[Tony] Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode four hundred and
[Tony] twenty seven of the virtual couch. I am
[Tony] your host, Tony Overbey. I'm a licensed marriage
[Tony] and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, and
[Tony] I'm excited to be here today. And we're
[Tony] gonna get right to today's topic. Of course,
[Tony] I would love for you to sign up
[Tony] for my newsletter. Go to tony overbay dot
[Tony] com or follow me on social media, Instagram
[Tony] at virtual dot couch, TikTok at virtual couch,
[Tony] Facebook. I think that's Tonyoverbay, licensed marriage and
[Tony] family therapist. All those wonderful things. And if
[Tony] you like the podcast, if you ever get
[Tony] the chance, please review or rate, subscribe. YouTube,
[Tony] actually go there. And the virtual couch is
[Tony] on YouTube. I put most of the videos
[Tony] up there, and then there's a lot of
[Tony] YouTube shorts that touch on things that aren't
[Tony] necessarily things that come from the podcast as
[Tony] well. And there's all the promotion. Let's get
[Tony] to today because this is one of these
[Tony] topics that I just enjoy so much. We're
[Tony] gonna talk about relationships, and we're gonna talk
[Tony] about people and their different roles in relationships.
[Tony] And I think the best way to do
[Tony] it is I'm gonna dive into an email.
[Tony] The email is from a listener named Cleo,
[Tony] and they let me know that that was
[Tony] not their real name and their partner is
[Tony] not their real name as well. But her
[Tony] story, it touches on a lot of concepts
[Tony] that I want to go over. I'm gonna
[Tony] read the email in chunks and and will
[Tony] take a lot of time here to break
[Tony] down as much of it as I can.
[Tony] So let me start by reading the letter
[Tony] and then we're gonna go break it down
[Tony] in detail. She says the letter. It is
[Tony] an email. I don't even know if they're
[Tony] referred to as letters anymore. She sent me
[Tony] an email. So Cleo said, dear Tony, I'm
[Tony] so grateful for your podcast, all of them.
[Tony] I've been listening to your waking up to
[Tony] narcissism podcast for over a year, and I
[Tony] continue to feel like you must be following
[Tony] me and my husband around because of the
[Tony] things that you described. They are so much
[Tony] like what I am living through. This might
[Tony] seem strange, but I recently said a phrase
[Tony] that you often say that you don't know
[Tony] what you don't know followed by I was
[Tony] just being and doing. And my friend started
[Tony] laughing and saying, oh, you listen to the
[Tony] virtual couch. And she said I was confused,
[Tony] but we eventually realized that we both listened
[Tony] to you and weren't really aware of the
[Tony] other podcast. So I started listening to the
[Tony] virtual couch and I love it. But my
[Tony] friend is in a bad marriage and she
[Tony] had no idea or at least she doesn't
[Tony] want to admit that you're waking up to
[Tony] narcissism podcast might apply to her marriage. So
[Tony] I just wanted to share my story and
[Tony] then see if that might be something you
[Tony] could cover on the virtual couch because a
[Tony] lot of women and I'm sure men are
[Tony] in bad relationships, but they are only looking
[Tony] at them through the I can fix it
[Tony] or the virtual couch lens when I think
[Tony] the waking up to narcissism lens might be
[Tony] really helpful. So here's my story. I've always
[Tony] been the nice girl. Growing up, my mom
[Tony] was always on edge and I learned early
[Tony] on if I was perfect and kind, I
[Tony] could keep the peace. I became the family
[Tony] peacemaker, always smoothing things over and making sure
[Tony] that everybody else was okay. I thought this
[Tony] was just who I was, but now I'm
[Tony] realizing it might be why I'm struggling so
[Tony] much in my marriage. I met Ray five
[Tony] years ago, and at first, everything was amazing.
[Tony] He was charming and attentive. He seemed to
[Tony] need me so much. I felt like I'd
[Tony] finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness. But
[Tony] over time, things changed. Ray's moods became unpredictable.
[Tony] He'd be loving one minute and cold the
[Tony] next, and I found myself constantly trying to
[Tony] figure out what he needed, and I felt
[Tony] like I was always walking on eggshells. I've
[Tony] always been sensitive. My friends joke that I
[Tony] can feel somebody's mood from a mile away,
[Tony] but with Ray, it's kind of exhausting. I
[Tony] feel every shift in his emotions, and I'm
[Tony] always trying to make things better. The problem
[Tony] is I'm so focused on his feelings that
[Tony] I do realize I've lost touch with my
[Tony] own. Lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but
[Tony] it's so hard. There are moments when Ray
[Tony] is sweet and loving, and I cling to
[Tony] those thinking, see, he does care. So I
[Tony] just try harder, maybe things will get better.
[Tony] But then he'll say something cruel or dismissive
[Tony] and I'm right back to square one. The
[Tony] strangest part is even when Ray hurts me,
[Tony] I find myself making excuses for him. I
[Tony] think he must just be in pain to
[Tony] act this way. Or if I love him
[Tony] enough, he'll heal and things will improve. And
[Tony] I assume he feels things as deeply as
[Tony] I do, that his love for me must
[Tony] be just as intense as mine is for
[Tony] him. But more and more, I'm wondering if
[Tony] that's true. I've tried to talk to Ray
[Tony] about our problems, but either dismisses my concerns
[Tony] or turns them around on me. He'll say
[Tony] I'm too sensitive or that I'm imagining things.
[Tony] Sometimes it'll be nice for a while after
[Tony] these conversations and I'll think, hey, we're making
[Tony] progress. But then things go back to the
[Tony] way they were and I feel like I'm
[Tony] losing my mind. I know logically that this
[Tony] relationship isn't healthy, but every time I think
[Tony] about leaving, I feel guilty and I worry
[Tony] about how Ray will manage without me. I
[Tony] remember the good times, and I wonder if
[Tony] I'm giving up too easily. It's like there's
[Tony] a war in my head between what I
[Tony] know and what I feel. I have several
[Tony] friends who've been telling me for years that
[Tony] I need to put myself first for once,
[Tony] but the idea just feels so foreign, almost
[Tony] wrong. I've spent my whole life taking care
[Tony] of others, and the thought of prioritizing my
[Tony] own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable.
[Tony] And I'm starting to realize that always being
[Tony] kind isn't always being kind to myself, but
[Tony] breaking free from this pattern feels impossible. How
[Tony] do I start putting myself first when I've
[Tony] never done it before? How do I know
[Tony] if what I'm feeling is love or if
[Tony] I'm just in a trauma bond? I'm hoping
[Tony] that by sharing my story, maybe you can
[Tony] help others who might be in similar situations.
[Tony] Maybe there are other nice people out there
[Tony] who don't realize that they're stuck in unhealthy
[Tony] patterns. Thanks for all you do. Your podcast
[Tony] has been a lifeline. Sincerely, Cleo. That covers
[Tony] so many things that I think maybe you
[Tony] can see now why I thought that this
[Tony] would be it would be the perfect muse
[Tony] to talk about. So I wanna break this
[Tony] down almost line by line and pull out
[Tony] the pieces that I think will help people.
[Tony] And I like how she said there's the
[Tony] virtual couch lens, which I think really is
[Tony] learning about four pillars of a connected conversation.
