The following is based on an all too true story.
So picture this, you've got Farrah, she's sitting on her couch, she's scrolling
through her phone for probably her hundredth time today, and her thumb
hovers over the name Gil in her contacts.
And she knows she shouldn't call him, she shouldn't text him, but
that urge is just overwhelming.
And it's been there for about three months since Gil abruptly ended, Their
two year relationship, three months of emotional turmoil of questioning
every single moment that they shared of wondering, was any of it real at all?
Did he really care or what did I do wrong?
Now, meanwhile, Gil seems to have moved on pretty effortlessly.
He's already in a new relationship that he is flaunting all over social media.
So Farrah's friends keep telling her that she's better off without him.
But why does she just keep wanting to go back to Gil?
Now the more distance that she gets from the relationship, she does realize how
surface level Gil's affection really was.
He never really asked her questions, never asked her about her dreams
or her hopes or fears or childhood.
He was charming and he was attentive when it suited him.
But then he was distant and he was cold when she needed more emotional support.
And now that there's the breakup, he's done a complete discard and he's actually
doing things that he said he would never do with Farrah with this new girl.
Despite Farrah's growing awareness, she finds herself just starting
to compose yet another text.
And even with the help of her therapist, some of these texts don't
get sent, some of them get sent to friends, some of them get deleted,
but some of them she does send.
So she says, I miss you.
Can we talk?
Then she deletes it, then she types it again, then she deletes it one more time.
Because the rational part of her brain knows that Gill was not good for her.
But her heart just aches for the connection.
However toxic it might have been.
And it's as if she just feels like she just needs to talk.
To just interact with him in order to know that she matters or to try to be able to
make sense of things, or she's looking for the cliched closure because her brain
is desperately trying to say, if I can make sense of this, then I can move on.
And she's taken an undue amount of blame herself.
Again, the brain, how adorable, is saying that if it is my fault, then I can fix it.
Because what if it's not my fault?
What if it's more Gil's fault?
Then does that mean that there was nothing I could have done?
And that can start to feel pretty helpless.
So then last week in a moment of weakness, Farrah calls Gil.
And she's begging him to reconsider, to give their relationship another chance.
And his response was cold, it was dismissive.
He says, we're done, Farrah, move on.
And those words really should have been the final nail in the
coffin of their relationship.
But instead They just made her longing more intense.
They made her just think about him even more.
So why is it so hard for Farrah to let go?
Why does she keep reaching out to somebody who clearly treated her
as an object rather than a person?
Nobody should have to beg somebody to love them.
And how can Gil move on so quickly while she's still stuck
in this emotional quicksand?
So today we're going to delve into the complex psychology behind toxic
relationships, good old emotional immaturity, and the struggles of
breaking free from unhealthy attachments.
But more so, I want to introduce you to a concept of the false self, and why that's
important to understand, whether you are the person who is waking up to your
own emotional immaturity, even, dare I say, narcissistic traits and tendencies.
Or if you're more of that pathologically kind person, or the highly sensitive
person or shall we even go out on a limb today and say the more emotionally mature
person in the relationship, and I know that I'm not saying that you're perfect,
because I'm sure that that's what you would say if you were in my office, and I
get that, but the person who's really been trying to figure out your relationship,
, do you actually know who you are deeply?
Or are you continually trying to be whoever everybody else needs you to be?
And that might even be currently what feels like your superpower,
but is it sustainable?
Is it really unlocking your personal power?
Are you continually feeling like you're not quite where you want to be or
thought that you would be in your life?
Are you starting to feel like you're just, whatever you do is not quite enough
that people are taking advantage of you?
Whenever you try to step back for a little bit of raising your emotional baseline, me
time, it feels like the world falls apart.
And now all of a sudden you've got to go back in and put out these fires.
So the good news is that you are normal, you're human, and you are right where
you need to be to start to learn more about how to find your true self.
So in order to get to that true self, I think it's incredibly important to
understand more about the false self.
We're the place that we all originated from and trying to figure out who we are.
We all got our sense of self from external validation growing up as kids.
And for a lot of us, almost, I'd say most of us were still relying
on that external validation to try to figure out who we are.
And unfortunately, when you're in unhealthy relationships, you're
handing that power or those buttons over to somebody that does not
have your best interest in mind.
The best person to be the best judge of you is you.
So today we're going to explore some concepts that unfortunately are
oldies, but goodies like intermittent reinforcement, AKA the trauma bond.
And I really believe that in understanding more about the false self, you're going
to start to understand how and why intelligent, capable people like Farrah
or possibly like you can find themselves trapped in cycles of toxic love and
toxic shame and what can eventually lead to feelings of regret and feelings of
missed opportunities and the fear that life is just passing by so quickly.
So, whether you're a pharaoh trying to break free from a gill, or maybe
if you're a gill and you're kind of aware of what you're doing to Sarah,
or if you're watching a friend that is either a gill or a pharaoh go through
this struggle, this episode is for you.
So let's unpack this psychology of toxic relationships and hopefully learn
how to break free from their grip and move away from this false self and
really start to figure out who are you?
And what do you do from here?
So welcome to episode 115 of waking up the narcissism.
I am Tony overbay.
I'm your host.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a
certified mindful habit coach.
And please sign up for my newsletter.
That's all I'm asking today.
Go to tonyoverbay.
com.
Sign up for the newsletter.
. And so it's, they're chock full of a lot of good information.
They might have a recap or two from an episode, but there's going
to be some takeaways there that I think that you'll get a lot from.
You can pass them along to friends, family.
So sign up, go to Tony overbay.
com.
That would be a wonderful thing, but let's start with this concept of the false self.
It's really central, I think, to understand the emotional
immaturity and then the impact that that has on relationships.
So this false self is basically it's the mask that we wear to fit in with others
or to protect ourselves, and we often hear about that mask of the narcissist.
So right now we're going to hopefully take away that judgment of the
concept of the mask and just start from a place of there's a point at
which, and maybe it's now, where we all put on a mask in different ways.
Places, different situations when we're speaking with different people, maybe a
work situation, a church situation when we're talking to our elderly grandparents
or whoever that might be it's a way that we try to protect ourselves.
And it's this version of us that we show to the world when we're trying to please
people or really avoid getting hurt.
