WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.360 Music. 00:00:05.206 --> 00:00:09.126 Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 108 of The Virtual Couch. 00:00:09.326 --> 00:00:11.666 This is not The Virtual Couch. Take two. 00:00:12.146 --> 00:00:17.146 Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 108 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:17.146 --> 00:00:18.606 I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:18.786 --> 00:00:22.086 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and as you may guess, 00:00:22.186 --> 00:00:23.986 also host of The Virtual Couch podcast. 00:00:24.286 --> 00:00:27.446 But we're here today to talk about emotional immaturity. 00:00:27.526 --> 00:00:30.786 We're talking about waking up to narcissism, and I'm going to start with what 00:00:30.786 --> 00:00:34.926 I always want to just be the proverbial, so a grandiose narcissist, 00:00:35.166 --> 00:00:38.086 a vulnerable narcissist, and an emotionally immature person walk into a bar 00:00:38.086 --> 00:00:44.026 joke, but I can never even get chat GPT to give me a really hilarious outcome to that joke. 00:00:44.206 --> 00:00:47.266 But I want to talk about a couple of scenarios that are very real, 00:00:47.346 --> 00:00:51.466 and then we're going to dive into the world of attachment styles today based 00:00:51.466 --> 00:00:55.806 off of an incredible article and site called The Attachment Project. 00:00:55.906 --> 00:01:00.706 It's at attachmentproject.com, and today Today, we will use the section, 00:01:00.826 --> 00:01:03.966 an article on their website called Narcissistic Personality and Attachment, 00:01:04.106 --> 00:01:07.086 How Insecure Attachment Relates to Narcissism. 00:01:07.086 --> 00:01:12.066 Because I have been asked on occasions, is there a link or do I see a correlation 00:01:12.066 --> 00:01:17.266 between the insecure or anxious attachment and emotional immaturity or narcissism? 00:01:17.326 --> 00:01:20.506 And absolutely, there's definitely a connection there. 00:01:20.566 --> 00:01:23.906 But that doesn't mean that all people that have an anxious or an insecure attachment 00:01:23.906 --> 00:01:28.646 are narcissists or emotionally immature. sure, but that is a trait that you see often. 00:01:28.726 --> 00:01:32.646 And down the road, we're going to talk a little bit more about ADHD and the 00:01:32.646 --> 00:01:36.806 world of narcissism and emotional immaturity, because that impulse control or 00:01:36.806 --> 00:01:40.966 that impulsivity and that desire to get out of discomfort or get a quick dopamine 00:01:40.966 --> 00:01:43.226 dump, it factors in here as well. 00:01:43.326 --> 00:01:47.566 So we'll tackle that in the coming weeks. But today, here are the scenarios, 00:01:47.726 --> 00:01:49.266 planning a weekend getaway. 00:01:49.746 --> 00:01:53.926 And the context, so we've got a couple, They're discussing plans for a weekend 00:01:53.926 --> 00:01:56.026 getaway. It's based on a real life experience. 00:01:56.266 --> 00:02:01.006 The husband is the more emotionally immature and the wife plays the role of 00:02:01.006 --> 00:02:01.906 the pathologically kind. 00:02:02.126 --> 00:02:06.246 A couple is discussing plans for the weekend getaway. The woman suggests a quiet 00:02:06.246 --> 00:02:10.526 romantic retreat in the countryside while the guy has his own ideas about what 00:02:10.526 --> 00:02:12.686 and where they should go and what they should do. 00:02:13.578 --> 00:02:18.478 So the grandiose narcissist's response is he immediately dismisses her suggestion, 00:02:18.738 --> 00:02:22.478 asserting that his idea of a luxury beach resort is not only better, 00:02:22.598 --> 00:02:24.798 but it's really the only option worth considering. 00:02:24.998 --> 00:02:29.138 And he even starts bragging and boasting about his taste, his finer tastes, 00:02:29.278 --> 00:02:33.418 and what a joy that must be for her to get this chance to go with him to these 00:02:33.418 --> 00:02:35.618 fine places, these resorts. 00:02:35.618 --> 00:02:40.638 And how he obviously knows the best places to vacation, implying that her preferences, 00:02:40.878 --> 00:02:44.598 they are just, they're adorable, they're quaint, they're unsophisticated. 00:02:44.758 --> 00:02:50.398 And when she tries to express herself or argue her point, he gets increasingly 00:02:50.398 --> 00:02:52.998 assertive, talks over her, belittles her ideas. 00:02:53.278 --> 00:02:58.938 But he frames the whole decision as though it really is only his needs and desires matter. 00:02:59.258 --> 00:03:04.938 And he is expecting her to acquiesce and then just love and admire her choice. 00:03:04.938 --> 00:03:07.318 Choice and nothing else will do. 00:03:07.478 --> 00:03:11.178 And I think that's one of the big differences in grandiose narcissism is that 00:03:11.178 --> 00:03:16.278 nothing else is even on the table because he knows, he knows with every fiber 00:03:16.278 --> 00:03:19.078 of his being that he is right about this. 00:03:19.178 --> 00:03:23.258 And he can just recite all the data to back up why he's right. 00:03:23.558 --> 00:03:26.738 So that impact that's going to have on the relationship, as you can guess, 00:03:26.798 --> 00:03:29.998 it leaves her feeling unheard. She feels unseen. 00:03:30.198 --> 00:03:34.378 She feels devalued. And it creates this power imbalance balance where her opinions 00:03:34.378 --> 00:03:35.738 seem pretty insignificant. 00:03:36.358 --> 00:03:40.838 As a matter of fact, in this based on a real life story, she had mentioned in 00:03:40.838 --> 00:03:44.318 the session that she didn't even know why she even tried to express her opinion. 00:03:45.275 --> 00:03:49.935 And that dynamic starts to put an incredible amount of strain on the relationship 00:03:49.935 --> 00:03:56.355 because it's so clear that her desires, her feelings, that they come second to his ego. 00:03:56.455 --> 00:04:00.575 They probably come third, second to his golf clubs, and then there's his ego after. 00:04:01.015 --> 00:04:05.275 So now if we look at the world of vulnerable narcissism, what that would look 00:04:05.275 --> 00:04:09.315 like when she proposes this countryside retreat, then he acts moody. 00:04:09.395 --> 00:04:13.375 He reacts quietly, but inwardly he's offended because he feels like he should 00:04:13.375 --> 00:04:16.615 have been asked. His preferences should have been her primary consideration 00:04:16.615 --> 00:04:20.115 instead of just, in this world, an outright dismissal. 00:04:20.155 --> 00:04:24.835 Because if we're really looking at this spectrum of narcissism or extreme emotional 00:04:24.835 --> 00:04:30.415 immaturity, then if he wasn't asked, then it means that she thinks, 00:04:30.495 --> 00:04:34.415 obviously, that what he wants would be wrong without even giving him a chance. 00:04:34.735 --> 00:04:37.535 So, what's he going to do? He's going to shut down. He's going to sulk. 00:04:37.715 --> 00:04:41.915 He might start to express how her suggestion makes him feel a little bit unappreciated 00:04:41.915 --> 00:04:43.175 or maybe even misunderstood. understood. 00:04:43.655 --> 00:04:47.415 So he's highlighting what he thinks he needs, but it's super indirect. 00:04:47.715 --> 00:04:48.715 It's passive aggressive. 00:04:49.035 --> 00:04:52.735 And then he might even make reference to there's been past instances as well, 00:04:52.855 --> 00:04:57.615 where he does want to acknowledge that his choice, she even said it herself 00:04:57.615 --> 00:04:59.635 that she liked what they did better. 00:04:59.735 --> 00:05:03.215 But I mean, it's fine, but it's this implied, you're probably making a mistake 00:05:03.215 --> 00:05:06.915 if you really haven't considered what I want to do, because I am usually right. 00:05:07.315 --> 00:05:11.875 Now, if she starts to the press, for her opinion, then he even becomes more withdrawn. 00:05:12.095 --> 00:05:15.035 And then he starts hinting that, you know what, she doesn't even really value 00:05:15.035 --> 00:05:16.875 him, or she doesn't really value the relationship. 00:05:17.615 --> 00:05:21.535 So now the impact on the relationship here, maybe not even if the feeling is 00:05:21.535 --> 00:05:25.795 shut down, with the grandiose narcissist, she may feel now guilty or absolutely 00:05:25.795 --> 00:05:29.575 confused, because she's all of a sudden trying to put together that, okay. 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:35.210 If she expresses her desires, then that typically leads to a bunch of emotional 00:05:35.210 --> 00:05:36.370 chaos, emotional distress. 00:05:36.910 --> 00:05:41.350 And then the relationship then suffers because there's this lack of open communication. 00:05:41.890 --> 00:05:46.910 But then she feels like then her attempts to even talk about preferences starts 00:05:46.910 --> 00:05:49.030 to lead to her being emotionally manipulated. 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:53.110 But the more she tries to express herself, the more it just goes south. 00:05:53.150 --> 00:05:57.050 The more that she tries to engage, the more he almost seems to know what her 00:05:57.050 --> 00:05:59.810 next move is. And he takes that one-up position. 00:06:00.730 --> 00:06:05.350 Now let's go to the emotionally immature person. So here, the guy's behavior 00:06:05.350 --> 00:06:08.670 when he hears her suggestion, he acts pretty impulsively. 00:06:08.990 --> 00:06:13.230 His first response is even laughing. Really? You want to do a romantic getaway? 00:06:13.310 --> 00:06:14.750 When's the last time that we had a romantic getaway? 00:06:14.930 --> 00:06:16.690 I mean, I don't even, what are we going to watch The Notebook? 00:06:16.850 --> 00:06:21.330 What are we going to do? This impulsive thought just comes out and she feels incredibly dismissed. 