Music.
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 108 of The Virtual Couch.
This is not The Virtual Couch. Take two.
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 108 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and as you may guess,
also host of The Virtual Couch podcast.
But we're here today to talk about emotional immaturity.
We're talking about waking up to narcissism, and I'm going to start with what
I always want to just be the proverbial, so a grandiose narcissist,
a vulnerable narcissist, and an emotionally immature person walk into a bar
joke, but I can never even get chat GPT to give me a really hilarious outcome to that joke.
But I want to talk about a couple of scenarios that are very real,
and then we're going to dive into the world of attachment styles today based
off of an incredible article and site called The Attachment Project.
It's at attachmentproject.com, and today Today, we will use the section,
an article on their website called Narcissistic Personality and Attachment,
How Insecure Attachment Relates to Narcissism.
Because I have been asked on occasions, is there a link or do I see a correlation
between the insecure or anxious attachment and emotional immaturity or narcissism?
And absolutely, there's definitely a connection there.
But that doesn't mean that all people that have an anxious or an insecure attachment
are narcissists or emotionally immature. sure, but that is a trait that you see often.
And down the road, we're going to talk a little bit more about ADHD and the
world of narcissism and emotional immaturity, because that impulse control or
that impulsivity and that desire to get out of discomfort or get a quick dopamine
dump, it factors in here as well.
So we'll tackle that in the coming weeks. But today, here are the scenarios,
planning a weekend getaway.
And the context, so we've got a couple, They're discussing plans for a weekend
getaway. It's based on a real life experience.
The husband is the more emotionally immature and the wife plays the role of
the pathologically kind.
A couple is discussing plans for the weekend getaway. The woman suggests a quiet
romantic retreat in the countryside while the guy has his own ideas about what
and where they should go and what they should do.
So the grandiose narcissist's response is he immediately dismisses her suggestion,
asserting that his idea of a luxury beach resort is not only better,
but it's really the only option worth considering.
And he even starts bragging and boasting about his taste, his finer tastes,
and what a joy that must be for her to get this chance to go with him to these
fine places, these resorts.
And how he obviously knows the best places to vacation, implying that her preferences,
they are just, they're adorable, they're quaint, they're unsophisticated.
And when she tries to express herself or argue her point, he gets increasingly
assertive, talks over her, belittles her ideas.
But he frames the whole decision as though it really is only his needs and desires matter.
And he is expecting her to acquiesce and then just love and admire her choice.
Choice and nothing else will do.
And I think that's one of the big differences in grandiose narcissism is that
nothing else is even on the table because he knows, he knows with every fiber
of his being that he is right about this.
And he can just recite all the data to back up why he's right.
So that impact that's going to have on the relationship, as you can guess,
it leaves her feeling unheard. She feels unseen.
She feels devalued. And it creates this power imbalance balance where her opinions
seem pretty insignificant.
As a matter of fact, in this based on a real life story, she had mentioned in
the session that she didn't even know why she even tried to express her opinion.
And that dynamic starts to put an incredible amount of strain on the relationship
because it's so clear that her desires, her feelings, that they come second to his ego.
They probably come third, second to his golf clubs, and then there's his ego after.
So now if we look at the world of vulnerable narcissism, what that would look
like when she proposes this countryside retreat, then he acts moody.
He reacts quietly, but inwardly he's offended because he feels like he should
have been asked. His preferences should have been her primary consideration
instead of just, in this world, an outright dismissal.
Because if we're really looking at this spectrum of narcissism or extreme emotional
immaturity, then if he wasn't asked, then it means that she thinks,
obviously, that what he wants would be wrong without even giving him a chance.
So, what's he going to do? He's going to shut down. He's going to sulk.
He might start to express how her suggestion makes him feel a little bit unappreciated
or maybe even misunderstood. understood.
So he's highlighting what he thinks he needs, but it's super indirect.
It's passive aggressive.
And then he might even make reference to there's been past instances as well,
where he does want to acknowledge that his choice, she even said it herself
that she liked what they did better.
But I mean, it's fine, but it's this implied, you're probably making a mistake
if you really haven't considered what I want to do, because I am usually right.
Now, if she starts to the press, for her opinion, then he even becomes more withdrawn.
And then he starts hinting that, you know what, she doesn't even really value
him, or she doesn't really value the relationship.
So now the impact on the relationship here, maybe not even if the feeling is
shut down, with the grandiose narcissist, she may feel now guilty or absolutely
confused, because she's all of a sudden trying to put together that, okay.
If she expresses her desires, then that typically leads to a bunch of emotional
chaos, emotional distress.
And then the relationship then suffers because there's this lack of open communication.
But then she feels like then her attempts to even talk about preferences starts
to lead to her being emotionally manipulated.
But the more she tries to express herself, the more it just goes south.
The more that she tries to engage, the more he almost seems to know what her
next move is. And he takes that one-up position.
Now let's go to the emotionally immature person. So here, the guy's behavior
when he hears her suggestion, he acts pretty impulsively.
His first response is even laughing. Really? You want to do a romantic getaway?
When's the last time that we had a romantic getaway?
