Hey everybody welcome to episode 125 of waking up to narcissism.
I am your host, Tony overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the virtual
couch podcast, and a huge thank you to Riley hope for her song.
Not my job.
That thing is in my head constantly in a good kind of way.
And I think it is the anthem of waking up the narcissism.
So check out any and all of Riley's works.
Just look for Riley hope wherever you stream music.
And I'll also put some contact info in the show notes today.
But today, let's start with a question.
Person says, Hey, Tony, I'm a longtime listener to several of
your podcasts and something clicked this week that got me to email you.
I don't know if you're joking when you say this, but you have
mentioned more than once that narcissists don't know they exist.
Unless they're interacting with others.
And I think I just experienced this first hand with my wife.
So if I go too far down the way there, I am, but I'm not really joking.
Because this is that concept of the false self.
And if the person doesn't really have a true sense of self, and they don't
feel good about themselves, rather than maybe sitting with that discomfort,
doing a little self confrontation, and then taking action on something
that matters or of value, you know?
They're more likely to then say, okay, I'm going to go do a little bit
of walking around and I'm going to interact with people so that then I
can feel better about myself and I can put myself in this one up position.
So that's where I'm coming from . Because right out of the womb, a little baby
doesn't even know they're an entity unless they're interacting with others.
And at that point, then game on to get their needs met.
And when you talk about narcissism or people that are emotionally immature,
I think that's why you can so easily make the connection with emotional
immaturity, because rather than be okay with themselves or be able to sit with
their own discomfort or do things to self soothe or manage their own time,
it's like the little kid that you hear that's constantly saying, I'm bored.
And then you tell them, we'll do this or do this.
And they're like, I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Okay.
You're not a good parent.
I can't believe you're not giving me suggestions to do when all that started
with was I'm bored and I don't know how to self soothe, I don't know how to do
things on my own because if I do them and what if people aren't there to tell
me how good I did, or what if there isn't another comparison I can make
there to make me know that I did this better than somebody else did versus.
This is what I'm doing and I'm okay.
So back to the letter, he said our last child left for college
recently and my wife has seemed more withdrawn and irritable.
Yesterday she approached me asking if I was okay with our lack of connection.
Something felt off about the question so I asked her what she meant.
She launched into a lecture about how I don't show up for her, how alone she
feels, and how she sees other couples on Instagram doing things together
all the time, and she concluded that I must not care about her.
I found myself falling into our usual pattern, trying to convince her that
I do care, and promising to do better.
But this time, I reviewed the game film, as you often say, and noticed something.
These confrontations seem to happen more frequently since our daughter left for
college, and my wife appears to be picking small fights just to get me to engage.
So I'm curious, is this what you meant about narcissists not
existing without interaction?
Is she trying to create conflict just to feel something?
I'm starting to see how these conversations always end with me
trying to prove my worth, while then she maintains the upper hand.
Thanks for all you do.
We'll call him Tom.
So thank you, Tom.
That was a very thoughtful question, and it's a really good question that
is the perfect muse to talk about.
A few things that I've been wanting to talk about around
the world of narcissistic and emotionally immature people.
And if anybody is new, welcome aboard, I'm going to use the word
narcissist, but that is because it is far less syllables than narcissist
person who has narcissistic traits and tendencies, or someone who is on the
scale of emotional immaturity, more than likely pretty high up on that
scale, just tiptoeing into the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies.
So I know that I'm talking more about more emotionally immature people because
if we all start from a place of we're all pretty emotionally immature until
we're not, then hopefully you can gain something from hearing all of the
things that we'll talk about today.
People are waking up to their own narcissistic traits and tendencies or the
emotional immaturity in their partner.
I think that that email, really highlights something
crucial about narcissistic relationships to explore today.
Because when we understand how narcissists depend on others for their
whole sense of self, then I think that's when we start to see a pattern.
And we're really trying to start to identify patterns that
might've been invisible before.
I did an episode on this a while ago.
I want to say at least a couple of years ago that I wanted to get back
to because it was pretty dramatically saying game changing when I understood
this concept of well, let me give credit where the credit is due.
The episode I did a while ago was based off of an article by Julie Hall, and
she's the author of The Narcissist in Your Life and creator of The Narcissist
Files, and I'll have links to her work in the show notes as well as the
article that acted as a muse to this earlier episode that I did on what
we're going to talk about today, as well as we'll refer to it today as well.
You can find it on Psychology Today, and it's called Understanding the
Narcissist Antagonistic Attachment Style.
, , the first time I read this one, it blew my mind.
And we'll touch on a lot of the concepts around that, and I want to
go deeper into some examples of , what this antagonistic attachment style
looks like, or why somebody that is emotionally immature or narcissistic
does need another human to interact with.
So we're going to deep dive into what Julie Hall referred to as the
narcissist or the emotionally immature partner's antagonistic attachment,
because this is a way of relating where one person can only feel good about
themselves by making others feel bad.
You can think of it like a relationship, like a seesaw, where when one person
goes up, the other must go down, and that pattern is really clear
during major life transitions, like when children leave home, or the
narcissist loses some of their regular sources of their emotional supply.
What we'll explore today, it's not just theory, because it's about
understanding how these relationship dynamics play out in real life,
from the very subtle put downs.
