Hey, everybody.
Welcome to episode 124 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of
the Virtual Couch Love ADHD.
And, uh, I would love for you to follow me on social media at virtual.
couch on Instagram, at virtualcouch on TikTok.
You'll find me on YouTube, actually the Virtual Couch Podcast Network.
And you can watch , this podcast right now on YouTube, . And.
, sign up for the newsletter.
It's either in the link tree, , wherever you're listening to this, watching this,
go, go find that, , or go to tonyoverbay.
com, I want all of your questions, I want your questions about narcissism,
emotional immaturity, I want the text messages that you get from yourer lover.
Alright.
Your partner.
And if you're curious on, Hey, is this gaslighting or how do I respond to this?
Because I would love to feature more of those on upcoming episodes.
If you have general mental health questions, if you follow me on
any of the social media platforms, I do live question and answer.
Sessions with my daughter, McKinley, my daughter, Sidney.
We do those quite often, typically , on a Sunday night, sometime during the week.
So send me those questions.
I would love it.
That'd be wonderful.
What a, what an incredible song by Riley hope.
, , I really feel like I have found my anthem for waking up to
narcissism, Riley song, not my job.
And I'm just grateful that, that we connected and that she has
allowed me to put her track here.
And I'll also have a list in the show notes of all the places
that you can find her music.
And I'm sure you can find it wherever you, you stream your music, but I'll
have some links in there as well.
So let's get to today's episode.
First.
The disclaimer, and I wish I could do this in such a cool movie trailer voice.
The names and distinguishing characteristics of the following
story have been changed, but it is absolutely based on a true story.
So a client recently told me about a friend of theirs, and
we'll call their friend Evander.
That is not their real name.
Not really even close.
But Evander is a very friendly, well liked guy known for being agreeable,
Evander is easy going, and according to my client, and we will call my client
Sam, again, not her real name and not really very close either, but Sam
says that Evander is truly one of the funniest human beings on the planet.
Sam said that Evander doesn't like to make waves and often just goes along with
others ideas, but then she also hears him have just hilarious takes and jokes
about, you know, He's gone along with when they get together one on one, but
she believes, and he often says that he is truly just a go with the flow kind of guy.
And so one evening, Amanda's friends invite him to attend a social club that
is in their area that hosts regular events around the town where they live.
The club's organizers are well known in the community and they do really
good work with local charities, but.
They are also tied to various stories about some bad business dealings, the
kind where the phrase, um, well, it's, uh, it's business, business is business,
which personally drives me insane.
I don't like hearing that because in my experience, that typically means
that something, , pretty, pretty shady, or maybe not even necessarily shady,
but something manipulative is going on where somebody is hiding behind this.
This concept of, Hey, it's just business.
Because it's in essence saying, that's what I'm allowed to just, just look out
for me and have no regard for anyone else because I get personal gain from it.
Because what often follows the, Hey, it's business is, well,
what were you supposed to do?
Again, it's business.
Sam said, a couple of the guys tied to the club are known to make , very
offensive comments about different groups of people, ethnicities of
people in the community, but Evander recently started his own business.
And so he was absolutely thrilled to get the invite to this club because he
desperately wants to play a larger role in the overall social scene in their town.
And he knows that that could potentially really help out his business.
, Evander has also learned that there are a few of his other friends and
some business associates that he was aware of that are part of this club.
, he figures it's a good thing.
So, he decides to join and then he brushes off.
The occasional off color remark is, hey, they're just joking around.
You know, everybody, everybody's a, everybody likes a good joke.
Over time though, Sam said that the off color jokes, the remarks,
they started to really bother her.
And Sam and Evander have always been close and Sam has very strong opinions.
And she said that she values respect.
She values justice.
She values inclusion.
The more that Sam talks to Evander about the club or the meetings or
the people that are involved, the more he starts taking on more of
the tone and the vibe of the club.
There's that concept of where you find that , you are, what is the phrase , you
are a, some of the five people you spend the most time around, , it is
something to be aware of because I don't know if you ever noticed that
sometimes you start taking on the.
Conversational style, some of the words, some of the mannerisms of people
that you spend a lot of time around.
Sam started noticing that Evander was doing that.
So Sam eventually questioned Evander about it and asked, Hey, why, why are
you still involved when the club's values don't really seem to align
with your overall friendly and what I thought that you also had an inclusive
nature and Evander got a little put off and responded that he doesn't really
necessarily agree with the comments.
But he stays because of the opportunities and the connections
that he gets through the club.
And Evander reassures Sam that it's just, just something that you just
need to learn to overlook because he believes that it's just a small part
of an otherwise positive experience.
So as time passes, Sam notices that Evander is less open and actually less
respectful in certain conversations as though the club's attitude
has started to influence his own.
And so then Evander dismisses Sam's concerns and claims that his
membership in this club doesn't really mean anything about his character.
But Sam realizes that in a way, Evander has chosen more, maybe it's more the
convenience over his own principles or not wanting to deal with uncomfortable
things, or he's desperately craving this validation from this larger
group of people that he admires.
Almost like the cool kids club.
And so she sees them often squirm around topics that he once didn't
squirm when they would talk about.
But when she tried to talk to him about those things, he immediately
defends himself without asking Sam any questions about what is
she seeing from her vantage point?
Maybe help him understand his blind spots.
But she was expressing genuine concern over her friend because
she had this unique view of him.
And she was owning that that was a, her thing.
She felt like she was seeing what accommodations that embracing this new
club, their leaders and the character and their morals of those individuals was
doing to him, despite his absolute denial that he was changing at all or adopting
any of the values or morals of the group.
And that incident along with the day to day doing and being , that is happening.
Has left me thinking a lot lately about my own sense of self or a sense that
unfortunately, I feel like I've only started to build over the past few years.
And in a few weeks, I will be celebrating my 55th birthday.
But I look back realizing that for a long time, I was walking around
trying to be the person that I thought others wanted me to be.
Kind of like Evander in this story that I was trying to get people to
like me, to be comfortable with me so that maybe they would even love me.
But that led to constantly questioning myself and I'm
wondering, what is wrong with me?
And what do I need to do in order for people to actually want to
know who I am or be curious?
And then it hits me, if I don't know myself, then how on earth am
I going to be able to love myself?
And that really is a me issue.
And so once I embrace that, I started the hard, but I think
incredibly rewarding journey of discovering who I am, finding myself.
And, and starting to really love myself.
And so just like a Vander is confronted by the need to make a
choice about his own character.
Then I realized that getting to know myself really did mean discovering what
were my true values, not just going along with the flow to avoid conflict.
It might've been something I was modeled , in my childhood.
, , it becomes a difficult, but freeing journey learning to be,, authentically
yourself, even when those around you have different expectations of who
you are or their own experiences, and they want you to validate them.
It means that instead of.
Waiting for others to define me, I had to look inward and I had to
learn to self validate and I had to learn to find peace and purpose
in my own values and character.
I think this is so applicable to the Waking Up To Narcissism
audience because you have people that , that have been managing
other people's emotions, anxieties.
. But if you are one of those people who are starting to wake up to your own emotional
immaturity or narcissistic traits or tendencies, then I would imagine there
is a bit of a, I don't know who I am.
So that part is similar on both sides of the fence from the pathologically
kind to the emotionally immature.
That we truly didn't know what we didn't know.
And you're starting to go on this journey of figuring out who you really are.
And as cliched as it sounds, here's the truth.
You're good.
You're pretty amazing because you're the only version of you that walks the
face of this earth with your nature and your nurture and your birth order
and your DNA and your abandonment, your rejection, your hopes, your fears,
your dreams, walking around on this spinning ball of dirt, and you bring
something so unique to the table.
So when you recognize that.
And when you embrace that inherent worth and your true value, then you no longer
need others to define or even accept you.
