WEBVTT

00:00:03.217 --> 00:00:06.377
Hey, everybody. Welcome to a special crossover episode.

00:00:06.517 --> 00:00:13.157
This is episode 111 of Waking Up to Narcissism and episode 419 of The Virtual Couch.

00:00:13.397 --> 00:00:18.977
So actually, if you do the math, we got 111, 419, maybe throw 20 episodes of

00:00:18.977 --> 00:00:21.677
Love ADHD in there, 15 of The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.

00:00:22.017 --> 00:00:25.997
I don't know, maybe a dozen of Murder on the Couch, Carrie the 12,

00:00:26.237 --> 00:00:31.517
and that is roughly roughly, 572 episodes of podcasting.

00:00:31.517 --> 00:00:35.317
Or for my Waking Up to Narcissism audience, using narcissistic math,

00:00:35.497 --> 00:00:37.977
that is well over 10,000 podcast episodes.

00:00:38.177 --> 00:00:42.077
So thank you for joining me. Now, why a crossover episode today?

00:00:42.397 --> 00:00:46.957
There's a couple of reasons. One is the topic of today, Death by a Thousand Cuts.

00:00:47.017 --> 00:00:51.737
These episodes are ones that resonate so much with people on the Waking Up to Narcissism side.

00:00:52.217 --> 00:00:56.197
But I also have people on the virtual couch side of the coin that have talked

00:00:56.197 --> 00:00:58.097
about going over and listening to these as well.

00:00:58.257 --> 00:01:03.357
And for my Virtual Couch audience, the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast is actually

00:01:03.357 --> 00:01:07.777
quite a bit bigger than the Virtual Couch podcast, which I never anticipated.

00:01:07.997 --> 00:01:13.137
And they do hit different demographics when you really break down where they go and the numbers.

00:01:13.197 --> 00:01:19.557
So I just thought, why not? Why not bring all my friends together today to listen to today's podcast?

00:01:19.777 --> 00:01:23.417
So that's one reason that the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes are pretty fascinating.

00:01:23.537 --> 00:01:25.937
And today's has so much content.

00:01:26.257 --> 00:01:29.677
And yeah, there are examples that are heartbreaking.

00:01:29.797 --> 00:01:34.037
And there are some that are just fascinating and will probably resonate with

00:01:34.037 --> 00:01:37.137
a lot of you in your relationships, but not even necessarily,

00:01:37.217 --> 00:01:40.377
I guess, in your relationship, but you may not even be aware that there are

00:01:40.377 --> 00:01:43.837
people around you that you care about that are also in these relationships with

00:01:43.837 --> 00:01:48.957
emotionally immature or people that have strong narcissistic traits or tendencies.

00:01:49.297 --> 00:01:55.297
And hopefully this will help give you even more empathy and the opportunity

00:01:55.297 --> 00:01:59.037
or ability to connect with some people that might be struggling.

00:01:59.057 --> 00:02:02.797
Or again, you might be struggling in your relationship as well. Now, reason number two.

00:02:03.658 --> 00:02:07.258
This is moving week. We're headed to Arizona. And on that note,

00:02:07.338 --> 00:02:11.198
I had never done this or I never have on a podcast. So we'll see how this goes.

00:02:11.318 --> 00:02:15.358
But first of all, sign up for my newsletter at tonyoverbay.com or in the link

00:02:15.358 --> 00:02:16.618
tree in the show notes here.

00:02:16.858 --> 00:02:19.678
And then speaking of my newsletter, this is kind of part of that segue.

00:02:19.938 --> 00:02:23.638
A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned to my newsletter audience about this move.

00:02:23.858 --> 00:02:26.218
And then at the end, I threw in there a little bit of a, hey,

00:02:26.238 --> 00:02:32.158
I might actually have been able to open up some space to have a handful of new

00:02:32.158 --> 00:02:35.878
virtual clients. and the feedback was really, it was really wonderful,

00:02:35.998 --> 00:02:37.858
but I just wanted to put that out there here as well.

00:02:37.998 --> 00:02:42.638
So if you resonate with the material that I put out, either as a couple or as

00:02:42.638 --> 00:02:46.678
an individual, feel free to drop me an email at contact at tonyoverbay.com or

00:02:46.678 --> 00:02:49.698
go through my website and tell me a little bit more about your situation.

00:02:49.858 --> 00:02:54.198
I can't promise anything, but if I can help, I would love to see if that might be a possibility.

00:02:54.558 --> 00:02:57.918
And I also have two amazing associates, Nate and Marla Christensen.

00:02:58.078 --> 00:03:00.878
Yes, they are married and they are both therapists, insert joke there.

00:03:00.878 --> 00:03:03.858
There, Marla was on the Virtual Couch podcast a couple of weeks ago talking

00:03:03.858 --> 00:03:07.378
about grief and loss, but she can work with a variety of things.

00:03:07.498 --> 00:03:12.978
And she has some strong relationship skills from some of the things that she's

00:03:12.978 --> 00:03:13.738
been through in her background.

00:03:13.798 --> 00:03:16.138
We talk about that on that Virtual Couch episode.

00:03:16.338 --> 00:03:19.358
And then Nate has been on, I think, the Virtual Couch half a dozen times,

00:03:19.438 --> 00:03:21.238
also over on Waking Up the Narcissism.

00:03:21.278 --> 00:03:24.438
And he works with addiction and ADHD, anxiety, depression.

00:03:24.438 --> 00:03:27.278
Depression so if you're looking for help and just not

00:03:27.278 --> 00:03:30.378
sure where to go just reach out to me and and i'll

00:03:30.378 --> 00:03:33.218
see what i can do but just a quick heads up too before we dive

00:03:33.218 --> 00:03:36.138
into today's episode it should be dropping on tuesday

00:03:36.138 --> 00:03:38.998
march 19th so if you if you

00:03:38.998 --> 00:03:43.718
like watching things live and you got a tiktok account or youtube then you're

00:03:43.718 --> 00:03:47.358
in luck because my daughter sydney and i are gearing up for our next relationship

00:03:47.358 --> 00:03:52.758
q a session and that is on this wednesday march 20th at 7 30 p.m pacific time

00:03:52.758 --> 00:03:57.058
And you can catch that on TikTok live or on Twitter.

00:03:57.689 --> 00:04:01.509
On YouTube live. And you can always catch the replays on my YouTube channel.

00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:05.269
So talk about death by a thousand cuts. We hear that phrase often,

00:04:05.309 --> 00:04:08.269
and it actually comes from this old harsh punishment called,

00:04:08.409 --> 00:04:10.329
I think it's Ling Chi out of China.

00:04:10.609 --> 00:04:15.209
So if you just set the stage, picture this, it's a slow, painful process where

00:04:15.209 --> 00:04:17.749
the person got these tiny little

00:04:17.749 --> 00:04:22.889
cuts, basically paper cuts over and over until it was just too much.

00:04:22.949 --> 00:04:26.689
But now we're not talking about physical cuts, but emotional and psychological

00:04:26.689 --> 00:04:31.269
ones that come from dealing with someone who's struggling with emotional immaturity,

00:04:31.389 --> 00:04:34.489
or maybe showing some narcissistic traits and tendencies.

00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:40.769
And what this can start to look like is sarcastic comments or a cold shoulder here and there.

00:04:40.889 --> 00:04:44.869
And what is really difficult is those may not seem like a big deal on their

00:04:44.869 --> 00:04:46.509
own, but you start to pile them up.

00:04:46.549 --> 00:04:49.429
And we're talking day after day, year after year, it can even be decade after

00:04:49.429 --> 00:04:52.269
decade. and they really do start to wear a person down.

00:04:52.369 --> 00:04:55.289
It starts to chip away at who you are. It messes with your head.

00:04:55.389 --> 00:04:59.969
And pretty soon, you start to feel all alone in your own relationship.

00:05:00.669 --> 00:05:06.649
But yet also questioning, is this something that I'm causing or creating? Or is it all in my head?

00:05:06.789 --> 00:05:10.389
Or the person that's the more pathologically kind that's trying to make sense

00:05:10.389 --> 00:05:14.669
of things will often say, wait, am I the emotionally mature person? Am I the narcissist?

00:05:15.109 --> 00:05:19.109
But here's the deal, Because I do want to validate those feelings.

00:05:19.189 --> 00:05:21.509
They are real, the feelings that you're having.

00:05:21.709 --> 00:05:26.049
And those small cuts, they are anything but small when they start to pile up.

00:05:26.309 --> 00:05:30.049
So as we start to dive into more of the stories today, you're going to hear

00:05:30.049 --> 00:05:33.929
a lot of those moments that really did leave a mark. And we'll talk about how

00:05:33.929 --> 00:05:37.329
we can start patching ourselves up, how we can start standing strong again.

00:05:37.769 --> 00:05:41.509
And so often, we just don't know what we don't know.

00:05:41.589 --> 00:05:45.329
Now we're here and we're starting to learn more about something that we weren't aware of.

00:05:45.389 --> 00:05:48.329
And that can be a really difficult place to be when you start to wake up to

00:05:48.329 --> 00:05:52.049
this emotional immaturity, whether it's in yourself or in your relationship,

00:05:52.229 --> 00:05:54.029
because it can often then feel like, well, now what do I do?

00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:59.209
But what you do is you just you keep doing and being and listening to podcasts like this.

00:05:59.249 --> 00:06:02.389
And you're on that path of enlightenment. Let me also address,

00:06:02.469 --> 00:06:07.469
before we jump into the examples, why we often feel dismissed when trying to

00:06:07.469 --> 00:06:08.749
share some of these small cuts.

00:06:08.869 --> 00:06:12.649
Because let's say that you have tried to share these with, and let's not say

00:06:12.649 --> 00:06:15.689
maybe necessarily the person that's inflicting those cuts upon you,

00:06:15.729 --> 00:06:17.169
because I'm sure that you've tried to do that already.

00:06:17.309 --> 00:06:20.909
But you start trying to share them maybe with a sibling, an adult sibling,

00:06:21.069 --> 00:06:23.769
maybe a pastor, a bishop, a leader, a friend.

00:06:24.408 --> 00:06:27.888
Because sometimes we just want to feel heard. If we feel like we're being made

00:06:27.888 --> 00:06:31.768
to feel crazy within our relationship, that's one of the first things we need to do is say, am I crazy?

00:06:32.008 --> 00:06:35.008
I need to reach out to somebody. And especially if it's somebody that I think

00:06:35.008 --> 00:06:39.348
that I can trust, but then if they invalidate us, you know, we want somebody

00:06:39.348 --> 00:06:42.268
to tell us that, hey, we're going to be okay, or I see you.

00:06:42.388 --> 00:06:45.028
I know that we need to find that okayness from within.

00:06:45.268 --> 00:06:49.508
I mean, that's a big part of becoming is that you do need to eventually find

00:06:49.508 --> 00:06:53.188
a way to know that you're okay, not need that external validation.

00:06:53.188 --> 00:06:57.608
But that is a process and that one ebbs and flows with your own mood and what's going on in your life.

00:06:57.908 --> 00:07:01.328
But we'll get to that point where you have that okayness from within.

00:07:01.988 --> 00:07:03.968
It's really difficult if you're

00:07:03.968 --> 00:07:07.028
in a relationship where you're starting to bleed out from these cuts.

00:07:07.368 --> 00:07:10.728
So when you do try to open up to your friends and family about the little things

00:07:10.728 --> 00:07:13.708
that maybe your partner does that is really starting to hurt,

00:07:13.828 --> 00:07:17.048
all those little small comments and actions that again, don't seem like much

00:07:17.048 --> 00:07:18.848
on their own, but they add up over time.

00:07:18.968 --> 00:07:21.148
So you finally decide, okay, I'm going to share this with somebody,

00:07:21.228 --> 00:07:24.368
I'm hoping for a bit of understanding, maybe even a shoulder to lean on.

00:07:24.548 --> 00:07:28.108
But instead, you get things like, well, hey, it could be worse.

00:07:28.248 --> 00:07:30.368
Or, oh, no, I totally get it. My partner does the same thing.

00:07:30.608 --> 00:07:33.848
And then just like that, the focus shifts. And it's not about you anymore.

00:07:34.228 --> 00:07:37.628
It's about them making themselves feel better about the conversation.

00:07:37.848 --> 00:07:42.748
I know that people are trying. In that scenario, they feel like they are doing

00:07:42.748 --> 00:07:45.848
something good by telling you, hey, don't worry about it.

00:07:45.868 --> 00:07:48.528
As if you hadn't thought about that, or as if somebody telling you not not to

00:07:48.528 --> 00:07:52.288
worry about it. Then all of a sudden, your fight or flight response calms down.

00:07:52.388 --> 00:07:55.868
Your body no longer keeps the score and you can just go back into the relationship

00:07:55.868 --> 00:07:58.888
and say, I guess it's not so bad. They are trying to help.

00:07:59.088 --> 00:08:03.788
But in doing so, they start to make it about their own comfort of getting rid

00:08:03.788 --> 00:08:06.408
of their discomfort, not about what you're going through.

00:08:06.528 --> 00:08:08.828
And that's from an absolutely bless their heart standpoint.

00:08:09.308 --> 00:08:12.928
Here's the thing. It's human nature to want to fix things, especially when we're

00:08:12.928 --> 00:08:14.208
faced with somebody else's discomfort.

00:08:14.428 --> 00:08:17.948
If you're a parent and your kid comes up to you and they are really sad,

00:08:18.128 --> 00:08:21.528
what do we want to do? We want to say, hey, don't worry about it, bud. It's not a big deal.

00:08:21.928 --> 00:08:24.428
Or, well, what did you do as part of that.

00:08:24.985 --> 00:08:27.525
The situation that you're coming to me with that you're upset about,

00:08:27.645 --> 00:08:31.705
or a not right now, or just take a couple of deep breaths, or we can even be

00:08:31.705 --> 00:08:34.005
doing it from a place of good.

00:08:34.445 --> 00:08:38.445
But what we're doing is invalidating that person because quite frankly,

00:08:38.505 --> 00:08:39.245
it makes us uncomfortable.

00:08:39.745 --> 00:08:43.345
You know, it's, it's like, if we can offer this quick solution or make it seem

00:08:43.345 --> 00:08:45.365
less serious, then we've done our part.

