WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.200 Music. 00:00:05.044 --> 00:00:08.944 Welcome to episode 107 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host, 00:00:08.984 --> 00:00:10.944 Tony Overbay, a licensed marriage and family therapist. 00:00:11.264 --> 00:00:15.584 And I want to start today with a couple of emails that I've received and actually 00:00:15.584 --> 00:00:19.804 one post in the Private Women's Facebook group. Here's the email. 00:00:20.544 --> 00:00:25.724 The person said, it's me again. And I want this person to know that I read all the emails. 00:00:25.884 --> 00:00:29.164 I do read them. And if I could put out a podcast every day, even just reading 00:00:29.164 --> 00:00:32.504 the emails, I think I would like to do that because I know that they help people 00:00:32.504 --> 00:00:34.404 to feel seen and heard and understood. 00:00:34.584 --> 00:00:38.024 They said me again. I've emailed a few times, but I thought that this might 00:00:38.024 --> 00:00:39.304 be a good question for the podcast. 00:00:39.664 --> 00:00:43.144 I'm in the process of leaving my narcissistic or emotionally immature spouse. 00:00:43.344 --> 00:00:47.384 I have my PhD in gaslighting now, and I get my popcorn out as much as possible. 00:00:47.544 --> 00:00:51.184 But while I'm getting better at sitting and watching and really trying to filter 00:00:51.184 --> 00:00:55.844 what they're saying, I still end up with their digs, their sentences echoing 00:00:55.844 --> 00:00:59.344 through my head, along with all the ones from previous years. 00:00:59.684 --> 00:01:03.504 Despite working on myself, really getting into to grips with the truth, 00:01:03.664 --> 00:01:05.704 seeing their manipulation, and 00:01:05.704 --> 00:01:09.224 seeing that they are trying to push my buttons no matter how hard I try. 00:01:09.804 --> 00:01:13.904 Their voice and insults echo through my head. I feel like I didn't know what 00:01:13.904 --> 00:01:18.284 I didn't know, and now I do know, but it's still just not enough. Any tips? 00:01:19.044 --> 00:01:23.604 I do have tips, so hang on. And then in the women's Facebook group, 00:01:23.724 --> 00:01:28.744 someone said, this was said to me today, if I am so horrible, why are you still here? 00:01:29.344 --> 00:01:32.564 Everybody I talk to is so confused about this, even my therapist. 00:01:32.924 --> 00:01:38.424 And note, a further investigation into this comment confirmed that it was his 00:01:38.424 --> 00:01:39.584 therapist who was confused. 00:01:40.064 --> 00:01:44.104 She said, well, for one, we agreed to give it six months of commitment to marital 00:01:44.104 --> 00:01:49.124 counseling, and two, this person has been a stay-at-home mom and wife for over 20 years. 00:01:49.965 --> 00:01:52.585 So we're going to talk about those two things in great detail, 00:01:52.825 --> 00:01:55.365 but first, a personal story. 00:01:55.905 --> 00:02:00.605 And I want to set the stage by saying that I have been asked on occasion to 00:02:00.605 --> 00:02:05.005 talk more about waking up to my own emotional immaturity, because that's a lot 00:02:05.005 --> 00:02:06.565 of what this podcast was founded on. 00:02:06.725 --> 00:02:11.065 And I talked a little bit more about that a hundred and something episodes ago, 00:02:11.165 --> 00:02:15.105 never really anticipating that it would grow like it has. so I know that people 00:02:15.105 --> 00:02:16.445 don't go back and listen to everything. 00:02:16.785 --> 00:02:22.445 But there's a part of me that has always hesitated to talk about the lengthy 00:02:22.445 --> 00:02:26.345 process, but one that I'm so grateful of, of waking up to my own emotional immaturity 00:02:26.345 --> 00:02:28.225 or narcissistic traits and tendencies. 00:02:28.825 --> 00:02:32.925 Sometimes because to a true emotionally immature narcissistic person, 00:02:33.085 --> 00:02:35.465 then they're taking notes and it's a playbook. 00:02:35.585 --> 00:02:38.405 But then I've also had to realize, well, that's a them issue. 00:02:38.605 --> 00:02:42.605 And that's why I put out concepts around things like shelf life and introducing 00:02:42.605 --> 00:02:47.325 positive tension or asking more follow-up questions about if somebody says. 00:02:47.825 --> 00:02:50.525 I have changed, then tell me more about that. 00:02:50.645 --> 00:02:53.685 I recently had someone in my office this week and they were talking about a 00:02:53.685 --> 00:02:58.865 friend of theirs who has recently gone through a breakup of four or five years. 00:02:59.145 --> 00:03:03.725 She was talking about her friend and she said her friend's former fiance came 00:03:03.725 --> 00:03:07.665 over and said, and it had been a couple of weeks, So, there's one little bit 00:03:07.665 --> 00:03:10.265 of a red flag, but said, I have changed. 00:03:10.465 --> 00:03:12.685 I really have. I think I deserve a second chance. 00:03:12.945 --> 00:03:17.045 And she said, I don't think so. And then he just immediately flipped and said, 00:03:17.125 --> 00:03:19.385 okay, well, then I want all my stuff back. 00:03:19.565 --> 00:03:22.425 You can basically just forget it. I'll never try again. 00:03:22.725 --> 00:03:25.965 And so, I thought, boy, that change lasted a couple of seconds. 00:03:25.965 --> 00:03:31.425 In that concept, again, that's some of the data that might be all that you really do need. 00:03:31.665 --> 00:03:35.805 I do want to start talking more about what my own process of waking up to my 00:03:35.805 --> 00:03:40.645 own emotional immaturity is, especially as my men's group that I've talked for 00:03:40.645 --> 00:03:46.265 so long about is now launching on Thursday, February 22nd. 00:03:46.265 --> 00:03:49.645 So reach out to me and I'm going to have my assistant Naomi reaching out to 00:03:49.645 --> 00:03:51.865 a lot of the guys who have already emailed. 00:03:52.025 --> 00:03:55.145 But if you're hearing this now and you haven't heard from me in a while or Naomi, 00:03:55.285 --> 00:03:58.785 please contact me and we'll get you more information about that group. 00:03:58.885 --> 00:04:00.125 But that takes me to a story. 00:04:00.245 --> 00:04:04.605 Not long ago, my wife and my daughter Mackie, we traveled to Arizona to watch 00:04:04.605 --> 00:04:06.525 my daughter Alex graduate radiology school. 00:04:06.885 --> 00:04:10.765 And for any of you who follow along on the virtual couch or even some of the 00:04:10.765 --> 00:04:14.025 earlier episodes of Waking Up to Narcissism, my daughter Alex almost two years 00:04:14.025 --> 00:04:18.465 ago died in a car wreck. And so it is just a miracle to even get to go and watch 00:04:18.465 --> 00:04:19.845 her graduate radiology school. 00:04:19.925 --> 00:04:23.005 It was one of the most incredible weekends I think that I've had in a long time. 00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:27.000 Now, add to that, I love movies. That's my happy place. 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:31.120 And I am also fascinated by the king, Elvis Presley. 00:04:31.400 --> 00:04:36.200 And this was right when the movie Priscilla had opened. So we had an open night. So Priscilla it was. 00:04:36.320 --> 00:04:39.700 And we have a theater where I live in California that you can eat dinner while you watch a movie. 00:04:39.960 --> 00:04:42.680 And I really just enjoy that. Two of my very favorite things, 00:04:42.820 --> 00:04:43.980 eating and watching movies. movies. 00:04:44.260 --> 00:04:48.160 And I was looking for something similar in Arizona, and we found a theater called The Majestic. 00:04:48.440 --> 00:04:52.220 And they had locations near us, Tempe, Gilbert, Chandler, I didn't really know 00:04:52.220 --> 00:04:55.860 Arizona, but I knew that they were all pretty close, so I picked the one closest, 00:04:55.960 --> 00:04:57.120 and I purchased the tickets. 00:04:57.640 --> 00:05:00.500 Fast forward to that evening, we were having an amazing weekend. 00:05:00.840 --> 00:05:03.860 The movie was set for 7.30, and we get to the theater around, 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.660 I think, maybe 20 minutes after 7. 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:09.600 I show the barcode for the tickets, I think I bought, there were five of us 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.900 there, and we headed to the actual theater. theater. 00:05:12.400 --> 00:05:16.360 725 rolls around. I love previews. I could watch them over and over again. 00:05:16.700 --> 00:05:20.440 So my family's wonderful. We're going to get there on time so we can watch the previews. 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:25.100 And then it's 730 and people are still in the theater and maybe 740 rolls around 00:05:25.100 --> 00:05:28.200 and people start to walk out of the theater. 00:05:28.320 --> 00:05:31.740 And I think, okay, well, we got to run right in there. And then the people cleaning 00:05:31.740 --> 00:05:33.660 the theater say, it's going to be a little while. 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:37.200 And I'm confused. I haven't really seen a movie run that late before. 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:40.020 So I eventually go up to the front desk and the person there says, 00:05:40.020 --> 00:05:43.160 Well, if they're still cleaning it, then they'll let you in at some point. 00:05:43.540 --> 00:05:48.040 So I go back to my group and I just say so confused that I just don't really 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:49.120 understand what's going on here. 