Music.
Episode 103 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch podcast, and a few others.
And just shoot me a note, go sign up for the newsletter, but contact me if you
want to be a part of the women or men's private group.
And I would love it if you would also subscribe to the premium QA episode of
Waking Up to Narcissism, the questions and answers, and please continue to send
in your questions and answers too. That would be amazing.
And you can also send me your stories and your poems and in your songs.
And people really are so kind. Quick tangent, there are things that you never
thought you would see as a therapist.
And I'm not even talking the stories that you hear and not trying to be dramatic,
but things that you regularly see that you just maybe didn't anticipate.
Here's a random example that actually happened yesterday that people tend to
burp a fair amount when they talk a lot, especially I think when they talk fast.
And the most simple answer would would be things like excessive air intake.
But fun fact, acid reflux, that a lot of people that are coming in are stressed.
Stress can also deplete the production of substances called,
and forgive me if I pronounce this incorrectly, but prostaglandins,
which also I think was one of the evil people in Star Trek.
But those normally protect the stomach from the effects of acid.
And this could increase your perception of discomfort.
And so stress coupled with exhaustion sometimes might even present more body
changes that lead to this increased acid reflux.
There's a thing called rumination syndrome.
You can have rumination syndrome if you burp and regurgitate some undigested food in your mouth.
And I know people do this from time to time, but there are people that have
a pretty regular condition of that.
And when they do, they in essence spit up undigested or partially digested food after most meals.
And it's thought to be an unconscious habit involving the contraction of the
muscles around the abdomen.
So if you're burping alongside other Other GI symptoms such as bloating or abdominal
pain or constipation, those sort of things, they could also be irritable bowel syndrome.
And one study found that repetitive belching is a frequent symptom of the condition of IBS.
And IBS happens often and that vibe of the body keeps the score when people
have been in stressful homes growing up.
Sometimes people this time of year are on their new year, new you diet,
and certain vegetables produce a tremendous amount of gas during digestion.
That's my excuse for not eating more of them because my arch enemy kale is on
that list, as well as things like carrots and cauliflower and parsnips and radishes
and rutabaga, whatever that is. But that was quite the tangent, to say the least.
But I also find it endearing when people reach out and ask if I have certain
topics planned out ahead of time or lined up for the podcast.
And I do. And I appreciate those who ask because I do really appreciate hearing from you.
I have a couple of things that I would love your feedback on.
One is that I'm working on a larger episode or series of episodes on navigating
faith journeys or a faith crisis.
And I've done a lot of podcasts, especially over on the virtual couch,
about faith crisis and faith journey.
And at times, like actually now, a large percentage of my clientele are in some
sort of a faith transition or deconstruction or crisis.
Because often one's waking up to their own thoughts or feelings or beliefs or
getting out of controlling situations or relationships comes with a,
wait, what do I think? And how do I feel?
And it is some of the most satisfying work that I do, truly.
But if you have questions about that or examples of emotionally immature or
narcissistic people who have impacted your faith or faith journey,
I would love to hear your story as well.
And I also have some content that I'm developing around the emotional whiplash.
And you'll hear a little bit of that today in today's episode.
But emotional consistency is a large part of my personal practice.
And one of the things that many people wake up to in their relationship is how,
how can we be stressed about finances and eat top ramen one night,
and then the next day, the emotionally immature,
narcissistic husband or wife, then makes a ginormous large purchase,
and then gaslights anybody who will listen as to why that purchase had to happen.
I had to do it to help somebody else out, or they They had a spiritual impression
to do it, et cetera, et cetera.
Or how a spouse can be the most beautiful creature that walked the face of the earth.
But then if they say no to a partner or reject them, then they are not fit to,
and this is a quote, wash the jockstrapped after a pickup game of dodgeball in hell itself.
That, my friends, is unfortunately, again, not a made-up scenario,
but one that was recently shared with me,
and it's hard to trust the person making the jockstrap-in-hell comment if you're
the person who just minutes earlier was searching the internet for modeling
agents because of how you felt after they told you how amazing you looked.
So I would appreciate your examples of emotional whiplash as well.
So today's episode happened thanks to the superpower of impulsivity,
because I came in to finish up some filming on my magnetic marriage course over
the weekend, and I just just checked, checked email, looked on the internet
for a minute before I started to record.
And I just jumped on the private women's Facebook group. And I read a post from
a woman who was asking about a book and if anybody had read it.
And she talked about a passage of the book that her husband had used in essence
against her. Those are my words.
And I read the post and then immediately had some strong thoughts and reactions to the quote.
And I got on the Facebook group and I did a live video, which turned into this episode.
So you might notice in a couple of places that that there isn't necessarily a smooth of a flow.
And maybe there's not typically a smooth flow. But I also want to be completely
open that I have not read the full book that we discuss.
The book is called Rethinking Narcissism, The Secret to Recognizing and Coping
with Narcissists by Craig Malkin.
And so while I spend time dissecting this one page of his book,
the book has some amazing reviews.
And I believe that there is no scarcity mindset in the mental health world.
And what helps somebody may not necessarily help somebody else.
And while I do do not know Craig. I read a lot about him and I really like the work he's done.
And he has an amazing bio and this page and one part in particular of his book
truly are just serving as my muse for this episode.
But I am not saying one shouldn't read the book because that would be pretty
silly because I haven't read it myself and his body of work is so solid.
I would actually love to have him come on the podcast if this makes it back
to his people. So with that said, let's get to today's episode.
Has anybody read this book and have thoughts? And it's the book Rethinking Narcissism.
But she said, my husband has been reading it and now believes that if I would
have shared what was happening by telling him how it made me feel,
he would have recognized the problems.
And he also has now weaponized the passage that she posts in the comments.
And he said to her today, this is what you do. You tell me all the things I
do, but you don't tell me how you feel.
And I love what she said because she said the reason I know he was referring
to this passage is because I saw him highlighting and underlining it.
And I went back later to look at what he was so excited about.
And he's completely wrong.
She said, I spent, I love this phrase. I spent the last spring sharing the crap
out of my feelings only to have them dismissed, used against me,
or parroted, and that she was wrong for sharing her feelings then too.
And so then I read the passage, and I thought it was really interesting, and I'll share that now.
I've heard of this book. So the book is Rethinking Narcissism. It's Oprah's book club.
