WEBVTT 00:00:03.857 --> 00:00:08.437 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 109 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:08.497 --> 00:00:12.337 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of The Virtual Couch podcast, 00:00:12.477 --> 00:00:17.757 as well as Love ADHD and the premium question and answer episode of Waking Up 00:00:17.757 --> 00:00:21.797 to Narcissism that I would love for you to go find that and sign up, subscribe for that. 00:00:21.917 --> 00:00:26.097 If you'd be so kind, sign up for my newsletter. You can find a link to that 00:00:26.097 --> 00:00:31.637 in the link tree in the notes of this podcast, or just go to tonyoverbay.com and the newsletter. 00:00:31.857 --> 00:00:37.897 So I want to start today with something that I read in a group post recently. 00:00:38.337 --> 00:00:43.357 And here was the post. And I've changed a little bit just for the sake of the 00:00:43.357 --> 00:00:46.137 therapist in me to sneeze side. I want things to be a little bit more confidential. 00:00:46.257 --> 00:00:50.477 So I've changed a little bit of this. So the person said, have any of you noticed 00:00:50.477 --> 00:00:55.957 individuals with narcissistic traits or emotional immaturity tending to gravitate 00:00:55.957 --> 00:00:58.877 toward certain self-help or philosophical books. 00:00:59.317 --> 00:01:03.657 And they said, it's interesting to see how some of them may use these teachings 00:01:03.657 --> 00:01:08.757 or, or even social media messages that blame others for relationship issues. 00:01:09.397 --> 00:01:13.177 They said, I, they said, I've observed this pattern, not just personally, 00:01:13.257 --> 00:01:16.417 but also in professional context, such as a client going through a divorce with 00:01:16.417 --> 00:01:17.757 somebody who consumes similar content. 00:01:18.037 --> 00:01:22.197 They said, have you had similar observations? What books or philosophies or 00:01:22.197 --> 00:01:25.837 social social media accounts, have you seen being twisted into justifications 00:01:25.837 --> 00:01:29.977 for their behavior, their behavior being the emotionally immature or the narcissist. 00:01:30.577 --> 00:01:34.717 And so then somebody had posted this and I thought this was just really well said. 00:01:34.777 --> 00:01:40.257 They said, in my opinion, everything can spark creativity or serve as inspiration. 00:01:40.437 --> 00:01:42.577 What really matters is how we use that inspiration. 00:01:42.817 --> 00:01:46.137 Do we take bits and pieces that resonate with us and incorporate them into our 00:01:46.137 --> 00:01:48.957 own story, seeing how they can support our own goals? 00:01:49.097 --> 00:01:53.277 Or do we encounter something that makes us uncomfortable, which prompts us to 00:01:53.277 --> 00:01:55.577 ask ourselves, what does this stir up in me and why? 00:01:55.937 --> 00:02:00.077 Because then this leads to a moment of self-reflection, and that's when the real work begins. 00:02:00.337 --> 00:02:04.037 Now, on the other hand, somebody who's maybe not as emotionally mature might 00:02:04.037 --> 00:02:07.637 take this information, only hold on to the parts that make them feel good about 00:02:07.637 --> 00:02:13.177 themselves, and then use what they've learned to criticize or harm others. 00:02:13.857 --> 00:02:18.917 So I just thought that sounded like perfect material to talk about on the podcast today. 00:02:19.337 --> 00:02:23.337 You can take some information, some data, some self-help books, 00:02:23.537 --> 00:02:28.217 even the words of a therapist on a podcast, and then if they make you have some 00:02:28.217 --> 00:02:31.797 feelings, do you then look at that introspective and say, okay, 00:02:31.817 --> 00:02:33.797 is there anything here that I could use to help me grow? 00:02:34.097 --> 00:02:38.197 Or do you say, oh, I could use that and it's something maybe that I could throw 00:02:38.197 --> 00:02:42.237 at another person, weaponize that. So I think in today's episode, 00:02:42.357 --> 00:02:47.877 I want to take a look at this topic of can self-help and philosophical books that are. 00:02:48.498 --> 00:02:53.718 I would imagine intended by the authors for growth, then be taken, 00:02:53.898 --> 00:02:57.678 maybe misinterpreted or misused by those with narcissistic traits and tendencies 00:02:57.678 --> 00:02:58.918 or extreme emotional immaturity. 00:02:59.458 --> 00:03:04.518 And so then what happens when this pursuit of wisdom starts to become a tool 00:03:04.518 --> 00:03:07.298 for justification rather than introspection? 00:03:07.438 --> 00:03:12.178 Because I see my own words being used in this way often, where one of my favorite 00:03:12.178 --> 00:03:15.138 things to say is if you are asking yourself if you are the narcissist, 00:03:15.478 --> 00:03:20.558 you're not. And then I was talking with somebody this week, and they made such a good point. 00:03:20.618 --> 00:03:23.958 They said, okay, I took that concept that you said, because this is a person 00:03:23.958 --> 00:03:29.418 who is the pathologically kind person who is still years past getting out of 00:03:29.418 --> 00:03:30.278 an unhealthy relationship, 00:03:30.438 --> 00:03:33.998 saying, I still find myself wondering if I am, which is even more proof that 00:03:33.998 --> 00:03:36.518 you're not. not, but they were talking about being a good parent. 00:03:36.678 --> 00:03:40.698 And then they just said, okay, the fact that I care is that I, 00:03:40.738 --> 00:03:44.098 if I am, or if I'm not, is my motivation to become better. 00:03:44.338 --> 00:03:49.898 They said they finally resonated. They felt that with regard to the concept of, am I the narcissist? 00:03:49.998 --> 00:03:53.338 They're saying, if I am continually trying to work on and figure this out, 00:03:53.398 --> 00:03:54.718 then yeah, I guess I'm not. 00:03:54.998 --> 00:03:58.378 But the person who hears me say that, if you're asking yourself, 00:03:58.538 --> 00:04:00.478 if you're the narcissist, then you're not. And the person says, 00:04:00.638 --> 00:04:02.758 well, why don't I try that? Am I the narcissist? 00:04:03.378 --> 00:04:06.838 Well, I did it. So now I'm going to go tell my spouse, hey, Tony said, 00:04:07.018 --> 00:04:08.898 if you ask yourself that, then you're not. 00:04:09.018 --> 00:04:11.518 So I did do that. Check that box. I'm not. 00:04:11.978 --> 00:04:15.298 So now what are you going to do to fix the relationship? 00:04:15.498 --> 00:04:19.518 We're kind of back to that. that. So then how do individuals with narcissistic 00:04:19.518 --> 00:04:24.778 traits or emotional immature traits and tendencies, how do they interact with 00:04:24.778 --> 00:04:26.678 certain philosophies in particular? 00:04:26.738 --> 00:04:31.278 And especially what we're going to use today as a bit of our muse is Stoicism. 00:04:31.738 --> 00:04:37.358 Because I have recently become more intrigued by the concepts of Stoicism. 00:04:37.658 --> 00:04:43.218 And so one of the people in this group where this post was had had talked about 00:04:43.218 --> 00:04:48.678 in particular, some of the Stoic philosophies and how then they were used against somebody else, 00:04:48.858 --> 00:04:53.838 which is pretty counter to the concepts of Stoicism to begin with. 00:04:54.258 --> 00:05:00.138 So I want to explore this. It'll look a bit like a fine line between using teaching 00:05:00.138 --> 00:05:04.298 self-help tools for self-improvement and then weaponizing them against others. 00:05:04.738 --> 00:05:08.198 And I'm curious then if you sit right now and think about it, 00:05:08.218 --> 00:05:12.358 have you ever noticed somebody somebody that is using the guise of self-improvement 00:05:12.358 --> 00:05:14.378 to maybe actually avoid personal accountability. 00:05:15.775 --> 00:05:18.335 Because I'll give you some examples of that today, some real-life scenarios. 00:05:18.635 --> 00:05:20.335 So let me go back to that quote that I started with. 00:05:20.835 --> 00:05:27.835 And yes, I want to continue to be so caught up in myself as to continue and marvel at this quote. 00:05:28.175 --> 00:05:30.955 But that's because I was quoting myself. 00:05:31.395 --> 00:05:34.675 That was something that I had written in this group, and I just found it hilarious. 00:05:34.875 --> 00:05:38.695 One of the things I feel like I promised myself I would never do back before 00:05:38.695 --> 00:05:41.975 I had a book or had podcasts was I would hear somebody say, say, 00:05:41.975 --> 00:05:44.935 you know, in my book in chapter eight, or on one of my podcasts, 00:05:45.075 --> 00:05:48.355 I said, and then I find that I do that from time to time, but it's coming from 00:05:48.355 --> 00:05:50.275 a place of, hey, here's some information. 00:05:50.415 --> 00:05:53.235 And I don't really remember how I said it. But if I pull the transcript out, 00:05:53.335 --> 00:05:54.935 here's what I said, what do you think? 00:05:55.055 --> 00:05:58.455 And but I feel like that's a similar thing. But now let's reread that quote. 00:05:59.435 --> 00:06:02.035 And now in the context of where you know, this episode is going today. 00:06:02.095 --> 00:06:04.075 So in my opinion, it really is my opinion. 00:06:04.635 --> 00:06:07.915 Everything can spark creativity or can serve as an inspiration. 00:06:08.115 --> 00:06:11.835 This is that concept of everything is an opportunity for me to self-confront 00:06:11.835 --> 00:06:14.815 and grow if I take ownership that it is in fact a me thing. 