Because you become able to operate from this place of integrity, acting
in alignment with who you truly are, And I think as I see others that are
struggling with this journey, which is what you do as a mental health
professional, I can't help but hope that they will get there to discovering
the values that feel right to them.
The values that are at their core, because it's those values, our morals,
our principles that define our character.
When we act from that place of integrity, then people know us for who we really are.
And while it's a deeply personal journey, I sometimes worry that many
of us , like Evander are on paths that might lead to places of regret,
because it's really easy to get caught up in being agreeable, , to fitting in.
But if those actions aren't in harmony with your true character, then they
ultimately can't bring you peace.
Instead, , they keep you from living as the fullest, truest version of yourself.
Because as you start to figure out who you are and you bring to the table
every bit of your own true self, when you recognize that your inherent worth,
, your true value, then everybody else who's trying to tell you how you're
supposed to think and feel and do.
I mean, they can, they can go bless themselves.
Because you're good, you love yourself, you have love to give, not so that you'll
be okay, but because you already are okay, and you've discovered yourself, you've
chosen yourself, you love yourself, so now, let's have a healthy relationship,
where we come together as two individuals with different experiences,
and now let's go experience life because life is here to be experienced.
And it's a lot of fun when you can experience that with another person who is
also just on that path of being and doing.
But , as I've been on this path of self discovery that I think I've
also stepped out of my role as the nice guy, the people pleaser, the
emotionally immature person who self sacrificed for everybody around me.
And now I see things a little differently.
And I think what breaks my heart are all the people that I care about.
Even those I don't know who I do worry are still on that journey
of trying to find themselves and not realizing that your true self
discovery means finding your own values
and your own morals, the values and morals that you are okay with at your very core.
Because those values, those morals, those are what help you develop your character.
And when you act in alignment with your character, now you're
operating from a place of integrity.
And people will start to trust that you are who you say you are.
, I know that this is a me issue, but I see people desperately trying to find
themselves in ways that, again, I worry that they'll regret someday because they
may come to realize that their actions weren't truly in harmony with their
real character because character and integrity aren't just about the values
that we openly, I don't know, champion.
So let's, let's talk about integrity for a minute, because I want to make the
distinction between integrity and your character, because I think those two
things are, they're often misunderstood.
They're often viewed , as the same.
And one I do think really plays into the other.
So think of integrity as keeping your promises, whether it's to yourself
or whether it's to others, but it's staying true to your values and
then not bending them even when it's tough or when nobody's watching, even
when there's pressure from others.
To change your behavior.
If you don't really feel like that is something that is true to you.
So integrity is more about aligning what you say and what
you do with what you believe.
And that's one of these things where I think it's so important
to have integrity in order to become more emotionally consistent.
And it's really like being your own anchor, no matter what the situation
is, you're going to stay steady in who you are and what you stand for.
Now we'll talk more about differentiation a little bit later on , in the show.
And I do believe that our goal is to have a solid, but flexible sense of self.
So even when I'm operating from a place of integrity, which there's my
anchor, but I am open to someone's.
Feedback because that I do wanna be the very best version of me, but ultimately
I'm anchored in me and not trying to, , , bad analogy hand the anchor
over to someone else to lug me around,
. An example might be, imagine somebody , , who values honesty and they tell
their friends, they tell everybody around that they are committed always
to being straightforward with them.
And what's funny is in the world of narcissism or emotional immaturity.
You'll often hear this phrase, well, you know, me, and I feel like
that's the person saying, right?
I mean, this is, this is what you think I am versus do I know myself?
So if you take this person that prides himself on being very honest and very
straightforward, but then take one evening where then, you know, this
other friend asks the person who's going to be honest for some really honest
feedback, because I know you're always honest with me on some personal project.
, some names, , let's go with a friend's reference.
So we'll say that, , Monica is the honest one , and she just says, I'm always
honest, you know, me, I'm always honest.
And then Rachel comes up to her and says, okay, Monica, I know
you're always honest with me.
I really need some honest feedback on a personal project that I'm working on.
But now all of a sudden, Monica feels pretty uncomfortable sharing her real
thoughts because she really doesn't want to hurt Rachel's feelings.
So instead, she gives kind of vague, maybe overly positive feedback, but it
really doesn't reflect on how she feels.
Now, in that case, , then Monica is compromising her integrity.
Now, she values honesty, but then her fear of causing discomfort leads her to
act out of alignment with that value.
But here's where that solid and flexible sense of self comes in.
Because maybe then, honesty, brutal honesty, blunt honesty,
isn't necessarily her core value.
And she maybe has more of a value of compassion is what
she's noticing in this situation.
But rather than providing the constructive feedback that you know her, she's always
going to give you, then she sacrifices her principle of honesty for the
sake of keeping things calm, or maybe taking a little bit of an easier route.
And I give this example For a reason, because when I'm doing values work with
people, and I talk a lot about this on the virtual couch podcast, when you're
talking about the concept of acceptance and commitment therapy, which I love,
once you realize that there's nothing wrong with you, you're human, you're
not broken, you're going through life for the very first time as you, so check
that out, these are experiences that you're having, then you can start to
look at, okay, well, now what do I do?
And I need to figure out my values.
It's really quite a journey to start figuring out what is important to you.
And you have to go and interact with the world in order to figure
out what is important to me.
So someone might say, I have a very, very strong value of honesty, but
then they're met with people who are asking them for their opinion.
And they, they realize, Oh, well, I don't want to hurt this person's feelings.
So if your value is honesty, and that is your core value, and you're
going to act in a way that is going to be in alignment with your, who
you are, what it's like to be you.
And you want to come from a place of integrity, , then the yeah buts that
are going to come along are, yeah, but I might hurt this person's feelings.
And we're saying, okay, well, I might, but that's not necessarily a productive
or helpful thought if I am going to act from this place of integrity and I'm
going to honor my core value of honesty.
But what you might find in that situation is now I'm realizing I
have more of a value of compassion.
So then the yeah, but might be, well, yeah, but you're
not really going to be honest.
And then we're accepting that, Oh, I'm not even arguing that because
that's not a productive thought toward my value of compassion.
I really think that the more we realize , that we're, it's okay to
be us, then we can start to interact.
We can start to, to not need somebody else to tell me what I'm thinking
or how I'm feeling or what to do or what I should be doing because
nobody likes to be should on.
And then I can start to recognize what my values are and when I'm
acting in accordance with those values and I'm showing up pretty
consistent with that, now I'm operating from a place of integrity.
Because in this situation, , Monica's lack of integrity could start to harm
the trust of their friendship , if Rachel really senses that that was
insincere later, or learns that Monica didn't give the honest feedback that,
that Rachel was really asking for.
That misalignment, I think is really subtle, but I think it's pretty
significant because acting with integrity, Would then involve Monica finding a way
to communicate her thoughts constructively and kindly and I think that's where we
jump back into the all or nothing black or white thinking where we assume that,
okay, well, I guess I got to be brutally honest, but , , if that is one of my core
values, I'm going to act from a place of integrity and this person Knows me
as somebody that is willing to deal with the discomfort and provide constructive
feedback, knowing that it is my feedback is my opinion on what you're doing.
And I think that's this whole significant thing as well, because you're ultimately
the one who knows what is best for you, but I'm willing to provide my feedback.
, , okay, let's go with another example.
We'll go with the fictional characters, Tom and Jerry, but
this is based off real life events.
So let's say you've got somebody named Tom and Tom presents himself as somebody
who has pretty high moral character.
And he regularly speaks about the importance of respect and
kindness and fairness , and equality and inclusiveness and,
. , he volunteers in his community and he helps, , I want to say homeless pets at
a shelter, but he's a really good person.
He's involved in his church community and he condemns behaviors like
dishonesty or cruelty and others.
And he really prides himself on, on these values.
He sees himself as a principled person who sets a strong example for others.
And this is real.
People do see Tom as this person.
One day Tom meets Jerry.
