WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:15.118 --> 00:00:19.688 Hey everybody welcome to episode 125 of waking up to narcissism. 00:00:19.688 --> 00:00:20.628 I am your host, Tony overbay. 00:00:20.628 --> 00:00:22.888 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the virtual 00:00:22.898 --> 00:00:27.278 couch podcast, and a huge thank you to Riley hope for her song. 00:00:27.628 --> 00:00:28.348 Not my job. 00:00:28.608 --> 00:00:31.508 That thing is in my head constantly in a good kind of way. 00:00:31.748 --> 00:00:34.408 And I think it is the anthem of waking up the narcissism. 00:00:34.418 --> 00:00:37.148 So check out any and all of Riley's works. 00:00:37.408 --> 00:00:39.788 Just look for Riley hope wherever you stream music. 00:00:39.818 --> 00:00:42.458 And I'll also put some contact info in the show notes today. 00:00:43.313 --> 00:00:45.573 But today, let's start with a question. 00:00:46.353 --> 00:00:48.513 Person says, Hey, Tony, I'm a longtime listener to several of 00:00:48.513 --> 00:00:51.573 your podcasts and something clicked this week that got me to email you. 00:00:52.013 --> 00:00:54.183 I don't know if you're joking when you say this, but you have 00:00:54.183 --> 00:00:57.523 mentioned more than once that narcissists don't know they exist. 00:00:57.883 --> 00:00:59.243 Unless they're interacting with others. 00:00:59.673 --> 00:01:01.903 And I think I just experienced this first hand with my wife. 00:01:02.333 --> 00:01:06.863 So if I go too far down the way there, I am, but I'm not really joking. 00:01:06.873 --> 00:01:09.123 Because this is that concept of the false self. 00:01:09.553 --> 00:01:13.623 And if the person doesn't really have a true sense of self, and they don't 00:01:13.623 --> 00:01:16.283 feel good about themselves, rather than maybe sitting with that discomfort, 00:01:16.283 --> 00:01:18.953 doing a little self confrontation, and then taking action on something 00:01:19.003 --> 00:01:20.663 that matters or of value, you know? 00:01:21.153 --> 00:01:24.373 They're more likely to then say, okay, I'm going to go do a little bit 00:01:24.373 --> 00:01:26.553 of walking around and I'm going to interact with people so that then I 00:01:26.553 --> 00:01:29.503 can feel better about myself and I can put myself in this one up position. 00:01:29.973 --> 00:01:33.603 So that's where I'm coming from . Because right out of the womb, a little baby 00:01:33.603 --> 00:01:36.003 doesn't even know they're an entity unless they're interacting with others. 00:01:36.423 --> 00:01:39.003 And at that point, then game on to get their needs met. 00:01:39.383 --> 00:01:42.813 And when you talk about narcissism or people that are emotionally immature, 00:01:42.913 --> 00:01:46.643 I think that's why you can so easily make the connection with emotional 00:01:46.663 --> 00:01:50.923 immaturity, because rather than be okay with themselves or be able to sit with 00:01:50.923 --> 00:01:54.873 their own discomfort or do things to self soothe or manage their own time, 00:01:55.143 --> 00:01:58.353 it's like the little kid that you hear that's constantly saying, I'm bored. 00:01:58.673 --> 00:02:00.683 And then you tell them, we'll do this or do this. 00:02:00.693 --> 00:02:01.873 And they're like, I don't want to do that. 00:02:01.913 --> 00:02:02.693 I don't want to do that. 00:02:02.823 --> 00:02:03.223 Okay. 00:02:03.443 --> 00:02:04.363 You're not a good parent. 00:02:04.373 --> 00:02:08.233 I can't believe you're not giving me suggestions to do when all that started 00:02:08.233 --> 00:02:11.143 with was I'm bored and I don't know how to self soothe, I don't know how to do 00:02:11.143 --> 00:02:15.423 things on my own because if I do them and what if people aren't there to tell 00:02:15.423 --> 00:02:18.643 me how good I did, or what if there isn't another comparison I can make 00:02:18.643 --> 00:02:22.543 there to make me know that I did this better than somebody else did versus. 00:02:23.043 --> 00:02:24.433 This is what I'm doing and I'm okay. 00:02:25.333 --> 00:02:28.693 So back to the letter, he said our last child left for college 00:02:28.703 --> 00:02:31.313 recently and my wife has seemed more withdrawn and irritable. 00:02:31.653 --> 00:02:34.853 Yesterday she approached me asking if I was okay with our lack of connection. 00:02:35.383 --> 00:02:38.343 Something felt off about the question so I asked her what she meant. 00:02:38.778 --> 00:02:42.408 She launched into a lecture about how I don't show up for her, how alone she 00:02:42.408 --> 00:02:45.558 feels, and how she sees other couples on Instagram doing things together 00:02:45.558 --> 00:02:49.138 all the time, and she concluded that I must not care about her. 00:02:49.768 --> 00:02:52.318 I found myself falling into our usual pattern, trying to convince her that 00:02:52.318 --> 00:02:54.518 I do care, and promising to do better. 00:02:55.006 --> 00:02:58.676 But this time, I reviewed the game film, as you often say, and noticed something. 00:02:59.026 --> 00:03:02.946 These confrontations seem to happen more frequently since our daughter left for 00:03:02.946 --> 00:03:06.726 college, and my wife appears to be picking small fights just to get me to engage. 00:03:07.641 --> 00:03:10.321 So I'm curious, is this what you meant about narcissists not 00:03:10.321 --> 00:03:11.621 existing without interaction? 00:03:11.981 --> 00:03:14.201 Is she trying to create conflict just to feel something? 00:03:14.511 --> 00:03:17.071 I'm starting to see how these conversations always end with me 00:03:17.071 --> 00:03:20.451 trying to prove my worth, while then she maintains the upper hand. 00:03:20.451 --> 00:03:21.201 Thanks for all you do. 00:03:21.891 --> 00:03:22.831 We'll call him Tom. 00:03:23.331 --> 00:03:24.051 So thank you, Tom. 00:03:24.161 --> 00:03:27.471 That was a very thoughtful question, and it's a really good question that 00:03:27.561 --> 00:03:29.541 is the perfect muse to talk about. 00:03:29.771 --> 00:03:32.341 A few things that I've been wanting to talk about around 00:03:32.341 --> 00:03:35.071 the world of narcissistic and emotionally immature people. 00:03:35.461 --> 00:03:38.661 And if anybody is new, welcome aboard, I'm going to use the word 00:03:38.681 --> 00:03:43.131 narcissist, but that is because it is far less syllables than narcissist 00:03:43.381 --> 00:03:47.011 person who has narcissistic traits and tendencies, or someone who is on the 00:03:47.011 --> 00:03:50.261 scale of emotional immaturity, more than likely pretty high up on that 00:03:50.261 --> 00:03:54.151 scale, just tiptoeing into the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies. 00:03:54.581 --> 00:03:58.281 So I know that I'm talking more about more emotionally immature people because 00:03:58.641 --> 00:04:01.531 if we all start from a place of we're all pretty emotionally immature until 00:04:01.531 --> 00:04:06.051 we're not, then hopefully you can gain something from hearing all of the 00:04:06.051 --> 00:04:07.171 things that we'll talk about today. 00:04:07.561 --> 00:04:11.721 People are waking up to their own narcissistic traits and tendencies or the 00:04:11.721 --> 00:04:14.911 narcissistic traits and tendencies or the emotional immaturity in their partner. 00:04:15.098 --> 00:04:17.548 I think that that email, really highlights something 00:04:17.908 --> 00:04:20.768 crucial about narcissistic relationships to explore today. 00:04:20.868 --> 00:04:24.058 Because when we understand how narcissists depend on others for their 00:04:24.058 --> 00:04:27.308 whole sense of self, then I think that's when we start to see a pattern. 00:04:27.733 --> 00:04:31.263 And we're really trying to start to identify patterns that 00:04:31.263 --> 00:04:32.763 might've been invisible before. 00:04:33.113 --> 00:04:35.853 I did an episode on this a while ago. 00:04:35.973 --> 00:04:39.083 I want to say at least a couple of years ago that I wanted to get back 00:04:39.083 --> 00:04:43.853 to because it was pretty dramatically saying game changing when I understood 00:04:44.073 --> 00:04:47.903 this concept of well, let me give credit where the credit is due. 00:04:48.213 --> 00:04:51.903 The episode I did a while ago was based off of an article by Julie Hall, and 00:04:51.903 --> 00:04:55.223 she's the author of The Narcissist in Your Life and creator of The Narcissist 00:04:55.223 --> 00:04:58.393 Files, and I'll have links to her work in the show notes as well as the 00:04:58.393 --> 00:05:03.133 article that acted as a muse to this earlier episode that I did on what 00:05:03.133 --> 00:05:06.223 we're going to talk about today, as well as we'll refer to it today as well. 00:05:06.493 --> 00:05:10.343 You can find it on Psychology Today, and it's called Understanding the 00:05:10.343 --> 00:05:12.733 Narcissist Antagonistic Attachment Style. 00:05:13.343 --> 00:05:15.613 , , the first time I read this one, it blew my mind. 00:05:16.143 --> 00:05:18.463 And we'll touch on a lot of the concepts around that, and I want to 00:05:18.463 --> 00:05:21.723 go deeper into some examples of , what this antagonistic attachment style 00:05:21.723 --> 00:05:25.013 looks like, or why somebody that is emotionally immature or narcissistic 00:05:25.013 --> 00:05:26.503 does need another human to interact with. 00:05:26.953 --> 00:05:29.903 So we're going to deep dive into what Julie Hall referred to as the 00:05:29.903 --> 00:05:33.093 narcissist or the emotionally immature partner's antagonistic attachment, 00:05:33.563 --> 00:05:36.703 because this is a way of relating where one person can only feel good about 00:05:36.703 --> 00:05:38.433 themselves by making others feel bad. 00:05:38.973 --> 00:05:41.923 You can think of it like a relationship, like a seesaw, where when one person 00:05:41.923 --> 00:05:45.483 goes up, the other must go down, and that pattern is really clear 00:05:45.503 --> 00:05:48.643 during major life transitions, like when children leave home, or the 00:05:48.643 --> 00:05:52.133 narcissist loses some of their regular sources of their emotional supply. 00:05:52.723 --> 00:05:55.983 What we'll explore today, it's not just theory, because it's about 00:05:55.983 --> 00:05:58.893 understanding how these relationship dynamics play out in real life, 00:05:59.193 --> 00:06:00.993 from the very subtle put downs. 