00:06:15.135 --> 00:06:18.195 What really matters is how we use that inspiration. 00:06:18.455 --> 00:06:22.015 Do we take little bits and pieces that resonate with us and then incorporate 00:06:22.015 --> 00:06:25.395 them into our own story and only see how that can support our goals? 00:06:25.535 --> 00:06:29.795 Because that sounds pretty cool, but if I'm buffet style and things, 00:06:29.955 --> 00:06:35.735 which that is okay if I'm owning up to or saying that these are part of my individualized 00:06:35.735 --> 00:06:37.535 treatment plan to help me become a better person. 00:06:37.775 --> 00:06:41.055 If I'm saying, okay, I can use that to make that person feel bad, 00:06:41.135 --> 00:06:45.095 or I can use this concept to then get out of this jam, then that's a version 00:06:45.095 --> 00:06:46.675 of a, that's a pretty crummy buffet. 00:06:46.795 --> 00:06:50.115 I was about to give a place of a buffet that, or I don't know, 00:06:50.175 --> 00:06:53.175 the mac and cheese has that like glaze over it. And it's, is that really ham 00:06:53.175 --> 00:06:54.035 what you're looking at there? 00:06:54.175 --> 00:06:57.455 And the only thing you're going to eat are the mashed potatoes and the rolls. You got that version. 00:06:57.535 --> 00:07:00.775 And then you've got the, just, I remember going to this seafood buffet at the 00:07:00.775 --> 00:07:03.995 Rio when I was in the computer industry where it got more and more expensive, 00:07:03.995 --> 00:07:08.155 But I've never eaten more lobster tails and drawn butter and whatever in my 00:07:08.155 --> 00:07:10.295 whole life. Which kind of buffet are we talking about? 00:07:11.115 --> 00:07:14.935 So another thing that happens is when we see something or we read something 00:07:14.935 --> 00:07:17.595 or we hear something, then do we encounter it? 00:07:17.655 --> 00:07:22.095 And it makes us feel uncomfortable, which then there's a couple of directions we can go there. 00:07:22.215 --> 00:07:25.355 Do we want to get rid of the discomfort or does that prompt us to ask ourselves, 00:07:25.475 --> 00:07:26.815 what does this stir up in me and why? 00:07:27.375 --> 00:07:31.835 Because that is what leads to a moment of self-reflection. And that's when the real work begins. 00:07:32.375 --> 00:07:36.195 So on the other hand, somebody who is not as emotionally mature might then take 00:07:36.195 --> 00:07:37.375 the information, whatever it is, 00:07:37.903 --> 00:07:40.763 Only hold on to the parts that make them feel good about themselves and then 00:07:40.763 --> 00:07:43.423 use what they've learned to actually criticize and harm others. 00:07:43.503 --> 00:07:48.723 They're throwing that weird mac and cheese at somebody else across the buffet. 00:07:49.003 --> 00:07:52.883 So let me quickly touch on the concept of a muse because I know I say that often 00:07:52.883 --> 00:07:56.143 and I think it really is a powerful tool when you recognize where I'm going 00:07:56.143 --> 00:07:59.143 with that concept of everything is an opportunity to self-confront. 00:07:59.143 --> 00:08:00.863 Everything becomes my muse. 00:08:01.003 --> 00:08:06.643 An article can be my muse or a song can be or the smell of whatever it is at 00:08:06.643 --> 00:08:08.923 a buffet can bring up some big emotions in me. 00:08:09.083 --> 00:08:13.123 And then I want to share a concept with you that my friend Preston threw out 00:08:13.123 --> 00:08:14.583 on a coaching call for the first 00:08:14.583 --> 00:08:17.863 time we ever did my magnetic marriage course that I've used so often. 00:08:17.963 --> 00:08:21.703 And it's this concept of listening with your elbow. So first, the muse. 00:08:22.743 --> 00:08:26.543 If you can think of a muse as anything that gets your creative juices flowing, 00:08:26.743 --> 00:08:30.283 it could It could be the vibe of a restaurant or I know that my daughter, 00:08:30.323 --> 00:08:34.143 Sydney, when she wants to edit our TikTok live, she likes to go to a coffee 00:08:34.143 --> 00:08:36.783 shop and just kind of get in that vibe. And that is her muse. 00:08:37.103 --> 00:08:42.523 Or for some people, they need chaos. They want to sit outside and sidewalk cafe 00:08:42.523 --> 00:08:47.463 by a busy street or maybe even the ups and downs of your own life. 00:08:47.523 --> 00:08:50.903 Once you really are recognizing that you're okay, you're not broken, you're human. 00:08:51.003 --> 00:08:53.783 And then everything that you're doing, everything that you're interacting with 00:08:53.783 --> 00:08:56.703 really is your muse to help you understand what's going on. 00:08:57.163 --> 00:09:02.083 Artists, you can hear them maybe get sparked by a sunset or a song. 00:09:02.683 --> 00:09:06.963 Writers could be hit with inspiration from a random chat that they overheard, 00:09:07.023 --> 00:09:08.823 something funky they saw online. 00:09:09.143 --> 00:09:14.263 And literally me reading this post, I just thought, oh, I really want to run 00:09:14.263 --> 00:09:16.303 with this and I want to create some content on it. 00:09:16.483 --> 00:09:20.283 Because basically, if something makes you think or feel anything, 00:09:20.703 --> 00:09:23.843 but in particular, if it makes you feel a little bit deeply or it gives you 00:09:23.843 --> 00:09:28.183 that that little dopamine bump, or it makes you feel a bit put off, it's your muse. 00:09:28.323 --> 00:09:31.343 And it's calling you to create something from it. 00:09:31.403 --> 00:09:35.983 It is an opportunity to grow, to self-confront. And just to know that the muse 00:09:35.983 --> 00:09:40.263 could also help you recognize that you're okay. Because if you feel. 00:09:41.261 --> 00:09:45.721 Your heart rate elevating, and you recognize that something is maybe unsafe, 00:09:46.041 --> 00:09:50.041 then all right, that muse is telling me that I need to really pay attention. 00:09:50.221 --> 00:09:53.081 Maybe something's dangerous, or this is a familiar feeling, or I'm put in a 00:09:53.081 --> 00:09:55.561 familiar position that I've been in the past where I didn't have control. 00:09:56.141 --> 00:09:59.201 But there can also be the concept of where if somebody's telling you something 00:09:59.201 --> 00:10:03.781 about yourself that you know you have worked on, then it actually is a chance 00:10:03.781 --> 00:10:07.061 for you to sit there and say, okay, actually, I feel pretty confident now. 00:10:07.301 --> 00:10:09.821 Or in the past, this was was something that if somebody would have said to me, 00:10:09.881 --> 00:10:14.081 I would get defensive and I would shut down or I would gaslight or project or 00:10:14.081 --> 00:10:14.901 whatever that would look like. 00:10:15.341 --> 00:10:18.101 So now let's talk about the whole idea of don't listen with your elbow. 00:10:18.501 --> 00:10:22.781 So imagine you are just sitting there with your partner and you're watching 00:10:22.781 --> 00:10:24.261 a video or listening to a podcast. 00:10:24.861 --> 00:10:28.681 And it's something that is meant to make you think or improve yourself. 00:10:28.841 --> 00:10:31.701 But the two of you are maybe doing this together, or you could even be listening 00:10:31.701 --> 00:10:33.321 to something or watching something on your own. 00:10:33.861 --> 00:10:38.221 But if you immediately think, oh my, my wife really really needs to hear this. 00:10:38.241 --> 00:10:39.361 That would really help her. 00:10:39.941 --> 00:10:42.681 It's basically, it's like I'm poking her with my elbow going, 00:10:42.821 --> 00:10:45.541 hey, did you get that? Did you hear that? I think you could really resonate 00:10:45.541 --> 00:10:47.461 with that. You really need to hear this. 00:10:48.421 --> 00:10:52.301 But instead, that kind of goes up against, well, I guess it's still, 00:10:52.401 --> 00:10:53.561 it's bringing something up in you. 00:10:53.601 --> 00:10:57.021 But now all of a sudden you think, I don't want to do anything about this, 00:10:57.061 --> 00:10:58.841 but how about you take care of it to your partner? 00:10:59.590 --> 00:11:02.910 It's like when you're listening to a podcast about being a better listener, 00:11:02.990 --> 00:11:06.510 instead of using it as a chance to silently tell your partner that they are 00:11:06.510 --> 00:11:10.430 terrible at listening, you think about how you can step up your own listening game. 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:15.110 So it really is about soaking up wisdom for yourself, not as a sneaky way to 00:11:15.110 --> 00:11:16.510 tell somebody else that they need to change. 00:11:17.030 --> 00:11:20.650 Now, if you really think it's something that resonates, then maybe you can ask 00:11:20.650 --> 00:11:22.590 questions. Hey, what'd you think about that podcast? 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:26.490 And if the person said, yeah, I didn't really get it, then maybe there's a nice 00:11:26.490 --> 00:11:29.150 healthy way to say, hey, do you mind if I take you on my train of thought? lot. 00:11:29.170 --> 00:11:31.810 And then I feel like this really resonated with me. 00:11:31.870 --> 00:11:34.890 And I know that's something that I can really work on, but I can't say that 00:11:34.890 --> 00:11:39.090 in hopes that then, so hopefully they'll get it because that's not the point. 