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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome to episode 124 of
Waking Up to Narcissism.

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I am your host, Tony Overbay.

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I'm a licensed marriage and
family therapist and host of

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the Virtual Couch Love ADHD.

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And, uh, I would love for you to
follow me on social media at virtual.

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couch on Instagram, at
virtualcouch on TikTok.

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You'll find me on YouTube, actually
the Virtual Couch Podcast Network.

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And you can watch , this podcast
right now on YouTube, . And.

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, sign up for the newsletter.

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It's either in the link tree, , wherever
you're listening to this, watching this,

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go, go find that, , or go to tonyoverbay.

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com,  I want all of your questions, I
want your questions about narcissism,

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emotional immaturity, I want the text
messages that you get from yourer lover.

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Alright.

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Your partner.

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And if you're curious on, Hey, is this
gaslighting or how do I respond to this?

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Because I would love to feature
more of those on upcoming episodes.

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If you have general mental health
questions,  if you follow me on

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any of the social media platforms,
I do live question and answer.

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Sessions with my daughter,
McKinley, my daughter, Sidney.

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We do those quite often, typically , on
a  Sunday night, sometime during the week.

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So send me those questions.

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I would love it.

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That'd be wonderful.

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What a, what an incredible
song by Riley hope.

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, , I really feel like I have found
my anthem for waking up to

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narcissism, Riley song, not my job.

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And I'm just grateful that, that
we connected and that she has

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allowed me to put her track here.

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And I'll also have a list in
the show notes of all the places

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that you can find her music.

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And I'm sure you can find it wherever
you, you stream your music, but I'll

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have some links in there as well.

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So let's get to today's episode.

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First.

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The disclaimer, and I wish I could do
this in such a cool movie trailer voice.

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The names and distinguishing
characteristics of the following

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story have been changed, but it is
absolutely based on a true story.

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So a client recently told me
about a friend of theirs, and

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we'll call their friend Evander.

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That is not their real name.

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Not really even close.

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But Evander is a very friendly, well
liked guy known for being agreeable,

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Evander is easy going, and according to
my client, and we will call my client

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Sam, again, not her real name and
not really very close either, but Sam

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says that Evander is truly one of the
funniest human beings on the planet.

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Sam said that Evander doesn't like to
make waves and often just goes along with

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others ideas, but then she also hears
him have just hilarious takes and jokes

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about, you know, He's gone along with
when they get together one on one, but

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she believes, and he often says that he is
truly just a go with the flow kind of guy.

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And so one evening, Amanda's friends
invite him to attend a social club that

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is in their area that hosts regular
events around the town where they live.

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The club's organizers are well known
in the community and they do really

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good work with local charities, but.

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They are also tied to various stories
about some bad business dealings, the

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kind where the phrase, um, well, it's,
uh, it's business, business is business,

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which personally drives me insane.

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I don't like hearing that because in
my experience, that typically means

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that something, , pretty, pretty shady,
or maybe not even necessarily shady,

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but something manipulative is going on
where somebody is hiding behind this.

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This concept of, Hey, it's just business.

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Because it's in essence saying, that's
what I'm allowed to just, just look out

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for me and have no regard for anyone else
because  I get personal gain from it.

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Because what often follows the,
Hey, it's business is, well,

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what were you supposed to do?

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Again, it's business.

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Sam said, a couple of the guys tied
to the club are known to make ,  very

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offensive comments about different
groups of people, ethnicities of

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people in the community, but Evander
recently started his own business.

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And so he was absolutely thrilled to
get the invite to this club because he

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desperately wants to play a larger role
in the overall social scene in their town.

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And he knows that that could potentially
really help out his business.

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, Evander has also learned that there
are a few of his other friends and

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some business associates that he was
aware of that are part of this club.

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, he figures it's a good thing.

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So, he decides to join
and then he brushes off.

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The occasional off color remark is,
hey, they're just joking around.

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You know, everybody, everybody's
a, everybody likes a good joke.

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Over time though, Sam said that
the off color jokes, the remarks,

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they started to really bother her.

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And Sam and Evander have always been
close and Sam has very strong opinions.

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And she said that she values respect.

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She values justice.

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She values inclusion.

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The more that Sam talks to Evander
about the club or the meetings or

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the people that are involved, the
more he starts taking on more of

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the tone and the vibe of the club.

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There's that concept of where you find
that , you are, what is the phrase , you

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are a, some of  the five people you
spend the most time around, , it is

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something to be aware of because I
don't know if you ever noticed that

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sometimes you start taking on the.

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Conversational style, some of the
words, some of the mannerisms of people

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that you spend a lot of time around.

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Sam started noticing that
Evander was doing that.

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So Sam eventually questioned Evander
about it and asked, Hey, why, why are

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you still involved when the club's
values don't really seem to align

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with your overall friendly and what I
thought that you also had an inclusive

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nature and Evander got a little put off
and responded that he doesn't really

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necessarily agree with the comments.

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But he stays because of the
opportunities and the connections

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that he gets through the club.

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And Evander reassures Sam that it's
just, just something that you just

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need to learn to overlook because he
believes that it's just a small part

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of an otherwise positive experience.

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So as time passes, Sam notices that
Evander is less open and actually less

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respectful in certain conversations
as though the club's attitude

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has started to influence his own.

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And so then Evander dismisses
Sam's concerns and claims that his

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membership in this club doesn't really
mean anything about his character.

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But Sam realizes that in a way, Evander
has chosen more, maybe it's more the

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convenience over his own principles or
not wanting to deal with uncomfortable

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things, or he's desperately craving
this validation from this larger

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group of people that he admires.

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Almost like the cool kids club.

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And so she sees them often squirm
around topics that he once didn't

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squirm when they would talk about.

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But when she tried to talk to him
about those things, he immediately

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defends himself without asking
Sam any questions about what is

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she seeing from her vantage point?

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Maybe help him understand his blind spots.

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But she was expressing genuine
concern over her friend because

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she had this unique view of him.

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And she was owning that
that was a, her thing.

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She felt like she was seeing what
accommodations that embracing this new

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club, their leaders and the character
and their morals of those individuals was

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doing to him, despite his absolute denial
that he was changing at all or adopting

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any of the values or morals of the group.

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And that incident along with the day to
day doing and being , that is happening.

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Has left me thinking a lot lately about
my own sense of self or a sense that

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unfortunately, I feel like I've only
started to build over the past few years.

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And in a few weeks, I will be
celebrating my 55th birthday.

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But I look back realizing that for
a long time, I was walking around

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trying to be the person that I
thought others wanted me to be.

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Kind of like Evander in this story
that I was trying to get people to

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like me, to be comfortable with me so
that maybe they would even love me.

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But that led to constantly
questioning myself and I'm

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wondering, what is wrong with me?

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And what do I need to do in order
for people to actually want to

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know who I am or be curious?

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And then it hits me, if I don't
know myself, then how on earth am

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I going to be able to love myself?

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And that really is a me issue.

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And so once I embrace that, I
started the hard, but I think

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incredibly rewarding journey of
discovering who I am, finding myself.

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And, and starting to really love myself.

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And so just like a Vander is
confronted by the need to make a

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choice about his own character.

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Then I realized that getting to know
myself really did mean discovering what

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were my true values, not just going
along with the flow to avoid conflict.

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It might've been something I
was modeled  , in my childhood.

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, ,  it becomes a  difficult, but  freeing
journey learning to be,, authentically

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yourself, even when those around you
have different expectations of who

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you are or their own experiences,
and they want you to validate them.

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It means that instead of.

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Waiting for others to define me,
I had to look inward and I had to

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learn to self validate and I had
to learn to find peace and purpose

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in my own values and character.

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I think this is so applicable
to the Waking Up To Narcissism

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audience because you have people
that , that have been managing

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other people's emotions, anxieties.

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. But if you are one of those people who are
starting to wake up to your own emotional

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immaturity or narcissistic traits or
tendencies, then I would imagine there

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is a bit of a, I don't know who I am.

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So that part is similar on both sides
of the fence from the pathologically

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kind to the emotionally immature.

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That we truly didn't
know what we didn't know.

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And you're starting to go on this journey
of figuring out who you really are.

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And as cliched as it
sounds, here's the truth.

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You're good.

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You're pretty amazing because you're
the only version of you that walks the

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face of this earth with your nature
and your nurture and your birth order

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and your DNA and your abandonment,
your rejection, your hopes, your fears,

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your dreams, walking around on this
spinning ball of dirt, and you bring

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something so unique to the table.

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So when you recognize that.

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And when you embrace that inherent worth
and your true value, then you no longer

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need others to define or even accept you.

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Because you become able to operate
from this place of integrity, acting

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in alignment with who you truly are,
And I think as I see others that are

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struggling with this journey, which
is what you do as a mental health

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professional, I can't help but hope
that they will get there to discovering

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the values that feel right to them.

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The values that are at their core,
because it's those values, our morals,

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our principles that define our character.

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When we act from that place of integrity,
then people know us for who we really are.

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And while it's a deeply personal
journey, I sometimes worry that many

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of us , like Evander are on paths
that might lead to places of regret,

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because it's really easy to get caught
up in being agreeable, , to fitting in.

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But if those actions aren't in harmony
with your true character, then they

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ultimately can't bring you peace.

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Instead, , they keep you from living as
the fullest, truest version of yourself.

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Because as you start to figure out
who you are and you bring to the table

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every bit of your own true self, when
you recognize that your inherent worth,

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, your true value, then everybody else
who's trying to tell you how you're

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supposed to think and feel and do.

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I mean, they can, they
can go bless themselves.

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Because you're good, you love yourself,
you have love to give, not so that you'll

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be okay, but because you already are okay,
and you've discovered yourself, you've

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chosen yourself, you love yourself, so
now, let's have a healthy relationship,

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where we come together as two
individuals with different experiences,

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and now let's go experience life
because life is here to be experienced.

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And it's a lot of fun when you can
experience that with another person who is

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also just on that path of being and doing.

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But , as I've been on this path of
self discovery that I think I've

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also stepped out of my role as the
nice guy, the people pleaser, the

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emotionally immature person who self
sacrificed for everybody around me.

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And now I see things a little differently.

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And I think what breaks my heart are
all the people that I care about.

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Even those I don't know who I do
worry are still on that journey

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of trying to find themselves and
not realizing that your true self

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discovery means finding your own values

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and your own morals, the values and morals
that you are okay with at your very core.

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Because those values, those morals, those
are what help you develop your character.

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And when you act in alignment
with your character, now you're

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operating from a place of integrity.

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And people will start to trust
that you are who you say you are.

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, I know that this is a me issue, but I
see people desperately trying to find

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themselves in ways that, again, I worry
that they'll regret someday because they

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may come to realize that their actions
weren't truly in harmony with their

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real character because character and
integrity aren't just about the values

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that we openly, I don't know, champion.

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So let's, let's talk about integrity
for a minute, because I want to make the

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distinction between integrity and your
character, because I think those two

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things are, they're often misunderstood.

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They're often viewed , as the same.

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And one I do think really
plays into the other.

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So think of integrity as keeping your
promises, whether it's to yourself

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or whether it's to others, but it's
staying true to your values and

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then not bending them even when it's
tough or when nobody's watching, even

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when there's pressure from others.

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To change your behavior.

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If you don't really feel like that
is something that is true to you.

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So integrity is more about
aligning what you say and what

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you do with what you believe.

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And that's one of these things
where I think it's so important

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to have integrity in order to
become more emotionally consistent.

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And it's really like being your own
anchor, no matter what the situation

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is, you're going to stay steady in
who you are and what you stand for.

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Now we'll talk more about differentiation
a little bit later on , in the show.

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And I do believe that our goal is to
have a solid, but flexible sense of self.

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So even when I'm operating from a
place of integrity, which there's my

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anchor, but I am open to someone's.

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Feedback because that I do wanna be the
very best version of me, but ultimately

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I'm anchored in me and not trying
to, , , bad analogy hand the anchor

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00:13:11,229 --> 00:13:13,209
over to someone else to lug me around,

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.
An example might be, imagine somebody
, , who values honesty and they tell

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00:13:17,669 --> 00:13:21,269
their friends, they tell everybody
around that they are  committed always

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to being straightforward with them.

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And what's funny is in the world of
narcissism or emotional immaturity.

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You'll often hear this phrase,
well, you know, me, and I feel like

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that's the person saying, right?

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I mean, this is, this is what you
think I am versus do I know myself?

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00:13:36,999 --> 00:13:40,983
So if you take this person that prides
himself on being very honest and very

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straightforward, but then  take one
evening where then, you know, this

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00:13:45,073 --> 00:13:48,533
other friend asks the person who's going
to be honest for some really honest

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feedback, because I know you're always
honest with me on some personal project.

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00:13:52,513 --> 00:13:54,913
, some names, , let's go
with a friend's reference.

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00:13:54,913 --> 00:13:58,993
So we'll say that, , Monica is the honest
one  , and she just says, I'm always

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honest, you know, me, I'm always honest.

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And then Rachel comes up to her
and says, okay, Monica, I know

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you're always honest with me.

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I really need some honest feedback on
a personal project that I'm working on.

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But now all of a sudden, Monica feels
pretty uncomfortable sharing her real

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thoughts because she really doesn't
want to hurt Rachel's feelings.

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So instead, she gives kind of vague,
maybe overly positive feedback, but it

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really doesn't reflect on how she feels.

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Now, in that case, , then Monica
is compromising her integrity.

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Now, she values honesty, but then her
fear of causing discomfort leads her to

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00:14:32,228 --> 00:14:34,018
act out of alignment with that value.

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But here's where that solid and
flexible sense of self comes in.

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Because maybe then, honesty,
brutal honesty, blunt honesty,

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00:14:40,668 --> 00:14:43,038
isn't necessarily her core value.

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And she maybe has more of a
value of compassion is what

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she's noticing in this situation.

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But rather than providing the constructive
feedback that you know her, she's always

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going to give you, then she sacrifices
her principle of honesty for the

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00:14:56,708 --> 00:15:01,128
sake of keeping things calm, or maybe
taking a little bit of an easier route.

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And I give this example For a reason,
because when I'm doing values work with

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people, and I talk a lot about this on
the virtual couch podcast, when you're

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00:15:09,823 --> 00:15:12,733
talking about the concept of acceptance
and commitment therapy, which I love,

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once you realize that there's nothing
wrong with you, you're human, you're

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not broken, you're going through life
for the very first time as you, so check

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that out, these are experiences that
you're having, then you can start to

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look at, okay, well, now what do I do?

286
00:15:24,623 --> 00:15:26,073
And I need to figure out my values.

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00:15:26,358 --> 00:15:31,238
It's really quite a journey to start
figuring out what is important to you.

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00:15:31,238 --> 00:15:33,518
And you have to go and interact
with the world in order to figure

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00:15:33,518 --> 00:15:34,628
out what is important to me.

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00:15:34,978 --> 00:15:38,628
So someone might say, I have a very,
very strong value of honesty, but

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00:15:38,628 --> 00:15:42,028
then they're met with people who
are asking them for their opinion.