00:06:21.710 --> 00:06:24.970 But it comes out without much thought from him because it doesn't really align 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.910 with his initial expectations or what he wants to do. 00:06:27.910 --> 00:06:32.250 So then when she even tries to explain why that she prefers to go to the countryside, 00:06:32.490 --> 00:06:35.230 then he starts to get maybe more frustrated or more annoyed. 00:06:35.330 --> 00:06:36.750 And because but here's the problem. 00:06:36.970 --> 00:06:41.110 He's unable to articulate his feelings or consider her perspective in a mature 00:06:41.110 --> 00:06:43.450 way because now he was impulsive. 00:06:43.690 --> 00:06:47.030 Now he's hearing her. Now he feels like, I guess I'm in trouble. I did it wrong. 00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:50.190 So instead of discussing it further, then he might just say, 00:06:50.210 --> 00:06:51.690 no, whatever, whatever you want to do, it's fine. 00:06:51.930 --> 00:06:57.210 Maybe even more play that that aggressive victim mode. And then that might lead to ignoring her. 00:06:57.490 --> 00:07:00.630 And so then we don't make a decision. So then we're kicking the can down the 00:07:00.630 --> 00:07:04.590 road because subconsciously, then he likes to work off of impulse. 00:07:04.970 --> 00:07:08.210 And then so if we all of a sudden have to quickly make a decision, 00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:09.870 well, now we're on his turf. 00:07:10.790 --> 00:07:14.570 Or if he is going to insist on his preference, he's going to do it maybe in 00:07:14.570 --> 00:07:16.230 more of a little kid, a childlike manner. 00:07:16.590 --> 00:07:19.510 Just, well, no, I don't want to, you know, I'm taking my ball and going home, 00:07:19.630 --> 00:07:25.590 focusing solely on what he wants without regard to compromise or even wondering what she wants. 00:07:26.479 --> 00:07:28.839 So the impact of the emotionally immature in the relationship, 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:32.599 she's frustrated and she probably feels lonely in the relationship because her 00:07:32.599 --> 00:07:37.179 attempts at having an adult mature conversation and then decision making are 00:07:37.179 --> 00:07:38.699 met with this emotional immaturity. 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:44.259 And that dynamic starts to lead to resentment because she then bears all the 00:07:44.259 --> 00:07:46.099 emotional labor of managing both her feelings. things. 00:07:46.359 --> 00:07:48.939 And this is where you often hear in this scenario where she feels like, 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.859 okay, I've just got another kid because she has to now also manage his inability 00:07:52.859 --> 00:07:55.059 to engage in a constructive dialogue. 00:07:55.499 --> 00:08:00.839 And the way he gets out of that discomfort is to throw a temper tantrum in which then he feels better. 00:08:01.379 --> 00:08:04.659 She's left with all the emotional baggage to clean up. And then five minutes 00:08:04.659 --> 00:08:06.179 later, he's ready to go ride bikes. 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:09.919 Let's do that. We're ready. I'm good. I'm good now, but we never really made 00:08:09.919 --> 00:08:13.539 a decision. I think it's important to look at all of these scenarios. 00:08:13.819 --> 00:08:18.339 In each version of the scenario, the guy's behavior impacts the relationship 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:19.199 a little bit differently. 00:08:19.339 --> 00:08:23.039 And that starts to reflect the underlying traits of the grandiose narcissist 00:08:23.039 --> 00:08:27.079 or the vulnerable narcissist and the person who struggles with emotional immaturity. 00:08:27.379 --> 00:08:32.039 So that grandiose narcissist, they dominate and they devalue. 00:08:32.179 --> 00:08:35.459 That vulnerable narcissist more or less manipulates emotionally. 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.459 And then the emotionally immature person just pretty much which fails to engage 00:08:40.459 --> 00:08:42.779 in any kind of meaningful or empathetic communication. 00:08:43.079 --> 00:08:47.459 So I want to read Introduction to Narcissism, and this is from theattachmentproject.com. 00:08:47.599 --> 00:08:50.599 But they say, Introduction to Narcissism, what is a narcissistic personality? 00:08:51.119 --> 00:08:54.739 They say, Narcissism refers to a personality trait that's characterized by a 00:08:54.739 --> 00:08:57.259 strong sense of entitlement for admiration and attention. 00:08:57.579 --> 00:09:01.659 It lies on a continuum from healthy levels, such as having one or two traits, 00:09:01.779 --> 00:09:05.699 to pathological levels of narcissism, known as narcissistic personality disorder. 00:09:06.099 --> 00:09:10.019 And I'm going to talk more about what they they talk about with the healthy 00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:14.379 version, which thanks to the work of Eleanor Greenberg, I've taken some of her 00:09:14.379 --> 00:09:17.019 information and talking about the concepts of healthy ego. 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:19.619 But somebody can have one or more 00:09:19.619 --> 00:09:22.619 narcissistic traits without having a narcissistic personality disorder. 00:09:22.839 --> 00:09:26.199 For example, they might be very attention-seeking, they might have bad listening 00:09:26.199 --> 00:09:29.279 skills, but that doesn't necessarily make them narcissists. 00:09:29.599 --> 00:09:33.099 But then they go on to say that, however, if we move along to the more severe 00:09:33.099 --> 00:09:36.999 end of the spectrum, narcissism swiftly becomes destructive and pathological, 00:09:36.999 --> 00:09:40.839 And then it morphs into, and I like what they say, into an obsession with promoting 00:09:40.839 --> 00:09:41.859 self-perceived superiority. 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:46.759 Hypervigilance, and then detecting challenges to authority, aggressively examining 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:47.679 potential competitors. 00:09:47.979 --> 00:09:52.219 And the reason I like that word obsession is because that obsession is something 00:09:52.219 --> 00:09:56.439 that then they just tend to crave, and that is what they are consumed by. 00:09:56.439 --> 00:10:02.479 And I still will go big on the concept of confabulation or a confabulated memory 00:10:02.479 --> 00:10:06.939 where the more that this is what they do, then that is the narrative that they 00:10:06.939 --> 00:10:10.019 are creating, that that is the way that everyone works. 00:10:10.139 --> 00:10:13.979 That's the way that you go through life is continually evaluating. 00:10:14.219 --> 00:10:17.519 How do I put myself in a one-up position? How do I align myself with someone 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:21.139 that is of high status? How do I put myself above somebody that's low status? 00:10:21.359 --> 00:10:23.719 And when that is what someone is thinking about. 00:10:24.508 --> 00:10:29.308 Over and over, it slowly becomes part of their implicit memory or what it feels 00:10:29.308 --> 00:10:33.088 like to be them, because that is part of their own slow residue of lived experience. 00:10:33.408 --> 00:10:37.828 So I think that it does become this obsession until it just becomes they are. 00:10:37.948 --> 00:10:42.428 It just is. In the article where they say it's like a scale, let me address that. 00:10:42.508 --> 00:10:46.268 Having a healthy ego, what that means is feeling good about yourself, 00:10:46.488 --> 00:10:49.648 but it's because of the real things that you've achieved. 00:10:49.828 --> 00:10:52.608 It's like giving yourself a pat on the back or more, actually, 00:10:52.668 --> 00:10:56.328 for the hard work that you've done and then the challenges that you faced head on. 00:10:56.568 --> 00:11:01.288 And this kind of self-confidence doesn't get knocked down by small problems 00:11:01.288 --> 00:11:05.508 or criticisms because it's built on your actual successes and efforts. 00:11:05.508 --> 00:11:09.408 A couple of examples might be, let's say that you've spent weeks preparing for 00:11:09.408 --> 00:11:12.508 a big presentation at work and you do a really good job because you've worked 00:11:12.508 --> 00:11:15.608 hard and you know what you're talking about and you do get that praise from 00:11:15.608 --> 00:11:16.968 your boss and you do get that validation. 00:11:17.428 --> 00:11:21.448 Feeling proud or confident in your abilities afterward, that's a sign of a healthy ego. 00:11:21.848 --> 00:11:25.108 That's a sign of confidence because you recognize your effort and your success 00:11:25.108 --> 00:11:30.188 and then that boosts your self-esteem and it's not your job to play small so 00:11:30.188 --> 00:11:33.148 that others around you won't feel bad. 00:11:34.050 --> 00:11:37.710 Or let's say that you've been playing golf a ton and then you start to really 00:11:37.710 --> 00:11:39.930 play well, you can celebrate your improvement. 00:11:40.030 --> 00:11:43.690 You can acknowledge your hard work because that's another example of a healthy ego. 00:11:44.190 --> 00:11:47.350 It's about knowing that you've grown and you've achieved something because of 00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:48.970 your dedication and your practice. 00:11:49.510 --> 00:11:54.530 Because in both of these cases, your positive self-view is based on real accomplishments 00:11:54.530 --> 00:11:59.770 and effort, not just a desire, which is the difference for attention or approval from others. 