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:43.850 I often, when we're listening with our elbow, that is a time where we are in 00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:47.450 essence trying to weaponize something, be it a podcast, an article, 00:11:47.590 --> 00:11:49.130 a book, a show, anything like that. 00:11:49.810 --> 00:11:53.510 So when we circle back to that whole bit about inspiration and muses, 00:11:53.510 --> 00:11:58.130 then it really is how we use what fires us up. 00:11:58.450 --> 00:12:02.910 Do we let things challenge and change us? Or do we just pick out the real comfy 00:12:02.910 --> 00:12:04.030 parts and ignore the rest? 00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:10.650 And it's a big no-no to then twist those insights into a way to point fingers 00:12:10.650 --> 00:12:14.910 at others, especially the people that are close to you, while we just skip out 00:12:14.910 --> 00:12:15.750 looking at our own stuff. 00:12:15.910 --> 00:12:21.030 Because growing and learning, and this can be difficult, It's a personal journey. 00:12:21.330 --> 00:12:25.610 It is, at the end of the day, it's a you thing. It is. And I'm saying that as a good way. 00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:30.070 Now, absolutely, we would love for our partners to be a part of that and grow. 00:12:30.250 --> 00:12:34.170 And we can have these mutually reciprocal relationships and shared experiences. 00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:38.390 But I know that a lot of people that are listening to this podcast don't have 00:12:38.390 --> 00:12:40.730 those relationships and maybe don't even really know what that looks like. 00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:45.790 It's almost our default to try to still say, man, if I can just get them to understand. 00:12:46.290 --> 00:12:49.610 But at some point it's dropping the rope with a tug-of-war with that and recognizing 00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:52.990 I need to understand. I need to be my best version of myself. 00:12:53.936 --> 00:12:58.176 It's, it really becomes important to focus on your own path of growth. 00:12:58.556 --> 00:13:01.876 And then by really listening, thinking about how stuff affects you, 00:13:02.016 --> 00:13:06.096 instead of nudging your partner to pay attention, then you start to open the 00:13:06.096 --> 00:13:08.336 door to real change, internal change. And then who knows? 00:13:08.496 --> 00:13:11.956 I mean, the, I, I struggle with this a little bit and we'll talk about this 00:13:11.956 --> 00:13:17.016 more in future episodes, but if, if I was ever going to influence, 00:13:17.276 --> 00:13:20.956 then maybe that would come from a place where I am, I am good. it. 00:13:20.976 --> 00:13:23.316 I am doing and being and becoming the very best version of myself, 00:13:23.396 --> 00:13:26.916 but I can't do it so that my partner will then change. 00:13:27.076 --> 00:13:31.556 I have to do it for me. I want to read a few, and we're going to go into the world of Stoicism. 00:13:31.736 --> 00:13:36.136 And I'll talk about a few of the Stoic philosophers, and then I will give a 00:13:36.136 --> 00:13:38.696 modern rephrasing of a Stoic philosophy. 00:13:38.996 --> 00:13:42.636 And then I want to talk about what that would look like if you took that in 00:13:42.636 --> 00:13:45.176 and then really, here's what it could look like in a healthy relationship, 00:13:45.416 --> 00:13:47.096 the concepts of the principles. 00:13:47.276 --> 00:13:51.156 And then here's what that would look like from from somebody who's emotionally 00:13:51.156 --> 00:13:53.256 immature and who is weaponizing the phrase. 00:13:53.616 --> 00:13:58.896 Before we get started, let me give you a quick overview or description of Stoicism. 00:13:59.116 --> 00:14:03.796 It's a type of philosophy that started back in ancient Greece around the 3rd century BC. 00:14:04.176 --> 00:14:08.996 It was about trying to stay calm, being pretty emotionally consistent and mature. 00:14:09.556 --> 00:14:12.976 No matter what life throws at you. And the main idea, I think, 00:14:12.996 --> 00:14:13.596 is pretty straightforward. 00:14:13.896 --> 00:14:16.976 It's that things happen in your life that you can't control, 00:14:16.976 --> 00:14:20.476 But what you can control is how you react to it. 00:14:20.656 --> 00:14:24.896 So, Stoicism has a lot of different ways, phrases, sayings that teach you how 00:14:24.896 --> 00:14:30.696 to stay calm or maybe make wise choices and learn how to be more present, 00:14:30.796 --> 00:14:33.696 be more accepting of the things that are happening. 00:14:33.696 --> 00:14:38.876 There was a guy named Zeno of Citium, and he is the one who kicked things off with Stoicism. 00:14:39.296 --> 00:14:42.416 And then the philosophy, the more that he spoke about it, became really practical 00:14:42.416 --> 00:14:46.116 because it's more about action and how to live a good life and how to be a good 00:14:46.116 --> 00:14:49.376 person, how to deal with tough times without losing your mind, 00:14:49.436 --> 00:14:52.676 which is really pretty amazing. That was happening in 3rd B.C. 00:14:53.451 --> 00:14:57.711 Because we're struggling with that now. That's that concept of being emotionally 00:14:57.711 --> 00:14:59.091 immature and being overly reactive 00:14:59.091 --> 00:15:01.711 and not wanting to sit with any kind of discomfort or take ownership. 00:15:02.151 --> 00:15:06.471 So then over time, it spread from Greece to Rome. And there are people that 00:15:06.471 --> 00:15:08.871 you've probably heard of, like maybe not. 00:15:08.911 --> 00:15:12.011 I know one of them, Marcus Aurelius, is a big name in Stoicism, 00:15:12.211 --> 00:15:13.891 but also Seneca and Epictetus. 00:15:14.251 --> 00:15:16.971 And they started to write more about it. 00:15:17.011 --> 00:15:19.331 And so then the word started to spread the more that they wrote. 00:15:19.331 --> 00:15:23.871 In a nutshell, Stoicism is about learning to, I guess, in essence, 00:15:23.971 --> 00:15:28.571 master your emotions, but more it's focusing on what you can control that then 00:15:28.571 --> 00:15:30.251 hopefully will lead you to a better life. 00:15:30.431 --> 00:15:32.651 And I believe that these concepts, when you hear some of these, 00:15:32.791 --> 00:15:34.651 they do still resonate today. day. 00:15:35.071 --> 00:15:39.811 So the first one that I want to talk about is from Seneca. Seneca said, 00:15:39.911 --> 00:15:40.791 don't suffer in advance. 00:15:41.071 --> 00:15:44.551 Seneca reminds us that we often suffer more in our imagination than in reality. 00:15:45.271 --> 00:15:49.371 Anxiety, for example, is often caused by anticipating what could happen in the 00:15:49.371 --> 00:15:51.551 future and then torturing ourselves with worry. 00:15:51.851 --> 00:15:57.151 So Seneca said, instead, try to live in the present moment and deal with things as they come. 00:15:57.451 --> 00:16:02.071 I jotted down a modern rephrasing, and it's that we usually stress out more 00:16:02.071 --> 00:16:05.031 in our head than actually what happens in real life. 00:16:05.371 --> 00:16:08.791 And so much of our anxiety comes from worrying about what might happen tomorrow 00:16:08.791 --> 00:16:12.471 or next week or even further down the road, which that makes ourselves pretty 00:16:12.471 --> 00:16:14.311 miserable in the process today. 00:16:14.731 --> 00:16:20.151 So it's better to start to focus on the here and now and then handle things as they happen. 00:16:20.811 --> 00:16:25.031 Huacinica, also known as Lucius Ananias Seneca, if he was in trouble with his 00:16:25.031 --> 00:16:28.931 mom, was this very smart Roman guy who did a lot of of everything, 00:16:29.031 --> 00:16:30.911 philosophy, politics, even playwriting. 00:16:31.071 --> 00:16:33.231 And this was around the first century CE. 00:16:33.951 --> 00:16:37.491 Seneca was the kind of guy who wrote a lot about how to live a good life and 00:16:37.491 --> 00:16:40.191 then tackling everything from how to deal with tough times, how to be happy, 00:16:40.271 --> 00:16:43.691 all with a real, at that time, a very practical twist. 00:16:44.467 --> 00:16:48.227 But he was all about making these stoic ideas something you can actually use, 00:16:48.427 --> 00:16:51.087 not just thinking about, because it was starting out as a philosophy. 00:16:51.447 --> 00:16:55.107 Let me give you a real life example. Imagine a couple, we'll call them Alex 00:16:55.107 --> 00:16:57.767 and Jamie, and they've been planning a road trip for months. 00:16:57.907 --> 00:17:01.807 So as the date gets closer, Jamie starts worrying about all the things that 00:17:01.807 --> 00:17:03.907 could go wrong. What if the car breaks down? What if they get lost? 00:17:04.167 --> 00:17:05.007 What if one of them gets sick? 00:17:05.267 --> 00:17:10.227 And so her anxiety starts to affect their daily life and it starts to cause tension between them. 00:17:10.807 --> 00:17:14.387 Now, Alex, on the other hand, he is doing some work, some self-care, 00:17:14.467 --> 00:17:18.227 starts to focus on the excitement of the adventure, prepares for what they can, 00:17:18.507 --> 00:17:22.187 and then decides that, okay, I'm accepting that I will deal with other things 00:17:22.187 --> 00:17:24.187 and problems if and when they occur. 00:17:24.647 --> 00:17:28.407 So that's those teachings of Seneca. So this approach, it will help him enjoy 00:17:28.407 --> 00:17:30.827 their time together leading up to the trip. 00:17:30.847 --> 00:17:34.107 It strengthens the relationship instead of letting these unfounded worries drive them apart. 