Okay, let's take a stroll down memory lane, picture.
This you are 16.
And a new restaurant called frontier pies pops up in your neighborhood,
pretty close to your house.
And you're thinking.
this is it.
This is my big break into the culinary world.
I am going to be a pie maker.
So there you are.
You're daydreaming about your future pie empire.
You're torn between.
, should I lead with a classic apple pie Because?
can't go wrong with the classics or do I go full mad scientists with some wild
chocolate chip mint crest concoction.
And you're practicing your lines in the mirror when you're going to the
interview, you know, I've, eaten more pies than I can count, or I can't wait
to learn the ancient art of pie making.
But then you show up for the interview reality hits you like a.
Sorry, it's too easy, but a cream pie to the face because the manager's questions.
Or about as deep as a pie tin.
Do you have a car?
Can you work weekends and nights?
You appear to be breathing right.
Okay.
You're hired and boom.
Just like that.
You are not the next great pie master chef.
You're a bus boy.
Fast forward to opening weekend and then some customer decides to re-enact that
pie eating contest scene from stand by me.
If you haven't seen it, please go find a clip on YouTube.
Except for, they take it a step further because they return this PI.
All over the women's bathroom.
And we're talking to the floor and the counter in the hallway and everywhere.
And guess who gets to play janitor to this pie apocalypse.
That's right.
You, you guessed it.
Not the now master Piman, but the mighty bus boy.
So there you are mopping hand thinking this was not what I anticipated when
I was daydreaming about my pie empire.
And and that is how your dreams of pie domination turned into
a very messy reality check.
but maybe you have had your own experience with a job interview.
You're up all night and you're prepping and you're drilling yourself
on all those classic questions.
Like
what's your biggest weakness?
I care too much or I work too hard and sometimes I think I'm too efficient
or , Do you consider perfectionism a weakness in this industry?
Or you've got a very killer story about how you saved your last project from
disaster, and you don't want to drop names, but let's just say the owner of
the company, maybe you've heard of him.
Jackson box.
I believe he goes by the name Jack to most.
Was so impressed that you indeed got a 15 cent race, not a dime 15 cents.
But basically I'm ready for anything.
But then you walk in and boom.
The interviewer spots, a hobby listed at the bottom of your resume.
And the next thing, you know, you're chatting about your obsession with growing
tomatoes on your fire escape, as well as falconry and fixing unfold radios, you
find it garage sales, and now you're both laughing about how your, tomato plants
have basically become your children or how go figure who knew Falcons loved the
DIY shows on am radio and how actually.
Those experiences have taught you a ton about patients in the workplace
while simultaneously learning.
That you never really know what you don't know.
Until you've really seen a Falcon stop halfway through tearing apart his dinner
to seem as if he's almost disagreeing with the grain of sandpaper that the
talk show host is recommending one use.
On their 30 year old deck before applying stain.
And then I'll wait, time's up already.
We've felt so connected.
So you walk out thinking.
I never really mentioned that awesome project saved that I had really thought
about, but you know what it felt good.
You clicked with the interviewer and then the whole thing was
way more fun than you expected.
But when you allow yourself to be patient in that moment, give yourself
a little psychological flexibility.
You can have a genuine shared experience with another, with the
interviewer, whoever it is, , you basically plan for one thing and you
get something completely different.
But if you are being yourself, It's sometimes not even sometimes most
of the time that is even better.
So welcome to episode 116 of waking up the narcissism.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And that opening story was born from an experience I had this week.
And what has led to this very episode today?
One where we are going to.
Go really deep comparing and contrasting emotional immaturity narcissism.
Nice guy or nice person syndrome.
And I'm gonna introduce to you, I think it's going to be a really helpful
and healthy way to talk about what healthy versions of relationships
look like in different situations.
'cause earlier this week, I was a guest on the stuff and Craig's
show and it's a really enjoyable.
I'd say thought provoking podcasts by a couple Steph and Craig who have been
through a lot in their relationship, in their marriage and their careers.
And they just decided to go full vulnerability and put it out there.
And it was amazing.
We chatted for almost two hours and we covered a wide
range of all kinds of topics.
Everything around differentiation, emotional immaturity.
I got to talk about my four pillars that we just talked about.
So many things.
Except for one that I had prepared extensively for, and it's totally on me
because they teed me up perfectly, but then the conversation just kept flowing.
It was so natural that I did keep looking for a way to circle
back to my prepared material.
But eventually I realized that it would feel very forced to try to squeeze it in.
And honestly, this might sound silly, but I remember the point during the
interview where it kind of hit me.
So I have my own podcast.
I could discuss these things right after my chat with Stephen Craig.
So that's exactly what I, I am doing.
And by the way, though, I highly recommend checking out Stephen Craig
there on . YouTube, Instagram, Tik, TOK.
And watch the entire interview.
They're putting up some clips and there's one right now about where
I'm talking about what differentiation looks like of learning, how to try
and maintain a connection with someone while holding onto yourself and
developing your own independence and autonomy in a relationship, which is.
The healthy way that relationships can work.
The first part of what I want to share is probably going to sound familiar.
If you have listened to the podcast even somewhat regularly, because it
starts with how people throw around the word narcissist, like it's no big deal.
Again, it sounds like almost everybody's a narcissist.
Certainly everyone's X fill in the blank is ex spouse, ex boss X church X mailman.
But in reality only, and this is debatable, but somewhere three to 5%.
Of people would be actually diagnosable narcissist with narcissistic
personality disorder, or really anything in that personality disorder,
cluster, a cluster B, I think it is.
Narcissism and histrionic personality disorder as well as borderline.
But the rest of us.
We're all emotionally immature.
And I will defend that with everything I have.
Because there is where we can start to find ourselves with a slight
amount of, shall we say hope.
Pope in ourselves.
Maybe even hoping the relationship, although we'll talk about that.
Because with the first rule of nurses club is you don't talk
about nurses club, meaning you don't tell the narcissists that you
suspect that they are a narcissist.
And I will also then add to that rule that, and if you are
asking yourself, if you are.
. And I would say.
You're not because you're the one that's trying to figure it out.
Now the big difference there is, if you're listening to this and you
are a little bit more narcissistic or very emotionally immature, but
you just said, oh, Tony said, if you say these words, then you're not.
And I just said those words, apparently I'm not.
That is a whole different vibe.
That is a whole different energy.
But.
If we go down this path of emotional immaturity.
Then it's a easier to talk about.
Maybe even a little easier to stomach.
Going on an exploration of my own emotional immaturity versus my narcissism.
Emotional maturity is still not something you're going to see a greeting card
made of, you know, Hey, congrats.
They're actually not in our system.
But I think you're incredibly, emotionally immature.
Although, it's not a bad idea for a line of cards.
But we can work on emotional immaturity.
It's not easy though.
You gotta be ready to face some very uncomfortable feelings, learning
how to sit with that discomfort.
And learning how to self confront.
You will need to admit that there are things that you don't know, you don't
even know that you don't know them.
And learn how to calm yourself down self-sooth and learn how
to take responsibility for your actions and try to understand other
people's feelings a bit better.
And if you do all of that, you really can start to change your life for the better.
And whenever I head down this path always reminds me of the movie dumb and dumber.
If you remember if you've seen it.
If you haven't, you are missing out.
But Jim Carey's character.
Who is named Lloyd Christmas.