You can kind of think of it like your public face.
The one that you put on when you're at work or church or meeting new
people, or maybe even with your spouse or your kids or your parents.
And one of the questions I like to ask people when I'm working
with them is, where or when do you actually feel the most authentic
or feel like you are yourself?
Too often the answer is, I'm not really quite sure who I am, or
that answer is never and nowhere.
And , I just want you to know you're not alone.
But this false self, this idea comes from a guy named Donald Winnicott.
He's a psychologist who worked with kids and families back in the day.
He noticed that sometimes people, especially when they're growing
up, create this false self to deal with the world around them.
And here's the thing, the false self isn't all bad.
It can help us navigate social situations.
it can even protect you when you're starting to feel really vulnerable.
But if we rely on it too much, we might lose touch with our true selves.
The real us, that's underneath all of that pretending.
And even if you don't really know who you are, if this is, if you're starting to
have a tiny bit of an existential crisis right now, I want you to just, Step back
for a moment and tap into even the things that you think about and dream about and
hope about, because that is part of that desire that you have to figure out who you
are and the things that you want to do.
I think too often we give up on the concepts of dreaming altogether.
and there's often these, themes, the therapy, and I
swear the one last week was.
Allowing ourselves to dream that I don't think that we do that enough.
And I had someone talk about that when they're in the shower, when
they're by themselves, that they interview themselves almost as if
they were asked at any moment, their opinion on certain things in life.
And they said, okay, is that weird?
And I said, of course, it's not makes perfect sense.
And the irony is that this person found themselves in a situation where
they didn't get asked a question.
And it happened to be a question that they had been.
Practicing, so to speak.
And so they just delivered on it and they said it was one of the highlights
that they had had in a long time.
But back to this false self, the problem is when the false self takes over
and we forget who we really are, it's like we're always playing a character
and we never get to be ourself.
We have to figure out who I am, how do I show up in certain situations?
But what that leads to is oftentimes a feeling of emptiness or leaving
you feeling stressed out or like you're living somebody else's life.
So the goal is to find a balance.
we want to be able to adapt to all kinds of different situations,
but also stay true to ourselves.
So it's really about trying to figure out who you really are
and being okay with that person.
And I think that's one of the biggest challenges, because if we're looking to
others to give us validation, then we're just at the whim of how they're feeling
or the messages that they're sharing.
As we start to develop our real self or start to figure out who we
are, we're going to go interact with the world and people in the world
are not necessarily going to say, Hey, you are showing up different.
I think that's awesome.
They might say, Hey, what's with the new glasses
You think that sure it looks good when you're walking around in public.
So we have to start to learn how to really be okay with that person who we are.
Even if we're not perfect and yes, there will be times or occasions when
you still might find yourself acting or reacting differently, still reaching for
that mass, depending on your audience.
Let me just bring a little bit of awareness to this concept
of emotional consistency.
Let's see.
You doing it on the regular, it really is possible and it can eventually
take far less emotional calories because you're just being you.
You're not trying to figure out who you believe you were supposed to be, or
need to be in the various relationships that you encounter throughout your life.
, I want to give a couple of examples about emotional immaturity, especially for
anybody new to the podcast, I'm grateful that the numbers continue to grow.
And I think we're getting new people all the time.
So I long ago, I made the decision we're talking in the first 10 episodes.
And here we are at episode one 15 to really identify that narcissistic
personality disorder is a real small percentage of the population.
But if you are listening to the zeitgeist, what people are saying just out in the
world, it would feel like 50, 60, 70 percent of human beings are narcissistic.
Everybody's ex everybody's boss.
Maybe everybody's parent.
From that lens, I would love to just bring awareness to the fact that again,
narcissistic personality disorder is a small percentage of the population,
some believe two to four or 5%.
But I would feel very confident saying that we're all emotionally immature
and various areas of our lives.
What is emotional immaturity?
It's basically when somebody's emotional responses and coping
mechanisms don't show up as developed as you'd expect for their age.
It's like their emotional growth got stuck somewhere along the way.
Now, how does that form?
There's a few different ways.
And I think this is part of the normalizing process,
childhood experiences.
If kids don't learn healthy ways to deal with emotions from their parents
or their caregivers, they might not develop these skills properly.
And I will maintain that we're just now starting to talk openly about mental
health and allowing ourselves to feel the feelings and have the emotions, even
to the point of where I noticed that.
I love humor.
It's one of my favorite things, but I still find myself stifling a laugh
at times because I'm not sure if that's okay for me to laugh at certain
things, but if I want to laugh, I need to allow myself to laugh.
It's one of those emotions that we need to make room for and
say, Hey, buddy, come on in.
you're going to have free reign for a little while, and so with that
might come some more intense sadness as well, or some processing grief or
allowing ourselves to really feel.
So I would imagine most people haven't developed those skills properly.
So now is the time.
Another way that emotional maturity forms is trauma.
Difficult experiences can interrupt emotional development in childhood.
And people often do feel like they are halted or stuck at certain
ages or developmental stages based on some of the things that
they've been through in their life.
But I think one of the, also the big reasons is just a lack of practice.
If somebody doesn't have many opportunities to face and work
through challenging emotions, they might not develop emotional maturity.
And we are just so wired to, to avoid and alleviate anything uncomfortable.
But ironically, that discomfort, that uncomfortable place in our life
is where growth occurs, and we can learn to sit with that discomfort.
Now, all of a sudden, we get to feel feelings.
We get to understand who we are and we start to understand the things that
we care about, the things that we are worried about, the things that we fear.
And at times we will find out that, that fear is just, it's a
little bit of a warning signal, but we're going to be okay.
But I think one of the main things that causes emotional immaturity, and I'm
going to throw a bless their hearts label on this because I know that as
a father of four now adult children, I certainly have I guess no, no way to say
it better, but mess them up a little bit.
I'm sure.
But overprotective parenting can lead to emotional immaturity.
You know, when parents shield kids from all the negative experiences,
it can prevent them from learning how to handle tough situations.
But that is so difficult.
It's difficult for me as a parent to say, no, I'm learning to put a pause in.
And when my kids say, Hey, dad, is it okay?
I'm trying to pause and say, and just at least let them finish
the sentence before I say yes.
Versus saying, yeah, yeah, sure.
No problem.
