Hey, everybody. Welcome to a special crossover episode.
This is episode 111 of Waking Up to Narcissism and episode 419 of The Virtual Couch.
So actually, if you do the math, we got 111, 419, maybe throw 20 episodes of
Love ADHD in there, 15 of The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.
I don't know, maybe a dozen of Murder on the Couch, Carrie the 12,
and that is roughly roughly, 572 episodes of podcasting.
Or for my Waking Up to Narcissism audience, using narcissistic math,
that is well over 10,000 podcast episodes.
So thank you for joining me. Now, why a crossover episode today?
There's a couple of reasons. One is the topic of today, Death by a Thousand Cuts.
These episodes are ones that resonate so much with people on the Waking Up to Narcissism side.
But I also have people on the virtual couch side of the coin that have talked
about going over and listening to these as well.
And for my Virtual Couch audience, the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast is actually
quite a bit bigger than the Virtual Couch podcast, which I never anticipated.
And they do hit different demographics when you really break down where they go and the numbers.
So I just thought, why not? Why not bring all my friends together today to listen to today's podcast?
So that's one reason that the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes are pretty fascinating.
And today's has so much content.
And yeah, there are examples that are heartbreaking.
And there are some that are just fascinating and will probably resonate with
a lot of you in your relationships, but not even necessarily,
I guess, in your relationship, but you may not even be aware that there are
people around you that you care about that are also in these relationships with
emotionally immature or people that have strong narcissistic traits or tendencies.
And hopefully this will help give you even more empathy and the opportunity
or ability to connect with some people that might be struggling.
Or again, you might be struggling in your relationship as well. Now, reason number two.
This is moving week. We're headed to Arizona. And on that note,
I had never done this or I never have on a podcast. So we'll see how this goes.
But first of all, sign up for my newsletter at tonyoverbay.com or in the link
tree in the show notes here.
And then speaking of my newsletter, this is kind of part of that segue.
A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned to my newsletter audience about this move.
And then at the end, I threw in there a little bit of a, hey,
I might actually have been able to open up some space to have a handful of new
virtual clients. and the feedback was really, it was really wonderful,
but I just wanted to put that out there here as well.
So if you resonate with the material that I put out, either as a couple or as
an individual, feel free to drop me an email at contact at tonyoverbay.com or
go through my website and tell me a little bit more about your situation.
I can't promise anything, but if I can help, I would love to see if that might be a possibility.
And I also have two amazing associates, Nate and Marla Christensen.
Yes, they are married and they are both therapists, insert joke there.
There, Marla was on the Virtual Couch podcast a couple of weeks ago talking
about grief and loss, but she can work with a variety of things.
And she has some strong relationship skills from some of the things that she's
been through in her background.
We talk about that on that Virtual Couch episode.
And then Nate has been on, I think, the Virtual Couch half a dozen times,
also over on Waking Up the Narcissism.
And he works with addiction and ADHD, anxiety, depression.
Depression so if you're looking for help and just not
sure where to go just reach out to me and and i'll
see what i can do but just a quick heads up too before we dive
into today's episode it should be dropping on tuesday
march 19th so if you if you
like watching things live and you got a tiktok account or youtube then you're
in luck because my daughter sydney and i are gearing up for our next relationship
q a session and that is on this wednesday march 20th at 7 30 p.m pacific time
And you can catch that on TikTok live or on Twitter.
On YouTube live. And you can always catch the replays on my YouTube channel.
So talk about death by a thousand cuts. We hear that phrase often,
and it actually comes from this old harsh punishment called,
I think it's Ling Chi out of China.
So if you just set the stage, picture this, it's a slow, painful process where
the person got these tiny little
cuts, basically paper cuts over and over until it was just too much.
But now we're not talking about physical cuts, but emotional and psychological
ones that come from dealing with someone who's struggling with emotional immaturity,
or maybe showing some narcissistic traits and tendencies.
And what this can start to look like is sarcastic comments or a cold shoulder here and there.
And what is really difficult is those may not seem like a big deal on their
own, but you start to pile them up.
And we're talking day after day, year after year, it can even be decade after
decade. and they really do start to wear a person down.
It starts to chip away at who you are. It messes with your head.
And pretty soon, you start to feel all alone in your own relationship.
But yet also questioning, is this something that I'm causing or creating? Or is it all in my head?
Or the person that's the more pathologically kind that's trying to make sense
of things will often say, wait, am I the emotionally mature person? Am I the narcissist?
But here's the deal, Because I do want to validate those feelings.
They are real, the feelings that you're having.
And those small cuts, they are anything but small when they start to pile up.
So as we start to dive into more of the stories today, you're going to hear
a lot of those moments that really did leave a mark. And we'll talk about how
we can start patching ourselves up, how we can start standing strong again.
And so often, we just don't know what we don't know.
Now we're here and we're starting to learn more about something that we weren't aware of.
And that can be a really difficult place to be when you start to wake up to
this emotional immaturity, whether it's in yourself or in your relationship,
because it can often then feel like, well, now what do I do?
But what you do is you just you keep doing and being and listening to podcasts like this.
And you're on that path of enlightenment. Let me also address,
before we jump into the examples, why we often feel dismissed when trying to
share some of these small cuts.
Because let's say that you have tried to share these with, and let's not say
maybe necessarily the person that's inflicting those cuts upon you,
because I'm sure that you've tried to do that already.
But you start trying to share them maybe with a sibling, an adult sibling,
maybe a pastor, a bishop, a leader, a friend.
Because sometimes we just want to feel heard. If we feel like we're being made
to feel crazy within our relationship, that's one of the first things we need to do is say, am I crazy?
I need to reach out to somebody. And especially if it's somebody that I think
that I can trust, but then if they invalidate us, you know, we want somebody
to tell us that, hey, we're going to be okay, or I see you.
I know that we need to find that okayness from within.
I mean, that's a big part of becoming is that you do need to eventually find
a way to know that you're okay, not need that external validation.
But that is a process and that one ebbs and flows with your own mood and what's going on in your life.
But we'll get to that point where you have that okayness from within.
It's really difficult if you're
in a relationship where you're starting to bleed out from these cuts.
So when you do try to open up to your friends and family about the little things
that maybe your partner does that is really starting to hurt,
all those little small comments and actions that again, don't seem like much
on their own, but they add up over time.
So you finally decide, okay, I'm going to share this with somebody,
I'm hoping for a bit of understanding, maybe even a shoulder to lean on.
But instead, you get things like, well, hey, it could be worse.
Or, oh, no, I totally get it. My partner does the same thing.
And then just like that, the focus shifts. And it's not about you anymore.
It's about them making themselves feel better about the conversation.
I know that people are trying. In that scenario, they feel like they are doing
something good by telling you, hey, don't worry about it.
As if you hadn't thought about that, or as if somebody telling you not not to
worry about it. Then all of a sudden, your fight or flight response calms down.
Your body no longer keeps the score and you can just go back into the relationship
and say, I guess it's not so bad. They are trying to help.
But in doing so, they start to make it about their own comfort of getting rid
of their discomfort, not about what you're going through.
And that's from an absolutely bless their heart standpoint.
Here's the thing. It's human nature to want to fix things, especially when we're
faced with somebody else's discomfort.
If you're a parent and your kid comes up to you and they are really sad,
what do we want to do? We want to say, hey, don't worry about it, bud. It's not a big deal.
Or, well, what did you do as part of that.
The situation that you're coming to me with that you're upset about,
or a not right now, or just take a couple of deep breaths, or we can even be
doing it from a place of good.
But what we're doing is invalidating that person because quite frankly,
it makes us uncomfortable.
You know, it's, it's like, if we can offer this quick solution or make it seem
less serious, then we've done our part.
It's all I can do, but that's not always what we need. It's rarely what we need.
