Music.
Episode 105 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and excited to be here today.
We're going to talk about parents, not parenting, but parents.
Although I'm sure that we're going to be able to get some things out of today's
episode that might help with parenting, but we're going to talk specifically
about the impact that narcissistic or emotionally immature parents have on their kids.
And before I do that, I just highly encourage you to go to the link tree or
go to tonyoverbay.com and sign up for my newsletter.
And the newsletter comes out weekly. There's a lot of gems, a lot of nuggets
in there. And sign up for the Magnetic Marriage Marriage Communication course.
And go find my YouTube channel if you would be so kind. It's Virtual Couch Podcast.
My daughter Sydney and I have been doing these live relationship question and answers on TikTok.
And the response has been amazing. amazing, also just bizarre to see you get
15,000 people stop by a live event and there are a lot of people throwing all
kinds of random comments out there. And then there are a lot of really good comments.
And I just think the whole thing is fascinating. And Sid and I are interacting
and we're in real time and answering questions.
And those full videos are going up on my YouTube channel. So I'd love it if
you would stop by there and you can hit the old subscribe button If you would be so kind.
But today, I'm going to start with a letter that I just thought was so fascinating,
and they titled it The Narcissist Vaccine.
I think this will be perfect segue to get into what we're going to talk about today.
With parents, emotionally immature narcissistic parents. The person said,
Hi, Tony, I haven't listened to all of your podcasts yet, in all caps.
But in case you haven't visited, or if you ever revisit the topic of narcissist
immunity, here is my situation.
I hope it can help somebody and you are free to share it with your listeners.
And I have not tackled this concept because being completely honest,
I had not heard about the concept of narcissistic immunity.
If you are a longtime listener, and you're you might might hear the echoes or
underpinnings of there's nothing you will ever say or do that will cause that
narcissistic person to have their aha moment or epiphany.
This goes in a different direction. So I think this is really, really interesting.
The person said, my awakening started when my daughter started dating somebody
with strong narcissistic or borderline tendencies.
It took about a year of a therapist and me supporting her for her to leave the
relationship and so far she hasn't gone back.
The similarities between this boyfriend and my husband were undeniable.
That realization, in combination with a few weekends spent physically away from
my husband doing fun things with friends and family, an intense conversation
with my best friend about my marriage,
and a panic attack that led me to speak with a medical professional who then
questioned me on all life levels, leads me to poke around the podcast,
which led me to the virtual couch and then eventually to waking up to narcissism.
The backstory, my father is emotionally immature, and my mother is an emotional guru.
I love them both very much. I'm the middle child, and we were all raised Southern Baptist.
She said yes with all the 80s shame. Thankfully, we have reconciled that upbringing.
I just started back to therapy as part of a plan to prepare for the future.
She said I most likely will be leaving my marriage as my husband has very strong
narcissistic tendencies.
But what I recently realized after watching a YouTube video on narcissistic
immunity is that thanks to my mother and the tactics she modeled,
I feel like I have lessened the damage of these past 25 plus years.
I'm hopeful that through therapy, my children will also have these skills I
model and more importantly avoid situations like mine and make different choices.
What fascinates me is that the methods I learned from my mother,
meaning dealing with my father, have names.
Gray and Yellow Rock, Trauma Bond, Self-Love, etc.
Looking back, I feel like my mother taught me how to self-preserve and preserve my kids.
She sets boundaries and my father respects them. She does not tiptoe around his mood.
He can be brooding in the corner while we're all happily decorating cookies and we won't notice him.
She modeled and taught us to look away from him and at each other cross-eyed
so we wouldn't disrespect him by laughing when he acts like a child.
She taught me not to take things personally, to have a life outside the marriage,
to be independent, and to continuously develop myself and my confidence.
She modeled gray and yellow rock when needed, most importantly,
and she didn't let him distract her from providing us with what we needed.
Considering that divorce is not and would never be an option for my mother,
I can now see that she's an emotional mastermind who managed and taught slash trained?
My father to manage himself.
God bless her for doing that. I can't imagine how big of a heavy lift that was
and still is. I'm in absolute awe.
Now it finally makes sense why they never argued in front of us.
She must have known how toxic that would have been for us to witness.
It would have been pointless anyway, or most likely she just ignored his fussing
and just did what she wanted to do.
In retrospect, would I have preferred to grow up in a healthier your home?
Of course! And that's got an exclamation point.
But it is what it is. I just want people to know that if you cannot leave,
you have kids watching what you're modeling.
Then in the meantime, while you are there, please know if you start to follow
the methods to self-preserve and curb the harm, you might also be modeling emotional
maturity for your kids like my mom did for my siblings and me.
It's still not a good situation, and my kids and I still have a boatload of
work to do to unwind the effects that this mess of a marriage has caused.
But when I look back and truly see the emotional maturity that my mother passed
down to me, the gratitude I have is unmeasurable. I can't love her or thank her enough.
Thank you to the person who wrote that, because that takes a lot of courage
to put that out there and say, hey, you're welcome to share this.
But I think this is the right audience. And what I simply mean by that is that
if somebody is listening to this podcast, and especially we're on episode 105,
then they're already coming to the table knowing that if it was just as easy
to just leave a relationship that was unhealthy, then they most likely would have done it by now.
And a couple of things that I will bring, we'll call it gentle awareness to,
and this comes with the acceptance that nobody on earth knows what it feels
like to be her, the writer of this letter.
So if you're already listening and yeah, butting her, for example,
yeah, but did he really, meaning your dad, did you really respect the boundaries
or did they more learn to be consistent with their boundaries?
So he learned that it wasn't productive for him to try and push because he couldn't
get his narcissistic or emotionally immature fix that way. that he would need to find another way.
For example, I've been banging the drum a lot lately on the difference between
a boundary and an ultimatum because too often we set ultimatums thinking that
we're setting boundaries.
And the simple way to look at that is a boundary is a me thing.
If you do this, I will do this. An ultimatum is us saying you need to fill in the blank.