Asks his love interest.
So you're telling me I have a chance and I think that's how
it is with the emotional growth.
There's a chance you're telling me that I've got a chance to get better.
And for a lot of us, if we felt like what is wrong with me, or I don't even
know what's going wrong, or I don't know how to show up differently, or
I don't understand why my spouse is continuing to do the things they're doing.
But if I can look at that from a place of emotional immaturity, Where it were
telling me that I've got a chance.
And speaking of that movie quote, I think this is a funny story.
I've always thought that Jim Carey said that line early in the movie
that it was when he was in this limousine and he rolls down a window.
And also it was tied in with the line, throw another shrimp on the
Barbie when she says that she's from.
I don't ever see, look at this.
I don't remember that part.
But it turns out though.
Anyway, I was wrong.
That scene you're telling me you have a chance to actually happens later
when he's trying to see if he has a shot with the girl, he likes the,
her character name was Mary Swanson.
And I think this mix-up is a really good example of.
confabulation.
Confabulation is when our brains filling gaps in our memories with made up
things, things that we think happened.
And we really believe that those things are true.
People sometimes have called it things like honest, lying.
I think when you hear lying, it's just like hearing the word
narcissist it's hard to say.
Healthy narcissism or honest lying, but people will call it honest line
because we're in those scenarios, not trying to fool anybody.
We just got our wires, crossed our mechanism of memory fills in gaps.
It happens with everybody and it's usually not that big of a deal.
Let me take you to the actual dialogue from the movie.
So a reminder, Lloyd Christmas . Carrie's character was trying to see if he had
a chance with a romantic relationship.
With his love interest, Mary Swanson, Q a.
Lloyd Christmas.
He says, what do you think the chances are of a guy like you and
a girl like me ending up together, which right there is some of the
brilliance of dumb and dumber BeltLine.
Where he is saying a guy like you and a girl like me and the up together,
the Mary Swanson says not good.
And Lloyd says, you mean.
Not good, like one out of a hundred.
And she says, I'd say more like one out of a million.
And there's a dramatic pause.
And then Lloyd says C telling me there's a chance.
So the line itself is different.
The place in the movie, it was different.
And I was convinced that I had that thing down.
There's your beer?
Honest kind version of confabulation will regular confabulation.
You know, it's like when you swear a favorite childhood toy was blue,
but then your mom shows you a picture and it was actually red.
And it's really not that big of a deal, a little uncomfortable.
You just kind of laugh it off.
But now narcissistic confabulation, that's a whole different ballgame.
It's like, you're telling that person with the toy.
AI, I think it was red and they flip out and they insisted it was blue.
We're talking now in adulthood.
And then somehow they make you feel crazy for even suggesting
otherwise, they're saying things like how did you doctor that photo?
Because I know it wasn't red, it was blue period.
End of story.
And they're literally looking at a picture and it's red.
Oh, they're thinking.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
It must be one of those deep fakes.
I've heard a lot about those.
How do I even know?
That was you, mom.
That's show me that's your arm and the picture and the kid.
Now they look at that.
That's not even me.
What does that a child actor?
Holding a red toy.
This whole thing stage, holy cow, I'm having a hard time because
now I'm almost starting to have a panic attack because that isn't me.
The toy was red.
And I don't even know if I can trust you.
I mean, the very fact that you brought me this obviously doctored a photo with
some kid actors some type of sick joke, like seriously, So you see a narcissist
uses confabulation like a bit of a shield.
Because they're not just filling in memory gaps, they're rewriting
history to make themselves look good.
And it happens in real time.
It's not about forgetting.
It's about not being able to handle the idea that they might be wrong or at fault.
It's an essence, like you picture the inner child, the little kid there.
Who's terrified of being abandoned of being left alone because that's, what's.
Going on in the Narcisse head.
And I'm not talking, it's conscious.
It's very deep in there.
This belief that if they are wrong or did something that made somebody sad or feel
bad, Did that person will abandon them.
In that very moment.
It's the sway that the concept of gaslighting.
It is a childhood defense mechanism.
It has been the air that one breeze for a very long time,
which is why it's so convincing.
So it not only couldn't have happened the way you think about it I'll
know it did not happen that way.
And as a matter of fact, they can't believe that you would even
think the way that you're thinking, because you must not know them.
You must not understand them.
You must not see them.
And actually they not require an apology.
Which if you are the pathological kind of person you've most likely
given on many, many occasions and then went and wasted an insane amount
of emotional calories and energy.
Trying to figure out, wait, am I crazy?
Wait, am I the problem?
Is there so scared of being abandoned or seen as less than
perfect that they'll twist reality.
To avoid it..
So when something happens and it might be their fault, their
brain goes into overdrive.
It's like their mind is saying, Nope, can't be my fault.
Must have been something else.
And then again, the kicker.
They believe that made up version.
This is why they can look you dead in the eye and swear up
and down that toy was blue.
You know that something happened completely different than you remember.
And there, there is a version of someone who has, is just impulsively, lying.
And that's where that.
Fine line comes in of the impulsively lying.
Versus the truly confabulating a narrative because in that scenario, they're not
just lying and their mind is true.
It has to be true.
It can't be the way that you say it is because that would mean they did something
wrong or they hurt your feelings.
So that's where the gaslighting comes in.
They are so convincing with their fake versions of events.
That you start doubting yourself.
You're thinking.
Wait, did I remember that wrong?
Am I, the one messing up here.
It's you're both watching a movie, but when you talk about it later, they
describe a totally different plot.
And they're so sure about it.
You start wondering if you dozed off and miss something,
because I have done that before.
The big differences that we'll say regular people.
I don't mean that to sound judgmental, but can usually admit here's that.
Version of being emotionally immature, but with this desire for
growth, He usually myth when they might be wrong, even about a memory.
But the narcissist or the incredibly emotionally mature,
just can't their fragile ego.
Won't let them.
So they stick to that story.
You, no matter what, because in their minds, it's the only
way things could have happened.
anD while I know from my work over the past, nearly two decades with,
especially the population that I'm, I am fortunate enough to work with that.
There are people who truly do not appear to be capable of change.
And that's a eight bless their heart.
If that is that deep buried from childhood, that that's the way
that they feel that they have to show up in the world in order.
To be okay.
That's where you can start to acknowledge a bit of empathy.
For the person in that situation that doesn't mean you have to continually
put yourself in a position with that person where they can emotionally,
physically, financially, religiously, verbally, anything abuse you.
Because this is your job is to figure out how you show up in the relationship.
Because what can be really difficult is I know that fine line, that somewhere there.
Where the more that one person tries to improve the relationship.
That then when someone is incredibly emotionally mature or into that
narcissistic personality disorder world.
Where then not only does it not.
Even begin to slightly change the relationship for what
could be even argued is better.
Even a tiny bit better.
No, the more that the aware person.
Is trying to improve the relationship.
I'm beginning to call it this attack surface.
The more that they're providing this attack surface for the emotionally
immature, the narcissistic person.
more , that person will then take the information from the pathologically kind.
And then it's as if subconsciously they know, I know what to do with this.
I need to take the one up position here.
And so I'm going to disagree with them.
I'm going to tell them that really isn't how it worked.
I'm going to question their memory and all these things that
are just happening in real time.
, the more that the more.
Emotionally mature person tries to improve the relationship.