I mean, I don't even, what are we going to watch The Notebook?
What are we going to do? This impulsive thought just comes out and she feels incredibly dismissed.
But it comes out without much thought from him because it doesn't really align
with his initial expectations or what he wants to do.
So then when she even tries to explain why that she prefers to go to the countryside,
then he starts to get maybe more frustrated or more annoyed.
And because but here's the problem.
He's unable to articulate his feelings or consider her perspective in a mature
way because now he was impulsive.
Now he's hearing her. Now he feels like, I guess I'm in trouble. I did it wrong.
So instead of discussing it further, then he might just say,
no, whatever, whatever you want to do, it's fine.
Maybe even more play that that aggressive victim mode. And then that might lead to ignoring her.
And so then we don't make a decision. So then we're kicking the can down the
road because subconsciously, then he likes to work off of impulse.
And then so if we all of a sudden have to quickly make a decision,
well, now we're on his turf.
Or if he is going to insist on his preference, he's going to do it maybe in
more of a little kid, a childlike manner.
Just, well, no, I don't want to, you know, I'm taking my ball and going home,
focusing solely on what he wants without regard to compromise or even wondering what she wants.
So the impact of the emotionally immature in the relationship,
she's frustrated and she probably feels lonely in the relationship because her
attempts at having an adult mature conversation and then decision making are
met with this emotional immaturity.
And that dynamic starts to lead to resentment because she then bears all the
emotional labor of managing both her feelings. things.
And this is where you often hear in this scenario where she feels like,
okay, I've just got another kid because she has to now also manage his inability
to engage in a constructive dialogue.
And the way he gets out of that discomfort is to throw a temper tantrum in which then he feels better.
She's left with all the emotional baggage to clean up. And then five minutes
later, he's ready to go ride bikes.
Let's do that. We're ready. I'm good. I'm good now, but we never really made
a decision. I think it's important to look at all of these scenarios.
In each version of the scenario, the guy's behavior impacts the relationship
a little bit differently.
And that starts to reflect the underlying traits of the grandiose narcissist
or the vulnerable narcissist and the person who struggles with emotional immaturity.
So that grandiose narcissist, they dominate and they devalue.
That vulnerable narcissist more or less manipulates emotionally.
And then the emotionally immature person just pretty much which fails to engage
in any kind of meaningful or empathetic communication.
So I want to read Introduction to Narcissism, and this is from theattachmentproject.com.
But they say, Introduction to Narcissism, what is a narcissistic personality?
They say, Narcissism refers to a personality trait that's characterized by a
strong sense of entitlement for admiration and attention.
It lies on a continuum from healthy levels, such as having one or two traits,
to pathological levels of narcissism, known as narcissistic personality disorder.
And I'm going to talk more about what they they talk about with the healthy
version, which thanks to the work of Eleanor Greenberg, I've taken some of her
information and talking about the concepts of healthy ego.
But somebody can have one or more
narcissistic traits without having a narcissistic personality disorder.
For example, they might be very attention-seeking, they might have bad listening
skills, but that doesn't necessarily make them narcissists.
But then they go on to say that, however, if we move along to the more severe
end of the spectrum, narcissism swiftly becomes destructive and pathological,
And then it morphs into, and I like what they say, into an obsession with promoting
self-perceived superiority.
Hypervigilance, and then detecting challenges to authority, aggressively examining
potential competitors.
And the reason I like that word obsession is because that obsession is something
that then they just tend to crave, and that is what they are consumed by.
And I still will go big on the concept of confabulation or a confabulated memory
where the more that this is what they do, then that is the narrative that they
are creating, that that is the way that everyone works.
That's the way that you go through life is continually evaluating.
How do I put myself in a one-up position? How do I align myself with someone
that is of high status? How do I put myself above somebody that's low status?
And when that is what someone is thinking about.
Over and over, it slowly becomes part of their implicit memory or what it feels
like to be them, because that is part of their own slow residue of lived experience.
So I think that it does become this obsession until it just becomes they are.
It just is. In the article where they say it's like a scale, let me address that.
Having a healthy ego, what that means is feeling good about yourself,
but it's because of the real things that you've achieved.
It's like giving yourself a pat on the back or more, actually,
for the hard work that you've done and then the challenges that you faced head on.
And this kind of self-confidence doesn't get knocked down by small problems
or criticisms because it's built on your actual successes and efforts.
A couple of examples might be, let's say that you've spent weeks preparing for
a big presentation at work and you do a really good job because you've worked
hard and you know what you're talking about and you do get that praise from
your boss and you do get that validation.
Feeling proud or confident in your abilities afterward, that's a sign of a healthy ego.
That's a sign of confidence because you recognize your effort and your success
and then that boosts your self-esteem and it's not your job to play small so
that others around you won't feel bad.
Or let's say that you've been playing golf a ton and then you start to really
play well, you can celebrate your improvement.
You can acknowledge your hard work because that's another example of a healthy ego.
It's about knowing that you've grown and you've achieved something because of
your dedication and your practice.
Because in both of these cases, your positive self-view is based on real accomplishments
and effort, not just a desire, which is the difference for attention or approval from others.
