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[Tony]
Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode four hundred and

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[Tony]
twenty seven of the virtual couch. I am

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[Tony]
your host, Tony Overbey. I'm a licensed marriage

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[Tony]
and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, and

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[Tony]
I'm excited to be here today. And we're

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[Tony]
gonna get right to today's topic. Of course,

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[Tony]
I would love for you to sign up

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[Tony]
for my newsletter. Go to tony overbay dot

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[Tony]
com or follow me on social media, Instagram

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[Tony]
at virtual dot couch, TikTok at virtual couch,

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[Tony]
Facebook. I think that's Tonyoverbay, licensed marriage and

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[Tony]
family therapist. All those wonderful things. And if

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[Tony]
you like the podcast, if you ever get

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[Tony]
the chance, please review or rate, subscribe. YouTube,

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[Tony]
actually go there. And the virtual couch is

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[Tony]
on YouTube. I put most of the videos

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[Tony]
up there, and then there's a lot of

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[Tony]
YouTube shorts that touch on things that aren't

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[Tony]
necessarily things that come from the podcast as

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[Tony]
well. And there's all the promotion. Let's get

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[Tony]
to today because this is one of these

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[Tony]
topics that I just enjoy so much. We're

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[Tony]
gonna talk about relationships, and we're gonna talk

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[Tony]
about people and their different roles in relationships.

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[Tony]
And I think the best way to do

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[Tony]
it is I'm gonna dive into an email.

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[Tony]
The email is from a listener named Cleo,

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[Tony]
and they let me know that that was

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[Tony]
not their real name and their partner is

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[Tony]
not their real name as well. But her

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[Tony]
story, it touches on a lot of concepts

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[Tony]
that I want to go over. I'm gonna

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[Tony]
read the email in chunks and and will

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[Tony]
take a lot of time here to break

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[Tony]
down as much of it as I can.

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[Tony]
So let me start by reading the letter

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[Tony]
and then we're gonna go break it down

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[Tony]
in detail. She says the letter. It is

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[Tony]
an email. I don't even know if they're

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[Tony]
referred to as letters anymore. She sent me

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[Tony]
an email. So Cleo said, dear Tony, I'm

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[Tony]
so grateful for your podcast, all of them.

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[Tony]
I've been listening to your waking up to

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[Tony]
narcissism podcast for over a year, and I

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[Tony]
continue to feel like you must be following

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[Tony]
me and my husband around because of the

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[Tony]
things that you described. They are so much

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[Tony]
like what I am living through. This might

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[Tony]
seem strange, but I recently said a phrase

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[Tony]
that you often say that you don't know

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[Tony]
what you don't know followed by I was

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[Tony]
just being and doing. And my friend started

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[Tony]
laughing and saying, oh, you listen to the

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[Tony]
virtual couch. And she said I was confused,

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[Tony]
but we eventually realized that we both listened

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[Tony]
to you and weren't really aware of the

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[Tony]
other podcast. So I started listening to the

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[Tony]
virtual couch and I love it. But my

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[Tony]
friend is in a bad marriage and she

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[Tony]
had no idea or at least she doesn't

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[Tony]
want to admit that you're waking up to

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[Tony]
narcissism podcast might apply to her marriage. So

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[Tony]
I just wanted to share my story and

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[Tony]
then see if that might be something you

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[Tony]
could cover on the virtual couch because a

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[Tony]
lot of women and I'm sure men are

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[Tony]
in bad relationships, but they are only looking

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[Tony]
at them through the I can fix it

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[Tony]
or the virtual couch lens when I think

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[Tony]
the waking up to narcissism lens might be

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[Tony]
really helpful. So here's my story. I've always

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[Tony]
been the nice girl. Growing up, my mom

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[Tony]
was always on edge and I learned early

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[Tony]
on if I was perfect and kind, I

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[Tony]
could keep the peace. I became the family

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[Tony]
peacemaker, always smoothing things over and making sure

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[Tony]
that everybody else was okay. I thought this

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[Tony]
was just who I was, but now I'm

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[Tony]
realizing it might be why I'm struggling so

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[Tony]
much in my marriage. I met Ray five

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[Tony]
years ago, and at first, everything was amazing.

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[Tony]
He was charming and attentive. He seemed to

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[Tony]
need me so much. I felt like I'd

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[Tony]
finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness. But

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[Tony]
over time, things changed. Ray's moods became unpredictable.

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[Tony]
He'd be loving one minute and cold the

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[Tony]
next, and I found myself constantly trying to

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[Tony]
figure out what he needed, and I felt

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[Tony]
like I was always walking on eggshells. I've

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[Tony]
always been sensitive. My friends joke that I

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[Tony]
can feel somebody's mood from a mile away,

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[Tony]
but with Ray, it's kind of exhausting. I

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[Tony]
feel every shift in his emotions, and I'm

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[Tony]
always trying to make things better. The problem

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[Tony]
is I'm so focused on his feelings that

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[Tony]
I do realize I've lost touch with my

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[Tony]
own. Lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but

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[Tony]
it's so hard. There are moments when Ray

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[Tony]
is sweet and loving, and I cling to

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[Tony]
those thinking, see, he does care. So I

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[Tony]
just try harder, maybe things will get better.

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[Tony]
But then he'll say something cruel or dismissive

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[Tony]
and I'm right back to square one. The

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[Tony]
strangest part is even when Ray hurts me,

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[Tony]
I find myself making excuses for him. I

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[Tony]
think he must just be in pain to

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[Tony]
act this way. Or if I love him

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[Tony]
enough, he'll heal and things will improve. And

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[Tony]
I assume he feels things as deeply as

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[Tony]
I do, that his love for me must

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[Tony]
be just as intense as mine is for

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[Tony]
him. But more and more, I'm wondering if

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[Tony]
that's true. I've tried to talk to Ray

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[Tony]
about our problems, but either dismisses my concerns

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[Tony]
or turns them around on me. He'll say

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[Tony]
I'm too sensitive or that I'm imagining things.

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[Tony]
Sometimes it'll be nice for a while after

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[Tony]
these conversations and I'll think, hey, we're making

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[Tony]
progress. But then things go back to the

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[Tony]
way they were and I feel like I'm

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[Tony]
losing my mind. I know logically that this

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[Tony]
relationship isn't healthy, but every time I think

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[Tony]
about leaving, I feel guilty and I worry

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[Tony]
about how Ray will manage without me. I

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[Tony]
remember the good times, and I wonder if

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[Tony]
I'm giving up too easily. It's like there's

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[Tony]
a war in my head between what I

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[Tony]
know and what I feel. I have several

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[Tony]
friends who've been telling me for years that

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[Tony]
I need to put myself first for once,

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[Tony]
but the idea just feels so foreign, almost

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[Tony]
wrong. I've spent my whole life taking care

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[Tony]
of others, and the thought of prioritizing my

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[Tony]
own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable.

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[Tony]
And I'm starting to realize that always being

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[Tony]
kind isn't always being kind to myself, but

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[Tony]
breaking free from this pattern feels impossible. How

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[Tony]
do I start putting myself first when I've

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[Tony]
never done it before? How do I know

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[Tony]
if what I'm feeling is love or if

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[Tony]
I'm just in a trauma bond? I'm hoping

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[Tony]
that by sharing my story, maybe you can

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[Tony]
help others who might be in similar situations.

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[Tony]
Maybe there are other nice people out there

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[Tony]
who don't realize that they're stuck in unhealthy

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[Tony]
patterns. Thanks for all you do. Your podcast

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[Tony]
has been a lifeline. Sincerely, Cleo. That covers

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[Tony]
so many things that I think maybe you

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[Tony]
can see now why I thought that this

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[Tony]
would be it would be the perfect muse

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[Tony]
to talk about. So I wanna break this

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[Tony]
down almost line by line and pull out

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[Tony]
the pieces that I think will help people.

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[Tony]
And I like how she said there's the

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[Tony]
virtual couch lens, which I think really is

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[Tony]
learning about four pillars of a connected conversation.

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[Tony]
Lots of different psychology topics. Do I have

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[Tony]
ADHD? Am I seeking validation? And then over

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[Tony]
on the waking up to narcissism podcast, and

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[Tony]
I realized that there are people that listen

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[Tony]
to the virtual couch that have never ventured

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[Tony]
over into that world because of the very

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[Tony]
word itself, narcissism. But I can't say enough

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[Tony]
that what we're doing on the waking up

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[Tony]
to narcissism side is taking that word because

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[Tony]
it's used a lot. And one of the

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[Tony]
things I did early on in that podcast

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[Tony]
was acknowledge that narcissistic personality disorder is maybe

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[Tony]
three to five percent of the population, but

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[Tony]
it's thrown around as if it were seventy

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[Tony]
or eighty percent. Everybody's ex is a narcissist.

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[Tony]
Everybody's boss is a narcissist. Everybody's spouse at

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[Tony]
times is narcissistic. But what I defined early

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[Tony]
was we're actually all just emotionally immature, and

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[Tony]
that's a pretty normal part of being a

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[Tony]
human being because that does fit into the

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[Tony]
we don't know what we don't know. And

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[Tony]
it takes a lot of work and effort

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[Tony]
to to really take in new data and

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[Tony]
information. We may say that we like to,

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[Tony]
and we do, but think about that. It's

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[Tony]
a lot easier to take it in when

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[Tony]
it's pretty comfortable. And the growth actually comes

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[Tony]
through the discomfort. One of the key points

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[Tony]
about differentiation which is this need that we

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[Tony]
have to maintain connections with others while holding

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[Tony]
on to our own sense of self. And

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[Tony]
if we don't even really know who we

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[Tony]
are, as cliche as that sounds, then we're

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[Tony]
continually showing up in an emotionally inconsistent way.

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[Tony]
And when that's happening on both sides of

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[Tony]
the relationship, then you can just see that

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[Tony]
over time, it starts to feel like there

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[Tony]
isn't much of anything that we can talk

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[Tony]
about that isn't just easy to talk about.

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[Tony]
So her story touches on a lot of

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[Tony]
different concepts that that I think will help

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[Tony]
you if you're looking at things through whether

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[Tony]
it is the virtual couch lens. Really, what

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[Tony]
can I do to fix this or even

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[Tony]
maybe the waking up to narcissism lens where

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[Tony]
it's, okay, we're both emotionally immature? I can

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[Tony]
look at how I'm showing up, but I

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[Tony]
can acknowledge that a lot of the times

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[Tony]
when I'm trying to show up, my spouse

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[Tony]
is taking the information that I'm putting out

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[Tony]
there and then turn it against me and

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[Tony]
making me feel at times like I am

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[Tony]
crazy. Cleo starts by describing her childhood. She

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[Tony]
said, I've always been a nice girl. Growing

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[Tony]
up, my mom was always on edge, and

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[Tony]
I learned early on that if I was

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[Tony]
perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.

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[Tony]
Now I have to jump in with humor

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[Tony]
right away is I love when somebody says

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[Tony]
that they are a fan or they listen

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[Tony]
a lot and they say a lot of

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[Tony]
the things that I do find myself saying.

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[Tony]
But it is interesting because I can't help

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[Tony]
when I hear when she said I've always

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[Tony]
been a nice girl and my mom was

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[Tony]
always on edge that I go back to

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[Tony]
that all or nothing black or white thinking.

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[Tony]
And when I'm doing couples therapy, I do

225
00:08:24,405 --> 00:08:27,445
[Tony]
bring not even gentle, pretty aggressive awareness when

226
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[Tony]
somebody is saying he always or she always

227
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[Tony]
or she never because you watch as a

228
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[Tony]
couples therapist when as soon as the other

229
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[Tony]
person says she was always this way, that

230
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[Tony]
the other person is immediately, you can almost

231
00:08:38,180 --> 00:08:39,460
[Tony]
see them tune out a little bit because

232
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[Tony]
in their mind, they're thinking, okay, I can

233
00:08:41,540 --> 00:08:43,620
[Tony]
think of times when I wasn't. So even

234
00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:46,660
[Tony]
just the the semantics can become important at

235
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[Tony]
times where, you know, I feel like often

236
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[Tony]
this is the case because often, okay, I'm

237
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[Tony]
I'm a little more interested. Or if somebody

238
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[Tony]
says it's been three months since he told

239
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[Tony]
me that he loves me, and if the

240
00:08:57,095 --> 00:08:59,255
[Tony]
guy is thinking, that's not true. It's actually

241
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[Tony]
only been two and a half, which is

242
00:09:00,695 --> 00:09:02,455
[Tony]
not the point. So I just think that

243
00:09:02,455 --> 00:09:04,650
[Tony]
that one's interesting. But she says, I could

244
00:09:04,810 --> 00:09:06,090
[Tony]
if I could keep the peace, I was

245
00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:07,610
[Tony]
perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.