00:08:45.445 --> 00:08:50.445
It's all I can do, but that's not always what we need. It's rarely what we need.

00:08:50.685 --> 00:08:53.085
Sometimes what we're looking for is to be heard, to have somebody acknowledge

00:08:53.085 --> 00:08:57.005
that what what they're going through is tough without trying to brush it off

00:08:57.005 --> 00:08:58.325
or compare it to their own experiences.

00:08:58.405 --> 00:09:01.065
No fixing your judgment statements, not, well, why didn't you,

00:09:01.165 --> 00:09:05.605
or I would have, or you need to tell them, but just that sounds hard. It really does.

00:09:06.085 --> 00:09:10.445
So that's why having a space where we can share and really listen to each other is so important.

00:09:10.725 --> 00:09:14.985
You know, it's not just about talking. It's about feeling that feeling understood

00:09:14.985 --> 00:09:16.365
and really feeling validated.

00:09:16.845 --> 00:09:19.985
And if I'm being real, finding that kind of support, support,

00:09:19.985 --> 00:09:22.125
it can be an absolute game changer.

00:09:22.265 --> 00:09:25.505
And that's what starts to remind us that we're not alone in feeling this way

00:09:25.505 --> 00:09:27.065
and that our experiences do matter.

00:09:27.465 --> 00:09:31.565
So, if you're listening on the virtual couch side or wherever you are,

00:09:31.665 --> 00:09:36.505
I have a private Facebook group for women who are in emotionally immature or

00:09:36.505 --> 00:09:39.865
narcissistic relationships with, it can be anyone, with an adult,

00:09:40.005 --> 00:09:41.805
a parent, it can be an adult child,

00:09:41.985 --> 00:09:45.185
it can be their spouse, it can be somebody at work, it can be a neighbor,

00:09:45.265 --> 00:09:46.685
it can be be a pastor, it can be you name it.

00:09:46.945 --> 00:09:51.465
And then I started a men's group, which I've called Emotional Architects.

00:09:51.465 --> 00:09:55.385
We're learning how to become more emotionally mature and more emotionally consistent.

00:09:55.745 --> 00:09:58.885
And so that, if you're interested in either one of those, reach out,

00:09:58.945 --> 00:10:00.185
contact at TonyOverbay.com.

00:10:00.365 --> 00:10:02.845
So if you never heard one of these episodes before, buckle up,

00:10:02.885 --> 00:10:06.105
listen with an open mind because you might not be the one getting cut or doing

00:10:06.105 --> 00:10:10.165
the cutting, but the chances are that somebody around you that you know is living

00:10:10.165 --> 00:10:14.785
in one of these types of relationships and emotional immaturity knows no gender.

00:10:14.965 --> 00:10:18.305
Yes, there is a small study out of the University of Buffalo that looked at

00:10:18.305 --> 00:10:22.565
about half a million participants over a 30-year period that showed that men

00:10:22.565 --> 00:10:25.265
are more narcissistic or emotionally immature than women.

00:10:25.485 --> 00:10:30.385
And if you're newer to the narcissism angle, or if you hear it being thrown

00:10:30.385 --> 00:10:33.345
out a lot, just know that on my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,

00:10:33.525 --> 00:10:37.825
I'm very intentional about recognizing that if you're just listening to the

00:10:37.825 --> 00:10:40.785
general populace, the zeitgeist, or what people are talking about.

00:10:41.387 --> 00:10:45.007
Probably feels like 80% of the population is narcissistic, when in reality,

00:10:45.127 --> 00:10:50.667
a diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder is most likely met

00:10:50.667 --> 00:10:54.627
by maybe three to four, maybe four and a half percent of the population.

00:10:54.927 --> 00:10:58.707
So that's where I'm hung my shingle, my sign, my hat on.

00:10:59.267 --> 00:11:02.707
Actually, we're all emotionally immature until we're not.

00:11:02.867 --> 00:11:07.547
And those symptoms of emotional immaturity are a lot of what do we do with our discomfort?

00:11:07.827 --> 00:11:12.507
Can I sit with that discomfort? Am Am I willing to self-confront? Can I apologize?

00:11:12.847 --> 00:11:16.407
Can I take ownership for things? And not just from a people-pleasing standpoint,

00:11:16.627 --> 00:11:21.467
but can I do that as a way to grow, even if the person that I'm communicating

00:11:21.467 --> 00:11:23.447
with or in a relationship gets frustrated?

00:11:23.467 --> 00:11:27.867
Because typically, we want to eliminate their frustration to make me feel better.

00:11:28.207 --> 00:11:33.047
And that is more of that emotional immaturity. Is a boundary more of an ultimatum?

00:11:33.127 --> 00:11:37.227
Hey, I need you to not do that anymore, which in reality, I'm just challenged

00:11:37.227 --> 00:11:41.627
that person versus what a real boundary is, is if you do that, then I will leave.

00:11:41.687 --> 00:11:46.587
I'll go on a walk. I'll do something other than be here because that isn't going

00:11:46.587 --> 00:11:49.347
to be met with somebody saying, okay, I respect that.

00:11:49.507 --> 00:11:52.707
You know, typically we're in these relationships where the more pathologically

00:11:52.707 --> 00:11:54.487
kind is with the more emotionally immature.

00:11:54.927 --> 00:11:58.087
And the reality is that means we're both pretty immature.

00:11:58.507 --> 00:12:01.867
But then when somebody starts to change the dynamic in the relationship,

00:12:02.047 --> 00:12:05.567
the other person doesn't typically throw a party and get balloons and party hats.

00:12:05.567 --> 00:12:10.127
They start to push new buttons to try to get you to react because if you all

00:12:10.127 --> 00:12:14.007
of a sudden get better or start to be more emotionally consistent or mature,

00:12:14.247 --> 00:12:19.067
which is our goal as we grow into immature adult human beings,

00:12:19.207 --> 00:12:23.447
it can threaten the safety in the relationship for the person that all they

00:12:23.447 --> 00:12:27.447
know for love is control or manipulation or coercion.

00:12:27.647 --> 00:12:30.667
If that's the case, if you find yourself in any of these sides,

00:12:30.727 --> 00:12:33.307
you're that pathologically kind person or you're the person that's starting

00:12:33.307 --> 00:12:35.807
to wake up to maybe more of your your own emotional immaturity,

00:12:36.107 --> 00:12:37.047
you're in the right spot.

00:12:37.307 --> 00:12:42.047
So let's get to these stories. So what I like to do in these Death by a Thousand

00:12:42.047 --> 00:12:44.287
Cuts episodes is I will read these stories.

00:12:44.407 --> 00:12:48.287
The stories have come from people that have emailed in since the last Death

00:12:48.287 --> 00:12:51.127
by a Thousand Cuts story, or people are listening to the back catalog.

00:12:51.507 --> 00:12:55.847
And I get a lot of these emails. And then I also put a request out to the women's

00:12:55.847 --> 00:12:59.227
Facebook group. So these are all based on real life experiences.

00:12:59.387 --> 00:13:01.707
And then I've gone in and asked for permission.

00:13:01.987 --> 00:13:05.687
So at times, I think people maybe have changed I've changed up a few of the

00:13:05.687 --> 00:13:10.107
details just to protect confidentiality, but they are based off of real stories.

00:13:10.227 --> 00:13:14.287
And I think here's our first quick emotional immaturity check that as you're

00:13:14.287 --> 00:13:17.507
hearing these, if your first thought or reaction is, I'm not buying it.

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.840
It's kind of fascinating because you don't know these people or their experiences.

00:13:22.040 --> 00:13:25.620
And as somebody that sits and gets to do the couples therapy with people that

00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:28.940
are in emotionally immature relationships or people with narcissistic traits

00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:32.060
and tendencies, the stories are pretty, pretty wild.

00:13:32.140 --> 00:13:37.680
The things that people do to control or coerce or manipulate another human being.

00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:40.920
So again, quick check. If you're saying, oh, I don't know if I buy it.

00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.080
That is a you thing in a loving way from a differentiated standpoint.

00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:49.680
So let's, let's get to the stories. Oh, the first person said he used to make

00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:52.760
sweeping generalizations about groups of people.

00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:57.300
When I disagreed, he said I was being argumentative for the sake of it.

00:13:57.400 --> 00:14:01.080
Because remember, to the narcissist or the extremely emotionally mature,

00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:02.800
you can't have a different opinion.

00:14:02.880 --> 00:14:05.900
Because if you do, then you think that theirs is wrong.

00:14:05.900 --> 00:14:09.600
Even if that's not what you're saying or conveying in this scenario,

00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.900
he's already observed you disagreeing. And then he has quickly made the judgment

00:14:13.900 --> 00:14:17.060
that therefore you think that you are better than him. All or nothing,

00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:17.980
black or white thinking.

00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:22.080
Honestly, it's like everything is a game that there must be a winner and there

00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:27.060
must be a loser, but we're not playing the, I guess it would be the real live

00:14:27.060 --> 00:14:32.060
game of life where it's almost like we're playing a board game because there has to be that winner.

00:14:32.140 --> 00:14:36.180
There has to be somebody in this one-up position and what that does in the relationship

00:14:36.180 --> 00:14:38.820
is it eliminates curiosity. It eliminates connection.

00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:43.920
It's all competition. And one of the stranger things still is that he also most

00:14:43.920 --> 00:14:47.800
likely thinks that you will now be impressed that he can speak with such authority

00:14:47.800 --> 00:14:51.260
about something while trying to also destroy you emotionally,

00:14:51.460 --> 00:14:54.500
which then actually only makes him feel better.

00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:57.020
But now you're also supposed to say, my hero.

00:14:57.610 --> 00:15:00.390
And you're probably supposed to desire him and you'll get that wrong too.

00:15:00.790 --> 00:15:03.830
So anyway, back to this example, she said he would never value my opinion.

00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:07.290
And he used to use random people on the internet to back up his views.

00:15:07.450 --> 00:15:12.130
So then I don't know if I've just become more healthy egoed or more of an old

00:15:12.130 --> 00:15:16.030
man, but there are times where in a session, if this were to play out,

00:15:16.050 --> 00:15:17.990
and let's just say in this scenario, the guy says,

00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:21.690
but if his wife says something about parenting, which would make him more accountable,

00:15:21.810 --> 00:15:26.870
let's say that she says, and I know that I've asked for help in bathing the kids now for years,

00:15:27.150 --> 00:15:31.410
to them, which he might say something like, well, you know what Dr.

00:15:31.950 --> 00:15:34.790
Closeye says about men who bend over in cramped circumstances.

00:15:35.730 --> 00:15:39.950
And this one is based on a true story, honestly, to which then she would say,

00:15:40.090 --> 00:15:42.670
okay, I looked that up. I can't find where actually Dr.

00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:46.110
Closeye says that, to which then he would say, look, I read it.

00:15:46.150 --> 00:15:48.730
Are you now telling me that my memory is bad? Because let's be serious.

00:15:48.810 --> 00:15:49.730
Who here has the bad memory?

00:15:50.050 --> 00:15:53.850
Who forgot to actually wish me a happy birthday at midnight, the day of my birthday.

00:15:53.950 --> 00:15:58.470
And I had to be the one who said it first and who forgets to check and see if there's cherry Dr.

00:15:58.630 --> 00:16:02.030
Pepper zero in the fridge so that I have one when I get home. So talk about memory.

00:16:02.390 --> 00:16:08.290
Anyway, now we're arguing about something that is so far off topic and that still remains silly.

00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:13.490
And this all started with his made up pseudoscience about bending over in bathrooms

00:16:13.490 --> 00:16:17.930
so that he can get out of giving the kids a bath because he let slip at one

00:16:17.930 --> 00:16:20.190
point that his dad never had to,

00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:23.670
had to give him a bath. That was his mom's job.

00:16:23.970 --> 00:16:28.610
To which then the wife said flatly, you have zero relationship with your dad now.

00:16:28.770 --> 00:16:32.690
So is that the goal? To which of course he then proceeded to tell her how mean

00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:34.030
she was to say things like that.

00:16:34.150 --> 00:16:39.210
But we're still not talking about the increasingly growing elephant in the room

00:16:39.210 --> 00:16:42.310
is that he's not going to be watching those kids anytime soon,

00:16:42.430 --> 00:16:46.730
even though that conversation started with a classic, what can can I do to help?

00:16:47.070 --> 00:16:52.410
Just not that or that or that. But look, I tried, I asked. And so now he can

00:16:52.410 --> 00:16:53.950
even throw that back at her.

00:16:54.490 --> 00:16:57.970
Another person said that he once told me that whenever he formed an opinion,

00:16:58.130 --> 00:17:01.410
it was because he had thoroughly researched the subject, considered both sides,

00:17:01.510 --> 00:17:02.850
and then made up his mind.

00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:06.830
Therefore, he saw no value in hearing my opinion because it wouldn't sway his decision.

00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:10.630
So she said, eventually, I just stopped voicing disagreements because it seemed futile.

00:17:10.630 --> 00:17:15.010
But then when I wouldn't voice disagreements or I wouldn't communicate at all,

00:17:15.130 --> 00:17:19.230
he then would criticize me for not having any opinions, labeling me as a sheep

00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:22.450
and implying that I wasn't intelligent enough to think for myself.

00:17:22.930 --> 00:17:25.730
And some of the responses to this post I thought were really interesting.

00:17:25.930 --> 00:17:28.390
Someone said, this message really strikes a chord with me.

00:17:28.630 --> 00:17:32.770
My spouse used the exact same reasoning to dismiss my views,

00:17:32.890 --> 00:17:36.130
claiming that his opinions are based on extensive research and expertise.

00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:41.150
And any attempt for me to offer a different perspective was then labeled as fighting.

00:17:41.450 --> 00:17:46.630
So in his eyes, fighting means simply having an opinion that doesn't align with his.

00:17:46.990 --> 00:17:50.270
She said he often makes negative and hurtful comments. And if I try to respond

00:17:50.270 --> 00:17:54.210
in any way to lessen the negativity, now I'm accused as being difficult.

00:17:55.242 --> 00:17:58.342
So she just has to go along with his opinion and agree with it,

00:17:58.382 --> 00:18:01.082
or else that means he's fighting. And then if she doesn't agree with it,

00:18:01.142 --> 00:18:02.202
then that means she has no opinion.