So it got a lot of coverage, and it's by Dr.
Craig Malkin, clinical psychologist, lecturer from, I want to make the joke
now, what does he know though, Harvard Medical School.
But the passage in the book says, regardless of which signs they display,
people who chronically avoid acknowledging feelings scuttle any hopes of deeper
intimacy and true reciprocal relationships.
Their two too internally preoccupied with their own fears or judgments to accept
the gift of genuine sharing.
That's what's so emotionally crippling about unhealthy narcissism.
It leaves people so myopically focused on their own sense of importance that
they may as well be having an affair with themselves.
The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe
the emotional impact they're having on you.
Many people mistakenly think that they've done this by admonishing a narcissist
or rattling off what they've done wrong, but there are more effective ways to
reach them and to affect change.
I've had a lot of thoughts on
this one and there's so much there of more effective ways to reach them.
So that's assuming that you can reach the emotionally immature narcissistic
person and to affect change rather than the more that you try to engage with
them, the more that they now have these new buttons to push.
We're going to talk about that. One of the main things I think is the challenge
in this is out of my five rules of interacting with a narcissist or an emotionally immature person.
And I don't have a cool name for what that is. So I finally came up with a name
and I could not help myself.
And I thought it was hilarious at the time. Now it feels a little bit silly,
but I wrote as if it were a carnival barker that is barking up a storm about
these five concepts of interacting with a narcissist or emotionally immature person.
So I am going to read this and I may end up deleting this whole thing and coming
out and saying it really generically, because I will tell you right now,
I was not a high school drama kid, that's for sure, because I'm not going to be able to sell this.
But here's what I wrote, and you'll see in the context my good intentions.
So, step right up, ladies and gentlemen, gather around and prepare to be amazed,
astounded, and enlightened.
Welcome to the grand unveiling of the marvel of the age, the wonder of wisdom,
the spectacle of sagacity, Dr.
Tony's five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense.
Do you dare to delve in the depths of the human psyche? Are you ready to unlock
the secrets of dealing with the most baffling behaviors known to mankind.
Behold, within these walls lies the key to your liberation from the labyrinth
of emotional immaturity and narcissistic nuance.
So you can witness the spectacular, the extraordinary, the almost magical mysteries unveiled.
Step aside and let Dr. Tony know Tony is not a real doctor, but he is a licensed
marriage and family therapist.
But people have written the initials of DR, as in doctor, on his checks.
And one time, he didn't correct the person and the bank cashed the check.
So using narcissistic math, he could technically be called a doctor by somebody
who doesn't know that he's in fact not a doctor.
Back to your regularly scheduled carnival barker. So let Tony,
Dr. Tony be your guide on this carnival of cognitive clarity.
Gaze upon the dazzling displays of emotional empowerment.
Marvel at the mystifying methods that will transform confusion into crystal clear comprehension.
But wait, there is more. Not only will you learn the art of emotional resilience
by raising your very own baseline of emotions to heights that you have never, ever seen before.
So now maybe you can see where we're going. There's raising your emotional baseline
that you weren't even aware that you weren't aware of, I might add.
But you shall also master the spectacle of spotting gaslighting gibberish.
And be prepared to gasp in awe as you learn to swiftly sidestep the sinister
snares of unhealthy conversations before they lure you into a quicksand-like
stick that you will feel never to be unstuck.
Applaud in amazement as you discover the grandeur of setting gargantuan boundaries.
And for the grand finale, behold the most miraculous revelation,
the secret understanding that epiphanies, yes, even those very aha moments,
those sparkling diamonds of realization,
cannot be delivered to the emotionally immature or narcissistic person in your
life, no matter how How many four-leaf clovers you find, how many leprechauns
you catch, or how many genies that you rescue from bottles.
Nay, the epiphany or the aha moment must come from within the very mind of the
narcissist themselves. Wait, is that even possible?
Well, there you go again. That, my dear friend, is in fact a them problem.
So step up, step in, be part of this once-in-a-lifetime extravaganza. That is Dr.
Tony's, here's my unveiling of the name, Five Foolproof Formulas for Navigating
Narcissistic Nonsense, because I love alliteration.
This is the grand unveiling because that fifth thing, the fifth formula of navigating
narcissistic nonsense is going to be such a key in this book of revisiting narcissism.
And especially that passage that I shared earlier.
And I think I wanted to share that because I finally gave it a name.
But even more so, I continue to work with people who struggle with that fifth
formula of continually believing that if you say it right, whatever it is,
that you will be able to deliver that person the aha moment,
or the epiphany that will finally get them to understand all the things that
you've been doing or trying to do in the relationship.
And then it will finally be easy and wonderful and you will both feel better
and you can just get back to that and they live happily ever after version of
the story that you've always wanted and dreamed of and that the movies of childhood said was a thing.
Because now maybe you can see that if we go back to the quote of the only way
to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional
impact that they're having on you.
Many people mistakenly think that they've done this by admonishing a narcissist
or rattling off what they've done wrong.
There are more effective ways to reach them and to affect change.
So I worry that that is very close to that definition of giving the narcissist
the aha moment or the epiphany.
And I am very confident that that is something that by the time somebody has
gotten to the place where they recognize that you can't give them the aha moment
or the epiphany, it's because you've tried so many times.
So then reading this book that is part of Oprah's book club,
which probably has a lot of sales, I worry that it's going to be a real challenge
for the pathologically kind.
So let me go through those five things again. And then I want to talk more about
this quote in particular, and we're going to break it down. The first in the
five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense is raising that
emotional baseline, prioritizing self-care because you have to be in the best
emotional state possible.
And that is crucial for effectively interacting with the narcissist or the emotionally
immature person in your life.
If known, I've got my second one, get your PhD in gaslighting because you have
to educate yourself about gaslighting techniques and the dynamics because understanding
that will help you recognize and counteract all the manipulative behaviors to
help you start to at least head down that path of maybe I'm not crazy,
even though I may feel that way often.
The third thing is exiting unhealthy conversations, learning to identify and
withdraw from unproductive and detrimental conversations because those are the
interactions that often lead to self doubt and a loss of your own self identity.
And I put these in order for a reason because that self-care needs to be there at all times.
Understanding gaslighting is really important because I never realized how many
people didn't know about it until you learn about it.