Things like family dinners to some of the more insidious ways that the
narcissist attacks to maintain control,
but more importantly, we'll talk about why recognizing these patterns
is the first step toward reclaiming your own sense of self from going
from, I didn't know what I didn't know to now I know, so what do I do?
Because when people are securely attached, they form healthy relationships and those
help both people grow and feel supported.
Because you can think of this as like a strong friendship where both
friends want the best for each other.
There's reciprocity in the friendship and it doesn't mean
that it's an equal tit for tat.
That's not a very healthy way to interact with others but I know that I am going
to be there for this person and they're going to be there for me too, as best they
can, they can share their feelings openly.
You can help each other through the tough times, but through
both of your tough times.
And you can celebrate each other's successes, not feel like, well, if
you just got that promotion, then you must think that I am not as important.
Because these mutually reciprocal relationships, those are the
kind of relationships that make both people stronger and happier.
And I'm not saying that you have to have this other person to feel good about
yourself, but we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human.
So when it's a safe human being, I only know what my experience is, and I would
love to bounce that off of someone else and say, Hey, what's your experience?
And then we can both be curious about the way that we're
showing up in life together.
But in contrast, the narcissist approaches relationships like a predator or a
parasite because they're always trying to win at somebody else's expense.
And you've most likely, if you're listening to this podcast, had an
experience with somebody who only hangs out with you when they need something,
or they always have to prove that they're better than you, the classic one upper.
They might act nice in public, but then they're going to
treat you badly in private.
And that is really unhealthy because relationships are not supposed to
be competitions where one person wins and the other person loses.
And the damage caused by narcissistic relationships then goes way beyond
hurting one person's feelings, because when somebody is constantly
put down, manipulated, or used by the narcissist, that can affect
your mental health, your self esteem, and your ability to trust yourself.
And others for a long time to come.
And then that trauma is spread throughout families.
For example, if kids grow up with a narcissistic parent, then they may
struggle in their own relationships.
Not may they will struggle in their own relationships later in life.
, it's the butterfly effect or throwing a stone in the pond and the
ripples just, they spread out and they affect everything around them.
And this is why it's so important to recognize these unhealthy patterns and
learn what healthy relationships actually look like, whether you are the one that
showing up more emotionally immature.
Or you are in an emotionally immature relationship because your kids
are mapping what you are doing.
They are starting to look at your relationship and saying, okay, so this
is what healthy relationship looks like.
let's set the stage a little bit.
Think of the narcissist as somebody who can only see their reflection
and other people's reactions.
So without the interactions, they don't have a solid sense
of self of who they are.
Because it's almost like they're invisible to themselves.
So whenever they meet somebody, they desperately need to
feel important and real.
And the easiest way for them to do this is to make themselves feel
bigger by making others feel smaller.
Or, and we'll talk about one up one down position later, but Even going into victim
is now saying, Hey, I'm doing so bad.
You now need to pay attention to me, or you need to validate how bad my life is,
or you need to validate how awesome I am.
But either way, the narcissist takes control of the narrative
of the conversation of the dynamic in the friendship.
So they may do it by putting others down or even showing off or making everything
a competition that they have to win.
Because it's like they're constantly building themselves up by stepping
over others or on others because they don't know how to feel good Just
about themselves otherwise and this starts to create a cycle where they
need constant validation from others But they can only get it by hurting
those same people by taking that one up position and the sad part is that
this What they view as a superior version of themselves is not real.
I mean, it's a mask that they wear to hide how empty they feel inside.
But don't, if you point that out to them they aren't going to say,
man, there's some real truth there.
Now it's going to be, Oh, Mr.
Psychologist.
So you think you're smart?
Well, let me tell you how smart I am, or man, you know what?
I don't know why I do that.
Something's wrong with me.
But in either one of those, now you're either on the defense or
you're going to go validate them.
Let me talk a little bit about how these patterns show up in marriages
as a couple's therapist, where one person's need to feel important ends up.
And this is what's Unfortunate, but true, slowly breaking down the other
person's sense of self or confidence.
Picture a couple in a kitchen and the husband might constantly just hover over
his wife while she cooks and pointing out everything that she's doing wrong.
She might cut this wrong.
She might do this wrong.
It's not really the.
The cups you're going to use for that, or really you're using that spatula.
I like this other one, even though here's the thing.
She is an adult human being who has actually been cooking delicious meals
for years and eating them and being able to sustain herself and her kids.
But over time, what does she do?
She starts to second guess every move that she makes in the kitchen until
she just stops cooking altogether.
Then what happens?
Now he complains about having to rescue their meals, which makes him feel
important while making her feel useless.
. He created that scenario with his criticism so that he could run in
there and rescue and be the hero and now seek validation for that, which is
only going to make her feel even worse.
Or I think of an example with money.
Where there was a wife who then took control of all the finances and she
did everything she could to, I want to say, make her husband feel stupid.
He definitely felt stupid for every purchase that he
suggested or that he even made.
So eventually he stops making any money decisions at all, believing
that he can't trust his own judgment.
And now she feels like, see, aren't you glad that I have now in
charge of the finances because you can't even make up your own mind.
Well, he can, but if he does, it is this attack surface.
He is going to be criticized for it.
That is how she's going to feel like she exists.
Sometimes it shows up as one spouse playing a protector.
Think of a husband who convinces his wife that she's really
awkward in social situations.
And so he needs to be able to guide her to help her navigate them.
And unfortunately, this one's all too common.
