Music.
Welcome to episode 107 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host,
Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And I want to start today with a couple of emails that I've received and actually
one post in the Private Women's Facebook group. Here's the email.
The person said, it's me again. And I want this person to know that I read all the emails.
I do read them. And if I could put out a podcast every day, even just reading
the emails, I think I would like to do that because I know that they help people
to feel seen and heard and understood.
They said me again. I've emailed a few times, but I thought that this might
be a good question for the podcast.
I'm in the process of leaving my narcissistic or emotionally immature spouse.
I have my PhD in gaslighting now, and I get my popcorn out as much as possible.
But while I'm getting better at sitting and watching and really trying to filter
what they're saying, I still end up with their digs, their sentences echoing
through my head, along with all the ones from previous years.
Despite working on myself, really getting into to grips with the truth,
seeing their manipulation, and
seeing that they are trying to push my buttons no matter how hard I try.
Their voice and insults echo through my head. I feel like I didn't know what
I didn't know, and now I do know, but it's still just not enough. Any tips?
I do have tips, so hang on. And then in the women's Facebook group,
someone said, this was said to me today, if I am so horrible, why are you still here?
Everybody I talk to is so confused about this, even my therapist.
And note, a further investigation into this comment confirmed that it was his
therapist who was confused.
She said, well, for one, we agreed to give it six months of commitment to marital
counseling, and two, this person has been a stay-at-home mom and wife for over 20 years.
So we're going to talk about those two things in great detail,
but first, a personal story.
And I want to set the stage by saying that I have been asked on occasion to
talk more about waking up to my own emotional immaturity, because that's a lot
of what this podcast was founded on.
And I talked a little bit more about that a hundred and something episodes ago,
never really anticipating that it would grow like it has. so I know that people
don't go back and listen to everything.
But there's a part of me that has always hesitated to talk about the lengthy
process, but one that I'm so grateful of, of waking up to my own emotional immaturity
or narcissistic traits and tendencies.
Sometimes because to a true emotionally immature narcissistic person,
then they're taking notes and it's a playbook.
But then I've also had to realize, well, that's a them issue.
And that's why I put out concepts around things like shelf life and introducing
positive tension or asking more follow-up questions about if somebody says.
I have changed, then tell me more about that.
I recently had someone in my office this week and they were talking about a
friend of theirs who has recently gone through a breakup of four or five years.
She was talking about her friend and she said her friend's former fiance came
over and said, and it had been a couple of weeks, So, there's one little bit
of a red flag, but said, I have changed.
I really have. I think I deserve a second chance.
And she said, I don't think so. And then he just immediately flipped and said,
okay, well, then I want all my stuff back.
You can basically just forget it. I'll never try again.
And so, I thought, boy, that change lasted a couple of seconds.
In that concept, again, that's some of the data that might be all that you really do need.
I do want to start talking more about what my own process of waking up to my
own emotional immaturity is, especially as my men's group that I've talked for
so long about is now launching on Thursday, February 22nd.
So reach out to me and I'm going to have my assistant Naomi reaching out to
a lot of the guys who have already emailed.
But if you're hearing this now and you haven't heard from me in a while or Naomi,
please contact me and we'll get you more information about that group.
But that takes me to a story.
Not long ago, my wife and my daughter Mackie, we traveled to Arizona to watch
my daughter Alex graduate radiology school.
And for any of you who follow along on the virtual couch or even some of the
earlier episodes of Waking Up to Narcissism, my daughter Alex almost two years
ago died in a car wreck. And so it is just a miracle to even get to go and watch
her graduate radiology school.
It was one of the most incredible weekends I think that I've had in a long time.
Now, add to that, I love movies. That's my happy place.
And I am also fascinated by the king, Elvis Presley.
And this was right when the movie Priscilla had opened. So we had an open night. So Priscilla it was.
And we have a theater where I live in California that you can eat dinner while you watch a movie.
And I really just enjoy that. Two of my very favorite things,
eating and watching movies. movies.
And I was looking for something similar in Arizona, and we found a theater called The Majestic.
And they had locations near us, Tempe, Gilbert, Chandler, I didn't really know
Arizona, but I knew that they were all pretty close, so I picked the one closest,
and I purchased the tickets.
Fast forward to that evening, we were having an amazing weekend.
The movie was set for 7.30, and we get to the theater around,
I think, maybe 20 minutes after 7.
I show the barcode for the tickets, I think I bought, there were five of us
there, and we headed to the actual theater. theater.
725 rolls around. I love previews. I could watch them over and over again.
So my family's wonderful. We're going to get there on time so we can watch the previews.
And then it's 730 and people are still in the theater and maybe 740 rolls around
and people start to walk out of the theater.
And I think, okay, well, we got to run right in there. And then the people cleaning
the theater say, it's going to be a little while.
And I'm confused. I haven't really seen a movie run that late before.
So I eventually go up to the front desk and the person there says,
Well, if they're still cleaning it, then they'll let you in at some point.