00:18:02.782 --> 00:18:06.122
Another person said, this all sounds so familiar. My partner would accuse me

00:18:06.122 --> 00:18:09.562
saying, you always have to fight, fight out of your own corner.

00:18:09.662 --> 00:18:11.802
As if standing up for myself was a negative trait.

00:18:12.282 --> 00:18:17.342
But she said, I do need to express my opinion when I disagree rather than staying silent.

00:18:17.742 --> 00:18:22.022
And let me talk about something that happens often in relationships where there's

00:18:22.022 --> 00:18:27.002
a lot of emotional immaturity in the mix. And it's this whole idea of black and white thinking.

00:18:27.382 --> 00:18:31.082
It's that mindset where everything is either one way or it's the other.

00:18:31.122 --> 00:18:33.122
It's right or it's wrong with no in between.

00:18:33.522 --> 00:18:35.962
If you are not with me, you are against me.

00:18:36.562 --> 00:18:40.242
And here's the deal with emotionally immature people that they often see the

00:18:40.242 --> 00:18:43.222
world in this very rigid way. If you come up with a different opinion in their

00:18:43.222 --> 00:18:44.482
mind, it's not just a different perspective.

00:18:44.822 --> 00:18:48.302
It's a direct challenge because that does come with this. if you don't agree

00:18:48.302 --> 00:18:50.102
with me, then you must believe I'm wrong.

00:18:50.602 --> 00:18:53.662
And that's why I talk so often about curiosity. There's no curiosity there.

00:18:53.762 --> 00:18:54.842
It just goes straight to defense.

00:18:55.222 --> 00:18:57.942
That is what that black or white thinking is, that all or nothing.

00:18:58.142 --> 00:19:00.242
But that's not how life works.

00:19:00.602 --> 00:19:04.562
Having a different opinion is not just okay. It's part of what makes us human.

00:19:04.602 --> 00:19:05.782
It's part of the whole human experience.

00:19:06.082 --> 00:19:10.042
And that's how we grow and learn and connect with each other on a much deeper level.

00:19:10.182 --> 00:19:12.262
Because imagine how dull conversations

00:19:12.262 --> 00:19:15.682
would be if we all just nodded and agreed on everything. thing.

00:19:16.022 --> 00:19:19.602
Although what is fascinating is sometimes when I've had a real live,

00:19:19.742 --> 00:19:23.382
incredibly emotionally immature, even bordering on narcissistic person in my office.

00:19:23.522 --> 00:19:27.262
And when they just say things that they feel are the right things to say,

00:19:27.382 --> 00:19:31.102
I can think of a situation right now where in bringing up this all or nothing

00:19:31.102 --> 00:19:34.322
black or white thinking, and in essence, trying to say to the narcissist,

00:19:34.562 --> 00:19:37.982
but are you just wanting her to agree with everything that you say?

00:19:38.042 --> 00:19:41.782
Are you not interested in what her opinion is? And he looked at me and said, not really.

00:19:42.422 --> 00:19:46.962
And then that was his interior landscape of his mind or what it felt like to be him.

00:19:47.742 --> 00:19:51.362
Because the truth is, and we're talking about from a place of maturity,

00:19:51.762 --> 00:19:55.962
it is totally possible for two opinions to exist in the same space without one

00:19:55.962 --> 00:19:58.642
canceling out the other. As a matter of fact, that is true.

00:19:59.213 --> 00:20:02.573
The way that human interaction is designed to work.

00:20:02.853 --> 00:20:07.813
It's about sharing and discussing and sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing. And that's okay.

00:20:08.053 --> 00:20:11.493
Doesn't mean that there's a winner and a loser. It means that we are engaging.

00:20:11.613 --> 00:20:15.413
If we're engaging, it means we're alive and we're kicking and we're just in

00:20:15.413 --> 00:20:18.973
a big part of this whole rich, complex human experience.

00:20:19.153 --> 00:20:22.653
That's a positive thing. So the next time you bump into that black or white

00:20:22.653 --> 00:20:25.493
thinking, that all or nothing thinking, remember that the world is actually

00:20:25.493 --> 00:20:28.933
full of a lot of colors and it's those colors with their shades and their nuances

00:20:28.933 --> 00:20:31.073
that really do make life interesting.

00:20:31.353 --> 00:20:35.753
So the acceptance that we are all having a different experience,

00:20:35.873 --> 00:20:39.693
but we can have shared experiences is absolutely a sign of maturity.

00:20:39.813 --> 00:20:42.233
And it can also be a game changer in a relationship.

00:20:42.733 --> 00:20:46.413
Another person just said, all this is just so, so familiar to me.

00:20:46.473 --> 00:20:49.493
If I disagreed with him, I was insulting his intelligence.

00:20:49.733 --> 00:20:53.573
And she said, this is just so messed up. And when I look back on it from a distance,

00:20:53.573 --> 00:20:55.733
And I wanted to address that quickly.

00:20:56.213 --> 00:21:00.153
It's the concept about rumination, because that's something that already in

00:21:00.153 --> 00:21:02.113
the sessions that I've done today before recording this podcast,

00:21:02.353 --> 00:21:06.773
there's been a theme of people ruminating on the past, beating themselves up for, why didn't I know?

00:21:06.853 --> 00:21:10.153
I can't believe I let this happen. But ruminating on the past interactions,

00:21:10.413 --> 00:21:13.753
especially those moments in hindsight that really feel messed up,

00:21:13.813 --> 00:21:16.993
it's absolutely normal to look back and think, man, what was going on there

00:21:16.993 --> 00:21:18.193
now that you're starting to

00:21:18.193 --> 00:21:21.053
see this bigger picture? But here's the thing that I can't convey enough.

00:21:21.213 --> 00:21:24.993
As much as we go over and over those moments in our minds, it doesn't really

00:21:24.993 --> 00:21:28.873
help us move forward. In fact, it's pretty unproductive because we keep thinking

00:21:28.873 --> 00:21:31.993
that if we can figure out the past, if we can make sense of the past,

00:21:32.093 --> 00:21:34.373
then we're going to be able to predict and make sense of the future.

00:21:34.553 --> 00:21:39.153
And we're still wanting certainty because that will make us feel more calm.

00:21:39.433 --> 00:21:42.913
But then that wanting certainty can often change.

00:21:43.657 --> 00:21:47.037
Cause us to try to control more. Because if I can control people,

00:21:47.177 --> 00:21:50.437
control my environment, control everything, then I've got my best chance at certainty.

00:21:50.777 --> 00:21:54.497
But I'm not living the human experience. And I'm certainly not letting other

00:21:54.497 --> 00:21:57.497
people find out who they are, becoming the best version of themselves.

00:21:57.877 --> 00:21:59.577
I think about that in a parenting standpoint.

00:22:00.117 --> 00:22:03.677
Hey, I think that this is what my kid needs to do. I think this is the subjects

00:22:03.677 --> 00:22:07.417
they need to study. I think this is the career path that I think that they would like.

00:22:07.677 --> 00:22:11.097
It's a lot of me in there. And if I'm doing it, even if I think it's a,

00:22:11.177 --> 00:22:12.757
yeah, but I want what's best for them.

00:22:13.157 --> 00:22:18.177
But really, I want to know that they are going to be okay, which makes sense

00:22:18.177 --> 00:22:19.997
as a parent, but that's a me thing.

00:22:20.137 --> 00:22:23.977
I'm taking them out of the decision of what they want to do with their life.

00:22:24.097 --> 00:22:27.597
And too often, the emotionally immature person then carries that into a marriage

00:22:27.597 --> 00:22:30.497
or relationship, and they're doing that same thing as well of,

00:22:30.637 --> 00:22:35.117
hey, this other person is basically here to do things for me, make me feel better.

00:22:35.217 --> 00:22:39.557
So then I'm going to control them because for some reason, I think that I know what's best for them.

00:22:40.037 --> 00:22:41.997
Which is a sign of emotional immaturity.

00:22:42.557 --> 00:22:45.837
Back to the rumination, because the things that happened, they happened.

00:22:45.937 --> 00:22:49.717
Those interactions happen. Back then, you did not know what you didn't know.

00:22:50.017 --> 00:22:53.157
So it's like you're trying to now solve a puzzle, but you don't have all those

00:22:53.157 --> 00:22:56.337
pieces. And now you're starting to find those missing pieces.

00:22:56.597 --> 00:22:58.537
And the picture is starting to become a little more clear.

00:22:58.917 --> 00:23:02.717
But the goal isn't to try to put that puzzle together. But it's just recognizing

00:23:02.717 --> 00:23:04.117
that I didn't have all the pieces.

00:23:04.297 --> 00:23:07.097
And I'm going to be more curious and open moving moving forward.

00:23:07.597 --> 00:23:12.017
Because it's huge to then recognize now to be aware of what happened,

00:23:12.097 --> 00:23:16.577
but then the growth occurs when you can accept that happened.

00:23:16.657 --> 00:23:17.957
And now what do I do moving forward?

00:23:18.097 --> 00:23:23.117
How can that teach me? How can that inform and instruct me on how I show up in life moving forward?

00:23:23.257 --> 00:23:26.637
So if you catch yourself ruminating or beating yourself up about the past,

00:23:26.777 --> 00:23:32.057
I would love to just encourage a pause, pause for a moment and just give yourself grace and compassion.

00:23:32.317 --> 00:23:35.877
And remember, you did not have the full picture back then, but now you're gathering

00:23:35.877 --> 00:23:39.317
more of those pieces, you're understanding more, and now you're making changes

00:23:39.317 --> 00:23:42.357
about what you can do moving forward. That really is what counts.

00:23:42.517 --> 00:23:46.457
So do me a favor, don't be too hard on yourself for not having all the answers from the get-go.

00:23:46.497 --> 00:23:49.357
This is part of that journey, recognizing where we've been, where we're heading.

00:23:49.457 --> 00:23:51.237
That is a huge step in the right direction.

00:23:51.697 --> 00:23:55.037
You're doing just fine. More death by a thousand cut stories.

00:23:55.237 --> 00:23:58.177
Another person said, last summer, I underwent surgery for melanoma.

00:23:58.497 --> 00:24:01.977
When I first found out about my diagnosis and shared the news with my partner,

00:24:02.117 --> 00:24:05.397
his immediate response was, okay, I'm actually the one who's probably going

00:24:05.397 --> 00:24:07.677
to get skin cancer with all the work that I do outside.

00:24:08.057 --> 00:24:11.517
And she said, it was astonishing how he managed to shift the focus immediately

00:24:11.517 --> 00:24:15.817
to himself right after I just told him about my own skin cancer diagnosis.

00:24:16.417 --> 00:24:20.277
She said, thankfully the surgery was successful and her follow-up appointments have been positive.

00:24:20.417 --> 00:24:24.257
But then just yesterday, the day before she posted this, she said,

00:24:24.277 --> 00:24:27.197
I excitedly told him that my latest appointment went well and everything looks

00:24:27.197 --> 00:24:29.257
good. And his reaction was, okay.

00:24:29.877 --> 00:24:33.417
I've had people talk about similar things where they've gotten a thumbs up when

00:24:33.417 --> 00:24:35.577
they found out that they're cancer-free from a text.

00:24:36.257 --> 00:24:40.017
She said it's become painfully clear that he shows no genuine concern for my

00:24:40.017 --> 00:24:41.857
health or my well-being despite.

00:24:42.595 --> 00:24:45.355
Almost three decades together she said i

00:24:45.355 --> 00:24:48.595
still find myself hoping for a different response but it's disheartening every

00:24:48.595 --> 00:24:51.415
time he shows me how little that i seem to matter to him

00:24:51.415 --> 00:24:54.315
this one is this one's really interesting she said

00:24:54.315 --> 00:24:58.035
every time we had a major argument he would end up driving himself to the er

00:24:58.035 --> 00:25:01.595
in the early hours of the morning she said i'd receive a text from him upon

00:25:01.595 --> 00:25:05.215
his arrival explaining that he went alone because he didn't want to wake me

00:25:05.215 --> 00:25:08.715
up but he was going through something his messages were vague only offering

00:25:08.715 --> 00:25:11.895
small bits of information information when I inquired about his condition.

00:25:12.075 --> 00:25:15.475
He mentioned things like the doctors being uncertain and ordering more x-rays

00:25:15.475 --> 00:25:19.315
and more blood tests, or even trying to consider should they admit him, should they not?

00:25:19.515 --> 00:25:22.295
And she's like, this would obviously leave me anxious and I would be on edge

00:25:22.295 --> 00:25:24.195
and unsure of the severity of his situation.

00:25:24.795 --> 00:25:27.695
Hours later though, he would text again and he would say, hey,

00:25:27.735 --> 00:25:31.715
can you come give me a ride home? Because in his words, the doctors were incompetent.

00:25:32.115 --> 00:25:35.795
So she said, I would go pick him up. Usually he'd start feeling better a few

00:25:35.795 --> 00:25:36.675
hours hours after we got home.

00:25:36.855 --> 00:25:40.055
Then he asked me, can you drive me back to the hospital? Cause I got to get

00:25:40.055 --> 00:25:44.095
my car knowing that I have back issues and that long drives are painful for me.

00:25:44.135 --> 00:25:47.755
He didn't seem to care or put or factor that into the equation.

00:25:47.995 --> 00:25:51.575
The round trip to the hospital was 30 to 40 minutes, meaning four trips in one

00:25:51.575 --> 00:25:53.595
day was physically taxing.

00:25:53.875 --> 00:25:58.295
She said those ER visits became a monthly occurrence for quite a while and they

00:25:58.295 --> 00:25:59.415
become less frequent now.

00:25:59.515 --> 00:26:02.895
Usually only happening when he's extremely upset with me, particularly if he

00:26:02.895 --> 00:26:06.075
doesn't get the reaction or even the argument that he's seeking.

00:26:07.117 --> 00:26:10.457
And she said, additionally, it became clear that these weren't true emergencies,

00:26:10.497 --> 00:26:13.777
as he would often feel significantly better just hours after being brought home

00:26:13.777 --> 00:26:16.217
to the point of now he could go out for the evening.