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00:15:42,398 --> 00:15:46,018
And they, they realize, Oh, well, I don't
want to hurt this person's feelings.

293
00:15:46,508 --> 00:15:50,138
So if your value is honesty, and
that is your core value, and you're

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00:15:50,138 --> 00:15:53,878
going to act in a way that is going
to be in alignment with your, who

295
00:15:53,878 --> 00:15:55,608
you are, what it's like to be you.

296
00:15:55,608 --> 00:15:59,148
And you want to come from a place of
integrity, , then the yeah buts that

297
00:15:59,148 --> 00:16:01,978
are going to come along are, yeah, but
I might hurt this person's feelings.

298
00:16:02,648 --> 00:16:07,788
And we're saying, okay, well, I might,
but that's not necessarily a productive

299
00:16:07,788 --> 00:16:13,488
or helpful thought if I am going to act
from this place of integrity and I'm

300
00:16:13,488 --> 00:16:15,718
going to honor my core value of honesty.

301
00:16:15,718 --> 00:16:19,708
But what you might find in that
situation is now I'm realizing I

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00:16:19,718 --> 00:16:21,118
have more of a value of compassion.

303
00:16:21,318 --> 00:16:23,678
So then the yeah, but might
be, well, yeah, but you're

304
00:16:23,678 --> 00:16:25,038
not really going to be honest.

305
00:16:25,693 --> 00:16:29,283
And then we're accepting that, Oh,
I'm not even arguing that because

306
00:16:29,283 --> 00:16:32,343
that's not a productive thought
toward my value of compassion.

307
00:16:32,393 --> 00:16:35,973
I really think that the more we
realize , that we're, it's okay to

308
00:16:35,973 --> 00:16:38,513
be us, then we can start to interact.

309
00:16:38,543 --> 00:16:42,503
We can start to, to not need somebody
else to tell me what I'm thinking

310
00:16:42,503 --> 00:16:46,163
or how I'm feeling or what to do
or what I should be doing because

311
00:16:46,163 --> 00:16:47,173
nobody likes to be should on.

312
00:16:47,973 --> 00:16:50,843
And then I can start to recognize
what my values are and when I'm

313
00:16:50,843 --> 00:16:53,993
acting in accordance with those
values and I'm showing up pretty

314
00:16:53,993 --> 00:16:57,583
consistent with that, now I'm
operating from a place of integrity.

315
00:16:58,283 --> 00:17:02,453
Because in this situation, , Monica's
lack of integrity could start to harm

316
00:17:02,453 --> 00:17:06,043
the trust of their friendship , if
Rachel really senses that that was

317
00:17:06,053 --> 00:17:10,593
insincere later, or learns that Monica
didn't give the honest feedback that,

318
00:17:10,683 --> 00:17:12,313
that Rachel was really asking for.

319
00:17:13,013 --> 00:17:16,003
That misalignment, I think is really
subtle, but I think it's pretty

320
00:17:16,003 --> 00:17:20,038
significant because acting with integrity,
Would then involve Monica finding a way

321
00:17:20,038 --> 00:17:23,508
to communicate her thoughts constructively
and kindly and I think that's where we

322
00:17:23,508 --> 00:17:26,378
jump back into the all or nothing black
or white thinking where we assume that,

323
00:17:26,808 --> 00:17:30,018
okay, well, I guess I got to be brutally
honest, but , , if that is one of my core

324
00:17:30,018 --> 00:17:34,508
values, I'm going to act from a place
of integrity and this person  Knows me

325
00:17:34,508 --> 00:17:38,098
as somebody that is willing to deal with
the discomfort and provide constructive

326
00:17:38,098 --> 00:17:42,198
feedback, knowing that it is my feedback
is my opinion on what you're doing.

327
00:17:42,198 --> 00:17:46,098
And I think that's this whole significant
thing as well, because you're ultimately

328
00:17:46,098 --> 00:17:49,858
the one who knows what is best for you,
but I'm willing to provide my feedback.

329
00:17:50,303 --> 00:17:51,553
, 
, okay, let's go with another example.

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00:17:51,713 --> 00:17:54,133
We'll go with the fictional
characters, Tom and Jerry, but

331
00:17:54,133 --> 00:17:55,803
this is based off real life events.

332
00:17:56,213 --> 00:17:59,363
So let's say you've got somebody named
Tom and Tom presents himself as somebody

333
00:17:59,363 --> 00:18:01,003
who has pretty high moral character.

334
00:18:01,473 --> 00:18:04,103
And he  regularly speaks about
the importance of respect and

335
00:18:04,113 --> 00:18:08,243
kindness and fairness , and
equality and inclusiveness and,

336
00:18:08,293 --> 00:18:12,983
.
, he volunteers in his community and he
helps, , I want to say homeless pets at

337
00:18:12,983 --> 00:18:15,413
a shelter, but he's a really good person.

338
00:18:15,463 --> 00:18:19,113
He's involved in his church community
and he condemns behaviors like

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00:18:19,113 --> 00:18:21,103
dishonesty or cruelty and others.

340
00:18:21,573 --> 00:18:24,003
And he really prides
himself on, on these values.

341
00:18:24,003 --> 00:18:27,903
He sees himself as a principled person
who sets a strong example for others.

342
00:18:28,023 --> 00:18:29,283
And  this is real.

343
00:18:29,353 --> 00:18:31,383
People do see Tom as this person.

344
00:18:31,893 --> 00:18:33,453
One day Tom meets Jerry.

345
00:18:33,718 --> 00:18:38,878
Jerry is this charismatic new friend
who , is very, ,  prideful, but

346
00:18:38,878 --> 00:18:42,988
also seems to be  successful and
he's  pretty,  charming  at times.

347
00:18:43,698 --> 00:18:47,408
And so Jerry is openly dismissive,
though, of others feelings.

348
00:18:47,898 --> 00:18:52,308
He'll make an offensive joke at somebody
else's expense, and then he will, on

349
00:18:52,308 --> 00:18:55,548
occasion, when he's just around his
friends, he'll boast about manipulating

350
00:18:55,548 --> 00:18:56,778
people to get whatever he wants.

351
00:18:57,428 --> 00:19:01,398
, despite witnessing Jerry's behavior,
And knowing that it conflicts with,

352
00:19:01,648 --> 00:19:06,428
Tom's own values, Tom's kind of drawn
to Jerry's confidence and his influence.

353
00:19:06,938 --> 00:19:10,808
And he starts to enjoy the perks
of being in Jerry's social circle.

354
00:19:11,051 --> 00:19:11,961
, he rationalizes this.

355
00:19:12,586 --> 00:19:16,426
This disconnect by telling himself that,
you know what, everybody has flaws.

356
00:19:16,536 --> 00:19:17,346
Nobody's perfect.

357
00:19:17,706 --> 00:19:20,836
Or that he can't just, , ignore
Jerry's comments because otherwise,

358
00:19:21,356 --> 00:19:22,946
um, Jerry's pretty fun to be around.

359
00:19:22,966 --> 00:19:24,196
And Jerry's going places.

360
00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:28,236
But by continuing the friendship
without addressing the behavior or

361
00:19:28,246 --> 00:19:32,806
setting boundaries, Tom's starting
to operate without integrity because

362
00:19:32,806 --> 00:19:36,506
he's excusing Jerry's openly harmful
actions and he's failing to live up

363
00:19:36,506 --> 00:19:38,226
to the values that he claims to hold.

364
00:19:38,816 --> 00:19:44,096
And this lack of alignment, it
undermines Tom's own character and he's

365
00:19:44,096 --> 00:19:48,406
essentially prioritizing his desire
for connection or for status or to just

366
00:19:48,416 --> 00:19:53,773
have things be easier in his own mind
Then his, his values, then a stated

367
00:19:53,773 --> 00:19:55,643
commitment to kindness and fairness.

368
00:19:56,353 --> 00:20:00,803
And what is unfortunate is that as
much as that he's now acting out

369
00:20:00,803 --> 00:20:05,713
of alignment with who he claims to
be, he still is assuming that he

370
00:20:05,713 --> 00:20:07,433
is viewed as that person by others.

371
00:20:08,193 --> 00:20:12,383
But then other people will start to
question Tom's authenticity, wondering

372
00:20:12,433 --> 00:20:14,093
how is he willing to overlook behavior?

373
00:20:14,563 --> 00:20:17,373
That he normally condemns and
has condemned his entire life

374
00:20:17,373 --> 00:20:20,583
and condemns every weekend when
he,  attends , his church functions

375
00:20:20,583 --> 00:20:21,973
or when he's out in the community.

376
00:20:22,873 --> 00:20:25,163
And what does that say about him?

377
00:20:25,163 --> 00:20:28,953
Does it reveal that  what will start to be
questioned is  his   high moral character.

378
00:20:29,323 --> 00:20:34,023
It's conditional only when it benefits him
personally, because if Tom was acting with

379
00:20:34,023 --> 00:20:39,073
integrity, he'd confront the inconsistency
either by addressing Jerry's behavior.

380
00:20:39,423 --> 00:20:42,188
Although We're here on
Waking Up to Narcissism.

381
00:20:42,678 --> 00:20:47,288
, you know by now that , you can't give
Jerry the aha moment or the epiphany.

382
00:20:47,778 --> 00:20:52,788
And those who don't know narcissism,
, they believe that Jerry is,  acting from a

383
00:20:52,788 --> 00:20:57,098
place of integrity even though his stance
on things changes every five minutes.

384
00:20:57,668 --> 00:21:00,498
It depends on whoever he's
in front of that it changes.

385
00:21:00,958 --> 00:21:06,201
Tom now is understanding, okay, , this
is my opportunity in my interactions

386
00:21:06,201 --> 00:21:11,001
with Jerry or,  even learning more about
Jerry that that doesn't feel right to me.

387
00:21:11,131 --> 00:21:12,611
There is that cognitive dissonance.

388
00:21:12,611 --> 00:21:15,851
And if I want to act from a place of
integrity, then I need to be willing to

389
00:21:15,851 --> 00:21:19,961
sit with that discomfort, set boundaries
and distance myself from this person.

390
00:21:19,961 --> 00:21:20,401
Because.

391
00:21:20,844 --> 00:21:25,998
At some point,  those who Tom believes he
has influence on, whether it's the members

392
00:21:25,998 --> 00:21:29,788
of his family or his community, they're
also having their own moments and they're

393
00:21:29,788 --> 00:21:33,351
also seeing Jerry's behavior and they're
also starting to recognize, feel like

394
00:21:33,351 --> 00:21:38,231
I'm acting out of alignment with   with
my integrity or my own character if I am

395
00:21:38,231 --> 00:21:45,171
supporting this person so then this is
Tom's opportunity for self confrontation

396
00:21:45,191 --> 00:21:48,031
for growth, to do the right thing.

397
00:21:48,321 --> 00:21:52,271
Even if it is a difficult thing,
, can he now distance himself from

398
00:21:52,351 --> 00:21:55,641
somebody who disregards the values
that Tom claims to hold dear.

399
00:21:56,221 --> 00:21:59,691
Instead of tolerating it, excusing
it, , he's letting his stated principles

400
00:21:59,691 --> 00:22:03,741
take a back seat and that starts to
reveal that his values are negotiable

401
00:22:04,221 --> 00:22:09,281
and they really are contingent upon if
maintaining them, , if it's convenient.

402
00:22:10,181 --> 00:22:13,141
So by character, because
character , is maybe a broader

403
00:22:13,141 --> 00:22:14,881
sense of who you are at your core.

404
00:22:15,281 --> 00:22:18,071
It's a blend of your beliefs
and your habits and your morals.

405
00:22:18,131 --> 00:22:20,821
. The way you handle yourself in both
the good and the challenging times.

406
00:22:21,161 --> 00:22:24,521
So people might describe somebody
with strong character as dependable

407
00:22:24,531 --> 00:22:28,181
or somebody who always seems to know
what the right thing to do is, even

408
00:22:28,181 --> 00:22:29,481
if it's uncomfortable or inconvenient.

409
00:22:30,021 --> 00:22:32,981
That character  , is really
who you are at your core.

410
00:22:33,261 --> 00:22:35,871
And then integrity  is
how you are showing up.

411
00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:39,171
And then character It's the full
package of our choices and our values.

412
00:22:39,181 --> 00:22:41,931
integrity it's how we show
up consistently over time.

413
00:22:42,461 --> 00:22:48,601
The big differentiator of integrity and
character is if someone truly feels like

414
00:22:48,601 --> 00:22:53,901
it's okay , to manipulate others, to
put down those who are less fortunate,

415
00:22:54,291 --> 00:22:58,681
that is their character  they are
acting in a place of integrity because

416
00:22:58,681 --> 00:23:00,641
that's who they are at their very core.

417
00:23:01,051 --> 00:23:05,251
And then their character is if , they
believe it is okay to put down women,

418
00:23:05,261 --> 00:23:10,341
put down, , other, , races, if it's
okay to, , name call, if it's okay to

419
00:23:10,401 --> 00:23:14,841
throw, , jabs And if it's okay to, to
boast, to put people in the one down

420
00:23:14,841 --> 00:23:20,581
position and they really do believe at
their core  , that is okay, then they

421
00:23:20,581 --> 00:23:22,971
are acting from a place of integrity.

422
00:23:23,011 --> 00:23:24,561
And then that is their character.

423
00:23:24,631 --> 00:23:27,901
That is their whole package and how
they show up consistently over time.

424
00:23:28,561 --> 00:23:30,451
And please do not get me wrong.

425
00:23:30,781 --> 00:23:33,181
That is not somebody that want
to hang with my whole point.

426
00:23:33,181 --> 00:23:36,911
There is that what is,  wild and it's
one of the things I'm seeing more

427
00:23:36,971 --> 00:23:38,911
showing up , in my office is that.

428
00:23:39,391 --> 00:23:42,601
I'll give you an example of bringing
up something about triangulation.

429
00:23:42,991 --> 00:23:46,621
With someone and they were saying
that I'm asking other people in your

430
00:23:46,621 --> 00:23:50,681
family, and they also think that you
are doing whatever this thing is  that

431
00:23:50,951 --> 00:23:52,541
let's say the narcissist is accusing.

432
00:23:52,871 --> 00:23:56,741
They're a partner of, and I literally
point out, oh, that's triangulation.

433
00:23:56,791 --> 00:23:57,781
. That's a negative thing.

434
00:23:58,081 --> 00:24:00,001
That's trying to get
someone else involved.

435
00:24:00,301 --> 00:24:03,541
In saying that, okay, if we gang
up on my partner, then maybe I

436
00:24:03,541 --> 00:24:07,151
can get them to bend  to my whim
and do the things I want them to.

437
00:24:07,631 --> 00:24:11,471
And this person essentially said, oh
yeah, yeah, that's what I'm doing.

438
00:24:12,131 --> 00:24:16,631
And there's been other situations
, where , that is who the person is.

439
00:24:17,141 --> 00:24:21,431
And I'm trying not to make a strong
judgment, although I think I'm literally

440
00:24:21,431 --> 00:24:26,351
doing that right now, because if that
person isn't saying, but I, yeah.