Jerry is this charismatic new friend who , is very, , prideful, but
also seems to be successful and he's pretty, charming at times.
And so Jerry is openly dismissive, though, of others feelings.
He'll make an offensive joke at somebody else's expense, and then he will, on
occasion, when he's just around his friends, he'll boast about manipulating
people to get whatever he wants.
, despite witnessing Jerry's behavior, And knowing that it conflicts with,
Tom's own values, Tom's kind of drawn to Jerry's confidence and his influence.
And he starts to enjoy the perks of being in Jerry's social circle.
, he rationalizes this.
This disconnect by telling himself that, you know what, everybody has flaws.
Nobody's perfect.
Or that he can't just, , ignore Jerry's comments because otherwise,
um, Jerry's pretty fun to be around.
And Jerry's going places.
But by continuing the friendship without addressing the behavior or
setting boundaries, Tom's starting to operate without integrity because
he's excusing Jerry's openly harmful actions and he's failing to live up
to the values that he claims to hold.
And this lack of alignment, it undermines Tom's own character and he's
essentially prioritizing his desire for connection or for status or to just
have things be easier in his own mind Then his, his values, then a stated
commitment to kindness and fairness.
And what is unfortunate is that as much as that he's now acting out
of alignment with who he claims to be, he still is assuming that he
is viewed as that person by others.
But then other people will start to question Tom's authenticity, wondering
how is he willing to overlook behavior?
That he normally condemns and has condemned his entire life
and condemns every weekend when he, attends , his church functions
or when he's out in the community.
And what does that say about him?
Does it reveal that what will start to be questioned is his high moral character.
It's conditional only when it benefits him personally, because if Tom was acting with
integrity, he'd confront the inconsistency either by addressing Jerry's behavior.
Although We're here on Waking Up to Narcissism.
, you know by now that , you can't give Jerry the aha moment or the epiphany.
And those who don't know narcissism, , they believe that Jerry is, acting from a
place of integrity even though his stance on things changes every five minutes.
It depends on whoever he's in front of that it changes.
Tom now is understanding, okay, , this is my opportunity in my interactions
with Jerry or, even learning more about Jerry that that doesn't feel right to me.
There is that cognitive dissonance.
And if I want to act from a place of integrity, then I need to be willing to
sit with that discomfort, set boundaries and distance myself from this person.
Because.
At some point, those who Tom believes he has influence on, whether it's the members
of his family or his community, they're also having their own moments and they're
also seeing Jerry's behavior and they're also starting to recognize, feel like
I'm acting out of alignment with with my integrity or my own character if I am
supporting this person so then this is Tom's opportunity for self confrontation
for growth, to do the right thing.
Even if it is a difficult thing, , can he now distance himself from
somebody who disregards the values that Tom claims to hold dear.
Instead of tolerating it, excusing it, , he's letting his stated principles
take a back seat and that starts to reveal that his values are negotiable
and they really are contingent upon if maintaining them, , if it's convenient.
So by character, because character , is maybe a broader
sense of who you are at your core.
It's a blend of your beliefs and your habits and your morals.
. The way you handle yourself in both the good and the challenging times.
So people might describe somebody with strong character as dependable
or somebody who always seems to know what the right thing to do is, even
if it's uncomfortable or inconvenient.
That character , is really who you are at your core.
And then integrity is how you are showing up.
And then character It's the full package of our choices and our values.
integrity it's how we show up consistently over time.
The big differentiator of integrity and character is if someone truly feels like
it's okay , to manipulate others, to put down those who are less fortunate,
that is their character they are acting in a place of integrity because
that's who they are at their very core.
And then their character is if , they believe it is okay to put down women,
put down, , other, , races, if it's okay to, , name call, if it's okay to
throw, , jabs And if it's okay to, to boast, to put people in the one down
position and they really do believe at their core , that is okay, then they
are acting from a place of integrity.
And then that is their character.
That is their whole package and how they show up consistently over time.
And please do not get me wrong.
That is not somebody that want to hang with my whole point.
There is that what is, wild and it's one of the things I'm seeing more
showing up , in my office is that.
I'll give you an example of bringing up something about triangulation.
With someone and they were saying that I'm asking other people in your
family, and they also think that you are doing whatever this thing is that
let's say the narcissist is accusing.
They're a partner of, and I literally point out, oh, that's triangulation.
. That's a negative thing.
That's trying to get someone else involved.
In saying that, okay, if we gang up on my partner, then maybe I
can get them to bend to my whim and do the things I want them to.
And this person essentially said, oh yeah, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
And there's been other situations , where , that is who the person is.
And I'm trying not to make a strong judgment, although I think I'm literally
doing that right now, because if that person isn't saying, but I, yeah.
Tell me more.
I don't know.
What I don't know is that.
Is that a bad way to show up in the relationship?
Because if they're not genuinely curious, And their partner is saying
this is something I don't appreciate.
That's in the relationship.
And the therapist is saying, yeah, that's a pretty well
known psychological phenomenon.
That is controlling and will not build true connection and
intimacy in our relationship.
But then if the person answering it's like, oh, okay.
But that is what I would like to be doing.
Well, then , they've defined , their character.
And there are characters that, oh no, you do control your partner.
So I am acting.
And from a place of integrity.
, , I had one of these situations recently and I still remember my, origin
story of the person that sat in my office and literally just looked me
dead in the eye with his wife there.
And he said, Yeah, I did all those things when we were dating.
. But yeah.
When now that we've been married, I don't do any of those things.
Nobody does.
That's not what you do.
And I now realize looking back that, oh, that was his true character.
That he felt like, oh no, you, of course you manipulate you manipulate until you
get what you need, then you back off.
That's what everybody does.
Right guys doing the old right guys thing, looking behind him.
Nobody's there.
Or maybe some other narcissist and they've got some club.
But in that scenario, , if that person is willing to say.
But I don't know.
What I don't know is that actually not.
The healthy way.
And I would hope that the fact that you're sitting in a therapist's office.
Your wife's crying right beside of you and the therapist is trying to hold his
crap together might be a key that, yeah, it's probably not the best way to go.
But then you can see where somebody could just argue so easily because they are
saying, but you guys don't understand.
This is the way I operate.
But the therapist is so desperately.
No, I can get through to this person.
And the spouse says I couldn't have picked someone like this.
So maybe it is my job to help, help convince him, or am I supposed to learn
how to not have needs in a relationship?
To be clear.
When someone, when that is who they are, that is their character.
And they're operating from a place of integrity.
And that's the kind of behavior that will ultimately harm his reputation.
Because as people start to recognize the inconsistency between his words
and his actions, Then he will be less dependable, less reliable.
People will go to him less.
So enter the world of narcissism, where now gaslighting is a
childhood defense mechanism.
If somebody lacks this real sense of self, and then , they are trying
to act from a place of integrity.
Well, they don't really know who they are.
So integrity is somewhat out the window.
But their character can change like the wind, it can go different directions.
There's no consistency.
I think you can start to see why it's so important to know who you are, to be
able to operate from a place of integrity and then do that consistently so that
you can show what your character is.
Character that is the set of moral and ethical qualities that
define who we are at our core.
Shaped by beliefs, values, habits, and it really does show and reflect how we
approach ourselves, others, and the world.
And a person's character is often judged by the, the qualities
that they consistently show, like honesty, empathy, dependability.
So somebody with strong characters develop those qualities deeply, they
are deeply rooted in them, , and they will be known for sticking to them.
Integrity.
is about aligning one's actions with those core values and principles.
Living out the character that they believe in.
Integrity means acting in ways that reflect your values, even when
it's difficult or inconvenient.
, it's this bridge between believing in certain qualities and then
consistently practicing them, which requires self awareness.
It requires a lot of courage to act from a place of integrity
. A person might have really strong character in theory, but they
lack integrity if they don't follow through with their values.
And on the flip side, integrity strengthens your character because each
action that aligns with one's values, it's like going to character and integrity
gym, reinforces who you really are.