00:26:16.337 --> 00:26:22.017
So from ER to going out for the evening and those doggone incompetent doctors.

00:26:22.397 --> 00:26:27.477
So that is, what's the phrase? Something that really grinds my gears and it

00:26:27.477 --> 00:26:29.437
is perfectly illustrated by that last story.

00:26:29.437 --> 00:26:33.957
And it is this baffling and kind of insulting assumption that the narcissist

00:26:33.957 --> 00:26:38.037
or the incredibly emotionally immature person seems to make that we're all just

00:26:38.037 --> 00:26:41.497
a bunch of gullible folks who buy into any story, no matter how far-fetched it is.

00:26:41.757 --> 00:26:45.757
So then imagining that scenario, somebody dashes into the ER after a few hours

00:26:45.757 --> 00:26:49.917
of the medical team supposedly just all scratching their heads in utter bewilderment.

00:26:50.057 --> 00:26:52.337
This person just throws up their hands and says, oh, forget it.

00:26:52.377 --> 00:26:53.317
This isn't worth my time.

00:26:53.317 --> 00:26:56.377
Texts his wife come pick me up as then

00:26:56.377 --> 00:26:59.457
the modern hospital would then with all of its expertise protocols

00:26:59.457 --> 00:27:02.397
would then just let a patient dictate the pace and

00:27:02.397 --> 00:27:05.537
what to do and then just wander off because they're a little bit miffed because these

00:27:05.537 --> 00:27:08.877
doggone doctors don't know what they're doing and it goes back to that concept

00:27:08.877 --> 00:27:12.017
where the emotionally mature the narcissist truly believe that they are the

00:27:12.017 --> 00:27:16.297
special one whose mysterious condition has left the entire medical community

00:27:16.297 --> 00:27:20.637
in a daze it's like really so these doctors trained professionals who have seen

00:27:20.637 --> 00:27:25.197
it all would be completely stumped and just let somebody walk out in a huff that's kind of silly.

00:27:25.557 --> 00:27:29.637
And it's not just frustrating, but again, it's more of this insult to your intelligence.

00:27:30.037 --> 00:27:34.577
And I hear these stories often about what people say that they know about therapy

00:27:34.577 --> 00:27:35.777
that have not been to therapy.

00:27:36.097 --> 00:27:41.677
I've been a practicing therapist for 17, 18 years every day, not weekends.

00:27:42.237 --> 00:27:44.737
I'm saying that because now I can see the emotionally mature.

00:27:44.837 --> 00:27:48.977
Oh, really? Every day? Seven days a week? Is that what you're trying to say? Which is not the point.

00:27:49.698 --> 00:27:53.638
But when somebody has not been to therapy, but they want to explain to me what

00:27:53.638 --> 00:27:56.718
they think therapy is like, then that is adorable.

00:27:57.058 --> 00:28:00.338
Or I hear people say, that therapist or that counselor, they've got their own

00:28:00.338 --> 00:28:04.838
agenda, says the person who has no idea what my practice is about or hasn't

00:28:04.838 --> 00:28:06.458
even been to therapy or especially to see me.

00:28:07.098 --> 00:28:11.278
Because that is how special that person is, that they know more about the attorney,

00:28:11.378 --> 00:28:15.598
they know more about the doctor, they know more about the therapist than even the therapist does.

00:28:15.698 --> 00:28:20.158
And I don't even have to go to therapy to know that. So that is that sign of emotional immaturity.

00:28:20.378 --> 00:28:23.958
But it's interesting, though, because it just shows you the links that people

00:28:23.958 --> 00:28:29.038
go to, and a lot of it's subconscious, to then put themselves in the center of every narrative.

00:28:29.178 --> 00:28:33.258
I know, I know, and you don't understand, and they got an agenda,

00:28:33.498 --> 00:28:34.938
and you can't go see this one.

00:28:34.938 --> 00:28:37.858
I mentioned this on a podcast a week or so ago on the virtual couch,

00:28:37.958 --> 00:28:43.738
but it's this concept around having now seen close to 1,500 couples where a new couples therapist,

00:28:43.858 --> 00:28:47.858
because I was this at one point, will then sometimes question maybe one of my

00:28:47.858 --> 00:28:50.998
clients if they're interacting with them as an individual saying,

00:28:51.158 --> 00:28:55.398
well, wait, he can't see the couple and then still talk to you guys individually.

00:28:55.398 --> 00:28:57.758
Usually that graduate school said you can't do that.

00:28:57.938 --> 00:29:00.798
But then there's enough of us couples therapists that have been doing this for

00:29:00.798 --> 00:29:05.078
a long time that recognize, okay, that's what I know how to do.

00:29:05.118 --> 00:29:06.438
And I'm very comfortable in doing that.

00:29:06.718 --> 00:29:09.838
And so then if somebody is trying to tell me you can't do that,

00:29:09.958 --> 00:29:12.718
it might be a good idea to start with some curiosity and ask,

00:29:12.778 --> 00:29:13.798
what's that experience like?

00:29:13.978 --> 00:29:17.698
Do you ever find that that's difficult or what is difficult about it?

00:29:17.758 --> 00:29:21.078
Or at what point and how many couples and how many years doing this,

00:29:21.118 --> 00:29:25.498
did you finally feel like that was something thing that you could do and still

00:29:25.498 --> 00:29:30.718
maintain the integrity of the therapeutic alliance versus the,

00:29:30.798 --> 00:29:32.498
well, I don't think that they should be able to do that.

00:29:33.071 --> 00:29:36.791
Again, putting yourself at the center of every narrative and then expecting

00:29:36.791 --> 00:29:38.751
somebody else to follow along without question.

00:29:38.991 --> 00:29:42.711
We're moving to Arizona. I had someone maybe a couple of weeks ago spend quite

00:29:42.711 --> 00:29:47.171
a bit of time reminding me how hot it is in Arizona, as if I had never thought about that.

00:29:47.291 --> 00:29:49.151
And I thought it was really interesting because they just said,

00:29:49.211 --> 00:29:51.231
okay, as long as you know. So I do.

00:29:51.511 --> 00:29:56.191
And they continued on that narrative as if then now I was supposed to,

00:29:56.251 --> 00:29:59.011
I think during that session, call off the entire move.

00:29:59.011 --> 00:30:02.371
And try to purchase my house back and sell the house that we had bought,

00:30:02.511 --> 00:30:06.091
let the entire family know that's moved because this person's like,

00:30:06.171 --> 00:30:08.051
okay, I'm just saying it's pretty hot.

00:30:08.371 --> 00:30:11.071
So that person had inserted themselves in the center of that narrative.

00:30:11.171 --> 00:30:12.591
And it's adorable. It really is.

00:30:13.111 --> 00:30:16.491
Here's another story. Recently, we found out that my husband's mother had to

00:30:16.491 --> 00:30:19.851
go to the hospital due to some flu-like symptoms, especially concerning because

00:30:19.851 --> 00:30:21.051
of her history with stroke.

00:30:21.191 --> 00:30:24.871
And I naturally started asking more questions to try to understand the situation

00:30:24.871 --> 00:30:26.671
better. Hey, what was was wrong with your mom?

00:30:26.931 --> 00:30:30.091
But my husband just went and sat on the couch and started playing on his phone,

00:30:30.151 --> 00:30:31.211
ignoring my attempts to engage.

00:30:31.451 --> 00:30:34.711
I sat next to him in silence, trying to just think of helpful suggestions,

00:30:34.771 --> 00:30:38.871
such as ways to maybe we could get more information since apparently his dad

00:30:38.871 --> 00:30:39.771
didn't have any updates.

00:30:40.111 --> 00:30:42.311
And she said, I suggested a couple of things.

00:30:42.891 --> 00:30:46.171
The next day though, he criticized me for being cold and not offering him a

00:30:46.171 --> 00:30:50.291
hug despite my efforts to support him. And she said, feel free to use this story on your podcast.

00:30:50.851 --> 00:30:53.211
Also, there was an incident that somebody shared last Last year,

00:30:53.251 --> 00:30:56.351
when we were walking in the neighborhood with a friend, a car passed by,

00:30:56.511 --> 00:30:59.051
and my husband claimed that somebody in the car threw a rock at him,

00:30:59.111 --> 00:31:02.831
so he reacted by yelling at the vehicle, but the car didn't even stop or react

00:31:02.831 --> 00:31:04.931
in any noticeable way as it drove by.

00:31:05.751 --> 00:31:09.111
She said, my friend and I were puzzled because we hadn't seen anybody throw

00:31:09.111 --> 00:31:12.231
anything, and when I asked my husband to clarify, his story started to fall

00:31:12.231 --> 00:31:14.191
apart. I wasn't really sure if it was actually a rock.

00:31:14.511 --> 00:31:17.911
And she said, I suggested that maybe a car just kicked up a pebble or something,

00:31:18.011 --> 00:31:22.531
but he insisted, no, that was impossible according to his understanding of the laws of physics.

00:31:23.071 --> 00:31:26.891
However, she then found herself literally looking up the laws of physics and

00:31:26.891 --> 00:31:30.211
found that it was possible that the car tire could kick up a rock.

00:31:30.751 --> 00:31:34.711
But despite this, then her questioning turned her into the enemy in his eyes.

00:31:34.891 --> 00:31:38.631
And he ended up more upset with her than the supposed rock throwing incident,

00:31:38.811 --> 00:31:42.191
which nobody else witnessed in the car showed no signs of aggression or acknowledgement.

00:31:42.191 --> 00:31:46.131
And she said this issue years later still comes up and causes tension between

00:31:46.131 --> 00:31:50.231
us, that he never supported her during the time where those hooligans chucked.

00:31:50.231 --> 00:31:53.371
Those giant boulders from the passing by car.

00:31:54.071 --> 00:31:57.451
Another person said during the love bombing phase, he constantly complimented

00:31:57.451 --> 00:31:59.731
my appearance, never missing a chance to comment on my beauty.

00:32:00.111 --> 00:32:03.571
However, that eventually ceased. And she said sometimes seeking reassurance,

00:32:03.691 --> 00:32:06.831
I would ask, do you still think I'm pretty or are you still attracted to me?

00:32:06.831 --> 00:32:10.911
And rather than offering reassurance, his responses were eye rolls or dismissive

00:32:10.911 --> 00:32:14.111
comments like, well, if you don't know, then I think that's on you.

00:32:15.049 --> 00:32:18.849
And she said, for me, the most significant pain points have been the unfulfilled

00:32:18.849 --> 00:32:21.969
promises that he's left all responsibilities and burdens to me,

00:32:22.029 --> 00:32:25.689
offering no assistance with the kids, household chores, financial support.

00:32:26.069 --> 00:32:28.729
She said, it's watching me struggle without offering any help.

00:32:28.809 --> 00:32:31.529
Then somebody else said, oh my gosh, I experienced that too.

00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:35.869
And then he would also say, you would be so much more attractive if you'd fill

00:32:35.869 --> 00:32:38.229
in the blank, which he said, usually lose weight.

00:32:38.589 --> 00:32:41.769
Another person responded and said, totally agree with leaving all the burdens

00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:45.029
and responsibility of the house. I couldn't ask him to help because he didn't

00:32:45.029 --> 00:32:46.829
like authority, so he would fight against it.

00:32:46.869 --> 00:32:50.389
I couldn't expect him to do anything without being asked because how was he

00:32:50.389 --> 00:32:52.049
supposed to know that things needed to be done?

00:32:52.449 --> 00:32:56.249
But then if I did it myself, then I was being passive-aggressive by doing it around him.

00:32:56.749 --> 00:33:00.709
So I ended up doing a lot of the housework when he wasn't around so he wouldn't

00:33:00.709 --> 00:33:05.949
feel bad that he was sitting on the sofa while he did it, which then prompted

00:33:05.949 --> 00:33:09.569
him to say I didn't do anything because he never saw it.

00:33:10.249 --> 00:33:13.269
Another person said, absolutely, or making me feel guilty for doing housework

00:33:13.269 --> 00:33:18.229
instead of sitting around like him. He would get mad because then I'm not spending time with him.

00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:22.869
If I'm upset, the house is a mess, then that's on me because he's not expecting

00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:25.089
it. So darned if you do, darned if you don't.

00:33:25.449 --> 00:33:28.389
Another person, yes, in all capital letters. And if he ever had anything to

00:33:28.389 --> 00:33:32.109
do, mow the lawn, for example, he complained that he was never home and he just

00:33:32.109 --> 00:33:33.469
wanted to relax and be with the kids.

00:33:33.529 --> 00:33:37.989
And it wasn't fair of me to ask him to spend time away from them on his one day off.

00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:41.729
Sympathy grab. I just, I put a little note in there when I was reading through

00:33:41.729 --> 00:33:43.609
these, moms never have the day off.

00:33:44.069 --> 00:33:47.729
And then someone responded and said, were we married to the same man?

00:33:48.089 --> 00:33:51.809
And my first thought was, this week on the Jerry Springer Show?

00:33:52.289 --> 00:33:55.749
Yes, in fact, they were. And let's talk about something that's both,

00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:59.409
it's sad and honestly, it's all too common in relationships where,

00:33:59.449 --> 00:34:00.709
again, there's emotional immaturity

00:34:00.709 --> 00:34:04.329
or where there are more of these narcissistic traits and tendencies.

00:34:04.329 --> 00:34:08.969
And it's about these moments then when somebody shares something deeply,

00:34:09.149 --> 00:34:11.949
it can be really personal, something that makes you feel vulnerable,

00:34:12.169 --> 00:34:15.689
like when you're worried your partner might not find you attractive anymore.

00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:19.849
And I am the very first person to say that that sounded narcissistic.

00:34:19.949 --> 00:34:25.129
I am one who very much believes that self-love is crucial and that we need to

00:34:25.129 --> 00:34:26.689
find that acceptance and love within ourselves.

00:34:26.689 --> 00:34:30.949
And as somebody that's been on that journey of becoming moving toward more emotional

00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:34.989
maturity from emotional immaturity, it we definitely don't know what we don't

00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:38.269
know when you still don't feel comfortable in your own skin.

00:34:38.309 --> 00:34:42.769
And when you get closer to that place, then it is easier for somebody to.