441
00:24:26,381 --> 00:24:26,981
Tell me more.

442
00:24:26,981 --> 00:24:27,431
I don't know.

443
00:24:27,431 --> 00:24:28,511
What I don't know is that.

444
00:24:28,871 --> 00:24:30,881
Is that a bad way to show
up in the relationship?

445
00:24:31,191 --> 00:24:35,091
Because if they're not genuinely
curious, And their partner is  saying

446
00:24:35,091 --> 00:24:37,791
this is something I don't appreciate.

447
00:24:38,061 --> 00:24:39,141
That's in the relationship.

448
00:24:39,501 --> 00:24:42,231
And the therapist is saying,
yeah, that's a pretty well

449
00:24:42,231 --> 00:24:43,791
known psychological phenomenon.

450
00:24:44,091 --> 00:24:48,171
That is controlling and will
not build true connection and

451
00:24:48,171 --> 00:24:49,401
intimacy in our relationship.

452
00:24:49,941 --> 00:24:52,671
But then if the person
answering it's like, oh, okay.

453
00:24:52,701 --> 00:24:54,771
But that is what I would like to be doing.

454
00:24:55,461 --> 00:24:57,901
Well, then , they've
defined , their character.

455
00:24:58,471 --> 00:25:01,651
And there are characters that, oh
no, you do control your partner.

456
00:25:02,071 --> 00:25:02,971
So I am acting.

457
00:25:03,361 --> 00:25:04,771
And from a place of integrity.

458
00:25:05,441 --> 00:25:08,161
, , I had one of these situations recently
and I still remember my,  origin

459
00:25:08,191 --> 00:25:11,821
story of the person that sat in my
office and literally just looked me

460
00:25:11,821 --> 00:25:13,471
dead in the eye with his wife there.

461
00:25:13,471 --> 00:25:17,131
And he said, Yeah, I did all
those things when we were dating.

462
00:25:17,161 --> 00:25:17,641
. But yeah.

463
00:25:17,701 --> 00:25:19,861
When now that we've been married,
I don't do any of those things.

464
00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:20,641
Nobody does.

465
00:25:20,701 --> 00:25:21,361
That's not what you do.

466
00:25:21,991 --> 00:25:24,991
And I now realize looking back that,
oh, that was his true character.

467
00:25:25,521 --> 00:25:28,251
That he felt like, oh no, you, of course
you manipulate you manipulate until you

468
00:25:28,251 --> 00:25:29,361
get what you need, then you back off.

469
00:25:29,421 --> 00:25:30,261
That's what everybody does.

470
00:25:30,711 --> 00:25:33,291
Right guys doing the old right
guys thing, looking behind him.

471
00:25:33,291 --> 00:25:33,921
Nobody's there.

472
00:25:34,521 --> 00:25:36,831
Or maybe some other narcissist
and they've got some club.

473
00:25:37,294 --> 00:25:40,404
But in that scenario, , if
that person is willing to say.

474
00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:42,894
But I don't know.

475
00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:44,904
What I don't know is that actually not.

476
00:25:45,534 --> 00:25:46,314
The healthy way.

477
00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:49,404
And I would hope that the fact that
you're sitting in a therapist's office.

478
00:25:49,734 --> 00:25:52,374
Your wife's crying right beside of you
and the therapist is trying to hold his

479
00:25:52,374 --> 00:25:56,604
crap together might be a key that, yeah,
it's probably not the best way to go.

480
00:25:56,604 --> 00:26:00,324
But then you can see where somebody could
just argue so easily because they  are

481
00:26:00,324 --> 00:26:02,154
saying, but you guys don't understand.

482
00:26:02,154 --> 00:26:03,984
This is the way I operate.

483
00:26:03,984 --> 00:26:05,934
But the therapist is so desperately.

484
00:26:05,934 --> 00:26:07,314
No, I can get through to this person.

485
00:26:07,314 --> 00:26:10,314
And the spouse says I couldn't
have picked someone like this.

486
00:26:10,674 --> 00:26:15,084
So maybe it is my job to help, help
convince him, or am I supposed to learn

487
00:26:15,354 --> 00:26:17,064
how to not have needs in a relationship?

488
00:26:17,511 --> 00:26:18,351
To be clear.

489
00:26:18,951 --> 00:26:21,501
When someone, when that is who
they are, that is their character.

490
00:26:21,501 --> 00:26:23,031
And they're operating
from a place of integrity.

491
00:26:23,871 --> 00:26:27,061
And that's the kind of behavior that
will ultimately harm his reputation.

492
00:26:27,871 --> 00:26:30,801
Because as people start to recognize
the inconsistency between his words

493
00:26:30,801 --> 00:26:34,891
and his actions, Then  he will be
less dependable, less reliable.

494
00:26:34,891 --> 00:26:36,011
People will go to him less.

495
00:26:36,491 --> 00:26:40,381
So enter the world of narcissism,
where now gaslighting is a

496
00:26:40,381 --> 00:26:41,481
childhood defense mechanism.

497
00:26:41,971 --> 00:26:45,901
If somebody lacks this real sense
of self, and then , they are trying

498
00:26:45,901 --> 00:26:48,101
to act from a place of integrity.

499
00:26:48,491 --> 00:26:49,921
Well, they don't really know who they are.

500
00:26:49,981 --> 00:26:51,951
So integrity is somewhat out the window.

501
00:26:51,951 --> 00:26:56,881
But their character can change like the
wind, it can go different directions.

502
00:26:57,281 --> 00:26:58,591
There's no consistency.

503
00:26:59,051 --> 00:27:03,821
I think you can start to see why it's
so important to know who you are, to be

504
00:27:03,821 --> 00:27:08,011
able to operate from a place of integrity
and then do that consistently so that

505
00:27:08,011 --> 00:27:10,281
you can show what your character is.

506
00:27:10,331 --> 00:27:13,781
Character that is the set of
moral and ethical qualities that

507
00:27:13,781 --> 00:27:15,351
define who we are at our core.

508
00:27:16,091 --> 00:27:20,721
Shaped by beliefs, values, habits, and
it really does show and reflect how we

509
00:27:20,721 --> 00:27:23,891
approach ourselves, others, and the world.

510
00:27:24,726 --> 00:27:28,186
And a person's character is often
judged by the, the qualities

511
00:27:28,186 --> 00:27:32,106
that they consistently show, like
honesty, empathy, dependability.

512
00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:36,126
So somebody with strong characters
develop those qualities deeply, they

513
00:27:36,126 --> 00:27:40,896
are deeply rooted in them, , and they
will   be known for sticking to them.

514
00:27:41,656 --> 00:27:42,306
Integrity.

515
00:27:42,646 --> 00:27:46,166
is about aligning one's actions with
those core values and principles.

516
00:27:46,339 --> 00:27:48,769
Living out the character
that they believe in.

517
00:27:48,769 --> 00:27:51,209
Integrity means acting in ways
that reflect your values, even when

518
00:27:51,209 --> 00:27:53,119
it's difficult or inconvenient.

519
00:27:53,309 --> 00:27:56,569
, it's this bridge between believing
in certain qualities and then

520
00:27:56,569 --> 00:27:59,289
consistently practicing them,
which requires self awareness.

521
00:27:59,309 --> 00:28:02,469
It requires a lot of courage to
act from a place of integrity

522
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:05,689
.
A person might have really strong
character in theory, but they

523
00:28:05,689 --> 00:28:08,529
lack integrity if they don't
follow through with their values.

524
00:28:09,349 --> 00:28:12,999
And on the flip side, integrity
strengthens your character because each

525
00:28:13,019 --> 00:28:17,439
action that aligns with one's values,
it's like going to character and integrity

526
00:28:17,449 --> 00:28:19,629
gym, reinforces who you really are.

527
00:28:19,629 --> 00:28:23,849
But,   character and integrity aren't just
about the values that we openly believe.

528
00:28:24,589 --> 00:28:27,229
They're also shaped by the behaviors
and actions that we're willing to

529
00:28:27,229 --> 00:28:30,129
accept or ignore or rationalize.

530
00:28:30,769 --> 00:28:34,589
So in this sense, what we choose to
even dismiss can reveal just as much

531
00:28:34,589 --> 00:28:36,689
about us as what we stand up for.

532
00:28:36,899 --> 00:28:40,189
, it's about where our own
internal deal breakers lie.

533
00:28:40,239 --> 00:28:44,719
. For example, if we encounter behaviors
, that conflict with our principles

534
00:28:44,826 --> 00:28:48,193
with our values,  but we still choose
to look the other way for personal

535
00:28:48,193 --> 00:28:51,723
reasons, then we really might be
compromising part of our character.

536
00:28:52,413 --> 00:28:55,433
And this process of questioning
what we accept or allow is in

537
00:28:55,433 --> 00:28:56,953
itself, an act of integrity.

538
00:28:57,988 --> 00:29:00,158
Because I think that , we're all
faced with these moments where

539
00:29:00,158 --> 00:29:01,938
our values clash with our choices.

540
00:29:01,948 --> 00:29:06,258
And how do we reconcile , those
tensions, that discomfort by asking

541
00:29:06,258 --> 00:29:09,618
yourself, what does it say about
me if I'm willing to overlook this?

542
00:29:10,483 --> 00:29:14,263
, we can explore character as a journey
of self reflection where each decision

543
00:29:14,263 --> 00:29:17,793
informs who we are and how we're seen by
others, often in ways that we might not

544
00:29:17,793 --> 00:29:21,813
even anticipate, because I think this
really speaks to the essence of character

545
00:29:21,813 --> 00:29:26,573
and integrity, because I really hope that
as you're starting to wake up to either

546
00:29:26,593 --> 00:29:29,613
the emotional immaturity or narcissism
in your relationship and recognizing

547
00:29:29,613 --> 00:29:33,233
that now it's a time to figure out who
you are, or again, you're waking up

548
00:29:33,233 --> 00:29:37,303
to your own emotional immaturity, Or
narcissistic traits and tendencies that

549
00:29:37,303 --> 00:29:39,403
it is time to figure out who you are.

550
00:29:39,403 --> 00:29:45,553
Because I think that we really need to
examine what we allow or what we excuse in

551
00:29:45,553 --> 00:29:50,373
our lives and our relationships  and  , in
our interactions,  I think those decisions

552
00:29:50,553 --> 00:29:53,183
do start to echo in our own sense of self.

553
00:29:53,463 --> 00:29:57,463
When life pressures kick in, whether we're
talking about work, stress, relationship

554
00:29:57,463 --> 00:30:01,473
strain, financial worries, integrity
and character are going to get tested.

555
00:30:02,413 --> 00:30:05,423
And for one, staying true to your
values might mean making choices that

556
00:30:05,423 --> 00:30:07,183
aren't the easiest or the most popular.

557
00:30:07,773 --> 00:30:10,613
You know, integrity can be tough because
it often requires us to sacrifice

558
00:30:10,613 --> 00:30:12,633
comfort or immediate gratification.

559
00:30:12,643 --> 00:30:15,183
We might even find that some
friendships don't want to stay around.

560
00:30:15,183 --> 00:30:18,503
, it's a bit like a workout for your
moral muscles, being consistent

561
00:30:18,533 --> 00:30:20,243
in who you are takes resilience.

562
00:30:20,673 --> 00:30:23,573
And I think character can also be tested
because sometimes, especially when we're

563
00:30:23,573 --> 00:30:27,203
feeling insecure, it's tempting to just
cut corners, justify behaviors, slip

564
00:30:27,203 --> 00:30:29,263
into a, , just this one time mindset.

565
00:30:29,683 --> 00:30:32,493
And then the more we give in, the
easier it becomes to shift away

566
00:30:32,493 --> 00:30:34,178
from who we actually want to be.

567
00:30:34,398 --> 00:30:37,778
, life's pressures don't just test us
once, they'll keep on challenging us,

568
00:30:37,778 --> 00:30:41,288
making it essential to really know who
you are, reflect regularly on whether

569
00:30:41,288 --> 00:30:46,918
you are staying aligned with the values
that matter most., how do integrity

570
00:30:46,918 --> 00:30:48,418
and character play into this podcast?

571
00:30:48,468 --> 00:30:49,818
How do they play into your relationships?

572
00:30:49,978 --> 00:30:52,008
Because I think when it comes
to relationships, integrity

573
00:30:52,008 --> 00:30:54,488
and character can be a game
changer, but they're also tricky.

574
00:30:54,648 --> 00:30:57,748
, for example, being in a relationship
might bring situations where you're

575
00:30:57,748 --> 00:31:00,118
tempted to say something that you
don't believe just to keep the peace.

576
00:31:01,338 --> 00:31:04,278
And I'm pretty sure they shared a little
while ago that I want to start bringing

577
00:31:04,278 --> 00:31:07,518
more awareness around what a healthy
relationship would look like because.

578
00:31:08,238 --> 00:31:10,098
If you are listening at this point.

579
00:31:10,608 --> 00:31:13,998
I do believe that you're waiting
for , the unicorn part of the

580
00:31:13,998 --> 00:31:16,188
story, the rainbow, the pot of gold.

581
00:31:16,518 --> 00:31:19,958
Because if you are trying to express
. Your self from a place of integrity

582
00:31:19,958 --> 00:31:23,918
right now, most likely it is going to
be turned around and thrown back on you.

583
00:31:24,248 --> 00:31:26,168
And I think that's part
of the significance.

584
00:31:26,198 --> 00:31:27,568
I think of  today's podcast.

585
00:31:27,988 --> 00:31:31,528
Because even if you were starting to
develop a little bit of your own sense

586
00:31:31,528 --> 00:31:36,258
of self or starting to recognize that
something like kindness,  compassion,

587
00:31:36,288 --> 00:31:40,218
empathy, that those are part of , your
character, but then if you are

588
00:31:40,218 --> 00:31:42,418
acting , from a place of integrity.

589
00:31:42,868 --> 00:31:43,828
Those things were then.

590
00:31:44,218 --> 00:31:45,328
Turned around on you.

591
00:31:46,018 --> 00:31:49,388
In, in the form of gaslighting or
in the form of  making you feel

592
00:31:49,388 --> 00:31:52,538
bad about your kindness or about
your empathy or your compassion.

593
00:31:53,078 --> 00:31:56,378
And I still remember working with
someone and we were talking about

594
00:31:56,378 --> 00:31:59,678
how that becomes a sense of betrayal.

595
00:31:59,918 --> 00:32:03,458
And I think that it's almost
handled similarly to work.

596
00:32:03,458 --> 00:32:04,688
I do with betrayal trauma.

597
00:32:05,108 --> 00:32:08,378
Where you are going into this
relationship and you've brought ,  your

598
00:32:08,468 --> 00:32:13,288
junior or baby version of , your
character based off of your growing up.

599
00:32:13,318 --> 00:32:15,058
And now you're bringing
it into this relationship.

600
00:32:15,418 --> 00:32:16,738
And saying, Hey, here's my heart.

601
00:32:16,818 --> 00:32:17,028
Here.

602
00:32:17,058 --> 00:32:18,048
My emotions.