But let me go over.
A few different examples of what emotional immaturity then looks like in adults.
One of the biggest ones is difficulty controlling emotions.
So imagine somebody just bursting into tears, maybe yelling at a coworker for
eating something out of the fridge or using their stapler without asking.
Where it just seems like, whoa, that does not seem like that big of a deal.
Another one is avoiding responsibility.
Somebody consistently showing up late to work, but they always have an excuse.
Yeah, it was traffic or their alarm clock or these are dumb rules anyway,
or we don't do anything right.
When we start work anyway.
So anything other Then acknowledging and taking ownership of their
poor time management skills.
Another one is seeking constant attention.
And here's where you start looking at that emotional immaturity can sure
look a lot like narcissistic traits and tendencies having a little bit of
that vibe of grandiosity of everybody.
I'm amazing.
Look at me.
But this might be somebody that posts on social media just over
and over again, but they're doing it because they're looking for
compliments and looking for validation.
And so then they base their worth off of if people do compliment or validate
I know, and I feel confident that we've moved into the area or the era of social
media, where there are also people that are just posting things because they
do want a connection and they feel like that's their community or they are having,
in essence, a scrapbook of their life.
So I think that you're the only one that really knows am I doing this just
because I want the validation and there are other ways that people seek constant
attention and validation as well.
Poor impulse control is a big sign of emotional immaturity.
I think of a client I had once that impulsively quit job after job with just
little disagreements with their boss, without even considering things like their
financial obligations to their family.
that poor impulse control, is tied directly to being unable to sit
with that discomfort of knowing that there might have been something
they could have done different.
And at their job difficulty with empathy is a pretty big one.
Somebody complaining about, and these are all based off of real examples as well.
But I had a client once that complained about their friend canceling
plans due to a family emergency.
It was a death in their extended family.
And this person came into session and they were very upset because they had had
plans with this person and just how rude that was and how little notice that they
had and we were able to eventually get to this place where there was a bit of
humor with man, how dare their extended family pass away when you had plans
to go to this country music concert.
Another sign of this emotional immaturity in adults is.
All or nothing black or white thinking, this is where you might
interact with somebody who just says their entire day is ruined.
Because their favorite donut shop was closed and they didn't
even know that they were closed.
And at this point now, my whole day is ruined.
They're unable to see any positives in moving forward.
Another sign of emotional maturity is this inability to compromise.
And I think about somebody who just had a real struggle considering
their partner's movie suggestions where they wanted to go to eat and
insisting that, okay, look, I make better choices when it comes to movies.
What we identified was in this situation, the husband just
felt like, what's the point?
I expressed my opinion, then I'm going to be told I'm wrong anyway.
So eventually she would say, what movie do you want to see?
And he might say one, he's like, but I don't know, what are you thinking?
She's like, I really was thinking this other one.
He'd say, that sounds great because he just knew it's not worth the argument.
Difficulty with criticism.
That's a really big one in the world of emotional immaturity.
I think about somebody who this was another work situation, somebody that
they said that they were actually in the position of delivering the performance
review, but where the person just stormed out as soon as they started
to feel a little bit criticized.
And this person said that, man, if they could have just sat there for
about another 15 seconds, they would have gotten to the part where, and
here's the positives and the strengths.
Another sign of emotional maturity is struggling with long term relationships.
And boy, this is the concept these days of ghosting.
how many times I hear people talk about ghosting their friends
whenever they disagree with them.
And so then it leads to this person who has this constantly changing social
circle and they're basically burning the village down behind them everywhere
they go from a friendship standpoint.
And then just overall difficulty dealing with stress.
And I think about somebody that's procrastinating on a project and it's
not even the good kind of procrastination where you get that dopamine dump at the
end and you finish in the nick of time and you say that you work well under
pressure and then you promise that day forward that I'm going to work on things
earlier, which is adorable, but we're talking about the kind where the person
procrastinates on the project and calls in sick that day, the day that it's
due rather than face the consequences.
So there is emotional immaturity.
So why not just do a quick run through as well on what more of the
narcissistic personality disorder looks like, because it is truly,
it is a mental health condition.
It's characterized by an inflated sense of self importance, a deep need for excessive
attention and admiration, and basically a complete lack of empathy for others.
And people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder anything they perceive as any
type of criticism, and that can lead to incredibly difficult relationships.
So examples of narcissistic personality disorder, NPD, we'll use that moving
forward, NPD traits, that grandiose sense of self importance, think of
the person that just constantly brags about being the best salesman in
the company's history, even though you could go look up the numbers and
their performance is pretty average.
You see somebody that talks about that they set records in their high school,
but then if you go back and look in the high school actually does have records
for some reason, they're not mentioned.
Or a preoccupation with these fantasies of unlimited success,
unlimited power, unlimited beauty.
I think of this one client that they just spent just day, daydreaming hours and
hours of daydreaming about becoming this world famous YouTuber despite actually
not having their YouTube channel or their direction year after year after year.
Or belief in their own uniqueness, their own superiority.
I think about a guy that at one point was saying that he only sees the ironically
I learned this because he would only see me as a therapist because I had a popular
podcast and he only sees top tier doctors because he believes his health issues.
They're probably too complex for regular physicians , his case was
actually pretty standard narcissistic personality disorder, vibe in a
relationship or in the world of MPD, that need for constant admiration.
And this is somebody that just continually just boasts and makes
things about them over and over again.
They ruin weddings, wedding receptions they ruin corporate events.
They ruin all kinds of things because they find a way to make it about them.
Or a sense of entitlement.
I remember back in my computer days going out to dinner with someone often who they
expected to be seated immediately, even if they didn't have a reservation, they
felt like they could always get their way.
They felt like they could just bully their way into situations and they would
cause scenes when they were told to wait.
unfortunately, oftentimes their behavior was rewarded.
So they felt see, that's how you get things done.
I am very then interpersonal exploitation.
This is where you find some people in the workplace that befriend co workers
just to get them to cover their shifts and then they don't reciprocate.
They discard relationships once that relationship is no longer useful.
And then they might come back around and try to be friends with that person again,
when they need someone, a lack of empathy.
There was a client that I worked with a while ago where when his wife
shares that she's stressed about work he then would just change the
subject to talk about his own day.
