WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040 Music. 00:00:04.882 --> 00:00:09.302 Episode 105 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:09.382 --> 00:00:12.802 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and excited to be here today. 00:00:12.922 --> 00:00:17.222 We're going to talk about parents, not parenting, but parents. 00:00:17.422 --> 00:00:20.302 Although I'm sure that we're going to be able to get some things out of today's 00:00:20.302 --> 00:00:24.122 episode that might help with parenting, but we're going to talk specifically 00:00:24.122 --> 00:00:30.182 about the impact that narcissistic or emotionally immature parents have on their kids. 00:00:30.742 --> 00:00:34.222 And before I do that, I just highly encourage you to go to the link tree or 00:00:34.222 --> 00:00:36.622 go to tonyoverbay.com and sign up for my newsletter. 00:00:36.862 --> 00:00:40.682 And the newsletter comes out weekly. There's a lot of gems, a lot of nuggets 00:00:40.682 --> 00:00:44.482 in there. And sign up for the Magnetic Marriage Marriage Communication course. 00:00:44.782 --> 00:00:49.322 And go find my YouTube channel if you would be so kind. It's Virtual Couch Podcast. 00:00:50.202 --> 00:00:55.162 My daughter Sydney and I have been doing these live relationship question and answers on TikTok. 00:00:55.322 --> 00:01:01.022 And the response has been amazing. amazing, also just bizarre to see you get 00:01:01.022 --> 00:01:06.102 15,000 people stop by a live event and there are a lot of people throwing all 00:01:06.102 --> 00:01:09.722 kinds of random comments out there. And then there are a lot of really good comments. 00:01:09.882 --> 00:01:13.522 And I just think the whole thing is fascinating. And Sid and I are interacting 00:01:13.522 --> 00:01:15.882 and we're in real time and answering questions. 00:01:16.042 --> 00:01:19.562 And those full videos are going up on my YouTube channel. So I'd love it if 00:01:19.562 --> 00:01:23.622 you would stop by there and you can hit the old subscribe button If you would be so kind. 00:01:23.742 --> 00:01:28.782 But today, I'm going to start with a letter that I just thought was so fascinating, 00:01:28.942 --> 00:01:31.522 and they titled it The Narcissist Vaccine. 00:01:31.662 --> 00:01:35.502 I think this will be perfect segue to get into what we're going to talk about today. 00:01:36.282 --> 00:01:40.302 With parents, emotionally immature narcissistic parents. The person said, 00:01:40.402 --> 00:01:43.742 Hi, Tony, I haven't listened to all of your podcasts yet, in all caps. 00:01:43.962 --> 00:01:48.522 But in case you haven't visited, or if you ever revisit the topic of narcissist 00:01:48.522 --> 00:01:50.842 immunity, here is my situation. 00:01:51.242 --> 00:01:54.522 I hope it can help somebody and you are free to share it with your listeners. 00:01:54.662 --> 00:01:58.222 And I have not tackled this concept because being completely honest, 00:01:58.362 --> 00:02:01.502 I had not heard about the concept of narcissistic immunity. 00:02:01.922 --> 00:02:07.242 If you are a longtime listener, and you're you might might hear the echoes or 00:02:07.242 --> 00:02:10.062 underpinnings of there's nothing you will ever say or do that will cause that 00:02:10.062 --> 00:02:12.662 narcissistic person to have their aha moment or epiphany. 00:02:12.862 --> 00:02:15.742 This goes in a different direction. So I think this is really, really interesting. 00:02:15.942 --> 00:02:19.302 The person said, my awakening started when my daughter started dating somebody 00:02:19.302 --> 00:02:21.802 with strong narcissistic or borderline tendencies. 00:02:22.002 --> 00:02:25.702 It took about a year of a therapist and me supporting her for her to leave the 00:02:25.702 --> 00:02:27.582 relationship and so far she hasn't gone back. 00:02:27.822 --> 00:02:31.062 The similarities between this boyfriend and my husband were undeniable. 00:02:31.062 --> 00:02:35.502 That realization, in combination with a few weekends spent physically away from 00:02:35.502 --> 00:02:39.242 my husband doing fun things with friends and family, an intense conversation 00:02:39.242 --> 00:02:40.882 with my best friend about my marriage, 00:02:41.062 --> 00:02:45.342 and a panic attack that led me to speak with a medical professional who then 00:02:45.342 --> 00:02:49.942 questioned me on all life levels, leads me to poke around the podcast, 00:02:50.002 --> 00:02:54.002 which led me to the virtual couch and then eventually to waking up to narcissism. 00:02:54.622 --> 00:02:58.922 The backstory, my father is emotionally immature, and my mother is an emotional guru. 00:02:59.242 --> 00:03:03.242 I love them both very much. I'm the middle child, and we were all raised Southern Baptist. 00:03:03.522 --> 00:03:07.782 She said yes with all the 80s shame. Thankfully, we have reconciled that upbringing. 00:03:08.744 --> 00:03:12.844 I just started back to therapy as part of a plan to prepare for the future. 00:03:13.144 --> 00:03:16.484 She said I most likely will be leaving my marriage as my husband has very strong 00:03:16.484 --> 00:03:17.444 narcissistic tendencies. 00:03:17.824 --> 00:03:21.424 But what I recently realized after watching a YouTube video on narcissistic 00:03:21.424 --> 00:03:24.304 immunity is that thanks to my mother and the tactics she modeled, 00:03:24.444 --> 00:03:27.904 I feel like I have lessened the damage of these past 25 plus years. 00:03:28.124 --> 00:03:31.784 I'm hopeful that through therapy, my children will also have these skills I 00:03:31.784 --> 00:03:36.804 model and more importantly avoid situations like mine and make different choices. 00:03:36.804 --> 00:03:40.744 What fascinates me is that the methods I learned from my mother, 00:03:40.884 --> 00:03:43.324 meaning dealing with my father, have names. 00:03:43.524 --> 00:03:46.444 Gray and Yellow Rock, Trauma Bond, Self-Love, etc. 00:03:46.824 --> 00:03:50.984 Looking back, I feel like my mother taught me how to self-preserve and preserve my kids. 00:03:51.364 --> 00:03:55.524 She sets boundaries and my father respects them. She does not tiptoe around his mood. 00:03:55.704 --> 00:03:59.624 He can be brooding in the corner while we're all happily decorating cookies and we won't notice him. 00:04:00.164 --> 00:04:04.104 She modeled and taught us to look away from him and at each other cross-eyed 00:04:04.104 --> 00:04:06.744 so we wouldn't disrespect him by laughing when he acts like a child. 00:04:07.064 --> 00:04:10.304 She taught me not to take things personally, to have a life outside the marriage, 00:04:10.464 --> 00:04:14.684 to be independent, and to continuously develop myself and my confidence. 00:04:14.964 --> 00:04:17.804 She modeled gray and yellow rock when needed, most importantly, 00:04:17.984 --> 00:04:21.104 and she didn't let him distract her from providing us with what we needed. 00:04:21.644 --> 00:04:24.764 Considering that divorce is not and would never be an option for my mother, 00:04:24.904 --> 00:04:29.864 I can now see that she's an emotional mastermind who managed and taught slash trained? 00:04:30.304 --> 00:04:32.204 My father to manage himself. 00:04:32.684 --> 00:04:36.824 God bless her for doing that. I can't imagine how big of a heavy lift that was 00:04:36.824 --> 00:04:38.784 and still is. I'm in absolute awe. 00:04:39.104 --> 00:04:42.104 Now it finally makes sense why they never argued in front of us. 00:04:42.184 --> 00:04:45.024 She must have known how toxic that would have been for us to witness. 00:04:45.264 --> 00:04:49.164 It would have been pointless anyway, or most likely she just ignored his fussing 00:04:49.164 --> 00:04:50.844 and just did what she wanted to do. 00:04:51.084 --> 00:04:54.244 In retrospect, would I have preferred to grow up in a healthier your home? 00:04:54.344 --> 00:04:56.504 Of course! And that's got an exclamation point. 00:04:56.964 --> 00:05:00.724 But it is what it is. I just want people to know that if you cannot leave, 00:05:00.904 --> 00:05:02.864 you have kids watching what you're modeling. 00:05:03.284 --> 00:05:06.604 Then in the meantime, while you are there, please know if you start to follow 00:05:06.604 --> 00:05:10.804 the methods to self-preserve and curb the harm, you might also be modeling emotional 00:05:10.804 --> 00:05:14.844 maturity for your kids like my mom did for my siblings and me. 00:05:15.649 --> 00:05:19.689 It's still not a good situation, and my kids and I still have a boatload of 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:23.029 work to do to unwind the effects that this mess of a marriage has caused. 00:05:23.309 --> 00:05:26.609 But when I look back and truly see the emotional maturity that my mother passed 00:05:26.609 --> 00:05:31.069 down to me, the gratitude I have is unmeasurable. I can't love her or thank her enough. 00:05:31.249 --> 00:05:33.809 Thank you to the person who wrote that, because that takes a lot of courage 00:05:33.809 --> 00:05:36.869 to put that out there and say, hey, you're welcome to share this. 00:05:37.309 --> 00:05:40.929 But I think this is the right audience. And what I simply mean by that is that 00:05:40.929 --> 00:05:45.089 if somebody is listening to this podcast, and especially we're on episode 105, 00:05:45.309 --> 00:05:49.749 then they're already coming to the table knowing that if it was just as easy 00:05:49.749 --> 00:05:53.789 to just leave a relationship that was unhealthy, then they most likely would have done it by now. 00:05:53.789 --> 00:05:57.729 And a couple of things that I will bring, we'll call it gentle awareness to, 00:05:57.849 --> 00:06:01.509 and this comes with the acceptance that nobody on earth knows what it feels 00:06:01.509 --> 00:06:03.249 like to be her, the writer of this letter. 00:06:03.609 --> 00:06:07.389 So if you're already listening and yeah, butting her, for example, 00:06:07.509 --> 00:06:11.709 yeah, but did he really, meaning your dad, did you really respect the boundaries 00:06:11.709 --> 00:06:15.229 or did they more learn to be consistent with their boundaries? 00:06:15.469 --> 00:06:19.369 So he learned that it wasn't productive for him to try and push because he couldn't 00:06:19.369 --> 00:06:24.029 get his narcissistic or emotionally immature fix that way. that he would need to find another way. 00:06:24.069 --> 00:06:27.909 For example, I've been banging the drum a lot lately on the difference between 00:06:27.909 --> 00:06:31.529 a boundary and an ultimatum because too often we set ultimatums thinking that 00:06:31.529 --> 00:06:32.229 we're setting boundaries. 00:06:32.489 --> 00:06:36.769 And the simple way to look at that is a boundary is a me thing. 00:06:37.209 --> 00:06:42.249 If you do this, I will do this. An ultimatum is us saying you need to fill in the blank. 00:06:42.709 --> 00:06:45.389 So let's say that somebody might think they're setting a boundary by saying, 00:06:45.489 --> 00:06:48.309 when we make cookies, you need to go find something else to do. 00:06:48.509 --> 00:06:49.769 Well, that's an ultimatum. 00:06:50.049 --> 00:06:53.489 They're telling him what to do and then the narcissist will take that as a challenge. 00:06:53.789 --> 00:06:56.109 Oh, you're telling me what to do, then I will do the opposite. 