246
00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:10,410
[Tony]
I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things

247
00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:13,130
[Tony]
over and making sure everybody was okay. I

248
00:09:13,130 --> 00:09:14,650
[Tony]
thought this was just who I was, but

249
00:09:14,650 --> 00:09:16,330
[Tony]
now I'm realizing it might be why I'm

250
00:09:16,330 --> 00:09:18,565
[Tony]
struggling so much in my marriage. And it

251
00:09:18,565 --> 00:09:21,285
[Tony]
is fascinating when you look at that her

252
00:09:21,285 --> 00:09:23,445
[Tony]
view of self is that this is my

253
00:09:23,445 --> 00:09:26,005
[Tony]
job to to take care of everybody. And

254
00:09:26,005 --> 00:09:28,884
[Tony]
I think so many people, especially, I and

255
00:09:28,884 --> 00:09:30,404
[Tony]
I know having grown up with a stay

256
00:09:30,404 --> 00:09:31,685
[Tony]
at home mom, my wife's a stay at

257
00:09:31,685 --> 00:09:34,010
[Tony]
home mom, and that work is incredible and

258
00:09:34,010 --> 00:09:35,850
[Tony]
amazing. And I think and I'm not just

259
00:09:35,850 --> 00:09:37,770
[Tony]
saying this, but it doesn't get its its

260
00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:40,090
[Tony]
due. And I because I think it it's

261
00:09:40,090 --> 00:09:41,770
[Tony]
just you're there all the time. It's like

262
00:09:41,770 --> 00:09:43,770
[Tony]
you're at work constantly, and I know that

263
00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:45,610
[Tony]
then a dad can come in, and now

264
00:09:45,610 --> 00:09:47,055
[Tony]
I get him for a few hours and,

265
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[Tony]
maybe on a weekend. And I'm saying that

266
00:09:49,375 --> 00:09:52,175
[Tony]
as if I'm divorced, I'm not. But if

267
00:09:52,175 --> 00:09:53,695
[Tony]
my wife needs to run some errands, I

268
00:09:53,695 --> 00:09:55,295
[Tony]
remember growing up, we had four kids. They

269
00:09:55,295 --> 00:09:56,975
[Tony]
were all two years apart. And then I

270
00:09:56,975 --> 00:09:58,415
[Tony]
would get there and basically just get to

271
00:09:58,415 --> 00:10:00,015
[Tony]
shake them up and watch them run around.

272
00:10:00,015 --> 00:10:02,110
[Tony]
And then when she comes home, help, unload

273
00:10:02,110 --> 00:10:03,630
[Tony]
groceries or do whatever that looks like and

274
00:10:03,630 --> 00:10:06,029
[Tony]
say, they were easy. And the immature version

275
00:10:06,029 --> 00:10:07,550
[Tony]
of me thinks, man, that's kinda fun. I

276
00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:08,910
[Tony]
wish I could do that all day. That's

277
00:10:08,910 --> 00:10:11,310
[Tony]
what the immature person will say. But so

278
00:10:11,310 --> 00:10:13,149
[Tony]
when somebody just feels like that is their

279
00:10:13,149 --> 00:10:15,315
[Tony]
whole sense of self or purpose is to

280
00:10:15,315 --> 00:10:18,835
[Tony]
then just give up themselves for these other

281
00:10:18,835 --> 00:10:21,555
[Tony]
little people. It's so admirable. It's so incredible.

282
00:10:21,555 --> 00:10:23,315
[Tony]
It's there's the part where it is so

283
00:10:23,315 --> 00:10:26,675
[Tony]
necessary, but then I think at the expense

284
00:10:26,675 --> 00:10:28,790
[Tony]
at times of truly still holding on to

285
00:10:28,790 --> 00:10:30,230
[Tony]
your own sense of self. And I don't

286
00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:32,310
[Tony]
even know if that can be changed or

287
00:10:32,310 --> 00:10:34,470
[Tony]
explained early on because it's part of that

288
00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:35,670
[Tony]
we don't know what we don't know when

289
00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:39,370
[Tony]
we're young and having kids. But with Cleo's

290
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:41,590
[Tony]
situation, I think that this is where we

291
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:44,065
[Tony]
get the origin story of what I like

292
00:10:44,065 --> 00:10:47,024
[Tony]
to call the pathologically kind person. And I'm

293
00:10:47,024 --> 00:10:48,545
[Tony]
gonna spend a little time with this because

294
00:10:48,545 --> 00:10:50,225
[Tony]
I I use this phrase often over in

295
00:10:50,225 --> 00:10:52,225
[Tony]
the waking up the narcissism world where there's

296
00:10:52,225 --> 00:10:54,704
[Tony]
often this pathologically kind person who is finding

297
00:10:54,704 --> 00:10:56,545
[Tony]
themselves in a relationship with a more emotionally

298
00:10:56,545 --> 00:10:58,899
[Tony]
immature person. And as a friend of the

299
00:10:58,899 --> 00:11:01,220
[Tony]
show and and author of human magnet syndrome,

300
00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:04,180
[Tony]
Ross Rosenberg says in his book, that forms

301
00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:06,180
[Tony]
a human magnet and this concept of human

302
00:11:06,180 --> 00:11:09,160
[Tony]
magnet syndrome is very real where the relationship

303
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:12,485
[Tony]
almost becomes breakup resistant. Let's talk about pathological

304
00:11:12,545 --> 00:11:15,445
[Tony]
kindness. Imagine somebody who's always putting others first

305
00:11:15,505 --> 00:11:17,665
[Tony]
even to their own detriment, even when it

306
00:11:17,665 --> 00:11:20,325
[Tony]
hurts them. That is the pathologically kind person.

307
00:11:20,625 --> 00:11:22,705
[Tony]
It's as if they are the superhero of

308
00:11:22,705 --> 00:11:25,185
[Tony]
niceness, but I don't necessarily think it's so

309
00:11:25,185 --> 00:11:28,470
[Tony]
super for them because people that play that

310
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:31,510
[Tony]
role, the pathologically kind person, they've often grown

311
00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:33,990
[Tony]
up in families where they had to be

312
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:35,910
[Tony]
the peacekeeper or where they had to even

313
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:37,910
[Tony]
be perfect to keep the peace. Maybe they

314
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:39,590
[Tony]
had a parent who was always upset and

315
00:11:39,590 --> 00:11:41,655
[Tony]
they learned, k. If I can be super

316
00:11:41,655 --> 00:11:43,335
[Tony]
nice, that was the way I can calm

317
00:11:43,335 --> 00:11:45,175
[Tony]
things down. Or if I can be a

318
00:11:45,175 --> 00:11:47,255
[Tony]
perfectionist, if I can never get anything wrong,

319
00:11:47,255 --> 00:11:49,255
[Tony]
then maybe maybe I can diffuse some of

320
00:11:49,255 --> 00:11:51,415
[Tony]
this anger or frustration of my parents, and

321
00:11:51,415 --> 00:11:53,335
[Tony]
they will find me and I will bring

322
00:11:53,335 --> 00:11:56,150
[Tony]
them joy. It's like they become the family's

323
00:11:56,150 --> 00:12:00,070
[Tony]
emotional little firefighter. And then I don't think

324
00:12:00,070 --> 00:12:02,070
[Tony]
I've spent any time in the past talking

325
00:12:02,070 --> 00:12:04,950
[Tony]
about how significant it is to add the

326
00:12:04,950 --> 00:12:07,904
[Tony]
word pathology to something like kindness. Because if

327
00:12:07,904 --> 00:12:09,985
[Tony]
you're aware or familiar, the word pathology comes

328
00:12:09,985 --> 00:12:13,925
[Tony]
from this Greek word pathos, which means suffering

329
00:12:14,225 --> 00:12:17,585
[Tony]
or disease. And then you got logos and

330
00:12:17,585 --> 00:12:19,185
[Tony]
that means the study of. If you look

331
00:12:19,185 --> 00:12:21,665
[Tony]
at this from a medical context, pathology often

332
00:12:21,665 --> 00:12:23,560
[Tony]
refers to the study of disease and then

333
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:25,000
[Tony]
how they impact you, how they affect your

334
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,800
[Tony]
body. But in psychology, I think also in

335
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,480
[Tony]
in just the the behavioral sciences, pathology is

336
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,199
[Tony]
often used to describe patterns of behavior or

337
00:12:34,199 --> 00:12:37,115
[Tony]
even patterns of thoughts or emotions that are

338
00:12:37,195 --> 00:12:38,635
[Tony]
they can be a little bit outside the

339
00:12:38,635 --> 00:12:40,315
[Tony]
norm or they can even be maladaptive, they

340
00:12:40,315 --> 00:12:42,735
[Tony]
can be harmful, and they can cause distress.

341
00:12:42,795 --> 00:12:45,055
[Tony]
So now when you put those together, pathological

342
00:12:45,355 --> 00:12:47,835
[Tony]
to describe a behavior or any trait, what

343
00:12:47,835 --> 00:12:49,755
[Tony]
we're really saying is that that trait, that

344
00:12:49,755 --> 00:12:53,300
[Tony]
behavior is persistent and it's habitual. So it's

345
00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:56,980
[Tony]
pretty consistent, but it also implies that it's

346
00:12:56,980 --> 00:12:58,500
[Tony]
extreme or it might be a little bit

347
00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:01,620
[Tony]
exaggerated beyond what is considered typical or normal,

348
00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:03,620
[Tony]
which I know sometimes I play the normal

349
00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:04,899
[Tony]
police, sometimes I think who am I to

350
00:13:04,899 --> 00:13:07,165
[Tony]
play the normal police. But the key is

351
00:13:07,165 --> 00:13:09,084
[Tony]
that it can become harmful or detrimental to

352
00:13:09,084 --> 00:13:11,985
[Tony]
the person. So here's this trait that is

353
00:13:12,445 --> 00:13:15,485
[Tony]
a wonderful trait, but then it can be

354
00:13:15,485 --> 00:13:18,204
[Tony]
to excess. And then when somebody has this

355
00:13:18,204 --> 00:13:20,605
[Tony]
pathology, there's a little bit of resistance to

356
00:13:20,605 --> 00:13:23,930
[Tony]
change even if it's causing them problems. So

357
00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:25,290
[Tony]
if you look at the concept of somebody

358
00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:27,450
[Tony]
that's pathologically kind, if we combine those words

359
00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:29,950
[Tony]
together, now we're describing a pattern of kindness

360
00:13:30,170 --> 00:13:32,830
[Tony]
that has has been taken to an extreme

361
00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:36,170
[Tony]
and it's persistent and it's actually potentially can

362
00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:38,705
[Tony]
be harmful. When I'm working with somebody that

363
00:13:38,765 --> 00:13:41,725
[Tony]
identifies as pathologically kind, honestly, the last thing

364
00:13:41,725 --> 00:13:42,845
[Tony]
I'm trying to say is that we need

365
00:13:42,845 --> 00:13:44,945
[Tony]
to knock the kindness out of them, but

366
00:13:45,005 --> 00:13:48,845
[Tony]
has that trait been overused or overextended to

367
00:13:48,845 --> 00:13:51,550
[Tony]
that person's detriment? If you really look at

368
00:13:51,550 --> 00:13:55,070
[Tony]
why this concept then of understanding pathology around

369
00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:56,510
[Tony]
something like kindness, and we'll talk about it

370
00:13:56,510 --> 00:13:58,590
[Tony]
with other things too, it's because there's a

371
00:13:58,590 --> 00:13:59,950
[Tony]
few points that I think need to be

372
00:13:59,950 --> 00:14:02,590
[Tony]
brought up. One is excessiveness because it indicates

373
00:14:02,590 --> 00:14:05,325
[Tony]
that this kindness is often taken to an

374
00:14:05,325 --> 00:14:07,725
[Tony]
almost unhealthy extreme where it can zap your

375
00:14:07,725 --> 00:14:10,285
[Tony]
own sense of self. And while kindness is

376
00:14:10,285 --> 00:14:13,085
[Tony]
a positive trait, when it becomes pathological, it's

377
00:14:13,085 --> 00:14:15,565
[Tony]
not balanced or it can start to become

378
00:14:15,565 --> 00:14:19,200
[Tony]
unhealthy. And then there's also feeling of self

379
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,500
[Tony]
neglect because a pathologically kind person is prioritizing

380
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,720
[Tony]
others' needs to the point of neglecting their

381
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,320
[Tony]
own well-being. And I know that can be

382
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,160
[Tony]
a balancing act because when you have little

383
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,360
[Tony]
people running around that you you can't quite

384
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,120
[Tony]
say, okay, I need to take some me

385
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,295
[Tony]
time. You guys just chill out. If you're

386
00:14:35,295 --> 00:14:37,214
[Tony]
two or three year old, their version of

387
00:14:37,214 --> 00:14:40,095
[Tony]
chilling out is, I don't know, playing in

388
00:14:40,095 --> 00:14:42,095
[Tony]
the stove or running out into traffic. I

389
00:14:42,095 --> 00:14:44,415
[Tony]
understand that this isn't an all or nothing

390
00:14:44,415 --> 00:14:48,750
[Tony]
thinking. And then typically, the person that is

391
00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:51,390
[Tony]
would be viewed as pathologically kind, they do

392
00:14:51,390 --> 00:14:53,150
[Tony]
have a lack of boundaries. And I think

393
00:14:53,150 --> 00:14:55,710
[Tony]
this is because they didn't see those models

394
00:14:55,710 --> 00:14:57,870
[Tony]
growing up. They they will struggle to set

395
00:14:57,870 --> 00:14:59,790
[Tony]
and maintain healthy boundaries, and that will often

396
00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:01,904
[Tony]
allow others to take advantage of them. And

397
00:15:01,904 --> 00:15:04,385
[Tony]
over on the waking up the narcissism side,

398
00:15:04,385 --> 00:15:06,385
[Tony]
I talk often about these five rules of

399
00:15:06,385 --> 00:15:08,625
[Tony]
interacting with an emotionally immature person. The first

400
00:15:08,625 --> 00:15:10,305
[Tony]
one is self care. Self care is not

401
00:15:10,305 --> 00:15:12,865
[Tony]
selfish. Raise that emotional baseline. And the second

402
00:15:12,865 --> 00:15:14,644
[Tony]
one is to get your PhD in gaslighting.