So I go back to my group and I just say so confused that I just don't really
understand what's going on here.
Why this is taking so long, why they're running so far behind.
And I look at the confirmation and I say, okay.
The movie says 7.30, we're seeing Priscilla, we're in Tempe, and in unison.
Everybody says, we're not in Tempe. In my mind, I hear old man.
We're in Gilbert, or it might have even been Chandler. I don't even remember.
Memory's fascinating, says this recovering confabulator.
So here's the significance of this entire story, and actually not entirely the
reason I share this story, and we'll get to that here in a little bit,
but I felt incredible discomfort.
I felt guilt. I felt stupid. I felt incompetent. I felt embarrassed.
I felt the comings on of shame. Not that I did something bad,
but I am bad. Here I go again.
And all of those are feelings and they're real. They're so real.
And they were there and I sat with them. Now, my primary emotion was probably
embarrassment and confidence.
And for so many emotionally immature people, including a very previous version
of me, we will do anything to get out of that moment.
And this is why I say that we're all emotionally immature until we're not.
And so there are ways to overcome that, to get better. What do we do to get
out of that discomfort? We'll do anything.
Anger, lashing out. Oh, okay. You guys are perfect or victimhood.
Man, I suck. I always do this. Seriously.
Or gaslighting. Okay. One of you guys said Tempe. How would I know? I don't know the area.
And so why didn't any of you stop me? Which honestly, you guys,
I kind of feel like you're all in on this on me.
I can't even believe that I'm the one paying for the movie. I could go on.
But here is where emotional growth, consistency, I am not, my feelings,
mindfulness, being able to pause, to just be, to accept that I booked tickets at the wrong place.
Check that out. That happened. Why? We'll start with because it did.
I didn't pause, I didn't confirm, I don't even know. And that's not even the
point. It happened. Acceptance.
To recognize the desire to point out all the other people's flaws,
to push off the feelings, to get rid of the discomfort.
So many things I could have done other than just be.
Own it. Look around me. If the worst thing that just happened was that on the
weekend that I get to go to Chandler, Tempe, or Gilbert, one of the areas,
maybe we travel to all of them.
And see my daughter, who I almost didn't have with me, graduate radiology school
with a son-in-law that I enjoy, and a daughter, Mackie, that I love,
and my wife is there, and we're in a movie theater,
if that is the worst thing that happened, then it's a pretty darn good day, for real.
And then, honestly, it kind of got better. I could have pretended then,
even once I accepted that, okay, well, now I'm going to lose money.
So, I could have pretended to the front desk, I don't know, something happened,
I need my money back, the app glitched. Why didn't she notice when she saw me
flash the barcode on my phone.
But instead, my daughter, Alex, and I walked up to the front because she felt she felt bad.
She took upon the feelings, I think, of the group as well, bless her heart.
And we went up to the front and I said, Hey, how often do people buy tickets
to the wrong or to a theater and then go to the wrong one?
And I really, I really admittedly wanted her to say all the time.
And she said, I mean, it's happened.
And so then I just I I explain what happened and she suggests that I call the
correct location and they might be able to refund the cost and that there was
another showing at that theater in another 30 minutes. So I bought the tickets.
We got the refund. We ate pizookies. They were incredible.
It's a cookie with ice cream and this little tin or steel thing,
whatever the pan is, Dutch oven kind of material. It was incredible.
And I look at that as I got reps in at my own personal emotionally mature gym. gym.
I was able to use those, sit with discomfort, recognize so many thoughts,
tit for tat anybody, shut down, flee, you name it.
And my wife even, absolutely, me assuming good intentions, even hit me with,
you know, I feel like this happens a lot a bit later, to which then I once again
wanted to go victim, prove her wrong, oh, well, tell me all the times.
But I was was aware of that.
And differentiation, anybody? Remember, differentiation is every single interaction,
every thought and emotion is a quick pop quiz to help you become a better you.
So I'll take that data in.
Yeah, and you know what? It has happened a couple or more times over the past
few years where I have purchased something for the wrong thing, a wrong hotel.
That was in Reno, Nevada, where I purchased it for the wrong weekend.
And we ended up finding a place to stay, and we made the best of it,
but I don't know about a lot.
But I don't even think that a four-pillared conversation about what a lot would
mean would have been productive or mattered.
I don't claim perfection anymore.
So I just said, man, that is funny, isn't it? And to me, what it feels like
to be me, it really did give me this opportunity to self-confront and grow and be better and do better.
And it gives me a great story for the podcast. Now, maybe we can have a four-pillared
conversation around the word great. But it is a story for the podcast.
Now, a little bit more back to the theater. theater. Pazooki, yes.
But they had a pretty incredible movie theater popcorn. I love it.
And that leads us back to where the two letters that I read at the beginning of the episode today.
Yeah, you're right. If you were thinking that we're going to talk a little bit
more today about those popcorn moments.
Because when I received the last email that referenced them,
I searched for the word popcorn in my email.
