Hey everybody, welcome to episode 109 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of The Virtual Couch podcast,
as well as Love ADHD and the premium question and answer episode of Waking Up
to Narcissism that I would love for you to go find that and sign up, subscribe for that.
If you'd be so kind, sign up for my newsletter. You can find a link to that
in the link tree in the notes of this podcast, or just go to tonyoverbay.com and the newsletter.
So I want to start today with something that I read in a group post recently.
And here was the post. And I've changed a little bit just for the sake of the
therapist in me to sneeze side. I want things to be a little bit more confidential.
So I've changed a little bit of this. So the person said, have any of you noticed
individuals with narcissistic traits or emotional immaturity tending to gravitate
toward certain self-help or philosophical books.
And they said, it's interesting to see how some of them may use these teachings
or, or even social media messages that blame others for relationship issues.
They said, I, they said, I've observed this pattern, not just personally,
but also in professional context, such as a client going through a divorce with
somebody who consumes similar content.
They said, have you had similar observations? What books or philosophies or
social social media accounts, have you seen being twisted into justifications
for their behavior, their behavior being the emotionally immature or the narcissist.
And so then somebody had posted this and I thought this was just really well said.
They said, in my opinion, everything can spark creativity or serve as inspiration.
What really matters is how we use that inspiration.
Do we take bits and pieces that resonate with us and incorporate them into our
own story, seeing how they can support our own goals?
Or do we encounter something that makes us uncomfortable, which prompts us to
ask ourselves, what does this stir up in me and why?
Because then this leads to a moment of self-reflection, and that's when the real work begins.
Now, on the other hand, somebody who's maybe not as emotionally mature might
take this information, only hold on to the parts that make them feel good about
themselves, and then use what they've learned to criticize or harm others.
So I just thought that sounded like perfect material to talk about on the podcast today.
You can take some information, some data, some self-help books,
even the words of a therapist on a podcast, and then if they make you have some
feelings, do you then look at that introspective and say, okay,
is there anything here that I could use to help me grow?
Or do you say, oh, I could use that and it's something maybe that I could throw
at another person, weaponize that. So I think in today's episode,
I want to take a look at this topic of can self-help and philosophical books that are.
I would imagine intended by the authors for growth, then be taken,
maybe misinterpreted or misused by those with narcissistic traits and tendencies
or extreme emotional immaturity.
And so then what happens when this pursuit of wisdom starts to become a tool
for justification rather than introspection?
Because I see my own words being used in this way often, where one of my favorite
things to say is if you are asking yourself if you are the narcissist,
you're not. And then I was talking with somebody this week, and they made such a good point.
They said, okay, I took that concept that you said, because this is a person
who is the pathologically kind person who is still years past getting out of
an unhealthy relationship,
saying, I still find myself wondering if I am, which is even more proof that
you're not. not, but they were talking about being a good parent.
And then they just said, okay, the fact that I care is that I,
if I am, or if I'm not, is my motivation to become better.
They said they finally resonated. They felt that with regard to the concept of, am I the narcissist?
They're saying, if I am continually trying to work on and figure this out,
then yeah, I guess I'm not.
But the person who hears me say that, if you're asking yourself,
if you're the narcissist, then you're not. And the person says,
well, why don't I try that? Am I the narcissist?
Well, I did it. So now I'm going to go tell my spouse, hey, Tony said,
if you ask yourself that, then you're not.
So I did do that. Check that box. I'm not.
So now what are you going to do to fix the relationship?
We're kind of back to that. that. So then how do individuals with narcissistic
traits or emotional immature traits and tendencies, how do they interact with
certain philosophies in particular?
And especially what we're going to use today as a bit of our muse is Stoicism.
Because I have recently become more intrigued by the concepts of Stoicism.
And so one of the people in this group where this post was had had talked about
in particular, some of the Stoic philosophies and how then they were used against somebody else,
which is pretty counter to the concepts of Stoicism to begin with.
So I want to explore this. It'll look a bit like a fine line between using teaching
self-help tools for self-improvement and then weaponizing them against others.
And I'm curious then if you sit right now and think about it,
have you ever noticed somebody somebody that is using the guise of self-improvement
to maybe actually avoid personal accountability.
Because I'll give you some examples of that today, some real-life scenarios.
So let me go back to that quote that I started with.
And yes, I want to continue to be so caught up in myself as to continue and marvel at this quote.
But that's because I was quoting myself.
That was something that I had written in this group, and I just found it hilarious.
One of the things I feel like I promised myself I would never do back before
I had a book or had podcasts was I would hear somebody say, say,
you know, in my book in chapter eight, or on one of my podcasts,
I said, and then I find that I do that from time to time, but it's coming from
a place of, hey, here's some information.
And I don't really remember how I said it. But if I pull the transcript out,
here's what I said, what do you think?
And but I feel like that's a similar thing. But now let's reread that quote.
And now in the context of where you know, this episode is going today.
So in my opinion, it really is my opinion.
Everything can spark creativity or can serve as an inspiration.
This is that concept of everything is an opportunity for me to self-confront
and grow if I take ownership that it is in fact a me thing.
What really matters is how we use that inspiration.