00:06:01.398 --> 00:06:04.618 Things like family dinners to some of the more insidious ways that the 00:06:04.618 --> 00:06:06.738 narcissist attacks to maintain control, 00:06:07.048 --> 00:06:10.928 but more importantly, we'll talk about why recognizing these patterns 00:06:10.968 --> 00:06:14.888 is the first step toward reclaiming your own sense of self from going 00:06:14.888 --> 00:06:18.028 from, I didn't know what I didn't know to now I know, so what do I do? 00:06:18.818 --> 00:06:23.068 Because when people are securely attached, they form healthy relationships and those 00:06:23.078 --> 00:06:25.318 help both people grow and feel supported. 00:06:25.888 --> 00:06:28.648 Because you can think of this as like a strong friendship where both 00:06:28.648 --> 00:06:30.068 friends want the best for each other. 00:06:30.088 --> 00:06:33.428 There's reciprocity in the friendship and it doesn't mean 00:06:33.428 --> 00:06:34.858 that it's an equal tit for tat. 00:06:35.218 --> 00:06:39.788 That's not a very healthy way to interact with others but I know that I am going 00:06:39.788 --> 00:06:42.998 to be there for this person and they're going to be there for me too, as best they 00:06:42.998 --> 00:06:45.838 can, they can share their feelings openly. 00:06:45.848 --> 00:06:49.128 You can help each other through the tough times, but through 00:06:49.168 --> 00:06:50.268 both of your tough times. 00:06:50.508 --> 00:06:53.938 And you can celebrate each other's successes, not feel like, well, if 00:06:53.958 --> 00:06:58.468 you just got that promotion, then you must think that I am not as important. 00:06:59.088 --> 00:07:02.558 Because these mutually reciprocal relationships, those are the 00:07:02.558 --> 00:07:05.808 kind of relationships that make both people stronger and happier. 00:07:06.048 --> 00:07:08.488 And I'm not saying that you have to have this other person to feel good about 00:07:08.488 --> 00:07:12.168 yourself, but we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human. 00:07:12.288 --> 00:07:16.328 So when it's a safe human being, I only know what my experience is, and I would 00:07:16.328 --> 00:07:19.428 love to bounce that off of someone else and say, Hey, what's your experience? 00:07:19.458 --> 00:07:21.528 And then we can both be curious about the way that we're 00:07:21.528 --> 00:07:22.578 showing up in life together. 00:07:23.378 --> 00:07:28.918 But in contrast, the narcissist approaches relationships like a predator or a 00:07:28.918 --> 00:07:32.878 parasite because they're always trying to win at somebody else's expense. 00:07:32.878 --> 00:07:36.478 And you've most likely, if you're listening to this podcast, had an 00:07:36.478 --> 00:07:40.348 experience with somebody who only hangs out with you when they need something, 00:07:40.848 --> 00:07:44.398 or they always have to prove that they're better than you, the classic one upper. 00:07:44.808 --> 00:07:46.718 They might act nice in public, but then they're going to 00:07:46.718 --> 00:07:48.078 treat you badly in private. 00:07:48.558 --> 00:07:51.928 And that is really unhealthy because relationships are not supposed to 00:07:51.928 --> 00:07:56.298 be competitions where one person wins and the other person loses. 00:07:56.298 --> 00:07:59.728 And the damage caused by narcissistic relationships then goes way beyond 00:07:59.738 --> 00:08:03.238 hurting one person's feelings, because when somebody is constantly 00:08:03.238 --> 00:08:07.298 put down, manipulated, or used by the narcissist, that can affect 00:08:07.298 --> 00:08:11.658 your mental health, your self esteem, and your ability to trust yourself. 00:08:11.709 --> 00:08:13.879 And others for a long time to come. 00:08:14.056 --> 00:08:16.636 And then that trauma is spread throughout families. 00:08:16.636 --> 00:08:20.376 For example, if kids grow up with a narcissistic parent, then they may 00:08:20.376 --> 00:08:21.796 struggle in their own relationships. 00:08:21.796 --> 00:08:24.496 Not may they will struggle in their own relationships later in life. 00:08:24.673 --> 00:08:27.783 , it's the butterfly effect or throwing a stone in the pond and the 00:08:27.793 --> 00:08:30.863 ripples just, they spread out and they affect everything around them. 00:08:31.503 --> 00:08:35.023 And this is why it's so important to recognize these unhealthy patterns and 00:08:35.023 --> 00:08:38.773 learn what healthy relationships actually look like, whether you are the one that 00:08:38.773 --> 00:08:40.293 showing up more emotionally immature. 00:08:40.698 --> 00:08:45.338 Or you are in an emotionally immature relationship because your kids 00:08:45.378 --> 00:08:47.948 are mapping what you are doing. 00:08:47.958 --> 00:08:51.418 They are starting to look at your relationship and saying, okay, so this 00:08:51.418 --> 00:08:52.848 is what healthy relationship looks like. 00:08:53.174 --> 00:08:54.404 let's set the stage a little bit. 00:08:54.874 --> 00:08:57.614 Think of the narcissist as somebody who can only see their reflection 00:08:58.344 --> 00:08:59.409 and other people's reactions. 00:08:59.409 --> 00:09:02.587 So without the interactions, they don't have a solid sense 00:09:02.587 --> 00:09:04.493 of self of who they are. 00:09:05.204 --> 00:09:07.164 Because it's almost like they're invisible to themselves. 00:09:07.604 --> 00:09:09.924 So whenever they meet somebody, they desperately need to 00:09:09.924 --> 00:09:11.864 feel important and real. 00:09:12.514 --> 00:09:15.114 And the easiest way for them to do this is to make themselves feel 00:09:15.124 --> 00:09:17.014 bigger by making others feel smaller. 00:09:17.564 --> 00:09:22.529 Or, and we'll talk about one up one down position later, but Even going into victim 00:09:22.599 --> 00:09:24.839 is now saying, Hey, I'm doing so bad. 00:09:24.849 --> 00:09:29.149 You now need to pay attention to me, or you need to validate how bad my life is, 00:09:29.479 --> 00:09:31.629 or you need to validate how awesome I am. 00:09:31.959 --> 00:09:35.579 But either way, the narcissist takes control of the narrative 00:09:35.599 --> 00:09:38.399 of the conversation of the dynamic in the friendship. 00:09:39.049 --> 00:09:43.829 So they may do it by putting others down or even showing off or making everything 00:09:43.829 --> 00:09:45.149 a competition that they have to win. 00:09:45.899 --> 00:09:49.099 Because it's like they're constantly building themselves up by stepping 00:09:49.119 --> 00:09:53.469 over others or on others because they don't know how to feel good Just 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:57.609 about themselves otherwise and this starts to create a cycle where they 00:09:57.609 --> 00:10:01.919 need constant validation from others But they can only get it by hurting 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.699 those same people by taking that one up position and the sad part is that 00:10:05.709 --> 00:10:10.239 this What they view as a superior version of themselves is not real. 00:10:10.359 --> 00:10:14.219 I mean, it's a mask that they wear to hide how empty they feel inside. 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:18.439 But don't, if you point that out to them they aren't going to say, 00:10:18.439 --> 00:10:19.859 man, there's some real truth there. 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:21.559 Now it's going to be, Oh, Mr. 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:22.149 Psychologist. 00:10:22.149 --> 00:10:23.069 So you think you're smart? 00:10:23.069 --> 00:10:25.779 Well, let me tell you how smart I am, or man, you know what? 00:10:25.999 --> 00:10:27.859 I don't know why I do that. 00:10:27.939 --> 00:10:28.889 Something's wrong with me. 00:10:29.359 --> 00:10:32.079 But in either one of those, now you're either on the defense or 00:10:32.079 --> 00:10:33.089 you're going to go validate them. 00:10:33.709 --> 00:10:36.069 Let me talk a little bit about how these patterns show up in marriages 00:10:36.079 --> 00:10:39.609 as a couple's therapist, where one person's need to feel important ends up. 00:10:40.029 --> 00:10:44.469 And this is what's Unfortunate, but true, slowly breaking down the other 00:10:44.469 --> 00:10:46.329 person's sense of self or confidence. 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:51.289 Picture a couple in a kitchen and the husband might constantly just hover over 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:53.889 his wife while she cooks and pointing out everything that she's doing wrong. 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:54.959 She might cut this wrong. 00:10:54.959 --> 00:10:55.869 She might do this wrong. 00:10:55.869 --> 00:10:56.589 It's not really the. 00:10:56.859 --> 00:10:59.849 The cups you're going to use for that, or really you're using that spatula. 00:10:59.949 --> 00:11:02.379 I like this other one, even though here's the thing. 00:11:02.449 --> 00:11:05.789 She is an adult human being who has actually been cooking delicious meals 00:11:05.789 --> 00:11:09.489 for years and eating them and being able to sustain herself and her kids. 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.059 But over time, what does she do? 00:11:12.069 --> 00:11:15.019 She starts to second guess every move that she makes in the kitchen until 00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:16.569 she just stops cooking altogether. 00:11:17.139 --> 00:11:17.849 Then what happens? 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.309 Now he complains about having to rescue their meals, which makes him feel 00:11:22.309 --> 00:11:24.649 important while making her feel useless. 00:11:24.912 --> 00:11:28.362 . He created that scenario with his criticism so that he could run in 00:11:28.362 --> 00:11:33.242 there and rescue and be the hero and now seek validation for that, which is 00:11:33.252 --> 00:11:34.822 only going to make her feel even worse. 00:11:35.262 --> 00:11:37.422 Or I think of an example with money. 00:11:37.697 --> 00:11:41.997 Where there was a wife who then took control of all the finances and she 00:11:42.037 --> 00:11:46.487 did everything she could to, I want to say, make her husband feel stupid. 00:11:46.487 --> 00:11:48.567 He definitely felt stupid for every purchase that he 00:11:48.567 --> 00:11:50.277 suggested or that he even made. 00:11:50.637 --> 00:11:54.327 So eventually he stops making any money decisions at all, believing 00:11:54.327 --> 00:11:55.937 that he can't trust his own judgment. 00:11:55.957 --> 00:11:59.517 And now she feels like, see, aren't you glad that I have now in 00:11:59.517 --> 00:12:01.787 charge of the finances because you can't even make up your own mind. 00:12:01.807 --> 00:12:04.757 Well, he can, but if he does, it is this attack surface. 