But, character and integrity aren't just about the values that we openly believe.
They're also shaped by the behaviors and actions that we're willing to
accept or ignore or rationalize.
So in this sense, what we choose to even dismiss can reveal just as much
about us as what we stand up for.
, it's about where our own internal deal breakers lie.
. For example, if we encounter behaviors , that conflict with our principles
with our values, but we still choose to look the other way for personal
reasons, then we really might be compromising part of our character.
And this process of questioning what we accept or allow is in
itself, an act of integrity.
Because I think that , we're all faced with these moments where
our values clash with our choices.
And how do we reconcile , those tensions, that discomfort by asking
yourself, what does it say about me if I'm willing to overlook this?
, we can explore character as a journey of self reflection where each decision
informs who we are and how we're seen by others, often in ways that we might not
even anticipate, because I think this really speaks to the essence of character
and integrity, because I really hope that as you're starting to wake up to either
the emotional immaturity or narcissism in your relationship and recognizing
that now it's a time to figure out who you are, or again, you're waking up
to your own emotional immaturity, Or narcissistic traits and tendencies that
it is time to figure out who you are.
Because I think that we really need to examine what we allow or what we excuse in
our lives and our relationships and , in our interactions, I think those decisions
do start to echo in our own sense of self.
When life pressures kick in, whether we're talking about work, stress, relationship
strain, financial worries, integrity and character are going to get tested.
And for one, staying true to your values might mean making choices that
aren't the easiest or the most popular.
You know, integrity can be tough because it often requires us to sacrifice
comfort or immediate gratification.
We might even find that some friendships don't want to stay around.
, it's a bit like a workout for your moral muscles, being consistent
in who you are takes resilience.
And I think character can also be tested because sometimes, especially when we're
feeling insecure, it's tempting to just cut corners, justify behaviors, slip
into a, , just this one time mindset.
And then the more we give in, the easier it becomes to shift away
from who we actually want to be.
, life's pressures don't just test us once, they'll keep on challenging us,
making it essential to really know who you are, reflect regularly on whether
you are staying aligned with the values that matter most., how do integrity
and character play into this podcast?
How do they play into your relationships?
Because I think when it comes to relationships, integrity
and character can be a game changer, but they're also tricky.
, for example, being in a relationship might bring situations where you're
tempted to say something that you don't believe just to keep the peace.
And I'm pretty sure they shared a little while ago that I want to start bringing
more awareness around what a healthy relationship would look like because.
If you are listening at this point.
I do believe that you're waiting for , the unicorn part of the
story, the rainbow, the pot of gold.
Because if you are trying to express . Your self from a place of integrity
right now, most likely it is going to be turned around and thrown back on you.
And I think that's part of the significance.
I think of today's podcast.
Because even if you were starting to develop a little bit of your own sense
of self or starting to recognize that something like kindness, compassion,
empathy, that those are part of , your character, but then if you are
acting , from a place of integrity.
Those things were then.
Turned around on you.
In, in the form of gaslighting or in the form of making you feel
bad about your kindness or about your empathy or your compassion.
And I still remember working with someone and we were talking about
how that becomes a sense of betrayal.
And I think that it's almost handled similarly to work.
I do with betrayal trauma.
Where you are going into this relationship and you've brought , your
junior or baby version of , your character based off of your growing up.
And now you're bringing it into this relationship.
And saying, Hey, here's my heart.
Here.
My emotions.
And I'm going to trust you with them and this person saying that's not who you are.
And then you are.
Are desperately fighting to say, but this is, and I need to figure out a
way to communicate to this person that is not only unwilling , to hear it or
communicate about it, but they're going to actually turn it back around on you
because they know that's important to you and tell you that that is not who you
are and put you in that one down position so that they can maintain control.
Because it
they lack a sense of self , to the point where they just need another interaction
with a human to know that they exist.
But the way that they exist is to make themselves.
In a one-up position and that is so much of The injustice of what being
in a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature or has these
narcissistic traits and tendencies.
That's why that can feel so wrong because you're starting to develop your
true sense of self as you start to get out of adolescence and into adulthood.
And now it can speed up the process.
If you are in a, an emotionally healthy relationship.
, as we say, in the world of emotionally focused therapy, we're actually
designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human.
But concert of emotion should not be.
, I can't even think of a great, a funny analogy here.
But it shouldn't be that you're hitting each other over the
heads with your tubas, I guess.
But it should be.
You're learning how to play this music together and you're open to feedback.
Because you only bring yourself , to the relationship and here somebody
has all their own experiences.
So, wow.
I can't wait to have these shared experiences, not.
Here's my experience and somebody saying, well, I don't think that's who you are.
And that's the part that just.
, I'll get off my soap box.
Now the wind machine will go turn that off.
Take off the wig, if you aren't watching on YouTube, actually, that
was not what I was doing, , hope.
You can see why I just feel like . This episode is so important to talk about.
We need to get you back to figuring out.
What is your character?
So you can operate from this place of integrity and then start to show up
consistently and model this amazing version of you to your kids, , or
that will help you find a healthier relationship moving forward.
But if your integrity is strong, you're more likely to speak honestly, kindly,
even if it risks some temporary tension.
And this honesty creates trust, which I think that then becomes the
backbone of any strong relationship.
Because a partner can sense when you're being true to yourself,
which I think fosters more of a deeper connection over time.
And if it doesn't, you're also exposing their emotional immaturity.
But you know that you're showing up consistent, acting
from a place of integrity.
Character, on the other hand, that's like the emotional foundation that
you bring into the relationship.
, if you're somebody who values kindness and respect, your partner will feel that in
the way that you treat them, especially when things get really difficult.
And the person who has a solid character, they keep their word.
They own up to their mistakes.
They show up for their partner consistently.
But in challenging moments, showing character might also mean setting
boundaries or saying no to preserve both your integrity and your mental health.
So while integrity and character are tested in life's pressures,
they also start to build resilience in the relationship.
And then every single test will start to strengthen a healthy
relationship, by showing both partners who they are, even when things get
real, even when things get tough.
So now let's dig even deeper and I want to dive into why integrity and
character are extra challenging for somebody who either lacks a sense of
self, , and we're talking again, either when they're the pathologically kind
person or if they're the emotionally immature or narcissistic partner.
Enter the pathologically kind person we'll call them Pat and the emotionally
immature person we'll call them Chris.
First, let's talk about the challenge of integrity, , without
really knowing who you are, without this strong sense of self.
Because you are the pathologically kind person you are Pat.
So For somebody who's used to being the pathologically kind person, I think
integrity can feel particularly confusing because the boundary between what they
genuinely believe and what they do to please others, it gets pretty blurry.
Because if you're constantly adjusting your behavior to avoid conflict, you
don't want to make anybody uncomfortable.
You want to make everybody else happy.
Then it's really easy to lose touch with your own values.
And I find that so many of the pathologically kind people that come
out of unhealthy relationships and start , raising their baseline, figuring
out who they are, start from a place of, I have no idea, which makes sense
because you've been the people pleaser or you've been the person who has taken on
everybody else's feelings and emotions, most likely throughout your life.
Because remembering that integrity, that requires knowing what you stand for.
But if you're habitually catering to somebody else's needs and reactions,
I'm not saying this in a negative way, we're here, , we're figuring this out.
Then especially if you're doing that to an emotionally immature narcissistic
partner, I would imagine you are rarely in a position to really try to even explore
what your own beliefs and values are.
I don't even know if you would have the time.
And so that starts to leave the pathologically kind person
feeling really fragmented.
Probably more like a chameleon because you're always trying
to adapt to the other person.
And I have had people in my office, when we start talking about values, , they
will say, well, what's the value that, that aligns with being a chameleon?
Because I'm good at that.
. So you probably find yourself saying yes, when you mean no, a lot, or agreeing
to things that don't really sit right with you, simply because it feels
safer than avoiding rocking the boat.
