WEBVTT

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Music.

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Episode 110 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host, Tony Overbay,

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a licensed marriage and family therapist, and let's dive right in.

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So imagine that you are a little kid again, and you've got somebody who is there

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to look out for you. This is your superhero.

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They may not have a cape, and this superhero, this is your cheerleader.

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This is your number one hype man, and they were incredible.

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And they sit with you, and they try to understand you. They're so curious about you.

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They're so invested you just feel alive when you're

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around them so sure you're still going to have your ups and downs because

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you're a little kid but this person they're pretty

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consistent and they've been doing this ever since you can remember as long as

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you are alive and let's face it you as a little kid you can kind of be a handful

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but this person this superhero they just seem to be a safe place because they're

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just overall vibe their energy everything just felt It felt good. It felt safe.

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They were there to give you a hug when you scraped your knee.

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They were there to calm you down if there was a thunder or lightning outside.

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And back to the superpower, it's like they had this power to just make you feel

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safe and just snug whenever they walked into the room or whenever you happened upon them.

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And they would talk to you in the language of emotions and they were always

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tuning in to what you needed as you grew.

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And we can be super honest. Nobody is perfect. Not even our superhero hype man.

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They couldn't possibly catch every single little signal that you were sending

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out, especially not 24 hours a day and seven days a week. And that's absolutely fine.

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But what mattered was that they kept on trying and they kept on tuning in.

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So even if they missed the mark, they didn't throw in the towel.

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You didn't see them just get all upset and flustered with themselves.

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They stayed in the game. They apologized for things. They continued to check

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in and they started to be pretty pretty emotionally consistent.

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And they just made sure that that connection stayed strong.

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And then thanks to this rock solid bond, you got to grow up feeling good about yourself.

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You were ready to trust others. And so then even when things got a bit rocky

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in your own world, even if your superhero hype man wasn't there,

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you could handle it. You could give yourself a little bit of grace.

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So that is the magic of having a secure attachment.

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And our hope is that that that's going to be something that we have with our parent.

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Now, I still go back to the fact that this is stuff that we're just now starting to figure out.

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And you can see that even the best parent is still going to have all of their own things going on.

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And so they, if they don't know what they don't know, they may not be able to

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provide that secure attachment.

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And you might not have had that growing up. But I think it's so important to

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point out what a secure attachment can look like, especially to your kids.

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So if you're not currently able to be present in their their life,

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then you may be missing out on this amazing opportunity to provide this secure attachment.

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Because our kids, and this is what we wanted, was somebody that we could count on.

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Somebody who at the time, especially when you were a kid, you didn't even really

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know that they must have been having to do their own work to be able to continue

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to show up consistently because you had no clue that they had all of their own

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challenges of life going on.

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But for you as a kid, it's like having that invisible safety net that lets you

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leap out into life and you're pretty confident because you're going to land in the safety net.

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And as a matter of fact, this parent, the secure attachment,

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this number one hype man is going to be the one that's going to help you get

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off of that net and then say, man, what was that like?

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So I want to dig a little bit deeper today into the whole idea of a secure attachment.

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But this time we are going to look at how it plays out when you are all grown

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up and navigating the world of adult relationships.

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Relationships so having a secure attachment style is kind

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of like having a superpower in your relationship now as

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an adult you can try to have that secure attachment

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as you show up in your relationship and it doesn't mean that you become mr or

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mrs perfect far from it you're still human and of course you're going to hit

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some bumps in the road but here's the good part you have now this inner confidence

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that helps you own up to your mistakes you're not afraid to say hey my bad had, I messed up.

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And then you're all about finding solutions. But what do I do moving forward?

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And if your partner is the one that's saying, I don't know why you do this all

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the time, there's nothing that we can do about this.

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You start to understand, they don't necessarily feel very secure.

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And if they now have this.

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Thing that they feel like they can weaponize against me, that really is a them thing.

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Because now I'm on this path of awakening and I'm reading things,

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I'm listening to podcasts, I'm showing up, I'm doing, I'm being.

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And so you now are about finding solutions. Now you recognize that you cannot

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force this other person to do their work, but you now get it. You're doing yours.

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And whether that means asking for advice, going to a therapist,

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leaning on others, whatever it takes, when things get tough,

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you start to realize, oh man, I've missed out on on a secure attachment.

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And that is why I am still finding myself waking up every day saying,

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hey, who can I get to validate me?

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Or if I can get this person to feel comfortable enough, then maybe they'll notice me.

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Because we want to get you to this place of, you know your worth,

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and you're not about to hide who you are, even in the most intimate relationships.

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And this is really when people are talking about being vulnerable,

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can you be vulnerable in your relationship?

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And a lot of people listening to Waking Up to Narcissism have tried their very

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very best, but they're just left feeling like what just happened and what's

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wrong with me and why it must be me. I must be unlovable.

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But you start from birth as lovable and moving forward, that's still a constant.

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And you need to know that internally. You need to have that secure attachment

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with yourself so that you're showing up in your relationships, feeling pretty good.

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And now again, I'll have some ups and downs, but now I got somebody there that

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I can process in motion with.

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I got somebody there that's my number one hype man, this superhero without a cape.

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So if that is not what you have in your relationship, I'm not saying,

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well, you just pack your bags and head out right now.

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But this is one of those concepts that I think we all need to understand what

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attachment looks like, what a secure attachment feels like, and what an anxious

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attachment, what an avoidant attachment, what those look like in our relationships.

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Now, are Are they immediately easy to change? Absolutely not.

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But we're in that process where you probably didn't even know what they were,

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or you're starting to hear about them.

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You didn't know what you didn't know. Now you might kind of know,

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but you're still not really sure what that means.

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But now you want a relationship where you can be all in.

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You would love to share your dreams, your fears, and everything in between and

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not know that that's going to come back and bite you because if you are in one

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of those relationships, you know that it typically does.

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So then when it comes to being with that special somebody in your life,

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you're all about giving and receiving support.

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It's not a one-way street. It's a mutually reciprocal relationship.

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You actually love being together, but you're also completely cool doing your own thing.

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And it's not about clinging so tight or needing a ton of space.

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It's really about finding that sweet spot where you both feel good.

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And that only can happen when both of you are showing up and both of you are

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doing your work and both of you are looking internally at, all right, what is this?

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What is the saying about me? How can I show up and be better?

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But that can't just be a one-sided street.

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So then if this secure attachments there, when your partner needs you,

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you're there, no questions asked.

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You've got this knack for, you're able to keep your cool and you can handle

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conflict in a way that's healthy.

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It's constructive because life is going to continue to throw a bunch of curve

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balls, which I could never hit as a baseball player, but in your relationships

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and outside of them, you've got this bounce back ability, this sort of thing

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that helps you get through these tough times.

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Now you could weather that storm alone if you needed to, but man,

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when you've got this secure attachment, when you've got this safe relationship,

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somebody that you can just know is there, you can count on them.

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They've got your back, they love you.

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And that really does make going through life a little bit easier.

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So, in a nutshell, having a secure attachment style means you are navigating

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these ups and downs of relationships with a sense of trust and you can be open

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and you can be resilient.

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You are developing this emotional toolkit that then helps you build strong,

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healthy connection with the people you care about. out.

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But wait a minute. What is that up there in the clearing?

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I just saw something run by. Was that a tail or wait a horn? Okay. It's a unicorn.

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And yeah. Hi there, Mr. Leprechaun. No, for the last time, I could not care

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less about your lucky charms. Anyway, secure attachment.

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The reason why I pulled the old unicorn and leprechaun bit is I hope that this

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has started to get you a little bit more hyped up about what it can look like.

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And if you are here and you're listening to this podcast, I know that you are

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trying to navigate a relationship, whether it's with your spouse,

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whether it's with your boss, whether it's with your adult parent,

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your sibling, your adult child, whatever that looks like.

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And I just really want to continue to say, hey, here's what we're looking at.

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We're not looking for perfection, but if we don't even know what we're striving for,

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then we're just going to continue to try to make sense of maybe the nonsense

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that we're in instead of recognizing that, man, I am of worth and I deserve

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to be heard and understood because I'm willing to give that to somebody.

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And as I've tried to give that to somebody who's thrown that back in my face

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or use that against me, it turns out that isn't a me problem.

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Now, the me problem might be that I don't know what to do.

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I don't know how to speak up or I don't know how to move forward or maybe even

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if I need to start navigating what an exit would look like. I'm not sure what that looks like.

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But wherever you are on that path, it's where you are.

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And sometimes I feel like, and maybe it's because I'm talking to people all

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day from my therapist chair, I'm still looking for somebody who grew up with

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that idyllic childhood.

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Again, no, we're not talking about perfect, but that they felt that confident

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about themselves coming out of adolescence.

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Because I've had plenty of people, and I love it, tell me that their childhood was darn near perfect.

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And I'm not saying that my job is to tell them they're wrong,

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to say, really? You sure?

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But the more you get into what that attachment pattern looks like,

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a little further examination, we typically learned that, oh,

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okay, yeah, some of those things, I guess, maybe weren't so normal.

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So without that secure attachment, we're going to come out of childhood with

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some good old attachment wounds, which will most likely leave us seeking a lot

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of validation or feeling like we want to completely isolate when the relationship

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spotlight starts to shine directly on us.

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And that, my amazing listeners, my emotional architects, is why I believe that

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we show up in our relationships lovingly and amazingly emotionally immature

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and enmeshed with a deficit of self-love.

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Shout out to Ross Rosenberg and his work on redefining codependency to self-love deficit disorder.

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And all of this is what brings us up to part two of theoretically two,

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but we'll see how we feel in another half an hour or so, if we'll need a part

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three of two, of talking about the narcissist and attachment styles.

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And as we start to dig into this part two, I think it's important to recognize

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that when I am talking about narcissism, hopefully by now you can recognize

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that for me personally, for this podcast that I'm looking at narcissism,

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narcissistic traits and tendencies,

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but mainly sliding over into the world of extreme emotional immaturity.

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Okay. And before we really dig into the attachment styles, stay with me here

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for a second, because I think there's a little bit of a shift that's going to

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happen because let's talk about emotional immaturity and you can almost see

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where the emotionally immature person really is insecure,

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but you can watch this origin story or this genesis of where the script starts

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to flip, where then they end up having more control.

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But it comes from this place of insecurity. I wrote out this narrative of it's

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really it's imagined that you are dealing with somebody who is kind of stuck

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in an emotional throwback phase.

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And we often say that the emotionally mature, it's like dealing with a 10 year

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old. Sometimes I make a hilarious comment and say, oh, you're giving them a couple of years credit.

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But it really is like this spectrum of from adolescence into teenagehood when

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now somebody goes from I don't know how to show up and be seen to,

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OK, well, I'm going to figure this out.

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And I know how to control in order to feel like people are going to stay with me.