And I have dozens of examples of people saying, grabbing my popcorn,
sitting back with my popcorn, watching the show of my narcissist,
or my emotionally immature partner, try to get me to engage, pushing my buttons.
So, and even later today, I'll be talking with a client whose personal aha moment
came after listening to an earlier popcorn moment reference and an episode of
waking up to narcissism because they were able to sit back as at that point,
their wife tried everything to get him to engage and he didn't engage.
And he said it was at that point that he realized it really didn't matter what
he said, what what he did, that she was going to go in circles and try every
different emotion to get him to engage.
And when he didn't, then he saw that it really wasn't about whatever truth was,
that she just needed him to get angry or to...
Validate her experience and ignore his own.
But he realized, no, it's okay. It was for somebody to pull out any and everything,
especially the things that he had shared with her at some of his most vulnerable
moments to try and get him to engage.
Because the narcissist or the incredibly emotionally mature,
if we're going to get down in the deep psychology weeds, needs another human
to interact with in order to essentially know that they exist.
They operate from the false self, working on an an episode about that coming up soon.
So they need their supply. But what they need their supply to do is react because it's that reaction.
That's what they know what to do with. They need to be able to tell you that,
oh, geez, calm down. I didn't say that. Or I can't believe you didn't know that. Or, oh, you did that?
Yeah, I did that when I was a kid. I did that so much earlier than you, so much better than you.
So today we're going to spend some more time talking about popcorn and gaslighting and button pushing.
So we'll get back to those first two emails. But even before Before that,
in searching for the word popcorn in my emails, I came across a poem by a long-time
listener who has provided some wonderful insight that I had meant to read a
long time ago, but it had the word popcorn in it, so it came up in the search.
So I think that is fitting right here, right now.
So let me read that poem. Who am I? Where did I go?
What do I like? I'm not sure I know. Looking back at times, it seems clear.
Ignoring the signs has brought much fear. There are those brief moments of respite,
a breath of hope that this could be it.
Is change really happening now? Is it real?
It's been so long to even know how to feel, but back into the cycle we go,
round and round like a jolly good show.
Popcorn moments come again and again. It makes me wonder, when is this to end?
I don't give the benefit of the doubt, or so it's said, with a very big pout.
She'll just do what she wants to do, and I hang on to those nice moments, though few.
As I wake up to this disturbing reality, it is I that feels my mind is full of insanity.
Is it I? I ask all the time. Worry grows. She'd take my last dime.
Do I deserve better? Tony says so. There's always more to do before deciding
to go. What about the kids? What will they think?
The gaslighting pushes me to the brink.
PhD, you say? Can you have even more? My emotional baseline is higher than before.
Now I am stronger and more emotionally mature.
All I'm left with now is what is my future. I really do appreciate the poems.
I appreciate the letters, the things that you send in.
And there are a couple of people that actually wrote songs. And I realized that
I have not done anything with those.
And so if you have sent me a song, then please know that that is something that
I really do want to add onto the podcast.
So we'll get to those hopefully in the not too distant future.
So now let me go back to those letters that I started with today,
because I think now that we can see where we're going, they might sound a little
bit different because now we're going to start talking about these popcorn moments.
So that first one again, it was titled, when will I stop hearing their voice in my head?
Hi, Tony. I've emailed a few times, but I thought this might be a good question for the podcast.
I'm in the process of leaving my narcissistic or emotionally immature spouse.
I have my PhD in gaslighting now and get my popcorn out as much as possible.
But while I am getting better at sitting and watching and really trying to filter
what they are saying, I still end up with their digs, their sentences echoing
through my head, along with all the ones from previous years.
Despite working on myself, really getting into groups with the truth,
seeing their manipulation and. Yeah.
That they are trying to push my buttons. No matter how hard I try,
their voice and insults echo through my head.
I feel like I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I do know,
but it's still not enough. Any tips?
So I really do believe that when you start to have a reaction,
when you're getting to this good place, your emotional baseline's high,
you got that PhD in gaslighting, you're trying to get out of these unproductive conversations.
You now know what a healthy boundary looks like.
And you recognize I cannot give them that aha moment or that epiphany.
You're starting to be differentiated this is a me issue i can do and be i can
i can hold that assertive frame i can just not react and i can just be and then
all of a sudden here comes a new one here comes a new button why did that one
resonate why did that one get me to react.
And where this powerful shift starts to take place and i think that especially
in this second message this one that's from the narcissistic women's facebook
group you're in this really really good place.
And why did this one resonate? Why did this button work?
Why did I react? Because now I can, that this is going to, we're making that
shift into what it feels like to be me as someone that is feeling pretty good about myself.
I've done the work, but then I still find myself reacting.
So now check that out. Nothing wrong with me. I'm not broken. I'm human.
So now I can really step back and then I can take a look at why this button worked.
Why when they pressed this one that I reacted the way that I did.
So here's this other comment. Said to me today, if I am so horrible,
why are you still here? This is from the husband.
And then he says, everybody I talked to is so confused about this, even my therapist.