[Tony] Lots of different psychology topics. Do I have
[Tony] ADHD? Am I seeking validation? And then over
[Tony] on the waking up to narcissism podcast, and
[Tony] I realized that there are people that listen
[Tony] to the virtual couch that have never ventured
[Tony] over into that world because of the very
[Tony] word itself, narcissism. But I can't say enough
[Tony] that what we're doing on the waking up
[Tony] to narcissism side is taking that word because
[Tony] it's used a lot. And one of the
[Tony] things I did early on in that podcast
[Tony] was acknowledge that narcissistic personality disorder is maybe
[Tony] three to five percent of the population, but
[Tony] it's thrown around as if it were seventy
[Tony] or eighty percent. Everybody's ex is a narcissist.
[Tony] Everybody's boss is a narcissist. Everybody's spouse at
[Tony] times is narcissistic. But what I defined early
[Tony] was we're actually all just emotionally immature, and
[Tony] that's a pretty normal part of being a
[Tony] human being because that does fit into the
[Tony] we don't know what we don't know. And
[Tony] it takes a lot of work and effort
[Tony] to to really take in new data and
[Tony] information. We may say that we like to,
[Tony] and we do, but think about that. It's
[Tony] a lot easier to take it in when
[Tony] it's pretty comfortable. And the growth actually comes
[Tony] through the discomfort. One of the key points
[Tony] about differentiation which is this need that we
[Tony] have to maintain connections with others while holding
[Tony] on to our own sense of self. And
[Tony] if we don't even really know who we
[Tony] are, as cliche as that sounds, then we're
[Tony] continually showing up in an emotionally inconsistent way.
[Tony] And when that's happening on both sides of
[Tony] the relationship, then you can just see that
[Tony] over time, it starts to feel like there
[Tony] isn't much of anything that we can talk
[Tony] about that isn't just easy to talk about.
[Tony] So her story touches on a lot of
[Tony] different concepts that that I think will help
[Tony] you if you're looking at things through whether
[Tony] it is the virtual couch lens. Really, what
[Tony] can I do to fix this or even
[Tony] maybe the waking up to narcissism lens where
[Tony] it's, okay, we're both emotionally immature? I can
[Tony] look at how I'm showing up, but I
[Tony] can acknowledge that a lot of the times
[Tony] when I'm trying to show up, my spouse
[Tony] is taking the information that I'm putting out
[Tony] there and then turn it against me and
[Tony] making me feel at times like I am
[Tony] crazy. Cleo starts by describing her childhood. She
[Tony] said, I've always been a nice girl. Growing
[Tony] up, my mom was always on edge, and
[Tony] I learned early on that if I was
[Tony] perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.
[Tony] Now I have to jump in with humor
[Tony] right away is I love when somebody says
[Tony] that they are a fan or they listen
[Tony] a lot and they say a lot of
[Tony] the things that I do find myself saying.
[Tony] But it is interesting because I can't help
[Tony] when I hear when she said I've always
[Tony] been a nice girl and my mom was
[Tony] always on edge that I go back to
[Tony] that all or nothing black or white thinking.
[Tony] And when I'm doing couples therapy, I do
[Tony] bring not even gentle, pretty aggressive awareness when
[Tony] somebody is saying he always or she always
[Tony] or she never because you watch as a
[Tony] couples therapist when as soon as the other
[Tony] person says she was always this way, that
[Tony] the other person is immediately, you can almost
[Tony] see them tune out a little bit because
[Tony] in their mind, they're thinking, okay, I can
[Tony] think of times when I wasn't. So even
[Tony] just the the semantics can become important at
[Tony] times where, you know, I feel like often
[Tony] this is the case because often, okay, I'm
[Tony] I'm a little more interested. Or if somebody
[Tony] says it's been three months since he told
[Tony] me that he loves me, and if the
[Tony] guy is thinking, that's not true. It's actually
[Tony] only been two and a half, which is
[Tony] not the point. So I just think that
[Tony] that one's interesting. But she says, I could
[Tony] if I could keep the peace, I was
[Tony] perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.
[Tony] I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things
[Tony] over and making sure everybody was okay. I
[Tony] thought this was just who I was, but
[Tony] now I'm realizing it might be why I'm
[Tony] struggling so much in my marriage. And it
[Tony] is fascinating when you look at that her
[Tony] view of self is that this is my
[Tony] job to to take care of everybody. And
[Tony] I think so many people, especially, I and
[Tony] I know having grown up with a stay
[Tony] at home mom, my wife's a stay at
[Tony] home mom, and that work is incredible and
[Tony] amazing. And I think and I'm not just
[Tony] saying this, but it doesn't get its its
[Tony] due. And I because I think it it's
[Tony] just you're there all the time. It's like
[Tony] you're at work constantly, and I know that
[Tony] then a dad can come in, and now
[Tony] I get him for a few hours and,
[Tony] maybe on a weekend. And I'm saying that
[Tony] as if I'm divorced, I'm not. But if
[Tony] my wife needs to run some errands, I
[Tony] remember growing up, we had four kids. They
[Tony] were all two years apart. And then I
[Tony] would get there and basically just get to
[Tony] shake them up and watch them run around.
[Tony] And then when she comes home, help, unload
[Tony] groceries or do whatever that looks like and
[Tony] say, they were easy. And the immature version
[Tony] of me thinks, man, that's kinda fun. I
[Tony] wish I could do that all day. That's
[Tony] what the immature person will say. But so
[Tony] when somebody just feels like that is their
[Tony] whole sense of self or purpose is to
[Tony] then just give up themselves for these other
[Tony] little people. It's so admirable. It's so incredible.
[Tony] It's there's the part where it is so
[Tony] necessary, but then I think at the expense
[Tony] at times of truly still holding on to
[Tony] your own sense of self. And I don't
[Tony] even know if that can be changed or
[Tony] explained early on because it's part of that
[Tony] we don't know what we don't know when
[Tony] we're young and having kids. But with Cleo's
[Tony] situation, I think that this is where we
[Tony] get the origin story of what I like
[Tony] to call the pathologically kind person. And I'm
[Tony] gonna spend a little time with this because
[Tony] I I use this phrase often over in
[Tony] the waking up the narcissism world where there's
[Tony] often this pathologically kind person who is finding
[Tony] themselves in a relationship with a more emotionally
[Tony] immature person. And as a friend of the
[Tony] show and and author of human magnet syndrome,
[Tony] Ross Rosenberg says in his book, that forms
[Tony] a human magnet and this concept of human
[Tony] magnet syndrome is very real where the relationship
[Tony] almost becomes breakup resistant. Let's talk about pathological
[Tony] kindness. Imagine somebody who's always putting others first
[Tony] even to their own detriment, even when it
[Tony] hurts them. That is the pathologically kind person.
[Tony] It's as if they are the superhero of
[Tony] niceness, but I don't necessarily think it's so
[Tony] super for them because people that play that
[Tony] role, the pathologically kind person, they've often grown
[Tony] up in families where they had to be
[Tony] the peacekeeper or where they had to even
[Tony] be perfect to keep the peace. Maybe they
[Tony] had a parent who was always upset and
[Tony] they learned, k. If I can be super
[Tony] nice, that was the way I can calm
[Tony] things down. Or if I can be a
[Tony] perfectionist, if I can never get anything wrong,
[Tony] then maybe maybe I can diffuse some of
[Tony] this anger or frustration of my parents, and
[Tony] they will find me and I will bring
[Tony] them joy. It's like they become the family's
[Tony] emotional little firefighter. And then I don't think
[Tony] I've spent any time in the past talking
[Tony] about how significant it is to add the
[Tony] word pathology to something like kindness. Because if
[Tony] you're aware or familiar, the word pathology comes
[Tony] from this Greek word pathos, which means suffering
[Tony] or disease. And then you got logos and
[Tony] that means the study of. If you look
[Tony] at this from a medical context, pathology often
[Tony] refers to the study of disease and then
[Tony] how they impact you, how they affect your
[Tony] body. But in psychology, I think also in
[Tony] in just the the behavioral sciences, pathology is
[Tony] often used to describe patterns of behavior or
[Tony] even patterns of thoughts or emotions that are
[Tony] they can be a little bit outside the
[Tony] norm or they can even be maladaptive, they
[Tony] can be harmful, and they can cause distress.