Sometimes what we're looking for is to be heard, to have somebody acknowledge
that what what they're going through is tough without trying to brush it off
or compare it to their own experiences.
No fixing your judgment statements, not, well, why didn't you,
or I would have, or you need to tell them, but just that sounds hard. It really does.
So that's why having a space where we can share and really listen to each other is so important.
You know, it's not just about talking. It's about feeling that feeling understood
and really feeling validated.
And if I'm being real, finding that kind of support, support,
it can be an absolute game changer.
And that's what starts to remind us that we're not alone in feeling this way
and that our experiences do matter.
So, if you're listening on the virtual couch side or wherever you are,
I have a private Facebook group for women who are in emotionally immature or
narcissistic relationships with, it can be anyone, with an adult,
a parent, it can be an adult child,
it can be their spouse, it can be somebody at work, it can be a neighbor,
it can be be a pastor, it can be you name it.
And then I started a men's group, which I've called Emotional Architects.
We're learning how to become more emotionally mature and more emotionally consistent.
And so that, if you're interested in either one of those, reach out,
contact at TonyOverbay.com.
So if you never heard one of these episodes before, buckle up,
listen with an open mind because you might not be the one getting cut or doing
the cutting, but the chances are that somebody around you that you know is living
in one of these types of relationships and emotional immaturity knows no gender.
Yes, there is a small study out of the University of Buffalo that looked at
about half a million participants over a 30-year period that showed that men
are more narcissistic or emotionally immature than women.
And if you're newer to the narcissism angle, or if you hear it being thrown
out a lot, just know that on my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
I'm very intentional about recognizing that if you're just listening to the
general populace, the zeitgeist, or what people are talking about.
Probably feels like 80% of the population is narcissistic, when in reality,
a diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder is most likely met
by maybe three to four, maybe four and a half percent of the population.
So that's where I'm hung my shingle, my sign, my hat on.
Actually, we're all emotionally immature until we're not.
And those symptoms of emotional immaturity are a lot of what do we do with our discomfort?
Can I sit with that discomfort? Am Am I willing to self-confront? Can I apologize?
Can I take ownership for things? And not just from a people-pleasing standpoint,
but can I do that as a way to grow, even if the person that I'm communicating
with or in a relationship gets frustrated?
Because typically, we want to eliminate their frustration to make me feel better.
And that is more of that emotional immaturity. Is a boundary more of an ultimatum?
Hey, I need you to not do that anymore, which in reality, I'm just challenged
that person versus what a real boundary is, is if you do that, then I will leave.
I'll go on a walk. I'll do something other than be here because that isn't going
to be met with somebody saying, okay, I respect that.
You know, typically we're in these relationships where the more pathologically
kind is with the more emotionally immature.
And the reality is that means we're both pretty immature.
But then when somebody starts to change the dynamic in the relationship,
the other person doesn't typically throw a party and get balloons and party hats.
They start to push new buttons to try to get you to react because if you all
of a sudden get better or start to be more emotionally consistent or mature,
which is our goal as we grow into immature adult human beings,
it can threaten the safety in the relationship for the person that all they
know for love is control or manipulation or coercion.
If that's the case, if you find yourself in any of these sides,
you're that pathologically kind person or you're the person that's starting
to wake up to maybe more of your your own emotional immaturity,
you're in the right spot.
So let's get to these stories. So what I like to do in these Death by a Thousand
Cuts episodes is I will read these stories.
The stories have come from people that have emailed in since the last Death
by a Thousand Cuts story, or people are listening to the back catalog.
And I get a lot of these emails. And then I also put a request out to the women's
Facebook group. So these are all based on real life experiences.
And then I've gone in and asked for permission.
So at times, I think people maybe have changed I've changed up a few of the
details just to protect confidentiality, but they are based off of real stories.
And I think here's our first quick emotional immaturity check that as you're
hearing these, if your first thought or reaction is, I'm not buying it.
It's kind of fascinating because you don't know these people or their experiences.
And as somebody that sits and gets to do the couples therapy with people that
are in emotionally immature relationships or people with narcissistic traits
and tendencies, the stories are pretty, pretty wild.
The things that people do to control or coerce or manipulate another human being.
So again, quick check. If you're saying, oh, I don't know if I buy it.
That is a you thing in a loving way from a differentiated standpoint.
So let's, let's get to the stories. Oh, the first person said he used to make
sweeping generalizations about groups of people.
When I disagreed, he said I was being argumentative for the sake of it.
Because remember, to the narcissist or the extremely emotionally mature,
you can't have a different opinion.
Because if you do, then you think that theirs is wrong.
Even if that's not what you're saying or conveying in this scenario,
he's already observed you disagreeing. And then he has quickly made the judgment
that therefore you think that you are better than him. All or nothing,
black or white thinking.
Honestly, it's like everything is a game that there must be a winner and there
must be a loser, but we're not playing the, I guess it would be the real live
game of life where it's almost like we're playing a board game because there has to be that winner.
There has to be somebody in this one-up position and what that does in the relationship
is it eliminates curiosity. It eliminates connection.
It's all competition. And one of the stranger things still is that he also most
likely thinks that you will now be impressed that he can speak with such authority
about something while trying to also destroy you emotionally,
which then actually only makes him feel better.
But now you're also supposed to say, my hero.
And you're probably supposed to desire him and you'll get that wrong too.
So anyway, back to this example, she said he would never value my opinion.
And he used to use random people on the internet to back up his views.
So then I don't know if I've just become more healthy egoed or more of an old
man, but there are times where in a session, if this were to play out,
and let's just say in this scenario, the guy says,
but if his wife says something about parenting, which would make him more accountable,
let's say that she says, and I know that I've asked for help in bathing the kids now for years,
to them, which he might say something like, well, you know what Dr.
Closeye says about men who bend over in cramped circumstances.
And this one is based on a true story, honestly, to which then she would say,
okay, I looked that up. I can't find where actually Dr.
Closeye says that, to which then he would say, look, I read it.
Are you now telling me that my memory is bad? Because let's be serious.
Who here has the bad memory?
Who forgot to actually wish me a happy birthday at midnight, the day of my birthday.
And I had to be the one who said it first and who forgets to check and see if there's cherry Dr.
Pepper zero in the fridge so that I have one when I get home. So talk about memory.
Anyway, now we're arguing about something that is so far off topic and that still remains silly.
And this all started with his made up pseudoscience about bending over in bathrooms
so that he can get out of giving the kids a bath because he let slip at one
point that his dad never had to,
had to give him a bath. That was his mom's job.
To which then the wife said flatly, you have zero relationship with your dad now.
So is that the goal? To which of course he then proceeded to tell her how mean
she was to say things like that.
But we're still not talking about the increasingly growing elephant in the room
is that he's not going to be watching those kids anytime soon,
even though that conversation started with a classic, what can can I do to help?
Just not that or that or that. But look, I tried, I asked. And so now he can
even throw that back at her.
Another person said that he once told me that whenever he formed an opinion,
it was because he had thoroughly researched the subject, considered both sides,
and then made up his mind.
Therefore, he saw no value in hearing my opinion because it wouldn't sway his decision.
So she said, eventually, I just stopped voicing disagreements because it seemed futile.
But then when I wouldn't voice disagreements or I wouldn't communicate at all,
he then would criticize me for not having any opinions, labeling me as a sheep
and implying that I wasn't intelligent enough to think for myself.
And some of the responses to this post I thought were really interesting.
Someone said, this message really strikes a chord with me.
My spouse used the exact same reasoning to dismiss my views,
claiming that his opinions are based on extensive research and expertise.
And any attempt for me to offer a different perspective was then labeled as fighting.
So in his eyes, fighting means simply having an opinion that doesn't align with his.