603
00:32:18,438 --> 00:32:22,008
And I'm going to trust you with them and
this person saying that's not who you are.

604
00:32:22,608 --> 00:32:23,418
And then you are.

605
00:32:23,568 --> 00:32:27,078
Are desperately fighting to say, but
this is, and I need to figure out a

606
00:32:27,078 --> 00:32:30,338
way to communicate to this person that
is not only unwilling , to hear it or

607
00:32:30,338 --> 00:32:33,458
communicate about it, but they're going
to actually turn it back around on you

608
00:32:33,458 --> 00:32:37,328
because they know that's important to
you and tell you that that is not who you

609
00:32:37,328 --> 00:32:41,558
are and put you in that one down position
so that they can maintain control.

610
00:32:42,128 --> 00:32:42,548
Because it

611
00:32:42,578 --> 00:32:46,168
they lack a sense of self , to the point
where they just need another interaction

612
00:32:46,168 --> 00:32:48,028
with a human to know that they exist.

613
00:32:48,028 --> 00:32:50,368
But the way that they exist
is to make themselves.

614
00:32:50,758 --> 00:32:56,434
In a one-up position and that is so
much of The injustice of what being

615
00:32:56,434 --> 00:32:59,434
in a relationship with someone who
is emotionally immature or has these

616
00:32:59,434 --> 00:33:01,054
narcissistic traits and tendencies.

617
00:33:01,384 --> 00:33:04,964
That's why that can feel so  wrong
because you're starting to develop your

618
00:33:04,964 --> 00:33:08,204
true sense of self as you start to get
out of adolescence and into adulthood.

619
00:33:08,504 --> 00:33:11,144
And now it can speed up the process.

620
00:33:11,444 --> 00:33:13,904
If you are in a, an emotionally
healthy relationship.

621
00:33:14,334 --> 00:33:17,064
, as we say, in the world of emotionally
focused therapy, we're actually

622
00:33:17,064 --> 00:33:19,584
designed to deal with emotion
in concert with another human.

623
00:33:19,824 --> 00:33:21,691
But concert of emotion should not be.

624
00:33:22,141 --> 00:33:24,361
, I can't even think of a
great, a funny analogy here.

625
00:33:24,751 --> 00:33:27,361
But it shouldn't be that  you're
hitting each other over the

626
00:33:27,361 --> 00:33:28,861
heads with your tubas, I guess.

627
00:33:29,251 --> 00:33:30,061
But it should be.

628
00:33:30,061 --> 00:33:33,331
You're learning how to play this music
together and you're open to feedback.

629
00:33:33,331 --> 00:33:36,991
Because you only bring yourself , to
the relationship and here somebody

630
00:33:37,021 --> 00:33:38,071
has all their own experiences.

631
00:33:38,071 --> 00:33:38,701
So, wow.

632
00:33:38,731 --> 00:33:40,891
I can't wait to have these
shared experiences, not.

633
00:33:41,161 --> 00:33:44,161
Here's my experience and somebody saying,
well, I don't think that's who you are.

634
00:33:44,851 --> 00:33:46,081
And that's the part that just.

635
00:33:46,651 --> 00:33:47,701
, I'll get off my soap box.

636
00:33:47,701 --> 00:33:49,471
Now the wind machine
will go turn that off.

637
00:33:49,801 --> 00:33:52,501
Take off the wig, if you aren't
watching on YouTube, actually, that

638
00:33:52,531 --> 00:33:53,934
was not what I was doing, ,  hope.

639
00:33:53,964 --> 00:33:58,214
You can see why I just feel like . This
episode is so important to  talk about.

640
00:33:58,214 --> 00:33:59,954
We need to get you back to figuring out.

641
00:34:00,374 --> 00:34:01,694
What is your character?

642
00:34:01,694 --> 00:34:04,784
So you can operate from this place of
integrity and then start to show up

643
00:34:04,784 --> 00:34:09,634
consistently and model this amazing
version of you to your kids, , or

644
00:34:09,664 --> 00:34:12,604
that will help you find a healthier
relationship moving forward.

645
00:34:12,834 --> 00:34:17,504
But if your integrity is strong, you're
more likely to speak honestly,  kindly,

646
00:34:18,024 --> 00:34:19,704
even if it risks some temporary tension.

647
00:34:20,524 --> 00:34:23,274
And this honesty creates trust,
which I think that then becomes the

648
00:34:23,274 --> 00:34:24,764
backbone of any strong relationship.

649
00:34:25,584 --> 00:34:28,054
Because a partner can sense when
you're being true to yourself,

650
00:34:28,124 --> 00:34:30,734
which I think fosters more of
a deeper connection over time.

651
00:34:30,734 --> 00:34:33,634
And if it doesn't, you're also
exposing their emotional immaturity.

652
00:34:34,094 --> 00:34:37,014
But you know that you're
showing up consistent, acting

653
00:34:37,014 --> 00:34:38,154
from a place of integrity.

654
00:34:38,154 --> 00:34:40,804
Character, on the other hand, that's
like the emotional foundation that

655
00:34:40,804 --> 00:34:41,984
you bring into the relationship.

656
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:45,369
, if you're somebody who values kindness and
respect, your partner will feel that in

657
00:34:45,369 --> 00:34:48,109
the way that you treat them, especially
when things get really difficult.

658
00:34:48,819 --> 00:34:52,069
And the person who has a solid
character, they keep their word.

659
00:34:52,139 --> 00:34:53,239
They own up to their mistakes.

660
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:54,829
They show up for their
partner consistently.

661
00:34:55,549 --> 00:34:58,639
But in challenging moments, showing
character might also mean setting

662
00:34:58,639 --> 00:35:03,099
boundaries or saying no to preserve both
your integrity and your mental health.

663
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:06,299
So while integrity and character
are tested in life's pressures,

664
00:35:06,299 --> 00:35:08,449
they also start to build
resilience in the relationship.

665
00:35:09,019 --> 00:35:12,259
And then every single test will
start to strengthen   a healthy

666
00:35:12,259 --> 00:35:16,529
relationship, by showing both partners
who they are, even when things get

667
00:35:16,529 --> 00:35:18,039
real, even when things get tough.

668
00:35:18,739 --> 00:35:23,719
So now let's dig even deeper and I
want to dive into why integrity and

669
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,839
character are extra challenging for
somebody who either lacks a sense of

670
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:32,299
self, , and we're talking again, either
when they're the pathologically kind

671
00:35:32,299 --> 00:35:36,549
person or if they're the emotionally
immature or narcissistic partner.

672
00:35:36,989 --> 00:35:41,033
Enter the pathologically kind person
we'll call them Pat and the emotionally

673
00:35:41,033 --> 00:35:43,113
immature person we'll call them   Chris.

674
00:35:43,113 --> 00:35:45,703
First, let's talk about the
challenge of integrity, , without

675
00:35:45,703 --> 00:35:48,063
really knowing who you are,
without this strong sense of self.

676
00:35:48,063 --> 00:35:51,893
Because you are the pathologically
kind person you are  Pat.

677
00:35:51,893 --> 00:35:54,923
So For somebody who's used to being
the pathologically kind person, I think

678
00:35:54,933 --> 00:35:59,313
integrity can feel particularly confusing
because the boundary between what they

679
00:35:59,313 --> 00:36:03,563
genuinely believe and what they do to
please others, it gets pretty blurry.

680
00:36:04,233 --> 00:36:07,243
Because if you're constantly adjusting
your behavior to avoid conflict, you

681
00:36:07,243 --> 00:36:08,883
don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.

682
00:36:08,933 --> 00:36:10,133
You want to make everybody else happy.

683
00:36:10,553 --> 00:36:13,473
Then it's really easy to lose
touch with your own values.

684
00:36:13,918 --> 00:36:16,098
And I find that so many of the
pathologically kind people that come

685
00:36:16,098 --> 00:36:19,578
out of unhealthy relationships and
start  , raising their baseline, figuring

686
00:36:19,578 --> 00:36:23,448
out who they are, start from a place
of, I have no idea, which makes sense

687
00:36:23,498 --> 00:36:26,868
because you've been the people pleaser or
you've been the person who has taken on

688
00:36:26,868 --> 00:36:30,438
everybody else's feelings and emotions,
most likely throughout your life.

689
00:36:30,438 --> 00:36:33,818
Because remembering that integrity, that
requires knowing what you stand for.

690
00:36:33,938 --> 00:36:36,868
But if you're habitually catering to
somebody else's needs and reactions,

691
00:36:36,898 --> 00:36:40,438
I'm not saying this in a negative way,
we're here, , we're figuring this out.

692
00:36:41,058 --> 00:36:44,548
Then especially if you're doing that
to an emotionally immature narcissistic

693
00:36:44,548 --> 00:36:48,258
partner, I would imagine you are rarely in
a position to really try to even explore

694
00:36:48,258 --> 00:36:49,708
what your own beliefs and values are.

695
00:36:49,948 --> 00:36:51,298
I don't even know if
you would have the time.

696
00:36:52,108 --> 00:36:54,388
And so that starts to leave
the pathologically kind person

697
00:36:54,398 --> 00:36:55,738
feeling really fragmented.

698
00:36:55,953 --> 00:36:58,383
Probably more like a chameleon
because you're always trying

699
00:36:58,383 --> 00:36:59,493
to adapt to the other person.

700
00:36:59,493 --> 00:37:02,623
And I have had people in my office, when
we start talking about values, , they

701
00:37:02,623 --> 00:37:05,833
will say, well, what's the value that,
that aligns with being a chameleon?

702
00:37:05,833 --> 00:37:06,783
Because I'm good at that.

703
00:37:07,263 --> 00:37:10,643
. So you probably find yourself saying
yes, when you mean no, a lot, or agreeing

704
00:37:10,643 --> 00:37:13,833
to things that don't really sit right
with you, simply because it feels

705
00:37:13,833 --> 00:37:15,913
safer than avoiding rocking the boat.

706
00:37:16,483 --> 00:37:21,243
And this pattern can create a lot of
inner conflict, because you're essentially

707
00:37:21,243 --> 00:37:24,353
then out of alignment with yourself,
and without a strong sense of self.

708
00:37:24,353 --> 00:37:29,018
to anchor you, not a judgment, it really
starts to be harder and harder , to

709
00:37:29,048 --> 00:37:32,818
discern where your partner's needs end
and your own begin that whole concept

710
00:37:32,818 --> 00:37:37,798
of being differentiated where one person
ends and then the other begins, because

711
00:37:37,798 --> 00:37:42,158
that can be really, really difficult
when you don't know who you are.

712
00:37:42,328 --> 00:37:46,218
It only makes sense that then it
would be hard to find that separation.

713
00:37:46,218 --> 00:37:47,128
So that was integrity.

714
00:37:47,148 --> 00:37:50,218
Now we're talking about character
and navigating emotional immaturity.

715
00:37:50,758 --> 00:37:51,908
So character.

716
00:37:52,513 --> 00:37:56,303
Or,  more of a strong emotional
foundation comes from understanding

717
00:37:56,303 --> 00:37:58,993
and respecting your own boundaries,
your own values, your own emotions.

718
00:37:59,793 --> 00:38:02,433
But if you've been conditioned to
ignore your own feelings, to keep the

719
00:38:02,433 --> 00:38:06,103
peace as again, most pathologically
kind people are, then your sense of

720
00:38:06,103 --> 00:38:07,813
character often also gets sidelined.

721
00:38:08,403 --> 00:38:11,313
So this lack of emotional foundation means
you're more likely to question your own

722
00:38:11,313 --> 00:38:14,813
feelings and prioritize your partner's
emotional landscape over your own.

723
00:38:15,823 --> 00:38:18,333
So when your partner is emotionally
immature, they display the

724
00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:19,813
narcissistic traits and tendencies.

725
00:38:20,393 --> 00:38:23,703
Then they're most likely
pretty dismissive and, and.

726
00:38:23,938 --> 00:38:27,138
probably invalidating of your
feelings when you try to share them.

727
00:38:27,708 --> 00:38:30,978
And then they might twist those
situations, which typically leave

728
00:38:30,978 --> 00:38:32,808
you wondering, am I overreacting?

729
00:38:33,068 --> 00:38:34,298
You know, is it really that bad?

730
00:38:35,168 --> 00:38:38,748
And then that doubt further weakens your
own sense of self, and it makes it so

731
00:38:38,748 --> 00:38:40,778
much more challenging to build character.

732
00:38:41,338 --> 00:38:42,338
And here's the catch.

733
00:38:42,358 --> 00:38:44,138
Here's where we start
putting the pieces together.

734
00:38:44,988 --> 00:38:47,448
Personal integrity requires character.

735
00:38:47,708 --> 00:38:51,588
You need that foundation to feel solid
and act in ways that reflect who you are.

736
00:38:52,038 --> 00:38:54,598
Especially in the face of
opposition or pressure.

737
00:38:54,751 --> 00:38:58,461
, building integrity and character
in the face of narcissistic traits.

738
00:38:59,091 --> 00:39:02,581
, here's where the journey of
self discovery, of emotional

739
00:39:02,581 --> 00:39:04,191
maturity becomes really crucial.

740
00:39:04,961 --> 00:39:09,631
Because to step out of that pathologically
kind role, it's  essential and

741
00:39:09,631 --> 00:39:12,991
necessary to start tuning into your
own feelings and starting to ask

742
00:39:13,021 --> 00:39:14,801
yourself, what does matter to me?

743
00:39:15,216 --> 00:39:18,266
Because gradually you can start to
cultivate integrity by making real

744
00:39:18,266 --> 00:39:21,376
small decisions that start to reflect
your values, even if it's as simple

745
00:39:21,376 --> 00:39:24,236
as saying no to a request that doesn't
really line up with what you want.

746
00:39:24,916 --> 00:39:29,036
And over time, every choice that you
make, that you honor your values, and

747
00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:32,686
again, if you don't know what your
values are, start taking little steps,

748
00:39:32,686 --> 00:39:36,193
making little choices, because that
will help you uncover your values.

749
00:39:36,783 --> 00:39:39,833
But as you do that, then that
starts to strengthen your character,

750
00:39:40,193 --> 00:39:42,103
providing that emotional
foundation that you need.

751
00:39:42,373 --> 00:39:44,933
So with practice and consistency,
you'll find it easier to hold

752
00:39:44,933 --> 00:39:47,743
steady when your partner's reaction
tries to pull you off course.

753
00:39:48,403 --> 00:39:51,393
So instead of feeling obligated to
keep the peace at any cost, then you

754
00:39:51,393 --> 00:39:55,233
start recognizing that  staying true to
yourself , is a form of self respect.

755
00:39:55,233 --> 00:39:56,183
It's a form of self care.

756
00:39:56,183 --> 00:39:59,363
And in a way it's the very
essence of emotional maturity

757
00:39:59,913 --> 00:40:06,113
. So next up enter the emotionally immature,
who also is operating from a lack of self.

758
00:40:07,153 --> 00:40:08,163
We will call them Chris.

759
00:40:09,293 --> 00:40:11,913
So let's take a look at why it's
also a challenge for the emotionally

760
00:40:11,913 --> 00:40:15,633
immature person or somebody with even
narcissistic traits and tendencies.

