotype.

00:43:08.853 --> 00:43:12.253
And it's also fair to say that understanding these differences,

00:43:12.253 --> 00:43:17.833
it doesn't help us to know everything, but it helps us move away from the one-size-fits-all approach.

00:43:17.853 --> 00:43:21.113
Because when you recognize that HSP and ASD are distinct ways of experiencing

00:43:21.113 --> 00:43:25.313
the world, I think that you can better appreciate and support the very unique

00:43:25.313 --> 00:43:26.893
strengths and challenges of both groups.

00:43:27.033 --> 00:43:30.093
And I think that leads to a more effective strategy for helping people thrive

00:43:30.093 --> 00:43:32.773
in their own individual unique way.

00:43:33.253 --> 00:43:37.693
So let me go through a lot of examples. Most of them are based off of real life

00:43:37.693 --> 00:43:40.893
experiences, which is one of the reasons it took me so long to put this episode

00:43:40.893 --> 00:43:43.953
together because I reached out to a lot of my clients that I've worked with

00:43:43.953 --> 00:43:47.453
in the past and current, whether they are high functioning autistic,

00:43:48.113 --> 00:43:50.453
whether they are on the ASD spectrum

00:43:50.453 --> 00:43:55.133
or our HSP, or if they have family members and loved ones that are.

00:43:55.853 --> 00:44:00.193
So let's talk about nature of sensitivity. For the HSP, primarily it's emotional

00:44:00.193 --> 00:44:03.173
and sensory sensitivity with greater self-awareness.

00:44:03.293 --> 00:44:06.633
So they're more likely to notice subtle changes in the environment and emotional states.

00:44:06.793 --> 00:44:10.733
An HSP might feel overwhelmed at a concert, but they can regulate their response

00:44:10.733 --> 00:44:14.313
by taking breaks or they can use coping strategies.

00:44:14.873 --> 00:44:19.293
Someone with ASD may experience both over and under stimulation to sensory input.

00:44:19.293 --> 00:44:22.553
So their responses can be more intense and also less predictable.

00:44:22.913 --> 00:44:25.913
So the example there might be an autistic person might find certain textures

00:44:25.913 --> 00:44:30.553
completely intolerable or they might seek out intense sensory experiences.

00:44:30.853 --> 00:44:32.273
So let me just play out some scenarios.

00:44:32.733 --> 00:44:35.833
So scenario one, we're in a crowded shopping mall.

00:44:36.193 --> 00:44:40.513
The HSP's response, they initially notice the increasing tension in their body

00:44:40.513 --> 00:44:45.693
as they become aware of all the sensory inputs going on, but they can typically

00:44:45.693 --> 00:44:47.093
identify specific triggers.

00:44:47.333 --> 00:44:51.073
Maybe it's the perfume from the cosmetic store, overlapping conversations,

00:44:51.613 --> 00:44:54.393
bright fluorescent lights, the squeaking of shoes on the floor.

00:44:54.713 --> 00:44:58.693
And they might say to their companion, starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed.

00:44:58.913 --> 00:45:01.513
Can we find a quieter area or maybe just take a short break at a cafe?

00:45:02.213 --> 00:45:05.893
And they can usually continue shopping after taking a brief break and using

00:45:05.893 --> 00:45:09.493
coping strategies like deep breathing, coming back to the present moment.

00:45:10.423 --> 00:45:14.663
But they remain aware of their environment, but they can manage it with conscious effort.

00:45:15.043 --> 00:45:19.603
In that same crowded shopping mall, the ASD response might be different.

00:45:19.823 --> 00:45:23.183
It might look something like this, where they might experience a sudden and

00:45:23.183 --> 00:45:25.983
intense sensory overload without that gradual awareness.

00:45:26.243 --> 00:45:30.523
They might find it difficult to identify which specific sensory input is causing

00:45:30.523 --> 00:45:33.403
distress, but there are just far too many things happening.

00:45:34.003 --> 00:45:37.163
And they could have a more immediate, and I think that's one of the keys,

00:45:37.343 --> 00:45:41.323
and a more intense reaction like needing to leave immediately are sometimes

00:45:41.323 --> 00:45:44.423
becoming nonverbal, which I've watched that happen in my office.

00:45:44.663 --> 00:45:47.683
And they might need to immediately and completely remove themselves from the

00:45:47.683 --> 00:45:48.483
environment to regulate.

00:45:48.743 --> 00:45:53.203
And one of the key differences here as well is that someone with ASD may use

00:45:53.203 --> 00:45:56.543
stimming behaviors. I've seen this again in my office with adults,

00:45:56.923 --> 00:45:59.463
like rocking or hand flapping, trying to coat.

00:45:59.683 --> 00:46:04.023
So if we're summarizing the key difference, HSPs typically maintain awareness

00:46:04.023 --> 00:46:06.403
and they can articulate their experience while they're managing it.

00:46:06.503 --> 00:46:09.963
While those with ASD might experience more sudden and overwhelming reactions

00:46:09.963 --> 00:46:14.683
that require a complete removal from the situation, and you may see more stimming behaviors.

00:46:15.043 --> 00:46:18.463
And let me talk about stimming for a couple of minutes, because this is something

00:46:18.463 --> 00:46:21.483
that I have done my best to learn a lot about over the years.

