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Music.

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Episode 103 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch podcast, and a few others.

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And just shoot me a note, go sign up for the newsletter, but contact me if you

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want to be a part of the women or men's private group.

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And I would love it if you would also subscribe to the premium QA episode of

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Waking Up to Narcissism, the questions and answers, and please continue to send

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in your questions and answers too. That would be amazing.

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And you can also send me your stories and your poems and in your songs.

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And people really are so kind. Quick tangent, there are things that you never

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thought you would see as a therapist.

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And I'm not even talking the stories that you hear and not trying to be dramatic,

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but things that you regularly see that you just maybe didn't anticipate.

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Here's a random example that actually happened yesterday that people tend to

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burp a fair amount when they talk a lot, especially I think when they talk fast.

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And the most simple answer would would be things like excessive air intake.

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But fun fact, acid reflux, that a lot of people that are coming in are stressed.

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Stress can also deplete the production of substances called,

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and forgive me if I pronounce this incorrectly, but prostaglandins,

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which also I think was one of the evil people in Star Trek.

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But those normally protect the stomach from the effects of acid.

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And this could increase your perception of discomfort.

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And so stress coupled with exhaustion sometimes might even present more body

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changes that lead to this increased acid reflux.

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There's a thing called rumination syndrome.

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You can have rumination syndrome if you burp and regurgitate some undigested food in your mouth.

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And I know people do this from time to time, but there are people that have

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a pretty regular condition of that.

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And when they do, they in essence spit up undigested or partially digested food after most meals.

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And it's thought to be an unconscious habit involving the contraction of the

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muscles around the abdomen.

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So if you're burping alongside other Other GI symptoms such as bloating or abdominal

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pain or constipation, those sort of things, they could also be irritable bowel syndrome.

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And one study found that repetitive belching is a frequent symptom of the condition of IBS.

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And IBS happens often and that vibe of the body keeps the score when people

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have been in stressful homes growing up.

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Sometimes people this time of year are on their new year, new you diet,

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and certain vegetables produce a tremendous amount of gas during digestion.

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That's my excuse for not eating more of them because my arch enemy kale is on

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that list, as well as things like carrots and cauliflower and parsnips and radishes

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and rutabaga, whatever that is. But that was quite the tangent, to say the least.

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But I also find it endearing when people reach out and ask if I have certain

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topics planned out ahead of time or lined up for the podcast.

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And I do. And I appreciate those who ask because I do really appreciate hearing from you.

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I have a couple of things that I would love your feedback on.

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One is that I'm working on a larger episode or series of episodes on navigating

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faith journeys or a faith crisis.

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And I've done a lot of podcasts, especially over on the virtual couch,

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about faith crisis and faith journey.

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And at times, like actually now, a large percentage of my clientele are in some

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sort of a faith transition or deconstruction or crisis.

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Because often one's waking up to their own thoughts or feelings or beliefs or

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getting out of controlling situations or relationships comes with a,

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wait, what do I think? And how do I feel?

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And it is some of the most satisfying work that I do, truly.

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But if you have questions about that or examples of emotionally immature or

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narcissistic people who have impacted your faith or faith journey,

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I would love to hear your story as well.

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And I also have some content that I'm developing around the emotional whiplash.

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And you'll hear a little bit of that today in today's episode.

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But emotional consistency is a large part of my personal practice.

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And one of the things that many people wake up to in their relationship is how,

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how can we be stressed about finances and eat top ramen one night,

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and then the next day, the emotionally immature,

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narcissistic husband or wife, then makes a ginormous large purchase,

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and then gaslights anybody who will listen as to why that purchase had to happen.

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I had to do it to help somebody else out, or they They had a spiritual impression

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to do it, et cetera, et cetera.

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Or how a spouse can be the most beautiful creature that walked the face of the earth.

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But then if they say no to a partner or reject them, then they are not fit to,

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and this is a quote, wash the jockstrapped after a pickup game of dodgeball in hell itself.

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That, my friends, is unfortunately, again, not a made-up scenario,

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but one that was recently shared with me,

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and it's hard to trust the person making the jockstrap-in-hell comment if you're

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the person who just minutes earlier was searching the internet for modeling

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agents because of how you felt after they told you how amazing you looked.

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So I would appreciate your examples of emotional whiplash as well.

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So today's episode happened thanks to the superpower of impulsivity,

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because I came in to finish up some filming on my magnetic marriage course over

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the weekend, and I just just checked, checked email, looked on the internet

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for a minute before I started to record.

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And I just jumped on the private women's Facebook group. And I read a post from

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a woman who was asking about a book and if anybody had read it.

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And she talked about a passage of the book that her husband had used in essence

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against her. Those are my words.

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And I read the post and then immediately had some strong thoughts and reactions to the quote.

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And I got on the Facebook group and I did a live video, which turned into this episode.

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So you might notice in a couple of places that that there isn't necessarily a smooth of a flow.

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And maybe there's not typically a smooth flow. But I also want to be completely

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open that I have not read the full book that we discuss.

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The book is called Rethinking Narcissism, The Secret to Recognizing and Coping

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with Narcissists by Craig Malkin.

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And so while I spend time dissecting this one page of his book,

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the book has some amazing reviews.

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And I believe that there is no scarcity mindset in the mental health world.

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And what helps somebody may not necessarily help somebody else.

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And while I do do not know Craig. I read a lot about him and I really like the work he's done.

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And he has an amazing bio and this page and one part in particular of his book

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truly are just serving as my muse for this episode.

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But I am not saying one shouldn't read the book because that would be pretty

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silly because I haven't read it myself and his body of work is so solid.

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I would actually love to have him come on the podcast if this makes it back

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to his people. So with that said, let's get to today's episode.

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Has anybody read this book and have thoughts? And it's the book Rethinking Narcissism.

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But she said, my husband has been reading it and now believes that if I would

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have shared what was happening by telling him how it made me feel,

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he would have recognized the problems.

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And he also has now weaponized the passage that she posts in the comments.

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And he said to her today, this is what you do. You tell me all the things I

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do, but you don't tell me how you feel.

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And I love what she said because she said the reason I know he was referring

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to this passage is because I saw him highlighting and underlining it.

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And I went back later to look at what he was so excited about.

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And he's completely wrong.

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She said, I spent, I love this phrase. I spent the last spring sharing the crap

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out of my feelings only to have them dismissed, used against me,

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or parroted, and that she was wrong for sharing her feelings then too.

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And so then I read the passage, and I thought it was really interesting, and I'll share that now.

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I've heard of this book. So the book is Rethinking Narcissism. It's Oprah's book club.

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So it got a lot of coverage, and it's by Dr.