00:17:34.107 --> 00:17:37.507 And what's so important about learning how to work and interact in the present 00:17:37.507 --> 00:17:43.327 moment is the more that they can do to find a connection and trust and build 00:17:43.327 --> 00:17:45.987 that relationship in the present, 00:17:46.127 --> 00:17:50.627 in the here and now, it will greatly impact if and when things come up in the 00:17:50.627 --> 00:17:54.007 future because we're on the same team, we're on the same page. 00:17:54.007 --> 00:17:59.287 So, the emotionally immature interpretation of this or how one would weaponize 00:17:59.287 --> 00:18:02.587 it, an emotionally immature person, like in this scenario, it's Jamie, 00:18:02.727 --> 00:18:07.687 might use Seneca's advice then as an excuse to avoid discussing and preparing 00:18:07.687 --> 00:18:09.167 for the future challenge in the relationship. 00:18:09.167 --> 00:18:11.367 Because they could say, well, why worry about that now? 00:18:11.567 --> 00:18:15.047 Let's just live in the moment, even when the issue at hand requires attention and planning. 00:18:15.287 --> 00:18:19.307 Because now they can use it as a way to avoid or it can be a way to dodge responsibility, 00:18:19.627 --> 00:18:22.647 which then will eventually leave their partner feeling unsupported and anxious 00:18:22.647 --> 00:18:23.867 about the future and probably having 00:18:23.867 --> 00:18:28.687 to do more than they would need to if things do arise in the future. 00:18:29.267 --> 00:18:31.967 So what would that look like from a growth-oriented interpretation? 00:18:32.267 --> 00:18:35.627 That if somebody is looking to grow from Seneca's wisdom, like Alex in this 00:18:35.627 --> 00:18:39.067 scenario, they would recognize that the value is in not letting hypothetical 00:18:39.067 --> 00:18:40.587 worries cloud the present. 00:18:40.747 --> 00:18:43.547 But they would also understand that we do need to be prepared. 00:18:43.827 --> 00:18:47.147 So they would use the quote from Seneca to calm their partner's fears. 00:18:47.227 --> 00:18:49.987 It suggests, okay, why don't we focus on what we can control? 00:18:50.247 --> 00:18:52.947 That's the key. And we'll deal with the challenges as they come. 00:18:53.127 --> 00:18:56.447 Now, Alex is providing emotional stability, safety. safety. 00:18:57.107 --> 00:19:01.787 So hopefully Jamie can lean in to that, his presence. So that approach, 00:19:01.967 --> 00:19:06.067 it not only will help reduce the anxiety, but it does, it creates this supportive 00:19:06.067 --> 00:19:10.007 and understanding in the relationship where both people feel heard and valued. 00:19:10.127 --> 00:19:14.307 They learn to differentiate between unnecessary worry and constructive planning, 00:19:14.487 --> 00:19:18.747 and that will lead to personal growth. It just leads to a stronger bond. 00:19:18.987 --> 00:19:22.267 The next example actually comes from Winston Churchill. This one plays into 00:19:22.267 --> 00:19:26.467 my concepts around raising one's emotional baseline. Okay, Churchill said... 00:19:27.228 --> 00:19:31.308 Find a hobby. Churchill believed in the power of hobbies as a way to find solace and relaxation. 00:19:31.748 --> 00:19:34.708 So, if you are engaging in activities that bring you joy and allow you to rest 00:19:34.708 --> 00:19:39.048 your mind, then that can help you alleviate anxiety and worry when you are interacting 00:19:39.048 --> 00:19:41.008 with the world and having to make these big decisions. 00:19:41.808 --> 00:19:45.788 So, that modern rephrasing is really saying, okay, I need to look at hobbies 00:19:45.788 --> 00:19:48.128 as a way to relax, find peace. 00:19:48.308 --> 00:19:52.068 And if I dive into these activities that make me happy, it gives my brain a 00:19:52.068 --> 00:19:54.628 break and that will help me ease stress and anxiety. 00:19:54.628 --> 00:19:59.528 And in my therapy modality, acceptance and commitment therapy, 00:19:59.608 --> 00:20:02.788 if we can find things that really make us feel a sense of purpose, 00:20:02.948 --> 00:20:05.328 and it's based on our own values, 00:20:05.568 --> 00:20:10.728 then this can be an incredible thing that you can do to raise that emotional baseline. line. 00:20:11.188 --> 00:20:13.968 So let's talk about, we'll call them Sam and Taylor. 00:20:14.128 --> 00:20:16.668 So here's a couple that's been feeling the weight of their schedules. 00:20:16.728 --> 00:20:20.828 They were very busy, but then they start snapping at each other over little 00:20:20.828 --> 00:20:22.888 things. So we know it's not about the little things. 00:20:22.928 --> 00:20:26.968 It's about the fact that they both feel pretty overwhelmed and emotionally maybe worn out. 00:20:27.448 --> 00:20:30.948 So that's a sign that there's some underlying stress and tension. 00:20:31.819 --> 00:20:34.959 So if you look at Churchill's advice, then they decide, okay, 00:20:34.999 --> 00:20:37.619 let's find hobbies that we can enjoy either separately or together. 00:20:37.979 --> 00:20:41.799 Sam gets into gardening. Sam finds peace in the quiet of nature, 00:20:41.919 --> 00:20:43.499 the satisfaction of nurturing plants. 00:20:43.939 --> 00:20:47.179 Taylor starts painting, using it as an outlet for creativity and expression. 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:50.819 And so then on weekends, sometimes they paint together, they work in the garden. 00:20:50.959 --> 00:20:54.239 So those hobbies become their escape. It's a way to recharge. It's a way to find joy. 00:20:54.679 --> 00:20:57.539 What happens? They're more relaxed. They communicate better. 00:20:57.659 --> 00:21:00.519 The relationship strengthens because they found a way to unwind and share new 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.799 experiences without feeling threatened in the relationship. 00:21:04.139 --> 00:21:06.339 What does that look like for the emotionally immature? 00:21:06.719 --> 00:21:10.079 How would they reinterpret this or weaponize this? 00:21:10.239 --> 00:21:14.759 So an emotionally immature person would probably twist Churchill's advice to 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.599 then justify selfish behavior. 00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:20.259 So just an example, they could pick up some time-consuming hobby. 00:21:20.419 --> 00:21:23.219 I like golf, but I feel like that one just came to mind first. 00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:28.699 But then it takes hours or days and then they neglect their partner and they're 00:21:28.699 --> 00:21:31.919 like, Hey, I'm just following what Churchill said. That's what you gave me the article. 00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:35.519 That's what I need to do to relieve stress. I'm just doing what's needed for my mental health. 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:39.379 And they might say that using the hobby as an excuse to avoid spending time 00:21:39.379 --> 00:21:41.579 with their partner or dodging responsibilities at home. 00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:46.819 So that more selfish interpretation would probably lead to feelings of neglect 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:48.379 and resentment in their partner. 00:21:48.959 --> 00:21:51.679 So then if you look at that, though, and you've got more of this growth-oriented 00:21:51.679 --> 00:21:53.659 interpretation over how can this make me better? 00:21:53.899 --> 00:21:56.959 So on that flip side, somebody that's looking to grow would see Churchill's 00:21:56.959 --> 00:21:59.959 advice as an an opportunity to enhance their life and their relationship. 00:22:00.139 --> 00:22:03.859 So they might choose a hobby that not only serves as a personal stress reliever, 00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:09.019 but if I go back to that ACT modality, it might actually enrich their connection 00:22:09.019 --> 00:22:12.039 with themselves, with life, maybe even with their partner. 00:22:12.259 --> 00:22:16.099 And then maybe that would lead them to encourage their partner to find a hobby 00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:19.299 and that show and support for each of your individual needs, 00:22:19.439 --> 00:22:23.379 but also finding a way to connect over shared interest and expressing curiosity 00:22:23.379 --> 00:22:27.319 about why somebody picks the thing they do, because that is a them thing in a good way. 00:22:28.236 --> 00:22:30.436 That approach, that one's going to lead to personal development. 00:22:30.576 --> 00:22:33.376 You're going to have a deeper understanding of each other, a stronger, 00:22:33.396 --> 00:22:34.256 more supportive relationship. 00:22:34.756 --> 00:22:37.016 And so then you start to recognize hobbies aren't just an escape, 00:22:37.136 --> 00:22:39.696 but they are a way to build a richer, more balanced life. 00:22:40.136 --> 00:22:42.816 That's part of that codependent. If you're okay, I'm okay. 00:22:43.296 --> 00:22:46.456 Independent. One of you is just being okay in the relationship and really doesn't 00:22:46.456 --> 00:22:47.276 care about the other person. 00:22:47.616 --> 00:22:51.296 But interdependent is where you are two completely whole people that are in 00:22:51.296 --> 00:22:52.016 a relationship together. 00:22:52.296 --> 00:22:55.676 So now you're not threatened by what the other person is doing, but you're curious. 