761
00:40:15,889 --> 00:40:18,459
It's difficult for them as well to
operate from a place of integrity.

762
00:40:18,809 --> 00:40:21,889
And this is particularly difficult for
them because like the pathologically kind

763
00:40:21,889 --> 00:40:26,019
person, they are often disconnected from
their true self and they are truly living

764
00:40:26,019 --> 00:40:28,039
from a place that is the false self.

765
00:40:29,339 --> 00:40:32,779
And emotionally immature and narcissistic
people usually create this false

766
00:40:32,789 --> 00:40:36,699
self as a defense mechanism  it's
an identity that they built , to

767
00:40:36,699 --> 00:40:39,629
present themselves as impressive
or in control or above reproach.

768
00:40:39,629 --> 00:40:41,319
And they've developed that
version of themselves because

769
00:40:41,709 --> 00:40:42,669
it goes back to childhood.

770
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,179
At a young age, they learned that showing
vulnerability or weakness was not safe.

771
00:40:46,439 --> 00:40:46,909
At all.

772
00:40:46,989 --> 00:40:48,729
And they also probably
didn't see it modeled.

773
00:40:49,149 --> 00:40:52,219
So instead of exploring, embracing
who their true self was, or having a

774
00:40:52,219 --> 00:40:55,049
secure attachment with a parent that was
going to say, Hey, how are you feeling?

775
00:40:55,049 --> 00:40:55,989
Or what do you want to do champ?

776
00:40:56,699 --> 00:40:59,789
Then , they were told , this
is what you need to do in order

777
00:40:59,789 --> 00:41:01,919
to be valued or be validated.

778
00:41:01,929 --> 00:41:03,299
You have to be incredibly special.

779
00:41:03,413 --> 00:41:07,583
Instead of ever really exploring
any flaws because they couldn't have

780
00:41:07,583 --> 00:41:10,943
them, then they become hyper focused
on maintaining a particular image.

781
00:41:11,203 --> 00:41:13,973
One that makes them feel valuable,
one that makes them feel secure.

782
00:41:14,313 --> 00:41:17,813
And one of the easiest ways they do that
is to put you in that one down position

783
00:41:17,813 --> 00:41:19,273
because what does that put them in?

784
00:41:19,303 --> 00:41:19,793
The one up.

785
00:41:20,603 --> 00:41:24,193
So operating from this whole
false self makes integrity really

786
00:41:24,193 --> 00:41:25,503
difficult for a few reasons.

787
00:41:25,513 --> 00:41:29,163
First, integrity requires a willingness
to look at oneself honestly.

788
00:41:29,973 --> 00:41:33,183
So when the pathologically kind person
can step out of their role of trying to

789
00:41:33,183 --> 00:41:37,563
manage everybody else's emotions, they're
usually okay at starting to look at

790
00:41:37,563 --> 00:41:42,063
themselves honestly, although they will
feel bad or feel like it's selfish, but

791
00:41:42,083 --> 00:41:46,133
when you're talking about the emotionally
immature or narcissistic person, then it.

792
00:41:46,518 --> 00:41:49,898
They already feel like they see
themselves honestly, and they are going

793
00:41:49,898 --> 00:41:51,558
to convince you that that is the case.

794
00:41:51,751 --> 00:41:55,201
That's what makes it so difficult
because they have to self confront

795
00:41:55,301 --> 00:41:58,971
, and admit that they aren't showing
up in the best way for you, their

796
00:41:58,971 --> 00:42:00,421
partner, even for themselves.

797
00:42:01,131 --> 00:42:03,751
And then they'll have to admit
that also there is room for growth.

798
00:42:03,811 --> 00:42:05,701
They might have to admit that they
don't know what they don't know.

799
00:42:05,701 --> 00:42:08,621
For somebody who's heavily
invested in their false self.

800
00:42:09,496 --> 00:42:15,226
Self reflection is a giant threat and
that's where the extreme discomfort

801
00:42:15,226 --> 00:42:17,556
comes in and the emotionally
immature narcissistic person wants

802
00:42:17,566 --> 00:42:18,806
nothing to do with that discomfort.

803
00:42:19,086 --> 00:42:24,056
, it is  natural for them to  bat that
discomfort away by then defending

804
00:42:24,056 --> 00:42:26,996
themselves, putting them in a one
up position, putting you down.

805
00:42:26,996 --> 00:42:30,026
Because admitting a mistake, admitting
a flaw, all of a sudden that feels

806
00:42:30,026 --> 00:42:31,936
like an attack on their very identity.

807
00:42:32,071 --> 00:42:33,361
They will avoid it at all costs.

808
00:42:33,361 --> 00:42:35,991
They'll defend, they'll deflect,
they'll lie to protect the, this whole

809
00:42:36,011 --> 00:42:39,411
constructed self image, the false self,
which makes acting with integrity.

810
00:42:40,181 --> 00:42:43,701
Pretty much impossible because
rather than asking, Hey, what's

811
00:42:43,701 --> 00:42:45,241
that, what aligns with my values?

812
00:42:45,361 --> 00:42:47,931
They're   asking, Hey, , what
keeps me looking good or what

813
00:42:47,931 --> 00:42:49,441
keeps me in this one up position.

814
00:42:49,664 --> 00:42:52,324
I think that this also speaks to when
you're talking about the emotionally

815
00:42:52,334 --> 00:42:56,654
immature, that there's a lack of
internal consistency because it means

816
00:42:56,654 --> 00:43:00,484
that they lack an internal foundation,
which is absolutely necessary.

817
00:43:00,894 --> 00:43:04,014
If you're trying to act from a place
of integrity, because then this,

818
00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:08,184
this narcissistic person sense of
self is so reactive because it's

819
00:43:08,184 --> 00:43:12,194
based more on how others perceive
them than on any stable inner values.

820
00:43:12,654 --> 00:43:16,499
It is just a flow, an inner
flow state of narcissism.

821
00:43:16,959 --> 00:43:19,909
So as a result, they find
themselves behaving inconsistently.

822
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:23,489
They will change their stance based
on who they're with or what they want

823
00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:25,209
in the moment or how they are feeling.

824
00:43:25,329 --> 00:43:29,199
And that inconsistency, it really does
look like saying whatever they think

825
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:33,699
will make them seem right or powerful,
but inside, , it just fosters more of

826
00:43:33,699 --> 00:43:35,459
this insecurity and even confusion.

827
00:43:36,009 --> 00:43:39,499
So without this inner stability, they also
struggle with a consistent moral compass.

828
00:43:40,059 --> 00:43:43,509
And if their main objective is to
avoid shame or guilt or responsibility,

829
00:43:44,129 --> 00:43:48,109
then they are absolutely less likely
to act in ways that respect anybody

830
00:43:48,109 --> 00:43:51,269
else's boundaries or feelings because
those don't matter if they are in

831
00:43:51,269 --> 00:43:54,879
the way of the narcissist or the
emotionally immature person, then they

832
00:43:54,879 --> 00:43:57,649
are  they are to be toyed with and
they are to be crossed immediately

833
00:43:57,649 --> 00:44:01,169
because a boundary to a
narcissist is a challenge.

834
00:44:01,299 --> 00:44:05,049
,
and so their decisions are based on
protecting themselves rather than

835
00:44:05,059 --> 00:44:08,689
aligning with genuine values because
their values shift at any given moment,

836
00:44:08,729 --> 00:44:13,729
any second, because , integrity requires
vulnerability and a strong sense of self.

837
00:44:14,329 --> 00:44:18,699
And that is,  almost an impossibility
for them to genuinely care about whether

838
00:44:18,699 --> 00:44:20,669
their actions match any internal standard.

839
00:44:21,649 --> 00:44:25,519
Because they're just more focused on
survival that gaslighting is a childhood

840
00:44:25,529 --> 00:44:29,739
defense mechanism And I I've often
thought whatever their birth year is.

841
00:44:29,779 --> 00:44:32,859
I want to get a shirt that
says, you know confabulate and

842
00:44:32,859 --> 00:44:34,789
since 69 Something like that.

843
00:44:34,979 --> 00:44:37,569
For the emotionally immature or
narcissistic person to move even

844
00:44:37,569 --> 00:44:40,879
close to integrity They would need
to start recognizing and questioning

845
00:44:40,889 --> 00:44:44,109
the limitations of their own
sense of self their false self.

846
00:44:44,709 --> 00:44:47,119
And that is I wouldn't
even call it hard work.

847
00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:50,499
It's, it's almost impossible because it
means letting go the illusion of control

848
00:44:50,499 --> 00:44:53,819
or perfection and they've depended
on that for survival for so long.

849
00:44:54,659 --> 00:44:57,119
So they would have to actually accept
the fact that it's okay to have flaws

850
00:44:57,149 --> 00:45:01,204
and it's not that Because, well, I do,
but you do too, or I do because you

851
00:45:01,204 --> 00:45:04,934
made me and are, they might have to
accept that they don't know everything

852
00:45:05,074 --> 00:45:06,574
and they would have to feel vulnerable.

853
00:45:06,834 --> 00:45:09,964
And then in theory, as they recognize
that their worth isn't dependent on that

854
00:45:09,964 --> 00:45:13,924
constructed identity, then they can start
building a more genuine sense of self.

855
00:45:14,534 --> 00:45:17,384
And if they were to do that small
steps toward integrity become possible.

856
00:45:17,394 --> 00:45:20,694
For instance, if they started practicing,
even acknowledging mistakes or simply

857
00:45:20,694 --> 00:45:23,134
listening to somebody without turning
the conversation back to themselves.

858
00:45:23,574 --> 00:45:26,144
, those actions could theoretically
help them find some stability.

859
00:45:26,574 --> 00:45:29,754
But there's the big question is that
if the person isn't truly trying to

860
00:45:29,764 --> 00:45:33,404
self confront and grow, then  they're
really operating from a place of

861
00:45:33,404 --> 00:45:36,504
trying to figure out, Hey, just tell
me what I need to do , to still be

862
00:45:36,504 --> 00:45:38,054
able to take this one up position.

863
00:45:38,524 --> 00:45:41,674
There's a big question that comes
up in the private women's Facebook

864
00:45:41,684 --> 00:45:45,354
group about people will ask about the
people that are the self proclaimed

865
00:45:45,354 --> 00:45:49,014
narcissists who are trying to get on
social media and say,  I'm a narcissist.

866
00:45:49,014 --> 00:45:49,824
And here's what we think.

867
00:45:50,529 --> 00:45:54,389
But what is fascinating is in theory,
then that would say that if that

868
00:45:54,389 --> 00:45:57,179
person is still narcissistic, then
they just found another way to get

869
00:45:57,179 --> 00:46:00,059
their supply, which is that validation
of saying whatever it is that they

870
00:46:00,059 --> 00:46:01,429
feel like is the right thing to say.

871
00:46:01,929 --> 00:46:05,499
But I would imagine that most likely would
change at any given moment, because if

872
00:46:05,499 --> 00:46:08,679
they still are the narcissist that they
claim to be, they are operating from

873
00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:10,729
a false self to get that validation.

874
00:46:12,459 --> 00:46:14,979
So now let's talk about Pat and Chris.

875
00:46:15,149 --> 00:46:18,039
. I'm going to give you two scenarios with
Pat, the pathologically kind person,

876
00:46:18,049 --> 00:46:19,389
and Chris, the emotionally immature.

877
00:46:19,699 --> 00:46:22,149
And I want to show you how these
interactions keep them both locked in this

878
00:46:22,149 --> 00:46:26,249
cycle that reinforces their insecurities
and their lack of self awareness.

879
00:46:26,879 --> 00:46:29,099
So the first one, conflict
over social plans.

880
00:46:29,139 --> 00:46:31,119
So Pat and Chris, they're
invited to a friend's party.

881
00:46:31,479 --> 00:46:34,469
And Pat actually really enjoys
socializing, but Chris feels

882
00:46:34,499 --> 00:46:37,589
insecure in social settings, but
is not going to say it that way.

883
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:40,589
So they tend to make real
dismissive comments or complain

884
00:46:40,589 --> 00:46:41,669
about any kind of event.

885
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:44,299
And especially because this
is what Pat wants to do.

886
00:46:45,069 --> 00:46:49,069
So the interaction, as they get ready
to leave, Chris starts expressing

887
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:52,509
their frustration, saying things
like, Man, these people are so fake.

888
00:46:52,529 --> 00:46:53,699
I don't even know why we go.

889
00:46:54,099 --> 00:46:57,750
And then Pat immediately picks up on
Chris's resistance,  Discomfort and

890
00:46:57,750 --> 00:47:01,370
instead of addressing their own desire
to attend starts reassuring Chris, you

891
00:47:01,370 --> 00:47:04,390
know, we don't have to stay long and if
you're uncomfortable, we can leave early.

892
00:47:04,770 --> 00:47:08,630
So Pat's already preparing to minimize
Chris's discomfort and willing

893
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:09,990
to sacrifice their own enjoyment.

894
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,990
So they make it to the party, Chris makes
a ton of passive aggressive remarks like,

895
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:15,640
it's exactly why I hate these events.

896
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:17,644
Everybody's pretending to be
something that they're not.

897
00:47:17,825 --> 00:47:20,525
You know, Pat sensing Chris's
discomfort goes into overdrive

898
00:47:20,565 --> 00:47:23,385
because that's what Pat does and
attempts to make Chris feel at ease.

899
00:47:23,565 --> 00:47:26,315
So Pat starts to subtly distance
themselves from others or trying to

900
00:47:26,315 --> 00:47:29,525
shield Chris from conversations or
redirecting attention whenever Chris

901
00:47:29,525 --> 00:47:30,845
starts to really look uncomfortable.

902
00:47:30,845 --> 00:47:33,675
And man, Chris lets Pat
know I am uncomfortable.

903
00:47:34,485 --> 00:47:36,405
So then after the party, instead
of reflecting on their own

904
00:47:36,405 --> 00:47:39,745
feelings, Pat focuses on Chris's
experience saying, Hey, I hope it

905
00:47:39,745 --> 00:47:40,985
wasn't too uncomfortable for you.

906
00:47:40,985 --> 00:47:42,205
I really appreciate you going.

907
00:47:42,255 --> 00:47:43,375
And so what's Chris going to do?

908
00:47:43,655 --> 00:47:45,015
Respond dismissively.

909
00:47:45,515 --> 00:47:46,635
I don't even know why he made us go.

910
00:47:47,575 --> 00:47:50,965
And that leaves Pat feeling guilty,
leading Pat to apologize despite

911
00:47:50,965 --> 00:47:53,445
wanting to attend the event in the first
place, but they would never say that.

912
00:47:54,135 --> 00:47:55,265
So what does that result in?

913
00:47:55,265 --> 00:47:57,965
In that interaction, both Pat and Chris
show up in ways that keep them stuck.

914
00:47:58,015 --> 00:48:01,115
Because Pat is constantly trying
to manage Chris's emotions and

915
00:48:01,115 --> 00:48:02,725
sidestepping Pat's own preferences.

