WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.050 --> 00:00:07.380 The following is based on an all too true story. 00:00:07.380 --> 00:00:10.889 So picture this, you've got Farrah, she's sitting on her couch, she's scrolling 00:00:10.889 --> 00:00:14.530 through her phone for probably her hundredth time today, and her thumb 00:00:14.539 --> 00:00:16.999 hovers over the name Gil in her contacts. 00:00:17.350 --> 00:00:19.719 And she knows she shouldn't call him, she shouldn't text him, but 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:21.539 that urge is just overwhelming. 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:26.754 And it's been there for about three months since Gil abruptly ended, Their 00:00:26.754 --> 00:00:30.435 two year relationship, three months of emotional turmoil of questioning 00:00:30.445 --> 00:00:34.435 every single moment that they shared of wondering, was any of it real at all? 00:00:34.695 --> 00:00:36.795 Did he really care or what did I do wrong? 00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:40.720 Now, meanwhile, Gil seems to have moved on pretty effortlessly. 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:44.850 He's already in a new relationship that he is flaunting all over social media. 00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:47.600 So Farrah's friends keep telling her that she's better off without him. 00:00:47.630 --> 00:00:51.020 But why does she just keep wanting to go back to Gil? 00:00:51.590 --> 00:00:55.330 Now the more distance that she gets from the relationship, she does realize how 00:00:55.330 --> 00:00:57.130 surface level Gil's affection really was. 00:00:57.535 --> 00:01:00.355 He never really asked her questions, never asked her about her dreams 00:01:00.355 --> 00:01:02.035 or her hopes or fears or childhood. 00:01:02.355 --> 00:01:05.355 He was charming and he was attentive when it suited him. 00:01:05.985 --> 00:01:09.875 But then he was distant and he was cold when she needed more emotional support. 00:01:10.530 --> 00:01:13.950 And now that there's the breakup, he's done a complete discard and he's actually 00:01:13.950 --> 00:01:17.890 doing things that he said he would never do with Farrah with this new girl. 00:01:18.073 --> 00:01:22.043 Despite Farrah's growing awareness, she finds herself just starting 00:01:22.043 --> 00:01:23.793 to compose yet another text. 00:01:24.153 --> 00:01:26.693 And even with the help of her therapist, some of these texts don't 00:01:26.693 --> 00:01:29.343 get sent, some of them get sent to friends, some of them get deleted, 00:01:29.383 --> 00:01:30.863 but some of them she does send. 00:01:31.788 --> 00:01:33.168 So she says, I miss you. 00:01:33.538 --> 00:01:34.208 Can we talk? 00:01:34.628 --> 00:01:37.458 Then she deletes it, then she types it again, then she deletes it one more time. 00:01:37.928 --> 00:01:41.768 Because the rational part of her brain knows that Gill was not good for her. 00:01:42.138 --> 00:01:44.458 But her heart just aches for the connection. 00:01:44.898 --> 00:01:47.028 However toxic it might have been. 00:01:47.728 --> 00:01:50.863 And it's as if she just feels like she just needs to talk. 00:01:51.143 --> 00:01:55.573 To just interact with him in order to know that she matters or to try to be able to 00:01:55.573 --> 00:02:00.013 make sense of things, or she's looking for the cliched closure because her brain 00:02:00.013 --> 00:02:03.473 is desperately trying to say, if I can make sense of this, then I can move on. 00:02:04.083 --> 00:02:06.793 And she's taken an undue amount of blame herself. 00:02:06.813 --> 00:02:11.193 Again, the brain, how adorable, is saying that if it is my fault, then I can fix it. 00:02:11.558 --> 00:02:13.728 Because what if it's not my fault? 00:02:14.208 --> 00:02:15.728 What if it's more Gil's fault? 00:02:16.048 --> 00:02:18.888 Then does that mean that there was nothing I could have done? 00:02:19.348 --> 00:02:21.658 And that can start to feel pretty helpless. 00:02:22.498 --> 00:02:25.958 So then last week in a moment of weakness, Farrah calls Gil. 00:02:26.398 --> 00:02:29.668 And she's begging him to reconsider, to give their relationship another chance. 00:02:29.978 --> 00:02:32.128 And his response was cold, it was dismissive. 00:02:32.128 --> 00:02:34.418 He says, we're done, Farrah, move on. 00:02:35.058 --> 00:02:38.198 And those words really should have been the final nail in the 00:02:38.198 --> 00:02:39.388 coffin of their relationship. 00:02:39.728 --> 00:02:43.323 But instead They just made her longing more intense. 00:02:43.973 --> 00:02:45.773 They made her just think about him even more. 00:02:45.773 --> 00:02:48.763 So why is it so hard for Farrah to let go? 00:02:48.773 --> 00:02:51.373 Why does she keep reaching out to somebody who clearly treated her 00:02:51.653 --> 00:02:53.363 as an object rather than a person? 00:02:53.913 --> 00:02:56.493 Nobody should have to beg somebody to love them. 00:02:57.103 --> 00:02:59.753 And how can Gil move on so quickly while she's still stuck 00:02:59.753 --> 00:03:00.813 in this emotional quicksand? 00:03:01.713 --> 00:03:05.633 So today we're going to delve into the complex psychology behind toxic 00:03:05.633 --> 00:03:09.133 relationships, good old emotional immaturity, and the struggles of 00:03:09.133 --> 00:03:10.913 breaking free from unhealthy attachments. 00:03:11.353 --> 00:03:16.173 But more so, I want to introduce you to a concept of the false self, and why that's 00:03:16.173 --> 00:03:19.003 important to understand, whether you are the person who is waking up to your 00:03:19.003 --> 00:03:23.983 own emotional immaturity, even, dare I say, narcissistic traits and tendencies. 00:03:24.803 --> 00:03:28.563 Or if you're more of that pathologically kind person, or the highly sensitive 00:03:28.563 --> 00:03:33.373 person or shall we even go out on a limb today and say the more emotionally mature 00:03:33.373 --> 00:03:36.903 person in the relationship, and I know that I'm not saying that you're perfect, 00:03:37.003 --> 00:03:39.393 because I'm sure that that's what you would say if you were in my office, and I 00:03:39.393 --> 00:03:44.263 get that, but the person who's really been trying to figure out your relationship, 00:03:44.743 --> 00:03:47.153 , do you actually know who you are deeply? 00:03:47.653 --> 00:03:51.743 Or are you continually trying to be whoever everybody else needs you to be? 00:03:52.253 --> 00:03:55.293 And that might even be currently what feels like your superpower, 00:03:55.743 --> 00:03:56.793 but is it sustainable? 00:03:57.343 --> 00:03:59.753 Is it really unlocking your personal power? 00:04:00.343 --> 00:04:03.323 Are you continually feeling like you're not quite where you want to be or 00:04:03.323 --> 00:04:04.793 thought that you would be in your life? 00:04:05.363 --> 00:04:08.433 Are you starting to feel like you're just, whatever you do is not quite enough 00:04:08.463 --> 00:04:09.683 that people are taking advantage of you? 00:04:09.753 --> 00:04:13.753 Whenever you try to step back for a little bit of raising your emotional baseline, me 00:04:13.753 --> 00:04:16.323 time, it feels like the world falls apart. 00:04:16.463 --> 00:04:19.283 And now all of a sudden you've got to go back in and put out these fires. 00:04:20.088 --> 00:04:25.268 So the good news is that you are normal, you're human, and you are right where 00:04:25.268 --> 00:04:30.048 you need to be to start to learn more about how to find your true self. 00:04:30.718 --> 00:04:34.078 So in order to get to that true self, I think it's incredibly important to 00:04:34.078 --> 00:04:36.698 understand more about the false self. 00:04:37.143 --> 00:04:40.333 We're the place that we all originated from and trying to figure out who we are. 00:04:40.843 --> 00:04:45.123 We all got our sense of self from external validation growing up as kids. 00:04:45.523 --> 00:04:50.693 And for a lot of us, almost, I'd say most of us were still relying 00:04:50.693 --> 00:04:53.473 on that external validation to try to figure out who we are. 00:04:53.833 --> 00:04:56.043 And unfortunately, when you're in unhealthy relationships, you're 00:04:56.043 --> 00:05:00.053 handing that power or those buttons over to somebody that does not 00:05:00.063 --> 00:05:01.563 have your best interest in mind. 00:05:02.183 --> 00:05:04.773 The best person to be the best judge of you is you. 00:05:05.423 --> 00:05:08.603 So today we're going to explore some concepts that unfortunately are 00:05:08.603 --> 00:05:12.453 oldies, but goodies like intermittent reinforcement, AKA the trauma bond. 00:05:12.803 --> 00:05:16.583 And I really believe that in understanding more about the false self, you're going 00:05:16.583 --> 00:05:20.563 to start to understand how and why intelligent, capable people like Farrah 00:05:20.593 --> 00:05:24.668 or possibly like you can find themselves trapped in cycles of toxic love and 00:05:24.668 --> 00:05:29.018 toxic shame and what can eventually lead to feelings of regret and feelings of 00:05:29.018 --> 00:05:33.628 missed opportunities and the fear that life is just passing by so quickly. 00:05:34.233 --> 00:05:38.633 So, whether you're a pharaoh trying to break free from a gill, or maybe 00:05:38.633 --> 00:05:41.563 if you're a gill and you're kind of aware of what you're doing to Sarah, 00:05:41.893 --> 00:05:46.033 or if you're watching a friend that is either a gill or a pharaoh go through 00:05:46.033 --> 00:05:48.423 this struggle, this episode is for you. 00:05:48.683 --> 00:05:53.233 So let's unpack this psychology of toxic relationships and hopefully learn 00:05:53.233 --> 00:05:56.623 how to break free from their grip and move away from this false self and 00:05:56.623 --> 00:05:58.663 really start to figure out who are you? 00:05:58.973 --> 00:06:00.243 And what do you do from here? 00:06:01.133 --> 00:06:04.273 So welcome to episode 115 of waking up the narcissism. 00:06:04.573 --> 00:06:05.483 I am Tony overbay. 00:06:05.483 --> 00:06:05.913 I'm your host. 00:06:05.913 --> 00:06:07.513 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a 00:06:07.513 --> 00:06:08.843 certified mindful habit coach. 00:06:09.153 --> 00:06:11.263 And please sign up for my newsletter. 00:06:11.303 --> 00:06:12.463 That's all I'm asking today. 00:06:12.773 --> 00:06:13.053 Go to tonyoverbay. 00:06:13.713 --> 00:06:14.033 com. 00:06:14.033 --> 00:06:14.983 Sign up for the newsletter. 00:06:15.163 --> 00:06:17.753 . And so it's, they're chock full of a lot of good information. 00:06:18.053 --> 00:06:21.173 They might have a recap or two from an episode, but there's going 00:06:21.173 --> 00:06:23.763 to be some takeaways there that I think that you'll get a lot from. 00:06:23.763 --> 00:06:25.373 You can pass them along to friends, family. 00:06:25.673 --> 00:06:27.593 So sign up, go to Tony overbay. 00:06:27.633 --> 00:06:28.073 com. 00:06:28.363 --> 00:06:33.153 That would be a wonderful thing, but let's start with this concept of the false self. 00:06:33.473 --> 00:06:36.023 It's really central, I think, to understand the emotional 00:06:36.023 --> 00:06:39.623 immaturity and then the impact that that has on relationships. 00:06:40.098 --> 00:06:44.538 So this false self is basically it's the mask that we wear to fit in with others 00:06:44.558 --> 00:06:47.708 or to protect ourselves, and we often hear about that mask of the narcissist. 00:06:48.018 --> 00:06:50.958 So right now we're going to hopefully take away that judgment of the 00:06:50.958 --> 00:06:54.628 concept of the mask and just start from a place of there's a point at 00:06:54.628 --> 00:06:58.603 which, and maybe it's now, where we all put on a mask in different ways. 00:06:58.903 --> 00:07:02.503 Places, different situations when we're speaking with different people, maybe a 00:07:02.503 --> 00:07:07.913 work situation, a church situation when we're talking to our elderly grandparents 00:07:07.913 --> 00:07:10.793 or whoever that might be it's a way that we try to protect ourselves. 00:07:11.228 --> 00:07:14.508 And it's this version of us that we show to the world when we're trying to please 00:07:14.508 --> 00:07:16.688 people or really avoid getting hurt. 00:07:17.108 --> 00:07:19.018 You can kind of think of it like your public face. 00:07:19.078 --> 00:07:21.668 The one that you put on when you're at work or church or meeting new 00:07:21.678 --> 00:07:25.118 people, or maybe even with your spouse or your kids or your parents. 00:07:25.538 --> 00:07:28.648 And one of the questions I like to ask people when I'm working 00:07:28.648 --> 00:07:32.838 with them is, where or when do you actually feel the most authentic 00:07:32.858 --> 00:07:34.578 or feel like you are yourself? 