And again, a little further investigation confirmed that it was his therapist
who was confused, which then I would imagine, I don't know the situation,
that his therapist has been given a very one-sided account of what's going on.
So then she had responded, well, for one, we agreed to give it six months of
commitment to marital counseling. And two, I've been a stay-at-home mom and wife for 20 years.
She was so curious why that was said and why that bothered her.
And again, it's because it did, because it bothered her. So we can now look at this with curiosity.
Check this out. So I want to take a deeper dive now into popcorn moments.
And I want to throw some additional information in there.
And we're going to work my good friend differentiation in here as well,
because I think that we can start looking at the popcorn moment itself, not just like this.
Oh, this is a here's a quick side note, sit back and relax and eat your popcorn, watch the show.
But let's talk about the power with bits within these popcorn moments.
And if you're new here, imagine that you are in the theater of your own making.
And so, yes, the spotlight is on the narcissist, the emotionally immature.
And I'm just going to refer to them as the narcissist because it's less syllables.
So therefore, I'm expending less emotional calories.
So the spotlight, again, is on the narcissist in your life. And the show is about to start.
Now you've set a boundary, you put a line in the sand, and they are not used to seeing that line.
So what do they do? They're going to push it. so all
of a sudden you are not just a spectator you're the director
and you have called cut on the usual script and
instead of then the scene ending this is where the popcorn
moment kicks in because you have a front row
seat to the unveiling of a performance like no other so you lean back maybe
even with an actual bowl of popcorn in hand because the origin story of the
popcorn moment had had someone that their parent had talked to them and it was
a day or so after their birthday and said, hey, you never called me on your birthday.
This is the parent saying to the adult child, you never called me on your birthday.
And the adult child that was, say, the guy had been to the movies and had actual movie theater popcorn.
And that was when they were doing this work on not reacting,
not giving their narcissistic parent buttons to push.
And so, between every act of the The show where I think they saw, you know, humor.
Oh, I'm just joking. You know us. We joke to sadness. I'm such a bad person
to anger. I cannot believe we're going through this.
And then narcissistic medical exit. The person then just said,
I'm having a heart attack. I'm having something. I got to leave.
And the whole time they were literally eating movie theater popcorn.
So there's that origin story. So you may have an actual bowl of popcorn in hand.
And that scene unfolds. So the narcissist realizing their usual tactics aren't
working, they start going through their mental toolbox for something,
anything, any button they can push that will get a reaction out of you.
And it's like watching somebody just frantically search for these cheat codes
after they've been playing the game on easy mode for a long time.
It's been really easy for them. They say something. Why didn't you call me on your birthday?
And then I lose my stuff because I say, what are you kidding me? Nobody does that.
And then to the narcissist, they know what to do with that. oh wow,
boy, you need to calm down.
You definitely, you normally do call me and that's where the gas lighting comes in.
So they try every combo from crying while laughing and flipping a victimhood
to flattery with maybe a dramatic,
I can't live without you thrown in there for good measure, whatever they try
to get to work as you just calmly take in the next act.
And with each failed attempt to get you to break or to engage or to fall back
into that old familiar dance, they move move on to the next act and more accusations start flying.
You're just ridiculous. I'm leaving. Or the classic, this is like arguing with a toddler.
I'm out, which is ironic because it is like arguing with a toddler,
only the other way around.
And sometimes they might even pull at the heart strings with a,
again, oh my gosh, I'm getting really dizzy, medical exit.
And I was fascinated by when the first time I talked about this,
I got a lot of emails from people that said, said, I didn't know that was a thing.
You know, this is a sudden onset of a mysterious debilitating pain that conveniently
acts up in these moments of almost defeat.
But the theme is almost always, I'm leaving. It's a line delivered with the
hope that that one might work, that finally this time it'll make you jump back
into the script. No, no, no, don't go.
But then here is the twist in this play. When they've stormed off stage before
leaving you in silence, you might have been the the one to break the silence, reach out, apologize.
But this time you just stayed seated, popcorn in hand. Wondering if there's
any scenes like after the credits. I don't know if you're that person in the movies. I am.
Because you're just fully aware
that this is just another scene and their repertoire of manipulation.
So this moment, these powerful popcorn moments, they're important not just because
you're enjoying their discomfort, but because it symbolizes a big shift in the dynamic and in you.
Because now you're seeing behind the curtain. You're starting to understand
the tricks and you've chosen not to play your part.
And instead you watch and you learn and you protect your peace.
And in doing so, you turn a moment of potential chaos into an opportunity for
empowerment, for growth, understanding that the only performance worth investing
in is the one where you are the star of your own life.
You are the one that's writing a script. It's a script of resilience.
It's a script of boundaries.
It's a script of self-respect.
And remember that popcorn moment
is not about gloating in their struggle because i know
that most of you are going to be the pathologically kind people that are
having to to put this into action and it's
so it's not you're not a sadist you're not a sociopath
or but it's about recognizing the patterns and the manipulation and then choosing
not to engage and it's really starts to become a testament of your strength
and it's a sign that you are starting to move forward and eventually getting
beyond the reach of their games to get you back into this confusion-making machine.