Do we take little bits and pieces that resonate with us and then incorporate
them into our own story and only see how that can support our goals?
Because that sounds pretty cool, but if I'm buffet style and things,
which that is okay if I'm owning up to or saying that these are part of my individualized
treatment plan to help me become a better person.
If I'm saying, okay, I can use that to make that person feel bad,
or I can use this concept to then get out of this jam, then that's a version
of a, that's a pretty crummy buffet.
I was about to give a place of a buffet that, or I don't know,
the mac and cheese has that like glaze over it. And it's, is that really ham
what you're looking at there?
And the only thing you're going to eat are the mashed potatoes and the rolls. You got that version.
And then you've got the, just, I remember going to this seafood buffet at the
Rio when I was in the computer industry where it got more and more expensive,
But I've never eaten more lobster tails and drawn butter and whatever in my
whole life. Which kind of buffet are we talking about?
So another thing that happens is when we see something or we read something
or we hear something, then do we encounter it?
And it makes us feel uncomfortable, which then there's a couple of directions we can go there.
Do we want to get rid of the discomfort or does that prompt us to ask ourselves,
what does this stir up in me and why?
Because that is what leads to a moment of self-reflection. And that's when the real work begins.
So on the other hand, somebody who is not as emotionally mature might then take
the information, whatever it is,
Only hold on to the parts that make them feel good about themselves and then
use what they've learned to actually criticize and harm others.
They're throwing that weird mac and cheese at somebody else across the buffet.
So let me quickly touch on the concept of a muse because I know I say that often
and I think it really is a powerful tool when you recognize where I'm going
with that concept of everything is an opportunity to self-confront.
Everything becomes my muse.
An article can be my muse or a song can be or the smell of whatever it is at
a buffet can bring up some big emotions in me.
And then I want to share a concept with you that my friend Preston threw out
on a coaching call for the first
time we ever did my magnetic marriage course that I've used so often.
And it's this concept of listening with your elbow. So first, the muse.
If you can think of a muse as anything that gets your creative juices flowing,
it could It could be the vibe of a restaurant or I know that my daughter,
Sydney, when she wants to edit our TikTok live, she likes to go to a coffee
shop and just kind of get in that vibe. And that is her muse.
Or for some people, they need chaos. They want to sit outside and sidewalk cafe
by a busy street or maybe even the ups and downs of your own life.
Once you really are recognizing that you're okay, you're not broken, you're human.
And then everything that you're doing, everything that you're interacting with
really is your muse to help you understand what's going on.
Artists, you can hear them maybe get sparked by a sunset or a song.
Writers could be hit with inspiration from a random chat that they overheard,
something funky they saw online.
And literally me reading this post, I just thought, oh, I really want to run
with this and I want to create some content on it.
Because basically, if something makes you think or feel anything,
but in particular, if it makes you feel a little bit deeply or it gives you
that that little dopamine bump, or it makes you feel a bit put off, it's your muse.
And it's calling you to create something from it.
It is an opportunity to grow, to self-confront. And just to know that the muse
could also help you recognize that you're okay. Because if you feel.
Your heart rate elevating, and you recognize that something is maybe unsafe,
then all right, that muse is telling me that I need to really pay attention.
Maybe something's dangerous, or this is a familiar feeling, or I'm put in a
familiar position that I've been in the past where I didn't have control.
But there can also be the concept of where if somebody's telling you something
about yourself that you know you have worked on, then it actually is a chance
for you to sit there and say, okay, actually, I feel pretty confident now.
Or in the past, this was was something that if somebody would have said to me,
I would get defensive and I would shut down or I would gaslight or project or
whatever that would look like.
So now let's talk about the whole idea of don't listen with your elbow.
So imagine you are just sitting there with your partner and you're watching
a video or listening to a podcast.
And it's something that is meant to make you think or improve yourself.
But the two of you are maybe doing this together, or you could even be listening
to something or watching something on your own.
But if you immediately think, oh my, my wife really really needs to hear this.
That would really help her.
It's basically, it's like I'm poking her with my elbow going,
hey, did you get that? Did you hear that? I think you could really resonate
with that. You really need to hear this.
But instead, that kind of goes up against, well, I guess it's still,
it's bringing something up in you.
But now all of a sudden you think, I don't want to do anything about this,
but how about you take care of it to your partner?
It's like when you're listening to a podcast about being a better listener,
instead of using it as a chance to silently tell your partner that they are
terrible at listening, you think about how you can step up your own listening game.
So it really is about soaking up wisdom for yourself, not as a sneaky way to
tell somebody else that they need to change.
Now, if you really think it's something that resonates, then maybe you can ask
questions. Hey, what'd you think about that podcast?
And if the person said, yeah, I didn't really get it, then maybe there's a nice
healthy way to say, hey, do you mind if I take you on my train of thought? lot.
And then I feel like this really resonated with me.
And I know that's something that I can really work on, but I can't say that
in hopes that then, so hopefully they'll get it because that's not the point.
I often, when we're listening with our elbow, that is a time where we are in
essence trying to weaponize something, be it a podcast, an article,
a book, a show, anything like that.
So when we circle back to that whole bit about inspiration and muses,
then it really is how we use what fires us up.