So then he'll point out to her the, Hey, here's your mistakes after
get togethers with other people until over time where she's been
interacting as a human her entire life.
But now she's kind of afraid to talk to anybody without him there.
Or, there's an example of a wife who positions herself as her husband's
career guru and she was taking credit of everything when things went well, but
then if they didn't, then would blame him.
Well, I didn't suggest that.
See, every time you try to do things on your own, look what happens.
So he ends up feeling like he can't make any work decisions without her approval.
Or one that I like to call the perfect family act.
So picture a husband who's always posting perfect family photos online, gets all
the praise for being such a great dad, while at home, he is a train wreck.
He's constantly criticizing his wife's parenting, he's criticizing
the kids, she starts doubting herself even though she's a really good mom.
Or the wife who makes sure that everybody sees her as the super mom,
while subtly undermining everything that her husband does or says in parenting.
So then what does he do?
He's going to gradually back away from making any decisions about
the kids because he already knows he's going to do it wrong, but she
will often ask him for his opinion.
And then he will then just say I don't know, whatever you think, where then it
just further validates her as the only one that really cares about the kids.
He just feels like he will never be good enough.
But in both of those cases, the kids learn to navigate the whole
situation, this whole confusing world of adulthood, where what looks like
perfect on the outside, Then can feel absolutely painful on the inside.
And that is normal, but that's what they're seeing because in all these
situations, one person builds themselves up again, by slowly tearing the partner
down, , you are watching somebody's confidences get chipped away piece by
piece, but then this narcissistic person actually gets stronger from each chip
they take, as if they're eating these chips to then make them become stronger.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Even though if you are listening, actually, if you're watching on YouTube as
well, you never went anywhere, but I did.
I went from my office in Arizona to my office in California.
So if you're watching on YouTube or listening to the audio version of the
podcast, I wanted to make sense of why the microphones no doubt sound different.
But also here's something that's a little bit embarrassing.
I thought it would be clever because of the continuity from one Seen to the next
that I am wearing the same shirt and yes, that is the same shirt as yesterday.
So shout out to who I wish was a sponsor, Buttercloth Shirts, because you can
wear them more than one day in a row.
And I will not take that out of the podcast.
But if you see in the background, then yeah, that's
this is the California office.
And maybe another reason to go subscribe to the YouTube channel and watch the
video on YouTube, because I will not.
I'm going to share with you what is in my background, because that is not a
normal thing in a therapist's background.
And if you comment in the comments, and maybe the first person that tells me
what that actually is, and then reach out to me through a direct message, I'll
send you a virtual couch sweatshirt.
But back to the episode.
Let's talk about the concepts around the one up and one down
dynamic, because I mention people in narcissistic relationships continually
falling into that one down position.
Which then the narcissist or the emotionally immature jumps
up into that one up position.
Let's go into some more detail on that.
The concept of the one up, one down is used often by a regular guest
of the podcast, one of my favorite therapists, Jennifer Finliss in Fife,
who I know has brought that into her work from some of the work of
David Schnarsh, who I now absolutely am somewhat obsessed with his work.
And I did a little digging on the internet to find that the concept of one
up, one down dynamics in relationships was probably most notably explored
by a psychiatrist named Eric Byrne.
And he's did some amazing work that he calls the transactional analysis model.
And then, also, Later it was expanded by Stephen Karpman, and Karpman has a concept
called the Karpman Drama Triangle, and that shows that in these kind of dynamics,
where there, there is immaturity, or there is narcissism, , or in most
relationship dynamics, there tends to be three characters that come to life, the
victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer.
And I can't say that I've done an episode about the Cartman drama
triangle and waking up to narcissism.
So I'm going to make note of that.
And I think we'll do one of those with regard to narcissism and emotional
immaturity soon, because I think it fits perfectly into the interactions
when you have a narcissist or emotionally immature person in the mix.
Let's talk more about the one up, one down dynamic.
So think of these relationships like a see saw, where when one person pushes
up, then the other naturally goes down.
Well, in healthy relationships, the see saw stays pretty balanced,
and both people are taking turns.
A good turn taking.
Something that happens as you become more emotionally mature, even as a kid.
And they are supporting each other.
So now we're starting to get toward the mutual reciprocity in a relationship.
But in unhealthy relationships, one person constantly tries to stay on top, and
they leave the other stuck at the bottom.
And you might see this play out in daily life in a couple of different ways.
One, let's say that a husband always has to one up his wife's
stories at dinner parties.
So if she talks about a tough day at work, you probably see where this is going.
He jumps in with, well let me tell you about my day.
My day's even, harder.
And if she shares a success, then he, immediately follows up with
some bigger achievement of his.
And it doesn't have to be something in the present day.
This is where we can go back and tell you all about my high school trophies.
You see this happen with kids and teenagers.
And if somebody is talking about their accomplishments at school, a
parent will often jump in and say, man, I was really good at math.
Or did I ever tell you about the time I scored 30 points where
the kids are thinking, man, you've told me a whole bunch.
And it actually started with 20 and then it got to 25 and 30.
I can't wait to hear where this goes when I have kids.
But over time the person that is being put in that one down position
starts to share less and less because they start to feel like their
experiences really don't matter.
And if it sounds familiar to the tit for tat, I think it's because it is.
I think it's another key to why our unhealthy ways that we show
up in relationships and relating to others and even to ourselves
is rooted in our immaturity.