And in the end, you are left with something that's far more valuable than a
victory over a narcissist.
Because it's not about that. It's not about winning or losing.
What you gain is your peace.
It's your dignity and maybe even a newfound taste for movie theater popcorn.
And if you don't like movie theater popcorn, we need to talk about that.
But that That popcorn moment comes from the work that you've done to set up for the big show.
And that is done by my, I named it, I want to take this name back maybe,
my five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense.
Which again, number one is raise your emotional baseline, elevate that emotional gain.
It's about self-care. And that is something that I think that we often don't
think is something that is necessary or that we even have time for.
We put this on the sidelines a lot when we're dealing with the whirlwind that's
caused by the narcissists in our lives.
But it's self-care. I mean, it's like running a marathon without training or
without eating right. Matter of fact, very, very true story.
The very first marathon that I ever ran.
And at this point now, I've been fortunate to run over 100 marathons and ultra
marathons. The very first one that I ever tried to do, I think it might have
actually been at the dawn of the internet. So I wasn't Googling things.
Maybe if there was an Alta Vista search engine at the time.
I didn't know. Absolutely what I didn't know. I did not eat well.
I actually didn't eat a lot for the two or three days leading up to it because
I thought that I needed to feel light on my feet.
And I didn't eat enough. And I crashed and bonked at mile 13.
And I walked right into a Taco Bell that happened to be by the mile 13 with my race number on.
And then I grabbed some sort of burrito, eat it, walk right out and throw up.
So really, imagine without running that marathon, without training, without eating right.
It is tough. But that's what it's like trying to tackle a narcissistic challenge
without being kind to yourself first.
And self-care is not about indulgence. It's your armor. It's not about going to the spa.
It can be anything. It can be dreaming. It can be hitting the gym or choosing
salad over fries sometimes if you're feeling crazy or just zoning out with your
favorite book. book, but it's all about keeping your emotional tank full.
So when you're faced with a narcissistic drama, you're ready to face it head
on and not from a place of exhaustion or depletion, because I love this phrase,
you can't pour from an empty cup.
Now, the second thing is get your PhD in gaslighting. Gaslighting is,
it comes from that 1940s thriller, but it is very much a modern day manipulation
tactic because just picture somebody that is trying to convince you that the
sky isn't blue, but it's green.
And after enough repetition, you honestly start start questioning your own eyes,
that's gaslighting. And it's a favorite tool in the narcissist kit,
and it makes you doubt your memory and your perception and your sanity.
But studies show that this can start to mess with your brain in a lot of serious
ways, leading to things like anxiety and a whole host of issues,
because you start to just doubt yourself in everything that you do.
And this is part of that complex post-traumatic stress disorder, CPTSD, where your short.
Your shirt is torn? No, your short-term memory, it starts to think,
I'm no longer needed right now.
And if things don't start in your short-term memory, they're not going into
your long-term memory, but all that blood flow is going to your amygdala,
to that fight-or-flight response.
So, it can really cause some challenges to you staying present because your
brain just says, get ready for the fight-or-flight response.
Now, when you get out of a narcissistic relationship, then your brain,
thank goodness, that wonderful neuroplasticity, it can heal.
But this is why knowledge is such power that the more you know about gaslighting,
the better you can just say, nice try.
But I'm not buying what you're selling. I'm not picking up what you're putting
down. That third rule is getting out of unproductive conversations.
And I think that if you really start to recognize the gaslighting,
then you see that it will lead to a debate that seems to go around in circles
and you can't even stay on topic because you're trying to chase whatever the
thing is that they're gaslighting you about. out.
Especially you see this with somebody who refuses to see any perspective,
but their own, they're not taking ownership of anything.
That wasn't the case. They didn't do it. That becomes your cue to just gracefully
bow out because arguing with a, argue with a narcissist, this is a so cliched,
but it really is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.
And after a while you realize the pig enjoys it and you're in the mud.
So when you spot the the gaslighting or just sheer stubbornness,
it's time to drop the rope.
Don't waste your breath trying to prove that you're sane or right.
It's not about giving up. It's about choosing where to invest your energy wisely.
And now we're talking about boundaries next. You have to master that art of
boundary setting. And I really think every chance I get, I want to talk about
a boundary versus an ultimatum.
Boundaries are, they act as your own set of rules. They outline what you're
willing to accept and what you're not in your interactions with the world and
how you respond to all the experiences that you're having in life.
Boundaries usually have very little to do with anybody else because on your
journey of becoming more emotionally mature and consistent, chances are you
are going to want to set more boundaries.
But it's easy to confuse the boundary with an ultimatum. A boundary is a you
thing and an ultimatum, it's a them thing.
But they often resemble, a boundary often resembles an if-then statement.
For example, if you start yelling at me, then I'll leave the room.