So let's say that somebody might think they're setting a boundary by saying,
when we make cookies, you need to go find something else to do.
Well, that's an ultimatum.
They're telling him what to do and then the narcissist will take that as a challenge.
Oh, you're telling me what to do, then I will do the opposite.
Like a kid when you tell them to share their toy, nope, they will not share
their toy and all of a sudden the toy that they didn't give two rips about becomes
their most specialist, favoritest toy in the entire universe.
So the boundary would be that if you don't find something else to do or if you
aren't talking nice or not bothering us while we make cookies,
then we will leave and go make them at my sister's house next door.
But then you also need to be prepared to follow through when you set a boundary
and know that the narcissist is still going to push because they are still going
to see that as a challenge.
But if you throw an ultimatum at them, then I mean, that's battle.
That is war at that point. And I acknowledge that the writer of this letter
did repeat the pattern by marrying her very own narcissist or emotionally immature person.
But at some point, just being completely honest, it sounds like her mom did
an amazing job with the acceptance that she was in the relationship with the
narcissist and she was not open to the concept of divorce and who has the right
to tell her, well, she should have.
But if that is what you are starting to process, then that is what you are starting to process.
So the kids then learn the tools necessary to survive in a relationship with
an emotionally immature narcissistic person, but they didn't see a healthy relationship
modeled, which then makes sense that she would find herself,
the writer, in a similar relationship as the one that she was most likely drawn to or familiar with.
So like the guy in high school or college who was interdependent and differentiated
wouldn't typically be on somebody like this's radar.
And I'm not saying this with judgment, just more of a, this is what you typically see.
Because somebody like that, again, he wouldn't be on her radar because that
would not feel familiar to her.
She might be more drawn to somebody who would, who might, and I'm quote,
air quoting, mess with her by teasing her in a subtly passive aggressive way that would engage her.
So an example might be the guy sees her at a library on campus and he might
say, say that you could use some help to which she might think,
oh, wait, attention from this male human being where a girl who grew up with
a secure attachment in childhood might say, nope, I'm good.
Where the insecure girl might say, I mean, maybe I guess because she's thinking
inside and like, I can't, I don't want to be rude to him. I don't want to make him feel bad.
And then to the securely attached girl, then this might be as subtle as no,
I'm good. Or what on earth makes you think that?
Do you actually even understand organic chemistry history with annoyance and
a little bit of that annoyance in her, then he might then mutter some negative
comment about her and then move on to somebody that is more willing to put up
with his brand of, I'll go back to air quote, humor.
Kind of like a, geez, relax.
I mean, I was just kidding. So a lot of people do feel a bit trapped or stuck,
or there are people that are saying, I'm going to figure this out.
And there are times where I talk about being able to differentiate,
meaning to be able to separate your thoughts and emotions and feelings from
those of the the person that you are in a relationship with in any relationship.
And I was speaking recently at an event where I think I actually ended up questioning
myself where if you're in a relationship that you feel you are stuck financially
and people around you are saying,
well, you just got to tell them and you just have to do what you have to do
and you just have to jump out there and be afraid, but do it anyway and all those things,
then that person doesn't know what your experience is.
So if you are here and you're starting to wake up to the emotional immaturity
in the relationship, maybe even a trauma bond or feeling trapped or stuck,
that it can be pretty overwhelming and scary.
So I think that this email goes to that concept of if you are accepting,
and this does not mean, again, acceptance doesn't mean apathy,
but it means to take in without defense in its entirety.
If I'm accepting the fact that this is where I am right now,
and I can't just assume magically that things will get so much better that I'll
be able to leave in the next couple of weeks or months or whatever that timeframe is. Yeah.
Then with that acceptance, now I can differentiate within the relationship.
When he or she, whoever the more emotionally immature person is,
loses their mind and gets really emotionally dysregulated and upset,
then I can practice my boundary of when you do that, then I will leave.
Or I will protect the kids. Or some of the episodes that I've done about co-parenting
with the narcissist can be done within the relationship,
where I am not going to make excuses for the emotionally immature parent's behavior
behavior and I'm going to ask the kid who's maybe the target of the emotional
immature parent of, hey, I'm here for you. Tell me what that's like.
That is hard. Instead of saying, oh, I'm sure mom or dad's just having a rough day.
So you can learn to differentiate within the relationship. But when I was speaking
at this event, I found myself then saying, but I know that the question that
some people have if they're not in that type of relationship is,
why on earth are you in the the relationship still or staying in the relationship.
And sometimes it is that process of not sometimes it is the process of needing
to figure that out yourself and learning the tools and putting those into practice.
And most likely people are still operating from a place of if I can change the
relationship enough, then the relationship itself will change, which is true.
Often, I think that people are hoping that that relationship change is one that
will then work out and you'll live happily ever after with that person because
then you can avoid a lot of the discomfort of things like divorce and separating
assets and all those things that, yeah, those are not ideal.
So, I love that she said, in retrospect, would I prefer to grow up in a healthier
home? Of course, because that is, I think that's one of the first questions that people ask.
Well, wouldn't you rather be in a better relationship or wouldn't you rather
be out of an unhealthy relationship? Yeah, it's not the first time that somebody's
thought of that before, but it's just, it's not that easy.
So I want to talk today about parenting, narcissistic parents.
And before I dive too deep into that, let's take a moment and talk about the
difference between a parent who would have full-blown narcissistic personality
disorder and one who is emotionally immature.
Because we're really talking more, I think, about the emotionally immature parent,
but then there are examples of a truly narcissistic parent.
A quick reminder of NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, is a mental health
condition and it is characterized by an inflated sense of importance,
a very deep core need for excessive attention and admiration,
and that does come with a whole package full of troubled relationships,
a lack of empathy for others, but behind this mask of incredible confidence
lies this fragile self-esteem that is still vulnerable to the very slightest criticism.