And it was almost like he felt like her, whatever she said was the cue for
him to now share a story about himself.
And he could not wrap his head around that in the couple sessions at all.
And that's one of those where you just watch somebody who
doesn't know what they don't know.
And they're not even sure that they understand why we're continuing to have
this conversation and we were trying to use my beloved four pillars and have him
truly understand and hear his spouse.
But he was saying, no, I heard her.
Say this is her day.
So then I'm going to tell her about my day.
And we tried to even introduce the concepts of curiosity and he's yeah,
but I know what, when, based on what she told me, I already know how her
whole day went, I can guarantee I could write down a script of what she probably
said to her coworkers and, all that.
And I think he used words like the minutia of her day.
So this person was saying, but then let me tell you about my day.
And then there's also a concept in NPD of this envy of others or belief that
others are envious of them that, and this is where you'll see people that they
just can't be happy for other people.
They can't congratulate somebody on a promotion.
It's as if there's this overall scarcity mindset in the world.
And that's part of what leads to back to that all or nothing black or white
thinking where, if they are listening to a podcast, they are listening to the best 1.
If you suggest 1, then that 1's dumb and you need to listen to theirs.
But in this scenario about in this work situation.
There was a woman that was saying that she has a colleague that cannot congratulate
anybody on a promotion because they're convinced that they deserved it more.
And that for some reason, the other person must have had some inside
insider info to get that promotion.
They had to have cheated.
And that just leads in the NPD world to just overall arrogant
behaviors and attitudes.
Somebody talking down to wait staff at restaurants, and they
believe that their status as a customer makes them far superior.
So if you look at that, and I know that there can feel like some similarities,
but there are also differences between NPD and emotional immaturity.
Yeah.
The similarities are things like difficulty with empathy, both struggle
to understand or consider other people's feelings or the problems
that show up in relationships.
Cause both can have trouble maintaining healthy, long term relationships.
They both have a difficulty handling criticism.
They both might react poorly to perceive criticism.
Or negative feedback.
What's interesting though is the person with narcissistic personality
disorder just thinks you're wrong.
You don't understand me.
The person with emotional immaturity can't take that feeling that they
might have done something wrong or that they might not be the best.
And so it comes back down to that gaslighting as a childhood defense
mechanism, that they can't not be the best or be wrong because if so, then their
parents will not pay attention to them and they will not get that validation.
Both also engage in a lot of attention seeking behaviors.
Both might act out in behaviors that are designed to draw attention to themselves,
wherever they are, whatever they do, and both have poor emotional regulation.
So both have trouble controlling their emotional responses.
Now the differences is self image because people with NPD, they have an inflated
self image while emotionally immature people actually have a low self esteem.
They're insecure.
They have this fluctuating self image.
And then motivation NPD behaviors are so driven by this need for
admiration and validation where emotional immaturity is more about
this underdeveloped coping mechanism.
It's this desire to not be viewed as wrong or having done
something with somebody else that somebody else would be upset with.
And then empathy, the way that that's handled is different as well.
So both people struggle with empathy, but people with NPD
often lack empathy entirely.
They don't even understand why we're still having this conversation.
Whereas emotionally immature people may have empathy, but they struggle to express
it appropriately because it would be so uncomfortable to have to acknowledge that,
that they may have offended somebody else.
Or that they might not have provided you with safety in the relationship.
So it can't be that it has to be because you did something wrong
because it's so uncomfortable to them.
And what's interesting is the concept of persistence.
In the NPD world NPD is a persistent long term personality disorder, while
emotional immaturity can potentially be addressed and improved with things
like therapy and personal growth.
And you can see the areas of growth.
Now, it might not be as quickly as one might like if they're in
a relationship with somebody that is struggling with emotionally
mature reactions and responses.
And then manipulation, people with NPD often consciously manipulate
others for personal gain.
And I think this is a big difference because people will often say.
I'm sure that they know what they're doing.
as somebody that has sat across from hundreds and hundreds of emotionally
immature people, ranging right up to good old narcissist is that over
time, you can kind of, I think, really have this narcissist or
emotionally immature radar of sorts.
And you can see that sometimes they truly don't have a clue of why people
are making such a big deal out of things that, that they, they may not.
It may not be conscious.
It might be more in the subconscious or that's where that concept
of confabulation comes in.
So quickly where you watch somebody say something they think is even empathetic
or the right thing to say, and they gauge or map their partner's reaction.
And all of a sudden, what do they do with that?
That's where I almost feel like this subconscious confabulation
comes in and you watch the person create a new narrative in real time.
That's what will feel like gaslighting sometimes from this desperate place
where the emotionally immature person just doesn't want to be
wrong, or they don't want somebody to be disappointed with them.
That's that concept of manipulation.
It's interesting because that word is so loaded, but I think you can see
though, again, NPD people consciously manipulate others for personal gain,
emotionally immature behaviors are usually not deliberately manipulative.
But then as soon as, if they find out that they're not being validated,
or they might've done something wrong, then it is full blown panic.
Which leads to the concepts of self awareness.
Individuals with NPD typically lack insight into their condition.
This is that concept where they don't feel like they're doing anything different than
what anyone would do as in that situation.
It's core or central to their ego.
They don't see anything wrong.
Where then emotionally immature people might recognize their struggles,
even if they can't change them.
And that might lead to more of the frustration and the
frustration feels uncomfortable.
And how do they get rid of the discomfort?
They need control in this situation.
How do they get control, anger, withdraw, gaslighting shut down victim status.
And then severity.
If you look at MPD, it is a clinical diagnosis with the most severe and
pervasive symptoms while emotional immaturity exists on a spectrum, and it's
not a clinical disorder, at least not yet.
And then the good old origin story, you got MPD is thought to develop
from a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental factors,
nature and nurture often rooted in childhood where emotional immaturity.
may more directly be linked to developmental experiences, learn
behaviors, what someone was modeled, what they don't know that they don't know.
But then in that hope for growth, it is uncomfortable.
And once again, what do we do with our discomfort?
And I think right now it's good to then bring in that concept as well.
If we're really going to get to this false self of intermittent reinforcement.
So we've talked about emotional immaturity.
We've talked about narcissistic personality disorder
so intermittent reinforcement is a principle of behavioral psychology.
It was first described by the psychologist BF Skinner in the thirties.
