Music.
Episode 110 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host, Tony Overbay,
a licensed marriage and family therapist, and let's dive right in.
So imagine that you are a little kid again, and you've got somebody who is there
to look out for you. This is your superhero.
They may not have a cape, and this superhero, this is your cheerleader.
This is your number one hype man, and they were incredible.
And they sit with you, and they try to understand you. They're so curious about you.
They're so invested you just feel alive when you're
around them so sure you're still going to have your ups and downs because
you're a little kid but this person they're pretty
consistent and they've been doing this ever since you can remember as long as
you are alive and let's face it you as a little kid you can kind of be a handful
but this person this superhero they just seem to be a safe place because they're
just overall vibe their energy everything just felt It felt good. It felt safe.
They were there to give you a hug when you scraped your knee.
They were there to calm you down if there was a thunder or lightning outside.
And back to the superpower, it's like they had this power to just make you feel
safe and just snug whenever they walked into the room or whenever you happened upon them.
And they would talk to you in the language of emotions and they were always
tuning in to what you needed as you grew.
And we can be super honest. Nobody is perfect. Not even our superhero hype man.
They couldn't possibly catch every single little signal that you were sending
out, especially not 24 hours a day and seven days a week. And that's absolutely fine.
But what mattered was that they kept on trying and they kept on tuning in.
So even if they missed the mark, they didn't throw in the towel.
You didn't see them just get all upset and flustered with themselves.
They stayed in the game. They apologized for things. They continued to check
in and they started to be pretty pretty emotionally consistent.
And they just made sure that that connection stayed strong.
And then thanks to this rock solid bond, you got to grow up feeling good about yourself.
You were ready to trust others. And so then even when things got a bit rocky
in your own world, even if your superhero hype man wasn't there,
you could handle it. You could give yourself a little bit of grace.
So that is the magic of having a secure attachment.
And our hope is that that that's going to be something that we have with our parent.
Now, I still go back to the fact that this is stuff that we're just now starting to figure out.
And you can see that even the best parent is still going to have all of their own things going on.
And so they, if they don't know what they don't know, they may not be able to
provide that secure attachment.
And you might not have had that growing up. But I think it's so important to
point out what a secure attachment can look like, especially to your kids.
So if you're not currently able to be present in their their life,
then you may be missing out on this amazing opportunity to provide this secure attachment.
Because our kids, and this is what we wanted, was somebody that we could count on.
Somebody who at the time, especially when you were a kid, you didn't even really
know that they must have been having to do their own work to be able to continue
to show up consistently because you had no clue that they had all of their own
challenges of life going on.
But for you as a kid, it's like having that invisible safety net that lets you
leap out into life and you're pretty confident because you're going to land in the safety net.
And as a matter of fact, this parent, the secure attachment,
this number one hype man is going to be the one that's going to help you get
off of that net and then say, man, what was that like?
So I want to dig a little bit deeper today into the whole idea of a secure attachment.
But this time we are going to look at how it plays out when you are all grown
up and navigating the world of adult relationships.
Relationships so having a secure attachment style is kind
of like having a superpower in your relationship now as
an adult you can try to have that secure attachment
as you show up in your relationship and it doesn't mean that you become mr or
mrs perfect far from it you're still human and of course you're going to hit
some bumps in the road but here's the good part you have now this inner confidence
that helps you own up to your mistakes you're not afraid to say hey my bad had, I messed up.
And then you're all about finding solutions. But what do I do moving forward?
And if your partner is the one that's saying, I don't know why you do this all
the time, there's nothing that we can do about this.
You start to understand, they don't necessarily feel very secure.
And if they now have this.
Thing that they feel like they can weaponize against me, that really is a them thing.
Because now I'm on this path of awakening and I'm reading things,
I'm listening to podcasts, I'm showing up, I'm doing, I'm being.
And so you now are about finding solutions. Now you recognize that you cannot
force this other person to do their work, but you now get it. You're doing yours.
And whether that means asking for advice, going to a therapist,
leaning on others, whatever it takes, when things get tough,
you start to realize, oh man, I've missed out on on a secure attachment.
And that is why I am still finding myself waking up every day saying,
hey, who can I get to validate me?
Or if I can get this person to feel comfortable enough, then maybe they'll notice me.
Because we want to get you to this place of, you know your worth,
and you're not about to hide who you are, even in the most intimate relationships.
And this is really when people are talking about being vulnerable,
can you be vulnerable in your relationship?
And a lot of people listening to Waking Up to Narcissism have tried their very
very best, but they're just left feeling like what just happened and what's
wrong with me and why it must be me. I must be unlovable.
But you start from birth as lovable and moving forward, that's still a constant.
And you need to know that internally. You need to have that secure attachment
with yourself so that you're showing up in your relationships, feeling pretty good.
And now again, I'll have some ups and downs, but now I got somebody there that
I can process in motion with.
I got somebody there that's my number one hype man, this superhero without a cape.
So if that is not what you have in your relationship, I'm not saying,
well, you just pack your bags and head out right now.
But this is one of those concepts that I think we all need to understand what
attachment looks like, what a secure attachment feels like, and what an anxious
attachment, what an avoidant attachment, what those look like in our relationships.
Now, are Are they immediately easy to change? Absolutely not.
But we're in that process where you probably didn't even know what they were,
or you're starting to hear about them.
You didn't know what you didn't know. Now you might kind of know,
but you're still not really sure what that means.
But now you want a relationship where you can be all in.
You would love to share your dreams, your fears, and everything in between and
not know that that's going to come back and bite you because if you are in one
of those relationships, you know that it typically does.
So then when it comes to being with that special somebody in your life,
you're all about giving and receiving support.
It's not a one-way street. It's a mutually reciprocal relationship.
You actually love being together, but you're also completely cool doing your own thing.
And it's not about clinging so tight or needing a ton of space.
It's really about finding that sweet spot where you both feel good.
And that only can happen when both of you are showing up and both of you are
doing your work and both of you are looking internally at, all right, what is this?
What is the saying about me? How can I show up and be better?
But that can't just be a one-sided street.
So then if this secure attachments there, when your partner needs you,
you're there, no questions asked.
You've got this knack for, you're able to keep your cool and you can handle
conflict in a way that's healthy.
It's constructive because life is going to continue to throw a bunch of curve
balls, which I could never hit as a baseball player, but in your relationships
and outside of them, you've got this bounce back ability, this sort of thing
that helps you get through these tough times.
Now you could weather that storm alone if you needed to, but man,
when you've got this secure attachment, when you've got this safe relationship,
somebody that you can just know is there, you can count on them.
They've got your back, they love you.