00:12:05.542 --> 00:12:07.122 He is going to be criticized for it. 00:12:07.482 --> 00:12:10.022 That is how she's going to feel like she exists. 00:12:10.522 --> 00:12:14.432 Sometimes it shows up as one spouse playing a protector. 00:12:14.882 --> 00:12:16.822 Think of a husband who convinces his wife that she's really 00:12:16.822 --> 00:12:18.302 awkward in social situations. 00:12:18.722 --> 00:12:22.602 And so he needs to be able to guide her to help her navigate them. 00:12:22.982 --> 00:12:24.432 And unfortunately, this one's all too common. 00:12:24.892 --> 00:12:27.532 So then he'll point out to her the, Hey, here's your mistakes after 00:12:27.532 --> 00:12:30.712 get togethers with other people until over time where she's been 00:12:30.712 --> 00:12:32.692 interacting as a human her entire life. 00:12:33.002 --> 00:12:35.532 But now she's kind of afraid to talk to anybody without him there. 00:12:36.262 --> 00:12:39.772 Or, there's an example of a wife who positions herself as her husband's 00:12:39.772 --> 00:12:44.742 career guru and she was taking credit of everything when things went well, but 00:12:44.742 --> 00:12:46.492 then if they didn't, then would blame him. 00:12:46.532 --> 00:12:47.922 Well, I didn't suggest that. 00:12:48.302 --> 00:12:51.472 See, every time you try to do things on your own, look what happens. 00:12:51.822 --> 00:12:54.892 So he ends up feeling like he can't make any work decisions without her approval. 00:12:55.662 --> 00:12:58.292 Or one that I like to call the perfect family act. 00:12:58.897 --> 00:13:02.297 So picture a husband who's always posting perfect family photos online, gets all 00:13:02.297 --> 00:13:06.717 the praise for being such a great dad, while at home, he is a train wreck. 00:13:06.727 --> 00:13:09.637 He's constantly criticizing his wife's parenting, he's criticizing 00:13:09.637 --> 00:13:12.817 the kids, she starts doubting herself even though she's a really good mom. 00:13:13.317 --> 00:13:16.377 Or the wife who makes sure that everybody sees her as the super mom, 00:13:16.647 --> 00:13:19.867 while subtly undermining everything that her husband does or says in parenting. 00:13:20.317 --> 00:13:21.047 So then what does he do? 00:13:21.302 --> 00:13:23.722 He's going to gradually back away from making any decisions about 00:13:23.722 --> 00:13:26.522 the kids because he already knows he's going to do it wrong, but she 00:13:26.522 --> 00:13:27.952 will often ask him for his opinion. 00:13:28.322 --> 00:13:32.262 And then he will then just say I don't know, whatever you think, where then it 00:13:32.262 --> 00:13:36.362 just further validates her as the only one that really cares about the kids. 00:13:36.942 --> 00:13:38.852 He just feels like he will never be good enough. 00:13:39.392 --> 00:13:42.622 But in both of those cases, the kids learn to navigate the whole 00:13:42.822 --> 00:13:46.572 situation, this whole confusing world of adulthood, where what looks like 00:13:46.602 --> 00:13:50.807 perfect on the outside, Then can feel absolutely painful on the inside. 00:13:50.827 --> 00:13:55.117 And that is normal, but that's what they're seeing because in all these 00:13:55.117 --> 00:13:58.887 situations, one person builds themselves up again, by slowly tearing the partner 00:13:58.887 --> 00:14:03.087 down, , you are watching somebody's confidences get chipped away piece by 00:14:03.087 --> 00:14:08.067 piece, but then this narcissistic person actually gets stronger from each chip 00:14:08.087 --> 00:14:11.677 they take, as if they're eating these chips to then make them become stronger. 00:14:12.847 --> 00:14:13.307 Hey, everybody. 00:14:13.307 --> 00:14:15.067 Welcome back to the podcast. 00:14:15.067 --> 00:14:17.837 Even though if you are listening, actually, if you're watching on YouTube as 00:14:17.837 --> 00:14:20.367 well, you never went anywhere, but I did. 00:14:20.417 --> 00:14:23.367 I went from my office in Arizona to my office in California. 00:14:23.367 --> 00:14:26.877 So if you're watching on YouTube or listening to the audio version of the 00:14:26.877 --> 00:14:31.607 podcast, I wanted to make sense of why the microphones no doubt sound different. 00:14:31.607 --> 00:14:33.677 But also here's something that's a little bit embarrassing. 00:14:34.097 --> 00:14:39.807 I thought it would be clever because of the continuity from one Seen to the next 00:14:39.817 --> 00:14:44.427 that I am wearing the same shirt and yes, that is the same shirt as yesterday. 00:14:44.687 --> 00:14:49.667 So shout out to who I wish was a sponsor, Buttercloth Shirts, because you can 00:14:49.667 --> 00:14:51.587 wear them more than one day in a row. 00:14:52.097 --> 00:14:54.037 And I will not take that out of the podcast. 00:14:54.547 --> 00:14:57.627 But if you see in the background, then yeah, that's 00:14:57.647 --> 00:14:59.097 this is the California office. 00:14:59.187 --> 00:15:02.797 And maybe another reason to go subscribe to the YouTube channel and watch the 00:15:02.797 --> 00:15:04.757 video on YouTube, because I will not. 00:15:05.107 --> 00:15:08.707 I'm going to share with you what is in my background, because that is not a 00:15:08.707 --> 00:15:10.437 normal thing in a therapist's background. 00:15:10.747 --> 00:15:14.837 And if you comment in the comments, and maybe the first person that tells me 00:15:14.837 --> 00:15:19.337 what that actually is, and then reach out to me through a direct message, I'll 00:15:19.357 --> 00:15:21.197 send you a virtual couch sweatshirt. 00:15:22.117 --> 00:15:23.027 But back to the episode. 00:15:23.247 --> 00:15:26.457 Let's talk about the concepts around the one up and one down 00:15:26.457 --> 00:15:31.537 dynamic, because I mention people in narcissistic relationships continually 00:15:31.537 --> 00:15:33.337 falling into that one down position. 00:15:33.817 --> 00:15:36.097 Which then the narcissist or the emotionally immature jumps 00:15:36.097 --> 00:15:37.407 up into that one up position. 00:15:37.757 --> 00:15:39.317 Let's go into some more detail on that. 00:15:39.327 --> 00:15:45.217 The concept of the one up, one down is used often by a regular guest 00:15:45.217 --> 00:15:47.947 of the podcast, one of my favorite therapists, Jennifer Finliss in Fife, 00:15:48.347 --> 00:15:52.337 who I know has brought that into her work from some of the work of 00:15:52.337 --> 00:15:57.497 David Schnarsh, who I now absolutely am somewhat obsessed with his work. 00:15:57.987 --> 00:16:02.492 And I did a little digging on the internet to find that the concept of one 00:16:02.492 --> 00:16:06.312 up, one down dynamics in relationships was probably most notably explored 00:16:06.312 --> 00:16:08.242 by a psychiatrist named Eric Byrne. 00:16:08.552 --> 00:16:13.692 And he's did some amazing work that he calls the transactional analysis model. 00:16:14.072 --> 00:16:19.087 And then, also, Later it was expanded by Stephen Karpman, and Karpman has a concept 00:16:19.087 --> 00:16:23.447 called the Karpman Drama Triangle, and that shows that in these kind of dynamics, 00:16:23.487 --> 00:16:28.127 where there, there is immaturity, or there is narcissism, , or in most 00:16:28.127 --> 00:16:31.347 relationship dynamics, there tends to be three characters that come to life, the 00:16:31.357 --> 00:16:34.212 victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer. 00:16:34.642 --> 00:16:37.132 And I can't say that I've done an episode about the Cartman drama 00:16:37.132 --> 00:16:38.452 triangle and waking up to narcissism. 00:16:38.462 --> 00:16:39.782 So I'm going to make note of that. 00:16:39.802 --> 00:16:42.662 And I think we'll do one of those with regard to narcissism and emotional 00:16:42.662 --> 00:16:47.732 immaturity soon, because I think it fits perfectly into the interactions 00:16:47.732 --> 00:16:51.332 when you have a narcissist or emotionally immature person in the mix. 00:16:51.342 --> 00:16:53.472 Let's talk more about the one up, one down dynamic. 00:16:53.742 --> 00:16:57.922 So think of these relationships like a see saw, where when one person pushes 00:16:57.922 --> 00:16:59.822 up, then the other naturally goes down. 00:16:59.832 --> 00:17:03.332 Well, in healthy relationships, the see saw stays pretty balanced, 00:17:03.392 --> 00:17:04.882 and both people are taking turns. 00:17:05.302 --> 00:17:06.202 A good turn taking. 00:17:06.502 --> 00:17:09.772 Something that happens as you become more emotionally mature, even as a kid. 00:17:10.232 --> 00:17:11.692 And they are supporting each other. 00:17:11.812 --> 00:17:15.602 So now we're starting to get toward the mutual reciprocity in a relationship. 00:17:16.147 --> 00:17:20.227 But in unhealthy relationships, one person constantly tries to stay on top, and 00:17:20.227 --> 00:17:21.537 they leave the other stuck at the bottom. 00:17:22.147 --> 00:17:24.997 And you might see this play out in daily life in a couple of different ways. 00:17:25.017 --> 00:17:27.457 One, let's say that a husband always has to one up his wife's 00:17:27.457 --> 00:17:28.457 stories at dinner parties. 00:17:28.457 --> 00:17:31.427 So if she talks about a tough day at work, you probably see where this is going. 00:17:31.447 --> 00:17:33.297 He jumps in with, well let me tell you about my day. 00:17:33.387 --> 00:17:34.427 My day's even, harder. 00:17:34.787 --> 00:17:37.657 And if she shares a success, then he, immediately follows up with 00:17:37.657 --> 00:17:38.917 some bigger achievement of his. 00:17:38.917 --> 00:17:40.677 And it doesn't have to be something in the present day. 00:17:40.977 --> 00:17:43.957 This is where we can go back and tell you all about my high school trophies. 00:17:44.487 --> 00:17:46.887 You see this happen with kids and teenagers. 00:17:46.887 --> 00:17:49.637 And if somebody is talking about their accomplishments at school, a 00:17:49.637 --> 00:17:52.567 parent will often jump in and say, man, I was really good at math. 00:17:52.567 --> 00:17:55.567 Or did I ever tell you about the time I scored 30 points where 00:17:55.567 --> 00:17:57.497 the kids are thinking, man, you've told me a whole bunch. 00:17:57.517 --> 00:18:00.567 And it actually started with 20 and then it got to 25 and 30. 00:18:00.567 --> 00:18:02.637 I can't wait to hear where this goes when I have kids. 00:18:03.572 --> 00:18:07.232 But over time the person that is being put in that one down position 00:18:07.582 --> 00:18:10.282 starts to share less and less because they start to feel like their 00:18:10.282 --> 00:18:11.702 experiences really don't matter. 