[Tony] So now when you put those together, pathological
[Tony] to describe a behavior or any trait, what
[Tony] we're really saying is that that trait, that
[Tony] behavior is persistent and it's habitual. So it's
[Tony] pretty consistent, but it also implies that it's
[Tony] extreme or it might be a little bit
[Tony] exaggerated beyond what is considered typical or normal,
[Tony] which I know sometimes I play the normal
[Tony] police, sometimes I think who am I to
[Tony] play the normal police. But the key is
[Tony] that it can become harmful or detrimental to
[Tony] the person. So here's this trait that is
[Tony] a wonderful trait, but then it can be
[Tony] to excess. And then when somebody has this
[Tony] pathology, there's a little bit of resistance to
[Tony] change even if it's causing them problems. So
[Tony] if you look at the concept of somebody
[Tony] that's pathologically kind, if we combine those words
[Tony] together, now we're describing a pattern of kindness
[Tony] that has has been taken to an extreme
[Tony] and it's persistent and it's actually potentially can
[Tony] be harmful. When I'm working with somebody that
[Tony] identifies as pathologically kind, honestly, the last thing
[Tony] I'm trying to say is that we need
[Tony] to knock the kindness out of them, but
[Tony] has that trait been overused or overextended to
[Tony] that person's detriment? If you really look at
[Tony] why this concept then of understanding pathology around
[Tony] something like kindness, and we'll talk about it
[Tony] with other things too, it's because there's a
[Tony] few points that I think need to be
[Tony] brought up. One is excessiveness because it indicates
[Tony] that this kindness is often taken to an
[Tony] almost unhealthy extreme where it can zap your
[Tony] own sense of self. And while kindness is
[Tony] a positive trait, when it becomes pathological, it's
[Tony] not balanced or it can start to become
[Tony] unhealthy. And then there's also feeling of self
[Tony] neglect because a pathologically kind person is prioritizing
[Tony] others' needs to the point of neglecting their
[Tony] own well-being. And I know that can be
[Tony] a balancing act because when you have little
[Tony] people running around that you you can't quite
[Tony] say, okay, I need to take some me
[Tony] time. You guys just chill out. If you're
[Tony] two or three year old, their version of
[Tony] chilling out is, I don't know, playing in
[Tony] the stove or running out into traffic. I
[Tony] understand that this isn't an all or nothing
[Tony] thinking. And then typically, the person that is
[Tony] would be viewed as pathologically kind, they do
[Tony] have a lack of boundaries. And I think
[Tony] this is because they didn't see those models
[Tony] growing up. They they will struggle to set
[Tony] and maintain healthy boundaries, and that will often
[Tony] allow others to take advantage of them. And
[Tony] over on the waking up the narcissism side,
[Tony] I talk often about these five rules of
[Tony] interacting with an emotionally immature person. The first
[Tony] one is self care. Self care is not
[Tony] selfish. Raise that emotional baseline. And the second
[Tony] one is to get your PhD in gaslighting.
[Tony] Know when somebody is causing you to feel
[Tony] pretty crazy about something you're pretty certain of.
[Tony] The third one is get out of unproductive
[Tony] conversations. The fourth one is learn to set
[Tony] healthy boundaries, but that's where I I try
[Tony] to spend time differentiating what a boundary is
[Tony] versus an ultimatum. Because often we think that
[Tony] we're setting a boundary, but really we're giving
[Tony] an ultimatum. I need you to stop talking
[Tony] to me that way. Well, to the emotionally
[Tony] immature, the little kid or the adult, you
[Tony] just show them your buttons. This is what's
[Tony] important to me. So the boundary is actually,
[Tony] if you talk to me that way, then
[Tony] here's the consequence. And with an adult, it
[Tony] might be that I'm I'm gonna leave. But
[Tony] or with a kid, if you talk to
[Tony] me that way, then you are I don't
[Tony] know. You're not gonna get any dessert. That's
[Tony] not a not one that really fits, but
[Tony] but I think you see where I'm going
[Tony] there. And the fifth thing is that you'll
[Tony] never cause that person to have the moment
[Tony] or the epiphany, which is very significant because
[Tony] too often that pathologically kind person is in
[Tony] this position where, no, I will take the
[Tony] ownership of this. I will fix it. Let
[Tony] me do the research. Let me go to
[Tony] the therapist. Let me read the books, and
[Tony] then I will tell you what what I
[Tony] think would help. But to the emotionally immature,
[Tony] they're saying, oh, you are telling me you
[Tony] think what I'm doing is wrong, and then
[Tony] that's the fuel they need. So now, oh,
[Tony] I know what to do with that. Well,
[Tony] actually, you're wrong and I'm right and I
[Tony] need to go in this one up position
[Tony] because that's how I feel like I'm alive
[Tony] or that I matter. And then to the
[Tony] world of the pathologically kind, there are some
[Tony] underlying issues here because it does stem from
[Tony] deep seated issues like lower self esteem or
[Tony] this fear of abandonment or maybe even some
[Tony] unresolved trauma in childhood or even as an
[Tony] adult. And there's there's a little bit of
[Tony] a compulsive nature here too because the kindness
[Tony] becomes almost a compulsive behavior rather than a
[Tony] balanced expression of care. And this is where
[Tony] it can almost look a little bit, like
[Tony] OCD because if you think about what OCD
[Tony] is when somebody has this obsession, it causes
[Tony] them to feel uncomfortable. Let's go with the
[Tony] classic washing of hands. If they're afraid of
[Tony] getting sick and and germs or the vehicle
[Tony] and they see germs everywhere and so if
[Tony] they touch things, they now they think, oh
[Tony] my gosh, I've got germs on me and
[Tony] that causes a lot of anxiety, a lot
[Tony] of discomfort. That becomes the obsession. So the
[Tony] compulsion is to wash hands and that is
[Tony] to alleviate that discomfort. Now, unfortunately, with OCD,
[Tony] really, it will just come back again and
[Tony] again. But when you look at kindness almost
[Tony] as a compulsive behavior, then is the discomfort
[Tony] there and that someone else is struggling or
[Tony] someone didn't finish their homework, somebody forgot to
[Tony] bring their lunch to school, and so then
[Tony] that causes me to feel anxious or feel
[Tony] uncomfortable. So what's the compulsive behavior that I
[Tony] can do to get rid of that? Then
[Tony] I will I will take care of it.