It's literally an immature way to, to communicate.
Only the narcissist, now, when they become adults, can sound more
confident or convincing, or they're really good at finding ways to
slip into that one up position.
And they become very convincing when they are throwing out their tip to
the point where you don't even feel like tatting, man, have you ever said
something that in the very moment that you're saying it, you're thinking I'm
onto something, this could be gold.
But then when it's out of your mouth they can't all be home runs.
When I was literally right then saying, throwing out there, the tip or tap anyway,
. So here's one that I think I can channel so many examples of this, but one that
I saw recently, imagine a mom who always positions herself as the better parent.
So when dad suggests a way to handle their teenager's behavior,
she dismisses his idea immediately.
It's almost like reflexive or impulsive, and she proves why her
approach is so much more superior.
So eventually, he
stops
making suggestions altogether, because he feels like his parenting instincts must
be wrong, because every time he brings something up, and literally every time,
and I'm not a big all or nothing guy, But it is put down and viewed as crazy, even
though other times it isn't so crazy.
So the very fact that Dad tried to parent, gave the wife in this situation, her
attack surface that she needed in order to for her to now, in that very moment,
seize onto a way to feel like she exists, like she matters, like she has a purpose,
and that purpose is, I can prove that my husband is a bad parent, and I am the
good parent, and who cares if it's in front of the kids, that will then someday,
even maybe by this afternoon or evening, Use this very argument that we're having
in front of them against both of us by validating the more immature parent,
the mom, to get more of what they want.
Man, mom, I love the way you handled that.
You're the best.
Or then criticize the parent that was just put in the one down
position in this scenario, dad, to once again, get what they want.
But back to the mom, she matters in this very moment.
And it's all about this moment.
Thank you dad for trying to parent because now I can finally have something
I can use to put you down and pick me up and then you will now be required to
go along with my nay, even validate me as the better parent and take ownership
of your very bad attempt at parenting and and kids, kids, take a look.
Aren't you also glad that I'm here to rescue you from that
horrible parenting that your father just tried to pull on you.
Do your homework before bed.
What was this man thinking?
You guys have had an incredibly tough day.
Sometimes you kids just need to go to bed.
Now.
None of this will be relevant tomorrow night when I, emotionally
immature mom, is not feeling good about myself and dad is working late.
No, no, that will be entirely different.
And you most certainly will need to do your homework before you go to bed.
What are you even thinking?
What kind of loony bin do you think that I'm running here?
But that'll be different.
How?
That's irrelevant.
You'll have to stay tuned to find out.
And husband, just you wait.
You will come home from your hard day tomorrow and I'll tell
you how naughty those kids were.
And you'll say, why, what did they do?
And I'll tell you, can you believe they weren't wanting to
do their homework before bedtime?
And you'll look confused, sure, but you better not say a word, or there
will be absolutely zero chance of physical intimacy this evening.
So you then will say, Do you want me to go wake those kids up?
Have them scrub the bathroom floors with a toothbrush until they, Until they shine
like the top of the Chrysler building?
Because yes, I just referenced the movie Annie, your favorite dear wife, because
you identify with Annie, Even though you grew up in an affluent neighborhood in
the foothills of the Salt Lake Valley.
But I will now tell you that I don't know how you do it.
Despite the fact that I just got home after a 16 hour stressful
day, but when you asked me how my day was, with the, I went with the
requisite, it was fine, it was good.
No, it was really good.
Because, actually, if I try and share anything with you, you will either A.
Not respond at all, or B.
Tell me that I could have done whatever I did better, even though I don't think
you truly even know what I do every day.
But I just know that if you did know, you would think that
you could do it better than me.
End scene.
Okay, I didn't actually see that one coming either, but what makes this
pattern so damaging is how it slowly reshapes people's sense of worth.
The person in the one down position starts to believe that they really
are less capable or less intelligent or less valuable, or most definitely
that their opinion does not matter.
Meanwhile, the person maintaining the one up position becomes more dependent on
keeping others beneath them to feel good about themselves, to know that they exist.
It's like they can only feel tall by making everybody else feel small.
And Julie Hall mentions in her article that To the Narcissist life is a
zero sum game, where there's only a fixed amount of worth or success
or credit or anything available.
So if somebody gets credit or success or attention or validation, then it
must come to a detriment to them.
If you have an opinion, you must think that the narcissist doesn't have one.
So they'll show you that they do, and put you in the one down position.
If you are receiving praise, then that means that they are not, and they
would like to make sure that they get that praise before all of the praise
is evaporated from the very ether.
I always like a good pie a good chocolate cream pie, maybe a chocolate
silk, but so why not a pie analogy?
So if you think of it like a pie in a healthy relationship people
know they can make more pies.
Success for one person does not take away from another, but to the
narcissist, they just see one pie.
So if their partner gets a bigger slice, like receiving praise or
attention or validation, then they feel like they are losing their share,
and that's why they constantly work to maintain that one up position.
Because they have to take all the rest of the pie, and it is a zero sum game.
So they need more pie in order to know that they are better
than you, and that they are okay.
Other examples, when a spouse shares good news about a promotion instead
of celebrating, they might subtly undermine it and say things like,
Oh, they must have been pretty desperate for somebody, or, I mean,
be honest, could anybody do that job?
Because every interaction then becomes about maintaining that larger slice of the
pie by making others slices feel smaller.