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:51.940 Why this is taking so long, why they're running so far behind. 00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:54.120 And I look at the confirmation and I say, okay. 00:05:55.151 --> 00:06:00.691 The movie says 7.30, we're seeing Priscilla, we're in Tempe, and in unison. 00:06:01.111 --> 00:06:05.051 Everybody says, we're not in Tempe. In my mind, I hear old man. 00:06:05.451 --> 00:06:08.331 We're in Gilbert, or it might have even been Chandler. I don't even remember. 00:06:08.431 --> 00:06:11.711 Memory's fascinating, says this recovering confabulator. 00:06:12.051 --> 00:06:15.431 So here's the significance of this entire story, and actually not entirely the 00:06:15.431 --> 00:06:17.771 reason I share this story, and we'll get to that here in a little bit, 00:06:17.891 --> 00:06:21.011 but I felt incredible discomfort. 00:06:21.431 --> 00:06:25.511 I felt guilt. I felt stupid. I felt incompetent. I felt embarrassed. 00:06:25.971 --> 00:06:30.231 I felt the comings on of shame. Not that I did something bad, 00:06:30.291 --> 00:06:32.251 but I am bad. Here I go again. 00:06:32.611 --> 00:06:36.971 And all of those are feelings and they're real. They're so real. 00:06:37.391 --> 00:06:41.431 And they were there and I sat with them. Now, my primary emotion was probably 00:06:41.431 --> 00:06:43.331 embarrassment and confidence. 00:06:43.871 --> 00:06:49.011 And for so many emotionally immature people, including a very previous version 00:06:49.011 --> 00:06:51.911 of me, we will do anything to get out of that moment. 00:06:52.011 --> 00:06:54.731 And this is why I say that we're all emotionally immature until we're not. 00:06:55.131 --> 00:07:00.091 And so there are ways to overcome that, to get better. What do we do to get 00:07:00.091 --> 00:07:02.151 out of that discomfort? We'll do anything. 00:07:02.631 --> 00:07:06.851 Anger, lashing out. Oh, okay. You guys are perfect or victimhood. 00:07:06.951 --> 00:07:09.491 Man, I suck. I always do this. Seriously. 00:07:09.751 --> 00:07:15.211 Or gaslighting. Okay. One of you guys said Tempe. How would I know? I don't know the area. 00:07:15.431 --> 00:07:18.851 And so why didn't any of you stop me? Which honestly, you guys, 00:07:18.891 --> 00:07:21.071 I kind of feel like you're all in on this on me. 00:07:21.131 --> 00:07:23.951 I can't even believe that I'm the one paying for the movie. I could go on. 00:07:24.331 --> 00:07:29.151 But here is where emotional growth, consistency, I am not, my feelings, 00:07:29.371 --> 00:07:35.331 mindfulness, being able to pause, to just be, to accept that I booked tickets at the wrong place. 00:07:35.651 --> 00:07:39.991 Check that out. That happened. Why? We'll start with because it did. 00:07:40.937 --> 00:07:44.717 I didn't pause, I didn't confirm, I don't even know. And that's not even the 00:07:44.717 --> 00:07:46.097 point. It happened. Acceptance. 00:07:46.477 --> 00:07:50.557 To recognize the desire to point out all the other people's flaws, 00:07:50.637 --> 00:07:53.197 to push off the feelings, to get rid of the discomfort. 00:07:53.277 --> 00:07:57.817 So many things I could have done other than just be. 00:07:57.997 --> 00:08:02.197 Own it. Look around me. If the worst thing that just happened was that on the 00:08:02.197 --> 00:08:08.297 weekend that I get to go to Chandler, Tempe, or Gilbert, one of the areas, 00:08:08.437 --> 00:08:10.277 maybe we travel to all of them. 00:08:10.937 --> 00:08:15.777 And see my daughter, who I almost didn't have with me, graduate radiology school 00:08:15.777 --> 00:08:19.237 with a son-in-law that I enjoy, and a daughter, Mackie, that I love, 00:08:19.257 --> 00:08:21.477 and my wife is there, and we're in a movie theater, 00:08:21.917 --> 00:08:27.497 if that is the worst thing that happened, then it's a pretty darn good day, for real. 00:08:28.097 --> 00:08:31.097 And then, honestly, it kind of got better. I could have pretended then, 00:08:31.177 --> 00:08:34.977 even once I accepted that, okay, well, now I'm going to lose money. 00:08:35.257 --> 00:08:38.037 So, I could have pretended to the front desk, I don't know, something happened, 00:08:38.177 --> 00:08:41.857 I need my money back, the app glitched. Why didn't she notice when she saw me 00:08:41.857 --> 00:08:42.957 flash the barcode on my phone. 00:08:43.197 --> 00:08:47.797 But instead, my daughter, Alex, and I walked up to the front because she felt she felt bad. 00:08:47.897 --> 00:08:51.457 She took upon the feelings, I think, of the group as well, bless her heart. 00:08:51.857 --> 00:08:56.237 And we went up to the front and I said, Hey, how often do people buy tickets 00:08:56.237 --> 00:08:58.497 to the wrong or to a theater and then go to the wrong one? 00:08:59.017 --> 00:09:01.977 And I really, I really admittedly wanted her to say all the time. 00:09:01.997 --> 00:09:03.197 And she said, I mean, it's happened. 00:09:03.537 --> 00:09:08.217 And so then I just I I explain what happened and she suggests that I call the 00:09:08.217 --> 00:09:12.957 correct location and they might be able to refund the cost and that there was 00:09:12.957 --> 00:09:16.997 another showing at that theater in another 30 minutes. So I bought the tickets. 00:09:17.437 --> 00:09:21.497 We got the refund. We ate pizookies. They were incredible. 00:09:22.037 --> 00:09:26.037 It's a cookie with ice cream and this little tin or steel thing, 00:09:26.177 --> 00:09:29.557 whatever the pan is, Dutch oven kind of material. It was incredible. 00:09:29.937 --> 00:09:34.537 And I look at that as I got reps in at my own personal emotionally mature gym. gym. 00:09:34.697 --> 00:09:38.937 I was able to use those, sit with discomfort, recognize so many thoughts, 00:09:39.237 --> 00:09:41.737 tit for tat anybody, shut down, flee, you name it. 00:09:42.277 --> 00:09:48.157 And my wife even, absolutely, me assuming good intentions, even hit me with, 00:09:48.197 --> 00:09:52.057 you know, I feel like this happens a lot a bit later, to which then I once again 00:09:52.057 --> 00:09:56.037 wanted to go victim, prove her wrong, oh, well, tell me all the times. 00:09:56.277 --> 00:09:59.057 But I was was aware of that. 00:09:59.697 --> 00:10:04.397 And differentiation, anybody? Remember, differentiation is every single interaction, 00:10:04.557 --> 00:10:09.197 every thought and emotion is a quick pop quiz to help you become a better you. 00:10:09.277 --> 00:10:10.557 So I'll take that data in. 00:10:10.737 --> 00:10:14.417 Yeah, and you know what? It has happened a couple or more times over the past 00:10:14.417 --> 00:10:18.737 few years where I have purchased something for the wrong thing, a wrong hotel. 00:10:18.857 --> 00:10:23.837 That was in Reno, Nevada, where I purchased it for the wrong weekend. 00:10:23.877 --> 00:10:26.257 And we ended up finding a place to stay, and we made the best of it, 00:10:26.297 --> 00:10:27.517 but I don't know about a lot. 00:10:28.451 --> 00:10:31.491 But I don't even think that a four-pillared conversation about what a lot would 00:10:31.491 --> 00:10:33.891 mean would have been productive or mattered. 00:10:34.271 --> 00:10:36.711 I don't claim perfection anymore. 00:10:37.591 --> 00:10:41.351 So I just said, man, that is funny, isn't it? And to me, what it feels like 00:10:41.351 --> 00:10:46.731 to be me, it really did give me this opportunity to self-confront and grow and be better and do better. 00:10:47.151 --> 00:10:50.971 And it gives me a great story for the podcast. Now, maybe we can have a four-pillared 00:10:50.971 --> 00:10:54.371 conversation around the word great. But it is a story for the podcast. 00:10:54.931 --> 00:10:57.771 Now, a little bit more back to the theater. theater. Pazooki, yes. 00:10:58.311 --> 00:11:03.271 But they had a pretty incredible movie theater popcorn. I love it. 00:11:03.711 --> 00:11:08.811 And that leads us back to where the two letters that I read at the beginning of the episode today. 00:11:09.151 --> 00:11:12.271 Yeah, you're right. If you were thinking that we're going to talk a little bit 00:11:12.271 --> 00:11:14.551 more today about those popcorn moments. 00:11:15.151 --> 00:11:17.571 Because when I received the last email that referenced them, 00:11:17.651 --> 00:11:19.511 I searched for the word popcorn in my email. 00:11:19.631 --> 00:11:23.411 And I have dozens of examples of people saying, grabbing my popcorn, 00:11:23.611 --> 00:11:25.891 sitting back with my popcorn, watching the show of my narcissist, 00:11:25.891 --> 00:11:29.471 or my emotionally immature partner, try to get me to engage, pushing my buttons. 00:11:29.791 --> 00:11:34.511 So, and even later today, I'll be talking with a client whose personal aha moment 00:11:34.511 --> 00:11:39.151 came after listening to an earlier popcorn moment reference and an episode of 00:11:39.151 --> 00:11:43.891 waking up to narcissism because they were able to sit back as at that point, 00:11:43.911 --> 00:11:47.771 their wife tried everything to get him to engage and he didn't engage. 00:11:47.931 --> 00:11:52.031 And he said it was at that point that he realized it really didn't matter what 00:11:52.031 --> 00:11:56.291 he said, what what he did, that she was going to go in circles and try every 00:11:56.291 --> 00:11:58.151 different emotion to get him to engage. 00:11:58.271 --> 00:12:02.831 And when he didn't, then he saw that it really wasn't about whatever truth was, 00:12:02.971 --> 00:12:07.071 that she just needed him to get angry or to... 