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And if you look at that concept of what happens in a high school drama when

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it comes to handling the ups and downs of life, when things don't go the way

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of the emotionally immature, they are probably going to throw a fit or get really

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defensive at just the slightest hint of criticism.

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Or they really can't seem to put themselves in somebody else's shoes.

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They're quick with a, yeah, but why didn't you do this?

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Or, oh, really, that's what you do? That's so funny. I do things completely different and better.

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But what then happens from there

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is what's fascinating, is that they then retreat into their own world.

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And this is where we start looking at what will eventually become something

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like the narcissist discard.

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So to that pathologically kind person, when the emotionally immature narcissistic

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person leaves the interaction after the emotionally immature person just said

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something pretty horrific,

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now that emotionally immature person then retreats into their own world because

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this is what happened in their childhood.

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This is what happened in their teenage years because they could not continue

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to show up and possibly be wrong or stay in a conversation and just be too emotionally vulnerable.

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So I get out of that discomfort and then I retreat into my own world,

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maybe glued to my phone, but not looking to grow or change.

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So now they are changing or they're going through life.

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It is definitely on their own timeline and they're oblivious to the emotional

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roller coaster that they're putting others through because that pathologically

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kind person now is sitting there thinking, okay, now I feel worse that I was even saying anything.

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So, it's like that emotionally immature person goes from this place of immaturity

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and insecurity and thinking, okay, I just told you how you could act and feel

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better. And now you didn't respond.

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I'm out of here. It's like I'm upset and you don't get it. or now they're psychologically,

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they're wounded, they're hurt on the inside because to them,

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it's also, well, nobody ever listened to me as a kid.

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So I'm going to be able to take this power back and take this control in the

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relationship by controlling others.

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And so then they become, they go back into this bubble where they can't see

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beyond their own feelings and they don't even know or realize the effort it

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takes to really connect and understand somebody else's struggles.

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Nobody Nobody saw them as a kid.

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So then they will then just when they leave a situation, they feel like,

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OK, well, that that's that's how conversations go.

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They dealt with it. And then somehow then they eventually seem to kind of bounce

00:14:25.765 --> 00:14:28.625
back on their own terms. And now they get to act like everything's back to normal.

00:14:28.845 --> 00:14:32.205
And then even to tell you, no, I'm good. I'm not really sure what you're upset

00:14:32.205 --> 00:14:34.105
about. It's emotionally inconsistent.

00:14:35.140 --> 00:14:37.960
And here's where it gets really tricky. So then if you, as their partner,

00:14:38.060 --> 00:14:41.500
their friend, or even their kid, try to get to the heart of the issue,

00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:43.300
or if then something sets them off again,

00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:46.620
then they shut down and they start making all these assumptions that you should

00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.580
just know why I'm upset without even giving you any actual words or tools to understand.

00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:54.100
And it just provides you with this continuous cycle of confusion,

00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:57.620
these misconnections. And then there's where the dynamic starts to shift the

00:14:57.620 --> 00:14:58.800
balance of power in the relationship.

00:14:59.140 --> 00:15:01.600
The person who was once trying to connect and be understood,

00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:04.820
the pathologically kind, now they feel lost. They feel sidelined.

00:15:05.140 --> 00:15:07.860
And the emotionally immature person now, they end up being able to call the

00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:09.540
shots. They engage when they want to engage.

00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:12.180
They're done with this conversation when they're done. When they come in and

00:15:12.180 --> 00:15:14.200
they're happy, then you need to join them. When they're sad,

00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.640
I can't believe you didn't recognize and you didn't take care of me.

00:15:17.420 --> 00:15:21.560
And that just happens over and over. And that cycle just continues to repeat.

00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.100
And then this pattern, that's what strains relationships.

00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:29.520
And it can really lead to a sense of detachment and loneliness for both parties.

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.680
It's a tough spot to be in. You know, but I speak to the pathologically kind

00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:37.980
of trying to navigate a relationship where you desire this emotional growth

00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:43.160
and then you want to communicate more, but it is an absolute maze of how to do that.

00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:48.000
And the person that's calling the shots now has grown up not feeling seen or

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.300
understood and believing that, well, a conversation, the way it works is we

00:15:52.300 --> 00:15:54.780
get to the part where I'm right or I leave this conversation.

00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:00.460
So, when we ended part one of our exploration of narcissism and attachment styles,

00:16:00.700 --> 00:16:05.580
we were just getting to a point of talking about how narcissism develops and

00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:09.400
how early interactions and relationships can shape the personality styles.

00:16:09.880 --> 00:16:15.120
And I want to give a tremendous amount of credit to the attachmentproject.com.

00:16:15.180 --> 00:16:20.940
It's not the, it's attachmentproject.com and the article narcissistic personality and attachment.

00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.340
And I'll have the link in the show notes. But they say that according to research,

00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:28.000
there are several early conditions that contribute to the development of narcissism.

00:16:28.060 --> 00:16:32.740
And we go into this world of is it nature or nurture and simply stated, yes.

00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:35.620
But some of the concepts are overindulgence.

00:16:36.380 --> 00:16:41.100
So imagine a kid who is treated like a little prince or a little princess,

00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:45.900
a king or a queen when they're at home, where every single thing that they want that they get. it.

00:16:46.420 --> 00:16:50.300
So then their parents, their caregivers, they shower them with praise and gifts

00:16:50.300 --> 00:16:53.600
and attention, and there's no real boundaries. There's no real limits.

00:16:54.020 --> 00:16:57.580
And you can even see that this can come from an emotionally immature parent

00:16:57.580 --> 00:17:02.680
because the parent doesn't want to feel bad about if the kid feels bad.

00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:05.500
So if the kid starts to act up, then the way that the parent gets rid of that

00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:07.440
discomfort is let me just give them what they need.

00:17:07.600 --> 00:17:10.280
And then I feel like a good parent and then they get what they need,

00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:14.660
but it's just creating the cycle of overindulgence because the kid really does

00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:16.700
start to believe that they are the center of the universe.

00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:21.320
Now, kids feel that by nature, but this is the, I literally just utter a word

00:17:21.320 --> 00:17:24.660
and then my subjects, my royal subjects go and do my bidding.

00:17:25.733 --> 00:17:28.793
It's not that I utter a word and my parents are there saying,

00:17:28.913 --> 00:17:30.393
hey, what can I do? What do you need?

00:17:30.593 --> 00:17:33.993
And then if I say, again, I want candy for dinner, they're not saying,

00:17:34.133 --> 00:17:38.073
okay, yeah, no problem, but just this one time. Or they're not saying, are you kidding me?

00:17:38.433 --> 00:17:41.133
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. They're going to sit there

00:17:41.133 --> 00:17:45.293
with you and try to hear you and try to help you understand that there's things

00:17:45.293 --> 00:17:47.693
that we maybe need to have before we have candy.

00:17:48.413 --> 00:17:51.753
But when the kid starts to believe that they really are the center of the universe,

00:17:51.953 --> 00:17:55.573
then then they will expect everybody around them to treat them with the same

00:17:55.573 --> 00:17:57.433
level of adoration and indulgence.

00:17:57.853 --> 00:18:02.513
So just take somebody in their childhood and growing up, their parents always

00:18:02.513 --> 00:18:05.373
make a big deal out of everything they do from the tiniest little thing.

00:18:05.873 --> 00:18:08.713
And this is where just for context, why I like a parenting model,

00:18:08.813 --> 00:18:10.133
like the nurtured heart approach,

00:18:10.253 --> 00:18:14.353
where I'm not going to react to the button pushing that my kid does,

00:18:14.433 --> 00:18:19.053
but then I'm going to give genuine praise when, When, man, I love the way that

00:18:19.053 --> 00:18:23.573
you just calm down because that shows me that you are really becoming a good big brother.

00:18:23.853 --> 00:18:27.413
Or, man, I see you doing your homework right when you got home.

00:18:27.693 --> 00:18:29.213
And that just blows my mind. It

00:18:29.213 --> 00:18:32.933
just shows me that you are just really dedicated and you get things done.

00:18:33.293 --> 00:18:37.553
Instead of like, good job, bud. Yeah. Okay. I see it. Yeah, I get it. I see you.

00:18:38.373 --> 00:18:42.273
Because what happens then is if you fast forward this kid who has just gotten

00:18:42.273 --> 00:18:46.993
nothing but hollow praise, every single thing handed to them at the moment that they utter a word,

00:18:47.573 --> 00:18:53.973
then that person has probably never heard the word no, or never even been asked

00:18:53.973 --> 00:18:57.953
questions about, well, tell me more about that, or what can we do to work toward that?

00:18:58.333 --> 00:19:01.413
Now, fast forward to adulthood, that person's going to expect the same royal

00:19:01.413 --> 00:19:03.273
treatment from friends, coworkers, partners.

00:19:03.653 --> 00:19:07.613
So when a boss doesn't give them praise or every single task that's completed,

00:19:07.653 --> 00:19:09.753
or a friend doesn't constantly shower them with compliments,

00:19:09.913 --> 00:19:11.433
then they're slighted and angry.

00:19:11.573 --> 00:19:16.293
And then relationships start to be strained because this person will see everybody

00:19:16.293 --> 00:19:20.973
else subconsciously, maybe as fans who must adore and praise them constantly,

00:19:21.033 --> 00:19:25.593
or as enemies who don't recognize their, their amazingness, their specialness.

00:19:25.873 --> 00:19:29.693
And so that is going to lead to conflicts and a cycle of unstable relationships.

00:19:29.933 --> 00:19:33.953
You, I would imagine, maybe all of us know that person who has left a number

00:19:33.953 --> 00:19:35.653
of jobs, never been their fault though.

00:19:35.713 --> 00:19:38.453
It's always that other person didn't appreciate them, or they weren't clear

00:19:38.453 --> 00:19:43.553
about things, but it couldn't have been the person who was having that string

00:19:43.553 --> 00:19:46.933
of those situations happen or burning down every relationship behind them.

00:19:47.293 --> 00:19:51.273
Another one of the beliefs around some of the origin stories of narcissism,

00:19:51.293 --> 00:19:52.513
but again, we're still gonna go with it.

00:19:52.573 --> 00:19:56.013
It is this nature and nurture, but authoritarian parenting.

00:19:56.373 --> 00:19:59.053
And you can think of authoritarian parenting as just this tough,

00:19:59.133 --> 00:20:01.813
no-nonsense approach, where then it is strict rules.

00:20:02.033 --> 00:20:05.193
The rules are everything. Those, they reign supreme.

00:20:06.405 --> 00:20:10.445
Things like warmth and affection and empathy are in very short supply.

00:20:11.145 --> 00:20:16.165
So that is the world where the answer really can just be because I'm the parent, because I said so.