And this pattern can create a lot of inner conflict, because you're essentially
then out of alignment with yourself, and without a strong sense of self.
to anchor you, not a judgment, it really starts to be harder and harder , to
discern where your partner's needs end and your own begin that whole concept
of being differentiated where one person ends and then the other begins, because
that can be really, really difficult when you don't know who you are.
It only makes sense that then it would be hard to find that separation.
So that was integrity.
Now we're talking about character and navigating emotional immaturity.
So character.
Or, more of a strong emotional foundation comes from understanding
and respecting your own boundaries, your own values, your own emotions.
But if you've been conditioned to ignore your own feelings, to keep the
peace as again, most pathologically kind people are, then your sense of
character often also gets sidelined.
So this lack of emotional foundation means you're more likely to question your own
feelings and prioritize your partner's emotional landscape over your own.
So when your partner is emotionally immature, they display the
narcissistic traits and tendencies.
Then they're most likely pretty dismissive and, and.
probably invalidating of your feelings when you try to share them.
And then they might twist those situations, which typically leave
you wondering, am I overreacting?
You know, is it really that bad?
And then that doubt further weakens your own sense of self, and it makes it so
much more challenging to build character.
And here's the catch.
Here's where we start putting the pieces together.
Personal integrity requires character.
You need that foundation to feel solid and act in ways that reflect who you are.
Especially in the face of opposition or pressure.
, building integrity and character in the face of narcissistic traits.
, here's where the journey of self discovery, of emotional
maturity becomes really crucial.
Because to step out of that pathologically kind role, it's essential and
necessary to start tuning into your own feelings and starting to ask
yourself, what does matter to me?
Because gradually you can start to cultivate integrity by making real
small decisions that start to reflect your values, even if it's as simple
as saying no to a request that doesn't really line up with what you want.
And over time, every choice that you make, that you honor your values, and
again, if you don't know what your values are, start taking little steps,
making little choices, because that will help you uncover your values.
But as you do that, then that starts to strengthen your character,
providing that emotional foundation that you need.
So with practice and consistency, you'll find it easier to hold
steady when your partner's reaction tries to pull you off course.
So instead of feeling obligated to keep the peace at any cost, then you
start recognizing that staying true to yourself , is a form of self respect.
It's a form of self care.
And in a way it's the very essence of emotional maturity
. So next up enter the emotionally immature, who also is operating from a lack of self.
We will call them Chris.
So let's take a look at why it's also a challenge for the emotionally
immature person or somebody with even narcissistic traits and tendencies.
It's difficult for them as well to operate from a place of integrity.
And this is particularly difficult for them because like the pathologically kind
person, they are often disconnected from their true self and they are truly living
from a place that is the false self.
And emotionally immature and narcissistic people usually create this false
self as a defense mechanism it's an identity that they built , to
present themselves as impressive or in control or above reproach.
And they've developed that version of themselves because
it goes back to childhood.
At a young age, they learned that showing vulnerability or weakness was not safe.
At all.
And they also probably didn't see it modeled.
So instead of exploring, embracing who their true self was, or having a
secure attachment with a parent that was going to say, Hey, how are you feeling?
Or what do you want to do champ?
Then , they were told , this is what you need to do in order
to be valued or be validated.
You have to be incredibly special.
Instead of ever really exploring any flaws because they couldn't have
them, then they become hyper focused on maintaining a particular image.
One that makes them feel valuable, one that makes them feel secure.
And one of the easiest ways they do that is to put you in that one down position
because what does that put them in?
The one up.
So operating from this whole false self makes integrity really
difficult for a few reasons.
First, integrity requires a willingness to look at oneself honestly.
So when the pathologically kind person can step out of their role of trying to
manage everybody else's emotions, they're usually okay at starting to look at
themselves honestly, although they will feel bad or feel like it's selfish, but
when you're talking about the emotionally immature or narcissistic person, then it.
They already feel like they see themselves honestly, and they are going
to convince you that that is the case.
That's what makes it so difficult because they have to self confront
, and admit that they aren't showing up in the best way for you, their
partner, even for themselves.
And then they'll have to admit that also there is room for growth.
They might have to admit that they don't know what they don't know.
For somebody who's heavily invested in their false self.
Self reflection is a giant threat and that's where the extreme discomfort
comes in and the emotionally immature narcissistic person wants
nothing to do with that discomfort.
, it is natural for them to bat that discomfort away by then defending
themselves, putting them in a one up position, putting you down.
Because admitting a mistake, admitting a flaw, all of a sudden that feels
like an attack on their very identity.
They will avoid it at all costs.
They'll defend, they'll deflect, they'll lie to protect the, this whole
constructed self image, the false self, which makes acting with integrity.
Pretty much impossible because rather than asking, Hey, what's
that, what aligns with my values?
They're asking, Hey, , what keeps me looking good or what
keeps me in this one up position.
I think that this also speaks to when you're talking about the emotionally
immature, that there's a lack of internal consistency because it means
that they lack an internal foundation, which is absolutely necessary.
If you're trying to act from a place of integrity, because then this,
this narcissistic person sense of self is so reactive because it's
based more on how others perceive them than on any stable inner values.
It is just a flow, an inner flow state of narcissism.
So as a result, they find themselves behaving inconsistently.
They will change their stance based on who they're with or what they want
in the moment or how they are feeling.
And that inconsistency, it really does look like saying whatever they think
will make them seem right or powerful, but inside, , it just fosters more of
this insecurity and even confusion.
So without this inner stability, they also struggle with a consistent moral compass.
And if their main objective is to avoid shame or guilt or responsibility,
then they are absolutely less likely to act in ways that respect anybody
else's boundaries or feelings because those don't matter if they are in
the way of the narcissist or the emotionally immature person, then they
are they are to be toyed with and they are to be crossed immediately
because a boundary to a narcissist is a challenge.
, and so their decisions are based on protecting themselves rather than
aligning with genuine values because their values shift at any given moment,
any second, because , integrity requires vulnerability and a strong sense of self.
And that is, almost an impossibility for them to genuinely care about whether
their actions match any internal standard.
Because they're just more focused on survival that gaslighting is a childhood
defense mechanism And I I've often thought whatever their birth year is.
I want to get a shirt that says, you know confabulate and
since 69 Something like that.
For the emotionally immature or narcissistic person to move even
close to integrity They would need to start recognizing and questioning
the limitations of their own sense of self their false self.
And that is I wouldn't even call it hard work.
It's, it's almost impossible because it means letting go the illusion of control
or perfection and they've depended on that for survival for so long.
So they would have to actually accept the fact that it's okay to have flaws
and it's not that Because, well, I do, but you do too, or I do because you
made me and are, they might have to accept that they don't know everything
and they would have to feel vulnerable.
And then in theory, as they recognize that their worth isn't dependent on that
constructed identity, then they can start building a more genuine sense of self.
And if they were to do that small steps toward integrity become possible.
For instance, if they started practicing, even acknowledging mistakes or simply
listening to somebody without turning the conversation back to themselves.
, those actions could theoretically help them find some stability.
But there's the big question is that if the person isn't truly trying to
self confront and grow, then they're really operating from a place of
trying to figure out, Hey, just tell me what I need to do , to still be
able to take this one up position.
There's a big question that comes up in the private women's Facebook
group about people will ask about the people that are the self proclaimed
narcissists who are trying to get on social media and say, I'm a narcissist.
And here's what we think.
But what is fascinating is in theory, then that would say that if that
person is still narcissistic, then they just found another way to get
their supply, which is that validation of saying whatever it is that they
feel like is the right thing to say.
But I would imagine that most likely would change at any given moment, because if
they still are the narcissist that they claim to be, they are operating from
a false self to get that validation.
So now let's talk about Pat and Chris.
. I'm going to give you two scenarios with Pat, the pathologically kind person,
and Chris, the emotionally immature.