403
00:15:14,785 --> 00:15:16,740
[Tony]
Know when somebody is causing you to feel

404
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:18,920
[Tony]
pretty crazy about something you're pretty certain of.

405
00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:20,520
[Tony]
The third one is get out of unproductive

406
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:22,260
[Tony]
conversations. The fourth one is learn to set

407
00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:23,860
[Tony]
healthy boundaries, but that's where I I try

408
00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:26,660
[Tony]
to spend time differentiating what a boundary is

409
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:28,740
[Tony]
versus an ultimatum. Because often we think that

410
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:30,260
[Tony]
we're setting a boundary, but really we're giving

411
00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:32,375
[Tony]
an ultimatum. I need you to stop talking

412
00:15:32,375 --> 00:15:34,055
[Tony]
to me that way. Well, to the emotionally

413
00:15:34,055 --> 00:15:37,254
[Tony]
immature, the little kid or the adult, you

414
00:15:37,254 --> 00:15:39,175
[Tony]
just show them your buttons. This is what's

415
00:15:39,175 --> 00:15:41,274
[Tony]
important to me. So the boundary is actually,

416
00:15:41,334 --> 00:15:43,435
[Tony]
if you talk to me that way, then

417
00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:45,510
[Tony]
here's the consequence. And with an adult, it

418
00:15:45,510 --> 00:15:46,950
[Tony]
might be that I'm I'm gonna leave. But

419
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:48,230
[Tony]
or with a kid, if you talk to

420
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:50,630
[Tony]
me that way, then you are I don't

421
00:15:50,630 --> 00:15:52,950
[Tony]
know. You're not gonna get any dessert. That's

422
00:15:52,950 --> 00:15:54,470
[Tony]
not a not one that really fits, but

423
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:55,670
[Tony]
but I think you see where I'm going

424
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:57,405
[Tony]
there. And the fifth thing is that you'll

425
00:15:57,405 --> 00:15:59,485
[Tony]
never cause that person to have the moment

426
00:15:59,485 --> 00:16:01,745
[Tony]
or the epiphany, which is very significant because

427
00:16:01,885 --> 00:16:03,965
[Tony]
too often that pathologically kind person is in

428
00:16:03,965 --> 00:16:06,045
[Tony]
this position where, no, I will take the

429
00:16:06,045 --> 00:16:07,485
[Tony]
ownership of this. I will fix it. Let

430
00:16:07,485 --> 00:16:08,845
[Tony]
me do the research. Let me go to

431
00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:10,205
[Tony]
the therapist. Let me read the books, and

432
00:16:10,205 --> 00:16:11,959
[Tony]
then I will tell you what what I

433
00:16:11,959 --> 00:16:14,440
[Tony]
think would help. But to the emotionally immature,

434
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,279
[Tony]
they're saying, oh, you are telling me you

435
00:16:16,279 --> 00:16:18,279
[Tony]
think what I'm doing is wrong, and then

436
00:16:18,279 --> 00:16:19,879
[Tony]
that's the fuel they need. So now, oh,

437
00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:20,920
[Tony]
I know what to do with that. Well,

438
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,160
[Tony]
actually, you're wrong and I'm right and I

439
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:24,779
[Tony]
need to go in this one up position

440
00:16:25,045 --> 00:16:27,285
[Tony]
because that's how I feel like I'm alive

441
00:16:27,285 --> 00:16:28,725
[Tony]
or that I matter. And then to the

442
00:16:28,725 --> 00:16:30,805
[Tony]
world of the pathologically kind, there are some

443
00:16:30,805 --> 00:16:33,365
[Tony]
underlying issues here because it does stem from

444
00:16:33,365 --> 00:16:35,845
[Tony]
deep seated issues like lower self esteem or

445
00:16:35,845 --> 00:16:38,300
[Tony]
this fear of abandonment or maybe even some

446
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:40,780
[Tony]
unresolved trauma in childhood or even as an

447
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:42,940
[Tony]
adult. And there's there's a little bit of

448
00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:45,100
[Tony]
a compulsive nature here too because the kindness

449
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,820
[Tony]
becomes almost a compulsive behavior rather than a

450
00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:50,704
[Tony]
balanced expression of care. And this is where

451
00:16:50,704 --> 00:16:53,584
[Tony]
it can almost look a little bit, like

452
00:16:53,584 --> 00:16:56,005
[Tony]
OCD because if you think about what OCD

453
00:16:56,065 --> 00:16:58,865
[Tony]
is when somebody has this obsession, it causes

454
00:16:58,865 --> 00:17:01,264
[Tony]
them to feel uncomfortable. Let's go with the

455
00:17:01,264 --> 00:17:03,209
[Tony]
classic washing of hands. If they're afraid of

456
00:17:03,209 --> 00:17:05,450
[Tony]
getting sick and and germs or the vehicle

457
00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:07,050
[Tony]
and they see germs everywhere and so if

458
00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:08,730
[Tony]
they touch things, they now they think, oh

459
00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:10,250
[Tony]
my gosh, I've got germs on me and

460
00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:11,929
[Tony]
that causes a lot of anxiety, a lot

461
00:17:11,929 --> 00:17:14,090
[Tony]
of discomfort. That becomes the obsession. So the

462
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:16,250
[Tony]
compulsion is to wash hands and that is

463
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:19,835
[Tony]
to alleviate that discomfort. Now, unfortunately, with OCD,

464
00:17:19,835 --> 00:17:21,515
[Tony]
really, it will just come back again and

465
00:17:21,515 --> 00:17:23,835
[Tony]
again. But when you look at kindness almost

466
00:17:23,835 --> 00:17:27,055
[Tony]
as a compulsive behavior, then is the discomfort

467
00:17:27,115 --> 00:17:31,050
[Tony]
there and that someone else is struggling or

468
00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:33,290
[Tony]
someone didn't finish their homework, somebody forgot to

469
00:17:33,290 --> 00:17:35,370
[Tony]
bring their lunch to school, and so then

470
00:17:35,370 --> 00:17:38,410
[Tony]
that causes me to feel anxious or feel

471
00:17:38,410 --> 00:17:40,970
[Tony]
uncomfortable. So what's the compulsive behavior that I

472
00:17:40,970 --> 00:17:42,425
[Tony]
can do to get rid of that? Then

473
00:17:42,425 --> 00:17:43,945
[Tony]
I will I will take care of it.

474
00:17:43,945 --> 00:17:45,544
[Tony]
I will do whatever it takes. I will

475
00:17:45,544 --> 00:17:47,385
[Tony]
be I will be that kind. I will

476
00:17:47,385 --> 00:17:50,025
[Tony]
put my needs and wishes to the side

477
00:17:50,025 --> 00:17:51,304
[Tony]
and I will go take care of this

478
00:17:51,304 --> 00:17:54,025
[Tony]
person. So that compulsive nature is pretty fascinating

479
00:17:54,025 --> 00:17:56,400
[Tony]
with that. And there is a little bit

480
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,380
[Tony]
of enablement here because the pathologically kind person

481
00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:02,000
[Tony]
can inadvertently, I think that's the key word,

482
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,360
[Tony]
enable some negative behavior and, because that kind

483
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,080
[Tony]
person is starting to shield others from the

484
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,945
[Tony]
consequences of their actions. And I am guilty

485
00:18:10,945 --> 00:18:12,304
[Tony]
as all can be on this. This is

486
00:18:12,304 --> 00:18:14,385
[Tony]
not me saying, here's a ton of examples

487
00:18:14,385 --> 00:18:16,304
[Tony]
where I sat with my own discomfort and

488
00:18:16,304 --> 00:18:18,784
[Tony]
let my kids fail. And that's one of

489
00:18:18,784 --> 00:18:20,625
[Tony]
the toughest things, I think. I give this

490
00:18:20,625 --> 00:18:22,705
[Tony]
example of, yeah, if somebody is they forgot

491
00:18:22,705 --> 00:18:25,880
[Tony]
to do a school work project, man, combo

492
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,720
[Tony]
pack of ADHD impulsivity, deadline, the dopamine dump

493
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,480
[Tony]
of a deadline, wanting validation, all of a

494
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,320
[Tony]
sudden, oh, let's go. Ten o'clock at night,

495
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,640
[Tony]
this thing's due at midnight or tomorrow. This

496
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,015
[Tony]
is when I work best. So I will

497
00:18:37,015 --> 00:18:38,855
[Tony]
actually now get validation from my kid. I

498
00:18:38,855 --> 00:18:40,615
[Tony]
will rescue them from a situation. I'll pat

499
00:18:40,615 --> 00:18:42,215
[Tony]
myself on the back and feel like the

500
00:18:42,215 --> 00:18:44,934
[Tony]
world's greatest dad. But then what do they

501
00:18:44,934 --> 00:18:46,934
[Tony]
do? Then did they take that now and

502
00:18:46,934 --> 00:18:48,695
[Tony]
say, gosh, I got to get better at

503
00:18:48,695 --> 00:18:50,535
[Tony]
keeping track of assignments or I need to

504
00:18:50,535 --> 00:18:53,750
[Tony]
really start using a planner now or do

505
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:56,810
[Tony]
they just feel like, okay, that's done and

506
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:59,130
[Tony]
and I'm gonna get a good grade even.

507
00:18:59,670 --> 00:19:01,910
[Tony]
And this will but the pathological kindness also

508
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:03,910
[Tony]
will lead to difficulty in the relationship because

509
00:19:03,910 --> 00:19:06,410
[Tony]
this is this can lead to imbalanced relationships

510
00:19:06,975 --> 00:19:10,735
[Tony]
where that pathologically kind person is constantly giving

511
00:19:10,735 --> 00:19:12,495
[Tony]
without receiving to the point of where then

512
00:19:12,495 --> 00:19:14,895
[Tony]
when they need something, that is not what

513
00:19:14,895 --> 00:19:16,815
[Tony]
the family is used to. So then everyone

514
00:19:16,815 --> 00:19:19,135
[Tony]
else is busy right now, and I hear

515
00:19:19,135 --> 00:19:21,295
[Tony]
that story over and over again in my

516
00:19:21,295 --> 00:19:22,910
[Tony]
office of people that that is all they

517
00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:24,990
[Tony]
do is give to others. So when they

518
00:19:24,990 --> 00:19:27,710
[Tony]
need something, there isn't anybody there that that

519
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:30,590
[Tony]
is willing to give back. And I think

520
00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:32,429
[Tony]
often that's because we find ourselves in these

521
00:19:32,429 --> 00:19:35,355
[Tony]
situations, these systems, family systems, where we fall

522
00:19:35,355 --> 00:19:37,595
[Tony]
into this role and the role often of

523
00:19:37,595 --> 00:19:39,755
[Tony]
a mom, a pathologically kind mom, is that

524
00:19:39,755 --> 00:19:41,435
[Tony]
I'll just I'll just take care of everything.

525
00:19:41,435 --> 00:19:44,795
[Tony]
Or nice guy syndrome dad will where, okay,

526
00:19:44,795 --> 00:19:47,055
[Tony]
I don't like the discomfort of saying no

527
00:19:47,195 --> 00:19:49,810
[Tony]
and people are asking for things constantly, So

528
00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:51,490
[Tony]
I'll just I'll figure it out. I'll work

529
00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:53,970
[Tony]
more. I'll do that and maybe even maybe

530
00:19:53,970 --> 00:19:56,130
[Tony]
they'll appreciate me. I mean, that's the hope

531
00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:57,910
[Tony]
a lot of times that the nice guy

532
00:19:58,130 --> 00:20:00,850
[Tony]
who suffers from nice guy syndrome. And that

533
00:20:00,850 --> 00:20:03,010
[Tony]
all leads to to an internal conflict because

534
00:20:03,010 --> 00:20:05,145
[Tony]
there's this disconnect from the person's excess of

535
00:20:05,145 --> 00:20:08,025
[Tony]
kindness and often their true feelings. Man, I

536
00:20:08,025 --> 00:20:10,425
[Tony]
don't want to work this much, or I

537
00:20:10,425 --> 00:20:12,345
[Tony]
do wish that I could engage in my

538
00:20:12,345 --> 00:20:14,985
[Tony]
own hobbies, but I just feel like this

539
00:20:14,985 --> 00:20:16,985
[Tony]
kindness, it just is there and I can't

540
00:20:16,985 --> 00:20:18,185
[Tony]
get rid of it. And this is what

541
00:20:18,185 --> 00:20:21,580
[Tony]
I do in hopes that people will recognize

542
00:20:21,580 --> 00:20:24,380
[Tony]
or notice or that I will then feel

543
00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:26,460
[Tony]
completely fulfilled from this. And that starts to

544
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:28,460
[Tony]
lead to this internal distress, and we'll talk

545
00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:29,900
[Tony]
about that a little bit more in a

546
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:31,900
[Tony]
second. But I think it's really important to

547
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:35,715
[Tony]
recognize the this pathological kindness lies in understanding

548
00:20:35,775 --> 00:20:38,255
[Tony]
that even positive traits because that is I

549
00:20:38,255 --> 00:20:40,495
[Tony]
cannot stress that enough. Kindness is a positive

550
00:20:40,495 --> 00:20:42,275
[Tony]
trait, but when it's taken to an extreme

551
00:20:42,495 --> 00:20:45,480
[Tony]
that it can start to become problematic And

552
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,520
[Tony]
that's what helps differentiate between healthy kindness and

553
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,080
[Tony]
then a pattern of behavior that's more rooted

554
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,720
[Tony]
in and I wanna say a psychological issue,

555
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,160
[Tony]
but I don't want that to sound like

556
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,760
[Tony]
we're saying that you must now go into

557
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,820
[Tony]
a psychological hospital because you are pathologically kind.