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.120 Validate her experience and ignore his own. 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:16.760 But he realized, no, it's okay. It was for somebody to pull out any and everything, 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.780 especially the things that he had shared with her at some of his most vulnerable 00:12:19.780 --> 00:12:21.480 moments to try and get him to engage. 00:12:22.040 --> 00:12:24.840 Because the narcissist or the incredibly emotionally mature, 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:28.860 if we're going to get down in the deep psychology weeds, needs another human 00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:31.460 to interact with in order to essentially know that they exist. 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:35.820 They operate from the false self, working on an an episode about that coming up soon. 00:12:36.300 --> 00:12:41.080 So they need their supply. But what they need their supply to do is react because it's that reaction. 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.160 That's what they know what to do with. They need to be able to tell you that, 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:49.640 oh, geez, calm down. I didn't say that. Or I can't believe you didn't know that. Or, oh, you did that? 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:53.620 Yeah, I did that when I was a kid. I did that so much earlier than you, so much better than you. 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:59.220 So today we're going to spend some more time talking about popcorn and gaslighting and button pushing. 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:03.300 So we'll get back to those first two emails. But even before Before that, 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:08.140 in searching for the word popcorn in my emails, I came across a poem by a long-time 00:13:08.140 --> 00:13:12.600 listener who has provided some wonderful insight that I had meant to read a 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.200 long time ago, but it had the word popcorn in it, so it came up in the search. 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.640 So I think that is fitting right here, right now. 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:23.360 So let me read that poem. Who am I? Where did I go? 00:13:24.160 --> 00:13:28.820 What do I like? I'm not sure I know. Looking back at times, it seems clear. 00:13:29.780 --> 00:13:34.300 Ignoring the signs has brought much fear. There are those brief moments of respite, 00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:36.300 a breath of hope that this could be it. 00:13:36.780 --> 00:13:39.040 Is change really happening now? Is it real? 00:13:39.620 --> 00:13:43.680 It's been so long to even know how to feel, but back into the cycle we go, 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.880 round and round like a jolly good show. 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.980 Popcorn moments come again and again. It makes me wonder, when is this to end? 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:56.240 I don't give the benefit of the doubt, or so it's said, with a very big pout. 00:13:56.860 --> 00:14:01.180 She'll just do what she wants to do, and I hang on to those nice moments, though few. 00:14:01.920 --> 00:14:07.580 As I wake up to this disturbing reality, it is I that feels my mind is full of insanity. 00:14:08.898 --> 00:14:13.338 Is it I? I ask all the time. Worry grows. She'd take my last dime. 00:14:13.878 --> 00:14:18.898 Do I deserve better? Tony says so. There's always more to do before deciding 00:14:18.898 --> 00:14:21.398 to go. What about the kids? What will they think? 00:14:21.878 --> 00:14:23.858 The gaslighting pushes me to the brink. 00:14:24.518 --> 00:14:29.458 PhD, you say? Can you have even more? My emotional baseline is higher than before. 00:14:29.978 --> 00:14:32.178 Now I am stronger and more emotionally mature. 00:14:32.758 --> 00:14:38.878 All I'm left with now is what is my future. I really do appreciate the poems. 00:14:39.218 --> 00:14:42.278 I appreciate the letters, the things that you send in. 00:14:42.738 --> 00:14:47.258 And there are a couple of people that actually wrote songs. And I realized that 00:14:47.258 --> 00:14:49.818 I have not done anything with those. 00:14:49.938 --> 00:14:55.398 And so if you have sent me a song, then please know that that is something that 00:14:55.398 --> 00:14:58.058 I really do want to add onto the podcast. 00:14:58.098 --> 00:15:00.518 So we'll get to those hopefully in the not too distant future. 00:15:01.018 --> 00:15:03.658 So now let me go back to those letters that I started with today, 00:15:03.818 --> 00:15:07.658 because I think now that we can see where we're going, they might sound a little 00:15:07.658 --> 00:15:11.078 bit different because now we're going to start talking about these popcorn moments. 00:15:11.118 --> 00:15:15.758 So that first one again, it was titled, when will I stop hearing their voice in my head? 00:15:15.858 --> 00:15:19.538 Hi, Tony. I've emailed a few times, but I thought this might be a good question for the podcast. 00:15:19.938 --> 00:15:23.398 I'm in the process of leaving my narcissistic or emotionally immature spouse. 00:15:23.718 --> 00:15:27.718 I have my PhD in gaslighting now and get my popcorn out as much as possible. 00:15:27.718 --> 00:15:31.578 But while I am getting better at sitting and watching and really trying to filter 00:15:31.578 --> 00:15:35.518 what they are saying, I still end up with their digs, their sentences echoing 00:15:35.518 --> 00:15:38.298 through my head, along with all the ones from previous years. 00:15:38.678 --> 00:15:41.038 Despite working on myself, really getting into groups with the truth, 00:15:41.118 --> 00:15:43.578 seeing their manipulation and. Yeah. 00:15:44.295 --> 00:15:46.655 That they are trying to push my buttons. No matter how hard I try, 00:15:46.815 --> 00:15:48.735 their voice and insults echo through my head. 00:15:49.115 --> 00:15:51.895 I feel like I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I do know, 00:15:51.995 --> 00:15:53.435 but it's still not enough. Any tips? 00:15:54.235 --> 00:15:58.575 So I really do believe that when you start to have a reaction, 00:15:58.695 --> 00:16:01.155 when you're getting to this good place, your emotional baseline's high, 00:16:01.215 --> 00:16:04.175 you got that PhD in gaslighting, you're trying to get out of these unproductive conversations. 00:16:04.395 --> 00:16:07.175 You now know what a healthy boundary looks like. 00:16:07.435 --> 00:16:12.015 And you recognize I cannot give them that aha moment or that epiphany. 00:16:12.015 --> 00:16:16.955 You're starting to be differentiated this is a me issue i can do and be i can 00:16:16.955 --> 00:16:23.575 i can hold that assertive frame i can just not react and i can just be and then 00:16:23.575 --> 00:16:27.395 all of a sudden here comes a new one here comes a new button why did that one 00:16:27.395 --> 00:16:29.115 resonate why did that one get me to react. 00:16:29.835 --> 00:16:34.975 And where this powerful shift starts to take place and i think that especially 00:16:34.975 --> 00:16:38.735 in this second message this one that's from the narcissistic women's facebook 00:16:38.735 --> 00:16:41.615 group you're in this really really good place. 00:16:41.755 --> 00:16:45.255 And why did this one resonate? Why did this button work? 00:16:45.455 --> 00:16:49.255 Why did I react? Because now I can, that this is going to, we're making that 00:16:49.255 --> 00:16:53.415 shift into what it feels like to be me as someone that is feeling pretty good about myself. 00:16:53.495 --> 00:16:56.815 I've done the work, but then I still find myself reacting. 00:16:57.175 --> 00:17:00.575 So now check that out. Nothing wrong with me. I'm not broken. I'm human. 00:17:00.855 --> 00:17:05.275 So now I can really step back and then I can take a look at why this button worked. 00:17:05.335 --> 00:17:08.895 Why when they pressed this one that I reacted the way that I did. 00:17:09.195 --> 00:17:12.695 So here's this other comment. Said to me today, if I am so horrible, 00:17:12.895 --> 00:17:15.695 why are you still here? This is from the husband. 00:17:15.955 --> 00:17:20.255 And then he says, everybody I talked to is so confused about this, even my therapist. 00:17:20.435 --> 00:17:24.295 And again, a little further investigation confirmed that it was his therapist 00:17:24.295 --> 00:17:28.175 who was confused, which then I would imagine, I don't know the situation, 00:17:28.335 --> 00:17:32.335 that his therapist has been given a very one-sided account of what's going on. 00:17:33.313 --> 00:17:36.373 So then she had responded, well, for one, we agreed to give it six months of 00:17:36.373 --> 00:17:40.533 commitment to marital counseling. And two, I've been a stay-at-home mom and wife for 20 years. 00:17:40.973 --> 00:17:45.573 She was so curious why that was said and why that bothered her. 00:17:45.893 --> 00:17:50.413 And again, it's because it did, because it bothered her. So we can now look at this with curiosity. 00:17:50.573 --> 00:17:54.353 Check this out. So I want to take a deeper dive now into popcorn moments. 00:17:54.753 --> 00:17:57.633 And I want to throw some additional information in there. 