00:06:56.189 --> 00:06:59.729 Like a kid when you tell them to share their toy, nope, they will not share 00:06:59.729 --> 00:07:03.949 their toy and all of a sudden the toy that they didn't give two rips about becomes 00:07:03.949 --> 00:07:07.489 their most specialist, favoritest toy in the entire universe. 00:07:07.929 --> 00:07:12.029 So the boundary would be that if you don't find something else to do or if you 00:07:12.029 --> 00:07:16.669 aren't talking nice or not bothering us while we make cookies, 00:07:16.789 --> 00:07:19.889 then we will leave and go make them at my sister's house next door. 00:07:19.889 --> 00:07:23.689 But then you also need to be prepared to follow through when you set a boundary 00:07:23.689 --> 00:07:27.289 and know that the narcissist is still going to push because they are still going 00:07:27.289 --> 00:07:28.189 to see that as a challenge. 00:07:28.349 --> 00:07:31.629 But if you throw an ultimatum at them, then I mean, that's battle. 00:07:31.929 --> 00:07:35.349 That is war at that point. And I acknowledge that the writer of this letter 00:07:35.349 --> 00:07:39.489 did repeat the pattern by marrying her very own narcissist or emotionally immature person. 00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.769 But at some point, just being completely honest, it sounds like her mom did 00:07:42.769 --> 00:07:46.949 an amazing job with the acceptance that she was in the relationship with the 00:07:46.949 --> 00:07:51.569 narcissist and she was not open to the concept of divorce and who has the right 00:07:51.569 --> 00:07:53.029 to tell her, well, she should have. 00:07:53.873 --> 00:07:58.413 But if that is what you are starting to process, then that is what you are starting to process. 00:07:58.673 --> 00:08:02.833 So the kids then learn the tools necessary to survive in a relationship with 00:08:02.833 --> 00:08:06.833 an emotionally immature narcissistic person, but they didn't see a healthy relationship 00:08:06.833 --> 00:08:09.733 modeled, which then makes sense that she would find herself, 00:08:10.033 --> 00:08:15.473 the writer, in a similar relationship as the one that she was most likely drawn to or familiar with. 00:08:15.853 --> 00:08:20.713 So like the guy in high school or college who was interdependent and differentiated 00:08:20.713 --> 00:08:23.153 wouldn't typically be on somebody like this's radar. 00:08:23.433 --> 00:08:27.793 And I'm not saying this with judgment, just more of a, this is what you typically see. 00:08:28.013 --> 00:08:32.793 Because somebody like that, again, he wouldn't be on her radar because that 00:08:32.793 --> 00:08:34.233 would not feel familiar to her. 00:08:34.433 --> 00:08:38.833 She might be more drawn to somebody who would, who might, and I'm quote, 00:08:38.873 --> 00:08:44.713 air quoting, mess with her by teasing her in a subtly passive aggressive way that would engage her. 00:08:44.813 --> 00:08:48.553 So an example might be the guy sees her at a library on campus and he might 00:08:48.553 --> 00:08:51.413 say, say that you could use some help to which she might think, 00:08:51.433 --> 00:08:55.473 oh, wait, attention from this male human being where a girl who grew up with 00:08:55.473 --> 00:08:59.233 a secure attachment in childhood might say, nope, I'm good. 00:08:59.753 --> 00:09:03.633 Where the insecure girl might say, I mean, maybe I guess because she's thinking 00:09:03.633 --> 00:09:07.153 inside and like, I can't, I don't want to be rude to him. I don't want to make him feel bad. 00:09:07.513 --> 00:09:12.173 And then to the securely attached girl, then this might be as subtle as no, 00:09:12.313 --> 00:09:14.433 I'm good. Or what on earth makes you think that? 00:09:14.613 --> 00:09:18.453 Do you actually even understand organic chemistry history with annoyance and 00:09:18.453 --> 00:09:22.333 a little bit of that annoyance in her, then he might then mutter some negative 00:09:22.333 --> 00:09:26.133 comment about her and then move on to somebody that is more willing to put up 00:09:26.133 --> 00:09:28.733 with his brand of, I'll go back to air quote, humor. 00:09:29.013 --> 00:09:30.973 Kind of like a, geez, relax. 00:09:31.273 --> 00:09:35.053 I mean, I was just kidding. So a lot of people do feel a bit trapped or stuck, 00:09:35.193 --> 00:09:38.133 or there are people that are saying, I'm going to figure this out. 00:09:38.293 --> 00:09:41.653 And there are times where I talk about being able to differentiate, 00:09:41.873 --> 00:09:45.153 meaning to be able to separate your thoughts and emotions and feelings from 00:09:45.153 --> 00:09:48.633 those of the the person that you are in a relationship with in any relationship. 00:09:49.053 --> 00:09:53.173 And I was speaking recently at an event where I think I actually ended up questioning 00:09:53.173 --> 00:09:57.653 myself where if you're in a relationship that you feel you are stuck financially 00:09:57.653 --> 00:09:59.573 and people around you are saying, 00:09:59.613 --> 00:10:02.553 well, you just got to tell them and you just have to do what you have to do 00:10:02.553 --> 00:10:07.113 and you just have to jump out there and be afraid, but do it anyway and all those things, 00:10:07.233 --> 00:10:10.473 then that person doesn't know what your experience is. 00:10:10.813 --> 00:10:15.173 So if you are here and you're starting to wake up to the emotional immaturity 00:10:15.173 --> 00:10:17.933 in the relationship, maybe even a trauma bond or feeling trapped or stuck, 00:10:18.073 --> 00:10:20.413 that it can be pretty overwhelming and scary. 00:10:20.533 --> 00:10:24.833 So I think that this email goes to that concept of if you are accepting, 00:10:24.913 --> 00:10:27.573 and this does not mean, again, acceptance doesn't mean apathy, 00:10:27.613 --> 00:10:30.413 but it means to take in without defense in its entirety. 00:10:30.433 --> 00:10:32.833 If I'm accepting the fact that this is where I am right now, 00:10:32.873 --> 00:10:38.413 and I can't just assume magically that things will get so much better that I'll 00:10:38.413 --> 00:10:42.973 be able to leave in the next couple of weeks or months or whatever that timeframe is. Yeah. 00:10:43.314 --> 00:10:47.774 Then with that acceptance, now I can differentiate within the relationship. 00:10:48.134 --> 00:10:51.254 When he or she, whoever the more emotionally immature person is, 00:10:51.354 --> 00:10:54.634 loses their mind and gets really emotionally dysregulated and upset, 00:10:54.854 --> 00:10:58.794 then I can practice my boundary of when you do that, then I will leave. 00:10:59.054 --> 00:11:04.834 Or I will protect the kids. Or some of the episodes that I've done about co-parenting 00:11:04.834 --> 00:11:07.654 with the narcissist can be done within the relationship, 00:11:07.854 --> 00:11:13.054 where I am not going to make excuses for the emotionally immature parent's behavior 00:11:13.054 --> 00:11:18.494 behavior and I'm going to ask the kid who's maybe the target of the emotional 00:11:18.494 --> 00:11:22.094 immature parent of, hey, I'm here for you. Tell me what that's like. 00:11:22.194 --> 00:11:26.054 That is hard. Instead of saying, oh, I'm sure mom or dad's just having a rough day. 00:11:26.254 --> 00:11:29.974 So you can learn to differentiate within the relationship. But when I was speaking 00:11:29.974 --> 00:11:33.874 at this event, I found myself then saying, but I know that the question that 00:11:33.874 --> 00:11:36.614 some people have if they're not in that type of relationship is, 00:11:36.694 --> 00:11:40.414 why on earth are you in the the relationship still or staying in the relationship. 00:11:40.694 --> 00:11:45.014 And sometimes it is that process of not sometimes it is the process of needing 00:11:45.014 --> 00:11:48.554 to figure that out yourself and learning the tools and putting those into practice. 00:11:48.614 --> 00:11:52.434 And most likely people are still operating from a place of if I can change the 00:11:52.434 --> 00:11:55.874 relationship enough, then the relationship itself will change, which is true. 00:11:56.943 --> 00:12:00.343 Often, I think that people are hoping that that relationship change is one that 00:12:00.343 --> 00:12:04.603 will then work out and you'll live happily ever after with that person because 00:12:04.603 --> 00:12:07.883 then you can avoid a lot of the discomfort of things like divorce and separating 00:12:07.883 --> 00:12:11.523 assets and all those things that, yeah, those are not ideal. 00:12:12.343 --> 00:12:15.783 So, I love that she said, in retrospect, would I prefer to grow up in a healthier 00:12:15.783 --> 00:12:19.803 home? Of course, because that is, I think that's one of the first questions that people ask. 00:12:19.943 --> 00:12:23.123 Well, wouldn't you rather be in a better relationship or wouldn't you rather 00:12:23.123 --> 00:12:26.383 be out of an unhealthy relationship? Yeah, it's not the first time that somebody's 00:12:26.383 --> 00:12:29.343 thought of that before, but it's just, it's not that easy. 00:12:29.823 --> 00:12:33.163 So I want to talk today about parenting, narcissistic parents. 00:12:33.523 --> 00:12:39.183 And before I dive too deep into that, let's take a moment and talk about the 00:12:39.183 --> 00:12:42.663 difference between a parent who would have full-blown narcissistic personality 00:12:42.663 --> 00:12:45.403 disorder and one who is emotionally immature. 00:12:46.323 --> 00:12:49.923 Because we're really talking more, I think, about the emotionally immature parent, 00:12:50.023 --> 00:12:53.583 but then there are examples of a truly narcissistic parent. 00:12:54.203 --> 00:12:59.363 A quick reminder of NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, is a mental health 00:12:59.363 --> 00:13:02.423 condition and it is characterized by an inflated sense of importance, 00:13:02.663 --> 00:13:06.643 a very deep core need for excessive attention and admiration, 00:13:06.843 --> 00:13:11.243 and that does come with a whole package full of troubled relationships, 00:13:11.543 --> 00:13:15.903 a lack of empathy for others, but behind this mask of incredible confidence 00:13:15.903 --> 00:13:20.843 lies this fragile self-esteem that is still vulnerable to the very slightest criticism. 00:13:20.843 --> 00:13:23.503 Narcissism so then their skin is paper thin and they 00:13:23.503 --> 00:13:26.383 will lash out to defend their fragile egos so a 00:13:26.383 --> 00:13:29.343 lot of times parents in that situation they have an overblown 00:13:29.343 --> 00:13:32.203 sense of entitlement and they will manipulate or exploit their kids to 00:13:32.203 --> 00:13:35.883 meet their needs and what will come out of that is showing very little empathy 00:13:35.883 --> 00:13:40.003 and really little to no genuine interest in their child's life unless it serves 00:13:40.003 --> 00:13:44.523 them as the parent and they're typically overly concerned with their image or 00:13:44.523 --> 00:13:50.083 the image of the family or how their kids reflect on them well do you know how this would look for me. 00:13:51.011 --> 00:13:53.991 So let's take a look at a, let's say you have a kid who excels academically 00:13:53.991 --> 00:13:56.891 and they win some prestigious scholarship. 