And now I know that it's a much more talked about concept.
But then once you're aware of it, now you are aware that these conversations
are unproductive. So then I need to get out of them.
And then setting a healthy boundary, understanding the difference between a
boundary and an ultimatum.
I've been trying to go big on that lately, that boundaries are about what you
will do for your well-being, not about controlling the narcissist behavior.
And I think that might come into play here in a little bit too.
But the boundary is a me thing.
The ultimatum is you need to stop doing that.
Because if I'm doing that, if I'm
saying that to an immature narcissistic person, I just challenged them.
And so it's in essence the concept of reactance where I just told them what
if I try to tell my brain don't think about a blue snake, I just thought about it.
So if I'm telling them don't say that in front of the kids again,
then they're saying, I guess I have to say this in front of the kids again.
But that fifth thing, the main thing, is that the epiphanies have to come from
within, accepting that you cannot force that aha moment or the epiphany in the narcissist.
And then realizations and changes that those things have to come from them,
not from external pressure.
And I think that's one of the things I think is a challenge to the quote from
this book, because by providing the external pressure, then they may know how
to get out of that external pressure, either by making you feel worse or then
them saying, man, you know what, you're right.
Thanks for sharing that with me. That makes so much sense. which then gets us out of that moment.
So now I turn back to the women's private Facebook group for people navigating
the relationships with the narcissistic, fill in the blank, could be a spouse, adult, child, boss.
I'd say parent is currently trending, could be a church leader,
a church entity, a job, an aggressive pet.
I'm joking. But they're in this thread and I'm so grateful for the support that
people have given each other in the group in general, but this thread has been
been pretty phenomenal.
So, after the person started by saying that, has anybody read this book and
it's Rethinking Narcissism by Dr.
Craig Malkin and has any thoughts because her husband's been reading it and
then he highlighted the passage and said, if you would only share your thoughts
and feelings, then things would be different.
Let's deep dive into that passage that was highlighted and that we talked about.
So, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe
the emotional impact that they're having on you.
At first glance, that advice sounds very practical. That in a healthy relationship,
you need to express your needs, your wants, and maybe it's true if we didn't
see that modeled when we were young, that we don't really know how to do that,
or it makes us very nervous.
So, when I talk about that people don't know what they don't know,
and we all start out as emotionally immature until we're not,
that a lot of times, that is a great concept when somebody just doesn't know
what they don't know, but where there's curiosity in the relationship,
there's a little bit more emotional maturity and and emotional consistency,
because then yeah, you can express your needs,
and now you're giving that person
an opportunity to join you on the shared experience, to be more curious.
If I read that sentence again, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly
and explicitly describe the emotional impact that they're having on you.
But let's go back to the fifth formula, that you'll never cause them to have
the aha moment or the epiphany.
And there's a really key piece in that that quote that I think is so, so fascinating.
The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact.
What we have is the subtle contradiction that I think is really important to
understand, and that is that the only way, and very often.
Let me take a step back and then just talk about the book itself,
Rethinking Narcissism, The Secret to Recognizing and Coping with Narcissists
by Craig Malkin. Now, who is Craig Malkin?
Again, a Harvard Medical School psychologist, Huffington Post blogger.
So I know this person is well-schooled, and I went on to read some of his bio
on Goodreads, And it sounds like he talks about having a narcissistic mom and
he's had the clinical expertise for over 20 years, 25 years,
and he understands personality disorders.
And so there is no part of me that's saying, what does this guy know?
But he says he addresses the narcissism epidemic by illuminating the spectrum
of narcissism, identifying ways to control the trait, and explaining how too
little of it may be a bad thing.
So from my lens, and that's where I'm saying this is a me thing,
the illuminating the spectrum of narcissism, I love that.
Narcissistic personality disorder to extremely emotional immaturity.
But the interesting thing is identifying ways to control the trait.
Not quite sure if that means trying to control the trait in the relationship
or in yourself, but then explaining how too little of it might be a bad thing.
And this is where I go often on the concept of healthy ego.
And that comes off of Eleanor Greenberg's work around healthy narcissism.
And so all credit to Eleanor Greenberg in this example, but I turned to an article
that she has on Psychology Today called The Truth About Narcissistic Personality
Disorder, which is such a solid article.
And she says, unfortunately, in the English language, the word narcissism has
come to mean two entirely different things,
depending on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis as a narcissistic
personality disorder or informally as a synonym for positive self-regard,
which I think is something that I don't think most anyone these days would look
at narcissism as a synonym for positive self-regard.
But she says, I'm often asked, isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and
normal? And she said, I would like to clarify that distinction before I go on.
Eleanor talks about normal, healthy narcissism, and I am taking full ownership
of replacing the word narcissism with ego.
So that would then read, this is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that
is based on the person's actual accomplishments.
It's relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their self-image,
the successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real
life obstacles. Because it's based on real achievements.
Normal, healthy ego is relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks
that we all experience as we go through life.
Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in
our real self-interest, and is associated with genuine self-respect.
One can think of it as something that is inside of us. So in the development
of healthy ego, which I think is a me thing, it's to the individual,
I can't understand where Dr.
Craig's going in this book of being able to express oneself and almost maybe
having this assumption that the population is, well, I can't make assumptions
for where he's coming from.
So my opinion is that the people that are probably in this spot are those who
are interacting with people that are not necessarily coming from a place of healthy ego,
because then we would be looking at more of that person receiving the feedback.
If I go back to Eleanor's definition, saying that because of their real life
achievements, normal healthy ego is impervious to minor slights and setbacks
that we experience as we go through life.
And it's something inside of us. So if the emotionally immature or narcissist
is reacting and big reactions to get rid of their discomfort to try to put the
person they're communicating with in the one down position,
then I just worry that we're not talking about healthy narcissism.
And then the opposite of that, Eleanor says, is pathological defensive narcissism.
This is a defense against feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of
arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that he or she is special.
Inside, the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.
And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.
One small pinprick will deflate it. This makes the person hypersensitive to
minor slights that somebody with healthy narcissism or healthy ego would not even notice.
Us. Instead, someone with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded,
frequently takes any form of disagreement as a serious criticism,
and is likely to lash out and devalue anyone who they think is disagreeing with them.
They are constantly on guard trying to protect their status.