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Craig Malkin, clinical psychologist, lecturer from, I want to make the joke

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now, what does he know though, Harvard Medical School.

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But the passage in the book says, regardless of which signs they display,

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people who chronically avoid acknowledging feelings scuttle any hopes of deeper

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intimacy and true reciprocal relationships.

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Their two too internally preoccupied with their own fears or judgments to accept

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the gift of genuine sharing.

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That's what's so emotionally crippling about unhealthy narcissism.

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It leaves people so myopically focused on their own sense of importance that

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they may as well be having an affair with themselves.

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The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe

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the emotional impact they're having on you.

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Many people mistakenly think that they've done this by admonishing a narcissist

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or rattling off what they've done wrong, but there are more effective ways to

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reach them and to affect change.

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I've had a lot of thoughts on

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this one and there's so much there of more effective ways to reach them.

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So that's assuming that you can reach the emotionally immature narcissistic

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person and to affect change rather than the more that you try to engage with

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them, the more that they now have these new buttons to push.

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We're going to talk about that. One of the main things I think is the challenge

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in this is out of my five rules of interacting with a narcissist or an emotionally immature person.

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And I don't have a cool name for what that is. So I finally came up with a name

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and I could not help myself.

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And I thought it was hilarious at the time. Now it feels a little bit silly,

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but I wrote as if it were a carnival barker that is barking up a storm about

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these five concepts of interacting with a narcissist or emotionally immature person.

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So I am going to read this and I may end up deleting this whole thing and coming

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out and saying it really generically, because I will tell you right now,

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I was not a high school drama kid, that's for sure, because I'm not going to be able to sell this.

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But here's what I wrote, and you'll see in the context my good intentions.

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So, step right up, ladies and gentlemen, gather around and prepare to be amazed,

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astounded, and enlightened.

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Welcome to the grand unveiling of the marvel of the age, the wonder of wisdom,

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the spectacle of sagacity, Dr.

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Tony's five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense.

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Do you dare to delve in the depths of the human psyche? Are you ready to unlock

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the secrets of dealing with the most baffling behaviors known to mankind.

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Behold, within these walls lies the key to your liberation from the labyrinth

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of emotional immaturity and narcissistic nuance.

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So you can witness the spectacular, the extraordinary, the almost magical mysteries unveiled.

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Step aside and let Dr. Tony know Tony is not a real doctor, but he is a licensed

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marriage and family therapist.

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But people have written the initials of DR, as in doctor, on his checks.

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And one time, he didn't correct the person and the bank cashed the check.

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So using narcissistic math, he could technically be called a doctor by somebody

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who doesn't know that he's in fact not a doctor.

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Back to your regularly scheduled carnival barker. So let Tony,

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Dr. Tony be your guide on this carnival of cognitive clarity.

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Gaze upon the dazzling displays of emotional empowerment.

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Marvel at the mystifying methods that will transform confusion into crystal clear comprehension.

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But wait, there is more. Not only will you learn the art of emotional resilience

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by raising your very own baseline of emotions to heights that you have never, ever seen before.

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So now maybe you can see where we're going. There's raising your emotional baseline

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that you weren't even aware that you weren't aware of, I might add.

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But you shall also master the spectacle of spotting gaslighting gibberish.

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And be prepared to gasp in awe as you learn to swiftly sidestep the sinister

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snares of unhealthy conversations before they lure you into a quicksand-like

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stick that you will feel never to be unstuck.

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Applaud in amazement as you discover the grandeur of setting gargantuan boundaries.

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And for the grand finale, behold the most miraculous revelation,

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the secret understanding that epiphanies, yes, even those very aha moments,

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those sparkling diamonds of realization,

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cannot be delivered to the emotionally immature or narcissistic person in your

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life, no matter how How many four-leaf clovers you find, how many leprechauns

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you catch, or how many genies that you rescue from bottles.

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Nay, the epiphany or the aha moment must come from within the very mind of the

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narcissist themselves. Wait, is that even possible?

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Well, there you go again. That, my dear friend, is in fact a them problem.

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So step up, step in, be part of this once-in-a-lifetime extravaganza. That is Dr.

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Tony's, here's my unveiling of the name, Five Foolproof Formulas for Navigating

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Narcissistic Nonsense, because I love alliteration.

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This is the grand unveiling because that fifth thing, the fifth formula of navigating

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narcissistic nonsense is going to be such a key in this book of revisiting narcissism.

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And especially that passage that I shared earlier.

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And I think I wanted to share that because I finally gave it a name.

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But even more so, I continue to work with people who struggle with that fifth

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formula of continually believing that if you say it right, whatever it is,

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that you will be able to deliver that person the aha moment,

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or the epiphany that will finally get them to understand all the things that

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you've been doing or trying to do in the relationship.

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And then it will finally be easy and wonderful and you will both feel better

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and you can just get back to that and they live happily ever after version of

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the story that you've always wanted and dreamed of and that the movies of childhood said was a thing.

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Because now maybe you can see that if we go back to the quote of the only way

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to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional

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impact that they're having on you.

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Many people mistakenly think that they've done this by admonishing a narcissist

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or rattling off what they've done wrong.

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There are more effective ways to reach them and to affect change.

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So I worry that that is very close to that definition of giving the narcissist

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the aha moment or the epiphany.

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And I am very confident that that is something that by the time somebody has

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gotten to the place where they recognize that you can't give them the aha moment

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or the epiphany, it's because you've tried so many times.

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So then reading this book that is part of Oprah's book club,

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which probably has a lot of sales, I worry that it's going to be a real challenge

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for the pathologically kind.

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So let me go through those five things again. And then I want to talk more about

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this quote in particular, and we're going to break it down. The first in the

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five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense is raising that

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emotional baseline, prioritizing self-care because you have to be in the best

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emotional state possible.

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And that is crucial for effectively interacting with the narcissist or the emotionally

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immature person in your life.

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If known, I've got my second one, get your PhD in gaslighting because you have

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to educate yourself about gaslighting techniques and the dynamics because understanding

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that will help you recognize and counteract all the manipulative behaviors to

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help you start to at least head down that path of maybe I'm not crazy,

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even though I may feel that way often.

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The third thing is exiting unhealthy conversations, learning to identify and

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withdraw from unproductive and detrimental conversations because those are the

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interactions that often lead to self doubt and a loss of your own self identity.

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And I put these in order for a reason because that self-care needs to be there at all times.

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Understanding gaslighting is really important because I never realized how many

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people didn't know about it until you learn about it.

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And now I know that it's a much more talked about concept.

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But then once you're aware of it, now you are aware that these conversations

00:13:50.872 --> 00:13:53.672
are unproductive. So then I need to get out of them.