00:13:57.131 --> 00:14:00.371 The narcissist parent would most likely view this achievement, 00:14:00.491 --> 00:14:02.911 this is a reflection of my own superiority. 00:14:03.431 --> 00:14:06.251 They would probably brag about it to everybody else, all their friends, 00:14:06.371 --> 00:14:11.371 this is excellent genes in action or my incredible parenting is what is responsible. 00:14:11.951 --> 00:14:15.511 And so then if the child tries to share their own struggles or actually the 00:14:15.511 --> 00:14:17.651 fact that they put in the hard work that it took to win the scholarship, 00:14:17.891 --> 00:14:21.771 the narcissistic parent is It's going to just overlook it, dismiss it, 00:14:21.811 --> 00:14:22.811 overshadow those experiences, 00:14:23.111 --> 00:14:28.831 instead focusing on them, the narcissistic parent, how this achievement benefits 00:14:28.831 --> 00:14:31.311 their image. Now, let's look at emotionally immature. 00:14:31.951 --> 00:14:35.911 So, if we just give a general vibe or definition there, emotional immaturity 00:14:35.911 --> 00:14:40.491 in a parent, that would be characterized more by, it's an inability to deal 00:14:40.491 --> 00:14:45.331 with the parent's own emotions or respond appropriately to the emotions of others. 00:14:45.331 --> 00:14:48.891 So they are showing up immature and in 00:14:48.891 --> 00:14:52.191 essence think of it like the a temper tantrum is is 00:14:52.191 --> 00:14:55.671 close to the surface at any time and that can be even responding 00:14:55.671 --> 00:14:59.011 to the emotions of their kids so yeah they might be self-centered 00:14:59.011 --> 00:15:02.211 and that's where it can look like narcissism but it's not to that pathological extent 00:15:02.211 --> 00:15:05.531 seen in narcissism where it's going to be pervasive in every single situation 00:15:05.531 --> 00:15:09.811 that you encounter because to the emotionally immature parent they can be exhausting 00:15:09.811 --> 00:15:13.071 because it goes back to that you never know what you're going to get so their 00:15:13.071 --> 00:15:16.851 actions are going to be more about lack of emotional growth and lack of emotional 00:15:16.851 --> 00:15:19.171 understanding than a deep-seated personality disorder. 00:15:19.351 --> 00:15:23.051 So then these parents might struggle with their emotional regulation and they'll 00:15:23.051 --> 00:15:24.971 be more reactive instead of being responsive. 00:15:25.131 --> 00:15:29.591 And they're going to have difficulty understanding or sitting with the potential 00:15:29.591 --> 00:15:32.071 discomfort of their own child's emotional needs. 00:15:32.231 --> 00:15:35.471 So their kid might have been pushed to get this prestigious scholarship, 00:15:35.511 --> 00:15:41.171 but they don't want to be a rocket scientist any longer. They want to go play in a band. 00:15:41.311 --> 00:15:46.491 And that is going to make the the narcissist is going to just dismiss it altogether. Like, ridiculous. 00:15:47.011 --> 00:15:49.031 No child of mine is going to be in a band. 00:15:49.760 --> 00:15:53.280 But that's how clearly it's just a it's a it's an energy. It's a them thing. 00:15:53.660 --> 00:15:57.960 But then the emotionally immature parent is going to lose their crap. 00:15:58.060 --> 00:16:01.620 Are you kidding me? All the time and effort and energy I put in to and sacrifice 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:05.580 what I want to be doing to give you the opportunity to study to get this scholarship. 00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:07.640 And now you're not going to go be a rocket scientist. 00:16:08.060 --> 00:16:12.060 I can't even believe that. So now that emotional dysregulation causes the kid 00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:15.040 to then say, no, you know what? It's I don't know what I'm thinking. 00:16:15.160 --> 00:16:18.160 I'll do it. Yeah, of course. I want to do that. We go back to the same scenario, 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:19.540 though. The kid excels academically. 00:16:19.680 --> 00:16:22.080 They win the scholarship. So the emotionally immature reaction, 00:16:22.260 --> 00:16:25.120 then they and they might even react at first with excitement. 00:16:25.260 --> 00:16:28.200 Well, all right, that sounds cool because that's the right thing to do. 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:32.880 But quickly, then it's, man, now I have to start worrying about all kinds of things. 00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:36.860 College and I don't even you don't really have a car to get out that way. 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.580 And so it becomes about them, which sounds narcissistic, but it's really about 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:44.720 emotional immaturity. clarity. The narcissist will just figure it out later. 00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:48.560 And then you get to the end. And then all of a sudden, they really didn't ever 00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:51.200 say that. And you were supposed to get your own car or whatever that looks like. 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.780 And you figured it out. And then they get to say, and look how well you figured 00:16:54.780 --> 00:16:58.620 things out because of me as well. I put you in that situation where you're able to thrive. 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.980 But that emotional immature person, again, the excitement, it can shift so quickly 00:17:03.980 --> 00:17:06.080 to then, what does this do for me? 00:17:06.620 --> 00:17:09.980 And that can fluctuate. It can go from bad to good, good to bad, 00:17:10.020 --> 00:17:13.340 where, where, okay, now I have to worry about your college fees to, okay, but you know what? 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:16.760 This is so cool. I can't wait to tell all my friends my kid got into a great college. 00:17:17.532 --> 00:17:22.232 But then they might struggle to provide emotional support or recognize even what the child needs. 00:17:22.552 --> 00:17:25.792 And it's not because they're trying to exploit the thing for their personal 00:17:25.792 --> 00:17:29.892 gain, but it's because they're unable to fully process or respond to their child's 00:17:29.892 --> 00:17:33.512 emotional experience because they are continually going back and forth on what 00:17:33.512 --> 00:17:37.012 they think and feel, and they're just throwing that out there at the child. 00:17:37.492 --> 00:17:40.992 So one minute it really would be the, I am so proud of you, you've worked so 00:17:40.992 --> 00:17:43.652 hard, and then the next minute is, I just don't know what I'm going to do. 00:17:43.752 --> 00:17:46.512 I don't know how I'm going to, I guess I can take a second job. 00:17:46.512 --> 00:17:49.832 Now the kid's going to feel bad and the parent now gets to then take that one-up 00:17:49.832 --> 00:17:52.192 position and say, no, it's okay. I'm willing to do it. 00:17:52.272 --> 00:17:56.312 That's what a good dad I am. While both the narcissistic and the emotionally 00:17:56.312 --> 00:18:00.192 immature parents, you see that struggle to focus on their child's needs and 00:18:00.192 --> 00:18:05.332 feelings, the key difference is really in intention and self-awareness behind 00:18:05.332 --> 00:18:06.612 what they're saying and doing. 00:18:06.612 --> 00:18:12.572 Because the narcissistic parent's behavior is far more self-serving and manipulative, 00:18:12.792 --> 00:18:16.452 and that's a key word, while the emotionally immature parent's behavior is more 00:18:16.452 --> 00:18:20.512 about a lack of emotional development, a lack of emotional control and understanding. 00:18:20.512 --> 00:18:26.472 Let me tell you a finely curated tale about a person named Carl. 00:18:26.772 --> 00:18:31.952 And Carl is someone that is almost begging for their story to be told. 00:18:32.012 --> 00:18:33.172 They're a wonderful human being. 00:18:33.332 --> 00:18:36.952 Carl and I have worked on putting some pieces together of their story. 00:18:36.952 --> 00:18:41.232 And so today you're going to meet Carl and you'll probably hear back from Carl 00:18:41.232 --> 00:18:44.932 in other episodes as well because there's a lot of fascinating things about Carl. 00:18:45.112 --> 00:18:49.672 So of course Carl is not Carl's real name and some of the details have been 00:18:49.672 --> 00:18:55.152 changed to protect the guilty as Carl likes to say hilariously. 00:18:55.412 --> 00:18:58.112 But I think the phrase is supposed to be to protect the innocent. 00:18:58.392 --> 00:19:02.872 Some of the details have been changed. So we'll call this person Carl and Carl 00:19:02.872 --> 00:19:05.132 has become a clinical psychologist. 00:19:05.132 --> 00:19:08.092 Psychologist and that is where a real quick rundown on 00:19:08.092 --> 00:19:10.792 therapists psychologists psychiatrists they all walk 00:19:10.792 --> 00:19:13.912 into a bar no i so i'm a therapist i have my master's 00:19:13.912 --> 00:19:16.752 in counseling and then you do your internship you get 00:19:16.752 --> 00:19:20.232 3 000 hours under your belt and you sit for licensing exams and then you operate 00:19:20.232 --> 00:19:25.592 as a licensed for me marriage and family therapist there's my intern nate licensed 00:19:25.592 --> 00:19:30.652 professional clinical counselor his wife marla who is just joining as a also 00:19:30.652 --> 00:19:34.732 in that role i I literally just spilled water all over my computer keyboard. 00:19:34.772 --> 00:19:37.192 So I will be right back. 00:19:38.165 --> 00:19:44.705 Hey everybody, so that was really really interesting and I just had to leave 00:19:44.705 --> 00:19:50.025 that in there because I just want to make a plug for mindfulness and meditation 00:19:50.025 --> 00:19:52.525 because I wish I would have had my video on. 00:19:52.605 --> 00:19:56.405 I rarely record without video on these days because I want to put clips up on 00:19:56.405 --> 00:20:00.145 YouTube or wherever and I wish you could have seen that. 00:20:00.245 --> 00:20:04.085 I literally knocked over a bottle of water onto my computer and keyboard and 00:20:04.085 --> 00:20:07.305 it turns out I'm still wiping it. And I didn't realize it made it all the way 00:20:07.305 --> 00:20:09.985 up onto my monitor as well. 00:20:10.445 --> 00:20:17.365 And those moments are just, I just feel like they are such a testament to a 00:20:17.365 --> 00:20:19.305 regular meditation or mindfulness practice. 00:20:19.325 --> 00:20:22.765 Because I was not this guy years and years ago. 00:20:23.025 --> 00:20:27.065 I would have gotten really upset and I would have probably wanted to complain about it. 00:20:27.305 --> 00:20:31.605 But that definitely just happened. And I do wonder if I would have watched my 00:20:31.605 --> 00:20:35.765 computer go up in flames or smoke or something, if that would have been a little 00:20:35.765 --> 00:20:39.105 more difficult to notice that and just be in due. 00:20:39.365 --> 00:20:43.285 But yeah, that happened. And we're back. And I lost some time. 00:20:43.305 --> 00:20:47.325 But what an experience. What a joy that was. was. 00:20:47.545 --> 00:20:50.805 So I think I was just talking about the therapist, the psychiatrist, 00:20:50.905 --> 00:20:53.005 and the psychologist walking to a bar. 00:20:53.105 --> 00:20:56.085 Oh, and Carl. So there we go. So Carl is a clinical psychologist. 