Pathological narcissism then, or pathological defensive narcissism,
can be thought of as a protective armor that then is on the outside of the person.
So this is why when I personally talk about standing in my healthy ego,
it's because of the work that I have done personally.
And part of of that work, if you are developing a healthy ego or sense of self,
is not needing the external validation.
So if somebody is telling you that they don't like what you're doing,
you say, I appreciate that input and thank you.
We'll talk about this later in the episode, but from a differentiated standpoint,
then I actually want the feedback because I'll take a look at it,
but it doesn't mean that I have to react, tell you you're wrong, defend myself.
And then when somebody does not have a healthy ego, then they're more in that
emotionally immature category or what what Eleanor called pathological defensive narcissism,
where any criticism is like that pinprick and it will deflate them and they
will lash out and defend their fragile ego.
Craig goes on to say, what is narcissism? One of the fastest rising searches
on Google and articles on the topic routinely go viral, yet the word narcissist
seems to mean something different every time it's uttered.
People hurl the word as an insult at anybody who offends them,
and it's becoming so ubiquitous, in fact, that it's lost any clear meaning.
And the only certainty these days is that it's bad to be a narcissist. Really bad.
Inspiring the same kind of rolling queasiness we feel when we hear the words sexist or racist.
He said that's especially troubling news for millennials, the people born after
1980 who have been branded the most narcissistic generation ever.
So then he goes on to say that in rethinking narcissism, readers will learn
that there's far more to narcissism than its reductive invective would imply.
The truth is that we all fall on the spectrum somewhere between utter selflessness.
So I like that where he's talking about the pathologically kind on the one side
and then arrogance and grandiosity on the other.
And he said a healthy middle exhibits a strong sense of self on the far end lies sociopathy.
And then Malkin deconstructs healthy from unhealthy narcissism and offers clear
step by step guidance on how to promote healthy narcissism in our partners.
Partners that's the one that I worry about a bit our children
and ourselves so let me jump in here and before we
get back to that sentence or that part of the book and
I'm going to dive a little bit more into the contradiction that says
the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe
the emotional impact they're having on you already acknowledge that at first
glance that does seem practical but it is that subtle contradiction I think
that's important to understand because the statement itself and if Craig Malkin
ever listens to this this is not me be saying,
I found one sentence in your book that is crazy.
I know that in my book about addiction, there's some straight up typos that
I really thought I caught and I thought the copy editor would catch as well.
So this isn't me saying, okay, you believe this, but I believe I would imagine this isn't an error.
But in that, the only way we imply, so when we say the only way we imply that
this is the exclusive single method to achieving something.
So when he again says the the only way to reach them very often is to clearly
and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having on you.
I think that's the big challenge that people are talking about in the group, which I agree.
But that logical inconsistency that when you hear something that says the only
way we imply that this is the single method to achieving something that it sounds
like it's pretty absolute.
But then when we add very often right after the only way, then it introduces
an element of frequency, not certainty.
And it's like saying the only key to this door is the red red key,
but very often the blue key also works.
And I think when you put it in that context, now we can start to see that,
oh man, we're setting the table for some inconsistency with somebody that already
is really inconsistent.
Because what that causes us to feel like is, okay, well then if other keys work
other than the red key, then that means the red key isn't the only one, right?
I feel like that might actually give a little bit of false hope to the person
who is still so desperate to figure out the relationship and take on the responsibility
responsibility, so that they can fix it. Again, the pathologically kind person.
Now, there's a quote from an author named Brandon Sanderson that I think is
really, really interesting.
And I took this quote a little bit out of context because it's from a book that
has a character, I believe, called Alcatraz and evil librarians and these sort of things.
There's a part of this quote that I cannot stop thinking about.
And the quote says, because if the terrible things that happen in life are all
your fault, then there's still the chance that you'll be able to stop future
terrible things from happening.
Sometimes blaming yourself feels better than admitting that the fate of the
world may be out of your control.
Now, let me frame in context why I think that quote is pretty interesting to
discuss right after this quote from the book by Dr.
Craig Malkin about narcissism.
Let's start back with the pathologically kind person who is in this relationship
with the narcissist or the emotionally immature individual.
And then now let's take that quote from Brandon Sanderson. So,
in that context, the pathologically kind person, I believe, often takes on the
burden of responsibility for the difficulties in the relationship.
I think that's not too big of a stretch.
And this is similar to the sentiment that is expressed in that quote by Brandon
Sanderson, that by assuming that the problems are their own fault.
So sometimes I worry that if the pathologically kind person is then assuming,
okay, this must be a me thing, I can figure this out.
Because if they can just find the right words or the right actions or behaviors
to cause that aha moment, or the epiphany in their partner, then they feel like
they can fix the relationship.
Relationship and again while that belief sounds amazing and
that stems from a place of hope and in a place of a
desire to help that i worry that it can be more of
a defense mechanism against feeling powerless because it can feel pretty powerless
in a relationship whether it's with a partner a parent any anything a boss because
admitting that the i will say going back to this quote that the fate of the
relationship is out of your control that can feel pretty daunting and it can
lead to feelings of helplessness.
And it's often more comforting to believe that with enough effort that you can influence change.
And then this is where that correlation with that Brandon Sanderson quote becomes evident.
And before I go on, but a long time ago, I did a run at my kid's school for
six years, 24 hours around a track each year, raise money for the schools.
And it was so much fun. And I would go get a lot of press and the morning of
the band would play Rocky and they They would bring me out in a limousine.
And then for 24 hours, I would run around the track and the kids would come out and run.
And we'd have booths and the P classes would come out at night.
It became a very big community event.
And I just ran around a track and kids would run with me and they would camp
out on the infield of the track.
And everything about it was just fun. And we raised a lot of money.
Every year we raised money to go to, at that time, I live in California,
there were a lot of budget cuts that were coming.
And so they were threatening to cut the budgets of everything from sports and
music and all kinds of programs in the schools. So I thought,
okay, this is something I can do.
And I just, I loved it. Six years of that, a new PTA group came into power and
I was told that, hey, they don't want to do it anymore. They think it's too much work.
And I remember just feeling very,
very confused and hurt because I was the one doing a lot of the work.
I was doing the press and I was going and promoting it at all the schools and
talking about it on social media. media.
And I felt like the people that had been in charge of it or had worked with me really enjoyed it.