Then the more that, that emotionally immature person or we're talking
full blown, Narcisse actually takes whatever their partner says
and runs it through their own.
I don't know, manipulation machine.
You hand them your thoughts and then they say, thank you very much.
This is the food.
This is the energy that I need.
To know that I exist now, watch me work.
Why should we take your vulnerabilities?
Watch me take your insecurities and make them seem insignificant.
And then even use them against you at some point down the
road when I'm really hurting.
Which is why this relationship dance is so difficult.
Am I dealing with an emotionally immature person and interacting with
them helps me learn more about myself.
And there's some positive movement in the relationship.
Or is my visceral or gut reactions sending me signals loud and clear.
Hello, anxiety.
Hello, chronic pain, tummy troubles.
I know, I know, but I think they might not actually be that bad to deal with.
Now that I have this new information only to find two minutes later walking back
out of a conversation with your partner, thinking what the heck just happened.
Or I'm now my heart rate's elevated or go back to that frontier pie
story where I'm going to lose the contents of whatever I ate.
But that's where in that moment, you're even thinking, I don't even
know what was even said, but before I knew it, I was offering him a hug.
I was apologizing helping them plan a weekend getaway with their friend.
And I believe I just committed to watching our kids, his friends, kids,
some neighbor kid who just walked by.
I'm watching him too.
So anyway, if you are listening to this, you know, that the struggle is
real, whether it's the struggle of waking up to the narcissism or the
emotional immaturity of your partner or your family, your boss, your church,
or waking up to the narcissism or emotional immaturity of yourself.
And that is why information is powerful.
It can help change the way that you show up for you in a relationship, or it can
help you learn how to have the tools to feel good about doing everything you
could do before you make that choice to leave an unhealthy relationship.
Which has the potential to positively change the dynamic in
your family system for generations to come because we basically meet.
And get together with somebody who is somewhat , similarly
differentiated as we are.
Somebody who's experienced a similar form of trauma of life experience.
If you listen to my episode, a couple of weeks ago, I talked about the
similar origin story of the emotionally immature and the pathologically kind.
It's just at some point there was a fork in the road.
That the two parted ways only to find each other again, in the glory of their
attachment wounds and insecurities.
And because of that, I really do believe that in the best case scenario, with
the right tools self-reflection and eventual vulnerability, we can heal
within our relationships after all.
It's not just the emotionally mature that needs another human to interact with.
To know that they exist.
It's all of us for a time.
But the hope is that as one becomes more emotionally intelligent,
more emotionally mature.
That they'll move away from that need for another person.
Find themselves and then choose to be with another person.
Who is now also similarly differentiated and has already chosen themselves as well.
And now the two of you are choosing to be together, not trying to manage each
other's emotions or manipulate each other.
Or not trying to just take this one up position.
And is now having an amazing, beautiful, shared experience of life.
What was it that I prepared for and I didn't get to in the Stephen Craig show.
Actually before that, let me do this.
Let me insert a commercial for, the work I'm doing.
If you're interested in improving yourself, your relationships
please reach out to me right away.
The, you know, the time is near for the updated release of my magnetic marriage
course or get on the waiting list today.
And if you like what I share, if you are familiar with the content that I
create, and it does resonate with you.
And you need help.
I might be able to help.
I know that navigating relationships and how you show up in them.
And the relationship itself is very difficult.
And quite frankly, navigating your own reactions and your own
emotions are tricky as well.
And I really am noticing more and more.
This isn't a stage to add, but it's something I'm just really noticing that
go into the wrong coach or the wrong therapist can actually make things worse.
I recently talked to somebody who's dealing with some relationship
trauma, some complex post traumatic stress disorder, working hard, and
self-soothing putting some distance from their partner in hopes of
calming their central nervous system.
And they told me that.
They had not too long ago, gone to a couples coach who was all about
hugging it out, expressing admiration for each other, letting each other
know we're going to get through this.
Which the emotionally immature partner was on board with, they ate it up.
But this person said I was literally being asked to betray my own body,
my own self, and I was pressured to do so in front of the person
who will now, no doubt weaponize that at some point in the future.
You didn't do what our coach said to do.
I was willing.
So reach out to me and let me know your story.
And I might have some availability depending on the situation scheduling.
And of course there's a cost to, to get help.
But I would also like to answer your questions or maybe give some, we'll call
it advice from all that I can learn from an email, but if you really do want to
share your story, and I think it can be therapeutic to share that as well.
But let me know.
And I also have my private women's Facebook group, my new
men's emotional architects group, helping men become more emotionally
mature, consistent, and confident.
Okay.
So here's the info that I did not get to in the Steph and Craig show because
of the wonderful flow in that interview.
But I prepared a narrative and it was describing how three
different types of people would show up in a particular situation.
Because I believe when they initially inquired, they were asking me about.
The difference between narcissists and emotionally immature people.
Then I added a third person in there and that is the person
suffering from nice guy syndrome.
And the similarities I think are they're fascinating, but then the differences
are slight in some cases, but those differences can make a huge difference in
how one interacts with these individuals or how it shows up what it looks like.
Out in the real world.
So a narcissist and emotionally immature person and a nice guy.
Walk into a bar.
We're not a bar actually.
You kind of can't resist that the same way.
If you get a cadence going of something, something, and something like lions,
tigers, and bears, hopefully when you're listening, you just said, oh my.
But a narcissist and emotionally mature person and a nice guy.
They're actually the same person and just, we're going to call that person, Mike.
And he and his wife, Sarah just arrived in New York city for the anniversary trip.
And they'd never been to the city before and they're trying to
find their way to their hotel and it is in downtown Manhattan and
they're coming from the airport.
. But with the bustling streets, the towering buildings, everything
feels a little bit overwhelming.
So here's how that scenario might play out with these
different husband personalities.
Nice guy syndrome, mic.
In this scenario, Mike is visibly anxious as they exit the taxi.
Oh, no, I think I gave the driver the wrong address.
I am so sorry, Sarah, let me ask the person for directions.
And he approaches the passer by eight.
Excuse me.
I am so sorry to bug you, but is there any chance you could help us?
It's our anniversary.
I really don't want to ruin it by getting us lost.
So then after getting directions, then Mike turns to Sarah,
Hey, is this okay with you?
Are you cool?
Uh, I don't know if I asked somebody else as well.
Cause I'm really not that sure of what to do from here.
I mean, or do you just want to figure it out or do you just want to start walking?
I dunno what would make you happy?
So that is nice guy syndrome, Mike.
Emotionally immature, Mike Mike confidently.
We'd Sarah down the street.
Hey, I've totally got this.
It's a, it's just a few blocks away.
And after walking for about 20 minutes, then emotionally immature,
Mike realizes they're lost, but he is not about to admit it.
I don't even know if he'll admit to himself that they're lost.
But he starts to feel uncomfortable.
So when Sarah starts to notice this discomfort.
And then says, Hey , should we check the map?
Here's where emotionally immature Mike snaps.
Why don't you trust me?
Like, I can figure this out.
This is a.
It's easy.
It's just another city.
So then a few minutes later when he realizes, oh my gosh, we're late.
We're gonna miss check-in time.
We're going to dinner reservations.
Then he slumps up against the wall and he's like, man, I am such an idiot.
I can't even find her hotel.
You know, you probably wish you married somebody smarter.
That's where emotionally immature Mike is wanting her to then go from this place
of just trust me to then now comfort me.