00:22:55.776 --> 00:22:59.256 You have become choosable And now you're inviting that person to come along 00:22:59.256 --> 00:23:02.176 with you because you're a good hang. Let's get to the next one. 00:23:02.896 --> 00:23:07.396 Okay. I like this one. This one is Epictetus. So we'll talk a little bit about 00:23:07.396 --> 00:23:10.336 Epictetus, but Epictetus said, accept your flaws. 00:23:10.876 --> 00:23:15.056 Epictetus says it's okay to look, I love this. It's okay to look silly and not know everything. 00:23:15.136 --> 00:23:17.956 If it means you're going to get better, it's back to the old, 00:23:18.036 --> 00:23:20.396 it's of course, we don't know what we don't know. 00:23:20.636 --> 00:23:24.916 And it is okay to deal with the discomfort of failure, embarrassment, you name it. 00:23:25.716 --> 00:23:28.836 But Epictetus said, don't shy away from messing up or showing your true self 00:23:28.836 --> 00:23:32.816 because it is by making mistakes and being open that we grow and we learn. 00:23:33.556 --> 00:23:38.376 So modern rephrasing, accept your flaws, accept your whole self. 00:23:38.996 --> 00:23:41.796 It is okay to look silly. It is okay to not know everything. 00:23:41.896 --> 00:23:46.056 It's okay to say, I don't know. Don't shy away from something that you may not do well. 00:23:46.756 --> 00:23:49.556 It's okay to not be amazing and wonderful at things. 00:23:49.736 --> 00:23:52.516 You have to develop those talents and you won't even know if you have a potential 00:23:52.516 --> 00:23:55.236 to be good if you don't do something or interact with things. 00:23:55.576 --> 00:24:01.216 Show your true self because it's by making those mistakes and being open that we grow and we learn. 00:24:01.796 --> 00:24:06.836 Epictetus was a Greek Stoic philosopher who lived from around 50 AD to 135 AD, 00:24:06.976 --> 00:24:09.596 which is a pretty long time for that time frame. 00:24:09.816 --> 00:24:13.616 But Epictetus is not one who was born into privilege. He started off as a slave. 00:24:13.896 --> 00:24:18.196 So then that background gave him a very unique perspective on freedom and control 00:24:18.196 --> 00:24:24.056 Because he lived a life that he didn't have freedom and was absolutely controlled. 00:24:24.456 --> 00:24:28.476 He emphasizes the importance of focusing on what can we control, 00:24:28.636 --> 00:24:32.896 which is our own actions, our own responses, and then learning to let go of 00:24:32.896 --> 00:24:36.916 what we can't, which is pretty much everything else. He has the teachings in 00:24:36.916 --> 00:24:38.236 a book called Discourses. 00:24:38.256 --> 00:24:40.076 But those things work. 00:24:40.256 --> 00:24:43.556 They still are works that continue to influence modern thought on things like 00:24:43.556 --> 00:24:45.576 resilience and freedom and the art of living. 00:24:45.836 --> 00:24:49.376 So, Epictetus had this philosophy that is all about your inner strength, 00:24:49.556 --> 00:24:51.896 the power of the mind, the journey toward personal improvement, 00:24:52.096 --> 00:24:56.816 which I can't say this enough is so wild to think about that happening that long ago. 00:24:57.176 --> 00:25:00.576 And it still is so applicable today. I've got an example. 00:25:00.616 --> 00:25:04.816 We'll call the people Chris and Morgan, but it's a couple who they finally said, 00:25:04.916 --> 00:25:06.196 let's take dance classes together. 00:25:06.793 --> 00:25:10.813 Chris, a little bit hesitant, worried about looking very foolish, very silly. 00:25:10.893 --> 00:25:13.893 And when I picture this person, I can understand that. 00:25:13.913 --> 00:25:20.053 And I'm a guy that can't dance for squat, but I would love to see video of Chris dancing, but I digress. 00:25:20.493 --> 00:25:24.733 But then there was Morgan and Chris was really embarrassed to look silly in 00:25:24.733 --> 00:25:29.573 front of Morgan because Morgan's his partner and he just doesn't want to feel 00:25:29.573 --> 00:25:30.873 that shame or embarrassment. 00:25:31.353 --> 00:25:35.453 Morgan though, a dancer, excited, learning about the challenge and saw it as 00:25:35.453 --> 00:25:37.573 this is a chance to learn something new together. 00:25:37.973 --> 00:25:40.813 Let's embrace the inevitable missteps. They are going to happen. 00:25:40.913 --> 00:25:43.313 We're going to fall. We're going to not do things right. 00:25:43.633 --> 00:25:46.893 So then as they started the classes and Chris's fear of embarrassment actually 00:25:46.893 --> 00:25:51.033 then led to frustration and then which led to a reluctance to practice. 00:25:51.073 --> 00:25:55.913 But Morgan, an Epictetus fan encouraged Chris, Hey, let's laugh off the mistakes. 00:25:56.093 --> 00:26:00.073 Let's see them as a step on a path to improvement. You've never done this before. It's okay. 00:26:00.553 --> 00:26:03.413 So then over time, Chris starts to let go of the fear of judgment, 00:26:03.533 --> 00:26:07.113 starts to find joy in that that whole process rather than just the outcome. 00:26:07.413 --> 00:26:12.633 And this is not a Disney movie version where, and now Chris is one dancing with the stars. 00:26:12.773 --> 00:26:16.313 No, I think Chris probably is not a very good dancer, but the shift not only 00:26:16.313 --> 00:26:18.873 improved their dancing, but it brought them closer. 00:26:19.013 --> 00:26:21.993 They learned to support each other. They learned to encourage each other's vulnerabilities. 00:26:22.793 --> 00:26:26.733 So what would that look like weaponized? And I want you to know these again, 00:26:26.813 --> 00:26:28.633 they're coming based off of real life examples. 00:26:28.833 --> 00:26:33.133 And it's easy to go to the weaponization because these are things that we talked 00:26:33.133 --> 00:26:35.933 about, out because these are people that didn't know what they didn't know. 00:26:35.993 --> 00:26:37.513 And there's some immaturity on both sides. 00:26:37.953 --> 00:26:42.073 So an emotionally immature person, if they were given Epictetus's advice, 00:26:42.353 --> 00:26:44.413 they could weaponize that very quickly. 00:26:44.753 --> 00:26:47.593 They could say, okay, I'm not taking responsibility for my mistakes. 00:26:47.653 --> 00:26:49.293 Hey, I'm embracing my imperfection. 00:26:49.673 --> 00:26:53.833 But then that argument, I'm just learning and growing. So you can't criticize me. 00:26:53.893 --> 00:26:57.633 It comes off as passive aggressive and defensive, even if their actions negatively 00:26:57.633 --> 00:26:59.413 impact their partner or the relationship. relationship. 00:26:59.853 --> 00:27:03.473 So that's, it's more of a vibe. It's about energy, the attitude that can start 00:27:03.473 --> 00:27:07.193 to be a way to deflect criticism, to avoid accountability and then manipulate 00:27:07.193 --> 00:27:09.193 the partner into accepting poor behavior. 00:27:09.673 --> 00:27:12.153 Hey, it's, I made a mistake trying to embrace them. It's like, 00:27:12.213 --> 00:27:15.853 well, why do you keep making the same one that is the one where you go buy whatever 00:27:15.853 --> 00:27:19.073 you want and then you apologize and you say, I'll never do it again until you do it again. 00:27:19.533 --> 00:27:23.673 Yeah. Mistake. But at some point, Epictetus wasn't throwing that out there to 00:27:23.673 --> 00:27:24.853 say, what are you gonna do? 00:27:25.213 --> 00:27:28.533 No, you are going going to learn how to grow. If you look at a growth-oriented 00:27:28.533 --> 00:27:31.493 interpretation, then you got somebody genuinely inspired by Epictetus. 00:27:31.593 --> 00:27:33.733 They would understand that, okay, I got to embrace imperfection. 00:27:33.953 --> 00:27:36.433 I got to be open for feedback. I got to learn from my mistakes. 00:27:36.553 --> 00:27:38.053 They're going to happen. Of course, they're going to happen. 00:27:38.193 --> 00:27:39.773 I can't just make excuses for them. 00:27:40.073 --> 00:27:45.213 And they would then maybe apply this philosophy to their relationship by, drum roll, 00:27:45.413 --> 00:27:48.513 cue the dramatic music, admitting when they're wrong, saying they're sorry, 00:27:48.653 --> 00:27:52.713 asking for patience as they work on improving and actually working to improve, 00:27:52.893 --> 00:27:55.653 not continually doing the same things over and over and the way that they get 00:27:55.653 --> 00:27:57.713 rid of their discomfort is to say, my bad, I'll figure it out. 00:27:59.411 --> 00:28:03.191 They are, they are on this journey. So everything they interact with is a chance 00:28:03.191 --> 00:28:07.951 for them to grow because that approach that's going to foster a whole different environment, 00:28:07.951 --> 00:28:13.191 a supportive environment where both people feel safe to be themselves and warts 00:28:13.191 --> 00:28:16.731 and all no offense to a frog with warts because probably a prince, 00:28:16.871 --> 00:28:19.911 but it's knowing that their vulnerabilities are going to be met with compassion, 00:28:20.051 --> 00:28:20.951 going to be met with encouragement. 00:28:21.191 --> 00:28:24.331 So then through that mutual support, now we're both growing, 00:28:24.371 --> 00:28:27.311 we're growing individually, but, and as a couple. 00:28:27.371 --> 00:28:30.151 So both. And that's the thing I think that we just don't know that we don't 00:28:30.151 --> 00:28:31.271 know when we don't have the tools. 00:28:31.831 --> 00:28:36.151 And so then you deepen your connection and your resilience and what a, 00:28:36.151 --> 00:28:41.351 what a better, no better time right now than get on the newsletter because the 00:28:41.351 --> 00:28:44.091 updated magnetic marriage course hiccup or two. 00:28:44.191 --> 00:28:46.851 Oh, I'm embracing those imperfections, not in the negative way, 00:28:46.931 --> 00:28:49.171 but it, the course is going to be amazing. 