Do we let things challenge and change us? Or do we just pick out the real comfy
parts and ignore the rest?
And it's a big no-no to then twist those insights into a way to point fingers
at others, especially the people that are close to you, while we just skip out
looking at our own stuff.
Because growing and learning, and this can be difficult, It's a personal journey.
It is, at the end of the day, it's a you thing. It is. And I'm saying that as a good way.
Now, absolutely, we would love for our partners to be a part of that and grow.
And we can have these mutually reciprocal relationships and shared experiences.
But I know that a lot of people that are listening to this podcast don't have
those relationships and maybe don't even really know what that looks like.
It's almost our default to try to still say, man, if I can just get them to understand.
But at some point it's dropping the rope with a tug-of-war with that and recognizing
I need to understand. I need to be my best version of myself.
It's, it really becomes important to focus on your own path of growth.
And then by really listening, thinking about how stuff affects you,
instead of nudging your partner to pay attention, then you start to open the
door to real change, internal change. And then who knows?
I mean, the, I, I struggle with this a little bit and we'll talk about this
more in future episodes, but if, if I was ever going to influence,
then maybe that would come from a place where I am, I am good. it.
I am doing and being and becoming the very best version of myself,
but I can't do it so that my partner will then change.
I have to do it for me. I want to read a few, and we're going to go into the world of Stoicism.
And I'll talk about a few of the Stoic philosophers, and then I will give a
modern rephrasing of a Stoic philosophy.
And then I want to talk about what that would look like if you took that in
and then really, here's what it could look like in a healthy relationship,
the concepts of the principles.
And then here's what that would look like from from somebody who's emotionally
immature and who is weaponizing the phrase.
Before we get started, let me give you a quick overview or description of Stoicism.
It's a type of philosophy that started back in ancient Greece around the 3rd century BC.
It was about trying to stay calm, being pretty emotionally consistent and mature.
No matter what life throws at you. And the main idea, I think,
is pretty straightforward.
It's that things happen in your life that you can't control,
But what you can control is how you react to it.
So, Stoicism has a lot of different ways, phrases, sayings that teach you how
to stay calm or maybe make wise choices and learn how to be more present,
be more accepting of the things that are happening.
There was a guy named Zeno of Citium, and he is the one who kicked things off with Stoicism.
And then the philosophy, the more that he spoke about it, became really practical
because it's more about action and how to live a good life and how to be a good
person, how to deal with tough times without losing your mind,
which is really pretty amazing. That was happening in 3rd B.C.
Because we're struggling with that now. That's that concept of being emotionally
immature and being overly reactive
and not wanting to sit with any kind of discomfort or take ownership.
So then over time, it spread from Greece to Rome. And there are people that
you've probably heard of, like maybe not.
I know one of them, Marcus Aurelius, is a big name in Stoicism,
but also Seneca and Epictetus.
And they started to write more about it.
And so then the word started to spread the more that they wrote.
In a nutshell, Stoicism is about learning to, I guess, in essence,
master your emotions, but more it's focusing on what you can control that then
hopefully will lead you to a better life.
And I believe that these concepts, when you hear some of these,
they do still resonate today. day.
So the first one that I want to talk about is from Seneca. Seneca said,
don't suffer in advance.
Seneca reminds us that we often suffer more in our imagination than in reality.
Anxiety, for example, is often caused by anticipating what could happen in the
future and then torturing ourselves with worry.
So Seneca said, instead, try to live in the present moment and deal with things as they come.
I jotted down a modern rephrasing, and it's that we usually stress out more
in our head than actually what happens in real life.
And so much of our anxiety comes from worrying about what might happen tomorrow
or next week or even further down the road, which that makes ourselves pretty
miserable in the process today.
So it's better to start to focus on the here and now and then handle things as they happen.
Huacinica, also known as Lucius Ananias Seneca, if he was in trouble with his
mom, was this very smart Roman guy who did a lot of of everything,
philosophy, politics, even playwriting.
And this was around the first century CE.
Seneca was the kind of guy who wrote a lot about how to live a good life and
then tackling everything from how to deal with tough times, how to be happy,
all with a real, at that time, a very practical twist.
But he was all about making these stoic ideas something you can actually use,
not just thinking about, because it was starting out as a philosophy.
Let me give you a real life example. Imagine a couple, we'll call them Alex
and Jamie, and they've been planning a road trip for months.
So as the date gets closer, Jamie starts worrying about all the things that
could go wrong. What if the car breaks down? What if they get lost?
What if one of them gets sick?
And so her anxiety starts to affect their daily life and it starts to cause tension between them.
Now, Alex, on the other hand, he is doing some work, some self-care,
starts to focus on the excitement of the adventure, prepares for what they can,
and then decides that, okay, I'm accepting that I will deal with other things
and problems if and when they occur.
So that's those teachings of Seneca. So this approach, it will help him enjoy
their time together leading up to the trip.
It strengthens the relationship instead of letting these unfounded worries drive them apart.
And what's so important about learning how to work and interact in the present
moment is the more that they can do to find a connection and trust and build
that relationship in the present,
in the here and now, it will greatly impact if and when things come up in the
future because we're on the same team, we're on the same page.