And again, raised a lot of money and the kids talk about it.
So I just, I loved that the whole community impact of it. But then I was told
that it wasn't going to happen anymore.
And I ended up setting up a meeting with administration of the school.
And the reason I bring this up now is not looking for any kind of validation.
This concept of feeling like that something could be completely out of control,
that the fate of the relationship is out of our control, it does feel really powerless.
And I remember sitting in front of a new administrator from the school,
from the district, and they were saying, yeah, it looks like we're not going to do it anymore.
And I was saying, I hear you. And I understand I've been told that it's because it's a lot of work.
And I was saying, we do all the work. And the administrator just blank stared
me and just said, yeah, they say it's too much work.
And I was He was saying, man, I hear you. So let me lay out the whole process
again. It's the guy doing the running and the promoting and look at the books
and how much money we've made.
And so it's okay. And he just was saying, yeah, it just looks like it's too much work.
And I remember, and I lost my cool. And I look back on that now and I let my
button get pressed because I even just said, I feel like I'm talking to some
sort of politician here. Are you even hearing me?
And I felt like, oh, he wasn't. He was just staring at me.
And it did. did. It felt like that, wait, do I have no control here?
And literally as the person who would run around the track and raise the money
and go get the promotions and all the, at that point, just the community aspect of it alone.
And it didn't matter. Didn't matter what I said or did.
I was not going to cause this person to have that aha moment or the epiphany.
And it really bothered me for a long time.
But I bring that up because it just speaks to broader human tendency to prefer
more of a sense of control, even if it means shouldering undue blame.
So I think if we go go back into the relationship in the case of the pathologically
kind person, blaming themselves for the issues on the relationship or they can
find it, they'll read the right book, they will listen to the podcast,
they'll do whatever they can to then try to get a change from their more narcissistic
or emotionally immature person than it does, it feels like that it will give
us more of a sense of agency.
Because it suggests that we can change something about ourselves or the approach
and that will prevent these future, as Brandon Sanderson's quote said,
terrible things, conflicts, emotional hurt, problems or hurt with the kids.
And in this scenario, I know that it was a little bit of my ego,
my sense of pride, but it was the community, the raising money for the schools.
It was so much that we had built for six years and that there was nothing I
could do to stop that from happening in the relationship with the community.
So I feel like that why I go back to this Brandon Sanderson quote,
and let me read it again, because of the terrible things that happen in life
are all your fault, then there's still the chance that you'll be able to stop
future terrible things from happening.
Sometimes blaming yourself feels better than admitting that the fate of the
world may be out of your control.
So the fate of the world, the fate of the relationship, the fate of this 24
hour run, whatever that looks like, that at some point it is,
it feels, it can feel helpless.
It can feel hopeless and scary, but when we get to this place of acceptance,
then it's what do we do with it? because we just want, we do,
we still desperately want control and even those of us that want,
we'll call it the good kind of control.
But that whole mindset itself though is, it comes with a bit of a double-edged
sword because while it provides a desire for a semblance of control,
it will also trap you into a cycle of self-blame and then you might continue to.
Fruitlessly attempt to change a situation that is largely, if not entirely,
driven by the narcissist assist or the emotionally immature person's behavior,
which is completely out of their control.
In the scenario that I'm describing about this run, I went on to find out a
lot of things that were happening behind the scenes later that I don't really
think had a lot as much to do with me, but I didn't know what I didn't know at that time.
And I think recognizing this dynamic is so crucial for the pathologically kind
person because it helps you understand that while your intentions are good and
solid and gold and can even be the right thing to do, and your efforts are commendable,
that the responsibility for the narcissist's behavior and the relationship's
dysfunction does not rest solely on your shoulders.
So admitting that some of the aspects of life, including the actions of others,
are out of our control, I think starts to be a huge step toward acceptance in
the grand scheme of things.
So now if we look back on this quote from the book, which I think I'll probably
read a lot over and over again today, when it says,
The only way to reach them, very often, I've already pointed out the inconsistency
there, is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having
on you, as in trying to express this to them.
And many people mistakenly think they've done this by admonishing a narcissist
or rattling off what they've done wrong.
And I admit that's where we'll talk a little bit more about the ultimatum.
Here's what you did versus a boundary of if you continue to do this,
then this is what I will do differently.
Because that puts more of the power in your hands.
He says, but there are more effective ways to reach them, which again,
reaching them and to affect change. I will affect change.
And we'll talk about differentiation here in a little bit. I think that's probably
one of the bigger ways to affect change. change.
So, if we go back to the fifth formula stating that you cannot force that epiphany
onto somebody who is narcissistic or emotionally immature,
that the realization has to come from them, then this quote from the book suggests
that describing their emotional impact on you.
That if you are saying that that is the only way that you can impact the relationship,
you know at this point that that isn't the case.
And probably more often than not, Not those attempts are met with resistance,
dismissal from the narcissist or the emotionally immature, because this is where
we start to recognize the things that they don't know that they don't know.
Might be that lack of empathy, the lack of self-awareness to recognize or accept this impact.
It's the, no, tell me I want to know, but then I'm not going to,
I don't want to know that.
It's part of that trauma bond of you're asking the person who can deliver you
the punishment, but also the reward.
And right now it's a guess on which way that they're going to respond.
On, although probably have a pretty good idea.
So what does that mean? It's just another reminder, a good one.
I should have smiled when I said that, that dealing with narcissistic and emotionally
immature people is very complex and that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach.
So expressing your feelings is important and believing that it's the only way
to create change in the narcissist behavior is going to lead to frustration
because it's essential to recognize the limits of our influence on others,
especially those who are emotionally immature or who have narcissistic traits and tendencies.
I really think understanding, that's why I liked it in that sentence,
finding that logical inconsistency, that it helps align our expectations and
strategies when we're interacting with emotionally immature narcissistic people.
And so, then it can just start to become another tool in our kit as we start
to navigate relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.
Because this is where now, cliche warning, the change starts within.
Sometimes our power is going to come in accepting what we can and can't do.
So, now I'm going to go back to the quote from the book and then we'll talk
about some of the responses from the group and then I want to touch on differentiation.
So, it's on page 112, by the way, you have that Rethinking Narcissism book.
Regardless of which, this is what it started with, regardless of which signs
they display, people who chronically avoid acknowledging feelings scuttle any
hopes of deeper intimacy and true reciprocal relationships.