[Tony] I will do whatever it takes. I will
[Tony] be I will be that kind. I will
[Tony] put my needs and wishes to the side
[Tony] and I will go take care of this
[Tony] person. So that compulsive nature is pretty fascinating
[Tony] with that. And there is a little bit
[Tony] of enablement here because the pathologically kind person
[Tony] can inadvertently, I think that's the key word,
[Tony] enable some negative behavior and, because that kind
[Tony] person is starting to shield others from the
[Tony] consequences of their actions. And I am guilty
[Tony] as all can be on this. This is
[Tony] not me saying, here's a ton of examples
[Tony] where I sat with my own discomfort and
[Tony] let my kids fail. And that's one of
[Tony] the toughest things, I think. I give this
[Tony] example of, yeah, if somebody is they forgot
[Tony] to do a school work project, man, combo
[Tony] pack of ADHD impulsivity, deadline, the dopamine dump
[Tony] of a deadline, wanting validation, all of a
[Tony] sudden, oh, let's go. Ten o'clock at night,
[Tony] this thing's due at midnight or tomorrow. This
[Tony] is when I work best. So I will
[Tony] actually now get validation from my kid. I
[Tony] will rescue them from a situation. I'll pat
[Tony] myself on the back and feel like the
[Tony] world's greatest dad. But then what do they
[Tony] do? Then did they take that now and
[Tony] say, gosh, I got to get better at
[Tony] keeping track of assignments or I need to
[Tony] really start using a planner now or do
[Tony] they just feel like, okay, that's done and
[Tony] and I'm gonna get a good grade even.
[Tony] And this will but the pathological kindness also
[Tony] will lead to difficulty in the relationship because
[Tony] this is this can lead to imbalanced relationships
[Tony] where that pathologically kind person is constantly giving
[Tony] without receiving to the point of where then
[Tony] when they need something, that is not what
[Tony] the family is used to. So then everyone
[Tony] else is busy right now, and I hear
[Tony] that story over and over again in my
[Tony] office of people that that is all they
[Tony] do is give to others. So when they
[Tony] need something, there isn't anybody there that that
[Tony] is willing to give back. And I think
[Tony] often that's because we find ourselves in these
[Tony] situations, these systems, family systems, where we fall
[Tony] into this role and the role often of
[Tony] a mom, a pathologically kind mom, is that
[Tony] I'll just I'll just take care of everything.
[Tony] Or nice guy syndrome dad will where, okay,
[Tony] I don't like the discomfort of saying no
[Tony] and people are asking for things constantly, So
[Tony] I'll just I'll figure it out. I'll work
[Tony] more. I'll do that and maybe even maybe
[Tony] they'll appreciate me. I mean, that's the hope
[Tony] a lot of times that the nice guy
[Tony] who suffers from nice guy syndrome. And that
[Tony] all leads to to an internal conflict because
[Tony] there's this disconnect from the person's excess of
[Tony] kindness and often their true feelings. Man, I
[Tony] don't want to work this much, or I
[Tony] do wish that I could engage in my
[Tony] own hobbies, but I just feel like this
[Tony] kindness, it just is there and I can't
[Tony] get rid of it. And this is what
[Tony] I do in hopes that people will recognize
[Tony] or notice or that I will then feel
[Tony] completely fulfilled from this. And that starts to
[Tony] lead to this internal distress, and we'll talk
[Tony] about that a little bit more in a
[Tony] second. But I think it's really important to
[Tony] recognize the this pathological kindness lies in understanding
[Tony] that even positive traits because that is I
[Tony] cannot stress that enough. Kindness is a positive
[Tony] trait, but when it's taken to an extreme
[Tony] that it can start to become problematic And
[Tony] that's what helps differentiate between healthy kindness and
[Tony] then a pattern of behavior that's more rooted
[Tony] in and I wanna say a psychological issue,
[Tony] but I don't want that to sound like
[Tony] we're saying that you must now go into
[Tony] a psychological hospital because you are pathologically kind.
[Tony] But if you are somebody that identifies with
[Tony] this, just talking to you, Cleo, and other
[Tony] people listening, recognize that behavior, being able to
[Tony] recognize it as, yeah, I think I am
[Tony] one of the pathologically kind, that is that
[Tony] is a brilliant beautiful first step. It's crucial
[Tony] in starting to learn and develop healthier patterns
[Tony] of interacting with others, and this is where
[Tony] those concepts of differentiation. I'm gonna have to
[Tony] deal with some discomfort now, but it's gonna
[Tony] hopefully validate your experience and help you start
[Tony] to look at your struggles. Maybe frame your
[Tony] struggles as a pathologically kind person in a
[Tony] way that can start to be addressed because
[Tony] we didn't know. And now you know, it's
[Tony] something that you can start to sit with.
[Tony] Because I think that whether you're in a
[Tony] relationship or especially if you're working with a
[Tony] therapist, understanding that that pathological kindness can guide
[Tony] the help you get the interventions that therapists
[Tony] can do to start to work with things
[Tony] like healthier boundaries, self care, and then looking
[Tony] for more balance in relationships. It might be
[Tony] recognizing some of the relationships you're in right
[Tony] now or more of this give and take
[Tony] versus the reciprocal relationships. And it helps shift
[Tony] that narrative of above all, kindness is always
[Tony] the right thing because look what our brain
[Tony] does immediately goes to, oh, so I'm supposed
[Tony] to be a jerk. Oh, no. That's the
[Tony] all or nothing black or white thinking. But
[Tony] just recognizing that there's, there's balance to be
[Tony] struck there between caring for others and caring
[Tony] for yourself. I just jotted down several other
[Tony] things that if you take them to the
[Tony] extreme, I just wanna show like what each
[Tony] side of that looks like. So take something
[Tony] like this is empathy. That's a that is
[Tony] a hot one. I talk about empathy often.
[Tony] But the positive version of that is okay.
[Tony] I am gonna try to understand and really
[Tony] I want to feel the share these feelings
[Tony] with others. The extreme version of that though,
[Tony] that maybe the pathological version is emotional exhaustion
[Tony] because now you're taking on everybody's problems as
[Tony] your own and you can have a a
[Tony] real hard time separating your emotion from other
[Tony] people's. Look at some things like ambition, the
[Tony] positive version of that, this drive to achieve,
[Tony] I can achieve goals, I can improve myself.
[Tony] The extreme version of ambition, maybe the pathological
[Tony] version, a workaholic and people that are neglecting
[Tony] personal relationships and and their health, and they
[Tony] just don't feel satisfied with their achievements. I
[Tony] I talked to someone recently that they're in
[Tony] a a large position of service in a
[Tony] land far away, but they were workaholic in
[Tony] order to become successful enough to put themselves
[Tony] in a position to go and do this
[Tony] type of work. But now that they're over
[Tony] there, the their spouse felt like, okay, this
[Tony] is a place now where we are in
[Tony] a position in our life where we can
[Tony] relax a little bit, but this person's ambition,
[Tony] I would say is pathological. They cannot turn
[Tony] it off even when they're in this beautiful
[Tony] place and they are trying their best to
[Tony] to enjoy retirement, but that is a pathological
[Tony] version of ambition. Or you look at things
[Tony] like loyalty, sounds like a great thing. The
[Tony] positive version, being faithful and supportive to friends,
[Tony] family, organizations, causes, but there's an extreme version
[Tony] or pathological version of that where people are
[Tony] so loyal that they stay in abusive or
[Tony] toxic relationships or they have a blind allegiance
[Tony] to faith or a political candidate or anything
[Tony] like that because they are being loyal. So
[Tony] that would almost be that pathological loyalty, frugality,
[Tony] something I'm not so familiar with. Positive version,
[Tony] avoiding waste, budgeting, which I've heard so much
[Tony] of. Now the extreme version, I have watched
[Tony] this in therapy, being a miser. I don't
[Tony] even know if that's Scrooge McDuck kinda language,
[Tony] but denying yourself and and your family of
[Tony] just some basic comforts. It can even start
[Tony] to look like hoarding. I remember working with
[Tony] somebody a long time ago that they were
[Tony] arguing about, a car that continually broke down
[Tony] and not even having an extra the entitlement,
[Tony] not even having an extra car if you
[Tony] can imagine this. But in this situation, a
[Tony] lot of kids, a lot of things to
[Tony] get to, and one old beat up car.