00:20:16.205 --> 00:20:20.385
I mean, that's the law and it's also a form of emotional manipulation because

00:20:20.385 --> 00:20:24.765
it makes kids feel guilty or questioning their own reality, gaslighting,

00:20:24.765 --> 00:20:27.145
when they just even ask a question.

00:20:27.245 --> 00:20:30.445
Well, why can't I do that? And if the parent just says, because I said so,

00:20:30.565 --> 00:20:35.865
then now the kid's going to learn that, okay, okay, there's complete inconsistency in life.

00:20:36.285 --> 00:20:41.085
And the way that I can get out of my discomfort later on is just to say, because I said so.

00:20:41.405 --> 00:20:44.565
And that's the kind of environment that starts to push kids into believing that

00:20:44.565 --> 00:20:49.085
they are never good enough. So then they will overcompensate later in life.

00:20:49.465 --> 00:20:53.405
I had a client once who grew up in a household that was extremely authoritarian,

00:20:53.885 --> 00:20:55.785
and the rules were the rules.

00:20:56.065 --> 00:21:00.225
And he was telling me that for a long time, he felt like, okay,

00:21:00.245 --> 00:21:03.365
the only way he would get praise as if he not only followed the rules,

00:21:03.465 --> 00:21:05.465
but validated these are the most amazing rules ever.

00:21:05.665 --> 00:21:09.285
So that continually fed the parents this, okay, no, we're good.

00:21:09.365 --> 00:21:10.865
We're doing it good that we're this authoritarian.

00:21:11.685 --> 00:21:17.205
Because this guy's parents were so quick to point out flaws and very rarely gave praise.

00:21:17.625 --> 00:21:20.705
And they would use that guilt to control behavior often.

00:21:20.905 --> 00:21:23.885
The point that I think was interesting was this is one of those examples where

00:21:23.885 --> 00:21:27.985
if this guy got an A minus, then it was, well, how can you do better?

00:21:28.105 --> 00:21:31.545
And even sometimes a good parent thinks, but that's how I motivate them,

00:21:31.625 --> 00:21:35.485
but it's a kid. They want to hear that, man, that is some amazing work.

00:21:35.945 --> 00:21:39.265
But instead they get the things like, Hey, look at all we do to sacrifice for you.

00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:43.619
Do you think that I work all day and that I do all that I do so that you can

00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:47.999
bring home an A-minus? That just shows me you don't appreciate me and the work that I'm doing.

00:21:48.479 --> 00:21:51.699
But look at the table that that sets for the rest of their life.

00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:57.159
Doing really, really good is not enough. And so even if they then get the A,

00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:59.259
it's not, oh my gosh, you are amazing.

00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:02.279
At that point, there's probably nothing said because that's the expectation.

00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:05.939
So moving forward in life, there's an expectation of perfection.

00:22:05.939 --> 00:22:09.039
Perfection so then if the person even slightly and

00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:11.919
i'm going to air quote falls short with whatever

00:22:11.919 --> 00:22:14.739
they're doing because again they're just doing and being first time

00:22:14.739 --> 00:22:17.479
them in their life and whatever they're doing as an adult as a kid

00:22:17.479 --> 00:22:21.219
whatever it is you name it but now if they don't do something perfect and don't

00:22:21.219 --> 00:22:25.559
get the praise even in their adulthood then well they must have done something

00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:30.459
wrong or bad so now i need you to praise me i need words of affirmation and

00:22:30.459 --> 00:22:35.279
i need to know that you're okay with me, that you see me,

00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.999
but then it turns out there's a hole in that bucket and the person will never

00:22:39.999 --> 00:22:41.759
quite feel like they are enough, period.

00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:46.819
So, I'll go back to this client. He definitely said, I crave constant validation.

00:22:47.179 --> 00:22:49.139
I am extremely anxiously attached.

00:22:49.679 --> 00:22:52.419
And he would say that to get this validation, this admiration,

00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:54.879
I mean, he would go to extreme lengths.

00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:59.439
He would even felt like exploit relationships or adopt more of this superior

00:22:59.439 --> 00:23:03.879
attitude, but that was to mask these deep seated feelings of unworthiness that

00:23:03.879 --> 00:23:06.959
he had to show up and say, I'm amazing and I need to control you.

00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:10.199
And if you don't see that I'm amazing, I'm probably going to make you subconsciously

00:23:10.199 --> 00:23:13.299
feel bad about it so that then you will show back up and meet my needs.

00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.799
So then he's then basically recreating this push and pull dynamic in his personal

00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:23.299
relationships, swinging between being overly charming and then excessively critical

00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:27.639
and then just mirroring the confusing and critical upbringing that he experienced.

00:23:27.639 --> 00:23:34.139
And then there is another thing that creates the narcissism and the narcissistic

00:23:34.139 --> 00:23:37.099
attachment, and that is simply abuse.

00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.319
And not simply abuse, it is abuse, but just period. Period.

00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.099
Imagine a kid who feels invisible or they're constantly under attack,

00:23:45.379 --> 00:23:48.519
whether it's through neglect or more direct forms of physical,

00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.439
emotional, psychological and sexual abuse.

00:23:51.859 --> 00:23:57.339
You know, that pain, that's that kind of pain is so deep and raw that facing

00:23:57.339 --> 00:23:58.959
it head on just feels impossible.

00:23:59.219 --> 00:24:03.039
And often kids coming out of those situations, it's buried so deep.

00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.659
But man, they can just react.

00:24:05.899 --> 00:24:11.339
That visceral reaction can just become unhinged without them even knowing what's going on.

00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:17.719
And often in childhood, to escape that kind of a reality, they create an imaginary

00:24:17.719 --> 00:24:21.299
world where they're not only just seen, but they are adored.

00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:25.179
And where then they actually wield power and everybody bends to their wheel.

00:24:26.211 --> 00:24:30.691
And everybody bends to their will. I remember another client that growing up,

00:24:30.691 --> 00:24:36.131
she felt absolutely unloved, unwanted, and she would get ignored often.

00:24:36.191 --> 00:24:38.611
And every now and again, there was physical abuse as well.

00:24:38.891 --> 00:24:44.731
So then to her as a kid, the concept of the world just seemed pretty cold and

00:24:44.731 --> 00:24:45.511
definitely unforgiving.

00:24:46.431 --> 00:24:49.571
And forget trust, that was a foreign concept.

00:24:49.771 --> 00:24:54.411
So to cope, then she built this just inner world where everything was different.

00:24:54.411 --> 00:24:57.291
Where she was the star, she was loved by all, she was powerful,

00:24:57.431 --> 00:24:58.211
she was always in control.

00:24:58.811 --> 00:25:02.711
And then as she got older, this became a shield against the world's harshness.

00:25:03.111 --> 00:25:06.871
And so then to keep her dream alive, then she eventually started to act like

00:25:06.871 --> 00:25:10.991
this fantasy was true. So, if somebody tried to get close or see the real her,

00:25:11.191 --> 00:25:13.671
then they were met with aggression or maybe disdain.

00:25:13.991 --> 00:25:16.551
So, her relationships became really superficial.

00:25:17.071 --> 00:25:23.531
And if she tried to allow anybody too close, then they might shatter that illusion

00:25:23.531 --> 00:25:27.251
of perfection and control that she'd developed in her internal world.

00:25:27.251 --> 00:25:31.671
And she said in her eyes, other people really were potential threats to this

00:25:31.671 --> 00:25:36.071
just carefully constructed world where that led her to this life where she felt

00:25:36.071 --> 00:25:38.011
like genuine connection was scarce.

00:25:38.231 --> 00:25:43.751
The fantasy of being untouchable, then it was lonely, but it was pretty necessary. necessary.

00:25:44.151 --> 00:25:46.531
And for her in particular, and I thought this was always fascinating,

00:25:46.711 --> 00:25:48.811
she'd put on a fair amount of weight.

00:25:48.911 --> 00:25:54.031
And she even said that she realized at times that was a protection so that people

00:25:54.031 --> 00:25:56.731
wouldn't even try to get to know the real her.

00:25:56.891 --> 00:26:01.171
So let's now dig into this world of attachment styles and narcissism.

00:26:01.191 --> 00:26:05.431
Getting back to the article, and I'm going to throw a lot of my own thoughts in here as well.

00:26:05.971 --> 00:26:09.871
Because attachment theory is, it's about our deep-seated need to connect with

00:26:09.871 --> 00:26:13.651
others. So from the moment that we're born, the way that we bond with our caregivers,

00:26:13.891 --> 00:26:17.591
that starts to set the stage for how we'll relate to people all throughout our lives.

00:26:17.911 --> 00:26:21.551
And it'll influence everything from our self-esteem, our physical health,

00:26:21.631 --> 00:26:27.251
the more we learn about epigenetics, to our dislikes, our likes, and even our fears.

00:26:27.851 --> 00:26:30.551
And when it comes to understanding narcissism and the reason we

00:26:30.551 --> 00:26:33.671
just laid out the some of those origin stories it's really

00:26:33.671 --> 00:26:36.871
interesting to see how these early bonds or more specifically the

00:26:36.871 --> 00:26:42.231
lack of secure ones can lead to a variety of narcissistic traits but then here's

00:26:42.231 --> 00:26:45.971
where it gets tricky is figuring out the link between narcissism and the attachment

00:26:45.971 --> 00:26:50.271
styles now you can see there are a lot of different variables and so it is like

00:26:50.271 --> 00:26:54.111
solving a complex puzzle and part of that challenge is is that people with grandiose

00:26:54.111 --> 00:26:56.411
narcissism, which we talked a little bit more about in part one,

00:26:56.551 --> 00:27:00.531
they just see themselves in a really positive light. They have to.

00:27:00.931 --> 00:27:07.951
And so it's almost impossible to see them acknowledge that they struggle in their relationships.

00:27:08.431 --> 00:27:11.931
And then if that is what they've been doing for as long as they're doing it,

00:27:11.991 --> 00:27:14.331
if that has become part of their implicit memory or what it feels like to be

00:27:14.331 --> 00:27:18.591
them, then they probably don't even realize how their actions impact others.

00:27:19.031 --> 00:27:21.971
And sometimes people call that the oblivious narcissist.

00:27:23.141 --> 00:27:26.381
And what's really interesting is they will often be the ones that claim that

00:27:26.381 --> 00:27:30.961
they have a secure attachment style, which means, you know, a secure attachment

00:27:30.961 --> 00:27:35.301
style, if that was true, that means that it's somebody who can form healthy relationships.

00:27:36.121 --> 00:27:39.161
So narcissists tend to have a lot of relationship issues.

00:27:39.441 --> 00:27:43.181
So what that contradiction says is that rather than being securely attached,

00:27:43.521 --> 00:27:46.341
they're probably more avoidantly attached.