They're too internally preoccupied with their own fears or judgment to accept
the gift of genuine sharing.
Now, that is a beautiful statement when we are talking about the we don't know what we don't know.
And both people are trying to be curious about the relationship and with curiosity
about what was it like with you growing up and what was it like with me growing up?
And then there isn't a judgment or shame or blame or withdrawal because there's
a a lot of truth there that I know that I have avoided expressing my own hopes
and feelings and desires because it's scary.
Knowing that that's scary and then not trying to just blast those things out
in an unhealthy way, it allows you to start to self-confront with your own discomfort.
Why is it scary for me to express the things that I would love in a friendship
or in a relationship? Well, it's because I didn't get those things as a kid.
I mean, it can be that simple.
What he says is in the book, that's what's so emotionally crippling about unhealthy
narcissism is it leaves people so myopically focused of their own sense of importance
that they may as well be having an affair with themselves.
Now, I think it's a little bit challenging because I feel like there's a lot
of blame there or maybe a feeling of shame is that it leaves people myopically
focused on their own sense of importance.
And yet, that I think if somebody's in this position, that it isn't myopically
focused on their own self-importance, but more of the pathologically kind person
focused, maybe myopically focused on the what's wrong with me.
I think it's the exact opposite of the focus on their importance so that they
aren't willing to share.
It's focusing on the what in the heck is wrong with me. I've tried to share
a bunch of different times and it clearly doesn't work and I end up feeling less than and worse.
So then he says again, yeah, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly
and explicitly describe the emotional impact that they're having on you.
Many people mistakenly think they've done this by admonishing a narcissist or
rattling off what they've done wrong, but there are more effective ways to reach
them and to affect change. So I know I tangented a little bit there,
but I want to talk a little bit more about that sentence.
The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe
the emotional impact that they're having on you.
Because we've already identified that that contains that logical inconsistency
that having that words that the phrase the only way alongside very often,
because that only way implies exclusivity and absoluteness suggesting that there
is no other method to achieve that goal of reaching them.
Them, but then adding very often back to that frequency aspect that,
well, sometimes it's going to work.
But that contradiction, let me go back to that.
If it's the only way, it should be the only method under all circumstances, not just very often.
And when I am working with emotionally immature men or women,
one of the biggest problems is, in fact, in my opinion, emotional inconsistency.
Because we're talking about emotional inconsistency, and this is something that
I'm just so fixated on as I try to create more material for the men's group that's soon to come.
And it is that concept of emotional inconsistency.
So the sentence, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly
describe the emotional impact that they're having on you has the logical inconsistency
stems from the use of the phrase, the only way right beside very often.
So the only way that implies exclusivity and absoluteness, it's the only way
that this will work is to express your feelings.
So that suggests that there is no other method to achieve the goal of reaching them.
But then when he adds very often, that's what introduces a frequency aspect.
Because the implication there is that this method is usually effective of expressing
your needs to the narcissist, but not always the sole method.
So that's what starts to create this contradiction. Because if it's the only way,
then it should be the only method under all circumstances,
not just very often because now we've set
the table for the concept of emotional inconsistency so
then what we're saying here is that saying that something that inconsistently
might work sometimes with somebody who
is pretty much always inconsistent is expressing
your feelings and you should do it sometimes even though that's the part where
the person that is reading the book that's listening to this podcast i'm assuming
you have been trying to express your feelings for a very long time and it most
likely has not worked or else you wouldn't be continuing to look for more books
and more podcasts and more support.
So I think hopefully that one made a little more sense that the inconsistency,
even in the data that he's expressing,
that the most successful way to do this some of the time is this.
That's something that at this
point, the pathologically kind person is not going to be as effective.
I want to say it's not going to help because trust me, I know that the author,
that Craig knows what he knows and I don't know what I don't know.
And he and I have two completely different experiences. experiences.
One, I have yet to have a Oprah-approved book for her book club.
Or let's go to grad schools. He went to Harvard. And this is going to be,
I wrote some notes on this next part. This is going to be a fun one for me. He went to Harvard.
My grad school experience was the
University of Phoenix. And I used to be embarrassed to even share that.
And when I would speak, which is still often, I would have the person introduce
me by saying something like this.
Tony attended Kansas State University where he tried to play baseball,
but ultimately returned home and received his bachelor's degree from the University
of Utah in mass communications, and you received a master's degree in counseling.
Now, what is missing is that it was a decade later, and it was from the University of Phoenix.
It was in person, but it was night school. And I did graduate with a 3.92 because
I loved it. But Harvard sounds so much better.
And I also know that I have now spent nearly two decades of seeing a lot of clients.
And that's where I feel like I can say with a healthy ego that I've seen more
than I think a lot of therapists during this span,
because I made made some crummy business decisions that allowed me,
well, let's say required me to spend a lot of time in the chair,
take a large variety of clients with a lot of consistency.
But I am so grateful for that experience because it now has me speaking on a
podcast about narcissism and emotional immaturity and feeling very confident
about the experiences that I've had personally and on my couch,
my own thoughts and opinions on this topic while making absolute space to know
that I might might be overlooking something here,
primarily in the fact that I haven't read Craig's book.
I haven't read the entire book, and I know that that would help provide more context.
But so then back to the sentence, to resolve this inconsistency,
the sentence could be rephrased to either commit to the absoluteness of the
method or acknowledge its frequent but not exclusive effectiveness.
For example, if it said something like, a very effective way to reach them,
being a narcissist, is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact
that they're having on you.
So then we're acknowledging the frequent effectiveness. this.
Or on the other side of that would be the only way to reach them is to clearly
and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having on you.
So then it's committing to the method itself's exclusivity.
But, and here is a really big old large but.
Or I can show my own immaturity in other ways is only the beginning of the problem.
So from the group, here's where I think the stuff that people shared was just amazing and wonderful.
From the group, the person said, but this underlying portion of the passage
is not my experience, what I've been reading.
I learned to not share my feelings or opinions much because it didn't make a
difference and made me feel worse
in the end that what I felt and thought didn't matter to this person.