558
00:21:00,195 --> 00:21:01,955
[Tony]
But if you are somebody that identifies with

559
00:21:01,955 --> 00:21:04,115
[Tony]
this, just talking to you, Cleo, and other

560
00:21:04,115 --> 00:21:07,315
[Tony]
people listening, recognize that behavior, being able to

561
00:21:07,315 --> 00:21:09,955
[Tony]
recognize it as, yeah, I think I am

562
00:21:09,955 --> 00:21:11,955
[Tony]
one of the pathologically kind, that is that

563
00:21:11,955 --> 00:21:14,770
[Tony]
is a brilliant beautiful first step. It's crucial

564
00:21:14,770 --> 00:21:17,170
[Tony]
in starting to learn and develop healthier patterns

565
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,010
[Tony]
of interacting with others, and this is where

566
00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:20,530
[Tony]
those concepts of differentiation. I'm gonna have to

567
00:21:20,530 --> 00:21:23,330
[Tony]
deal with some discomfort now, but it's gonna

568
00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:25,810
[Tony]
hopefully validate your experience and help you start

569
00:21:25,810 --> 00:21:28,050
[Tony]
to look at your struggles. Maybe frame your

570
00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:30,825
[Tony]
struggles as a pathologically kind person in a

571
00:21:30,825 --> 00:21:32,985
[Tony]
way that can start to be addressed because

572
00:21:32,985 --> 00:21:34,825
[Tony]
we didn't know. And now you know, it's

573
00:21:34,825 --> 00:21:36,445
[Tony]
something that you can start to sit with.

574
00:21:36,665 --> 00:21:38,265
[Tony]
Because I think that whether you're in a

575
00:21:38,265 --> 00:21:40,345
[Tony]
relationship or especially if you're working with a

576
00:21:40,345 --> 00:21:44,769
[Tony]
therapist, understanding that that pathological kindness can guide

577
00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:47,950
[Tony]
the help you get the interventions that therapists

578
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:50,190
[Tony]
can do to start to work with things

579
00:21:50,190 --> 00:21:53,070
[Tony]
like healthier boundaries, self care, and then looking

580
00:21:53,070 --> 00:21:55,835
[Tony]
for more balance in relationships. It might be

581
00:21:56,054 --> 00:21:57,975
[Tony]
recognizing some of the relationships you're in right

582
00:21:57,975 --> 00:21:59,655
[Tony]
now or more of this give and take

583
00:21:59,655 --> 00:22:03,575
[Tony]
versus the reciprocal relationships. And it helps shift

584
00:22:03,575 --> 00:22:06,135
[Tony]
that narrative of above all, kindness is always

585
00:22:06,135 --> 00:22:08,230
[Tony]
the right thing because look what our brain

586
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:10,070
[Tony]
does immediately goes to, oh, so I'm supposed

587
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:11,590
[Tony]
to be a jerk. Oh, no. That's the

588
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:13,590
[Tony]
all or nothing black or white thinking. But

589
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:16,710
[Tony]
just recognizing that there's, there's balance to be

590
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:19,429
[Tony]
struck there between caring for others and caring

591
00:22:19,429 --> 00:22:21,865
[Tony]
for yourself. I just jotted down several other

592
00:22:21,865 --> 00:22:23,465
[Tony]
things that if you take them to the

593
00:22:23,465 --> 00:22:25,625
[Tony]
extreme, I just wanna show like what each

594
00:22:25,625 --> 00:22:27,225
[Tony]
side of that looks like. So take something

595
00:22:27,225 --> 00:22:29,625
[Tony]
like this is empathy. That's a that is

596
00:22:29,625 --> 00:22:31,545
[Tony]
a hot one. I talk about empathy often.

597
00:22:31,545 --> 00:22:33,145
[Tony]
But the positive version of that is okay.

598
00:22:33,145 --> 00:22:34,825
[Tony]
I am gonna try to understand and really

599
00:22:34,825 --> 00:22:36,900
[Tony]
I want to feel the share these feelings

600
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:39,880
[Tony]
with others. The extreme version of that though,

601
00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:43,160
[Tony]
that maybe the pathological version is emotional exhaustion

602
00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:45,060
[Tony]
because now you're taking on everybody's problems as

603
00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:46,580
[Tony]
your own and you can have a a

604
00:22:46,580 --> 00:22:48,980
[Tony]
real hard time separating your emotion from other

605
00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:51,395
[Tony]
people's. Look at some things like ambition, the

606
00:22:51,395 --> 00:22:54,055
[Tony]
positive version of that, this drive to achieve,

607
00:22:54,515 --> 00:22:56,775
[Tony]
I can achieve goals, I can improve myself.

608
00:22:56,995 --> 00:22:59,815
[Tony]
The extreme version of ambition, maybe the pathological

609
00:22:59,875 --> 00:23:03,090
[Tony]
version, a workaholic and people that are neglecting

610
00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:05,090
[Tony]
personal relationships and and their health, and they

611
00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:07,810
[Tony]
just don't feel satisfied with their achievements. I

612
00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:09,890
[Tony]
I talked to someone recently that they're in

613
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:12,370
[Tony]
a a large position of service in a

614
00:23:12,370 --> 00:23:15,345
[Tony]
land far away, but they were workaholic in

615
00:23:15,345 --> 00:23:17,265
[Tony]
order to become successful enough to put themselves

616
00:23:17,265 --> 00:23:19,185
[Tony]
in a position to go and do this

617
00:23:19,185 --> 00:23:21,665
[Tony]
type of work. But now that they're over

618
00:23:21,665 --> 00:23:24,065
[Tony]
there, the their spouse felt like, okay, this

619
00:23:24,065 --> 00:23:25,505
[Tony]
is a place now where we are in

620
00:23:25,505 --> 00:23:26,705
[Tony]
a position in our life where we can

621
00:23:26,705 --> 00:23:29,200
[Tony]
relax a little bit, but this person's ambition,

622
00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:31,420
[Tony]
I would say is pathological. They cannot turn

623
00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:33,820
[Tony]
it off even when they're in this beautiful

624
00:23:33,820 --> 00:23:36,240
[Tony]
place and they are trying their best to

625
00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:39,280
[Tony]
to enjoy retirement, but that is a pathological

626
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:41,545
[Tony]
version of ambition. Or you look at things

627
00:23:41,545 --> 00:23:43,625
[Tony]
like loyalty, sounds like a great thing. The

628
00:23:43,625 --> 00:23:46,185
[Tony]
positive version, being faithful and supportive to friends,

629
00:23:46,185 --> 00:23:50,585
[Tony]
family, organizations, causes, but there's an extreme version

630
00:23:50,585 --> 00:23:52,825
[Tony]
or pathological version of that where people are

631
00:23:52,825 --> 00:23:54,505
[Tony]
so loyal that they stay in abusive or

632
00:23:54,505 --> 00:23:57,250
[Tony]
toxic relationships or they have a blind allegiance

633
00:23:57,789 --> 00:24:00,190
[Tony]
to faith or a political candidate or anything

634
00:24:00,190 --> 00:24:03,230
[Tony]
like that because they are being loyal. So

635
00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:06,610
[Tony]
that would almost be that pathological loyalty, frugality,

636
00:24:06,909 --> 00:24:09,730
[Tony]
something I'm not so familiar with. Positive version,

637
00:24:10,195 --> 00:24:13,395
[Tony]
avoiding waste, budgeting, which I've heard so much

638
00:24:13,395 --> 00:24:16,115
[Tony]
of. Now the extreme version, I have watched

639
00:24:16,115 --> 00:24:18,435
[Tony]
this in therapy, being a miser. I don't

640
00:24:18,435 --> 00:24:20,855
[Tony]
even know if that's Scrooge McDuck kinda language,

641
00:24:21,075 --> 00:24:23,955
[Tony]
but denying yourself and and your family of

642
00:24:23,955 --> 00:24:26,250
[Tony]
just some basic comforts. It can even start

643
00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:27,930
[Tony]
to look like hoarding. I remember working with

644
00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:29,710
[Tony]
somebody a long time ago that they were

645
00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:32,890
[Tony]
arguing about, a car that continually broke down

646
00:24:32,890 --> 00:24:34,910
[Tony]
and not even having an extra the entitlement,

647
00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:36,410
[Tony]
not even having an extra car if you

648
00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:38,335
[Tony]
can imagine this. But in this situation, a

649
00:24:38,335 --> 00:24:39,455
[Tony]
lot of kids, a lot of things to

650
00:24:39,455 --> 00:24:41,955
[Tony]
get to, and one old beat up car.

651
00:24:42,095 --> 00:24:44,575
[Tony]
And then at some point, the the spouse

652
00:24:44,575 --> 00:24:46,015
[Tony]
looked at me and said and I think

653
00:24:46,015 --> 00:24:47,695
[Tony]
I've told the number in a podcast long

654
00:24:47,695 --> 00:24:49,055
[Tony]
ago, and I'm sure I I don't remember

655
00:24:49,055 --> 00:24:50,580
[Tony]
the exact number, but it was something like,

656
00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:52,179
[Tony]
hey. Do you think having eight hundred grand

657
00:24:52,179 --> 00:24:53,620
[Tony]
in savings is enough that we could get

658
00:24:53,620 --> 00:24:55,140
[Tony]
a new car? And I spent the the

659
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:57,059
[Tony]
rest of the appointment trying to stay present,

660
00:24:57,059 --> 00:24:59,539
[Tony]
but thinking eight hundred grand in savings. Like,

661
00:24:59,539 --> 00:25:02,019
[Tony]
that's that's wild. I would I would definitely

662
00:25:02,019 --> 00:25:03,620
[Tony]
have a a different car as well as

663
00:25:03,620 --> 00:25:06,105
[Tony]
maybe a a grill, gold teeth or something

664
00:25:06,105 --> 00:25:08,025
[Tony]
else like that, which is probably why I'm

665
00:25:08,025 --> 00:25:10,265
[Tony]
not in that position. Some other ones though

666
00:25:10,265 --> 00:25:12,425
[Tony]
is self reliance. Positive version of that, you're

667
00:25:12,425 --> 00:25:14,345
[Tony]
independent. You're capable. I can handle things on

668
00:25:14,345 --> 00:25:17,085
[Tony]
my own. The pathological version of self reliance,

669
00:25:17,305 --> 00:25:19,630
[Tony]
I cannot ask for help. I I'm isolated

670
00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:21,070
[Tony]
and I'm burned out from trying to do

671
00:25:21,070 --> 00:25:23,310
[Tony]
everything by myself. I will not I refuse

672
00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:26,830
[Tony]
to ask for help. Optimism, positive version, seems

673
00:25:26,830 --> 00:25:28,670
[Tony]
pretty simple. I've got a positive outlook on

674
00:25:28,670 --> 00:25:31,390
[Tony]
life. Extreme, this is like a this is

675
00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:35,434
[Tony]
a buzzword these days, toxic positivity, denying, minimizing

676
00:25:35,495 --> 00:25:41,035
[Tony]
real problems. You cannot process negative emotions. Humility,

677
00:25:41,255 --> 00:25:44,294
[Tony]
something I'm incredibly good at, insert laugh track.

678
00:25:44,294 --> 00:25:46,294
[Tony]
You know, the positive version of that, be

679
00:25:46,294 --> 00:25:49,550
[Tony]
modest about somebody's accomplishments and importance, but the

680
00:25:49,550 --> 00:25:51,790
[Tony]
pathological version, which sometimes I think this is

681
00:25:51,790 --> 00:25:54,290
[Tony]
one of the close cousins of pathological kindness,

682
00:25:54,670 --> 00:25:57,490
[Tony]
self deprecating. Yeah. The inability to accept compliments,

683
00:25:57,550 --> 00:26:01,215
[Tony]
undervaluing your own contributions and worth where you'll

684
00:26:01,294 --> 00:26:03,455
[Tony]
hear people often just say, oh, man. Yeah.

685
00:26:03,455 --> 00:26:04,735
[Tony]
I I wouldn't be able to do that

686
00:26:04,735 --> 00:26:06,575
[Tony]
even if I tried. Where it's something, yeah,

687
00:26:06,575 --> 00:26:08,414
[Tony]
they can. I know they can. This is

688
00:26:08,414 --> 00:26:09,855
[Tony]
one where my my wife has done this

689
00:26:09,855 --> 00:26:12,255
[Tony]
Alcatraz swim seven or eight times from Alcatraz

690
00:26:12,255 --> 00:26:15,720
[Tony]
to the shore. She's incredibly talented and and

691
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,320
[Tony]
finishes in the top of her age group

692
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,080
[Tony]
most every time. But if I bring this

693
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,320
[Tony]
up, I'm not really a good swimmer. That's

694
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,160
[Tony]
self deprecating. She's phenomenal, incredibly talented with that.