And that really does make going through life a little bit easier.
So, in a nutshell, having a secure attachment style means you are navigating
these ups and downs of relationships with a sense of trust and you can be open
and you can be resilient.
You are developing this emotional toolkit that then helps you build strong,
healthy connection with the people you care about. out.
But wait a minute. What is that up there in the clearing?
I just saw something run by. Was that a tail or wait a horn? Okay. It's a unicorn.
And yeah. Hi there, Mr. Leprechaun. No, for the last time, I could not care
less about your lucky charms. Anyway, secure attachment.
The reason why I pulled the old unicorn and leprechaun bit is I hope that this
has started to get you a little bit more hyped up about what it can look like.
And if you are here and you're listening to this podcast, I know that you are
trying to navigate a relationship, whether it's with your spouse,
whether it's with your boss, whether it's with your adult parent,
your sibling, your adult child, whatever that looks like.
And I just really want to continue to say, hey, here's what we're looking at.
We're not looking for perfection, but if we don't even know what we're striving for,
then we're just going to continue to try to make sense of maybe the nonsense
that we're in instead of recognizing that, man, I am of worth and I deserve
to be heard and understood because I'm willing to give that to somebody.
And as I've tried to give that to somebody who's thrown that back in my face
or use that against me, it turns out that isn't a me problem.
Now, the me problem might be that I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to speak up or I don't know how to move forward or maybe even
if I need to start navigating what an exit would look like. I'm not sure what that looks like.
But wherever you are on that path, it's where you are.
And sometimes I feel like, and maybe it's because I'm talking to people all
day from my therapist chair, I'm still looking for somebody who grew up with
that idyllic childhood.
Again, no, we're not talking about perfect, but that they felt that confident
about themselves coming out of adolescence.
Because I've had plenty of people, and I love it, tell me that their childhood was darn near perfect.
And I'm not saying that my job is to tell them they're wrong,
to say, really? You sure?
But the more you get into what that attachment pattern looks like,
a little further examination, we typically learned that, oh,
okay, yeah, some of those things, I guess, maybe weren't so normal.
So without that secure attachment, we're going to come out of childhood with
some good old attachment wounds, which will most likely leave us seeking a lot
of validation or feeling like we want to completely isolate when the relationship
spotlight starts to shine directly on us.
And that, my amazing listeners, my emotional architects, is why I believe that
we show up in our relationships lovingly and amazingly emotionally immature
and enmeshed with a deficit of self-love.
Shout out to Ross Rosenberg and his work on redefining codependency to self-love deficit disorder.
And all of this is what brings us up to part two of theoretically two,
but we'll see how we feel in another half an hour or so, if we'll need a part
three of two, of talking about the narcissist and attachment styles.
And as we start to dig into this part two, I think it's important to recognize
that when I am talking about narcissism, hopefully by now you can recognize
that for me personally, for this podcast that I'm looking at narcissism,
narcissistic traits and tendencies,
but mainly sliding over into the world of extreme emotional immaturity.
Okay. And before we really dig into the attachment styles, stay with me here
for a second, because I think there's a little bit of a shift that's going to
happen because let's talk about emotional immaturity and you can almost see
where the emotionally immature person really is insecure,
but you can watch this origin story or this genesis of where the script starts
to flip, where then they end up having more control.
But it comes from this place of insecurity. I wrote out this narrative of it's
really it's imagined that you are dealing with somebody who is kind of stuck
in an emotional throwback phase.
And we often say that the emotionally mature, it's like dealing with a 10 year
old. Sometimes I make a hilarious comment and say, oh, you're giving them a couple of years credit.
But it really is like this spectrum of from adolescence into teenagehood when
now somebody goes from I don't know how to show up and be seen to,
OK, well, I'm going to figure this out.
And I know how to control in order to feel like people are going to stay with me.
And if you look at that concept of what happens in a high school drama when
it comes to handling the ups and downs of life, when things don't go the way
of the emotionally immature, they are probably going to throw a fit or get really
defensive at just the slightest hint of criticism.
Or they really can't seem to put themselves in somebody else's shoes.
They're quick with a, yeah, but why didn't you do this?
Or, oh, really, that's what you do? That's so funny. I do things completely different and better.
But what then happens from there
is what's fascinating, is that they then retreat into their own world.
And this is where we start looking at what will eventually become something
like the narcissist discard.
So to that pathologically kind person, when the emotionally immature narcissistic
person leaves the interaction after the emotionally immature person just said
something pretty horrific,
now that emotionally immature person then retreats into their own world because
this is what happened in their childhood.
This is what happened in their teenage years because they could not continue
to show up and possibly be wrong or stay in a conversation and just be too emotionally vulnerable.
So I get out of that discomfort and then I retreat into my own world,
maybe glued to my phone, but not looking to grow or change.
So now they are changing or they're going through life.
It is definitely on their own timeline and they're oblivious to the emotional
roller coaster that they're putting others through because that pathologically
kind person now is sitting there thinking, okay, now I feel worse that I was even saying anything.
So, it's like that emotionally immature person goes from this place of immaturity
and insecurity and thinking, okay, I just told you how you could act and feel
better. And now you didn't respond.
I'm out of here. It's like I'm upset and you don't get it. or now they're psychologically,
they're wounded, they're hurt on the inside because to them,
it's also, well, nobody ever listened to me as a kid.
So I'm going to be able to take this power back and take this control in the
relationship by controlling others.
And so then they become, they go back into this bubble where they can't see
beyond their own feelings and they don't even know or realize the effort it
takes to really connect and understand somebody else's struggles.
Nobody Nobody saw them as a kid.
So then they will then just when they leave a situation, they feel like,
OK, well, that that's that's how conversations go.
They dealt with it. And then somehow then they eventually seem to kind of bounce
back on their own terms. And now they get to act like everything's back to normal.
And then even to tell you, no, I'm good. I'm not really sure what you're upset
about. It's emotionally inconsistent.
And here's where it gets really tricky. So then if you, as their partner,
their friend, or even their kid, try to get to the heart of the issue,
or if then something sets them off again,
then they shut down and they start making all these assumptions that you should
just know why I'm upset without even giving you any actual words or tools to understand.
And it just provides you with this continuous cycle of confusion,
these misconnections. And then there's where the dynamic starts to shift the
balance of power in the relationship.
The person who was once trying to connect and be understood,
the pathologically kind, now they feel lost. They feel sidelined.
And the emotionally immature person now, they end up being able to call the
shots. They engage when they want to engage.
They're done with this conversation when they're done. When they come in and
they're happy, then you need to join them. When they're sad,
I can't believe you didn't recognize and you didn't take care of me.