[Tony] And then at some point, the the spouse
[Tony] looked at me and said and I think
[Tony] I've told the number in a podcast long
[Tony] ago, and I'm sure I I don't remember
[Tony] the exact number, but it was something like,
[Tony] hey. Do you think having eight hundred grand
[Tony] in savings is enough that we could get
[Tony] a new car? And I spent the the
[Tony] rest of the appointment trying to stay present,
[Tony] but thinking eight hundred grand in savings. Like,
[Tony] that's that's wild. I would I would definitely
[Tony] have a a different car as well as
[Tony] maybe a a grill, gold teeth or something
[Tony] else like that, which is probably why I'm
[Tony] not in that position. Some other ones though
[Tony] is self reliance. Positive version of that, you're
[Tony] independent. You're capable. I can handle things on
[Tony] my own. The pathological version of self reliance,
[Tony] I cannot ask for help. I I'm isolated
[Tony] and I'm burned out from trying to do
[Tony] everything by myself. I will not I refuse
[Tony] to ask for help. Optimism, positive version, seems
[Tony] pretty simple. I've got a positive outlook on
[Tony] life. Extreme, this is like a this is
[Tony] a buzzword these days, toxic positivity, denying, minimizing
[Tony] real problems. You cannot process negative emotions. Humility,
[Tony] something I'm incredibly good at, insert laugh track.
[Tony] You know, the positive version of that, be
[Tony] modest about somebody's accomplishments and importance, but the
[Tony] pathological version, which sometimes I think this is
[Tony] one of the close cousins of pathological kindness,
[Tony] self deprecating. Yeah. The inability to accept compliments,
[Tony] undervaluing your own contributions and worth where you'll
[Tony] hear people often just say, oh, man. Yeah.
[Tony] I I wouldn't be able to do that
[Tony] even if I tried. Where it's something, yeah,
[Tony] they can. I know they can. This is
[Tony] one where my my wife has done this
[Tony] Alcatraz swim seven or eight times from Alcatraz
[Tony] to the shore. She's incredibly talented and and
[Tony] finishes in the top of her age group
[Tony] most every time. But if I bring this
[Tony] up, I'm not really a good swimmer. That's
[Tony] self deprecating. She's phenomenal, incredibly talented with that.
[Tony] It's fascinating. Honesty, that's one that I talk
[Tony] about when we're looking at people's values that
[Tony] people will often think, okay, I if I
[Tony] don't have a core value of honesty, then
[Tony] something's wrong with me. But there's, of course,
[Tony] there's the positive version, being truthful, having integrity.
[Tony] Those are I'm pro both of those. But
[Tony] there's an extreme version, a pathological version of
[Tony] honesty, which is brutal, bluntness and and no
[Tony] tact, sharing inappropriately personal things, the inability to
[Tony] keep secrets. And I mean, I've I was
[Tony] speaking with someone just a few days ago
[Tony] that they want to share deeply with a
[Tony] spouse, but they cannot trust that that spouse
[Tony] will will keep their secret because if somebody
[Tony] asks them a question about it, they said
[Tony] that my spouse will just they'll say, well,
[Tony] it's just being honest. And so there's the
[Tony] pathological version of honesty, patience. The good version,
[Tony] wait calmly, tolerate delays without getting upset. The
[Tony] pathological version, passivity. Other people taking advantage of
[Tony] you, neglecting your own needs, your own timeliness.
[Tony] So and one more confidence. Positive version, believing
[Tony] in oneself. I think we know the pathological
[Tony] version of confidence which is an interesting way
[Tony] to say it. Arrience, dismissing others' opinions or
[Tony] expertise. Here's where we get into that world
[Tony] of emotionally mature or taking unnecessary risks. So
[Tony] I think that this part and here we
[Tony] are barely into Clio's letter, but I think
[Tony] that's a very significant part of understanding the
[Tony] pathology behind kindness because I think that this
[Tony] helps understand that traits that can be viewed
[Tony] as positive can start to be problematic if
[Tony] they're extreme or inflexible. So let's get back
[Tony] to Cleo's relationship with Ray. She says, I
[Tony] met Ray five years ago, and at first,
[Tony] everything was amazing. He was charming, attentive, and
[Tony] he seemed to need me so much. I
[Tony] felt like I finally found somebody who appreciated
[Tony] my kindness, but over time, things changed. Ray's
[Tony] moods became unpredictable. He'd be loving one minute
[Tony] and cold the next. I found myself constantly
[Tony] trying to figure out what he needed always
[Tony] walking on eggshells. And I think that it's
[Tony] important to note that this part of Cleo
[Tony] story starts to show why the pathologically kind
[Tony] people are often drawn to the narcissist or
[Tony] the emotionally immature partner because the here's the
[Tony] tricky part. The pathologically kind person ends up
[Tony] with that immature partner because it's almost like
[Tony] this puzzle piece that fits into place because
[Tony] the kind person is used to putting others
[Tony] first. And so when she said that he
[Tony] could appreciate how kind she was, so that
[Tony] narcissist or the emotionally immature person loves being
[Tony] put first. So the kind person then feels
[Tony] needed, which there's that concept of the familiar.
[Tony] So she feels like, okay, she knows what
[Tony] to do when she can put somebody else's
[Tony] needs first and then put her needs second.
[Tony] And then she starts to talk about her
[Tony] sensitivity. She said, I've always been sensitive. My
[Tony] friends joke that I can feel somebody's mood
[Tony] from a mile away. But with Ray, it's
[Tony] exhausting. I feel every shift in his emotions,
[Tony] and I'm always trying to make things better.
[Tony] The problem is I'm so focused on his
[Tony] feelings that I've lost touch with my own.
[Tony] And this relates to what we call a
[Tony] highly sensitive person, HSP, and they feel things
[Tony] more deeply than others. It's like their emotional
[Tony] volume is turned up to an eleven all
[Tony] the time. And a lot of pathologically kind
[Tony] people would identify as HSPs, highly sensitive people.
[Tony] And they do say that they pick up
[Tony] on others' feelings easily, which makes them great
[Tony] at being kind, but then it can also
[Tony] feel pretty overwhelming. And next, Cleo talks about
[Tony] her struggle to leave the relationship. She said,
[Tony] lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but it's
[Tony] just so hard. There are moments when Ray
[Tony] is sweet and loving, and I cling to
[Tony] those. They can see he does care. If
[Tony] I just try harder, then maybe things will
[Tony] get better. But then I'll say something cruel
[Tony] or dismissive, and then I am back to
[Tony] square one. And this this does talk or
[Tony] speak to the emotional inconsistency that I think
[Tony] it's part of that concept that we truly
[Tony] don't know that we don't know. And I
[Tony] won't spend too much time on this. I
[Tony] think this is for a future episode. But
[Tony] I have recognized as I have tried to
[Tony] become more emotionally mature myself that so often
[Tony] we're unaware of the things that I would
[Tony] say fall into this bucket of validation. If
[Tony] I come home and I'm feeling overwhelmed and
[Tony] stressed and I really just need everybody to
[Tony] know that I've had a a rough day
[Tony] and you just need to give me some
[Tony] time, that that I really am wanting them
[Tony] to know. And if I want them to
[Tony] know, that that would technically fit in that
[Tony] validation bucket, that I need these people to
[Tony] understand or else then it won't matter or
[Tony] it won't it it's as if it hasn't
[Tony] happened. But if I know that I've had
[Tony] a rough day or I've note that I've
[Tony] been a little bit emotionally overwhelmed myself, then
[Tony] what I can do if I'm really trying
[Tony] to become differentiated is take that in and
[Tony] that there's nothing wrong with me. It's part
[Tony] of being human, and I can acknowledge that
[Tony] I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. I'm feeling those big
[Tony] emotions, and then I can sit with those
[Tony] for a minute. I can get grounded before
[Tony] I head home, maybe even on the ride
[Tony] home, and I can just say, okay. I
[Tony] I am so sorry emotions for shoving you
[Tony] down my entire life. Let's hear it. And
[Tony] if they're saying, k. That was a lot.