And then that makes your self-confidence and strong and resilient because life
is going to continue to have ups and downs.
But if you are learning who you are, then you're going to be able to navigate those storms,
those ups and downs from a place of confidence because everything then that
you are learning becomes something that you can internalize,
that it can become part of who you are, or everything you interact with can
be something that you recognize that isn't something I care much for,
or I don't know enough about it.
Or here are a couple of scenarios that are plucked right out of my office recently.
This one I see often. So it's a stay-at-home mom questioning her worth or value
because of her husband's emotional immaturity.
So she is juggling schedules and kids and homework, and more importantly,
their emotions and their fears and their interactions with their friends.
It's as if the moms themselves become therapists to a whole lot of little personality disorders.
Also, they are taxi drivers, or I guess in this day and age, Uber drivers.
But they're also So playing the role of motivational speaker and cook and tutor
and personal assistant.
And I could go on and then to have her husband come home and first off say he's
just so exhausted. He doesn't really want to hear it right now.
Then he acts put out when he sees that his wife's pretty frazzled.
She's had a must have had a day.
And then he's telling her, you just need to be more positive.
I wouldn't let him get to you. You know how lucky you've got it to be able to
spend time with him and because of the work that I do.
He goes off and he talks to the kids for a little bit, or maybe more or less
talks at them for a little bit, checks off that box.
There we go. I'm a great dad. Now, granted, they didn't seem as impressed as
they should have about my heroic high school sports story of triumph over low odds.
So let me work that in the background. Let me confabulate that a little bit
more. So next time I cart that thing out, I sound even better.
And the wife is the one spending that time with the kids. is how maybe the kids
open up to her and she watches and she watches the kid be so excited to talk
to dad, really wants dad's attention.
And instead he seems deflated when the dad again talks at him.
So she pulls dad aside and says, Hey, why don't you maybe ask him more about
how basketball tryouts went or ask him about his friend drama and what happens
with the emotionally immature guy.
Then he says, Oh, I guess I just do everything wrong. And you're the better
parent. So you're telling me I'm doing it wrong?
Sorry for being at work all day. I wish I could just call her with her daughter
and listen to podcasts in the car while I just luxuriously drive kids around
in the huge car, I might add, that I bought you.
So she shuts down. And even worse, she questions her own worth as a mom. mom.
Because if you can't tell already, this mom, other moms,
so many of the stay-at-home moms, I think, I mean, all of them need to accept
and develop that healthy ego or know that they do know more about what's going
on in their kids' lives because they are putting in the time.
It's based off a real life experience.
And I wish in those scenarios, her husband would be grateful and start with praise and admiration.
Tell me more about your day. Not, so what did you do today? day,
maybe with a snarky tone.
Or if she dares open up to him, she's met with, oh, so you've had a busy day?
Oh man, I feel so sorry for you.
Or let's flip the script a little bit where the wife is the more emotionally immature.
We've got a guy who's working and slaying the dragon and taking care of the
kids and trying to be everything and everywhere at one time because his wife
just really doesn't want to make her own decisions.
And this is something that's been prevalent in the relationship.
Let's just say, hypothetically, she needs a car, a new car. And he says,
cool, whatever one you want.
And she says, but I don't know which one. You need to help me understand.
You need to help me decide which one to get, says the wife. life.
And he says, no, no, no, honey, you're you pick. You're the one that's driving
it. You're with the kids.
I'm her. I don't want to get something. And then here you go.
You're not going to like it. And he says, I'm honestly, I'm good.
I know that if I don't, because I'm literally saying you pick,
I want you to whatever works for you.
That if then I say that I don't like it, that's a me problem.
And I'm not going to say that because I'm literally telling you,
it is whatever you would like.
Healthy ego, because he's realized through his own personal therapy that he
has typically been somebody that could have been a little bit more emotionally
mature, passive aggressive, that nice guy syndrome,
the covert contracts where he was showing up a little bit more pathologically,
him pathologically kind, trying to just, if I just keep the peace,
everybody's happy, then she'll be happy and then she'll appreciate me.
That's not what's happening here.
Because what she needs is she needs
to pull him into the, I need you to to ultimately make this decision.
So then if the car is great, well, it's great. You don't get any credit though.
As a matter of fact, I'll probably eventually take credit for that.
Or then let's be really clear.
If we have a problem with the car or it's bad, then I get to say,
Hey, well, you said you thought it was good. So what was I supposed to do?
So in those scenarios, he's set up for failure in both of those scenarios.
And the one, the stay at home mom and this guy need to develop that healthy
ego, that sense of self based on real life experience.
And the stay at home mom Example, she's in the trenches. She's self-confronting.
She's putting in the work. Her husband is too busy.
And in the story where the husband was more emotionally mature.
Then I was going to say, unfortunately, but no. Fortunately,
now he does see his wife's immaturity, and then he can't unsee it.
But he also knows that he can't convince her or control or manipulate her into
seeing her own struggles.
So he's opting out of the craziness. She is subconsciously determined to bring the crazy back.