And I want to show you how these interactions keep them both locked in this
cycle that reinforces their insecurities and their lack of self awareness.
So the first one, conflict over social plans.
So Pat and Chris, they're invited to a friend's party.
And Pat actually really enjoys socializing, but Chris feels
insecure in social settings, but is not going to say it that way.
So they tend to make real dismissive comments or complain
about any kind of event.
And especially because this is what Pat wants to do.
So the interaction, as they get ready to leave, Chris starts expressing
their frustration, saying things like, Man, these people are so fake.
I don't even know why we go.
And then Pat immediately picks up on Chris's resistance, Discomfort and
instead of addressing their own desire to attend starts reassuring Chris, you
know, we don't have to stay long and if you're uncomfortable, we can leave early.
So Pat's already preparing to minimize Chris's discomfort and willing
to sacrifice their own enjoyment.
So they make it to the party, Chris makes a ton of passive aggressive remarks like,
it's exactly why I hate these events.
Everybody's pretending to be something that they're not.
You know, Pat sensing Chris's discomfort goes into overdrive
because that's what Pat does and attempts to make Chris feel at ease.
So Pat starts to subtly distance themselves from others or trying to
shield Chris from conversations or redirecting attention whenever Chris
starts to really look uncomfortable.
And man, Chris lets Pat know I am uncomfortable.
So then after the party, instead of reflecting on their own
feelings, Pat focuses on Chris's experience saying, Hey, I hope it
wasn't too uncomfortable for you.
I really appreciate you going.
And so what's Chris going to do?
Respond dismissively.
I don't even know why he made us go.
And that leaves Pat feeling guilty, leading Pat to apologize despite
wanting to attend the event in the first place, but they would never say that.
So what does that result in?
In that interaction, both Pat and Chris show up in ways that keep them stuck.
Because Pat is constantly trying to manage Chris's emotions and
sidestepping Pat's own preferences.
And so by catering to Chris's discomfort, Pat reinforces the idea
that Chris's feelings are paramount.
And , that Pat's own wishes, are paramount.
Need to take a backseat and I think that kind of self sacrifice, that's
what leaves Pat feeling unfulfilled, coming from a place of self betrayal
and absolutely unseen, unacknowledged.
But then Chris, on the other hand, it gets to avoid taking any responsibility
for their, the discomfort that they put into that social situation.
And instead, they project their frustration on the Pat and they get
to blame Pat for the whole experience.
I can't believe we even had to go and Chris will hold
that over Pat for days now.
It will be brought up anytime that Pat wants to go to anything else social.
So, Chris.
It's to remain comfortable in this pattern of emotional immaturity,
because they believe that their feelings take precedence without
any need of self reflection.
, scenario two, a financial decision.
Pat and Chris are discussing finances.
Pat mentions wanting to save up for a trip that they've
been talking about for a while.
Chris, though, dismisses the idea, saying, we just, we can't afford it.
Doesn't offer any specific reason, and starts then, buying, Things
that they need and items for themselves, not consulting Pat.
So then Pat, eager to keep the peace, wants to avoid confrontation, decides,
Okay, I need to let this slide and I will manage the finances really
carefully to make sure that Chris doesn't get frustrated or upset.
So Pat rationalizes, you know what, I guess maybe, probably
Chris is right, maybe it's not the right time to save for a trip.
But inside, Pat feels some resentment building up.
And so then as the months go by, Chris continues to make all kinds of
financial decisions without Pat's input, but Pat doesn't want to bring it up.
Cause it's uncomfortable and Pat knows that it won't go well.
So when Pat finally brings the trip up again, Chris becomes so defensive, saying,
You always want these unrealistic things.
, I am the practical one here.
If it wasn't for me, we'd be broke.
So Pat, feeling shut down, feeling guilty for even bringing
it up, immediately backtracks.
No, you're right.
I didn't, I don't want to make things harder for you.
So in trying to please Chris, Pat reinforces the idea again.
That Chris's opinions are superior, that they are valid, that they are the only
ones that we can talk about, while Pat's feelings are not worth standing up for.
So what happens in that dynamic?
Pat constantly avoids bringing up their own wants, fearing it's
going to create conflict, it's going to make Chris uncomfortable.
Pat's tendency to people please, because that's what Pat does, makes
them accepting Chris's dismissive or controlling behavior as almost inevitable.
And so that keeps Pat feeling unworthy of even bringing things up.
It definitely knowing that that Pat doesn't have equal input in the
relationship and Pat becomes convinced that their own needs are secondary because
that's what their needs were as a kid, Chris actually gets more emboldened.
And, and becomes more emotionally immature and continues to make these
unilateral decisions because they can.
Because Chris's lack of self awareness, their reluctance to have any kind
of compromise, then it deepens their dependence on having absolute control.
So they remain in this position where they don't have to address
their own insecurities, or they don't have to consider Pat's needs,
because they are accustomed and used to Pat just adjusting to them.
If Chris says something, Pat just backs off.
So how does that keep them both stuck?
I think it's kind of obvious, in this framework where Pat continually
accommodates Chris's discomfort, Chris dismisses Pat's feelings.
That is a toxic loop because Pat's pattern by continually catering
to Chris, Pat loses more and more of their own sense of self.
And then they start identifying as the caretaker and the relationship,
believing that Chris's happiness is actually their responsibility.
This is my lot in life.
This is what I'm supposed to do.
And that is the kind of mindset that keeps somebody, a good person like
Pat locked into people pleasing and self sacrifice and they eventually try
to make sense of it or justify it in their own minds, Pat's not about to
express or prioritize their own needs.
Chris's pattern, which I think is so fascinating when you look at
this way, and this is why it just creates that human magnet syndrome.
Ross Rosenberg calls it the crisp.
Becomes not challenged, never challenged to grow emotionally.
Not, I'm not saying that it would work because we know we can't give
them the aha moment, but the lack of any kind of confrontation allows
Chris to live pretty comfortably and their emotional immaturity.
Cause they still get to continue to blame others, avoid self reflection.
, their defensive behavior just intensifies because they've come to
expect that Pat will cater to their needs and Pat will do anything they
can to smooth over any discomfort.
So that is this reinforcing cycle because every time Pat sacrifices
their own needs, they reinforce the idea that Chris's feelings
are, , they are top of the mountain.
They are paramount.
And while Chris becomes increasingly dependent on Pat's attention
and emotional management.
So if Chris needs to know that Chris exists, , let me get in a scrap
with Pat so that I can take the one up position and know I'm good.
But it actually leaves them both feeling unfulfilled because if Pat feels
invisible, Starts becoming resentful and Chris becomes increasingly demanding
and dismissive and trapped in almost like this fragile sense of superiority.
So without any kind of intervention or self awareness, Pat and Chris will
stay in this dynamic forever where Pat's kindness turns into a compulsion
to cater Chris's emotional immaturity creates this constant need to control.
And then that cycle not only keeps them stuck, but it reinforces.
This false self that we talked about earlier, that is what
their, their sense of self is based off of is this toxic cycle.
So they are nowhere close to figuring out what their character is so they
can act from a place of integrity.
So Pat needs help and that help with theoretically pressure
the relationship for growth.
But it might really only be Pat who benefits from the pressure for growth.
So enter the picture, my favorite David Schnarch's four points of balance.
And this is how we're going to outline a strategy for Pat to
break free from the pattern of people pleasing and self sacrifice.
So this approach is one that can help Pat build a stronger sense of self while
navigating the relationship and learn to hold steady, even when Chris's reactions
might tempt them to revert to old habits.
Am I only focusing on Pat?
Yes, I am.
And, ,, first, let me, let me , define the concept of differentiation from
David Schnirsch, he defines it as people's ability to balance humankind's
two most fundamental drives.
We have this desire for attachment and connection on one hand, but we also
have a desire to be an individual.
And direct the course of our own lives on the other.