She said he often makes negative and hurtful comments. And if I try to respond
in any way to lessen the negativity, now I'm accused as being difficult.
So she just has to go along with his opinion and agree with it,
or else that means he's fighting. And then if she doesn't agree with it,
then that means she has no opinion.
Another person said, this all sounds so familiar. My partner would accuse me
saying, you always have to fight, fight out of your own corner.
As if standing up for myself was a negative trait.
But she said, I do need to express my opinion when I disagree rather than staying silent.
And let me talk about something that happens often in relationships where there's
a lot of emotional immaturity in the mix. And it's this whole idea of black and white thinking.
It's that mindset where everything is either one way or it's the other.
It's right or it's wrong with no in between.
If you are not with me, you are against me.
And here's the deal with emotionally immature people that they often see the
world in this very rigid way. If you come up with a different opinion in their
mind, it's not just a different perspective.
It's a direct challenge because that does come with this. if you don't agree
with me, then you must believe I'm wrong.
And that's why I talk so often about curiosity. There's no curiosity there.
It just goes straight to defense.
That is what that black or white thinking is, that all or nothing.
But that's not how life works.
Having a different opinion is not just okay. It's part of what makes us human.
It's part of the whole human experience.
And that's how we grow and learn and connect with each other on a much deeper level.
Because imagine how dull conversations
would be if we all just nodded and agreed on everything. thing.
Although what is fascinating is sometimes when I've had a real live,
incredibly emotionally immature, even bordering on narcissistic person in my office.
And when they just say things that they feel are the right things to say,
I can think of a situation right now where in bringing up this all or nothing
black or white thinking, and in essence, trying to say to the narcissist,
but are you just wanting her to agree with everything that you say?
Are you not interested in what her opinion is? And he looked at me and said, not really.
And then that was his interior landscape of his mind or what it felt like to be him.
Because the truth is, and we're talking about from a place of maturity,
it is totally possible for two opinions to exist in the same space without one
canceling out the other. As a matter of fact, that is true.
The way that human interaction is designed to work.
It's about sharing and discussing and sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing. And that's okay.
Doesn't mean that there's a winner and a loser. It means that we are engaging.
If we're engaging, it means we're alive and we're kicking and we're just in
a big part of this whole rich, complex human experience.
That's a positive thing. So the next time you bump into that black or white
thinking, that all or nothing thinking, remember that the world is actually
full of a lot of colors and it's those colors with their shades and their nuances
that really do make life interesting.
So the acceptance that we are all having a different experience,
but we can have shared experiences is absolutely a sign of maturity.
And it can also be a game changer in a relationship.
Another person just said, all this is just so, so familiar to me.
If I disagreed with him, I was insulting his intelligence.
And she said, this is just so messed up. And when I look back on it from a distance,
And I wanted to address that quickly.
It's the concept about rumination, because that's something that already in
the sessions that I've done today before recording this podcast,
there's been a theme of people ruminating on the past, beating themselves up for, why didn't I know?
I can't believe I let this happen. But ruminating on the past interactions,
especially those moments in hindsight that really feel messed up,
it's absolutely normal to look back and think, man, what was going on there
now that you're starting to
see this bigger picture? But here's the thing that I can't convey enough.
As much as we go over and over those moments in our minds, it doesn't really
help us move forward. In fact, it's pretty unproductive because we keep thinking
that if we can figure out the past, if we can make sense of the past,
then we're going to be able to predict and make sense of the future.
And we're still wanting certainty because that will make us feel more calm.
But then that wanting certainty can often change.
Cause us to try to control more. Because if I can control people,
control my environment, control everything, then I've got my best chance at certainty.
But I'm not living the human experience. And I'm certainly not letting other
people find out who they are, becoming the best version of themselves.
I think about that in a parenting standpoint.
Hey, I think that this is what my kid needs to do. I think this is the subjects
they need to study. I think this is the career path that I think that they would like.
It's a lot of me in there. And if I'm doing it, even if I think it's a,
yeah, but I want what's best for them.
But really, I want to know that they are going to be okay, which makes sense
as a parent, but that's a me thing.
I'm taking them out of the decision of what they want to do with their life.
And too often, the emotionally immature person then carries that into a marriage
or relationship, and they're doing that same thing as well of,
hey, this other person is basically here to do things for me, make me feel better.
So then I'm going to control them because for some reason, I think that I know what's best for them.
Which is a sign of emotional immaturity.
Back to the rumination, because the things that happened, they happened.
Those interactions happen. Back then, you did not know what you didn't know.
So it's like you're trying to now solve a puzzle, but you don't have all those
pieces. And now you're starting to find those missing pieces.
And the picture is starting to become a little more clear.
But the goal isn't to try to put that puzzle together. But it's just recognizing
that I didn't have all the pieces.
And I'm going to be more curious and open moving moving forward.
Because it's huge to then recognize now to be aware of what happened,
but then the growth occurs when you can accept that happened.
And now what do I do moving forward?
How can that teach me? How can that inform and instruct me on how I show up in life moving forward?
So if you catch yourself ruminating or beating yourself up about the past,
I would love to just encourage a pause, pause for a moment and just give yourself grace and compassion.
And remember, you did not have the full picture back then, but now you're gathering
more of those pieces, you're understanding more, and now you're making changes
about what you can do moving forward. That really is what counts.
So do me a favor, don't be too hard on yourself for not having all the answers from the get-go.
This is part of that journey, recognizing where we've been, where we're heading.
That is a huge step in the right direction.
You're doing just fine. More death by a thousand cut stories.
Another person said, last summer, I underwent surgery for melanoma.
When I first found out about my diagnosis and shared the news with my partner,
his immediate response was, okay, I'm actually the one who's probably going
to get skin cancer with all the work that I do outside.
And she said, it was astonishing how he managed to shift the focus immediately
to himself right after I just told him about my own skin cancer diagnosis.
She said, thankfully the surgery was successful and her follow-up appointments have been positive.
But then just yesterday, the day before she posted this, she said,
I excitedly told him that my latest appointment went well and everything looks
good. And his reaction was, okay.
I've had people talk about similar things where they've gotten a thumbs up when
they found out that they're cancer-free from a text.
She said it's become painfully clear that he shows no genuine concern for my
health or my well-being despite.
Almost three decades together she said i
still find myself hoping for a different response but it's disheartening every
time he shows me how little that i seem to matter to him
this one is this one's really interesting she said
every time we had a major argument he would end up driving himself to the er
in the early hours of the morning she said i'd receive a text from him upon
his arrival explaining that he went alone because he didn't want to wake me
up but he was going through something his messages were vague only offering
small bits of information information when I inquired about his condition.
He mentioned things like the doctors being uncertain and ordering more x-rays
and more blood tests, or even trying to consider should they admit him, should they not?
And she's like, this would obviously leave me anxious and I would be on edge
and unsure of the severity of his situation.
Hours later though, he would text again and he would say, hey,
can you come give me a ride home? Because in his words, the doctors were incompetent.
So she said, I would go pick him up. Usually he'd start feeling better a few
hours hours after we got home.
Then he asked me, can you drive me back to the hospital? Cause I got to get
my car knowing that I have back issues and that long drives are painful for me.
He didn't seem to care or put or factor that into the equation.
The round trip to the hospital was 30 to 40 minutes, meaning four trips in one
day was physically taxing.
She said those ER visits became a monthly occurrence for quite a while and they
become less frequent now.
Usually only happening when he's extremely upset with me, particularly if he
doesn't get the reaction or even the argument that he's seeking.
And she said, additionally, it became clear that these weren't true emergencies,
as he would often feel significantly better just hours after being brought home
to the point of now he could go out for the evening.
So from ER to going out for the evening and those doggone incompetent doctors.
So that is, what's the phrase? Something that really grinds my gears and it
is perfectly illustrated by that last story.