00:18:12.402 --> 00:18:17.442 And if it sounds familiar to the tit for tat, I think it's because it is. 00:18:17.452 --> 00:18:21.172 I think it's another key to why our unhealthy ways that we show 00:18:21.172 --> 00:18:23.662 up in relationships and relating to others and even to ourselves 00:18:23.682 --> 00:18:25.242 is rooted in our immaturity. 00:18:25.252 --> 00:18:28.712 It's literally an immature way to, to communicate. 00:18:29.427 --> 00:18:32.807 Only the narcissist, now, when they become adults, can sound more 00:18:32.807 --> 00:18:36.597 confident or convincing, or they're really good at finding ways to 00:18:36.597 --> 00:18:37.947 slip into that one up position. 00:18:38.672 --> 00:18:42.532 And they become very convincing when they are throwing out their tip to 00:18:42.532 --> 00:18:45.602 the point where you don't even feel like tatting, man, have you ever said 00:18:45.602 --> 00:18:47.952 something that in the very moment that you're saying it, you're thinking I'm 00:18:47.952 --> 00:18:49.302 onto something, this could be gold. 00:18:49.302 --> 00:18:52.042 But then when it's out of your mouth they can't all be home runs. 00:18:52.312 --> 00:18:56.192 When I was literally right then saying, throwing out there, the tip or tap anyway, 00:18:56.712 --> 00:19:00.562 . So here's one that I think I can channel so many examples of this, but one that 00:19:00.562 --> 00:19:05.202 I saw recently, imagine a mom who always positions herself as the better parent. 00:19:05.222 --> 00:19:07.972 So when dad suggests a way to handle their teenager's behavior, 00:19:08.562 --> 00:19:10.442 she dismisses his idea immediately. 00:19:10.662 --> 00:19:13.882 It's almost like reflexive or impulsive, and she proves why her 00:19:13.882 --> 00:19:15.642 approach is so much more superior. 00:19:16.112 --> 00:19:16.892 So eventually, he 00:19:16.892 --> 00:19:17.232 stops 00:19:17.232 --> 00:19:20.882 making suggestions altogether, because he feels like his parenting instincts must 00:19:20.892 --> 00:19:24.252 be wrong, because every time he brings something up, and literally every time, 00:19:24.252 --> 00:19:29.232 and I'm not a big all or nothing guy, But it is put down and viewed as crazy, even 00:19:29.232 --> 00:19:31.612 though other times it isn't so crazy. 00:19:31.862 --> 00:19:36.392 So the very fact that Dad tried to parent, gave the wife in this situation, her 00:19:36.402 --> 00:19:42.022 attack surface that she needed in order to for her to now, in that very moment, 00:19:42.162 --> 00:19:46.262 seize onto a way to feel like she exists, like she matters, like she has a purpose, 00:19:46.262 --> 00:19:50.372 and that purpose is, I can prove that my husband is a bad parent, and I am the 00:19:50.372 --> 00:19:54.162 good parent, and who cares if it's in front of the kids, that will then someday, 00:19:54.202 --> 00:19:57.867 even maybe by this afternoon or evening, Use this very argument that we're having 00:19:57.897 --> 00:20:01.757 in front of them against both of us by validating the more immature parent, 00:20:01.857 --> 00:20:03.677 the mom, to get more of what they want. 00:20:03.697 --> 00:20:05.677 Man, mom, I love the way you handled that. 00:20:05.677 --> 00:20:06.297 You're the best. 00:20:06.567 --> 00:20:08.997 Or then criticize the parent that was just put in the one down 00:20:08.997 --> 00:20:13.007 position in this scenario, dad, to once again, get what they want. 00:20:13.437 --> 00:20:16.837 But back to the mom, she matters in this very moment. 00:20:17.247 --> 00:20:18.497 And it's all about this moment. 00:20:18.727 --> 00:20:21.477 Thank you dad for trying to parent because now I can finally have something 00:20:21.627 --> 00:20:25.537 I can use to put you down and pick me up and then you will now be required to 00:20:25.537 --> 00:20:29.947 go along with my nay, even validate me as the better parent and take ownership 00:20:29.947 --> 00:20:33.667 of your very bad attempt at parenting and and kids, kids, take a look. 00:20:33.907 --> 00:20:36.537 Aren't you also glad that I'm here to rescue you from that 00:20:36.537 --> 00:20:38.717 horrible parenting that your father just tried to pull on you. 00:20:38.987 --> 00:20:40.327 Do your homework before bed. 00:20:40.347 --> 00:20:41.317 What was this man thinking? 00:20:41.317 --> 00:20:43.117 You guys have had an incredibly tough day. 00:20:43.487 --> 00:20:45.237 Sometimes you kids just need to go to bed. 00:20:45.727 --> 00:20:45.987 Now. 00:20:46.677 --> 00:20:49.727 None of this will be relevant tomorrow night when I, emotionally 00:20:49.727 --> 00:20:52.797 immature mom, is not feeling good about myself and dad is working late. 00:20:52.817 --> 00:20:55.107 No, no, that will be entirely different. 00:20:55.127 --> 00:20:58.007 And you most certainly will need to do your homework before you go to bed. 00:20:58.277 --> 00:20:59.117 What are you even thinking? 00:20:59.137 --> 00:21:00.987 What kind of loony bin do you think that I'm running here? 00:21:01.317 --> 00:21:02.007 But that'll be different. 00:21:02.067 --> 00:21:02.417 How? 00:21:02.737 --> 00:21:03.347 That's irrelevant. 00:21:03.527 --> 00:21:04.897 You'll have to stay tuned to find out. 00:21:05.187 --> 00:21:06.817 And husband, just you wait. 00:21:06.897 --> 00:21:09.767 You will come home from your hard day tomorrow and I'll tell 00:21:09.767 --> 00:21:10.997 you how naughty those kids were. 00:21:11.017 --> 00:21:13.387 And you'll say, why, what did they do? 00:21:13.417 --> 00:21:16.287 And I'll tell you, can you believe they weren't wanting to 00:21:16.287 --> 00:21:17.797 do their homework before bedtime? 00:21:18.347 --> 00:21:21.827 And you'll look confused, sure, but you better not say a word, or there 00:21:21.827 --> 00:21:24.967 will be absolutely zero chance of physical intimacy this evening. 00:21:24.967 --> 00:21:28.347 So you then will say, Do you want me to go wake those kids up? 00:21:28.397 --> 00:21:31.617 Have them scrub the bathroom floors with a toothbrush until they, Until they shine 00:21:31.617 --> 00:21:32.707 like the top of the Chrysler building? 00:21:32.707 --> 00:21:35.757 Because yes, I just referenced the movie Annie, your favorite dear wife, because 00:21:35.767 --> 00:21:38.917 you identify with Annie, Even though you grew up in an affluent neighborhood in 00:21:38.917 --> 00:21:40.197 the foothills of the Salt Lake Valley. 00:21:40.207 --> 00:21:42.737 But I will now tell you that I don't know how you do it. 00:21:43.497 --> 00:21:46.487 Despite the fact that I just got home after a 16 hour stressful 00:21:46.487 --> 00:21:49.967 day, but when you asked me how my day was, with the, I went with the 00:21:49.967 --> 00:21:51.587 requisite, it was fine, it was good. 00:21:51.717 --> 00:21:52.447 No, it was really good. 00:21:53.017 --> 00:21:56.007 Because, actually, if I try and share anything with you, you will either A. 00:21:56.177 --> 00:21:57.967 Not respond at all, or B. 00:21:58.027 --> 00:22:00.787 Tell me that I could have done whatever I did better, even though I don't think 00:22:00.787 --> 00:22:02.437 you truly even know what I do every day. 00:22:02.977 --> 00:22:05.437 But I just know that if you did know, you would think that 00:22:05.437 --> 00:22:07.167 you could do it better than me. 00:22:07.877 --> 00:22:08.607 End scene. 00:22:09.632 --> 00:22:12.162 Okay, I didn't actually see that one coming either, but what makes this 00:22:12.162 --> 00:22:15.672 pattern so damaging is how it slowly reshapes people's sense of worth. 00:22:16.272 --> 00:22:18.682 The person in the one down position starts to believe that they really 00:22:18.682 --> 00:22:22.132 are less capable or less intelligent or less valuable, or most definitely 00:22:22.132 --> 00:22:23.582 that their opinion does not matter. 00:22:23.772 --> 00:22:27.572 Meanwhile, the person maintaining the one up position becomes more dependent on 00:22:27.582 --> 00:22:32.072 keeping others beneath them to feel good about themselves, to know that they exist. 00:22:32.072 --> 00:22:35.802 It's like they can only feel tall by making everybody else feel small. 00:22:36.502 --> 00:22:39.802 And Julie Hall mentions in her article that To the Narcissist life is a 00:22:39.802 --> 00:22:43.462 zero sum game, where there's only a fixed amount of worth or success 00:22:43.582 --> 00:22:47.092 or credit or anything available. 00:22:47.422 --> 00:22:51.652 So if somebody gets credit or success or attention or validation, then it 00:22:51.692 --> 00:22:53.382 must come to a detriment to them. 00:22:54.127 --> 00:22:56.817 If you have an opinion, you must think that the narcissist doesn't have one. 00:22:56.817 --> 00:22:59.437 So they'll show you that they do, and put you in the one down position. 00:22:59.887 --> 00:23:02.537 If you are receiving praise, then that means that they are not, and they 00:23:02.537 --> 00:23:06.067 would like to make sure that they get that praise before all of the praise 00:23:06.067 --> 00:23:07.647 is evaporated from the very ether. 00:23:07.983 --> 00:23:11.163 I always like a good pie a good chocolate cream pie, maybe a chocolate 00:23:11.163 --> 00:23:14.233 silk, but so why not a pie analogy? 00:23:14.593 --> 00:23:18.213 So if you think of it like a pie in a healthy relationship people 00:23:18.213 --> 00:23:19.523 know they can make more pies. 00:23:19.823 --> 00:23:23.113 Success for one person does not take away from another, but to the 00:23:23.113 --> 00:23:24.913 narcissist, they just see one pie. 00:23:25.083 --> 00:23:27.903 So if their partner gets a bigger slice, like receiving praise or 00:23:27.903 --> 00:23:30.973 attention or validation, then they feel like they are losing their share, 00:23:31.033 --> 00:23:33.943 and that's why they constantly work to maintain that one up position. 00:23:34.283 --> 00:23:38.403 Because they have to take all the rest of the pie, and it is a zero sum game. 00:23:38.413 --> 00:23:41.763 So they need more pie in order to know that they are better 00:23:41.793 --> 00:23:44.133 than you, and that they are okay. 00:23:44.633 --> 00:23:47.733 Other examples, when a spouse shares good news about a promotion instead 00:23:47.733 --> 00:23:50.373 of celebrating, they might subtly undermine it and say things like, 00:23:50.373 --> 00:23:52.793 Oh, they must have been pretty desperate for somebody, or, I mean, 00:23:53.133 --> 00:23:54.873 be honest, could anybody do that job? 00:23:55.333 --> 00:23:58.413 Because every interaction then becomes about maintaining that larger slice of the 00:23:58.413 --> 00:24:00.903 pie by making others slices feel smaller. 