00:17:57.713 --> 00:18:01.373 And we're going to work my good friend differentiation in here as well, 00:18:01.473 --> 00:18:04.933 because I think that we can start looking at the popcorn moment itself, not just like this. 00:18:05.053 --> 00:18:10.533 Oh, this is a here's a quick side note, sit back and relax and eat your popcorn, watch the show. 00:18:10.573 --> 00:18:14.333 But let's talk about the power with bits within these popcorn moments. 00:18:14.613 --> 00:18:19.393 And if you're new here, imagine that you are in the theater of your own making. 00:18:19.973 --> 00:18:24.213 And so, yes, the spotlight is on the narcissist, the emotionally immature. 00:18:24.573 --> 00:18:29.073 And I'm just going to refer to them as the narcissist because it's less syllables. 00:18:29.193 --> 00:18:31.313 So therefore, I'm expending less emotional calories. 00:18:31.693 --> 00:18:35.393 So the spotlight, again, is on the narcissist in your life. And the show is about to start. 00:18:35.793 --> 00:18:41.053 Now you've set a boundary, you put a line in the sand, and they are not used to seeing that line. 00:18:41.233 --> 00:18:43.973 So what do they do? They're going to push it. so all 00:18:43.973 --> 00:18:46.873 of a sudden you are not just a spectator you're the director 00:18:46.873 --> 00:18:50.633 and you have called cut on the usual script and 00:18:50.633 --> 00:18:53.573 instead of then the scene ending this is where the popcorn 00:18:53.573 --> 00:18:56.293 moment kicks in because you have a front row 00:18:56.293 --> 00:19:02.273 seat to the unveiling of a performance like no other so you lean back maybe 00:19:02.273 --> 00:19:06.773 even with an actual bowl of popcorn in hand because the origin story of the 00:19:06.773 --> 00:19:12.233 popcorn moment had had someone that their parent had talked to them and it was 00:19:12.233 --> 00:19:15.233 a day or so after their birthday and said, hey, you never called me on your birthday. 00:19:15.353 --> 00:19:19.413 This is the parent saying to the adult child, you never called me on your birthday. 00:19:19.793 --> 00:19:26.233 And the adult child that was, say, the guy had been to the movies and had actual movie theater popcorn. 00:19:26.413 --> 00:19:29.013 And that was when they were doing this work on not reacting, 00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:32.573 not giving their narcissistic parent buttons to push. 00:19:32.813 --> 00:19:39.053 And so, between every act of the The show where I think they saw, you know, humor. 00:19:39.173 --> 00:19:43.253 Oh, I'm just joking. You know us. We joke to sadness. I'm such a bad person 00:19:43.253 --> 00:19:45.353 to anger. I cannot believe we're going through this. 00:19:45.653 --> 00:19:48.633 And then narcissistic medical exit. The person then just said, 00:19:48.713 --> 00:19:51.933 I'm having a heart attack. I'm having something. I got to leave. 00:19:52.273 --> 00:19:55.793 And the whole time they were literally eating movie theater popcorn. 00:19:56.033 --> 00:19:59.273 So there's that origin story. So you may have an actual bowl of popcorn in hand. 00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:04.280 And that scene unfolds. So the narcissist realizing their usual tactics aren't 00:20:04.280 --> 00:20:07.920 working, they start going through their mental toolbox for something, 00:20:08.060 --> 00:20:11.620 anything, any button they can push that will get a reaction out of you. 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:17.100 And it's like watching somebody just frantically search for these cheat codes 00:20:17.100 --> 00:20:19.660 after they've been playing the game on easy mode for a long time. 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.700 It's been really easy for them. They say something. Why didn't you call me on your birthday? 00:20:22.860 --> 00:20:27.280 And then I lose my stuff because I say, what are you kidding me? Nobody does that. 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.200 And then to the narcissist, they know what to do with that. oh wow, 00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:32.080 boy, you need to calm down. 00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:35.220 You definitely, you normally do call me and that's where the gas lighting comes in. 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.900 So they try every combo from crying while laughing and flipping a victimhood 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:42.300 to flattery with maybe a dramatic, 00:20:42.580 --> 00:20:47.300 I can't live without you thrown in there for good measure, whatever they try 00:20:47.300 --> 00:20:51.080 to get to work as you just calmly take in the next act. 00:20:51.620 --> 00:20:55.520 And with each failed attempt to get you to break or to engage or to fall back 00:20:55.520 --> 00:21:00.300 into that old familiar dance, they move move on to the next act and more accusations start flying. 00:21:00.560 --> 00:21:05.060 You're just ridiculous. I'm leaving. Or the classic, this is like arguing with a toddler. 00:21:05.340 --> 00:21:09.400 I'm out, which is ironic because it is like arguing with a toddler, 00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:11.000 only the other way around. 00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:14.000 And sometimes they might even pull at the heart strings with a, 00:21:14.020 --> 00:21:16.900 again, oh my gosh, I'm getting really dizzy, medical exit. 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:21.000 And I was fascinated by when the first time I talked about this, 00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:24.840 I got a lot of emails from people that said, said, I didn't know that was a thing. 00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:30.100 You know, this is a sudden onset of a mysterious debilitating pain that conveniently 00:21:30.100 --> 00:21:33.080 acts up in these moments of almost defeat. 00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:37.920 But the theme is almost always, I'm leaving. It's a line delivered with the 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.680 hope that that one might work, that finally this time it'll make you jump back 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:42.860 into the script. No, no, no, don't go. 00:21:43.340 --> 00:21:47.720 But then here is the twist in this play. When they've stormed off stage before 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.620 leaving you in silence, you might have been the the one to break the silence, reach out, apologize. 00:21:52.280 --> 00:21:56.340 But this time you just stayed seated, popcorn in hand. Wondering if there's 00:21:56.340 --> 00:21:59.820 any scenes like after the credits. I don't know if you're that person in the movies. I am. 00:22:00.860 --> 00:22:02.100 Because you're just fully aware 00:22:02.100 --> 00:22:06.640 that this is just another scene and their repertoire of manipulation. 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:12.240 So this moment, these powerful popcorn moments, they're important not just because 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:19.380 you're enjoying their discomfort, but because it symbolizes a big shift in the dynamic and in you. 00:22:19.820 --> 00:22:23.240 Because now you're seeing behind the curtain. You're starting to understand 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.220 the tricks and you've chosen not to play your part. 00:22:26.340 --> 00:22:28.820 And instead you watch and you learn and you protect your peace. 00:22:28.820 --> 00:22:33.860 And in doing so, you turn a moment of potential chaos into an opportunity for 00:22:33.860 --> 00:22:37.600 empowerment, for growth, understanding that the only performance worth investing 00:22:37.600 --> 00:22:40.320 in is the one where you are the star of your own life. 00:22:40.560 --> 00:22:43.520 You are the one that's writing a script. It's a script of resilience. 00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:44.460 It's a script of boundaries. 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:46.980 It's a script of self-respect. 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.820 And remember that popcorn moment 00:22:50.820 --> 00:22:53.740 is not about gloating in their struggle because i know 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:56.720 that most of you are going to be the pathologically kind people that are 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.360 having to to put this into action and it's 00:23:00.360 --> 00:23:04.100 so it's not you're not a sadist you're not a sociopath 00:23:04.100 --> 00:23:08.540 or but it's about recognizing the patterns and the manipulation and then choosing 00:23:08.540 --> 00:23:13.300 not to engage and it's really starts to become a testament of your strength 00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:16.880 and it's a sign that you are starting to move forward and eventually getting 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:22.320 beyond the reach of their games to get you back into this confusion-making machine. 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:27.320 And in the end, you are left with something that's far more valuable than a 00:23:27.320 --> 00:23:28.800 victory over a narcissist. 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:31.320 Because it's not about that. It's not about winning or losing. 