And that just happens over and over. And that cycle just continues to repeat.
And then this pattern, that's what strains relationships.
And it can really lead to a sense of detachment and loneliness for both parties.
It's a tough spot to be in. You know, but I speak to the pathologically kind
of trying to navigate a relationship where you desire this emotional growth
and then you want to communicate more, but it is an absolute maze of how to do that.
And the person that's calling the shots now has grown up not feeling seen or
understood and believing that, well, a conversation, the way it works is we
get to the part where I'm right or I leave this conversation.
So, when we ended part one of our exploration of narcissism and attachment styles,
we were just getting to a point of talking about how narcissism develops and
how early interactions and relationships can shape the personality styles.
And I want to give a tremendous amount of credit to the attachmentproject.com.
It's not the, it's attachmentproject.com and the article narcissistic personality and attachment.
And I'll have the link in the show notes. But they say that according to research,
there are several early conditions that contribute to the development of narcissism.
And we go into this world of is it nature or nurture and simply stated, yes.
But some of the concepts are overindulgence.
So imagine a kid who is treated like a little prince or a little princess,
a king or a queen when they're at home, where every single thing that they want that they get. it.
So then their parents, their caregivers, they shower them with praise and gifts
and attention, and there's no real boundaries. There's no real limits.
And you can even see that this can come from an emotionally immature parent
because the parent doesn't want to feel bad about if the kid feels bad.
So if the kid starts to act up, then the way that the parent gets rid of that
discomfort is let me just give them what they need.
And then I feel like a good parent and then they get what they need,
but it's just creating the cycle of overindulgence because the kid really does
start to believe that they are the center of the universe.
Now, kids feel that by nature, but this is the, I literally just utter a word
and then my subjects, my royal subjects go and do my bidding.
It's not that I utter a word and my parents are there saying,
hey, what can I do? What do you need?
And then if I say, again, I want candy for dinner, they're not saying,
okay, yeah, no problem, but just this one time. Or they're not saying, are you kidding me?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. They're going to sit there
with you and try to hear you and try to help you understand that there's things
that we maybe need to have before we have candy.
But when the kid starts to believe that they really are the center of the universe,
then then they will expect everybody around them to treat them with the same
level of adoration and indulgence.
So just take somebody in their childhood and growing up, their parents always
make a big deal out of everything they do from the tiniest little thing.
And this is where just for context, why I like a parenting model,
like the nurtured heart approach,
where I'm not going to react to the button pushing that my kid does,
but then I'm going to give genuine praise when, When, man, I love the way that
you just calm down because that shows me that you are really becoming a good big brother.
Or, man, I see you doing your homework right when you got home.
And that just blows my mind. It
just shows me that you are just really dedicated and you get things done.
Instead of like, good job, bud. Yeah. Okay. I see it. Yeah, I get it. I see you.
Because what happens then is if you fast forward this kid who has just gotten
nothing but hollow praise, every single thing handed to them at the moment that they utter a word,
then that person has probably never heard the word no, or never even been asked
questions about, well, tell me more about that, or what can we do to work toward that?
Now, fast forward to adulthood, that person's going to expect the same royal
treatment from friends, coworkers, partners.
So when a boss doesn't give them praise or every single task that's completed,
or a friend doesn't constantly shower them with compliments,
then they're slighted and angry.
And then relationships start to be strained because this person will see everybody
else subconsciously, maybe as fans who must adore and praise them constantly,
or as enemies who don't recognize their, their amazingness, their specialness.
And so that is going to lead to conflicts and a cycle of unstable relationships.
You, I would imagine, maybe all of us know that person who has left a number
of jobs, never been their fault though.
It's always that other person didn't appreciate them, or they weren't clear
about things, but it couldn't have been the person who was having that string
of those situations happen or burning down every relationship behind them.
Another one of the beliefs around some of the origin stories of narcissism,
but again, we're still gonna go with it.
It is this nature and nurture, but authoritarian parenting.
And you can think of authoritarian parenting as just this tough,
no-nonsense approach, where then it is strict rules.
The rules are everything. Those, they reign supreme.
Things like warmth and affection and empathy are in very short supply.
So that is the world where the answer really can just be because I'm the parent, because I said so.
I mean, that's the law and it's also a form of emotional manipulation because
it makes kids feel guilty or questioning their own reality, gaslighting,
when they just even ask a question.
Well, why can't I do that? And if the parent just says, because I said so,
then now the kid's going to learn that, okay, okay, there's complete inconsistency in life.
And the way that I can get out of my discomfort later on is just to say, because I said so.
And that's the kind of environment that starts to push kids into believing that
they are never good enough. So then they will overcompensate later in life.
I had a client once who grew up in a household that was extremely authoritarian,
and the rules were the rules.
And he was telling me that for a long time, he felt like, okay,
the only way he would get praise as if he not only followed the rules,
but validated these are the most amazing rules ever.
So that continually fed the parents this, okay, no, we're good.
We're doing it good that we're this authoritarian.
Because this guy's parents were so quick to point out flaws and very rarely gave praise.
And they would use that guilt to control behavior often.
The point that I think was interesting was this is one of those examples where
if this guy got an A minus, then it was, well, how can you do better?
And even sometimes a good parent thinks, but that's how I motivate them,
but it's a kid. They want to hear that, man, that is some amazing work.
But instead they get the things like, Hey, look at all we do to sacrifice for you.
Do you think that I work all day and that I do all that I do so that you can
bring home an A-minus? That just shows me you don't appreciate me and the work that I'm doing.
But look at the table that that sets for the rest of their life.
Doing really, really good is not enough. And so even if they then get the A,
it's not, oh my gosh, you are amazing.
At that point, there's probably nothing said because that's the expectation.
So moving forward in life, there's an expectation of perfection.
Perfection so then if the person even slightly and
i'm going to air quote falls short with whatever
they're doing because again they're just doing and being first time
them in their life and whatever they're doing as an adult as a kid
whatever it is you name it but now if they don't do something perfect and don't
get the praise even in their adulthood then well they must have done something
wrong or bad so now i need you to praise me i need words of affirmation and
i need to know that you're okay with me, that you see me,
but then it turns out there's a hole in that bucket and the person will never
quite feel like they are enough, period.
So, I'll go back to this client. He definitely said, I crave constant validation.
I am extremely anxiously attached.
And he would say that to get this validation, this admiration,
I mean, he would go to extreme lengths.
He would even felt like exploit relationships or adopt more of this superior
attitude, but that was to mask these deep seated feelings of unworthiness that
he had to show up and say, I'm amazing and I need to control you.