00:27:46.901 --> 00:27:51.641
And I personally think this is where the, when you dig into emotionally immature people,

00:27:51.641 --> 00:27:54.941
you're seeing more of an anxious attachment but that

00:27:54.941 --> 00:27:58.221
true narcissism would be more avoidant because they can't

00:27:58.221 --> 00:28:01.161
let somebody see them they can't be wrong but they think that

00:28:01.161 --> 00:28:03.961
they are showing up the best version of anybody could in

00:28:03.961 --> 00:28:07.081
a relationship because they're amazing and so then they continually think well

00:28:07.081 --> 00:28:12.761
that's a you issue but then they must discard you if the relationship goes south

00:28:12.761 --> 00:28:17.141
because they are fine they have a secure attachment they feel good about themselves

00:28:17.141 --> 00:28:22.241
but now hopefully you you can see that there it's a concept of,

00:28:22.261 --> 00:28:23.601
I feel good about myself.

00:28:23.861 --> 00:28:27.781
Right guys, right? Right guys looking behind me to all of my internal parts and pieces.

00:28:28.141 --> 00:28:29.861
I wrote down some notes about a

00:28:29.861 --> 00:28:34.121
client who I remember she prided herself absolutely on being independent.

00:28:34.381 --> 00:28:39.061
She was self-sufficient and these traits looked amazing and they were admired by everybody else.

00:28:39.261 --> 00:28:43.581
And she would insist that I did not need anybody, but it, and she projected it.

00:28:43.641 --> 00:28:46.761
I even sat up in my seat as I'm saying this with confidence

00:28:46.761 --> 00:28:50.621
and a sense of security in relationships but it

00:28:50.621 --> 00:28:53.721
was a facade and there was a deep truth underneath there

00:28:53.721 --> 00:28:56.581
that despite her claiming to

00:28:56.581 --> 00:29:01.641
be securely attached I mean she was terrified of intimacy and closeness because

00:29:01.641 --> 00:29:05.421
when she had been in those situations and things got too close or vulnerable

00:29:05.421 --> 00:29:10.301
she found herself subconsciously finding a way to pick apart whoever that was

00:29:10.301 --> 00:29:14.581
that was trying to get to know her so she would push people away before they get too close.

00:29:15.571 --> 00:29:20.811
And so her relationships were, in essence, marked by a pattern of really high

00:29:20.811 --> 00:29:23.731
expectations and then big time disappointments.

00:29:23.931 --> 00:29:26.591
And meanwhile, she's keeping her partners at a distance.

00:29:26.971 --> 00:29:33.571
And then also what that made and also what that did was it made her emotional needs remain unmet.

00:29:33.911 --> 00:29:39.091
But she wasn't willing to take a look at it could be her that's not being vulnerable or open.

00:29:39.351 --> 00:29:43.691
So then that led to her feeling like nobody really loves me or nobody cares and I'm awesome.

00:29:44.311 --> 00:29:48.091
Which that is more of an avoidant attachment style which completely contradicted

00:29:48.091 --> 00:29:53.151
what she self-reported as a secure attachment which just shows that complex relationship between,

00:29:53.771 --> 00:29:56.611
narcissism and attachment in general now we

00:29:56.611 --> 00:30:00.531
talked again about vulnerable narcissism in part one so let's look at that so

00:30:00.531 --> 00:30:03.911
that vulnerable narcissist again they're like those friends who just crave the

00:30:03.911 --> 00:30:07.271
spotlight they need constant reassurance but at the same time they are really

00:30:07.271 --> 00:30:10.911
sensitive to any form of criticism or rejection so it's a lot of passive aggressive

00:30:10.911 --> 00:30:15.091
behavior it's a little bit of of a paradox because they want people to notice and admire them.

00:30:15.271 --> 00:30:19.591
But then the very idea of forming close relationships actually brings on anxiety,

00:30:19.731 --> 00:30:23.531
but then they get rid of that anxiety by gaslighting, by manipulating.

00:30:23.831 --> 00:30:28.391
And that kind of behavior, it really, it's so closely related to what's known

00:30:28.391 --> 00:30:30.091
as a disorganized attachment style.

00:30:30.531 --> 00:30:33.851
And this is the one that I was not as familiar with. Disorganized attachments

00:30:33.851 --> 00:30:36.411
when somebody has a hard time managing their feelings in relationships,

00:30:36.411 --> 00:30:43.451
And it can be highlighted by this swing of wanting to be close and then being really scared of it.

00:30:44.081 --> 00:30:48.361
And that can make their interactions with others really confusing because you

00:30:48.361 --> 00:30:52.081
might find yourself saying, but yeah, doesn't that sound just like anxious attachment?

00:30:52.341 --> 00:30:58.401
Because anxious attachment, that involves a ton of just clinging and seeking

00:30:58.401 --> 00:31:01.301
approval and fearing abandonment. But here's the twist.

00:31:01.481 --> 00:31:05.481
So even though vulnerable narcissists share the anxiety and those approval-seeking

00:31:05.481 --> 00:31:09.841
traits, they don't really fit into the anxious attachment style because their

00:31:09.841 --> 00:31:13.021
anxiety doesn't manifest and clinginess or a fear of being left alone.

00:31:13.721 --> 00:31:17.161
But what it does is it pushes them to avoid relationships altogether to protect

00:31:17.161 --> 00:31:18.301
their fragile self-esteem.

00:31:18.921 --> 00:31:23.501
Real life example, let's just call this person Jamie. They would continually

00:31:23.501 --> 00:31:28.181
fish for compliments and then they would just get so upset over the tiniest hint of criticism.

00:31:28.761 --> 00:31:33.721
And this person posted a lot on social media and it was pretty early on.

00:31:33.801 --> 00:31:36.701
They wanted likes, they wanted validation, but they're not going to respond to comments.

00:31:36.781 --> 00:31:39.761
They're not going to engage in any real conversation. So now they can be angry

00:31:39.761 --> 00:31:44.741
that people didn't necessarily like things or love things, but I'm not going

00:31:44.741 --> 00:31:47.541
to actually do anything about it. I'm not going to engage. I'm not going to self-reflect.

00:31:47.921 --> 00:31:52.101
And so this person, Jamie, they showed up pretty reserved and they would be

00:31:52.101 --> 00:31:54.721
really hesitant to open up to form deeper connections.

00:31:55.301 --> 00:32:00.341
And even though on their online persona seemed to be that that's all they cared about. Yeah.

00:32:00.581 --> 00:32:05.321
Now, Jamie's behavior is it was a pretty classic case of vulnerable narcissism,

00:32:05.321 --> 00:32:07.941
because despite that outward appearance of seeking approval,

00:32:08.261 --> 00:32:12.261
there was no way Jamie was going to get too close to anybody fearing those deeper

00:32:12.261 --> 00:32:14.301
relationships would only lead to judgment and rejection.

00:32:14.761 --> 00:32:21.041
So they're putting out this just disorganized style of connection because it

00:32:21.041 --> 00:32:23.341
was in one sense, validate me, validate me.

00:32:23.461 --> 00:32:27.241
But then if somebody was saying, I will and let's have a conversation,

00:32:27.461 --> 00:32:29.561
then they're going to find fault with not you.

00:32:30.740 --> 00:32:35.680
Who? There isn't anybody that they, but that vulnerable narcissist with this

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:40.960
disorganized attachment style doesn't know this because they don't want to self-reflect

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.040
and see what that's about. They can just put something out there.

00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:46.620
People don't meet those needs. Then if somebody that really desires a connection

00:32:46.620 --> 00:32:49.640
reaches out to them, then they find something wrong with that person,

00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:53.240
but then they will engage with somebody who they can continually manipulate

00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:55.360
this push and pull and push and pull.

00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.240
And that is more in line with disorganized attachment than anxious attachment

00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.740
because when Jamie craves approval, all of a sudden this prospect of real connection

00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:08.580
and that vulnerability that it requires is scary. It's intimidating.

00:33:09.060 --> 00:33:13.300
So that leads to this pattern of avoidance and emotional turmoil and then reaching

00:33:13.300 --> 00:33:16.160
out for validation, but that's not going to work. And then back to avoidance.

00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:19.960
Okay. Stay with me here. I know that we're some 40 minutes in,

00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:23.820
but I really want to get through disorganized attachment style and what that

00:33:23.820 --> 00:33:26.800
looks like with regard to grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.

00:33:26.800 --> 00:33:31.820
And then I will maybe save some of the treatment approaches for maybe that will

00:33:31.820 --> 00:33:32.860
go in a separate episode.

00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:38.100
We won't call it three of two. It will be its own about, because I get asked often, what do you do?

00:33:38.180 --> 00:33:41.620
Are there ways to treat extreme emotional immaturity?

00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:43.860
So there's a preview for coming attractions.

00:33:44.991 --> 00:33:49.271
But the disorganized attachment style, the simple explanation is that disorganized

00:33:49.271 --> 00:33:53.071
attachment and vulnerable narcissist, they share some common ground,

00:33:53.191 --> 00:33:55.971
but they're definitely not the same thing.

00:33:56.131 --> 00:33:58.391
So let's kind of entangle those a little bit.

00:33:58.671 --> 00:34:02.671
So a disorganized attachment, you kind of need to look at it like somebody who

00:34:02.671 --> 00:34:07.271
craves closeness and intimacy, but they're terrified, just absolutely terrified of getting hurt.

00:34:07.971 --> 00:34:10.811
That's disorganized attachment in a nutshell. It's like wanting to jump into

00:34:10.811 --> 00:34:14.491
a pool, being scared of water. Or, I want to go to the amusement park,

00:34:14.571 --> 00:34:15.671
but I absolutely hate rides.

00:34:16.431 --> 00:34:20.591
So, people with that kind of attachment style, they have a shaky sense of self-worth,

00:34:20.651 --> 00:34:22.611
and then they find it hard to trust others.

00:34:22.971 --> 00:34:25.931
So, then their relationship behavior starts to seem pretty contradictory.

00:34:26.171 --> 00:34:29.331
You know, they might pull you close one minute, they kind of push you away the

00:34:29.331 --> 00:34:32.991
next, all because they're wrestling with this internal conflict between a desire

00:34:32.991 --> 00:34:34.391
for connection and a fear of rejection.

00:34:34.391 --> 00:34:38.371
And I will tell you, this is from the Attachment Project website where they're

00:34:38.371 --> 00:34:40.671
talking so much about vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.

00:34:40.771 --> 00:34:44.231
But I know that this starts to sound a little bit borderline because one of

00:34:44.231 --> 00:34:48.891
the best books on borderline is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, which sounds like

00:34:48.891 --> 00:34:50.351
this disorganized attachment style.

00:34:50.351 --> 00:34:53.311
But what we'll talk about real quick is the vulnerable narcissist,

00:34:53.531 --> 00:34:58.691
because they, again, they also fear relationships, and they actually have a

00:34:58.691 --> 00:35:01.291
low view of themselves, similar to those with the disorganized attachment.