00:46:21.983 --> 00:46:25.563
Because you'll see some overlap here with people like myself who literally need

00:46:25.563 --> 00:46:29.063
a fidget cube or I will pick down every single part of my cuticles.

00:46:29.383 --> 00:46:33.703
Right now I have a constant callus on my right index finger that I can pick at,

00:46:33.903 --> 00:46:38.143
or I can be so annoying clicking a pin or have a wonderful client who likes

00:46:38.143 --> 00:46:41.563
to bring me hot chocolate and it comes with a plastic stir stick and I will

00:46:41.563 --> 00:46:44.683
have a field day biting it, bending it, flicking it.

00:46:44.983 --> 00:46:48.283
That's what it can look like in the ADHD world.

00:46:48.523 --> 00:46:51.363
So I kind of went on a tangent that I didn't mean to at that point,

00:46:51.363 --> 00:46:55.423
But let's get back to ASD stimming, and then I'll probably go back to the ADHD

00:46:55.423 --> 00:46:57.663
fidgeting, which is also known

00:46:57.663 --> 00:47:00.183
as doing cool things, and there's nothing wrong with that. Right, guys?

00:47:01.523 --> 00:47:06.883
Stimming, also known as self-stimulatory behavior, refers to repetitive movements

00:47:06.883 --> 00:47:11.763
or sounds that people with ASD use to regulate their sensory input and emotions.

00:47:11.763 --> 00:47:15.643
And it's a natural coping mechanism that can help with things like emotional

00:47:15.643 --> 00:47:19.683
regulation, sensory processing, concentration, anxiety management,

00:47:20.083 --> 00:47:24.143
self-expression, comfort, self-soothing, and common types of stimming.

00:47:24.203 --> 00:47:27.543
And I've seen every one of these that I'm about to mention.

00:47:28.401 --> 00:47:32.801
In my office, hand flapping, rocking back and forth, literally getting up and

00:47:32.801 --> 00:47:37.881
spinning, pacing, finger flicking, tapping objects, rubbing or touching specific

00:47:37.881 --> 00:47:39.341
textures over and over again.

00:47:39.581 --> 00:47:43.621
Or there's verbal and auditory stimming behaviors, humming, repeating words

00:47:43.621 --> 00:47:48.901
or phrases, making specific sounds, or echolalia, which is repeating other people's words.

00:47:49.101 --> 00:47:51.981
That's a big one. That was one of those when I was looking at the crossover

00:47:51.981 --> 00:47:57.301
between ASD and narcissistic traits and tendencies with couples where you often

00:47:57.301 --> 00:48:01.641
see, let's say a wife says that you've really hurt me the way that you've shown up.

00:48:01.821 --> 00:48:05.501
And she's never used those words before, but she's been working on that with her therapist.

00:48:05.681 --> 00:48:11.941
And then her immature, narcissistic, or ASD husband says those exact same words. Well, you also hurt me.

00:48:12.041 --> 00:48:14.021
That's exactly how I feel like because you haven't been showing up.

00:48:14.221 --> 00:48:16.021
So this repeating others' words.

00:48:16.441 --> 00:48:20.701
There can also be visual, staring at spinning objects, watching lights flicker,

00:48:20.881 --> 00:48:23.661
looking at objects from different angles, tracking moving objects.

00:48:23.661 --> 00:48:28.001
So while stimming is most commonly associated with autism, most commonly,

00:48:28.241 --> 00:48:31.701
not an all or nothing statement, neurotypical people also stim,

00:48:32.021 --> 00:48:33.561
like tapping a pin or fidgeting.

00:48:33.761 --> 00:48:36.601
But the key difference is that autistic stimming tends to be more frequent,

00:48:36.841 --> 00:48:40.521
it tends to be more noticeable, and more essential for their regulation.

00:48:40.721 --> 00:48:45.561
And it's less influenced by social norms. When I see one of my clients in particular

00:48:45.561 --> 00:48:49.441
who does the hand flapping, they're not worried about what that looks like,

00:48:49.501 --> 00:48:50.561
even if they're out in public.

00:48:50.581 --> 00:48:55.081
It just has to happen. but I'm not carrying my fidget cube around with me and

00:48:55.081 --> 00:48:56.661
busting it out in the middle of a shopping mall.

00:48:56.841 --> 00:49:00.101
Although I wouldn't mind doing that. It's just kind of bulky and awkward in my pocket.

00:49:00.801 --> 00:49:04.061
But I think importantly, stimming is usually harmless and it shouldn't be discouraged

00:49:04.061 --> 00:49:07.421
unless it's causing harm to the person or other people because it's a vital

00:49:07.421 --> 00:49:10.021
self-regulation tool for many people that have ASD.

00:49:10.621 --> 00:49:13.301
But let me just do a real quick similarities.

00:49:13.961 --> 00:49:16.901
ASD stimming and ADHD fidgeting. This is fascinating to me.

00:49:17.181 --> 00:49:20.161
The key similarities that both serve self-regulatory functions.

00:49:20.421 --> 00:49:22.301
Both help with focus and concentration.

00:49:22.601 --> 00:49:27.401
Both can be unconscious and automatic, and both may increase during stress or excitement.

00:49:27.641 --> 00:49:32.981
Now, the key difference is purpose, because the ASD version of stimming primarily

00:49:32.981 --> 00:49:36.141
focuses on sensory regulation and emotional processing.