00:12:00.090 --> 00:12:04.030 And then that makes your self-confidence and strong and resilient because life 00:12:04.030 --> 00:12:05.650 is going to continue to have ups and downs. 00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:11.090 But if you are learning who you are, then you're going to be able to navigate those storms, 00:12:11.150 --> 00:12:16.050 those ups and downs from a place of confidence because everything then that 00:12:16.050 --> 00:12:19.070 you are learning becomes something that you can internalize, 00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.510 that it can become part of who you are, or everything you interact with can 00:12:22.510 --> 00:12:25.190 be something that you recognize that isn't something I care much for, 00:12:25.230 --> 00:12:26.810 or I don't know enough about it. 00:12:27.350 --> 00:12:31.430 Or here are a couple of scenarios that are plucked right out of my office recently. 00:12:31.990 --> 00:12:36.630 This one I see often. So it's a stay-at-home mom questioning her worth or value 00:12:36.630 --> 00:12:38.610 because of her husband's emotional immaturity. 00:12:38.870 --> 00:12:42.670 So she is juggling schedules and kids and homework, and more importantly, 00:12:42.810 --> 00:12:46.030 their emotions and their fears and their interactions with their friends. 00:12:46.630 --> 00:12:51.630 It's as if the moms themselves become therapists to a whole lot of little personality disorders. 00:12:52.010 --> 00:12:57.130 Also, they are taxi drivers, or I guess in this day and age, Uber drivers. 00:12:57.330 --> 00:13:00.690 But they're also So playing the role of motivational speaker and cook and tutor 00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:02.010 and personal assistant. 00:13:02.090 --> 00:13:08.370 And I could go on and then to have her husband come home and first off say he's 00:13:08.370 --> 00:13:10.850 just so exhausted. He doesn't really want to hear it right now. 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:14.170 Then he acts put out when he sees that his wife's pretty frazzled. 00:13:14.210 --> 00:13:16.130 She's had a must have had a day. 00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:19.150 And then he's telling her, you just need to be more positive. 00:13:19.330 --> 00:13:22.030 I wouldn't let him get to you. You know how lucky you've got it to be able to 00:13:22.030 --> 00:13:24.230 spend time with him and because of the work that I do. 00:13:25.183 --> 00:13:28.683 He goes off and he talks to the kids for a little bit, or maybe more or less 00:13:28.683 --> 00:13:31.043 talks at them for a little bit, checks off that box. 00:13:31.223 --> 00:13:34.363 There we go. I'm a great dad. Now, granted, they didn't seem as impressed as 00:13:34.363 --> 00:13:38.883 they should have about my heroic high school sports story of triumph over low odds. 00:13:39.203 --> 00:13:42.163 So let me work that in the background. Let me confabulate that a little bit 00:13:42.163 --> 00:13:45.723 more. So next time I cart that thing out, I sound even better. 00:13:46.703 --> 00:13:50.683 And the wife is the one spending that time with the kids. is how maybe the kids 00:13:50.683 --> 00:13:55.243 open up to her and she watches and she watches the kid be so excited to talk 00:13:55.243 --> 00:13:56.823 to dad, really wants dad's attention. 00:13:57.403 --> 00:14:02.263 And instead he seems deflated when the dad again talks at him. 00:14:02.783 --> 00:14:07.163 So she pulls dad aside and says, Hey, why don't you maybe ask him more about 00:14:07.163 --> 00:14:11.803 how basketball tryouts went or ask him about his friend drama and what happens 00:14:11.803 --> 00:14:13.143 with the emotionally immature guy. 00:14:13.463 --> 00:14:17.923 Then he says, Oh, I guess I just do everything wrong. And you're the better 00:14:17.923 --> 00:14:19.503 parent. So you're telling me I'm doing it wrong? 00:14:19.763 --> 00:14:22.163 Sorry for being at work all day. I wish I could just call her with her daughter 00:14:22.163 --> 00:14:25.983 and listen to podcasts in the car while I just luxuriously drive kids around 00:14:25.983 --> 00:14:28.623 in the huge car, I might add, that I bought you. 00:14:29.063 --> 00:14:33.543 So she shuts down. And even worse, she questions her own worth as a mom. mom. 00:14:34.243 --> 00:14:38.343 Because if you can't tell already, this mom, other moms, 00:14:38.523 --> 00:14:44.183 so many of the stay-at-home moms, I think, I mean, all of them need to accept 00:14:44.183 --> 00:14:48.863 and develop that healthy ego or know that they do know more about what's going 00:14:48.863 --> 00:14:51.383 on in their kids' lives because they are putting in the time. 00:14:51.423 --> 00:14:52.983 It's based off a real life experience. 00:14:53.543 --> 00:14:57.203 And I wish in those scenarios, her husband would be grateful and start with praise and admiration. 00:14:57.483 --> 00:15:00.303 Tell me more about your day. Not, so what did you do today? day, 00:15:00.303 --> 00:15:01.623 maybe with a snarky tone. 00:15:01.923 --> 00:15:06.283 Or if she dares open up to him, she's met with, oh, so you've had a busy day? 00:15:06.363 --> 00:15:08.163 Oh man, I feel so sorry for you. 00:15:09.051 --> 00:15:12.971 Or let's flip the script a little bit where the wife is the more emotionally immature. 00:15:13.191 --> 00:15:16.931 We've got a guy who's working and slaying the dragon and taking care of the 00:15:16.931 --> 00:15:21.251 kids and trying to be everything and everywhere at one time because his wife 00:15:21.251 --> 00:15:23.131 just really doesn't want to make her own decisions. 00:15:23.551 --> 00:15:25.871 And this is something that's been prevalent in the relationship. 00:15:26.271 --> 00:15:29.791 Let's just say, hypothetically, she needs a car, a new car. And he says, 00:15:29.911 --> 00:15:30.951 cool, whatever one you want. 00:15:31.211 --> 00:15:35.411 And she says, but I don't know which one. You need to help me understand. 00:15:35.571 --> 00:15:38.171 You need to help me decide which one to get, says the wife. life. 00:15:38.491 --> 00:15:41.931 And he says, no, no, no, honey, you're you pick. You're the one that's driving 00:15:41.931 --> 00:15:42.951 it. You're with the kids. 00:15:43.131 --> 00:15:46.051 I'm her. I don't want to get something. And then here you go. 00:15:46.071 --> 00:15:48.591 You're not going to like it. And he says, I'm honestly, I'm good. 00:15:48.911 --> 00:15:52.731 I know that if I don't, because I'm literally saying you pick, 00:15:52.871 --> 00:15:55.171 I want you to whatever works for you. 00:15:55.511 --> 00:15:57.951 That if then I say that I don't like it, that's a me problem. 00:15:58.111 --> 00:16:00.971 And I'm not going to say that because I'm literally telling you, 00:16:01.031 --> 00:16:02.711 it is whatever you would like. 00:16:03.151 --> 00:16:07.211 Healthy ego, because he's realized through his own personal therapy that he 00:16:07.211 --> 00:16:11.511 has typically been somebody that could have been a little bit more emotionally 00:16:11.511 --> 00:16:13.451 mature, passive aggressive, that nice guy syndrome, 00:16:13.651 --> 00:16:18.031 the covert contracts where he was showing up a little bit more pathologically, 00:16:18.191 --> 00:16:21.631 him pathologically kind, trying to just, if I just keep the peace, 00:16:21.711 --> 00:16:25.471 everybody's happy, then she'll be happy and then she'll appreciate me. 00:16:25.551 --> 00:16:27.091 That's not what's happening here. 00:16:27.571 --> 00:16:29.151 Because what she needs is she needs 00:16:29.151 --> 00:16:33.111 to pull him into the, I need you to to ultimately make this decision. 00:16:33.271 --> 00:16:36.511 So then if the car is great, well, it's great. You don't get any credit though. 00:16:36.751 --> 00:16:39.031 As a matter of fact, I'll probably eventually take credit for that. 00:16:39.151 --> 00:16:41.091 Or then let's be really clear. 00:16:41.371 --> 00:16:44.391 If we have a problem with the car or it's bad, then I get to say, 00:16:44.551 --> 00:16:47.771 Hey, well, you said you thought it was good. So what was I supposed to do? 00:16:48.131 --> 00:16:52.791 So in those scenarios, he's set up for failure in both of those scenarios. 00:16:52.891 --> 00:16:57.471 And the one, the stay at home mom and this guy need to develop that healthy 00:16:57.471 --> 00:17:00.291 ego, that sense of self based on real life experience. 00:17:00.871 --> 00:17:04.051 And the stay at home mom Example, she's in the trenches. She's self-confronting. 00:17:04.071 --> 00:17:06.091 She's putting in the work. Her husband is too busy. 00:17:06.491 --> 00:17:09.631 And in the story where the husband was more emotionally mature. 00:17:10.645 --> 00:17:13.045 Then I was going to say, unfortunately, but no. Fortunately, 00:17:13.245 --> 00:17:16.865 now he does see his wife's immaturity, and then he can't unsee it. 00:17:16.905 --> 00:17:20.965 But he also knows that he can't convince her or control or manipulate her into 00:17:20.965 --> 00:17:21.905 seeing her own struggles. 00:17:22.385 --> 00:17:27.705 So he's opting out of the craziness. She is subconsciously determined to bring the crazy back. 00:17:28.605 --> 00:17:32.005 New Justin Timberlake song. Anybody? I'm bringing crazy back. 00:17:32.385 --> 00:17:35.945 Anyway, what I want to do now is I want to share a little bit about my own journey. 00:17:36.085 --> 00:17:39.765 And it is deeply personal, but it's led me to where I am now. 00:17:39.765 --> 00:17:44.985 And this isn't what the episode is really about. We're going back into those attachment styles. 