00:13:53.912 --> 00:13:56.472
And then setting a healthy boundary, understanding the difference between a

00:13:56.472 --> 00:13:57.492
boundary and an ultimatum.

00:13:57.552 --> 00:14:00.572
I've been trying to go big on that lately, that boundaries are about what you

00:14:00.572 --> 00:14:03.312
will do for your well-being, not about controlling the narcissist behavior.

00:14:03.752 --> 00:14:06.032
And I think that might come into play here in a little bit too.

00:14:06.152 --> 00:14:08.772
But the boundary is a me thing.

00:14:08.912 --> 00:14:11.932
The ultimatum is you need to stop doing that.

00:14:12.252 --> 00:14:13.852
Because if I'm doing that, if I'm

00:14:13.852 --> 00:14:17.432
saying that to an immature narcissistic person, I just challenged them.

00:14:17.572 --> 00:14:21.792
And so it's in essence the concept of reactance where I just told them what

00:14:21.792 --> 00:14:26.152
if I try to tell my brain don't think about a blue snake, I just thought about it.

00:14:26.212 --> 00:14:29.252
So if I'm telling them don't say that in front of the kids again,

00:14:29.372 --> 00:14:32.552
then they're saying, I guess I have to say this in front of the kids again.

00:14:33.141 --> 00:14:36.261
But that fifth thing, the main thing, is that the epiphanies have to come from

00:14:36.261 --> 00:14:40.261
within, accepting that you cannot force that aha moment or the epiphany in the narcissist.

00:14:40.621 --> 00:14:45.241
And then realizations and changes that those things have to come from them,

00:14:45.281 --> 00:14:46.701
not from external pressure.

00:14:46.841 --> 00:14:50.101
And I think that's one of the things I think is a challenge to the quote from

00:14:50.101 --> 00:14:54.361
this book, because by providing the external pressure, then they may know how

00:14:54.361 --> 00:14:57.181
to get out of that external pressure, either by making you feel worse or then

00:14:57.181 --> 00:14:59.081
them saying, man, you know what, you're right.

00:14:59.201 --> 00:15:03.001
Thanks for sharing that with me. That makes so much sense. which then gets us out of that moment.

00:15:03.361 --> 00:15:08.261
So now I turn back to the women's private Facebook group for people navigating

00:15:08.261 --> 00:15:13.161
the relationships with the narcissistic, fill in the blank, could be a spouse, adult, child, boss.

00:15:13.401 --> 00:15:16.021
I'd say parent is currently trending, could be a church leader,

00:15:16.141 --> 00:15:18.761
a church entity, a job, an aggressive pet.

00:15:19.101 --> 00:15:24.081
I'm joking. But they're in this thread and I'm so grateful for the support that

00:15:24.081 --> 00:15:27.581
people have given each other in the group in general, but this thread has been

00:15:27.581 --> 00:15:28.261
been pretty phenomenal.

00:15:28.501 --> 00:15:32.701
So, after the person started by saying that, has anybody read this book and

00:15:32.701 --> 00:15:34.641
it's Rethinking Narcissism by Dr.

00:15:34.781 --> 00:15:38.881
Craig Malkin and has any thoughts because her husband's been reading it and

00:15:38.881 --> 00:15:42.341
then he highlighted the passage and said, if you would only share your thoughts

00:15:42.341 --> 00:15:44.201
and feelings, then things would be different.

00:15:44.681 --> 00:15:48.221
Let's deep dive into that passage that was highlighted and that we talked about.

00:15:48.641 --> 00:15:53.481
So, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe

00:15:53.481 --> 00:15:55.361
the emotional impact that they're having on you.

00:15:55.781 --> 00:16:00.461
At first glance, that advice sounds very practical. That in a healthy relationship,

00:16:00.641 --> 00:16:03.981
you need to express your needs, your wants, and maybe it's true if we didn't

00:16:03.981 --> 00:16:07.521
see that modeled when we were young, that we don't really know how to do that,

00:16:07.561 --> 00:16:09.321
or it makes us very nervous.

00:16:09.641 --> 00:16:12.181
So, when I talk about that people don't know what they don't know,

00:16:12.201 --> 00:16:14.541
and we all start out as emotionally immature until we're not,

00:16:14.721 --> 00:16:20.781
that a lot of times, that is a great concept when somebody just doesn't know

00:16:20.781 --> 00:16:23.661
what they don't know, but where there's curiosity in the relationship,

00:16:23.901 --> 00:16:27.141
there's a little bit more emotional maturity and and emotional consistency,

00:16:27.401 --> 00:16:29.921
because then yeah, you can express your needs,

00:16:30.281 --> 00:16:32.001
and now you're giving that person

00:16:32.001 --> 00:16:35.161
an opportunity to join you on the shared experience, to be more curious.

00:16:35.361 --> 00:16:39.761
If I read that sentence again, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly

00:16:39.761 --> 00:16:42.381
and explicitly describe the emotional impact that they're having on you.

00:16:42.901 --> 00:16:47.101
But let's go back to the fifth formula, that you'll never cause them to have

00:16:47.101 --> 00:16:48.641
the aha moment or the epiphany.

00:16:48.941 --> 00:16:53.561
And there's a really key piece in that that quote that I think is so, so fascinating.

00:16:53.881 --> 00:16:59.441
The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact.

00:17:00.248 --> 00:17:04.488
What we have is the subtle contradiction that I think is really important to

00:17:04.488 --> 00:17:08.488
understand, and that is that the only way, and very often.

00:17:08.788 --> 00:17:11.148
Let me take a step back and then just talk about the book itself,

00:17:11.388 --> 00:17:14.608
Rethinking Narcissism, The Secret to Recognizing and Coping with Narcissists

00:17:14.608 --> 00:17:17.328
by Craig Malkin. Now, who is Craig Malkin?

00:17:17.688 --> 00:17:21.268
Again, a Harvard Medical School psychologist, Huffington Post blogger.

00:17:21.308 --> 00:17:25.728
So I know this person is well-schooled, and I went on to read some of his bio

00:17:25.728 --> 00:17:29.288
on Goodreads, And it sounds like he talks about having a narcissistic mom and

00:17:29.288 --> 00:17:33.188
he's had the clinical expertise for over 20 years, 25 years,

00:17:33.308 --> 00:17:35.168
and he understands personality disorders.

00:17:35.368 --> 00:17:37.748
And so there is no part of me that's saying, what does this guy know?

00:17:38.188 --> 00:17:41.808
But he says he addresses the narcissism epidemic by illuminating the spectrum

00:17:41.808 --> 00:17:46.068
of narcissism, identifying ways to control the trait, and explaining how too

00:17:46.068 --> 00:17:47.428
little of it may be a bad thing.