00:07:34.791 --> 00:07:38.901 Too often the answer is, I'm not really quite sure who I am, or 00:07:38.901 --> 00:07:40.991 that answer is never and nowhere. 00:07:41.721 --> 00:07:43.741 And , I just want you to know you're not alone. 00:07:44.506 --> 00:07:49.536 But this false self, this idea comes from a guy named Donald Winnicott. 00:07:49.596 --> 00:07:52.286 He's a psychologist who worked with kids and families back in the day. 00:07:52.286 --> 00:07:54.536 He noticed that sometimes people, especially when they're growing 00:07:54.536 --> 00:07:57.426 up, create this false self to deal with the world around them. 00:07:57.816 --> 00:08:00.256 And here's the thing, the false self isn't all bad. 00:08:00.436 --> 00:08:02.206 It can help us navigate social situations. 00:08:02.766 --> 00:08:04.896 it can even protect you when you're starting to feel really vulnerable. 00:08:05.196 --> 00:08:08.316 But if we rely on it too much, we might lose touch with our true selves. 00:08:08.366 --> 00:08:12.126 The real us, that's underneath all of that pretending. 00:08:12.456 --> 00:08:16.746 And even if you don't really know who you are, if this is, if you're starting to 00:08:16.756 --> 00:08:21.491 have a tiny bit of an existential crisis right now, I want you to just, Step back 00:08:21.491 --> 00:08:24.731 for a moment and tap into even the things that you think about and dream about and 00:08:24.731 --> 00:08:29.741 hope about, because that is part of that desire that you have to figure out who you 00:08:29.741 --> 00:08:31.751 are and the things that you want to do. 00:08:31.751 --> 00:08:35.561 I think too often we give up on the concepts of dreaming altogether. 00:08:35.581 --> 00:08:38.461 and there's often these, themes, the therapy, and I 00:08:38.481 --> 00:08:39.891 swear the one last week was. 00:08:40.081 --> 00:08:42.811 Allowing ourselves to dream that I don't think that we do that enough. 00:08:42.841 --> 00:08:45.901 And I had someone talk about that when they're in the shower, when 00:08:45.901 --> 00:08:48.551 they're by themselves, that they interview themselves almost as if 00:08:48.601 --> 00:08:52.441 they were asked at any moment, their opinion on certain things in life. 00:08:52.441 --> 00:08:53.811 And they said, okay, is that weird? 00:08:53.941 --> 00:08:56.001 And I said, of course, it's not makes perfect sense. 00:08:56.001 --> 00:08:58.651 And the irony is that this person found themselves in a situation where 00:08:58.951 --> 00:09:00.491 they didn't get asked a question. 00:09:00.491 --> 00:09:03.301 And it happened to be a question that they had been. 00:09:03.671 --> 00:09:04.811 Practicing, so to speak. 00:09:05.101 --> 00:09:08.821 And so they just delivered on it and they said it was one of the highlights 00:09:08.821 --> 00:09:10.091 that they had had in a long time. 00:09:10.771 --> 00:09:13.881 But back to this false self, the problem is when the false self takes over 00:09:13.921 --> 00:09:17.441 and we forget who we really are, it's like we're always playing a character 00:09:17.511 --> 00:09:18.721 and we never get to be ourself. 00:09:18.731 --> 00:09:21.521 We have to figure out who I am, how do I show up in certain situations? 00:09:21.941 --> 00:09:26.521 But what that leads to is oftentimes a feeling of emptiness or leaving 00:09:26.521 --> 00:09:29.521 you feeling stressed out or like you're living somebody else's life. 00:09:30.161 --> 00:09:32.111 So the goal is to find a balance. 00:09:32.461 --> 00:09:35.181 we want to be able to adapt to all kinds of different situations, 00:09:35.541 --> 00:09:37.351 but also stay true to ourselves. 00:09:37.421 --> 00:09:39.691 So it's really about trying to figure out who you really are 00:09:40.001 --> 00:09:41.671 and being okay with that person. 00:09:41.721 --> 00:09:44.491 And I think that's one of the biggest challenges, because if we're looking to 00:09:44.491 --> 00:09:50.171 others to give us validation, then we're just at the whim of how they're feeling 00:09:50.181 --> 00:09:51.781 or the messages that they're sharing. 00:09:52.291 --> 00:09:54.791 As we start to develop our real self or start to figure out who we 00:09:54.791 --> 00:09:57.491 are, we're going to go interact with the world and people in the world 00:09:57.491 --> 00:10:00.141 are not necessarily going to say, Hey, you are showing up different. 00:10:00.171 --> 00:10:00.951 I think that's awesome. 00:10:00.991 --> 00:10:02.951 They might say, Hey, what's with the new glasses 00:10:03.041 --> 00:10:05.231 You think that sure it looks good when you're walking around in public. 00:10:05.731 --> 00:10:09.921 So we have to start to learn how to really be okay with that person who we are. 00:10:10.331 --> 00:10:13.451 Even if we're not perfect and yes, there will be times or occasions when 00:10:13.451 --> 00:10:18.031 you still might find yourself acting or reacting differently, still reaching for 00:10:18.031 --> 00:10:19.491 that mass, depending on your audience. 00:10:19.491 --> 00:10:21.251 Let me just bring a little bit of awareness to this concept 00:10:21.251 --> 00:10:22.461 of emotional consistency. 00:10:22.461 --> 00:10:22.476 Let's see. 00:10:22.896 --> 00:10:26.746 You doing it on the regular, it really is possible and it can eventually 00:10:26.786 --> 00:10:29.756 take far less emotional calories because you're just being you. 00:10:30.046 --> 00:10:33.146 You're not trying to figure out who you believe you were supposed to be, or 00:10:33.166 --> 00:10:36.286 need to be in the various relationships that you encounter throughout your life. 00:10:36.876 --> 00:10:39.619 , I want to give a couple of examples about emotional immaturity, especially for 00:10:39.619 --> 00:10:43.906 anybody new to the podcast, I'm grateful that the numbers continue to grow. 00:10:43.906 --> 00:10:45.496 And I think we're getting new people all the time. 00:10:45.496 --> 00:10:49.491 So I long ago, I made the decision we're talking in the first 10 episodes. 00:10:49.491 --> 00:10:52.891 And here we are at episode one 15 to really identify that narcissistic 00:10:52.891 --> 00:10:55.851 personality disorder is a real small percentage of the population. 00:10:56.271 --> 00:11:01.211 But if you are listening to the zeitgeist, what people are saying just out in the 00:11:01.211 --> 00:11:06.521 world, it would feel like 50, 60, 70 percent of human beings are narcissistic. 00:11:06.621 --> 00:11:08.371 Everybody's ex everybody's boss. 00:11:08.911 --> 00:11:10.001 Maybe everybody's parent. 00:11:10.381 --> 00:11:14.401 From that lens, I would love to just bring awareness to the fact that again, 00:11:14.401 --> 00:11:17.911 narcissistic personality disorder is a small percentage of the population, 00:11:17.921 --> 00:11:19.641 some believe two to four or 5%. 00:11:20.091 --> 00:11:23.911 But I would feel very confident saying that we're all emotionally immature 00:11:23.921 --> 00:11:25.481 and various areas of our lives. 00:11:25.971 --> 00:11:27.081 What is emotional immaturity? 00:11:27.131 --> 00:11:29.971 It's basically when somebody's emotional responses and coping 00:11:29.971 --> 00:11:34.701 mechanisms don't show up as developed as you'd expect for their age. 00:11:34.821 --> 00:11:38.271 It's like their emotional growth got stuck somewhere along the way. 00:11:38.271 --> 00:11:39.391 Now, how does that form? 00:11:39.761 --> 00:11:40.961 There's a few different ways. 00:11:40.971 --> 00:11:43.971 And I think this is part of the normalizing process, 00:11:43.991 --> 00:11:44.901 childhood experiences. 00:11:45.416 --> 00:11:48.756 If kids don't learn healthy ways to deal with emotions from their parents 00:11:48.756 --> 00:11:51.476 or their caregivers, they might not develop these skills properly. 00:11:51.556 --> 00:11:55.526 And I will maintain that we're just now starting to talk openly about mental 00:11:55.526 --> 00:12:00.146 health and allowing ourselves to feel the feelings and have the emotions, even 00:12:00.146 --> 00:12:01.926 to the point of where I noticed that. 00:12:02.366 --> 00:12:03.116 I love humor. 00:12:03.136 --> 00:12:06.546 It's one of my favorite things, but I still find myself stifling a laugh 00:12:06.546 --> 00:12:09.796 at times because I'm not sure if that's okay for me to laugh at certain 00:12:09.796 --> 00:12:13.016 things, but if I want to laugh, I need to allow myself to laugh. 00:12:13.016 --> 00:12:16.546 It's one of those emotions that we need to make room for and 00:12:16.546 --> 00:12:17.866 say, Hey, buddy, come on in. 00:12:17.944 --> 00:12:20.174 you're going to have free reign for a little while, and so with that 00:12:20.184 --> 00:12:25.234 might come some more intense sadness as well, or some processing grief or 00:12:25.274 --> 00:12:27.014 allowing ourselves to really feel. 00:12:27.344 --> 00:12:30.784 So I would imagine most people haven't developed those skills properly. 00:12:30.994 --> 00:12:32.274 So now is the time. 00:12:32.804 --> 00:12:35.344 Another way that emotional maturity forms is trauma. 00:12:35.859 --> 00:12:39.789 Difficult experiences can interrupt emotional development in childhood. 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:43.849 And people often do feel like they are halted or stuck at certain 00:12:43.889 --> 00:12:46.019 ages or developmental stages based on some of the things that 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:46.869 they've been through in their life. 00:12:47.609 --> 00:12:50.489 But I think one of the, also the big reasons is just a lack of practice. 00:12:50.489 --> 00:12:53.069 If somebody doesn't have many opportunities to face and work 00:12:53.069 --> 00:12:56.579 through challenging emotions, they might not develop emotional maturity. 00:12:56.579 --> 00:13:01.929 And we are just so wired to, to avoid and alleviate anything uncomfortable. 00:13:02.484 --> 00:13:06.664 But ironically, that discomfort, that uncomfortable place in our life 00:13:06.694 --> 00:13:09.964 is where growth occurs, and we can learn to sit with that discomfort. 00:13:10.324 --> 00:13:11.904 Now, all of a sudden, we get to feel feelings. 00:13:11.904 --> 00:13:15.034 We get to understand who we are and we start to understand the things that 00:13:15.034 --> 00:13:17.744 we care about, the things that we are worried about, the things that we fear. 00:13:18.124 --> 00:13:23.094 And at times we will find out that, that fear is just, it's a 00:13:23.094 --> 00:13:25.504 little bit of a warning signal, but we're going to be okay. 00:13:25.504 --> 00:13:29.364 But I think one of the main things that causes emotional immaturity, and I'm 00:13:29.364 --> 00:13:32.494 going to throw a bless their hearts label on this because I know that as 00:13:32.494 --> 00:13:39.274 a father of four now adult children, I certainly have I guess no, no way to say 00:13:39.274 --> 00:13:40.814 it better, but mess them up a little bit. 00:13:40.814 --> 00:13:41.294 I'm sure. 00:13:41.719 --> 00:13:44.599 But overprotective parenting can lead to emotional immaturity. 00:13:44.599 --> 00:13:47.629 You know, when parents shield kids from all the negative experiences, 00:13:47.629 --> 00:13:49.949 it can prevent them from learning how to handle tough situations. 00:13:50.239 --> 00:13:51.999 But that is so difficult. 00:13:52.149 --> 00:13:56.179 It's difficult for me as a parent to say, no, I'm learning to put a pause in. 00:13:56.509 --> 00:13:58.759 And when my kids say, Hey, dad, is it okay? 00:13:59.359 --> 00:14:01.749 I'm trying to pause and say, and just at least let them finish 00:14:01.749 --> 00:14:03.149 the sentence before I say yes. 00:14:03.849 --> 00:14:04.889 Versus saying, yeah, yeah, sure. 00:14:04.889 --> 00:14:05.279 No problem. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:06.519 But let me go over. 00:14:06.774 --> 00:14:10.604 A few different examples of what emotional immaturity then looks like in adults. 00:14:11.194 --> 00:14:13.384 One of the biggest ones is difficulty controlling emotions. 00:14:13.714 --> 00:14:18.034 So imagine somebody just bursting into tears, maybe yelling at a coworker for 00:14:18.374 --> 00:14:21.014 eating something out of the fridge or using their stapler without asking. 00:14:21.584 --> 00:14:24.754 Where it just seems like, whoa, that does not seem like that big of a deal. 00:14:25.334 --> 00:14:26.954 Another one is avoiding responsibility. 00:14:27.044 --> 00:14:31.274 Somebody consistently showing up late to work, but they always have an excuse. 00:14:31.314 --> 00:14:34.901 Yeah, it was traffic or their alarm clock or these are dumb rules anyway, 00:14:34.901 --> 00:14:35.831 or we don't do anything right. 