And it is this baffling and kind of insulting assumption that the narcissist
or the incredibly emotionally immature person seems to make that we're all just
a bunch of gullible folks who buy into any story, no matter how far-fetched it is.
So then imagining that scenario, somebody dashes into the ER after a few hours
of the medical team supposedly just all scratching their heads in utter bewilderment.
This person just throws up their hands and says, oh, forget it.
This isn't worth my time.
Texts his wife come pick me up as then
the modern hospital would then with all of its expertise protocols
would then just let a patient dictate the pace and
what to do and then just wander off because they're a little bit miffed because these
doggone doctors don't know what they're doing and it goes back to that concept
where the emotionally mature the narcissist truly believe that they are the
special one whose mysterious condition has left the entire medical community
in a daze it's like really so these doctors trained professionals who have seen
it all would be completely stumped and just let somebody walk out in a huff that's kind of silly.
And it's not just frustrating, but again, it's more of this insult to your intelligence.
And I hear these stories often about what people say that they know about therapy
that have not been to therapy.
I've been a practicing therapist for 17, 18 years every day, not weekends.
I'm saying that because now I can see the emotionally mature.
Oh, really? Every day? Seven days a week? Is that what you're trying to say? Which is not the point.
But when somebody has not been to therapy, but they want to explain to me what
they think therapy is like, then that is adorable.
Or I hear people say, that therapist or that counselor, they've got their own
agenda, says the person who has no idea what my practice is about or hasn't
even been to therapy or especially to see me.
Because that is how special that person is, that they know more about the attorney,
they know more about the doctor, they know more about the therapist than even the therapist does.
And I don't even have to go to therapy to know that. So that is that sign of emotional immaturity.
But it's interesting, though, because it just shows you the links that people
go to, and a lot of it's subconscious, to then put themselves in the center of every narrative.
I know, I know, and you don't understand, and they got an agenda,
and you can't go see this one.
I mentioned this on a podcast a week or so ago on the virtual couch,
but it's this concept around having now seen close to 1,500 couples where a new couples therapist,
because I was this at one point, will then sometimes question maybe one of my
clients if they're interacting with them as an individual saying,
well, wait, he can't see the couple and then still talk to you guys individually.
Usually that graduate school said you can't do that.
But then there's enough of us couples therapists that have been doing this for
a long time that recognize, okay, that's what I know how to do.
And I'm very comfortable in doing that.
And so then if somebody is trying to tell me you can't do that,
it might be a good idea to start with some curiosity and ask,
what's that experience like?
Do you ever find that that's difficult or what is difficult about it?
Or at what point and how many couples and how many years doing this,
did you finally feel like that was something thing that you could do and still
maintain the integrity of the therapeutic alliance versus the,
well, I don't think that they should be able to do that.
Again, putting yourself at the center of every narrative and then expecting
somebody else to follow along without question.
We're moving to Arizona. I had someone maybe a couple of weeks ago spend quite
a bit of time reminding me how hot it is in Arizona, as if I had never thought about that.
And I thought it was really interesting because they just said,
okay, as long as you know. So I do.
And they continued on that narrative as if then now I was supposed to,
I think during that session, call off the entire move.
And try to purchase my house back and sell the house that we had bought,
let the entire family know that's moved because this person's like,
okay, I'm just saying it's pretty hot.
So that person had inserted themselves in the center of that narrative.
And it's adorable. It really is.
Here's another story. Recently, we found out that my husband's mother had to
go to the hospital due to some flu-like symptoms, especially concerning because
of her history with stroke.
And I naturally started asking more questions to try to understand the situation
better. Hey, what was was wrong with your mom?
But my husband just went and sat on the couch and started playing on his phone,
ignoring my attempts to engage.
I sat next to him in silence, trying to just think of helpful suggestions,
such as ways to maybe we could get more information since apparently his dad
didn't have any updates.
And she said, I suggested a couple of things.
The next day though, he criticized me for being cold and not offering him a
hug despite my efforts to support him. And she said, feel free to use this story on your podcast.
Also, there was an incident that somebody shared last Last year,
when we were walking in the neighborhood with a friend, a car passed by,
and my husband claimed that somebody in the car threw a rock at him,
so he reacted by yelling at the vehicle, but the car didn't even stop or react
in any noticeable way as it drove by.
She said, my friend and I were puzzled because we hadn't seen anybody throw
anything, and when I asked my husband to clarify, his story started to fall
apart. I wasn't really sure if it was actually a rock.
And she said, I suggested that maybe a car just kicked up a pebble or something,
but he insisted, no, that was impossible according to his understanding of the laws of physics.
However, she then found herself literally looking up the laws of physics and
found that it was possible that the car tire could kick up a rock.
But despite this, then her questioning turned her into the enemy in his eyes.
And he ended up more upset with her than the supposed rock throwing incident,
which nobody else witnessed in the car showed no signs of aggression or acknowledgement.
And she said this issue years later still comes up and causes tension between
us, that he never supported her during the time where those hooligans chucked.
Those giant boulders from the passing by car.
Another person said during the love bombing phase, he constantly complimented
my appearance, never missing a chance to comment on my beauty.
However, that eventually ceased. And she said sometimes seeking reassurance,
I would ask, do you still think I'm pretty or are you still attracted to me?
And rather than offering reassurance, his responses were eye rolls or dismissive
comments like, well, if you don't know, then I think that's on you.
And she said, for me, the most significant pain points have been the unfulfilled
promises that he's left all responsibilities and burdens to me,
offering no assistance with the kids, household chores, financial support.
She said, it's watching me struggle without offering any help.
Then somebody else said, oh my gosh, I experienced that too.
And then he would also say, you would be so much more attractive if you'd fill
in the blank, which he said, usually lose weight.
Another person responded and said, totally agree with leaving all the burdens
and responsibility of the house. I couldn't ask him to help because he didn't
like authority, so he would fight against it.
I couldn't expect him to do anything without being asked because how was he
supposed to know that things needed to be done?
But then if I did it myself, then I was being passive-aggressive by doing it around him.
So I ended up doing a lot of the housework when he wasn't around so he wouldn't
feel bad that he was sitting on the sofa while he did it, which then prompted
him to say I didn't do anything because he never saw it.
Another person said, absolutely, or making me feel guilty for doing housework
instead of sitting around like him. He would get mad because then I'm not spending time with him.
If I'm upset, the house is a mess, then that's on me because he's not expecting
it. So darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Another person, yes, in all capital letters. And if he ever had anything to
do, mow the lawn, for example, he complained that he was never home and he just
wanted to relax and be with the kids.
And it wasn't fair of me to ask him to spend time away from them on his one day off.
Sympathy grab. I just, I put a little note in there when I was reading through
these, moms never have the day off.
And then someone responded and said, were we married to the same man?
And my first thought was, this week on the Jerry Springer Show?
Yes, in fact, they were. And let's talk about something that's both,
it's sad and honestly, it's all too common in relationships where,
again, there's emotional immaturity
or where there are more of these narcissistic traits and tendencies.
And it's about these moments then when somebody shares something deeply,
it can be really personal, something that makes you feel vulnerable,
like when you're worried your partner might not find you attractive anymore.
And I am the very first person to say that that sounded narcissistic.
I am one who very much believes that self-love is crucial and that we need to
find that acceptance and love within ourselves.
And as somebody that's been on that journey of becoming moving toward more emotional
maturity from emotional immaturity, it we definitely don't know what we don't
know when you still don't feel comfortable in your own skin.
And when you get closer to that place, then it is easier for somebody to.
Tell you what they think you're supposed to do. And you can sit with that discomfort,
be a little more curious, because ultimately, it's a you thing in a good way.
But there are times if we're being real, where we are looking for that little
bit of reassurance from our partner.