And here we go as a real life therapist
in the trenches so to speak couples therapists working with many people
in these relationships this is not something
that has happened or developed overnight this desire to to be heard and understood
and continually trying to give that narcissistic or emotionally immature person
the aha moment that the person that's reading a book like this or listening
to my podcast in my humble opinion is the pathologically kind person who is
still trying to figure out what's wrong with me. Am I the narcissist?
So it worries me that the population of the clientele that I work a lot with
are going to read this and then try yet again to give that narcissist the aha
moment or the epiphany when that is what they've been trying to do for years and years by this point.
So I think a case could be made that if your goal is again to rule out basically
the, okay, let's see how this goes.
And then after you try it and it's not successful, what happens if you continue
to end up feeling worse because your Your own body now has gone flat and detached
and you've started to shut down because there it is.
Apparently, again, now that I have expressed myself because this book said I
could, but I've now heard that it's all my fault.
If only I would do it a different way, blah, blah, blah.
So if the goal is to rule out, if the goal is to become more differentiated,
then bingo. I think this could be your exercise.
But at some point, you are continuing to provide them with buttons to push and
your own central nervous system is saying, really? Really?
So you read another book and now we're going to try this again?
It's like your body is saying, okay, I'll tell you what, I'm getting all the
guys from the cortisol department ready.
Like we are going to lose it the second that he turns his head a little bit.
Kind of does that little half smile, which is almost always followed by three short laughs like...
Before he says something like, so somebody listened to another podcast, did they?
So back to the comment from the person in the group, she said,
when I was emotionally spiraling before I made the choice to leave,
I shared how deeply things were affecting me and the kids only to be told that
my feelings were my responsibility and that I had a choice in how I felt regardless of the circumstances,
that he was not responsible for how I felt.
And here's what I think is the amazing part. What the person said next is so good.
She said, while this carries some truth in a normal situation,
the idea is weaponized by abusers to protect the innocent.
She goes on to talk about how her husband, and because of a lot of the things
that he liked to do and collect, so I'm going to change some of the data here.
A lot of the things he liked to collect and do, their house maybe didn't feel
like it was the most sanitary from how it looked even down to the smell.
And that is common. Because I'm telling you, as the therapist,
I'm working with many couples when they finally get into counseling.
And it can be the husband or the wife in this scenario that they'll mention conditions at the home.
And then the person who truly does want and need change, even from a health
standpoint, will be told, well, that's a you issue.
And like she said, technically it is because she said that the conditions in
the home were beyond that, that she could handle, but she was told that it was a her issue. you.
And sure, again, it is, but the comments from the book make it sound like that
most people have never ever tried to even express their frustrations.
And here's where I'll stand back in my healthy ego all day long to say that
these situations, these relationships absolutely.
Don't happen overnight, that she most likely did not have the right tools to
be able to express herself in a, let's just call it a calm, confident way each
and every time right from the start of the relationship because nobody does.
It's part of why, in my opinion, that we get into relationships.
It is to learn and to grow and to interact with another human being.
But the only people I think who will tell you that their relationship has been
easy the entire time may actually be the emotionally immature or the narcissistic
person who has been getting their way the whole time because they're going to
make sure that the relationship is fine because they'll quickly let the kids
know that you're the one that's going to have to get rid of the animals or whatever
else it is because of the smell.
There's no ownership or there's no self-confrontation going on there regardless
of how you say it how often you say it if you sing it if you sign it if you
express it in a haiku it doesn't matter.
Anyway, the woman went on to say that there were many other difficult aspects
of home life and my marriage, but this was one I tried to address as our mental
health and happiness spiraled near the end of my relationship.
And I think that is so deep because this is her saying, before I even read a book like this, I tried.
I tried many different times to talk about it from a mental health,
from emotional, from a safety standpoint, all of it.
And his answer that she received was, that's a you problem.
That was his answer I received for this situation and many others. others.
So she said, as far as my experience goes, sharing about the impact of the actions
from someone with narcissistic tendencies has on you does not bring awareness
or relief. It brings new misery.
And she said, my kids have experienced the same and they don't like to ask their
dad for things or talk about their hurts and frustrations.
She said, it's not an emotionally safe thing to do.
So she said, then if you do, cue the gaslighting that follows if you attempt to.
So let me start wrapping this up, bringing up some concepts of differentiation of self into in the mix.
So again, you are aware that if this is potentially just another rule out,
and it doesn't mean that you're broken, you're just being human,
then I think you really can look at everything through this lens of learning.
Because if we go back to building on this discussion today of logical inconsistencies
on dealing with narcissists.
So let's look at what differentiation means, the differentiation of self,
because this idea is so key.
And it's especially relevant in relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.
Because differentiation of self is about maintaining your own sense of self,
your beliefs, and your emotional stability even when faced with external pressures
like those from a partner or a family member.
Because in a healthy relationship, expressing your needs and feelings is not
only accepted, but it's vital. It's met with curiosity.
It allows for shared experiences. It fosters mutual understanding,
growth in the relationship. But when you're dealing with a narcissist,
this dynamic shifts dramatically.
Let me give you a scenario. This is one that I was thinking about earlier.
You tell your narcissistic partner that their criticism in front of the kids hurts you.
That you, in a moment of seeming understanding, they may agree to change.
Man, you're right. I need to stop doing that. So this response will seem reassuring,
but it can be deceptive because a narcissist or an emotionally immature person
will often respond in a way that serves their immediate needs.
And in this case, to ease tension and to maintain their favorable image in that moment.
But here's the twist, and I think it's such a critical one to understand and
goes back to the very core of what we're talking about.
That by sharing your vulnerabilities, you've inadvertently given the narcissist
or the emotionally immature partner a blueprint to your emotional triggers. years.
And then that knowledge is the stuff that will be weaponized because then in
moments of conflict or when their ego feels threatened, then how many of you
listening have felt that information used against you and even have grown to
the part where you just think, well, that's part of being married. And it's not.
When you finally express that something really is hard for you or hurts your
feelings, then it's up to that other person to remove that from the relationship.
Unless for some reason they feel like, well, no, I think it's absolutely fine
to to argue in front of the kids.
Your request to not be criticized in front of the kids then can be turned into
a threat or a form of manipulation.
And this is where we go back to differentiation is so crucial because it's about
maintaining your emotional integrity and not allowing your sense of self to
be rocked or destabilized by the narcissist actions.
And it means recognizing that your well-being and your emotional responses are
not dependent on how the narcissist behaves or how they react.