00:17:45.205 --> 00:17:48.605 But I think this part, this is why I wanted to break out and talk more about 00:17:48.605 --> 00:17:52.985 the healthy ego and talk about pathological defensive narcissism, 00:17:52.985 --> 00:17:59.305 because I think that we want to start painting a picture of what it can look like to self-confront, 00:17:59.385 --> 00:18:04.245 even coming from a place of insecure attachment or impulsive or emotionally immature, 00:18:04.505 --> 00:18:08.805 because I have been been getting more and more emails of people that are asking 00:18:08.805 --> 00:18:10.185 for the success stories. 00:18:10.245 --> 00:18:13.485 And I don't want to get on and dramatically say, well, I wish I could find them, 00:18:13.525 --> 00:18:17.165 but I don't want the success stories that are the ones about the people that 00:18:17.165 --> 00:18:18.945 then end up having to leave all the time. 00:18:19.325 --> 00:18:25.545 Because when I got into this, this career, I really wanted to help and save 00:18:25.545 --> 00:18:26.565 all the marriages again. 00:18:26.665 --> 00:18:29.725 Now I realized that was a me thing that I would feel better about myself, 00:18:29.805 --> 00:18:33.985 but we're providing the the tools, and then it really is up to the clients, 00:18:34.245 --> 00:18:36.985 both of them to put in the work, to self-confront, to try to grow. 00:18:37.145 --> 00:18:40.725 And at some point, unfortunately, a lot of the times, 00:18:41.185 --> 00:18:44.885 it's one person putting in the work and then the other person, 00:18:44.945 --> 00:18:48.465 if they are immature, feeling then continually challenged and questioned, 00:18:48.525 --> 00:18:52.245 they are just showing more of the same. 00:18:52.805 --> 00:18:55.725 So they might have a little bit of change, a little bit of, okay, 00:18:55.745 --> 00:18:59.945 that makes sense, but and not willing to sit with that discomfort and grow and 00:18:59.945 --> 00:19:02.305 self-confront and recognize they don't know everything. 00:19:02.405 --> 00:19:05.585 They don't know what they don't know. It's okay to be open and vulnerable and 00:19:05.585 --> 00:19:09.785 but to show up and do that consistently from an emotionally consistent place. 00:19:10.265 --> 00:19:14.225 So I do want to start giving more of those examples of what the real waking 00:19:14.225 --> 00:19:15.285 up process can look like. 00:19:15.325 --> 00:19:18.665 And I think that the healthy ego piece is such a key component, 00:19:18.805 --> 00:19:24.865 although it has often been weaponized, which is part of that challenge of sharing 00:19:24.865 --> 00:19:28.605 some of the success stories to the truly emotionally immature, 00:19:28.685 --> 00:19:33.105 or even the person with severe narcissistic traits, tendencies, 00:19:33.125 --> 00:19:34.905 or right up to personality disorder, 00:19:35.165 --> 00:19:39.345 because then they are listening and they are taking notes and they're coming away from this. 00:19:39.445 --> 00:19:43.525 I mentioned this on a previous episode of saying, okay, am I a narcissist? 00:19:43.685 --> 00:19:44.725 Okay, then Tony says I'm not. 00:19:45.105 --> 00:19:48.445 Instead of saying, no, if I'm the one that's It's been asking, wait, am I? 00:19:48.485 --> 00:19:52.065 Because I'm continually trying to show up and be aware and get the relationship 00:19:52.065 --> 00:19:54.225 to move in a better direction and change. 00:19:54.425 --> 00:19:57.105 And I'm continually finding myself feeling like what's wrong with me. 00:19:57.889 --> 00:20:00.649 Then that's the person that's continually saying, is it me? 00:20:00.809 --> 00:20:04.609 Am I the narcissist? Not the person who has been fine and tells the other person 00:20:04.609 --> 00:20:07.789 to get over it for a long period of time until they finally listen to a podcast 00:20:07.789 --> 00:20:11.449 and say, okay, no, I'm not. Because I just asked myself that. 00:20:11.929 --> 00:20:15.609 So again, if somebody is listening to this next part about healthy ego versus 00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:19.489 pathological defensive narcissism, and then they say, okay, I now understand 00:20:19.489 --> 00:20:21.589 what healthy ego is. I have that. I don't have the other thing. 00:20:21.669 --> 00:20:24.409 So now every chance I get, I'm going to parade this thing out and I'm I'm going 00:20:24.409 --> 00:20:27.389 to hit somebody over the head with my healthy ego. Not the point. 00:20:28.049 --> 00:20:31.709 So there is an author named Eleanor Greenberg who writes about narcissism a lot. 00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:35.209 And she shared the following, which it's funny because it almost seems like 00:20:35.209 --> 00:20:38.049 a bit of an odd read at first because she talks about the healthy narcissism 00:20:38.049 --> 00:20:39.869 versus pathological defensive narcissism. 00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:43.969 So I will continually say that what I've done is openly changed the word narcissism 00:20:43.969 --> 00:20:49.109 in her definition to healthy ego, because I think that really makes more sense 00:20:49.109 --> 00:20:50.609 for the work that I personally do. 00:20:50.609 --> 00:20:54.929 So she says normal versus pathological narcissism that unfortunately in the English language, 00:20:55.129 --> 00:20:58.869 the word narcissism has come to mean two entirely different things, 00:20:58.929 --> 00:21:02.789 depending on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis as an NPD, 00:21:02.929 --> 00:21:07.189 narcissistic personality disorder, or informally as a synonym for positive self-regard. 00:21:07.289 --> 00:21:10.669 I definitely think we don't talk about it in that regard, if at all, 00:21:10.709 --> 00:21:12.869 with any positivity to it. 00:21:12.929 --> 00:21:16.689 And I'm not saying we need to. We need to get a new PR firm and a new hype man 00:21:16.689 --> 00:21:19.929 for the word narcissism. No, but I just think it's interesting to see where 00:21:19.929 --> 00:21:22.669 it used to be and what it is evolved to. 00:21:23.189 --> 00:21:26.369 So then I'm often asked, then, isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and normal? 00:21:26.709 --> 00:21:30.729 And so Eleanor says she would like to clarify that before she goes on. 00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:34.989 So then her definition, where then I'm going to replace narcissism with ego, normal, healthy ego. 00:21:35.149 --> 00:21:39.329 This is a realistic sense of positive self-regard based on the person's accomplishments. 00:21:39.389 --> 00:21:43.189 It is relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their self-image, 00:21:43.269 --> 00:21:47.289 the success that came from their actual hard work to overcome real-life obstacles. 00:21:47.749 --> 00:21:51.589 And because it's based on real achievements, normal, healthy ego is relatively 00:21:51.589 --> 00:21:55.509 impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life. 00:21:56.251 --> 00:22:01.371 Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in 00:22:01.371 --> 00:22:05.391 our real self-interest and that are associated with our genuine self-respect. 00:22:05.671 --> 00:22:09.531 And one can think of it as something that is inside of us. So I think you can 00:22:09.531 --> 00:22:19.571 see the almost fine line that it walks on that is between arrogance versus confidence and healthy ego. 00:22:20.191 --> 00:22:24.391 And then, so this is why I talk so much about the healthy ego, 00:22:24.531 --> 00:22:26.551 but it's part of the, I didn't even know what I didn't know. 00:22:26.991 --> 00:22:29.731 But the more that you study about it, the more you learn about yourself, 00:22:29.931 --> 00:22:33.591 the more you test the things that you're studying, you internalize the things that you're learning. 00:22:34.031 --> 00:22:37.431 And then you realize that these are things that resonate with me and that now I understand. 00:22:37.511 --> 00:22:40.611 It helps me understand how I used to act or how I might even act now, 00:22:40.691 --> 00:22:44.211 but it's coming from a place of a healthier ego because I'm the only one that 00:22:44.211 --> 00:22:46.231 truly knows and understands what I didn't know before. 00:22:47.151 --> 00:22:50.771 Now contrast that with pathological defensive narcissism. That's a defense against 00:22:50.771 --> 00:22:52.051 feelings of inferiority. 00:22:52.651 --> 00:22:55.691 And so I think it's so important in what we're talking about today the person dons 00:22:55.691 --> 00:22:58.571 a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world 00:22:58.571 --> 00:23:01.551 that they are special but inside they 00:23:01.551 --> 00:23:05.531 feel so insecure about their own actual self-worth so 00:23:05.531 --> 00:23:09.051 that this facade of superiority is so thin that it is like a helium balloon 00:23:09.051 --> 00:23:13.151 and a tiny little pin prickle deflated and this makes the person hypersensitive 00:23:13.151 --> 00:23:16.731 to minor slights and setbacks that somebody with healthy narcissism wouldn't 00:23:16.731 --> 00:23:20.231 even notice so somebody with this pathological defensive narcissism, 00:23:20.231 --> 00:23:21.891 they are very easily wounded. 00:23:21.971 --> 00:23:27.171 They take any form of disagreement as serious criticism, and they're very likely 00:23:27.171 --> 00:23:32.271 to lash out and devalue anybody who thinks that they disagree with them. 00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:35.500 And so they're constantly on guard trying to protect their status, 00:23:35.580 --> 00:23:39.540 to protect their ego. And that's thought of more of a protective armor that's on the outside. 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.240 So that's the pathological defense of narcissism. I started my career in software 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:44.680 marketing and sales right out of college. 