00:17:47.428 --> 00:17:50.728
So from my lens, and that's where I'm saying this is a me thing,

00:17:50.928 --> 00:17:53.828
the illuminating the spectrum of narcissism, I love that.

00:17:54.508 --> 00:17:57.848
Narcissistic personality disorder to extremely emotional immaturity.

00:17:58.328 --> 00:18:01.148
But the interesting thing is identifying ways to control the trait.

00:18:01.248 --> 00:18:04.088
Not quite sure if that means trying to control the trait in the relationship

00:18:04.088 --> 00:18:08.288
or in yourself, but then explaining how too little of it might be a bad thing.

00:18:08.368 --> 00:18:10.988
And this is where I go often on the concept of healthy ego.

00:18:11.088 --> 00:18:14.548
And that comes off of Eleanor Greenberg's work around healthy narcissism.

00:18:14.548 --> 00:18:19.648
And so all credit to Eleanor Greenberg in this example, but I turned to an article

00:18:19.648 --> 00:18:23.348
that she has on Psychology Today called The Truth About Narcissistic Personality

00:18:23.348 --> 00:18:25.348
Disorder, which is such a solid article.

00:18:25.348 --> 00:18:28.708
And she says, unfortunately, in the English language, the word narcissism has

00:18:28.708 --> 00:18:30.148
come to mean two entirely different things,

00:18:30.188 --> 00:18:34.108
depending on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis as a narcissistic

00:18:34.108 --> 00:18:38.088
personality disorder or informally as a synonym for positive self-regard,

00:18:38.088 --> 00:18:42.168
which I think is something that I don't think most anyone these days would look

00:18:42.168 --> 00:18:45.608
at narcissism as a synonym for positive self-regard.

00:18:46.132 --> 00:18:48.832
But she says, I'm often asked, isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and

00:18:48.832 --> 00:18:51.552
normal? And she said, I would like to clarify that distinction before I go on.

00:18:51.792 --> 00:18:55.512
Eleanor talks about normal, healthy narcissism, and I am taking full ownership

00:18:55.512 --> 00:18:57.952
of replacing the word narcissism with ego.

00:18:58.292 --> 00:19:01.992
So that would then read, this is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that

00:19:01.992 --> 00:19:03.612
is based on the person's actual accomplishments.

00:19:03.892 --> 00:19:07.392
It's relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their self-image,

00:19:07.552 --> 00:19:11.392
the successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real

00:19:11.392 --> 00:19:14.012
life obstacles. Because it's based on real achievements.

00:19:14.072 --> 00:19:18.472
Normal, healthy ego is relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks

00:19:18.472 --> 00:19:20.032
that we all experience as we go through life.

00:19:20.412 --> 00:19:24.292
Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in

00:19:24.292 --> 00:19:27.352
our real self-interest, and is associated with genuine self-respect.

00:19:27.452 --> 00:19:30.612
One can think of it as something that is inside of us. So in the development

00:19:30.612 --> 00:19:34.192
of healthy ego, which I think is a me thing, it's to the individual,

00:19:34.412 --> 00:19:37.052
I can't understand where Dr.

00:19:37.172 --> 00:19:41.412
Craig's going in this book of being able to express oneself and almost maybe

00:19:41.412 --> 00:19:46.572
having this assumption that the population is, well, I can't make assumptions

00:19:46.572 --> 00:19:47.772
for where he's coming from.

00:19:47.772 --> 00:19:53.632
So my opinion is that the people that are probably in this spot are those who

00:19:53.632 --> 00:19:58.052
are interacting with people that are not necessarily coming from a place of healthy ego,

00:19:58.152 --> 00:20:02.812
because then we would be looking at more of that person receiving the feedback.

00:20:02.972 --> 00:20:07.012
If I go back to Eleanor's definition, saying that because of their real life

00:20:07.012 --> 00:20:10.572
achievements, normal healthy ego is impervious to minor slights and setbacks

00:20:10.572 --> 00:20:11.872
that we experience as we go through life.

00:20:12.272 --> 00:20:16.632
And it's something inside of us. So if the emotionally immature or narcissist

00:20:16.632 --> 00:20:22.692
is reacting and big reactions to get rid of their discomfort to try to put the

00:20:22.692 --> 00:20:24.752
person they're communicating with in the one down position,

00:20:24.992 --> 00:20:27.712
then I just worry that we're not talking about healthy narcissism.

00:20:28.623 --> 00:20:33.543
And then the opposite of that, Eleanor says, is pathological defensive narcissism.

00:20:33.723 --> 00:20:37.503
This is a defense against feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of

00:20:37.503 --> 00:20:40.683
arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that he or she is special.

00:20:40.963 --> 00:20:44.323
Inside, the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.

00:20:44.423 --> 00:20:47.883
And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.

00:20:48.103 --> 00:20:52.183
One small pinprick will deflate it. This makes the person hypersensitive to

00:20:52.183 --> 00:20:56.703
minor slights that somebody with healthy narcissism or healthy ego would not even notice.

00:20:56.703 --> 00:21:00.223
Us. Instead, someone with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded,

00:21:00.343 --> 00:21:03.183
frequently takes any form of disagreement as a serious criticism,

00:21:03.323 --> 00:21:06.943
and is likely to lash out and devalue anyone who they think is disagreeing with them.

00:21:07.003 --> 00:21:09.323
They are constantly on guard trying to protect their status.

00:21:10.583 --> 00:21:13.223
Pathological narcissism then, or pathological defensive narcissism,

00:21:13.223 --> 00:21:16.963
can be thought of as a protective armor that then is on the outside of the person.

00:21:17.083 --> 00:21:19.963
So this is why when I personally talk about standing in my healthy ego,

00:21:20.063 --> 00:21:21.943
it's because of the work that I have done personally.

00:21:22.183 --> 00:21:25.563
And part of of that work, if you are developing a healthy ego or sense of self,

00:21:25.623 --> 00:21:27.583
is not needing the external validation.

00:21:27.823 --> 00:21:30.063
So if somebody is telling you that they don't like what you're doing,

00:21:30.143 --> 00:21:32.883
you say, I appreciate that input and thank you.

00:21:33.363 --> 00:21:36.143
We'll talk about this later in the episode, but from a differentiated standpoint,

00:21:36.383 --> 00:21:38.683
then I actually want the feedback because I'll take a look at it,

00:21:38.743 --> 00:21:41.483
but it doesn't mean that I have to react, tell you you're wrong, defend myself.