New Justin Timberlake song. Anybody? I'm bringing crazy back.
Anyway, what I want to do now is I want to share a little bit about my own journey.
And it is deeply personal, but it's led me to where I am now.
And this isn't what the episode is really about. We're going back into those attachment styles.
But I think this part, this is why I wanted to break out and talk more about
the healthy ego and talk about pathological defensive narcissism,
because I think that we want to start painting a picture of what it can look like to self-confront,
even coming from a place of insecure attachment or impulsive or emotionally immature,
because I have been been getting more and more emails of people that are asking
for the success stories.
And I don't want to get on and dramatically say, well, I wish I could find them,
but I don't want the success stories that are the ones about the people that
then end up having to leave all the time.
Because when I got into this, this career, I really wanted to help and save
all the marriages again.
Now I realized that was a me thing that I would feel better about myself,
but we're providing the the tools, and then it really is up to the clients,
both of them to put in the work, to self-confront, to try to grow.
And at some point, unfortunately, a lot of the times,
it's one person putting in the work and then the other person,
if they are immature, feeling then continually challenged and questioned,
they are just showing more of the same.
So they might have a little bit of change, a little bit of, okay,
that makes sense, but and not willing to sit with that discomfort and grow and
self-confront and recognize they don't know everything.
They don't know what they don't know. It's okay to be open and vulnerable and
but to show up and do that consistently from an emotionally consistent place.
So I do want to start giving more of those examples of what the real waking
up process can look like.
And I think that the healthy ego piece is such a key component,
although it has often been weaponized, which is part of that challenge of sharing
some of the success stories to the truly emotionally immature,
or even the person with severe narcissistic traits, tendencies,
or right up to personality disorder,
because then they are listening and they are taking notes and they're coming away from this.
I mentioned this on a previous episode of saying, okay, am I a narcissist?
Okay, then Tony says I'm not.
Instead of saying, no, if I'm the one that's It's been asking, wait, am I?
Because I'm continually trying to show up and be aware and get the relationship
to move in a better direction and change.
And I'm continually finding myself feeling like what's wrong with me.
Then that's the person that's continually saying, is it me?
Am I the narcissist? Not the person who has been fine and tells the other person
to get over it for a long period of time until they finally listen to a podcast
and say, okay, no, I'm not. Because I just asked myself that.
So again, if somebody is listening to this next part about healthy ego versus
pathological defensive narcissism, and then they say, okay, I now understand
what healthy ego is. I have that. I don't have the other thing.
So now every chance I get, I'm going to parade this thing out and I'm I'm going
to hit somebody over the head with my healthy ego. Not the point.
So there is an author named Eleanor Greenberg who writes about narcissism a lot.
And she shared the following, which it's funny because it almost seems like
a bit of an odd read at first because she talks about the healthy narcissism
versus pathological defensive narcissism.
So I will continually say that what I've done is openly changed the word narcissism
in her definition to healthy ego, because I think that really makes more sense
for the work that I personally do.
So she says normal versus pathological narcissism that unfortunately in the English language,
the word narcissism has come to mean two entirely different things,
depending on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis as an NPD,
narcissistic personality disorder, or informally as a synonym for positive self-regard.
I definitely think we don't talk about it in that regard, if at all,
with any positivity to it.
And I'm not saying we need to. We need to get a new PR firm and a new hype man
for the word narcissism. No, but I just think it's interesting to see where
it used to be and what it is evolved to.
So then I'm often asked, then, isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and normal?
And so Eleanor says she would like to clarify that before she goes on.
So then her definition, where then I'm going to replace narcissism with ego, normal, healthy ego.
This is a realistic sense of positive self-regard based on the person's accomplishments.
It is relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their self-image,
the success that came from their actual hard work to overcome real-life obstacles.
And because it's based on real achievements, normal, healthy ego is relatively
impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life.
Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in
our real self-interest and that are associated with our genuine self-respect.
And one can think of it as something that is inside of us. So I think you can
see the almost fine line that it walks on that is between arrogance versus confidence and healthy ego.
And then, so this is why I talk so much about the healthy ego,
but it's part of the, I didn't even know what I didn't know.
But the more that you study about it, the more you learn about yourself,
the more you test the things that you're studying, you internalize the things that you're learning.
And then you realize that these are things that resonate with me and that now I understand.
It helps me understand how I used to act or how I might even act now,
but it's coming from a place of a healthier ego because I'm the only one that
truly knows and understands what I didn't know before.
Now contrast that with pathological defensive narcissism. That's a defense against
feelings of inferiority.
And so I think it's so important in what we're talking about today the person dons
a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world
that they are special but inside they
feel so insecure about their own actual self-worth so
that this facade of superiority is so thin that it is like a helium balloon
and a tiny little pin prickle deflated and this makes the person hypersensitive
to minor slights and setbacks that somebody with healthy narcissism wouldn't
even notice so somebody with this pathological defensive narcissism,
they are very easily wounded.
They take any form of disagreement as serious criticism, and they're very likely
to lash out and devalue anybody who thinks that they disagree with them.