And they can't feel like success until somebody else feels like a failure,
black or white, all or nothing.
Can't feel smart until somebody else feels stupid.
They can't feel important unless somebody else feels insignificant.
Let me take some time and go back through Julie Hall's
article, and I want to read it.
It's fairly short, but it just had so much good information.
I'll provide a little more insight than I did on the previous episode.
She says that humans are highly social, collaborative species with
intricately complex interdependency.
She said, we raise children together.
We work together, we learn together, we eat together, we play together.
And then the list goes on and on.
And the glue that bonds us is our common capacity and desire for attachment.
This drive to connect and to share and protect and care.
But then she lays out what just drew me in antagonistic attachment.
So she talks about how securely attached humans approach relationships as a
cooperative activity, very cooperatively.
They work together to achieve shared goals.
They seek and they give empathetic validation.
They share accurate.
and truthful information.
Then they express affection and vulnerability to build trust and
intimacy in the relationships.
She said there might be conflict, there might be disagreements, but mutual support
is the foundation of the relationship and respect and love are not at stake.
And that is so key because to the emotionally immature or
narcissistic people that are in relationships, then love is at stake.
They will withdraw love from you at any moment as a form of punishment
until then you fall back into line.
She says, by contrast, for the narcissistic personality, attachment
with others is antagonistic.
And I love that she points out it's a concept in biology that refers to
a relationship in which one organism benefits at the expense of another.
Common forms of antagonism in nature are a thing called predation, there's
also competition, and then there's parasit and then there's parasitism.
Let's look at these three dynamics in narcissistic human relationships.
Predation.
Julie says a predator typically kills and eats its prey to gain life giving energy.
In a predatory human relationship, there might be murder, but more
often, there's a condition of ongoing domination and subjugation.
And because narcissists view all relationships as a struggle for
dominance, then they emotionally and probably physically and sexually
oppress and intimidate and violate others to experience and maintain
feelings of power and control.
She goes on to say that Narcissistic displays of dominance may be flagrant
forms of aggression such as hitting, pushing, berating, name calling, playing
favorites, critiquing, and monologuing, or there might be more passive aggressive
maneuvers like just outright dismissal, giving the silent treatment, backhanded
compliments quote, joking barbs, veiled threats, and then triangulation.
But whatever that strategy is, and however well it's rationalized or
disguised, the purpose is to bully the other person into submission.
So I wanted to come up with some examples of what this looks
like in everyday relationships.
So a husband berates his wife's appearance every morning, telling her that she looks
sloppy, or she looks unprofessional, or she looks like a little bloated.
And at family dinners, maybe he monopolizes conversations, talking
endlessly about his achievements and then cutting off other people, truly showing
that if you are talking, I don't really understand why we're continuing to Or a
mom openly favors one child, giving them special privileges while criticizing
their siblings for similar behaviors.
And what's interesting is, in that example, you might see that she believes
that by building this one child up, that it not only makes her feel better about
a mom, Because she obviously played a great role in the success of this child,
but then she somehow thinks that she's now motivating the others to try to be
like this child, and she's removing her own responsibility as a mom out of the
equation, because, look, I've done it.
This person is perfect.
That's why the narcissist we'll typically find this golden child
because then they say, see, I am good, this works, you guys are responsible
for yourselves, I have already done this amazing, wonderful thing.
The passive aggressive tactics are some of the things that just lead to these
death by a thousand cuts, which is actually the episode coming up next week.
But a wife responds to her husband's work promotion with, well, I guess
they really do need people, and then gives him the silent treatment
when he wants to celebrate.
She makes sure that if we are here to celebrate you, we go back
to that zero sum game, then that means we're not celebrating me, and
there's only a limited amount of celebration existing in the world,
and I don't want to waste it on you.
Or a father tells his teenage daughter, Yeah, I'm just joking, after making
cutting remarks about her weight, and then texts other family members
about how she's been really sensitive.
Nobody mentioned that she looks a little bit heavy in the Christmas
photo, because she's going to freak out.
And these are unfortunately based off of real stories.
A mother in law tells her daughter in law, you're so brave to wear that dress
at your size, and then immediately turns to compliment somebody else's outfit.
Because in all these cases, there's a pattern that the narcissist
maintains control by making others feel small or uncertain.
When called out, then they'll say, you're too sensitive, or I was just trying
to help, or I didn't really mean it.
But the real goal is keeping others off balance and feeling inferior.
And whether it's through obvious aggression or these subtle digs,
they're working to maintain their position of power.
And I think the scariest part is how these behaviors then just escalate
so slowly, this gradual build up.
Because what starts as what might even sound like some occasional
helpful criticism, gradually just becomes constant put downs.
And that's part of what creates the trauma bond, because now, the person
that is continually receiving these put downs might every now and again
get a breadcrumb or a scrap of a compliment, and that feels so good,
that now they're gonna chase that like a drug addict, from that point forward.
The person on that receiving end might not even notice how much they've
started walking on eggshells, changing their behaviors just to avoid these
interactions, or to get the validation from the emotionally immature.
Julie says that competition is another type of relational antagonism
characteristic of narcissism because narcissists approach
relationships oppositionally.
They view other people, including and often especially their family
and even more so the person they interact with the most.
So their spouse, their partner as competitors for resources.
So those resources may be tangible things, but often they're intangible
or interpersonal resources, such as attention, acknowledgement, inclusion,
respect, admiration, and affection.