00:20:56.145 --> 00:20:57.985 That's somebody that has their doctorate in psychology. 00:20:58.345 --> 00:21:01.945 And so then they can do more than I can do. They can do what I can do, 00:21:01.985 --> 00:21:05.245 but then they can also run a battery of assessments and exams, 00:21:05.445 --> 00:21:06.505 psychological testing. 00:21:06.705 --> 00:21:10.205 They may work for the court or they may work in more clinical settings or environments 00:21:10.205 --> 00:21:11.865 or hospitals, you name it. 00:21:11.885 --> 00:21:15.165 And a psychiatrist is a full-blown medical doctor who goes to medical school, 00:21:15.245 --> 00:21:16.985 but then they can prescribe medication. 00:21:17.345 --> 00:21:20.565 So, we're talking about Carl. 00:21:20.625 --> 00:21:28.545 Carl is a clinical psychologist, and he likes talking about his own childhood 00:21:28.545 --> 00:21:34.465 experiences with a very narcissistic mother and what he calls an emotionally 00:21:34.465 --> 00:21:36.765 absent or emotionally immature father. 00:21:36.885 --> 00:21:40.085 And Carl specializes in emotional abuse. 00:21:40.225 --> 00:21:43.445 And he says it's in part due to his own childhood experiences. 00:21:43.445 --> 00:21:47.365 So, when you look at his perspective as a clinical psychologist, 00:21:47.545 --> 00:21:51.845 then he is far more able to understand emotional abuse. 00:21:52.065 --> 00:21:55.725 Because through his professional training and his personal experience, 00:21:55.905 --> 00:22:01.145 he has a very deep understanding of the nuances of emotional abuse having experienced those himself. 00:22:01.145 --> 00:22:04.965 And so then he starts to recognize the long-term impact of growing up with a 00:22:04.965 --> 00:22:08.005 narcissistic mom, and then we'll just say an emotionally immature dad. 00:22:08.265 --> 00:22:12.285 And that does help him have more empathy for his patients. 00:22:12.505 --> 00:22:17.165 I call mine clients, he says patients. But his personal history enables him 00:22:17.165 --> 00:22:22.925 to empathize profoundly and to really be able to feel and share some of those 00:22:22.925 --> 00:22:24.725 experiences that some of these people are going through. 00:22:24.725 --> 00:22:28.845 And so then he understands the complex emotions, the struggles that his patients 00:22:28.845 --> 00:22:32.885 face, and that helps make him a more compassionate and effective therapist. 00:22:33.673 --> 00:22:37.173 So let's talk though about his mom. And I think this is really fascinating. 00:22:37.333 --> 00:22:41.493 And we've done a little bit of a deep dive here is that he says that his mom 00:22:41.493 --> 00:22:44.373 often sought attention even when he was young. 00:22:44.553 --> 00:22:49.273 And then throughout high school and college, he now realizes she listened very little to Carl, 00:22:49.353 --> 00:22:53.013 but she would often then tell Carl about her experiences of what she was going 00:22:53.013 --> 00:22:57.973 through when she was in college like he is or how the teachers loved her or 00:22:57.973 --> 00:23:01.313 she basically would end up teaching And whatever it was, 00:23:01.333 --> 00:23:05.493 or when she would ask a question, it was simply to then just launch into, 00:23:05.693 --> 00:23:09.013 he might give a one or two word answer, but then she would launch into one of 00:23:09.013 --> 00:23:11.013 her own stories, which ultimately took Carl through. 00:23:11.453 --> 00:23:15.793 He says heroic story after heroic story, where everyone learned that she was 00:23:15.793 --> 00:23:17.553 incredible and that they were not. 00:23:17.653 --> 00:23:21.573 And they were all grateful that she came into their lives. And he said even 00:23:21.573 --> 00:23:27.533 to this day, she continues to regularly belittle or disregard his feelings or 00:23:27.533 --> 00:23:30.473 achievements unless they add to her own sense of importance. 00:23:30.753 --> 00:23:35.553 One of my favorite Carl lines is that she has told him that she is the reason 00:23:35.553 --> 00:23:40.693 that he became a psychologist, to which he says confidently, yes, mom, yes, you are. 00:23:41.313 --> 00:23:44.993 Now, the impact that it had on Carl, growing up, he often felt more like an 00:23:44.993 --> 00:23:49.813 extension of his mom rather than his own individual person, and he definitely 00:23:49.813 --> 00:23:56.013 wasn't allowed to explore or even have out loud his own needs or his own hopes or desires or dreams. 00:23:57.124 --> 00:24:00.524 So Carl struggled with his own self-esteem issues, and he really only felt valued 00:24:00.524 --> 00:24:03.884 when he met his mom's expectations or met her needs. 00:24:04.204 --> 00:24:07.724 And he looks back now and he said it really didn't matter what he was going through. 00:24:07.924 --> 00:24:11.484 It was going to be an opportunity for her to lecture him about what he did wrong, 00:24:11.644 --> 00:24:15.344 to which, and it's true, she probably felt like that was the way to be a good 00:24:15.344 --> 00:24:18.684 parent because he said that that was definitely how she was parented. 00:24:19.004 --> 00:24:21.844 That essentially that as a parent, that was what you did. 00:24:21.944 --> 00:24:25.244 You tell stories that you have confabulated into legendary tales of success, 00:24:25.504 --> 00:24:28.364 which he she says for the record, cannot be backed up. 00:24:28.664 --> 00:24:32.324 And he talked about one time being in her old hometown and they went to the 00:24:32.324 --> 00:24:35.724 school, the high school to look up the school records that his mom talked about 00:24:35.724 --> 00:24:39.164 only to discover and looking through old yearbooks that she actually hadn't 00:24:39.164 --> 00:24:42.284 participated in sports for the high school at all. 00:24:42.564 --> 00:24:46.664 So now just a really quick pause. I think this is almost sad because to me as 00:24:46.664 --> 00:24:50.804 somebody that works with this population, then I can only venture a guess that 00:24:50.804 --> 00:24:54.904 that Carl's mom never felt like she was enough with her parents, Carl's grandparents, 00:24:55.164 --> 00:24:58.224 and possibly was never actually allowed to play high school sports. 00:24:58.544 --> 00:25:03.444 So I would hazard a guess that she has then turned a slowly but surely growing 00:25:03.444 --> 00:25:07.504 narrative that had she been able to join the track team in high school, 00:25:07.644 --> 00:25:09.784 then no doubt she would have been fast. How fast? 00:25:10.144 --> 00:25:13.224 Well, if she would have been able to be coached and had the right support, 00:25:13.424 --> 00:25:16.964 probably faster than anybody on the team or even in the the area, the land, the state. 00:25:17.584 --> 00:25:21.504 And then I did float this one out to Carl one time when we were just talking 00:25:21.504 --> 00:25:25.284 loosely because his mom often refers to the 1976 Olympics. 00:25:25.824 --> 00:25:29.064 So then he, let's say that she watches the Olympics one day, 00:25:29.144 --> 00:25:32.504 discovers that the world record in the 1976 Olympics, which I looked up, 00:25:32.564 --> 00:25:35.444 was 11.04 seconds for the 100 meter dash. 00:25:35.844 --> 00:25:39.044 So then in her mind, well then that means she probably could have run under 00:25:39.044 --> 00:25:42.244 12 seconds if she would have been given the chance because Because here's the 00:25:42.244 --> 00:25:45.884 crazy thing about confabulation, you can almost see how somebody gets there. 00:25:46.004 --> 00:25:50.164 That they tell themselves the story to almost make up for the fact that they 00:25:50.164 --> 00:25:51.544 didn't have supportive parents. 00:25:51.844 --> 00:25:53.884 And this is happening deep in the subconscious. 00:25:54.324 --> 00:25:58.044 And then it becomes the memory. They create the memory. 00:25:59.024 --> 00:26:03.364 And so that memory that would be that, man, if I would have got to run in high 00:26:03.364 --> 00:26:05.464 school, then I'm sure I would have been the fastest around. 00:26:05.744 --> 00:26:08.264 And if that would have been the case, then obviously I would have made it to 00:26:08.264 --> 00:26:10.304 the Olympics and I probably would have ran this time. 00:26:10.644 --> 00:26:15.064 So then that means, because what's happening is then the memory, 00:26:15.244 --> 00:26:21.884 every time that they pull that memory out, it gets packed and confabulated with 00:26:21.884 --> 00:26:26.024 new memories that make them better and better and all these other details. 00:26:26.024 --> 00:26:30.304 And that's why you run into some pretty big tales that people tell about their 00:26:30.304 --> 00:26:32.184 high school, their college days. 00:26:32.384 --> 00:26:36.884 And then they're so detailed because this person has filled in all the details. 00:26:37.104 --> 00:26:41.444 You know, you find that the truly immature narcissistic person won't remember 00:26:41.444 --> 00:26:46.544 one thing, but then another thing, they remember it to a T, every single detail about it. 00:26:46.604 --> 00:26:49.184 And often that is a sign of that confabulated memory. memory. 00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:52.344 So they create that memory. Then every time they recall it, fill it in with 00:26:52.344 --> 00:26:55.024 more and more of the things that probably would have happened if it had gone 00:26:55.024 --> 00:26:57.884 the way that they wish it would have until one day it did happen. 00:26:58.624 --> 00:27:02.964 So then a quick Google search, and I want to see if she would have been running 00:27:02.964 --> 00:27:05.824 sub 12 seconds in 1976 in high school. 00:27:06.204 --> 00:27:10.364 And let's just say that she for sure would have been in line for some Olympic 00:27:10.364 --> 00:27:12.524 running if that would have been her time back then. 00:27:12.664 --> 00:27:16.824 And then here is what is so fascinating about narcissists and emotional immaturity. 00:27:17.064 --> 00:27:20.704 So the more that the narcissist shares these stories, well, people eventually 00:27:20.704 --> 00:27:23.344 then either don't say a word because what's the point? 00:27:23.464 --> 00:27:25.804 And then the narcissist puts that memory back away as, well, 00:27:25.844 --> 00:27:30.704 that definitely happened because people were just so enthralled and enamored by my story. 00:27:30.964 --> 00:27:34.104 So then that memory is strengthened. And then if you do disagree, 00:27:34.344 --> 00:27:38.744 well, now they'll engage because if you are disagreeing, then that means you 00:27:38.744 --> 00:27:40.104 think you're right and you think they're wrong. 