00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:47.640 Computers weren't even really my passion. They weren't my thing, 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:50.780 but it was a good opportunity. But there it was, spending a decade in an industry 00:23:50.780 --> 00:23:52.700 that really didn't light me up inside. 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:58.640 And I didn't know what I didn't know. And that decade, there were wonderful times, and it was tough. 00:23:58.820 --> 00:24:02.160 But it taught me a lot about resilience and then an adaptability. 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:06.120 And those are qualities that I didn't realize were happening in the background 00:24:06.120 --> 00:24:10.640 that they would go on to help me shape a pretty solid sense of self because 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:14.360 it took a long time. So that's where the things really get interesting to me. 00:24:14.600 --> 00:24:17.820 In my early 30s, I take a leap and I can go on and on about that. 00:24:17.860 --> 00:24:21.060 I go back to grad school to study marriage and family therapy and it was like 00:24:21.060 --> 00:24:22.200 somebody turned on the light. 00:24:22.320 --> 00:24:25.000 Suddenly, I felt this whole sense of belonging, this sense of purpose, 00:24:25.080 --> 00:24:27.380 this connection and it was so real. 00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:30.580 It was so tangible. It was so immediate and it was It was just to me undeniable, 00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:33.080 but it was clear to me that I'd found my calling. 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:37.600 This, I didn't know at the time, was where I would start to understand healthy 00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:41.240 ego because I'm learning something that matters to me, that I can put into practice, 00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:44.640 that I'm curious about, and that just becomes a part of me. 00:24:44.860 --> 00:24:48.780 So, it's something that just is so aligned with me that it really helped me 00:24:48.780 --> 00:24:51.420 become who I am and it just spoke to me at my core. 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:57.700 And I really think finding that alignment or that purpose or that passion is 00:24:57.700 --> 00:24:59.120 such a key to building a healthy ego. 00:24:59.620 --> 00:25:02.960 And if you don't feel like you know what that is, that doesn't mean you must find it. 00:25:03.060 --> 00:25:07.140 You must just start now on your journey. Be aware and know that point A is going 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:10.700 to lead to B and B to C and C to D, that it's not just I now need to know my 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:14.860 passion and just live that only and go into this echo chamber. 00:25:14.860 --> 00:25:20.440 No, it's about starting to take a look at that. What would that look like? What would that mean? 00:25:21.040 --> 00:25:25.480 And it was a pretty lengthy journey. So now we fast forward over 20 years from the start of it. 00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:32.400 And here I am now drawing immense satisfaction, pride for my work in therapy, 00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:33.500 counseling, mental health. 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.700 And that fulfillment isn't just a feeling, it's built on real, 00:25:36.820 --> 00:25:40.920 here we go, tangible success and on positive impact that I've hopefully been 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:43.860 able to have on others, but primarily what I've been able to do for myself. self. 00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:46.720 And so when you're operating from that place of healthy ego, 00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:50.360 now it's okay. You learn to welcome criticism because it's not a threat. 00:25:50.520 --> 00:25:55.180 I don't have to defend my fragile ego, but to offer me a chance to grow. 00:25:55.380 --> 00:25:59.080 It's an absolute opportunity to then take in the feedback. And I get to sit 00:25:59.080 --> 00:26:02.740 with that from a place of confidence saying, Oh, I absolutely know what I know, 00:26:02.780 --> 00:26:05.880 but I also know that means there are things that I don't know that I don't know. 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:09.640 So I want the data so that then I get to synthesize that data. 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:16.040 I get to see if that does does align with the parts that I want to make better in me. 00:26:17.110 --> 00:26:21.710 And so then that becomes proof of more secure self-esteem and then a testament 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:24.850 to personally my belief in feedback as a tool for personal development. 00:26:25.010 --> 00:26:28.070 But it doesn't mean that I have to now change my identity because somebody else 00:26:28.070 --> 00:26:30.250 feels uncomfortable or doesn't like the thing I'm doing. 00:26:30.890 --> 00:26:36.130 And then my passion for this work has been woven itself into the very fabric of my own identity. 00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:40.110 And it becomes not just what I do, but it's a fundamental part of who I am, 00:26:40.150 --> 00:26:42.410 how I see the world in this deep connection with my work. 00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:48.130 Then it, in a sense, and I wanted to just say the word shield came to mind, 00:26:48.170 --> 00:26:52.430 but I don't mean it in a negative way, but it shield me from criticism and grounds 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:56.110 my self-worth as something far more meaningful than just external validation, 00:26:56.350 --> 00:27:01.350 which is what the emotional immature parts of us just crave so much, 00:27:01.390 --> 00:27:02.250 that external validation. 00:27:02.930 --> 00:27:08.510 So personally, this journey becomes this testament to me of starting down the 00:27:08.510 --> 00:27:09.850 path of pursuing your genuine interest. 00:27:09.990 --> 00:27:12.550 And if you are in a healthy relationship, your spouse supports you. 00:27:12.810 --> 00:27:15.930 They can express, yeah, it might be more difficult. You might have to have some 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:19.610 conversations around what the changing dynamic in the home can look like, 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:25.270 but it is starting to pursue those self-interests that help you face life's 00:27:25.270 --> 00:27:26.190 challenges more head on. 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:30.010 And it's because you're finding more satisfaction in making a difference. 00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:35.050 And it is for me been transformative marked by now the, the relentless pursuit, 00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:37.130 I think of just growth and fulfillment. 00:27:37.870 --> 00:27:41.670 But I go back to this time in the computer industry when I was essentially wearing 00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:43.130 a mask to hide my insecurities. 00:27:43.470 --> 00:27:47.050 I mean, if you kind of just picture that you're feeling, at least I felt unsure 00:27:47.050 --> 00:27:51.170 of myself, but overcompensating by acting like I know more than I do. 00:27:51.650 --> 00:27:54.930 And I was trying so hard to make everybody believe I was special because I was 00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:57.470 terrified of being seen as anything less. 00:27:57.530 --> 00:27:59.830 But in the time I wasn't aware of that. 00:28:00.753 --> 00:28:06.733 So the act I was doing was fragile, like the balloon that I talked about earlier, 00:28:06.833 --> 00:28:09.333 the helium balloon, because it really could pop at any moment, 00:28:09.373 --> 00:28:10.753 every slight disagreement. 00:28:11.153 --> 00:28:15.593 And when you really are feeling emotionally insecure and immature, 00:28:15.693 --> 00:28:21.133 then you're overreading any kind of slight or any facial expression or sigh 00:28:21.133 --> 00:28:25.173 that they do feel like these personal attacks that then have you. 00:28:25.173 --> 00:28:29.633 And sometimes people don't necessarily lash out to maintain or defend their fragile ego. 00:28:29.673 --> 00:28:32.753 They could withdraw, or they could then go into people-pleasing mode, 00:28:32.813 --> 00:28:34.413 or they can reach out to unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:28:34.873 --> 00:28:38.353 So when I reflect on that stint in the computer industry, I now see that I was 00:28:38.353 --> 00:28:42.353 in a defensive mode, trying to cover up my lack of passion and my sense of belonging 00:28:42.353 --> 00:28:44.253 with this just veneer of confidence. 00:28:44.893 --> 00:28:47.893 But to those who really knew their stuff in the computer industry, 00:28:48.073 --> 00:28:51.773 I can't even imagine how silly I must have sounded. Now, to them, 00:28:51.773 --> 00:28:53.233 my act was as clear as a bell. 00:28:54.053 --> 00:28:58.353 They saw right through me, I would imagine, which in hindsight was probably a lesson in itself. 