00:14:35.831 --> 00:14:37.021 When we start work anyway. 00:14:37.301 --> 00:14:42.266 So anything other Then acknowledging and taking ownership of their 00:14:42.276 --> 00:14:43.596 poor time management skills. 00:14:44.346 --> 00:14:46.726 Another one is seeking constant attention. 00:14:46.726 --> 00:14:49.186 And here's where you start looking at that emotional immaturity can sure 00:14:49.186 --> 00:14:52.826 look a lot like narcissistic traits and tendencies having a little bit of 00:14:52.826 --> 00:14:55.126 that vibe of grandiosity of everybody. 00:14:55.166 --> 00:14:55.696 I'm amazing. 00:14:55.696 --> 00:14:56.196 Look at me. 00:14:56.771 --> 00:14:59.821 But this might be somebody that posts on social media just over 00:14:59.821 --> 00:15:02.111 and over again, but they're doing it because they're looking for 00:15:02.111 --> 00:15:03.941 compliments and looking for validation. 00:15:04.331 --> 00:15:07.611 And so then they base their worth off of if people do compliment or validate 00:15:08.001 --> 00:15:11.891 I know, and I feel confident that we've moved into the area or the era of social 00:15:11.891 --> 00:15:15.061 media, where there are also people that are just posting things because they 00:15:15.061 --> 00:15:19.251 do want a connection and they feel like that's their community or they are having, 00:15:19.291 --> 00:15:20.991 in essence, a scrapbook of their life. 00:15:21.391 --> 00:15:24.571 So I think that you're the only one that really knows am I doing this just 00:15:24.571 --> 00:15:29.091 because I want the validation and there are other ways that people seek constant 00:15:29.121 --> 00:15:30.691 attention and validation as well. 00:15:30.701 --> 00:15:33.931 Poor impulse control is a big sign of emotional immaturity. 00:15:34.456 --> 00:15:39.246 I think of a client I had once that impulsively quit job after job with just 00:15:39.246 --> 00:15:42.686 little disagreements with their boss, without even considering things like their 00:15:42.686 --> 00:15:44.446 financial obligations to their family. 00:15:45.206 --> 00:15:50.756 that poor impulse control, is tied directly to being unable to sit 00:15:50.766 --> 00:15:54.706 with that discomfort of knowing that there might have been something 00:15:54.706 --> 00:15:55.706 they could have done different. 00:15:56.101 --> 00:15:59.151 And at their job difficulty with empathy is a pretty big one. 00:15:59.421 --> 00:16:03.371 Somebody complaining about, and these are all based off of real examples as well. 00:16:03.771 --> 00:16:07.091 But I had a client once that complained about their friend canceling 00:16:07.091 --> 00:16:08.911 plans due to a family emergency. 00:16:08.911 --> 00:16:11.311 It was a death in their extended family. 00:16:11.631 --> 00:16:15.991 And this person came into session and they were very upset because they had had 00:16:15.991 --> 00:16:20.451 plans with this person and just how rude that was and how little notice that they 00:16:20.451 --> 00:16:24.511 had and we were able to eventually get to this place where there was a bit of 00:16:24.511 --> 00:16:29.301 humor with man, how dare their extended family pass away when you had plans 00:16:29.301 --> 00:16:31.201 to go to this country music concert. 00:16:31.931 --> 00:16:35.781 Another sign of this emotional immaturity in adults is. 00:16:36.251 --> 00:16:39.281 All or nothing black or white thinking, this is where you might 00:16:39.631 --> 00:16:41.821 interact with somebody who just says their entire day is ruined. 00:16:42.366 --> 00:16:45.776 Because their favorite donut shop was closed and they didn't 00:16:45.776 --> 00:16:47.256 even know that they were closed. 00:16:47.756 --> 00:16:49.386 And at this point now, my whole day is ruined. 00:16:49.816 --> 00:16:52.586 They're unable to see any positives in moving forward. 00:16:53.086 --> 00:16:55.746 Another sign of emotional maturity is this inability to compromise. 00:16:55.986 --> 00:16:58.696 And I think about somebody who just had a real struggle considering 00:16:58.696 --> 00:17:02.046 their partner's movie suggestions where they wanted to go to eat and 00:17:02.056 --> 00:17:05.206 insisting that, okay, look, I make better choices when it comes to movies. 00:17:05.296 --> 00:17:08.106 What we identified was in this situation, the husband just 00:17:08.106 --> 00:17:09.176 felt like, what's the point? 00:17:09.376 --> 00:17:12.386 I expressed my opinion, then I'm going to be told I'm wrong anyway. 00:17:12.386 --> 00:17:14.756 So eventually she would say, what movie do you want to see? 00:17:14.856 --> 00:17:16.786 And he might say one, he's like, but I don't know, what are you thinking? 00:17:16.786 --> 00:17:18.406 She's like, I really was thinking this other one. 00:17:18.406 --> 00:17:21.806 He'd say, that sounds great because he just knew it's not worth the argument. 00:17:22.376 --> 00:17:23.526 Difficulty with criticism. 00:17:23.636 --> 00:17:26.166 That's a really big one in the world of emotional immaturity. 00:17:26.531 --> 00:17:29.591 I think about somebody who this was another work situation, somebody that 00:17:29.621 --> 00:17:33.081 they said that they were actually in the position of delivering the performance 00:17:33.081 --> 00:17:37.671 review, but where the person just stormed out as soon as they started 00:17:37.671 --> 00:17:39.111 to feel a little bit criticized. 00:17:39.581 --> 00:17:42.711 And this person said that, man, if they could have just sat there for 00:17:42.711 --> 00:17:45.481 about another 15 seconds, they would have gotten to the part where, and 00:17:45.481 --> 00:17:47.021 here's the positives and the strengths. 00:17:47.241 --> 00:17:49.991 Another sign of emotional maturity is struggling with long term relationships. 00:17:50.441 --> 00:17:53.341 And boy, this is the concept these days of ghosting. 00:17:53.491 --> 00:17:55.661 how many times I hear people talk about ghosting their friends 00:17:55.661 --> 00:17:56.751 whenever they disagree with them. 00:17:57.191 --> 00:18:00.701 And so then it leads to this person who has this constantly changing social 00:18:00.701 --> 00:18:04.061 circle and they're basically burning the village down behind them everywhere 00:18:04.061 --> 00:18:05.971 they go from a friendship standpoint. 00:18:06.171 --> 00:18:08.991 And then just overall difficulty dealing with stress. 00:18:09.161 --> 00:18:12.381 And I think about somebody that's procrastinating on a project and it's 00:18:12.381 --> 00:18:15.181 not even the good kind of procrastination where you get that dopamine dump at the 00:18:15.181 --> 00:18:17.671 end and you finish in the nick of time and you say that you work well under 00:18:17.671 --> 00:18:20.761 pressure and then you promise that day forward that I'm going to work on things 00:18:20.761 --> 00:18:23.838 earlier, which is adorable, but we're talking about the kind where the person 00:18:23.838 --> 00:18:27.108 procrastinates on the project and calls in sick that day, the day that it's 00:18:27.108 --> 00:18:30.538 due rather than face the consequences. 00:18:31.388 --> 00:18:32.598 So there is emotional immaturity. 00:18:33.043 --> 00:18:36.913 So why not just do a quick run through as well on what more of the 00:18:36.913 --> 00:18:40.413 narcissistic personality disorder looks like, because it is truly, 00:18:40.423 --> 00:18:41.773 it is a mental health condition. 00:18:41.993 --> 00:18:46.833 It's characterized by an inflated sense of self importance, a deep need for excessive 00:18:46.833 --> 00:18:50.923 attention and admiration, and basically a complete lack of empathy for others. 00:18:51.908 --> 00:18:57.151 And people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder anything they perceive as any 00:18:57.151 --> 00:19:01.211 type of criticism, and that can lead to incredibly difficult relationships. 00:19:01.756 --> 00:19:05.806 So examples of narcissistic personality disorder, NPD, we'll use that moving 00:19:05.806 --> 00:19:09.416 forward, NPD traits, that grandiose sense of self importance, think of 00:19:09.416 --> 00:19:12.686 the person that just constantly brags about being the best salesman in 00:19:12.686 --> 00:19:15.536 the company's history, even though you could go look up the numbers and 00:19:15.536 --> 00:19:16.876 their performance is pretty average. 00:19:17.366 --> 00:19:20.156 You see somebody that talks about that they set records in their high school, 00:19:20.406 --> 00:19:22.926 but then if you go back and look in the high school actually does have records 00:19:23.016 --> 00:19:25.056 for some reason, they're not mentioned. 00:19:25.746 --> 00:19:28.956 Or a preoccupation with these fantasies of unlimited success, 00:19:28.966 --> 00:19:30.386 unlimited power, unlimited beauty. 00:19:30.866 --> 00:19:35.196 I think of this one client that they just spent just day, daydreaming hours and 00:19:35.206 --> 00:19:41.196 hours of daydreaming about becoming this world famous YouTuber despite actually 00:19:41.196 --> 00:19:45.706 not having their YouTube channel or their direction year after year after year. 00:19:46.396 --> 00:19:48.736 Or belief in their own uniqueness, their own superiority. 00:19:49.336 --> 00:19:53.396 I think about a guy that at one point was saying that he only sees the ironically 00:19:53.756 --> 00:19:57.746 I learned this because he would only see me as a therapist because I had a popular 00:19:57.746 --> 00:20:01.436 podcast and he only sees top tier doctors because he believes his health issues. 00:20:01.796 --> 00:20:05.516 They're probably too complex for regular physicians , his case was 00:20:05.526 --> 00:20:10.396 actually pretty standard narcissistic personality disorder, vibe in a 00:20:10.396 --> 00:20:15.116 relationship or in the world of MPD, that need for constant admiration. 00:20:15.776 --> 00:20:19.406 And this is somebody that just continually just boasts and makes 00:20:19.436 --> 00:20:21.266 things about them over and over again. 00:20:21.746 --> 00:20:25.266 They ruin weddings, wedding receptions they ruin corporate events. 00:20:25.266 --> 00:20:28.856 They ruin all kinds of things because they find a way to make it about them. 00:20:29.446 --> 00:20:30.556 Or a sense of entitlement. 00:20:30.976 --> 00:20:36.416 I remember back in my computer days going out to dinner with someone often who they 00:20:36.416 --> 00:20:39.696 expected to be seated immediately, even if they didn't have a reservation, they 00:20:39.696 --> 00:20:41.016 felt like they could always get their way. 00:20:41.066 --> 00:20:44.816 They felt like they could just bully their way into situations and they would 00:20:44.816 --> 00:20:46.976 cause scenes when they were told to wait. 00:20:47.036 --> 00:20:49.866 unfortunately, oftentimes their behavior was rewarded. 00:20:49.866 --> 00:20:52.625 So they felt see, that's how you get things done. 00:20:52.625 --> 00:20:54.247 I am very then interpersonal exploitation. 00:20:55.257 --> 00:20:58.707 This is where you find some people in the workplace that befriend co workers 00:20:58.707 --> 00:21:02.497 just to get them to cover their shifts and then they don't reciprocate. 00:21:02.882 --> 00:21:06.122 They discard relationships once that relationship is no longer useful. 00:21:06.332 --> 00:21:09.282 And then they might come back around and try to be friends with that person again, 00:21:09.382 --> 00:21:12.582 when they need someone, a lack of empathy. 00:21:13.202 --> 00:21:17.662 There was a client that I worked with a while ago where when his wife 00:21:17.672 --> 00:21:20.832 shares that she's stressed about work he then would just change the 00:21:20.862 --> 00:21:22.382 subject to talk about his own day. 00:21:22.692 --> 00:21:28.302 And it was almost like he felt like her, whatever she said was the cue for 00:21:28.302 --> 00:21:30.272 him to now share a story about himself. 00:21:30.777 --> 00:21:35.087 And he could not wrap his head around that in the couple sessions at all. 00:21:35.147 --> 00:21:37.097 And that's one of those where you just watch somebody who 00:21:37.097 --> 00:21:38.437 doesn't know what they don't know. 00:21:38.787 --> 00:21:42.807 And they're not even sure that they understand why we're continuing to have 00:21:42.807 --> 00:21:46.837 this conversation and we were trying to use my beloved four pillars and have him 00:21:47.137 --> 00:21:49.647 truly understand and hear his spouse. 