00:27:40.484 --> 00:27:44.404 And then therefore you must now be made to take the one down position or to feel dumb. 00:27:44.504 --> 00:27:47.904 And then that's done by the narcissist or the emotionally immature as 00:27:47.904 --> 00:27:51.004 if it's as if they're just breathing air now they 00:27:51.004 --> 00:27:54.164 go to by way of anger or manipulation or gaslighting or 00:27:54.164 --> 00:27:57.324 victim status or you name it which is why ultimately people 00:27:57.324 --> 00:28:01.024 end up going no contact with the narcissist because it because contact fuels 00:28:01.024 --> 00:28:04.984 the narcissist and sometimes that really does break my heart because they have 00:28:04.984 --> 00:28:08.184 to have another individual to interact with to make them feel like they matter 00:28:08.184 --> 00:28:11.624 they can't just be or be curious or hear somebody else's perspective because 00:28:11.624 --> 00:28:15.124 they were never modeled that behavior People were not curious about them. 00:28:15.184 --> 00:28:19.964 And now it's as if they're so fragile that if you really look deep into their 00:28:19.964 --> 00:28:23.684 soul and then pointed out these inconsistencies, then that means you are going 00:28:23.684 --> 00:28:25.144 to abandon them and they will die. 00:28:25.284 --> 00:28:28.284 They must be this special and this amazing. And in order to do so, 00:28:28.284 --> 00:28:33.184 then you must be one down to make sure that they know that they are better than you. 00:28:33.304 --> 00:28:37.624 Because that's what they're looking for. And that is why they often raise either 00:28:37.624 --> 00:28:40.944 similar kids or highly sensitive kids or kids that find themselves in relationships 00:28:40.944 --> 00:28:45.224 similar to their own kid parent dynamic with somebody who is, we'll say, 00:28:45.304 --> 00:28:49.524 big and loud and decisive and who takes action, but still doesn't take ownership. 00:28:50.535 --> 00:28:55.455 So back to the story of Carl, and we'll just take a look from his mom's perspective. 00:28:55.895 --> 00:28:58.355 She might believe that she was doing what was best for Carl, 00:28:58.415 --> 00:29:00.535 not recognizing her behavior as harmful. 00:29:00.815 --> 00:29:06.535 Because in her view, her actions might have been justified as pushing Carl to 00:29:06.535 --> 00:29:10.695 achieve more or ensuring that the family maintained a certain image that her 00:29:10.695 --> 00:29:14.475 son was going to go on and get his doctorate. yes, now he is Dr. 00:29:14.675 --> 00:29:20.135 Carl, but yet she has never taken the time to understand that the type of doctor 00:29:20.135 --> 00:29:23.935 that Carl is cannot prescribe medication or perform a surgery. 00:29:24.195 --> 00:29:28.355 And if somebody is having a problem on an airplane and they say, 00:29:28.375 --> 00:29:29.375 is there a doctor in the house? 00:29:29.615 --> 00:29:33.475 He needs to tell her, mom, I'm not going to just go ask the person who's passing 00:29:33.475 --> 00:29:35.015 out. Hey, how are you feeling right now? 00:29:35.115 --> 00:29:37.615 Any trauma from your mom? Like me? 00:29:38.315 --> 00:29:45.695 So yes, Carl is successful now, but again, it is in spite of his mom, not thanks to his mom. 00:29:46.155 --> 00:29:50.335 And then if we bring Carl's dad into the mix, Carl's father likely struggled 00:29:50.335 --> 00:29:51.455 with emotional regulation. 00:29:51.815 --> 00:29:54.755 He was really unable to provide emotional support or guidance, 00:29:54.955 --> 00:30:00.275 and he just often just reacted impulsively, or he would withdraw at times of stress. 00:30:00.535 --> 00:30:04.235 And when dad was stressed because of work, or later Carl really wonders because 00:30:04.235 --> 00:30:05.435 of interacting with his mom, 00:30:05.575 --> 00:30:09.495 then his dad retreated to working late or spending a lot of of time with his 00:30:09.495 --> 00:30:12.895 friends in a man cave or going out doing his own activities, 00:30:13.035 --> 00:30:15.595 but truly disengaging from the family. 00:30:15.895 --> 00:30:19.095 So when Carl would interact with his dad, his dad was dealing with so much of 00:30:19.095 --> 00:30:22.035 his own stuff in life that he just never really had the time or took the time 00:30:22.035 --> 00:30:25.595 to truly get to know Carl. And Carl has felt that his entire life. 00:30:26.075 --> 00:30:29.635 He said it's actually been emotionally freeing for Carl to let go of that need 00:30:29.635 --> 00:30:34.655 for his dad's approval to get to this place where Carl just has to know or learn 00:30:34.655 --> 00:30:37.195 that he is enough, that he's okay. 00:30:37.695 --> 00:30:41.695 Because Carl always struggled with feeling like he was, or he would always let his dad down. 00:30:41.955 --> 00:30:45.755 But a lot of that is because he honestly received little to no feedback from his dad. 00:30:46.115 --> 00:30:51.155 So he was left to guess. And as we covered in the past, thoughts just left to 00:30:51.155 --> 00:30:53.555 their own don't often lead to, but I'm sure everything was okay. 00:30:53.755 --> 00:30:56.915 I am enough and my dad loves me, even though he's never said it. 00:30:57.275 --> 00:31:01.135 And there's the criticism coming from him has no, no effect on me. 00:31:01.932 --> 00:31:04.852 Because here's where that concept of whole object relations comes back into play. 00:31:05.032 --> 00:31:11.172 And working with Carl, we've helped Carl learn how to see his dad as an entire person, a whole person. 00:31:12.112 --> 00:31:15.592 That he would never be able to thank his dad enough for, he said, 00:31:15.612 --> 00:31:18.732 was providing financially for the family and working hard. 00:31:19.072 --> 00:31:21.912 Because he knew his dad had an incredible work ethic, which again, 00:31:21.972 --> 00:31:26.212 now he wonders if that was because it wasn't necessarily as comfortable to be at home. 00:31:26.212 --> 00:31:30.612 But the financial stability is what has helped Carl achieve a lot of his own 00:31:30.612 --> 00:31:35.072 early stability in his life, which is what he needed in order to do all of his 00:31:35.072 --> 00:31:38.632 schooling to get to the point where he is now. So he appreciates that. 00:31:39.072 --> 00:31:44.832 And while he has also been sad and angry and frustrated and disappointed, he's also grateful. 00:31:44.932 --> 00:31:48.732 And he also realizes that his own dad didn't know what he didn't know. 00:31:48.732 --> 00:31:52.232 And there is barely any talk going on today about 00:31:52.232 --> 00:31:55.412 emotional neglect or attachment issues in general so 00:31:55.412 --> 00:31:58.312 he knows that his that those weren't topics of 00:31:58.312 --> 00:32:01.292 conversation when his dad was a young father or 00:32:01.292 --> 00:32:05.632 even just a father to teenagers that his dad probably wasn't learning things 00:32:05.632 --> 00:32:11.372 and then actively plotting to not use them with his own kids or family so what 00:32:11.372 --> 00:32:15.252 becomes really interesting i think this is uh you hear jokes a lot that therapists 00:32:15.252 --> 00:32:18.412 get into therapy to work on themselves most therapists think, no, I didn't. 00:32:18.652 --> 00:32:23.792 But I bring this story up because Carl recognizes now that he got into the field 00:32:23.792 --> 00:32:26.032 he's in because of his childhood experiences. 00:32:26.452 --> 00:32:30.872 And little did he know that he would be really good at what he does because 00:32:30.872 --> 00:32:33.792 he has empathy for what others are going through. 00:32:34.112 --> 00:32:39.092 And I recognize myself that I can only speak truly to the things that I have 00:32:39.092 --> 00:32:41.112 been through. I can read you textbook things. 00:32:41.292 --> 00:32:44.072 This is why one of the areas I don't focus a lot 00:32:44.072 --> 00:32:47.612 on is eating disorders or disordered eating because I 00:32:47.612 --> 00:32:50.612 have not had a problem with that or it is 00:32:50.612 --> 00:32:54.192 pretty it's really fascinating to me when people 00:32:54.192 --> 00:32:58.192 have the the body dysmorphia or they see themselves in a different light than 00:32:58.192 --> 00:33:02.432 what you know I see in front of me but boy if we want to talk about emotional 00:33:02.432 --> 00:33:06.332 immaturity narcissistic traits and tendencies anxious attachment getting rid 00:33:06.332 --> 00:33:10.352 of shame just being and doing learning to be present learning to be curious 00:33:10.352 --> 00:33:12.692 mindfulness meditation building that pause in, 00:33:12.772 --> 00:33:18.012 then I can speak to these things because they just, they resonate with me because 00:33:18.012 --> 00:33:19.172 of my own lived experience. 00:33:19.892 --> 00:33:24.872 So then Carl's background gives him an incredible set of unique insights into 00:33:24.872 --> 00:33:28.012 the dynamics of people who have been through emotional abuse and neglect. 00:33:28.672 --> 00:33:32.492 Because Carl understands the subtleties of how different forms of what he calls 00:33:32.492 --> 00:33:36.832 parental inadequacy can affect the child's entire developmental process. 00:33:37.332 --> 00:33:40.592 And so then he finds personal healing through his professional work, 00:33:40.592 --> 00:33:44.712 helping others who have had similar experiences, it can be therapeutic for Carl. 00:33:44.912 --> 00:33:50.652 And it allows him to process his own past and use it to foster a deeper connection with his patients. 00:33:51.352 --> 00:33:55.652 And so he says that, yeah, in this scenario, absolutely. His career choices 00:33:55.652 --> 00:33:57.272 is so deeply influenced by his. 00:33:59.088 --> 00:34:03.348 That his understanding of the impact of having a narcissistic mom and emotionally 00:34:03.348 --> 00:34:08.148 immature dad allows him to connect with and support his patients in a really 00:34:08.148 --> 00:34:12.288 profound and empathetic way that isn't just learning about something in a textbook 00:34:12.288 --> 00:34:14.668 and then trying to share that with other people. 00:34:15.308 --> 00:34:20.208 So I think that that is just so interesting and it speaks volumes then to how 00:34:20.208 --> 00:34:25.808 we can still learn or show up differently from an emotionally immature or narcissistic parent. 00:34:26.328 --> 00:34:31.128 But then the question is often, why do some people show up in a way where they 00:34:31.128 --> 00:34:35.148 go into maybe a mental health field, and then somebody else goes down a path 00:34:35.148 --> 00:34:38.468 where they just continually are looking for more and more and more validation, 00:34:38.668 --> 00:34:43.028 but it's coming from this hole deep inside of them that they feel like they 00:34:43.028 --> 00:34:46.408 can never ever fill, but they aren't even aware that they can't because they 00:34:46.408 --> 00:34:48.628 are continually trying to fill that hole. 00:34:49.388 --> 00:34:52.848 And back to my own experience, I was one of those who said, oh, 00:34:52.848 --> 00:34:56.548 no, I'm not getting into this field to work on myself. I dig myself. 00:34:57.408 --> 00:35:02.088 I'm awesome. Just ask me. But then going through this process year after year 00:35:02.088 --> 00:35:05.668 after year, you start to just pick up and recognize the traits that people are 00:35:05.668 --> 00:35:08.028 struggling with or going through and realizing, oh, man, 00:35:08.168 --> 00:35:13.148 thank goodness that I found this career path because it really has helped me grow as a person. 00:35:13.208 --> 00:35:17.288 And then I feel like that is all I want to do is share and help other people. 