You know, it is like we're sending out these emotional bids asking,
do you see me? Do you love me? Do you have my back? Can I count on you?
And it's in those moments, then that's where it feels like you are handing somebody your heart.
But what happens then when instead of cherishing it or being grateful for that
gift of somebody sharing their vulnerability or feelings or emotions with you,
if they take it and then they scrunch it up and they throw it on the ground and they stomp on it,
you know, when they use your vulnerability against you to control or manipulate, it's heartbreaking.
And over time, this leads to a place where you just stop sharing your feelings
with your spouse or the person that is in this emotionally manipulative or coercive situation.
Why? Because there's a good chance those feelings won't be validated or even
acknowledged. You might be nothing or they'll be weaponized against you.
And then those insecurities that you opened up about that you finally felt like
I can share with somebody when you're seeking reassurance from the one person
who's supposed to have your back.
When then that person then throws this vulnerability back in your face as a
tool of manipulation or control. And that's a tough spot to be in.
Because you start to realize that the very things that you shared in confidence,
hoping for support, can and will be used against you.
And it becomes this reminder of the importance of feeling emotionally safe in relationships.
Because without it, we find ourselves holding back. We're protecting our hearts
from the very person who should be helping us guard it. Let me get back to the stories.
My daughter visited my house with a message from my ex about the dog,
mentioning how much he missed the dog. At first glance, it might have seemed
like a trivial comment, but she said, I'm thankful for the support of others
in the group who understood the impact that it had on her.
She said, it felt like a subtle jab at me, implying I miss the dog,
but not you, and portrayed him as the victim to my daughter,
suggesting, poor me, your mom took the dog away.
She said this situation stirred up feelings of guilt towards him and frustration
and sadness for her daughter.
She said her daughter then was unfairly placed in the middle.
And she said it also felt like an intrusion into the new space that she's been
trying to create for herself to move on and heal.
Let me just address that for a second, too. I think what is really difficult
is people get into these situations of where there is going to be a divorce
and they say, OK, we just want to do what's best for the kids.
And I will say then I think so often in that moment that people do mean it feels
like the right thing to say in that moment.
And that is what they want to do. But then you get out of that moment and now
the first time that maybe one of the kids is complaining about having to go
between houses and then the more emotionally immature person says,
well, I wish it wasn't happening either.
That's your dad wanted the divorce.
And I think that can be a really difficult thing to put the kid in the middle.
And when people will say, well, I'm just being honest.
Okay. OK, but that's a you issue of being able to sit with that discomfort of
wanting to express your frustration and anger.
Do that to a therapist or to maybe an adult friend.
But to your kid, what a chance for you to say, man, I know that that sounds
hard, but I really appreciate the way you're showing up.
And hey, what can we do? What can we do today? Because I'm just grateful to have this time with you.
That is a big difference than, yeah, I know I hate it too, champ.
I wish we didn't have to do this. But, you know, what are we supposed to do?
Your mom doesn't want me back in the house.
Because that kid, that is putting that burden over on the kid.
This is a you thing and an opportunity for you to learn how to recognize your
own frustration and then show up for your kid and show them that,
hey, we care about you and we love you regardless.
Small tangent there. All right, back to the stories. Another person said.
When she couldn't and felt like
she wanted to cry during the ride home was met with his cold derision.
He would calmly demean me, call me ridiculous, pathetic, childish,
and he would threaten divorce for my reactions.
And then his calm and collected demeanor made it difficult for me to recognize
the abuse for what it was, that she's allowed to have her feelings.
And I appreciate when she's even saying that that concept of if his family is
argumentative, and I think in his his position, there's a chance for him to defend her.
Because if that is not who she
is by nature, then who is he to then demand that or expect that of her?
And this stuff tugs at my heartstrings, sounding dramatic, because it brings
us back to that fundamental reason why we often feel like we can't freely express our emotions.
Again, our emotions are there for a very crucial reason.
They help us understand ourselves better. Because from a young age,
even the most well-intentioned parents aim to teach their kids the difference
between right and wrong, but we're kids and we're just being kids and exploring
the world in our very unique, messy, loud ways.
And if the kid is frequently met with corrections and critiques,
which again, even I know I did a lot of that is when my kids were little,
because we do, we really want to protect their kids.
We want to try to teach them these meaningful lessons.
But so often we do that at the expense of being able to just be there for them,
provide Provide that secure attachment and not this feeling that they are not
doing it right when it is life or that they there's this conditional love that's
attached that if they don't do it the way that I want them to,
then I will not be happy or I will not give them validation.
So, we so often meet our kids with the, you know, hey, we don't say that,
or why did you do that, or use a softer voice, or speak up, I can't hear you,
and it doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as you do it,
except for why did you do it that way, and what were you thinking,
and you should have known better.
So, over time, that constant feedback starts to lead a kid to believe that simply
being themselves is not acceptable, and their emotions, if they express them,
apparently are wrong. So they start to internalize those emotions.
They become more reactive, feeling like they need somebody else to validate
their actions or tell them that it's okay to feel a certain way.
And that's a tough cycle where just being yourself starts to feel like somehow it's wrong.
And this is why it's so important for us to understand and validate our emotions,
recognize them as a natural and very essential part of who we are,
because they ultimately guide us through this, the journey of life,
of self-discovery, of growth. Okay, back to the stories.
Another woman said there are so many instances that come to mind.
For example, during disagreements, my husband often threatens to skip upcoming social events.
This has been his tactic for years, but he recently confessed that he does this
to punish me, hoping I'll feel the absence of his, and she put in quotation marks, support.
Additionally, he's begun neglecting his duties as a parent during these times,
refusing to take our younger kids to sports practices, birthday parties,
and other activities that her child was looking forward forward to to punish me.
She said, though, however, one of the most distressing incidents occurred during
a family camping trip about six hours from home amid a minor disagreement where
he was trying to control me and I resisted. He threatened to leave us at the
beach near our campground and he was going to hitchhike home.
She said this was particularly alarming given our heightened concerns about
COVID at the time, which had led him to impose strict public safety measures
on our family, including wiping down our groceries.
So moreover, he was aware of these crucial details about our new camper that
I wasn't making his threat even more concerning.
And he made this threat in front of our then toddler. She said,
I chose not to intervene, pretending to leave.
He then actually ended up hiding behind a bush near the truck.
She said a couple hours later, as her son and her were returning to the truck,
he emerged and he was so frustrated that I hadn't sought him out or attempted to stop him on the road.
Next, someone said, my husband openly acknowledges his hypochondria and frequently
experiences both genuine and explicable illnesses.
This often leads him to withdraw from responsibilities at our shared workplace
and at home, opting to rest in the afternoon or retire early,
even before our son's bedtime.
Despite this, he prioritizes his workouts as part of his self-care routine.
However, when I don't feel well, he still expects me to prepare meals for the
family, handle the cleanup.
She said, I've recently set boundaries around this behavior,
but he attempts to make me feel so guilty for doing so.
She said, he also makes me feel guilty if I want to prepare prepare a meal for
friends who are either seriously ill or have just had a baby,
arguing that it's not in our budget, even though we most definitely can afford
it, or that it detracts from family time.
I think this is an interesting one, as simple as that sounds.
But is it because we can't afford it, or is it because it detracts from family time?
And I often feel like those are those subtle instances where the emotionally
immature is just trying to find the right button to push that will will get
the person to react so that then he can jump back into that position of control.
Another person said that her husband's an enthusiastic garage sale shopper and
has found many valuable items for her home and family, which we might not have
been able to afford otherwise. So she's starting out with a positive.
She says, I'm grateful for his efforts and I try to show my appreciation.
But if I express a desire for something new, like a sweater,
she said, considering I literally haven't bought one in over a decade,
he accuses me of being ungrateful for the clothes that he has found for me,
suggesting that he's already provided everything that I could possibly need.