00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:47.619
Tell you what they think you're supposed to do. And you can sit with that discomfort,

00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:50.579
be a little more curious, because ultimately, it's a you thing in a good way.

00:34:51.139 --> 00:34:55.819
But there are times if we're being real, where we are looking for that little

00:34:55.819 --> 00:34:57.079
bit of reassurance from our partner.

00:34:57.459 --> 00:35:00.199
You know, it is like we're sending out these emotional bids asking,

00:35:00.339 --> 00:35:03.579
do you see me? Do you love me? Do you have my back? Can I count on you?

00:35:03.739 --> 00:35:08.019
And it's in those moments, then that's where it feels like you are handing somebody your heart.

00:35:08.359 --> 00:35:13.339
But what happens then when instead of cherishing it or being grateful for that

00:35:13.339 --> 00:35:16.959
gift of somebody sharing their vulnerability or feelings or emotions with you,

00:35:17.019 --> 00:35:20.879
if they take it and then they scrunch it up and they throw it on the ground and they stomp on it,

00:35:20.979 --> 00:35:25.479
you know, when they use your vulnerability against you to control or manipulate, it's heartbreaking.

00:35:25.819 --> 00:35:29.319
And over time, this leads to a place where you just stop sharing your feelings

00:35:29.319 --> 00:35:35.299
with your spouse or the person that is in this emotionally manipulative or coercive situation.

00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:39.539
Why? Because there's a good chance those feelings won't be validated or even

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:43.459
acknowledged. You might be nothing or they'll be weaponized against you.

00:35:43.899 --> 00:35:48.279
And then those insecurities that you opened up about that you finally felt like

00:35:48.279 --> 00:35:52.499
I can share with somebody when you're seeking reassurance from the one person

00:35:52.499 --> 00:35:53.539
who's supposed to have your back.

00:35:53.959 --> 00:35:59.859
When then that person then throws this vulnerability back in your face as a

00:35:59.859 --> 00:36:04.099
tool of manipulation or control. And that's a tough spot to be in.

00:36:04.832 --> 00:36:07.532
Because you start to realize that the very things that you shared in confidence,

00:36:07.712 --> 00:36:10.912
hoping for support, can and will be used against you.

00:36:10.992 --> 00:36:15.772
And it becomes this reminder of the importance of feeling emotionally safe in relationships.

00:36:16.012 --> 00:36:19.532
Because without it, we find ourselves holding back. We're protecting our hearts

00:36:19.532 --> 00:36:24.112
from the very person who should be helping us guard it. Let me get back to the stories.

00:36:24.632 --> 00:36:28.232
My daughter visited my house with a message from my ex about the dog,

00:36:28.412 --> 00:36:31.752
mentioning how much he missed the dog. At first glance, it might have seemed

00:36:31.752 --> 00:36:35.532
like a trivial comment, but she said, I'm thankful for the support of others

00:36:35.532 --> 00:36:38.232
in the group who understood the impact that it had on her.

00:36:38.652 --> 00:36:41.512
She said, it felt like a subtle jab at me, implying I miss the dog,

00:36:41.532 --> 00:36:44.552
but not you, and portrayed him as the victim to my daughter,

00:36:44.632 --> 00:36:46.692
suggesting, poor me, your mom took the dog away.

00:36:46.952 --> 00:36:50.612
She said this situation stirred up feelings of guilt towards him and frustration

00:36:50.612 --> 00:36:52.792
and sadness for her daughter.

00:36:53.232 --> 00:36:55.832
She said her daughter then was unfairly placed in the middle.

00:36:55.832 --> 00:36:58.992
And she said it also felt like an intrusion into the new space that she's been

00:36:58.992 --> 00:37:01.232
trying to create for herself to move on and heal.

00:37:01.852 --> 00:37:05.552
Let me just address that for a second, too. I think what is really difficult

00:37:05.552 --> 00:37:10.092
is people get into these situations of where there is going to be a divorce

00:37:10.092 --> 00:37:12.292
and they say, OK, we just want to do what's best for the kids.

00:37:12.412 --> 00:37:17.192
And I will say then I think so often in that moment that people do mean it feels

00:37:17.192 --> 00:37:18.672
like the right thing to say in that moment.

00:37:18.752 --> 00:37:23.352
And that is what they want to do. But then you get out of that moment and now

00:37:23.352 --> 00:37:27.952
the first time that maybe one of the kids is complaining about having to go

00:37:27.952 --> 00:37:31.072
between houses and then the more emotionally immature person says,

00:37:31.192 --> 00:37:33.012
well, I wish it wasn't happening either.

00:37:33.272 --> 00:37:35.552
That's your dad wanted the divorce.

00:37:36.072 --> 00:37:39.692
And I think that can be a really difficult thing to put the kid in the middle.

00:37:39.972 --> 00:37:42.092
And when people will say, well, I'm just being honest.

00:37:42.532 --> 00:37:48.072
Okay. OK, but that's a you issue of being able to sit with that discomfort of

00:37:48.072 --> 00:37:50.672
wanting to express your frustration and anger.

00:37:50.992 --> 00:37:54.832
Do that to a therapist or to maybe an adult friend.

00:37:54.872 --> 00:37:59.052
But to your kid, what a chance for you to say, man, I know that that sounds

00:37:59.052 --> 00:38:00.792
hard, but I really appreciate the way you're showing up.

00:38:01.052 --> 00:38:05.872
And hey, what can we do? What can we do today? Because I'm just grateful to have this time with you.

00:38:06.570 --> 00:38:09.950
That is a big difference than, yeah, I know I hate it too, champ.

00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:13.330
I wish we didn't have to do this. But, you know, what are we supposed to do?

00:38:13.390 --> 00:38:14.730
Your mom doesn't want me back in the house.

00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:18.170
Because that kid, that is putting that burden over on the kid.

00:38:18.470 --> 00:38:24.070
This is a you thing and an opportunity for you to learn how to recognize your

00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:28.110
own frustration and then show up for your kid and show them that,

00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:30.990
hey, we care about you and we love you regardless.

00:38:31.850 --> 00:38:35.470
Small tangent there. All right, back to the stories. Another person said.

00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:05.550
When she couldn't and felt like

00:39:05.550 --> 00:39:09.110
she wanted to cry during the ride home was met with his cold derision.

00:39:09.290 --> 00:39:13.050
He would calmly demean me, call me ridiculous, pathetic, childish,

00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:15.470
and he would threaten divorce for my reactions.

00:39:16.270 --> 00:39:19.810
And then his calm and collected demeanor made it difficult for me to recognize

00:39:19.810 --> 00:39:23.930
the abuse for what it was, that she's allowed to have her feelings.

00:39:24.130 --> 00:39:29.010
And I appreciate when she's even saying that that concept of if his family is

00:39:29.010 --> 00:39:34.910
argumentative, and I think in his his position, there's a chance for him to defend her.

00:39:35.310 --> 00:39:36.670
Because if that is not who she

00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:40.770
is by nature, then who is he to then demand that or expect that of her?

00:39:41.330 --> 00:39:45.810
And this stuff tugs at my heartstrings, sounding dramatic, because it brings

00:39:45.810 --> 00:39:49.250
us back to that fundamental reason why we often feel like we can't freely express our emotions.

00:39:49.410 --> 00:39:52.270
Again, our emotions are there for a very crucial reason.

00:39:52.510 --> 00:39:56.010
They help us understand ourselves better. Because from a young age,

00:39:56.170 --> 00:39:59.330
even the most well-intentioned parents aim to teach their kids the difference

00:39:59.330 --> 00:40:03.770
between right and wrong, but we're kids and we're just being kids and exploring

00:40:03.770 --> 00:40:07.450
the world in our very unique, messy, loud ways.

00:40:08.230 --> 00:40:11.970
And if the kid is frequently met with corrections and critiques,

00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:16.570
which again, even I know I did a lot of that is when my kids were little,

00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:19.150
because we do, we really want to protect their kids.

00:40:19.210 --> 00:40:21.870
We want to try to teach them these meaningful lessons.

00:40:21.950 --> 00:40:26.010
But so often we do that at the expense of being able to just be there for them,

00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:30.070
provide Provide that secure attachment and not this feeling that they are not

00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:35.030
doing it right when it is life or that they there's this conditional love that's

00:40:35.030 --> 00:40:37.130
attached that if they don't do it the way that I want them to,

00:40:37.230 --> 00:40:40.550
then I will not be happy or I will not give them validation.

00:40:41.616 --> 00:40:46.096
So, we so often meet our kids with the, you know, hey, we don't say that,

00:40:46.096 --> 00:40:49.496
or why did you do that, or use a softer voice, or speak up, I can't hear you,

00:40:49.556 --> 00:40:52.016
and it doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as you do it,

00:40:52.016 --> 00:40:54.156
except for why did you do it that way, and what were you thinking,

00:40:54.276 --> 00:40:55.016
and you should have known better.

00:40:55.676 --> 00:40:59.896
So, over time, that constant feedback starts to lead a kid to believe that simply

00:40:59.896 --> 00:41:04.376
being themselves is not acceptable, and their emotions, if they express them,

00:41:04.456 --> 00:41:08.076
apparently are wrong. So they start to internalize those emotions.

00:41:08.216 --> 00:41:11.916
They become more reactive, feeling like they need somebody else to validate

00:41:11.916 --> 00:41:14.516
their actions or tell them that it's okay to feel a certain way.

00:41:14.896 --> 00:41:19.496
And that's a tough cycle where just being yourself starts to feel like somehow it's wrong.

00:41:19.496 --> 00:41:23.416
And this is why it's so important for us to understand and validate our emotions,

00:41:23.676 --> 00:41:27.336
recognize them as a natural and very essential part of who we are,

00:41:27.396 --> 00:41:31.416
because they ultimately guide us through this, the journey of life,

00:41:31.496 --> 00:41:34.516
of self-discovery, of growth. Okay, back to the stories.

00:41:34.696 --> 00:41:37.256
Another woman said there are so many instances that come to mind.

00:41:37.276 --> 00:41:41.116
For example, during disagreements, my husband often threatens to skip upcoming social events.

00:41:41.476 --> 00:41:44.896
This has been his tactic for years, but he recently confessed that he does this

00:41:44.896 --> 00:41:49.776
to punish me, hoping I'll feel the absence of his, and she put in quotation marks, support.

00:41:50.496 --> 00:41:53.596
Additionally, he's begun neglecting his duties as a parent during these times,

00:41:53.796 --> 00:41:57.596
refusing to take our younger kids to sports practices, birthday parties,

00:41:57.616 --> 00:42:01.476
and other activities that her child was looking forward forward to to punish me.

00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.679
She said, though, however, one of the most distressing incidents occurred during

00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:10.099
a family camping trip about six hours from home amid a minor disagreement where

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:13.879
he was trying to control me and I resisted. He threatened to leave us at the

00:42:13.879 --> 00:42:16.839
beach near our campground and he was going to hitchhike home.

00:42:17.319 --> 00:42:21.119
She said this was particularly alarming given our heightened concerns about

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.859
COVID at the time, which had led him to impose strict public safety measures

00:42:24.859 --> 00:42:26.679
on our family, including wiping down our groceries.

00:42:26.979 --> 00:42:31.779
So moreover, he was aware of these crucial details about our new camper that

00:42:31.779 --> 00:42:34.179
I wasn't making his threat even more concerning.

00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:37.499
And he made this threat in front of our then toddler. She said,

00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:39.819
I chose not to intervene, pretending to leave.

00:42:39.879 --> 00:42:43.979
He then actually ended up hiding behind a bush near the truck.

00:42:44.339 --> 00:42:47.919
She said a couple hours later, as her son and her were returning to the truck,

00:42:47.959 --> 00:42:53.319
he emerged and he was so frustrated that I hadn't sought him out or attempted to stop him on the road.

00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:59.099
Next, someone said, my husband openly acknowledges his hypochondria and frequently

00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:02.099
experiences both genuine and explicable illnesses.

00:43:02.659 --> 00:43:05.959
This often leads him to withdraw from responsibilities at our shared workplace

00:43:05.959 --> 00:43:09.559
and at home, opting to rest in the afternoon or retire early,

00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.279
even before our son's bedtime.

00:43:11.779 --> 00:43:15.159
Despite this, he prioritizes his workouts as part of his self-care routine.

00:43:15.619 --> 00:43:19.139
However, when I don't feel well, he still expects me to prepare meals for the

00:43:19.139 --> 00:43:20.199
family, handle the cleanup.

00:43:20.659 --> 00:43:22.779
She said, I've recently set boundaries around this behavior,

00:43:22.819 --> 00:43:25.199
but he attempts to make me feel so guilty for doing so.

00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:28.579
She said, he also makes me feel guilty if I want to prepare prepare a meal for

00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:31.219
friends who are either seriously ill or have just had a baby,

00:43:31.319 --> 00:43:34.759
arguing that it's not in our budget, even though we most definitely can afford

00:43:34.759 --> 00:43:37.979
it, or that it detracts from family time.

00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.179
I think this is an interesting one, as simple as that sounds.

00:43:41.739 --> 00:43:46.179
But is it because we can't afford it, or is it because it detracts from family time?

00:43:46.439 --> 00:43:50.279
And I often feel like those are those subtle instances where the emotionally

00:43:50.279 --> 00:43:53.619
immature is just trying to find the right button to push that will will get

00:43:53.619 --> 00:43:58.559
the person to react so that then he can jump back into that position of control.

00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:03.620
Another person said that her husband's an enthusiastic garage sale shopper and

00:44:03.620 --> 00:44:06.860
has found many valuable items for her home and family, which we might not have

00:44:06.860 --> 00:44:09.280
been able to afford otherwise. So she's starting out with a positive.

00:44:09.560 --> 00:44:12.200
She says, I'm grateful for his efforts and I try to show my appreciation.

00:44:12.620 --> 00:44:15.600
But if I express a desire for something new, like a sweater,

00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:18.380
she said, considering I literally haven't bought one in over a decade,

00:44:18.600 --> 00:44:22.380
he accuses me of being ungrateful for the clothes that he has found for me,

00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.540
suggesting that he's already provided everything that I could possibly need.

00:44:25.900 --> 00:44:27.820
There's no curiosity or questions there. there.