00:35:02.691 --> 00:35:06.591
But again, vulnerable narcissist carries a deep-seated belief that they are

00:35:06.591 --> 00:35:09.711
better than you. They are superior. They are entitled.

00:35:10.451 --> 00:35:14.971
And that might be where some of the core differences around borderline come into play.

00:35:15.651 --> 00:35:19.051
Because deep down, that vulnerable narcissist, they still feel like they deserve

00:35:19.051 --> 00:35:23.751
special treatment and that they deserve recognition, even though way deep down

00:35:23.751 --> 00:35:27.371
inside, they feel unworthy and they're afraid of getting close to others.

00:35:27.511 --> 00:35:33.211
But again, they still don't think that they are better and they should just deserve this.

00:35:34.089 --> 00:35:37.649
There's some similarities, both disorganized attachment and vulnerable narcissism.

00:35:37.809 --> 00:35:41.709
They both involve a significant fear of relationships and intimacy,

00:35:41.989 --> 00:35:45.249
feelings of inadequacy, negative self-image, emotional instability,

00:35:45.649 --> 00:35:48.949
because they can swing back and forth between these different moods.

00:35:49.069 --> 00:35:51.729
And there's this tendency to avoid getting too close to others,

00:35:51.809 --> 00:35:54.189
even though there's a longing for connection.

00:35:54.549 --> 00:35:59.149
The differences, even though both stem from troubled early experiences,

00:35:59.249 --> 00:36:03.469
like it could could be abuse or neglect, the key difference lies in the narcissist's

00:36:03.469 --> 00:36:04.769
added layer of entitlement superiority.

00:36:05.349 --> 00:36:09.509
Because disorganized attachment really is more about confusion and inconsistency

00:36:09.509 --> 00:36:11.429
in relationships due to fear and mistrust.

00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:17.049
Vulnerable narcissism includes those fears, but compounded by this underlying

00:36:17.049 --> 00:36:23.229
demand, an absolute need for admiration as, I mean, that's their supply and

00:36:23.229 --> 00:36:25.829
then their continued belief in their special status.

00:36:26.209 --> 00:36:30.089
Let me give you two individuals. We'll call them Jordan and Casey.

00:36:30.409 --> 00:36:33.609
So you got Jordan, who has a disorganized attachment style.

00:36:33.889 --> 00:36:36.989
Jordan struggles in relationships. They go back and forth between wanting to

00:36:36.989 --> 00:36:38.489
be really close to somebody. That's all I want.

00:36:38.609 --> 00:36:41.629
And then all of a sudden, finding every reason in the world to pull away,

00:36:41.729 --> 00:36:44.349
scared of being hurt without really understanding this.

00:36:44.749 --> 00:36:48.909
So then Jordan's actions absolutely confuse people, especially Jordan's partners.

00:36:49.029 --> 00:36:50.569
They can't understand the mixed signals.

00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.649
But Jordan feels like, number one, how can't they get it?

00:36:53.829 --> 00:36:57.229
And two, they're not even aware of what they're doing now yet

00:36:57.229 --> 00:37:01.869
Casey who's the vulnerable narcissist so Casey shows up and it looks like similar

00:37:01.869 --> 00:37:06.069
fears and desires for closeness but they also then expect there's that expectation

00:37:06.069 --> 00:37:10.729
Casey expects their partner to cater to their needs and soothe their insecurities

00:37:10.729 --> 00:37:17.129
without question that is their job and Casey might react get really angry if people withdraw and.

00:37:17.786 --> 00:37:21.586
When those expectations aren't met, but it's not just because of a fear of intimacy,

00:37:21.766 --> 00:37:26.706
but it's a belief, again, that Casey is inherently deserving of special treatment,

00:37:26.826 --> 00:37:30.646
not just being seen, but by being adored and darn near worship.

00:37:31.086 --> 00:37:35.686
So while both Jordan and Casey might struggle with this intimacy dance,

00:37:35.966 --> 00:37:40.386
this dance of connection, Casey's challenges are amplified by this entitlement

00:37:40.386 --> 00:37:44.466
that makes that healthy relationship even more difficult to maintain.

00:37:44.466 --> 00:37:48.846
And that's where I think you can start to see just someone with a disorganized

00:37:48.846 --> 00:37:53.466
attachment, maybe more emotionally immature, but they miss that entitlement

00:37:53.466 --> 00:37:55.166
or that narcissistic piece.

00:37:55.506 --> 00:37:59.246
That's where when somebody says, can one get better?

00:37:59.526 --> 00:38:03.666
And why I go so big on the, if we start from a place of we're emotionally immature,

00:38:03.986 --> 00:38:06.506
then we can start to look at the tools to get better.

00:38:06.506 --> 00:38:11.586
But if there is a deep underlying narcissistic personality disorder,

00:38:11.886 --> 00:38:15.666
then that person, they don't know how to let go of that, but I'm better.

00:38:16.246 --> 00:38:19.526
As long as we can establish that, then we can try to move forward.

00:38:19.606 --> 00:38:22.766
But if I'm always going to be better, I'm actually better than the therapist.

00:38:22.906 --> 00:38:25.046
I'm actually better than the tools. I'm actually better than you.

00:38:25.326 --> 00:38:29.426
They're thinking and saying to their partner. So now let's take a look at avoidant

00:38:29.426 --> 00:38:32.286
attachment style and the grandiose narcissist.

00:38:32.746 --> 00:38:37.546
Because this is where in the article I believe they had, it's a Venn diagram.

00:38:37.666 --> 00:38:39.086
And there's these two circles.

00:38:39.246 --> 00:38:43.846
And you can think of avoidant attachment and grandiose narcissism as those two circles.

00:38:44.086 --> 00:38:48.566
But there's a surprising amount of overlap. lap. So people with an avoidant

00:38:48.566 --> 00:38:52.786
attachment style are like those people who they just seem to be super independent.

00:38:53.046 --> 00:38:57.026
They're keeping people at arm's length. And especially when things start to

00:38:57.026 --> 00:39:00.786
get too real, too intimate, too vulnerable, they become the,

00:39:00.846 --> 00:39:05.866
they look like this cool, detached person that has everything figured out.

00:39:06.246 --> 00:39:09.366
And then just always going to keep things light rather than dive into the deep

00:39:09.366 --> 00:39:11.086
of the emotional conversation pool.

00:39:11.935 --> 00:39:14.935
But that grandiose narcissist, they will take this to another level because

00:39:14.935 --> 00:39:18.055
they don't only keep people at a distance, but then they also mix in a strong

00:39:18.055 --> 00:39:20.155
belief that they're also superior.

00:39:20.715 --> 00:39:26.275
And they hunger for admiration, but it's almost as like they just drive by admiration.

00:39:26.635 --> 00:39:31.175
They just come into your life and then they are telling you all the things that

00:39:31.175 --> 00:39:33.315
make them sound amazing. You may even think they're amazing.

00:39:33.415 --> 00:39:37.375
You may give them the validation until you don't, or it's never going to be enough.

00:39:37.515 --> 00:39:41.975
So then at some point, then they need to move on. I mean, it is like this avoidant

00:39:41.975 --> 00:39:46.515
attachment on steroids, but then this added dash of entitlement and self-importance

00:39:46.515 --> 00:39:50.655
that is coming whenever they want it and will just leave you completely just

00:39:50.655 --> 00:39:52.175
feeling like, I don't even know what just hit me.

00:39:52.655 --> 00:39:56.535
So, the similarities between avoidant attachment and narcissism,

00:39:56.595 --> 00:40:00.495
both people with avoidant attachment and those with grandiose narcissists,

00:40:00.515 --> 00:40:02.495
they do share some traits, distrust in others.

00:40:02.775 --> 00:40:06.215
There's this fundamental lack of trust in other people's intentions and reliability,

00:40:06.455 --> 00:40:10.155
and then really shallow surface-like relationships. They might have a lot of

00:40:10.155 --> 00:40:15.555
acquaintances or even partners, but the connections really don't go below the surface.

00:40:15.715 --> 00:40:18.495
And when you're talking to somebody about this, and let's say we've got the

00:40:18.495 --> 00:40:21.995
pathologically kind person, and they'll even say that we had a great weekend,

00:40:22.055 --> 00:40:23.315
and I'll say, well, what did you guys talk about?

00:40:23.615 --> 00:40:26.255
I don't know, just all kinds of stuff, where we were going to go to dinner,

00:40:26.375 --> 00:40:27.815
what we'd like to do on our hike.

00:40:27.815 --> 00:40:31.315
And it goes back a little bit to that we don't

00:40:31.315 --> 00:40:34.655
know what we don't know about what a true vulnerable emotionally

00:40:34.655 --> 00:40:38.035
connected conversation can look like or also the

00:40:38.035 --> 00:40:40.955
old the absence of bad doesn't mean that the relationship is good

00:40:40.955 --> 00:40:46.395
concept but again what they share the avoidant attachment those with the grandiose

00:40:46.395 --> 00:40:50.875
narcissist also this piece that looks like self-reliance you know independence

00:40:50.875 --> 00:40:55.615
that becomes the whole name of the game and with an emphasis on self-sufficiency

00:40:55.615 --> 00:40:58.175
and then keeping those emotional needs tightly underwrapped.

00:40:58.315 --> 00:41:02.975
So not only are they amazing, but they will do things on their own because you

00:41:02.975 --> 00:41:04.815
couldn't possibly do it as good as they could do it.

00:41:04.875 --> 00:41:08.455
But there's also that just fear of that, okay, if we do it together,

00:41:08.635 --> 00:41:13.335
then I might have to open up myself to the concept of this thing that I've heard

00:41:13.335 --> 00:41:18.215
of being wrong, which the grandiose narcissist is not really familiar with.

00:41:18.715 --> 00:41:22.955
They both also share the concept around a dismissal of the deep connections

00:41:22.955 --> 00:41:27.575
Because there's even a reluctance to acknowledge the value of close intimate relationships.

00:41:27.835 --> 00:41:31.215
What you'll see a lot with avoidant attachment is that they,

00:41:31.355 --> 00:41:35.935
why would I want to cry on your shoulder? I'll just deal with it myself.

00:41:36.335 --> 00:41:40.255
I don't understand why that would help because that isn't what they've done.

00:41:40.415 --> 00:41:43.515
That isn't what they saw modeled. And so then even if they do it,

00:41:43.555 --> 00:41:47.075
it's usually to the person that is more of the anxious attachment in their life,

00:41:47.095 --> 00:41:51.235
who then that person now is like, thank you so much for needing me or letting me see you.

00:41:51.495 --> 00:41:54.875
But the avoidant attachment saying, okay, are we done yet?