00:28:49.251 --> 00:28:53.431 It really is couples communication course. Okay, let's go through just a couple more. 00:28:53.631 --> 00:28:57.311 Here is a quote from Marcus Aurelius. 00:28:57.331 --> 00:29:02.991 That's actually not a quote from him, but his stoic tip was let go of unnecessary opinions. 00:29:03.151 --> 00:29:07.251 Marcus Aurelius reminds us that we don't always need to have an opinion about everything. 00:29:07.691 --> 00:29:12.631 Learn to let go of pointless gossip or trivial matters that have no influence on your life. 00:29:12.711 --> 00:29:16.991 Focus on what matters and how you can make a difference. So if I rephrase that, 00:29:17.091 --> 00:29:21.211 if we put that into maybe more of the situations that we're dealing with in 00:29:21.211 --> 00:29:24.851 the world of emotional immaturity, it really would be just dropping the needless judgments. 00:29:25.331 --> 00:29:29.131 And when you see a good, emotionally immature, narcissistic person, 00:29:29.211 --> 00:29:32.191 they do feel like they have to weigh in on everything. Because if you have an 00:29:32.191 --> 00:29:36.151 opinion and they don't, the assumption that they're making then is that, 00:29:36.191 --> 00:29:38.091 well, then you must think you're better than me. 00:29:38.191 --> 00:29:40.331 So then, well, I can come up with an opinion. As a matter of fact, 00:29:40.471 --> 00:29:42.311 now we're in my territory. 00:29:42.751 --> 00:29:46.051 Let's dance. Now I can actually make sure that I say that your opinion actually 00:29:46.051 --> 00:29:47.791 doesn't make sense, even if I don't know what I'm talking about. 00:29:47.791 --> 00:29:50.171 So they do tend to have an opinion on everything. 00:29:50.631 --> 00:29:55.131 But Marcus Aurelius is saying it's better to steer clear of meaningless chatter 00:29:55.131 --> 00:29:57.391 or minor issues that really don't affect you. 00:29:57.771 --> 00:30:01.491 And you concentrate more on the things that are important and where you can 00:30:01.491 --> 00:30:04.811 actually bring about change. And when I go back into the concepts of healthy 00:30:04.811 --> 00:30:08.291 ego, that the healthy ego is based off of real life experience. 00:30:08.811 --> 00:30:13.411 And I can't say this enough, then the goal when you are starting to step into 00:30:13.411 --> 00:30:16.851 your healthy ego, find the things that matter to you, move away from that false 00:30:16.851 --> 00:30:21.551 self, start realizing that I need to figure out who I am, which is a me thing, 00:30:21.691 --> 00:30:22.671 which is going to be uncomfortable, 00:30:22.891 --> 00:30:28.691 which is going to need to happen from a place of doing and finding my path, 00:30:28.751 --> 00:30:32.811 my lane, my passion, that then I will start to find a thing that matters to 00:30:32.811 --> 00:30:36.071 me and now I can speak with more confidence, 00:30:36.251 --> 00:30:41.651 still knowing that I don't know everything, but when you're operating from this false self, 00:30:41.851 --> 00:30:46.231 the emotionally mature narcissistic person, then they do feel like, 00:30:46.231 --> 00:30:48.911 well, in any given moment, in any interaction, they're, 00:30:49.437 --> 00:30:52.417 one does is they now have to have an opinion on everything. 00:30:52.557 --> 00:30:56.697 And then once we start talking, then they will even go big on their opinion 00:30:56.697 --> 00:30:57.877 of things that they don't even matter. 00:30:57.997 --> 00:31:02.297 I was actually talking with a client recently, and we were talking about this 00:31:02.297 --> 00:31:05.217 concept where I had worked with someone in their family a long time ago. 00:31:05.377 --> 00:31:10.437 And that person I would put on more of the emotionally immature side of the equation. 00:31:10.977 --> 00:31:15.857 And the person that would come in back in the day would listen to just enough 00:31:15.857 --> 00:31:18.997 of a podcast of mine to then weigh in. 00:31:19.277 --> 00:31:23.757 And it was so interesting because they were, I know they were doing their best, 00:31:23.877 --> 00:31:26.937 but they would come in and say, hey, I like the episode you did on, 00:31:27.017 --> 00:31:28.137 we'll say fill in the blank. 00:31:29.157 --> 00:31:32.577 And I'll give one that's a little bit out of context, just so that the example 00:31:32.577 --> 00:31:36.637 that comes to mind is I do a lot in the world of navigating faith journeys, 00:31:36.777 --> 00:31:38.537 faith deconstructions, faith crisis. 00:31:38.757 --> 00:31:42.917 And if you go over on the virtual couch and look up anything that has to do 00:31:42.917 --> 00:31:45.937 with Fowler, stages of faith. I could talk about that all day long. 00:31:46.237 --> 00:31:50.057 And in Fowler's stages of faith, there's some really clear stages. 00:31:50.357 --> 00:31:54.997 There's a concept of where one is in their real orthodox belief system, 00:31:55.097 --> 00:31:59.817 where everything fits nicely into a box, everything you need to think and say and feel and do. 00:32:00.037 --> 00:32:03.997 He considers this a stage three member of a faith community. 00:32:04.457 --> 00:32:07.917 Everything fits in the box. It's the just pray, read your scriptures more, 00:32:07.977 --> 00:32:09.737 everything's going to be okay, it's going to work out. 00:32:09.837 --> 00:32:13.117 And if it doesn't, then you need to just pray and read your scriptures more. 00:32:13.597 --> 00:32:16.957 Then he's got a stage four that you come through and it's a place where you're 00:32:16.957 --> 00:32:21.617 a little more frustrated to realize that there are other boxes and you are okay 00:32:21.617 --> 00:32:23.857 to have your own thoughts, opinions, and emotions, but you're angry. 00:32:23.997 --> 00:32:28.837 So it's almost like a stage four still needs to let stage three people know 00:32:28.837 --> 00:32:33.077 that you don't have the whole picture. That wasn't working for me. 00:32:33.317 --> 00:32:37.017 And stage three people are saying, well, you shouldn't have read or thought 00:32:37.017 --> 00:32:41.597 or done the things that take you out of this belief system. And there's a stage five that is, 00:32:42.227 --> 00:32:45.467 being and doing, accepting that life's full of mystery and paradox, 00:32:45.687 --> 00:32:48.027 and we're all just trying to figure this thing out. 00:32:48.687 --> 00:32:51.707 There's a stage two that is called mythic and literal. 00:32:51.827 --> 00:32:56.547 And mythic and literal stage of faith, when you're maybe a kid into your adolescence, 00:32:56.667 --> 00:32:58.947 where everything is mythic, everything is literal. 00:32:59.127 --> 00:33:02.807 You've got the Easter Bunny, Batman, Jesus, Superman, the Tooth Fairy, 00:33:03.007 --> 00:33:06.487 and they're all real, and they're all very mythic and literal. 00:33:06.927 --> 00:33:10.627 So, at one point, this person had come into my office and they were talking 00:33:10.627 --> 00:33:14.867 about stages of faith. And they were saying, I've realized that I'm a stage two. 00:33:15.647 --> 00:33:20.487 And that wasn't really even close to the context of what we were talking about 00:33:20.487 --> 00:33:24.247 because they wanted to say that they were more of the stage five enlightened 00:33:24.247 --> 00:33:28.427 being when in reality, I believe they were more of the stage three Orthodox person. 00:33:28.647 --> 00:33:31.427 But yet they were saying here they are at stage two. And then, 00:33:31.447 --> 00:33:34.747 so then I tried to bring gentle awareness to the stages because that's, 00:33:34.747 --> 00:33:38.327 I've talked about them for a decade and spoken on them and wrote about them 00:33:38.327 --> 00:33:39.827 and done podcasts on them. 00:33:39.947 --> 00:33:43.847 And this person was quick to let me know, I'm pretty sure I'm stage two. 00:33:44.187 --> 00:33:49.007 And at that moment, I felt like I wanted to get out the stages and go through 00:33:49.007 --> 00:33:51.467 those and prove that, well, wait, this isn't the case. 00:33:51.747 --> 00:33:55.127 But in that moment, I think that what would have most likely happened is they 00:33:55.127 --> 00:33:57.807 would have then changed the subject, asked me, well, I don't know. 00:33:57.907 --> 00:34:01.307 I think I read something else elsewhere that said that maybe you've got your 00:34:01.307 --> 00:34:05.047 stages. Maybe there's a a couple of different versions of James Fowler's stages of faith. 00:34:05.387 --> 00:34:08.487 So it's okay to say, I don't know. 00:34:08.947 --> 00:34:13.007 And that emotionally immature person gets a hold of a little bit of data, 00:34:13.047 --> 00:34:16.707 and then they go ahead and create their own narrative. And then they are right. 00:34:17.027 --> 00:34:18.827 They are absolutely correct in that narrative. 00:34:19.267 --> 00:34:22.027 If you go back a few episodes ago, I did one that was just, it was a little 00:34:22.027 --> 00:34:26.387 bit for me, I think, just because I'm fascinated by emotional immaturity, 00:34:26.447 --> 00:34:29.887 narcissism, and people that dive into the world of conspiracy theories. 00:34:29.987 --> 00:34:35.367 And I did an episode on why narcissists typically go with conspiracy theories. 