And so they're constantly on guard trying to protect their status,
to protect their ego. And that's thought of more of a protective armor that's on the outside.
So that's the pathological defense of narcissism. I started my career in software
marketing and sales right out of college.
Computers weren't even really my passion. They weren't my thing,
but it was a good opportunity. But there it was, spending a decade in an industry
that really didn't light me up inside.
And I didn't know what I didn't know. And that decade, there were wonderful times, and it was tough.
But it taught me a lot about resilience and then an adaptability.
And those are qualities that I didn't realize were happening in the background
that they would go on to help me shape a pretty solid sense of self because
it took a long time. So that's where the things really get interesting to me.
In my early 30s, I take a leap and I can go on and on about that.
I go back to grad school to study marriage and family therapy and it was like
somebody turned on the light.
Suddenly, I felt this whole sense of belonging, this sense of purpose,
this connection and it was so real.
It was so tangible. It was so immediate and it was It was just to me undeniable,
but it was clear to me that I'd found my calling.
This, I didn't know at the time, was where I would start to understand healthy
ego because I'm learning something that matters to me, that I can put into practice,
that I'm curious about, and that just becomes a part of me.
So, it's something that just is so aligned with me that it really helped me
become who I am and it just spoke to me at my core.
And I really think finding that alignment or that purpose or that passion is
such a key to building a healthy ego.
And if you don't feel like you know what that is, that doesn't mean you must find it.
You must just start now on your journey. Be aware and know that point A is going
to lead to B and B to C and C to D, that it's not just I now need to know my
passion and just live that only and go into this echo chamber.
No, it's about starting to take a look at that. What would that look like? What would that mean?
And it was a pretty lengthy journey. So now we fast forward over 20 years from the start of it.
And here I am now drawing immense satisfaction, pride for my work in therapy,
counseling, mental health.
And that fulfillment isn't just a feeling, it's built on real,
here we go, tangible success and on positive impact that I've hopefully been
able to have on others, but primarily what I've been able to do for myself. self.
And so when you're operating from that place of healthy ego,
now it's okay. You learn to welcome criticism because it's not a threat.
I don't have to defend my fragile ego, but to offer me a chance to grow.
It's an absolute opportunity to then take in the feedback. And I get to sit
with that from a place of confidence saying, Oh, I absolutely know what I know,
but I also know that means there are things that I don't know that I don't know.
So I want the data so that then I get to synthesize that data.
I get to see if that does does align with the parts that I want to make better in me.
And so then that becomes proof of more secure self-esteem and then a testament
to personally my belief in feedback as a tool for personal development.
But it doesn't mean that I have to now change my identity because somebody else
feels uncomfortable or doesn't like the thing I'm doing.
And then my passion for this work has been woven itself into the very fabric of my own identity.
And it becomes not just what I do, but it's a fundamental part of who I am,
how I see the world in this deep connection with my work.
Then it, in a sense, and I wanted to just say the word shield came to mind,
but I don't mean it in a negative way, but it shield me from criticism and grounds
my self-worth as something far more meaningful than just external validation,
which is what the emotional immature parts of us just crave so much,
that external validation.
So personally, this journey becomes this testament to me of starting down the
path of pursuing your genuine interest.
And if you are in a healthy relationship, your spouse supports you.
They can express, yeah, it might be more difficult. You might have to have some
conversations around what the changing dynamic in the home can look like,
but it is starting to pursue those self-interests that help you face life's
challenges more head on.
And it's because you're finding more satisfaction in making a difference.
And it is for me been transformative marked by now the, the relentless pursuit,
I think of just growth and fulfillment.
But I go back to this time in the computer industry when I was essentially wearing
a mask to hide my insecurities.
I mean, if you kind of just picture that you're feeling, at least I felt unsure
of myself, but overcompensating by acting like I know more than I do.
And I was trying so hard to make everybody believe I was special because I was
terrified of being seen as anything less.
But in the time I wasn't aware of that.
So the act I was doing was fragile, like the balloon that I talked about earlier,
the helium balloon, because it really could pop at any moment,
every slight disagreement.
And when you really are feeling emotionally insecure and immature,
then you're overreading any kind of slight or any facial expression or sigh
that they do feel like these personal attacks that then have you.
And sometimes people don't necessarily lash out to maintain or defend their fragile ego.
They could withdraw, or they could then go into people-pleasing mode,
or they can reach out to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
So when I reflect on that stint in the computer industry, I now see that I was
in a defensive mode, trying to cover up my lack of passion and my sense of belonging
with this just veneer of confidence.
But to those who really knew their stuff in the computer industry,
I can't even imagine how silly I must have sounded. Now, to them,
my act was as clear as a bell.
They saw right through me, I would imagine, which in hindsight was probably a lesson in itself.
This phase of my life, I look back, was a clear contrast between hiding behind
a mask of perceived competence and what I didn't even know I didn't know.
Growing into eventually a genuinely self-assured individual,
but who is willing to take on criticism and feedback. back.
And it highlights that difference between pretending to be somebody that I'm
not, but not even knowing, but then finding true value and purpose in what I do.