00:21:41.763 --> 00:21:45.583
And then when somebody does not have a healthy ego, then they're more in that

00:21:45.583 --> 00:21:50.463
emotionally immature category or what what Eleanor called pathological defensive narcissism,

00:21:50.483 --> 00:21:54.723
where any criticism is like that pinprick and it will deflate them and they

00:21:54.723 --> 00:21:56.923
will lash out and defend their fragile ego.

00:21:57.183 --> 00:22:00.363
Craig goes on to say, what is narcissism? One of the fastest rising searches

00:22:00.363 --> 00:22:04.103
on Google and articles on the topic routinely go viral, yet the word narcissist

00:22:04.103 --> 00:22:06.263
seems to mean something different every time it's uttered.

00:22:06.403 --> 00:22:10.063
People hurl the word as an insult at anybody who offends them,

00:22:10.123 --> 00:22:13.403
and it's becoming so ubiquitous, in fact, that it's lost any clear meaning.

00:22:13.483 --> 00:22:17.503
And the only certainty these days is that it's bad to be a narcissist. Really bad.

00:22:17.983 --> 00:22:21.923
Inspiring the same kind of rolling queasiness we feel when we hear the words sexist or racist.

00:22:22.323 --> 00:22:25.783
He said that's especially troubling news for millennials, the people born after

00:22:25.783 --> 00:22:28.943
1980 who have been branded the most narcissistic generation ever.

00:22:29.677 --> 00:22:32.297
So then he goes on to say that in rethinking narcissism, readers will learn

00:22:32.297 --> 00:22:35.697
that there's far more to narcissism than its reductive invective would imply.

00:22:36.297 --> 00:22:39.697
The truth is that we all fall on the spectrum somewhere between utter selflessness.

00:22:39.917 --> 00:22:43.737
So I like that where he's talking about the pathologically kind on the one side

00:22:43.737 --> 00:22:45.817
and then arrogance and grandiosity on the other.

00:22:46.057 --> 00:22:50.497
And he said a healthy middle exhibits a strong sense of self on the far end lies sociopathy.

00:22:50.877 --> 00:22:54.877
And then Malkin deconstructs healthy from unhealthy narcissism and offers clear

00:22:54.877 --> 00:22:57.937
step by step guidance on how to promote healthy narcissism in our partners.

00:22:57.937 --> 00:23:01.277
Partners that's the one that I worry about a bit our children

00:23:01.277 --> 00:23:04.177
and ourselves so let me jump in here and before we

00:23:04.177 --> 00:23:06.977
get back to that sentence or that part of the book and

00:23:06.977 --> 00:23:10.077
I'm going to dive a little bit more into the contradiction that says

00:23:10.077 --> 00:23:13.917
the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe

00:23:13.917 --> 00:23:17.657
the emotional impact they're having on you already acknowledge that at first

00:23:17.657 --> 00:23:21.197
glance that does seem practical but it is that subtle contradiction I think

00:23:21.197 --> 00:23:25.437
that's important to understand because the statement itself and if Craig Malkin

00:23:25.437 --> 00:23:27.857
ever listens to this this is not me be saying,

00:23:27.917 --> 00:23:30.237
I found one sentence in your book that is crazy.

00:23:30.577 --> 00:23:35.317
I know that in my book about addiction, there's some straight up typos that

00:23:35.317 --> 00:23:38.677
I really thought I caught and I thought the copy editor would catch as well.

00:23:38.777 --> 00:23:44.217
So this isn't me saying, okay, you believe this, but I believe I would imagine this isn't an error.

00:23:44.317 --> 00:23:49.777
But in that, the only way we imply, so when we say the only way we imply that

00:23:49.777 --> 00:23:52.777
this is the exclusive single method to achieving something.

00:23:53.337 --> 00:23:56.637
So when he again says the the only way to reach them very often is to clearly

00:23:56.637 --> 00:23:59.557
and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having on you.

00:23:59.637 --> 00:24:03.357
I think that's the big challenge that people are talking about in the group, which I agree.

00:24:04.037 --> 00:24:07.617
But that logical inconsistency that when you hear something that says the only

00:24:07.617 --> 00:24:11.197
way we imply that this is the single method to achieving something that it sounds

00:24:11.197 --> 00:24:12.157
like it's pretty absolute.

00:24:12.457 --> 00:24:16.097
But then when we add very often right after the only way, then it introduces

00:24:16.097 --> 00:24:18.717
an element of frequency, not certainty.

00:24:18.937 --> 00:24:22.817
And it's like saying the only key to this door is the red red key,

00:24:22.957 --> 00:24:25.077
but very often the blue key also works.

00:24:25.337 --> 00:24:28.097
And I think when you put it in that context, now we can start to see that,

00:24:28.117 --> 00:24:31.937
oh man, we're setting the table for some inconsistency with somebody that already

00:24:31.937 --> 00:24:32.757
is really inconsistent.

00:24:33.317 --> 00:24:37.097
Because what that causes us to feel like is, okay, well then if other keys work

00:24:37.097 --> 00:24:39.937
other than the red key, then that means the red key isn't the only one, right?

00:24:40.017 --> 00:24:43.857
I feel like that might actually give a little bit of false hope to the person

00:24:43.857 --> 00:24:47.977
who is still so desperate to figure out the relationship and take on the responsibility

00:24:47.977 --> 00:24:52.037
responsibility, so that they can fix it. Again, the pathologically kind person.

00:24:52.157 --> 00:24:55.597
Now, there's a quote from an author named Brandon Sanderson that I think is

00:24:55.597 --> 00:24:56.537
really, really interesting.

00:24:56.957 --> 00:25:01.637
And I took this quote a little bit out of context because it's from a book that

00:25:01.637 --> 00:25:06.057
has a character, I believe, called Alcatraz and evil librarians and these sort of things.

00:25:06.397 --> 00:25:08.757
There's a part of this quote that I cannot stop thinking about.

00:25:08.937 --> 00:25:12.757
And the quote says, because if the terrible things that happen in life are all

00:25:12.757 --> 00:25:16.077
your fault, then there's still the chance that you'll be able to stop future

00:25:16.077 --> 00:25:17.177
terrible things from happening.

00:25:17.417 --> 00:25:21.317
Sometimes blaming yourself feels better than admitting that the fate of the

00:25:21.317 --> 00:25:23.137
world may be out of your control.

00:25:24.095 --> 00:25:28.695
Now, let me frame in context why I think that quote is pretty interesting to

00:25:28.695 --> 00:25:32.175
discuss right after this quote from the book by Dr.

00:25:32.275 --> 00:25:34.335
Craig Malkin about narcissism.

00:25:34.615 --> 00:25:38.015
Let's start back with the pathologically kind person who is in this relationship

00:25:38.015 --> 00:25:40.595
with the narcissist or the emotionally immature individual.