[Tony] Or I feel like you were you weren't
[Tony] able to really express the things that you
[Tony] wanted to. Well, then there we go. Thank
[Tony] you emotions for coming for just making yourselves,
[Tony] big and helping me become aware because there's
[Tony] where I can pull out a nugget of
[Tony] self confrontation for growth. Yeah. There's truth in
[Tony] that. Then why was I not expressing myself
[Tony] coming from a place of authenticity if that's
[Tony] one of my core values that I really
[Tony] want to be able to express myself? And
[Tony] if I'm grounded and if I know that
[Tony] I'm coming from a good place, then I
[Tony] can share these things as a therapist in
[Tony] a in a session. If I have somebody
[Tony] that's saying, okay. What do you think that
[Tony] that was rude of me to say? And
[Tony] if I really do feel like it was
[Tony] rude, but if I'm if I didn't say
[Tony] that, if I was saying, well, I can
[Tony] understand you're frustrated. What I just did was
[Tony] I I avoided the question. But it would
[Tony] be okay for me to say, you know,
[Tony] in my experience, yeah, that does come across
[Tony] as a bit rude. Now tell me tell
[Tony] me how you feel about that, and what
[Tony] is your definition of rude? Because if you're
[Tony] asking me that, then I'm I I do
[Tony] feel that way now. I'm still maintaining this
[Tony] connection, this conversation, or this relationship, even if
[Tony] it's a therapeutic relationship with the person that's
[Tony] asking me that. So then I actually get
[Tony] the model that, oh, yeah. I can have
[Tony] these feelings, and I can still actually stay
[Tony] engaged in this conversation, maintain this connection. In
[Tony] that scenario, I can get grounded, and then
[Tony] by the time I make it home, then
[Tony] I'm actually okay, and I can show up
[Tony] and be more emotionally consistent. So and I
[Tony] think that's one of the fascinating things is
[Tony] I'm not trying to say that I it's
[Tony] we can never express our emotions quite the
[Tony] opposite. But do I need to express those
[Tony] emotions to everybody that's walking around me because
[Tony] I need them to tell me that it's
[Tony] okay to have those emotions, or do I
[Tony] know it's okay and so those emotions are
[Tony] me thing and what are they saying to
[Tony] me? What can I learn from these emotions?
[Tony] And if I'm in a relationship where I
[Tony] feel safe and and secure, then I can
[Tony] even start to process these emotions with another
[Tony] human being. And then I can say, hey,
[Tony] let me take you on my train of
[Tony] thought. I got pretty overwhelmed when this happened.
[Tony] I don't know. What are you what are
[Tony] your thoughts? What happens? Do you ever have
[Tony] that experience, and what's that like for you?
[Tony] And now we're having a shared experience, and
[Tony] that's one of the greatest ways that I
[Tony] can really be able to to self confront.
[Tony] But if that isn't available, then it is
[Tony] one hundred percent. It's a me thing. But
[Tony] I think or I worry where Cleo is
[Tony] going here is it's a classic example of
[Tony] you got cognitive dissonance, which I covered on
[Tony] an episode last week, and trauma bonding. Because
[Tony] when you are trying to leave a relationship,
[Tony] the kind person often faces this mental tug
[Tony] of war, and that is cognitive dissonance. They're
[Tony] thinking things like this person hurts me, but
[Tony] I think they must love me deep down.
[Tony] Or things are bad, but if I just
[Tony] try harder, I think it'll get better. And
[Tony] and I wanna cover some of the ground
[Tony] that I covered last week, but I I've
[Tony] been thinking about it even since that episode.
[Tony] When you really look at cognitive dissonance and
[Tony] we throw in this concept of trauma, Bonnie,
[Tony] it it is where your mind and heart
[Tony] are actually what is in a tug of
[Tony] war, and they're pulling in opposite directions. This
[Tony] is the internal conflict that can just suck
[Tony] the life out of you. It becomes draining.
[Tony] It can disorient you, and it is really
[Tony] one of these telltale signs of being caught
[Tony] in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally
[Tony] manipulative or narcissistic. We're burning so many emotional
[Tony] calories on trying to figure out what is
[Tony] going on or what is wrong. And so
[Tony] if you are navigating a relationship that is
[Tony] filled with all kinds of contradictions, it's gonna
[Tony] leave you feeling like, okay, am I tight
[Tony] rope walking? Am I supposed to be juggling
[Tony] here? Am I spinning plates? I'm not even
[Tony] sure because your brain's constantly trying to make
[Tony] sense of all of the inconsistent experiences and
[Tony] emotions, which that is what starts to lead
[Tony] people just emotionally depleted, exhausted, tired. And that
[Tony] ongoing struggle, that starts to chip away at
[Tony] your confidence and your overall well-being, your sense
[Tony] of self. But if we wanna find a
[Tony] silver lining, and there can be one even
[Tony] though there's a lot of confusion, becoming aware
[Tony] of these conflicting thoughts and feelings, maybe guessed
[Tony] it, there's the first step. There's the bottom
[Tony] rung on the ladder to clarity and to
[Tony] healing. Because as you start to recognize all
[Tony] of these inconsistencies, it's like you're slowly adjusting
[Tony] your vision and you are allowing yourself to
[Tony] acknowledge that there are inconsistencies and not trying
[Tony] to immediately cover them up with a, yeah,
[Tony] but, yeah, but they're also kind of nice.
[Tony] And that can start to bring the real
[Tony] true nature of this relationship into focus, but
[Tony] it can start with into focus for you.
[Tony] And the more you have this awareness, this
[Tony] growing awareness, then you might start to spot
[Tony] recurring themes in your relationship that you really
[Tony] weren't aware of before because you were making
[Tony] excuses, because you didn't want to think that
[Tony] this person was actually being pretty mean because
[Tony] we immediately go to, but maybe it's because
[Tony] of this or they also are pretty nice.
[Tony] Because where we're trying to get to here
[Tony] is to start trusting your own judgment, trusting
[Tony] your own gut rather than constantly questioning your
[Tony] perception of things because your emotions are are
[Tony] traveling far faster than your logic. So you're
[Tony] taking in visual cues, you're taking in, auditory
[Tony] cues, and it's going to that part of
[Tony] your brain that is immediately saying, is this
[Tony] safe? Is this okay? And it's even trying
[Tony] to scan for context like what's going on
[Tony] here? And it is so important to understand
[Tony] that it is okay to admit that that
[Tony] a relationship is not living up to your
[Tony] hopes and your expectations. Now that first admission
[Tony] might need to just be internal because if
[Tony] this is where if I immediately explode and
[Tony] say this is not working and I'm in
[Tony] an emotionally immature relationship, then I just handed
[Tony] that person fuel to say, yeah, you bet
[Tony] it's not working and I'm tired of the
[Tony] way that you're handling things. Like, wait, what?