And then we have narcissistic mic, Mike strides purposely down the street.
He's ignoring Sarah suggestions to check out the map.
And after walking in circles for about an hour, they end up.
Back where they started.
Mike's declare C told you I'd bring us right here.
This is exactly where I want us to be, because I just thought it would be smart.
First.
I want to go on a tour of the neighborhood.
And actually you didn't really say much about that.
And I think you should be thanking me because look where I got us
right back to where we were.
Those are some really good navigation skills.
Matter of fact, you know, that I have a keen sense of direction.
If you seem upset, it's not my fault that you didn't understand
my plan from the beginning.
And let me just pause for a minute, because there was some episodes in
the past where I'll share what a healthy version of some, something
relationship related will look like.
And admittedly, I will have a little bit of fun with it.
Then the, the perfect scene will eventually be interrupted by a sudden
appearance of a rainbow and wait, is that a, I can just make it out.
I'll be darn if that's not a unicorn horn and that's that the lucky terms
guy only, I don't think he's a.
I know you slept in a bag of sugary glycaemic coma, inducing marshmallows.
Oh, no.
That is a pot of gold.
So while I'm attempting to use humor, because I really do feel sad when
I think about people who spend so much time questioning themselves and
their role and negative relationship dynamics when they happen to be in
relationships with the truly immature.
If you've been in relationships with nice guys, emotionally
immature partners or narcissists.
Oh, my, the idea of a confident, grounded partner who communicates
clearly and values your input might seem like a fantasy.
For a lot of people, The healthy relationships in general,
it might just seem rare.
Unbelievable.
And just as unbelievable as those mythical creatures, like the
unicorn and the lucky terms guy.
So many of you have become accustomed to the dysfunction.
At that functionality in a relationship just appears too good to be true.
And I get that.
I can sense that when I'm talking to somebody and I've noticed that
when I've laid out what the four pillars of a connected conversation
would look like in real life, where I think the person is saying in that
in their mind, Where's the unicorn.
And am I having this conversation with the leprechaun?
And when do I get the gold?
Because it does seem too good to be true, especially if you've never seen
it experienced that, or definitely didn't see a model than your childhood.
It's like , when one is eating prison food for a long time and they
first step on the outside and if they first place they go is a burger king,
suddenly they're like, oh my gosh.
I want to get this king of burgers.
I want to compliment them on this.
This incredible creation.
That genuinely is a Whopper.
If I do say so myself.
Please pass along my compliments to the sous chef on how he made
these fries out of chicken.
I can only imagine that he must have studied at the Sorbonne.
But, um, I'm here to tell you that these healthy dynamics do exist.
They're not a myth and they're not reserved for other people.
. I want to share more of these examples, not just to taunt
somebody with an impossible dream, but to show you what's possible.
Because when I go down my list of things to do, to be healthy and interacting with
somebody who was emotionally immature to figure out your self and how you show up.
My first one is raise your emotional baseline.
That self care is not selfish.
If anybody's new here, then number two is get your PhD in gaslighting.
Number three is getting out of unproductive conversations.
Four is setting boundaries and know that a boundary is going to be a
challenge to the narcissist or the emotional immature in your life.
And then a side note there that learned the difference between
a boundary and an ultimatum.
The ultimatum is you need to stop doing that because the narcissist
is oh, thank you for showing me what I need to do more of than if
I want to manipulate or control.
But the boundary is, if you do this, then I will fill in the blank, leave.
Those sorts of things.
And then the last one is you'll never give that person the aha moment or the
epiphany that needs to come from them.
And I feel like today is turning out to be a little bit of a popery of just a
lot of things that have been on my mind.
In that world of I'll never give them the aha moment or the epiphany.
If you've caught some of the.
The vibes on waking up to narcism or on the virtual couch around.
Differentiation of being able to learn about yourself in a relationship to be
able to hold onto your self while trying to develop this connection with another
person, then there is a version where once you know that you've set the boundary.
And you know that you're not trying to get this person to have the
aha moment that it can be okay.
And we'll check in with your body, your central nervous system, because
it's keeping the score, but it's okay then to bring things up or say things
because they're the right things to say.
If if Hey stop yelling at the kids, if you know , you are operating from a
place from integrity and that you would feel like you were betraying yourself.
If you weren't saying those things.
Then right now, I just want to bring a little bit of awareness to that.
So if I realize, okay.
I've set the boundary.
If you yell at the kids, then we're gonna, we're gonna take off.
We're gonna spend some time away from the home.
And then you're not saying that.
I, Hey, I need you to stop yelling at the kids because you're trying to manipulate
course control or just get validation, but it's the right thing to say.
Then I just wanna bring a little bit of awareness to that.
We're going to start looking at what does that look like if you are.
If you are in a position where you can, self-soothe where you don't
need somebody else to tell you.
It's okay.
That you are starting to feel like you're okay.
Then you'll probably find yourself wanting to express things and you'll
be aware cause I've worked with plenty of people who get to this
point and they say, is this okay?
But they're aware that they want to still express themselves because that's
something that they haven't done.
And the fact that they haven't done that at times, they have felt like
they've been betraying themselves, or they might've felt like they've
been not showing a good example for their kids or for those around them.
. It takes a lot of work to get to that place where . You can self-sooth or you
can calm yourself down where you aren't doing this from a place of needing
validation, needing him to understand.
I need to do this because it's the right thing to do.
But I do slightly digress there.
, I'm sharing these examples, not to just say, Hey, here's something you've
never had, but that goes back to that.
That first concept that I talked about with raising your emotional baseline.
Self care doesn't have to mean getting a Manny petty, running a
marathon or anything like that.
Although those are great.
But it can just be starting to be aware, starting to hope, starting
to dream, starting to recognize, starting to practice some things in
situations where people are safe, where you're able to express yourself.
Because , there's such a, . Empowering feeling when you start to have the tools,
but then I know it can be, it can feel frustrating when you try to use them.
In the same situations and they're not being accepted or
they're not being met well.
Once you, you can see the difference in the way that a healthy
relationship even would look or sound.
I think you can really start to believe in the possibility of you being in
better relationships, whether it is.
Fixing working on your current relationship.
Or that I actually deserve to be in a relationship where
I feel heard and understood.
And there's curiosity, such a big one.
, that belief is the first step toward creating change in your life.
So yes, a healthy relationship may appear as rare as a unicorn.
But remember just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean
necessarily that it doesn't exist.
It's out there, it's in with awareness and work and the right partner showing up.
Or if you are showing up in the best version of you kind of way,
It's something that you can get to as well, something you can achieve.
So here we go.
I am introducing to you for the first time ever.
Something that I believe I will continue to call.
The magic connection.
And I'm not talking about pulling rabbits out of hats.
But what I want to describe might seem as unbelievable.
If you've never experienced because the magic.
Stands for.
Mature.
Authentic grounded, intimate and compassionate.
Because that is the kind of relationship that might seem as rare as finding
the unicorn in your backyard.
But this is the one that I want to show more examples of and it
goes back to why is it important?
'cause you can't really aim for something that you don't know exists.
If you've ever seen or experienced a healthy relationship, you might not
realize what it is that it looks like.
And it's that classic.
You don't know what you don't know situation, and I'm not saying that
just because you're now aware of what this magic connection looks like.
Again, that's mature, authentic, grounded, and to make compassionate.