So, the emotionally immature interpretation of this or how one would weaponize
it, an emotionally immature person, like in this scenario, it's Jamie,
might use Seneca's advice then as an excuse to avoid discussing and preparing
for the future challenge in the relationship.
Because they could say, well, why worry about that now?
Let's just live in the moment, even when the issue at hand requires attention and planning.
Because now they can use it as a way to avoid or it can be a way to dodge responsibility,
which then will eventually leave their partner feeling unsupported and anxious
about the future and probably having
to do more than they would need to if things do arise in the future.
So what would that look like from a growth-oriented interpretation?
That if somebody is looking to grow from Seneca's wisdom, like Alex in this
scenario, they would recognize that the value is in not letting hypothetical
worries cloud the present.
But they would also understand that we do need to be prepared.
So they would use the quote from Seneca to calm their partner's fears.
It suggests, okay, why don't we focus on what we can control?
That's the key. And we'll deal with the challenges as they come.
Now, Alex is providing emotional stability, safety. safety.
So hopefully Jamie can lean in to that, his presence. So that approach,
it not only will help reduce the anxiety, but it does, it creates this supportive
and understanding in the relationship where both people feel heard and valued.
They learn to differentiate between unnecessary worry and constructive planning,
and that will lead to personal growth. It just leads to a stronger bond.
The next example actually comes from Winston Churchill. This one plays into
my concepts around raising one's emotional baseline. Okay, Churchill said...
Find a hobby. Churchill believed in the power of hobbies as a way to find solace and relaxation.
So, if you are engaging in activities that bring you joy and allow you to rest
your mind, then that can help you alleviate anxiety and worry when you are interacting
with the world and having to make these big decisions.
So, that modern rephrasing is really saying, okay, I need to look at hobbies
as a way to relax, find peace.
And if I dive into these activities that make me happy, it gives my brain a
break and that will help me ease stress and anxiety.
And in my therapy modality, acceptance and commitment therapy,
if we can find things that really make us feel a sense of purpose,
and it's based on our own values,
then this can be an incredible thing that you can do to raise that emotional baseline. line.
So let's talk about, we'll call them Sam and Taylor.
So here's a couple that's been feeling the weight of their schedules.
They were very busy, but then they start snapping at each other over little
things. So we know it's not about the little things.
It's about the fact that they both feel pretty overwhelmed and emotionally maybe worn out.
So that's a sign that there's some underlying stress and tension.
So if you look at Churchill's advice, then they decide, okay,
let's find hobbies that we can enjoy either separately or together.
Sam gets into gardening. Sam finds peace in the quiet of nature,
the satisfaction of nurturing plants.
Taylor starts painting, using it as an outlet for creativity and expression.
And so then on weekends, sometimes they paint together, they work in the garden.
So those hobbies become their escape. It's a way to recharge. It's a way to find joy.
What happens? They're more relaxed. They communicate better.
The relationship strengthens because they found a way to unwind and share new
experiences without feeling threatened in the relationship.
What does that look like for the emotionally immature?
How would they reinterpret this or weaponize this?
So an emotionally immature person would probably twist Churchill's advice to
then justify selfish behavior.
So just an example, they could pick up some time-consuming hobby.
I like golf, but I feel like that one just came to mind first.
But then it takes hours or days and then they neglect their partner and they're
like, Hey, I'm just following what Churchill said. That's what you gave me the article.
That's what I need to do to relieve stress. I'm just doing what's needed for my mental health.
And they might say that using the hobby as an excuse to avoid spending time
with their partner or dodging responsibilities at home.
So that more selfish interpretation would probably lead to feelings of neglect
and resentment in their partner.
So then if you look at that, though, and you've got more of this growth-oriented
interpretation over how can this make me better?
So on that flip side, somebody that's looking to grow would see Churchill's
advice as an an opportunity to enhance their life and their relationship.
So they might choose a hobby that not only serves as a personal stress reliever,
but if I go back to that ACT modality, it might actually enrich their connection
with themselves, with life, maybe even with their partner.
And then maybe that would lead them to encourage their partner to find a hobby
and that show and support for each of your individual needs,
but also finding a way to connect over shared interest and expressing curiosity
about why somebody picks the thing they do, because that is a them thing in a good way.
That approach, that one's going to lead to personal development.
You're going to have a deeper understanding of each other, a stronger,
more supportive relationship.
And so then you start to recognize hobbies aren't just an escape,
but they are a way to build a richer, more balanced life.
That's part of that codependent. If you're okay, I'm okay.
Independent. One of you is just being okay in the relationship and really doesn't
care about the other person.
But interdependent is where you are two completely whole people that are in
a relationship together.
So now you're not threatened by what the other person is doing, but you're curious.
You have become choosable And now you're inviting that person to come along
with you because you're a good hang. Let's get to the next one.
Okay. I like this one. This one is Epictetus. So we'll talk a little bit about
Epictetus, but Epictetus said, accept your flaws.
Epictetus says it's okay to look, I love this. It's okay to look silly and not know everything.
If it means you're going to get better, it's back to the old,
it's of course, we don't know what we don't know.