If you continue to tell me what I'm thinking or claim to know what I don't without
asking me first, then I'll do something more productive instead of wasting my
emotional calories on whatever this verbal dance is that we're doing.
On the other hand, an ultimatum is something like, you need to stop telling
me what I'm thinking because that's really about the other person.
That you need to stop now i wish they
would and i might even ask them to but it's different from setting
a personal boundary and when you're looking at these times of
emotional maturity we often take our triggers for example like somebody
assuming that they know our thoughts and then we turn them into ultimatums you
need to stop versus a boundary of if you don't stop then i will leave ultimatums
often they're more about trying to avoid or get rid of our discomfort than setting
healthy limits and we we typically give away our power if we rely on others
to stop making us feel uncomfortable.
We're saying, hey, you need to do this thing. I just handed you my power.
And if you don't, then I'm still going to be angry.
And because even the best people will eventually make mistakes.
And then that will perpetuate our feelings of being misunderstood or unfortunately unlovable.
So if we don't understand or if we don't love ourselves, how can we expect others
to get it right or to love us?
So remember a boundary, it can actually be a wonderful thing that is all about you.
And boundaries are like, they're like personal policies that define what you're
okay with and what you're not.
So, those become crucial for maintaining your sanity in any relationship,
but especially in one with a narcissist.
You know, it is setting rules for a game where you get to be the referee.
You're the one that gets to call the shots. It's not about controlling the other
player, the narcissist, but it's about protecting your peace.
Setting boundaries is a sign of emotional maturity because it shows that that
you know your worth and you're not willing to compromise it.
And then that fifth thing is you cannot give that other person the aha moment.
Because it's a myth that we can give somebody else the aha moment.
We've all hoped for that breakthrough moment when the narcissist suddenly sees
the light and changes their ways.
And I used to think I was pretty funny when somebody would say,
and then I told him, you don't even recognize that this is what you're doing.
And then I used to say, and then did he say, oh my gosh, I've never thought
of that before. That is great insight. I'll never do it again.
And then the person will look at me and say, no. And then I say,
no, I know that's not what happened. Because again, you're trying to give that person the aha moment.
Because the aha moment, if you're waiting for that, it's kind of like waiting
for a unicorn to show up at your birthday party.
It's a really nice thought, but it's unlikely.
So the truth is, though, real change has to come from within.
And you can't force someone to see what they're not ready or willing to see.
So it's really important to manage your own expectations and understand that
your energy is better spent on your growth and happiness.
So now that those are in place, now come the popcorn moments.
Because within those strategies, especially when setting boundaries,
that's when you'll encounter the popcorn moment.
These are the times that you've laid down a boundary and now you get to watch
the narcissist try every trick in the book to get you to engage.
Instead of getting sucked back
into the drama, you sit back again with popcorn and watch as they flail.
And it's not about being cold or uncaring, recognizing patterns.
It's about recognizing patterns and choosing not to play into it.
They are powerful moments that help you start to recognize that you are shifting
the internal landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be you.
And that leaves a narcissist confused, bewildered, but more importantly,
powerless to disrupt your peace.
Because I will say that I'm asked often, what do you do if you do feel like
you are stuck within that relationship in an emotionally mature narcissistic relationship?
And you're the only one that knows what it feels like to be you.
And so there is nothing that anyone can say or do to get you to then leave that relationship.
What do you do? And let's go big here in closing on the concepts of differentiation,
because you can be differentiated within any relationship.
Because again, that differentiation is when somebody says something,
does something, and you have feelings, you react.
If you really can step back and take a look at that as a, this is a me issue. Why am I frustrated?
Okay. The reason why is I do feel like I deserve to be heard and I deserve to
be understood. understood or I feel like my own body is telling me that this
is not safe. So why are you continuing to put yourself in this position?
Then there's my work. My work is to learn how to set those boundaries.
My work is to learn how to leave a unproductive conversation,
even if I am hearing more buttons pushing.
And this is the last thing I'm saying is that, so there's your,
there's your script, there's your homework, because I don't want anybody to
have to live in that environment. But we're 100 and something episodes into
waking up to narcissism.
And I think that those that listen often, and especially if you're still here
on this episode, know that if only it were that easy to just set that boundary
and say, I'll never do this again.
So you can learn to be differentiated within the relationship,
which I think then can raise your emotional baseline to a point where then you
will have better tools or more information or more data to then know what to
do next as your baseline of emotions grows higher and higher.
And it is gonna come with new buttons being pushed
which is the importance of the popcorn moment so again
know that there is a potential for continued growth
but we have to accept the fact that that growth might be I'm learning to not
engage I'm learning to sit with discomfort and not be heard that is not ideal
but if you feel like that is where you are right now or you're stuck in that
relationship it gives you strategies to work on so that you can start to feel more empowered.
Because you're not just surviving, you're learning how to thrive on your own terms.
If you have grown weary of the word differentiation, then we can call this a
day right now. Thank you so much for joining.
But if not, sit back, relax, and let's talk about more differentiation.