There's no curiosity or questions there. there.
Another person said, after the holidays, my husband approached me expressing
concerns about our budget being tight.
He requested that I jot down every anticipated expense for the upcoming month.
When I sought clarification, asking if this included the basic household items
like soap, which she said fell under her purview, and no, I did not have to look that up.
Okay, yes, maybe I did, and that does mean under her scope of influence.
Then he confirmed that, yeah, that did. And she said, I found this request unreasonable
given our financial situation isn't dire. We've had numerous discussions confirming this.
So she said, I suggested that his request seemed more rooted in trust issues
and then asked him to elaborate, tell me more.
He then quickly changed his stance, claiming he thought that I was referring
to, oh, it's a fancy soap, something that she says we've actually never purchased
in the 13 years that we've been together.
The very next day, he dedicated the morning and early afternoon to organizing
a very expensive vacation with his extended family.
He not only researched and booked an Airbnb, BNB, but also insisted on a $2,500
deposit, a larger sum than any other family member, including his financially
stable parents, what they had committed to.
So this move, she said, was perplexing, especially following our recent conversation
about budgeting down to the cost of soap.
When I questioned the discrepancy between his budgeting concerns and his eagerness
to book an expensive vacation, then he staunchly defended his actions.
She said this situation felt more like emotional whiplash than the gradual erosion
of death by a thousand cuts, but it's all part of the same troubling pattern,
feel free to share the story as you see fit.
Another person said, my husband often complained about me going to bed earlier
than him feeling left alone at night.
Last summer, she said I was dealing with severe nerve pain that made it impossible for me to sleep.
I would leave the bedroom to sit with my heat pack for some relief.
One night, and this one gets really interesting. She said one night because
she left the bedroom and then came out to where he was, he mentioned that my
being there disrupted his time spent looking at porn.
She said he moved out at the end of that summer, coincidentally the day before
I started a new job, leaving me emotionally distraught on my first day.
Now she asked a very good follow-up. She said, by the way, Tony,
I'd appreciate any insights you might have on how porn plays a role in emotionally
immature relationships.
She said, it seemed like my husband used it as a way to avoid working on our connection.
He would then make me feel guilty
for his porn usage, blaming it on my not fulfilling his sexual desires,
which only made me feel unsafe about And additionally.
Therapy model. We got the four pillars, or we're talking about acceptance and commitment therapy.
But I also have a book called He's a Porn Addict, Now What?
An Expert and a Former Addict to Answer Your Questions, which spent a couple
of years on the sexual health and recovery bestseller list.
And I have an online pornography recovery program called The Path Back,
which is an amazing program.
I feel very good about that, helped a lot of people with that.
And so I do identify that porn Porn is a coping mechanism that typically people
turn to when they feel, I always say, a lack of connection in one of five areas.
When they don't feel connected in their marriage, when they don't feel connected
as a parent, when they're struggling with their faith, their health, or their work.
And when those things happen, they turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Things like porn or work, alcohol, drugs, their phone.
It can be a lot of different things to cope. And so then when I'm trying to
help people then become better in these areas, those five voided areas,
then they turn to those unhealthy coping mechanisms less.
So when you look at the concepts around emotional immaturity,
there is a lot of impulsivity.
Maybe somebody that just doesn't like to sit with any discomfort,
they're going to get rid of that discomfort by turning to a coping mechanism.
So, a lot of times, I think it's safe to say that in these situations,
the guy is not feeling connected in his relationship or his marriage.
And how does he get rid of his discomfort? He pushes it off to his wife because
he's not willing to sit with that discomfort or take ownership.
And then what's the way to get rid of his discomfort is then turning to porn,
but then not wanting to be able to sit with the fact that he turns to pornography
and objectifies women or the concept of where it can warp somebody's sexuality.
Sexuality and I'm just given such a broad overview.
And I think this would be a great topic for a podcast in the future.
But then in that scenario, then here comes that confabulation that I have to
change the narrative because it can't be that I'm wanting to look at porn.
It's because you aren't being intimate enough.
We're not having enough sex. So again, he can't sit with that,
take ownership of that. It is uncomfortable.
Turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism, then confabulate the narrative that I kid, this isn't who I am.
It's because of you. So, I think there's a lot to be said there that we could
talk about in a future episode.
And another person then said on the same thread, she said, yeah,
I've had a similar experience receiving complaints about not being intimate enough.
But when I attempted to initiate intimacy, I was rejected because he had already,
and she put in quotes, sorted himself out with porn earlier.
She said he blamed me for this, of why he had to turn to porn,
yet he never made any effort to initiate intimacy himself.
Another person said that she had mentioned that it would be nice to set a romantic
mood, perhaps light a candle, play some music, but even these small gestures
were seen as too demanding, which is very interesting.
She said, honestly, it felt like he preferred to be left alone with his alcohol,
his porn, and his PlayStation.
He couldn't admit, by the way, that has to be in a country song lyric,
but he couldn't admit his, this preference possibly due to deep-seated shame.
So instead he blamed me for his reliance on those things. Again,
he doesn't want to take ownership of that, sit with that discomfort. So it has to be her fault.
And there's a person in the group that I just, she does such an amazing job
responding and it's just solid.
Here's what she said about it. And I think she's so spot on.
And again, we'll still cover this in an upcoming episode, but she said many
individuals who frequently use porn started at a young age during a critical
period when their brains were developing capacities for empathy,
compassion, and understanding others.
Instead, their minds were inundated with content that objectifies and reduces
human interaction to mere consumption of bodies.
This can significantly hinder their their emotional and psychological growth.
She said, it's important to recognize that you can't be held accountable for
behaviors and patterns that were established long before you came into their lives.
Such habits can condition their brains to view women as objects for their entitlement and use.
And this skewed perspective distorts their understanding of reality and relationships,
leading them to conflate sex with love.
They fail to grasp the essence of true intimacy and connection because they've
never learned to value another person in deep, meaningful, and respectful ways.
So for somebody emotionally immature, porn is appealing because it's always
accessible, demands nothing from them, and doesn't challenge their behavior.
So well said. Another person responded, this is now a separate topic, separate thread.
She said, when my therapist highlighted that a significant issue in our relationship
was my husband's failure to celebrate my achievements, I brought it up after
a marriage counseling session.
His response was, well, what is there to celebrate or be proud of?
And she said that left her so disheartened.
For instance, she said he belittled my accomplishment of graduating with an
associate's degree mocking it because it was from a community college.
Similarly, he dismissed the significance of me giving birth to our children,
stating you couldn't help giving birth and you didn't do a particularly amazing job anyway.
Which, sorry for the mothers who heard that just now, because I think if guys
had to have babies, they probably wouldn't be around. I can't imagine doing that.
He trivialized births as routine and suggested I needed his help rather than
acknowledgement or of pride.
That's just wild. Another person said, despite both of us being raised Catholic
and marrying in the church, he reneged on his promise to support raising our
children in the faith after losing his own.
This betrayal was particularly painful after we moved across the country for
his career, a move I agreed to partly because he vowed to assist with taking
the kids to mass, recognizing I couldn't manage it alone.
Yet when I sought his help, he criticized me, saying it's really messed up that
the religious person needs the atheist to get her to church.
Now, ironically, he now opposes divorce on the grounds of our Catholic faith,
treating marriage as a sacrament despite his earlier actions.
And I think that's, I would imagine, because that's how the button that he can
push then get her to then stay in the position, that one down position, so he has that control.
Control another person said his insensitivity is extended to
my feelings about my body especially in relation to his viewing of pornography
when i expressed insecurity comparing myself to the unrealistic standards set
by such content he insensitively suggested that there's a niche for everyone
and i don't even want to give this the airtime but he said including grandmother
things despite me being only 35 what an insult.