And if you don't see that I'm amazing, I'm probably going to make you subconsciously
feel bad about it so that then you will show back up and meet my needs.
So then he's then basically recreating this push and pull dynamic in his personal
relationships, swinging between being overly charming and then excessively critical
and then just mirroring the confusing and critical upbringing that he experienced.
And then there is another thing that creates the narcissism and the narcissistic
attachment, and that is simply abuse.
And not simply abuse, it is abuse, but just period. Period.
Imagine a kid who feels invisible or they're constantly under attack,
whether it's through neglect or more direct forms of physical,
emotional, psychological and sexual abuse.
You know, that pain, that's that kind of pain is so deep and raw that facing
it head on just feels impossible.
And often kids coming out of those situations, it's buried so deep.
But man, they can just react.
That visceral reaction can just become unhinged without them even knowing what's going on.
And often in childhood, to escape that kind of a reality, they create an imaginary
world where they're not only just seen, but they are adored.
And where then they actually wield power and everybody bends to their wheel.
And everybody bends to their will. I remember another client that growing up,
she felt absolutely unloved, unwanted, and she would get ignored often.
And every now and again, there was physical abuse as well.
So then to her as a kid, the concept of the world just seemed pretty cold and
definitely unforgiving.
And forget trust, that was a foreign concept.
So to cope, then she built this just inner world where everything was different.
Where she was the star, she was loved by all, she was powerful,
she was always in control.
And then as she got older, this became a shield against the world's harshness.
And so then to keep her dream alive, then she eventually started to act like
this fantasy was true. So, if somebody tried to get close or see the real her,
then they were met with aggression or maybe disdain.
So, her relationships became really superficial.
And if she tried to allow anybody too close, then they might shatter that illusion
of perfection and control that she'd developed in her internal world.
And she said in her eyes, other people really were potential threats to this
just carefully constructed world where that led her to this life where she felt
like genuine connection was scarce.
The fantasy of being untouchable, then it was lonely, but it was pretty necessary. necessary.
And for her in particular, and I thought this was always fascinating,
she'd put on a fair amount of weight.
And she even said that she realized at times that was a protection so that people
wouldn't even try to get to know the real her.
So let's now dig into this world of attachment styles and narcissism.
Getting back to the article, and I'm going to throw a lot of my own thoughts in here as well.
Because attachment theory is, it's about our deep-seated need to connect with
others. So from the moment that we're born, the way that we bond with our caregivers,
that starts to set the stage for how we'll relate to people all throughout our lives.
And it'll influence everything from our self-esteem, our physical health,
the more we learn about epigenetics, to our dislikes, our likes, and even our fears.
And when it comes to understanding narcissism and the reason we
just laid out the some of those origin stories it's really
interesting to see how these early bonds or more specifically the
lack of secure ones can lead to a variety of narcissistic traits but then here's
where it gets tricky is figuring out the link between narcissism and the attachment
styles now you can see there are a lot of different variables and so it is like
solving a complex puzzle and part of that challenge is is that people with grandiose
narcissism, which we talked a little bit more about in part one,
they just see themselves in a really positive light. They have to.
And so it's almost impossible to see them acknowledge that they struggle in their relationships.
And then if that is what they've been doing for as long as they're doing it,
if that has become part of their implicit memory or what it feels like to be
them, then they probably don't even realize how their actions impact others.
And sometimes people call that the oblivious narcissist.
And what's really interesting is they will often be the ones that claim that
they have a secure attachment style, which means, you know, a secure attachment
style, if that was true, that means that it's somebody who can form healthy relationships.
So narcissists tend to have a lot of relationship issues.
So what that contradiction says is that rather than being securely attached,
they're probably more avoidantly attached.
And I personally think this is where the, when you dig into emotionally immature people,
you're seeing more of an anxious attachment but that
true narcissism would be more avoidant because they can't
let somebody see them they can't be wrong but they think that
they are showing up the best version of anybody could in
a relationship because they're amazing and so then they continually think well
that's a you issue but then they must discard you if the relationship goes south
because they are fine they have a secure attachment they feel good about themselves
but now hopefully you you can see that there it's a concept of,
I feel good about myself.
Right guys, right? Right guys looking behind me to all of my internal parts and pieces.
I wrote down some notes about a
client who I remember she prided herself absolutely on being independent.
She was self-sufficient and these traits looked amazing and they were admired by everybody else.
And she would insist that I did not need anybody, but it, and she projected it.
I even sat up in my seat as I'm saying this with confidence
and a sense of security in relationships but it
was a facade and there was a deep truth underneath there
that despite her claiming to
be securely attached I mean she was terrified of intimacy and closeness because
when she had been in those situations and things got too close or vulnerable
she found herself subconsciously finding a way to pick apart whoever that was
that was trying to get to know her so she would push people away before they get too close.
And so her relationships were, in essence, marked by a pattern of really high
expectations and then big time disappointments.
And meanwhile, she's keeping her partners at a distance.
And then also what that made and also what that did was it made her emotional needs remain unmet.
But she wasn't willing to take a look at it could be her that's not being vulnerable or open.
So then that led to her feeling like nobody really loves me or nobody cares and I'm awesome.
Which that is more of an avoidant attachment style which completely contradicted
what she self-reported as a secure attachment which just shows that complex relationship between,
narcissism and attachment in general now we
talked again about vulnerable narcissism in part one so let's look at that so
that vulnerable narcissist again they're like those friends who just crave the
spotlight they need constant reassurance but at the same time they are really
sensitive to any form of criticism or rejection so it's a lot of passive aggressive
behavior it's a little bit of of a paradox because they want people to notice and admire them.
But then the very idea of forming close relationships actually brings on anxiety,
but then they get rid of that anxiety by gaslighting, by manipulating.
And that kind of behavior, it really, it's so closely related to what's known
as a disorganized attachment style.
And this is the one that I was not as familiar with. Disorganized attachments
when somebody has a hard time managing their feelings in relationships,
And it can be highlighted by this swing of wanting to be close and then being really scared of it.
And that can make their interactions with others really confusing because you
might find yourself saying, but yeah, doesn't that sound just like anxious attachment?
Because anxious attachment, that involves a ton of just clinging and seeking
approval and fearing abandonment. But here's the twist.
So even though vulnerable narcissists share the anxiety and those approval-seeking
traits, they don't really fit into the anxious attachment style because their
anxiety doesn't manifest and clinginess or a fear of being left alone.
But what it does is it pushes them to avoid relationships altogether to protect
their fragile self-esteem.
Real life example, let's just call this person Jamie. They would continually
fish for compliments and then they would just get so upset over the tiniest hint of criticism.
And this person posted a lot on social media and it was pretty early on.