It's I know that you will not all of a sudden have one.
It's not that simple.
Because you'll most likely have to implement these qualities.
On yourself, it treating yourself with those same characteristics.
But it's understanding what's possible because that does allow
you to dream bigger for yourself.
Helps you recognize when something isn't necessarily working.
Almost gives you this north star to navigate toward.
And hopefully it reminds you you're deserving of a relationship.
This mature.
Authentic grounded, intimate.
And compassionate.
So without further ado, We'll go back to the situation, Mike grounded, Mike.
And now let me introduce you to magic.
I'm just now realizing that is already taken.
The name of magic Mike.
Anyway, this is the magic version of the Mike that we talked about earlier.
They exit the taxi.
Mike takes a moment to orient himself, pulls out the map and his
phone turns to Sarah with a calm.
, grounded smile.
All right, let's get her bearings.
According to the mapper, hotels should be about 10 blocks north.
Three blocks east from here.
I'm pretty sure I can navigate us there, but I would love it if
we could work together on this.
Are you okay?
Maybe keeping an eye out for street signs, I'll focus on the overall direction.
And Sarah's fine.
She nods in agreement.
They start walking a few blocks in Mike realizes he has taken a wrong turn.
It's like, Hey, I think I might've missed a turn back there, but no worries.
Let's go backtrack and we can reassess.
Calm.
Be grounded.
Safe.
He calmly consults the map . Cross-referencing with this phone's GPS.
, okay, I got it.
I see totally where I went wrong and it's actually quicker than if
we cut through this street here.
Are you okay with that?
Are you comfortable with that route?
Cause I know this is new.
It seems like a little bit sketchy.
Or would you prefer if we stick to the main roads?
And as they continue walking, Mike remains attentive to the surroundings.
And he's checking in with Sarah.
And her comfort level not in an anxiously attached way.
So I was like, Hey, how are you holding up with the walk?
If you're getting tired or anything, we can always grab a
taxi for the rest of the way.
I am good.
I'm fine to continue.
But if you would rather grab a taxi, I am so on board with that.
And when they finally reached their hotel, Mike turns to Sarah with a warm smile.
Hey, that was an adventure.
I appreciate your patience.
Thanks for help navigating.
I'm glad we were able to figure it out together.
Let's go get checked in and start enjoying our anniversary trip.
I'm looking forward to exploring the city with you.
. And that's where the unicorn comes out.
But in that scenario, Mike demonstrates confidence in his abilities
without being arrogant, openness to collaboration, valuing Sarah's input,
calm problem solving when faced with a setback, calm that grounded
response, clear communication about his thoughts and plans consideration
for her comfort and preferences.
Now, again, he's putting it out there and it is at that point up to Sarah.
To say, yeah, I'm kind of exhausted.
I think I'd like to take a taxi.
He has made that bid or that offer.
The ability to admit and correct mistakes, and it can literally sound
that easy without self-deprecation.
Maintaining a positive attitude through the challenge expressing appreciation
for her role in the shared experience, because I think that version shows
emotional maturity, strong self-awareness healthy relationship dynamics.
And he was in a position where he was able to confidently.
Help Problem-solve and this new situation.
That is what I would love to bring more awareness to this.
This magical version is magic, mature, authentic, grounded,
intimate, and compassionate.
Let's break down the nice guy syndrome, emotional maturity,
and and also narcissism.
. So the person with nice guy syndrome tries too hard to follow.
Everybody's directions and ensure that everybody is happy and nobody's mad at
them and they haven't put anybody out.
The emotionally immature person reacts, randomly and insist that they can figure
out how to get where they're going, even though their partner has the mapper.
If they have to ask their partner to look at the map, they worried
that their partner won't think that they are worthy of staying together.
They react emotionally and impulsively and especially, especially to criticism.
Because one minute they think that they know where they're
going and everything is okay.
Life's fantastic.
And I think in that moment, they really do feel that way.
The next, and it can be that quick.
And I think that's part of that emotional whiplash that happens in the relationship
because of the emotional inconsistency.
They realize all of a sudden they don't know where they are and they
immediately get down on themselves.
, they're afraid to say.
Oh, my bad.
I I thought I knew where we're going now.
I don't.
I mean as a person with no really good sense of direction.
I have embraced it.
It's okay.
To not know it goes back to, we don't know what we don't know
and , why should we be expected?
To be perfect and everything that we do, especially where we're going.
Thank you, GPS devices.
But then the narcissist simply insists.
They know the way, and they refuse to ask for help and wherever
they went was precisely where they thought they were going.
And no, you heard them wrong.
This was exactly where they said that they were going the entire time.
And now they're pretty frustrated that you even doubted them.
And now they can tell you how you never support them and how this was
once again, a time where they were.
Right.
And you were wrong.
So they were really like for you to apologize.
And actually that didn't sound like sincere enough of an apology.
So let's go through the differences narcism.
Again, narcissism is a personality trait.
It is a personality story is characterized by an excessive need for admiration
and inflated sense of self-importance a lack of empathy for others.
And people with narcissistic personality disorder or strong narcissistic traits and
tendencies often believe they're superior to others and they expect constant praise.
It is, . Something that they are deserving of in their mind.
And they have difficulty accepting criticism.
And they might exploit other people for their own personal gain and they
struggle to recognize or respect other people's feelings and needs.
If we take a look at emotional immaturity, now that starts to refer to
a person's inability to handle emotions.
Emotional immaturity, right?
Emotions in an age, appropriate manner, emotionally mature people.
They struggle with self regulation.
They have difficulty.
I mean, if you look at it like that processing complex emotions
and like a younger person.
A little ten-year-old kid and they might react impulsively
or inappropriately to stress.
They don't like to sit with that discomfort.
And if they take ownership with things, they feel like then that you are
going to go all or nothing on them.
They are all bad.
You think you are all good.
And now that means you're going to leave them.
They have a real hard time.
Taking responsibility for their actions.
And so it's really easy to blame others for their problems.
Wasn't me.
It was somebody else and they made me do that.
I never said that.
And you know, that drill and the nice guy syndrome, it
really is a pattern of behavior.
And it's typically associated with men where they believe that being kind and
considerate and helpful will lead to.
Validation appreciation and really it's heavily tied into,
shall we say romantic successes?
But what nice guy is.
Don't even recognize is that they often have these hidden
expectations, these covert contracts.
So then they will become resentful when their efforts don't
result in the desired outcome.
Be at the romantic success or just validation.
They may be out there slaying the dragon all day and then be really upset
that people are outside by the pool.
Or they have a really nice house and people don't just every
day that the dad comes home.
They don't say, man, dad, thanks to you.
And your hard work, we now have an easy.
But here's the thing though with nice guy syndrome.
And I think that this is where you see that tying in a little
bit to emotional maturity, but they struggle with assertiveness.
They have difficulty expressing their true feelings and now can put other's needs
before their own, to an unhealthy degree.
But so wild about that is that will then manifest as.
A narcissistic trader tendency because when they are putting themselves.
And this nice guy.
Scenario, this nice guy situation.
They are anticipating or expecting that people should just know people
should just appreciate them and people should just desire them.
But they're afraid that if they put that out there that then
they will seem needy or clingy.
And there's also a big fear of rejection.
So while all three people are going to encounter relationship
difficulties, those underlying issues, that, and the behaviors.
I think they, they vary pretty considerably.