And this is where that concept of seeing life as a zero sum game comes into play.
Because if you see life as a zero sum game, where you can only win if somebody
else is, if somebody else loses, then a narcissist is going to continually
work to undermine and one up everybody around them, while asserting their
superiority and then feeling like they have this greater sense of entitlement.
And then, typically, competitive narcissistic behaviors within families
and other social groups include things like comparing, and insert social media
comment here, bragging, over talking, blaming, cheating, exaggerating,
diminishing, excluding, applying double standards, distorting and withholding
information, and also taking undue credit.
So let me give some examples of how that narcissistic competition plays
out in real family settings, all based off of, unfortunately, real stories.
Imagine a family dinner where a father can't let his son share
good news without topping it.
This one I hear so often, and I know that this is in my more
emotionally immature days.
I wanted to, if my son shared an achievement in sports, I did think,
Oh, I've got an example of something I can share with him, and then he
will think, Man, my dad was really amazing, but what I'm doing is
taking away from his experience.
So in this scenario, and if a son talks about making a basketball team,
dad launches into stories about, well, I was actually the team captain.
The next day, then dad tells relatives a very highly exaggerated version,
making his son's achievement sound very minor, while painting himself
as a real athlete in the family.
I go continually back to the Napoleon Dynamite character of Uncle Rico,
and let me show you how I can throw a football over that mountain.
And we would have won state had not fill in the blanks.
Or picture a mom who constantly compares her daughters.
When one gets an A on a test, instead of Prey, she says, That's so wild, your
sister always got like an A I don't know if she really ever got one wrong.
But I mean, an A's not bad.
But she really didn't study either.
Or during family events, she'll talk over one daughter's stories while showcasing
another daughter's accomplishments.
And if something goes wrong, she's quick to blame the less favored child,
even if it's clearly not their fault.
And you see this play out in the workplace, too.
A narcissistic co worker might take credit for team projects they barely worked on.
They'll withhold important information from colleagues, and they'll swoop
in as the hero who saves the day.
It's just business, after all.
And if somebody else succeeds, they'll spread little doubts or rumors
about how that person achieved it.
Well, you know who their uncle is.
They are in corporate.
Or, yeah, I think that they've been using a lot of artificial intelligence lately.
Which, by the way, is projection, because the person saying that, in that
scenario, was found out to be using nothing but artificial intelligence.
But in each case, the narcissist sees every situation as a
contest that they have to win.
They can't celebrate other successes, because that means that,
that will mean that they lost.
And it's exhausting for everybody involved, because you just
feel like you're constantly in competition that you never even
signed up for, and you can't win.
If you talk about running a 5k over the weekend, then the person's like,
Oh, 5k, all those are adorable.
I remember doing those back before I started running marathons.
And let's talk about parasitism.
Parasitism is another common relational dynamic in the narcissistic personality's
antagonistic style of attachment.
And I think it's perhaps the worst of the three that Julie
Hall mentions in her article.
Because a parasite feeds off of a host organism to the host
detriment and it causes depletion and disease and often death.
So between humans, parasitism shows up as exploitation in relationships.
Usually with the parasitic narcissist manipulating or coercing the other person.
And let's talk about coercion.
So coercion is a concept that I would love for you to be very
familiar with because there are a lot of changes in laws in the U.
S.
around the concept of coercive control.
So coercion is the act of using force or threats to make somebody do something
that they wouldn't otherwise do.
So for example, a bully threatening a kid with a bloody nose to get their
lunch money is an act of coercion.
Or, some other examples, if a landlord's forcing a tenant to leave a premises,
or a lawyer's threatening to fire a, a waiter if they don't rat out their boss,
but it's threatening harm to somebody if they don't do what you want them to do.
We often hear about coercion in things like political circles, using
extreme fear to control people.
Or, in a criminal case, a defendant can use coercion as a defense if
they were forced to commit a crime.
So, for example, if somebody literally holds a gun to your head
and threatens to kill you, you could use coercion as a defense to
have an assault charge dismissed.
And I looked up, and at least I know in California, Coercion, particularly when
it constitutes a pattern of behavior known as coercive control, is considered
grounds for a restraining order because it's a legally recognized form of
domestic violence under California state law, meaning that you can seek a
restraining order against somebody who's using coercive tactics to control you.
There's some pretty interesting points as we're learning more about coercive
control as a form of domestic violence.
Legal definition in California explicitly includes coercive control
as a form of domestic violence.
Examples of coercive control, isolating somebody from friends and family,
controlling finances, monitoring daily activities, using threats or
intimidation to manipulate behavior.
And in order to get this restraining order, if you coercive behavior that
impacts your safety and well being, you may be able to obtain a restraining
order against the perpetrator.
But in, in Julie Hall's article, she talks also about coercing somebody into
providing ongoing resources such as money, housing, privilege, social standing.
I have to say intimacy because my daughter who puts these up on YouTube said that
if I say, and you can say on the internet SEGS, S E G G S, but I think you know
where I'm going, then apparently that gets you lower in the on the algorithm
and providing the content to other people but that's one of the most frequent forms
of coercion that I see in my practice.
And also, things like caretaking, other forms of service.
Parasitism is used to render the host easier to exploit.
And then the narcissist will use tactics like isolation, guilt, seduction, fawning,
gaslighting, while they also employ forms of intermittent reinforcement.