00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:33.980 What you gain is your peace. 00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:39.400 It's your dignity and maybe even a newfound taste for movie theater popcorn. 00:23:39.620 --> 00:23:42.820 And if you don't like movie theater popcorn, we need to talk about that. 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:49.580 But that That popcorn moment comes from the work that you've done to set up for the big show. 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:56.480 And that is done by my, I named it, I want to take this name back maybe, 00:23:56.620 --> 00:24:01.200 my five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense. 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:07.680 Which again, number one is raise your emotional baseline, elevate that emotional gain. 00:24:07.820 --> 00:24:11.240 It's about self-care. And that is something that I think that we often don't 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.900 think is something that is necessary or that we even have time for. 00:24:16.040 --> 00:24:19.720 We put this on the sidelines a lot when we're dealing with the whirlwind that's 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.220 caused by the narcissists in our lives. 00:24:21.800 --> 00:24:26.520 But it's self-care. I mean, it's like running a marathon without training or 00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:29.600 without eating right. Matter of fact, very, very true story. 00:24:29.700 --> 00:24:32.080 The very first marathon that I ever ran. 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.580 And at this point now, I've been fortunate to run over 100 marathons and ultra 00:24:36.580 --> 00:24:40.360 marathons. The very first one that I ever tried to do, I think it might have 00:24:40.360 --> 00:24:43.700 actually been at the dawn of the internet. So I wasn't Googling things. 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.740 Maybe if there was an Alta Vista search engine at the time. 00:24:47.771 --> 00:24:50.371 I didn't know. Absolutely what I didn't know. I did not eat well. 00:24:50.731 --> 00:24:54.791 I actually didn't eat a lot for the two or three days leading up to it because 00:24:54.791 --> 00:24:57.711 I thought that I needed to feel light on my feet. 00:24:57.931 --> 00:25:00.691 And I didn't eat enough. And I crashed and bonked at mile 13. 00:25:00.851 --> 00:25:06.031 And I walked right into a Taco Bell that happened to be by the mile 13 with my race number on. 00:25:06.191 --> 00:25:09.871 And then I grabbed some sort of burrito, eat it, walk right out and throw up. 00:25:10.031 --> 00:25:14.731 So really, imagine without running that marathon, without training, without eating right. 00:25:14.831 --> 00:25:18.891 It is tough. But that's what it's like trying to tackle a narcissistic challenge 00:25:18.891 --> 00:25:20.771 without being kind to yourself first. 00:25:20.911 --> 00:25:25.831 And self-care is not about indulgence. It's your armor. It's not about going to the spa. 00:25:26.151 --> 00:25:30.891 It can be anything. It can be dreaming. It can be hitting the gym or choosing 00:25:30.891 --> 00:25:34.891 salad over fries sometimes if you're feeling crazy or just zoning out with your 00:25:34.891 --> 00:25:37.211 favorite book. book, but it's all about keeping your emotional tank full. 00:25:37.351 --> 00:25:40.431 So when you're faced with a narcissistic drama, you're ready to face it head 00:25:40.431 --> 00:25:45.211 on and not from a place of exhaustion or depletion, because I love this phrase, 00:25:45.371 --> 00:25:46.851 you can't pour from an empty cup. 00:25:47.491 --> 00:25:51.811 Now, the second thing is get your PhD in gaslighting. Gaslighting is, 00:25:51.971 --> 00:25:56.871 it comes from that 1940s thriller, but it is very much a modern day manipulation 00:25:56.871 --> 00:26:00.931 tactic because just picture somebody that is trying to convince you that the 00:26:00.931 --> 00:26:02.131 sky isn't blue, but it's green. 00:26:02.271 --> 00:26:05.871 And after enough repetition, you honestly start start questioning your own eyes, 00:26:06.091 --> 00:26:09.411 that's gaslighting. And it's a favorite tool in the narcissist kit, 00:26:09.491 --> 00:26:12.091 and it makes you doubt your memory and your perception and your sanity. 00:26:12.371 --> 00:26:16.471 But studies show that this can start to mess with your brain in a lot of serious 00:26:16.471 --> 00:26:20.131 ways, leading to things like anxiety and a whole host of issues, 00:26:20.251 --> 00:26:23.351 because you start to just doubt yourself in everything that you do. 00:26:23.451 --> 00:26:28.691 And this is part of that complex post-traumatic stress disorder, CPTSD, where your short. 00:26:29.551 --> 00:26:33.691 Your shirt is torn? No, your short-term memory, it starts to think, 00:26:33.731 --> 00:26:35.411 I'm no longer needed right now. 00:26:35.551 --> 00:26:38.071 And if things don't start in your short-term memory, they're not going into 00:26:38.071 --> 00:26:40.791 your long-term memory, but all that blood flow is going to your amygdala, 00:26:40.831 --> 00:26:42.271 to that fight-or-flight response. 00:26:42.791 --> 00:26:47.711 So, it can really cause some challenges to you staying present because your 00:26:47.711 --> 00:26:50.251 brain just says, get ready for the fight-or-flight response. 00:26:50.691 --> 00:26:53.911 Now, when you get out of a narcissistic relationship, then your brain, 00:26:54.031 --> 00:26:57.691 thank goodness, that wonderful neuroplasticity, it can heal. 00:26:58.611 --> 00:27:03.631 But this is why knowledge is such power that the more you know about gaslighting, 00:27:03.651 --> 00:27:05.471 the better you can just say, nice try. 00:27:05.651 --> 00:27:08.651 But I'm not buying what you're selling. I'm not picking up what you're putting 00:27:08.651 --> 00:27:12.651 down. That third rule is getting out of unproductive conversations. 00:27:13.171 --> 00:27:17.631 And I think that if you really start to recognize the gaslighting, 00:27:17.631 --> 00:27:21.691 then you see that it will lead to a debate that seems to go around in circles 00:27:21.691 --> 00:27:25.211 and you can't even stay on topic because you're trying to chase whatever the 00:27:25.211 --> 00:27:27.451 thing is that they're gaslighting you about. out. 00:27:28.231 --> 00:27:32.291 Especially you see this with somebody who refuses to see any perspective, 00:27:32.311 --> 00:27:33.991 but their own, they're not taking ownership of anything. 00:27:34.131 --> 00:27:38.231 That wasn't the case. They didn't do it. That becomes your cue to just gracefully 00:27:38.231 --> 00:27:43.731 bow out because arguing with a, argue with a narcissist, this is a so cliched, 00:27:43.751 --> 00:27:46.391 but it really is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. 00:27:46.671 --> 00:27:52.031 And after a while you realize the pig enjoys it and you're in the mud. 00:27:52.491 --> 00:27:55.591 So when you spot the the gaslighting or just sheer stubbornness, 00:27:55.611 --> 00:27:56.571 it's time to drop the rope. 00:27:56.751 --> 00:27:59.351 Don't waste your breath trying to prove that you're sane or right. 00:27:59.431 --> 00:28:03.211 It's not about giving up. It's about choosing where to invest your energy wisely. 00:28:03.931 --> 00:28:07.611 And now we're talking about boundaries next. You have to master that art of 00:28:07.611 --> 00:28:10.431 boundary setting. And I really think every chance I get, I want to talk about 00:28:10.431 --> 00:28:11.631 a boundary versus an ultimatum. 00:28:12.311 --> 00:28:15.411 Boundaries are, they act as your own set of rules. They outline what you're 00:28:15.411 --> 00:28:18.511 willing to accept and what you're not in your interactions with the world and 00:28:18.511 --> 00:28:21.111 how you respond to all the experiences that you're having in life. 00:28:21.771 --> 00:28:25.471 Boundaries usually have very little to do with anybody else because on your 00:28:25.471 --> 00:28:30.231 journey of becoming more emotionally mature and consistent, chances are you 00:28:30.231 --> 00:28:32.031 are going to want to set more boundaries. 00:28:32.251 --> 00:28:37.351 But it's easy to confuse the boundary with an ultimatum. A boundary is a you 00:28:37.351 --> 00:28:40.451 thing and an ultimatum, it's a them thing. 00:28:40.971 --> 00:28:45.171 But they often resemble, a boundary often resembles an if-then statement. 00:28:45.251 --> 00:28:47.951 For example, if you start yelling at me, then I'll leave the room. 00:28:48.031 --> 00:28:52.251 If you continue to tell me what I'm thinking or claim to know what I don't without 00:28:52.251 --> 00:28:55.471 asking me first, then I'll do something more productive instead of wasting my 00:28:55.471 --> 00:28:58.691 emotional calories on whatever this verbal dance is that we're doing. 00:28:59.091 --> 00:29:03.711 On the other hand, an ultimatum is something like, you need to stop telling 00:29:03.711 --> 00:29:06.291 me what I'm thinking because that's really about the other person. 00:29:07.145 --> 00:29:10.125 That you need to stop now i wish they 00:29:10.125 --> 00:29:13.005 would and i might even ask them to but it's different from setting 00:29:13.005 --> 00:29:15.965 a personal boundary and when you're looking at these times of 00:29:15.965 --> 00:29:18.785 emotional maturity we often take our triggers for example like somebody 00:29:18.785 --> 00:29:21.765 assuming that they know our thoughts and then we turn them into ultimatums you 00:29:21.765 --> 00:29:26.085 need to stop versus a boundary of if you don't stop then i will leave ultimatums 00:29:26.085 --> 00:29:31.525 often they're more about trying to avoid or get rid of our discomfort than setting 00:29:31.525 --> 00:29:36.025 healthy limits and we we typically give away our power if we rely on others 00:29:36.025 --> 00:29:37.885 to stop making us feel uncomfortable. 