916
00:48:03,295 --> 00:48:06,965
And so by catering to Chris's
discomfort, Pat reinforces the idea

917
00:48:07,255 --> 00:48:09,285
that Chris's feelings are paramount.

918
00:48:09,625 --> 00:48:11,134
And , that Pat's own
wishes, are paramount.

919
00:48:11,435 --> 00:48:15,635
Need to take a backseat and I think
that kind of self sacrifice, that's

920
00:48:15,635 --> 00:48:19,625
what leaves Pat feeling unfulfilled,
coming from a place of self betrayal

921
00:48:19,955 --> 00:48:22,695
and absolutely unseen, unacknowledged.

922
00:48:23,205 --> 00:48:27,215
But then Chris, on the other hand, it
gets to avoid taking any responsibility

923
00:48:27,225 --> 00:48:30,435
for their, the discomfort that they
put into that social situation.

924
00:48:31,095 --> 00:48:33,845
And instead, they project their
frustration on the Pat and they get

925
00:48:33,845 --> 00:48:35,255
to blame Pat for the whole experience.

926
00:48:35,295 --> 00:48:37,515
I can't believe we even had
to go and Chris will hold

927
00:48:37,515 --> 00:48:38,825
that over Pat for days now.

928
00:48:39,460 --> 00:48:42,360
It will be brought up anytime that Pat
wants to go to anything else social.

929
00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:44,100
So, Chris.

930
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:46,700
It's to remain comfortable in this
pattern of emotional immaturity,

931
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,320
because they believe that their
feelings take precedence without

932
00:48:49,460 --> 00:48:50,660
any need of self reflection.

933
00:48:51,710 --> 00:48:53,680
, scenario two, a financial decision.

934
00:48:54,430 --> 00:48:56,060
Pat and Chris are discussing finances.

935
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,230
Pat mentions wanting to save
up for a trip that they've

936
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:59,220
been talking about for a while.

937
00:48:59,570 --> 00:49:02,580
Chris, though, dismisses the idea,
saying, we just, we can't afford it.

938
00:49:03,090 --> 00:49:06,780
Doesn't offer any specific reason,
and starts then, buying, Things

939
00:49:06,780 --> 00:49:10,320
that they need and items for
themselves, not consulting Pat.

940
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,020
So then Pat, eager to keep the peace,
wants to avoid confrontation, decides,

941
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,720
Okay, I need to let this slide and
I will manage the finances really

942
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:22,220
carefully to make sure that Chris
doesn't get frustrated or upset.

943
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,130
So Pat rationalizes, you know
what, I guess maybe, probably

944
00:49:25,130 --> 00:49:27,240
Chris is right, maybe it's not
the right time to save for a trip.

945
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:30,150
But inside, Pat feels some
resentment building up.

946
00:49:31,150 --> 00:49:33,920
And so then as the months go by,
Chris continues to make all kinds of

947
00:49:34,030 --> 00:49:37,230
financial decisions without Pat's input,
but Pat doesn't want to bring it up.

948
00:49:37,635 --> 00:49:40,595
Cause it's uncomfortable and
Pat knows that it won't go well.

949
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,840
So when Pat finally brings the trip up
again, Chris becomes so defensive, saying,

950
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:47,080
You always want these unrealistic things.

951
00:49:47,150 --> 00:49:48,480
, I am the practical one here.

952
00:49:48,490 --> 00:49:50,010
If it wasn't for me, we'd be broke.

953
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,180
So Pat, feeling shut down,
feeling guilty for even bringing

954
00:49:53,180 --> 00:49:54,460
it up, immediately backtracks.

955
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:55,160
No, you're right.

956
00:49:55,220 --> 00:49:57,220
I didn't, I don't want to
make things harder for you.

957
00:49:57,830 --> 00:50:00,929
So in trying to please Chris,
Pat reinforces the idea again.

958
00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:04,640
That Chris's opinions are superior, that
they are valid, that they are the only

959
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,110
ones that we can talk about, while Pat's
feelings are not worth standing up for.

960
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,520
So what happens in that dynamic?

961
00:50:11,570 --> 00:50:14,290
Pat constantly avoids bringing
up their own wants, fearing it's

962
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:16,530
going to create conflict, it's
going to make Chris uncomfortable.

963
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,650
Pat's tendency to people please,
because that's what Pat does, makes

964
00:50:20,650 --> 00:50:25,500
them accepting Chris's dismissive or
controlling behavior as almost inevitable.

965
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:29,380
And so that keeps Pat feeling
unworthy of even bringing things up.

966
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,270
It definitely knowing that that
Pat doesn't have equal input in the

967
00:50:32,270 --> 00:50:36,230
relationship and Pat becomes convinced
that their own needs are secondary because

968
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:41,380
that's what their needs were as a kid,
Chris actually gets more emboldened.

969
00:50:41,835 --> 00:50:45,415
And, and becomes more emotionally
immature and continues to make these

970
00:50:45,415 --> 00:50:47,385
unilateral decisions because they can.

971
00:50:48,165 --> 00:50:51,055
Because Chris's lack of self awareness,
their reluctance to have any kind

972
00:50:51,055 --> 00:50:55,475
of compromise, then it deepens their
dependence on having absolute control.

973
00:50:55,915 --> 00:50:58,145
So they remain in this position
where they don't have to address

974
00:50:58,145 --> 00:51:00,475
their own insecurities, or they
don't have to consider Pat's needs,

975
00:51:00,875 --> 00:51:04,405
because they are  accustomed and
used to Pat just adjusting to them.

976
00:51:04,675 --> 00:51:06,865
If Chris says something,
Pat just backs off.

977
00:51:06,865 --> 00:51:08,525
So how does that keep them both stuck?

978
00:51:08,525 --> 00:51:11,275
I think it's kind of obvious, in
this framework where Pat continually

979
00:51:11,275 --> 00:51:14,335
accommodates Chris's discomfort,
Chris dismisses Pat's feelings.

980
00:51:14,765 --> 00:51:20,055
That is a toxic loop because Pat's
pattern by continually catering

981
00:51:20,055 --> 00:51:24,165
to Chris, Pat loses more and
more of their own sense of self.

982
00:51:24,695 --> 00:51:27,375
And then they start identifying as
the caretaker and the relationship,

983
00:51:27,395 --> 00:51:30,525
believing that Chris's happiness
is actually their responsibility.

984
00:51:30,555 --> 00:51:31,565
This is my lot in life.

985
00:51:31,565 --> 00:51:32,595
This is what I'm supposed to do.

986
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:36,090
And that is the kind of mindset that
keeps somebody, a good person like

987
00:51:36,090 --> 00:51:40,470
Pat locked into people pleasing and
self sacrifice and they eventually try

988
00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:43,270
to make sense of it or justify it in
their own minds, Pat's not about to

989
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:45,040
express or prioritize their own needs.

990
00:51:45,250 --> 00:51:47,650
Chris's pattern, which I think is
so fascinating when you look at

991
00:51:47,650 --> 00:51:50,570
this way, and this is why it just
creates that human magnet syndrome.

992
00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:52,470
Ross Rosenberg calls it the crisp.

993
00:51:53,015 --> 00:51:55,915
Becomes not challenged, never
challenged to grow emotionally.

994
00:51:56,345 --> 00:51:59,205
Not, I'm not saying that it would
work because we know we can't give

995
00:51:59,205 --> 00:52:03,565
them the aha moment, but the lack
of any kind of confrontation allows

996
00:52:03,565 --> 00:52:05,905
Chris to live pretty comfortably
and their emotional immaturity.

997
00:52:06,265 --> 00:52:08,865
Cause they still get to continue to
blame others, avoid self reflection.

998
00:52:09,195 --> 00:52:11,685
, their defensive behavior just
intensifies because they've come to

999
00:52:11,685 --> 00:52:14,975
expect that Pat will cater to their
needs and Pat will do anything they

1000
00:52:14,975 --> 00:52:16,455
can to smooth over any discomfort.

1001
00:52:16,805 --> 00:52:20,415
So that is this reinforcing cycle
because every time Pat sacrifices

1002
00:52:20,415 --> 00:52:22,774
their own needs, they reinforce
the idea that Chris's feelings

1003
00:52:22,775 --> 00:52:24,255
are, , they are top of the mountain.

1004
00:52:24,505 --> 00:52:25,335
They are paramount.

1005
00:52:25,335 --> 00:52:28,075
And while Chris becomes increasingly
dependent on Pat's attention

1006
00:52:28,145 --> 00:52:29,085
and emotional management.

1007
00:52:29,105 --> 00:52:32,405
So if Chris needs to know that Chris
exists, , let me get in a scrap

1008
00:52:32,405 --> 00:52:35,045
with Pat so that I can take the
one up position and know I'm good.

1009
00:52:36,105 --> 00:52:39,295
But it actually leaves them both
feeling unfulfilled because if Pat feels

1010
00:52:39,375 --> 00:52:43,190
invisible, Starts becoming resentful
and Chris becomes increasingly demanding

1011
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:48,150
and dismissive and trapped in almost
like this fragile sense of superiority.

1012
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:52,390
So without any kind of intervention
or self awareness, Pat and Chris will

1013
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:57,400
stay in this dynamic forever where
Pat's kindness turns into a compulsion

1014
00:52:57,410 --> 00:53:01,010
to cater Chris's emotional immaturity
creates this constant need to control.

1015
00:53:01,780 --> 00:53:05,270
And then that cycle not only  keeps
them stuck, but it reinforces.

1016
00:53:05,810 --> 00:53:09,170
This false self that we talked
about earlier, that is what

1017
00:53:09,170 --> 00:53:13,310
their, their sense of self is
based off of is this toxic cycle.

1018
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:18,260
So they are nowhere close to figuring
out what their character is so they

1019
00:53:18,260 --> 00:53:20,320
can act from a place of integrity.

1020
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,970
So Pat needs help and that help
with theoretically pressure

1021
00:53:24,970 --> 00:53:26,210
the relationship for growth.

1022
00:53:26,930 --> 00:53:31,140
But it might really only be Pat who
benefits from the pressure for growth.

1023
00:53:31,140 --> 00:53:36,920
So enter the picture, my favorite David
Schnarch's four points of balance.

1024
00:53:37,845 --> 00:53:40,335
And this is how we're going to
outline a strategy for Pat to

1025
00:53:40,335 --> 00:53:42,985
break free from the pattern of
people pleasing and self sacrifice.

1026
00:53:43,630 --> 00:53:47,430
So this approach is one that can help
Pat build a stronger sense of self while

1027
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:51,430
navigating the relationship and learn to
hold steady, even when Chris's reactions

1028
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:53,380
might tempt them to revert to old habits.

1029
00:53:54,370 --> 00:53:56,130
Am I only focusing on Pat?

1030
00:53:56,270 --> 00:53:57,080
Yes, I am.

1031
00:53:57,530 --> 00:54:01,840
And, ,, first, let me, let me ,  define
the concept of differentiation  from

1032
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,910
David Schnirsch, he defines it as
people's ability to balance humankind's

1033
00:54:05,950 --> 00:54:07,390
two most fundamental drives.

1034
00:54:07,940 --> 00:54:11,830
We have this desire for attachment and
connection on one hand, but we also

1035
00:54:11,830 --> 00:54:13,170
have a desire to be an individual.

1036
00:54:13,455 --> 00:54:15,405
And direct the course of
our own lives on the other.

1037
00:54:16,025 --> 00:54:18,715
And that refers to the ability
to hold on to yourself.

1038
00:54:18,805 --> 00:54:22,075
Even when important people in your
life are trying to pressure you to

1039
00:54:22,075 --> 00:54:23,995
conform to what they want you to be.

1040
00:54:24,645 --> 00:54:28,365
So differentiation, it
yields emotional autonomy.

1041
00:54:28,885 --> 00:54:31,375
And that becomes the basis
of healthy interdependence.

1042
00:54:31,465 --> 00:54:34,425
And the foundation for intimacy,
for polarity, for stability

1043
00:54:34,425 --> 00:54:35,375
in long term relationships.

1044
00:54:35,385 --> 00:54:38,885
Even though it might seem
counterproductive at first.

1045
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:42,810
Because we get into these relationships
and we think that we have to be on

1046
00:54:42,810 --> 00:54:46,190
the same page on everything, but we're
two different humans,  we can show

1047
00:54:46,190 --> 00:54:50,320
up different in the relationship, and
that can actually build, , polarity.

1048
00:54:50,350 --> 00:54:53,106
It can build, the positive
tension in the relationship.

1049
00:54:53,536 --> 00:54:54,996
So there's differentiation.

1050
00:54:55,516 --> 00:54:56,956
So now we go into his
four points of balance.

1051
00:54:56,956 --> 00:54:59,256
The first one, having a solid
but flexible sense of self.

1052
00:55:00,161 --> 00:55:01,071
What does that look like?

1053
00:55:01,521 --> 00:55:04,931
Having a clear sense of who you are
and what you believe, even when other

1054
00:55:04,931 --> 00:55:06,461
people disagree or they disapprove.

1055
00:55:06,901 --> 00:55:10,751
So that right there is the ability to
remain true to yourself without rigidly

1056
00:55:10,751 --> 00:55:13,701
clinging to one perspective or feeling
threatened by somebody else's opinion.

1057
00:55:14,071 --> 00:55:16,741
In these scenarios, we'll go
back to that party scenario.

1058
00:55:16,861 --> 00:55:19,846
Instead of prioritizing Chris's
discomfort, Then Pat would

1059
00:55:20,096 --> 00:55:22,796
remind themselves that they
genuinely enjoy socializing.

1060
00:55:23,206 --> 00:55:24,826
They want to attend the
party for themselves.

1061
00:55:24,916 --> 00:55:28,206
If they can just even start by
identifying and honoring that desire,

1062
00:55:29,086 --> 00:55:32,896
then Pat can eventually get to a
place where they can express it.

1063
00:55:33,136 --> 00:55:36,226
I don't even know if I want to use
the word, but assertively, maybe more

1064
00:55:36,226 --> 00:55:40,186
intentionally saying things like, I
really like seeing our friends and

1065
00:55:40,266 --> 00:55:43,896
I would like for us to go, if you
are not comfortable, , we can stay

1066
00:55:43,896 --> 00:55:45,886
for a shorter time, or I will go.

1067
00:55:46,406 --> 00:55:50,466
And you can stay here, but I would like
to attend now, right now, if you're in

1068
00:55:50,466 --> 00:55:53,756
the relationship with the emotionally
immature narcissistic person, you can, I

1069
00:55:53,786 --> 00:55:57,216
think I covered this a couple of weeks ago
about the episode where I thought there

1070
00:55:57,216 --> 00:56:00,986
were some really bad tools being shared
saying, Hey, just use empathy with the

1071
00:56:00,986 --> 00:56:04,836
narcissist and they'll say, Oh my gosh,
, that, that works on me, which it does not.

1072
00:56:04,836 --> 00:56:09,396
So in this scenario, I am saying
that this would be after a period

1073
00:56:09,396 --> 00:56:12,686
of time where you are developing
these differentiation skills.