00:24:01.603 --> 00:24:05.893 And they can't feel like success until somebody else feels like a failure, 00:24:05.953 --> 00:24:07.323 black or white, all or nothing. 00:24:07.353 --> 00:24:09.543 Can't feel smart until somebody else feels stupid. 00:24:09.553 --> 00:24:11.993 They can't feel important unless somebody else feels insignificant. 00:24:12.463 --> 00:24:14.953 Let me take some time and go back through Julie Hall's 00:24:14.963 --> 00:24:16.993 article, and I want to read it. 00:24:17.003 --> 00:24:19.573 It's fairly short, but it just had so much good information. 00:24:19.573 --> 00:24:22.523 I'll provide a little more insight than I did on the previous episode. 00:24:22.993 --> 00:24:26.443 She says that humans are highly social, collaborative species with 00:24:26.503 --> 00:24:28.863 intricately complex interdependency. 00:24:29.533 --> 00:24:30.923 She said, we raise children together. 00:24:30.923 --> 00:24:33.553 We work together, we learn together, we eat together, we play together. 00:24:33.583 --> 00:24:34.853 And then the list goes on and on. 00:24:35.123 --> 00:24:39.033 And the glue that bonds us is our common capacity and desire for attachment. 00:24:39.433 --> 00:24:42.133 This drive to connect and to share and protect and care. 00:24:42.573 --> 00:24:46.153 But then she lays out what just drew me in antagonistic attachment. 00:24:46.623 --> 00:24:50.723 So she talks about how securely attached humans approach relationships as a 00:24:51.093 --> 00:24:53.823 cooperative activity, very cooperatively. 00:24:54.153 --> 00:24:55.983 They work together to achieve shared goals. 00:24:56.223 --> 00:24:58.203 They seek and they give empathetic validation. 00:24:58.203 --> 00:24:58.933 They share accurate. 00:24:59.528 --> 00:25:00.548 and truthful information. 00:25:01.168 --> 00:25:04.388 Then they express affection and vulnerability to build trust and 00:25:04.398 --> 00:25:05.598 intimacy in the relationships. 00:25:06.108 --> 00:25:09.888 She said there might be conflict, there might be disagreements, but mutual support 00:25:10.258 --> 00:25:13.398 is the foundation of the relationship and respect and love are not at stake. 00:25:13.768 --> 00:25:16.878 And that is so key because to the emotionally immature or 00:25:16.878 --> 00:25:22.788 narcissistic people that are in relationships, then love is at stake. 00:25:22.808 --> 00:25:26.988 They will withdraw love from you at any moment as a form of punishment 00:25:27.018 --> 00:25:28.848 until then you fall back into line. 00:25:29.368 --> 00:25:32.688 She says, by contrast, for the narcissistic personality, attachment 00:25:32.688 --> 00:25:34.228 with others is antagonistic. 00:25:34.748 --> 00:25:38.308 And I love that she points out it's a concept in biology that refers to 00:25:38.308 --> 00:25:42.618 a relationship in which one organism benefits at the expense of another. 00:25:43.178 --> 00:25:47.638 Common forms of antagonism in nature are a thing called predation, there's 00:25:47.638 --> 00:25:51.578 also competition, and then there's parasit and then there's parasitism. 00:25:52.188 --> 00:25:55.708 Let's look at these three dynamics in narcissistic human relationships. 00:25:55.948 --> 00:25:56.498 Predation. 00:25:57.668 --> 00:26:01.848 Julie says a predator typically kills and eats its prey to gain life giving energy. 00:26:02.068 --> 00:26:05.798 In a predatory human relationship, there might be murder, but more 00:26:05.798 --> 00:26:09.378 often, there's a condition of ongoing domination and subjugation. 00:26:09.378 --> 00:26:12.288 And because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for 00:26:12.288 --> 00:26:16.568 dominance, then they emotionally and probably physically and sexually 00:26:16.568 --> 00:26:21.028 oppress and intimidate and violate others to experience and maintain 00:26:21.038 --> 00:26:22.608 feelings of power and control. 00:26:23.558 --> 00:26:26.628 She goes on to say that Narcissistic displays of dominance may be flagrant 00:26:26.628 --> 00:26:31.108 forms of aggression such as hitting, pushing, berating, name calling, playing 00:26:31.108 --> 00:26:35.228 favorites, critiquing, and monologuing, or there might be more passive aggressive 00:26:35.228 --> 00:26:39.228 maneuvers like just outright dismissal, giving the silent treatment, backhanded 00:26:39.228 --> 00:26:43.898 compliments quote, joking barbs, veiled threats, and then triangulation. 00:26:44.608 --> 00:26:47.258 But whatever that strategy is, and however well it's rationalized or 00:26:47.258 --> 00:26:50.768 disguised, the purpose is to bully the other person into submission. 00:26:51.498 --> 00:26:53.918 So I wanted to come up with some examples of what this looks 00:26:53.918 --> 00:26:55.528 like in everyday relationships. 00:26:55.988 --> 00:26:59.928 So a husband berates his wife's appearance every morning, telling her that she looks 00:26:59.928 --> 00:27:03.948 sloppy, or she looks unprofessional, or she looks like a little bloated. 00:27:04.598 --> 00:27:07.528 And at family dinners, maybe he monopolizes conversations, talking 00:27:07.548 --> 00:27:11.318 endlessly about his achievements and then cutting off other people, truly showing 00:27:11.318 --> 00:27:16.991 that if you are talking, I don't really understand why we're continuing to Or a 00:27:16.991 --> 00:27:20.451 mom openly favors one child, giving them special privileges while criticizing 00:27:20.451 --> 00:27:22.031 their siblings for similar behaviors. 00:27:22.511 --> 00:27:26.761 And what's interesting is, in that example, you might see that she believes 00:27:27.431 --> 00:27:32.311 that by building this one child up, that it not only makes her feel better about 00:27:32.311 --> 00:27:37.276 a mom, Because she obviously played a great role in the success of this child, 00:27:37.716 --> 00:27:41.836 but then she somehow thinks that she's now motivating the others to try to be 00:27:41.836 --> 00:27:46.706 like this child, and she's removing her own responsibility as a mom out of the 00:27:46.706 --> 00:27:48.566 equation, because, look, I've done it. 00:27:48.626 --> 00:27:49.826 This person is perfect. 00:27:49.856 --> 00:27:54.186 That's why the narcissist we'll typically find this golden child 00:27:54.486 --> 00:27:58.986 because then they say, see, I am good, this works, you guys are responsible 00:27:58.986 --> 00:28:01.816 for yourselves, I have already done this amazing, wonderful thing. 00:28:01.816 --> 00:28:06.006 The passive aggressive tactics are some of the things that just lead to these 00:28:06.706 --> 00:28:10.556 death by a thousand cuts, which is actually the episode coming up next week. 00:28:11.386 --> 00:28:13.866 But a wife responds to her husband's work promotion with, well, I guess 00:28:13.866 --> 00:28:16.536 they really do need people, and then gives him the silent treatment 00:28:16.536 --> 00:28:17.406 when he wants to celebrate. 00:28:17.966 --> 00:28:21.476 She makes sure that if we are here to celebrate you, we go back 00:28:21.476 --> 00:28:25.156 to that zero sum game, then that means we're not celebrating me, and 00:28:25.156 --> 00:28:29.296 there's only a limited amount of celebration existing in the world, 00:28:29.296 --> 00:28:31.036 and I don't want to waste it on you. 00:28:31.776 --> 00:28:35.306 Or a father tells his teenage daughter, Yeah, I'm just joking, after making 00:28:35.356 --> 00:28:38.306 cutting remarks about her weight, and then texts other family members 00:28:38.316 --> 00:28:39.936 about how she's been really sensitive. 00:28:39.936 --> 00:28:43.316 Nobody mentioned that she looks a little bit heavy in the Christmas 00:28:43.316 --> 00:28:44.876 photo, because she's going to freak out. 00:28:45.876 --> 00:28:48.426 And these are unfortunately based off of real stories. 00:28:48.966 --> 00:28:52.776 A mother in law tells her daughter in law, you're so brave to wear that dress 00:28:52.896 --> 00:28:57.076 at your size, and then immediately turns to compliment somebody else's outfit. 00:28:57.856 --> 00:29:00.356 Because in all these cases, there's a pattern that the narcissist 00:29:00.376 --> 00:29:04.256 maintains control by making others feel small or uncertain. 00:29:05.136 --> 00:29:08.286 When called out, then they'll say, you're too sensitive, or I was just trying 00:29:08.286 --> 00:29:09.456 to help, or I didn't really mean it. 00:29:09.456 --> 00:29:13.046 But the real goal is keeping others off balance and feeling inferior. 00:29:13.396 --> 00:29:15.886 And whether it's through obvious aggression or these subtle digs, 00:29:16.176 --> 00:29:17.956 they're working to maintain their position of power. 00:29:18.426 --> 00:29:22.106 And I think the scariest part is how these behaviors then just escalate 00:29:22.106 --> 00:29:24.446 so slowly, this gradual build up. 00:29:24.956 --> 00:29:28.596 Because what starts as what might even sound like some occasional 00:29:28.616 --> 00:29:32.491 helpful criticism, gradually just becomes constant put downs. 00:29:32.901 --> 00:29:37.481 And that's part of what creates the trauma bond, because now, the person 00:29:37.481 --> 00:29:40.761 that is continually receiving these put downs might every now and again 00:29:40.761 --> 00:29:44.261 get a breadcrumb or a scrap of a compliment, and that feels so good, 00:29:44.351 --> 00:29:47.271 that now they're gonna chase that like a drug addict, from that point forward. 00:29:47.991 --> 00:29:50.551 The person on that receiving end might not even notice how much they've 00:29:50.551 --> 00:29:54.041 started walking on eggshells, changing their behaviors just to avoid these 00:29:54.041 --> 00:29:57.301 interactions, or to get the validation from the emotionally immature. 00:29:57.444 --> 00:30:00.794 Julie says that competition is another type of relational antagonism 00:30:00.794 --> 00:30:03.584 characteristic of narcissism because narcissists approach 00:30:03.584 --> 00:30:05.054 relationships oppositionally. 00:30:05.114 --> 00:30:07.874 They view other people, including and often especially their family 00:30:08.474 --> 00:30:11.174 and even more so the person they interact with the most. 00:30:11.184 --> 00:30:14.424 So their spouse, their partner as competitors for resources. 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.159 So those resources may be tangible things, but often they're intangible 00:30:18.159 --> 00:30:21.969 or interpersonal resources, such as attention, acknowledgement, inclusion, 00:30:21.969 --> 00:30:23.669 respect, admiration, and affection. 