00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:30.960
Another person said, after the holidays, my husband approached me expressing

00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:32.660
concerns about our budget being tight.

00:44:32.900 --> 00:44:36.700
He requested that I jot down every anticipated expense for the upcoming month.

00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:40.540
When I sought clarification, asking if this included the basic household items

00:44:40.540 --> 00:44:45.100
like soap, which she said fell under her purview, and no, I did not have to look that up.

00:44:45.160 --> 00:44:48.280
Okay, yes, maybe I did, and that does mean under her scope of influence.

00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:52.620
Then he confirmed that, yeah, that did. And she said, I found this request unreasonable

00:44:52.620 --> 00:44:57.540
given our financial situation isn't dire. We've had numerous discussions confirming this.

00:44:58.020 --> 00:45:01.680
So she said, I suggested that his request seemed more rooted in trust issues

00:45:01.680 --> 00:45:04.280
and then asked him to elaborate, tell me more.

00:45:04.600 --> 00:45:07.860
He then quickly changed his stance, claiming he thought that I was referring

00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:11.960
to, oh, it's a fancy soap, something that she says we've actually never purchased

00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.060
in the 13 years that we've been together.

00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:18.140
The very next day, he dedicated the morning and early afternoon to organizing

00:45:18.140 --> 00:45:21.720
a very expensive vacation with his extended family.

00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:26.640
He not only researched and booked an Airbnb, BNB, but also insisted on a $2,500

00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:31.220
deposit, a larger sum than any other family member, including his financially

00:45:31.220 --> 00:45:32.980
stable parents, what they had committed to.

00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:37.120
So this move, she said, was perplexing, especially following our recent conversation

00:45:37.120 --> 00:45:39.260
about budgeting down to the cost of soap.

00:45:39.600 --> 00:45:43.280
When I questioned the discrepancy between his budgeting concerns and his eagerness

00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.540
to book an expensive vacation, then he staunchly defended his actions.

00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:50.700
She said this situation felt more like emotional whiplash than the gradual erosion

00:45:50.700 --> 00:45:54.440
of death by a thousand cuts, but it's all part of the same troubling pattern,

00:45:54.620 --> 00:45:56.620
feel free to share the story as you see fit.

00:45:57.586 --> 00:46:00.666
Another person said, my husband often complained about me going to bed earlier

00:46:00.666 --> 00:46:02.526
than him feeling left alone at night.

00:46:02.906 --> 00:46:07.826
Last summer, she said I was dealing with severe nerve pain that made it impossible for me to sleep.

00:46:08.126 --> 00:46:11.626
I would leave the bedroom to sit with my heat pack for some relief.

00:46:12.046 --> 00:46:16.326
One night, and this one gets really interesting. She said one night because

00:46:16.326 --> 00:46:20.506
she left the bedroom and then came out to where he was, he mentioned that my

00:46:20.506 --> 00:46:24.106
being there disrupted his time spent looking at porn.

00:46:24.826 --> 00:46:27.986
She said he moved out at the end of that summer, coincidentally the day before

00:46:27.986 --> 00:46:31.066
I started a new job, leaving me emotionally distraught on my first day.

00:46:31.526 --> 00:46:34.646
Now she asked a very good follow-up. She said, by the way, Tony,

00:46:34.746 --> 00:46:38.946
I'd appreciate any insights you might have on how porn plays a role in emotionally

00:46:38.946 --> 00:46:39.706
immature relationships.

00:46:40.126 --> 00:46:43.486
She said, it seemed like my husband used it as a way to avoid working on our connection.

00:46:43.786 --> 00:46:45.306
He would then make me feel guilty

00:46:45.306 --> 00:46:49.346
for his porn usage, blaming it on my not fulfilling his sexual desires,

00:46:49.546 --> 00:47:06.026
which only made me feel unsafe about And additionally.

00:47:21.829 --> 00:47:25.869
Therapy model. We got the four pillars, or we're talking about acceptance and commitment therapy.

00:47:26.269 --> 00:47:29.489
But I also have a book called He's a Porn Addict, Now What?

00:47:29.569 --> 00:47:32.609
An Expert and a Former Addict to Answer Your Questions, which spent a couple

00:47:32.609 --> 00:47:35.409
of years on the sexual health and recovery bestseller list.

00:47:35.789 --> 00:47:40.429
And I have an online pornography recovery program called The Path Back,

00:47:40.589 --> 00:47:42.769
which is an amazing program.

00:47:42.989 --> 00:47:45.669
I feel very good about that, helped a lot of people with that.

00:47:46.009 --> 00:47:51.829
And so I do identify that porn Porn is a coping mechanism that typically people

00:47:51.829 --> 00:47:55.689
turn to when they feel, I always say, a lack of connection in one of five areas.

00:47:55.869 --> 00:47:58.069
When they don't feel connected in their marriage, when they don't feel connected

00:47:58.069 --> 00:48:02.009
as a parent, when they're struggling with their faith, their health, or their work.

00:48:02.289 --> 00:48:05.489
And when those things happen, they turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms.

00:48:05.589 --> 00:48:09.889
Things like porn or work, alcohol, drugs, their phone.

00:48:10.029 --> 00:48:14.129
It can be a lot of different things to cope. And so then when I'm trying to

00:48:14.129 --> 00:48:18.449
help people then become better in these areas, those five voided areas,

00:48:18.749 --> 00:48:22.089
then they turn to those unhealthy coping mechanisms less.

00:48:22.429 --> 00:48:24.889
So when you look at the concepts around emotional immaturity,

00:48:25.109 --> 00:48:26.609
there is a lot of impulsivity.

00:48:26.729 --> 00:48:29.329
Maybe somebody that just doesn't like to sit with any discomfort,

00:48:29.489 --> 00:48:31.969
they're going to get rid of that discomfort by turning to a coping mechanism.

00:48:31.969 --> 00:48:36.149
So, a lot of times, I think it's safe to say that in these situations,

00:48:36.449 --> 00:48:40.409
the guy is not feeling connected in his relationship or his marriage.

00:48:40.589 --> 00:48:44.749
And how does he get rid of his discomfort? He pushes it off to his wife because

00:48:44.749 --> 00:48:46.949
he's not willing to sit with that discomfort or take ownership.

00:48:47.169 --> 00:48:50.569
And then what's the way to get rid of his discomfort is then turning to porn,

00:48:50.709 --> 00:48:55.329
but then not wanting to be able to sit with the fact that he turns to pornography

00:48:55.329 --> 00:49:00.189
and objectifies women or the concept of where it can warp somebody's sexuality.

00:49:00.189 --> 00:49:02.189
Sexuality and I'm just given such a broad overview.

00:49:02.329 --> 00:49:05.249
And I think this would be a great topic for a podcast in the future.

00:49:05.569 --> 00:49:10.889
But then in that scenario, then here comes that confabulation that I have to

00:49:10.889 --> 00:49:14.409
change the narrative because it can't be that I'm wanting to look at porn.

00:49:14.529 --> 00:49:17.589
It's because you aren't being intimate enough.

00:49:17.729 --> 00:49:20.729
We're not having enough sex. So again, he can't sit with that,

00:49:20.809 --> 00:49:23.249
take ownership of that. It is uncomfortable.

00:49:23.489 --> 00:49:27.589
Turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism, then confabulate the narrative that I kid, this isn't who I am.

00:49:27.809 --> 00:49:32.069
It's because of you. So, I think there's a lot to be said there that we could

00:49:32.069 --> 00:49:33.289
talk about in a future episode.

00:49:33.749 --> 00:49:36.329
And another person then said on the same thread, she said, yeah,

00:49:36.389 --> 00:49:39.569
I've had a similar experience receiving complaints about not being intimate enough.

00:49:39.669 --> 00:49:43.229
But when I attempted to initiate intimacy, I was rejected because he had already,

00:49:43.349 --> 00:49:45.949
and she put in quotes, sorted himself out with porn earlier.

00:49:46.509 --> 00:49:49.789
She said he blamed me for this, of why he had to turn to porn,

00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:52.329
yet he never made any effort to initiate intimacy himself.

00:49:53.140 --> 00:49:55.540
Another person said that she had mentioned that it would be nice to set a romantic

00:49:55.540 --> 00:49:58.740
mood, perhaps light a candle, play some music, but even these small gestures

00:49:58.740 --> 00:50:01.320
were seen as too demanding, which is very interesting.

00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:04.820
She said, honestly, it felt like he preferred to be left alone with his alcohol,

00:50:05.060 --> 00:50:06.240
his porn, and his PlayStation.

00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:10.180
He couldn't admit, by the way, that has to be in a country song lyric,

00:50:10.300 --> 00:50:14.380
but he couldn't admit his, this preference possibly due to deep-seated shame.

00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:17.020
So instead he blamed me for his reliance on those things. Again,

00:50:17.140 --> 00:50:21.140
he doesn't want to take ownership of that, sit with that discomfort. So it has to be her fault.

00:50:21.980 --> 00:50:25.600
And there's a person in the group that I just, she does such an amazing job

00:50:25.600 --> 00:50:27.980
responding and it's just solid.

00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.360
Here's what she said about it. And I think she's so spot on.

00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:34.360
And again, we'll still cover this in an upcoming episode, but she said many

00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.440
individuals who frequently use porn started at a young age during a critical

00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.720
period when their brains were developing capacities for empathy,

00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.260
compassion, and understanding others.

00:50:41.680 --> 00:50:45.160
Instead, their minds were inundated with content that objectifies and reduces

00:50:45.160 --> 00:50:47.220
human interaction to mere consumption of bodies.

00:50:47.620 --> 00:50:51.240
This can significantly hinder their their emotional and psychological growth.

00:50:51.540 --> 00:50:54.720
She said, it's important to recognize that you can't be held accountable for

00:50:54.720 --> 00:50:57.740
behaviors and patterns that were established long before you came into their lives.

00:50:58.040 --> 00:51:02.120
Such habits can condition their brains to view women as objects for their entitlement and use.

00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.980
And this skewed perspective distorts their understanding of reality and relationships,

00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:08.420
leading them to conflate sex with love.

00:51:08.640 --> 00:51:12.460
They fail to grasp the essence of true intimacy and connection because they've

00:51:12.460 --> 00:51:15.780
never learned to value another person in deep, meaningful, and respectful ways.

00:51:16.020 --> 00:51:19.140
So for somebody emotionally immature, porn is appealing because it's always

00:51:19.140 --> 00:51:22.020
accessible, demands nothing from them, and doesn't challenge their behavior.

00:51:22.775 --> 00:51:28.475
So well said. Another person responded, this is now a separate topic, separate thread.

00:51:28.855 --> 00:51:32.775
She said, when my therapist highlighted that a significant issue in our relationship

00:51:32.775 --> 00:51:35.955
was my husband's failure to celebrate my achievements, I brought it up after

00:51:35.955 --> 00:51:36.955
a marriage counseling session.

00:51:37.295 --> 00:51:42.015
His response was, well, what is there to celebrate or be proud of?

00:51:42.135 --> 00:51:44.015
And she said that left her so disheartened.

00:51:44.315 --> 00:51:47.895
For instance, she said he belittled my accomplishment of graduating with an

00:51:47.895 --> 00:51:50.515
associate's degree mocking it because it was from a community college.

00:51:51.115 --> 00:51:54.175
Similarly, he dismissed the significance of me giving birth to our children,

00:51:54.275 --> 00:51:58.155
stating you couldn't help giving birth and you didn't do a particularly amazing job anyway.

00:51:58.535 --> 00:52:05.175
Which, sorry for the mothers who heard that just now, because I think if guys

00:52:05.175 --> 00:52:09.555
had to have babies, they probably wouldn't be around. I can't imagine doing that.

00:52:09.815 --> 00:52:13.735
He trivialized births as routine and suggested I needed his help rather than

00:52:13.735 --> 00:52:14.615
acknowledgement or of pride.

00:52:15.375 --> 00:52:18.755
That's just wild. Another person said, despite both of us being raised Catholic

00:52:18.755 --> 00:52:22.435
and marrying in the church, he reneged on his promise to support raising our

00:52:22.435 --> 00:52:24.155
children in the faith after losing his own.

00:52:24.355 --> 00:52:27.875
This betrayal was particularly painful after we moved across the country for

00:52:27.875 --> 00:52:32.175
his career, a move I agreed to partly because he vowed to assist with taking

00:52:32.175 --> 00:52:35.035
the kids to mass, recognizing I couldn't manage it alone.

00:52:35.455 --> 00:52:39.455
Yet when I sought his help, he criticized me, saying it's really messed up that

00:52:39.455 --> 00:52:41.955
the religious person needs the atheist to get her to church.

00:52:41.955 --> 00:52:45.735
Now, ironically, he now opposes divorce on the grounds of our Catholic faith,

00:52:45.915 --> 00:52:48.795
treating marriage as a sacrament despite his earlier actions.

00:52:49.455 --> 00:52:53.255
And I think that's, I would imagine, because that's how the button that he can

00:52:53.255 --> 00:52:58.755
push then get her to then stay in the position, that one down position, so he has that control.

00:52:58.755 --> 00:53:01.715
Control another person said his insensitivity is extended to

00:53:01.715 --> 00:53:05.195
my feelings about my body especially in relation to his viewing of pornography

00:53:05.195 --> 00:53:09.095
when i expressed insecurity comparing myself to the unrealistic standards set

00:53:09.095 --> 00:53:13.115
by such content he insensitively suggested that there's a niche for everyone

00:53:13.115 --> 00:53:18.455
and i don't even want to give this the airtime but he said including grandmother

00:53:18.455 --> 00:53:21.195
things despite me being only 35 what an insult.

00:53:22.127 --> 00:53:25.247
She says that, and this is her pathological kindness, I would imagine,

00:53:25.367 --> 00:53:27.647
because she says, although he might have intended to reassure me,

00:53:27.807 --> 00:53:31.407
his comment lingers in my mind, especially when I see my stretch marks.

00:53:31.767 --> 00:53:35.267
She said, it feels shallow to dwell on this considering these marks are a testament

00:53:35.267 --> 00:53:38.887
to carrying, birthing, and nurturing three beautiful children,

00:53:39.087 --> 00:53:43.367
a sacrifice I would willingly make again, yet it's painful that their father

00:53:43.367 --> 00:53:44.947
never appreciated any of these sacrifices.