Narcissism so then their skin is paper thin and they
will lash out to defend their fragile egos so a
lot of times parents in that situation they have an overblown
sense of entitlement and they will manipulate or exploit their kids to
meet their needs and what will come out of that is showing very little empathy
and really little to no genuine interest in their child's life unless it serves
them as the parent and they're typically overly concerned with their image or
the image of the family or how their kids reflect on them well do you know how this would look for me.
So let's take a look at a, let's say you have a kid who excels academically
and they win some prestigious scholarship.
The narcissist parent would most likely view this achievement,
this is a reflection of my own superiority.
They would probably brag about it to everybody else, all their friends,
this is excellent genes in action or my incredible parenting is what is responsible.
And so then if the child tries to share their own struggles or actually the
fact that they put in the hard work that it took to win the scholarship,
the narcissistic parent is It's going to just overlook it, dismiss it,
overshadow those experiences,
instead focusing on them, the narcissistic parent, how this achievement benefits
their image. Now, let's look at emotionally immature.
So, if we just give a general vibe or definition there, emotional immaturity
in a parent, that would be characterized more by, it's an inability to deal
with the parent's own emotions or respond appropriately to the emotions of others.
So they are showing up immature and in
essence think of it like the a temper tantrum is is
close to the surface at any time and that can be even responding
to the emotions of their kids so yeah they might be self-centered
and that's where it can look like narcissism but it's not to that pathological extent
seen in narcissism where it's going to be pervasive in every single situation
that you encounter because to the emotionally immature parent they can be exhausting
because it goes back to that you never know what you're going to get so their
actions are going to be more about lack of emotional growth and lack of emotional
understanding than a deep-seated personality disorder.
So then these parents might struggle with their emotional regulation and they'll
be more reactive instead of being responsive.
And they're going to have difficulty understanding or sitting with the potential
discomfort of their own child's emotional needs.
So their kid might have been pushed to get this prestigious scholarship,
but they don't want to be a rocket scientist any longer. They want to go play in a band.
And that is going to make the the narcissist is going to just dismiss it altogether. Like, ridiculous.
No child of mine is going to be in a band.
But that's how clearly it's just a it's a it's an energy. It's a them thing.
But then the emotionally immature parent is going to lose their crap.
Are you kidding me? All the time and effort and energy I put in to and sacrifice
what I want to be doing to give you the opportunity to study to get this scholarship.
And now you're not going to go be a rocket scientist.
I can't even believe that. So now that emotional dysregulation causes the kid
to then say, no, you know what? It's I don't know what I'm thinking.
I'll do it. Yeah, of course. I want to do that. We go back to the same scenario,
though. The kid excels academically.
They win the scholarship. So the emotionally immature reaction,
then they and they might even react at first with excitement.
Well, all right, that sounds cool because that's the right thing to do.
But quickly, then it's, man, now I have to start worrying about all kinds of things.
College and I don't even you don't really have a car to get out that way.
And so it becomes about them, which sounds narcissistic, but it's really about
emotional immaturity. clarity. The narcissist will just figure it out later.
And then you get to the end. And then all of a sudden, they really didn't ever
say that. And you were supposed to get your own car or whatever that looks like.
And you figured it out. And then they get to say, and look how well you figured
things out because of me as well. I put you in that situation where you're able to thrive.
But that emotional immature person, again, the excitement, it can shift so quickly
to then, what does this do for me?
And that can fluctuate. It can go from bad to good, good to bad,
where, where, okay, now I have to worry about your college fees to, okay, but you know what?
This is so cool. I can't wait to tell all my friends my kid got into a great college.
But then they might struggle to provide emotional support or recognize even what the child needs.
And it's not because they're trying to exploit the thing for their personal
gain, but it's because they're unable to fully process or respond to their child's
emotional experience because they are continually going back and forth on what
they think and feel, and they're just throwing that out there at the child.
So one minute it really would be the, I am so proud of you, you've worked so
hard, and then the next minute is, I just don't know what I'm going to do.
I don't know how I'm going to, I guess I can take a second job.
Now the kid's going to feel bad and the parent now gets to then take that one-up
position and say, no, it's okay. I'm willing to do it.
That's what a good dad I am. While both the narcissistic and the emotionally
immature parents, you see that struggle to focus on their child's needs and
feelings, the key difference is really in intention and self-awareness behind
what they're saying and doing.
Because the narcissistic parent's behavior is far more self-serving and manipulative,
and that's a key word, while the emotionally immature parent's behavior is more
about a lack of emotional development, a lack of emotional control and understanding.
Let me tell you a finely curated tale about a person named Carl.
And Carl is someone that is almost begging for their story to be told.
They're a wonderful human being.
Carl and I have worked on putting some pieces together of their story.
And so today you're going to meet Carl and you'll probably hear back from Carl
in other episodes as well because there's a lot of fascinating things about Carl.
So of course Carl is not Carl's real name and some of the details have been
changed to protect the guilty as Carl likes to say hilariously.
But I think the phrase is supposed to be to protect the innocent.
Some of the details have been changed. So we'll call this person Carl and Carl
has become a clinical psychologist.
Psychologist and that is where a real quick rundown on
therapists psychologists psychiatrists they all walk
into a bar no i so i'm a therapist i have my master's
in counseling and then you do your internship you get
3 000 hours under your belt and you sit for licensing exams and then you operate
as a licensed for me marriage and family therapist there's my intern nate licensed
professional clinical counselor his wife marla who is just joining as a also
in that role i I literally just spilled water all over my computer keyboard.
So I will be right back.
Hey everybody, so that was really really interesting and I just had to leave
that in there because I just want to make a plug for mindfulness and meditation
because I wish I would have had my video on.
I rarely record without video on these days because I want to put clips up on
YouTube or wherever and I wish you could have seen that.
I literally knocked over a bottle of water onto my computer and keyboard and
it turns out I'm still wiping it. And I didn't realize it made it all the way
up onto my monitor as well.
And those moments are just, I just feel like they are such a testament to a
regular meditation or mindfulness practice.
Because I was not this guy years and years ago.