00:21:49.677 --> 00:21:51.027 But he was saying, no, I heard her. 00:21:51.442 --> 00:21:52.842 Say this is her day. 00:21:52.842 --> 00:21:54.562 So then I'm going to tell her about my day. 00:21:54.982 --> 00:21:58.042 And we tried to even introduce the concepts of curiosity and he's yeah, 00:21:58.042 --> 00:22:01.522 but I know what, when, based on what she told me, I already know how her 00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:05.632 whole day went, I can guarantee I could write down a script of what she probably 00:22:05.632 --> 00:22:07.672 said to her coworkers and, all that. 00:22:07.672 --> 00:22:10.552 And I think he used words like the minutia of her day. 00:22:10.922 --> 00:22:14.222 So this person was saying, but then let me tell you about my day. 00:22:15.022 --> 00:22:18.042 And then there's also a concept in NPD of this envy of others or belief that 00:22:18.042 --> 00:22:21.112 others are envious of them that, and this is where you'll see people that they 00:22:21.112 --> 00:22:22.532 just can't be happy for other people. 00:22:22.532 --> 00:22:24.422 They can't congratulate somebody on a promotion. 00:22:24.432 --> 00:22:27.832 It's as if there's this overall scarcity mindset in the world. 00:22:28.172 --> 00:22:31.002 And that's part of what leads to back to that all or nothing black or white 00:22:31.002 --> 00:22:34.582 thinking where, if they are listening to a podcast, they are listening to the best 1. 00:22:34.602 --> 00:22:37.352 If you suggest 1, then that 1's dumb and you need to listen to theirs. 00:22:38.092 --> 00:22:41.662 But in this scenario about in this work situation. 00:22:41.872 --> 00:22:46.272 There was a woman that was saying that she has a colleague that cannot congratulate 00:22:46.292 --> 00:22:50.162 anybody on a promotion because they're convinced that they deserved it more. 00:22:50.672 --> 00:22:54.432 And that for some reason, the other person must have had some inside 00:22:54.862 --> 00:22:56.772 insider info to get that promotion. 00:22:56.772 --> 00:22:57.752 They had to have cheated. 00:22:58.382 --> 00:23:01.172 And that just leads in the NPD world to just overall arrogant 00:23:01.172 --> 00:23:02.452 behaviors and attitudes. 00:23:02.502 --> 00:23:05.112 Somebody talking down to wait staff at restaurants, and they 00:23:05.112 --> 00:23:08.022 believe that their status as a customer makes them far superior. 00:23:08.477 --> 00:23:11.747 So if you look at that, and I know that there can feel like some similarities, 00:23:11.747 --> 00:23:14.667 but there are also differences between NPD and emotional immaturity. 00:23:14.937 --> 00:23:15.177 Yeah. 00:23:15.177 --> 00:23:18.097 The similarities are things like difficulty with empathy, both struggle 00:23:18.097 --> 00:23:21.407 to understand or consider other people's feelings or the problems 00:23:21.407 --> 00:23:22.417 that show up in relationships. 00:23:22.417 --> 00:23:25.077 Cause both can have trouble maintaining healthy, long term relationships. 00:23:25.517 --> 00:23:28.037 They both have a difficulty handling criticism. 00:23:28.377 --> 00:23:30.967 They both might react poorly to perceive criticism. 00:23:31.242 --> 00:23:32.442 Or negative feedback. 00:23:32.472 --> 00:23:35.722 What's interesting though is the person with narcissistic personality 00:23:35.722 --> 00:23:38.132 disorder just thinks you're wrong. 00:23:38.182 --> 00:23:39.232 You don't understand me. 00:23:39.652 --> 00:23:43.532 The person with emotional immaturity can't take that feeling that they 00:23:43.532 --> 00:23:46.712 might have done something wrong or that they might not be the best. 00:23:47.142 --> 00:23:50.532 And so it comes back down to that gaslighting as a childhood defense 00:23:50.532 --> 00:23:54.572 mechanism, that they can't not be the best or be wrong because if so, then their 00:23:54.572 --> 00:23:57.522 parents will not pay attention to them and they will not get that validation. 00:23:58.147 --> 00:24:01.187 Both also engage in a lot of attention seeking behaviors. 00:24:01.227 --> 00:24:05.847 Both might act out in behaviors that are designed to draw attention to themselves, 00:24:05.857 --> 00:24:09.687 wherever they are, whatever they do, and both have poor emotional regulation. 00:24:09.757 --> 00:24:12.247 So both have trouble controlling their emotional responses. 00:24:12.627 --> 00:24:17.497 Now the differences is self image because people with NPD, they have an inflated 00:24:17.497 --> 00:24:21.797 self image while emotionally immature people actually have a low self esteem. 00:24:21.867 --> 00:24:22.707 They're insecure. 00:24:22.707 --> 00:24:24.257 They have this fluctuating self image. 00:24:24.847 --> 00:24:28.487 And then motivation NPD behaviors are so driven by this need for 00:24:28.497 --> 00:24:31.877 admiration and validation where emotional immaturity is more about 00:24:31.907 --> 00:24:33.607 this underdeveloped coping mechanism. 00:24:33.637 --> 00:24:36.857 It's this desire to not be viewed as wrong or having done 00:24:36.857 --> 00:24:39.537 something with somebody else that somebody else would be upset with. 00:24:40.207 --> 00:24:43.287 And then empathy, the way that that's handled is different as well. 00:24:43.297 --> 00:24:46.287 So both people struggle with empathy, but people with NPD 00:24:46.337 --> 00:24:48.087 often lack empathy entirely. 00:24:48.117 --> 00:24:50.607 They don't even understand why we're still having this conversation. 00:24:50.957 --> 00:24:54.717 Whereas emotionally immature people may have empathy, but they struggle to express 00:24:54.717 --> 00:24:58.827 it appropriately because it would be so uncomfortable to have to acknowledge that, 00:24:58.837 --> 00:25:00.817 that they may have offended somebody else. 00:25:01.337 --> 00:25:05.017 Or that they might not have provided you with safety in the relationship. 00:25:05.327 --> 00:25:08.437 So it can't be that it has to be because you did something wrong 00:25:08.567 --> 00:25:09.937 because it's so uncomfortable to them. 00:25:10.737 --> 00:25:12.977 And what's interesting is the concept of persistence. 00:25:13.492 --> 00:25:17.712 In the NPD world NPD is a persistent long term personality disorder, while 00:25:17.712 --> 00:25:21.092 emotional immaturity can potentially be addressed and improved with things 00:25:21.092 --> 00:25:22.512 like therapy and personal growth. 00:25:22.822 --> 00:25:24.162 And you can see the areas of growth. 00:25:24.182 --> 00:25:27.302 Now, it might not be as quickly as one might like if they're in 00:25:27.302 --> 00:25:30.362 a relationship with somebody that is struggling with emotionally 00:25:30.362 --> 00:25:32.352 mature reactions and responses. 00:25:33.172 --> 00:25:36.882 And then manipulation, people with NPD often consciously manipulate 00:25:36.882 --> 00:25:37.972 others for personal gain. 00:25:38.482 --> 00:25:41.052 And I think this is a big difference because people will often say. 00:25:41.317 --> 00:25:43.057 I'm sure that they know what they're doing. 00:25:43.467 --> 00:25:47.387 as somebody that has sat across from hundreds and hundreds of emotionally 00:25:47.387 --> 00:25:52.467 immature people, ranging right up to good old narcissist is that over 00:25:52.467 --> 00:25:55.537 time, you can kind of, I think, really have this narcissist or 00:25:55.537 --> 00:25:57.257 emotionally immature radar of sorts. 00:25:57.667 --> 00:26:01.937 And you can see that sometimes they truly don't have a clue of why people 00:26:01.937 --> 00:26:06.247 are making such a big deal out of things that, that they, they may not. 00:26:06.667 --> 00:26:07.767 It may not be conscious. 00:26:07.787 --> 00:26:11.027 It might be more in the subconscious or that's where that concept 00:26:11.027 --> 00:26:12.137 of confabulation comes in. 00:26:12.137 --> 00:26:15.187 So quickly where you watch somebody say something they think is even empathetic 00:26:15.187 --> 00:26:19.197 or the right thing to say, and they gauge or map their partner's reaction. 00:26:19.547 --> 00:26:21.267 And all of a sudden, what do they do with that? 00:26:21.277 --> 00:26:23.527 That's where I almost feel like this subconscious confabulation 00:26:23.527 --> 00:26:26.807 comes in and you watch the person create a new narrative in real time. 00:26:26.987 --> 00:26:30.307 That's what will feel like gaslighting sometimes from this desperate place 00:26:30.317 --> 00:26:32.427 where the emotionally immature person just doesn't want to be 00:26:32.427 --> 00:26:34.997 wrong, or they don't want somebody to be disappointed with them. 00:26:35.577 --> 00:26:37.537 That's that concept of manipulation. 00:26:37.587 --> 00:26:40.577 It's interesting because that word is so loaded, but I think you can see 00:26:40.577 --> 00:26:44.127 though, again, NPD people consciously manipulate others for personal gain, 00:26:44.427 --> 00:26:48.287 emotionally immature behaviors are usually not deliberately manipulative. 00:26:48.837 --> 00:26:51.737 But then as soon as, if they find out that they're not being validated, 00:26:51.747 --> 00:26:56.347 or they might've done something wrong, then it is full blown panic. 00:26:57.037 --> 00:26:59.007 Which leads to the concepts of self awareness. 00:26:59.007 --> 00:27:01.897 Individuals with NPD typically lack insight into their condition. 00:27:02.707 --> 00:27:05.497 This is that concept where they don't feel like they're doing anything different than 00:27:05.497 --> 00:27:08.377 what anyone would do as in that situation. 00:27:08.837 --> 00:27:11.067 It's core or central to their ego. 00:27:11.367 --> 00:27:12.777 They don't see anything wrong. 00:27:13.147 --> 00:27:17.697 Where then emotionally immature people might recognize their struggles, 00:27:17.727 --> 00:27:18.817 even if they can't change them. 00:27:19.107 --> 00:27:20.927 And that might lead to more of the frustration and the 00:27:20.927 --> 00:27:22.137 frustration feels uncomfortable. 00:27:22.137 --> 00:27:23.327 And how do they get rid of the discomfort? 00:27:23.657 --> 00:27:25.357 They need control in this situation. 00:27:25.357 --> 00:27:30.607 How do they get control, anger, withdraw, gaslighting shut down victim status. 00:27:31.407 --> 00:27:32.197 And then severity. 00:27:32.207 --> 00:27:36.287 If you look at MPD, it is a clinical diagnosis with the most severe and 00:27:36.287 --> 00:27:39.487 pervasive symptoms while emotional immaturity exists on a spectrum, and it's 00:27:39.487 --> 00:27:41.207 not a clinical disorder, at least not yet. 00:27:41.957 --> 00:27:44.987 And then the good old origin story, you got MPD is thought to develop 00:27:44.987 --> 00:27:47.857 from a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental factors, 00:27:47.857 --> 00:27:51.537 nature and nurture often rooted in childhood where emotional immaturity. 00:27:51.922 --> 00:27:55.182 may more directly be linked to developmental experiences, learn 00:27:55.182 --> 00:27:58.242 behaviors, what someone was modeled, what they don't know that they don't know. 00:27:58.592 --> 00:28:01.422 But then in that hope for growth, it is uncomfortable. 00:28:01.462 --> 00:28:03.352 And once again, what do we do with our discomfort? 00:28:04.152 --> 00:28:07.222 And I think right now it's good to then bring in that concept as well. 00:28:07.272 --> 00:28:10.752 If we're really going to get to this false self of intermittent reinforcement. 00:28:11.312 --> 00:28:12.582 So we've talked about emotional immaturity. 00:28:12.582 --> 00:28:14.362 We've talked about narcissistic personality disorder 00:28:14.632 --> 00:28:18.262 so intermittent reinforcement is a principle of behavioral psychology. 00:28:18.272 --> 00:28:22.362 It was first described by the psychologist BF Skinner in the thirties. 00:28:22.422 --> 00:28:22.872 And. 00:28:22.872 --> 00:28:27.572 The 1930s that we're not to the 2030s yet, but it occurs when a reward or 00:28:27.572 --> 00:28:31.872 positive outcomes given only sometimes in response to a particular behavior. 00:28:32.622 --> 00:28:35.382 Let me read from a website called feeling is healing. 00:28:35.392 --> 00:28:35.412 co. 00:28:35.412 --> 00:28:36.622 uk. 00:28:36.622 --> 00:28:39.992 And this is 1 that I've done an episode on based off of this article 00:28:40.022 --> 00:28:41.532 on intermittent reinforcement. 00:28:41.532 --> 00:28:43.262 So Skinner carried out these studies with rats. 00:28:43.272 --> 00:28:46.672 So when rats press the lever, they were rewarded with food each time. 00:28:46.672 --> 00:28:48.302 So that was continuous reinforcement. 00:28:48.622 --> 00:28:51.562 So after a while, the researchers changed the parameters of the experiment 00:28:51.562 --> 00:28:54.192 and the rats were rewarded with food in an unpredictable pattern. 00:28:54.522 --> 00:28:56.832 Sometimes they'd press this lever and reward them with food. 00:28:56.842 --> 00:28:57.632 Other times it wouldn't. 00:28:58.242 --> 00:28:59.722 the pattern was completely random. 