00:35:18.227 --> 00:35:22.467 And in the vein of pure transparency, what I want to go through is a list of, 00:35:22.487 --> 00:35:28.907 I think I have almost 10 of these traits or ways that emotionally mature narcissistic 00:35:28.907 --> 00:35:30.867 parents negatively impact their kids. 00:35:31.107 --> 00:35:34.507 And this is just something I've had on a Google document for a long time, 00:35:34.567 --> 00:35:37.867 and I never put where this came from. 00:35:37.867 --> 00:35:40.667 And I know it came from some article that somebody had sent me, 00:35:40.707 --> 00:35:46.367 and I googled certain words and phrases, and I could not find the article to 00:35:46.367 --> 00:35:47.747 give the proper attribution. 00:35:47.827 --> 00:35:50.747 So if someone ever says, wait a minute, I wrote all those things, 00:35:50.907 --> 00:35:56.027 then please reach out to me, and I would love to give you credit for this article 00:35:56.027 --> 00:35:56.947 because I thought it was really good. 00:35:57.667 --> 00:36:01.127 So how narcissistic parents can negatively impact their kids. 00:36:01.487 --> 00:36:04.767 The first way is self-centeredness. so imagine 00:36:04.767 --> 00:36:07.687 if somebody is always focused on themselves like they're the main 00:36:07.687 --> 00:36:11.007 character in a movie then everybody else is just playing a 00:36:11.007 --> 00:36:14.087 side character or a supporting cast because that's 00:36:14.087 --> 00:36:16.827 how narcissistic parents often act that they're so 00:36:16.827 --> 00:36:19.987 wrapped up in their own world that they don't have much emotional energy left 00:36:19.987 --> 00:36:24.567 for their kids and they don't even know that they aren't making it about the 00:36:24.567 --> 00:36:28.647 kids because more often than not they are simply modeling the behavior that 00:36:28.647 --> 00:36:31.627 they witness that this is all that they know that the parent does make it about 00:36:31.627 --> 00:36:34.787 themselves because Because that's just what the parent does, 00:36:34.867 --> 00:36:39.727 that they don't even know that the goal to create a secure attachment with your 00:36:39.727 --> 00:36:44.127 kid is to first go toward your kid. Tell me more. What's going on for you? 00:36:44.687 --> 00:36:48.087 What's that like for you? And if I want to then tell you that, 00:36:48.127 --> 00:36:52.467 well, don't do that, or, well, here's what I used to do when I was your age, those are me things. 00:36:52.607 --> 00:36:56.767 And that's me, in essence, treating my kid like a little emotional support animal. 00:36:56.847 --> 00:37:00.647 And I'm wanting validation from my kid because I didn't get it from my own parents. 00:37:00.647 --> 00:37:03.907 And I don't know how to get that from other adults my age. 00:37:05.003 --> 00:37:08.143 There's a story that comes to mind that I swear I spent more time trying to 00:37:08.143 --> 00:37:11.263 find this story than recording or putting this whole podcast together, 00:37:11.323 --> 00:37:12.303 but I think it's so worth it. 00:37:12.563 --> 00:37:16.863 But it's from the Angela Duckworth book, Grit, which is a really fascinating book. 00:37:17.203 --> 00:37:22.663 But in the book, she tells a story about Jeff Bezos, the Amazon founder's mom named Jackie. 00:37:23.523 --> 00:37:27.783 So from the book, Jeff Bezos' mother Jackie watched with great curiosity to 00:37:27.783 --> 00:37:28.903 what interested her children. 00:37:29.243 --> 00:37:32.803 She said, I was just so curious about these little creatures and who they were 00:37:32.803 --> 00:37:34.563 and what they were going to do. 00:37:34.643 --> 00:37:39.703 I paid attention to what interested each one and they were all different and followed their lead. 00:37:39.903 --> 00:37:44.063 I felt it was my responsibility to let them do deep dives into what they really enjoyed. 00:37:44.623 --> 00:37:49.643 Jeff was always inventing things and trying new things, breaking things and fixing them. 00:37:50.183 --> 00:37:55.463 So she says, do we as parents let them bloom into a world-class problem solver? 00:37:55.843 --> 00:37:59.203 Jackie Bezos tells of how she was sitting with a friend and Jeff comes up and 00:37:59.203 --> 00:38:03.503 tells her, And I think in the book, this was when he was maybe 10 or around that age. 00:38:03.963 --> 00:38:07.083 And she tells her all about some scientific thing. 00:38:07.263 --> 00:38:11.463 And Jackie's friend asked if she understood what Jeff was saying after he left. 00:38:11.543 --> 00:38:14.883 And Jackie's response was, oh, it's not important that I understand everything. 00:38:15.243 --> 00:38:19.723 It's important that I listen. And I thought about that example so often where 00:38:19.723 --> 00:38:24.903 if I felt immature or insecure and I didn't understand what my kid was talking 00:38:24.903 --> 00:38:27.303 about, then if you're really immature, then you think, well, 00:38:27.343 --> 00:38:28.783 that means they think they're smarter than me. 00:38:29.103 --> 00:38:31.343 So then I need to let them know, you know what, that stuff's ridiculous. 00:38:31.803 --> 00:38:33.743 You're not going to do anything with that when you grow up anyway. 00:38:34.043 --> 00:38:36.943 Or, well, I think that's dumb and you should be doing something else because 00:38:36.943 --> 00:38:38.803 then the parent has made it about them. him. 00:38:39.323 --> 00:38:43.523 Because kids need a lot of attention and love to grow up feeling secure and 00:38:43.523 --> 00:38:46.723 good about themselves, but a self-absorbed parent struggles to give enough of that. 00:38:47.163 --> 00:38:50.683 So this can leave a kid feeling insecure and doubting themselves and unsure 00:38:50.683 --> 00:38:52.743 about how close they should get to others. 00:38:52.883 --> 00:38:57.343 And it can really start to play a role and mess with how they see themselves. 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:02.279 So a second example of how narcissistic or emotionally immature parents can 00:39:02.279 --> 00:39:07.159 impact kids is the concepts around grandiosity and then living vicariously through your kid. 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:11.279 Because if you think about parents who are overly obsessed with power or looking 00:39:11.279 --> 00:39:14.559 good to others, then they might see their kids as a way to boost their own image, 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.919 especially if the kid is super talented. 00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:21.259 Now the downside, if the kid is really good at something, they might become 00:39:21.259 --> 00:39:22.859 an extension of that parent's ego. 00:39:22.959 --> 00:39:27.619 If the kid isn't meeting these high expectations, then they could face a harsh 00:39:27.619 --> 00:39:28.459 treatment from the parent. 00:39:28.879 --> 00:39:32.519 And this is one of those situations where you just see a lot of parents that 00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:36.459 are just really, really driving their kids almost, well, not even almost into 00:39:36.459 --> 00:39:39.939 the ground to perform better, to try harder, 00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:45.079 to work more with a lot of times with regard to sports is one of the easiest things to take a look at. 00:39:45.479 --> 00:39:49.779 And these situations are tough because they can really mess with the kid's emotional 00:39:49.779 --> 00:39:54.199 growth, either making them feel like they're just a a part of their parent, 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.539 or it leaves them just feeling absolutely rejected if they don't measure up. 00:39:57.979 --> 00:40:01.339 And man, true, vulnerable, honest confession here. 00:40:01.479 --> 00:40:06.319 My son had a full ride basketball scholarship and not long ago had decided, 00:40:06.459 --> 00:40:11.339 and I'm so proud of him now for making this decision because it was a him decision 00:40:11.339 --> 00:40:15.699 that he said he didn't want to play anymore. And this had been a big part of his identity. 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:20.719 And I realized I felt this front and center and talk about the concepts around 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:22.539 differentiation of things being a me thing. 00:40:22.919 --> 00:40:26.599 I loved seeing him play. I enjoyed the attention he received locally. 00:40:26.979 --> 00:40:30.659 I loved saying that he had a full ride basketball scholarship. 00:40:30.979 --> 00:40:34.519 I loved watching him play. I couldn't wait to watch him play more. 00:40:34.759 --> 00:40:39.039 I loved when he chased down the scoring record. It is over a hundred year old high school. 00:40:39.299 --> 00:40:42.139 I loved wearing the gear. Now, what is that a lot of? 00:40:42.219 --> 00:40:48.379 I, I, I, I, there is so much of me going on there that then that is a me issue 00:40:48.379 --> 00:40:51.239 to not just Just say, tell me what that's like. Tell me more. 00:40:51.779 --> 00:40:55.559 Because I have to realize if I'm trying to force him to do something that he 00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.899 no longer wants to do, that has been a long time in the making. 00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.199 So other things, I'll go through some of these pretty quickly. 00:41:02.259 --> 00:41:04.699 The lack of proper care and responsiveness. 00:41:04.859 --> 00:41:07.839 Narcissistic parents often don't really get other people's feelings, 00:41:07.979 --> 00:41:11.279 especially their kids, because they might only pay attention to their kid if 00:41:11.279 --> 00:41:12.239 it somehow benefits them. 00:41:12.339 --> 00:41:16.219 If you have had a conversation with an emotionally immature narcissistic parent, 00:41:16.359 --> 00:41:20.119 and even if they They do ask what's going on and you start to explain. 00:41:20.179 --> 00:41:24.299 I can't tell you the number of times I've had conversations in my office with 00:41:24.299 --> 00:41:29.319 people that say, I mean, my mom, my dad, they literally start just looking at 00:41:29.319 --> 00:41:33.779 their watch or their phone or you can just see them get irritated or agitated or almost anxious. 00:41:33.839 --> 00:41:36.819 Like I, okay, I asked a question. I really want to, I don't want to hear anything. 00:41:36.939 --> 00:41:38.319 This has nothing to do with me. 00:41:39.221 --> 00:41:43.801 And this lack of sensitivity, it will really start to hinder a kid's emotional 00:41:43.801 --> 00:41:46.981 development because then they will start to feel emotionally starved because 00:41:46.981 --> 00:41:48.801 they're not going to continue to go to that well. 00:41:49.501 --> 00:41:51.881 Because then if the parent says, so what have you been up to? 00:41:52.021 --> 00:41:56.581 At some point, the kid's just going to say, not much. So the parent says, oh, okay, cool. Good. 00:41:57.061 --> 00:41:59.901 Makes the parent feel better. And the kid just says, what does it matter? 00:42:00.081 --> 00:42:01.161 I can't open up to you anyway. 