695
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,185
[Tony]
It's fascinating. Honesty, that's one that I talk

696
00:26:28,185 --> 00:26:30,745
[Tony]
about when we're looking at people's values that

697
00:26:30,745 --> 00:26:32,745
[Tony]
people will often think, okay, I if I

698
00:26:32,745 --> 00:26:35,065
[Tony]
don't have a core value of honesty, then

699
00:26:35,065 --> 00:26:38,025
[Tony]
something's wrong with me. But there's, of course,

700
00:26:38,025 --> 00:26:41,120
[Tony]
there's the positive version, being truthful, having integrity.

701
00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:43,500
[Tony]
Those are I'm pro both of those. But

702
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:45,740
[Tony]
there's an extreme version, a pathological version of

703
00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:48,860
[Tony]
honesty, which is brutal, bluntness and and no

704
00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:52,220
[Tony]
tact, sharing inappropriately personal things, the inability to

705
00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:53,965
[Tony]
keep secrets. And I mean, I've I was

706
00:26:53,965 --> 00:26:55,645
[Tony]
speaking with someone just a few days ago

707
00:26:55,645 --> 00:26:57,804
[Tony]
that they want to share deeply with a

708
00:26:57,804 --> 00:27:00,765
[Tony]
spouse, but they cannot trust that that spouse

709
00:27:00,765 --> 00:27:03,565
[Tony]
will will keep their secret because if somebody

710
00:27:03,565 --> 00:27:05,965
[Tony]
asks them a question about it, they said

711
00:27:05,965 --> 00:27:07,565
[Tony]
that my spouse will just they'll say, well,

712
00:27:07,565 --> 00:27:10,720
[Tony]
it's just being honest. And so there's the

713
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,580
[Tony]
pathological version of honesty, patience. The good version,

714
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,680
[Tony]
wait calmly, tolerate delays without getting upset. The

715
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,360
[Tony]
pathological version, passivity. Other people taking advantage of

716
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,620
[Tony]
you, neglecting your own needs, your own timeliness.

717
00:27:24,335 --> 00:27:27,535
[Tony]
So and one more confidence. Positive version, believing

718
00:27:27,535 --> 00:27:30,675
[Tony]
in oneself. I think we know the pathological

719
00:27:30,735 --> 00:27:33,055
[Tony]
version of confidence which is an interesting way

720
00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:36,975
[Tony]
to say it. Arrience, dismissing others' opinions or

721
00:27:36,975 --> 00:27:38,700
[Tony]
expertise. Here's where we get into that world

722
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:41,820
[Tony]
of emotionally mature or taking unnecessary risks. So

723
00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:43,900
[Tony]
I think that this part and here we

724
00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:46,540
[Tony]
are barely into Clio's letter, but I think

725
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:50,540
[Tony]
that's a very significant part of understanding the

726
00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:54,995
[Tony]
pathology behind kindness because I think that this

727
00:27:54,995 --> 00:27:56,995
[Tony]
helps understand that traits that can be viewed

728
00:27:56,995 --> 00:27:58,835
[Tony]
as positive can start to be problematic if

729
00:27:58,835 --> 00:28:01,475
[Tony]
they're extreme or inflexible. So let's get back

730
00:28:01,475 --> 00:28:04,995
[Tony]
to Cleo's relationship with Ray. She says, I

731
00:28:04,995 --> 00:28:07,140
[Tony]
met Ray five years ago, and at first,

732
00:28:07,140 --> 00:28:09,460
[Tony]
everything was amazing. He was charming, attentive, and

733
00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:11,860
[Tony]
he seemed to need me so much. I

734
00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:13,940
[Tony]
felt like I finally found somebody who appreciated

735
00:28:13,940 --> 00:28:16,580
[Tony]
my kindness, but over time, things changed. Ray's

736
00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:18,900
[Tony]
moods became unpredictable. He'd be loving one minute

737
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:21,195
[Tony]
and cold the next. I found myself constantly

738
00:28:21,195 --> 00:28:23,434
[Tony]
trying to figure out what he needed always

739
00:28:23,434 --> 00:28:25,675
[Tony]
walking on eggshells. And I think that it's

740
00:28:25,675 --> 00:28:27,355
[Tony]
important to note that this part of Cleo

741
00:28:27,355 --> 00:28:29,915
[Tony]
story starts to show why the pathologically kind

742
00:28:29,915 --> 00:28:32,555
[Tony]
people are often drawn to the narcissist or

743
00:28:32,555 --> 00:28:35,279
[Tony]
the emotionally immature partner because the here's the

744
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,159
[Tony]
tricky part. The pathologically kind person ends up

745
00:28:38,159 --> 00:28:40,080
[Tony]
with that immature partner because it's almost like

746
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,179
[Tony]
this puzzle piece that fits into place because

747
00:28:42,399 --> 00:28:44,640
[Tony]
the kind person is used to putting others

748
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,559
[Tony]
first. And so when she said that he

749
00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:49,045
[Tony]
could appreciate how kind she was, so that

750
00:28:49,045 --> 00:28:51,765
[Tony]
narcissist or the emotionally immature person loves being

751
00:28:51,765 --> 00:28:54,165
[Tony]
put first. So the kind person then feels

752
00:28:54,165 --> 00:28:56,905
[Tony]
needed, which there's that concept of the familiar.

753
00:28:57,365 --> 00:28:59,205
[Tony]
So she feels like, okay, she knows what

754
00:28:59,205 --> 00:29:01,045
[Tony]
to do when she can put somebody else's

755
00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:03,945
[Tony]
needs first and then put her needs second.

756
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:05,410
[Tony]
And then she starts to talk about her

757
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:07,730
[Tony]
sensitivity. She said, I've always been sensitive. My

758
00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:10,130
[Tony]
friends joke that I can feel somebody's mood

759
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:12,930
[Tony]
from a mile away. But with Ray, it's

760
00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:15,010
[Tony]
exhausting. I feel every shift in his emotions,

761
00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:16,930
[Tony]
and I'm always trying to make things better.

762
00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:18,770
[Tony]
The problem is I'm so focused on his

763
00:29:18,770 --> 00:29:20,995
[Tony]
feelings that I've lost touch with my own.

764
00:29:20,995 --> 00:29:24,915
[Tony]
And this relates to what we call a

765
00:29:24,915 --> 00:29:28,915
[Tony]
highly sensitive person, HSP, and they feel things

766
00:29:28,915 --> 00:29:30,995
[Tony]
more deeply than others. It's like their emotional

767
00:29:30,995 --> 00:29:33,235
[Tony]
volume is turned up to an eleven all

768
00:29:33,235 --> 00:29:35,650
[Tony]
the time. And a lot of pathologically kind

769
00:29:35,650 --> 00:29:39,590
[Tony]
people would identify as HSPs, highly sensitive people.

770
00:29:39,890 --> 00:29:42,130
[Tony]
And they do say that they pick up

771
00:29:42,130 --> 00:29:44,450
[Tony]
on others' feelings easily, which makes them great

772
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:46,550
[Tony]
at being kind, but then it can also

773
00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:49,805
[Tony]
feel pretty overwhelming. And next, Cleo talks about

774
00:29:49,805 --> 00:29:51,645
[Tony]
her struggle to leave the relationship. She said,

775
00:29:51,645 --> 00:29:53,645
[Tony]
lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but it's

776
00:29:53,645 --> 00:29:55,805
[Tony]
just so hard. There are moments when Ray

777
00:29:55,805 --> 00:29:57,325
[Tony]
is sweet and loving, and I cling to

778
00:29:57,325 --> 00:29:59,165
[Tony]
those. They can see he does care. If

779
00:29:59,165 --> 00:30:00,925
[Tony]
I just try harder, then maybe things will

780
00:30:00,925 --> 00:30:03,245
[Tony]
get better. But then I'll say something cruel

781
00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:05,510
[Tony]
or dismissive, and then I am back to

782
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:08,470
[Tony]
square one. And this this does talk or

783
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:11,750
[Tony]
speak to the emotional inconsistency that I think

784
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:13,429
[Tony]
it's part of that concept that we truly

785
00:30:13,429 --> 00:30:15,510
[Tony]
don't know that we don't know. And I

786
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:16,870
[Tony]
won't spend too much time on this. I

787
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:19,135
[Tony]
think this is for a future episode. But

788
00:30:19,135 --> 00:30:20,975
[Tony]
I have recognized as I have tried to

789
00:30:20,975 --> 00:30:24,674
[Tony]
become more emotionally mature myself that so often

790
00:30:24,815 --> 00:30:26,335
[Tony]
we're unaware of the things that I would

791
00:30:26,335 --> 00:30:29,295
[Tony]
say fall into this bucket of validation. If

792
00:30:29,295 --> 00:30:30,975
[Tony]
I come home and I'm feeling overwhelmed and

793
00:30:30,975 --> 00:30:32,655
[Tony]
stressed and I really just need everybody to

794
00:30:32,655 --> 00:30:34,400
[Tony]
know that I've had a a rough day

795
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,520
[Tony]
and you just need to give me some

796
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,720
[Tony]
time, that that I really am wanting them

797
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,000
[Tony]
to know. And if I want them to

798
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,080
[Tony]
know, that that would technically fit in that

799
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,000
[Tony]
validation bucket, that I need these people to

800
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,800
[Tony]
understand or else then it won't matter or

801
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,400
[Tony]
it won't it it's as if it hasn't

802
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,085
[Tony]
happened. But if I know that I've had

803
00:30:50,085 --> 00:30:51,605
[Tony]
a rough day or I've note that I've

804
00:30:51,605 --> 00:30:54,565
[Tony]
been a little bit emotionally overwhelmed myself, then

805
00:30:54,565 --> 00:30:56,165
[Tony]
what I can do if I'm really trying

806
00:30:56,165 --> 00:30:58,645
[Tony]
to become differentiated is take that in and

807
00:30:58,645 --> 00:31:00,245
[Tony]
that there's nothing wrong with me. It's part

808
00:31:00,245 --> 00:31:01,510
[Tony]
of being human, and I can acknowledge that

809
00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:04,710
[Tony]
I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. I'm feeling those big

810
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:06,390
[Tony]
emotions, and then I can sit with those

811
00:31:06,390 --> 00:31:07,990
[Tony]
for a minute. I can get grounded before

812
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:09,350
[Tony]
I head home, maybe even on the ride

813
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:11,429
[Tony]
home, and I can just say, okay. I

814
00:31:11,429 --> 00:31:13,670
[Tony]
I am so sorry emotions for shoving you

815
00:31:13,670 --> 00:31:15,745
[Tony]
down my entire life. Let's hear it. And

816
00:31:15,745 --> 00:31:17,265
[Tony]
if they're saying, k. That was a lot.

817
00:31:17,265 --> 00:31:19,585
[Tony]
Or I feel like you were you weren't

818
00:31:19,585 --> 00:31:21,184
[Tony]
able to really express the things that you

819
00:31:21,184 --> 00:31:23,024
[Tony]
wanted to. Well, then there we go. Thank

820
00:31:23,024 --> 00:31:26,245
[Tony]
you emotions for coming for just making yourselves,

821
00:31:26,865 --> 00:31:29,650
[Tony]
big and helping me become aware because there's

822
00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:31,330
[Tony]
where I can pull out a nugget of

823
00:31:31,330 --> 00:31:34,610
[Tony]
self confrontation for growth. Yeah. There's truth in

824
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:37,430
[Tony]
that. Then why was I not expressing myself

825
00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:39,410
[Tony]
coming from a place of authenticity if that's

826
00:31:39,410 --> 00:31:40,850
[Tony]
one of my core values that I really

827
00:31:40,850 --> 00:31:42,865
[Tony]
want to be able to express myself? And

828
00:31:42,865 --> 00:31:44,625
[Tony]
if I'm grounded and if I know that

829
00:31:44,625 --> 00:31:46,065
[Tony]
I'm coming from a good place, then I

830
00:31:46,065 --> 00:31:47,985
[Tony]
can share these things as a therapist in

831
00:31:47,985 --> 00:31:49,825
[Tony]
a in a session. If I have somebody

832
00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:52,065
[Tony]
that's saying, okay. What do you think that

833
00:31:52,065 --> 00:31:53,345
[Tony]
that was rude of me to say? And

834
00:31:53,345 --> 00:31:54,784
[Tony]
if I really do feel like it was

835
00:31:54,784 --> 00:31:57,130
[Tony]
rude, but if I'm if I didn't say

836
00:31:57,130 --> 00:31:58,570
[Tony]
that, if I was saying, well, I can

837
00:31:58,570 --> 00:32:00,650
[Tony]
understand you're frustrated. What I just did was

838
00:32:00,650 --> 00:32:03,050
[Tony]
I I avoided the question. But it would

839
00:32:03,050 --> 00:32:04,250
[Tony]
be okay for me to say, you know,

840
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:06,510
[Tony]
in my experience, yeah, that does come across

841
00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:08,205
[Tony]
as a bit rude. Now tell me tell

842
00:32:08,205 --> 00:32:10,044
[Tony]
me how you feel about that, and what

843
00:32:10,044 --> 00:32:12,125
[Tony]
is your definition of rude? Because if you're

844
00:32:12,125 --> 00:32:14,044
[Tony]
asking me that, then I'm I I do

845
00:32:14,044 --> 00:32:16,065
[Tony]
feel that way now. I'm still maintaining this

846
00:32:16,125 --> 00:32:19,005
[Tony]
connection, this conversation, or this relationship, even if

847
00:32:19,005 --> 00:32:20,924
[Tony]
it's a therapeutic relationship with the person that's

848
00:32:20,924 --> 00:32:22,780
[Tony]
asking me that. So then I actually get

849
00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:24,460
[Tony]
the model that, oh, yeah. I can have

850
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:26,540
[Tony]
these feelings, and I can still actually stay

851
00:32:26,540 --> 00:32:29,820
[Tony]
engaged in this conversation, maintain this connection. In

852
00:32:29,820 --> 00:32:31,980
[Tony]
that scenario, I can get grounded, and then

853
00:32:31,980 --> 00:32:33,580
[Tony]
by the time I make it home, then

854
00:32:33,580 --> 00:32:35,420
[Tony]
I'm actually okay, and I can show up

855
00:32:35,420 --> 00:32:37,695
[Tony]
and be more emotionally consistent. So and I

856
00:32:37,695 --> 00:32:39,534
[Tony]
think that's one of the fascinating things is

857
00:32:39,534 --> 00:32:41,154
[Tony]
I'm not trying to say that I it's

858
00:32:41,375 --> 00:32:43,455
[Tony]
we can never express our emotions quite the

859
00:32:43,455 --> 00:32:45,934
[Tony]
opposite. But do I need to express those

860
00:32:45,934 --> 00:32:48,095
[Tony]
emotions to everybody that's walking around me because

861
00:32:48,095 --> 00:32:49,294
[Tony]
I need them to tell me that it's

862
00:32:49,294 --> 00:32:51,289
[Tony]
okay to have those emotions, or do I

863
00:32:51,289 --> 00:32:53,289
[Tony]
know it's okay and so those emotions are

864
00:32:53,289 --> 00:32:54,809
[Tony]
me thing and what are they saying to

865
00:32:54,809 --> 00:32:56,750
[Tony]
me? What can I learn from these emotions?