00:34:35.527 --> 00:34:40.767 And it was a little bit on this concept. In that episode, I talked about if 00:34:40.767 --> 00:34:43.967 a narcissist already has, they are special, so they're going to attach themselves 00:34:43.967 --> 00:34:47.307 to certain things that they feel that they know that other people don't know. 00:34:47.767 --> 00:34:51.607 Well, then in those situations where then they are actually met with actual 00:34:51.607 --> 00:34:56.447 real data or evidence that is hard to deny, goes against what their initial 00:34:56.447 --> 00:35:00.627 thoughts or feelings were, Well, now you've got the conflict. They can't be wrong. 00:35:00.827 --> 00:35:03.127 You can't know something they don't. 00:35:03.487 --> 00:35:08.427 But then there's also a lot of truth in maybe what you're bringing to them. 00:35:08.667 --> 00:35:10.607 So they've got a conflict. What do they do? 00:35:10.907 --> 00:35:16.607 Well, now they double down on their version of events, even if what you're bringing 00:35:16.607 --> 00:35:20.727 them are the facts and the data that is irrefutable. 00:35:20.727 --> 00:35:25.367 So now they must create that conspiracy or that narrative because then they 00:35:25.367 --> 00:35:26.807 still get to maintain that they're special. 00:35:27.463 --> 00:35:29.823 And they don't have to acknowledge the fact that, well, yeah, 00:35:29.883 --> 00:35:32.603 actually your data makes sense. I really don't know what I'm talking about. My bad. 00:35:33.063 --> 00:35:37.683 When that is all that it would take from a mature person to say, 00:35:37.703 --> 00:35:40.983 you know what? I had no idea. I had not realized that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. 00:35:41.683 --> 00:35:45.643 Now, what else do you want to talk about? Well, let's get back to the topic at hand. 00:35:45.803 --> 00:35:48.603 Let me talk about Marcus Aurelius because I like sharing a 00:35:48.603 --> 00:35:51.863 little bit about these different Stoic philosophers because Marcus Aurelius 00:35:51.863 --> 00:35:54.843 is the one that I think so many people have heard of in the world of Stoicism 00:35:54.843 --> 00:36:01.763 because he was a Roman emperor and he ruled from around 161 to 180 AD and he 00:36:01.763 --> 00:36:05.923 was a very big thinker and he had a book called Meditations and it's a diary 00:36:05.923 --> 00:36:07.263 of his personal thoughts, 00:36:07.443 --> 00:36:10.483 his advice getting through tough times, how to be a good person, 00:36:10.643 --> 00:36:13.303 how to stay present when things are crazy. 00:36:13.503 --> 00:36:16.523 But I think it's just really interesting at that time to just 00:36:16.523 --> 00:36:20.923 imagine that here's this Roman emperor who is jotting down these ideas and thoughts 00:36:20.923 --> 00:36:26.983 between battles and between emperor duties and trying to figure out how to react 00:36:26.983 --> 00:36:31.863 properly and be present while he's also engaged in these ruthless battles of 00:36:31.863 --> 00:36:35.803 people trying to conquer and dominate your land and your kingdom. 00:36:36.283 --> 00:36:40.263 But his writings are still relatable today, Which is really interesting because 00:36:40.263 --> 00:36:43.863 it shows that when that even somebody with a lot of a tremendous amount of power 00:36:43.863 --> 00:36:47.003 can still wrestle with the same things that we do now today. 00:36:47.363 --> 00:36:51.763 I think he puts off a vibe almost like this wise friend that you kind of wish 00:36:51.763 --> 00:36:55.923 you had this seasoned vet that's just going to say, you know, here's what I think. 00:36:55.963 --> 00:37:00.423 Not telling you need to do this, but reminding us that it's possible to be strong 00:37:00.423 --> 00:37:03.943 and thoughtful no matter what life throws at you. 00:37:03.983 --> 00:37:07.663 And I think it is that I can hold a firm boundary and be kind. 00:37:07.663 --> 00:37:10.243 So that's why I think if you really look into some of his writings, 00:37:10.383 --> 00:37:11.643 they're really relatable. 00:37:12.203 --> 00:37:15.663 Speaking of relatable, here's a relatable, I think, example of this concept. 00:37:15.783 --> 00:37:19.063 So I've got this couple, again, we're changing a lot of details, 00:37:19.323 --> 00:37:24.263 Jordan and Alex, and they find themselves very often caught up in the drama 00:37:24.263 --> 00:37:25.403 of their friends' lives. 00:37:25.843 --> 00:37:30.163 And they spend a lot of time dissecting gossip. And I did an episode a long 00:37:30.163 --> 00:37:34.303 time ago on the virtual couch about gossip and that the origin story of gossip 00:37:34.303 --> 00:37:38.783 is that it really was a way to see where somebody else is on a page. Did you hear about Ted? 00:37:38.983 --> 00:37:42.783 And then if the other person says, yeah, I can't believe it. What a, what a buffoon. 00:37:42.983 --> 00:37:48.363 And if you were thinking, I kind of think he's side on Ted, but now I know you are not on team Ted. 00:37:48.463 --> 00:37:51.223 So then it's, yeah, man, crazy, huh? Anyway, can you pass the. 00:37:51.950 --> 00:37:54.570 I don't know why pickle juice came to mind. I don't know what kind of party 00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:57.890 that they were at, but if they were like, oh yeah, Ted, huh? What do you think? 00:37:58.210 --> 00:38:00.150 And sometimes we play that game of like, well, I don't know. 00:38:00.150 --> 00:38:02.890 What do you, what do you tell me? What are you thinking? Cause I'm still trying to figure it out. 00:38:03.610 --> 00:38:06.610 And it's like, who can be, who feels safe enough to be authentic. 00:38:07.410 --> 00:38:10.810 But gossip though, in essence started as a way to just, let's see what other 00:38:10.810 --> 00:38:11.710 people think about things. 00:38:11.790 --> 00:38:14.770 It's a way to be relatable about certain situations. But then I think the, 00:38:14.830 --> 00:38:19.110 the hope is that you go on to move on to feeling like you can be very authentic 00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:21.550 and vulnerable and have very genuine opinions. 00:38:21.950 --> 00:38:25.910 And then you open up and then you start being able to relate more about your 00:38:25.910 --> 00:38:31.050 own situations or your relationship with another person, not always turning to gossip. 00:38:31.530 --> 00:38:34.610 But so this couple, it really becomes all that they talk about. 00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:37.790 And they start to realize that they are focusing so much more on other people's 00:38:37.790 --> 00:38:39.150 problems and their own goals and happiness. 00:38:39.410 --> 00:38:44.130 So then if you apply this advice from Marcus Aurelius, now they're going to 00:38:44.130 --> 00:38:48.290 decide very consciously to avoid getting involved in the trivial matters that 00:38:48.290 --> 00:38:49.370 really don't impact them. 00:38:49.370 --> 00:38:52.150 And if one of them would notice that they're going right to gossip, 00:38:52.270 --> 00:38:54.730 what it was telling them, the muse in the relationship, 00:38:54.970 --> 00:39:00.410 was that, oh, I think that I'm either afraid to open up directly or I worry 00:39:00.410 --> 00:39:03.790 that if I tell you about my day that you'll judge me or I worry that you'll 00:39:03.790 --> 00:39:07.110 think that I don't really do a lot of important things. 00:39:07.350 --> 00:39:11.990 And so this acted as a way to then help them know that they could start to talk 00:39:11.990 --> 00:39:14.570 about more things, things that were more relatable to them. 00:39:14.570 --> 00:39:18.190 So, then they start spending more time talking about future plans, 00:39:18.490 --> 00:39:22.650 personal growth, how they can contribute in the relationship, in the community. 00:39:22.930 --> 00:39:27.150 So, it made them closer and made them feel more fulfilled and they started to 00:39:27.150 --> 00:39:28.610 focus on what matters in their lives. 00:39:29.010 --> 00:39:34.030 So, then putting this through this emotionally immature or weaponization filter. 00:39:35.044 --> 00:39:39.204 An emotionally immature person might take then Marcus Aurelius' advice as an 00:39:39.204 --> 00:39:42.504 excuse now to be dismissive or indifferent to their partner's concerns, 00:39:42.704 --> 00:39:49.024 now having this ability or weapon to label things as trivial or unnecessary opinions. 00:39:49.404 --> 00:39:52.824 So now they might say, well, Marcus Aurelius says we shouldn't waste time on 00:39:52.824 --> 00:39:56.764 things that don't matter. And clearly what you're talking about, I don't think matters. 00:39:56.864 --> 00:40:00.544 I kind of feel like you're being pretty judgmental, so I don't have to talk 00:40:00.544 --> 00:40:05.544 about it. So they use it as justification to avoid engaging in their partner's feelings or concerns. 00:40:05.744 --> 00:40:08.484 And so they basically shut down communication and empathy within the relationship. 00:40:08.824 --> 00:40:12.484 And what is so interesting about that is that in this particular situation. 00:40:13.224 --> 00:40:18.344 Seeing it played out in another relationship where now enter four pillars. 00:40:18.344 --> 00:40:21.524 And now in that scenario, it was the wife who was more emotionally mature. 00:40:21.744 --> 00:40:25.724 And then the husband now starts saying, oh, well, instead of him wanting to 00:40:25.724 --> 00:40:28.004 say, okay, but you literally were gossiping this morning. 00:40:28.064 --> 00:40:31.824 Then he's saying, man, I appreciate that because he's assuming good intentions. 