00:28:58.573 --> 00:29:01.633 This phase of my life, I look back, was a clear contrast between hiding behind 00:29:01.633 --> 00:29:05.793 a mask of perceived competence and what I didn't even know I didn't know. 00:29:06.713 --> 00:29:10.093 Growing into eventually a genuinely self-assured individual, 00:29:10.373 --> 00:29:13.293 but who is willing to take on criticism and feedback. back. 00:29:13.493 --> 00:29:17.213 And it highlights that difference between pretending to be somebody that I'm 00:29:17.213 --> 00:29:21.593 not, but not even knowing, but then finding true value and purpose in what I do. 00:29:22.173 --> 00:29:25.593 So that transitioning from the computer industry to this career in therapy wasn't 00:29:25.593 --> 00:29:29.773 just a career change, but it was a profound shift towards authenticity, 00:29:30.053 --> 00:29:31.473 you know, about self-acceptance. 00:29:31.673 --> 00:29:34.513 So that's a bit of that part of my story. 00:29:34.593 --> 00:29:38.813 It's about getting to that other side, not just intact, but stronger, 00:29:39.073 --> 00:29:43.493 more confident, and then becoming genuinely happy with the path that you've chosen. 00:29:44.477 --> 00:29:47.437 And so if you're in these relationships where you are burning so many emotional 00:29:47.437 --> 00:29:50.037 calories just trying to survive, stay alive, you feel stuck, 00:29:50.097 --> 00:29:52.997 and you don't know who you are, and you don't have a sense of purpose or self, 00:29:53.157 --> 00:29:55.777 then, well, you're here right now. 00:29:55.797 --> 00:29:58.777 If you're listening to these very words, that means that you're working on it. 00:29:59.517 --> 00:30:03.377 And I think it's important also to note that this may be the beginning of your 00:30:03.377 --> 00:30:06.017 journey. You might still be on the very start of it. 00:30:06.077 --> 00:30:09.837 You might be in that messy middle section, but you're on that path, 00:30:09.877 --> 00:30:12.397 on that journey, and know that it can shift and it can change. 00:30:12.397 --> 00:30:15.857 And you can start noticing things you like and then start to do more of those 00:30:15.857 --> 00:30:18.577 things and realize I actually maybe don't like those things. And that's okay. 00:30:19.177 --> 00:30:22.597 You're not doing it wrong. You're doing it the way you do it because it's how 00:30:22.597 --> 00:30:24.117 you're doing it. And it turns out you're you. 00:30:24.437 --> 00:30:27.637 So that's starting to learn to trust that gut, lean into the things in your 00:30:27.637 --> 00:30:30.717 own experiences of what you like and maybe what you don't like and what you 00:30:30.717 --> 00:30:33.977 want to do and what you don't want to do and just continuing to move forward 00:30:33.977 --> 00:30:36.357 and act and do and give yourself grace. 00:30:36.357 --> 00:30:40.677 And anyway, not having to burn as many emotional calories, trying to figure 00:30:40.677 --> 00:30:45.737 out what is wrong with me, the situation, the relationship, and just learning how to be and do. 00:30:46.117 --> 00:30:52.757 So back to the article. So the experts really in this scenario talk about two 00:30:52.757 --> 00:30:53.877 main types of narcissism. 00:30:53.997 --> 00:30:57.757 They're really going down and breaking down the types of vulnerable and grandiose. 00:30:57.777 --> 00:31:02.137 So the vulnerable narcissist, they do appear to be more insecure. 00:31:02.237 --> 00:31:05.877 They appear to be more or less outgoing, while the grandiose narcissist are 00:31:05.877 --> 00:31:06.977 the opposite. They're bold. 00:31:07.177 --> 00:31:10.017 They crave attention. They act as though they are better than everybody else. 00:31:10.377 --> 00:31:15.177 But both types, though, they talk about share a belief in their own specialness, their own superiority. 00:31:15.677 --> 00:31:20.377 Just they get their way in a different fashion, leading them, 00:31:20.417 --> 00:31:23.917 though, to behave in ways that are ultimately exploitive, manipulative. 00:31:24.157 --> 00:31:28.057 So let's talk about the grandiose narcissist, because that's the type that we hear about more often. 00:31:28.277 --> 00:31:31.477 And that's the part that features more of the traits of entitlement, 00:31:31.537 --> 00:31:35.237 the need for admiration, sometimes with aggression, desire for dominance. 00:31:35.437 --> 00:31:38.537 A lot of the people that come into my office say, yeah, he doesn't or she doesn't 00:31:38.537 --> 00:31:40.477 really fit the pattern of the grandiose narcissist. 00:31:40.957 --> 00:31:44.177 That's why I talk so much about emotional immaturity because it's more of either 00:31:44.177 --> 00:31:48.357 the vulnerable narcissist you often see or the fact that we're all emotionally immature. 00:31:48.897 --> 00:31:52.957 Because the grandiose narcissists are known to deny their flaws, 00:31:53.237 --> 00:31:56.917 take credit for successes while blaming others for failure. 00:31:57.117 --> 00:32:01.637 And those concepts can move in and out between grandiose, vulnerable, 00:32:01.637 --> 00:32:03.017 and emotional immaturity. 00:32:04.327 --> 00:32:07.607 They will still react with anger when their expectations are not met, 00:32:07.667 --> 00:32:09.807 and they also tend to devalue those who question their authority. 00:32:10.167 --> 00:32:15.547 So in relationships, then, that narcissism, that significantly can impact it. 00:32:15.607 --> 00:32:19.887 And it's because the narcissist then will engage in manipulative behaviors like 00:32:19.887 --> 00:32:21.907 gaslighting. They can be verbally and emotionally abusive. 00:32:21.987 --> 00:32:25.307 Their approach to love is more about playing a game and maintaining control 00:32:25.307 --> 00:32:27.007 rather than seeking genuine intimacy. 00:32:27.187 --> 00:32:30.527 And I would say that it's because they truly don't know what they don't know. 00:32:30.627 --> 00:32:32.867 They're not even aware of it. it. And then if you're trying to talk to them, 00:32:32.987 --> 00:32:37.627 talk them into it, try to get them to be more empathetic or convince them of 00:32:37.627 --> 00:32:41.507 genuine intimacy, you're playing into the, well, if you think that you have 00:32:41.507 --> 00:32:42.927 a different opinion than me, then you're wrong. 00:32:43.007 --> 00:32:45.187 And now I know what to do with it. And I'm going to defend my fragile ego. 00:32:45.847 --> 00:32:51.047 So as a result, that's why this human magnet syndrome starts because they tend 00:32:51.047 --> 00:32:54.367 to prefer partners who will admire and focus the attention on them rather than 00:32:54.367 --> 00:32:57.647 forming a true loving connection because they don't really, 00:32:57.707 --> 00:33:01.487 they're so afraid of their core Or if somebody really sees them, 00:33:01.547 --> 00:33:03.987 that then they will not love them. 00:33:04.607 --> 00:33:08.627 Now, the vulnerable narcissist is sometimes also known as covert narcissist. 00:33:09.007 --> 00:33:12.847 They don't often show off their feelings of being better than others or deserving 00:33:12.847 --> 00:33:14.327 more, but they are there. 00:33:14.487 --> 00:33:19.047 They might seem more shy or kind, but deep down, they do believe that they are 00:33:19.047 --> 00:33:22.987 still entitled to special treatment, much like their more outspoken or grandiose counterparts. 00:33:23.767 --> 00:33:26.887 But they're not going to admit that on the outside. And then, 00:33:26.887 --> 00:33:29.907 so then unlike those who openly demand recognition and respect, 00:33:30.007 --> 00:33:33.607 the vulnerable or covert narcissist, they often react negatively when they feel 00:33:33.607 --> 00:33:34.867 overlooked or underrated. 00:33:34.907 --> 00:33:37.987 That's the way that they exert the control to get the person back into the relationship. 00:33:38.547 --> 00:33:43.587 So they might feel ashamed or sad or quietly angry, but then those are the tools 00:33:43.587 --> 00:33:47.727 to get to the validation or to get the attention put back on them. 00:33:47.727 --> 00:33:51.767 So some of those signs of being a vulnerable narcissist are very extremely sensitive 00:33:51.767 --> 00:33:55.607 to what others say or think about them, not feeling good enough or often wrestling 00:33:55.607 --> 00:33:58.427 with the high standards that they will set for themselves, but then they don't 00:33:58.427 --> 00:34:01.367 want to take ownership of the fact that they are the ones that set the standards 00:34:01.367 --> 00:34:02.187 that they were unrealistic. 00:34:02.367 --> 00:34:06.267 So now they still need to blame somebody else or they often feel upset or distressed 00:34:06.267 --> 00:34:08.147 when they don't get the special treatment that they expect. 00:34:08.910 --> 00:34:13.150 Which then leaves them having essentially a very shaky sense of self-worth. 00:34:13.450 --> 00:34:16.190 So then you can see those mood swings, emotional ups and downs, 00:34:16.250 --> 00:34:20.230 especially when they feel threatened or what they feel aren't given their due 00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:25.490 respect, which leads sometimes to daydreaming about achieving great things or being admired. 00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:30.070 And then I think that part of the confabulation machine of their own brain is 00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:32.390 that daydreaming about achieving the great things. 00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:35.990 Then if they're actually not achieving those great things, then they need to 00:34:35.990 --> 00:34:40.190 create a narrative of the things that they did achieve that we've got great 00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:42.030 examples of things that just really never happened. 