So, let me just provide some additional examples, different contexts, things
around finances, or maybe parenting.
And I am once again, I want to own the fact that I am currently going
with the husband and the role of the narcissist or the more emotionally
mature and the wife as the.
The less or the more emotionally mature, still emotionally immature to a point.
That's why they're together.
And most likely the more pathologically kind.
Let me give a scenario.
These are based off of real scenarios, but one about finances.
This one can be really difficult.
So when confronted with the need to discuss financial struggles or
difficulties with his wife, Uh, narcissistic husband might approach
the situation, kind of like this.
He might just say, look, I've been managing.
Look, I've been managing our finances perfectly for years.
So it's not my fault that we're in the financial situation.
We are.
The economy's terrible.
My boss doesn't appreciate my talents enough to pay me what I deserve.
And you need to understand that I'm doing my best and you should actually
be very grateful for everything that I provide for this family.
So from now on, I think you're going to need to cut back on your spending because
I'm noticing your shopping habits there.
The real problem.
So in that example, the narcissistic husband deflects
blame onto external factors.
Like everything from the, the economy, his boss.
But also on his wife and then he exaggerates his own
abilities and importance.
I'm not being paid.
What I deserve.
She has a lack of empathy for his wife's feelings or perspective.
Cause he can't even hear it.
And then fails to take responsibility for his role in the financial issues.
There was no.
Here's what I can do differently.
So now in this scenario, it's a little bit different when we bring
up the emotionally immature husband.
Because again, these are based pretty loosely off of some real examples.
But in this one, the husband was the one that was taking care of the finances.
But we later, as we kind of process through things, it was because
he was afraid to be open and vulnerable about not being very good.
With financial matters.
And so trying to hide the spinning that he was doing, as well as the
fact that he just wasn't willing to be open about the dire straits
that they were in financially.
So in that one, he's saying he finally needs to do something to talk to his
wife and he says, Hey, I don't even want to talk about this right now, honestly.
And a.
And I'm the one that's doing the bills.
I'm the one that takes care of all the money.
And I'm the one that has the higher paying job.
So honestly this whole thing isn't fair.
But, and I'm already, I know you're going to criticize me.
Because I've heard it before, but you know what?
We're behind on some bills, but it's not a big deal.
And I need you to start taking care of this, but but I think what we first
need to do is maybe we need to cut back on some spending, but there's a lot of
things that I need to spend money on.
You, if you can tell me what you're going to spend, then I think that's
going to be a lot better, but right now, I don't even need you to say a
word and I'm just going to go with my friends and let's deal with this later.
I mean, there's so much there.
That the emotionally immature person tends to gravitate toward.
They avoid the difficult conversation and they react defensively almost
proactively and defensively.
And anticipates that he's going to be in trouble, accuses his
wife of nagging, downplays the seriousness of the situation.
But once again, fails to take any responsibility or
really even offer solutions.
And then is going to escape.
And it's interesting when you will see people that will say, I'm going to text
you this, but I don't, you, I don't want you to even say anything back.
It's because I want to be able to alleviate my discomfort and
say this thing, but I don't want any returned discomfort.
And then the nice guy syndrome example and that one the husband
might approach it this way.
Just kinda like, Hey honey, I've been meaning to talk to you about something.
I know you've been wanting to renovate the kitchen and I feel
terrible cause we're actually a little bit behind on some bills and I.
I didn't really want to bother you with it.
I didn't want you to worry about it.
So I've been trying to handle it on my own.
And I've been working extra hours.
I'm trying to cut back on my expenses to try to fix things.
Because I really thought I could.
I don't know, make things better.
And I thought it was better for me to keep this from you, but I realize now,
Probably wasn't the right thing to do.
And I'm so sorry, because I've let you down.
So he's already avoided.
Conflict by hiding financial problems.
Now, here we are, puts his wife's desires like this kitchen renovation
ahead of financial stability.
So instead of saying, I don't think we can afford to do the kitchen renovation.
Because if he does and he sees his wife's disappointment, then
he just says, no, you want it?
I'll figure it out.
And then he tries to solve the problem alone without involving his partner.
I see that so many times, and that creates just a lot of financial struggles
and issues where then the guy is moving money around and maybe credit card to
credit card or whatever that looks like.
Because he just doesn't want to deal with it because he's, so it feels so much,
the successive guilt or the self-blame.
And then he wants approval and forgiveness.
Once validation rather than just saying, okay, I have to put my big boy pants on.
Focused on solutions.
So in all three of those cases the husband's approaches are problematic
and they're not going to lead to any productive resolution of
the financial issues for sure.
And this is where the.
Cue the sappy music and the cliches come next.
But a healthier approach would be to involve open, honest communication, shared
responsibility, collaborative effort.
And I know that that can be difficult when we don't really
even know what that looks like.
And self-regulation, I think that's one of the biggest keys is that one
of the things that people want to know that they can do on a day-to-day
basis, what's their homework.
And it really is working on self-regulation.
And I'll take you back in the time machine because we go back to childhood.
W what's difficult about that is self-regulation, it's the
ability to manage your thoughts, your emotions and behaviors.
In a way that is, I want to say like age appropriate to the situation.
And more in alignment with your goals, your values are who you
really know yourself to be.
Because the, and well, I'll get to that origin story and just a second.
But It's if you think of it that way though, it's like learning
how to manage my own thoughts.
I'm not saying stop them, control them, but manage my own
thoughts, emotions and behaviors.
That are pretty appropriate with the situation.
They wouldn't seem that out of the ordinary, when somebody
says, Hey, I forgot to pick up.
I don't know, soap on the way home.
And then your spouse loses their mind about it.
Self-regulation is going to take recognizing and
understanding your own emotions.
And remember that our emotions were not very welcome.
Most likely if you're even listening to this podcast and your childhood.
Because even a well-meaning parent probably did a lot of,
Hey, don't worry about it.
It's not a big deal.
Don't think that way don't feel that way.
Just stop crying, rub a little dirt in it.
Or what did you do that was part of the problem?
So we learned that instead of externalizing our emotions,
we internalize them.
And now we need somebody else to tell us that it's okay.
So our emotions are foreign.
They are not welcome when they come.
We have really.
I have a very silly looking cry face that I need to work on because I'm contorting
my face muscles in so many different ways.
I didn't even know existed.
And it's because I'm trying so hard not to do something like that.
I have to tell you, I was playing with some artificial intelligence
headshots the other day.
And I had this app and I needed to find eight selfies.
So I don't know what this means, but I didn't have a selfies in my 20 year.
I don't know how many tens of thousands of pictures.
Camera roll.
So I'm going through and I'm scrolling through pictures and
I need to be able to find them.
And I never did, but as I got to about two and a half, three years ago, And
I stumbled upon the, a lot of video.
And a lot of big emotions and feelings around the time when my daughter,
Alex got in a near fatal car wreck.
And what really got me was my son was playing his senior year of basketball.
And he was about to set a.
High school or a school scoring record.
And playing at a gym that was foreign.
And at this point, And, they're chanting against them, which he's used to.
But here's a guy , who was really close to a sister who almost
died and he had her name written on a thing of tape on his arm.
And I, I started balling.
It came out of nowhere.
'cause I just remember that game and I felt like it was too much
for anybody to handle because the crowd was chanting against them.
They were double teaming him to stop him from getting this scoring record.