00:30:24.449 --> 00:30:27.759 And this is where that concept of seeing life as a zero sum game comes into play. 00:30:28.109 --> 00:30:31.169 Because if you see life as a zero sum game, where you can only win if somebody 00:30:31.169 --> 00:30:34.869 else is, if somebody else loses, then a narcissist is going to continually 00:30:34.869 --> 00:30:38.269 work to undermine and one up everybody around them, while asserting their 00:30:38.269 --> 00:30:42.249 superiority and then feeling like they have this greater sense of entitlement. 00:30:43.109 --> 00:30:46.469 And then, typically, competitive narcissistic behaviors within families 00:30:46.469 --> 00:30:50.939 and other social groups include things like comparing, and insert social media 00:30:50.939 --> 00:30:55.689 comment here, bragging, over talking, blaming, cheating, exaggerating, 00:30:55.999 --> 00:30:59.199 diminishing, excluding, applying double standards, distorting and withholding 00:30:59.199 --> 00:31:01.859 information, and also taking undue credit. 00:31:02.669 --> 00:31:05.829 So let me give some examples of how that narcissistic competition plays 00:31:05.829 --> 00:31:09.899 out in real family settings, all based off of, unfortunately, real stories. 00:31:10.419 --> 00:31:13.029 Imagine a family dinner where a father can't let his son share 00:31:13.029 --> 00:31:14.139 good news without topping it. 00:31:14.939 --> 00:31:17.539 This one I hear so often, and I know that this is in my more 00:31:17.539 --> 00:31:18.749 emotionally immature days. 00:31:18.749 --> 00:31:25.009 I wanted to, if my son shared an achievement in sports, I did think, 00:31:25.059 --> 00:31:27.549 Oh, I've got an example of something I can share with him, and then he 00:31:27.549 --> 00:31:30.644 will think, Man, my dad was really amazing, but what I'm doing is 00:31:30.644 --> 00:31:32.264 taking away from his experience. 00:31:33.084 --> 00:31:37.254 So in this scenario, and if a son talks about making a basketball team, 00:31:37.254 --> 00:31:39.804 dad launches into stories about, well, I was actually the team captain. 00:31:40.664 --> 00:31:43.954 The next day, then dad tells relatives a very highly exaggerated version, 00:31:43.964 --> 00:31:47.114 making his son's achievement sound very minor, while painting himself 00:31:47.114 --> 00:31:48.524 as a real athlete in the family. 00:31:48.584 --> 00:31:52.514 I go continually back to the Napoleon Dynamite character of Uncle Rico, 00:31:52.514 --> 00:31:55.324 and let me show you how I can throw a football over that mountain. 00:31:55.574 --> 00:31:57.724 And we would have won state had not fill in the blanks. 00:31:58.254 --> 00:32:00.764 Or picture a mom who constantly compares her daughters. 00:32:01.144 --> 00:32:04.644 When one gets an A on a test, instead of Prey, she says, That's so wild, your 00:32:04.644 --> 00:32:07.774 sister always got like an A I don't know if she really ever got one wrong. 00:32:07.994 --> 00:32:09.384 But I mean, an A's not bad. 00:32:09.934 --> 00:32:11.614 But she really didn't study either. 00:32:12.294 --> 00:32:15.414 Or during family events, she'll talk over one daughter's stories while showcasing 00:32:15.424 --> 00:32:16.614 another daughter's accomplishments. 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.209 And if something goes wrong, she's quick to blame the less favored child, 00:32:20.249 --> 00:32:21.689 even if it's clearly not their fault. 00:32:22.309 --> 00:32:24.559 And you see this play out in the workplace, too. 00:32:24.569 --> 00:32:27.739 A narcissistic co worker might take credit for team projects they barely worked on. 00:32:28.099 --> 00:32:30.449 They'll withhold important information from colleagues, and they'll swoop 00:32:30.449 --> 00:32:32.009 in as the hero who saves the day. 00:32:32.609 --> 00:32:34.069 It's just business, after all. 00:32:34.779 --> 00:32:37.849 And if somebody else succeeds, they'll spread little doubts or rumors 00:32:37.849 --> 00:32:39.089 about how that person achieved it. 00:32:39.509 --> 00:32:40.649 Well, you know who their uncle is. 00:32:40.649 --> 00:32:41.449 They are in corporate. 00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:45.079 Or, yeah, I think that they've been using a lot of artificial intelligence lately. 00:32:45.384 --> 00:32:49.074 Which, by the way, is projection, because the person saying that, in that 00:32:49.094 --> 00:32:53.014 scenario, was found out to be using nothing but artificial intelligence. 00:32:53.704 --> 00:32:56.214 But in each case, the narcissist sees every situation as a 00:32:56.214 --> 00:32:57.424 contest that they have to win. 00:32:57.734 --> 00:33:00.214 They can't celebrate other successes, because that means that, 00:33:00.504 --> 00:33:01.854 that will mean that they lost. 00:33:02.424 --> 00:33:05.514 And it's exhausting for everybody involved, because you just 00:33:05.514 --> 00:33:08.394 feel like you're constantly in competition that you never even 00:33:08.394 --> 00:33:09.724 signed up for, and you can't win. 00:33:10.224 --> 00:33:14.314 If you talk about running a 5k over the weekend, then the person's like, 00:33:14.324 --> 00:33:15.774 Oh, 5k, all those are adorable. 00:33:15.774 --> 00:33:18.104 I remember doing those back before I started running marathons. 00:33:18.261 --> 00:33:20.021 And let's talk about parasitism. 00:33:20.531 --> 00:33:25.021 Parasitism is another common relational dynamic in the narcissistic personality's 00:33:25.021 --> 00:33:26.411 antagonistic style of attachment. 00:33:26.951 --> 00:33:30.831 And I think it's perhaps the worst of the three that Julie 00:33:30.831 --> 00:33:31.951 Hall mentions in her article. 00:33:32.781 --> 00:33:35.631 Because a parasite feeds off of a host organism to the host 00:33:35.631 --> 00:33:39.361 detriment and it causes depletion and disease and often death. 00:33:40.111 --> 00:33:43.881 So between humans, parasitism shows up as exploitation in relationships. 00:33:44.466 --> 00:33:48.686 Usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person. 00:33:49.166 --> 00:33:51.276 And let's talk about coercion. 00:33:51.886 --> 00:33:55.286 So coercion is a concept that I would love for you to be very 00:33:55.286 --> 00:33:59.356 familiar with because there are a lot of changes in laws in the U. 00:33:59.356 --> 00:33:59.606 S. 00:33:59.606 --> 00:34:01.916 around the concept of coercive control. 00:34:02.656 --> 00:34:06.446 So coercion is the act of using force or threats to make somebody do something 00:34:06.446 --> 00:34:07.656 that they wouldn't otherwise do. 00:34:08.026 --> 00:34:11.456 So for example, a bully threatening a kid with a bloody nose to get their 00:34:11.456 --> 00:34:13.246 lunch money is an act of coercion. 00:34:13.776 --> 00:34:17.396 Or, some other examples, if a landlord's forcing a tenant to leave a premises, 00:34:17.396 --> 00:34:21.446 or a lawyer's threatening to fire a, a waiter if they don't rat out their boss, 00:34:21.616 --> 00:34:25.186 but it's threatening harm to somebody if they don't do what you want them to do. 00:34:25.721 --> 00:34:29.181 We often hear about coercion in things like political circles, using 00:34:29.181 --> 00:34:30.671 extreme fear to control people. 00:34:30.991 --> 00:34:34.011 Or, in a criminal case, a defendant can use coercion as a defense if 00:34:34.011 --> 00:34:35.591 they were forced to commit a crime. 00:34:35.591 --> 00:34:38.131 So, for example, if somebody literally holds a gun to your head 00:34:38.131 --> 00:34:41.421 and threatens to kill you, you could use coercion as a defense to 00:34:41.421 --> 00:34:42.851 have an assault charge dismissed. 00:34:43.231 --> 00:34:47.341 And I looked up, and at least I know in California, Coercion, particularly when 00:34:47.341 --> 00:34:51.471 it constitutes a pattern of behavior known as coercive control, is considered 00:34:51.471 --> 00:34:55.441 grounds for a restraining order because it's a legally recognized form of 00:34:55.441 --> 00:34:59.051 domestic violence under California state law, meaning that you can seek a 00:34:59.051 --> 00:35:02.271 restraining order against somebody who's using coercive tactics to control you. 00:35:02.891 --> 00:35:06.131 There's some pretty interesting points as we're learning more about coercive 00:35:06.151 --> 00:35:08.711 control as a form of domestic violence. 00:35:09.131 --> 00:35:13.361 Legal definition in California explicitly includes coercive control 00:35:13.361 --> 00:35:14.561 as a form of domestic violence. 00:35:14.561 --> 00:35:18.091 Examples of coercive control, isolating somebody from friends and family, 00:35:18.331 --> 00:35:22.211 controlling finances, monitoring daily activities, using threats or 00:35:22.211 --> 00:35:23.831 intimidation to manipulate behavior. 00:35:24.541 --> 00:35:29.281 And in order to get this restraining order, if you coercive behavior that 00:35:29.281 --> 00:35:32.821 impacts your safety and well being, you may be able to obtain a restraining 00:35:32.821 --> 00:35:33.931 order against the perpetrator. 00:35:34.386 --> 00:35:39.536 But in, in Julie Hall's article, she talks also about coercing somebody into 00:35:39.536 --> 00:35:44.576 providing ongoing resources such as money, housing, privilege, social standing. 00:35:44.576 --> 00:35:49.446 I have to say intimacy because my daughter who puts these up on YouTube said that 00:35:49.806 --> 00:35:54.986 if I say, and you can say on the internet SEGS, S E G G S, but I think you know 00:35:54.986 --> 00:36:00.366 where I'm going, then apparently that gets you lower in the on the algorithm 00:36:00.416 --> 00:36:05.466 and providing the content to other people but that's one of the most frequent forms 00:36:05.476 --> 00:36:07.986 of coercion that I see in my practice. 00:36:08.476 --> 00:36:11.336 And also, things like caretaking, other forms of service. 00:36:11.956 --> 00:36:15.636 Parasitism is used to render the host easier to exploit. 00:36:16.736 --> 00:36:21.226 And then the narcissist will use tactics like isolation, guilt, seduction, fawning, 00:36:21.246 --> 00:36:24.866 gaslighting, while they also employ forms of intermittent reinforcement. 