And it is okay to deal with the discomfort of failure, embarrassment, you name it.
But Epictetus said, don't shy away from messing up or showing your true self
because it is by making mistakes and being open that we grow and we learn.
So modern rephrasing, accept your flaws, accept your whole self.
It is okay to look silly. It is okay to not know everything.
It's okay to say, I don't know. Don't shy away from something that you may not do well.
It's okay to not be amazing and wonderful at things.
You have to develop those talents and you won't even know if you have a potential
to be good if you don't do something or interact with things.
Show your true self because it's by making those mistakes and being open that we grow and we learn.
Epictetus was a Greek Stoic philosopher who lived from around 50 AD to 135 AD,
which is a pretty long time for that time frame.
But Epictetus is not one who was born into privilege. He started off as a slave.
So then that background gave him a very unique perspective on freedom and control
Because he lived a life that he didn't have freedom and was absolutely controlled.
He emphasizes the importance of focusing on what can we control,
which is our own actions, our own responses, and then learning to let go of
what we can't, which is pretty much everything else. He has the teachings in
a book called Discourses.
But those things work.
They still are works that continue to influence modern thought on things like
resilience and freedom and the art of living.
So, Epictetus had this philosophy that is all about your inner strength,
the power of the mind, the journey toward personal improvement,
which I can't say this enough is so wild to think about that happening that long ago.
And it still is so applicable today. I've got an example.
We'll call the people Chris and Morgan, but it's a couple who they finally said,
let's take dance classes together.
Chris, a little bit hesitant, worried about looking very foolish, very silly.
And when I picture this person, I can understand that.
And I'm a guy that can't dance for squat, but I would love to see video of Chris dancing, but I digress.
But then there was Morgan and Chris was really embarrassed to look silly in
front of Morgan because Morgan's his partner and he just doesn't want to feel
that shame or embarrassment.
Morgan though, a dancer, excited, learning about the challenge and saw it as
this is a chance to learn something new together.
Let's embrace the inevitable missteps. They are going to happen.
We're going to fall. We're going to not do things right.
So then as they started the classes and Chris's fear of embarrassment actually
then led to frustration and then which led to a reluctance to practice.
But Morgan, an Epictetus fan encouraged Chris, Hey, let's laugh off the mistakes.
Let's see them as a step on a path to improvement. You've never done this before. It's okay.
So then over time, Chris starts to let go of the fear of judgment,
starts to find joy in that that whole process rather than just the outcome.
And this is not a Disney movie version where, and now Chris is one dancing with the stars.
No, I think Chris probably is not a very good dancer, but the shift not only
improved their dancing, but it brought them closer.
They learned to support each other. They learned to encourage each other's vulnerabilities.
So what would that look like weaponized? And I want you to know these again,
they're coming based off of real life examples.
And it's easy to go to the weaponization because these are things that we talked
about, out because these are people that didn't know what they didn't know.
And there's some immaturity on both sides.
So an emotionally immature person, if they were given Epictetus's advice,
they could weaponize that very quickly.
They could say, okay, I'm not taking responsibility for my mistakes.
Hey, I'm embracing my imperfection.
But then that argument, I'm just learning and growing. So you can't criticize me.
It comes off as passive aggressive and defensive, even if their actions negatively
impact their partner or the relationship. relationship.
So that's, it's more of a vibe. It's about energy, the attitude that can start
to be a way to deflect criticism, to avoid accountability and then manipulate
the partner into accepting poor behavior.
Hey, it's, I made a mistake trying to embrace them. It's like,
well, why do you keep making the same one that is the one where you go buy whatever
you want and then you apologize and you say, I'll never do it again until you do it again.
Yeah. Mistake. But at some point, Epictetus wasn't throwing that out there to
say, what are you gonna do?
No, you are going going to learn how to grow. If you look at a growth-oriented
interpretation, then you got somebody genuinely inspired by Epictetus.
They would understand that, okay, I got to embrace imperfection.
I got to be open for feedback. I got to learn from my mistakes.
They're going to happen. Of course, they're going to happen.
I can't just make excuses for them.
And they would then maybe apply this philosophy to their relationship by, drum roll,
cue the dramatic music, admitting when they're wrong, saying they're sorry,
asking for patience as they work on improving and actually working to improve,
not continually doing the same things over and over and the way that they get
rid of their discomfort is to say, my bad, I'll figure it out.
They are, they are on this journey. So everything they interact with is a chance
for them to grow because that approach that's going to foster a whole different environment,
a supportive environment where both people feel safe to be themselves and warts
and all no offense to a frog with warts because probably a prince,
but it's knowing that their vulnerabilities are going to be met with compassion,
going to be met with encouragement.
So then through that mutual support, now we're both growing,
we're growing individually, but, and as a couple.
So both. And that's the thing I think that we just don't know that we don't
know when we don't have the tools.
And so then you deepen your connection and your resilience and what a,
what a better, no better time right now than get on the newsletter because the
updated magnetic marriage course hiccup or two.
Oh, I'm embracing those imperfections, not in the negative way,
but it, the course is going to be amazing.
It really is couples communication course. Okay, let's go through just a couple more.