00:49:36.961 --> 00:49:43.121
ADHD stimming typically helps with attention focus and an excess amount of energy.

00:49:43.261 --> 00:49:45.661
It helps you release that, and it really does.

00:49:46.667 --> 00:49:50.387
So then how is it presented? ASD, more varied, more complex movements and sounds,

00:49:50.507 --> 00:49:54.687
rocking, flapping, complex finger movements, ADHD, usually simpler movements,

00:49:55.267 --> 00:49:59.287
tapping, tapping your foot incessantly, bouncing, basic object manipulation.

00:49:59.587 --> 00:50:02.467
And then I go back to social awareness. In the world of ASD,

00:50:02.607 --> 00:50:06.407
less influenced by social context may continue regardless of whatever setting,

00:50:06.587 --> 00:50:09.247
wherever you're at, you may still have to feel this need to stim.

00:50:09.727 --> 00:50:13.947
But for people with ADHD, more socially modulated. And so it can often switch

00:50:13.947 --> 00:50:18.147
to less noticeable forms. Some of the tools used, ASD may prefer specific textures,

00:50:18.367 --> 00:50:19.727
sounds, movements without tools.

00:50:20.307 --> 00:50:25.167
ADHD often uses purpose-made fidget tools, spinners, stress balls.

00:50:25.787 --> 00:50:26.687
Putty. I've had them all.

00:50:27.207 --> 00:50:30.787
And then the intensity, ASD can be more intense and essential for functioning.

00:50:31.347 --> 00:50:34.707
ADHD generally is more subtle and supplementary to other coping strategies.

00:50:34.887 --> 00:50:39.147
But both behaviors are valid coping mechanisms that they shouldn't be discouraged,

00:50:39.447 --> 00:50:40.847
again, unless they're causing harm.

00:50:41.027 --> 00:50:43.347
If all of a sudden I feel the need to chuck my fidget cube at somebody,

00:50:43.507 --> 00:50:44.687
we probably need to have a talk.

00:50:45.167 --> 00:50:48.287
So let's go back to the scenarios. We're still talking about the nature of sensitivity.

00:50:48.527 --> 00:50:50.607
So scenario two, you're in a new restaurant.

00:50:50.927 --> 00:50:55.467
The HSP response quickly notices and processes multiple aspects of the environment,

00:50:55.827 --> 00:51:00.927
lighting, music, volume, temperature, other people's dinner conversations.

00:51:01.267 --> 00:51:04.927
And they can identify which sensory inputs are pleasant versus which ones are

00:51:04.927 --> 00:51:08.787
uncomfortable. And they might request a quieter table or ask for the music to be turned down.

00:51:09.207 --> 00:51:13.387
But they can typically adapt and enjoy the meal once initial adjustments are

00:51:13.387 --> 00:51:17.327
made. and they remain aware, but they can start to filter the background stimuli.

00:51:17.607 --> 00:51:21.647
In that same scenario, an ASD response, they might find certain aspects of the

00:51:21.647 --> 00:51:25.447
environment completely intolerable, like the clink of silverware or the smell

00:51:25.447 --> 00:51:27.907
of certain foods. Let's go back to talking about sardines.

00:51:28.187 --> 00:51:31.487
They can have difficulty filtering out background noise to focus on their dining

00:51:31.487 --> 00:51:35.167
companions' conversations, and they might need very specific conditions to be

00:51:35.167 --> 00:51:39.747
comfortable, like sitting in a particular spot or having certain foods not touch on the plate.

00:51:40.581 --> 00:51:44.261
They may even find the unpredictability of new sounds and smells really distressing

00:51:44.261 --> 00:51:47.841
and want to continue to just go back to the same place, eat the same things.

00:51:48.121 --> 00:51:49.541
And they can seek sensory input

00:51:49.541 --> 00:51:53.061
by preferring very spicy foods or specific textures at times as well.

00:51:53.361 --> 00:51:56.901
So going back to the key difference there, HSPs processing their environment,

00:51:57.081 --> 00:52:01.641
maybe we'll call it more holistically and can usually adapt with some modifications,

00:52:01.641 --> 00:52:07.081
while those with ASD might have more specific and intense sensory needs that might be less flexible.

00:52:07.681 --> 00:52:10.961
Let's go to scenario three, a change in your office environment.

00:52:11.561 --> 00:52:16.301
The HSP response might look like the person immediately notices subtle changes,

00:52:16.301 --> 00:52:19.401
like a new air freshener or different lighting, or is that a new rug?

00:52:19.661 --> 00:52:23.361
They can usually pinpoint exactly what's changed and then why it's affecting them.

00:52:23.701 --> 00:52:26.561
And they might feel distracted, but they can typically continue working,

00:52:26.761 --> 00:52:29.141
but they're going to need to address the change.

00:52:29.381 --> 00:52:33.321
And they can effectively communicate their needs. Hey, the new air freshener

00:52:33.321 --> 00:52:36.361
is pretty strong, kind of giving me a headache. Can we try something milder?

00:52:37.081 --> 00:52:40.921
There are multiple clients that I have that I know when I have them coming that

00:52:40.921 --> 00:52:46.621
day that I don't burn a candle because they are just so overwhelmed by strong smells.