You're starting to build up this form of almost like emotional armor,
and it's, but it's not built out of indifference.
It might have to start in a place of indifference, but it's out of a deep understanding
of your own personal worth.
And then by setting boundaries, because then those will help you maintain your worth.
And so if the relationship itself is teaching you that you do deserve to be heard and understood,
and it's not negotiable to have your partner criticize you in front of the kids,
then that's something that you can start to differentiate and see that if that
continues to happen, even if you've, as it says in the book,
only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the
emotional impact they're having on you. I don't want this anymore.
And that continues to get used against you, then from a differentiated lens,
that's the work that you can do. you.
So back to this example from the group, let's just say that somebody says,
okay, I'm going to express that I don't like what my husband's doing.
And I would need something to change because I legitimately,
let's just say I can't breathe because of this.
And I'm just throwing this out there. Maybe it's a pet dander in the home or
smell in the carpets, because I've had that with everything from pets or cigarette smoke or you name it.
And he's, and I don't know the details. So let's just say that he's at work most of the day.
And so when I'm told that, yes, that is a a me problem,
okay, then if I'm in a position where I need to stay in the relationship for
a lot of different reasons, then from a differentiated place,
the challenge might be, all right, then I'm now learning that if I'm staying
in the relationship, then I need to.
Replace the carpet. I need to put in a ventilation system in the home.
And I know the yeah buts right now might be, but okay, but we don't have the
money or I don't even know where to start.
And that's where if I'm accepting the fact that I'm staying in the relationship,
then I can start to deal with those yeah buts.
So by staying, then I'm about to get to learn What a joy, what a pleasure through
the discomfort of this process and ability to budget or to learn what I didn't know.
And I know I can sound pretty Pollyanna-ish, is that a word?
Because I know that it's not that easy, but I'm just saying again that I can
see where Dr. Craig is coming from, that purely from a, okay,
fine, I expressed my needs.
It didn't work. He mocked me with fake crying, did a mimicky voice,
brought out the old greatest hits like, I think I'm so smart.
I wanted the animals in the first place, which I probably didn't.
And I had already realized that he was going to get them anyway.
And don't forget other classics like PS, your sister told me she thinks you're
a pain too, but don't tell her I told you because she made me promise not to tell you.
And the kids, they've said that they actually love the smell of ammonia when
they wake up in the morning, they're afraid to tell you.
So yeah, they told me also don't tell you and so on and so on.
Only to then say, okay, did you finally tell Tell him that you are going to get new carpet.
And if he can't, if you can't come together on how to get the money,
then you will get a job and he'll have to make his own food and et cetera,
et cetera, which if you are in that kind of relationship, you already know that
it brings with it a whole lot of crazy making as well.
He'll say the things like, but I thought you said you always wanted to be a
mom or well, if I knew you weren't going to support me when we got married 20
years ago, I never would have agreed to it.
And you were far more into me anyway. You see where I'm going.
But I would just worry that if you are one who is listening to this podcast
and you continually find yourself looking for what else can I try to do to get
him to understand, then I worry that you already have a literal boatload,
as in a large vessel full of attempts, to get him to understand.
So what did we learn today? I think the key takeaway is that while expressing
your needs is healthy and necessary in most relationships with a narcissist,
it's like it is playing a game where the rules keep changing.
And I know many of you feel that way.
The goalposts are constantly moved and you might find yourself repeatedly trying
to induce that aha moment in them only to realize that each attempt leaves you
more vulnerable to manipulation.
Goalposts, he says, you're not even very smart. We weren't even playing football,
baseball, and you don't even have a bat.
And this is one of those times where he's probably lucky that you actually don't have a bat.
Therefore, it's essential to recognize when efforts to communicate and foster
change are futile, especially when they lead to more harm than good.
And this isn't about giving up on communication, but then understanding that
the nature of the person that you're dealing with and then adjusting your expectations
and your strategies accordingly.
And another one of the things I love hearing from listeners and helping people
recognize is I know that you don't just go around having crazy making conversations
with others and you don't go around wishing you had a bat and want to smash
somebody's prized putter just for fun.
It's only after a repeated course of maybe not feeling heard or seen,
emotional abuse, gaslighting, crazy making.
And the more and more you may recognize that the main source of that is the
person unfortunately standing across from you, the person who you initially
believed had your best interest of mind, but unfortunately, you're now dealing
with the fact that they truly weren't seen or understood or heard as a kid.
And they haven't put in the time to self-confront and deal with their own childhood stuff.
But instead of you continually taking it, it's not you. It really is a them thing.
So I think understanding that the concept of differentiation of self is so important
in navigating these relationships with narcissistic individuals,
and it will start to empower you to maintain your own emotional stability,
sense of self, despite the challenging dynamics that such a relationship will present.
And remember, in the dance of narcissism, knowing when to step back,
I think, is just as important of knowing when, honestly, if ever, to engage.
And I say that way because that is a topic coming up for a future day,
just a little sneak preview because I've often said that once you realize, if we go through Dr.
Tony's five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense.
Rolls right off the tongue, except for when it doesn't.
But then I have often said or wondered that when you go from raise your emotional
baseline, self-care is not selfish, get that PhD in gaslighting,
get out of unproductive conversations,
set those healthy boundaries, know the difference between a boundary and an
ultimatum, and then you can't give them the aha moment or the epiphany.
At some point then, do we go back now out and you're not trying to give them
the aha moment or the epiphany, but you are now going back into boundary land.
And I would love to get some of your thoughts and opinions on this because I've
got some good data, some good examples that if you, sometimes there's a thought
that if I don't say anything,
even though I know it's not productive and I've gotten away from trying to get
this person to have the aha moment, but I've had a couple of people bring up
the concepts of, but at least I'm helping change the confabulated narrative that is soon to come.
That if I don't say a word then eventually I will hear what you agreed with
me as well when you really didn't and I think that one's really interesting
so we're going to take a look at that as well so I appreciate you going on this
journey I would love to have a conversation with Dr.
Craig wonderful way because I'm sure the work he's doing is amazing and there
should be no scarcity mindset when trying to help people in the world of mental
health and so if this resonates with you then that's wonderful if it doesn't
then I completely understand and I hope that you find the tools and the things
that will with that said I will see you next time on waking up the narcissism.
Music.