And.
The 1930s that we're not to the 2030s yet, but it occurs when a reward or
positive outcomes given only sometimes in response to a particular behavior.
Let me read from a website called feeling is healing.
co.
uk.
And this is 1 that I've done an episode on based off of this article
on intermittent reinforcement.
So Skinner carried out these studies with rats.
So when rats press the lever, they were rewarded with food each time.
So that was continuous reinforcement.
So after a while, the researchers changed the parameters of the experiment
and the rats were rewarded with food in an unpredictable pattern.
Sometimes they'd press this lever and reward them with food.
Other times it wouldn't.
the pattern was completely random.
the rats couldn't predict whether they would receive a reward or not.
the result of this was that the rats became obsessed with pressing the lever.
So after a while, the researchers changed this whole setup again, so
that there was no reward anytime when the rats pressed the lever.
And their expectation was that the rats would give up.
So they were going to study how long does it take to then
move away from that behavior.
But the opposite occurred.
The rats went crazy and continued to press the lever obsessively, even neglecting
their own hygiene and other needs.
They weren't brushing their teeth.
They weren't, saying , their little prayers before dinner at bed.
I'm kidding.
But this mirrors what happens in an abusive relationship and it goes toward
explaining why the relationships based off of this concept of intermittent
reinforcement are so harder to leave than healthy relationships because the
person becomes addicted to trying to get the emotionally mature narcissist
to behave in a safe and sane way.
In a way that makes sense to them, and it's why it takes so much
longer to get over an abusive relationship once it's ended.
And that's because the relationship by nature is not a relationship,
but it is an addiction.
So this intermittent reinforcement, it is Probably the most powerful motivator
and manipulation tactic because in an abusive relationship, the abuser mixes
these episodes of love in with the abuse.
So then the victim gets so worn down and then starved of affection that by the
time that they get that little teeny scrap of love, then they get a dopamine dump.
They get a release of the chemical dopamine.
And so then the victim eventually associates the abuser with the feeling of
relief from their pain, even though the abuser caused the pain in the first place.
So that is this concept of a trauma bond.
And this is why intermittent reinforcement is what really explains why no contact.
It really is the most important concept when it's possible to do so.
Because for a narcissist, the relationship is never really over.
From their perspective, they'll keep coming back to you as
long as they need their drug.
And that's that narcissistic supply.
And what I love about this particular article that I can put in the show notes,
is they call out that another behavior such as checking emails is another
example of intermittent reinforcement.
We're rewarded when an email is, is Coming in but emails can be inconsistent
and unpredictable with how often we get them or the notifications of your phone.
So the occasions when we receive a reward make up for the times when we check the
phone or the email and there is no reward.
And other examples of intermittent reinforcement are things like
gambling and slot machines.
And it's, it's also why you give in to a nagging child when the
child continues to like push and nag and push your boundaries.
Because they'll learn that after a certain amount of time,
they will get what they want.
And this is why, one of the reasons why that people spoil their kids because they
want to alleviate their own discomfort and then the kid just hammers away long
enough and then you give in to them.
how do you know when you're being subjected to this concept of intermittent
reinforcement of the trauma bond?
When you experience feelings of confusion in or out of the relationship.
When you find yourself obsessing over what the other person meant
or intended or is thinking.
Or when you find yourself trying to work out what you could have done different to
make the situation turn out differently.
Or you blame yourself and you feel the need to take responsibility for what went
wrong in the relationship and for what your partner future or past has done.
Again, it's back to that if I can take responsibility for it, then I can fix it.
But if I can't, then that may mean that I don't have as
much control as I would like.
Or if you're just feeling absolutely depressed and distressed and in pain
after the relationship has ended, long after the relationship has ended.
Or if you continually to second guess yourself, you rationalize, you talk
yourself out of your gut instincts.
That's what we want to get back to.
Because a person with a personality disorder, such as things like narcissistic
or antisocial personality disorder.
That is someone that is, it is a personality disorder.
They are unlikely to ever change because that behavior rewards them.
They have to really truly go seek out long term help to change.
And part of the problem is that with that personality disorders is they
don't know that what they're doing is necessarily the wrong way to do it.
They, that's the way that they are doing life.
There are other non personality disorder people who have insecure attachments.
So somebody like with an avoidant attachment style might pull away
because of this fear of intimacy.
That type of person would need to be willing to work with their partner
to form more consistent patterns.
So when it's already difficult to get that anxious and avoidant pattern to become
more mature, it's, I can only say that trying to make that stability occur within
the relationship with an emotionally immature narcissistic person is, It is
going to zap you of your self and your emotional calories, time and effort.
And so let me get back to the script here today, cause we're talking
about, so that's that concept of intermittent reinforcement.
And it occurs when a partner is inconsistently loving or attentive.
Inconsistency is the problem.
That inconsistency can actually strengthen that attachment.
For the negative, making it harder to leave the relationship.
I was working with somebody recently we'll call her Sarah.
Her emotionally immature partner, Tom, loving, attentive sometimes,
but cold and distant on others.
She finds herself constantly trying to recreate these conditions that
lead to his affectionate behavior.
She starts to become dependent on these just rare moments of positivity.
And that is the trauma bond that's that strong emotional attachment that
develops between an emotionally abused person and their abuser, especially
in conditions of intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment.
In the context of being in a relationship with an emotionally immature person
operating from this false self trauma bonding occurs because of this.
It's the cycle of it's a cycle of idealization.
So you're idealizing your partner and then they devalue you.
So the cycle of idealization and devaluation, and that typically
characterizes these relationships.
So here's an example to, we'll call this person, Mike, he had a girlfriend, Lisa,
she was the emotionally immature one.
she would alternate between showering with love and affection and then At the
drop of a hat, when white people are dropping hats, but subjecting him to
cold withdrawal, emotional outburst.
So he starts finding himself deeply attached to her and he's
consistently seeking her approval and dreading her disapproval.
So he's finding himself losing himself because he's not sure how to show
up in order to get that approval.
And he's desperately trying to, again, avoid the disapproval.
So he starts to lose himself at defining his, all of his worth.
Through her inconsistent validation.
So how intermittent reinforcement and trauma bonding occur with that emotionally
immature partner, that inconsistent affection, the emotionally immature
partner operating again from this false self doesn't know who they are.