So that transitioning from the computer industry to this career in therapy wasn't
just a career change, but it was a profound shift towards authenticity,
you know, about self-acceptance.
So that's a bit of that part of my story.
It's about getting to that other side, not just intact, but stronger,
more confident, and then becoming genuinely happy with the path that you've chosen.
And so if you're in these relationships where you are burning so many emotional
calories just trying to survive, stay alive, you feel stuck,
and you don't know who you are, and you don't have a sense of purpose or self,
then, well, you're here right now.
If you're listening to these very words, that means that you're working on it.
And I think it's important also to note that this may be the beginning of your
journey. You might still be on the very start of it.
You might be in that messy middle section, but you're on that path,
on that journey, and know that it can shift and it can change.
And you can start noticing things you like and then start to do more of those
things and realize I actually maybe don't like those things. And that's okay.
You're not doing it wrong. You're doing it the way you do it because it's how
you're doing it. And it turns out you're you.
So that's starting to learn to trust that gut, lean into the things in your
own experiences of what you like and maybe what you don't like and what you
want to do and what you don't want to do and just continuing to move forward
and act and do and give yourself grace.
And anyway, not having to burn as many emotional calories, trying to figure
out what is wrong with me, the situation, the relationship, and just learning how to be and do.
So back to the article. So the experts really in this scenario talk about two
main types of narcissism.
They're really going down and breaking down the types of vulnerable and grandiose.
So the vulnerable narcissist, they do appear to be more insecure.
They appear to be more or less outgoing, while the grandiose narcissist are
the opposite. They're bold.
They crave attention. They act as though they are better than everybody else.
But both types, though, they talk about share a belief in their own specialness, their own superiority.
Just they get their way in a different fashion, leading them,
though, to behave in ways that are ultimately exploitive, manipulative.
So let's talk about the grandiose narcissist, because that's the type that we hear about more often.
And that's the part that features more of the traits of entitlement,
the need for admiration, sometimes with aggression, desire for dominance.
A lot of the people that come into my office say, yeah, he doesn't or she doesn't
really fit the pattern of the grandiose narcissist.
That's why I talk so much about emotional immaturity because it's more of either
the vulnerable narcissist you often see or the fact that we're all emotionally immature.
Because the grandiose narcissists are known to deny their flaws,
take credit for successes while blaming others for failure.
And those concepts can move in and out between grandiose, vulnerable,
and emotional immaturity.
They will still react with anger when their expectations are not met,
and they also tend to devalue those who question their authority.
So in relationships, then, that narcissism, that significantly can impact it.
And it's because the narcissist then will engage in manipulative behaviors like
gaslighting. They can be verbally and emotionally abusive.
Their approach to love is more about playing a game and maintaining control
rather than seeking genuine intimacy.
And I would say that it's because they truly don't know what they don't know.
They're not even aware of it. it. And then if you're trying to talk to them,
talk them into it, try to get them to be more empathetic or convince them of
genuine intimacy, you're playing into the, well, if you think that you have
a different opinion than me, then you're wrong.
And now I know what to do with it. And I'm going to defend my fragile ego.
So as a result, that's why this human magnet syndrome starts because they tend
to prefer partners who will admire and focus the attention on them rather than
forming a true loving connection because they don't really,
they're so afraid of their core Or if somebody really sees them,
that then they will not love them.
Now, the vulnerable narcissist is sometimes also known as covert narcissist.
They don't often show off their feelings of being better than others or deserving
more, but they are there.
They might seem more shy or kind, but deep down, they do believe that they are
still entitled to special treatment, much like their more outspoken or grandiose counterparts.
But they're not going to admit that on the outside. And then,
so then unlike those who openly demand recognition and respect,
the vulnerable or covert narcissist, they often react negatively when they feel
overlooked or underrated.
That's the way that they exert the control to get the person back into the relationship.
So they might feel ashamed or sad or quietly angry, but then those are the tools
to get to the validation or to get the attention put back on them.
So some of those signs of being a vulnerable narcissist are very extremely sensitive
to what others say or think about them, not feeling good enough or often wrestling
with the high standards that they will set for themselves, but then they don't
want to take ownership of the fact that they are the ones that set the standards
that they were unrealistic.
So now they still need to blame somebody else or they often feel upset or distressed
when they don't get the special treatment that they expect.
Which then leaves them having essentially a very shaky sense of self-worth.
So then you can see those mood swings, emotional ups and downs,
especially when they feel threatened or what they feel aren't given their due
respect, which leads sometimes to daydreaming about achieving great things or being admired.
And then I think that part of the confabulation machine of their own brain is
that daydreaming about achieving the great things.
Then if they're actually not achieving those great things, then they need to
create a narrative of the things that they did achieve that we've got great
examples of things that just really never happened.
A lot of the examples I've received recently have been from one of the episodes
I did where people that are writing in about their finding out that their parent
didn't play a college sport that they said,
or finding out that they didn't really save a friend in NAMM,
or I mean, pretty, pretty grandiose examples,
but or using others to get what they want or to maintain their sense of superiority,
even in close relationships.