00:29:38.465 --> 00:29:41.805 We're saying, hey, you need to do this thing. I just handed you my power. 00:29:41.885 --> 00:29:44.685 And if you don't, then I'm still going to be angry. 00:29:45.405 --> 00:29:48.205 And because even the best people will eventually make mistakes. 00:29:48.385 --> 00:29:53.165 And then that will perpetuate our feelings of being misunderstood or unfortunately unlovable. 00:29:53.685 --> 00:29:57.225 So if we don't understand or if we don't love ourselves, how can we expect others 00:29:57.225 --> 00:29:58.705 to get it right or to love us? 00:29:59.345 --> 00:30:04.785 So remember a boundary, it can actually be a wonderful thing that is all about you. 00:30:04.925 --> 00:30:08.825 And boundaries are like, they're like personal policies that define what you're 00:30:08.825 --> 00:30:09.925 okay with and what you're not. 00:30:10.325 --> 00:30:13.705 So, those become crucial for maintaining your sanity in any relationship, 00:30:13.805 --> 00:30:15.045 but especially in one with a narcissist. 00:30:15.645 --> 00:30:19.185 You know, it is setting rules for a game where you get to be the referee. 00:30:19.385 --> 00:30:22.825 You're the one that gets to call the shots. It's not about controlling the other 00:30:22.825 --> 00:30:26.125 player, the narcissist, but it's about protecting your peace. 00:30:26.325 --> 00:30:30.725 Setting boundaries is a sign of emotional maturity because it shows that that 00:30:30.725 --> 00:30:33.805 you know your worth and you're not willing to compromise it. 00:30:34.505 --> 00:30:39.765 And then that fifth thing is you cannot give that other person the aha moment. 00:30:40.685 --> 00:30:43.925 Because it's a myth that we can give somebody else the aha moment. 00:30:44.025 --> 00:30:47.705 We've all hoped for that breakthrough moment when the narcissist suddenly sees 00:30:47.705 --> 00:30:49.265 the light and changes their ways. 00:30:50.125 --> 00:30:54.365 And I used to think I was pretty funny when somebody would say, 00:30:54.485 --> 00:30:57.625 and then I told him, you don't even recognize that this is what you're doing. 00:30:57.625 --> 00:31:01.765 And then I used to say, and then did he say, oh my gosh, I've never thought 00:31:01.765 --> 00:31:04.025 of that before. That is great insight. I'll never do it again. 00:31:04.665 --> 00:31:08.485 And then the person will look at me and say, no. And then I say, 00:31:08.525 --> 00:31:12.365 no, I know that's not what happened. Because again, you're trying to give that person the aha moment. 00:31:12.865 --> 00:31:15.925 Because the aha moment, if you're waiting for that, it's kind of like waiting 00:31:15.925 --> 00:31:17.985 for a unicorn to show up at your birthday party. 00:31:18.205 --> 00:31:21.125 It's a really nice thought, but it's unlikely. 00:31:22.065 --> 00:31:25.205 So the truth is, though, real change has to come from within. 00:31:25.205 --> 00:31:29.525 And you can't force someone to see what they're not ready or willing to see. 00:31:30.205 --> 00:31:33.785 So it's really important to manage your own expectations and understand that 00:31:33.785 --> 00:31:37.065 your energy is better spent on your growth and happiness. 00:31:38.239 --> 00:31:42.619 So now that those are in place, now come the popcorn moments. 00:31:43.479 --> 00:31:46.659 Because within those strategies, especially when setting boundaries, 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:48.759 that's when you'll encounter the popcorn moment. 00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:52.259 These are the times that you've laid down a boundary and now you get to watch 00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:54.639 the narcissist try every trick in the book to get you to engage. 00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:57.219 Instead of getting sucked back 00:31:57.219 --> 00:32:00.719 into the drama, you sit back again with popcorn and watch as they flail. 00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:04.399 And it's not about being cold or uncaring, recognizing patterns. 00:32:04.959 --> 00:32:07.979 It's about recognizing patterns and choosing not to play into it. 00:32:08.239 --> 00:32:12.819 They are powerful moments that help you start to recognize that you are shifting 00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:15.359 the internal landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be you. 00:32:15.899 --> 00:32:19.919 And that leaves a narcissist confused, bewildered, but more importantly, 00:32:20.019 --> 00:32:22.199 powerless to disrupt your peace. 00:32:22.939 --> 00:32:28.079 Because I will say that I'm asked often, what do you do if you do feel like 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:32.159 you are stuck within that relationship in an emotionally mature narcissistic relationship? 00:32:32.699 --> 00:32:35.419 And you're the only one that knows what it feels like to be you. 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.839 And so there is nothing that anyone can say or do to get you to then leave that relationship. 00:32:41.159 --> 00:32:45.659 What do you do? And let's go big here in closing on the concepts of differentiation, 00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:50.159 because you can be differentiated within any relationship. 00:32:50.979 --> 00:32:54.199 Because again, that differentiation is when somebody says something, 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.259 does something, and you have feelings, you react. 00:32:57.719 --> 00:33:01.679 If you really can step back and take a look at that as a, this is a me issue. Why am I frustrated? 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:06.279 Okay. The reason why is I do feel like I deserve to be heard and I deserve to 00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:10.639 be understood. understood or I feel like my own body is telling me that this 00:33:10.639 --> 00:33:13.359 is not safe. So why are you continuing to put yourself in this position? 00:33:13.679 --> 00:33:18.019 Then there's my work. My work is to learn how to set those boundaries. 00:33:18.139 --> 00:33:21.519 My work is to learn how to leave a unproductive conversation, 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.259 even if I am hearing more buttons pushing. 00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:28.639 And this is the last thing I'm saying is that, so there's your, 00:33:28.659 --> 00:33:32.719 there's your script, there's your homework, because I don't want anybody to 00:33:32.719 --> 00:33:36.799 have to live in that environment. But we're 100 and something episodes into 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:37.639 waking up to narcissism. 00:33:37.659 --> 00:33:41.239 And I think that those that listen often, and especially if you're still here 00:33:41.239 --> 00:33:45.139 on this episode, know that if only it were that easy to just set that boundary 00:33:45.139 --> 00:33:46.219 and say, I'll never do this again. 00:33:46.219 --> 00:33:48.719 So you can learn to be differentiated within the relationship, 00:33:48.899 --> 00:33:53.439 which I think then can raise your emotional baseline to a point where then you 00:33:53.439 --> 00:33:58.739 will have better tools or more information or more data to then know what to 00:33:58.739 --> 00:34:02.239 do next as your baseline of emotions grows higher and higher. 00:34:02.239 --> 00:34:05.259 And it is gonna come with new buttons being pushed 00:34:05.259 --> 00:34:08.179 which is the importance of the popcorn moment so again 00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:11.399 know that there is a potential for continued growth 00:34:11.399 --> 00:34:15.979 but we have to accept the fact that that growth might be I'm learning to not 00:34:15.979 --> 00:34:20.499 engage I'm learning to sit with discomfort and not be heard that is not ideal 00:34:20.499 --> 00:34:23.899 but if you feel like that is where you are right now or you're stuck in that 00:34:23.899 --> 00:34:28.799 relationship it gives you strategies to work on so that you can start to feel more empowered. 00:34:29.948 --> 00:34:33.288 Because you're not just surviving, you're learning how to thrive on your own terms. 00:34:33.368 --> 00:34:38.028 If you have grown weary of the word differentiation, then we can call this a 00:34:38.028 --> 00:34:39.728 day right now. Thank you so much for joining. 00:34:39.828 --> 00:34:43.688 But if not, sit back, relax, and let's talk about more differentiation. 00:34:43.928 --> 00:34:48.568 And I'm going to put it in the context of these five strategies that I often talk about. 00:34:48.748 --> 00:34:53.948 So as a reminder, differentiation then, especially in the context of personal 00:34:53.948 --> 00:34:58.348 development and and relationships, it is the process of defining yourself as 00:34:58.348 --> 00:35:02.348 an individual, separate from the opinions, the needs, and the behaviors of somebody else. 00:35:02.708 --> 00:35:06.488 And it helps you establish your own beliefs, your own values, 00:35:06.668 --> 00:35:10.988 your own boundaries, and learning how to maintain a sense of self while being close to others. 