And I'm going to put it in the context of these five strategies that I often talk about.
So as a reminder, differentiation then, especially in the context of personal
development and and relationships, it is the process of defining yourself as
an individual, separate from the opinions, the needs, and the behaviors of somebody else.
And it helps you establish your own beliefs, your own values,
your own boundaries, and learning how to maintain a sense of self while being close to others.
And I think when this one clicks, it's a beautiful principle because then I, in essence,
have to interact with others in order to then have feelings and thoughts and
opinions that then I can work on to help me understand really who I am and what it feels like to be me.
And now that can start from just dreaming. It can start from reading.
It can start from watching and listening to things.
And then as you go out and navigate the world around you and move away from
being isolated, because typically that isolation comes from somebody that feels
like what is wrong with me or I am broken.
And then as you start to gain confidence and interact, then you do start to
find a sweet sweet spot where the interactions, I know what my worth is.
I know that I am lovable and I no longer have to beg somebody else to love me or see me.
And so I will find those relationships and along the way I will find myself.
So this becomes absolutely pivotal when navigating relationships with emotionally
immature people or moving away also from patterns of people pleasing or codependency.
So what I want to do now is talk about the concepts of differentiation and running
those through the five foolproof formulas for navigating the narcissistic nonsense
with that first one of raising your emotional baseline or self-care is not selfish,
elevating your emotional game through self-care.
Now, if you throw the differentiation aspect into here, then prioritizing your
own self-care would be a foundational act of differentiation because it shows
that you are recognizing your needs and well-being and emotional health as important
Important and distinct from the other demands or criticisms of a narcissistic partner.
And even as I say that, I can imagine some of the pathologically kind people
saying, okay, but it just doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right.
And that is true. And this is where you get to learn how to grow through that kind of discomfort.
And discomfort in the name of
self-care is the best kind of discomfort to work with or to grow through.
So by focusing on your self-care, then you start to tell yourself,
which eventually is going to show others that your value and your worth are
not contingent on somebody else's approval or on their mood, but they are inherent.
They are inborn. They are God-given and you are deserving of being loved and
feeling love and nurturing your own goodness.
And then that second concept of get your PhD in gaslighting,
if we throw the differentiation blanket over it, then educating yourself about
gaslighting and becoming adept at recognizing it in action, again,
is an exercise in differentiation because it means that you start to trust your
own perceptions and memories over the manipulative narratives of somebody else.
And that self-trust is a cornerstone of differentiation because it allows you
to continue to maintain a foot firmly in reality, even if somebody tries to blur those lines.
And this is why I talk so often about the mechanisms of memory or the fallibility
of memory or confabulated memory because I'm not saying that I have some amazing
memory. I'm saying that none of us do.
And so when somebody else is questioning our memory, that is adorable because
I don't necessarily trust my own memory, but I certainly don't trust the memory
of someone else over me. And that does take practice.
The third rule and the five foolproof formulas, I think I'm going to have to
look for a different name because that That does not just flow right off of the tongue.
But the third rule is getting out of unproductive conversations and cutting
off the pointless or fruitless chats.
So from a differentiation aspect, choosing to disengage from unproductive conversations
with an emotionally immature narcissistic person continues to highlight your
ability to differentiate your need for resolution or understanding from the
narcissist's need to dominate or confuse.
Because the longer you stay in that conversation, the more likely it is that you will feel confused.
And it shows an understanding that you are a completely separate human being,
a separate entity who does not have to be caught up in endless cycles of conflict
and manipulation and just all of that confusion that gaslighting brings on.
And that because you know now that doesn't serve anybody, especially not you
or your sense of peace or well-being.
And which leads to then the fourth of the five foolproof formulas,
mastering the art of boundary setting, learning Learning how to set healthy
boundaries, understanding a boundary versus an ultimatum, because from a differentiated
aspect, setting healthy boundaries,
it maybe is the most direct form of differentiation because it involves clearly
stating what you will and will not accept.
That is delineating the line in the sand where you end and the other person begins.
And this separation, it's part of the becoming more emotionally mature.
It's vital in moving away from people-pleasing or codependency.
And it affirms that your feelings, needs, and comfort matter independently of
anybody else's desires or demands.
And if that still sounds a little bit uncomfortable, we'll get there.
And then that last thing of you'll never give the other person the aha moment.
This myth of the aha moment from a differentiated aspect
accepting that you cannot force an epiphany or change
in a narcissist or an emotionally immature person is actually
a mature acknowledgement of differentiation because
it recognizes that you are an autonomous individual
but you also are not
the center of the universe you have limits to your own influence
especially over somebody else's capacity for self-reflection and
growth and that is absolutely frustrating at times but
that acceptance it will liberate you from just this
exhausting endeavor or futile endeavor
of trying to fix or save somebody who must choose
to embark on that journey themselves and that is not
a you issue if this person bless their heart honest
to goodness if they didn't ever see that modeled in the home and if they truly
don't know what they don't know the more that you're trying to get them to know
something that they don't know at the detriment of your own self-worth is something
that just is a waste of emotional time and emotional calories and energy.