00:34:42.510 --> 00:34:46.070 A lot of the examples I've received recently have been from one of the episodes 00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:49.370 I did where people that are writing in about their finding out that their parent 00:34:49.370 --> 00:34:51.510 didn't play a college sport that they said, 00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:55.370 or finding out that they didn't really save a friend in NAMM, 00:34:55.370 --> 00:34:58.210 or I mean, pretty, pretty grandiose examples, 00:34:58.430 --> 00:35:02.730 but or using others to get what they want or to maintain their sense of superiority, 00:35:02.870 --> 00:35:03.970 even in close relationships. 00:35:03.970 --> 00:35:08.030 And so then I do want to take a little bit of time to differentiate between 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:09.810 vulnerable narcissism and emotional immaturity. 00:35:10.210 --> 00:35:14.410 And that's what led to the stories that I started today's podcast with. 00:35:14.690 --> 00:35:19.710 So when you look at vulnerable narcissism as maybe our touchstone or our jumping 00:35:19.710 --> 00:35:23.790 off point, that it is that deep seated sense of entitlement, 00:35:23.790 --> 00:35:25.850 superiority, not typically displayed openly. openly. 00:35:26.050 --> 00:35:29.190 And what we were just saying there that individuals with this trait, 00:35:29.230 --> 00:35:31.090 they feel special, they believe they deserve more than others, 00:35:31.150 --> 00:35:31.990 even if they don't show it. 00:35:32.170 --> 00:35:36.010 And then despite that outward appearance, they may even appear to be shy or 00:35:36.010 --> 00:35:40.010 very empathetic, but they share that deep core belief, the grandiose narcissist, 00:35:40.150 --> 00:35:43.130 that they are entitled to special treatment. It's how they are going about getting it though. 00:35:44.244 --> 00:35:46.584 They will often struggle with acknowledging that entitlement. 00:35:46.704 --> 00:35:50.204 So hypersensitivity to criticism, they're extremely sensitive to others' opinions 00:35:50.204 --> 00:35:52.704 and feedback. They take them on as personal attacks. 00:35:53.004 --> 00:35:56.864 They have a low self-acceptance and a fragile self-esteem because then they 00:35:56.864 --> 00:35:59.184 have a hard time living up to their own expectations of entitlement, 00:35:59.304 --> 00:36:03.164 which leads them feeling inadequate and not willing to take ownership of even 00:36:03.164 --> 00:36:04.604 maybe they set their sights too high. 00:36:04.984 --> 00:36:08.604 A lot of emotional instability, their mood can quickly change based on perceived 00:36:08.604 --> 00:36:10.624 threats or their sense of specialness. 00:36:10.784 --> 00:36:17.624 It can change within a few seconds if they feel like you disrespect them to 00:36:17.624 --> 00:36:19.224 then now you agree with them. 00:36:19.624 --> 00:36:24.024 And they have significant discomfort and upset when their expectations of the 00:36:24.024 --> 00:36:25.144 special treatment isn't met. 00:36:25.484 --> 00:36:29.204 And then they often have this preoccupation with fantasies of success. 00:36:29.464 --> 00:36:33.644 So because a lot of them, despite their insecurities, they really believe they 00:36:33.644 --> 00:36:36.484 should be in such a better place, but they're not. 00:36:36.684 --> 00:36:41.124 And I'm talking about whether it's financial or location or a career, 00:36:41.264 --> 00:36:44.364 whatever that is, but then they can't, it can't be about them. 00:36:44.424 --> 00:36:48.044 It has to be about you not believing in them, their parents, 00:36:48.084 --> 00:36:51.704 not believing them. I can even, this is where you start to see some of the physical symptoms. 00:36:51.824 --> 00:36:56.084 When I talk about narcissistic medical exits, where it has to be their chronic 00:36:56.084 --> 00:37:00.484 pain has to be there just a phantom heart, heartache, heartburn, 00:37:00.484 --> 00:37:03.944 heart attack, or they're where they can always have a moment where, 00:37:03.944 --> 00:37:05.964 Oh my gosh, my medical thing is kicking in. 00:37:06.424 --> 00:37:10.024 And so those things I think often are there because then I can say, 00:37:10.084 --> 00:37:13.224 had it not been for this, I would be whatever, president of the United States. 00:37:13.724 --> 00:37:16.684 And then also characterized by manipulation and exploitation. 00:37:16.784 --> 00:37:20.264 So they might use other people to maintain their self-image or achieve their goals. 00:37:20.784 --> 00:37:24.884 So let's talk about emotional immaturity because that takes on a whole broad 00:37:24.884 --> 00:37:28.924 range of behaviors and attitudes, not specifically tied to a sense of entitlement or superiority. 00:37:29.164 --> 00:37:32.704 Although the reason I think this is so important is you can see the similarities 00:37:32.704 --> 00:37:36.084 though, because Because it refers to somebody's inability to manage their emotions 00:37:36.084 --> 00:37:40.684 effectively that still appears more like a lack of empathy and then difficulties 00:37:40.684 --> 00:37:42.284 in forming deep, meaningful relationships. 00:37:42.344 --> 00:37:46.564 Because the person that is emotionally immature desperately wants somebody to 00:37:46.564 --> 00:37:48.364 love them, but they didn't get that opportunity. 00:37:49.231 --> 00:37:52.991 Secure attachment or that love as a child. So then when somebody even tries 00:37:52.991 --> 00:37:55.211 to then show them that love, it feels overwhelming. 00:37:55.771 --> 00:37:59.411 So then that emotional immaturity manifests as this inability to cope with stress, 00:37:59.571 --> 00:38:02.311 poor communication skills, and a tendency to avoid responsibility. 00:38:02.591 --> 00:38:03.911 It can have a lot of impulsivity. 00:38:04.251 --> 00:38:08.071 So the key traits here are there is difficulty managing emotions. 00:38:08.411 --> 00:38:11.371 Emotionally immature people often struggle to process and express their feelings 00:38:11.371 --> 00:38:16.311 in a healthy way because they aren't sure if they will be acknowledged or met or if they will be seen. 00:38:16.311 --> 00:38:19.591 But they do have that lack of empathy because they might have trouble understanding 00:38:19.591 --> 00:38:24.471 or relating to the emotions of others because the emotionally immature is so often in their own head. 00:38:24.991 --> 00:38:28.551 They often do have an avoidance of responsibility because there tends to be 00:38:28.551 --> 00:38:32.871 a tendency to shirk responsibilities or commitments because of the fear of doing 00:38:32.871 --> 00:38:35.611 it wrong or getting in trouble or poor communication skills. 00:38:35.771 --> 00:38:38.551 They might find it a challenge to articulate their needs and thoughts and feelings 00:38:38.551 --> 00:38:44.031 because what if you tell them that they're wrong or what if they say it and 00:38:44.031 --> 00:38:45.651 then you validate it and then they're going to have to do it? 00:38:45.651 --> 00:38:50.031 Which leads to a struggle with deep relationships so forming and maintaining 00:38:50.031 --> 00:38:53.671 deep lasting relationships can be really difficult because of the emotional 00:38:53.671 --> 00:38:57.411 and sometimes relational shortcomings so if you look at the two and you take 00:38:57.411 --> 00:39:00.731 a look at the difference both vulnerable narcissists and emotionally mature 00:39:00.731 --> 00:39:04.731 people can impact relationships and their interactions with each other. 00:39:05.791 --> 00:39:09.851 Negatively but the key difference is in the underlying motivation and the self-perception 00:39:09.851 --> 00:39:13.291 the vulnerable narcissists have a concealed but entrenched belief in their own 00:39:13.291 --> 00:39:14.531 specialness and entitlement, 00:39:15.131 --> 00:39:17.971 leading to that manipulation and exploitation in relationships. 00:39:18.271 --> 00:39:22.091 Their emotional turmoil often stems from not receiving the admiration or the 00:39:22.091 --> 00:39:23.991 special treatment that they feel they deserve. 00:39:24.211 --> 00:39:28.731 But then in contrast, emotional immaturity is not necessarily linked to a hidden sense of entitlement. 00:39:28.911 --> 00:39:32.471 It's more marked by a general lack of emotional development, 00:39:32.611 --> 00:39:36.311 which affects how people handle their emotions, how they empathize with others, 00:39:36.411 --> 00:39:37.771 and how they communicate their needs. 00:39:38.011 --> 00:39:41.931 So then emotionally immature people then typically have challenges in personal 00:39:41.931 --> 00:39:44.231 growth and relationships due to those deficiencies. 00:39:44.391 --> 00:39:47.591 So rather than needing a desire for special treatment or admiration, 00:39:47.851 --> 00:39:50.991 they just want a connection with others, but they don't know how to get it. 00:39:51.111 --> 00:39:55.651 And it's scary and they are immature and then they can't take criticism. 00:39:56.151 --> 00:40:01.611 So I think understanding those differences is really key just for whether it's 00:40:01.611 --> 00:40:04.411 coming from a place of acceptance of this is where my partner's at, 00:40:04.491 --> 00:40:06.751 or this is what I'm going through. 00:40:06.831 --> 00:40:10.591 So that helps you address the behaviors, the attitudes that are associated with 00:40:10.591 --> 00:40:13.391 each of those things from vulnerable narcissism to emotional immaturity, 00:40:13.551 --> 00:40:16.111 again, whether in yourself or in somebody that you're with. 00:40:16.731 --> 00:40:20.031 So if you go back to those scenarios that I opened with, and I'll go through 00:40:20.031 --> 00:40:23.351 these quickly, you got the couple discussing plans for the weekend getaway, 00:40:23.431 --> 00:40:25.451 the woman suggests a quiet romantic retreat in the countryside, 00:40:25.711 --> 00:40:27.211 and then the guy has his own ideas. 