00:52:47.181 --> 00:52:50.501
And sometimes they will come in and say, oh, do you have a candle going today?

00:52:50.661 --> 00:52:55.141
And it would have been from the day before, but they just smell things more deeply.

00:52:56.541 --> 00:53:00.181
Now back to this office environment, the person with ASD, their response might

00:53:00.181 --> 00:53:02.641
feel intense discomfort without immediately recognizing why.

00:53:02.781 --> 00:53:06.161
They're just not sure. and they may find the change very disruptive to their

00:53:06.161 --> 00:53:07.921
routine and their ability to focus.

00:53:08.601 --> 00:53:12.341
I've seen this happen when I've adjusted things in my office or once when I

00:53:12.341 --> 00:53:13.721
moved from one building to the next.

00:53:13.921 --> 00:53:18.441
One of my clients that was in their 20s, that very high functioning ASD,

00:53:18.681 --> 00:53:22.561
let me know for weeks that they just didn't like that they had to go a different

00:53:22.561 --> 00:53:25.741
way and that they're in a new building and they just didn't really like the office.

00:53:26.261 --> 00:53:29.981
In that scenario, that person needed significant time to adjust even to minor

00:53:29.981 --> 00:53:31.321
changes, but this was a big change.

00:53:32.081 --> 00:53:35.401
And they might really have difficulty articulating what's bothering them.

00:53:35.521 --> 00:53:39.621
And this person definitely did have difficulty understanding that that was why

00:53:39.621 --> 00:53:43.321
they just felt so unsure, uneasy, or anxious when they were coming to the new building.

00:53:43.981 --> 00:53:47.301
And so then somebody with ASD could experience shutdown or meltdown if the change

00:53:47.301 --> 00:53:51.301
is too disruptive. I realized at that point that I might even lose a client because of it.

00:53:52.195 --> 00:53:54.395
So back to these key differences in this office environment,

00:53:54.555 --> 00:53:56.115
HSPs typically maintain awareness.

00:53:56.295 --> 00:53:59.695
They can articulate their sensory experiences, but they're still trying to manage them.

00:53:59.855 --> 00:54:03.515
And then those with ASD might experience more intense disruption from changes

00:54:03.515 --> 00:54:06.195
and need more time and support to adjust.

00:54:06.935 --> 00:54:11.575
So I think, and we'll wrap this up, the fundamental differences across all these

00:54:11.575 --> 00:54:16.975
scenarios is that HSPs generally maintain conscious awareness of their sensory experience.

00:54:17.235 --> 00:54:20.375
They can typically identify and articulate what's bothering them.

00:54:21.075 --> 00:54:25.355
And they usually, you can see typically and usually, these are not all or nothing

00:54:25.355 --> 00:54:28.515
statements, usually have more flexibility in their coping strategies.

00:54:28.635 --> 00:54:31.175
And they can often adapt within the situation.

00:54:31.535 --> 00:54:36.435
While those with ASD typically have more sudden or intense reactions to sensory input.

00:54:36.615 --> 00:54:40.335
And they might find it harder to express or identify what's causing that distress.

00:54:40.775 --> 00:54:43.915
And so they may need more specific and consistent accommodations.

00:54:44.355 --> 00:54:50.215
And then they often require more time and support to process and adapt to sensory changes.

00:54:50.835 --> 00:54:53.875
Actually, before we wrap things up, and I know this is going a bit long,

00:54:54.015 --> 00:54:58.415
but one of the places you see the most difference is in social interactions.

00:54:58.735 --> 00:55:00.975
Let me spend a little bit of time here because I think this is where you can

00:55:00.975 --> 00:55:04.455
really identify key differences, but you'll also see that there continues to

00:55:04.455 --> 00:55:05.455
be similarities as well.

00:55:05.995 --> 00:55:10.355
So let's talk about social hierarchies and conversation timing and things like

00:55:10.355 --> 00:55:11.575
that that happen in a group setting

00:55:11.575 --> 00:55:14.355
and why these can be particularly challenging for somebody with ASD.

00:55:15.095 --> 00:55:18.875
Because you can think of social hierarchy is almost like this invisible,

00:55:18.875 --> 00:55:21.935
I guess, like a web of relationships and power dynamics.

00:55:22.175 --> 00:55:25.335
So in most group settings, especially professional ones, there are unwritten

00:55:25.335 --> 00:55:28.255
rules about who can say what, when, and how.

00:55:28.555 --> 00:55:31.575
For neurotypical people, these rules are often intuitive.

00:55:31.895 --> 00:55:35.815
They naturally sense when to defer to authority or how to navigate complex relationships.

00:55:36.355 --> 00:55:41.355
For somebody with ASD, these invisible rules can be really challenging to perceive

00:55:41.355 --> 00:55:42.555
and especially to navigate.

00:55:42.835 --> 00:55:45.655
Because imagine somebody trying to play a game where everybody else seems to

00:55:45.655 --> 00:55:49.195
know the rules instinctively, but you've never been explicitly told them.

00:55:49.315 --> 00:55:51.755
And even if you are told them, it makes no sense to you.

00:55:52.075 --> 00:55:56.375
And this is often how social hierarchies feel to somebody with ASD.

00:55:56.775 --> 00:56:00.355
So if you go back to this workplace environment, you might be in a workplace

00:56:00.355 --> 00:56:03.755
meeting, and this is very much based on real life experience.