They wanted likes, they wanted validation, but they're not going to respond to comments.
They're not going to engage in any real conversation. So now they can be angry
that people didn't necessarily like things or love things, but I'm not going
to actually do anything about it. I'm not going to engage. I'm not going to self-reflect.
And so this person, Jamie, they showed up pretty reserved and they would be
really hesitant to open up to form deeper connections.
And even though on their online persona seemed to be that that's all they cared about. Yeah.
Now, Jamie's behavior is it was a pretty classic case of vulnerable narcissism,
because despite that outward appearance of seeking approval,
there was no way Jamie was going to get too close to anybody fearing those deeper
relationships would only lead to judgment and rejection.
So they're putting out this just disorganized style of connection because it
was in one sense, validate me, validate me.
But then if somebody was saying, I will and let's have a conversation,
then they're going to find fault with not you.
Who? There isn't anybody that they, but that vulnerable narcissist with this
disorganized attachment style doesn't know this because they don't want to self-reflect
and see what that's about. They can just put something out there.
People don't meet those needs. Then if somebody that really desires a connection
reaches out to them, then they find something wrong with that person,
but then they will engage with somebody who they can continually manipulate
this push and pull and push and pull.
And that is more in line with disorganized attachment than anxious attachment
because when Jamie craves approval, all of a sudden this prospect of real connection
and that vulnerability that it requires is scary. It's intimidating.
So that leads to this pattern of avoidance and emotional turmoil and then reaching
out for validation, but that's not going to work. And then back to avoidance.
Okay. Stay with me here. I know that we're some 40 minutes in,
but I really want to get through disorganized attachment style and what that
looks like with regard to grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.
And then I will maybe save some of the treatment approaches for maybe that will
go in a separate episode.
We won't call it three of two. It will be its own about, because I get asked often, what do you do?
Are there ways to treat extreme emotional immaturity?
So there's a preview for coming attractions.
But the disorganized attachment style, the simple explanation is that disorganized
attachment and vulnerable narcissist, they share some common ground,
but they're definitely not the same thing.
So let's kind of entangle those a little bit.
So a disorganized attachment, you kind of need to look at it like somebody who
craves closeness and intimacy, but they're terrified, just absolutely terrified of getting hurt.
That's disorganized attachment in a nutshell. It's like wanting to jump into
a pool, being scared of water. Or, I want to go to the amusement park,
but I absolutely hate rides.
So, people with that kind of attachment style, they have a shaky sense of self-worth,
and then they find it hard to trust others.
So, then their relationship behavior starts to seem pretty contradictory.
You know, they might pull you close one minute, they kind of push you away the
next, all because they're wrestling with this internal conflict between a desire
for connection and a fear of rejection.
And I will tell you, this is from the Attachment Project website where they're
talking so much about vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.
But I know that this starts to sound a little bit borderline because one of
the best books on borderline is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, which sounds like
this disorganized attachment style.
But what we'll talk about real quick is the vulnerable narcissist,
because they, again, they also fear relationships, and they actually have a
low view of themselves, similar to those with the disorganized attachment.
But again, vulnerable narcissist carries a deep-seated belief that they are
better than you. They are superior. They are entitled.
And that might be where some of the core differences around borderline come into play.
Because deep down, that vulnerable narcissist, they still feel like they deserve
special treatment and that they deserve recognition, even though way deep down
inside, they feel unworthy and they're afraid of getting close to others.
But again, they still don't think that they are better and they should just deserve this.
There's some similarities, both disorganized attachment and vulnerable narcissism.
They both involve a significant fear of relationships and intimacy,
feelings of inadequacy, negative self-image, emotional instability,
because they can swing back and forth between these different moods.
And there's this tendency to avoid getting too close to others,
even though there's a longing for connection.
The differences, even though both stem from troubled early experiences,
like it could could be abuse or neglect, the key difference lies in the narcissist's
added layer of entitlement superiority.
Because disorganized attachment really is more about confusion and inconsistency
in relationships due to fear and mistrust.
Vulnerable narcissism includes those fears, but compounded by this underlying
demand, an absolute need for admiration as, I mean, that's their supply and
then their continued belief in their special status.
Let me give you two individuals. We'll call them Jordan and Casey.
So you got Jordan, who has a disorganized attachment style.
Jordan struggles in relationships. They go back and forth between wanting to
be really close to somebody. That's all I want.
And then all of a sudden, finding every reason in the world to pull away,
scared of being hurt without really understanding this.
So then Jordan's actions absolutely confuse people, especially Jordan's partners.
They can't understand the mixed signals.
But Jordan feels like, number one, how can't they get it?
And two, they're not even aware of what they're doing now yet
Casey who's the vulnerable narcissist so Casey shows up and it looks like similar
fears and desires for closeness but they also then expect there's that expectation
Casey expects their partner to cater to their needs and soothe their insecurities
without question that is their job and Casey might react get really angry if people withdraw and.
When those expectations aren't met, but it's not just because of a fear of intimacy,
but it's a belief, again, that Casey is inherently deserving of special treatment,
not just being seen, but by being adored and darn near worship.
So while both Jordan and Casey might struggle with this intimacy dance,
this dance of connection, Casey's challenges are amplified by this entitlement
that makes that healthy relationship even more difficult to maintain.
And that's where I think you can start to see just someone with a disorganized
attachment, maybe more emotionally immature, but they miss that entitlement
or that narcissistic piece.
That's where when somebody says, can one get better?
And why I go so big on the, if we start from a place of we're emotionally immature,
then we can start to look at the tools to get better.
But if there is a deep underlying narcissistic personality disorder,
then that person, they don't know how to let go of that, but I'm better.
As long as we can establish that, then we can try to move forward.
But if I'm always going to be better, I'm actually better than the therapist.
I'm actually better than the tools. I'm actually better than you.
They're thinking and saying to their partner. So now let's take a look at avoidant
attachment style and the grandiose narcissist.
Because this is where in the article I believe they had, it's a Venn diagram.
And there's these two circles.
And you can think of avoidant attachment and grandiose narcissism as those two circles.
But there's a surprising amount of overlap. lap. So people with an avoidant
attachment style are like those people who they just seem to be super independent.
They're keeping people at arm's length. And especially when things start to
get too real, too intimate, too vulnerable, they become the,
they look like this cool, detached person that has everything figured out.
And then just always going to keep things light rather than dive into the deep
of the emotional conversation pool.
But that grandiose narcissist, they will take this to another level because
they don't only keep people at a distance, but then they also mix in a strong
belief that they're also superior.
And they hunger for admiration, but it's almost as like they just drive by admiration.