00:40:27.671 --> 00:40:31.851 So the grandiose narcissist response, now this maybe will make more sense with 00:40:31.851 --> 00:40:36.171 that context, the grandiose narcissist immediately just dismisses her suggestion 00:40:36.171 --> 00:40:38.671 that he wants to go to a luxury beach resort. 00:40:38.811 --> 00:40:41.931 It's not only better, but it's the only thing that he's willing to do because 00:40:41.931 --> 00:40:44.551 he's He's the one that works hard. It's his time too. 00:40:44.831 --> 00:40:49.071 He has certain needs. He has great tastes, according to him, 00:40:49.131 --> 00:40:53.231 because he's going to boast about his taste and then how he knows the best places, 00:40:53.351 --> 00:40:55.991 implying that her preferences are unsophisticated. 00:40:56.571 --> 00:40:59.051 So when she tries to express her disappointment or argue her point, 00:40:59.191 --> 00:41:02.531 then he gets really assertive. He's going to stop that conversation now. 00:41:03.091 --> 00:41:06.971 Grandiose narcissist takes over the conversation, belittles her and her ideas, 00:41:07.111 --> 00:41:08.871 and then frames his decision. 00:41:08.911 --> 00:41:13.891 So these are my needs and my desires. Those are the things that matter and she 00:41:13.891 --> 00:41:16.871 needs to just, she needs to accept it or then they're just not going. 00:41:17.742 --> 00:41:20.142 The impact on that relationship, obviously, his behavior leaves her feeling 00:41:20.142 --> 00:41:22.002 unheard, devalued, power imbalanced. 00:41:22.342 --> 00:41:26.762 Now you get the vulnerable narcissist's response to this scenario when she proposes 00:41:26.762 --> 00:41:29.942 the countryside retreat. Then he reacts quietly, but he's offended. 00:41:30.262 --> 00:41:33.722 He thinks his preferences should have been part of her primary consideration. 00:41:34.022 --> 00:41:35.702 She should have thought of him first. 00:41:36.422 --> 00:41:40.962 Instead of, though, just outright dismissal and just immediate control like 00:41:40.962 --> 00:41:44.142 the grandiose narcissist, he might sulk around, express how her suggestion makes 00:41:44.142 --> 00:41:46.042 him feel unappreciated, misunderstood, 00:41:46.042 --> 00:41:48.742 misunderstood, highlighting his own needs, but super indirect. 00:41:49.562 --> 00:41:53.582 He might allude to past instances where his choices, they actually led to better 00:41:53.582 --> 00:41:54.822 outcomes. I mean, you remember that, right? 00:41:55.442 --> 00:41:58.202 Suggesting that she's making a mistake whenever you don't consider me. 00:41:58.322 --> 00:41:59.942 I mean, but okay, I know you're trying. 00:42:00.682 --> 00:42:05.822 And if she then presses for what she really wants, he gets withdrawn or angry 00:42:05.822 --> 00:42:07.882 or hints that she doesn't value him or the relationship. 00:42:08.422 --> 00:42:12.122 So she starts to feel more guilty or confused. That's often what you see with 00:42:12.122 --> 00:42:15.382 the relationship to the covert or vulnerable narcissist, Because she starts 00:42:15.382 --> 00:42:18.902 to sense that if she even starts to express her own desires again, 00:42:18.942 --> 00:42:22.162 or more of what her needs are, that doesn't work, leads to emotional distress. 00:42:22.442 --> 00:42:26.702 So the relationship suffers, because there's an absolute lack of open communication, 00:42:26.782 --> 00:42:30.142 because her attempts to discuss things leads to more emotional manipulation. 00:42:30.522 --> 00:42:33.962 And the more that he, or the more that she tries to discuss things, 00:42:34.062 --> 00:42:38.402 the worse it gets, because she just, he knows what to do with that information. 00:42:38.842 --> 00:42:42.402 He knows how to turn that back around against her and make her feel crazy. 00:42:42.402 --> 00:42:45.662 Crazy so let's talk about the emotionally immature response now 00:42:45.662 --> 00:42:48.722 so the guy's behavior hearing her 00:42:48.722 --> 00:42:51.582 suggestion he reacts impulsively maybe laughs 00:42:51.582 --> 00:42:56.182 it off dismisses it without much thought because it just didn't really jive 00:42:56.182 --> 00:43:00.042 with his immediate initial expectations or desire so his first response was 00:43:00.042 --> 00:43:04.602 oh wait that's like what what do you romantic getaway i made the hilarious comment 00:43:04.602 --> 00:43:07.902 earlier about the notebook kind of pulled that from a session earlier in that 00:43:07.902 --> 00:43:11.402 day when she tries though to explain why she prefers the countryside, 00:43:11.662 --> 00:43:14.622 then he gets frustrated, annoyed, but he's unable to articulate his feelings 00:43:14.622 --> 00:43:18.962 or consider her perspective in a mature way because he doesn't know what that looks like. 00:43:19.022 --> 00:43:21.642 He knows he may throw a fit. He may take his ball and go home. 00:43:22.202 --> 00:43:25.342 And that's different than the vulnerable narcissist that's trying to manipulate 00:43:25.342 --> 00:43:28.402 and control from a passive aggressive stance or the grandiose narcissist that 00:43:28.402 --> 00:43:30.482 is just saying, this is ridiculous. This is what we're doing. 00:43:31.242 --> 00:43:34.882 So instead of discussing it with her further, he may change the subject about 00:43:34.882 --> 00:43:39.122 vacations in general, ignore her, insist on his preferences in a really childlike 00:43:39.122 --> 00:43:43.682 way, focusing solely on what he wants without regard to compromise or mutual satisfaction. 00:43:44.022 --> 00:43:46.862 And so then eventually when he gets his needs met, he feels great. 00:43:46.942 --> 00:43:49.222 She feels devastated like what just happened. 00:43:49.342 --> 00:43:53.362 And then since he feels great, he wants to go on a bike ride a few minutes later. 00:43:53.742 --> 00:43:56.842 So in that relationship, she feels frustrated. She feels lonely. 00:43:57.062 --> 00:44:01.042 She feels like her attempted adult conversations and decision-making are met with immaturity. 00:44:01.302 --> 00:44:05.082 And that dynamic leads to resentment because she starts to bear the the emotional 00:44:05.082 --> 00:44:10.182 labor of managing both her feelings and his inability to have any type of constructive dialogue. 00:44:11.224 --> 00:44:15.384 So with these scenarios, the guy's behavior impacts the relationship differently. 00:44:15.484 --> 00:44:19.784 And it really reflects on these underlying traits of grandiose narcissism, 00:44:19.784 --> 00:44:21.284 vulnerable narcissism, and emotional immaturity. 00:44:22.024 --> 00:44:25.244 So the grandiose narcissist dominates and devalues, the vulnerable narcissist 00:44:25.244 --> 00:44:29.224 manipulates emotionally, and the emotionally immature person fails to even engage 00:44:29.224 --> 00:44:30.824 in any kind of meaningful or empathetic 00:44:30.824 --> 00:44:34.304 communication because they are throwing a fit, a temper tantrum. 00:44:34.504 --> 00:44:39.624 If you really try to understand the origin story of narcissistic personality 00:44:39.624 --> 00:44:42.724 disorder, you really do have to go back and look at the early life experiences 00:44:42.724 --> 00:44:47.224 because there are certain things that really impact types of upbringing. 00:44:47.624 --> 00:44:52.184 So research suggests that specific conditions in childhood do pave the way for 00:44:52.184 --> 00:44:53.744 the development of these narcissistic traits. 00:44:54.044 --> 00:45:00.084 And so next time in part two, because I realized this thing is getting long, 00:45:00.304 --> 00:45:03.944 we're going to talk about some of the main causes and I'm going to give you 00:45:03.944 --> 00:45:06.264 some detailed examples. I'll just give you a a little sneak preview. 00:45:06.704 --> 00:45:12.284 Things in childhood like overindulgence, things like authoritarian parenting, things like abuse. 00:45:12.624 --> 00:45:15.784 And then we're going to talk more about attachment theory. And then we're going 00:45:15.784 --> 00:45:20.524 to start going into the secure attachment versus the anxious attachment, 00:45:20.824 --> 00:45:22.104 the avoidant attachment. 00:45:22.304 --> 00:45:27.204 And then one that I don't talk enough about that the more that I read, 00:45:27.324 --> 00:45:31.124 it made me really feel like, okay, I need to spend more time with this. 00:45:31.204 --> 00:45:33.444 And it's the disorganized attachment. 00:45:35.164 --> 00:45:39.924 And But that disorganized attachment is marked by it's a blend of avoidant and anxious behaviors. 00:45:40.284 --> 00:45:45.124 So those that have this disorganized attachment, they really want these close relationships. 00:45:45.584 --> 00:45:50.604 But simultaneously, they dread the potential hurt or disappointment and fear rejection. 00:45:50.804 --> 00:45:54.084 So they will often harbor negative views about themselves and others, 00:45:54.204 --> 00:45:57.504 and they feel unworthy. They feel mistrustful. 00:45:57.564 --> 00:46:01.664 And that attachment style is called disorganized because it's relationship patterns. 00:46:01.804 --> 00:46:03.584 It's relational patterns are inconsistent. consistent. 00:46:04.024 --> 00:46:08.064 People fear rejection, which then leads them to shun closeness and push people 00:46:08.064 --> 00:46:11.584 away, but they just yearn for emotional intimacy. 00:46:12.164 --> 00:46:16.484 Please come back for part two. Thanks for joining me here on Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:46:16.504 --> 00:46:17.764 Please continue to send your stories. 00:46:17.884 --> 00:46:22.164 Please reach out, ask questions, and join my women's Facebook group. 00:46:22.284 --> 00:46:24.464 Reach out to me about my men's group. It's just starting up. 00:46:24.604 --> 00:46:27.784 And then we will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:36.852 Music.