00:42:01.841 --> 00:42:06.521 And then that can absolutely play out into other relationships where either they can be a lot. 00:42:06.521 --> 00:42:09.381 They can almost be emotionally overwhelming to a new 00:42:09.381 --> 00:42:12.461 partner because they so desperately want to be heard or they 00:42:12.461 --> 00:42:15.821 show up completely withdrawn or avoidant as 00:42:15.821 --> 00:42:18.541 an avoidant attachment style because they feel like 00:42:18.541 --> 00:42:23.041 well what does it matter anyway i'm never heard a couple of other things impatience 00:42:23.041 --> 00:42:27.081 with what i call normal kid behavior if a parent is super concerned about their 00:42:27.081 --> 00:42:30.721 own image then they might not handle typical kid misbehavior well they get really 00:42:30.721 --> 00:42:34.801 easily frustrated and they might respond harshly because they think that their 00:42:34.801 --> 00:42:36.821 kid's behavior reflects on them badly. 00:42:36.981 --> 00:42:40.161 You guys need to not embarrass me when we are going out to eat. 00:42:40.541 --> 00:42:44.861 Instead of just knowing that a kid is going to be and do loud and do crazy things 00:42:44.861 --> 00:42:48.001 when you go out to eat and they are your kids. 00:42:48.081 --> 00:42:50.361 It's your family. It's your situation. It's your dynamic. 00:42:50.641 --> 00:42:53.701 If somebody else takes offense, well, then that's really a them issue. 00:42:53.841 --> 00:42:56.921 Now, I'm not saying that you're running up on top of the tables and throwing 00:42:56.921 --> 00:43:01.161 french fries all over the place because that's an attachment to need just screaming 00:43:01.161 --> 00:43:02.721 out loud there, hey, look at me. 00:43:03.561 --> 00:43:09.421 But that impatience with normal kid behavior, then it will often lead kids to 00:43:09.421 --> 00:43:11.661 feel like they have to be perfect. And that's a huge burden. 00:43:12.181 --> 00:43:15.921 And that can lead to a whole lot of issues like anxiety, our kids being too 00:43:15.921 --> 00:43:18.301 hard on themselves, or back to the withdrawing from others. 00:43:19.321 --> 00:43:22.581 Overbearing control. Narcissistic parents often need to control everything. 00:43:23.081 --> 00:43:27.341 Love or control in a relationship, which one? Not both. both so they're constantly 00:43:27.341 --> 00:43:29.081 directing and coaching and criticizing. 00:43:29.381 --> 00:43:34.001 And once you really see this, it's so hard to unsee it because you just see 00:43:34.001 --> 00:43:38.341 it's almost like the parent just exists by telling the kid, hey, sit up. Don't do that. 00:43:38.681 --> 00:43:42.261 Don't say that. Look straight ahead. And the kid just all of a sudden feels 00:43:42.261 --> 00:43:46.041 like I'm literally just sitting here being and I'm doing it wrong, 00:43:46.181 --> 00:43:50.341 which that breaks my heart to see that internalized. 00:43:50.401 --> 00:43:56.701 I see a kid internalize that, that my simple existence is apparently not the right way to do it. 00:43:56.721 --> 00:44:00.321 So now I really do need somebody to tell me if I'm okay, and I need somebody 00:44:00.321 --> 00:44:03.021 to tell me if I'm saying the right thing or doing the right thing. 00:44:03.241 --> 00:44:09.301 And that is almost a recipe to get into an unhealthy relationship with an emotionally 00:44:09.301 --> 00:44:12.881 immature narcissistic person who is more than happy to tell you what to do and 00:44:12.881 --> 00:44:14.261 what to say and how to feel and think. 00:44:15.113 --> 00:44:17.473 And let me go into a little bit of a deep dive on this next one. 00:44:17.513 --> 00:44:22.693 It's the concept around struggling to love the real child or to really see the kid as who they are. 00:44:23.153 --> 00:44:27.233 So imagine a parent who can't really love their kid just as they are because 00:44:27.233 --> 00:44:30.033 narcissists and emotionally immature parents so often have this issue. 00:44:30.233 --> 00:44:34.213 They can't give that full unconditional love that kids really need if the kid 00:44:34.213 --> 00:44:36.913 is making them uncomfortable with who the kid is. 00:44:37.213 --> 00:44:42.873 An ADHD kid, a highly anxious kid, a kid who maybe doesn't do the things that 00:44:42.873 --> 00:44:44.793 the parent always thought that their kid would do. 00:44:45.113 --> 00:44:49.373 So then instead, the parent's love comes with conditions like only showing affection 00:44:49.373 --> 00:44:51.553 when the child meets their expectations. 00:44:52.113 --> 00:44:55.253 And this can make a kid feel like they're not good enough as they are, 00:44:55.353 --> 00:44:59.673 leading to feelings of being unlovable and an entirely just internalized negative 00:44:59.673 --> 00:45:00.533 view of themselves. selves. 00:45:01.073 --> 00:45:07.333 So let me give you a specific example that I have actually seen play out on multiple occasions. 00:45:07.773 --> 00:45:13.853 And this is one where a father and son, where the father will just say that 00:45:13.853 --> 00:45:17.813 he was a decent or maybe even a really talented or good high school athlete. 00:45:18.033 --> 00:45:21.793 And so he seems to have a fixed image on what he wants his son to be, 00:45:21.873 --> 00:45:24.453 which is an athlete just like the old man. 00:45:24.453 --> 00:45:29.733 But this expectation overshadows his ability to appreciate and embrace his son's 00:45:29.733 --> 00:45:34.573 genuine interests, which in this case and in a few have been something like music. 00:45:35.553 --> 00:45:40.533 So the father, he's disinterested in music and the son's passion for music is 00:45:40.533 --> 00:45:41.833 a crucial part of his identity. 00:45:42.313 --> 00:45:45.953 That's what he thinks about. That's what he watches on TV, on YouTube. 00:45:46.193 --> 00:45:51.033 He plays anything that he can. He actually has a real natural talent for instruments, 00:45:51.133 --> 00:45:53.853 even though they don't even have a lot of instruments in the house. 00:45:54.453 --> 00:45:57.233 But every time he tries to share this interest with his dad, 00:45:57.373 --> 00:46:00.973 he's met with absolute indifference or a real lack of enthusiasm. 00:46:01.593 --> 00:46:04.453 And this can be seen in instances where the son talks about a new song that 00:46:04.453 --> 00:46:08.893 he's hearing or learning or some music event that he wants to even just go see at school. 00:46:09.213 --> 00:46:12.893 And in a couple of situations, it's where the kid actually wanted to play an 00:46:12.893 --> 00:46:16.893 instrument in a band and the parent said, the dad said, oh no, 00:46:16.933 --> 00:46:20.693 no kid of mine is going to play in a band because that's during whatever track 00:46:20.693 --> 00:46:22.673 and field season or baseball season. 00:46:23.213 --> 00:46:27.933 And so the father, if he even does respond, is with very minimal interest or 00:46:27.933 --> 00:46:31.993 then changes the subject back to sports, which leads to forced involvement in 00:46:31.993 --> 00:46:34.113 sports. And don't get me wrong, I loved sports. 00:46:34.353 --> 00:46:36.833 I did. I also would have loved to play a musical instrument, 00:46:36.933 --> 00:46:41.293 but I love sports. I really did. They did a wonderful thing for me as far as 00:46:41.293 --> 00:46:42.213 self-esteem and identity. 00:46:43.336 --> 00:46:46.816 But so despite his lack of natural talent or interest in sports, 00:46:46.936 --> 00:46:50.856 in this scenario, it's a son who keeps trying different sports to try and connect with his dad. 00:46:51.336 --> 00:46:56.596 And so he, every season, he's trying everything from soccer and baseball and 00:46:56.596 --> 00:46:59.896 flag football and basketball and you name it. 00:47:00.096 --> 00:47:03.816 And he's driven by this hope of winning his dad's approval or his attention. 00:47:03.936 --> 00:47:08.356 But unfortunately, his efforts in sports are, quite frankly, mediocre. 00:47:08.576 --> 00:47:13.136 And then it leaves him feeling very frustrated. frustrated and his dad with 00:47:13.136 --> 00:47:18.756 not a lot of good things to say and his dad just insisting on he needs to be better. 00:47:19.196 --> 00:47:24.516 So then the dad who was absolutely unable to go deeper and see his son's true 00:47:24.516 --> 00:47:27.916 self and his interests pushes him continuously to excel in sports, 00:47:28.156 --> 00:47:31.636 signing him up for extra coaching and sending him to camps and just expressing 00:47:31.636 --> 00:47:34.296 disappointment at his performance, always talking on the way home about how 00:47:34.296 --> 00:47:37.716 bad the guy did during the game and just ways to improve. 00:47:37.716 --> 00:47:41.476 And then the kid, desperate for his dad's attention, is trying, 00:47:41.696 --> 00:47:44.716 but that just isn't something that he really cares about. 00:47:45.196 --> 00:47:51.796 And so the son's lack of enthusiasm or success in sports then is viewed by dad 00:47:51.796 --> 00:47:56.476 and the kid as a problem to be fixed, not an indication that maybe this isn't 00:47:56.476 --> 00:47:57.656 his true interest or passion. 00:47:58.156 --> 00:48:02.956 So the emotional consequences for the kid, then the son in his desire for a 00:48:02.956 --> 00:48:07.476 connection with his dad starts to feel real deep feelings of inadequacy, 00:48:07.476 --> 00:48:12.796 rejection, and he continually fails to excel in sports. 00:48:13.076 --> 00:48:16.396 You couple that with his dad's lack of interest in the kid's musical talents, 00:48:16.496 --> 00:48:22.116 and the kid absolutely now feels like he is not enough, or that his true interest 00:48:22.116 --> 00:48:25.856 of what he wants to do must not really be that important or they're unworthy 00:48:25.856 --> 00:48:27.116 of his attention or time. 00:48:27.496 --> 00:48:31.236 This starts to develop into a negative self-concept and a feeling that he is 00:48:31.236 --> 00:48:32.876 not truly loved for who he is, 00:48:32.956 --> 00:48:37.176 but he is only going to be loved if he does what others want him to do. 00:48:37.516 --> 00:48:43.196 Which if we're talking long-term impact over time, this dynamic leads to deep emotional rifts. 00:48:43.456 --> 00:48:46.416 So the son starts to withdraw from trying to even connect with his dad or he 00:48:46.416 --> 00:48:51.396 might suppress his musical interest and just continue to be mediocre and pursuing sports. 00:48:51.676 --> 00:48:55.156 And in the long run, it absolutely impacts his self-esteem. How could it not? 00:48:55.156 --> 00:48:58.976 Not. And his willingness to pursue his passions, he's putting those to the side. 00:48:59.316 --> 00:49:03.156 And he lacks this understanding of what a healthy, supportive relationship would 00:49:03.156 --> 00:49:06.076 look like, which unfortunately could still be modeled with his own kids someday. 00:49:06.576 --> 00:49:10.316 So in that situation, the father's inability to appreciate and nurture his son's 00:49:10.316 --> 00:49:17.376 true self, his love for music, is such an example of the struggle to love the kid authentically. 00:49:17.896 --> 00:49:23.156 And that just shines a big old spotlight on the emotional toll that a kid goes 00:49:23.156 --> 00:49:25.636 through when a parent's love and acceptance are conditional is. 00:49:27.105 --> 00:49:31.705 Okay, so we've just got a couple more ways that the narcissistic or emotionally 00:49:31.705 --> 00:49:34.165 immature parent can impact their kids. 00:49:34.845 --> 00:49:39.905 Emotional roller coaster at home. Narcissistic parents, they are like a volcano 00:49:39.905 --> 00:49:43.885 that is just ready to erupt. Very unpredictable and explosive. 