00:53:45.467 --> 00:53:48.707
She said, I'm sharing this as is, feeling okay about it.

00:53:48.747 --> 00:53:53.607
And I'm grateful that she felt confident enough to share that because that's

00:53:53.607 --> 00:53:58.987
not okay to say that and expect that to have your partner feel safe and opening up about anything.

00:53:59.727 --> 00:54:02.587
Another person said, you're welcome to use any of these examples as they are.

00:54:02.667 --> 00:54:05.407
Some might seem trivial, but they were significant in my experience.

00:54:05.867 --> 00:54:08.907
He frequently accused me of being mentally and emotionally unstable,

00:54:09.167 --> 00:54:12.167
especially if he disapproved of something I did or said.

00:54:12.387 --> 00:54:16.427
He often claimed I was upset when I wasn't using it as a pretext to be angry with me.

00:54:16.587 --> 00:54:20.627
He criticized me for not being sufficiently grateful or for not expressing thanks

00:54:20.627 --> 00:54:25.447
Thanks properly, not just to him, but also to his family and even to kind of

00:54:25.447 --> 00:54:27.707
strangers labeling me as arrogant and entitled.

00:54:28.147 --> 00:54:32.207
He was overly concerned about my posture, constantly telling me to pull my shoulders

00:54:32.207 --> 00:54:35.827
back and sometimes physically adjusting them himself while shopping.

00:54:35.847 --> 00:54:39.247
He accused me of being reckless with the shopping cart and obstructing other people's paths.

00:54:39.707 --> 00:54:43.367
He complained that my voice was piercing and hurt his ears, leading me to adjust

00:54:43.367 --> 00:54:47.107
my volume only for him to then say he couldn't hear me speak up.

00:54:48.081 --> 00:54:50.881
She said, this has left me feeling anxious about speaking up in any setting.

00:54:51.081 --> 00:54:53.041
He ridiculed the way I sit while driving.

00:54:53.361 --> 00:54:56.661
Whenever we dined out, it had to be his idea. If I suggested a place,

00:54:56.841 --> 00:55:00.901
he would either give me the silent treatment all night or criticize my behavior throughout our outing.

00:55:01.641 --> 00:55:05.021
However, she said this never happened when we went to a place that he chose.

00:55:05.381 --> 00:55:08.841
Eventually, I stopped making suggestions, but then he would complain that I

00:55:08.841 --> 00:55:11.361
showed no interest in our outings.

00:55:11.921 --> 00:55:17.221
I just feel like if you need to hit the back button a couple of times on your

00:55:17.221 --> 00:55:20.021
podcast player, and listen to that list one more time.

00:55:20.121 --> 00:55:23.341
And then just have that reality check in with yourself.

00:55:23.741 --> 00:55:29.301
Because remember, our partner, our child, our friend, they are their own person

00:55:29.301 --> 00:55:34.141
brimming with emotion and experiences and light and life and talents and abilities.

00:55:34.701 --> 00:55:40.861
But all too often, those who are emotionally immature or who display these narcissistic

00:55:40.861 --> 00:55:45.981
traits and tendencies seem to have, it's called an antagonistic relationship

00:55:45.981 --> 00:55:47.221
with those people around them.

00:55:47.221 --> 00:55:51.061
And while I am usually not one to deep dive into scientific concepts,

00:55:51.381 --> 00:55:57.241
the situation is something from biology called antagonism. And it's this idea

00:55:57.241 --> 00:56:00.221
where one organism benefits at the expense of another.

00:56:00.441 --> 00:56:05.901
So in the context of relationships, it's like the emotionally immature or narcissistic

00:56:05.901 --> 00:56:12.241
individual thrives while diminishing the other person. Which is just something worth reflecting on.

00:56:12.521 --> 00:56:17.721
That if one person can only feel better about themselves when they take down

00:56:17.721 --> 00:56:20.941
another person, then that is an incredibly unhealthy relationship.

00:56:21.301 --> 00:56:26.141
So if that resonates with you even slightly, then I would highly recommend that

00:56:26.141 --> 00:56:30.401
you reach out to somebody to get some help. because that itself comes from your

00:56:30.401 --> 00:56:34.401
own childhood wounding, a feeling like you have to control somebody into loving

00:56:34.401 --> 00:56:35.981
you. But you can't do that.

00:56:36.081 --> 00:56:41.241
You can have love or control in an adult relationship, period. Not both.

00:56:41.681 --> 00:56:44.101
So with that said, I...

00:56:45.155 --> 00:56:48.355
When I can take a minute and talk about what a healthy, mature relationship

00:56:48.355 --> 00:56:53.155
looks like, especially in contrast to those, the dynamics that I just laid out

00:56:53.155 --> 00:56:55.015
there, that antagonistic attachment style,

00:56:55.195 --> 00:57:00.275
it's in essence, picture two people securely attached, navigating life side by side.

00:57:00.535 --> 00:57:04.275
They are in it together. They're aiming for common goals. They offer and receive

00:57:04.275 --> 00:57:06.115
empathy and it's second nature.

00:57:06.275 --> 00:57:09.115
They don't have to question what does that person mean by this?

00:57:09.175 --> 00:57:13.295
And if they do, they can ask. and they are two completely interdependent,

00:57:13.295 --> 00:57:17.495
unique individuals that of course have different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions.

00:57:17.675 --> 00:57:22.055
And that's what is so attractive about the other person is that I want to get

00:57:22.055 --> 00:57:25.915
to know them and they want to get to know me. It's not that I want to control them.

00:57:26.775 --> 00:57:32.715
It's then being able to share the real, the true and the heartfelt version of you.

00:57:32.835 --> 00:57:37.535
And that starts to lay down the solid foundation of trust and intimacy with

00:57:37.535 --> 00:57:41.155
every word, with every gesture and everything becomes an opportunity for you

00:57:41.155 --> 00:57:44.235
to self-confront and grow and for you to find out more about what your partner's

00:57:44.235 --> 00:57:47.095
experience is and in efforts to have,

00:57:47.175 --> 00:57:50.375
again, these amazing shared experiences or to make you a better person.

00:57:50.535 --> 00:57:53.795
And yes, you will bump heads from time to time. Disagreements, sure.

00:57:54.155 --> 00:57:59.715
They're part of the package. But here's the kicker. The mutual support, that part, solid.

00:57:59.995 --> 00:58:02.935
The respect and love that you have for each other, it's not negotiable.

00:58:03.235 --> 00:58:06.375
Those are not things that are up for debate or they're not threatened by the

00:58:06.375 --> 00:58:10.715
rough patches. So this is what a cooperative approach to a relationship looks like.

00:58:10.735 --> 00:58:14.255
You're working as a team where empathy and all kinds of truth,

00:58:14.335 --> 00:58:18.015
vulnerability, affection, those are the building blocks of something that is

00:58:18.015 --> 00:58:21.055
genuinely profound and therefore lasts.

00:58:21.295 --> 00:58:25.735
There's no control, no manipulation, none. What I thought would be interesting

00:58:25.735 --> 00:58:32.935
to do is flip the script and then talk about what then one as an adult human being in a healthy,

00:58:33.055 --> 00:58:38.715
non-controlling relationship can be and do what they're absolutely entitled to do.

00:58:38.915 --> 00:58:43.135
Because remembering that your feelings, your actions, your decisions are absolutely valid.

00:58:43.315 --> 00:58:46.235
So I'm going to go back to that list. This is why I suggested maybe backing

00:58:46.235 --> 00:58:47.295
up and listen to that list again.

00:58:47.415 --> 00:58:51.375
Let me go through that list now of if this person is in a healthy relationship.

00:58:51.375 --> 00:58:56.135
You have the right to experience and express your emotions without being labeled as unstable.

00:58:56.415 --> 00:59:00.635
Your feelings are valid, regardless of whether someone else approves or understands them.

00:59:00.875 --> 00:59:04.775
You're allowed to feel calm and not upset, and you don't need to justify your

00:59:04.775 --> 00:59:05.975
emotional state to anybody.

00:59:06.255 --> 00:59:09.095
And if you're not upset, you're not upset, period. period.

00:59:09.915 --> 00:59:14.775
Expressing gratitude is beautiful, but you're not obligated to perform appreciation

00:59:14.775 --> 00:59:20.135
in a specific way to meet somebody else's expectation or to make them give you that approval.

00:59:20.395 --> 00:59:23.395
Your gratitude, when you choose to express it, is enough.

00:59:24.315 --> 00:59:29.615
Your posture is yours to manage. You're the only one who gets to decide how you stand or sit or walk.

00:59:29.955 --> 00:59:34.015
If you're comfortable, it's all that matters. And if you're not, then get some help.

00:59:34.935 --> 00:59:38.675
Shopping carts and how you navigate them, turns out that's your business.

00:59:38.855 --> 00:59:42.235
Moving through a store, it's about your comfort and convenience.

00:59:42.835 --> 00:59:45.255
It's about if you want to choose the one with the wobbly wheel,

00:59:45.415 --> 00:59:49.355
you go for it. It's not about adhering to somebody else's standards of cart etiquette.

00:59:49.595 --> 00:59:54.155
And your voice, literally your voice, is uniquely yours. Whether it is loud

00:59:54.155 --> 00:59:58.435
or soft or somewhere in between, you don't need to modulate it to suit somebody else's preferences.

00:59:58.875 --> 01:00:03.295
Speak in the way that feels right to you. The way you sit while driving should

01:00:03.295 --> 01:00:06.795
be about your comfort and safety, not about meeting somebody else's aesthetic

01:00:06.795 --> 01:00:10.115
standards. standards, suggesting places to eat, activities to do,

01:00:10.155 --> 01:00:12.475
or anything that involves decision-making in a relationship.

01:00:12.875 --> 01:00:17.615
Turns out it's a two-way street and you should feel free to make suggestions

01:00:17.615 --> 01:00:22.675
without fear of the silent treatment or criticism because it turns out your

01:00:22.675 --> 01:00:25.675
ideas and preferences matter just as much as your partner's.

01:00:25.875 --> 01:00:29.115
So in a healthy relationship, you're encouraged to be yourself,

01:00:29.335 --> 01:00:31.475
to express your needs, make decisions together.

01:00:31.615 --> 01:00:35.135
It's about mutual respect and support and understanding where both partners

01:00:35.135 --> 01:00:37.215
feel valued and they both feel heard.

01:00:37.335 --> 01:00:39.915
Another person said that they're okay with me sharing everything.

01:00:40.115 --> 01:00:43.415
The episode on death by a thousand cuts, she said, was a turning point for her.

01:00:43.495 --> 01:00:45.875
And it was when she realized that she had found the help that she needed.

01:00:46.235 --> 01:00:49.195
She said, can we talk about financial thousand cuts?

01:00:49.695 --> 01:00:53.895
She said, when seeking advice, I often encountered noncommittal responses with

01:00:53.895 --> 01:00:57.715
others likening their experiences to mine or advising patients or emphasizing

01:00:57.715 --> 01:01:00.415
the importance of supporting my husband through job difficulties.

01:01:00.875 --> 01:01:02.135
So she said, because of that.

01:01:03.034 --> 01:01:07.194
She said, I avoided discussing financial issues. I never initiated conversations about budgeting.

01:01:07.554 --> 01:01:10.594
After enduring gaslighting and playing the victim, he'd agree to a budget,

01:01:10.654 --> 01:01:13.994
but then never last more than a month. I did an episode a while ago on shelf life.

01:01:14.434 --> 01:01:18.374
He lied about his lunch expenses. He had fast food receipts and trash.

01:01:18.634 --> 01:01:22.334
He played the victim when I expressed frustration over his lack of full work

01:01:22.334 --> 01:01:24.034
days or concern for our financial struggles.

01:01:24.354 --> 01:01:26.554
He refused to seek financial advice or assistance.

01:01:27.094 --> 01:01:30.674
Job hopping was frequent, blaming the economy, bosses, or others.

01:01:31.394 --> 01:01:35.054
He ensured funds were available for his sports viewing. He failed to acknowledge

01:01:35.054 --> 01:01:38.334
the effort and humiliation involved in applying for financial assistance programs.

01:01:38.634 --> 01:01:41.474
She said, my birthday was typically ignored during his unemployment.

01:01:41.994 --> 01:01:44.934
He adopted a victim stance when I sought help from church leaders.

01:01:45.394 --> 01:01:48.234
Financial discussions were redirected to how they impacted him,

01:01:48.314 --> 01:01:52.554
with complaints about how budgeting highlighted his earnings and made him feel bad.

01:01:52.914 --> 01:01:57.474
His mother employed him for basement work, which she calls it,

01:01:57.514 --> 01:02:00.254
rewarding him with clothes, gadgets, while our family struggled.

01:02:00.674 --> 01:02:04.694
And he blamed me for being dissatisfied with his income, painting me as greedy

01:02:04.694 --> 01:02:05.714
in counseling sessions.

01:02:06.094 --> 01:02:09.434
She said, if I prepared leftovers for dinner, then he would make himself a different meal.

01:02:09.914 --> 01:02:13.054
She said, these financial challenges were just another layer of the complex

01:02:13.054 --> 01:02:16.714
difficulties that we faced, underscoring the emotional and practical struggles

01:02:16.714 --> 01:02:17.514
within our relationship.

01:02:17.954 --> 01:02:21.254
And another person addressed the financial control as well. She said,

01:02:21.334 --> 01:02:24.694
throughout our marriage as a stay-at-home mom, I had no control over her finances,

01:02:24.734 --> 01:02:27.674
which were entirely managed by my husband, including investments.

01:02:27.674 --> 01:02:30.634
When he sold a property and considered reinvesting the proceeds,

01:02:30.894 --> 01:02:34.414
I suggested buying a small vacation home for our children to enjoy during the

01:02:34.414 --> 01:02:36.354
summer, which could also be rented out.

01:02:36.634 --> 01:02:39.914
However, after viewing a few properties, he dismissed the idea,

01:02:40.194 --> 01:02:43.574
claiming it wouldn't be profitable, and instead invested in the stock market,

01:02:43.694 --> 01:02:47.094
where he unfortunately lost a significant portion of the money.