There was a ref that we ran into during the summer often who I
think wasn't a big fan of my son.
And so I just felt like the world was conspiring against them.
And I could see on his wrist, this tape that had his thought.
That , my daughter, his sister's name on it.
And she's meanwhile, in an ICU a couple of states away.
And I lost it.
But I thought about this concept of emotions.
And I just, I was in my closet studio and our home in Arizona.
And I just allowed myself to just let it go.
And I only mentioned the closet studio thing because I do think it was because
I felt a little bit safe and that I was isolated and alone, and there
were sound dampening equipment there.
But I just let myself go.
And I found myself still wanting to hold back and not let myself
feel all the feelings and I did, and I let them come in.
And it was, first of all, it wasn't, as long as I thought it would be.
I think there's all the habits.
One of those would be well.
Yeah, but what if I, I do this forever and I can never regain composure
and that's an adorable story.
My brains, trying to tell me to keep me away from this uncomfortable feeling.
And that uncertainty of what is going to happen, but it was very cleansing.
It really was.
And And then add kicked in and I never finished and found any other pictures.
And then I went on about my day.
No, no AI headshots.
But we're back to that recognizing and understanding your emotions
and trying to bring gentle awareness around your impulses or
the need to delay gratification.
Because , when we're trying to push down our emotions, it's uncomfortable.
And what do we do with our discomfort?
People often turn to.
Unhealthy coping mechanisms.
That's where impulsive behaviors happen often.
And so learning to sit with that discomfort and feel the feelings is
amazing when it can be done, but it's not something that's going to come natural.
And then learning, from a self-regulation standpoint to, to
read the room a bit in a positive way, not saying don't be authentic.
But Hey, there's forgot to bring the soap home.
We'll be okay.
Because that helps you maintain focus, maybe motivation toward long-term goals
or values, value based goals of compassion or consistency, things like that.
But I was love a good childhood story or origin story.
So these self-regulation skills, I think they really develop.
In childhood because of a number of things.
One is parent modeling.
Because kids learn by observing how their parents handle emotions
and challenges, they're mapping their parents' relationship.
And then and disciplines that interesting word it's starting, I think, to take
on a pretty negative connotation but if I say consistent discipline or clear,
consistent boundaries, Then what help kids understand expectations and consequences.
So I'm not talking about physical, but I'm talking about
clear, consistent boundaries.
Hey, if you don't do this, then this won't happen.
Now I was horrible at those.
So this is not me saying like I did with my family.
This is something that the nice guy in me, the emotional immature person in
me just wanted to make everybody happy.
So I will do everything all the time.
And as long as everybody's good, then I'm good.
And I think that I, you almost want to call it emotional coaching.
Helping a parent learn to help their kids identify and talk about their
feelings, just acknowledge them.
How are you feeling?
Not, I bet you're feeling sad because if the kids like not
really kind of more frustrated.
Learn to help your kids identify and talk about their feelings.
And that will lead to more emotional intelligence.
And then this concept of a secure attachment, a, you know, a strong,
supportive relationship with your caregiver provides a safe base
for exploring your own emotions.
If I'm not having to manage.
My parents' emotions, then I can tap into mine and I still
won't even know what they are.
So that's where I actually need the parent to have their stuff together.
So they can then come in with curiosity and ask me the kid about my emotions.
And that's, self-regulation skills or we're heading toward it becoming
autonomous, allowing kids these age appropriate versions of independence
helps them practice decision-making and practice self control.
And.
We get more and more data around, the neurological piece of this, the
prefrontal cortex, which is so crucial for self-regulation where we tap
into the logical part of the brain.
That is developing like a champ and in early adult, even into early adulthood.
And then there's still the concept of neuroplasticity, but
I think it's so malleable young.
So when these factors, when these things are lacking, or if they're
interrupted through trauma or neglect or inconsistent parenting, then a
kid is going to struggle to develop.
Adequate self-regulation skills.
And I think that is one of the key leading indicators.
Of emotional immaturity and adulthood.
And let me talk about complex emotions, because I think
that's a difficult thing still.
If we're barely starting to figure out our own emotions now as an adult.
It's no wonder, because if we weren't allowed to feel our feelings or
acknowledged our emotions young, and now there's a lot of them.
Complex emotions are way more nuanced because they typically involve a nice
combo pack of two or more basic emotions, , so that does require a higher level
emotional intelligence to recognize.
And then what do I even do with them?
So here's some examples.
Ambivalence.
That's the concept of feeling two contradictory emotions
simultaneously, such as love and hate.
Toward the same person, person might be feeling ambivalent about a job offer.
Because they're experiencing both the excitement about the opportunity
could be cool, but also anxiety about the new responsibility.
What if I mess up.
Nostalgia.
I deal with so many people that really long, they have this longing,
a sentimental longing for the past.
And that.
And often be tense with both happiness and sadness.
I know if, I think back to my, my kids and when they were young,
man, what a time and, oh my gosh, how sad that, that time is over.
An example, there might be looking at family photos.
That, that could bring up nostalgia, bringing joy from happy memories, but
also sadness that those have passed.
And I got three, four years of high school and college German should
be a little bit shot in Florida.
If you're familiar with that concept.
A little bit.
It's interesting taking pleasure and somebody else's misfortune.
Feeling secretly pleased when a coworker who often brags about their
abilities, make some mistake during a presentation, that's a complex emotion.
And right now.
It's the desire is just to bring awareness to it.
Take a look at anticipation.
I mean, that's a mixture of.
Of excitement and anxiety about a future event.
Feeling both eager and nervous before a date or a job interview.
Jealousy.
Uh, complex boy, that is a complex web of emotions involving a fear of loss.
Of anger of not being validated, self doubt, imposter syndrome, you name it.
You know, when somebody feels jealous, when they see a partner laughing with
an attractive colleague, they might experience a whole mix of insecurities
and possessiveness and resentment.
Or think about the concept of something bittersweet you.
A combination of happiness and sadness.
Feeling bittersweet at a college graduation, proud of the achievement,
but oh my gosh, they're leaving.
I was talking with a friend recently who she was seeing
her daughter off to college.
And she was asking me if I remember what that was like and in my situation
and boy, talk about that was when I would just lose my emotional mind.
When we're hugging a kid and leaving them there as their freshman year of college.
And that's why all of a sudden I would get these feelings of oh man, did I
was I it's a cool vedana is I thought I was and, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
Did I do enough?
And it's, that's a me thing, but it's, it can be really difficult.
To get the concept of awe.
That's a mix of wonder and fear and respect.
A lot of times system.
In response to something.
Fast or powerful.
You don't remember flying over the green canyon at one point in an
airplane, looking down, just feeling simultaneously amazed by the beauty and
then almost like fearful of its immensity.
So understanding and managing these complex emotions that
requires emotional maturity and well-developed self-regulation skills.
And so people who struggle with emotional immaturity might find it
challenging to identify process, respond appropriately to all of
these kinds of emotional experiences.
I have, another concept I would love to share.
. So, we'll just imagine I dunno, we'll call her Tara and she
loves solving jigsaw puzzles.
So she starts working on a new thousand piece puzzle without
looking at the picture on the box.
And as she starts, she finds and connects a ton of these dark.
Almost somber pieces, the blacks, these grays on these deep blues.
So in our mind, Tara's thinking, okay, this must be like a nighttime scene.
, but it feels kind of gloomy.