Here is a quote from Marcus Aurelius.
That's actually not a quote from him, but his stoic tip was let go of unnecessary opinions.
Marcus Aurelius reminds us that we don't always need to have an opinion about everything.
Learn to let go of pointless gossip or trivial matters that have no influence on your life.
Focus on what matters and how you can make a difference. So if I rephrase that,
if we put that into maybe more of the situations that we're dealing with in
the world of emotional immaturity, it really would be just dropping the needless judgments.
And when you see a good, emotionally immature, narcissistic person,
they do feel like they have to weigh in on everything. Because if you have an
opinion and they don't, the assumption that they're making then is that,
well, then you must think you're better than me.
So then, well, I can come up with an opinion. As a matter of fact,
now we're in my territory.
Let's dance. Now I can actually make sure that I say that your opinion actually
doesn't make sense, even if I don't know what I'm talking about.
So they do tend to have an opinion on everything.
But Marcus Aurelius is saying it's better to steer clear of meaningless chatter
or minor issues that really don't affect you.
And you concentrate more on the things that are important and where you can
actually bring about change. And when I go back into the concepts of healthy
ego, that the healthy ego is based off of real life experience.
And I can't say this enough, then the goal when you are starting to step into
your healthy ego, find the things that matter to you, move away from that false
self, start realizing that I need to figure out who I am, which is a me thing,
which is going to be uncomfortable,
which is going to need to happen from a place of doing and finding my path,
my lane, my passion, that then I will start to find a thing that matters to
me and now I can speak with more confidence,
still knowing that I don't know everything, but when you're operating from this false self,
the emotionally mature narcissistic person, then they do feel like,
well, in any given moment, in any interaction, they're,
one does is they now have to have an opinion on everything.
And then once we start talking, then they will even go big on their opinion
of things that they don't even matter.
I was actually talking with a client recently, and we were talking about this
concept where I had worked with someone in their family a long time ago.
And that person I would put on more of the emotionally immature side of the equation.
And the person that would come in back in the day would listen to just enough
of a podcast of mine to then weigh in.
And it was so interesting because they were, I know they were doing their best,
but they would come in and say, hey, I like the episode you did on,
we'll say fill in the blank.
And I'll give one that's a little bit out of context, just so that the example
that comes to mind is I do a lot in the world of navigating faith journeys,
faith deconstructions, faith crisis.
And if you go over on the virtual couch and look up anything that has to do
with Fowler, stages of faith. I could talk about that all day long.
And in Fowler's stages of faith, there's some really clear stages.
There's a concept of where one is in their real orthodox belief system,
where everything fits nicely into a box, everything you need to think and say and feel and do.
He considers this a stage three member of a faith community.
Everything fits in the box. It's the just pray, read your scriptures more,
everything's going to be okay, it's going to work out.
And if it doesn't, then you need to just pray and read your scriptures more.
Then he's got a stage four that you come through and it's a place where you're
a little more frustrated to realize that there are other boxes and you are okay
to have your own thoughts, opinions, and emotions, but you're angry.
So it's almost like a stage four still needs to let stage three people know
that you don't have the whole picture. That wasn't working for me.
And stage three people are saying, well, you shouldn't have read or thought
or done the things that take you out of this belief system. And there's a stage five that is,
being and doing, accepting that life's full of mystery and paradox,
and we're all just trying to figure this thing out.
There's a stage two that is called mythic and literal.
And mythic and literal stage of faith, when you're maybe a kid into your adolescence,
where everything is mythic, everything is literal.
You've got the Easter Bunny, Batman, Jesus, Superman, the Tooth Fairy,
and they're all real, and they're all very mythic and literal.
So, at one point, this person had come into my office and they were talking
about stages of faith. And they were saying, I've realized that I'm a stage two.
And that wasn't really even close to the context of what we were talking about
because they wanted to say that they were more of the stage five enlightened
being when in reality, I believe they were more of the stage three Orthodox person.
But yet they were saying here they are at stage two. And then,
so then I tried to bring gentle awareness to the stages because that's,
I've talked about them for a decade and spoken on them and wrote about them
and done podcasts on them.
And this person was quick to let me know, I'm pretty sure I'm stage two.
And at that moment, I felt like I wanted to get out the stages and go through
those and prove that, well, wait, this isn't the case.
But in that moment, I think that what would have most likely happened is they
would have then changed the subject, asked me, well, I don't know.
I think I read something else elsewhere that said that maybe you've got your
stages. Maybe there's a a couple of different versions of James Fowler's stages of faith.
So it's okay to say, I don't know.
And that emotionally immature person gets a hold of a little bit of data,
and then they go ahead and create their own narrative. And then they are right.
They are absolutely correct in that narrative.
If you go back a few episodes ago, I did one that was just, it was a little
bit for me, I think, just because I'm fascinated by emotional immaturity,
narcissism, and people that dive into the world of conspiracy theories.
And I did an episode on why narcissists typically go with conspiracy theories.
And it was a little bit on this concept. In that episode, I talked about if
a narcissist already has, they are special, so they're going to attach themselves
to certain things that they feel that they know that other people don't know.