Let me go over a few more reasons why then now that you've got that concept
of how differentiation fits into each one of these five foolproof formulas for
navigating narcissistic nonsense. I said that without looking at notes.
Then I think that things will maybe click and then we'll send you on your way to have an amazing week.
But it's crucial for your emotional health because becoming differentiated, even in this scenario,
it fosters a healthier emotional life where your self-esteem and your well-being
are not excessively tied to the behaviors or the approval of others,
especially somebody that doesn't have your best interest in mind.
Autonomy. Differentiation allows you for greater autonomy in your life and it
helps you make decisions and show up better in your relationships and especially
with those that you care about,
those that you love your children just those that that are
saying i do see you at times and that enables you to pursue what truly fulfills
and matters to you so if you again are a spiritual being if you are someone
who believes that you do have a light within you then this allows you to let
that light so shine when you are not trying to manage the time the experiences of other people,
because that that is causing you to just continually question and doubt yourself
And I can't even express what that feels like to be in a healthy relationship,
a healthy adult relationship when you just get to do and be because that is
where you are just interacting with the world and your partner with curiosity
and you're having shared experiences and you're learning so much about yourself
and it becomes just invigorating, intoxicating.
And so that those healthier relationships, then that will reduce the likelihood
of being enmeshed or codependent or losing yourself and the needs or the desires of others.
And then when you are showing up for your partner, you are choosing them and they are choosing you.
And this just gives you a tremendous amount of resilience because the more differentiated
you become, then that builds up this resilience against manipulation and emotional abuse.
So even if you do end up outside of the relationship where you were first enmeshed
and codependent, then you won't fall for that again.
And so many people worry that their picker is broken when they get out of unhealthy
relationships, but it is the process of becoming and being more differentiated
and more emotionally whole whole and with that baseline high,
where now you will absolutely see those emotional abuse tactics coming from
several miles away and will just not want to engage in those at all.
You'll be able to trust that gut.
And then the more you do that, it just fortifies your own sense of self and
the reality of situations and relationships.
So in essence, differentiation then is about becoming more of who you are,
who you are intended to be, who you are put on this earth to be,
who you hope to become separate from the pressure and influence of those around you.
And it is just so crucial for anybody, but especially those navigating the complex
relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people,
because it will empower you to prioritize your well-being,
respect your boundaries, and maintain your individuality.
Okay, so we've hit the what did we learn today segment of the podcast,
and I'll make these quick.
Self-care is a wonderful shield. It isn't just about wellness,
it is a critical strategy for emotional survival in the face of narcissistic behavior.
So ensuring that you are physically, emotionally, mentally fortified,
you are so much more equipped to handle manipulation and maintain your own sense of self.
Next, I would say that it's so important to understand and have knowledge around
boundaries as power, because the more that you understand the tactics used by
the narcissist or the emotionally immature,
particularly gaslighting, and you learn how to
set these boundaries and they're not ultimatums it's not
a you better it's that if you then i they not
only protect you from manipulation but they help you start
to figure out yourself they reinforce your autonomy and helps you remain grounded
in your truth and your values and then good old differentiation it is it is
also known as liberation the process of differentiation defining and asserting
your identity your needs and your boundaries separate separate from other people,
that is a tool of liberation.
And it moves you away from the roles of people-pleasing codependency and helps
you just be a more resilient person, have a greater sense of self that starts
to thrive on autonomy and integrity, and you just start to gain confidence.
But the biggest thing, I think, by far, is grab that popcorn.
Honestly, because the concept of these popcorn moments, it starts to stand out
not just as a method of coping, but it is that symbol of transformation.
And so then all of these moments when you start to learn how to observe rather
than to engage, that I think represents the pinnacle of growth.
Because that's where you can start to really see the value of your own self
work, your dedication to self care, you're setting boundaries,
you're understanding manipulation and action.
And it's in those moments that I think you start to realize your strength and
your resilience and the distance that you've already traveled on this path of
becoming differentiated.
Because those popcorn moments, they're the things that can remind you that the
best reaction so often is no reaction.
And it gives you just that space to enjoy the show of attempted manipulation
without letting it disturb your inner peace.
And those popcorn moments teach you that despite the chaos that a narcissist
tries to bring into your life, you have the power to choose tranquility,
choose detachment, to just observe.
And so as you navigate through these interactions, remember,
keep that popcorn handy.
After all, when it comes to dealing with narcissistic or emotionally immature
behavior, it is so much better to be the one watching the movie than to be part
of that drama or the horror or even the comedy in those movies because it's
really not not that funny.
And just think, every popcorn moment is a kernel of truth popping into your
awareness. Sorry I had to do it.
Helping you, I can't do this one, better understand yourself and the relationship
you choose to assault or leave behind.
I wish I could insert a groan, but I am grateful you were here.
Have an amazing week and feel free to send in your examples,
write, and I will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.
Music.