[Tony] I'm the one that just brought this up.
[Tony] But having these mixed emotions when you're dealing
[Tony] with somebody who's emotionally immature, it's a natural
[Tony] response. And when you acknowledge that that is
[Tony] a thing, that is how you're feeling, actually,
[Tony] it's more of a sign of emotional maturity,
[Tony] not some flaw in the relationship. Because if
[Tony] you find yourself continually just grappling with all
[Tony] kinds of conflicting behaviors, conflicting emotions in your
[Tony] relationship, then I think it's safe to say
[Tony] it would be time to take a step
[Tony] back. Maybe you need to pause and you
[Tony] can even reassess. And I'll continue to reiterate
[Tony] in in this podcast today that you can
[Tony] do that and start from a place internally
[Tony] inside your head. Because too often we just
[Tony] wanna blurt things out. And then if we
[Tony] are in an unhealthy relationship, then that just
[Tony] gives that person more fuel to then turn
[Tony] it back around on us. I wanna encourage
[Tony] you to get guidance from a therapist, a
[Tony] mental health professional who knows these complex emotional
[Tony] waters of immaturity because you are entitled to
[Tony] a relationship. And, yes, I use that word
[Tony] entitled. This in this scenario, we're not talking
[Tony] about the young kids these days and their
[Tony] sense of entitlement. Now I I can tell
[Tony] you to get off my lawn or my
[Tony] porch or whatever the old people like myself
[Tony] say. But I think that in this scenario,
[Tony] you are entitled to a relationship that brings
[Tony] you emotional stability. It brings you contentment and
[Tony] joy, and you can process emotion in concert
[Tony] with another human, not a continual cloud of
[Tony] uncertainty and self doubt because we wanna get
[Tony] back to that place where we listen to
[Tony] that inner voice. We practice self compassion, and
[Tony] and it will start to to come in
[Tony] small increments. And it is absolutely fine to
[Tony] prioritize your emotional health, your well-being, and to
[Tony] seek out relationships that that nurture and support
[Tony] you. Because there's a real mental struggle with
[Tony] the whole up and down of a relationship
[Tony] because that is what creates this trauma bond,
[Tony] this intermittent reinforcement that the same person that
[Tony] can provide you with the punishment is also
[Tony] the one that has the key to the
[Tony] reward. It is this emotional roller coaster that
[Tony] is hard to get off, and some people,
[Tony] I think, quite frankly, become somewhat addicted to
[Tony] because then they just feel like if there
[Tony] isn't chaos, if we're not going on the
[Tony] downhill or we're not going on the uphill,
[Tony] then there will be no downhill. But that
[Tony] pathologically kind person, go back to the pathology
[Tony] of it, remembers the good times intensely. Remember,
[Tony] because they feel things so deeply that they
[Tony] keep hoping that these good times are gonna
[Tony] come back. But meanwhile, if you're in a
[Tony] relationship with a narcissist or emotionally immature person,
[Tony] they might act nice just often enough to
[Tony] keep the kind person helping, to keep them
[Tony] just going on. Cleo then describes making excuses
[Tony] for Ray's behavior. She said the strangest part
[Tony] is even when Ray hurts me, I find
[Tony] myself making excuses for him. I think he
[Tony] must be in pain to act this way.
[Tony] Or if I love him enough, he'll heal
[Tony] and things will improve. And I assume that
[Tony] he feels things as deeply as I do
[Tony] and that his love for me must be
[Tony] as intense as mine is for him. But
[Tony] she said more and more, I'm wondering if
[Tony] that's true. And I think that is another
[Tony] common misunderstanding with the person that we were
[Tony] deeming today as pathologically kind because I think
[Tony] this is where it really starts to get
[Tony] confusing because the pathologically kind person being so
[Tony] empathetic assumes their partner feels things as deeply
[Tony] as they do. Maybe not as on the
[Tony] same exact level, but pretty similar. They must
[Tony] think if I love this deeply, they must
[Tony] too. If this is hurting me, I can't
[Tony] even imagine how bad it would hurt them
[Tony] and I don't wanna hurt them. But the
[Tony] narcissist and the emotionally immature person doesn't have
[Tony] that same depth of feeling. And then Cleo
[Tony] mentions in her attempts to communicate with Ray,
[Tony] she said I've tried to talk to Ray
[Tony] about her problems, but then he either dismisses
[Tony] my concerns or he turns them around on
[Tony] me, and he'll say I'm too sensitive or
[Tony] that I'm imagining things. And sometimes it'll be
[Tony] nice for a while after these conversations, and
[Tony] I'll think, okay, we're making progress. But then
[Tony] things go back to the way that they
[Tony] were, and she said, I feel like I'm
[Tony] losing my mind. And a couple of things.
[Tony] One is this is where just because you
[Tony] are no longer having unhealthy conversations does not
[Tony] mean that the relationship is good. The absence
[Tony] of bad in a relationship does not equate
[Tony] to good. It's just that we are finally
[Tony] not, having a negative interaction in the relationship.
[Tony] And I really think this part of Cleo
[Tony] story shows how the lack of a stable
[Tony] sense of self, a core identity starts to
[Tony] impact her relationship. Because always focusing on others
[Tony] can mean that the pathologically kind person doesn't
[Tony] really know themselves very well. It's like they
[Tony] are so busy being what everybody else needs
[Tony] that they forget to figure out who they
[Tony] are. And that isn't healthy because everybody needs
[Tony] a strong sense of self in order to
[Tony] make good decisions, to be able to set
[Tony] boundaries. And then I think that Cleo expresses
[Tony] this her inner conflict. She says, I know
[Tony] logically that this relationship isn't healthy, but every
[Tony] time I think about leaving, I feel guilty.
[Tony] I worry about how Ray will manage without
[Tony] me. I remember the good times, and I
[Tony] wonder if I'm giving up too easily. She
[Tony] said, it's like there's a war in my
[Tony] head between what I know and what I
[Tony] feel. And that internal struggle is a key
[Tony] part of why it is so hard for
[Tony] people like Cleo to leave these kinds of
[Tony] relationships. And just if we go back and
[Tony] and review, this cycle is so tough to
[Tony] break because the kind person is used to
[Tony] putting other people's needs first. They will continually
[Tony] believe in the potential of the relationship even
[Tony] to their own detriment, and they feel responsible
[Tony] for their partner's happiness because that's the role
[Tony] that they played growing up in their childhood.
[Tony] And then the the intense emotions, those are
[Tony] what they know. That's the familiar and that
[Tony] feels like love even when they're actually from
[Tony] stress or from anxiety. So finally then, I
[Tony] think Cleo does acknowledge about how hard that
[Tony] is to put herself first. She said, my
[Tony] friends have been telling me for years that
[Tony] I need to put myself first for once,
[Tony] but she says the idea feels so foreign
[Tony] that it feels wrong. She said, I've spent
[Tony] my whole life taking care of others. So
[Tony] the thought of prioritizing my own needs makes
[Tony] me feel selfish and uncomfortable. And and this
[Tony] is a crucial point for the the pathologically
[Tony] kind person because breaking free means that the
[Tony] pathologically kind person has to do something that's
[Tony] gonna feel wrong to them, put themselves first.