00:36:25.226 --> 00:36:28.516 That's the concept behind the trauma bond, where the person that's giving 00:36:28.516 --> 00:36:32.936 you the punishment is also delivering you a little bit of the reward, and that 00:36:32.936 --> 00:36:36.826 will start to create this illusion of reciprocity in the relationship no, we're, 00:36:36.866 --> 00:36:40.646 we're give and take, we're in this thing together, but that relationship not only 00:36:40.646 --> 00:36:44.546 drains the host of physical and emotional resources, but it starts to alienate them 00:36:44.566 --> 00:36:49.016 from their own self preserving instincts, their own sense of self and their ability 00:36:49.016 --> 00:36:50.576 to maintain safe personal boundaries. 00:36:51.226 --> 00:36:54.196 So when I talk about that, it's a waste of emotional calories and energy to 00:36:54.196 --> 00:36:56.836 try to worry about what's wrong with you because somebody else has put you 00:36:56.836 --> 00:37:01.816 on this goose chase and said this is all you, that at some point you need to 00:37:01.816 --> 00:37:05.716 understand that you are you and you are doing life the way that you are doing it. 00:37:05.716 --> 00:37:06.676 And that's okay. 00:37:07.186 --> 00:37:09.076 And that that is a them issue. 00:37:09.136 --> 00:37:11.866 If they find what you're doing, fill in the blank. 00:37:12.146 --> 00:37:15.416 That if they have a real challenge with the way that you are doing, you. 00:37:15.916 --> 00:37:19.806 You can think of a narcissistic relationship like a vampire story, 00:37:20.386 --> 00:37:23.536 but instead of the blood that they are wanting, they are draining 00:37:23.536 --> 00:37:24.906 somebody's whole sense of self. 00:37:25.546 --> 00:37:28.646 And here's how it starts to play out, and these are, again, 00:37:28.646 --> 00:37:29.776 based off of real examples. 00:37:29.786 --> 00:37:32.636 A husband might start by isolating his wife, telling her that her friends 00:37:32.636 --> 00:37:35.736 don't really care about her, or they wouldn't have acted that way, or that 00:37:35.736 --> 00:37:39.136 her family, they don't really, they don't really understand our love. 00:37:39.366 --> 00:37:43.346 So when she's feeling alone Then he showers her with attention and praise, 00:37:43.356 --> 00:37:46.036 but just when she starts to feel secure, then he pulls away, leaving her kind 00:37:46.036 --> 00:37:47.306 of desperate for his approval again. 00:37:48.086 --> 00:37:51.436 And then if she questions this pattern, then it'll twist the entire reality. 00:37:51.486 --> 00:37:53.926 Well, you're, I never said that, or you're making things up. 00:37:53.926 --> 00:37:55.616 That's exactly, that's not what's happening actually. 00:37:56.306 --> 00:37:59.706 Or consider a mom who uses guilt to control her adult children. 00:37:59.716 --> 00:38:02.626 One day she's praising them as the only ones who truly love her. 00:38:02.856 --> 00:38:04.986 And the next day she's accusing them of abandoning her. 00:38:05.276 --> 00:38:06.776 You never call, you never write. 00:38:07.331 --> 00:38:10.491 So then she'll create emergencies right before important events in 00:38:10.491 --> 00:38:13.261 their lives, making them choose between their needs and hers. 00:38:13.601 --> 00:38:14.631 This is the ultimate test. 00:38:14.631 --> 00:38:15.621 Will they show up for me? 00:38:16.141 --> 00:38:18.741 And when they do, well, it really wasn't that big of a deal anyway. 00:38:19.591 --> 00:38:20.741 But she'll play the victim. 00:38:21.061 --> 00:38:24.641 If they try to set boundaries, after all, I've sacrificed for you as your mom. 00:38:25.541 --> 00:38:28.081 And what makes this whole thing damaging is how it gradually breaks 00:38:28.081 --> 00:38:31.261 down somebody's ability to trust themselves, trust their gut instinct. 00:38:31.471 --> 00:38:35.406 And the proverbial and slowly heating water. 00:38:35.436 --> 00:38:38.366 They don't notice how they're losing their sense of what's normal and what's healthy. 00:38:38.936 --> 00:38:41.526 And so they start doubting their memories, their feelings, then 00:38:41.526 --> 00:38:42.976 their right to have needs at all. 00:38:43.906 --> 00:38:47.696 And then the narcissist then effectively keeps them off balance just enough 00:38:47.736 --> 00:38:51.666 to stay dependent, but then gives them the occasional breadcrumbs of 00:38:51.696 --> 00:38:56.176 kindness or a little bit of validation, maybe even intimacy to keep them 00:38:56.176 --> 00:38:57.756 hoping that no, things will change. 00:38:57.756 --> 00:38:59.506 They're, they are good at times. 00:39:00.406 --> 00:39:02.546 And Julie calls it hidden abuse. 00:39:03.006 --> 00:39:06.246 She says people who are narcissistic seldom make their antagonism transparent 00:39:06.656 --> 00:39:09.736 for the simple reason that they would suffer consequences if they do. 00:39:10.206 --> 00:39:13.536 And I don't believe that they can see themselves as that bad of a 00:39:13.536 --> 00:39:17.576 person, even if they are doing things that a bad person does. 00:39:18.116 --> 00:39:22.156 So even overt narcissists, who are more brashly superior and more domineering than 00:39:22.176 --> 00:39:26.696 other types, know that they won't get very far in life if they fail to adhere to, or 00:39:26.706 --> 00:39:30.956 more importantly, give the appearance of adhering to, some rules and social norms. 00:39:30.966 --> 00:39:34.386 So sometimes you can box a narcissist in, or train your narcissist 00:39:34.396 --> 00:39:36.756 to know that, well, this isn't getting them what they need. 00:39:37.116 --> 00:39:38.786 So they will learn, they will adapt. 00:39:38.796 --> 00:39:42.386 It's almost like a narcissistic artificial intelligence this learning model. 00:39:42.746 --> 00:39:45.651 They learn that, okay, when I don't do this, Then I get more of 00:39:45.651 --> 00:39:47.941 what I want, or when I say these things, then I get what I want. 00:39:48.541 --> 00:39:50.181 And that's whether it's with acquaintances, or 00:39:50.181 --> 00:39:51.321 friends, or family members. 00:39:51.331 --> 00:39:54.631 So for the narcissist, it becomes something they need to do at all times, 00:39:54.631 --> 00:39:58.461 to mask their own harsh self interest and their contempt for others and 00:39:58.461 --> 00:40:01.221 they need to develop more socially acceptable strategies for getting what 00:40:01.221 --> 00:40:02.851 they want from their relationships. 00:40:03.441 --> 00:40:04.231 So they learn. 00:40:04.421 --> 00:40:09.826 It really is this learning model of how to interact and adapt in the world to get 00:40:09.826 --> 00:40:14.406 what they want in that moment, which is why they can be emotionally inconsistent 00:40:14.866 --> 00:40:18.316 and shift what mask they put on depending on who they're interacting with. 00:40:18.606 --> 00:40:20.306 When they're out in the public, they may seem like the 00:40:20.306 --> 00:40:21.606 world's greatest human being. 00:40:22.566 --> 00:40:25.306 And then when they're with you, they know that the way to get what 00:40:25.306 --> 00:40:28.266 they want from you is to just put you in that one down position. 00:40:29.241 --> 00:40:33.461 So it's common for a narcissist to cultivate a very agreeable, a generous, 00:40:33.461 --> 00:40:38.281 a charming, caring, pious, or even noble persona to attract a partner and then win 00:40:38.281 --> 00:40:40.151 favor in social or professional contexts. 00:40:41.001 --> 00:40:46.896 But then once that they have that person under their control, Now it's a matter 00:40:46.896 --> 00:40:50.776 of whatever they need to get from that person , to help feed that narcissistic 00:40:50.776 --> 00:40:54.206 supply . And that's where you start seeing that disparity between the 00:40:54.206 --> 00:40:55.686 narcissist's public and private face. 00:40:56.366 --> 00:41:01.464 And that difference is so dramatic in certain situations, especially 00:41:01.464 --> 00:41:03.971 in the form of covert narcissism. 00:41:04.411 --> 00:41:06.901 That that becomes one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects 00:41:06.901 --> 00:41:08.071 of the personality disorder. 00:41:08.481 --> 00:41:11.621 Because this disparity makes the reality of the abuse for those who are targeted 00:41:11.621 --> 00:41:14.991 within a family even more difficult to recognize and harder to call out. 00:41:15.391 --> 00:41:18.191 Because you see a version of the narcissist, or everyone 00:41:18.191 --> 00:41:19.151 else sees this version. 00:41:19.521 --> 00:41:22.681 So if you even dare complain, it seems like you're the crazy one. 00:41:23.446 --> 00:41:27.236 So think of a narcissist as an actor who knows exactly when to wear different masks 00:41:27.256 --> 00:41:33.166 and what scene, and even if they need to have a a accent, if they need to play the 00:41:33.166 --> 00:41:36.866 role of sad, whatever they need to do, because in public, they're often the most 00:41:36.866 --> 00:41:39.806 charming people in the room, the loving spouse who brags about their partner, 00:41:40.086 --> 00:41:43.686 the generous friend, always offering to help, or the devoted parent posting 00:41:43.686 --> 00:41:45.276 perfect family photos on social media. 00:41:45.636 --> 00:41:47.876 Or there's a church leader who's known for his inspirational 00:41:47.876 --> 00:41:49.156 speeches and his charity work. 00:41:49.426 --> 00:41:51.036 Everybody sees them as a pillar of the community. 00:41:51.436 --> 00:41:55.526 But at home he effectively terrorizes his family and he gives silent 00:41:55.526 --> 00:41:56.786 treatments and cruel criticism. 00:41:57.406 --> 00:42:00.266 But his wife can't tell anybody, because who's gonna believe her, because 00:42:00.266 --> 00:42:01.896 he's such a godly man, in public. 00:42:02.596 --> 00:42:06.566 Or, picture a mom, who's president of a PTA, always organizing fundraisers, 00:42:06.576 --> 00:42:09.826 supporting other parents, she seems so, so caring, so dedicated. 00:42:10.306 --> 00:42:12.756 But then her kids and her husband walk on eggshells at home. 00:42:13.201 --> 00:42:17.161 Because they never quite know what might trigger her rage, but when they try to 00:42:17.161 --> 00:42:20.121 tell family members or anybody else about her behavior, they're met with disbelief. 00:42:20.131 --> 00:42:21.021 But she's so sweet. 00:42:21.441 --> 00:42:22.911 I mean, she put together the whole charity event. 00:42:22.921 --> 00:42:23.681 What are you talking about? 00:42:24.391 --> 00:42:27.051 And so that double life just makes it incredibly hard. 00:42:27.616 --> 00:42:31.026 for the victims of emotional immaturity or narcissistic relationships to get help 00:42:31.036 --> 00:42:34.436 because who's going to believe that that charming doctor who volunteers at free 00:42:34.436 --> 00:42:39.766 clinics or helps with the old folks at at church is emotionally abusing his wife? 00:42:39.946 --> 00:42:43.216 Or that the cool mom who hosts all the neighborhood parties actually 00:42:43.216 --> 00:42:44.906 manipulates and terrorizes her children? 