And so then I do want to take a little bit of time to differentiate between
vulnerable narcissism and emotional immaturity.
And that's what led to the stories that I started today's podcast with.
So when you look at vulnerable narcissism as maybe our touchstone or our jumping
off point, that it is that deep seated sense of entitlement,
superiority, not typically displayed openly. openly.
And what we were just saying there that individuals with this trait,
they feel special, they believe they deserve more than others,
even if they don't show it.
And then despite that outward appearance, they may even appear to be shy or
very empathetic, but they share that deep core belief, the grandiose narcissist,
that they are entitled to special treatment. It's how they are going about getting it though.
They will often struggle with acknowledging that entitlement.
So hypersensitivity to criticism, they're extremely sensitive to others' opinions
and feedback. They take them on as personal attacks.
They have a low self-acceptance and a fragile self-esteem because then they
have a hard time living up to their own expectations of entitlement,
which leads them feeling inadequate and not willing to take ownership of even
maybe they set their sights too high.
A lot of emotional instability, their mood can quickly change based on perceived
threats or their sense of specialness.
It can change within a few seconds if they feel like you disrespect them to
then now you agree with them.
And they have significant discomfort and upset when their expectations of the
special treatment isn't met.
And then they often have this preoccupation with fantasies of success.
So because a lot of them, despite their insecurities, they really believe they
should be in such a better place, but they're not.
And I'm talking about whether it's financial or location or a career,
whatever that is, but then they can't, it can't be about them.
It has to be about you not believing in them, their parents,
not believing them. I can even, this is where you start to see some of the physical symptoms.
When I talk about narcissistic medical exits, where it has to be their chronic
pain has to be there just a phantom heart, heartache, heartburn,
heart attack, or they're where they can always have a moment where,
Oh my gosh, my medical thing is kicking in.
And so those things I think often are there because then I can say,
had it not been for this, I would be whatever, president of the United States.
And then also characterized by manipulation and exploitation.
So they might use other people to maintain their self-image or achieve their goals.
So let's talk about emotional immaturity because that takes on a whole broad
range of behaviors and attitudes, not specifically tied to a sense of entitlement or superiority.
Although the reason I think this is so important is you can see the similarities
though, because Because it refers to somebody's inability to manage their emotions
effectively that still appears more like a lack of empathy and then difficulties
in forming deep, meaningful relationships.
Because the person that is emotionally immature desperately wants somebody to
love them, but they didn't get that opportunity.
Secure attachment or that love as a child. So then when somebody even tries
to then show them that love, it feels overwhelming.
So then that emotional immaturity manifests as this inability to cope with stress,
poor communication skills, and a tendency to avoid responsibility.
It can have a lot of impulsivity.
So the key traits here are there is difficulty managing emotions.
Emotionally immature people often struggle to process and express their feelings
in a healthy way because they aren't sure if they will be acknowledged or met or if they will be seen.
But they do have that lack of empathy because they might have trouble understanding
or relating to the emotions of others because the emotionally immature is so often in their own head.
They often do have an avoidance of responsibility because there tends to be
a tendency to shirk responsibilities or commitments because of the fear of doing
it wrong or getting in trouble or poor communication skills.
They might find it a challenge to articulate their needs and thoughts and feelings
because what if you tell them that they're wrong or what if they say it and
then you validate it and then they're going to have to do it?
Which leads to a struggle with deep relationships so forming and maintaining
deep lasting relationships can be really difficult because of the emotional
and sometimes relational shortcomings so if you look at the two and you take
a look at the difference both vulnerable narcissists and emotionally mature
people can impact relationships and their interactions with each other.
Negatively but the key difference is in the underlying motivation and the self-perception
the vulnerable narcissists have a concealed but entrenched belief in their own
specialness and entitlement,
leading to that manipulation and exploitation in relationships.
Their emotional turmoil often stems from not receiving the admiration or the
special treatment that they feel they deserve.
But then in contrast, emotional immaturity is not necessarily linked to a hidden sense of entitlement.
It's more marked by a general lack of emotional development,
which affects how people handle their emotions, how they empathize with others,
and how they communicate their needs.
So then emotionally immature people then typically have challenges in personal
growth and relationships due to those deficiencies.
So rather than needing a desire for special treatment or admiration,
they just want a connection with others, but they don't know how to get it.
And it's scary and they are immature and then they can't take criticism.
So I think understanding those differences is really key just for whether it's
coming from a place of acceptance of this is where my partner's at,
or this is what I'm going through.
So that helps you address the behaviors, the attitudes that are associated with
each of those things from vulnerable narcissism to emotional immaturity,
again, whether in yourself or in somebody that you're with.
So if you go back to those scenarios that I opened with, and I'll go through
these quickly, you got the couple discussing plans for the weekend getaway,
the woman suggests a quiet romantic retreat in the countryside,
and then the guy has his own ideas.
So the grandiose narcissist response, now this maybe will make more sense with
that context, the grandiose narcissist immediately just dismisses her suggestion
that he wants to go to a luxury beach resort.
It's not only better, but it's the only thing that he's willing to do because
he's He's the one that works hard. It's his time too.