00:25:40.875 --> 00:25:43.875
And then now let's take that quote from Brandon Sanderson. So,

00:25:43.895 --> 00:25:49.855
in that context, the pathologically kind person, I believe, often takes on the

00:25:49.855 --> 00:25:52.775
burden of responsibility for the difficulties in the relationship.

00:25:52.775 --> 00:25:54.695
I think that's not too big of a stretch.

00:25:54.915 --> 00:25:59.695
And this is similar to the sentiment that is expressed in that quote by Brandon

00:25:59.695 --> 00:26:03.615
Sanderson, that by assuming that the problems are their own fault.

00:26:03.795 --> 00:26:07.915
So sometimes I worry that if the pathologically kind person is then assuming,

00:26:08.035 --> 00:26:10.755
okay, this must be a me thing, I can figure this out.

00:26:11.115 --> 00:26:14.715
Because if they can just find the right words or the right actions or behaviors

00:26:14.715 --> 00:26:19.155
to cause that aha moment, or the epiphany in their partner, then they feel like

00:26:19.155 --> 00:26:20.275
they can fix the relationship.

00:26:20.275 --> 00:26:23.815
Relationship and again while that belief sounds amazing and

00:26:23.815 --> 00:26:26.595
that stems from a place of hope and in a place of a

00:26:26.595 --> 00:26:29.355
desire to help that i worry that it can be more of

00:26:29.355 --> 00:26:32.995
a defense mechanism against feeling powerless because it can feel pretty powerless

00:26:32.995 --> 00:26:38.115
in a relationship whether it's with a partner a parent any anything a boss because

00:26:38.115 --> 00:26:42.595
admitting that the i will say going back to this quote that the fate of the

00:26:42.595 --> 00:26:46.635
relationship is out of your control that can feel pretty daunting and it can

00:26:46.635 --> 00:26:48.135
lead to feelings of helplessness.

00:26:48.395 --> 00:26:53.155
And it's often more comforting to believe that with enough effort that you can influence change.

00:26:53.415 --> 00:26:57.815
And then this is where that correlation with that Brandon Sanderson quote becomes evident.

00:26:58.295 --> 00:27:04.175
And before I go on, but a long time ago, I did a run at my kid's school for

00:27:04.175 --> 00:27:07.615
six years, 24 hours around a track each year, raise money for the schools.

00:27:07.755 --> 00:27:11.835
And it was so much fun. And I would go get a lot of press and the morning of

00:27:11.835 --> 00:27:14.755
the band would play Rocky and they They would bring me out in a limousine.

00:27:14.755 --> 00:27:17.615
And then for 24 hours, I would run around the track and the kids would come out and run.

00:27:18.055 --> 00:27:21.255
And we'd have booths and the P classes would come out at night.

00:27:21.275 --> 00:27:22.875
It became a very big community event.

00:27:23.235 --> 00:27:26.595
And I just ran around a track and kids would run with me and they would camp

00:27:26.595 --> 00:27:28.175
out on the infield of the track.

00:27:28.455 --> 00:27:31.255
And everything about it was just fun. And we raised a lot of money.

00:27:31.335 --> 00:27:35.535
Every year we raised money to go to, at that time, I live in California,

00:27:35.795 --> 00:27:37.555
there were a lot of budget cuts that were coming.

00:27:37.655 --> 00:27:40.775
And so they were threatening to cut the budgets of everything from sports and

00:27:40.775 --> 00:27:43.295
music and all kinds of programs in the schools. So I thought,

00:27:43.335 --> 00:27:44.375
okay, this is something I can do.

00:27:44.535 --> 00:27:48.115
And I just, I loved it. Six years of that, a new PTA group came into power and

00:27:48.115 --> 00:27:50.855
I was told that, hey, they don't want to do it anymore. They think it's too much work.

00:27:51.155 --> 00:27:52.615
And I remember just feeling very,

00:27:52.675 --> 00:27:55.795
very confused and hurt because I was the one doing a lot of the work.

00:27:55.875 --> 00:27:59.515
I was doing the press and I was going and promoting it at all the schools and

00:27:59.515 --> 00:28:00.835
talking about it on social media. media.

00:28:01.135 --> 00:28:06.915
And I felt like the people that had been in charge of it or had worked with me really enjoyed it.

00:28:06.955 --> 00:28:10.215
And again, raised a lot of money and the kids talk about it.

00:28:10.235 --> 00:28:13.315
So I just, I loved that the whole community impact of it. But then I was told

00:28:13.315 --> 00:28:14.295
that it wasn't going to happen anymore.

00:28:14.495 --> 00:28:19.795
And I ended up setting up a meeting with administration of the school.

00:28:20.135 --> 00:28:22.955
And the reason I bring this up now is not looking for any kind of validation.

00:28:24.132 --> 00:28:28.272
This concept of feeling like that something could be completely out of control,

00:28:28.352 --> 00:28:32.312
that the fate of the relationship is out of our control, it does feel really powerless.

00:28:32.412 --> 00:28:36.172
And I remember sitting in front of a new administrator from the school,

00:28:36.332 --> 00:28:39.932
from the district, and they were saying, yeah, it looks like we're not going to do it anymore.

00:28:40.212 --> 00:28:44.592
And I was saying, I hear you. And I understand I've been told that it's because it's a lot of work.

00:28:44.752 --> 00:28:48.832
And I was saying, we do all the work. And the administrator just blank stared

00:28:48.832 --> 00:28:51.452
me and just said, yeah, they say it's too much work.

00:28:51.572 --> 00:28:54.632
And I was He was saying, man, I hear you. So let me lay out the whole process

00:28:54.632 --> 00:28:58.272
again. It's the guy doing the running and the promoting and look at the books

00:28:58.272 --> 00:28:59.172
and how much money we've made.

00:28:59.412 --> 00:29:03.172
And so it's okay. And he just was saying, yeah, it just looks like it's too much work.

00:29:03.372 --> 00:29:08.792
And I remember, and I lost my cool. And I look back on that now and I let my

00:29:08.792 --> 00:29:12.932
button get pressed because I even just said, I feel like I'm talking to some

00:29:12.932 --> 00:29:14.992
sort of politician here. Are you even hearing me?

00:29:15.252 --> 00:29:17.852
And I felt like, oh, he wasn't. He was just staring at me.

00:29:18.152 --> 00:29:22.332
And it did. did. It felt like that, wait, do I have no control here?

00:29:22.652 --> 00:29:25.452
And literally as the person who would run around the track and raise the money

00:29:25.452 --> 00:29:30.032
and go get the promotions and all the, at that point, just the community aspect of it alone.

00:29:30.452 --> 00:29:33.552
And it didn't matter. Didn't matter what I said or did.