So in any moment they are trying to make themselves feel better.
So in one sense, they may be loving and then completely distant the next.
When I mentioned earlier, this idealization and devaluation, the partner
might put their significant other on a pedestal one day, then criticize
them partially the next creating.
I did an episode a little while ago on this emotional whiplash, but also
this unpredictable response because due to their own unresolved issues, the
emotionally immature person's reactions to situations can be so wildly inconsistent.
And that keeps their partner consistently on edge.
And are they doing it on purpose?
I think they're just doing it.
I think it's just in that moment.
This is how they feel.
But unfortunately, then if you call them out, so to speak on, if they had
a different opinion, even earlier that day, then they're not going to be able
to sit with that discomfort and self reflect and say, man, that's a good point.
I didn't realize that.
Then it's a, well, that's not what I meant.
Or no, I didn't say that.
Again, here comes that gaslighting but there are these moments of connection,
rare moments where the person will feel that no, that they really do get it.
There's this emotional intimacy and that will just start to feel so powerful
that the partner starts to be willing to endure long periods of emotional neglect
and just hopes of experiencing that.
That moment of connection again, and then unfortunately, there's a
deep fear of abandonment because that inconsistency starts to trigger
abandonment and it starts to make that person fear that if I lose this
person, even though they're not great.
That I'll never find anybody again.
And that's one of the ways that the emotionally immature person keeps
that person around is they let them know that you would be nothing
without me, those kind of things.
And then rationalization, the partner might begin to excuse or rationalize the
emotionally immature person's behavior.
Blaming themselves number one or most of the time is these external circumstances.
Well, it's because they're tired because they're overworked because the holidays
are around because it's tax season.
You know, you name it.
So I'll give you a scenario.
We'll just call them Emily and Alex.
Emily's in a relationship with Alex.
Alex is emotionally immature.
Totally operating from this place of a false self.
He just changes no more dropping of hats.
But at the change of the tides, the wind, the wind blows.
Alex can also be charming and affectionate.
I talked with him many times and he can make these just grand gestures of love.
But those periods are interspersed with times where he is cold, he is
critical, and he's verbally abusive.
when I would talk with him, he was, Oh, you're right,
Tony, I got to knock that off.
I got to get better.
And then that would make him feel better.
I'm going to work on it.
And if I would push, well, what does that mean?
What are you going to do?
What do you do when you get home tonight?
What do you do tomorrow?
He's I said, I'm going to work on it.
And it was, you could watch how he would get what he does with this discomfort, but
he was in my office to try to get better.
So we would sit with that discomfort and I wouldn't explain that.
That saying, I'll do better alleviates our discomfort and it might even make
our spouse feel good in that moment.
So then you're going to feel like now I don't need to do anything.
I'm good.
I'm going to work on it, but you have to actually do the work time.
Time may heal a wound, but time doesn't necessarily develop skills.
You have to do things to develop those skills.
So Emily, in this scenario, just found herself on this
huge emotional roller coaster.
We would say that her roller coaster was a pretty fun and also scary time.
The good times are so good that she's willing to endure these bad
times, always hoping to recapture these moments of connection.
So she starts to doubt her own perception.
She wonders if she's overreacting to the negative aspects.
And then who does she go to, to try to clarify and see if she's crazy?
She goes, Alex.
And he says, yeah, you are crazy.
I'm fine.
I just said I was sorry.
So over time, she is caught up in that trauma bond.
She feels this deep attachment despite the pain that that relationship causes her.
And then she finds it hard to leave even when her friends or family,
people express concern because she's become addicted to the cycle of
intermittent positive reinforcement.
And I want to throw a, there's a concept I've never talked about before.
It's, it's fascinating.
It's called identity diffusion.
And it's this psychological state that's characterized by.
This lack of a coherent or stable sense of self, it was by the
legendary psychologist, Eric Erickson.
And then there was a guy named Otto Kernberg that did a lot of work with this,
and he worked with personality disorders.
So now we're starting to get our toe into the water of this false
self and how the emotionally mature narcissist shows up this way.
So the key features of this identity diffusion are an inconsistent self image.
A lack of commitment to personal values or goals a difficulty describing oneself.
They find themselves in unstable relationships, and then they just
have this feeling of inner emptiness.
So examples of identity diffusion, things like career and decision, think
of somebody who constantly changes their career aspirations one week, they're
going to be a lawyer, the next they are convinced they should be an artist,
but every time they really believe that is their true calling in that moment.
And I know I mentioned that the work of this Otto Kernberg
was with personality disorders.
So I worry now that if you are listening to this, you're saying,
Oh, my gosh, I do those things.
Does that mean I have a personality disorder?
Oh, no, this is the identity diffusion.
This is the thing that's starting to be important to understand to know.
Number one, that you're normal, but then this is part of if you
didn't have this stability growing up, or you weren't really modeled
how to be in touch with yourself.
Trust your gut.
If you didn't have a secure attachment with the parents, you
could go and explore the world and try to figure out who you are.
Then this identity diffusion is going to make it feel like, man,
I do go one way or the next.
I can, change my hopes and dreams , in any moment.
And so that's normal.
That's this identity diffusion.
It also plays out in relationship instability.
Your feelings about your partner might fluctuate wildly.
Sometimes you're certain that they're soulmates.
Other times you feel like there's really not a connection because that
perception of the relationship is based off of your mood, how you are feeling.
And then when I mentioned the value inconsistency, I find that most
people don't really understand or know what their core values are.
They have these values from their parents or their church community.
And if I tap back into the acceptance and commitment therapy world, if
you are acting in a way that is inconsistent with what your core values
are, , what we're doing is we're.
Driven by these socially compliant goals, things I think I'm supposed to
do because that's, I guess that's what I'm supposed to think or feel, but if
I'm driven by these socially compliant goals, then I'm going against my own
sense of self, I'm living this life of experiential avoidance where I will
do anything first, other than these things that I guess I'm supposed to do.
So that goes against your own process of becoming so value inconsistent values.
I remember a client once who, you know, strong advocate for environmental
causes one month, and then the next minute really doesn't seem to show
much interest in, and then becomes passionate about economic policies that
ironically might harm the environment.
This was a based off of a true story.