He has certain needs. He has great tastes, according to him,
because he's going to boast about his taste and then how he knows the best places,
implying that her preferences are unsophisticated.
So when she tries to express her disappointment or argue her point,
then he gets really assertive. He's going to stop that conversation now.
Grandiose narcissist takes over the conversation, belittles her and her ideas,
and then frames his decision.
So these are my needs and my desires. Those are the things that matter and she
needs to just, she needs to accept it or then they're just not going.
The impact on that relationship, obviously, his behavior leaves her feeling
unheard, devalued, power imbalanced.
Now you get the vulnerable narcissist's response to this scenario when she proposes
the countryside retreat. Then he reacts quietly, but he's offended.
He thinks his preferences should have been part of her primary consideration.
She should have thought of him first.
Instead of, though, just outright dismissal and just immediate control like
the grandiose narcissist, he might sulk around, express how her suggestion makes
him feel unappreciated, misunderstood,
misunderstood, highlighting his own needs, but super indirect.
He might allude to past instances where his choices, they actually led to better
outcomes. I mean, you remember that, right?
Suggesting that she's making a mistake whenever you don't consider me.
I mean, but okay, I know you're trying.
And if she then presses for what she really wants, he gets withdrawn or angry
or hints that she doesn't value him or the relationship.
So she starts to feel more guilty or confused. That's often what you see with
the relationship to the covert or vulnerable narcissist, Because she starts
to sense that if she even starts to express her own desires again,
or more of what her needs are, that doesn't work, leads to emotional distress.
So the relationship suffers, because there's an absolute lack of open communication,
because her attempts to discuss things leads to more emotional manipulation.
And the more that he, or the more that she tries to discuss things,
the worse it gets, because she just, he knows what to do with that information.
He knows how to turn that back around against her and make her feel crazy.
Crazy so let's talk about the emotionally immature response now
so the guy's behavior hearing her
suggestion he reacts impulsively maybe laughs
it off dismisses it without much thought because it just didn't really jive
with his immediate initial expectations or desire so his first response was
oh wait that's like what what do you romantic getaway i made the hilarious comment
earlier about the notebook kind of pulled that from a session earlier in that
day when she tries though to explain why she prefers the countryside,
then he gets frustrated, annoyed, but he's unable to articulate his feelings
or consider her perspective in a mature way because he doesn't know what that looks like.
He knows he may throw a fit. He may take his ball and go home.
And that's different than the vulnerable narcissist that's trying to manipulate
and control from a passive aggressive stance or the grandiose narcissist that
is just saying, this is ridiculous. This is what we're doing.
So instead of discussing it with her further, he may change the subject about
vacations in general, ignore her, insist on his preferences in a really childlike
way, focusing solely on what he wants without regard to compromise or mutual satisfaction.
And so then eventually when he gets his needs met, he feels great.
She feels devastated like what just happened.
And then since he feels great, he wants to go on a bike ride a few minutes later.
So in that relationship, she feels frustrated. She feels lonely.
She feels like her attempted adult conversations and decision-making are met with immaturity.
And that dynamic leads to resentment because she starts to bear the the emotional
labor of managing both her feelings and his inability to have any type of constructive dialogue.
So with these scenarios, the guy's behavior impacts the relationship differently.
And it really reflects on these underlying traits of grandiose narcissism,
vulnerable narcissism, and emotional immaturity.
So the grandiose narcissist dominates and devalues, the vulnerable narcissist
manipulates emotionally, and the emotionally immature person fails to even engage
in any kind of meaningful or empathetic
communication because they are throwing a fit, a temper tantrum.
If you really try to understand the origin story of narcissistic personality
disorder, you really do have to go back and look at the early life experiences
because there are certain things that really impact types of upbringing.
So research suggests that specific conditions in childhood do pave the way for
the development of these narcissistic traits.
And so next time in part two, because I realized this thing is getting long,
we're going to talk about some of the main causes and I'm going to give you
some detailed examples. I'll just give you a a little sneak preview.
Things in childhood like overindulgence, things like authoritarian parenting, things like abuse.
And then we're going to talk more about attachment theory. And then we're going
to start going into the secure attachment versus the anxious attachment,
the avoidant attachment.
And then one that I don't talk enough about that the more that I read,
it made me really feel like, okay, I need to spend more time with this.
And it's the disorganized attachment.
And But that disorganized attachment is marked by it's a blend of avoidant and anxious behaviors.
So those that have this disorganized attachment, they really want these close relationships.
But simultaneously, they dread the potential hurt or disappointment and fear rejection.
So they will often harbor negative views about themselves and others,
and they feel unworthy. They feel mistrustful.
And that attachment style is called disorganized because it's relationship patterns.
It's relational patterns are inconsistent. consistent.
People fear rejection, which then leads them to shun closeness and push people
away, but they just yearn for emotional intimacy.
Please come back for part two. Thanks for joining me here on Waking Up to Narcissism.
Please continue to send your stories.
Please reach out, ask questions, and join my women's Facebook group.
Reach out to me about my men's group. It's just starting up.
And then we will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.
Music.