And that refers to the ability to hold on to yourself.
Even when important people in your life are trying to pressure you to
conform to what they want you to be.
So differentiation, it yields emotional autonomy.
And that becomes the basis of healthy interdependence.
And the foundation for intimacy, for polarity, for stability
in long term relationships.
Even though it might seem counterproductive at first.
Because we get into these relationships and we think that we have to be on
the same page on everything, but we're two different humans, we can show
up different in the relationship, and that can actually build, , polarity.
It can build, the positive tension in the relationship.
So there's differentiation.
So now we go into his four points of balance.
The first one, having a solid but flexible sense of self.
What does that look like?
Having a clear sense of who you are and what you believe, even when other
people disagree or they disapprove.
So that right there is the ability to remain true to yourself without rigidly
clinging to one perspective or feeling threatened by somebody else's opinion.
In these scenarios, we'll go back to that party scenario.
Instead of prioritizing Chris's discomfort, Then Pat would
remind themselves that they genuinely enjoy socializing.
They want to attend the party for themselves.
If they can just even start by identifying and honoring that desire,
then Pat can eventually get to a place where they can express it.
I don't even know if I want to use the word, but assertively, maybe more
intentionally saying things like, I really like seeing our friends and
I would like for us to go, if you are not comfortable, , we can stay
for a shorter time, or I will go.
And you can stay here, but I would like to attend now, right now, if you're in
the relationship with the emotionally immature narcissistic person, you can, I
think I covered this a couple of weeks ago about the episode where I thought there
were some really bad tools being shared saying, Hey, just use empathy with the
narcissist and they'll say, Oh my gosh, , that, that works on me, which it does not.
So in this scenario, I am saying that this would be after a period
of time where you are developing these differentiation skills.
And then we'll talk about this where you're going to say things
from a place of integrity, but it is not looking for an outcome.
That's the party scenario.
If we go to the financial scenario, kind of a similar thing in the conversation
about finances, then Pat would have to take the time to recognize and accept
their own desire to save for a future trip without immediately deferring
to Chris's more critical viewpoint.
So Pat would eventually get to this place of saying something like, I
really value having these experiences together, traveling together.
And I think planning this trip is important to me.
So I would like for us to discuss how we can make that possible.
The second point of balance, one of the biggest keys, quiet mind, calm heart.
What is that?
It is being able to manage your own thoughts, your own emotions,
especially in stressful situations.
And this point of balance is, is a challenge.
It takes a lot of work.
It takes mindfulness and meditation and being able to build a pause
because this one allows you to stay a little more calm and self regulated
instead of just reacting defensively or even just reacting out of habit.
So let's go back to the party scenario.
If Chris starts making negative comments, Pat can use this as
an opportunity to focus inward.
It goes in practice, calming techniques, a little deep breathing, silent,
reminding themselves that their own intentions are good for the night.
Instead of rushing to manage Chris's discomfort, pack and let those
comments just roll off and notice them and quietly remind themselves that
those are definitely Chris's thoughts.
And I hear them.
They don't have to take responsibility to manage Chris's emotions.
And if we apply that quiet mind, calm heart to the financial scenario,
then when Chris dismisses the idea of saving for the trip, Pat can
practice not taking it personally.
By focusing on staying very calm and zen, Pat can avoid defensiveness and
then maintain their perspective without succumbing to Chris's criticism.
Even though Chris is probably going to even push back more and try to push
even more buttons because all of a sudden, they're not getting the rise
out of Pat and they're going to be left feeling pretty emotionally vulnerable.
For So Pat can keep this steady mind and remember why the
trip is meaningful to them.
And then Sharnarsha's third point of balance is this
concept of grounded responding.
That's the ability to respond thoughtfully, intentionally,
rather than just react impulsively.
And that involves.
Choosing actions that reflect your true values and your intentions, even
when it might feel uncomfortable.
Back to the party scenario.
So instead of reacting to Chris's negativity by immediately catering,
Pat would try to respond in a way that reflects their own desires.
For example, Chris makes a dismissive comment, Pat might respond with, I
can, I hear you don't like these events very much, but I'm looking forward
to connecting with people tonight.
That's grounded.
That response honors Pat's own feelings without getting drawn
into Chris's perspective or, or kind of getting down and wrestling
in the mud financial scenario.
So Pat would again, use a grounded response to keep the conversation
focused and assertive saying, I understand that saving might feel
challenging, but I believe this is something important to prioritize.
So rather than letting Chris's reactions derail the whole discussion, Pat
learns to stay firm in their stance and that will help them reflect a much
deeper commitment to their own wants and needs, and then this fourth point
of balance It's meaningful endurance.
So that's the capacity, the ability to tolerate the discomfort that
often comes with growth and change.
And over time, you learn to embrace the discomfort.
You know, that when discomfort is there, that I will learn something about myself.
And that is about holding steady and your choices and your values, even if
it might strain the relationship or lead to even temporary conflict, we're
kind of starting to play the long game.
Go back to the scenarios.
And the party, instead of retreating into people pleasing behaviors to avoid Chris's
discomfort, Pat needs to learn to practice meaningful endurance by standing by their
choice to attend the party, even if Chris makes negative comments, because that
endurance could mean that Pat might then face criticism or disapproval from Chris.
But if, if Pat's staying aligned with their own values, they're
building emotional resilience, they're reinforcing their own sense
of self that is starting to develop.
And in that financial scenario, in, in continuing to bring up the topic
of saving for a trip, then Pat might experience resistance from Chris.
Pat will experience resistance from Chris, who could respond with
frustration or attempts to shut down the conversation or anger or withdrawal.
But meaningful endurance means that Pat's willing to stay in this discomfort.
, they're willing to assert their needs, even if it means
navigating some tension with Chris.
When people can really start to embrace these four points of balance.
And we'll take Pat in this scenario, Pat starts to break away from
the automatic impulse to please and manage Chris's emotions.
Instead, Pat can start focusing on understanding and respecting their own
desires, their own values, and that's what will allow them to show up more
authentically in the relationship.
And then with every single interaction that reflects this self awareness
and resilience, Pat is reinforcing a new narrative about who they are.
One that is not just solely defined by how well they
accommodate or meet Chris's needs.
And then over time, Pat's new way of responding starts to,
affect the dynamic with Chris.
I'm not saying that then they both grow closer together, but by refusing to
act from this place of just constant appeasement, Pat starts to subtly
invite Chris to confront their own emotional responses and expectations.
And that keyword there is inviting, not demanding, not forcing, and
not even guiding, but it's just this, it's a bit of an invitation.
So that shift does not guarantee that Chris will change anything, but it offers
Pat the chance to step into a place of integrity and self respect and move from a
reaction more to this intentional action.
I want to just quickly go through while I have you here, , this
is the, the bonus version
pat and Chris are locked in a dynamic, what Schnarch calls gridlock and how Pat
can begin this really powerful process that is, is so wild to, to start to
do it in my own life, but you have to be pretty grounded, have those four
points of balance down, but it's what Schnarch calls constructing the crucible.
Because that starts to bring personal growth and integrity
into the relationship.
So in their relationship, Pat and Chris are, they are
entrenched, they are in gridlock.
For Pat, gridlock happens because they're constantly accommodating Chris's needs,
sacrificing their own desires to get rid of the conflict or the tension.
On the flip side, Chris relies on, on this accommodation to avoid
any kind of self confrontation or any kind of introspection.
And pretty much just disregards Pat's needs entirely.
So both are stuck.
Pat feels invisible and undervalued.
And then Chris feels entitled to have their way, but still
fundamentally insecure, needing Pat's constant interaction to
maintain their sense of control.
So in, in gridlock, Schnarch talks about how each partner is pushing the other
Pat seeking validation and connection by sacrificing their needs, hoping
Chris will reciprocate and Chris seeks control and validation by expecting Pat
to meet their needs without a question.