And it was interesting because in the rapport building phase I attached pretty
heavily to this person's desire to help the climate and environmental causes.
So then they were, I mapped them in my mind relationship with
them, that was important to them.
And then I continued to bring things up about the environment.
And then later they said, I didn't realize you were such an environmentalist.
And because they talked about these political parts of them that went
against what they had first brought into the sessions, which leads to this
concept of a more malleable personality.
So this is where people start to be a different person, depending on who
they're with, with outgoing friends, they're the life of the party with
intellectual types, they're very serious.
very philosophical.
they're not consciously pretending in each context.
They genuinely feel like that's who they are.
So then we hit this intersection.
I think of identity, diffusion, emotional immaturity, and the false self.
Oh, my.
So an emotionally immature person operating from this false self,
particularly one who is experiencing this identity diffusion, likely does believe
that their own narrative in that moment.
They feel like this is who I am right now, but they don't even understand
that position can change in any given moment, depending on the person that
walks in the room, that depends on the story that they see on the news or
show that they watch , it can change.
And that really signifies this lack of psychological flexibility.
And that means that their truth can shift rapidly based on their emotional
state and their immediate circumstances.
And what we all experience on the outside is it looks like this
person is incredibly emotionally inconsistent or they are telling lies.
So the person though, in their mind, isn't necessarily lying.
Instead, their perception of reality changes to align with their current
emotional state and their needs.
And this explains why they can seem so convincing in one moment and you
genuinely believe what they're saying.
So let's break down this false self even further.
What that comes with is a lack of a stable core identity because of
this identity diffusion, because they can change at any given moment.
The person lacks a consistent internal reference point.
There's no like home base, their sense of self, their values, their beliefs
can shift dramatically based on external factors and internal emotional states.
So I hope that you can start to see we're laying this groundwork
of why it can seem like the person that you are in a relationship
with or that you interact with.
Just changes immediately.
And you are left feeling confused.
And then if you're trying to be in a relationship with this
person, you are going to feel like nothing you do is enough.
You never get it right.
When in reality, that person doesn't, they lack this just core sense of self, the
stability, this emotional consistency.
But then they are interacting with you and then basically they are
needing you to make them feel better.
So you have to validate who they think that they are, even if
that's not what you're seeing.
And that is a difficult thing to do because it's hard to sound really
engaged, excited, and grounded when you're trying to validate a version
of somebody that you don't experience.
So example client at one point was telling their spouse, Let's
say on a Monday, you know, I've always dreamed of settling down.
I want to have a big family.
By Friday, they just said, you know, I've never really seen
myself as a settling down type.
I'm a rambler.
I need freedom to travel and explore, but in both instances, she honestly believed
that was who she was in that moment.
And then when we talk about their, the emotional state dictates the reality
without a core stable sense of self, that person's current emotional state
becomes the primary factor in shaping their perception of reality, how they
feel in that moment, and again, that can depend on what they hear, read.
You'll see somebody that watches a Netflix documentary.
Now they're a vegan, then they watch another one.
And now, as long as it's a farm to table or fork or, now I'm
in, give me that grass fed beef.
And so it can just shift back and forth.
Yeah.
But in that moment, they really believe this is who I am.
And they could argue that just vehemently because that is, they feel that way.
That is exactly who they are and how dare you think that they're anybody.
Otherwise, I think of an example of it was a dad and let's say what he
felt when he felt happy and secure, Oh, his relationship was perfect.
His wife was flawless.
Then when he felt anxious or insecure.
Then the relationship, I'm not sure if it's going to work.
And his spouse was uncaring, his perception of this same
relationship changed dramatically based on his emotional state yet.
He could not see that.
that concept of the, the person's immediate circumstances,
shaping their self perception.
If you break that down, it's that person's view of themselves and
where they're showing up in their life, or basically how that day is
going can change rapidly based on.
In the immediate circumstances, did they get a big bill?
Did something that they are they running late for work?
Did they get a flat tire or the social context that they're looking on social
media and they see that other people are out there living their best lives,
then all of a sudden they go from, okay, we're saving all our money to
then we're going on a big vacation.
And it can just feel so unstable to be in that type of relationship.
Another example, someone was mentioning at a work event this person saw
themselves as confident, ambitious, professional with a very clear career
path, but later they were visiting their family and they had successful
siblings that made a lot of money.
And then they said within that same day, they just felt like, okay, I
am a uncertain directionless child.
I'm seeking approval from my mom and dad.
And in both contexts, they said that I felt those things deeply in that moment.
And this, convincing nature of these shifting truths, because the
person really believes that their current narrative is real, they
can appear extremely convincing.
They're not deliberately trying to deceive others.
But when they are expressing themselves or what feels true to them in that
moment, you have to think about this concept of creating memory as well.
So they have this memory or this thought of what they want to be.
And now in order to even justify or convince themselves, now
they're packing that memory.
with all of these things that are going to go along with to convince themselves
that, no, this is really who I am.
This example we'll call her Sarah.
She tells her friend on a Tuesday, I'm breaking up with Tom.
We are so incompatible.
And she is crying and she's.
Absolutely.
Certain we're done on Wednesday.
She's back telling a friend, we had an amazing talk and he
turns out he is my soulmate.
He's the one for me and her enthusiasm and conviction were just as strong.
This person said in both of those conversations that were so polar
opposite, just a couple of days apart.
So I hope this kind of understanding helps explain why emotionally immature
individuals seem so inconsistent, but they also seem sincere.
their identity of fusion means they lack a stable core self and without a stable
core self they really have no anchor to their perceptions and their behaviors.
So they will change.
And instead, they just continually reconstruct their sense of self and
reality based on the current state of emotions that they are feeling and
circumstances that they're experiencing.
But then for the partner, the friend of these people, it's so confusing and
it's so frustrating and it's important to remember that while the person may
not be intentionally lying, that that shifting perception, it can be harmful
to relationships and it can indicate a need for professional help to develop
a more integrated sense of self and an improved emotional regulation.
And I really like talking about two of my favorite things, whole object
relations and object constancy, because I think they fit in here well too.
So whole object relations this is this concept and it was developed by this
person, Melanie Klein and there were these other object relations theorists
back in the day as well, but it's the ability to see oneself and others.