They just come into your life and then they are telling you all the things that
make them sound amazing. You may even think they're amazing.
You may give them the validation until you don't, or it's never going to be enough.
So then at some point, then they need to move on. I mean, it is like this avoidant
attachment on steroids, but then this added dash of entitlement and self-importance
that is coming whenever they want it and will just leave you completely just
feeling like, I don't even know what just hit me.
So, the similarities between avoidant attachment and narcissism,
both people with avoidant attachment and those with grandiose narcissists,
they do share some traits, distrust in others.
There's this fundamental lack of trust in other people's intentions and reliability,
and then really shallow surface-like relationships. They might have a lot of
acquaintances or even partners, but the connections really don't go below the surface.
And when you're talking to somebody about this, and let's say we've got the
pathologically kind person, and they'll even say that we had a great weekend,
and I'll say, well, what did you guys talk about?
I don't know, just all kinds of stuff, where we were going to go to dinner,
what we'd like to do on our hike.
And it goes back a little bit to that we don't
know what we don't know about what a true vulnerable emotionally
connected conversation can look like or also the
old the absence of bad doesn't mean that the relationship is good
concept but again what they share the avoidant attachment those with the grandiose
narcissist also this piece that looks like self-reliance you know independence
that becomes the whole name of the game and with an emphasis on self-sufficiency
and then keeping those emotional needs tightly underwrapped.
So not only are they amazing, but they will do things on their own because you
couldn't possibly do it as good as they could do it.
But there's also that just fear of that, okay, if we do it together,
then I might have to open up myself to the concept of this thing that I've heard
of being wrong, which the grandiose narcissist is not really familiar with.
They both also share the concept around a dismissal of the deep connections
Because there's even a reluctance to acknowledge the value of close intimate relationships.
What you'll see a lot with avoidant attachment is that they,
why would I want to cry on your shoulder? I'll just deal with it myself.
I don't understand why that would help because that isn't what they've done.
That isn't what they saw modeled. And so then even if they do it,
it's usually to the person that is more of the anxious attachment in their life,
who then that person now is like, thank you so much for needing me or letting me see you.
But the avoidant attachment saying, okay, are we done yet?
Let me stop patting my back, please.
But while they share those traits, the avoidant people don't necessarily see
themselves as better than everybody else or expect constant praise like the
grandiose narcissist does.
Their cool distance comes more from a place of self-protection and a preference
for solitude over the fear of getting hurt rather than this need for admiration.
Think of somebody that's like the life of a party. They're surrounded by tons
of people, but they really don't ever get close to anybody.
They might date casually. They avoid any talk of getting serious.
And this is, side note, this is where the concept of ghosting people comes in often.
They will, this type of person often ghost partners when they seem not to be too invested.
And then they can tell themselves, I don't need anybody. And then boast about
their independence, their self-reliance.
But again, that's not about a feeling of superiority or craving admiration.
It's more about a deep-seated distrust and a fear of being vulnerable in this
particular instance. You know, this person's approach to relationships was more
of a defense mechanism or this
way to avoid the potential pain of being emotionally open or intimate.
And that kind of behavior, it mirrors the avoidant attachment style because
there's this emphasis on independence and superficial connections showing how
it can resemble aspects of narcissism without fully embracing the narcissist
need for admiration and entitlement.
So I hope you can see these crossover points, this Venn diagram,
avoidant and grandiose narcissist. And there's just a lot of that area that
overlaps. It seems to be similar.
Let's talk about the differences now between avoidant attachment and a grandiose
narcissist, because while they might share some common ground,
they are coming from extremely different places.
So, let me go back through that list and break down those things a little bit in more detail.
That concept of extreme dismissal.
When a grandiose narcissist dismisses somebody, they take it to a whole other level.
They don't just keep people at a distance. They then view people as lesser beings,
in essence, as this low status.
They are primarily there to shower the narcissist with praise and then meet their needs.
And it's not just about avoiding closeness for the grandiose narcissist.
It's about exploiting relationships just purely for their own gain without any
regard really for the other person's feelings or even dignity.
The avoidant attachment, on the flip side, those with avoidant attachment might
dodge these deep connections and intimacy, but they're not out to use other people.
Their standoffish behavior, it comes from learned belief that other people can't
be counted on for emotional support.
And that belief comes from childhood marked by emotional coldness,
a lack of affection, a lack of availability from a parent, which then leads
them to turn off their expectations of emotional closeness from other people.
So if you look at the roots of the behavior, the avoidant attachment often grows
from a place of neglect or emotional unavailability from their caregivers.
And kids in those environments learn early on that if I show emotions,
I'm not going to get them met.
I'm not going to get the love or the support that I crave. So they start to
suppress their need for closeness.
Now, narcissism, that's more about building a fortress of self-importance.
That turns out to be a way to block out feelings of being unlovable or inadequate. inadequate.
And that's the defense mechanism that then you can just boost up by arrogance and hostility.
But it is such a different thing. It is a far cry from the avoidance,
more passive approach to self-protection.
And then if we look back at the concept of being overindulgent versus emotional
neglect, that's another big difference. And that lies in how these traits develop.
Narcissism can also be the result of being overly pampered and not having to
face any boundaries or consequences, which then leads to unrealistic expectations
of special treatment in all their relationships.
That avoidant attachment, though, that's more about getting used to having one's
emotional needs overlooked or just outright rejected, not indulged.
Okay, stay with me here. I know that we're some 40 minutes in,
but I really want to get through disorganized attachment style and what that
looks like with regard to grandiose and vulnerable narcissism.
And then I will maybe save some of the treatment approaches for maybe that will
go in a separate episode.
We won't call it three of two. It will be its own about, because I get asked often, what do you do?
Are there ways to treat extreme emotional immaturity?
So there's a preview for coming attractions.
But the disorganized attachment style, the simple explanation is that disorganized
attachment and vulnerable narcissist, they share some common ground,
but they're definitely not the same thing.
So let's kind of untangle those a little bit.
So a disorganized attachment, you kind of need to look at it like somebody who
craves closeness and intimacy, but they're terrified, just absolutely terrified of getting hurt.
That's disorganized attachment in a nutshell. It's kind of like wanting to jump
into a pool, being scared of water, or I want to go to to the amusement park,
but I absolutely hate rides.
So people with that kind of attachment style, they have a shaky sense of self-worth
and then they find it hard to trust others.
So then their relationship behavior starts to seem pretty contradictory.
They might pull you close one minute, they push you away the next,
all because they're wrestling with this internal conflict between a desire for
connection and a fear of rejection.
And I will tell you, this is from the Attachment Project website where they're
talking so much about vulnerable and grandiose narcissism.