I would have gotten really upset and I would have probably wanted to complain about it.
But that definitely just happened. And I do wonder if I would have watched my
computer go up in flames or smoke or something, if that would have been a little
more difficult to notice that and just be in due.
But yeah, that happened. And we're back. And I lost some time.
But what an experience. What a joy that was. was.
So I think I was just talking about the therapist, the psychiatrist,
and the psychologist walking to a bar.
Oh, and Carl. So there we go. So Carl is a clinical psychologist.
That's somebody that has their doctorate in psychology.
And so then they can do more than I can do. They can do what I can do,
but then they can also run a battery of assessments and exams,
psychological testing.
They may work for the court or they may work in more clinical settings or environments
or hospitals, you name it.
And a psychiatrist is a full-blown medical doctor who goes to medical school,
but then they can prescribe medication.
So, we're talking about Carl.
Carl is a clinical psychologist, and he likes talking about his own childhood
experiences with a very narcissistic mother and what he calls an emotionally
absent or emotionally immature father.
And Carl specializes in emotional abuse.
And he says it's in part due to his own childhood experiences.
So, when you look at his perspective as a clinical psychologist,
then he is far more able to understand emotional abuse.
Because through his professional training and his personal experience,
he has a very deep understanding of the nuances of emotional abuse having experienced those himself.
And so then he starts to recognize the long-term impact of growing up with a
narcissistic mom, and then we'll just say an emotionally immature dad.
And that does help him have more empathy for his patients.
I call mine clients, he says patients. But his personal history enables him
to empathize profoundly and to really be able to feel and share some of those
experiences that some of these people are going through.
And so then he understands the complex emotions, the struggles that his patients
face, and that helps make him a more compassionate and effective therapist.
So let's talk though about his mom. And I think this is really fascinating.
And we've done a little bit of a deep dive here is that he says that his mom
often sought attention even when he was young.
And then throughout high school and college, he now realizes she listened very little to Carl,
but she would often then tell Carl about her experiences of what she was going
through when she was in college like he is or how the teachers loved her or
she basically would end up teaching And whatever it was,
or when she would ask a question, it was simply to then just launch into,
he might give a one or two word answer, but then she would launch into one of
her own stories, which ultimately took Carl through.
He says heroic story after heroic story, where everyone learned that she was
incredible and that they were not.
And they were all grateful that she came into their lives. And he said even
to this day, she continues to regularly belittle or disregard his feelings or
achievements unless they add to her own sense of importance.
One of my favorite Carl lines is that she has told him that she is the reason
that he became a psychologist, to which he says confidently, yes, mom, yes, you are.
Now, the impact that it had on Carl, growing up, he often felt more like an
extension of his mom rather than his own individual person, and he definitely
wasn't allowed to explore or even have out loud his own needs or his own hopes or desires or dreams.
So Carl struggled with his own self-esteem issues, and he really only felt valued
when he met his mom's expectations or met her needs.
And he looks back now and he said it really didn't matter what he was going through.
It was going to be an opportunity for her to lecture him about what he did wrong,
to which, and it's true, she probably felt like that was the way to be a good
parent because he said that that was definitely how she was parented.
That essentially that as a parent, that was what you did.
You tell stories that you have confabulated into legendary tales of success,
which he she says for the record, cannot be backed up.
And he talked about one time being in her old hometown and they went to the
school, the high school to look up the school records that his mom talked about
only to discover and looking through old yearbooks that she actually hadn't
participated in sports for the high school at all.
So now just a really quick pause. I think this is almost sad because to me as
somebody that works with this population, then I can only venture a guess that
that Carl's mom never felt like she was enough with her parents, Carl's grandparents,
and possibly was never actually allowed to play high school sports.
So I would hazard a guess that she has then turned a slowly but surely growing
narrative that had she been able to join the track team in high school,
then no doubt she would have been fast. How fast?
Well, if she would have been able to be coached and had the right support,
probably faster than anybody on the team or even in the the area, the land, the state.
And then I did float this one out to Carl one time when we were just talking
loosely because his mom often refers to the 1976 Olympics.
So then he, let's say that she watches the Olympics one day,
discovers that the world record in the 1976 Olympics, which I looked up,
was 11.04 seconds for the 100 meter dash.
So then in her mind, well then that means she probably could have run under
12 seconds if she would have been given the chance because Because here's the
crazy thing about confabulation, you can almost see how somebody gets there.
That they tell themselves the story to almost make up for the fact that they
didn't have supportive parents.
And this is happening deep in the subconscious.
And then it becomes the memory. They create the memory.
And so that memory that would be that, man, if I would have got to run in high
school, then I'm sure I would have been the fastest around.
And if that would have been the case, then obviously I would have made it to
the Olympics and I probably would have ran this time.
So then that means, because what's happening is then the memory,
every time that they pull that memory out, it gets packed and confabulated with
new memories that make them better and better and all these other details.
And that's why you run into some pretty big tales that people tell about their
high school, their college days.
And then they're so detailed because this person has filled in all the details.
You know, you find that the truly immature narcissistic person won't remember
one thing, but then another thing, they remember it to a T, every single detail about it.
And often that is a sign of that confabulated memory. memory.
So they create that memory. Then every time they recall it, fill it in with
more and more of the things that probably would have happened if it had gone
the way that they wish it would have until one day it did happen.
So then a quick Google search, and I want to see if she would have been running
sub 12 seconds in 1976 in high school.
And let's just say that she for sure would have been in line for some Olympic
running if that would have been her time back then.
And then here is what is so fascinating about narcissists and emotional immaturity.
So the more that the narcissist shares these stories, well, people eventually
then either don't say a word because what's the point?
And then the narcissist puts that memory back away as, well,
that definitely happened because people were just so enthralled and enamored by my story.
So then that memory is strengthened. And then if you do disagree,
well, now they'll engage because if you are disagreeing, then that means you
think you're right and you think they're wrong.
And then therefore you must now be made to take the one down position or to feel dumb.