[Tony] And it's like they are learning how to
[Tony] write with a I'm left handed, trying to
[Tony] write with my right hand. I mean, it
[Tony] feels very odd and very uncomfortable at first,
[Tony] but I've been told if I continue to
[Tony] do it, someday it would could actually feel
[Tony] somewhat normal. But understanding all of this, that's
[Tony] the first step in breaking this cycle, and
[Tony] it helps that pathologically kind person see that
[Tony] always being kind isn't always being kind to
[Tony] themselves or even to people in their family.
[Tony] And learning to balance that kindness to others
[Tony] with kindness to yourself, that that starts to
[Tony] become this key to a healthier relationship. Because
[Tony] I think that her story, why I really
[Tony] appreciated this so much is it is such
[Tony] a good example of how complex and challenging
[Tony] things like her relationship with Ray are. Because
[Tony] it's not just as simple as telling somebody
[Tony] to just leave. Just leave a bad relationship
[Tony] because there are deep rooted psychological factors that
[Tony] are at play here. So if there's anybody
[Tony] that's listening who relates to Clio story, remember
[Tony] that recognizing the patterns is the first step
[Tony] toward change. If if you are feeling something
[Tony] very familiar today with that story, then just
[Tony] sit with that a little bit. Take it
[Tony] in. There's nothing wrong with you. You're just
[Tony] starting to process some data. And know that
[Tony] the last thing I'm saying is that you
[Tony] need to knock it off being kind. It's
[Tony] okay to be kind, but it's crucial to
[Tony] extend that kindness to yourself. So seeking professional
[Tony] help, talking to a therapist, a coach, that
[Tony] can be invaluable and starting to learn how
[Tony] to navigate these complex emotional landscapes that are
[Tony] known as relationships and build healthier relationships, both
[Tony] not just with other people, but with yourself.
[Tony] So let's wrap things up here today because
[Tony] I think that her story, it just shows
[Tony] the complex the complex what interplay between being
[Tony] pathologically kind, being highly sensitive, and then feeling
[Tony] somewhat stuck or trapped in a relationship with
[Tony] somebody who is emotionally immature or even on
[Tony] the spectrum of narcissism. It is a pattern
[Tony] that a lot of people find themselves in,
[Tony] and they don't realize how they even got
[Tony] there. They're just there. But that journey from
[Tony] recognizing the dynamic to then breaking free, it's
[Tony] it's a path. It's challenging. But it's also
[Tony] this path of self discovery. It's a path
[Tony] to a healthier relationship. But remember that if
[Tony] you can relate to Clio's experience, you're not
[Tony] alone, and there's absolutely hope that things can
[Tony] get better. So I I wanna just give
[Tony] you a couple of takeaways. We'll call them
[Tony] today. First, recognize that again, being kind, admirable,
[Tony] but not at the expense of your own
[Tony] well-being. I would also say, understand that your
[Tony] empathy and your sensitivity also are strengths, but
[Tony] can they be balanced with strong boundaries? And
[Tony] I know that can be a challenge. And
[Tony] remembering that a boundary is not an ultimatum.
[Tony] It's not a you need to do this.
[Tony] It's a if you do this, then this
[Tony] is what I'll do for myself. And then
[Tony] I'd say finally, remember that love should not
[Tony] feel like a constant struggle or an emotional
[Tony] roller coaster. So how do you implement this?
[Tony] What do you do? Here we go. Self
[Tony] care. Self care is not selfish. Small acts
[Tony] of self care daily, even if it feels
[Tony] uncomfortable. It can be as simple as saying
[Tony] no to a request that doesn't serve you.
[Tony] I really am on a big journaling kick
[Tony] right now, journaling about your feelings, your experiences,
[Tony] and your relationships because that will help you
[Tony] start to identify patterns rather than just kicking
[Tony] things around in your head. And then you
[Tony] will start to recognize things that you're writing
[Tony] down and and maybe it will help you
[Tony] start to trust your own perception. And finally,
[Tony] I would really recommend that if you if
[Tony] this resonated today, reach out to a therapist
[Tony] or a counselor, but one who specializes in
[Tony] things like codependency or narcissistic abuse recovery because
[Tony] they will be able to really recognize all
[Tony] these variables that are at play and and
[Tony] give you a little bit of personalized guidance
[Tony] and help you navigate these big emotions, these
[Tony] big relationship dynamics. But also know change does
[Tony] take time. Every small step, I'm trying to
[Tony] say this in a, oh my gosh, every
[Tony] small step, you better start making all the
[Tony] small steps now. Every small step towards self
[Tony] awareness, every small step towards self respect is
[Tony] an absolute victory. Now, if you have been
[Tony] listening and you have realized that you might
[Tony] be the emotionally immature person in the relationship,
[Tony] I want you to know this is a
[Tony] a big moment, a moment of self awareness,
[Tony] and it is incredibly valuable, but it is
[Tony] not easy to look at ourselves honestly and
[Tony] recognize behaviors that might be hurting those that
[Tony] we love. But I promise that by doing
[Tony] so, you've taken a big step. And it's
[Tony] often the hardest step toward a positive change
[Tony] because remember, emotional immaturity is not a lifetime
[Tony] sentence as much as people think it is
[Tony] when they hear about that. It's a starting
[Tony] point for growth. We're all emotionally immature until
[Tony] we're not. So your willingness to acknowledge the
[Tony] patterns that you might be engaging in, that's
[Tony] that shows courage, that shows the capacity for
[Tony] self reflection, and that is gonna serve you
[Tony] incredibly well on your own journey of development.
[Tony] It it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay
[Tony] to feel even feeling guilty. I don't wanna
[Tony] go into shame, but just don't let those
[Tony] feelings stop you. They aren't there as a
[Tony] damn, those are feelings. Start to let them
[Tony] in. Use those feelings as motivation to learn,
[Tony] to grow, to become, the partner that you
[Tony] maybe have always wanted to be. And I
[Tony] would also say to you, work with a
[Tony] therapist who can guide you through the process
[Tony] of emotional growth, emotional intelligence, emotional IQ, you
[Tony] name it, and you can start to work
[Tony] on being empathetic, practice active listening, learn to
[Tony] regulate your emotions, be patient with yourself because
[Tony] as I think the theme today has also
[Tony] been change takes time, but every single little
[Tony] bit helps. And if you commit to this
[Tony] path of self improvement, then you're not only
[Tony] working toward a healthier relationship, but also it
[Tony] is a more fulfilling life. I promise you
[Tony] when you can sit with your own discomfort,
[Tony] do a little self confrontation, and show up
[Tony] different and emotionally consistent, turns out you're a
[Tony] pretty fun hang. And that is a strength.
[Tony] It is not a weakness. And, man, while
[Tony] I'm ending with a bunch of cliches, it
[Tony] is never too late to truly start being
[Tony] the best version of yourself. So thank you
[Tony] so much for joining me today. I would
[Tony] love to hear your stories. I would love
[Tony] to hear your examples, your growth, even if
[Tony] there are things that you are starting to
[Tony] wake up to and recognize in yourself or
[Tony] in your relationship. Reach out, send those to
[Tony] contacttonioverbay dot com. Please sign up for my
[Tony] newsletter. Subscribe to all the things, and I
[Tony] will see you next time on the podcast.
[Aurora] Compressed emotions flying past our heads and out
[Aurora] the other end. The pressures of the daily