00:42:45.406 --> 00:42:49.126 The bigger the gap between public saint and private tyrant, the more 00:42:49.126 --> 00:42:50.676 trapped that their victims feel. 00:42:51.316 --> 00:42:53.976 Because speaking up often means facing doubt and disbelief from 00:42:53.976 --> 00:42:57.226 others who only see the mask and never the real face behind it. 00:42:57.652 --> 00:42:59.712 , Julie Hall talks about complex trauma. 00:42:59.872 --> 00:43:02.942 She said It's important to note that forms of antagonistic attachment as 00:43:02.942 --> 00:43:07.092 a bioecological phenomenon She said, except for competition, normally 00:43:07.092 --> 00:43:09.982 happen between different species, not members of the same species. 00:43:11.402 --> 00:43:14.542 But she says within the human species, regardless of culture 00:43:14.582 --> 00:43:17.952 or national border, such behavior is widely viewed as abhorrent. 00:43:18.882 --> 00:43:21.742 And in psychology, it's categorized as pathological. 00:43:22.342 --> 00:43:23.712 In ethics, it's immoral. 00:43:23.742 --> 00:43:25.892 In mythology and religious context, it's evil. 00:43:26.742 --> 00:43:29.102 And then there's a very good reason for this, because antagonistic 00:43:29.102 --> 00:43:30.922 attachment results in profound trauma. 00:43:31.517 --> 00:43:34.617 Trauma that cascades through the targeted individual's lifespan, from 00:43:34.627 --> 00:43:38.147 one family member to the next, and it goes across generations, and it goes 00:43:38.157 --> 00:43:41.697 deep into our social fabric, and into our institutions, even the leadership 00:43:41.697 --> 00:43:43.787 of into the political landscape. 00:43:43.787 --> 00:43:46.047 Think about how predators and prey interact in nature. 00:43:46.147 --> 00:43:49.297 A lion hunts a gazelle, or a parasite feeds off of a host, and 00:43:49.297 --> 00:43:51.487 then these relationships usually happen between different species, 00:43:51.497 --> 00:43:52.667 not within the same species. 00:43:53.497 --> 00:43:56.627 That is what makes the narcissistic behavior so unnatural and destructive. 00:43:56.627 --> 00:43:59.777 It's like somebody's choosing to be a predator among their own kind. 00:44:00.467 --> 00:44:02.957 And this type of relationship causes deep wounds, and they 00:44:02.957 --> 00:44:04.157 don't just affect one person. 00:44:04.717 --> 00:44:06.357 Imagine a stone thrown into a pond. 00:44:06.387 --> 00:44:07.677 The ripples just spread outward. 00:44:08.077 --> 00:44:10.347 A child who grows up with a narcissistic parent might struggle 00:44:10.347 --> 00:44:11.607 to trust others as an adult. 00:44:12.117 --> 00:44:14.567 They might have trouble forming healthy relationships with their 00:44:14.567 --> 00:44:17.517 own kids, who then, in turn, carry these patterns forward. 00:44:18.027 --> 00:44:21.817 The trauma doesn't stay contained within one family or one generation. 00:44:22.317 --> 00:44:25.917 Think of a successful businessman who belittles his wife and kids at home. 00:44:26.327 --> 00:44:28.987 His kids might grow up then thinking, this is what power looks like. 00:44:29.567 --> 00:44:32.307 His daughter might start seeking out similar relationships, while 00:44:32.307 --> 00:44:35.027 his son might copy his father's controlling behavior, or vice versa. 00:44:35.027 --> 00:44:38.617 The kids then learn that these same patterns are okay, 00:44:38.677 --> 00:44:39.982 and the cycle continues. 00:44:40.432 --> 00:44:43.252 Meanwhile, the damage spreads into the workplace and friendships and 00:44:43.252 --> 00:44:46.932 communities, and it creates this whole web of hurt that can last for generations. 00:44:47.252 --> 00:44:49.992 And this is why every culture has warnings about this kind of behavior, 00:44:50.002 --> 00:44:52.722 whether in religious teachings or fairy tales or family wisdom. 00:44:52.722 --> 00:44:55.392 They have recognized long ago how this type of relationship 00:44:55.392 --> 00:44:56.552 doesn't just hurt one person. 00:44:57.032 --> 00:45:00.902 It creates waves of trauma that can impact and affect families 00:45:00.902 --> 00:45:02.232 and communities for years to come. 00:45:02.396 --> 00:45:04.216 So let's wrap this up today. 00:45:04.412 --> 00:45:07.812 A lot of times I really do think that life's journey can feel like you're 00:45:07.812 --> 00:45:12.052 walking through a thunderstorm and not the fun kind, especially when you've 00:45:12.052 --> 00:45:16.902 experienced relationships where they made you question your own reality 00:45:16.922 --> 00:45:20.682 and your own sanity and you've wasted so much emotional time and energy 00:45:20.702 --> 00:45:24.172 trying to figure out what's wrong with you because here's the truth. 00:45:24.232 --> 00:45:24.682 Nothing. 00:45:25.092 --> 00:45:27.382 You are an amazing, wonderful human being. 00:45:27.822 --> 00:45:30.382 And you're here on this earth for the very first time and you're having 00:45:30.382 --> 00:45:33.322 experiences and those cause you to have thoughts and feelings and emotions. 00:45:33.782 --> 00:45:34.542 So check that out. 00:45:34.622 --> 00:45:35.362 You're not broken. 00:45:35.402 --> 00:45:35.962 You're human. 00:45:36.342 --> 00:45:38.552 The only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth. 00:45:39.282 --> 00:45:40.702 Your emotions are not too much. 00:45:40.992 --> 00:45:42.312 You're not too sensitive. 00:45:42.362 --> 00:45:45.382 And you absolutely deserve to be seen and heard. 00:45:46.102 --> 00:45:48.682 And for someone to be curious about what your experience is. 00:45:49.232 --> 00:45:51.632 Think back to that little child that you once were. 00:45:51.812 --> 00:45:53.212 Feeling all the big emotions. 00:45:53.672 --> 00:45:57.402 But being told to calm down, or stop crying, or don't worry 00:45:57.402 --> 00:45:58.682 about it, or it's not a big deal. 00:45:59.222 --> 00:46:02.492 But you did feel like it was a big deal, and you were trying to express that. 00:46:03.202 --> 00:46:06.382 And those moments, I really think they leave imprints on your soul. 00:46:06.432 --> 00:46:09.482 They are teaching you, though, to hide parts of yourself away. 00:46:10.116 --> 00:46:13.692 and I really think that , our little kids in us, that they think, Okay. 00:46:14.347 --> 00:46:16.657 I'm going to grow this big, giant adult, and then they're going to 00:46:16.657 --> 00:46:20.587 be able to heal us, because we're going to have to do that ourselves. 00:46:21.827 --> 00:46:24.837 And so, as a little kid, whether it's subconscious or consciously, you might 00:46:24.837 --> 00:46:28.847 have thought, Okay, growing up, when I'm bigger then I'm going to have a voice. 00:46:29.077 --> 00:46:30.497 Then I'm going to be in a good relationship. 00:46:30.634 --> 00:46:31.854 Growing up would fix everything. 00:46:32.294 --> 00:46:35.524 That having an adult body and an adult experience would finally give 00:46:35.524 --> 00:46:37.004 you the validation that you craved. 00:46:37.564 --> 00:46:41.244 But instead, you find yourself still carrying around those old patterns, 00:46:41.734 --> 00:46:44.664 still seeking permission to feel, or still looking for somebody 00:46:44.664 --> 00:46:46.094 else to tell you that you're okay. 00:46:46.974 --> 00:46:48.454 But here is the beautiful truth. 00:46:48.634 --> 00:46:51.914 You actually don't need anybody else's permission to be who you are. 00:46:52.564 --> 00:46:56.824 Your very unique combination of experiences, hopes and dreams and 00:46:56.824 --> 00:47:00.844 yeah, even your pain, they are all valid parts of your story. 00:47:01.349 --> 00:47:04.749 You're not walking around on this earth to be somebody else's version of perfect. 00:47:04.779 --> 00:47:08.509 You're here to be authentically, unapologetically you. 00:47:09.429 --> 00:47:11.869 Because remember those feelings that you were told to suppress? 00:47:12.609 --> 00:47:14.559 I believe they were actually trying to protect you. 00:47:14.609 --> 00:47:15.629 They were trying to guide you. 00:47:15.699 --> 00:47:19.059 They were trying to tell you something important about your needs, and your 00:47:19.069 --> 00:47:22.079 boundaries, and your wants, and your dreams, and your hopes, and your desires. 00:47:22.229 --> 00:47:23.169 They weren't too much. 00:47:23.909 --> 00:47:26.889 The people around you, bless their hearts, just didn't know how to handle them. 00:47:27.529 --> 00:47:31.039 But now as an adult, you have the power to become the supportive, loving 00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:35.579 presence that inner child in you has always needed, has always craved. 00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:37.439 You're not broken, you're human. 00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:42.839 And being human means having the courage to feel deeply to love fully, to live 00:47:42.839 --> 00:47:47.429 authentically, and your journey to healing isn't about becoming a different person. 00:47:47.939 --> 00:47:50.999 It's about embracing who you've always been because you are 00:47:51.149 --> 00:47:53.339 enough exactly as you are. 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:56.139 Thanks for joining me on this journey. 00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:00.109 If you have thoughts, questions, experiences that today brought 00:48:00.109 --> 00:48:02.209 up for you, please share them. 00:48:02.389 --> 00:48:02.979 Reach out to me. 00:48:02.979 --> 00:48:04.209 Contact at tonyoverbay. 00:48:04.209 --> 00:48:04.509 com. 00:48:04.509 --> 00:48:05.369 Tune in next week. 00:48:06.009 --> 00:48:07.229 The Death by a Thousand Cuts. 00:48:07.229 --> 00:48:11.759 I've got a really exciting announcement to make around a concept of a Patreon. 00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:13.779 And we'll save that for next time. 00:48:13.779 --> 00:48:14.449 Taking us out. 00:48:14.929 --> 00:48:15.719 The anthem. 00:48:15.799 --> 00:48:17.549 The theme of waking up to narcissism. 00:48:17.849 --> 00:48:18.559 Not my job. 00:48:19.459 --> 00:48:20.429 And thank you, 00:48:20.499 --> 00:48:20.969 Riley hope 00:48:21.019 --> 00:48:22.449 , for this amazing song. 00:48:22.979 --> 00:48:23.979 Have a great week, everybody. 00:48:24.049 --> 00:48:25.819 We'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.