As whole complex beings, entire people with both positive and negative qualities.
So if you are a human, then you are going to have all kinds of qualities and traits.
in healthy development, a person learns to integrate both those
good and bad aspects of themselves and others into a whole person.
So they understand that people including themselves can have
both positive and negative traits.
All at the same time, because those things can shift and change at a given moment
based off of what is going on in their lives or how people are experiencing them.
Now, people with narcissistic traits or extreme emotional maturity, what
they struggle with is this concept of low object relations, because
they start to see themselves, they see others in black and white terms.
So it's either all good or it's all bad.
Sometimes people refer to that as splitting.
So the example is somebody more narcissistic.
They might view their partner as perfect when they get what they
want, but then of course they are entirely bad when they are faced
with any disappointment or criticism.
It can be as easy as somebody just saying no.
And all of a sudden you are horrible.
They burn the village down and this is where that concept comes in of,
then that person may five minutes later feel better about themselves.
And now they want to go ride bikes.
They might've just told you you're a horrible spouse and
called you some bad names.
And then they leave the room, you're devastated, but now they feel
better because they got that out.
And they come back in and say, Hey, what's for dinner.
In essence, do you want to go on a bike ride as if nothing ever happened?
And then what goes with whole object relations is this concept
of called object constancy.
So that's the ability to then maintain a positive emotional connection to a person.
When they're out of sight or during conflicts, because this involves
understanding that relationships and people's core qualities remain stable,
even when the circumstances change.
Now, the irony is that stability within the emotionally immature
person is the unchanging nature.
Of themselves.
So it's accepting the fact that, Oh yeah, this person is all over the map.
The people with healthy object constancy, they can then weather these
conflicts and relationships because they maintain an internal sense
of an overall positive connection.
Even when they're momentarily upset, they stay grounded and
they can understand that, okay, this person's going through it.
So those with these narcissistic traits or the extreme emotional
immaturity they lack object constancy.
They might experience these Intense.
feelings of anxiety when separated from a loved one or completely devalue a
relationship when there's a conflict.
An emotionally immature person, they might feel like their partner
doesn't love them anymore just because they had a minor disagreement.
Wrapping things up.
How do these concepts then relate to Narcissism and
extreme emotional immaturity.
It's that fluctuating self image because without these whole object relations, the
narcissist or the emotionally immature person's self image fluctuates wildly.
It's all over the map.
They might feel grandiose one moment and worthless the next, and they're unable to
integrate these experiences into a stable self concept and, Moreover, they want you
to tell them they're going to be okay.
And you're probably not going to get that right if they're not
feeling good about themselves.
But now they're basically saying, Hey, now you make me feel better.
And when you don't get that right, they get to say, you don't care about them.
And that is part of this.
What leads to these unstable relationships, you know, that
lack of object constancy leads to extremely unstable relationships.
The person might idealize their partner one day, devalue them the next.
They can't maintain that consistent positive connection.
And that will cause some emotional volatility, because without this
ability to see themselves and others as completely whole, complex beings, then
That emotionally immature person is going to react intensely to a perceived slight
or criticism because it attacks and there threatens their fragile self image.
And this is a lot of this is based off of the good old childhood fear of
abandonment, or object constancy leads to this intense fear of abandonment.
And they feel like the only way they can keep you around is control coercion.
So because of that intense fear of abandonment is the person struggles
to maintain the sense of connection.
When they're not in direct contact with you, they are
going to try to manipulate you.
And I think it goes without saying that also would lead to a lack of
empathy because the inability to see somebody else's whole as complex.
It's going to impair their empathy because it's hard to understand
other's perspectives when you can't hold onto both the positive and the
negative qualities at the same time.
So I really think that understanding those concepts, the whole object
relations, the object constancy, it can help explain what feels just nutty
baffling behavior of the narcissist or the extremely emotionally immature person.
So their lack of whole object relations and object constancy means their
perception of themselves and others.
Back to today's theme can shift dramatically based on the immediate
circumstances and emotional states and all of this ties back to the earlier
discussion about everything from identity diffusion, having this just not
knowing who you are and this false self.
the lack of whole object relations and object constancy, it contributes
to this unstable sense of self and the reality that characterizes
the emotionally immature person.
It helps to explain why they can seem so convincing in their shifting
truths and each moment they're experiencing a fragmented version of
reality, but it feels so real to them.
So then recognizing these patterns, I think is so crucial for you.
If you are waking up to this, or if you're interacting with people that are
exhibiting these traits, these patterns.
Because whether that's in your personal relationship or it's
in the therapeutic setting that there's this, these deep seated.
Issues and this need to really self explore um, self confront.
So what did we learn today?
Hopefully it's probably been a lot, but hopefully you, you've picked up
a lot of concepts that maybe feel familiar in your relationships, but
that false self is really this place that somebody is operating from that
does not know who they are and they need you to make them feel better.
And that isn't your job.
And you can lose your own sense of self in this whole process.
Burning up a lot of emotional calories and time in particular, time that could
be spent on figuring out who you are.
In a healthy differentiated relationship, you're able to maintain a connection
with somebody while holding on to yourself while developing your own
sense of independence and autonomy.
And as you choose yourself, now you are choosing your partner in the relationship.
And now you're two completely different people going through life
for the very first time, having shared experiences with a lot of curiosity.
And then that really is intimacy.
That's a connection.
We think that we are wanting intimacy, but when we're in our
more immature selves, what we really are looking for is validation.
And we have to get off of that validation train.
It's good to have that.
When I feel good about myself, then if somebody is wanting to give me
a compliment, it can feel nice.
But that isn't why, that isn't what I'm, why I'm doing what I'm doing.
It's not to seek the validation.
I would love your thoughts, your questions, your comments, your examples.
Please send them in through Tony overbay.
com or you can send them directly to contact the Tony overbay.
com, but I appreciate you taking the time.
Thanks for the support for the podcast.
I hope that this has helped you understand a little bit more about
why it can be so confusing to be in these relationships with people that,
that really don't know who they are.
And if you find that you are one of those people that doesn't know who
you are and you made it this far, I know that you were on your way to
really figure it out who you are and how you show up in your relationships.
Keep on going.
You're right where you need to be.
And you're not crazy, you're broken, you're human.
And we'll see you next week on waking up to narcissism.