So neither can really validate themselves without needing the other's approval.
That creates the power struggle.
Pat is just yearning to be seen.
And Chris wants to feel respected and right, and both feel
disappointed and frustrated.
So what Schnarst calls constructing your crucible becomes the only path forward.
Let me take that back.
It becomes a, the path forward that I know that appears to work the best
because in his framework, constructing the crucible is about extracting your personal
unresolved issue from the gridlock, so essentially using the conflict.
as a mirror to confront your own needs and your own
insecurities, your own limitations.
So instead of trying to change Chris or work on the relationship, Pat
has to focus on themselves, building resilience and clarity and beginning
to live from a place of, what we talked about earlier, integrity.
So here's what that constructing a crucible might look like for Pat.
First, identify the personal issues that are embedded in Gridlock.
So for Pat, the issues embedded might include a fear of rejection, or a
need for external validation, or a strong compulsion to avoid conflict.
They may have learned that their value is tied to being accommodating
or good in the eyes of others.
They are a human doing, not a human being.
So the relationship with Chris brings all those underlying
issues right up to the surface.
So by recognizing that these are the personal issues, Then Pat can start to
see that their compulsion to appease Chris isn't even necessarily about
Chris, it's about Pat's own beliefs about worthiness, fear of disapproval,
discomfort with self expression.
, one of the second things , to acknowledge when you're trying
to construct this crucible is you have to own your projections.
So Pat's projection might be that, that by pleasing Chris, they'll eventually
get the love and validation they crave.
As, as if Chris's approval will complete their whole sense of self.
That's all I need to feel better.
But , this is an external solution to an internal issue.
Only Pat can validate their worth and begin to operate from their own integrity.
So constructing that crucible means Pat begins to own this projection,
acknowledging it's not Chris's validation that will make me feel whole.
And this involves a painful, but, but I think pretty liberating realization.
That their true value comes from within, not from Chris's opinion or approval,
because if that's the case, I'm always worried about how Chris is showing up or
, seeing me if I'm playing the role of Pat.
And so then more of constructing the crucible, you have to act with integrity
instead of seeking, , reciprocity.
So constructing the crucible at its heart is about acting from
integrity, even if Chris doesn't change or respond positively.
For Pat, this means standing by their values and their desires and not
backing down simply to please Chris.
A quick example, if Pat wants to pursue saving for the trip or attending a
social event, they may get by stating their preference clearly and holding
steady without apologizing or diminishing their stance , and not acquiescing
to this desire to cater to Chris.
So by focusing on their own values and their own boundaries, then Pat develops
the resilience to validate themselves.
And that starts to build this inner strength that does not hinge on Chris's
reactions that helps Pat feel more self assured and it reduces their
need to manage Chris's feelings.
So now, now this crucible is in full effect.
We are extracting growth from the discomfort.
, the crucible experience is going to be uncomfortable and by holding onto
their values, Pat starts to experience pushback, criticism, even the withdrawal
from Chris, more buttons will be pushed.
So the key is for Pat to view this discomfort.
This is part of the growth.
I know I'm doing it right.
So instead of feeling like they are failing when Chris reacts or
resists, Pat can recognize it by staying true to themselves and
seeing new buttons be pushed.
They are forging.
A stronger sense of identity, a stronger sense of resilience, and that endurance
transforms the relationship gridlock into a growth opportunity for Pat.
Now, technically for Chris as well, but that might mean an end of the
relationship, but by staying in that discomfort, Pat starts to build the
muscles of self worth and the muscles of self validation, and then now Pat
starts to really acknowledge and accept and understand that , each challenging
interaction actually becomes this way to reinforce their integrity.
And then , how does that shift the dynamic?
If Pat commits to acting from a place of integrity, rather than constantly
accommodating Chris, the dynamic naturally starts to change because Chris may
initially react negatively or resist Pat's newfound steadiness or, , consistency.
But Pat's shift is eventually going to challenge Chris to confront their own
insecurities and entitlement, whether they change or not, Pat's no longer defined
by the need to manage Chris's emotions.
So using the relationship itself to grow individually.
Rather than fixating on changing the relationship or changing Chris.
And so over time, I really think Pat's crucible work starts to
create enough space for both partners to potentially grow.
Even if Chris remains resistant, Pat is empowered to operate within
this place of self respect, clarity, integrity, and, Pat will find their
own value beyond Chris's validation.
And that crucible process can be the foundation that Pat needs to live
authentically, regardless of, of whatever the relationship itself is.
Turns out to be or how it shifts.
Now that Pat has constructed the crucible, now we're back to their embarking on a
journey that allows them to explore who they really are separate from Chris's
needs or expectations or reactions that becomes a powerful foundation for Pat to
begin understanding their true character.
Who they are at their core and that allows them to build a more solid, flexible
sense of self gone is that false self and through that process, Pat starts
to cultivate being more authentic, more resilient, more consistent, and eventually
reaching this place where they can act from a place of integrity because they
brought their character, they developed their character, and now they can act in
integrity even when things are tough and I think what Pat will find is they will
start to become more clear on what truly defines them and it could be values like
honesty, kindness, resilience, adventure, fun, curiosity, and they can start to
recognize and appreciate those qualities in themselves because no doubt they have
not even had , the mental fortitude or the emotional time or space , or energy
to explore , what their values are, because they're so busy managing Chris,
They're no longer molding themselves to fit Chris's demands or expectations,
but they're beginning to act from a place of integrity where every choice,
it shows their true sense of self.
What did we learn today?
I think what we explored is this whole journey of, of uncovering, embracing your
character and your integrity, but that one takes self awareness and courage.
And for so many people, it's going to start with the recognition that
we've been living from a place of accommodations or conformity and often
trying to fit into molds set by others.
So whether through relationships or whether through social circles, we can
start to fall into patterns where we dismiss our own values or don't even
know what they are to just meet the expectations of everybody around us.
True character, true integrity, it comes from within.
So it requires you to step away from the external validations and discover
what you stand for at your core.
So when you cultivate a strong sense of self, Then you're better able to
align your actions with your values.
And you start to build more of this life that reflects who you really are.
You find your sense of purpose and , your life is not consist upon trying
to manage somebody else's emotions or figuring out what's wrong with you,
you get to start being and doing.
And in any path to self discovery, I think the values that you start to
determine and hold, those will not only help you develop your character, but
also the strength of your integrity.
And by being willing to confront your projections and your desires, we
make room for a deeper understanding and fulfillment first with yourself.
And then it's something you can offer to somebody else.
And you learn to prioritize self validation over needing anybody
else to tell you you're okay.
And I think that really allows you to operate more from this place of truth
and not just trying to avoid discomfort.
And then you don't just eventually define , your character.
You live in it.
You create a basically this legacy of integrity that then people know you,
they know that this is who you were.
, and that, my friends.
Is something that I think would be amazing for each one of you to, to know, if you
don't know what that feels like, that is a, I don't know what I don't know,
but trust me, that is a wonderful place to be, to get to know yourself, to love
yourself, you have to be able to take this time to explore your own values.
And right now you can even start looking at, you know, being aware
of it, listening to podcasts or journaling, have honest conversations
with yourself about what feels right at your core and then validate yourself
instead of seeking external validation.
And that can just, it can look like some, some positive affirmations,
the kind that you really believe.
And you'll start to build this resilience to stay more authentic under pressure.
And it will allow you to show up in your relationships as your genuine self.
Those things will help you figure out who you are.
And once you know who you are, then you will have a, an easier way to,
to show up and behave in a way , that will help build emotional safety with
those that you care about, but more so like you will just feel alive.
That's my hope.
, send me your questions, your feedback, let me know how this goes for you.
I would love to hear success stories or challenges or, , share this
episode , if it resonated or you think it can help somebody else.
And then once again, I thank you for your support and I will see you next
time on waking up to narcissism.
Taking us out.
Riley Hope.