But I know that this starts to sound a little bit borderline because one of
the best books on borderline is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, which sounds like
this disorganized attachment style.
But what we'll talk about real quick is the vulnerable narcissist,
because they, again, they also fear relationships and they actually have a low
view of themselves, similar to those with the disorganized attachment.
But again, vulnerable narcissist carries a deep seed of a belief that they are
better than you. They are superior. They are entitled.
And that might be where some of the core differences around borderline come into play.
Because deep down, that vulnerable narcissist, they still feel like they deserve
special treatment and that they deserve recognition, even though way deep down
inside, they feel unworthy and they're afraid of getting close to others.
But again, they still don't think that they are better and they should just deserve this.
There's some similarities, both disorganized attachment and vulnerable narcissism.
They both involve a significant fear of relationships and intimacy,
feelings of inadequacy, negative self-image, emotional instability,
because they can swing back and forth between these different moods.
And there's this tendency to avoid getting too close to others,
even though there's a longing for connection.
The differences, even though both stem from troubled early experiences,
like it could be abuse or neglect, the key difference lies in the narcissist
added layer of entitlement superiority.
Because disorganized attachment really is more about confusion and inconsistency
in relationships due to fear and mistrust.
Vulnerable narcissism, includes those fears, but compounded by this underlying
demand, an absolute need for admiration as that's their supply.
And then there's their continued belief in their special status.
Let me give you two individuals. We'll call them Jordan and Casey.
So you got Jordan, who has a disorganized attachment style.
Jordan struggles in relationships. They go back and forth between wanting to
be really close to somebody. That's all I want.
And then all of a sudden finding every reason in the world to pull away,
scared of being hurt without really understanding this.
So then Jordan's actions absolutely confuse people, especially Jordan's partners.
They can't understand the mixed signals.
But Jordan feels like, number one, how can't they get it? And two,
they're not even aware of what they're doing.
Now you got Casey, who's the vulnerable narcissist. So Casey shows up and it
looks like similar fears and desires for closeness, but they also then expect.
There's that expectation.
Casey expects their partner to cater to their needs and soothe their insecurities
without question. That is their job.
And Casey might react, get really angry if people withdraw when those expectations aren't met.
But it's not just because of a fear of intimacy, but it's a belief,
again, that Casey is inherently deserving of special treatment.
Not just being seen, but by being adored and darn near worship.
So, while both Jordan and Casey might struggle with this intimacy dance,
this dance of connection, Casey's challenges are amplified by this entitlement
that makes that healthy relationship even more difficult to maintain.
And that's where I think you can start to see just someone with a disorganized
attachment, maybe more emotionally immature, but they miss that entitlement
or that narcissistic piece, space that that's where when somebody says, can one get better?
And why I go so big on the, if we start from a place of it's emotion,
we're emotionally immature, then we can start to look at the tools to get better.
But if there is a deep underlying narcissistic personality disorder,
then that person, they don't know how to let go of that, but I'm better.
As long as we can establish that, then we can try to move forward.
But if I'm always going to be better, I'm actually better than the therapist.
I'm actually better than the tools. I'm actually better than you.
They're thinking and saying to their partner.
Okay, so let's wrap things up here. And I will just speak so briefly on the
concept of treatment because this goes back to that attachmentproject.com that
treating narcissism is a challenge.
Because not the very least, because those with grandiose traits,
they don't see any problem with their behavior. Good luck getting them into therapy.
Or if they do, it's for one session and then the therapist is dumb.
And sure, you can go to therapy, but that's a you thing is what the grandiose narcissist is saying.
Vulnerable narcissists, they've got this hidden sense of superiority.
They can be even trickier to identify and treat effectively.
And the risk of misdiagnosis there is so real because that can really lead to
even just more validation for the vulnerable narcissist because if they show
up and play the game the right way and the therapist isn't aware,
then the therapist can continue to validate them, not just not agree with them,
but validate them, which gives them more fuel to the fire and can make couples counseling.
I think it's contraindicated. It's counterintuitive. It doesn't work.
But focusing on self-reflection, understanding the roots of somebody's behavior,
especially through this prism of attachment theory, that's where you can look
at this as what could be a game changer if somebody is willing to,
let's say they're just emotionally immature, if they're really emotionally mature,
if they're somewhere on that spectrum.
And if you can start to look at, okay, I can identify maybe my attachment style,
and then I can go look at where that attachment style comes from.
Then maybe there's a chance that there can be some growth there if that person
is willing to do the growth and sit with a lot of discomfort.
Because the link between narcissistic personality traits and attachment styles,
as you can see, it's tricky. It's intricate.
It's perplexing. It doesn't always follow the same pattern.
Because just that world of narcissism, it reflects a deep-seated difficulty
in how somebody relates to others, but really how they even relate to themselves.
They put out this mask and need everybody else to validate it,
but it changes in a moment.
And figuring out your attachment style and then how you show up being more consistent
to get to this place of secure attachment, I mean, that's central to attachment theory.
So, it's really clear that insecure attachment plays a role or it can play a
role in the development of narcissistic traits, but it's just a tiny,
well, not tiny, it's a piece of the puzzle.
You still have genetics, personality, environmental factors that they all contribute to this.
Complex condition. So then understanding narcissism, emotional immaturity,
it still does require a bit of a personalized approach because recognizing that
everybody's individual journey in and out of narcissistic patterns,
where they fall on that spectrum is unique.
And if you just focus on the underlying attachment issues, I mean,
and you foster maybe this greater capacity for self-reflection and empathy.
And I'm pretty much talking now to you, hopefully fully therapists that maybe
get a chance to see one in your office, therapy can offer a path to healthier
relationships and a more integrated sense of self. But it's just the beginning.
I took some notes down very quickly about what integrating my beloved acceptance
and commitment therapy would look like to treat somebody who has narcissistic traits.
And I feel like there's a place to work from there because ACT focuses on psychological
flexibility, Which is, it's meaning to get out of those just rigid thinking patterns.
And that can be really beneficial for addressing those rigid patterns of thinking
and behavior often seen with extreme emotional immaturity.
So, just quickly, there's these six principles of ACT, and I'll just run through
what those would look like in theory, if you were using ACT to help somebody
that is trying to overcome their extreme emotional immaturity.
The first principle is acceptance.
I mean, in developing acceptance for people with, and we're just going to stay
on the emotionally immature or narcissistic trait side of the spectrum,
acknowledging vulnerability or flaws,
it can be a real challenge because of their fragile self-esteem,
where they take every criticism as, I now have to burn the village down to show you how wrong you are.