01:02:48.001 --> 01:02:50.781
She said, I was responsible for purchasing groceries, children's clothing,

01:02:50.941 --> 01:02:54.501
school pictures, and even furniture, but I could only use one specific credit

01:02:54.501 --> 01:02:57.001
card, and I was on a strict budget.

01:02:57.181 --> 01:03:00.021
The monthly bill-paying session was a dreaded event.

01:03:00.321 --> 01:03:04.861
Any overspending, whether by $50 or $500, resulted in hours of beratement.

01:03:05.061 --> 01:03:08.941
He blamed me for potential future failures, such as the kids not attending college

01:03:08.941 --> 01:03:13.441
or the inability to go on a vacation, questioning how I managed before we were married.

01:03:14.181 --> 01:03:19.421
My allowance, she called it, was $300 biweekly, from which any overspending

01:03:19.421 --> 01:03:20.881
was deducted as my punishment.

01:03:21.281 --> 01:03:25.181
This situation was so distressing that I would pretend to sleep to avoid confrontation,

01:03:25.581 --> 01:03:29.101
feeling utterly incapable and fearful of independence.

01:03:29.581 --> 01:03:34.301
Despite living in a $3 million inherited home, rent-free, the financial scrutiny

01:03:34.301 --> 01:03:38.861
over minor amounts was baffling. As I leave this marriage, I'm resigned to receiving

01:03:38.861 --> 01:03:43.461
nothing from the home where I raised our children, a place that actually never truly felt like mine.

01:03:43.541 --> 01:03:46.721
She said on one occasion while chatting with a neighbor, I decided to bring in the garbage bins.

01:03:46.881 --> 01:03:49.201
Typically, my husband's task is a kind gesture.

01:03:49.581 --> 01:03:54.341
Upon his return, instead of expressing gratitude, he criticized the placement

01:03:54.341 --> 01:03:58.361
of the bins, particularly the compost bin, which he claimed made his task more difficult.

01:03:58.761 --> 01:04:01.381
When I addressed his comment, he accused me of overreacting,

01:04:01.441 --> 01:04:04.781
asserting his right to dictate household operations because we were married.

01:04:05.361 --> 01:04:07.801
Another person said, you are welcome to share any of these experiences.

01:04:07.961 --> 01:04:12.081
They might seem minor to some, but then again, were profoundly impactful for me.

01:04:12.641 --> 01:04:15.381
She said, gifts became a source of disappointment rather than joy.

01:04:15.541 --> 01:04:18.861
The first Christmas after we were married, he gave me pots and pans and for

01:04:18.861 --> 01:04:19.981
my birthday, a vacuum cleaner.

01:04:20.201 --> 01:04:23.621
When my daughters excitedly chose a portable record player for his vast but

01:04:23.621 --> 01:04:26.781
unused record collection, his reaction was dismissive and critical,

01:04:27.001 --> 01:04:28.561
leaving them and me heartbroken.

01:04:28.821 --> 01:04:32.641
My gifts remained predictably uninspired, highlighting a lack of thoughtfulness

01:04:32.641 --> 01:04:33.261
and attention. Thank you for your attention.

01:04:34.056 --> 01:04:38.396
His behavior in public, like overly staging affectionate reunions with our daughter

01:04:38.396 --> 01:04:42.796
to garner attention, felt disingenuous and focused more on appearances than genuine connection.

01:04:43.276 --> 01:04:47.516
The daily interrogations about my activities and conversations left me walking

01:04:47.516 --> 01:04:50.856
on eggshells, creating a constant state of anxiety and humiliation.

01:04:51.656 --> 01:04:55.136
Rigid dinner routines and unrealistic expectations around household chores,

01:04:55.316 --> 01:04:58.656
like bringing in the garbage bins, were enforced under his critical eye,

01:04:58.756 --> 01:05:01.036
often leading to unnecessary conflict and criticism. narcissism.

01:05:01.796 --> 01:05:05.596
Comparisons to his late mother set an impossible standard, making me feel inadequate

01:05:05.596 --> 01:05:09.836
and undervalued, a sentiment that extended to his father's comparisons as well.

01:05:09.956 --> 01:05:13.536
She said her volunteer work, particularly her involvement with the Red Cross

01:05:13.536 --> 01:05:18.036
at Ground Zero, became a source of shame rather than pride under his scrutiny,

01:05:18.276 --> 01:05:22.656
leading me to hide this significant part of my life, even from our children.

01:05:22.816 --> 01:05:26.136
She said that had been a huge part of her life. Eventually, I couldn't mention

01:05:26.136 --> 01:05:28.076
any of my experience around Ground Zero.

01:05:28.296 --> 01:05:31.696
She said I put my hard hat and vest in a box in the garage and never mentioned it again.

01:05:32.076 --> 01:05:35.776
He made me ashamed of something I was once proud of. My kids didn't know about

01:05:35.776 --> 01:05:36.616
it until they were teenagers.

01:05:37.196 --> 01:05:39.416
They were shocked and couldn't believe I had kept that from them.

01:05:39.656 --> 01:05:42.776
They learned all about it in school and were very proud of me.

01:05:43.016 --> 01:05:47.416
His insecurities seemed to make them feel that my achievements somehow made him look less than.

01:05:47.816 --> 01:05:49.756
So he belittled me until I broke.

01:05:50.336 --> 01:05:53.396
Counseling sought as a means of healing turned into another battleground with

01:05:53.396 --> 01:05:56.896
his insistence on a male counselor and eventual dismissal of the process reflecting

01:05:56.896 --> 01:06:00.116
on his unwillingness to address our issues constructively.

01:06:00.973 --> 01:06:05.513
His accusations of a guilty conscience and dismissive apologies after exhaustive

01:06:05.513 --> 01:06:08.373
arguments left me feeling empty and questioning my own sanity,

01:06:08.613 --> 01:06:11.553
contributing to a decline in my mental well-being and my memory.

01:06:11.913 --> 01:06:15.633
The constant invasion of privacy and lack of respect for personal boundaries

01:06:15.633 --> 01:06:20.453
exacerbated feelings of anxiety and panic, profoundly affecting my sense of

01:06:20.453 --> 01:06:22.073
safety and comfort in my own home.

01:06:22.633 --> 01:06:27.993
So, she said, these experiences, while individually they might seem small,

01:06:28.253 --> 01:06:31.713
they collectively represent present a profound impact on my well-being and my

01:06:31.713 --> 01:06:37.173
self-perception, underscoring the deep and lasting effects of living in a controlling

01:06:37.173 --> 01:06:38.673
and an unsupportive relationship.

01:06:39.013 --> 01:06:43.953
Okay, I think I've got plenty more that we'll just save for the eighth installment

01:06:43.953 --> 01:06:47.733
of Death by a Thousand Cuts, but thanks for taking the time today.

01:06:48.533 --> 01:06:52.273
And hopefully you can see that through all of these stories and reflections

01:06:52.273 --> 01:06:57.213
that there is a bit of a silver lining that keeps shining through and it's about realizing that,

01:06:57.273 --> 01:07:02.513
yeah, Yeah, these people have faced these challenges that most would probably

01:07:02.513 --> 01:07:03.773
knock most people off their feet.

01:07:03.953 --> 01:07:08.053
But then here are these people sharing these experiences, whether it's in a

01:07:08.053 --> 01:07:09.153
group, sending me the emails.

01:07:09.373 --> 01:07:13.693
And as they're starting to put these pieces together, they are recognizing that

01:07:13.693 --> 01:07:17.393
they are surviving and they're starting to get stronger.

01:07:17.533 --> 01:07:22.333
And yeah, it's a bit of a slow process, but you really are right where you need to be.

01:07:22.433 --> 01:07:26.793
And you're doing as much as you can right now. And with that acceptance and

01:07:26.793 --> 01:07:29.993
hearing and taking in this information, it is starting to change the interior

01:07:29.993 --> 01:07:32.233
landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be you.

01:07:32.653 --> 01:07:37.913
And it's just a reminder that we're not just surviving these experiences,

01:07:38.013 --> 01:07:39.073
you're learning from them too.

01:07:39.373 --> 01:07:44.053
And you're starting to gather up a lot of wisdom and not just to even heal yourself,

01:07:44.253 --> 01:07:48.793
but you can also start lighting the way for others on this path too.

01:07:48.793 --> 01:07:52.333
Let me give a couple of action steps that I think are key.

01:07:52.533 --> 01:07:57.333
One of those is spend a little bit of time journaling, honestly, or self-reflection.

01:07:58.093 --> 01:08:00.793
Whether it's daily or weekly, it doesn't have to be in a narrative format.

01:08:01.233 --> 01:08:05.093
But I really feel like it's important to write down some of these experiences

01:08:05.093 --> 01:08:10.213
because your short-term memory is probably on life support right now because

01:08:10.213 --> 01:08:13.173
your whole brain is focused on trying to make sense of the nonsense.

01:08:13.173 --> 01:08:18.273
And part of that complex post-traumatic stress disorder is that eventually your

01:08:18.273 --> 01:08:22.433
brain is sending all its blood flow to the amygdala to then get ready for battle.

01:08:22.693 --> 01:08:27.113
And one of the areas that it robs is the short-term memory, the hippocampus.

01:08:27.573 --> 01:08:32.593
So it is important to write things down. I used to feel like that maybe isn't

01:08:32.593 --> 01:08:35.433
as productive to write down all the negative things that have happened.

01:08:35.573 --> 01:08:39.353
But when you start questioning your own sanity and thinking that things maybe

01:08:39.353 --> 01:08:42.813
aren't so bad, I think it would help to be able to look back.

01:08:43.073 --> 01:08:46.873
I think it could help to look back and see that, no, I'm not crazy.

01:08:47.053 --> 01:08:52.373
These things happened. And you've most likely tried to put a nice shine,

01:08:52.613 --> 01:08:56.173
maybe a matte finish, a gloss over a lot of these things that happen,

01:08:56.233 --> 01:08:57.953
if you can remember them at all.

01:08:59.317 --> 01:09:04.297
But remembering them is part of your healing and being able to recognize that

01:09:04.297 --> 01:09:07.597
my body is trying to tell me something and I can't just keep shoving all this stuff away.

01:09:08.377 --> 01:09:12.177
Jot some of those things down. And then over time, I think that practice alone

01:09:12.177 --> 01:09:13.397
can help you clarify your thoughts.

01:09:13.817 --> 01:09:17.797
It'll help you to strengthen your understanding of your own worth and maybe

01:09:17.797 --> 01:09:22.157
guide you as you're starting to set those boundaries that will hopefully eventually

01:09:22.157 --> 01:09:26.077
give you this place where it protects and helps you respect your own emotional well-being.

01:09:26.357 --> 01:09:31.457
And then find help. As a therapist, I think it's a great idea to seek professional

01:09:31.457 --> 01:09:35.557
help, but you can also find supportive communities, whether online,

01:09:35.817 --> 01:09:40.697
in person, that focus on your emotional health, your recovery from controlling

01:09:40.697 --> 01:09:42.497
or emotionally neglectful relationships.

01:09:43.397 --> 01:09:48.137
And that's where maybe right now we need to go for the validation or understanding

01:09:48.137 --> 01:09:51.277
or shared experiences, because that can help remind you you're not alone.

01:09:51.637 --> 01:09:55.397
And it can be scary to enter into a group, but it is one of the most healing

01:09:55.397 --> 01:09:57.097
things that you can be a part of.

01:09:57.697 --> 01:10:04.017
And then truly do look for that professional help if you need it, which it never hurts.

01:10:04.737 --> 01:10:08.557
And then remember that sharing your story, hearing others, that is part of the

01:10:08.557 --> 01:10:09.837
healing process. It is empowering.

01:10:10.197 --> 01:10:11.997
Let's wrap this thing up. It's

01:10:11.997 --> 01:10:15.057
okay to seek out those relationships that truly reflect what we value.

01:10:15.077 --> 01:10:18.597
Respect, empathy, mutual reciprocity, genuine connection.

01:10:18.977 --> 01:10:24.357
And then the acceptance that you're here and in order to get the tools that

01:10:24.357 --> 01:10:26.257
you're going going to need to become the very best version of you,

01:10:26.317 --> 01:10:30.737
you had to go through some of these things to then even know that you needed change.

01:10:31.477 --> 01:10:37.617
So it doesn't sound like a great sales pitch for life, but then now that you're

01:10:37.617 --> 01:10:40.977
here and that happened, and now you're on this path of healing,

01:10:41.277 --> 01:10:46.017
I promise that you just keep staying down this path and raising that baseline

01:10:46.017 --> 01:10:48.717
and get that PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations,

01:10:49.097 --> 01:10:52.757
set healthy boundaries, and realize that there's nothing you can do or say that

01:10:52.757 --> 01:10:55.597
will cause the other person to have that aha moment or epiphany.

01:10:55.757 --> 01:10:59.397
And you're going to start finding yourself in a place where what it feels like

01:10:59.397 --> 01:11:03.057
to be you is you're a pretty good hang. It's a good time.

01:11:03.617 --> 01:11:06.257
Here's to moving forward. You're on a path of discovery, enlightenment.

01:11:06.457 --> 01:11:10.237
You are absolutely worthy of love, of respect, of being heard and valued.

01:11:10.417 --> 01:11:14.697
You are enough, period, end of story. You have everything you need already bundled up inside of you.

01:11:15.137 --> 01:11:19.037
And this life, in my opinion, is the opportunity to unlock all those those wonderful,

01:11:19.137 --> 01:11:21.637
amazing things that make up who you are.

01:11:21.857 --> 01:11:25.217
And while ideally that would be done in a mutually reciprocal relationship,

01:11:25.537 --> 01:11:28.097
we don't have those crystal balls when we're getting into relationships.

01:11:28.337 --> 01:11:31.677
We don't know what we don't know as we navigate life and then things come up

01:11:31.677 --> 01:11:33.057
and we have an opportunity for growth.

01:11:33.597 --> 01:11:37.177
Here's to that growth. Taking us out per usual, the wonderful,

01:11:37.357 --> 01:11:39.497
the talented Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful.

01:11:39.920 --> 01:13:45.520
Music.

01:13:45.500 --> 01:13:52.620
Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you.

01:13:52.560 --> 01:15:02.883
Music.