Well, then in those situations where then they are actually met with actual
real data or evidence that is hard to deny, goes against what their initial
thoughts or feelings were, Well, now you've got the conflict. They can't be wrong.
You can't know something they don't.
But then there's also a lot of truth in maybe what you're bringing to them.
So they've got a conflict. What do they do?
Well, now they double down on their version of events, even if what you're bringing
them are the facts and the data that is irrefutable.
So now they must create that conspiracy or that narrative because then they
still get to maintain that they're special.
And they don't have to acknowledge the fact that, well, yeah,
actually your data makes sense. I really don't know what I'm talking about. My bad.
When that is all that it would take from a mature person to say,
you know what? I had no idea. I had not realized that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Now, what else do you want to talk about? Well, let's get back to the topic at hand.
Let me talk about Marcus Aurelius because I like sharing a
little bit about these different Stoic philosophers because Marcus Aurelius
is the one that I think so many people have heard of in the world of Stoicism
because he was a Roman emperor and he ruled from around 161 to 180 AD and he
was a very big thinker and he had a book called Meditations and it's a diary
of his personal thoughts,
his advice getting through tough times, how to be a good person,
how to stay present when things are crazy.
But I think it's just really interesting at that time to just
imagine that here's this Roman emperor who is jotting down these ideas and thoughts
between battles and between emperor duties and trying to figure out how to react
properly and be present while he's also engaged in these ruthless battles of
people trying to conquer and dominate your land and your kingdom.
But his writings are still relatable today, Which is really interesting because
it shows that when that even somebody with a lot of a tremendous amount of power
can still wrestle with the same things that we do now today.
I think he puts off a vibe almost like this wise friend that you kind of wish
you had this seasoned vet that's just going to say, you know, here's what I think.
Not telling you need to do this, but reminding us that it's possible to be strong
and thoughtful no matter what life throws at you.
And I think it is that I can hold a firm boundary and be kind.
So that's why I think if you really look into some of his writings,
they're really relatable.
Speaking of relatable, here's a relatable, I think, example of this concept.
So I've got this couple, again, we're changing a lot of details,
Jordan and Alex, and they find themselves very often caught up in the drama
of their friends' lives.
And they spend a lot of time dissecting gossip. And I did an episode a long
time ago on the virtual couch about gossip and that the origin story of gossip
is that it really was a way to see where somebody else is on a page. Did you hear about Ted?
And then if the other person says, yeah, I can't believe it. What a, what a buffoon.
And if you were thinking, I kind of think he's side on Ted, but now I know you are not on team Ted.
So then it's, yeah, man, crazy, huh? Anyway, can you pass the.
I don't know why pickle juice came to mind. I don't know what kind of party
that they were at, but if they were like, oh yeah, Ted, huh? What do you think?
And sometimes we play that game of like, well, I don't know.
What do you, what do you tell me? What are you thinking? Cause I'm still trying to figure it out.
And it's like, who can be, who feels safe enough to be authentic.
But gossip though, in essence started as a way to just, let's see what other
people think about things.
It's a way to be relatable about certain situations. But then I think the,
the hope is that you go on to move on to feeling like you can be very authentic
and vulnerable and have very genuine opinions.
And then you open up and then you start being able to relate more about your
own situations or your relationship with another person, not always turning to gossip.
But so this couple, it really becomes all that they talk about.
And they start to realize that they are focusing so much more on other people's
problems and their own goals and happiness.
So then if you apply this advice from Marcus Aurelius, now they're going to
decide very consciously to avoid getting involved in the trivial matters that
really don't impact them.
And if one of them would notice that they're going right to gossip,
what it was telling them, the muse in the relationship,
was that, oh, I think that I'm either afraid to open up directly or I worry
that if I tell you about my day that you'll judge me or I worry that you'll
think that I don't really do a lot of important things.
And so this acted as a way to then help them know that they could start to talk
about more things, things that were more relatable to them.
So, then they start spending more time talking about future plans,
personal growth, how they can contribute in the relationship, in the community.
So, it made them closer and made them feel more fulfilled and they started to
focus on what matters in their lives.
So, then putting this through this emotionally immature or weaponization filter.
An emotionally immature person might take then Marcus Aurelius' advice as an
excuse now to be dismissive or indifferent to their partner's concerns,
now having this ability or weapon to label things as trivial or unnecessary opinions.
So now they might say, well, Marcus Aurelius says we shouldn't waste time on
things that don't matter. And clearly what you're talking about, I don't think matters.
I kind of feel like you're being pretty judgmental, so I don't have to talk
about it. So they use it as justification to avoid engaging in their partner's feelings or concerns.
And so they basically shut down communication and empathy within the relationship.
And what is so interesting about that is that in this particular situation.
Seeing it played out in another relationship where now enter four pillars.
And now in that scenario, it was the wife who was more emotionally mature.
And then the husband now starts saying, oh, well, instead of him wanting to
say, okay, but you literally were gossiping this morning.
Then he's saying, man, I appreciate that because he's assuming good intentions.
So there's a reason why she's saying what she's saying.
My pillar two, you can't say that's ridiculous. I don't believe you or you're
wrong, even though he felt all of those things.
So pillar three, he's saying, man, I appreciate that. Help me see my blind spots.