And then that's done by the narcissist or the emotionally immature as
if it's as if they're just breathing air now they
go to by way of anger or manipulation or gaslighting or
victim status or you name it which is why ultimately people
end up going no contact with the narcissist because it because contact fuels
the narcissist and sometimes that really does break my heart because they have
to have another individual to interact with to make them feel like they matter
they can't just be or be curious or hear somebody else's perspective because
they were never modeled that behavior People were not curious about them.
And now it's as if they're so fragile that if you really look deep into their
soul and then pointed out these inconsistencies, then that means you are going
to abandon them and they will die.
They must be this special and this amazing. And in order to do so,
then you must be one down to make sure that they know that they are better than you.
Because that's what they're looking for. And that is why they often raise either
similar kids or highly sensitive kids or kids that find themselves in relationships
similar to their own kid parent dynamic with somebody who is, we'll say,
big and loud and decisive and who takes action, but still doesn't take ownership.
So back to the story of Carl, and we'll just take a look from his mom's perspective.
She might believe that she was doing what was best for Carl,
not recognizing her behavior as harmful.
Because in her view, her actions might have been justified as pushing Carl to
achieve more or ensuring that the family maintained a certain image that her
son was going to go on and get his doctorate. yes, now he is Dr.
Carl, but yet she has never taken the time to understand that the type of doctor
that Carl is cannot prescribe medication or perform a surgery.
And if somebody is having a problem on an airplane and they say,
is there a doctor in the house?
He needs to tell her, mom, I'm not going to just go ask the person who's passing
out. Hey, how are you feeling right now?
Any trauma from your mom? Like me?
So yes, Carl is successful now, but again, it is in spite of his mom, not thanks to his mom.
And then if we bring Carl's dad into the mix, Carl's father likely struggled
with emotional regulation.
He was really unable to provide emotional support or guidance,
and he just often just reacted impulsively, or he would withdraw at times of stress.
And when dad was stressed because of work, or later Carl really wonders because
of interacting with his mom,
then his dad retreated to working late or spending a lot of of time with his
friends in a man cave or going out doing his own activities,
but truly disengaging from the family.
So when Carl would interact with his dad, his dad was dealing with so much of
his own stuff in life that he just never really had the time or took the time
to truly get to know Carl. And Carl has felt that his entire life.
He said it's actually been emotionally freeing for Carl to let go of that need
for his dad's approval to get to this place where Carl just has to know or learn
that he is enough, that he's okay.
Because Carl always struggled with feeling like he was, or he would always let his dad down.
But a lot of that is because he honestly received little to no feedback from his dad.
So he was left to guess. And as we covered in the past, thoughts just left to
their own don't often lead to, but I'm sure everything was okay.
I am enough and my dad loves me, even though he's never said it.
And there's the criticism coming from him has no, no effect on me.
Because here's where that concept of whole object relations comes back into play.
And working with Carl, we've helped Carl learn how to see his dad as an entire person, a whole person.
That he would never be able to thank his dad enough for, he said,
was providing financially for the family and working hard.
Because he knew his dad had an incredible work ethic, which again,
now he wonders if that was because it wasn't necessarily as comfortable to be at home.
But the financial stability is what has helped Carl achieve a lot of his own
early stability in his life, which is what he needed in order to do all of his
schooling to get to the point where he is now. So he appreciates that.
And while he has also been sad and angry and frustrated and disappointed, he's also grateful.
And he also realizes that his own dad didn't know what he didn't know.
And there is barely any talk going on today about
emotional neglect or attachment issues in general so
he knows that his that those weren't topics of
conversation when his dad was a young father or
even just a father to teenagers that his dad probably wasn't learning things
and then actively plotting to not use them with his own kids or family so what
becomes really interesting i think this is uh you hear jokes a lot that therapists
get into therapy to work on themselves most therapists think, no, I didn't.
But I bring this story up because Carl recognizes now that he got into the field
he's in because of his childhood experiences.
And little did he know that he would be really good at what he does because
he has empathy for what others are going through.
And I recognize myself that I can only speak truly to the things that I have
been through. I can read you textbook things.
This is why one of the areas I don't focus a lot
on is eating disorders or disordered eating because I
have not had a problem with that or it is
pretty it's really fascinating to me when people
have the the body dysmorphia or they see themselves in a different light than
what you know I see in front of me but boy if we want to talk about emotional
immaturity narcissistic traits and tendencies anxious attachment getting rid
of shame just being and doing learning to be present learning to be curious
mindfulness meditation building that pause in,
then I can speak to these things because they just, they resonate with me because
of my own lived experience.
So then Carl's background gives him an incredible set of unique insights into
the dynamics of people who have been through emotional abuse and neglect.
Because Carl understands the subtleties of how different forms of what he calls
parental inadequacy can affect the child's entire developmental process.
And so then he finds personal healing through his professional work,
helping others who have had similar experiences, it can be therapeutic for Carl.
And it allows him to process his own past and use it to foster a deeper connection with his patients.
And so he says that, yeah, in this scenario, absolutely. His career choices
is so deeply influenced by his.
That his understanding of the impact of having a narcissistic mom and emotionally
immature dad allows him to connect with and support his patients in a really
profound and empathetic way that isn't just learning about something in a textbook
and then trying to share that with other people.
So I think that that is just so interesting and it speaks volumes then to how
we can still learn or show up differently from an emotionally immature or narcissistic parent.
But then the question is often, why do some people show up in a way where they
go into maybe a mental health field, and then somebody else goes down a path
where they just continually are looking for more and more and more validation,
but it's coming from this hole deep inside of them that they feel like they
can never ever fill, but they aren't even aware that they can't because they
are continually trying to fill that hole.
And back to my own experience, I was one of those who said, oh,
no, I'm not getting into this field to work on myself. I dig myself.
I'm awesome. Just ask me. But then going through this process year after year
after year, you start to just pick up and recognize the traits that people are
struggling with or going through and realizing, oh, man,
thank goodness that I found this career path because it really has helped me grow as a person.