And the more that she's working with these dark pieces.
And she's there for a while.
Cause it's such a big puzzle.
She starts to focus really just on that section.
And then she just gets this vibe, this feeling that the entire puzzle, it
must be dreary at this colorless image.
But as she continues, then she starts finding other pieces that have more
vibrant colors, more yellows and greens.
And maybe these cheerful colors of red.
So confused at first, she realizes, okay, these new pieces,
these connected the edges.
Of the dark section that she completed earlier.
And then now it's starting to be a completely different picture.
So the more the puzzle, the more that it comes together, she discovers
that the dark section she initially focused on is actually a little part.
It's pretty small, part of a much larger, more diverse image.
And then this completed puzzle actually shows this beautiful
landscape has a night sky.
But it's transitioning into this.
Colorful sunrise.
And it has flowers and trees and a shimmering lake.
So Tara realizes that if she had judged the entire puzzle, based
on that first dark section, she would have missed the whole beauty
and the complexity of that whole.
Image.
And this is because I've been trying.
Hard in my mind.
To really explain this concept of whole object relations.
And I think that analogy really illustrates it.
Because just as Tara needed to see all the parts of the puzzle
to appreciate the full picture.
Then I think we need to recognize all the aspects of a person, whether it's
ourselves, or we can even look at that with others to really try to understand
ourselves or others completely.
Because and this is piggybacking off of.
The complex emotions, because I think that understanding complex
emotions is related to this concept of whole object relations and this
other one called object constancy.
So I want to see if we can really make some sense of
this, a whole object relations.
It refers to this ability to perceive yourself and others.
As the complex multifaceted individuals.
With both.
Challenging and an adorable lovable qualities.
And it's, I think that's really crucial and understanding how we
form and we maintain relationships.
So then we've got object constancy and that's this
ability to maintain a positive, emotional connection to somebody.
While you're experiencing feelings or frustration and
anger, disappointment with them.
So it involves understanding that relationships and people can have
both challenging and wonderful.
Aspects without.
Necessarily needing.
To just focus on those negative aspects, it's natural or a bit normal to do that.
But often that's all that we're looking on.
So if I connect this to these complex emotions, we were just talking about
If you have this integration of positive and negative complex emotions.
They often involve that simultaneous experience of contradictory feelings.
So that aligns up with this concept of whole object relations, where
somebody can hold both positive and negative views of a person or a
situation concurrently at the same time.
And that's where you might feel proud of a friend success,
but also a little bit of MB.
That requires the ability to integrate these conflicting
emotions into a relationship.
So it's much like maintaining this whole object view of the friend.
And then if we want to talk a little bit about emotional resilience then,
which I think is something that we can discuss in more detail, maybe on a
future episode, this object constancy.
That's a concept that, that allows then for the.
This continuance or persistence of positive feelings.
Even in the face of disappointment or conflict.
So I think this is crucial for managing complex emotions in relationships.
Now, if you are in a abusive, toxic relationship, Then this
is not saying that, okay.
I need to see the good and the bad, and then maybe I do need to, but that's
to allow myself then to understand that I can see good and people.
But this bad part is not something that I feel safe with.
So let's say you're in a romantic relationship and one person might feel
frustrated with their partner's behavior.
But they still do acknowledge, love and affection overall.
So they're demonstrating both object constancy.
They can maintain that relationship and the ability to
handle these complex emotions.
But I think that.
Then it's this nuanced.
Version of emotional experiences is what eventually is part of
becoming more emotionally mature.
Because the development of this concept of whole object relations allows for
these more nuanced, emotional experiences.
So every person you interact with is not good or bad,
black or white all or nothing.
So that's why I think it's so important to try to lay this path out this.
This hallmark of complex emotion.
Give you an example.
The, that complex emotion I mentioned earlier of nostalgia requires the ability
to simultaneously hold positive memories.
And the sadness of their passing.
That is a nuance of you.
That is coming with a, developing a whole object relation of that
experience of whatever you're viewing.
And both whole object relations in this object, constancy, they
then part of this is if I'm aware of this is how emotions work.
I'm not even, we start from a place, so we don't even allow
our emotions to hang around.
But now they're here.
So what are we gonna do with them?
Because it turns out they're pretty big.
They can be scary.
They can also be kind of awesome.
okay, , what do I do?
Because I went from it wasn't a big deal now.
Now only it's a big deal, but boy, is it a big deal, but it's also kind of cool.
That can start to feel uncertain and here we go.
We want certainty so bad then.
You know what I'll deal with my emotions later.
Let's say go back to this example of jealousy.
A person with developed object constancy.
So they can regulate their reaction by remembering the overall
strength of their relationship.
Rather than being overwhelmed by the momentary insecurity.
Cause it's that in that moment that now all of a sudden.
The immature.
I need validation.
I need you to tell me where.
Okay.
I need you to.
To move away from that guy.
Cause I saw you actually look at him.
And that means you want to be with him.
It's this ability to see others as whole objects, . With complex
motivations and feelings, and that allows us for a deeper understanding.
Of the fact that we are all this just blend of so many different
feelings and emotions and experiences.
Of course I don't understand exactly what somebody else is going through.
I barely can figure out myself.
And that concept I mentioned earlier was shot in Frita.
Which is it's boy, that's the complexity of human nature that sometimes we can.
Have pleasure from others' misfortunes, even if we generally wish others.
Well, There's a paradox for you, ? Wrapping that part of
the development of whole object relations and this object constancy.
That I do think that's part of this foundation that is necessary
to understand, to be able to experience and understand and
manage your own complex emotions.
So they allow you to acknowledge and hold multiple, sometimes
conflicting feelings simultaneously.
That is emotional maturity.
And to maintain , a stable sense of self.
And others, even when you're experiencing we'll call it some emotional turbulence.
Because that's the capacity that you need to navigate the such tricky.
Uh, emotional landscapes of adult relationships and especially
in social interactions.
Because if people are struggling with these concepts, Oh, hope you
can see the path I'm laying out.
They will then resort to black or white thinking.
And or experience emotional instability in their relationships.
And that's why I think these things are so important to understand.
To be on your path to becoming more emotionally mature.
I hope that you got . Something how to today, although that is a me issue, but
I really do because I love this work.
I love the questions that people send in.
It can be frustrating, but then when things start to click and you start
to really understand something and you're having your own aha moment.
I know that that can feel pretty intoxicating.
And one of the ironic things is oftentimes we want to share that with
somebody in the person we want to share it with is the person that might
be doing a lot of the emotional harm.
Because we desperately want them to, we want to see the relationship
improve, and this is a person that we're used to going to for however long.
And now the fact that I'm hurting, but it's them, that's delivering the hurt.
It just could be really, really confusing, which I think is part of
understanding these complex emotions.
If this resonated with you, I hope you can send it to somebody.
If you've never taken a moment and written written in, feel free to do that.
Contact the Tony overbay.com or go through my website.
Or if you're open to it, I would love it.
If you would subscribe anywhere.
That you can, where you listen to podcast or go follow me at virtual
dot couch on Instagram or a virtual couch on Tik TOK, or you can find
the virtual couch podcast network.
The virtual couch channel on YouTube.
It really does mean a lot.
If you are open to rating, reviewing, subscribing, all those wonderful things.
Have an amazing week.
I would love your feedback and I will see you next time.
On waking up to narcissism,