00:35:11.188 --> 00:35:15.848 And I think when this one clicks, it's a beautiful principle because then I, in essence, 00:35:15.928 --> 00:35:20.868 have to interact with others in order to then have feelings and thoughts and 00:35:20.868 --> 00:35:27.048 opinions that then I can work on to help me understand really who I am and what it feels like to be me. 00:35:27.328 --> 00:35:30.928 And now that can start from just dreaming. It can start from reading. 00:35:30.988 --> 00:35:32.768 It can start from watching and listening to things. 00:35:32.868 --> 00:35:37.108 And then as you go out and navigate the world around you and move away from 00:35:37.108 --> 00:35:41.308 being isolated, because typically that isolation comes from somebody that feels 00:35:41.308 --> 00:35:42.928 like what is wrong with me or I am broken. 00:35:43.228 --> 00:35:47.128 And then as you start to gain confidence and interact, then you do start to 00:35:47.128 --> 00:35:51.748 find a sweet sweet spot where the interactions, I know what my worth is. 00:35:51.828 --> 00:35:56.748 I know that I am lovable and I no longer have to beg somebody else to love me or see me. 00:35:56.888 --> 00:36:00.328 And so I will find those relationships and along the way I will find myself. 00:36:01.068 --> 00:36:06.408 So this becomes absolutely pivotal when navigating relationships with emotionally 00:36:06.408 --> 00:36:11.748 immature people or moving away also from patterns of people pleasing or codependency. 00:36:11.868 --> 00:36:16.348 So what I want to do now is talk about the concepts of differentiation and running 00:36:16.348 --> 00:36:23.688 those through the five foolproof formulas for navigating the narcissistic nonsense 00:36:23.688 --> 00:36:28.188 with that first one of raising your emotional baseline or self-care is not selfish, 00:36:28.328 --> 00:36:31.128 elevating your emotional game through self-care. 00:36:31.268 --> 00:36:35.428 Now, if you throw the differentiation aspect into here, then prioritizing your 00:36:35.428 --> 00:36:39.688 own self-care would be a foundational act of differentiation because it shows 00:36:39.688 --> 00:36:45.428 that you are recognizing your needs and well-being and emotional health as important 00:36:45.428 --> 00:36:49.428 Important and distinct from the other demands or criticisms of a narcissistic partner. 00:36:49.828 --> 00:36:53.208 And even as I say that, I can imagine some of the pathologically kind people 00:36:53.208 --> 00:36:55.988 saying, okay, but it just doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. 00:36:56.168 --> 00:37:01.648 And that is true. And this is where you get to learn how to grow through that kind of discomfort. 00:37:02.068 --> 00:37:03.908 And discomfort in the name of 00:37:03.908 --> 00:37:08.188 self-care is the best kind of discomfort to work with or to grow through. 00:37:08.937 --> 00:37:12.737 So by focusing on your self-care, then you start to tell yourself, 00:37:12.877 --> 00:37:16.917 which eventually is going to show others that your value and your worth are 00:37:16.917 --> 00:37:22.337 not contingent on somebody else's approval or on their mood, but they are inherent. 00:37:22.497 --> 00:37:28.757 They are inborn. They are God-given and you are deserving of being loved and 00:37:28.757 --> 00:37:31.297 feeling love and nurturing your own goodness. 00:37:31.897 --> 00:37:37.237 And then that second concept of get your PhD in gaslighting, 00:37:37.257 --> 00:37:41.017 if we throw the differentiation blanket over it, then educating yourself about 00:37:41.017 --> 00:37:44.697 gaslighting and becoming adept at recognizing it in action, again, 00:37:44.877 --> 00:37:47.897 is an exercise in differentiation because it means that you start to trust your 00:37:47.897 --> 00:37:51.917 own perceptions and memories over the manipulative narratives of somebody else. 00:37:52.277 --> 00:37:56.317 And that self-trust is a cornerstone of differentiation because it allows you 00:37:56.317 --> 00:38:02.197 to continue to maintain a foot firmly in reality, even if somebody tries to blur those lines. 00:38:02.437 --> 00:38:06.357 And this is why I talk so often about the mechanisms of memory or the fallibility 00:38:06.357 --> 00:38:10.737 of memory or confabulated memory because I'm not saying that I have some amazing 00:38:10.737 --> 00:38:12.257 memory. I'm saying that none of us do. 00:38:12.417 --> 00:38:17.577 And so when somebody else is questioning our memory, that is adorable because 00:38:17.577 --> 00:38:21.717 I don't necessarily trust my own memory, but I certainly don't trust the memory 00:38:21.717 --> 00:38:24.757 of someone else over me. And that does take practice. 00:38:25.397 --> 00:38:32.397 The third rule and the five foolproof formulas, I think I'm going to have to 00:38:32.397 --> 00:38:35.717 look for a different name because that That does not just flow right off of the tongue. 00:38:36.897 --> 00:38:41.037 But the third rule is getting out of unproductive conversations and cutting 00:38:41.037 --> 00:38:42.797 off the pointless or fruitless chats. 00:38:42.997 --> 00:38:46.857 So from a differentiation aspect, choosing to disengage from unproductive conversations 00:38:46.857 --> 00:38:50.437 with an emotionally immature narcissistic person continues to highlight your 00:38:50.437 --> 00:38:55.457 ability to differentiate your need for resolution or understanding from the 00:38:55.457 --> 00:38:57.597 narcissist's need to dominate or confuse. 00:38:57.777 --> 00:39:03.317 Because the longer you stay in that conversation, the more likely it is that you will feel confused. 00:39:03.997 --> 00:39:08.137 And it shows an understanding that you are a completely separate human being, 00:39:08.197 --> 00:39:13.017 a separate entity who does not have to be caught up in endless cycles of conflict 00:39:13.017 --> 00:39:17.417 and manipulation and just all of that confusion that gaslighting brings on. 00:39:17.957 --> 00:39:21.917 And that because you know now that doesn't serve anybody, especially not you 00:39:21.917 --> 00:39:23.597 or your sense of peace or well-being. 00:39:23.917 --> 00:39:28.517 And which leads to then the fourth of the five foolproof formulas, 00:39:28.697 --> 00:39:31.577 mastering the art of boundary setting, learning Learning how to set healthy 00:39:31.577 --> 00:39:36.017 boundaries, understanding a boundary versus an ultimatum, because from a differentiated 00:39:36.017 --> 00:39:37.377 aspect, setting healthy boundaries, 00:39:37.557 --> 00:39:42.877 it maybe is the most direct form of differentiation because it involves clearly 00:39:42.877 --> 00:39:45.437 stating what you will and will not accept. 00:39:46.306 --> 00:39:51.386 That is delineating the line in the sand where you end and the other person begins. 00:39:51.886 --> 00:39:55.526 And this separation, it's part of the becoming more emotionally mature. 00:39:55.706 --> 00:39:58.506 It's vital in moving away from people-pleasing or codependency. 00:39:58.686 --> 00:40:03.246 And it affirms that your feelings, needs, and comfort matter independently of 00:40:03.246 --> 00:40:04.866 anybody else's desires or demands. 00:40:05.186 --> 00:40:07.706 And if that still sounds a little bit uncomfortable, we'll get there. 00:40:07.966 --> 00:40:11.926 And then that last thing of you'll never give the other person the aha moment. 00:40:11.926 --> 00:40:14.746 This myth of the aha moment from a differentiated aspect 00:40:14.746 --> 00:40:18.146 accepting that you cannot force an epiphany or change 00:40:18.146 --> 00:40:21.566 in a narcissist or an emotionally immature person is actually 00:40:21.566 --> 00:40:24.766 a mature acknowledgement of differentiation because 00:40:24.766 --> 00:40:28.126 it recognizes that you are an autonomous individual 00:40:28.126 --> 00:40:31.006 but you also are not 00:40:31.006 --> 00:40:33.866 the center of the universe you have limits to your own influence 00:40:33.866 --> 00:40:37.206 especially over somebody else's capacity for self-reflection and 00:40:37.206 --> 00:40:40.366 growth and that is absolutely frustrating at times but 00:40:40.366 --> 00:40:43.646 that acceptance it will liberate you from just this 00:40:43.646 --> 00:40:46.806 exhausting endeavor or futile endeavor 00:40:46.806 --> 00:40:50.406 of trying to fix or save somebody who must choose 00:40:50.406 --> 00:40:53.206 to embark on that journey themselves and that is not 00:40:53.206 --> 00:40:56.826 a you issue if this person bless their heart honest 00:40:56.826 --> 00:41:01.806 to goodness if they didn't ever see that modeled in the home and if they truly 00:41:01.806 --> 00:41:05.966 don't know what they don't know the more that you're trying to get them to know 00:41:05.966 --> 00:41:11.286 something that they don't know at the detriment of your own self-worth is something 00:41:11.286 --> 00:41:14.926 that just is a waste of emotional time and emotional calories and energy. 00:41:15.566 --> 00:41:19.366 Let me go over a few more reasons why then now that you've got that concept 00:41:19.366 --> 00:41:22.626 of how differentiation fits into each one of these five foolproof formulas for 00:41:22.626 --> 00:41:25.246 navigating narcissistic nonsense. I said that without looking at notes. 