And then I feel like that is all I want to do is share and help other people.
And in the vein of pure transparency, what I want to go through is a list of,
I think I have almost 10 of these traits or ways that emotionally mature narcissistic
parents negatively impact their kids.
And this is just something I've had on a Google document for a long time,
and I never put where this came from.
And I know it came from some article that somebody had sent me,
and I googled certain words and phrases, and I could not find the article to
give the proper attribution.
So if someone ever says, wait a minute, I wrote all those things,
then please reach out to me, and I would love to give you credit for this article
because I thought it was really good.
So how narcissistic parents can negatively impact their kids.
The first way is self-centeredness. so imagine
if somebody is always focused on themselves like they're the main
character in a movie then everybody else is just playing a
side character or a supporting cast because that's
how narcissistic parents often act that they're so
wrapped up in their own world that they don't have much emotional energy left
for their kids and they don't even know that they aren't making it about the
kids because more often than not they are simply modeling the behavior that
they witness that this is all that they know that the parent does make it about
themselves because Because that's just what the parent does,
that they don't even know that the goal to create a secure attachment with your
kid is to first go toward your kid. Tell me more. What's going on for you?
What's that like for you? And if I want to then tell you that,
well, don't do that, or, well, here's what I used to do when I was your age, those are me things.
And that's me, in essence, treating my kid like a little emotional support animal.
And I'm wanting validation from my kid because I didn't get it from my own parents.
And I don't know how to get that from other adults my age.
There's a story that comes to mind that I swear I spent more time trying to
find this story than recording or putting this whole podcast together,
but I think it's so worth it.
But it's from the Angela Duckworth book, Grit, which is a really fascinating book.
But in the book, she tells a story about Jeff Bezos, the Amazon founder's mom named Jackie.
So from the book, Jeff Bezos' mother Jackie watched with great curiosity to
what interested her children.
She said, I was just so curious about these little creatures and who they were
and what they were going to do.
I paid attention to what interested each one and they were all different and followed their lead.
I felt it was my responsibility to let them do deep dives into what they really enjoyed.
Jeff was always inventing things and trying new things, breaking things and fixing them.
So she says, do we as parents let them bloom into a world-class problem solver?
Jackie Bezos tells of how she was sitting with a friend and Jeff comes up and
tells her, And I think in the book, this was when he was maybe 10 or around that age.
And she tells her all about some scientific thing.
And Jackie's friend asked if she understood what Jeff was saying after he left.
And Jackie's response was, oh, it's not important that I understand everything.
It's important that I listen. And I thought about that example so often where
if I felt immature or insecure and I didn't understand what my kid was talking
about, then if you're really immature, then you think, well,
that means they think they're smarter than me.
So then I need to let them know, you know what, that stuff's ridiculous.
You're not going to do anything with that when you grow up anyway.
Or, well, I think that's dumb and you should be doing something else because
then the parent has made it about them. him.
Because kids need a lot of attention and love to grow up feeling secure and
good about themselves, but a self-absorbed parent struggles to give enough of that.
So this can leave a kid feeling insecure and doubting themselves and unsure
about how close they should get to others.
And it can really start to play a role and mess with how they see themselves.
So a second example of how narcissistic or emotionally immature parents can
impact kids is the concepts around grandiosity and then living vicariously through your kid.
Because if you think about parents who are overly obsessed with power or looking
good to others, then they might see their kids as a way to boost their own image,
especially if the kid is super talented.
Now the downside, if the kid is really good at something, they might become
an extension of that parent's ego.
If the kid isn't meeting these high expectations, then they could face a harsh
treatment from the parent.
And this is one of those situations where you just see a lot of parents that
are just really, really driving their kids almost, well, not even almost into
the ground to perform better, to try harder,
to work more with a lot of times with regard to sports is one of the easiest things to take a look at.
And these situations are tough because they can really mess with the kid's emotional
growth, either making them feel like they're just a a part of their parent,
or it leaves them just feeling absolutely rejected if they don't measure up.
And man, true, vulnerable, honest confession here.
My son had a full ride basketball scholarship and not long ago had decided,
and I'm so proud of him now for making this decision because it was a him decision
that he said he didn't want to play anymore. And this had been a big part of his identity.
And I realized I felt this front and center and talk about the concepts around
differentiation of things being a me thing.
I loved seeing him play. I enjoyed the attention he received locally.
I loved saying that he had a full ride basketball scholarship.
I loved watching him play. I couldn't wait to watch him play more.
I loved when he chased down the scoring record. It is over a hundred year old high school.
I loved wearing the gear. Now, what is that a lot of?
I, I, I, I, there is so much of me going on there that then that is a me issue
to not just Just say, tell me what that's like. Tell me more.
Because I have to realize if I'm trying to force him to do something that he
no longer wants to do, that has been a long time in the making.
So other things, I'll go through some of these pretty quickly.
The lack of proper care and responsiveness.
Narcissistic parents often don't really get other people's feelings,
especially their kids, because they might only pay attention to their kid if
it somehow benefits them.
If you have had a conversation with an emotionally immature narcissistic parent,
and even if they They do ask what's going on and you start to explain.
I can't tell you the number of times I've had conversations in my office with
people that say, I mean, my mom, my dad, they literally start just looking at
their watch or their phone or you can just see them get irritated or agitated or almost anxious.
Like I, okay, I asked a question. I really want to, I don't want to hear anything.
This has nothing to do with me.
And this lack of sensitivity, it will really start to hinder a kid's emotional
development because then they will start to feel emotionally starved because
they're not going to continue to go to that well.
Because then if the parent says, so what have you been up to?
At some point, the kid's just going to say, not much. So the parent says, oh, okay, cool. Good.
Makes the parent feel better. And the kid just says, what does it matter?
I can't open up to you anyway.
And then that can absolutely play out into other relationships where either they can be a lot.