That's the concept behind the trauma bond, where the person that's giving
you the punishment is also delivering you a little bit of the reward, and that
will start to create this illusion of reciprocity in the relationship no, we're,
we're give and take, we're in this thing together, but that relationship not only
drains the host of physical and emotional resources, but it starts to alienate them
from their own self preserving instincts, their own sense of self and their ability
to maintain safe personal boundaries.
So when I talk about that, it's a waste of emotional calories and energy to
try to worry about what's wrong with you because somebody else has put you
on this goose chase and said this is all you, that at some point you need to
understand that you are you and you are doing life the way that you are doing it.
And that's okay.
And that that is a them issue.
If they find what you're doing, fill in the blank.
That if they have a real challenge with the way that you are doing, you.
You can think of a narcissistic relationship like a vampire story,
but instead of the blood that they are wanting, they are draining
somebody's whole sense of self.
And here's how it starts to play out, and these are, again,
based off of real examples.
A husband might start by isolating his wife, telling her that her friends
don't really care about her, or they wouldn't have acted that way, or that
her family, they don't really, they don't really understand our love.
So when she's feeling alone Then he showers her with attention and praise,
but just when she starts to feel secure, then he pulls away, leaving her kind
of desperate for his approval again.
And then if she questions this pattern, then it'll twist the entire reality.
Well, you're, I never said that, or you're making things up.
That's exactly, that's not what's happening actually.
Or consider a mom who uses guilt to control her adult children.
One day she's praising them as the only ones who truly love her.
And the next day she's accusing them of abandoning her.
You never call, you never write.
So then she'll create emergencies right before important events in
their lives, making them choose between their needs and hers.
This is the ultimate test.
Will they show up for me?
And when they do, well, it really wasn't that big of a deal anyway.
But she'll play the victim.
If they try to set boundaries, after all, I've sacrificed for you as your mom.
And what makes this whole thing damaging is how it gradually breaks
down somebody's ability to trust themselves, trust their gut instinct.
And the proverbial and slowly heating water.
They don't notice how they're losing their sense of what's normal and what's healthy.
And so they start doubting their memories, their feelings, then
their right to have needs at all.
And then the narcissist then effectively keeps them off balance just enough
to stay dependent, but then gives them the occasional breadcrumbs of
kindness or a little bit of validation, maybe even intimacy to keep them
hoping that no, things will change.
They're, they are good at times.
And Julie calls it hidden abuse.
She says people who are narcissistic seldom make their antagonism transparent
for the simple reason that they would suffer consequences if they do.
And I don't believe that they can see themselves as that bad of a
person, even if they are doing things that a bad person does.
So even overt narcissists, who are more brashly superior and more domineering than
other types, know that they won't get very far in life if they fail to adhere to, or
more importantly, give the appearance of adhering to, some rules and social norms.
So sometimes you can box a narcissist in, or train your narcissist
to know that, well, this isn't getting them what they need.
So they will learn, they will adapt.
It's almost like a narcissistic artificial intelligence this learning model.
They learn that, okay, when I don't do this, Then I get more of
what I want, or when I say these things, then I get what I want.
And that's whether it's with acquaintances, or
friends, or family members.
So for the narcissist, it becomes something they need to do at all times,
to mask their own harsh self interest and their contempt for others and
they need to develop more socially acceptable strategies for getting what
they want from their relationships.
So they learn.
It really is this learning model of how to interact and adapt in the world to get
what they want in that moment, which is why they can be emotionally inconsistent
and shift what mask they put on depending on who they're interacting with.
When they're out in the public, they may seem like the
world's greatest human being.
And then when they're with you, they know that the way to get what
they want from you is to just put you in that one down position.
So it's common for a narcissist to cultivate a very agreeable, a generous,
a charming, caring, pious, or even noble persona to attract a partner and then win
favor in social or professional contexts.
But then once that they have that person under their control, Now it's a matter
of whatever they need to get from that person , to help feed that narcissistic
supply . And that's where you start seeing that disparity between the
narcissist's public and private face.
And that difference is so dramatic in certain situations, especially
in the form of covert narcissism.
That that becomes one of the most confusing and dangerous aspects
of the personality disorder.
Because this disparity makes the reality of the abuse for those who are targeted
within a family even more difficult to recognize and harder to call out.
Because you see a version of the narcissist, or everyone
else sees this version.
So if you even dare complain, it seems like you're the crazy one.
So think of a narcissist as an actor who knows exactly when to wear different masks
and what scene, and even if they need to have a a accent, if they need to play the
role of sad, whatever they need to do, because in public, they're often the most
charming people in the room, the loving spouse who brags about their partner,
the generous friend, always offering to help, or the devoted parent posting
perfect family photos on social media.
Or there's a church leader who's known for his inspirational
speeches and his charity work.
Everybody sees them as a pillar of the community.
But at home he effectively terrorizes his family and he gives silent
treatments and cruel criticism.
But his wife can't tell anybody, because who's gonna believe her, because
he's such a godly man, in public.
Or, picture a mom, who's president of a PTA, always organizing fundraisers,
supporting other parents, she seems so, so caring, so dedicated.
But then her kids and her husband walk on eggshells at home.
Because they never quite know what might trigger her rage, but when they try to
tell family members or anybody else about her behavior, they're met with disbelief.
But she's so sweet.
I mean, she put together the whole charity event.