She says that, and this is her pathological kindness, I would imagine,
because she says, although he might have intended to reassure me,
his comment lingers in my mind, especially when I see my stretch marks.
She said, it feels shallow to dwell on this considering these marks are a testament
to carrying, birthing, and nurturing three beautiful children,
a sacrifice I would willingly make again, yet it's painful that their father
never appreciated any of these sacrifices.
She said, I'm sharing this as is, feeling okay about it.
And I'm grateful that she felt confident enough to share that because that's
not okay to say that and expect that to have your partner feel safe and opening up about anything.
Another person said, you're welcome to use any of these examples as they are.
Some might seem trivial, but they were significant in my experience.
He frequently accused me of being mentally and emotionally unstable,
especially if he disapproved of something I did or said.
He often claimed I was upset when I wasn't using it as a pretext to be angry with me.
He criticized me for not being sufficiently grateful or for not expressing thanks
Thanks properly, not just to him, but also to his family and even to kind of
strangers labeling me as arrogant and entitled.
He was overly concerned about my posture, constantly telling me to pull my shoulders
back and sometimes physically adjusting them himself while shopping.
He accused me of being reckless with the shopping cart and obstructing other people's paths.
He complained that my voice was piercing and hurt his ears, leading me to adjust
my volume only for him to then say he couldn't hear me speak up.
She said, this has left me feeling anxious about speaking up in any setting.
He ridiculed the way I sit while driving.
Whenever we dined out, it had to be his idea. If I suggested a place,
he would either give me the silent treatment all night or criticize my behavior throughout our outing.
However, she said this never happened when we went to a place that he chose.
Eventually, I stopped making suggestions, but then he would complain that I
showed no interest in our outings.
I just feel like if you need to hit the back button a couple of times on your
podcast player, and listen to that list one more time.
And then just have that reality check in with yourself.
Because remember, our partner, our child, our friend, they are their own person
brimming with emotion and experiences and light and life and talents and abilities.
But all too often, those who are emotionally immature or who display these narcissistic
traits and tendencies seem to have, it's called an antagonistic relationship
with those people around them.
And while I am usually not one to deep dive into scientific concepts,
the situation is something from biology called antagonism. And it's this idea
where one organism benefits at the expense of another.
So in the context of relationships, it's like the emotionally immature or narcissistic
individual thrives while diminishing the other person. Which is just something worth reflecting on.
That if one person can only feel better about themselves when they take down
another person, then that is an incredibly unhealthy relationship.
So if that resonates with you even slightly, then I would highly recommend that
you reach out to somebody to get some help. because that itself comes from your
own childhood wounding, a feeling like you have to control somebody into loving
you. But you can't do that.
You can have love or control in an adult relationship, period. Not both.
So with that said, I...
When I can take a minute and talk about what a healthy, mature relationship
looks like, especially in contrast to those, the dynamics that I just laid out
there, that antagonistic attachment style,
it's in essence, picture two people securely attached, navigating life side by side.
They are in it together. They're aiming for common goals. They offer and receive
empathy and it's second nature.
They don't have to question what does that person mean by this?
And if they do, they can ask. and they are two completely interdependent,
unique individuals that of course have different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions.
And that's what is so attractive about the other person is that I want to get
to know them and they want to get to know me. It's not that I want to control them.
It's then being able to share the real, the true and the heartfelt version of you.
And that starts to lay down the solid foundation of trust and intimacy with
every word, with every gesture and everything becomes an opportunity for you
to self-confront and grow and for you to find out more about what your partner's
experience is and in efforts to have,
again, these amazing shared experiences or to make you a better person.
And yes, you will bump heads from time to time. Disagreements, sure.
They're part of the package. But here's the kicker. The mutual support, that part, solid.
The respect and love that you have for each other, it's not negotiable.
Those are not things that are up for debate or they're not threatened by the
rough patches. So this is what a cooperative approach to a relationship looks like.
You're working as a team where empathy and all kinds of truth,
vulnerability, affection, those are the building blocks of something that is
genuinely profound and therefore lasts.
There's no control, no manipulation, none. What I thought would be interesting
to do is flip the script and then talk about what then one as an adult human being in a healthy,
non-controlling relationship can be and do what they're absolutely entitled to do.
Because remembering that your feelings, your actions, your decisions are absolutely valid.
So I'm going to go back to that list. This is why I suggested maybe backing
up and listen to that list again.
Let me go through that list now of if this person is in a healthy relationship.
You have the right to experience and express your emotions without being labeled as unstable.
Your feelings are valid, regardless of whether someone else approves or understands them.
You're allowed to feel calm and not upset, and you don't need to justify your
emotional state to anybody.
And if you're not upset, you're not upset, period. period.
Expressing gratitude is beautiful, but you're not obligated to perform appreciation
in a specific way to meet somebody else's expectation or to make them give you that approval.
Your gratitude, when you choose to express it, is enough.
Your posture is yours to manage. You're the only one who gets to decide how you stand or sit or walk.
If you're comfortable, it's all that matters. And if you're not, then get some help.
Shopping carts and how you navigate them, turns out that's your business.
Moving through a store, it's about your comfort and convenience.
It's about if you want to choose the one with the wobbly wheel,
you go for it. It's not about adhering to somebody else's standards of cart etiquette.
And your voice, literally your voice, is uniquely yours. Whether it is loud
or soft or somewhere in between, you don't need to modulate it to suit somebody else's preferences.
Speak in the way that feels right to you. The way you sit while driving should
be about your comfort and safety, not about meeting somebody else's aesthetic
standards. standards, suggesting places to eat, activities to do,
or anything that involves decision-making in a relationship.
Turns out it's a two-way street and you should feel free to make suggestions
without fear of the silent treatment or criticism because it turns out your
ideas and preferences matter just as much as your partner's.
So in a healthy relationship, you're encouraged to be yourself,
to express your needs, make decisions together.
It's about mutual respect and support and understanding where both partners
feel valued and they both feel heard.
Another person said that they're okay with me sharing everything.
The episode on death by a thousand cuts, she said, was a turning point for her.
And it was when she realized that she had found the help that she needed.
She said, can we talk about financial thousand cuts?
She said, when seeking advice, I often encountered noncommittal responses with
others likening their experiences to mine or advising patients or emphasizing
the importance of supporting my husband through job difficulties.
So she said, because of that.
She said, I avoided discussing financial issues. I never initiated conversations about budgeting.
After enduring gaslighting and playing the victim, he'd agree to a budget,
but then never last more than a month. I did an episode a while ago on shelf life.
He lied about his lunch expenses. He had fast food receipts and trash.
He played the victim when I expressed frustration over his lack of full work
days or concern for our financial struggles.
He refused to seek financial advice or assistance.
Job hopping was frequent, blaming the economy, bosses, or others.
He ensured funds were available for his sports viewing. He failed to acknowledge
the effort and humiliation involved in applying for financial assistance programs.
She said, my birthday was typically ignored during his unemployment.
He adopted a victim stance when I sought help from church leaders.
Financial discussions were redirected to how they impacted him,
with complaints about how budgeting highlighted his earnings and made him feel bad.
His mother employed him for basement work, which she calls it,
rewarding him with clothes, gadgets, while our family struggled.
And he blamed me for being dissatisfied with his income, painting me as greedy
in counseling sessions.
She said, if I prepared leftovers for dinner, then he would make himself a different meal.
She said, these financial challenges were just another layer of the complex
difficulties that we faced, underscoring the emotional and practical struggles
within our relationship.
And another person addressed the financial control as well. She said,
throughout our marriage as a stay-at-home mom, I had no control over her finances,
which were entirely managed by my husband, including investments.
When he sold a property and considered reinvesting the proceeds,
I suggested buying a small vacation home for our children to enjoy during the
summer, which could also be rented out.