00:41:55.375 --> 00:41:57.135
Let me stop patting my back, please.

00:41:58.216 --> 00:42:01.916
But while they share those traits, the avoidant people don't necessarily see

00:42:01.916 --> 00:42:05.936
themselves as better than everybody else or expect constant praise like the

00:42:05.936 --> 00:42:06.956
grandiose narcissist does.

00:42:08.016 --> 00:42:12.236
Their cool distance comes more from a place of self-protection and a preference

00:42:12.236 --> 00:42:15.736
for solitude over the fear of getting hurt rather than this need for admiration.

00:42:16.196 --> 00:42:19.156
Think of somebody that's like the life of a party. They're surrounded by tons

00:42:19.156 --> 00:42:21.516
of people, but they really don't ever get close to anybody.

00:42:21.876 --> 00:42:25.196
They might date casually. They avoid any talk of getting serious.

00:42:25.196 --> 00:42:29.416
And this is, side note, this is where the concept of ghosting people comes in often.

00:42:29.556 --> 00:42:34.176
They will, this type of person often ghost partners when they seem not to be too invested.

00:42:34.696 --> 00:42:38.236
And then they can tell themselves, I don't need anybody. And then boast about

00:42:38.236 --> 00:42:39.756
their independence, their self-reliance.

00:42:40.696 --> 00:42:45.076
But again, that's not about a feeling of superiority or craving admiration.

00:42:45.196 --> 00:42:49.236
It's more about a deep-seated distrust and a fear of being vulnerable in this

00:42:49.236 --> 00:42:52.616
particular instance. You know, this person's approach to relationships was more

00:42:52.616 --> 00:42:54.456
of a defense mechanism or this

00:42:54.456 --> 00:42:58.416
way to avoid the potential pain of being emotionally open or intimate.

00:42:58.756 --> 00:43:02.736
And that kind of behavior, it mirrors the avoidant attachment style because

00:43:02.736 --> 00:43:06.616
there's this emphasis on independence and superficial connections showing how

00:43:06.616 --> 00:43:10.736
it can resemble aspects of narcissism without fully embracing the narcissist

00:43:10.736 --> 00:43:12.156
need for admiration and entitlement.

00:43:12.416 --> 00:43:15.276
So I hope you can see these crossover points, this Venn diagram,

00:43:15.416 --> 00:43:20.416
avoidant and grandiose narcissist. And there's just a lot of that area that

00:43:20.416 --> 00:43:21.636
overlaps. It seems to be similar.

00:43:22.016 --> 00:43:27.356
Let's talk about the differences now between avoidant attachment and a grandiose

00:43:27.356 --> 00:43:30.396
narcissist, because while they might share some common ground,

00:43:30.636 --> 00:43:34.616
they are coming from extremely different places.

00:43:34.616 --> 00:43:39.776
So, let me go back through that list and break down those things a little bit in more detail.

00:43:39.996 --> 00:43:42.136
That concept of extreme dismissal.

00:43:42.436 --> 00:43:47.116
When a grandiose narcissist dismisses somebody, they take it to a whole other level.

00:43:47.316 --> 00:43:52.236
They don't just keep people at a distance. They then view people as lesser beings,

00:43:52.456 --> 00:43:53.996
in essence, as this low status.

00:43:54.456 --> 00:43:59.116
They are primarily there to shower the narcissist with praise and then meet their needs.

00:43:59.536 --> 00:44:03.116
And it's not just about avoiding closeness for the grandiose narcissist.

00:44:03.116 --> 00:44:07.916
It's about exploiting relationships just purely for their own gain without any

00:44:07.916 --> 00:44:10.356
regard really for the other person's feelings or even dignity.

00:44:11.359 --> 00:44:15.719
The avoidant attachment, on the flip side, those with avoidant attachment might

00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:19.939
dodge these deep connections and intimacy, but they're not out to use other people.

00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:25.739
Their standoffish behavior, it comes from learned belief that other people can't

00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:27.199
be counted on for emotional support.

00:44:27.779 --> 00:44:31.899
And that belief comes from childhood marked by emotional coldness,

00:44:31.959 --> 00:44:35.359
a lack of affection, a lack of availability from a parent, which then leads

00:44:35.359 --> 00:44:38.519
them to turn off their expectations of emotional closeness from other people.

00:44:39.099 --> 00:44:42.859
So if you look at the roots of the behavior, the avoidant attachment often grows

00:44:42.859 --> 00:44:46.839
from a place of neglect or emotional unavailability from their caregivers.

00:44:47.319 --> 00:44:50.419
And kids in those environments learn early on that if I show emotions,

00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:51.399
I'm not going to get them met.

00:44:51.779 --> 00:44:54.799
I'm not going to get the love or the support that I crave. So they start to

00:44:54.799 --> 00:44:56.099
suppress their need for closeness.

00:44:57.299 --> 00:45:01.119
Now, narcissism, that's more about building a fortress of self-importance.

00:45:01.479 --> 00:45:05.379
That turns out to be a way to block out feelings of being unlovable or inadequate. inadequate.

00:45:05.819 --> 00:45:10.979
And that's the defense mechanism that then you can just boost up by arrogance and hostility.

00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:16.419
But it is such a different thing. It is a far cry from the avoidance,

00:45:16.419 --> 00:45:18.079
more passive approach to self-protection.

00:45:18.579 --> 00:45:23.139
And then if we look back at the concept of being overindulgent versus emotional

00:45:23.139 --> 00:45:27.219
neglect, that's another big difference. And that lies in how these traits develop.

00:45:27.439 --> 00:45:31.479
Narcissism can also be the result of being overly pampered and not having to

00:45:31.479 --> 00:45:34.899
face any boundaries or consequences, which then leads to unrealistic expectations

00:45:34.899 --> 00:45:37.799
of special treatment in all their relationships.

00:45:38.019 --> 00:45:41.299
That avoidant attachment, though, that's more about getting used to having one's

00:45:41.299 --> 00:45:44.659
emotional needs overlooked or just outright rejected, not indulged.

00:45:44.839 --> 00:45:48.399
Okay, stay with me here. I know that we're some 40 minutes in,

00:45:48.479 --> 00:45:52.239
but I really want to get through disorganized attachment style and what that

00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.219
looks like with regard to grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.

00:45:55.379 --> 00:46:00.239
And then I will maybe save some of the treatment approaches for maybe that will

00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:01.259
go in a separate episode.

00:46:01.399 --> 00:46:06.519
We won't call it three of two. It will be its own about, because I get asked often, what do you do?

00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:10.059
Are there ways to treat extreme emotional immaturity?

00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:12.279
So there's a preview for coming attractions.

00:46:13.412 --> 00:46:17.692
But the disorganized attachment style, the simple explanation is that disorganized

00:46:17.692 --> 00:46:21.492
attachment and vulnerable narcissist, they share some common ground,

00:46:21.612 --> 00:46:24.392
but they're definitely not the same thing.

00:46:24.552 --> 00:46:26.812
So let's kind of untangle those a little bit.

00:46:27.112 --> 00:46:31.072
So a disorganized attachment, you kind of need to look at it like somebody who

00:46:31.072 --> 00:46:35.692
craves closeness and intimacy, but they're terrified, just absolutely terrified of getting hurt.

00:46:36.432 --> 00:46:39.292
That's disorganized attachment in a nutshell. It's kind of like wanting to jump

00:46:39.292 --> 00:46:43.092
into a pool, being scared of water, or I want to go to to the amusement park,

00:46:43.192 --> 00:46:44.292
but I absolutely hate rides.

00:46:45.012 --> 00:46:49.152
So people with that kind of attachment style, they have a shaky sense of self-worth

00:46:49.152 --> 00:46:51.212
and then they find it hard to trust others.

00:46:51.532 --> 00:46:54.572
So then their relationship behavior starts to seem pretty contradictory.

00:46:54.752 --> 00:46:57.792
They might pull you close one minute, they push you away the next,

00:46:57.892 --> 00:47:01.472
all because they're wrestling with this internal conflict between a desire for

00:47:01.472 --> 00:47:02.632
connection and a fear of rejection.

00:47:02.972 --> 00:47:06.632
And I will tell you, this is from the Attachment Project website where they're

00:47:06.632 --> 00:47:08.912
talking so much about vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.

00:47:09.032 --> 00:47:12.472
But I know that this starts to sound a little bit borderline because one of

00:47:12.472 --> 00:47:17.152
the best books on borderline is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, which sounds like

00:47:17.152 --> 00:47:18.612
this disorganized attachment style.

00:47:18.872 --> 00:47:21.572
But what we'll talk about real quick is the vulnerable narcissist,

00:47:21.772 --> 00:47:27.072
because they, again, they also fear relationships and they actually have a low

00:47:27.072 --> 00:47:29.572
view of themselves, similar to those with the disorganized attachment.

00:47:30.292 --> 00:47:34.872
But again, vulnerable narcissist carries a deep seed of a belief that they are

00:47:34.872 --> 00:47:37.932
better than you. They are superior. They are entitled.

00:47:38.672 --> 00:47:43.172
And that might be where some of the core differences around borderline come into play.

00:47:44.074 --> 00:47:47.314
Because deep down, that vulnerable narcissist, they still feel like they deserve

00:47:47.314 --> 00:47:52.014
special treatment and that they deserve recognition, even though way deep down

00:47:52.014 --> 00:47:55.594
inside, they feel unworthy and they're afraid of getting close to others.

00:47:55.754 --> 00:48:01.714
But again, they still don't think that they are better and they should just deserve this.

00:48:02.294 --> 00:48:06.174
There's some similarities, both disorganized attachment and vulnerable narcissism.

00:48:06.274 --> 00:48:10.214
They both involve a significant fear of relationships and intimacy,

00:48:10.494 --> 00:48:13.734
feelings of inadequacy, negative self-image, emotional instability,

00:48:14.154 --> 00:48:17.474
because they can swing back and forth between these different moods.

00:48:17.594 --> 00:48:20.234
And there's this tendency to avoid getting too close to others,

00:48:20.314 --> 00:48:22.694
even though there's a longing for connection.

00:48:23.074 --> 00:48:27.654
The differences, even though both stem from troubled early experiences,

00:48:27.754 --> 00:48:31.774
like it could be abuse or neglect, the key difference lies in the narcissist

00:48:31.774 --> 00:48:33.234
added layer of entitlement superiority.

00:48:33.974 --> 00:48:37.994
Because disorganized attachment really is more about confusion and inconsistency

00:48:37.994 --> 00:48:39.954
in relationships due to fear and mistrust.

00:48:40.514 --> 00:48:45.554
Vulnerable narcissism, includes those fears, but compounded by this underlying

00:48:45.554 --> 00:48:50.994
demand, an absolute need for admiration as that's their supply.

00:48:51.074 --> 00:48:54.174
And then there's their continued belief in their special status.