00:28:59.742 --> 00:29:02.172 the rats couldn't predict whether they would receive a reward or not. 00:29:02.592 --> 00:29:05.692 the result of this was that the rats became obsessed with pressing the lever. 00:29:06.092 --> 00:29:09.392 So after a while, the researchers changed this whole setup again, so 00:29:09.392 --> 00:29:12.162 that there was no reward anytime when the rats pressed the lever. 00:29:12.692 --> 00:29:15.362 And their expectation was that the rats would give up. 00:29:15.432 --> 00:29:17.532 So they were going to study how long does it take to then 00:29:17.872 --> 00:29:19.322 move away from that behavior. 00:29:19.322 --> 00:29:21.042 But the opposite occurred. 00:29:21.532 --> 00:29:25.912 The rats went crazy and continued to press the lever obsessively, even neglecting 00:29:25.912 --> 00:29:27.862 their own hygiene and other needs. 00:29:27.862 --> 00:29:28.812 They weren't brushing their teeth. 00:29:28.882 --> 00:29:31.942 They weren't, saying , their little prayers before dinner at bed. 00:29:32.022 --> 00:29:32.812 I'm kidding. 00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:35.959 But this mirrors what happens in an abusive relationship and it goes toward 00:29:35.959 --> 00:29:39.629 explaining why the relationships based off of this concept of intermittent 00:29:39.639 --> 00:29:43.429 reinforcement are so harder to leave than healthy relationships because the 00:29:43.429 --> 00:29:46.979 person becomes addicted to trying to get the emotionally mature narcissist 00:29:47.329 --> 00:29:49.359 to behave in a safe and sane way. 00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:53.559 In a way that makes sense to them, and it's why it takes so much 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:55.619 longer to get over an abusive relationship once it's ended. 00:29:55.989 --> 00:29:58.239 And that's because the relationship by nature is not a relationship, 00:29:58.249 --> 00:29:59.469 but it is an addiction. 00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:03.029 So this intermittent reinforcement, it is Probably the most powerful motivator 00:30:03.029 --> 00:30:07.709 and manipulation tactic because in an abusive relationship, the abuser mixes 00:30:07.709 --> 00:30:10.729 these episodes of love in with the abuse. 00:30:11.129 --> 00:30:14.719 So then the victim gets so worn down and then starved of affection that by the 00:30:14.729 --> 00:30:18.949 time that they get that little teeny scrap of love, then they get a dopamine dump. 00:30:18.979 --> 00:30:20.309 They get a release of the chemical dopamine. 00:30:21.029 --> 00:30:24.849 And so then the victim eventually associates the abuser with the feeling of 00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:28.429 relief from their pain, even though the abuser caused the pain in the first place. 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:31.329 So that is this concept of a trauma bond. 00:30:31.939 --> 00:30:37.309 And this is why intermittent reinforcement is what really explains why no contact. 00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:41.929 It really is the most important concept when it's possible to do so. 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.089 Because for a narcissist, the relationship is never really over. 00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:46.899 From their perspective, they'll keep coming back to you as 00:30:46.899 --> 00:30:48.049 long as they need their drug. 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.089 And that's that narcissistic supply. 00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:53.329 And what I love about this particular article that I can put in the show notes, 00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:57.659 is they call out that another behavior such as checking emails is another 00:30:57.659 --> 00:30:59.089 example of intermittent reinforcement. 00:30:59.109 --> 00:31:03.894 We're rewarded when an email is, is Coming in but emails can be inconsistent 00:31:03.894 --> 00:31:08.544 and unpredictable with how often we get them or the notifications of your phone. 00:31:08.914 --> 00:31:12.404 So the occasions when we receive a reward make up for the times when we check the 00:31:12.404 --> 00:31:14.374 phone or the email and there is no reward. 00:31:14.784 --> 00:31:17.084 And other examples of intermittent reinforcement are things like 00:31:17.084 --> 00:31:18.254 gambling and slot machines. 00:31:18.254 --> 00:31:23.304 And it's, it's also why you give in to a nagging child when the 00:31:23.334 --> 00:31:26.074 child continues to like push and nag and push your boundaries. 00:31:26.664 --> 00:31:28.654 Because they'll learn that after a certain amount of time, 00:31:28.694 --> 00:31:29.704 they will get what they want. 00:31:30.284 --> 00:31:36.084 And this is why, one of the reasons why that people spoil their kids because they 00:31:36.084 --> 00:31:39.204 want to alleviate their own discomfort and then the kid just hammers away long 00:31:39.204 --> 00:31:40.364 enough and then you give in to them. 00:31:41.144 --> 00:31:43.834 how do you know when you're being subjected to this concept of intermittent 00:31:43.844 --> 00:31:45.044 reinforcement of the trauma bond? 00:31:45.044 --> 00:31:47.754 When you experience feelings of confusion in or out of the relationship. 00:31:48.094 --> 00:31:50.504 When you find yourself obsessing over what the other person meant 00:31:50.564 --> 00:31:51.724 or intended or is thinking. 00:31:52.124 --> 00:31:54.704 Or when you find yourself trying to work out what you could have done different to 00:31:54.704 --> 00:31:56.354 make the situation turn out differently. 00:31:56.664 --> 00:31:59.664 Or you blame yourself and you feel the need to take responsibility for what went 00:31:59.664 --> 00:32:04.084 wrong in the relationship and for what your partner future or past has done. 00:32:04.574 --> 00:32:07.584 Again, it's back to that if I can take responsibility for it, then I can fix it. 00:32:07.614 --> 00:32:10.954 But if I can't, then that may mean that I don't have as 00:32:10.954 --> 00:32:12.304 much control as I would like. 00:32:12.834 --> 00:32:16.754 Or if you're just feeling absolutely depressed and distressed and in pain 00:32:17.584 --> 00:32:21.214 after the relationship has ended, long after the relationship has ended. 00:32:21.804 --> 00:32:24.544 Or if you continually to second guess yourself, you rationalize, you talk 00:32:24.544 --> 00:32:26.124 yourself out of your gut instincts. 00:32:26.124 --> 00:32:27.214 That's what we want to get back to. 00:32:27.874 --> 00:32:30.804 Because a person with a personality disorder, such as things like narcissistic 00:32:30.804 --> 00:32:32.274 or antisocial personality disorder. 00:32:32.834 --> 00:32:36.634 That is someone that is, it is a personality disorder. 00:32:36.644 --> 00:32:40.584 They are unlikely to ever change because that behavior rewards them. 00:32:40.994 --> 00:32:45.774 They have to really truly go seek out long term help to change. 00:32:46.399 --> 00:32:50.219 And part of the problem is that with that personality disorders is they 00:32:50.219 --> 00:32:54.379 don't know that what they're doing is necessarily the wrong way to do it. 00:32:55.149 --> 00:32:57.229 They, that's the way that they are doing life. 00:32:57.849 --> 00:33:01.499 There are other non personality disorder people who have insecure attachments. 00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:04.769 So somebody like with an avoidant attachment style might pull away 00:33:04.769 --> 00:33:06.019 because of this fear of intimacy. 00:33:06.364 --> 00:33:08.964 That type of person would need to be willing to work with their partner 00:33:08.964 --> 00:33:10.224 to form more consistent patterns. 00:33:10.224 --> 00:33:14.824 So when it's already difficult to get that anxious and avoidant pattern to become 00:33:14.824 --> 00:33:21.784 more mature, it's, I can only say that trying to make that stability occur within 00:33:21.784 --> 00:33:25.684 the relationship with an emotionally immature narcissistic person is, It is 00:33:25.714 --> 00:33:30.344 going to zap you of your self and your emotional calories, time and effort. 00:33:31.144 --> 00:33:33.754 And so let me get back to the script here today, cause we're talking 00:33:33.754 --> 00:33:36.324 about, so that's that concept of intermittent reinforcement. 00:33:36.844 --> 00:33:41.944 And it occurs when a partner is inconsistently loving or attentive. 00:33:42.034 --> 00:33:44.504 Inconsistency is the problem. 00:33:44.514 --> 00:33:46.984 That inconsistency can actually strengthen that attachment. 00:33:47.774 --> 00:33:49.804 For the negative, making it harder to leave the relationship. 00:33:50.194 --> 00:33:52.844 I was working with somebody recently we'll call her Sarah. 00:33:53.154 --> 00:33:56.394 Her emotionally immature partner, Tom, loving, attentive sometimes, 00:33:56.444 --> 00:33:57.674 but cold and distant on others. 00:33:58.064 --> 00:34:00.364 She finds herself constantly trying to recreate these conditions that 00:34:00.374 --> 00:34:02.244 lead to his affectionate behavior. 00:34:02.584 --> 00:34:06.544 She starts to become dependent on these just rare moments of positivity. 00:34:06.984 --> 00:34:09.974 And that is the trauma bond that's that strong emotional attachment that 00:34:09.974 --> 00:34:14.064 develops between an emotionally abused person and their abuser, especially 00:34:14.064 --> 00:34:17.314 in conditions of intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment. 00:34:17.874 --> 00:34:21.134 In the context of being in a relationship with an emotionally immature person 00:34:21.134 --> 00:34:24.739 operating from this false self trauma bonding occurs because of this. 00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:28.589 It's the cycle of it's a cycle of idealization. 00:34:28.609 --> 00:34:31.829 So you're idealizing your partner and then they devalue you. 00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:35.409 So the cycle of idealization and devaluation, and that typically 00:34:35.409 --> 00:34:36.979 characterizes these relationships. 00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:41.129 So here's an example to, we'll call this person, Mike, he had a girlfriend, Lisa, 00:34:41.179 --> 00:34:42.519 she was the emotionally immature one. 00:34:42.839 --> 00:34:47.069 she would alternate between showering with love and affection and then At the 00:34:47.069 --> 00:34:51.069 drop of a hat, when white people are dropping hats, but subjecting him to 00:34:51.069 --> 00:34:52.999 cold withdrawal, emotional outburst. 00:34:53.269 --> 00:34:56.599 So he starts finding himself deeply attached to her and he's 00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:59.799 consistently seeking her approval and dreading her disapproval. 00:34:59.869 --> 00:35:03.589 So he's finding himself losing himself because he's not sure how to show 00:35:03.589 --> 00:35:05.109 up in order to get that approval. 00:35:05.139 --> 00:35:07.869 And he's desperately trying to, again, avoid the disapproval. 00:35:08.179 --> 00:35:11.419 So he starts to lose himself at defining his, all of his worth. 00:35:11.854 --> 00:35:13.654 Through her inconsistent validation. 00:35:14.394 --> 00:35:17.934 So how intermittent reinforcement and trauma bonding occur with that emotionally 00:35:17.934 --> 00:35:21.144 immature partner, that inconsistent affection, the emotionally immature 00:35:21.144 --> 00:35:25.114 partner operating again from this false self doesn't know who they are. 00:35:25.144 --> 00:35:29.184 So in any moment they are trying to make themselves feel better. 00:35:29.504 --> 00:35:33.594 So in one sense, they may be loving and then completely distant the next. 00:35:34.154 --> 00:35:37.214 When I mentioned earlier, this idealization and devaluation, the partner 00:35:37.444 --> 00:35:40.654 might put their significant other on a pedestal one day, then criticize 00:35:40.684 --> 00:35:42.634 them partially the next creating. 00:35:43.004 --> 00:35:47.124 I did an episode a little while ago on this emotional whiplash, but also 00:35:47.124 --> 00:35:51.304 this unpredictable response because due to their own unresolved issues, the 00:35:51.304 --> 00:35:55.384 emotionally immature person's reactions to situations can be so wildly inconsistent. 00:35:55.979 --> 00:35:58.139 And that keeps their partner consistently on edge. 00:35:58.349 --> 00:35:59.389 And are they doing it on purpose? 