They can almost be emotionally overwhelming to a new
partner because they so desperately want to be heard or they
show up completely withdrawn or avoidant as
an avoidant attachment style because they feel like
well what does it matter anyway i'm never heard a couple of other things impatience
with what i call normal kid behavior if a parent is super concerned about their
own image then they might not handle typical kid misbehavior well they get really
easily frustrated and they might respond harshly because they think that their
kid's behavior reflects on them badly.
You guys need to not embarrass me when we are going out to eat.
Instead of just knowing that a kid is going to be and do loud and do crazy things
when you go out to eat and they are your kids.
It's your family. It's your situation. It's your dynamic.
If somebody else takes offense, well, then that's really a them issue.
Now, I'm not saying that you're running up on top of the tables and throwing
french fries all over the place because that's an attachment to need just screaming
out loud there, hey, look at me.
But that impatience with normal kid behavior, then it will often lead kids to
feel like they have to be perfect. And that's a huge burden.
And that can lead to a whole lot of issues like anxiety, our kids being too
hard on themselves, or back to the withdrawing from others.
Overbearing control. Narcissistic parents often need to control everything.
Love or control in a relationship, which one? Not both. both so they're constantly
directing and coaching and criticizing.
And once you really see this, it's so hard to unsee it because you just see
it's almost like the parent just exists by telling the kid, hey, sit up. Don't do that.
Don't say that. Look straight ahead. And the kid just all of a sudden feels
like I'm literally just sitting here being and I'm doing it wrong,
which that breaks my heart to see that internalized.
I see a kid internalize that, that my simple existence is apparently not the right way to do it.
So now I really do need somebody to tell me if I'm okay, and I need somebody
to tell me if I'm saying the right thing or doing the right thing.
And that is almost a recipe to get into an unhealthy relationship with an emotionally
immature narcissistic person who is more than happy to tell you what to do and
what to say and how to feel and think.
And let me go into a little bit of a deep dive on this next one.
It's the concept around struggling to love the real child or to really see the kid as who they are.
So imagine a parent who can't really love their kid just as they are because
narcissists and emotionally immature parents so often have this issue.
They can't give that full unconditional love that kids really need if the kid
is making them uncomfortable with who the kid is.
An ADHD kid, a highly anxious kid, a kid who maybe doesn't do the things that
the parent always thought that their kid would do.
So then instead, the parent's love comes with conditions like only showing affection
when the child meets their expectations.
And this can make a kid feel like they're not good enough as they are,
leading to feelings of being unlovable and an entirely just internalized negative
view of themselves. selves.
So let me give you a specific example that I have actually seen play out on multiple occasions.
And this is one where a father and son, where the father will just say that
he was a decent or maybe even a really talented or good high school athlete.
And so he seems to have a fixed image on what he wants his son to be,
which is an athlete just like the old man.
But this expectation overshadows his ability to appreciate and embrace his son's
genuine interests, which in this case and in a few have been something like music.
So the father, he's disinterested in music and the son's passion for music is
a crucial part of his identity.
That's what he thinks about. That's what he watches on TV, on YouTube.
He plays anything that he can. He actually has a real natural talent for instruments,
even though they don't even have a lot of instruments in the house.
But every time he tries to share this interest with his dad,
he's met with absolute indifference or a real lack of enthusiasm.
And this can be seen in instances where the son talks about a new song that
he's hearing or learning or some music event that he wants to even just go see at school.
And in a couple of situations, it's where the kid actually wanted to play an
instrument in a band and the parent said, the dad said, oh no,
no kid of mine is going to play in a band because that's during whatever track
and field season or baseball season.
And so the father, if he even does respond, is with very minimal interest or
then changes the subject back to sports, which leads to forced involvement in
sports. And don't get me wrong, I loved sports.
I did. I also would have loved to play a musical instrument,
but I love sports. I really did. They did a wonderful thing for me as far as
self-esteem and identity.
But so despite his lack of natural talent or interest in sports,
in this scenario, it's a son who keeps trying different sports to try and connect with his dad.
And so he, every season, he's trying everything from soccer and baseball and
flag football and basketball and you name it.
And he's driven by this hope of winning his dad's approval or his attention.
But unfortunately, his efforts in sports are, quite frankly, mediocre.
And then it leaves him feeling very frustrated. frustrated and his dad with
not a lot of good things to say and his dad just insisting on he needs to be better.
So then the dad who was absolutely unable to go deeper and see his son's true
self and his interests pushes him continuously to excel in sports,
signing him up for extra coaching and sending him to camps and just expressing
disappointment at his performance, always talking on the way home about how
bad the guy did during the game and just ways to improve.
And then the kid, desperate for his dad's attention, is trying,
but that just isn't something that he really cares about.
And so the son's lack of enthusiasm or success in sports then is viewed by dad
and the kid as a problem to be fixed, not an indication that maybe this isn't
his true interest or passion.
So the emotional consequences for the kid, then the son in his desire for a
connection with his dad starts to feel real deep feelings of inadequacy,
rejection, and he continually fails to excel in sports.
You couple that with his dad's lack of interest in the kid's musical talents,
and the kid absolutely now feels like he is not enough, or that his true interest
of what he wants to do must not really be that important or they're unworthy
of his attention or time.
This starts to develop into a negative self-concept and a feeling that he is
not truly loved for who he is,
but he is only going to be loved if he does what others want him to do.
Which if we're talking long-term impact over time, this dynamic leads to deep emotional rifts.
So the son starts to withdraw from trying to even connect with his dad or he
might suppress his musical interest and just continue to be mediocre and pursuing sports.
And in the long run, it absolutely impacts his self-esteem. How could it not?
Not. And his willingness to pursue his passions, he's putting those to the side.
And he lacks this understanding of what a healthy, supportive relationship would
look like, which unfortunately could still be modeled with his own kids someday.
So in that situation, the father's inability to appreciate and nurture his son's
true self, his love for music, is such an example of the struggle to love the kid authentically.
And that just shines a big old spotlight on the emotional toll that a kid goes
through when a parent's love and acceptance are conditional is.