00:48:54.614 --> 00:48:58.434
Let me give you two individuals. We'll call them Jordan and Casey.

00:48:58.654 --> 00:49:01.934
So you got Jordan, who has a disorganized attachment style.

00:49:02.134 --> 00:49:05.314
Jordan struggles in relationships. They go back and forth between wanting to

00:49:05.314 --> 00:49:06.794
be really close to somebody. That's all I want.

00:49:06.914 --> 00:49:09.914
And then all of a sudden finding every reason in the world to pull away,

00:49:10.054 --> 00:49:12.674
scared of being hurt without really understanding this.

00:49:12.974 --> 00:49:17.214
So then Jordan's actions absolutely confuse people, especially Jordan's partners.

00:49:17.274 --> 00:49:18.894
They can't understand the mixed signals.

00:49:19.114 --> 00:49:23.014
But Jordan feels like, number one, how can't they get it? And two,

00:49:23.274 --> 00:49:24.474
they're not even aware of what they're doing.

00:49:25.232 --> 00:49:29.412
Now you got Casey, who's the vulnerable narcissist. So Casey shows up and it

00:49:29.412 --> 00:49:33.232
looks like similar fears and desires for closeness, but they also then expect.

00:49:33.492 --> 00:49:34.372
There's that expectation.

00:49:34.992 --> 00:49:39.032
Casey expects their partner to cater to their needs and soothe their insecurities

00:49:39.032 --> 00:49:40.892
without question. That is their job.

00:49:41.252 --> 00:49:47.932
And Casey might react, get really angry if people withdraw when those expectations aren't met.

00:49:48.012 --> 00:49:50.812
But it's not just because of a fear of intimacy, but it's a belief,

00:49:50.872 --> 00:49:55.012
again, that Casey is inherently deserving of special treatment.

00:49:55.232 --> 00:49:58.972
Not just being seen, but by being adored and darn near worship.

00:49:59.432 --> 00:50:03.992
So, while both Jordan and Casey might struggle with this intimacy dance,

00:50:04.272 --> 00:50:08.712
this dance of connection, Casey's challenges are amplified by this entitlement

00:50:08.712 --> 00:50:12.772
that makes that healthy relationship even more difficult to maintain.

00:50:13.032 --> 00:50:17.152
And that's where I think you can start to see just someone with a disorganized

00:50:17.152 --> 00:50:21.792
attachment, maybe more emotionally immature, but they miss that entitlement

00:50:21.792 --> 00:50:27.772
or that narcissistic piece, space that that's where when somebody says, can one get better?

00:50:28.092 --> 00:50:31.232
And why I go so big on the, if we start from a place of it's emotion,

00:50:31.252 --> 00:50:35.032
we're emotionally immature, then we can start to look at the tools to get better.

00:50:35.252 --> 00:50:40.112
But if there is a deep underlying narcissistic personality disorder,

00:50:40.352 --> 00:50:44.152
then that person, they don't know how to let go of that, but I'm better.

00:50:44.830 --> 00:50:48.270
As long as we can establish that, then we can try to move forward.

00:50:48.350 --> 00:50:51.490
But if I'm always going to be better, I'm actually better than the therapist.

00:50:51.610 --> 00:50:53.790
I'm actually better than the tools. I'm actually better than you.

00:50:53.970 --> 00:50:55.690
They're thinking and saying to their partner.

00:50:56.370 --> 00:51:00.770
Okay, so let's wrap things up here. And I will just speak so briefly on the

00:51:00.770 --> 00:51:05.790
concept of treatment because this goes back to that attachmentproject.com that

00:51:05.790 --> 00:51:08.410
treating narcissism is a challenge.

00:51:08.630 --> 00:51:11.530
Because not the very least, because those with grandiose traits,

00:51:11.750 --> 00:51:14.790
they don't see any problem with their behavior. Good luck getting them into therapy.

00:51:14.870 --> 00:51:17.490
Or if they do, it's for one session and then the therapist is dumb.

00:51:17.630 --> 00:51:22.590
And sure, you can go to therapy, but that's a you thing is what the grandiose narcissist is saying.

00:51:23.090 --> 00:51:26.150
Vulnerable narcissists, they've got this hidden sense of superiority.

00:51:26.470 --> 00:51:29.530
They can be even trickier to identify and treat effectively.

00:51:29.530 --> 00:51:34.430
And the risk of misdiagnosis there is so real because that can really lead to

00:51:34.430 --> 00:51:38.110
even just more validation for the vulnerable narcissist because if they show

00:51:38.110 --> 00:51:41.310
up and play the game the right way and the therapist isn't aware,

00:51:41.570 --> 00:51:46.490
then the therapist can continue to validate them, not just not agree with them,

00:51:46.510 --> 00:51:51.070
but validate them, which gives them more fuel to the fire and can make couples counseling.

00:51:51.070 --> 00:51:54.290
I think it's contraindicated. It's counterintuitive. It doesn't work.

00:51:54.850 --> 00:51:58.910
But focusing on self-reflection, understanding the roots of somebody's behavior,

00:51:59.450 --> 00:52:03.270
especially through this prism of attachment theory, that's where you can look

00:52:03.270 --> 00:52:05.970
at this as what could be a game changer if somebody is willing to,

00:52:06.010 --> 00:52:09.150
let's say they're just emotionally immature, if they're really emotionally mature,

00:52:09.230 --> 00:52:10.250
if they're somewhere on that spectrum.

00:52:10.710 --> 00:52:15.350
And if you can start to look at, okay, I can identify maybe my attachment style,

00:52:15.790 --> 00:52:18.910
and then I can go look at where that attachment style comes from.

00:52:18.910 --> 00:52:22.770
Then maybe there's a chance that there can be some growth there if that person

00:52:22.770 --> 00:52:25.590
is willing to do the growth and sit with a lot of discomfort.

00:52:26.210 --> 00:52:30.410
Because the link between narcissistic personality traits and attachment styles,

00:52:30.570 --> 00:52:32.430
as you can see, it's tricky. It's intricate.

00:52:32.730 --> 00:52:35.630
It's perplexing. It doesn't always follow the same pattern.

00:52:36.130 --> 00:52:41.310
Because just that world of narcissism, it reflects a deep-seated difficulty

00:52:41.310 --> 00:52:45.910
in how somebody relates to others, but really how they even relate to themselves.

00:52:46.150 --> 00:52:48.670
They put out this mask and need everybody else to validate it,

00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:50.290
but it changes in a moment.

00:52:50.670 --> 00:52:55.010
And figuring out your attachment style and then how you show up being more consistent

00:52:55.010 --> 00:52:58.550
to get to this place of secure attachment, I mean, that's central to attachment theory.

00:52:59.230 --> 00:53:04.490
So, it's really clear that insecure attachment plays a role or it can play a

00:53:04.490 --> 00:53:07.970
role in the development of narcissistic traits, but it's just a tiny,

00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:09.850
well, not tiny, it's a piece of the puzzle.

00:53:10.310 --> 00:53:15.910
You still have genetics, personality, environmental factors that they all contribute to this.

00:53:16.717 --> 00:53:22.057
Complex condition. So then understanding narcissism, emotional immaturity,

00:53:22.237 --> 00:53:27.197
it still does require a bit of a personalized approach because recognizing that

00:53:27.197 --> 00:53:30.877
everybody's individual journey in and out of narcissistic patterns,

00:53:30.957 --> 00:53:32.777
where they fall on that spectrum is unique.

00:53:33.257 --> 00:53:37.497
And if you just focus on the underlying attachment issues, I mean,

00:53:37.497 --> 00:53:41.497
and you foster maybe this greater capacity for self-reflection and empathy.

00:53:41.677 --> 00:53:45.117
And I'm pretty much talking now to you, hopefully fully therapists that maybe

00:53:45.117 --> 00:53:49.517
get a chance to see one in your office, therapy can offer a path to healthier

00:53:49.517 --> 00:53:53.817
relationships and a more integrated sense of self. But it's just the beginning.

00:53:54.137 --> 00:53:59.797
I took some notes down very quickly about what integrating my beloved acceptance

00:53:59.797 --> 00:54:04.197
and commitment therapy would look like to treat somebody who has narcissistic traits.

00:54:04.517 --> 00:54:11.997
And I feel like there's a place to work from there because ACT focuses on psychological

00:54:11.997 --> 00:54:16.397
flexibility, Which is, it's meaning to get out of those just rigid thinking patterns.

00:54:16.777 --> 00:54:20.857
And that can be really beneficial for addressing those rigid patterns of thinking

00:54:20.857 --> 00:54:23.437
and behavior often seen with extreme emotional immaturity.

00:54:23.717 --> 00:54:27.617
So, just quickly, there's these six principles of ACT, and I'll just run through

00:54:27.617 --> 00:54:32.017
what those would look like in theory, if you were using ACT to help somebody

00:54:32.017 --> 00:54:34.697
that is trying to overcome their extreme emotional immaturity.

00:54:34.697 --> 00:54:37.877
The first principle is acceptance.

00:54:38.157 --> 00:54:41.417
I mean, in developing acceptance for people with, and we're just going to stay

00:54:41.417 --> 00:54:44.777
on the emotionally immature or narcissistic trait side of the spectrum,

00:54:44.957 --> 00:54:47.257
acknowledging vulnerability or flaws,

00:54:47.457 --> 00:54:51.197
it can be a real challenge because of their fragile self-esteem,

00:54:51.317 --> 00:54:57.197
where they take every criticism as, I now have to burn the village down to show you how wrong you are.

00:54:57.197 --> 00:55:01.657
Because ACT encourages acceptance of all thoughts and feelings,

00:55:01.737 --> 00:55:03.897
including those that are uncomfortable, those that are painful.

00:55:04.317 --> 00:55:08.297
I'm just thinking, I'm just, that's a feeling, that's a thought because we have so many of them.

00:55:08.759 --> 00:55:13.199
But we attach to these ones of I must be better than, or you don't understand me.

00:55:13.359 --> 00:55:18.039
So that process, in theory, could help somebody with emotional immaturity start

00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:22.059
to learn to accept their vulnerabilities without resorting to denial or defensiveness.

00:55:22.219 --> 00:55:24.939
But hey, check this out, this is how I'm thinking, this is how I'm feeling.

00:55:24.939 --> 00:55:29.579
So, in the therapy role, you might start to help somebody recognize and just

00:55:29.579 --> 00:55:34.259
accept feelings of inadequacy or feelings of rejection or even feelings of needing

00:55:34.259 --> 00:55:38.679
to be better without immediately trying to attach to them, hook to them,

00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:39.939
that they are just thoughts and feelings.

00:55:40.339 --> 00:55:43.099
That leads to the second concept of ACT is cognitive diffusion.