Like, help me understand what are you hearing?
What does it sound like to you? Because maybe I'm missing the concept.
And she was just, it was almost as if she's just ready for him to argue that
then she just said, well, I mean, you tell me, what do you think about it?
And I loved it because he was saying, oh, well, I mean, I'm just communicating.
So I wasn't, I didn't recognize that as gossip or that I was doing anything
that was wrong, so to speak.
And so at that point, then she pulled a narcissistic exit.
She all of a sudden started, oh, she's feeling like she's getting a little overwhelmed.
Maybe feels a little bit of a panic attack coming on. And I'm not trying to
make fun of that or make light of that, but that was the pattern that would
happen is that whenever she was almost like the spotlight was on her, then.
Now, it's like, wait, I need to get out of this and I need you to argue with
me or I need you to shut down, but you're staying present.
So not sure what to do about this. So I'm going to go with the narcissistic medical exit.
Now, let's look at a nice growth oriented interpretation of this advice from Marcus Aurelius.
So in that scenario, somebody genuinely looking at Marcus Aurelius' wisdom would
recognize the value in focusing on what's really important, including the health
and happiness of the relationship.
So then they would take this philosophy and then they would say,
OK, again, I'm aware that we keep going back to gossip.
Let's choose to be deeply engaged on issues that matter to both of us if we can.
But if not, then I want to hear you. I want to hear what matters to you.
And that's an opportunity for me to then sit with my own discomfort,
my yeah, but my noticing that I think that you're saying something about me,
even though you're literally talking about you,
which I've asked, because that approach that'll lead to far more meaningful
and supportive and a more focused
relationship where then both people feel valued, they feel understood.
And then they learn to prioritize their energy and attention on being more present,
building a life together, shared values, goals. Okay.
I have a couple of more. Maybe I'll save those for the Waking Up to Narcissism, the premium podcast.
So if you jump over there, maybe grab that subscription, then we can talk about a few more of these.
But for now, if you have your own examples of maybe your spouse or the emotionally
immature person in your life weaponizing some tools, weaponizing self-help tools
or techniques, share those with me.
Please reach out, contact at tonyoverbay.com. I would love your examples.
And I hope that this will help you really understand that there is an absolutely
wonderful place for self-help podcasts, for the words of the Stoics,
for motivational speeches and talks. talks.
But if the person that you're in a relationship with is saying,
I found something and it's a new thing that I can use against you,
that's not the way that it needs to work. That's not the way that a healthy relationship works.
And in that situation, here's where we go back to make sure your baseline's
high, get that PhD in gaslighting.
If you recognize here comes the unproductive conversation, it's not going to
be healthy. It's going to be a waste of emotional calories and energy.
So get out of that conversation. But also, that doesn't mean that it's going
to always go well, if it is at all, and learn to set healthy boundaries and
a boundary versus an ultimatum. I can't say, hey, you need to stop doing that.
I need to say, if you do that, then I'm going to take off. But that.
That last one, there's nothing you will say or do that will cause them to have
the aha moment or the epiphany. People hang on to that for so long.
And I know that at some point it does feel good to say the things of your heart,
even if you recognize that they are not going to be heard or if you recognize
that you are no longer trying to give them the aha moment, but it's the right thing to do.
But I was talking to somebody earlier today, as a matter of fact,
and while I so appreciate that and they were saying, but it needs to be said.
And we could talk all day and all day. That's dramatic.
We can talk about that. Why do you feel like it needs to be said?
And I understand if it's because you haven't ever said it that way,
or it feels good to do the right thing because now you are more aware.
I, boy, I hear you and I will meet you right there. I'm right beside you as you're doing that.
I want to say, how is that working for you? Were you, was there a little twinge
still of you wanting that maybe this would give them the aha moment? It's perfectly normal.
But I go back to an episode I did a while ago. I think I called it working out at confabulation gym.
There still needs to be this acceptance that, okay, I am doing this and I'm
doing it because I am, because this is what I feel is right for me.
But I'm also accepting the fact that by saying it, I am still giving them another
workout in the confabulation gym.
I'm giving them another opportunity to not only not get it, but to let me know
how I'm the one that's wrong.
Or because when you really look at that world of confabulation,
then they are creating this narrative in real time that it It can't possibly
be the way that you said it is or what you're saying.
And as a matter of fact, I can create, says the emotionally mature narcissistic
person in their subconscious, in real time.
That is not the right narrative. And I'm so convinced of that.
Here's why I can gaslight every single thing you say.
So sometimes there's just that acceptance that that's what's happening in those
conversations to help you keep your sanity.
But reach out if you have questions, thoughts, comments, your stories.
I get them often and I read every one. I see the work you're doing. I see your patience.
I know that if you've made it to this far in this podcast, that you really are
a, you are that kind person's trying to figure it out.
Or you might be that emotionally immature person that's saying I'm ready to do something about it.
And if so, yeah, reach out to me and let's get you in a group.
Let's, let's do a episode where we can talk about some answers of something
maybe you're struggling with because we're making a difference.
Let's keep that momentum going.
Have an amazing week. I'll see you next time on waking up to narcissism.
Music.