00:56:04.135 --> 00:56:08.095
There are subtle differences in how you might, let's say, challenge an idea

00:56:08.095 --> 00:56:12.955
from a peer versus a senior manager, or present technical information to different

00:56:12.955 --> 00:56:14.935
audience levels or know where certain

00:56:14.935 --> 00:56:17.715
topics should be discussed privately rather than in group settings.

00:56:18.135 --> 00:56:20.875
I remember going and doing demonstrations of software when

00:56:20.875 --> 00:56:24.095
I was in the software industry well before I became a therapist and taking

00:56:24.095 --> 00:56:29.475
an engineer or two with me and I was talking to magazine editors trying to get

00:56:29.475 --> 00:56:33.495
favorable reviews and then you would have this engineer just talk completely

00:56:33.495 --> 00:56:38.295
over their head and when I would say hey can you try to dumb that down they

00:56:38.295 --> 00:56:41.035
would just look at me and think I don't understand this is the way it works.

00:56:42.329 --> 00:56:46.909
Let's talk also about timing in group conversations. Group conversations have

00:56:46.909 --> 00:56:49.329
a natural rhythm, almost like a dance.

00:56:49.649 --> 00:56:53.029
When you know to jump in, when you share a story, when you don't.

00:56:53.409 --> 00:56:58.009
So for most people, the rhythm can somewhat come naturally.

00:56:58.569 --> 00:57:01.829
Even if that's not a rhythm or a situation that you participate in,

00:57:02.029 --> 00:57:06.329
you might be able to sit back and still observe and understand when you could jump in.

00:57:06.449 --> 00:57:11.789
They can sense the right moment to join, when to hold back or when somebody else is about to speak.

00:57:12.509 --> 00:57:16.769
But typically for someone with ASD, this rhythm, it can be really difficult to perceive.

00:57:17.569 --> 00:57:21.029
It's almost like trying to join like a jump rope game in motion.

00:57:21.349 --> 00:57:26.289
They can see the rope turning, but timing your entry perfectly requires complex

00:57:26.289 --> 00:57:28.209
coordination and a prediction of patterns.

00:57:28.549 --> 00:57:32.429
And I think here's where it gets back to the differences of where I've spoken

00:57:32.429 --> 00:57:37.349
with enough HSPs who sit back and watch a group dynamic play out and understand

00:57:37.349 --> 00:57:41.669
they just choose not to interject because they're worried that they might say

00:57:41.669 --> 00:57:44.249
the wrong thing or that somebody might take something the wrong way.

00:57:44.609 --> 00:57:48.849
So, often they just don't say anything. But then that person with ASD is trying

00:57:48.849 --> 00:57:52.129
to interject and it's awkward and it doesn't work and they're not quite sure why.

00:57:52.609 --> 00:57:56.309
And here's what makes these things really challenging. So, things like conversational

00:57:56.309 --> 00:58:01.009
pauses aren't always invitations to speak because sometimes people pause to breathe or to think.

00:58:01.389 --> 00:58:05.489
And multiple subtle cues might signal that somebody is about to speak,

00:58:05.489 --> 00:58:08.349
slight body movements and take a breath, shifting position.

00:58:09.169 --> 00:58:12.149
And then the one that can be a real challenge for people with ASD,

00:58:12.229 --> 00:58:16.049
the right amount of time to speak. Because that can vary by context and social setting.

00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:18.869
Go back to Sarah and Michael at the beginning of this episode,

00:58:19.009 --> 00:58:23.709
which was very much based on a true story, and where Sarah did not understand

00:58:23.709 --> 00:58:25.429
the rhythm of communicating.

00:58:25.929 --> 00:58:29.129
And then different people might send different signals about wanting to enter

00:58:29.129 --> 00:58:30.929
the conversation or to leave the conversation.

00:58:36.038 --> 00:58:40.978
Let's go back to Sarah. So now she's in a meeting and Sarah has very important

00:58:40.978 --> 00:58:43.458
information that she wants to share about a technical issue.

00:58:43.698 --> 00:58:47.938
So she sees what she thinks is a pause in the conversation and she starts speaking

00:58:47.938 --> 00:58:48.958
about the technical problem.

00:58:49.218 --> 00:58:50.638
What she hasn't noticed is that

00:58:50.638 --> 00:58:54.018
the team leader was taking a breath to transition to the next agenda item.

00:58:54.478 --> 00:58:57.658
And there was already another colleague who had slightly raised their hand indicating,

00:58:58.198 --> 00:58:59.898
okay, can I have, can I speak for a second.

00:59:00.138 --> 00:59:05.018
And then the current topic was pretty much wrapped up, not open for new discussion.

00:59:05.558 --> 00:59:10.358
So Sarah still contributed. And while it was valuable, it might be perceived

00:59:10.358 --> 00:59:13.398
as an interruption because she missed all these subtle social cues.

00:59:13.618 --> 00:59:16.498
And this isn't because she's being rude or doesn't care about others.

00:59:16.658 --> 00:59:21.478
It's because this complex web of social signals that guide conversation timing

00:59:21.478 --> 00:59:26.298
is not as naturally readable for her as it is for neurotypical individuals.

00:59:26.878 --> 00:59:30.418
So understanding these challenges, I think, can really help explain why somebody

00:59:30.418 --> 00:59:34.218
with ASD might appear to interrupt or speak at inappropriate times.