Because ACT encourages acceptance of all thoughts and feelings,
including those that are uncomfortable, those that are painful.
I'm just thinking, I'm just, that's a feeling, that's a thought because we have so many of them.
But we attach to these ones of I must be better than, or you don't understand me.
So that process, in theory, could help somebody with emotional immaturity start
to learn to accept their vulnerabilities without resorting to denial or defensiveness.
But hey, check this out, this is how I'm thinking, this is how I'm feeling.
So, in the therapy role, you might start to help somebody recognize and just
accept feelings of inadequacy or feelings of rejection or even feelings of needing
to be better without immediately trying to attach to them, hook to them,
that they are just thoughts and feelings.
That leads to the second concept of ACT is cognitive diffusion.
Emotionally immature, they just often get caught up in their thoughts,
especially those that reinforce their whole sense of superiority or entitlement.
They fuse with those thoughts.
Cognitive diffusion helps people step back from their thoughts and see them
just as thoughts. I'm noticing that I am feeling, not I feel, I am.
They are not absolute truths. So that can reduce the impact and help the person
get a much more realistic perspective on themselves and their relationships
by being able to step back.
You know, when an emotionally mature person starts to ruminate on thoughts like
I must be admired, first of all, you have to have an acceptance of that is a thought.
And if I can then diffuse from it, then I might see it as just a thought,
man, I'm noticing that I am needing to be admired right now. What is that about?
It's maybe the way I'm getting rid of discomfort, or it's what I do when I am
in a close relationship with somebody.
The third principle of ACT is it's about being present, being in the here and
now, because emotional immaturity can involve a preoccupation with slights and
things that happened in the past, or looking into the future of fantasies of success,
admiration, commemoration, an act really emphasizes the importance of being present.
What happened in the past, it totally did happen. What might happen in the future,
maybe it could, but you really can only live in the right here,
right now, which is why it's so important to recognize thoughts and feelings
and emotions and be able to recognize them that they are not, I am not them.
I am not angry. I am not bad.
I am noticing my anger. I am noticing that I am feeling bad.
So, then you can get back into that present moment, which can help individuals
with emotional immaturity focus less on these preoccupations with the things
done wrong and the, well, someday I'll be, but they can be in the here and now.
And that is done through things like my beloved mindfulness.
Mindfulness exercises help you focus on the here and now. Building in the pause,
that is so, so necessary to be able to pause, to be able to even notice these thoughts and feelings.
Because then that will help you get right into the moment now and take action
on things that matter to you, not on controlling others.
The fourth principle of ACT, self is context. ACT helps you understand that
you are more than your thoughts and feelings, that there is a self that is constant
and continuous, regardless of changing experience.
And as we can develop that sense of self, again, the emotionally mature,
they operate from a false self.
They're trying to figure out what self do I need to be to take the one-up position
in any given situation. situation, what we want to do is be able to recognize
our deep inherent worth.
It is there, even if you didn't see that as a child. You are of worth. You are lovable.
You are loved. You have all the things that you need within you.
It's a matter of finding those things as you go about life and go through experiences.
And the way that happens is by feeling safe, feeling seen, heard,
understood, and then developing that secure attachment, hopefully with yourself,
self, but then also ideally with another human being.
Because that self as context can help somebody with emotional immaturity see
beyond their immediate self concept that is tied to superiority, tied to entitlement.
So then if you go through a lot of these exercises that might explore the concept
of self, then an individual might start to identify and connect with different aspects of themselves,
what actually matters to them and that it is that they are allowed to think
and feel and be beyond their emotionally mature traits.
And again, they can learn things more like capacity for empathy or cooperation
and notice the desire to take over, control, to withdraw.
And that leads to one of the most important things, values. Values, clarification.
Narcissistic and emotionally mature behaviors are often driven by these underlying
needs for admiration and validation rather than true personal values.
So, with ACT, you really try to clarify what is genuinely important and meaningful to the individual.
So you can see that if you can peel back enough layers, what really is important
to you? And if the person's saying, well, I just want people to understand that I'm a good person.
It's like, okay, so actually that's me saying, I need others to tell me I'm a good person.
What do we do to get you to start to feel like a good person?
What are things that you might like to do? What are the states of doing and being?
And that can start to help somebody shift their focus from seeking external
validation to starting to do, pursue more fulfilling value-based actions.
So as a therapist, you might work with that person to start to identify core
values, such as connection, growth, curiosity, adventure.
And you can start to explore those and how those can guide your actions,
interactions with others.
And it will feel uncomfortable because sometimes that person,
the narcissist, the emotionally mature, I would say they need another human
to interact with, to know that they exist.
So they have to start learning to exist as their self and giving themselves
love and praise. Thank you.
And then the last principle of ACT is committed action. So ACT encourages setting
of goals based on your values, though, and taking concrete steps toward the
goals and then introducing this concept of psychological flexibility,
because it is not that rigid or black or white.
You just have to start working toward the goal based on a value.
And you may find that that isn't even the most, the biggest value that you have.
You'll learn more along the way.
So for somebody with narcissistic traits, emotionally immature,
that means you're engaging in behaviors that promote genuine connection with
others based off of real life experience and maybe shared values,
which can open you up to the possibility of empathy and in connection with others,
rather than those that seek to reinforce their sense of superiority by just
taking over any given moment and thinking that they are the best,
even if they don't even know what they're talking about.
So, the example there was the person might commit to an act of kindness if they're
going to try to nurture a value of kindness without expecting anything in return,
which is going going to feel uncomfortable or starting to learn to listen actively
to other people, but not turn the conversation back to themselves,
which is something I've definitely had to work on as I just did it right there.
Let me tell you about what I've had to work on.
So by focusing on these principles of act, somebody with emotional immaturity,
you could see how they, it could help them move toward a more flexible.
Accepting, authentic, and fulfilling way of relating to themselves and why that's so important,
so that then they could show up and be
curious about other people right now if they
if they feign curiosity and so that you will express
something so then they can tell you how dumb that is or how
much better they are than you that's not genuine curiosity okay if
you are still here with me i wish i could give you take a virtual
trophy today that's uh you've earned it you've earned the gold sticker the sucker
if i had one in my office but i appreciate you being here if you have questions
thoughts comments your stories please reach out to me i get them every And I'll
read them and we've got some things in place to be able to hopefully address
those better and in a quicker timeframe.
But I appreciate you. I appreciate the support of the podcast.
It blows my mind every time I do see numbers that it's far surpassed my virtual
couch podcast, which that far surpassed anything I ever thought that I could
put out there and my hope of helping.
Have an amazing week and I will see you next time on Waking Up the Nerd.
Music.