00:49:44.685 --> 00:49:49.405 Very inconsistent, emotionally inconsistent. So then their overreactions, 00:49:49.545 --> 00:49:52.825 their emotional outbursts, those make the home feel just unsafe. 00:49:52.885 --> 00:49:55.325 It can feel kind of like a minefield rather than a safe place. 00:49:55.325 --> 00:50:00.445 And so kids that grow up in that kind of environment, it starts to just change 00:50:00.445 --> 00:50:04.205 their whole relationship with emotional safety or security or trust. 00:50:04.405 --> 00:50:08.905 Because if they feel like they are always on edge trying to see what am I walking 00:50:08.905 --> 00:50:13.785 into, where are the landmines, then what they're not doing is just being and 00:50:13.785 --> 00:50:15.245 doing, not just being a kid. 00:50:15.365 --> 00:50:19.445 They're trying to read a parent's emotions and then what do I need to do to 00:50:19.445 --> 00:50:20.965 calm the mood in the room? 00:50:20.965 --> 00:50:23.745 And when that plays into what it feels like 00:50:23.745 --> 00:50:26.645 to be them their attachment issues come up and so are 00:50:26.645 --> 00:50:30.165 they the peacekeeper do they come in and they need to be a perfectionist 00:50:30.165 --> 00:50:34.505 do they need to have perfect grades are they the comedian but it's whatever 00:50:34.505 --> 00:50:39.545 they're trying to do to manage the emotions or the the overall vibe in the home 00:50:39.545 --> 00:50:45.525 and so that can really make it hard for them to stay or even know what an emotionally 00:50:45.525 --> 00:50:47.885 balanced sense of self is. 00:50:48.725 --> 00:50:53.285 And so this could lead to them having some struggles with anxiety or just the 00:50:53.285 --> 00:50:56.805 way to cope, just the way to show up in a relationship when they get older. 00:50:57.425 --> 00:51:00.505 Let's talk about twisting reality. Because if you think about somebody who always 00:51:00.505 --> 00:51:04.805 sees things through the lens that suits them, even if it means distorting the 00:51:04.805 --> 00:51:09.325 truth, good old confabulation, they have to create the narrative that makes sense to them. 00:51:09.645 --> 00:51:13.765 And that is at the price of the truth at times. 00:51:14.045 --> 00:51:17.845 So narcissistic parents, that's one of the things that they do often. 00:51:17.905 --> 00:51:19.745 That is the gaslighting. 00:51:19.965 --> 00:51:23.045 That it can't be that the parent was at fault. 00:51:23.105 --> 00:51:26.165 It has to be that, well, the kid never reminded them. Or if the kid wouldn't 00:51:26.165 --> 00:51:29.345 have done that, then the parent wouldn't have had to respond the way that they did. 00:51:29.745 --> 00:51:35.065 And just changing the reality. And so often you see examples where a parent 00:51:35.065 --> 00:51:36.505 might say, hey, we never lie. 00:51:36.725 --> 00:51:40.765 But then the doorbell rings and all of a sudden the parent is saying, 00:51:40.805 --> 00:51:42.105 tell them we're not home. 00:51:42.605 --> 00:51:47.325 And the kid is trying to figure out, wait, I'm curious of how this all works. 00:51:47.425 --> 00:51:50.025 But then they can't express that because then they're going to be made, 00:51:50.085 --> 00:51:53.565 just do what I said, or you don't understand, or basically tell them to suppress 00:51:53.565 --> 00:51:54.685 their feelings or their emotions. 00:51:55.714 --> 00:51:58.694 Narcissistic parents might not be great at helping their kids understand 00:51:58.694 --> 00:52:01.454 their true strengths and weaknesses or giving them 00:52:01.454 --> 00:52:05.854 a realistic view of the world and then that leads to kids developing a skewed 00:52:05.854 --> 00:52:09.594 and often negative view of themselves and not being great at making sense of 00:52:09.594 --> 00:52:12.574 the world around them which thing can impact the way that they make decisions 00:52:12.574 --> 00:52:17.294 or they're seeing modeled over and over again in just the smallest of things 00:52:17.294 --> 00:52:21.234 that it we can skew the truth we can skew reality a little bit. 00:52:21.314 --> 00:52:24.414 But then we sure seem to double down on that truth. 00:52:24.594 --> 00:52:28.014 And so then it must be the way that the world works because these are my parents. 00:52:28.114 --> 00:52:29.034 This is what I'm seeing them do. 00:52:29.574 --> 00:52:33.114 Just a couple more here. Lack of empathy. It is really tough when a parent can't 00:52:33.114 --> 00:52:34.954 really tune in to how their kid is feeling. 00:52:35.294 --> 00:52:36.534 And this is again, where if we're 00:52:36.534 --> 00:52:39.334 looking at narcissism versus emotional immaturity, they can look the same. 00:52:39.494 --> 00:52:43.034 But narcissism can be, I just don't, in essence, have time for your feelings 00:52:43.034 --> 00:52:46.934 because what's in it for me and emotional immaturity can be, 00:52:46.934 --> 00:52:49.614 I can't handle your feelings as a kid. 00:52:49.674 --> 00:52:55.214 So you need to knock it off, calm down, be quiet to where the narcissistic parent is. 00:52:55.314 --> 00:52:58.614 I'm not even going to, I'm not aware of these things. I have things that I have 00:52:58.614 --> 00:53:04.274 to do, but both of those show up as a lack of empathy and narcissists and emotionally 00:53:04.274 --> 00:53:07.034 immature people do struggle with empathy, which means they might not respond 00:53:07.034 --> 00:53:08.634 to their kid's emotional needs appropriately. 00:53:09.214 --> 00:53:14.074 And then growing up without really feeling understood and seen and heard and 00:53:14.074 --> 00:53:18.154 having Having no one be curious about you and not feeling supported can lead 00:53:18.154 --> 00:53:22.034 to issues of your own with trust, forming close relationships, 00:53:22.274 --> 00:53:24.814 and at times being sensitive to others' feelings. 00:53:24.934 --> 00:53:27.814 And then at other times, you will be oversensitive to others' feelings. 00:53:28.334 --> 00:53:33.314 And last but not least, just how the impact that a narcissistic parent can have 00:53:33.314 --> 00:53:36.134 on modeling unhealthy relationship patterns. 00:53:36.554 --> 00:53:40.574 Because they often model a kind of love that is about control. 00:53:40.574 --> 00:53:45.774 It's about imbalance, keeping someone just slightly off so that you can maintain 00:53:45.774 --> 00:53:50.734 that control rather than mutual respect and care and curiosity and who are you 00:53:50.734 --> 00:53:54.174 and developing you into your very best self, not the person you are. 00:53:54.778 --> 00:53:59.238 Best self for the parent to make them look better or the best self for the parent 00:53:59.238 --> 00:54:01.118 to make it easier for them. 00:54:01.858 --> 00:54:05.038 And then so kids in these families, they might end up feeling like they are 00:54:05.038 --> 00:54:06.758 there to meet their parents' needs. 00:54:06.958 --> 00:54:11.198 And I think I've got a couple of videos out that talk about how they become, 00:54:11.298 --> 00:54:14.678 in essence, their parents' emotional support animals. 00:54:14.938 --> 00:54:18.018 It's like they almost need to wear a vest and when they go to the store, 00:54:18.218 --> 00:54:20.238 you know, hey, don't touch him. He's working. 00:54:20.358 --> 00:54:23.898 He's He's validating me right now, and he's supporting me in all the things 00:54:23.898 --> 00:54:26.618 that I'm doing. Isn't that right, son and or daughter? 00:54:27.298 --> 00:54:32.138 Yep, you're right, mom and dad. You guys are awesome. So they're emotional support 00:54:32.138 --> 00:54:34.638 animals, not making it more about the kid. 00:54:36.318 --> 00:54:39.838 And that sets them up for a pretty rough time in their own relationships, 00:54:39.918 --> 00:54:44.718 because then they most likely are going to repeat those unhealthy patterns without even realizing it. 00:54:44.798 --> 00:54:48.998 When we go back to the letter that we started with today, I love everything 00:54:48.998 --> 00:54:54.898 about it. the narcissist vaccine, but I can really appreciate too where she's 00:54:54.898 --> 00:54:56.858 saying, would I have liked it to have been different? Absolutely. 00:54:56.918 --> 00:54:58.278 But she didn't know what she didn't know. 00:54:58.778 --> 00:55:03.518 So here we are. And if you are someone that is coming into this awareness or 00:55:03.518 --> 00:55:08.178 waking up to your own narcissistic or emotionally immature behaviors or relationships, 00:55:08.278 --> 00:55:10.378 or you are in one of these relationships. 00:55:11.558 --> 00:55:14.878 Then I really hope that as you hear these things, you don't think, 00:55:14.918 --> 00:55:16.498 oh my gosh, I'm horrible. 00:55:16.698 --> 00:55:21.238 I'm I'm creating this, I'm doing this to my kids because the reality is we're 00:55:21.238 --> 00:55:23.318 all going through this for the very first time. 00:55:23.498 --> 00:55:27.218 And here you are. And you've, again, if you make it to the end of one of these 00:55:27.218 --> 00:55:31.618 podcasts, you are doing the work and you are becoming more aware and just start 00:55:31.618 --> 00:55:34.398 to start to internalize these things in a good way. 00:55:34.518 --> 00:55:37.758 Because now you're starting to make more sense of things. You're a little bit 00:55:37.758 --> 00:55:42.478 more aware and it's still going to be hard to implement or put things into action until it's not. 00:55:42.578 --> 00:55:47.918 It's a process, a slow, gradual process, sometimes way too slow. 00:55:48.538 --> 00:55:49.738 Much slower than we would like. 00:55:49.838 --> 00:55:53.238 But you're going to get there. You just keep on doing, keep on being. 00:55:53.458 --> 00:55:57.078 You didn't know what you didn't know. Now you know it, not necessarily doing 00:55:57.078 --> 00:56:00.058 it, or maybe you're already to the point where you're doing it more than you don't. 00:56:00.198 --> 00:56:05.598 But eventually you will become and you will be that emotionally consistent person 00:56:05.598 --> 00:56:07.638 that is taking Take an action on the things that matter. 00:56:07.798 --> 00:56:13.598 And that is what will lead your kids into that promised land of secure attachment. 00:56:13.978 --> 00:56:17.398 And if you have adult kids, never too late. 00:56:17.538 --> 00:56:21.118 You can, it sounds self-serving, right? Share this episode with them. 00:56:21.198 --> 00:56:24.058 But you're going to figure this out. Anyway, thank you so much. 00:56:24.198 --> 00:56:26.818 You can reach out if you have questions, thoughts. I love your examples. 00:56:26.998 --> 00:56:30.098 I really do. If you want to be part of the Women's Private Facebook group or 00:56:30.098 --> 00:56:37.498 now the men's course, the men's group. group, it may start before the next one 00:56:37.498 --> 00:56:38.538 of these episodes is released. 00:56:38.638 --> 00:56:43.438 So men, reach out to me as well at contact at tonyoverbay.com and have an amazing 00:56:43.438 --> 00:56:46.718 week and we'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.