00:35:59.419 --> 00:36:00.419 I think they're just doing it. 00:36:00.469 --> 00:36:02.069 I think it's just in that moment. 00:36:02.069 --> 00:36:03.069 This is how they feel. 00:36:03.389 --> 00:36:06.699 But unfortunately, then if you call them out, so to speak on, if they had 00:36:06.699 --> 00:36:10.669 a different opinion, even earlier that day, then they're not going to be able 00:36:10.669 --> 00:36:13.499 to sit with that discomfort and self reflect and say, man, that's a good point. 00:36:13.549 --> 00:36:14.289 I didn't realize that. 00:36:14.619 --> 00:36:16.409 Then it's a, well, that's not what I meant. 00:36:16.439 --> 00:36:17.329 Or no, I didn't say that. 00:36:17.584 --> 00:36:21.474 Again, here comes that gaslighting but there are these moments of connection, 00:36:21.524 --> 00:36:25.004 rare moments where the person will feel that no, that they really do get it. 00:36:25.014 --> 00:36:29.254 There's this emotional intimacy and that will just start to feel so powerful 00:36:29.464 --> 00:36:32.864 that the partner starts to be willing to endure long periods of emotional neglect 00:36:33.064 --> 00:36:35.274 and just hopes of experiencing that. 00:36:35.544 --> 00:36:38.684 That moment of connection again, and then unfortunately, there's a 00:36:38.684 --> 00:36:41.714 deep fear of abandonment because that inconsistency starts to trigger 00:36:41.714 --> 00:36:46.244 abandonment and it starts to make that person fear that if I lose this 00:36:46.244 --> 00:36:48.014 person, even though they're not great. 00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:49.779 That I'll never find anybody again. 00:36:49.779 --> 00:36:53.469 And that's one of the ways that the emotionally immature person keeps 00:36:53.469 --> 00:36:57.449 that person around is they let them know that you would be nothing 00:36:57.449 --> 00:36:58.839 without me, those kind of things. 00:36:59.309 --> 00:37:03.229 And then rationalization, the partner might begin to excuse or rationalize the 00:37:03.229 --> 00:37:04.749 emotionally immature person's behavior. 00:37:05.429 --> 00:37:10.159 Blaming themselves number one or most of the time is these external circumstances. 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:13.329 Well, it's because they're tired because they're overworked because the holidays 00:37:13.349 --> 00:37:14.659 are around because it's tax season. 00:37:14.659 --> 00:37:15.269 You know, you name it. 00:37:15.729 --> 00:37:17.429 So I'll give you a scenario. 00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:18.949 We'll just call them Emily and Alex. 00:37:18.949 --> 00:37:20.349 Emily's in a relationship with Alex. 00:37:20.409 --> 00:37:21.749 Alex is emotionally immature. 00:37:22.094 --> 00:37:23.884 Totally operating from this place of a false self. 00:37:23.944 --> 00:37:26.224 He just changes no more dropping of hats. 00:37:26.244 --> 00:37:29.644 But at the change of the tides, the wind, the wind blows. 00:37:29.894 --> 00:37:31.854 Alex can also be charming and affectionate. 00:37:31.954 --> 00:37:36.194 I talked with him many times and he can make these just grand gestures of love. 00:37:36.584 --> 00:37:40.624 But those periods are interspersed with times where he is cold, he is 00:37:40.624 --> 00:37:42.194 critical, and he's verbally abusive. 00:37:42.734 --> 00:37:44.864 when I would talk with him, he was, Oh, you're right, 00:37:44.934 --> 00:37:46.054 Tony, I got to knock that off. 00:37:46.054 --> 00:37:46.784 I got to get better. 00:37:47.084 --> 00:37:48.914 And then that would make him feel better. 00:37:49.104 --> 00:37:49.744 I'm going to work on it. 00:37:50.224 --> 00:37:51.934 And if I would push, well, what does that mean? 00:37:52.104 --> 00:37:52.734 What are you going to do? 00:37:52.744 --> 00:37:53.784 What do you do when you get home tonight? 00:37:53.784 --> 00:37:54.644 What do you do tomorrow? 00:37:54.984 --> 00:37:56.254 He's I said, I'm going to work on it. 00:37:56.504 --> 00:38:00.884 And it was, you could watch how he would get what he does with this discomfort, but 00:38:00.884 --> 00:38:02.384 he was in my office to try to get better. 00:38:02.384 --> 00:38:06.044 So we would sit with that discomfort and I wouldn't explain that. 00:38:06.294 --> 00:38:09.154 That saying, I'll do better alleviates our discomfort and it might even make 00:38:09.154 --> 00:38:11.364 our spouse feel good in that moment. 00:38:11.854 --> 00:38:14.734 So then you're going to feel like now I don't need to do anything. 00:38:14.734 --> 00:38:15.104 I'm good. 00:38:15.104 --> 00:38:18.594 I'm going to work on it, but you have to actually do the work time. 00:38:18.954 --> 00:38:23.154 Time may heal a wound, but time doesn't necessarily develop skills. 00:38:23.194 --> 00:38:25.974 You have to do things to develop those skills. 00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:28.040 So Emily, in this scenario, just found herself on this 00:38:28.470 --> 00:38:30.280 huge emotional roller coaster. 00:38:30.290 --> 00:38:34.460 We would say that her roller coaster was a pretty fun and also scary time. 00:38:34.470 --> 00:38:36.770 The good times are so good that she's willing to endure these bad 00:38:36.770 --> 00:38:39.130 times, always hoping to recapture these moments of connection. 00:38:39.130 --> 00:38:40.640 So she starts to doubt her own perception. 00:38:40.640 --> 00:38:43.420 She wonders if she's overreacting to the negative aspects. 00:38:43.420 --> 00:38:48.550 And then who does she go to, to try to clarify and see if she's crazy? 00:38:48.690 --> 00:38:49.360 She goes, Alex. 00:38:49.420 --> 00:38:50.990 And he says, yeah, you are crazy. 00:38:50.990 --> 00:38:51.490 I'm fine. 00:38:51.780 --> 00:38:52.880 I just said I was sorry. 00:38:53.715 --> 00:38:56.265 So over time, she is caught up in that trauma bond. 00:38:56.375 --> 00:39:00.575 She feels this deep attachment despite the pain that that relationship causes her. 00:39:00.955 --> 00:39:03.895 And then she finds it hard to leave even when her friends or family, 00:39:03.925 --> 00:39:07.195 people express concern because she's become addicted to the cycle of 00:39:07.205 --> 00:39:08.645 intermittent positive reinforcement. 00:39:09.475 --> 00:39:11.985 And I want to throw a, there's a concept I've never talked about before. 00:39:11.985 --> 00:39:12.875 It's, it's fascinating. 00:39:12.875 --> 00:39:14.205 It's called identity diffusion. 00:39:14.645 --> 00:39:17.975 And it's this psychological state that's characterized by. 00:39:18.305 --> 00:39:22.395 This lack of a coherent or stable sense of self, it was by the 00:39:22.395 --> 00:39:24.375 legendary psychologist, Eric Erickson. 00:39:24.375 --> 00:39:27.615 And then there was a guy named Otto Kernberg that did a lot of work with this, 00:39:27.875 --> 00:39:30.365 and he worked with personality disorders. 00:39:30.645 --> 00:39:33.835 So now we're starting to get our toe into the water of this false 00:39:33.845 --> 00:39:37.385 self and how the emotionally mature narcissist shows up this way. 00:39:37.575 --> 00:39:42.185 So the key features of this identity diffusion are an inconsistent self image. 00:39:42.530 --> 00:39:46.930 A lack of commitment to personal values or goals a difficulty describing oneself. 00:39:47.120 --> 00:39:50.020 They find themselves in unstable relationships, and then they just 00:39:50.020 --> 00:39:51.780 have this feeling of inner emptiness. 00:39:52.310 --> 00:39:56.120 So examples of identity diffusion, things like career and decision, think 00:39:56.120 --> 00:39:59.620 of somebody who constantly changes their career aspirations one week, they're 00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:02.320 going to be a lawyer, the next they are convinced they should be an artist, 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.590 but every time they really believe that is their true calling in that moment. 00:40:06.260 --> 00:40:09.130 And I know I mentioned that the work of this Otto Kernberg 00:40:09.150 --> 00:40:10.370 was with personality disorders. 00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:12.470 So I worry now that if you are listening to this, you're saying, 00:40:12.600 --> 00:40:13.790 Oh, my gosh, I do those things. 00:40:14.245 --> 00:40:15.415 Does that mean I have a personality disorder? 00:40:15.415 --> 00:40:17.095 Oh, no, this is the identity diffusion. 00:40:17.425 --> 00:40:21.095 This is the thing that's starting to be important to understand to know. 00:40:21.095 --> 00:40:24.195 Number one, that you're normal, but then this is part of if you 00:40:24.215 --> 00:40:27.655 didn't have this stability growing up, or you weren't really modeled 00:40:28.025 --> 00:40:29.275 how to be in touch with yourself. 00:40:29.275 --> 00:40:29.935 Trust your gut. 00:40:30.275 --> 00:40:32.175 If you didn't have a secure attachment with the parents, you 00:40:32.175 --> 00:40:35.235 could go and explore the world and try to figure out who you are. 00:40:35.535 --> 00:40:38.445 Then this identity diffusion is going to make it feel like, man, 00:40:38.445 --> 00:40:40.525 I do go one way or the next. 00:40:40.535 --> 00:40:43.825 I can, change my hopes and dreams , in any moment. 00:40:44.145 --> 00:40:44.955 And so that's normal. 00:40:44.955 --> 00:40:46.125 That's this identity diffusion. 00:40:46.525 --> 00:40:48.415 It also plays out in relationship instability. 00:40:48.445 --> 00:40:50.645 Your feelings about your partner might fluctuate wildly. 00:40:50.655 --> 00:40:52.505 Sometimes you're certain that they're soulmates. 00:40:52.525 --> 00:40:55.105 Other times you feel like there's really not a connection because that 00:40:55.105 --> 00:40:59.995 perception of the relationship is based off of your mood, how you are feeling. 00:41:00.675 --> 00:41:03.455 And then when I mentioned the value inconsistency, I find that most 00:41:03.455 --> 00:41:06.225 people don't really understand or know what their core values are. 00:41:06.235 --> 00:41:09.265 They have these values from their parents or their church community. 00:41:09.565 --> 00:41:12.615 And if I tap back into the acceptance and commitment therapy world, if 00:41:12.625 --> 00:41:17.205 you are acting in a way that is inconsistent with what your core values 00:41:17.205 --> 00:41:18.360 are, , what we're doing is we're. 00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:21.140 Driven by these socially compliant goals, things I think I'm supposed to 00:41:21.140 --> 00:41:25.680 do because that's, I guess that's what I'm supposed to think or feel, but if 00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:30.180 I'm driven by these socially compliant goals, then I'm going against my own 00:41:30.180 --> 00:41:34.380 sense of self, I'm living this life of experiential avoidance where I will 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:38.430 do anything first, other than these things that I guess I'm supposed to do. 00:41:39.140 --> 00:41:43.630 So that goes against your own process of becoming so value inconsistent values. 00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.470 I remember a client once who, you know, strong advocate for environmental 00:41:47.470 --> 00:41:50.460 causes one month, and then the next minute really doesn't seem to show 00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:55.080 much interest in, and then becomes passionate about economic policies that 00:41:55.570 --> 00:41:56.990 ironically might harm the environment. 00:41:57.100 --> 00:41:58.890 This was a based off of a true story. 00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:02.500 And it was interesting because in the rapport building phase I attached pretty 00:42:02.500 --> 00:42:07.170 heavily to this person's desire to help the climate and environmental causes. 00:42:07.170 --> 00:42:11.440 So then they were, I mapped them in my mind relationship with 00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:12.830 them, that was important to them. 00:42:12.850 --> 00:42:15.260 And then I continued to bring things up about the environment. 00:42:15.530 --> 00:42:18.290 And then later they said, I didn't realize you were such an environmentalist. 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:23.170 And because they talked about these political parts of them that went 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:27.770 against what they had first brought into the sessions, which leads to this 00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:30.050 concept of a more malleable personality. 