00:59:34.318 --> 00:59:38.418
They're not ignoring social rules. They're often simply unable to perceive those

00:59:38.418 --> 00:59:41.858
subtle cues that make these rules invisible to others.

00:59:41.998 --> 00:59:45.478
And this is fundamentally different from an HSP who might feel overwhelmed by

00:59:45.478 --> 00:59:50.578
social interaction, but they can read and navigate these social dynamics much more intuitively.

00:59:50.878 --> 00:59:54.438
If you look at an HP in a group conversation, most likely they're picking up

00:59:54.438 --> 00:59:57.478
the subtle emotional undertones in the group dynamics. They're probably noticing

00:59:57.478 --> 00:59:59.938
tension between others before it becomes really obvious.

01:00:00.058 --> 01:00:04.618
They might even jump in and try to buffer for one person who they think is starting

01:00:04.618 --> 01:00:06.258
to get frustrated with another.

01:00:06.398 --> 01:00:10.878
But they can also feel overwhelmed by absorbing and metabolizing everybody else's emotions.

01:00:11.038 --> 01:00:14.558
So they may need breaks, but then they can still seamlessly just come back in

01:00:14.558 --> 01:00:15.478
and rejoin a conversation.

01:00:16.411 --> 01:00:19.971
And an example of that might be they notice a friend's slight change in tone,

01:00:20.451 --> 01:00:23.911
indicating discomfort, so then they naturally shift the topic.

01:00:24.171 --> 01:00:28.451
And back to ASD, most likely struggling, tracking multiple conversations.

01:00:28.711 --> 01:00:31.571
They might find it very difficult to enter into the discussions.

01:00:31.771 --> 01:00:35.131
Most likely, they may be missing social hierarchies and group dynamics.

01:00:35.231 --> 01:00:38.571
And they can become overwhelmed by processing multiple social inputs.

01:00:38.771 --> 01:00:41.591
So they might interrupt somebody without realizing, or they might continue a

01:00:41.591 --> 01:00:43.491
topic after others have moved on.

01:00:43.491 --> 01:00:51.051
And one more thing. I forgot I have some notes down about how nonverbal communication

01:00:51.051 --> 01:00:55.931
differs between HSPs and then people with ASD. Because this is a pretty big one.

01:00:56.431 --> 01:01:01.391
Think of HSP's ability to read nonverbal cues as like having really a highly

01:01:01.391 --> 01:01:04.511
sensitive emotional radar. Because they don't just see facial expressions and

01:01:04.511 --> 01:01:05.531
they don't just see body language.

01:01:05.671 --> 01:01:09.991
They process them together deeply, intuitively. And it's almost like similar

01:01:09.991 --> 01:01:14.551
to how a sommelier, a professional wine taster, can detect subtle notes.

01:01:14.751 --> 01:01:17.591
Something is always woody and undertones that others might miss.

01:01:18.071 --> 01:01:23.471
In my world, I think, I don't think they can do that. But what do I know? Because I'm not them.

01:01:24.151 --> 01:01:27.251
But this heightened sensitivity means that they're often processing layers of

01:01:27.251 --> 01:01:30.891
emotional information that others, even neurotypical individuals, may not notice.

01:01:31.411 --> 01:01:35.151
Imagine walking into a meeting room. The HSP might immediately notice slight

01:01:35.151 --> 01:01:37.411
tension in somebody's shoulders, indicating a little stress,

01:01:37.591 --> 01:01:40.891
barely perceivable tremor in somebody's voice, suggesting some anxiety.

01:01:41.031 --> 01:01:43.571
The way two colleagues are sitting slightly angled away from each other,

01:01:43.731 --> 01:01:47.411
suggesting that they might have a recent conflict, or maybe even a subtle shift

01:01:47.411 --> 01:01:49.971
in the room's entire energy when a particular topic is mentioned.

01:01:50.991 --> 01:01:55.431
And a reminder, the sensitivity is not learned. It's an inherent way that the

01:01:55.431 --> 01:01:57.871
brain processes social and emotional information.

01:01:58.091 --> 01:02:01.051
They may notice that a friend's laugh sounds slightly forced,

01:02:01.071 --> 01:02:04.511
or that a colleague's unusual enthusiastic greeting seems a little bit more

01:02:04.511 --> 01:02:08.811
subdued, leading them to sense something's wrong long before others pick up on it.

01:02:09.251 --> 01:02:14.151
But now if we look at nonverbal communication and ASD, if we look in contrast

01:02:14.151 --> 01:02:15.851
for many people with autism,

01:02:16.351 --> 01:02:19.851
reading nonverbal communication is like honestly trying to understand a foreign

01:02:19.851 --> 01:02:22.731
language without a translator, because the signals are there,

01:02:22.891 --> 01:02:24.811
but the inherent meaning isn't automatically processed.

01:02:25.011 --> 01:02:28.131
This isn't about intelligence, and it's definitely not about a lack of caring,

01:02:28.311 --> 01:02:31.891
but it's about, again, how their brain processes social information differently.