866
00:32:56,809 --> 00:32:58,490
[Tony]
And if I'm in a relationship where I

867
00:32:58,490 --> 00:33:01,210
[Tony]
feel safe and and secure, then I can

868
00:33:01,210 --> 00:33:03,130
[Tony]
even start to process these emotions with another

869
00:33:03,130 --> 00:33:04,970
[Tony]
human being. And then I can say, hey,

870
00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:06,169
[Tony]
let me take you on my train of

871
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:08,385
[Tony]
thought. I got pretty overwhelmed when this happened.

872
00:33:08,385 --> 00:33:09,345
[Tony]
I don't know. What are you what are

873
00:33:09,345 --> 00:33:10,945
[Tony]
your thoughts? What happens? Do you ever have

874
00:33:10,945 --> 00:33:12,945
[Tony]
that experience, and what's that like for you?

875
00:33:12,945 --> 00:33:15,105
[Tony]
And now we're having a shared experience, and

876
00:33:15,105 --> 00:33:16,945
[Tony]
that's one of the greatest ways that I

877
00:33:16,945 --> 00:33:19,680
[Tony]
can really be able to to self confront.

878
00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:21,820
[Tony]
But if that isn't available, then it is

879
00:33:21,820 --> 00:33:23,580
[Tony]
one hundred percent. It's a me thing. But

880
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:25,500
[Tony]
I think or I worry where Cleo is

881
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,300
[Tony]
going here is it's a classic example of

882
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:30,380
[Tony]
you got cognitive dissonance, which I covered on

883
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:33,605
[Tony]
an episode last week, and trauma bonding. Because

884
00:33:33,745 --> 00:33:35,925
[Tony]
when you are trying to leave a relationship,

885
00:33:36,625 --> 00:33:38,945
[Tony]
the kind person often faces this mental tug

886
00:33:38,945 --> 00:33:41,265
[Tony]
of war, and that is cognitive dissonance. They're

887
00:33:41,265 --> 00:33:44,225
[Tony]
thinking things like this person hurts me, but

888
00:33:44,225 --> 00:33:45,905
[Tony]
I think they must love me deep down.

889
00:33:45,905 --> 00:33:48,220
[Tony]
Or things are bad, but if I just

890
00:33:48,220 --> 00:33:50,860
[Tony]
try harder, I think it'll get better. And

891
00:33:50,860 --> 00:33:52,299
[Tony]
and I wanna cover some of the ground

892
00:33:52,299 --> 00:33:54,159
[Tony]
that I covered last week, but I I've

893
00:33:54,380 --> 00:33:56,059
[Tony]
been thinking about it even since that episode.

894
00:33:56,059 --> 00:33:57,900
[Tony]
When you really look at cognitive dissonance and

895
00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,595
[Tony]
we throw in this concept of trauma, Bonnie,

896
00:33:59,995 --> 00:34:01,515
[Tony]
it it is where your mind and heart

897
00:34:01,515 --> 00:34:03,195
[Tony]
are actually what is in a tug of

898
00:34:03,195 --> 00:34:05,674
[Tony]
war, and they're pulling in opposite directions. This

899
00:34:05,674 --> 00:34:08,155
[Tony]
is the internal conflict that can just suck

900
00:34:08,155 --> 00:34:09,755
[Tony]
the life out of you. It becomes draining.

901
00:34:09,755 --> 00:34:12,635
[Tony]
It can disorient you, and it is really

902
00:34:12,635 --> 00:34:14,870
[Tony]
one of these telltale signs of being caught

903
00:34:14,870 --> 00:34:16,710
[Tony]
in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally

904
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:19,670
[Tony]
manipulative or narcissistic. We're burning so many emotional

905
00:34:19,670 --> 00:34:21,430
[Tony]
calories on trying to figure out what is

906
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:23,590
[Tony]
going on or what is wrong. And so

907
00:34:23,590 --> 00:34:25,430
[Tony]
if you are navigating a relationship that is

908
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:28,395
[Tony]
filled with all kinds of contradictions, it's gonna

909
00:34:28,395 --> 00:34:30,555
[Tony]
leave you feeling like, okay, am I tight

910
00:34:30,555 --> 00:34:31,995
[Tony]
rope walking? Am I supposed to be juggling

911
00:34:31,995 --> 00:34:33,595
[Tony]
here? Am I spinning plates? I'm not even

912
00:34:33,595 --> 00:34:35,515
[Tony]
sure because your brain's constantly trying to make

913
00:34:35,515 --> 00:34:39,115
[Tony]
sense of all of the inconsistent experiences and

914
00:34:39,115 --> 00:34:41,870
[Tony]
emotions, which that is what starts to lead

915
00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:45,550
[Tony]
people just emotionally depleted, exhausted, tired. And that

916
00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:47,790
[Tony]
ongoing struggle, that starts to chip away at

917
00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:50,590
[Tony]
your confidence and your overall well-being, your sense

918
00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:52,510
[Tony]
of self. But if we wanna find a

919
00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:54,515
[Tony]
silver lining, and there can be one even

920
00:34:54,515 --> 00:34:57,235
[Tony]
though there's a lot of confusion, becoming aware

921
00:34:57,235 --> 00:34:59,955
[Tony]
of these conflicting thoughts and feelings, maybe guessed

922
00:34:59,955 --> 00:35:01,715
[Tony]
it, there's the first step. There's the bottom

923
00:35:01,715 --> 00:35:04,115
[Tony]
rung on the ladder to clarity and to

924
00:35:04,115 --> 00:35:06,355
[Tony]
healing. Because as you start to recognize all

925
00:35:06,355 --> 00:35:09,290
[Tony]
of these inconsistencies, it's like you're slowly adjusting

926
00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:11,210
[Tony]
your vision and you are allowing yourself to

927
00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:13,530
[Tony]
acknowledge that there are inconsistencies and not trying

928
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:15,210
[Tony]
to immediately cover them up with a, yeah,

929
00:35:15,210 --> 00:35:17,790
[Tony]
but, yeah, but they're also kind of nice.

930
00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:20,170
[Tony]
And that can start to bring the real

931
00:35:20,170 --> 00:35:22,570
[Tony]
true nature of this relationship into focus, but

932
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:25,035
[Tony]
it can start with into focus for you.

933
00:35:25,575 --> 00:35:27,815
[Tony]
And the more you have this awareness, this

934
00:35:27,815 --> 00:35:30,135
[Tony]
growing awareness, then you might start to spot

935
00:35:30,135 --> 00:35:33,175
[Tony]
recurring themes in your relationship that you really

936
00:35:33,175 --> 00:35:34,855
[Tony]
weren't aware of before because you were making

937
00:35:34,855 --> 00:35:37,589
[Tony]
excuses, because you didn't want to think that

938
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:40,309
[Tony]
this person was actually being pretty mean because

939
00:35:40,309 --> 00:35:42,230
[Tony]
we immediately go to, but maybe it's because

940
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:44,809
[Tony]
of this or they also are pretty nice.

941
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:47,029
[Tony]
Because where we're trying to get to here

942
00:35:47,029 --> 00:35:50,525
[Tony]
is to start trusting your own judgment, trusting

943
00:35:50,525 --> 00:35:52,845
[Tony]
your own gut rather than constantly questioning your

944
00:35:52,845 --> 00:35:56,285
[Tony]
perception of things because your emotions are are

945
00:35:56,285 --> 00:35:59,805
[Tony]
traveling far faster than your logic. So you're

946
00:35:59,805 --> 00:36:02,944
[Tony]
taking in visual cues, you're taking in, auditory

947
00:36:03,005 --> 00:36:04,829
[Tony]
cues, and it's going to that part of

948
00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:06,670
[Tony]
your brain that is immediately saying, is this

949
00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:08,829
[Tony]
safe? Is this okay? And it's even trying

950
00:36:08,829 --> 00:36:10,589
[Tony]
to scan for context like what's going on

951
00:36:10,589 --> 00:36:13,170
[Tony]
here? And it is so important to understand

952
00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:15,805
[Tony]
that it is okay to admit that that

953
00:36:15,805 --> 00:36:17,325
[Tony]
a relationship is not living up to your

954
00:36:17,325 --> 00:36:20,065
[Tony]
hopes and your expectations. Now that first admission

955
00:36:20,605 --> 00:36:22,605
[Tony]
might need to just be internal because if

956
00:36:22,605 --> 00:36:24,605
[Tony]
this is where if I immediately explode and

957
00:36:24,605 --> 00:36:27,005
[Tony]
say this is not working and I'm in

958
00:36:27,005 --> 00:36:29,289
[Tony]
an emotionally immature relationship, then I just handed

959
00:36:29,289 --> 00:36:31,049
[Tony]
that person fuel to say, yeah, you bet

960
00:36:31,049 --> 00:36:32,569
[Tony]
it's not working and I'm tired of the

961
00:36:32,569 --> 00:36:34,170
[Tony]
way that you're handling things. Like, wait, what?

962
00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:35,869
[Tony]
I'm the one that just brought this up.

963
00:36:36,089 --> 00:36:37,770
[Tony]
But having these mixed emotions when you're dealing

964
00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:40,270
[Tony]
with somebody who's emotionally immature, it's a natural

965
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:42,890
[Tony]
response. And when you acknowledge that that is

966
00:36:42,890 --> 00:36:44,865
[Tony]
a thing, that is how you're feeling, actually,

967
00:36:44,865 --> 00:36:46,725
[Tony]
it's more of a sign of emotional maturity,

968
00:36:46,945 --> 00:36:50,065
[Tony]
not some flaw in the relationship. Because if

969
00:36:50,065 --> 00:36:52,785
[Tony]
you find yourself continually just grappling with all

970
00:36:52,785 --> 00:36:55,345
[Tony]
kinds of conflicting behaviors, conflicting emotions in your

971
00:36:55,345 --> 00:36:57,990
[Tony]
relationship, then I think it's safe to say

972
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:59,270
[Tony]
it would be time to take a step

973
00:36:59,270 --> 00:37:00,790
[Tony]
back. Maybe you need to pause and you

974
00:37:00,790 --> 00:37:03,690
[Tony]
can even reassess. And I'll continue to reiterate

975
00:37:04,070 --> 00:37:06,390
[Tony]
in in this podcast today that you can

976
00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:09,770
[Tony]
do that and start from a place internally

977
00:37:10,070 --> 00:37:13,454
[Tony]
inside your head. Because too often we just

978
00:37:13,454 --> 00:37:15,295
[Tony]
wanna blurt things out. And then if we

979
00:37:15,295 --> 00:37:17,934
[Tony]
are in an unhealthy relationship, then that just

980
00:37:17,934 --> 00:37:19,855
[Tony]
gives that person more fuel to then turn

981
00:37:19,855 --> 00:37:22,335
[Tony]
it back around on us. I wanna encourage

982
00:37:22,335 --> 00:37:24,575
[Tony]
you to get guidance from a therapist, a

983
00:37:24,575 --> 00:37:28,870
[Tony]
mental health professional who knows these complex emotional

984
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:31,910
[Tony]
waters of immaturity because you are entitled to

985
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:34,010
[Tony]
a relationship. And, yes, I use that word

986
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:36,950
[Tony]
entitled. This in this scenario, we're not talking

987
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:38,630
[Tony]
about the young kids these days and their

988
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:40,615
[Tony]
sense of entitlement. Now I I can tell

989
00:37:40,615 --> 00:37:42,055
[Tony]
you to get off my lawn or my

990
00:37:42,055 --> 00:37:44,055
[Tony]
porch or whatever the old people like myself

991
00:37:44,055 --> 00:37:45,815
[Tony]
say. But I think that in this scenario,

992
00:37:45,815 --> 00:37:47,655
[Tony]
you are entitled to a relationship that brings