00:40:31.844 --> 00:40:33.404 So there's a reason why she's saying what she's saying. 00:40:33.764 --> 00:40:37.324 My pillar two, you can't say that's ridiculous. I don't believe you or you're 00:40:37.324 --> 00:40:38.984 wrong, even though he felt all of those things. 00:40:39.184 --> 00:40:42.704 So pillar three, he's saying, man, I appreciate that. Help me see my blind spots. 00:40:42.764 --> 00:40:44.864 Like, help me understand what are you hearing? 00:40:44.984 --> 00:40:47.724 What does it sound like to you? Because maybe I'm missing the concept. 00:40:48.344 --> 00:40:52.324 And she was just, it was almost as if she's just ready for him to argue that 00:40:52.324 --> 00:40:56.524 then she just said, well, I mean, you tell me, what do you think about it? 00:40:56.584 --> 00:41:00.024 And I loved it because he was saying, oh, well, I mean, I'm just communicating. 00:41:00.104 --> 00:41:03.984 So I wasn't, I didn't recognize that as gossip or that I was doing anything 00:41:03.984 --> 00:41:05.724 that was wrong, so to speak. 00:41:06.104 --> 00:41:09.044 And so at that point, then she pulled a narcissistic exit. 00:41:09.144 --> 00:41:13.064 She all of a sudden started, oh, she's feeling like she's getting a little overwhelmed. 00:41:13.144 --> 00:41:15.384 Maybe feels a little bit of a panic attack coming on. And I'm not trying to 00:41:15.384 --> 00:41:18.704 make fun of that or make light of that, but that was the pattern that would 00:41:18.704 --> 00:41:22.484 happen is that whenever she was almost like the spotlight was on her, then. 00:41:23.269 --> 00:41:26.329 Now, it's like, wait, I need to get out of this and I need you to argue with 00:41:26.329 --> 00:41:29.529 me or I need you to shut down, but you're staying present. 00:41:30.129 --> 00:41:34.569 So not sure what to do about this. So I'm going to go with the narcissistic medical exit. 00:41:35.209 --> 00:41:39.929 Now, let's look at a nice growth oriented interpretation of this advice from Marcus Aurelius. 00:41:39.949 --> 00:41:44.609 So in that scenario, somebody genuinely looking at Marcus Aurelius' wisdom would 00:41:44.609 --> 00:41:48.209 recognize the value in focusing on what's really important, including the health 00:41:48.209 --> 00:41:49.129 and happiness of the relationship. 00:41:49.129 --> 00:41:51.969 So then they would take this philosophy and then they would say, 00:41:52.089 --> 00:41:55.109 OK, again, I'm aware that we keep going back to gossip. 00:41:55.309 --> 00:42:00.349 Let's choose to be deeply engaged on issues that matter to both of us if we can. 00:42:00.669 --> 00:42:04.749 But if not, then I want to hear you. I want to hear what matters to you. 00:42:04.749 --> 00:42:08.509 And that's an opportunity for me to then sit with my own discomfort, 00:42:08.649 --> 00:42:13.109 my yeah, but my noticing that I think that you're saying something about me, 00:42:13.189 --> 00:42:15.149 even though you're literally talking about you, 00:42:15.269 --> 00:42:19.089 which I've asked, because that approach that'll lead to far more meaningful 00:42:19.089 --> 00:42:20.769 and supportive and a more focused 00:42:20.769 --> 00:42:24.229 relationship where then both people feel valued, they feel understood. 00:42:24.409 --> 00:42:28.909 And then they learn to prioritize their energy and attention on being more present, 00:42:28.969 --> 00:42:31.829 building a life together, shared values, goals. Okay. 00:42:31.969 --> 00:42:36.789 I have a couple of more. Maybe I'll save those for the Waking Up to Narcissism, the premium podcast. 00:42:36.949 --> 00:42:42.889 So if you jump over there, maybe grab that subscription, then we can talk about a few more of these. 00:42:43.009 --> 00:42:48.849 But for now, if you have your own examples of maybe your spouse or the emotionally 00:42:48.849 --> 00:42:52.829 immature person in your life weaponizing some tools, weaponizing self-help tools 00:42:52.829 --> 00:42:54.909 or techniques, share those with me. 00:42:54.909 --> 00:42:58.309 Please reach out, contact at tonyoverbay.com. I would love your examples. 00:42:58.489 --> 00:43:03.749 And I hope that this will help you really understand that there is an absolutely 00:43:03.749 --> 00:43:08.729 wonderful place for self-help podcasts, for the words of the Stoics, 00:43:08.749 --> 00:43:11.769 for motivational speeches and talks. talks. 00:43:12.029 --> 00:43:16.269 But if the person that you're in a relationship with is saying, 00:43:16.329 --> 00:43:19.229 I found something and it's a new thing that I can use against you, 00:43:19.369 --> 00:43:24.669 that's not the way that it needs to work. That's not the way that a healthy relationship works. 00:43:24.909 --> 00:43:29.509 And in that situation, here's where we go back to make sure your baseline's 00:43:29.509 --> 00:43:31.629 high, get that PhD in gaslighting. 00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:35.489 If you recognize here comes the unproductive conversation, it's not going to 00:43:35.489 --> 00:43:38.089 be healthy. It's going to be a waste of emotional calories and energy. 00:43:38.449 --> 00:43:42.289 So get out of that conversation. But also, that doesn't mean that it's going 00:43:42.289 --> 00:43:47.069 to always go well, if it is at all, and learn to set healthy boundaries and 00:43:47.069 --> 00:43:50.769 a boundary versus an ultimatum. I can't say, hey, you need to stop doing that. 00:43:50.849 --> 00:43:54.289 I need to say, if you do that, then I'm going to take off. But that. 00:43:54.921 --> 00:43:58.921 That last one, there's nothing you will say or do that will cause them to have 00:43:58.921 --> 00:44:02.381 the aha moment or the epiphany. People hang on to that for so long. 00:44:02.561 --> 00:44:08.661 And I know that at some point it does feel good to say the things of your heart, 00:44:08.741 --> 00:44:13.141 even if you recognize that they are not going to be heard or if you recognize 00:44:13.141 --> 00:44:17.841 that you are no longer trying to give them the aha moment, but it's the right thing to do. 00:44:17.941 --> 00:44:20.621 But I was talking to somebody earlier today, as a matter of fact, 00:44:20.741 --> 00:44:25.041 and while I so appreciate that and they were saying, but it needs to be said. 00:44:25.201 --> 00:44:27.881 And we could talk all day and all day. That's dramatic. 00:44:28.361 --> 00:44:31.021 We can talk about that. Why do you feel like it needs to be said? 00:44:31.081 --> 00:44:34.321 And I understand if it's because you haven't ever said it that way, 00:44:34.381 --> 00:44:37.621 or it feels good to do the right thing because now you are more aware. 00:44:38.161 --> 00:44:42.141 I, boy, I hear you and I will meet you right there. I'm right beside you as you're doing that. 00:44:42.241 --> 00:44:46.181 I want to say, how is that working for you? Were you, was there a little twinge 00:44:46.181 --> 00:44:49.801 still of you wanting that maybe this would give them the aha moment? It's perfectly normal. 00:44:50.381 --> 00:44:55.361 But I go back to an episode I did a while ago. I think I called it working out at confabulation gym. 00:44:55.641 --> 00:44:58.961 There still needs to be this acceptance that, okay, I am doing this and I'm 00:44:58.961 --> 00:45:01.321 doing it because I am, because this is what I feel is right for me. 00:45:01.401 --> 00:45:06.141 But I'm also accepting the fact that by saying it, I am still giving them another 00:45:06.141 --> 00:45:07.981 workout in the confabulation gym. 00:45:08.121 --> 00:45:12.481 I'm giving them another opportunity to not only not get it, but to let me know 00:45:12.481 --> 00:45:14.041 how I'm the one that's wrong. 00:45:14.441 --> 00:45:17.201 Or because when you really look at that world of confabulation, 00:45:17.401 --> 00:45:21.081 then they are creating this narrative in real time that it It can't possibly 00:45:21.081 --> 00:45:23.321 be the way that you said it is or what you're saying. 00:45:23.541 --> 00:45:27.361 And as a matter of fact, I can create, says the emotionally mature narcissistic 00:45:27.361 --> 00:45:29.681 person in their subconscious, in real time. 00:45:30.341 --> 00:45:33.161 That is not the right narrative. And I'm so convinced of that. 00:45:33.281 --> 00:45:35.381 Here's why I can gaslight every single thing you say. 00:45:36.281 --> 00:45:39.241 So sometimes there's just that acceptance that that's what's happening in those 00:45:39.241 --> 00:45:42.041 conversations to help you keep your sanity. 00:45:42.601 --> 00:45:46.021 But reach out if you have questions, thoughts, comments, your stories. 00:45:46.221 --> 00:45:51.841 I get them often and I read every one. I see the work you're doing. I see your patience. 00:45:52.041 --> 00:45:55.361 I know that if you've made it to this far in this podcast, that you really are 00:45:55.361 --> 00:45:58.641 a, you are that kind person's trying to figure it out. 00:45:58.681 --> 00:46:03.281 Or you might be that emotionally immature person that's saying I'm ready to do something about it. 00:46:03.321 --> 00:46:06.521 And if so, yeah, reach out to me and let's get you in a group. 00:46:06.561 --> 00:46:10.261 Let's, let's do a episode where we can talk about some answers of something 00:46:10.261 --> 00:46:12.761 maybe you're struggling with because we're making a difference. 00:46:12.821 --> 00:46:13.781 Let's keep that momentum going. 00:46:13.861 --> 00:46:16.801 Have an amazing week. I'll see you next time on waking up to narcissism. 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:23.477 Music.