00:55:44.099 --> 00:55:48.659
Emotionally immature, they just often get caught up in their thoughts,

00:55:48.779 --> 00:55:52.099
especially those that reinforce their whole sense of superiority or entitlement.

00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:54.659
They fuse with those thoughts.

00:55:55.359 --> 00:55:58.399
Cognitive diffusion helps people step back from their thoughts and see them

00:55:58.399 --> 00:56:01.979
just as thoughts. I'm noticing that I am feeling, not I feel, I am.

00:56:02.479 --> 00:56:07.099
They are not absolute truths. So that can reduce the impact and help the person

00:56:07.099 --> 00:56:10.139
get a much more realistic perspective on themselves and their relationships

00:56:10.139 --> 00:56:11.359
by being able to step back.

00:56:11.839 --> 00:56:14.579
You know, when an emotionally mature person starts to ruminate on thoughts like

00:56:14.579 --> 00:56:18.079
I must be admired, first of all, you have to have an acceptance of that is a thought.

00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.539
And if I can then diffuse from it, then I might see it as just a thought,

00:56:21.539 --> 00:56:25.319
man, I'm noticing that I am needing to be admired right now. What is that about?

00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:28.979
It's maybe the way I'm getting rid of discomfort, or it's what I do when I am

00:56:28.979 --> 00:56:31.159
in a close relationship with somebody.

00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:35.079
The third principle of ACT is it's about being present, being in the here and

00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:40.199
now, because emotional immaturity can involve a preoccupation with slights and

00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:46.359
things that happened in the past, or looking into the future of fantasies of success,

00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:50.899
admiration, commemoration, an act really emphasizes the importance of being present.

00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:54.479
What happened in the past, it totally did happen. What might happen in the future,

00:56:54.619 --> 00:56:58.199
maybe it could, but you really can only live in the right here,

00:56:58.299 --> 00:57:01.019
right now, which is why it's so important to recognize thoughts and feelings

00:57:01.019 --> 00:57:04.939
and emotions and be able to recognize them that they are not, I am not them.

00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:07.939
I am not angry. I am not bad.

00:57:08.839 --> 00:57:14.119
I am noticing my anger. I am noticing that I am feeling bad.

00:57:14.819 --> 00:57:18.299
So, then you can get back into that present moment, which can help individuals

00:57:18.299 --> 00:57:23.299
with emotional immaturity focus less on these preoccupations with the things

00:57:23.299 --> 00:57:28.119
done wrong and the, well, someday I'll be, but they can be in the here and now.

00:57:28.279 --> 00:57:31.939
And that is done through things like my beloved mindfulness.

00:57:32.179 --> 00:57:35.959
Mindfulness exercises help you focus on the here and now. Building in the pause,

00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:42.339
that is so, so necessary to be able to pause, to be able to even notice these thoughts and feelings.

00:57:43.130 --> 00:57:46.330
Because then that will help you get right into the moment now and take action

00:57:46.330 --> 00:57:48.330
on things that matter to you, not on controlling others.

00:57:48.670 --> 00:57:52.930
The fourth principle of ACT, self is context. ACT helps you understand that

00:57:52.930 --> 00:57:57.610
you are more than your thoughts and feelings, that there is a self that is constant

00:57:57.610 --> 00:57:59.650
and continuous, regardless of changing experience.

00:58:00.030 --> 00:58:03.170
And as we can develop that sense of self, again, the emotionally mature,

00:58:03.350 --> 00:58:04.790
they operate from a false self.

00:58:04.990 --> 00:58:08.870
They're trying to figure out what self do I need to be to take the one-up position

00:58:08.870 --> 00:58:12.890
in any given situation. situation, what we want to do is be able to recognize

00:58:12.890 --> 00:58:15.170
our deep inherent worth.

00:58:15.370 --> 00:58:20.110
It is there, even if you didn't see that as a child. You are of worth. You are lovable.

00:58:20.270 --> 00:58:23.150
You are loved. You have all the things that you need within you.

00:58:23.290 --> 00:58:27.170
It's a matter of finding those things as you go about life and go through experiences.

00:58:27.410 --> 00:58:30.850
And the way that happens is by feeling safe, feeling seen, heard,

00:58:30.950 --> 00:58:34.250
understood, and then developing that secure attachment, hopefully with yourself,

00:58:34.250 --> 00:58:37.790
self, but then also ideally with another human being.

00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:42.790
Because that self as context can help somebody with emotional immaturity see

00:58:42.790 --> 00:58:47.490
beyond their immediate self concept that is tied to superiority, tied to entitlement.

00:58:47.790 --> 00:58:51.310
So then if you go through a lot of these exercises that might explore the concept

00:58:51.310 --> 00:58:55.970
of self, then an individual might start to identify and connect with different aspects of themselves,

00:58:56.210 --> 00:59:00.070
what actually matters to them and that it is that they are allowed to think

00:59:00.070 --> 00:59:02.810
and feel and be beyond their emotionally mature traits.

00:59:03.070 --> 00:59:07.170
And again, they can learn things more like capacity for empathy or cooperation

00:59:07.170 --> 00:59:10.690
and notice the desire to take over, control, to withdraw.

00:59:11.210 --> 00:59:15.630
And that leads to one of the most important things, values. Values, clarification.

00:59:16.630 --> 00:59:20.210
Narcissistic and emotionally mature behaviors are often driven by these underlying

00:59:20.210 --> 00:59:24.350
needs for admiration and validation rather than true personal values.

00:59:24.630 --> 00:59:29.130
So, with ACT, you really try to clarify what is genuinely important and meaningful to the individual.

00:59:29.250 --> 00:59:32.570
So you can see that if you can peel back enough layers, what really is important

00:59:32.570 --> 00:59:37.010
to you? And if the person's saying, well, I just want people to understand that I'm a good person.

00:59:37.330 --> 00:59:41.870
It's like, okay, so actually that's me saying, I need others to tell me I'm a good person.

00:59:42.050 --> 00:59:44.430
What do we do to get you to start to feel like a good person?

00:59:44.530 --> 00:59:48.090
What are things that you might like to do? What are the states of doing and being?

00:59:48.930 --> 00:59:52.190
And that can start to help somebody shift their focus from seeking external

00:59:52.190 --> 00:59:57.630
validation to starting to do, pursue more fulfilling value-based actions.

00:59:58.190 --> 01:00:01.530
So as a therapist, you might work with that person to start to identify core

01:00:01.530 --> 01:00:04.670
values, such as connection, growth, curiosity, adventure.

01:00:04.930 --> 01:00:08.050
And you can start to explore those and how those can guide your actions,

01:00:08.130 --> 01:00:08.970
interactions with others.

01:00:09.070 --> 01:00:12.610
And it will feel uncomfortable because sometimes that person,

01:00:12.670 --> 01:00:15.910
the narcissist, the emotionally mature, I would say they need another human

01:00:15.910 --> 01:00:17.490
to interact with, to know that they exist.

01:00:17.670 --> 01:00:21.070
So they have to start learning to exist as their self and giving themselves

01:00:21.070 --> 01:00:22.610
love and praise. Thank you.

01:00:23.109 --> 01:00:27.449
And then the last principle of ACT is committed action. So ACT encourages setting

01:00:27.449 --> 01:00:31.129
of goals based on your values, though, and taking concrete steps toward the

01:00:31.129 --> 01:00:33.549
goals and then introducing this concept of psychological flexibility,

01:00:33.669 --> 01:00:35.849
because it is not that rigid or black or white.

01:00:35.929 --> 01:00:39.069
You just have to start working toward the goal based on a value.

01:00:39.149 --> 01:00:42.589
And you may find that that isn't even the most, the biggest value that you have.

01:00:42.649 --> 01:00:43.769
You'll learn more along the way.

01:00:43.929 --> 01:00:46.469
So for somebody with narcissistic traits, emotionally immature,

01:00:46.829 --> 01:00:51.029
that means you're engaging in behaviors that promote genuine connection with

01:00:51.029 --> 01:00:53.949
others based off of real life experience and maybe shared values,

01:00:54.209 --> 01:00:59.889
which can open you up to the possibility of empathy and in connection with others,

01:01:00.009 --> 01:01:05.029
rather than those that seek to reinforce their sense of superiority by just

01:01:05.029 --> 01:01:09.069
taking over any given moment and thinking that they are the best,

01:01:09.169 --> 01:01:10.669
even if they don't even know what they're talking about.

01:01:11.349 --> 01:01:15.849
So, the example there was the person might commit to an act of kindness if they're

01:01:15.849 --> 01:01:18.729
going to try to nurture a value of kindness without expecting anything in return,

01:01:18.869 --> 01:01:22.029
which is going going to feel uncomfortable or starting to learn to listen actively

01:01:22.029 --> 01:01:24.809
to other people, but not turn the conversation back to themselves,

01:01:25.049 --> 01:01:28.249
which is something I've definitely had to work on as I just did it right there.

01:01:28.329 --> 01:01:29.789
Let me tell you about what I've had to work on.

01:01:30.269 --> 01:01:33.749
So by focusing on these principles of act, somebody with emotional immaturity,

01:01:33.969 --> 01:01:37.249
you could see how they, it could help them move toward a more flexible.

01:01:38.769 --> 01:01:43.149
Accepting, authentic, and fulfilling way of relating to themselves and why that's so important,

01:01:43.649 --> 01:01:46.429
so that then they could show up and be

01:01:46.429 --> 01:01:49.089
curious about other people right now if they

01:01:49.089 --> 01:01:51.949
if they feign curiosity and so that you will express

01:01:51.949 --> 01:01:54.809
something so then they can tell you how dumb that is or how

01:01:54.809 --> 01:01:58.589
much better they are than you that's not genuine curiosity okay if

01:01:58.589 --> 01:02:01.429
you are still here with me i wish i could give you take a virtual

01:02:01.429 --> 01:02:05.689
trophy today that's uh you've earned it you've earned the gold sticker the sucker

01:02:05.689 --> 01:02:08.609
if i had one in my office but i appreciate you being here if you have questions

01:02:08.609 --> 01:02:13.109
thoughts comments your stories please reach out to me i get them every And I'll

01:02:13.109 --> 01:02:16.669
read them and we've got some things in place to be able to hopefully address

01:02:16.669 --> 01:02:19.009
those better and in a quicker timeframe.

01:02:19.229 --> 01:02:21.569
But I appreciate you. I appreciate the support of the podcast.

01:02:21.729 --> 01:02:26.789
It blows my mind every time I do see numbers that it's far surpassed my virtual

01:02:26.789 --> 01:02:30.189
couch podcast, which that far surpassed anything I ever thought that I could

01:02:30.189 --> 01:02:32.249
put out there and my hope of helping.

01:02:32.569 --> 01:02:36.829
Have an amazing week and I will see you next time on Waking Up the Nerd.

01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:42.808
Music.