Okay, so we've just got a couple more ways that the narcissistic or emotionally
immature parent can impact their kids.
Emotional roller coaster at home. Narcissistic parents, they are like a volcano
that is just ready to erupt. Very unpredictable and explosive.
Very inconsistent, emotionally inconsistent. So then their overreactions,
their emotional outbursts, those make the home feel just unsafe.
It can feel kind of like a minefield rather than a safe place.
And so kids that grow up in that kind of environment, it starts to just change
their whole relationship with emotional safety or security or trust.
Because if they feel like they are always on edge trying to see what am I walking
into, where are the landmines, then what they're not doing is just being and
doing, not just being a kid.
They're trying to read a parent's emotions and then what do I need to do to
calm the mood in the room?
And when that plays into what it feels like
to be them their attachment issues come up and so are
they the peacekeeper do they come in and they need to be a perfectionist
do they need to have perfect grades are they the comedian but it's whatever
they're trying to do to manage the emotions or the the overall vibe in the home
and so that can really make it hard for them to stay or even know what an emotionally
balanced sense of self is.
And so this could lead to them having some struggles with anxiety or just the
way to cope, just the way to show up in a relationship when they get older.
Let's talk about twisting reality. Because if you think about somebody who always
sees things through the lens that suits them, even if it means distorting the
truth, good old confabulation, they have to create the narrative that makes sense to them.
And that is at the price of the truth at times.
So narcissistic parents, that's one of the things that they do often.
That is the gaslighting.
That it can't be that the parent was at fault.
It has to be that, well, the kid never reminded them. Or if the kid wouldn't
have done that, then the parent wouldn't have had to respond the way that they did.
And just changing the reality. And so often you see examples where a parent
might say, hey, we never lie.
But then the doorbell rings and all of a sudden the parent is saying,
tell them we're not home.
And the kid is trying to figure out, wait, I'm curious of how this all works.
But then they can't express that because then they're going to be made,
just do what I said, or you don't understand, or basically tell them to suppress
their feelings or their emotions.
Narcissistic parents might not be great at helping their kids understand
their true strengths and weaknesses or giving them
a realistic view of the world and then that leads to kids developing a skewed
and often negative view of themselves and not being great at making sense of
the world around them which thing can impact the way that they make decisions
or they're seeing modeled over and over again in just the smallest of things
that it we can skew the truth we can skew reality a little bit.
But then we sure seem to double down on that truth.
And so then it must be the way that the world works because these are my parents.
This is what I'm seeing them do.
Just a couple more here. Lack of empathy. It is really tough when a parent can't
really tune in to how their kid is feeling.
And this is again, where if we're
looking at narcissism versus emotional immaturity, they can look the same.
But narcissism can be, I just don't, in essence, have time for your feelings
because what's in it for me and emotional immaturity can be,
I can't handle your feelings as a kid.
So you need to knock it off, calm down, be quiet to where the narcissistic parent is.
I'm not even going to, I'm not aware of these things. I have things that I have
to do, but both of those show up as a lack of empathy and narcissists and emotionally
immature people do struggle with empathy, which means they might not respond
to their kid's emotional needs appropriately.
And then growing up without really feeling understood and seen and heard and
having Having no one be curious about you and not feeling supported can lead
to issues of your own with trust, forming close relationships,
and at times being sensitive to others' feelings.
And then at other times, you will be oversensitive to others' feelings.
And last but not least, just how the impact that a narcissistic parent can have
on modeling unhealthy relationship patterns.
Because they often model a kind of love that is about control.
It's about imbalance, keeping someone just slightly off so that you can maintain
that control rather than mutual respect and care and curiosity and who are you
and developing you into your very best self, not the person you are.
Best self for the parent to make them look better or the best self for the parent
to make it easier for them.
And then so kids in these families, they might end up feeling like they are
there to meet their parents' needs.
And I think I've got a couple of videos out that talk about how they become,
in essence, their parents' emotional support animals.
It's like they almost need to wear a vest and when they go to the store,
you know, hey, don't touch him. He's working.
He's He's validating me right now, and he's supporting me in all the things
that I'm doing. Isn't that right, son and or daughter?
Yep, you're right, mom and dad. You guys are awesome. So they're emotional support
animals, not making it more about the kid.
And that sets them up for a pretty rough time in their own relationships,
because then they most likely are going to repeat those unhealthy patterns without even realizing it.
When we go back to the letter that we started with today, I love everything
about it. the narcissist vaccine, but I can really appreciate too where she's
saying, would I have liked it to have been different? Absolutely.
But she didn't know what she didn't know.
So here we are. And if you are someone that is coming into this awareness or
waking up to your own narcissistic or emotionally immature behaviors or relationships,
or you are in one of these relationships.
Then I really hope that as you hear these things, you don't think,
oh my gosh, I'm horrible.
I'm I'm creating this, I'm doing this to my kids because the reality is we're
all going through this for the very first time.
And here you are. And you've, again, if you make it to the end of one of these
podcasts, you are doing the work and you are becoming more aware and just start
to start to internalize these things in a good way.
Because now you're starting to make more sense of things. You're a little bit
more aware and it's still going to be hard to implement or put things into action until it's not.
It's a process, a slow, gradual process, sometimes way too slow.
Much slower than we would like.
But you're going to get there. You just keep on doing, keep on being.
You didn't know what you didn't know. Now you know it, not necessarily doing
it, or maybe you're already to the point where you're doing it more than you don't.
But eventually you will become and you will be that emotionally consistent person
that is taking Take an action on the things that matter.
And that is what will lead your kids into that promised land of secure attachment.
And if you have adult kids, never too late.
You can, it sounds self-serving, right? Share this episode with them.
But you're going to figure this out. Anyway, thank you so much.
You can reach out if you have questions, thoughts. I love your examples.
I really do. If you want to be part of the Women's Private Facebook group or
now the men's course, the men's group. group, it may start before the next one
of these episodes is released.
So men, reach out to me as well at contact at tonyoverbay.com and have an amazing
week and we'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.