993
00:37:47,655 --> 00:37:49,975
[Tony]
you emotional stability. It brings you contentment and

994
00:37:49,975 --> 00:37:52,135
[Tony]
joy, and you can process emotion in concert

995
00:37:52,135 --> 00:37:54,970
[Tony]
with another human, not a continual cloud of

996
00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:57,769
[Tony]
uncertainty and self doubt because we wanna get

997
00:37:57,769 --> 00:37:58,970
[Tony]
back to that place where we listen to

998
00:37:58,970 --> 00:38:02,329
[Tony]
that inner voice. We practice self compassion, and

999
00:38:02,329 --> 00:38:04,890
[Tony]
and it will start to to come in

1000
00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:09,205
[Tony]
small increments. And it is absolutely fine to

1001
00:38:09,205 --> 00:38:12,565
[Tony]
prioritize your emotional health, your well-being, and to

1002
00:38:12,565 --> 00:38:15,365
[Tony]
seek out relationships that that nurture and support

1003
00:38:15,365 --> 00:38:18,405
[Tony]
you. Because there's a real mental struggle with

1004
00:38:18,405 --> 00:38:20,185
[Tony]
the whole up and down of a relationship

1005
00:38:20,325 --> 00:38:22,589
[Tony]
because that is what creates this trauma bond,

1006
00:38:22,589 --> 00:38:24,990
[Tony]
this intermittent reinforcement that the same person that

1007
00:38:24,990 --> 00:38:27,470
[Tony]
can provide you with the punishment is also

1008
00:38:27,470 --> 00:38:28,990
[Tony]
the one that has the key to the

1009
00:38:28,990 --> 00:38:32,029
[Tony]
reward. It is this emotional roller coaster that

1010
00:38:32,029 --> 00:38:33,390
[Tony]
is hard to get off, and some people,

1011
00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:35,805
[Tony]
I think, quite frankly, become somewhat addicted to

1012
00:38:36,045 --> 00:38:37,645
[Tony]
because then they just feel like if there

1013
00:38:37,645 --> 00:38:39,565
[Tony]
isn't chaos, if we're not going on the

1014
00:38:39,565 --> 00:38:41,244
[Tony]
downhill or we're not going on the uphill,

1015
00:38:41,244 --> 00:38:43,484
[Tony]
then there will be no downhill. But that

1016
00:38:43,484 --> 00:38:46,045
[Tony]
pathologically kind person, go back to the pathology

1017
00:38:46,045 --> 00:38:48,684
[Tony]
of it, remembers the good times intensely. Remember,

1018
00:38:48,684 --> 00:38:50,900
[Tony]
because they feel things so deeply that they

1019
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:52,500
[Tony]
keep hoping that these good times are gonna

1020
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:54,660
[Tony]
come back. But meanwhile, if you're in a

1021
00:38:54,660 --> 00:38:57,160
[Tony]
relationship with a narcissist or emotionally immature person,

1022
00:38:57,220 --> 00:38:59,300
[Tony]
they might act nice just often enough to

1023
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:01,220
[Tony]
keep the kind person helping, to keep them

1024
00:39:01,220 --> 00:39:03,780
[Tony]
just going on. Cleo then describes making excuses

1025
00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:05,445
[Tony]
for Ray's behavior. She said the strangest part

1026
00:39:05,445 --> 00:39:07,045
[Tony]
is even when Ray hurts me, I find

1027
00:39:07,045 --> 00:39:09,365
[Tony]
myself making excuses for him. I think he

1028
00:39:09,365 --> 00:39:11,285
[Tony]
must be in pain to act this way.

1029
00:39:11,285 --> 00:39:12,725
[Tony]
Or if I love him enough, he'll heal

1030
00:39:12,725 --> 00:39:15,365
[Tony]
and things will improve. And I assume that

1031
00:39:15,365 --> 00:39:16,885
[Tony]
he feels things as deeply as I do

1032
00:39:16,885 --> 00:39:18,085
[Tony]
and that his love for me must be

1033
00:39:18,085 --> 00:39:20,109
[Tony]
as intense as mine is for him. But

1034
00:39:20,109 --> 00:39:21,950
[Tony]
she said more and more, I'm wondering if

1035
00:39:21,950 --> 00:39:24,770
[Tony]
that's true. And I think that is another

1036
00:39:24,829 --> 00:39:27,070
[Tony]
common misunderstanding with the person that we were

1037
00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:30,349
[Tony]
deeming today as pathologically kind because I think

1038
00:39:30,349 --> 00:39:31,790
[Tony]
this is where it really starts to get

1039
00:39:31,790 --> 00:39:34,109
[Tony]
confusing because the pathologically kind person being so

1040
00:39:34,109 --> 00:39:38,025
[Tony]
empathetic assumes their partner feels things as deeply

1041
00:39:38,025 --> 00:39:40,105
[Tony]
as they do. Maybe not as on the

1042
00:39:40,105 --> 00:39:42,745
[Tony]
same exact level, but pretty similar. They must

1043
00:39:42,745 --> 00:39:44,505
[Tony]
think if I love this deeply, they must

1044
00:39:44,505 --> 00:39:46,505
[Tony]
too. If this is hurting me, I can't

1045
00:39:46,505 --> 00:39:47,945
[Tony]
even imagine how bad it would hurt them

1046
00:39:47,945 --> 00:39:50,190
[Tony]
and I don't wanna hurt them. But the

1047
00:39:50,190 --> 00:39:53,070
[Tony]
narcissist and the emotionally immature person doesn't have

1048
00:39:53,070 --> 00:39:55,710
[Tony]
that same depth of feeling. And then Cleo

1049
00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:57,390
[Tony]
mentions in her attempts to communicate with Ray,

1050
00:39:57,390 --> 00:39:58,590
[Tony]
she said I've tried to talk to Ray

1051
00:39:58,590 --> 00:40:00,750
[Tony]
about her problems, but then he either dismisses

1052
00:40:00,750 --> 00:40:02,270
[Tony]
my concerns or he turns them around on

1053
00:40:02,270 --> 00:40:04,105
[Tony]
me, and he'll say I'm too sensitive or

1054
00:40:04,105 --> 00:40:05,945
[Tony]
that I'm imagining things. And sometimes it'll be

1055
00:40:05,945 --> 00:40:07,785
[Tony]
nice for a while after these conversations, and

1056
00:40:07,785 --> 00:40:11,145
[Tony]
I'll think, okay, we're making progress. But then

1057
00:40:11,145 --> 00:40:12,425
[Tony]
things go back to the way that they

1058
00:40:12,425 --> 00:40:14,105
[Tony]
were, and she said, I feel like I'm

1059
00:40:14,105 --> 00:40:17,865
[Tony]
losing my mind. And a couple of things.

1060
00:40:17,865 --> 00:40:20,880
[Tony]
One is this is where just because you

1061
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,839
[Tony]
are no longer having unhealthy conversations does not

1062
00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:25,520
[Tony]
mean that the relationship is good. The absence

1063
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,079
[Tony]
of bad in a relationship does not equate

1064
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,160
[Tony]
to good. It's just that we are finally

1065
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,965
[Tony]
not, having a negative interaction in the relationship.

1066
00:40:35,585 --> 00:40:36,945
[Tony]
And I really think this part of Cleo

1067
00:40:36,945 --> 00:40:38,545
[Tony]
story shows how the lack of a stable

1068
00:40:38,545 --> 00:40:40,545
[Tony]
sense of self, a core identity starts to

1069
00:40:40,545 --> 00:40:43,744
[Tony]
impact her relationship. Because always focusing on others

1070
00:40:43,744 --> 00:40:45,744
[Tony]
can mean that the pathologically kind person doesn't

1071
00:40:45,744 --> 00:40:47,910
[Tony]
really know themselves very well. It's like they

1072
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:50,470
[Tony]
are so busy being what everybody else needs

1073
00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:51,750
[Tony]
that they forget to figure out who they

1074
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:54,710
[Tony]
are. And that isn't healthy because everybody needs

1075
00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:55,990
[Tony]
a strong sense of self in order to

1076
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:57,430
[Tony]
make good decisions, to be able to set

1077
00:40:57,430 --> 00:41:00,375
[Tony]
boundaries. And then I think that Cleo expresses

1078
00:41:00,595 --> 00:41:02,675
[Tony]
this her inner conflict. She says, I know

1079
00:41:02,675 --> 00:41:05,315
[Tony]
logically that this relationship isn't healthy, but every

1080
00:41:05,315 --> 00:41:06,915
[Tony]
time I think about leaving, I feel guilty.

1081
00:41:06,915 --> 00:41:08,515
[Tony]
I worry about how Ray will manage without

1082
00:41:08,515 --> 00:41:10,195
[Tony]
me. I remember the good times, and I

1083
00:41:10,195 --> 00:41:11,715
[Tony]
wonder if I'm giving up too easily. She

1084
00:41:11,715 --> 00:41:13,075
[Tony]
said, it's like there's a war in my

1085
00:41:13,075 --> 00:41:14,849
[Tony]
head between what I know and what I

1086
00:41:14,849 --> 00:41:17,569
[Tony]
feel. And that internal struggle is a key

1087
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:18,930
[Tony]
part of why it is so hard for

1088
00:41:18,930 --> 00:41:21,410
[Tony]
people like Cleo to leave these kinds of

1089
00:41:21,410 --> 00:41:24,049
[Tony]
relationships. And just if we go back and

1090
00:41:24,049 --> 00:41:27,010
[Tony]
and review, this cycle is so tough to

1091
00:41:27,010 --> 00:41:28,964
[Tony]
break because the kind person is used to

1092
00:41:28,964 --> 00:41:32,025
[Tony]
putting other people's needs first. They will continually

1093
00:41:32,085 --> 00:41:34,885
[Tony]
believe in the potential of the relationship even

1094
00:41:34,885 --> 00:41:36,984
[Tony]
to their own detriment, and they feel responsible

1095
00:41:37,045 --> 00:41:38,964
[Tony]
for their partner's happiness because that's the role

1096
00:41:38,964 --> 00:41:40,664
[Tony]
that they played growing up in their childhood.

1097
00:41:41,070 --> 00:41:44,270
[Tony]
And then the the intense emotions, those are

1098
00:41:44,270 --> 00:41:45,870
[Tony]
what they know. That's the familiar and that

1099
00:41:45,870 --> 00:41:48,590
[Tony]
feels like love even when they're actually from

1100
00:41:48,590 --> 00:41:52,030
[Tony]
stress or from anxiety. So finally then, I

1101
00:41:52,030 --> 00:41:54,555
[Tony]
think Cleo does acknowledge about how hard that

1102
00:41:54,555 --> 00:41:55,995
[Tony]
is to put herself first. She said, my

1103
00:41:55,995 --> 00:41:57,995
[Tony]
friends have been telling me for years that

1104
00:41:57,995 --> 00:41:59,595
[Tony]
I need to put myself first for once,

1105
00:41:59,595 --> 00:42:02,095
[Tony]
but she says the idea feels so foreign

1106
00:42:02,315 --> 00:42:04,955
[Tony]
that it feels wrong. She said, I've spent

1107
00:42:04,955 --> 00:42:07,420
[Tony]
my whole life taking care of others. So

1108
00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:09,340
[Tony]
the thought of prioritizing my own needs makes

1109
00:42:09,340 --> 00:42:12,380
[Tony]
me feel selfish and uncomfortable. And and this

1110
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:14,720
[Tony]
is a crucial point for the the pathologically

1111
00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:18,380
[Tony]
kind person because breaking free means that the

1112
00:42:18,380 --> 00:42:20,380
[Tony]
pathologically kind person has to do something that's

1113
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:22,994
[Tony]
gonna feel wrong to them, put themselves first.

1114
00:42:23,455 --> 00:42:25,535
[Tony]
And it's like they are learning how to

1115
00:42:25,535 --> 00:42:27,695
[Tony]
write with a I'm left handed, trying to

1116
00:42:27,695 --> 00:42:29,055
[Tony]
write with my right hand. I mean, it

1117
00:42:29,055 --> 00:42:31,455
[Tony]
feels very odd and very uncomfortable at first,

1118
00:42:31,455 --> 00:42:32,895
[Tony]
but I've been told if I continue to

1119
00:42:32,895 --> 00:42:35,215
[Tony]
do it, someday it would could actually feel

1120
00:42:35,215 --> 00:42:38,020
[Tony]
somewhat normal. But understanding all of this, that's

1121
00:42:38,020 --> 00:42:39,700
[Tony]
the first step in breaking this cycle, and

1122
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:42,440
[Tony]
it helps that pathologically kind person see that

1123
00:42:42,740 --> 00:42:44,980
[Tony]
always being kind isn't always being kind to

1124
00:42:44,980 --> 00:42:47,319
[Tony]
themselves or even to people in their family.