01:02:32.171 --> 01:02:36.811
So using the same meeting room scenario, a person with autism might miss the

01:02:36.811 --> 01:02:40.691
subtle signs of tension or conflict, focus on the literal words being spoken

01:02:40.691 --> 01:02:42.071
rather than tone or inflection,

01:02:42.251 --> 01:02:45.311
or find it challenging to maintain eye contact while processing what's being

01:02:45.311 --> 01:02:51.011
said, and they may need explicit verbal confirmation to other people's emotional states.

01:02:52.133 --> 01:02:54.953
What you often see is that, let's say, a conversation's wrapping up.

01:02:55.133 --> 01:02:57.773
And going back to that opening example, which I love so much,

01:02:57.913 --> 01:03:00.453
is when Michael said, well, I should probably let you get back to work.

01:03:00.833 --> 01:03:04.533
The HSP would immediately recognize this as a polite way to end the conversation

01:03:04.533 --> 01:03:06.613
and most likely apologize. I am so sorry I kept you this long.

01:03:07.053 --> 01:03:10.173
And then they're picking up on the subtle shifts in the body language,

01:03:10.173 --> 01:03:11.853
indicating that the person really needs to leave.

01:03:12.053 --> 01:03:15.073
They notice if the person's genuinely uncomfortable ending the conversation

01:03:15.073 --> 01:03:16.673
or maybe even feeling rushed.

01:03:16.833 --> 01:03:20.493
And again, the HSP is most likely going to be the one that is already apologized

01:03:20.493 --> 01:03:22.773
three or four times and is the one that's leaving.

01:03:23.253 --> 01:03:27.613
They will most likely respond with an appropriate social cue to facilitate a

01:03:27.613 --> 01:03:32.153
smooth ending, but take the person with ASD and they most likely will take that

01:03:32.153 --> 01:03:36.593
statement literally, maybe even responding with, I don't actually need to get back to work right now,

01:03:36.873 --> 01:03:39.933
missing that implied meaning that the other person wants to end the conversation

01:03:39.933 --> 01:03:45.653
and then continue the conversation until finally they are told that by somebody

01:03:45.653 --> 01:03:49.013
that it is time to wrap up and they feel confused when the other person seems

01:03:49.013 --> 01:03:52.373
frustrated despite not having directly stated that they needed to leave.

01:03:52.613 --> 01:03:56.173
So just that difference in processing nonverbal communication affects not just

01:03:56.173 --> 01:04:00.273
individual interactions, but how both groups experience social situations overall.

01:04:00.953 --> 01:04:05.733
HSPs might become overwhelmed because they're processing too much emotional info.

01:04:05.973 --> 01:04:09.373
But individuals with autism might become overwhelmed because they're working

01:04:09.373 --> 01:04:14.153
too hard to consciously decode social signals that other people process automatically.

01:04:14.593 --> 01:04:18.373
And this explains why HSPs might need recovery time after social interactions,

01:04:18.373 --> 01:04:22.293
and individuals with autism might need recovery time due to the mental effort

01:04:22.293 --> 01:04:26.673
required to consciously track and interpret social cues that don't come naturally to them.

01:04:26.813 --> 01:04:29.653
So I like to call this, it is the burning of emotional calories.

01:04:29.873 --> 01:04:34.113
So think of HSP's social energy as more like a rechargeable battery,

01:04:34.173 --> 01:04:36.033
and it drains gradually, but it's pretty predictable.

01:04:36.193 --> 01:04:39.993
They're typically very aware of their energy level. They can pace themselves accordingly.

01:04:40.233 --> 01:04:43.573
Their fatigue typically comes from processing the rich emotional and sensory

01:04:43.573 --> 01:04:44.813
information in social settings.

01:04:45.033 --> 01:04:47.573
Kind of like running multiple background programs on a computer,

01:04:47.773 --> 01:04:49.533
they slowly use up your processing power.

01:04:50.512 --> 01:04:54.232
So during that social event, the HSP might experience this gradual buildup of

01:04:54.232 --> 01:04:56.772
emotional information because they're absorbing everybody else's feelings.

01:04:57.472 --> 01:05:01.692
They have awareness of multiple layers of social dynamics happening right on

01:05:01.692 --> 01:05:02.532
the spot simultaneously.

01:05:02.772 --> 01:05:06.852
And then they have a deep processing of the conversations and the interactions that are having.

01:05:07.112 --> 01:05:10.452
And then that comes with conscious management of their own emotional responses.

01:05:10.732 --> 01:05:15.192
I think about a story I heard once at a wedding where this person that I think

01:05:15.192 --> 01:05:18.932
was very highly sensitive, they might participate dancing, engaging in deep

01:05:18.932 --> 01:05:24.132
conversations, celebrating with very genuine emotion, but they're aware this battery,

01:05:24.572 --> 01:05:26.632
this rechargeable battery is going quick.

01:05:26.832 --> 01:05:29.692
It is depleting. So they might take short breaks throughout the event,

01:05:29.832 --> 01:05:32.272
step outside for fresh air, find quieter moments to recharge.

01:05:32.472 --> 01:05:35.792
The next day, they probably need recovery time, not because the event was unpleasant,

01:05:35.992 --> 01:05:40.612
but because their emotional processing system needs time to integrate all the experiences.

01:05:40.872 --> 01:05:43.992
And if you think about the burning of emotional calories, somebody with ASD,

01:05:44.512 --> 01:05:47.832
the burning of emotional calories is more like trying to run a complex piece

01:05:47.832 --> 01:05:49.752
of software on incompatible hardware.