However, after viewing a few properties, he dismissed the idea,
claiming it wouldn't be profitable, and instead invested in the stock market,
where he unfortunately lost a significant portion of the money.
She said, I was responsible for purchasing groceries, children's clothing,
school pictures, and even furniture, but I could only use one specific credit
card, and I was on a strict budget.
The monthly bill-paying session was a dreaded event.
Any overspending, whether by $50 or $500, resulted in hours of beratement.
He blamed me for potential future failures, such as the kids not attending college
or the inability to go on a vacation, questioning how I managed before we were married.
My allowance, she called it, was $300 biweekly, from which any overspending
was deducted as my punishment.
This situation was so distressing that I would pretend to sleep to avoid confrontation,
feeling utterly incapable and fearful of independence.
Despite living in a $3 million inherited home, rent-free, the financial scrutiny
over minor amounts was baffling. As I leave this marriage, I'm resigned to receiving
nothing from the home where I raised our children, a place that actually never truly felt like mine.
She said on one occasion while chatting with a neighbor, I decided to bring in the garbage bins.
Typically, my husband's task is a kind gesture.
Upon his return, instead of expressing gratitude, he criticized the placement
of the bins, particularly the compost bin, which he claimed made his task more difficult.
When I addressed his comment, he accused me of overreacting,
asserting his right to dictate household operations because we were married.
Another person said, you are welcome to share any of these experiences.
They might seem minor to some, but then again, were profoundly impactful for me.
She said, gifts became a source of disappointment rather than joy.
The first Christmas after we were married, he gave me pots and pans and for
my birthday, a vacuum cleaner.
When my daughters excitedly chose a portable record player for his vast but
unused record collection, his reaction was dismissive and critical,
leaving them and me heartbroken.
My gifts remained predictably uninspired, highlighting a lack of thoughtfulness
and attention. Thank you for your attention.
His behavior in public, like overly staging affectionate reunions with our daughter
to garner attention, felt disingenuous and focused more on appearances than genuine connection.
The daily interrogations about my activities and conversations left me walking
on eggshells, creating a constant state of anxiety and humiliation.
Rigid dinner routines and unrealistic expectations around household chores,
like bringing in the garbage bins, were enforced under his critical eye,
often leading to unnecessary conflict and criticism. narcissism.
Comparisons to his late mother set an impossible standard, making me feel inadequate
and undervalued, a sentiment that extended to his father's comparisons as well.
She said her volunteer work, particularly her involvement with the Red Cross
at Ground Zero, became a source of shame rather than pride under his scrutiny,
leading me to hide this significant part of my life, even from our children.
She said that had been a huge part of her life. Eventually, I couldn't mention
any of my experience around Ground Zero.
She said I put my hard hat and vest in a box in the garage and never mentioned it again.
He made me ashamed of something I was once proud of. My kids didn't know about
it until they were teenagers.
They were shocked and couldn't believe I had kept that from them.
They learned all about it in school and were very proud of me.
His insecurities seemed to make them feel that my achievements somehow made him look less than.
So he belittled me until I broke.
Counseling sought as a means of healing turned into another battleground with
his insistence on a male counselor and eventual dismissal of the process reflecting
on his unwillingness to address our issues constructively.
His accusations of a guilty conscience and dismissive apologies after exhaustive
arguments left me feeling empty and questioning my own sanity,
contributing to a decline in my mental well-being and my memory.
The constant invasion of privacy and lack of respect for personal boundaries
exacerbated feelings of anxiety and panic, profoundly affecting my sense of
safety and comfort in my own home.
So, she said, these experiences, while individually they might seem small,
they collectively represent present a profound impact on my well-being and my
self-perception, underscoring the deep and lasting effects of living in a controlling
and an unsupportive relationship.
Okay, I think I've got plenty more that we'll just save for the eighth installment
of Death by a Thousand Cuts, but thanks for taking the time today.
And hopefully you can see that through all of these stories and reflections
that there is a bit of a silver lining that keeps shining through and it's about realizing that,
yeah, Yeah, these people have faced these challenges that most would probably
knock most people off their feet.
But then here are these people sharing these experiences, whether it's in a
group, sending me the emails.
And as they're starting to put these pieces together, they are recognizing that
they are surviving and they're starting to get stronger.
And yeah, it's a bit of a slow process, but you really are right where you need to be.
And you're doing as much as you can right now. And with that acceptance and
hearing and taking in this information, it is starting to change the interior
landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be you.
And it's just a reminder that we're not just surviving these experiences,
you're learning from them too.
And you're starting to gather up a lot of wisdom and not just to even heal yourself,
but you can also start lighting the way for others on this path too.
Let me give a couple of action steps that I think are key.
One of those is spend a little bit of time journaling, honestly, or self-reflection.
Whether it's daily or weekly, it doesn't have to be in a narrative format.
But I really feel like it's important to write down some of these experiences
because your short-term memory is probably on life support right now because
your whole brain is focused on trying to make sense of the nonsense.
And part of that complex post-traumatic stress disorder is that eventually your
brain is sending all its blood flow to the amygdala to then get ready for battle.
And one of the areas that it robs is the short-term memory, the hippocampus.
So it is important to write things down. I used to feel like that maybe isn't
as productive to write down all the negative things that have happened.
But when you start questioning your own sanity and thinking that things maybe
aren't so bad, I think it would help to be able to look back.
I think it could help to look back and see that, no, I'm not crazy.
These things happened. And you've most likely tried to put a nice shine,
maybe a matte finish, a gloss over a lot of these things that happen,
if you can remember them at all.
But remembering them is part of your healing and being able to recognize that
my body is trying to tell me something and I can't just keep shoving all this stuff away.
Jot some of those things down. And then over time, I think that practice alone
can help you clarify your thoughts.
It'll help you to strengthen your understanding of your own worth and maybe
guide you as you're starting to set those boundaries that will hopefully eventually
give you this place where it protects and helps you respect your own emotional well-being.
And then find help. As a therapist, I think it's a great idea to seek professional
help, but you can also find supportive communities, whether online,
in person, that focus on your emotional health, your recovery from controlling
or emotionally neglectful relationships.
And that's where maybe right now we need to go for the validation or understanding
or shared experiences, because that can help remind you you're not alone.
And it can be scary to enter into a group, but it is one of the most healing
things that you can be a part of.
And then truly do look for that professional help if you need it, which it never hurts.
And then remember that sharing your story, hearing others, that is part of the
healing process. It is empowering.
Let's wrap this thing up. It's
okay to seek out those relationships that truly reflect what we value.
Respect, empathy, mutual reciprocity, genuine connection.
And then the acceptance that you're here and in order to get the tools that
you're going going to need to become the very best version of you,
you had to go through some of these things to then even know that you needed change.
So it doesn't sound like a great sales pitch for life, but then now that you're
here and that happened, and now you're on this path of healing,
I promise that you just keep staying down this path and raising that baseline
and get that PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations,
set healthy boundaries, and realize that there's nothing you can do or say that
will cause the other person to have that aha moment or epiphany.
And you're going to start finding yourself in a place where what it feels like
to be you is you're a pretty good hang. It's a good time.
Here's to moving forward. You're on a path of discovery, enlightenment.
You are absolutely worthy of love, of respect, of being heard and valued.
You are enough, period, end of story. You have everything you need already bundled up inside of you.
And this life, in my opinion, is the opportunity to unlock all those those wonderful,
amazing things that make up who you are.
And while ideally that would be done in a mutually reciprocal relationship,
we don't have those crystal balls when we're getting into relationships.
We don't know what we don't know as we navigate life and then things come up
and we have an opportunity for growth.
Here's to that growth. Taking us out per usual, the wonderful,
the talented Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful.
Music.
Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you.
Music.