00:29:33.792 --> 00:29:37.472
I was not going to cause this person to have that aha moment or the epiphany.

00:29:37.572 --> 00:29:39.172
And it really bothered me for a long time.

00:29:39.432 --> 00:29:43.692
But I bring that up because it just speaks to broader human tendency to prefer

00:29:43.692 --> 00:29:47.272
more of a sense of control, even if it means shouldering undue blame.

00:29:47.692 --> 00:29:50.892
So I think if we go go back into the relationship in the case of the pathologically

00:29:50.892 --> 00:29:54.192
kind person, blaming themselves for the issues on the relationship or they can

00:29:54.192 --> 00:29:57.432
find it, they'll read the right book, they will listen to the podcast,

00:29:57.672 --> 00:30:02.592
they'll do whatever they can to then try to get a change from their more narcissistic

00:30:02.592 --> 00:30:06.332
or emotionally immature person than it does, it feels like that it will give

00:30:06.332 --> 00:30:07.392
us more of a sense of agency.

00:30:08.225 --> 00:30:11.845
Because it suggests that we can change something about ourselves or the approach

00:30:11.845 --> 00:30:16.165
and that will prevent these future, as Brandon Sanderson's quote said,

00:30:16.245 --> 00:30:21.145
terrible things, conflicts, emotional hurt, problems or hurt with the kids.

00:30:21.525 --> 00:30:24.145
And in this scenario, I know that it was a little bit of my ego,

00:30:24.225 --> 00:30:26.905
my sense of pride, but it was the community, the raising money for the schools.

00:30:26.945 --> 00:30:30.925
It was so much that we had built for six years and that there was nothing I

00:30:30.925 --> 00:30:35.585
could do to stop that from happening in the relationship with the community.

00:30:36.065 --> 00:30:39.365
So I feel like that why I go back to this Brandon Sanderson quote,

00:30:39.465 --> 00:30:43.205
and let me read it again, because of the terrible things that happen in life

00:30:43.205 --> 00:30:46.185
are all your fault, then there's still the chance that you'll be able to stop

00:30:46.185 --> 00:30:47.465
future terrible things from happening.

00:30:47.525 --> 00:30:50.685
Sometimes blaming yourself feels better than admitting that the fate of the

00:30:50.685 --> 00:30:51.885
world may be out of your control.

00:30:52.285 --> 00:30:55.425
So the fate of the world, the fate of the relationship, the fate of this 24

00:30:55.425 --> 00:30:58.805
hour run, whatever that looks like, that at some point it is,

00:30:58.825 --> 00:31:00.285
it feels, it can feel helpless.

00:31:00.325 --> 00:31:03.305
It can feel hopeless and scary, but when we get to this place of acceptance,

00:31:03.525 --> 00:31:06.905
then it's what do we do with it? because we just want, we do,

00:31:06.985 --> 00:31:10.425
we still desperately want control and even those of us that want,

00:31:10.565 --> 00:31:12.125
we'll call it the good kind of control.

00:31:12.245 --> 00:31:15.805
But that whole mindset itself though is, it comes with a bit of a double-edged

00:31:15.805 --> 00:31:19.705
sword because while it provides a desire for a semblance of control,

00:31:19.925 --> 00:31:25.205
it will also trap you into a cycle of self-blame and then you might continue to.

00:31:25.925 --> 00:31:30.145
Fruitlessly attempt to change a situation that is largely, if not entirely,

00:31:30.285 --> 00:31:33.525
driven by the narcissist assist or the emotionally immature person's behavior,

00:31:33.685 --> 00:31:35.325
which is completely out of their control.

00:31:35.665 --> 00:31:39.385
In the scenario that I'm describing about this run, I went on to find out a

00:31:39.385 --> 00:31:43.245
lot of things that were happening behind the scenes later that I don't really

00:31:43.245 --> 00:31:47.945
think had a lot as much to do with me, but I didn't know what I didn't know at that time.

00:31:48.365 --> 00:31:53.105
And I think recognizing this dynamic is so crucial for the pathologically kind

00:31:53.105 --> 00:31:57.625
person because it helps you understand that while your intentions are good and

00:31:57.625 --> 00:32:02.565
solid and gold and can even be the right thing to do, and your efforts are commendable,

00:32:02.585 --> 00:32:05.765
that the responsibility for the narcissist's behavior and the relationship's

00:32:05.765 --> 00:32:08.505
dysfunction does not rest solely on your shoulders.

00:32:09.306 --> 00:32:12.846
So admitting that some of the aspects of life, including the actions of others,

00:32:12.906 --> 00:32:16.686
are out of our control, I think starts to be a huge step toward acceptance in

00:32:16.686 --> 00:32:17.566
the grand scheme of things.

00:32:17.886 --> 00:32:21.426
So now if we look back on this quote from the book, which I think I'll probably

00:32:21.426 --> 00:32:24.786
read a lot over and over again today, when it says,

00:32:24.986 --> 00:32:28.426
The only way to reach them, very often, I've already pointed out the inconsistency

00:32:28.426 --> 00:32:32.006
there, is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having

00:32:32.006 --> 00:32:34.326
on you, as in trying to express this to them.

00:32:34.326 --> 00:32:37.826
And many people mistakenly think they've done this by admonishing a narcissist

00:32:37.826 --> 00:32:39.226
or rattling off what they've done wrong.

00:32:39.406 --> 00:32:43.126
And I admit that's where we'll talk a little bit more about the ultimatum.

00:32:43.146 --> 00:32:46.326
Here's what you did versus a boundary of if you continue to do this,

00:32:46.346 --> 00:32:47.466
then this is what I will do differently.

00:32:47.606 --> 00:32:50.306
Because that puts more of the power in your hands.

00:32:50.806 --> 00:32:54.746
He says, but there are more effective ways to reach them, which again,

00:32:54.806 --> 00:32:57.546
reaching them and to affect change. I will affect change.

00:32:57.846 --> 00:33:00.866
And we'll talk about differentiation here in a little bit. I think that's probably

00:33:00.866 --> 00:33:02.686
one of the bigger ways to affect change. change.

00:33:02.986 --> 00:33:08.026
So, if we go back to the fifth formula stating that you cannot force that epiphany

00:33:08.026 --> 00:33:10.286
onto somebody who is narcissistic or emotionally immature,

00:33:10.526 --> 00:33:15.986
that the realization has to come from them, then this quote from the book suggests

00:33:15.986 --> 00:33:19.166
that describing their emotional impact on you.

00:33:20.046 --> 00:33:24.086
That if you are saying that that is the only way that you can impact the relationship,

00:33:24.406 --> 00:33:26.546
you know at this point that that isn't the case.