1125
00:42:47,540 --> 00:42:49,859
[Tony]
And learning to balance that kindness to others

1126
00:42:49,859 --> 00:42:52,835
[Tony]
with kindness to yourself, that that starts to

1127
00:42:52,835 --> 00:42:55,075
[Tony]
become this key to a healthier relationship. Because

1128
00:42:55,075 --> 00:42:56,595
[Tony]
I think that her story, why I really

1129
00:42:56,595 --> 00:42:57,875
[Tony]
appreciated this so much is it is such

1130
00:42:57,875 --> 00:43:00,934
[Tony]
a good example of how complex and challenging

1131
00:43:01,315 --> 00:43:04,210
[Tony]
things like her relationship with Ray are. Because

1132
00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:05,730
[Tony]
it's not just as simple as telling somebody

1133
00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:07,670
[Tony]
to just leave. Just leave a bad relationship

1134
00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:10,610
[Tony]
because there are deep rooted psychological factors that

1135
00:43:10,610 --> 00:43:12,770
[Tony]
are at play here. So if there's anybody

1136
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:15,350
[Tony]
that's listening who relates to Clio story, remember

1137
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:18,065
[Tony]
that recognizing the patterns is the first step

1138
00:43:18,065 --> 00:43:19,905
[Tony]
toward change. If if you are feeling something

1139
00:43:19,905 --> 00:43:22,305
[Tony]
very familiar today with that story, then just

1140
00:43:22,305 --> 00:43:23,425
[Tony]
sit with that a little bit. Take it

1141
00:43:23,425 --> 00:43:25,025
[Tony]
in. There's nothing wrong with you. You're just

1142
00:43:25,025 --> 00:43:27,265
[Tony]
starting to process some data. And know that

1143
00:43:27,265 --> 00:43:29,105
[Tony]
the last thing I'm saying is that you

1144
00:43:29,105 --> 00:43:30,464
[Tony]
need to knock it off being kind. It's

1145
00:43:30,464 --> 00:43:32,550
[Tony]
okay to be kind, but it's crucial to

1146
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:35,990
[Tony]
extend that kindness to yourself. So seeking professional

1147
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:37,910
[Tony]
help, talking to a therapist, a coach, that

1148
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:39,830
[Tony]
can be invaluable and starting to learn how

1149
00:43:39,830 --> 00:43:42,790
[Tony]
to navigate these complex emotional landscapes that are

1150
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:46,395
[Tony]
known as relationships and build healthier relationships, both

1151
00:43:46,395 --> 00:43:48,575
[Tony]
not just with other people, but with yourself.

1152
00:43:49,435 --> 00:43:51,435
[Tony]
So let's wrap things up here today because

1153
00:43:51,435 --> 00:43:53,275
[Tony]
I think that her story, it just shows

1154
00:43:53,275 --> 00:43:56,475
[Tony]
the complex the complex what interplay between being

1155
00:43:56,475 --> 00:43:59,910
[Tony]
pathologically kind, being highly sensitive, and then feeling

1156
00:43:59,910 --> 00:44:01,430
[Tony]
somewhat stuck or trapped in a relationship with

1157
00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:04,150
[Tony]
somebody who is emotionally immature or even on

1158
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:06,470
[Tony]
the spectrum of narcissism. It is a pattern

1159
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:08,230
[Tony]
that a lot of people find themselves in,

1160
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:10,869
[Tony]
and they don't realize how they even got

1161
00:44:10,869 --> 00:44:13,994
[Tony]
there. They're just there. But that journey from

1162
00:44:13,994 --> 00:44:16,954
[Tony]
recognizing the dynamic to then breaking free, it's

1163
00:44:16,954 --> 00:44:19,275
[Tony]
it's a path. It's challenging. But it's also

1164
00:44:19,275 --> 00:44:21,115
[Tony]
this path of self discovery. It's a path

1165
00:44:21,115 --> 00:44:23,915
[Tony]
to a healthier relationship. But remember that if

1166
00:44:23,915 --> 00:44:26,395
[Tony]
you can relate to Clio's experience, you're not

1167
00:44:26,395 --> 00:44:29,140
[Tony]
alone, and there's absolutely hope that things can

1168
00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:31,380
[Tony]
get better. So I I wanna just give

1169
00:44:31,380 --> 00:44:32,820
[Tony]
you a couple of takeaways. We'll call them

1170
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:35,800
[Tony]
today. First, recognize that again, being kind, admirable,

1171
00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:37,300
[Tony]
but not at the expense of your own

1172
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:39,620
[Tony]
well-being. I would also say, understand that your

1173
00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:43,175
[Tony]
empathy and your sensitivity also are strengths, but

1174
00:44:43,555 --> 00:44:45,475
[Tony]
can they be balanced with strong boundaries? And

1175
00:44:45,475 --> 00:44:47,155
[Tony]
I know that can be a challenge. And

1176
00:44:47,155 --> 00:44:49,175
[Tony]
remembering that a boundary is not an ultimatum.

1177
00:44:49,235 --> 00:44:50,435
[Tony]
It's not a you need to do this.

1178
00:44:50,435 --> 00:44:51,875
[Tony]
It's a if you do this, then this

1179
00:44:51,875 --> 00:44:54,295
[Tony]
is what I'll do for myself. And then

1180
00:44:54,355 --> 00:44:56,915
[Tony]
I'd say finally, remember that love should not

1181
00:44:56,915 --> 00:44:59,450
[Tony]
feel like a constant struggle or an emotional

1182
00:44:59,450 --> 00:45:02,089
[Tony]
roller coaster. So how do you implement this?

1183
00:45:02,089 --> 00:45:04,730
[Tony]
What do you do? Here we go. Self

1184
00:45:04,730 --> 00:45:06,890
[Tony]
care. Self care is not selfish. Small acts

1185
00:45:06,890 --> 00:45:08,490
[Tony]
of self care daily, even if it feels

1186
00:45:08,490 --> 00:45:10,490
[Tony]
uncomfortable. It can be as simple as saying

1187
00:45:10,490 --> 00:45:12,465
[Tony]
no to a request that doesn't serve you.

1188
00:45:12,705 --> 00:45:14,785
[Tony]
I really am on a big journaling kick

1189
00:45:14,785 --> 00:45:16,865
[Tony]
right now, journaling about your feelings, your experiences,

1190
00:45:16,865 --> 00:45:18,945
[Tony]
and your relationships because that will help you

1191
00:45:18,945 --> 00:45:20,945
[Tony]
start to identify patterns rather than just kicking

1192
00:45:20,945 --> 00:45:22,545
[Tony]
things around in your head. And then you

1193
00:45:22,545 --> 00:45:24,865
[Tony]
will start to recognize things that you're writing

1194
00:45:24,865 --> 00:45:26,625
[Tony]
down and and maybe it will help you

1195
00:45:26,625 --> 00:45:29,000
[Tony]
start to trust your own perception. And finally,

1196
00:45:29,140 --> 00:45:30,980
[Tony]
I would really recommend that if you if

1197
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:32,820
[Tony]
this resonated today, reach out to a therapist

1198
00:45:32,820 --> 00:45:34,740
[Tony]
or a counselor, but one who specializes in

1199
00:45:34,740 --> 00:45:38,420
[Tony]
things like codependency or narcissistic abuse recovery because

1200
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:40,420
[Tony]
they will be able to really recognize all

1201
00:45:40,420 --> 00:45:42,345
[Tony]
these variables that are at play and and

1202
00:45:42,345 --> 00:45:44,105
[Tony]
give you a little bit of personalized guidance

1203
00:45:44,105 --> 00:45:46,425
[Tony]
and help you navigate these big emotions, these

1204
00:45:46,425 --> 00:45:50,585
[Tony]
big relationship dynamics. But also know change does

1205
00:45:50,585 --> 00:45:53,785
[Tony]
take time. Every small step, I'm trying to

1206
00:45:53,785 --> 00:45:55,145
[Tony]
say this in a, oh my gosh, every

1207
00:45:55,145 --> 00:45:56,585
[Tony]
small step, you better start making all the

1208
00:45:56,585 --> 00:45:58,900
[Tony]
small steps now. Every small step towards self

1209
00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:01,620
[Tony]
awareness, every small step towards self respect is

1210
00:46:01,620 --> 00:46:04,100
[Tony]
an absolute victory. Now, if you have been

1211
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:05,940
[Tony]
listening and you have realized that you might

1212
00:46:05,940 --> 00:46:08,040
[Tony]
be the emotionally immature person in the relationship,

1213
00:46:08,420 --> 00:46:10,020
[Tony]
I want you to know this is a

1214
00:46:10,020 --> 00:46:12,020
[Tony]
a big moment, a moment of self awareness,

1215
00:46:12,020 --> 00:46:15,145
[Tony]
and it is incredibly valuable, but it is

1216
00:46:15,145 --> 00:46:17,065
[Tony]
not easy to look at ourselves honestly and

1217
00:46:17,065 --> 00:46:19,065
[Tony]
recognize behaviors that might be hurting those that

1218
00:46:19,065 --> 00:46:20,825
[Tony]
we love. But I promise that by doing

1219
00:46:20,825 --> 00:46:23,305
[Tony]
so, you've taken a big step. And it's

1220
00:46:23,305 --> 00:46:25,305
[Tony]
often the hardest step toward a positive change

1221
00:46:25,305 --> 00:46:28,105
[Tony]
because remember, emotional immaturity is not a lifetime

1222
00:46:28,105 --> 00:46:30,160
[Tony]
sentence as much as people think it is

1223
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,240
[Tony]
when they hear about that. It's a starting

1224
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:34,320
[Tony]
point for growth. We're all emotionally immature until

1225
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,200
[Tony]
we're not. So your willingness to acknowledge the

1226
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,600
[Tony]
patterns that you might be engaging in, that's

1227
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,000
[Tony]
that shows courage, that shows the capacity for

1228
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,245
[Tony]
self reflection, and that is gonna serve you

1229
00:46:44,245 --> 00:46:47,065
[Tony]
incredibly well on your own journey of development.

1230
00:46:47,445 --> 00:46:49,925
[Tony]
It it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay

1231
00:46:49,925 --> 00:46:52,085
[Tony]
to feel even feeling guilty. I don't wanna

1232
00:46:52,085 --> 00:46:54,085
[Tony]
go into shame, but just don't let those

1233
00:46:54,085 --> 00:46:56,579
[Tony]
feelings stop you. They aren't there as a

1234
00:46:56,579 --> 00:46:58,900
[Tony]
damn, those are feelings. Start to let them

1235
00:46:58,900 --> 00:47:01,619
[Tony]
in. Use those feelings as motivation to learn,

1236
00:47:01,619 --> 00:47:03,539
[Tony]
to grow, to become, the partner that you

1237
00:47:03,539 --> 00:47:05,700
[Tony]
maybe have always wanted to be. And I

1238
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:07,539
[Tony]
would also say to you, work with a

1239
00:47:07,539 --> 00:47:09,059
[Tony]
therapist who can guide you through the process

1240
00:47:09,059 --> 00:47:12,455
[Tony]
of emotional growth, emotional intelligence, emotional IQ, you

1241
00:47:12,455 --> 00:47:14,795
[Tony]
name it, and you can start to work

1242
00:47:15,255 --> 00:47:18,875
[Tony]
on being empathetic, practice active listening, learn to

1243
00:47:19,015 --> 00:47:21,755
[Tony]
regulate your emotions, be patient with yourself because

1244
00:47:22,055 --> 00:47:23,735
[Tony]
as I think the theme today has also

1245
00:47:23,735 --> 00:47:26,215
[Tony]
been change takes time, but every single little

1246
00:47:26,215 --> 00:47:28,730
[Tony]
bit helps. And if you commit to this

1247
00:47:28,730 --> 00:47:30,330
[Tony]
path of self improvement, then you're not only

1248
00:47:30,330 --> 00:47:32,410
[Tony]
working toward a healthier relationship, but also it

1249
00:47:32,410 --> 00:47:34,170
[Tony]
is a more fulfilling life. I promise you

1250
00:47:34,170 --> 00:47:35,710
[Tony]
when you can sit with your own discomfort,

1251
00:47:35,850 --> 00:47:37,450
[Tony]
do a little self confrontation, and show up

1252
00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:39,714
[Tony]
different and emotionally consistent, turns out you're a

1253
00:47:39,714 --> 00:47:41,875
[Tony]
pretty fun hang. And that is a strength.

1254
00:47:41,875 --> 00:47:44,355
[Tony]
It is not a weakness. And, man, while

1255
00:47:44,355 --> 00:47:45,714
[Tony]
I'm ending with a bunch of cliches, it

1256
00:47:45,714 --> 00:47:47,954
[Tony]
is never too late to truly start being

1257
00:47:47,954 --> 00:47:49,395
[Tony]
the best version of yourself. So thank you

1258
00:47:49,395 --> 00:47:51,474
[Tony]
so much for joining me today. I would

1259
00:47:51,474 --> 00:47:52,835
[Tony]
love to hear your stories. I would love

1260
00:47:52,835 --> 00:47:56,090
[Tony]
to hear your examples, your growth, even if

1261
00:47:56,090 --> 00:47:58,330
[Tony]
there are things that you are starting to

1262
00:47:58,330 --> 00:48:00,650
[Tony]
wake up to and recognize in yourself or

1263
00:48:00,650 --> 00:48:02,650
[Tony]
in your relationship. Reach out, send those to

1264
00:48:02,650 --> 00:48:04,730
[Tony]
contacttonioverbay dot com. Please sign up for my

1265
00:48:04,730 --> 00:48:06,970
[Tony]
newsletter. Subscribe to all the things, and I

1266
00:48:06,970 --> 00:48:09,674
[Tony]
will see you next time on the podcast.

1267
00:48:10,535 --> 00:48:14,615
[Aurora]
Compressed emotions flying past our heads and out

1268
00:48:14,615 --> 00:48:18,395
[Aurora]
the other end. The pressures of the daily