What are you talking about?
And so that double life just makes it incredibly hard.
for the victims of emotional immaturity or narcissistic relationships to get help
because who's going to believe that that charming doctor who volunteers at free
clinics or helps with the old folks at at church is emotionally abusing his wife?
Or that the cool mom who hosts all the neighborhood parties actually
manipulates and terrorizes her children?
The bigger the gap between public saint and private tyrant, the more
trapped that their victims feel.
Because speaking up often means facing doubt and disbelief from
others who only see the mask and never the real face behind it.
, Julie Hall talks about complex trauma.
She said It's important to note that forms of antagonistic attachment as
a bioecological phenomenon She said, except for competition, normally
happen between different species, not members of the same species.
But she says within the human species, regardless of culture
or national border, such behavior is widely viewed as abhorrent.
And in psychology, it's categorized as pathological.
In ethics, it's immoral.
In mythology and religious context, it's evil.
And then there's a very good reason for this, because antagonistic
attachment results in profound trauma.
Trauma that cascades through the targeted individual's lifespan, from
one family member to the next, and it goes across generations, and it goes
deep into our social fabric, and into our institutions, even the leadership
of into the political landscape.
Think about how predators and prey interact in nature.
A lion hunts a gazelle, or a parasite feeds off of a host, and
then these relationships usually happen between different species,
not within the same species.
That is what makes the narcissistic behavior so unnatural and destructive.
It's like somebody's choosing to be a predator among their own kind.
And this type of relationship causes deep wounds, and they
don't just affect one person.
Imagine a stone thrown into a pond.
The ripples just spread outward.
A child who grows up with a narcissistic parent might struggle
to trust others as an adult.
They might have trouble forming healthy relationships with their
own kids, who then, in turn, carry these patterns forward.
The trauma doesn't stay contained within one family or one generation.
Think of a successful businessman who belittles his wife and kids at home.
His kids might grow up then thinking, this is what power looks like.
His daughter might start seeking out similar relationships, while
his son might copy his father's controlling behavior, or vice versa.
The kids then learn that these same patterns are okay,
and the cycle continues.
Meanwhile, the damage spreads into the workplace and friendships and
communities, and it creates this whole web of hurt that can last for generations.
And this is why every culture has warnings about this kind of behavior,
whether in religious teachings or fairy tales or family wisdom.
They have recognized long ago how this type of relationship
doesn't just hurt one person.
It creates waves of trauma that can impact and affect families
and communities for years to come.
So let's wrap this up today.
A lot of times I really do think that life's journey can feel like you're
walking through a thunderstorm and not the fun kind, especially when you've
experienced relationships where they made you question your own reality
and your own sanity and you've wasted so much emotional time and energy
trying to figure out what's wrong with you because here's the truth.
Nothing.
You are an amazing, wonderful human being.
And you're here on this earth for the very first time and you're having
experiences and those cause you to have thoughts and feelings and emotions.
So check that out.
You're not broken.
You're human.
The only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth.
Your emotions are not too much.
You're not too sensitive.
And you absolutely deserve to be seen and heard.
And for someone to be curious about what your experience is.
Think back to that little child that you once were.
Feeling all the big emotions.
But being told to calm down, or stop crying, or don't worry
about it, or it's not a big deal.
But you did feel like it was a big deal, and you were trying to express that.
And those moments, I really think they leave imprints on your soul.
They are teaching you, though, to hide parts of yourself away.
and I really think that , our little kids in us, that they think, Okay.
I'm going to grow this big, giant adult, and then they're going to
be able to heal us, because we're going to have to do that ourselves.
And so, as a little kid, whether it's subconscious or consciously, you might
have thought, Okay, growing up, when I'm bigger then I'm going to have a voice.
Then I'm going to be in a good relationship.
Growing up would fix everything.
That having an adult body and an adult experience would finally give
you the validation that you craved.
But instead, you find yourself still carrying around those old patterns,
still seeking permission to feel, or still looking for somebody
else to tell you that you're okay.
But here is the beautiful truth.
You actually don't need anybody else's permission to be who you are.
Your very unique combination of experiences, hopes and dreams and
yeah, even your pain, they are all valid parts of your story.
You're not walking around on this earth to be somebody else's version of perfect.
You're here to be authentically, unapologetically you.
Because remember those feelings that you were told to suppress?
I believe they were actually trying to protect you.
They were trying to guide you.
They were trying to tell you something important about your needs, and your
boundaries, and your wants, and your dreams, and your hopes, and your desires.
They weren't too much.
The people around you, bless their hearts, just didn't know how to handle them.
But now as an adult, you have the power to become the supportive, loving
presence that inner child in you has always needed, has always craved.
You're not broken, you're human.
And being human means having the courage to feel deeply to love fully, to live
authentically, and your journey to healing isn't about becoming a different person.
It's about embracing who you've always been because you are
enough exactly as you are.
Thanks for joining me on this journey.
If you have thoughts, questions, experiences that today brought
up for you, please share them.
Reach out to me.
Contact at tonyoverbay.
com.
Tune in next week.
The Death by a Thousand Cuts.
I've got a really exciting announcement to make around a concept of a Patreon.
And we'll save that for next time.
Taking us out.
The anthem.
The theme of waking up to narcissism.
Not my job.
And thank you,
Riley hope
, for this amazing song.
Have a great week, everybody.
We'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.