1074
00:56:12,716 --> 00:56:15,296
And then we'll talk about this
where you're going to say things

1075
00:56:15,306 --> 00:56:18,456
from a place of integrity, but
it is not looking for an outcome.

1076
00:56:18,756 --> 00:56:19,566
That's the party scenario.

1077
00:56:19,566 --> 00:56:22,356
If we go to the financial scenario, kind
of a similar thing in the conversation

1078
00:56:22,356 --> 00:56:25,306
about finances, then Pat would have to
take the time to recognize and accept

1079
00:56:25,626 --> 00:56:28,246
their own desire to save for a future
trip without immediately deferring

1080
00:56:28,246 --> 00:56:29,516
to Chris's more critical viewpoint.

1081
00:56:29,516 --> 00:56:32,406
So Pat would eventually get to this
place of saying something like, I

1082
00:56:32,406 --> 00:56:35,286
really value having these experiences
together, traveling together.

1083
00:56:35,686 --> 00:56:37,406
And I think planning this
trip is important to me.

1084
00:56:37,596 --> 00:56:39,976
So I would like for us to discuss
how we can make that possible.

1085
00:56:40,836 --> 00:56:44,276
The second point of balance, one of the
biggest keys, quiet mind, calm heart.

1086
00:56:44,306 --> 00:56:44,856
What is that?

1087
00:56:44,866 --> 00:56:47,346
It is being able to manage your
own thoughts, your own emotions,

1088
00:56:47,346 --> 00:56:49,526
especially in stressful situations.

1089
00:56:49,946 --> 00:56:52,856
And this point of balance
is, is a challenge.

1090
00:56:52,866 --> 00:56:53,746
It takes a lot of work.

1091
00:56:53,746 --> 00:56:56,626
It takes mindfulness and meditation
and being able to build a pause

1092
00:56:57,206 --> 00:57:00,266
because this one allows you to stay
a little more calm and self regulated

1093
00:57:00,266 --> 00:57:04,326
instead of just reacting defensively
or even just reacting out of habit.

1094
00:57:05,231 --> 00:57:06,651
So let's go back to the party scenario.

1095
00:57:06,731 --> 00:57:09,341
If Chris starts making negative
comments, Pat can use this as

1096
00:57:09,341 --> 00:57:10,721
an opportunity to focus inward.

1097
00:57:11,271 --> 00:57:14,231
It goes in practice, calming techniques,
a little deep breathing, silent,

1098
00:57:14,231 --> 00:57:17,991
reminding themselves that their own
intentions are good for the night.

1099
00:57:18,081 --> 00:57:21,161
Instead of rushing to manage Chris's
discomfort,  pack and let those

1100
00:57:21,161 --> 00:57:24,741
comments just roll off and notice them
and quietly remind themselves that

1101
00:57:24,741 --> 00:57:26,441
those are definitely Chris's thoughts.

1102
00:57:27,121 --> 00:57:27,721
And I hear them.

1103
00:57:28,271 --> 00:57:31,041
They don't have to take responsibility
to manage Chris's emotions.

1104
00:57:31,771 --> 00:57:34,591
And if we apply that quiet mind,
calm heart to the financial scenario,

1105
00:57:34,631 --> 00:57:37,741
then when Chris dismisses the idea
of saving for the trip, Pat can

1106
00:57:37,741 --> 00:57:39,241
practice not taking it personally.

1107
00:57:39,321 --> 00:57:43,411
By focusing on staying very calm and
zen, Pat can avoid defensiveness and

1108
00:57:43,411 --> 00:57:46,661
then maintain their perspective without
succumbing to Chris's criticism.

1109
00:57:46,671 --> 00:57:50,261
Even though Chris is probably going
to even push back more and try to push

1110
00:57:50,261 --> 00:57:53,261
even more buttons because all of a
sudden, they're not getting the rise

1111
00:57:53,261 --> 00:57:56,181
out of Pat and they're going to be left
feeling pretty emotionally vulnerable.

1112
00:57:56,181 --> 00:57:59,801
For So Pat can keep this steady
mind and remember why the

1113
00:57:59,801 --> 00:58:01,081
trip is meaningful to them.

1114
00:58:02,001 --> 00:58:04,161
And then Sharnarsha's third
point of balance is this

1115
00:58:04,311 --> 00:58:05,921
concept of grounded responding.

1116
00:58:06,371 --> 00:58:09,581
That's the ability to respond
thoughtfully, intentionally,

1117
00:58:09,601 --> 00:58:11,291
rather than just react impulsively.

1118
00:58:11,911 --> 00:58:12,641
And that involves.

1119
00:58:13,401 --> 00:58:17,131
Choosing actions that reflect your
true values and your intentions, even

1120
00:58:17,131 --> 00:58:18,181
when it might feel uncomfortable.

1121
00:58:18,871 --> 00:58:20,051
Back to the party scenario.

1122
00:58:20,101 --> 00:58:22,811
So instead of reacting to Chris's
negativity by immediately catering,

1123
00:58:23,241 --> 00:58:25,551
Pat would try to respond in a way
that reflects their own desires.

1124
00:58:25,581 --> 00:58:29,071
For example, Chris makes a dismissive
comment, Pat might respond with, I

1125
00:58:29,071 --> 00:58:31,791
can, I hear you don't like these events
very much, but I'm looking forward

1126
00:58:31,791 --> 00:58:32,921
to connecting with people tonight.

1127
00:58:33,906 --> 00:58:34,626
That's grounded.

1128
00:58:34,846 --> 00:58:37,166
That response honors Pat's own
feelings without getting drawn

1129
00:58:37,166 --> 00:58:40,126
into Chris's perspective or, or
kind of getting down and wrestling

1130
00:58:40,126 --> 00:58:41,686
in the mud financial scenario.

1131
00:58:41,996 --> 00:58:45,236
So Pat would again, use a grounded
response to keep the conversation

1132
00:58:45,236 --> 00:58:48,156
focused and assertive saying, I
understand that saving might feel

1133
00:58:48,156 --> 00:58:51,736
challenging, but I believe this is
something important to prioritize.

1134
00:58:52,306 --> 00:58:56,006
So rather than letting Chris's reactions
derail the whole discussion, Pat

1135
00:58:56,036 --> 00:58:59,756
learns to stay firm in their stance
and that will help them reflect a much

1136
00:58:59,756 --> 00:59:03,516
deeper commitment to their own wants
and needs, and then this fourth point

1137
00:59:03,516 --> 00:59:06,311
of balance It's meaningful endurance.

1138
00:59:06,321 --> 00:59:10,201
So that's the capacity, the ability
to tolerate the discomfort that

1139
00:59:10,201 --> 00:59:12,101
often comes with growth and change.

1140
00:59:12,761 --> 00:59:15,851
And over time, you learn
to embrace the discomfort.

1141
00:59:15,891 --> 00:59:19,191
You know, that when discomfort is there,
that I will learn something about myself.

1142
00:59:20,141 --> 00:59:23,311
And that is about holding steady and
your choices and your values, even if

1143
00:59:23,311 --> 00:59:26,371
it might strain the relationship or
lead to even temporary conflict, we're

1144
00:59:26,371 --> 00:59:27,551
kind of starting to play the long game.

1145
00:59:28,341 --> 00:59:29,351
Go back to the scenarios.

1146
00:59:29,531 --> 00:59:33,601
And the party, instead of retreating into
people pleasing behaviors to avoid Chris's

1147
00:59:33,621 --> 00:59:37,351
discomfort, Pat needs to learn to practice
meaningful endurance by standing by their

1148
00:59:37,351 --> 00:59:41,611
choice to attend the party, even if Chris
makes negative comments, because that

1149
00:59:41,611 --> 00:59:45,591
endurance could mean that Pat might then
face criticism or disapproval from Chris.

1150
00:59:46,126 --> 00:59:48,736
But if, if Pat's staying aligned
with their own values, they're

1151
00:59:48,746 --> 00:59:52,176
building emotional resilience,
they're reinforcing their own sense

1152
00:59:52,176 --> 00:59:53,666
of self that is starting to develop.

1153
00:59:54,336 --> 00:59:57,876
And in that financial scenario, in,
in continuing to bring up the topic

1154
00:59:57,876 --> 01:00:00,506
of saving for a trip, then Pat might
experience resistance from Chris.

1155
01:00:00,656 --> 01:00:03,756
Pat will experience resistance
from Chris, who could respond with

1156
01:00:03,756 --> 01:00:06,986
frustration or attempts to shut down
the conversation or anger or withdrawal.

1157
01:00:07,466 --> 01:00:11,066
But meaningful endurance means that
Pat's willing to stay in this discomfort.

1158
01:00:11,496 --> 01:00:13,796
, they're willing to assert
their needs, even if it means

1159
01:00:13,796 --> 01:00:15,246
navigating some tension with Chris.

1160
01:00:15,603 --> 01:00:18,773
When people can really start to
embrace these four points of balance.

1161
01:00:19,608 --> 01:00:22,328
And we'll take Pat in this scenario,
Pat starts to break away from

1162
01:00:22,328 --> 01:00:25,778
the automatic impulse to please
and manage Chris's emotions.

1163
01:00:25,858 --> 01:00:29,568
Instead, Pat can start focusing on
understanding and respecting their own

1164
01:00:29,568 --> 01:00:33,358
desires, their own values, and that's
what will allow them to show up more

1165
01:00:33,358 --> 01:00:34,588
authentically in the relationship.

1166
01:00:35,118 --> 01:00:38,718
And then with every single interaction
that reflects this self awareness

1167
01:00:38,748 --> 01:00:42,368
and resilience, Pat is reinforcing
a new narrative about who they are.

1168
01:00:42,418 --> 01:00:45,358
One that is not just solely
defined by how well they

1169
01:00:45,358 --> 01:00:46,968
accommodate or meet Chris's needs.

1170
01:00:47,688 --> 01:00:50,548
And then over time, Pat's new
way of responding starts to,

1171
01:00:50,938 --> 01:00:52,208
affect the dynamic with Chris.

1172
01:00:52,688 --> 01:00:56,478
I'm not saying that then they both grow
closer together, but by refusing to

1173
01:00:56,478 --> 01:00:59,668
act from this place of just constant
appeasement, Pat starts to subtly

1174
01:00:59,668 --> 01:01:03,288
invite Chris to confront their own
emotional responses and expectations.

1175
01:01:03,328 --> 01:01:08,378
And that keyword there is inviting,
not demanding, not forcing, and

1176
01:01:08,378 --> 01:01:13,548
not even guiding, but it's just
this, it's a bit of an invitation.

1177
01:01:14,168 --> 01:01:18,608
So that shift does not guarantee that
Chris will change anything, but it offers

1178
01:01:18,608 --> 01:01:22,708
Pat the chance to step into a place of
integrity and self respect and move from a

1179
01:01:22,708 --> 01:01:25,148
reaction more to this intentional action.

1180
01:01:26,298 --> 01:01:28,868
I want to just quickly go through
while I have you here,  , this

1181
01:01:28,868 --> 01:01:30,338
is the, the bonus version

1182
01:01:31,088 --> 01:01:36,038
pat and Chris are locked in a dynamic,
what Schnarch calls gridlock and how Pat

1183
01:01:36,038 --> 01:01:42,268
can begin this really powerful process
that is, is so wild to, to start to

1184
01:01:42,268 --> 01:01:45,818
do it in my own life, but you have to
be pretty grounded, have those four

1185
01:01:45,818 --> 01:01:49,718
points of balance down, but it's what
Schnarch calls constructing the crucible.

1186
01:01:49,943 --> 01:01:52,223
Because that starts to bring
personal growth and integrity

1187
01:01:52,223 --> 01:01:52,973
into the relationship.

1188
01:01:53,553 --> 01:01:55,933
So in their relationship,
Pat and Chris are, they are

1189
01:01:55,933 --> 01:01:57,443
entrenched, they are in gridlock.

1190
01:01:57,723 --> 01:02:00,973
For Pat, gridlock happens because they're
constantly accommodating Chris's needs,

1191
01:02:00,983 --> 01:02:04,583
sacrificing their own desires to get
rid of the conflict or the tension.

1192
01:02:05,183 --> 01:02:09,203
On the flip side, Chris relies
on, on this accommodation to avoid

1193
01:02:09,403 --> 01:02:11,933
any kind of self confrontation
or any kind of introspection.

1194
01:02:12,206 --> 01:02:15,326
And pretty much just disregards
Pat's needs entirely.

1195
01:02:15,916 --> 01:02:16,696
So both are stuck.

1196
01:02:17,081 --> 01:02:18,661
Pat feels invisible and undervalued.

1197
01:02:19,091 --> 01:02:21,111
And then Chris feels entitled
to have their way, but still

1198
01:02:21,111 --> 01:02:24,811
fundamentally insecure, needing
Pat's constant interaction to

1199
01:02:24,811 --> 01:02:26,011
maintain their sense of control.

1200
01:02:26,531 --> 01:02:30,971
So in, in gridlock, Schnarch talks about
how each partner is pushing the other

1201
01:02:31,431 --> 01:02:35,481
Pat seeking validation and connection
by sacrificing their needs, hoping

1202
01:02:35,481 --> 01:02:39,341
Chris will reciprocate and Chris seeks
control and validation by expecting Pat

1203
01:02:39,351 --> 01:02:41,191
to meet their needs without a question.

1204
01:02:41,801 --> 01:02:45,161
So neither can really validate themselves
without needing the other's approval.

1205
01:02:45,881 --> 01:02:47,331
That creates the power struggle.

1206
01:02:47,841 --> 01:02:50,411
Pat is just yearning to be seen.

1207
01:02:50,601 --> 01:02:53,551
And Chris wants to feel respected
and right, and both feel

1208
01:02:53,551 --> 01:02:54,911
disappointed and frustrated.

1209
01:02:55,471 --> 01:03:00,701
So what Schnarst calls constructing your
crucible becomes the only path forward.

1210
01:03:01,231 --> 01:03:01,871
Let me take that back.

1211
01:03:01,881 --> 01:03:06,541
It becomes a, the path forward that
I know that appears to work the best

1212
01:03:07,341 --> 01:03:11,121
because in his framework, constructing the
crucible is about extracting your personal

1213
01:03:11,361 --> 01:03:15,961
unresolved issue from the gridlock,
so essentially using the conflict.

1214
01:03:16,451 --> 01:03:18,911
as a mirror to confront
your own needs and your own

1215
01:03:18,911 --> 01:03:20,161
insecurities, your own limitations.

1216
01:03:20,461 --> 01:03:24,421
So instead of trying to change Chris
or work on the relationship, Pat

1217
01:03:24,561 --> 01:03:28,251
has to focus on themselves, building
resilience and clarity and beginning

1218
01:03:28,251 --> 01:03:31,641
to live from a place of, what we
talked about earlier, integrity.

1219
01:03:32,596 --> 01:03:34,946
So here's what that constructing a
crucible might look like for Pat.

1220
01:03:35,246 --> 01:03:38,136
First, identify the personal issues
that are embedded in Gridlock.