01:05:50.032 --> 01:05:55.212
The system might work, but it requires significant extra processing power and maybe a few updates.

01:05:55.812 --> 01:05:59.772
And every now and again, it might shut down unexpectedly if it becomes overwhelmed

01:05:59.772 --> 01:06:01.552
and you're going to have to reboot it.

01:06:01.772 --> 01:06:06.472
The fatigue comes from the constant conscious effort required to decode and

01:06:06.472 --> 01:06:09.632
respond to social situations that others would process automatically.

01:06:10.642 --> 01:06:14.242
So during these social interactions, somebody with ASD might experience intense

01:06:14.242 --> 01:06:18.642
focus, and that's required for just basic processing, trying to read facial

01:06:18.642 --> 01:06:21.022
expressions, trying to maintain appropriate eye contact.

01:06:21.302 --> 01:06:26.542
But they could have difficulty filtering the relevant social information from the background noise.

01:06:26.762 --> 01:06:30.942
And so they have this constant conscious analysis of social rules and expectations

01:06:30.942 --> 01:06:33.282
going, which takes up energy.

01:06:33.462 --> 01:06:37.262
And so they have this unexpected energy depletion from what could also seem

01:06:37.262 --> 01:06:38.682
like really simple interactions.

01:06:38.682 --> 01:06:43.242
You can take a common situation like small talk, because while most people engage in it automatically,

01:06:43.502 --> 01:06:47.082
for somebody with ASD, it might involve trying to remember appropriate conversation

01:06:47.082 --> 01:06:50.542
topics, or monitoring their own tone and volume, or attempting to gauge the

01:06:50.542 --> 01:06:53.762
other person's interest, or processing sensory information from the environment,

01:06:53.902 --> 01:06:56.362
or trying to identify when and how to end the conversation.

01:06:56.762 --> 01:06:59.582
And so I think this explains why somebody with ASD might suddenly reach their

01:06:59.582 --> 01:07:03.042
limit without warning, because it's almost like their processing demands became

01:07:03.042 --> 01:07:04.102
too intense to maintain.

01:07:04.402 --> 01:07:08.402
And it's like a computer or my phone, now that we moved to Arizona, that will overheat.

01:07:08.962 --> 01:07:11.902
And all of a sudden, it just shuts down. That's a fascinating one.

01:07:11.902 --> 01:07:14.602
If I think of one of the first clients I ever worked with with ASD,

01:07:14.842 --> 01:07:19.682
they came in and they were looking for help on why they would be in a big meeting

01:07:19.682 --> 01:07:23.562
or they would be talking with guys in the hallway or they would be talking with

01:07:23.562 --> 01:07:24.622
their coworkers at lunch.

01:07:24.862 --> 01:07:29.522
And then all of a sudden they would realize this is boring me and they would just leave.

01:07:29.942 --> 01:07:33.142
And one of their coworkers finally pulled them aside and said,

01:07:33.522 --> 01:07:34.282
hey, that's kind of rude.

01:07:34.902 --> 01:07:38.222
Another one that was really fascinating about that person was they asked me

01:07:38.222 --> 01:07:42.542
if, doesn't everybody think often in movie quotes, which I thought was really

01:07:42.542 --> 01:07:45.722
interesting because they would just throw out movie quotes constantly.

01:07:45.862 --> 01:07:49.242
And when they weren't met with somebody else sharing a movie quote or sharing

01:07:49.242 --> 01:07:51.582
that experience, they didn't understand.

01:07:51.942 --> 01:07:56.522
And so they were coming to me asking for help on how do they communicate more

01:07:56.522 --> 01:07:59.202
effectively and not just through movie quotes.

01:07:59.522 --> 01:08:03.362
So it was very fascinating to see that. So I have more, I have so much more

01:08:03.362 --> 01:08:05.482
data. Maybe we'll save that for a follow-up at some point.

01:08:05.582 --> 01:08:08.962
I would love your feedback if you have experiences that you would like to share

01:08:08.962 --> 01:08:15.382
about your struggles or challenges or your wonderfulness with either HSP or ASD.

01:08:15.642 --> 01:08:18.262
And if any of this resonated with you, I would love your stories.

01:08:18.362 --> 01:08:22.482
I would love to do a follow-up that I just am able to share stories of how people

01:08:22.482 --> 01:08:26.502
have recognized maybe any of the things that we've talked about today and what

01:08:26.502 --> 01:08:29.782
they've done to either embrace it, accept it, or maybe even overcome it.

01:08:30.342 --> 01:08:34.822
But I'm just grateful for your time. I'm so thankful for people tuning into

01:08:34.822 --> 01:08:36.642
the podcast year after year.

01:08:36.982 --> 01:08:40.902
And I would love it if you would follow this and rate and subscribe and review

01:08:40.902 --> 01:08:43.862
and all those wonderful things wherever you get your podcast.

01:08:44.182 --> 01:08:48.982
And taking us out per usual on the virtual couch is Aurora Florence and her amazing song.

01:08:49.122 --> 01:08:53.582
It's wonderful because honestly, life truly can be once you embrace who you

01:08:53.582 --> 01:08:56.842
are because you're the only version of you. Have an amazing week. We'll see you next time.

01:08:57.040 --> 01:09:59.993
Music.