00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:33.900 So this is where people start to be a different person, depending on who 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:37.070 they're with, with outgoing friends, they're the life of the party with 00:42:37.070 --> 00:42:38.510 intellectual types, they're very serious. 00:42:38.510 --> 00:42:39.570 very philosophical. 00:42:40.100 --> 00:42:42.470 they're not consciously pretending in each context. 00:42:42.470 --> 00:42:44.480 They genuinely feel like that's who they are. 00:42:45.260 --> 00:42:47.060 So then we hit this intersection. 00:42:47.060 --> 00:42:50.520 I think of identity, diffusion, emotional immaturity, and the false self. 00:42:51.115 --> 00:42:51.625 Oh, my. 00:42:52.205 --> 00:42:54.985 So an emotionally immature person operating from this false self, 00:42:54.995 --> 00:42:59.605 particularly one who is experiencing this identity diffusion, likely does believe 00:42:59.635 --> 00:43:01.515 that their own narrative in that moment. 00:43:02.065 --> 00:43:06.245 They feel like this is who I am right now, but they don't even understand 00:43:06.255 --> 00:43:10.335 that position can change in any given moment, depending on the person that 00:43:10.335 --> 00:43:16.785 walks in the room, that depends on the story that they see on the news or 00:43:16.785 --> 00:43:19.615 show that they watch , it can change. 00:43:20.355 --> 00:43:24.565 And that really signifies this lack of psychological flexibility. 00:43:25.175 --> 00:43:28.635 And that means that their truth can shift rapidly based on their emotional 00:43:28.635 --> 00:43:30.255 state and their immediate circumstances. 00:43:30.915 --> 00:43:34.025 And what we all experience on the outside is it looks like this 00:43:34.025 --> 00:43:37.725 person is incredibly emotionally inconsistent or they are telling lies. 00:43:38.405 --> 00:43:41.075 So the person though, in their mind, isn't necessarily lying. 00:43:41.085 --> 00:43:44.175 Instead, their perception of reality changes to align with their current 00:43:44.175 --> 00:43:45.695 emotional state and their needs. 00:43:46.095 --> 00:43:50.220 And this explains why they can seem so convincing in one moment and you 00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:52.280 genuinely believe what they're saying. 00:43:52.790 --> 00:43:55.160 So let's break down this false self even further. 00:43:56.090 --> 00:43:59.400 What that comes with is a lack of a stable core identity because of 00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.300 this identity diffusion, because they can change at any given moment. 00:44:02.600 --> 00:44:04.980 The person lacks a consistent internal reference point. 00:44:05.145 --> 00:44:08.865 There's no like home base, their sense of self, their values, their beliefs 00:44:08.865 --> 00:44:12.985 can shift dramatically based on external factors and internal emotional states. 00:44:13.105 --> 00:44:15.545 So I hope that you can start to see we're laying this groundwork 00:44:15.855 --> 00:44:19.755 of why it can seem like the person that you are in a relationship 00:44:19.755 --> 00:44:21.875 with or that you interact with. 00:44:22.110 --> 00:44:24.090 Just changes immediately. 00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:25.750 And you are left feeling confused. 00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:28.230 And then if you're trying to be in a relationship with this 00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:31.430 person, you are going to feel like nothing you do is enough. 00:44:31.470 --> 00:44:32.410 You never get it right. 00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:37.170 When in reality, that person doesn't, they lack this just core sense of self, the 00:44:37.170 --> 00:44:39.380 stability, this emotional consistency. 00:44:39.645 --> 00:44:43.675 But then they are interacting with you and then basically they are 00:44:43.675 --> 00:44:45.505 needing you to make them feel better. 00:44:45.555 --> 00:44:48.285 So you have to validate who they think that they are, even if 00:44:48.285 --> 00:44:49.245 that's not what you're seeing. 00:44:49.755 --> 00:44:53.935 And that is a difficult thing to do because it's hard to sound really 00:44:53.945 --> 00:44:56.835 engaged, excited, and grounded when you're trying to validate a version 00:44:56.835 --> 00:44:58.915 of somebody that you don't experience. 00:45:00.165 --> 00:45:03.270 So example client at one point was telling their spouse, Let's 00:45:03.270 --> 00:45:05.770 say on a Monday, you know, I've always dreamed of settling down. 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:06.830 I want to have a big family. 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.820 By Friday, they just said, you know, I've never really seen 00:45:09.830 --> 00:45:11.220 myself as a settling down type. 00:45:11.640 --> 00:45:12.380 I'm a rambler. 00:45:12.410 --> 00:45:17.240 I need freedom to travel and explore, but in both instances, she honestly believed 00:45:17.970 --> 00:45:19.660 that was who she was in that moment. 00:45:20.195 --> 00:45:23.795 And then when we talk about their, the emotional state dictates the reality 00:45:24.075 --> 00:45:27.255 without a core stable sense of self, that person's current emotional state 00:45:27.255 --> 00:45:30.645 becomes the primary factor in shaping their perception of reality, how they 00:45:30.645 --> 00:45:34.795 feel in that moment, and again, that can depend on what they hear, read. 00:45:34.835 --> 00:45:37.185 You'll see somebody that watches a Netflix documentary. 00:45:37.215 --> 00:45:39.125 Now they're a vegan, then they watch another one. 00:45:39.165 --> 00:45:42.425 And now, as long as it's a farm to table or fork or, now I'm 00:45:42.425 --> 00:45:44.065 in, give me that grass fed beef. 00:45:44.185 --> 00:45:46.065 And so it can just shift back and forth. 00:45:46.065 --> 00:45:46.445 Yeah. 00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.760 But in that moment, they really believe this is who I am. 00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:54.330 And they could argue that just vehemently because that is, they feel that way. 00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:56.920 That is exactly who they are and how dare you think that they're anybody. 00:45:56.920 --> 00:46:01.250 Otherwise, I think of an example of it was a dad and let's say what he 00:46:01.250 --> 00:46:04.590 felt when he felt happy and secure, Oh, his relationship was perfect. 00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:05.890 His wife was flawless. 00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:07.870 Then when he felt anxious or insecure. 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:10.880 Then the relationship, I'm not sure if it's going to work. 00:46:11.330 --> 00:46:14.290 And his spouse was uncaring, his perception of this same 00:46:14.290 --> 00:46:17.150 relationship changed dramatically based on his emotional state yet. 00:46:17.150 --> 00:46:18.190 He could not see that. 00:46:18.330 --> 00:46:21.330 that concept of the, the person's immediate circumstances, 00:46:21.340 --> 00:46:22.750 shaping their self perception. 00:46:22.877 --> 00:46:25.677 If you break that down, it's that person's view of themselves and 00:46:25.797 --> 00:46:28.417 where they're showing up in their life, or basically how that day is 00:46:28.417 --> 00:46:30.977 going can change rapidly based on. 00:46:31.277 --> 00:46:33.597 In the immediate circumstances, did they get a big bill? 00:46:33.617 --> 00:46:35.877 Did something that they are they running late for work? 00:46:35.877 --> 00:46:39.217 Did they get a flat tire or the social context that they're looking on social 00:46:39.217 --> 00:46:42.087 media and they see that other people are out there living their best lives, 00:46:42.427 --> 00:46:45.247 then all of a sudden they go from, okay, we're saving all our money to 00:46:45.247 --> 00:46:46.667 then we're going on a big vacation. 00:46:47.312 --> 00:46:51.502 And it can just feel so unstable to be in that type of relationship. 00:46:52.112 --> 00:46:56.212 Another example, someone was mentioning at a work event this person saw 00:46:56.212 --> 00:46:59.652 themselves as confident, ambitious, professional with a very clear career 00:46:59.652 --> 00:47:04.262 path, but later they were visiting their family and they had successful 00:47:04.272 --> 00:47:05.742 siblings that made a lot of money. 00:47:05.992 --> 00:47:08.972 And then they said within that same day, they just felt like, okay, I 00:47:08.972 --> 00:47:11.122 am a uncertain directionless child. 00:47:11.152 --> 00:47:13.092 I'm seeking approval from my mom and dad. 00:47:13.542 --> 00:47:18.602 And in both contexts, they said that I felt those things deeply in that moment. 00:47:19.542 --> 00:47:22.682 And this, convincing nature of these shifting truths, because the 00:47:22.682 --> 00:47:25.742 person really believes that their current narrative is real, they 00:47:25.742 --> 00:47:27.092 can appear extremely convincing. 00:47:27.302 --> 00:47:29.582 They're not deliberately trying to deceive others. 00:47:30.172 --> 00:47:33.122 But when they are expressing themselves or what feels true to them in that 00:47:33.122 --> 00:47:36.652 moment, you have to think about this concept of creating memory as well. 00:47:36.672 --> 00:47:39.512 So they have this memory or this thought of what they want to be. 00:47:39.512 --> 00:47:42.652 And now in order to even justify or convince themselves, now 00:47:42.652 --> 00:47:43.662 they're packing that memory. 00:47:43.662 --> 00:47:46.565 with all of these things that are going to go along with to convince themselves 00:47:46.565 --> 00:47:48.065 that, no, this is really who I am. 00:47:48.585 --> 00:47:50.195 This example we'll call her Sarah. 00:47:50.655 --> 00:47:53.155 She tells her friend on a Tuesday, I'm breaking up with Tom. 00:47:53.635 --> 00:47:54.905 We are so incompatible. 00:47:55.325 --> 00:47:57.415 And she is crying and she's. 00:47:57.750 --> 00:47:58.230 Absolutely. 00:47:58.230 --> 00:48:00.770 Certain we're done on Wednesday. 00:48:00.830 --> 00:48:04.040 She's back telling a friend, we had an amazing talk and he 00:48:04.260 --> 00:48:05.300 turns out he is my soulmate. 00:48:05.470 --> 00:48:10.170 He's the one for me and her enthusiasm and conviction were just as strong. 00:48:10.170 --> 00:48:13.420 This person said in both of those conversations that were so polar 00:48:13.420 --> 00:48:15.090 opposite, just a couple of days apart. 00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:18.610 So I hope this kind of understanding helps explain why emotionally immature 00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:22.770 individuals seem so inconsistent, but they also seem sincere. 00:48:22.869 --> 00:48:26.839 their identity of fusion means they lack a stable core self and without a stable 00:48:26.839 --> 00:48:30.549 core self they really have no anchor to their perceptions and their behaviors. 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:31.649 So they will change. 00:48:32.189 --> 00:48:34.979 And instead, they just continually reconstruct their sense of self and 00:48:35.019 --> 00:48:39.839 reality based on the current state of emotions that they are feeling and 00:48:39.839 --> 00:48:41.999 circumstances that they're experiencing. 00:48:42.769 --> 00:48:45.889 But then for the partner, the friend of these people, it's so confusing and 00:48:45.889 --> 00:48:48.629 it's so frustrating and it's important to remember that while the person may 00:48:48.629 --> 00:48:52.639 not be intentionally lying, that that shifting perception, it can be harmful 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.539 to relationships and it can indicate a need for professional help to develop 00:48:57.539 --> 00:49:01.479 a more integrated sense of self and an improved emotional regulation. 00:49:01.779 --> 00:49:04.589 And I really like talking about two of my favorite things, whole object 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.409 relations and object constancy, because I think they fit in here well too. 00:49:07.749 --> 00:49:12.409 So whole object relations this is this concept and it was developed by this 00:49:12.409 --> 00:49:16.039 person, Melanie Klein and there were these other object relations theorists 00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:19.629 back in the day as well, but it's the ability to see oneself and others. 00:49:19.874 --> 00:49:24.504 As whole complex beings, entire people with both positive and negative qualities. 00:49:24.584 --> 00:49:28.784 So if you are a human, then you are going to have all kinds of qualities and traits. 