1221
01:03:38,626 --> 01:03:42,316
So for Pat, the issues embedded might
include a fear of rejection, or a

1222
01:03:42,316 --> 01:03:45,876
need for external validation, or a
strong compulsion to avoid conflict.

1223
01:03:46,096 --> 01:03:48,826
They may have learned that their
value is tied to being accommodating

1224
01:03:48,836 --> 01:03:50,866
or good in the eyes of others.

1225
01:03:50,886 --> 01:03:53,636
They are a human doing, not a human being.

1226
01:03:54,206 --> 01:03:56,626
So the relationship with Chris
brings all those underlying

1227
01:03:56,626 --> 01:03:58,326
issues right up to the surface.

1228
01:03:58,926 --> 01:04:02,646
So by recognizing that these are the
personal issues, Then Pat can start to

1229
01:04:02,646 --> 01:04:05,686
see that their compulsion to appease
Chris isn't even necessarily about

1230
01:04:05,686 --> 01:04:08,866
Chris, it's about Pat's own beliefs
about worthiness, fear of disapproval,

1231
01:04:08,976 --> 01:04:10,326
discomfort with self expression.

1232
01:04:11,716 --> 01:04:13,796
, one of the second things , to
acknowledge when you're trying

1233
01:04:13,796 --> 01:04:16,056
to construct this crucible is
you have to own your projections.

1234
01:04:16,066 --> 01:04:19,056
So Pat's projection might be that, that
by pleasing Chris, they'll eventually

1235
01:04:19,056 --> 01:04:20,381
get the love and validation they crave.

1236
01:04:20,591 --> 01:04:23,491
As, as if Chris's approval will
complete their whole sense of self.

1237
01:04:23,491 --> 01:04:24,761
That's all I need to feel better.

1238
01:04:24,761 --> 01:04:28,041
But , this is an external
solution to an internal issue.

1239
01:04:28,271 --> 01:04:31,571
Only Pat can validate their worth and
begin to operate from their own integrity.

1240
01:04:32,091 --> 01:04:35,591
So constructing that crucible means
Pat begins to own this projection,

1241
01:04:35,611 --> 01:04:39,051
acknowledging it's not Chris's
validation that will make me feel whole.

1242
01:04:39,851 --> 01:04:43,381
And this involves a painful, but, but
I think pretty liberating realization.

1243
01:04:43,731 --> 01:04:47,061
That their true value comes from within,
not from Chris's opinion or approval,

1244
01:04:47,061 --> 01:04:51,541
because if that's the case, I'm always
worried about how Chris is showing up or

1245
01:04:51,591 --> 01:04:52,991
, seeing me if I'm playing the role of Pat.

1246
01:04:53,405 --> 01:04:57,335
And so then more of constructing the
crucible, you have to act with integrity

1247
01:04:57,525 --> 01:04:59,635
instead of seeking, , reciprocity.

1248
01:05:00,195 --> 01:05:03,125
So constructing the crucible at
its heart is about acting from

1249
01:05:03,125 --> 01:05:06,245
integrity, even if Chris doesn't
change or respond positively.

1250
01:05:06,495 --> 01:05:09,905
For Pat, this means standing by their
values and their desires and not

1251
01:05:09,905 --> 01:05:11,415
backing down simply to please Chris.

1252
01:05:12,015 --> 01:05:15,735
A quick example, if Pat wants to pursue
saving for the trip or attending a

1253
01:05:15,735 --> 01:05:19,095
social event, they may get by stating
their preference clearly and holding

1254
01:05:19,095 --> 01:05:24,405
steady without apologizing or diminishing
their stance , and  not acquiescing

1255
01:05:24,415 --> 01:05:26,195
to this desire to cater to Chris.

1256
01:05:27,115 --> 01:05:30,515
So by focusing on their own values and
their own boundaries, then Pat develops

1257
01:05:30,515 --> 01:05:32,085
the resilience to validate themselves.

1258
01:05:32,235 --> 01:05:35,835
And that starts to build this inner
strength that does not hinge on Chris's

1259
01:05:35,845 --> 01:05:40,425
reactions that helps Pat feel more
self assured and it reduces their

1260
01:05:40,425 --> 01:05:41,965
need to manage Chris's feelings.

1261
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:46,160
So now, now this crucible
is in full effect.

1262
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,000
We are extracting growth
from the discomfort.

1263
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,730
, the crucible experience is going to
be uncomfortable and by holding onto

1264
01:05:52,730 --> 01:05:56,090
their values, Pat starts to experience
pushback, criticism, even the withdrawal

1265
01:05:56,090 --> 01:05:58,080
from Chris, more buttons will be pushed.

1266
01:05:58,570 --> 01:06:00,440
So the key is for Pat
to view this discomfort.

1267
01:06:00,510 --> 01:06:01,580
This is part of the growth.

1268
01:06:01,650 --> 01:06:02,620
I know I'm doing it right.

1269
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,480
So instead of feeling like they
are failing when Chris reacts or

1270
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,590
resists, Pat can recognize it by
staying true to themselves and

1271
01:06:08,590 --> 01:06:09,790
seeing new buttons be pushed.

1272
01:06:10,210 --> 01:06:11,240
They are forging.

1273
01:06:11,565 --> 01:06:15,975
A stronger sense of identity, a stronger
sense of resilience, and that endurance

1274
01:06:16,035 --> 01:06:19,315
transforms the relationship gridlock
into a growth opportunity for Pat.

1275
01:06:19,985 --> 01:06:23,515
Now, technically for Chris as well,
but that might mean an end of the

1276
01:06:23,515 --> 01:06:27,185
relationship, but by staying in that
discomfort, Pat starts to build the

1277
01:06:27,185 --> 01:06:31,455
muscles of self worth and the muscles
of self validation, and then now Pat

1278
01:06:31,455 --> 01:06:35,645
starts to really acknowledge and accept
and understand that , each challenging

1279
01:06:35,645 --> 01:06:40,125
interaction actually becomes this
way to reinforce their integrity.

1280
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:42,250
And then , how does
that shift the dynamic?

1281
01:06:42,770 --> 01:06:45,740
If Pat commits to acting from a place
of integrity, rather than constantly

1282
01:06:45,740 --> 01:06:49,740
accommodating Chris, the dynamic naturally
starts to change because Chris may

1283
01:06:49,740 --> 01:06:54,600
initially react negatively or resist Pat's
newfound steadiness or, , consistency.

1284
01:06:55,130 --> 01:06:58,380
But Pat's shift is eventually going to
challenge Chris to confront their own

1285
01:06:58,380 --> 01:07:02,010
insecurities and entitlement, whether they
change or not, Pat's no longer defined

1286
01:07:02,010 --> 01:07:03,580
by the need to manage Chris's emotions.

1287
01:07:04,180 --> 01:07:06,950
So using the relationship
itself to grow individually.

1288
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,090
Rather than fixating on changing
the relationship or changing Chris.

1289
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,690
And so over time, I really think
Pat's crucible work starts to

1290
01:07:13,690 --> 01:07:16,880
create enough space for both
partners to potentially grow.

1291
01:07:17,046 --> 01:07:21,596
Even if Chris remains resistant,
Pat is empowered to operate within

1292
01:07:21,656 --> 01:07:26,266
this place of self respect, clarity,
integrity, and,  Pat will find their

1293
01:07:26,266 --> 01:07:27,826
own value beyond Chris's validation.

1294
01:07:28,116 --> 01:07:31,836
And that crucible process can be the
foundation that Pat needs to live

1295
01:07:31,836 --> 01:07:34,916
authentically, regardless of, of
whatever the relationship itself is.

1296
01:07:35,826 --> 01:07:37,436
Turns out to be or how it shifts.

1297
01:07:38,386 --> 01:07:42,656
Now that Pat has constructed the crucible,
now we're back to their embarking on a

1298
01:07:42,656 --> 01:07:46,086
journey that allows them to explore who
they really are separate from Chris's

1299
01:07:46,116 --> 01:07:50,556
needs or expectations or reactions that
becomes a powerful foundation for Pat to

1300
01:07:50,556 --> 01:07:52,716
begin understanding their true character.

1301
01:07:53,266 --> 01:07:57,246
Who they are at their core and that allows
them to build a more solid, flexible

1302
01:07:57,246 --> 01:08:01,096
sense of self gone is that false self
and through that process, Pat starts

1303
01:08:01,096 --> 01:08:05,806
to cultivate being more authentic, more
resilient, more consistent, and eventually

1304
01:08:05,806 --> 01:08:09,306
reaching this place where they can act
from a place of integrity because they

1305
01:08:09,306 --> 01:08:12,076
brought their character, they developed
their character, and now they can act in

1306
01:08:12,076 --> 01:08:16,546
integrity even when things are tough and
I think what Pat will find is they will

1307
01:08:16,556 --> 01:08:20,536
start to become more clear on what truly
defines them and it could be values like

1308
01:08:20,546 --> 01:08:24,826
honesty, kindness, resilience, adventure,
fun, curiosity, and they can start to

1309
01:08:24,826 --> 01:08:27,746
recognize and appreciate those qualities
in themselves because no doubt they have

1310
01:08:27,746 --> 01:08:31,796
not even had , the mental fortitude or
the emotional time or space , or energy

1311
01:08:31,796 --> 01:08:35,526
to explore , what their values are,
because they're so busy managing Chris,

1312
01:08:37,126 --> 01:08:40,886
They're no longer molding themselves
to fit Chris's demands or expectations,

1313
01:08:41,036 --> 01:08:44,676
but they're beginning to act from a
place of integrity where every choice,

1314
01:08:44,916 --> 01:08:46,646
it shows their true sense of self.

1315
01:08:46,646 --> 01:08:47,356
What did we learn today?

1316
01:08:47,676 --> 01:08:52,956
I think what we explored is this whole
journey of, of uncovering, embracing your

1317
01:08:52,956 --> 01:08:57,476
character and your integrity, but that
one takes self awareness and courage.

1318
01:08:57,536 --> 01:09:01,326
And for so many people, it's going
to start with the recognition that

1319
01:09:01,326 --> 01:09:04,846
we've been living from a place of
accommodations or conformity and often

1320
01:09:04,846 --> 01:09:06,626
trying to fit into molds set by others.

1321
01:09:07,486 --> 01:09:10,106
So whether through relationships or
whether through social circles, we can

1322
01:09:10,106 --> 01:09:13,056
start to fall into patterns where we
dismiss our own values or don't even

1323
01:09:13,056 --> 01:09:16,206
know what they are to just meet the
expectations of everybody around us.

1324
01:09:16,686 --> 01:09:20,076
True character, true integrity,
it comes from within.

1325
01:09:20,156 --> 01:09:24,456
So it requires you to step away from
the external validations and discover

1326
01:09:24,456 --> 01:09:26,946
what you stand for at your core.

1327
01:09:27,046 --> 01:09:30,471
So when you cultivate a strong sense
of self, Then you're better able to

1328
01:09:30,471 --> 01:09:32,221
align your actions with your values.

1329
01:09:32,221 --> 01:09:35,851
And you start to build more of this
life that reflects who you really are.

1330
01:09:35,851 --> 01:09:39,591
You find your sense of purpose and
, your life is not consist upon trying

1331
01:09:39,591 --> 01:09:43,531
to manage somebody else's emotions or
figuring out what's wrong with you,

1332
01:09:43,551 --> 01:09:45,141
you get to start being and doing.

1333
01:09:45,981 --> 01:09:49,151
And in any path to self discovery,
I think the values that you start to

1334
01:09:49,171 --> 01:09:53,071
determine and hold, those will not only
help you develop your character, but

1335
01:09:53,101 --> 01:09:55,121
also the strength of your integrity.

1336
01:09:55,161 --> 01:09:57,811
And by being willing to confront
your projections and your desires, we

1337
01:09:57,811 --> 01:10:01,341
make room for a deeper understanding
and fulfillment first with yourself.

1338
01:10:01,731 --> 01:10:03,761
And then it's something you
can offer to somebody else.

1339
01:10:04,161 --> 01:10:07,001
And you learn to prioritize self
validation over needing anybody

1340
01:10:07,001 --> 01:10:08,011
else to tell you you're okay.

1341
01:10:08,581 --> 01:10:13,231
And I think that really allows you to
operate more from this place of truth

1342
01:10:13,811 --> 01:10:15,471
and not just trying to avoid discomfort.

1343
01:10:15,831 --> 01:10:18,381
And then you don't just eventually
define , your character.

1344
01:10:18,671 --> 01:10:19,351
You live in it.

1345
01:10:19,421 --> 01:10:23,111
You create a basically this legacy of
integrity that then people know you,

1346
01:10:23,131 --> 01:10:24,941
they know that this is who you were.

1347
01:10:25,145 --> 01:10:26,455
, and that, my friends.

1348
01:10:26,455 --> 01:10:30,345
Is something that I think would be amazing
for each one of you to, to know, if you

1349
01:10:30,345 --> 01:10:33,595
don't know what that feels like, that
is a, I don't know what I don't know,

1350
01:10:33,595 --> 01:10:38,135
but trust me, that is a wonderful place
to be, to get to know yourself, to love

1351
01:10:38,135 --> 01:10:41,495
yourself, you have to be able to take
this time to explore your own values.

1352
01:10:41,515 --> 01:10:43,485
And right now you can even start
looking at, you know, being aware

1353
01:10:43,485 --> 01:10:45,975
of it, listening to podcasts or
journaling, have honest conversations

1354
01:10:45,975 --> 01:10:49,855
with yourself about what feels right
at your core and then validate yourself

1355
01:10:49,955 --> 01:10:51,555
instead of seeking external validation.

1356
01:10:52,365 --> 01:10:55,815
And that can just, it can look like
some, some positive affirmations,

1357
01:10:55,865 --> 01:10:57,235
the kind that you really believe.

1358
01:10:57,985 --> 01:11:01,095
And you'll start to build this resilience
to stay more authentic under pressure.

1359
01:11:01,145 --> 01:11:03,685
And it will allow you to show up in
your relationships as your genuine self.

1360
01:11:04,465 --> 01:11:07,195
Those things will help you
figure out who you are.

1361
01:11:07,265 --> 01:11:11,575
And once you know who you are, then
you will have a, an easier way to,

1362
01:11:11,575 --> 01:11:14,885
to show up and behave in a way , that
will help build emotional safety with

1363
01:11:14,895 --> 01:11:18,095
those that you care about, but more
so like you will just feel alive.

1364
01:11:18,895 --> 01:11:19,495
That's my hope.

1365
01:11:19,990 --> 01:11:22,830
, send me your questions, your feedback,
let me know how this goes for you.

1366
01:11:22,830 --> 01:11:26,350
I would love to hear success stories
or challenges or, , share this

1367
01:11:26,350 --> 01:11:28,550
episode , if it resonated or you
think it can help somebody else.

1368
01:11:28,610 --> 01:11:32,170
And then once again, I thank you for
your support and I will see you next

1369
01:11:32,170 --> 01:11:34,380
time on waking up to narcissism.

1370
01:11:34,580 --> 01:11:35,170
Taking us out.

1371
01:11:35,610 --> 01:11:36,140
Riley Hope.