00:41:25.926 --> 00:41:31.006 Then I think that things will maybe click and then we'll send you on your way to have an amazing week. 00:41:31.893 --> 00:41:37.293 But it's crucial for your emotional health because becoming differentiated, even in this scenario, 00:41:37.553 --> 00:41:41.873 it fosters a healthier emotional life where your self-esteem and your well-being 00:41:41.873 --> 00:41:45.173 are not excessively tied to the behaviors or the approval of others, 00:41:45.293 --> 00:41:47.813 especially somebody that doesn't have your best interest in mind. 00:41:48.593 --> 00:41:52.913 Autonomy. Differentiation allows you for greater autonomy in your life and it 00:41:52.913 --> 00:41:56.693 helps you make decisions and show up better in your relationships and especially 00:41:56.693 --> 00:41:57.713 with those that you care about, 00:41:57.713 --> 00:42:00.713 those that you love your children just those that that are 00:42:00.713 --> 00:42:05.833 saying i do see you at times and that enables you to pursue what truly fulfills 00:42:05.833 --> 00:42:10.273 and matters to you so if you again are a spiritual being if you are someone 00:42:10.273 --> 00:42:14.653 who believes that you do have a light within you then this allows you to let 00:42:14.653 --> 00:42:19.433 that light so shine when you are not trying to manage the time the experiences of other people, 00:42:20.093 --> 00:42:24.673 because that that is causing you to just continually question and doubt yourself 00:42:24.673 --> 00:42:28.173 And I can't even express what that feels like to be in a healthy relationship, 00:42:28.453 --> 00:42:32.433 a healthy adult relationship when you just get to do and be because that is 00:42:32.433 --> 00:42:36.053 where you are just interacting with the world and your partner with curiosity 00:42:36.053 --> 00:42:39.453 and you're having shared experiences and you're learning so much about yourself 00:42:39.453 --> 00:42:41.913 and it becomes just invigorating, intoxicating. 00:42:41.913 --> 00:42:47.693 And so that those healthier relationships, then that will reduce the likelihood 00:42:47.693 --> 00:42:52.393 of being enmeshed or codependent or losing yourself and the needs or the desires of others. 00:42:52.473 --> 00:42:57.793 And then when you are showing up for your partner, you are choosing them and they are choosing you. 00:42:58.540 --> 00:43:03.500 And this just gives you a tremendous amount of resilience because the more differentiated 00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:08.220 you become, then that builds up this resilience against manipulation and emotional abuse. 00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:12.760 So even if you do end up outside of the relationship where you were first enmeshed 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.160 and codependent, then you won't fall for that again. 00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:18.200 And so many people worry that their picker is broken when they get out of unhealthy 00:43:18.200 --> 00:43:22.780 relationships, but it is the process of becoming and being more differentiated 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:26.400 and more emotionally whole whole and with that baseline high, 00:43:26.580 --> 00:43:31.780 where now you will absolutely see those emotional abuse tactics coming from 00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:35.900 several miles away and will just not want to engage in those at all. 00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:37.380 You'll be able to trust that gut. 00:43:37.700 --> 00:43:41.320 And then the more you do that, it just fortifies your own sense of self and 00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:43.600 the reality of situations and relationships. 00:43:44.020 --> 00:43:48.640 So in essence, differentiation then is about becoming more of who you are, 00:43:48.680 --> 00:43:51.580 who you are intended to be, who you are put on this earth to be, 00:43:51.700 --> 00:43:56.240 who you hope to become separate from the pressure and influence of those around you. 00:43:56.320 --> 00:44:01.600 And it is just so crucial for anybody, but especially those navigating the complex 00:44:01.600 --> 00:44:04.920 relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people, 00:44:05.020 --> 00:44:07.700 because it will empower you to prioritize your well-being, 00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:11.320 respect your boundaries, and maintain your individuality. 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:16.440 Okay, so we've hit the what did we learn today segment of the podcast, 00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:17.300 and I'll make these quick. 00:44:17.580 --> 00:44:21.940 Self-care is a wonderful shield. It isn't just about wellness, 00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:26.420 it is a critical strategy for emotional survival in the face of narcissistic behavior. 00:44:26.840 --> 00:44:31.280 So ensuring that you are physically, emotionally, mentally fortified, 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:35.680 you are so much more equipped to handle manipulation and maintain your own sense of self. 00:44:36.080 --> 00:44:40.780 Next, I would say that it's so important to understand and have knowledge around 00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:44.800 boundaries as power, because the more that you understand the tactics used by 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:46.160 the narcissist or the emotionally immature, 00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:48.960 particularly gaslighting, and you learn how to 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:52.100 set these boundaries and they're not ultimatums it's not 00:44:52.100 --> 00:44:55.700 a you better it's that if you then i they not 00:44:55.700 --> 00:44:58.660 only protect you from manipulation but they help you start 00:44:58.660 --> 00:45:02.420 to figure out yourself they reinforce your autonomy and helps you remain grounded 00:45:02.420 --> 00:45:07.820 in your truth and your values and then good old differentiation it is it is 00:45:07.820 --> 00:45:12.040 also known as liberation the process of differentiation defining and asserting 00:45:12.040 --> 00:45:15.120 your identity your needs and your boundaries separate separate from other people, 00:45:15.200 --> 00:45:17.280 that is a tool of liberation. 00:45:17.460 --> 00:45:21.560 And it moves you away from the roles of people-pleasing codependency and helps 00:45:21.560 --> 00:45:26.380 you just be a more resilient person, have a greater sense of self that starts 00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:31.200 to thrive on autonomy and integrity, and you just start to gain confidence. 00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:37.380 But the biggest thing, I think, by far, is grab that popcorn. 00:45:38.303 --> 00:45:43.383 Honestly, because the concept of these popcorn moments, it starts to stand out 00:45:43.383 --> 00:45:46.763 not just as a method of coping, but it is that symbol of transformation. 00:45:47.263 --> 00:45:51.683 And so then all of these moments when you start to learn how to observe rather 00:45:51.683 --> 00:45:55.443 than to engage, that I think represents the pinnacle of growth. 00:45:55.723 --> 00:46:00.723 Because that's where you can start to really see the value of your own self 00:46:00.723 --> 00:46:03.663 work, your dedication to self care, you're setting boundaries, 00:46:03.743 --> 00:46:05.383 you're understanding manipulation and action. 00:46:05.523 --> 00:46:08.723 And it's in those moments that I think you start to realize your strength and 00:46:08.723 --> 00:46:12.363 your resilience and the distance that you've already traveled on this path of 00:46:12.363 --> 00:46:13.583 becoming differentiated. 00:46:13.823 --> 00:46:17.643 Because those popcorn moments, they're the things that can remind you that the 00:46:17.643 --> 00:46:20.363 best reaction so often is no reaction. 00:46:20.643 --> 00:46:24.763 And it gives you just that space to enjoy the show of attempted manipulation 00:46:24.763 --> 00:46:27.283 without letting it disturb your inner peace. 00:46:27.763 --> 00:46:31.443 And those popcorn moments teach you that despite the chaos that a narcissist 00:46:31.443 --> 00:46:35.423 tries to bring into your life, you have the power to choose tranquility, 00:46:35.523 --> 00:46:37.683 choose detachment, to just observe. 00:46:38.243 --> 00:46:41.023 And so as you navigate through these interactions, remember, 00:46:41.123 --> 00:46:42.323 keep that popcorn handy. 00:46:42.483 --> 00:46:45.363 After all, when it comes to dealing with narcissistic or emotionally immature 00:46:45.363 --> 00:46:49.503 behavior, it is so much better to be the one watching the movie than to be part 00:46:49.503 --> 00:46:53.223 of that drama or the horror or even the comedy in those movies because it's 00:46:53.223 --> 00:46:53.943 really not not that funny. 00:46:54.203 --> 00:46:59.903 And just think, every popcorn moment is a kernel of truth popping into your 00:46:59.903 --> 00:47:01.263 awareness. Sorry I had to do it. 00:47:01.923 --> 00:47:07.563 Helping you, I can't do this one, better understand yourself and the relationship 00:47:07.563 --> 00:47:10.263 you choose to assault or leave behind. 00:47:10.903 --> 00:47:13.803 I wish I could insert a groan, but I am grateful you were here. 00:47:13.923 --> 00:47:17.563 Have an amazing week and feel free to send in your examples, 00:47:17.683 --> 00:47:21.323 write, and I will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:28.862 Music.