00:49:29.024 --> 00:49:31.844 in healthy development, a person learns to integrate both those 00:49:31.854 --> 00:49:36.024 good and bad aspects of themselves and others into a whole person. 00:49:36.074 --> 00:49:38.744 So they understand that people including themselves can have 00:49:38.754 --> 00:49:40.374 both positive and negative traits. 00:49:40.689 --> 00:49:44.499 All at the same time, because those things can shift and change at a given moment 00:49:44.509 --> 00:49:48.059 based off of what is going on in their lives or how people are experiencing them. 00:49:48.759 --> 00:49:52.119 Now, people with narcissistic traits or extreme emotional maturity, what 00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:55.209 they struggle with is this concept of low object relations, because 00:49:55.209 --> 00:49:58.309 they start to see themselves, they see others in black and white terms. 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.369 So it's either all good or it's all bad. 00:50:00.579 --> 00:50:02.289 Sometimes people refer to that as splitting. 00:50:02.919 --> 00:50:05.919 So the example is somebody more narcissistic. 00:50:05.959 --> 00:50:08.329 They might view their partner as perfect when they get what they 00:50:08.329 --> 00:50:11.789 want, but then of course they are entirely bad when they are faced 00:50:11.789 --> 00:50:13.809 with any disappointment or criticism. 00:50:13.889 --> 00:50:15.719 It can be as easy as somebody just saying no. 00:50:15.769 --> 00:50:17.399 And all of a sudden you are horrible. 00:50:17.449 --> 00:50:20.619 They burn the village down and this is where that concept comes in of, 00:50:20.649 --> 00:50:23.519 then that person may five minutes later feel better about themselves. 00:50:23.969 --> 00:50:25.979 And now they want to go ride bikes. 00:50:26.314 --> 00:50:29.044 They might've just told you you're a horrible spouse and 00:50:29.044 --> 00:50:30.274 called you some bad names. 00:50:30.284 --> 00:50:32.904 And then they leave the room, you're devastated, but now they feel 00:50:32.904 --> 00:50:34.134 better because they got that out. 00:50:34.524 --> 00:50:36.104 And they come back in and say, Hey, what's for dinner. 00:50:36.374 --> 00:50:39.314 In essence, do you want to go on a bike ride as if nothing ever happened? 00:50:40.114 --> 00:50:42.234 And then what goes with whole object relations is this concept 00:50:42.234 --> 00:50:43.404 of called object constancy. 00:50:43.404 --> 00:50:46.894 So that's the ability to then maintain a positive emotional connection to a person. 00:50:47.284 --> 00:50:51.144 When they're out of sight or during conflicts, because this involves 00:50:51.144 --> 00:50:54.624 understanding that relationships and people's core qualities remain stable, 00:50:54.864 --> 00:50:56.294 even when the circumstances change. 00:50:56.324 --> 00:51:00.944 Now, the irony is that stability within the emotionally immature 00:51:00.944 --> 00:51:03.494 person is the unchanging nature. 00:51:03.824 --> 00:51:04.504 Of themselves. 00:51:04.514 --> 00:51:07.464 So it's accepting the fact that, Oh yeah, this person is all over the map. 00:51:07.944 --> 00:51:10.684 The people with healthy object constancy, they can then weather these 00:51:10.684 --> 00:51:14.454 conflicts and relationships because they maintain an internal sense 00:51:14.534 --> 00:51:15.844 of an overall positive connection. 00:51:15.854 --> 00:51:18.534 Even when they're momentarily upset, they stay grounded and 00:51:18.534 --> 00:51:21.114 they can understand that, okay, this person's going through it. 00:51:21.764 --> 00:51:24.834 So those with these narcissistic traits or the extreme emotional 00:51:24.834 --> 00:51:27.214 immaturity they lack object constancy. 00:51:27.484 --> 00:51:29.444 They might experience these Intense. 00:51:30.214 --> 00:51:34.374 feelings of anxiety when separated from a loved one or completely devalue a 00:51:34.374 --> 00:51:36.064 relationship when there's a conflict. 00:51:36.754 --> 00:51:38.964 An emotionally immature person, they might feel like their partner 00:51:38.964 --> 00:51:41.494 doesn't love them anymore just because they had a minor disagreement. 00:51:41.994 --> 00:51:42.774 Wrapping things up. 00:51:43.024 --> 00:51:46.634 How do these concepts then relate to Narcissism and 00:51:46.634 --> 00:51:47.794 extreme emotional immaturity. 00:51:48.154 --> 00:51:51.324 It's that fluctuating self image because without these whole object relations, the 00:51:51.324 --> 00:51:55.464 narcissist or the emotionally immature person's self image fluctuates wildly. 00:51:55.474 --> 00:51:56.204 It's all over the map. 00:51:56.314 --> 00:52:00.184 They might feel grandiose one moment and worthless the next, and they're unable to 00:52:00.184 --> 00:52:04.759 integrate these experiences into a stable self concept and, Moreover, they want you 00:52:05.139 --> 00:52:06.389 to tell them they're going to be okay. 00:52:06.439 --> 00:52:08.219 And you're probably not going to get that right if they're not 00:52:08.219 --> 00:52:09.239 feeling good about themselves. 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:12.079 But now they're basically saying, Hey, now you make me feel better. 00:52:12.139 --> 00:52:15.029 And when you don't get that right, they get to say, you don't care about them. 00:52:15.869 --> 00:52:17.629 And that is part of this. 00:52:18.429 --> 00:52:20.659 What leads to these unstable relationships, you know, that 00:52:20.659 --> 00:52:23.419 lack of object constancy leads to extremely unstable relationships. 00:52:23.419 --> 00:52:26.599 The person might idealize their partner one day, devalue them the next. 00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:29.469 They can't maintain that consistent positive connection. 00:52:30.019 --> 00:52:33.699 And that will cause some emotional volatility, because without this 00:52:33.699 --> 00:52:38.979 ability to see themselves and others as completely whole, complex beings, then 00:52:39.029 --> 00:52:42.819 That emotionally immature person is going to react intensely to a perceived slight 00:52:42.859 --> 00:52:47.349 or criticism because it attacks and there threatens their fragile self image. 00:52:47.959 --> 00:52:51.889 And this is a lot of this is based off of the good old childhood fear of 00:52:51.889 --> 00:52:55.679 abandonment, or object constancy leads to this intense fear of abandonment. 00:52:56.019 --> 00:53:00.509 And they feel like the only way they can keep you around is control coercion. 00:53:01.154 --> 00:53:04.134 So because of that intense fear of abandonment is the person struggles 00:53:04.134 --> 00:53:05.464 to maintain the sense of connection. 00:53:05.984 --> 00:53:08.464 When they're not in direct contact with you, they are 00:53:08.474 --> 00:53:09.874 going to try to manipulate you. 00:53:10.434 --> 00:53:15.094 And I think it goes without saying that also would lead to a lack of 00:53:15.094 --> 00:53:19.074 empathy because the inability to see somebody else's whole as complex. 00:53:19.514 --> 00:53:21.784 It's going to impair their empathy because it's hard to understand 00:53:21.784 --> 00:53:25.014 other's perspectives when you can't hold onto both the positive and the 00:53:25.014 --> 00:53:26.794 negative qualities at the same time. 00:53:27.214 --> 00:53:29.574 So I really think that understanding those concepts, the whole object 00:53:29.584 --> 00:53:34.794 relations, the object constancy, it can help explain what feels just nutty 00:53:34.874 --> 00:53:38.504 baffling behavior of the narcissist or the extremely emotionally immature person. 00:53:38.984 --> 00:53:41.854 So their lack of whole object relations and object constancy means their 00:53:41.854 --> 00:53:43.514 perception of themselves and others. 00:53:44.299 --> 00:53:47.369 Back to today's theme can shift dramatically based on the immediate 00:53:47.369 --> 00:53:51.559 circumstances and emotional states and all of this ties back to the earlier 00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:56.599 discussion about everything from identity diffusion, having this just not 00:53:56.609 --> 00:53:58.399 knowing who you are and this false self. 00:53:58.844 --> 00:54:02.854 the lack of whole object relations and object constancy, it contributes 00:54:02.854 --> 00:54:05.904 to this unstable sense of self and the reality that characterizes 00:54:05.954 --> 00:54:07.114 the emotionally immature person. 00:54:07.534 --> 00:54:10.724 It helps to explain why they can seem so convincing in their shifting 00:54:10.724 --> 00:54:13.314 truths and each moment they're experiencing a fragmented version of 00:54:13.324 --> 00:54:15.674 reality, but it feels so real to them. 00:54:16.214 --> 00:54:21.314 So then recognizing these patterns, I think is so crucial for you. 00:54:21.354 --> 00:54:25.154 If you are waking up to this, or if you're interacting with people that are 00:54:25.154 --> 00:54:27.824 exhibiting these traits, these patterns. 00:54:28.324 --> 00:54:30.864 Because whether that's in your personal relationship or it's 00:54:30.864 --> 00:54:34.714 in the therapeutic setting that there's this, these deep seated. 00:54:35.114 --> 00:54:41.524 Issues and this need to really self explore um, self confront. 00:54:41.524 --> 00:54:43.214 So what did we learn today? 00:54:43.414 --> 00:54:47.374 Hopefully it's probably been a lot, but hopefully you, you've picked up 00:54:47.374 --> 00:54:51.414 a lot of concepts that maybe feel familiar in your relationships, but 00:54:51.414 --> 00:54:54.864 that false self is really this place that somebody is operating from that 00:54:54.874 --> 00:54:58.264 does not know who they are and they need you to make them feel better. 00:54:58.814 --> 00:55:00.434 And that isn't your job. 00:55:00.964 --> 00:55:04.524 And you can lose your own sense of self in this whole process. 00:55:05.169 --> 00:55:09.439 Burning up a lot of emotional calories and time in particular, time that could 00:55:09.449 --> 00:55:11.069 be spent on figuring out who you are. 00:55:11.439 --> 00:55:15.179 In a healthy differentiated relationship, you're able to maintain a connection 00:55:15.179 --> 00:55:19.489 with somebody while holding on to yourself while developing your own 00:55:19.669 --> 00:55:21.489 sense of independence and autonomy. 00:55:21.919 --> 00:55:26.649 And as you choose yourself, now you are choosing your partner in the relationship. 00:55:26.959 --> 00:55:29.919 And now you're two completely different people going through life 00:55:29.919 --> 00:55:34.269 for the very first time, having shared experiences with a lot of curiosity. 00:55:34.474 --> 00:55:36.594 And then that really is intimacy. 00:55:36.724 --> 00:55:37.524 That's a connection. 00:55:38.244 --> 00:55:42.434 We think that we are wanting intimacy, but when we're in our 00:55:42.524 --> 00:55:46.414 more immature selves, what we really are looking for is validation. 00:55:46.424 --> 00:55:48.354 And we have to get off of that validation train. 00:55:48.374 --> 00:55:49.714 It's good to have that. 00:55:49.714 --> 00:55:53.194 When I feel good about myself, then if somebody is wanting to give me 00:55:53.194 --> 00:55:54.544 a compliment, it can feel nice. 00:55:55.024 --> 00:55:57.974 But that isn't why, that isn't what I'm, why I'm doing what I'm doing. 00:55:57.974 --> 00:55:59.544 It's not to seek the validation. 00:56:00.014 --> 00:56:03.874 I would love your thoughts, your questions, your comments, your examples. 00:56:03.874 --> 00:56:05.964 Please send them in through Tony overbay. 00:56:06.014 --> 00:56:08.924 com or you can send them directly to contact the Tony overbay. 00:56:08.924 --> 00:56:11.304 com, but I appreciate you taking the time. 00:56:11.324 --> 00:56:13.254 Thanks for the support for the podcast. 00:56:13.254 --> 00:56:16.314 I hope that this has helped you understand a little bit more about 00:56:16.324 --> 00:56:19.224 why it can be so confusing to be in these relationships with people that, 00:56:19.544 --> 00:56:21.354 that really don't know who they are. 00:56:21.534 --> 00:56:24.254 And if you find that you are one of those people that doesn't know who 00:56:24.264 --> 00:56:27.674 you are and you made it this far, I know that you were on your way to 00:56:27.674 --> 00:56:30.724 really figure it out who you are and how you show up in your relationships. 00:56:30.994 --> 00:56:31.524 Keep on going. 00:56:31.544 --> 00:56:32.644 You're right where you need to be. 00:56:33.094 --> 00:56:35.434 And you're not crazy, you're broken, you're human. 00:56:35.914 --> 00:56:38.109 And we'll see you next week on waking up to narcissism.