00:33:26.686 --> 00:33:30.566
And probably more often than not, Not those attempts are met with resistance,

00:33:30.786 --> 00:33:35.286
dismissal from the narcissist or the emotionally immature, because this is where

00:33:35.286 --> 00:33:38.366
we start to recognize the things that they don't know that they don't know.

00:33:38.506 --> 00:33:43.426
Might be that lack of empathy, the lack of self-awareness to recognize or accept this impact.

00:33:43.826 --> 00:33:47.886
It's the, no, tell me I want to know, but then I'm not going to,

00:33:47.926 --> 00:33:48.586
I don't want to know that.

00:33:48.986 --> 00:33:53.066
It's part of that trauma bond of you're asking the person who can deliver you

00:33:53.066 --> 00:33:54.446
the punishment, but also the reward.

00:33:54.826 --> 00:33:57.906
And right now it's a guess on which way that they're going to respond.

00:33:57.906 --> 00:33:59.306
On, although probably have a pretty good idea.

00:34:00.042 --> 00:34:03.702
So what does that mean? It's just another reminder, a good one.

00:34:03.802 --> 00:34:07.262
I should have smiled when I said that, that dealing with narcissistic and emotionally

00:34:07.262 --> 00:34:11.562
immature people is very complex and that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach.

00:34:11.842 --> 00:34:15.762
So expressing your feelings is important and believing that it's the only way

00:34:15.762 --> 00:34:19.302
to create change in the narcissist behavior is going to lead to frustration

00:34:19.302 --> 00:34:22.802
because it's essential to recognize the limits of our influence on others,

00:34:22.882 --> 00:34:27.102
especially those who are emotionally immature or who have narcissistic traits and tendencies.

00:34:27.302 --> 00:34:29.962
I really think understanding, that's why I liked it in that sentence,

00:34:30.002 --> 00:34:34.522
finding that logical inconsistency, that it helps align our expectations and

00:34:34.522 --> 00:34:38.422
strategies when we're interacting with emotionally immature narcissistic people.

00:34:38.542 --> 00:34:43.082
And so, then it can just start to become another tool in our kit as we start

00:34:43.082 --> 00:34:46.222
to navigate relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.

00:34:46.382 --> 00:34:50.362
Because this is where now, cliche warning, the change starts within.

00:34:51.042 --> 00:34:56.262
Sometimes our power is going to come in accepting what we can and can't do.

00:34:56.382 --> 00:34:59.922
So, now I'm going to go back to the quote from the book and then we'll talk

00:34:59.922 --> 00:35:02.922
about some of the responses from the group and then I want to touch on differentiation.

00:35:03.322 --> 00:35:07.482
So, it's on page 112, by the way, you have that Rethinking Narcissism book.

00:35:07.622 --> 00:35:10.682
Regardless of which, this is what it started with, regardless of which signs

00:35:10.682 --> 00:35:14.422
they display, people who chronically avoid acknowledging feelings scuttle any

00:35:14.422 --> 00:35:16.802
hopes of deeper intimacy and true reciprocal relationships.

00:35:17.402 --> 00:35:21.482
They're too internally preoccupied with their own fears or judgment to accept

00:35:21.482 --> 00:35:22.862
the gift of genuine sharing.

00:35:23.262 --> 00:35:29.162
Now, that is a beautiful statement when we are talking about the we don't know what we don't know.

00:35:29.482 --> 00:35:34.582
And both people are trying to be curious about the relationship and with curiosity

00:35:34.582 --> 00:35:37.962
about what was it like with you growing up and what was it like with me growing up?

00:35:38.022 --> 00:35:43.422
And then there isn't a judgment or shame or blame or withdrawal because there's

00:35:43.422 --> 00:35:47.982
a a lot of truth there that I know that I have avoided expressing my own hopes

00:35:47.982 --> 00:35:50.202
and feelings and desires because it's scary.

00:35:50.382 --> 00:35:54.202
Knowing that that's scary and then not trying to just blast those things out

00:35:54.202 --> 00:35:58.442
in an unhealthy way, it allows you to start to self-confront with your own discomfort.

00:35:58.662 --> 00:36:02.122
Why is it scary for me to express the things that I would love in a friendship

00:36:02.122 --> 00:36:05.082
or in a relationship? Well, it's because I didn't get those things as a kid.

00:36:05.162 --> 00:36:06.002
I mean, it can be that simple.

00:36:06.522 --> 00:36:10.602
What he says is in the book, that's what's so emotionally crippling about unhealthy

00:36:10.602 --> 00:36:14.482
narcissism is it leaves people so myopically focused of their own sense of importance

00:36:14.482 --> 00:36:17.242
that they may as well be having an affair with themselves.

00:36:17.942 --> 00:36:21.142
Now, I think it's a little bit challenging because I feel like there's a lot

00:36:21.142 --> 00:36:25.362
of blame there or maybe a feeling of shame is that it leaves people myopically

00:36:25.362 --> 00:36:27.002
focused on their own sense of importance.

00:36:27.662 --> 00:36:32.242
And yet, that I think if somebody's in this position, that it isn't myopically

00:36:32.242 --> 00:36:36.602
focused on their own self-importance, but more of the pathologically kind person

00:36:36.602 --> 00:36:39.762
focused, maybe myopically focused on the what's wrong with me.

00:36:39.902 --> 00:36:44.182
I think it's the exact opposite of the focus on their importance so that they

00:36:44.182 --> 00:36:45.542
aren't willing to share.

00:36:45.902 --> 00:36:49.122
It's focusing on the what in the heck is wrong with me. I've tried to share

00:36:49.122 --> 00:36:54.102
a bunch of different times and it clearly doesn't work and I end up feeling less than and worse.

00:36:55.146 --> 00:36:57.926
So then he says again, yeah, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly

00:36:57.926 --> 00:37:00.946
and explicitly describe the emotional impact that they're having on you.

00:37:00.986 --> 00:37:03.706
Many people mistakenly think they've done this by admonishing a narcissist or

00:37:03.706 --> 00:37:07.026
rattling off what they've done wrong, but there are more effective ways to reach

00:37:07.026 --> 00:37:10.026
them and to affect change. So I know I tangented a little bit there,

00:37:10.106 --> 00:37:12.006
but I want to talk a little bit more about that sentence.

00:37:12.086 --> 00:37:14.806
The only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe

00:37:14.806 --> 00:37:16.486
the emotional impact that they're having on you.

00:37:16.826 --> 00:37:20.406
Because we've already identified that that contains that logical inconsistency

00:37:20.406 --> 00:37:24.646
that having that words that the phrase the only way alongside very often,

00:37:24.746 --> 00:37:29.026
because that only way implies exclusivity and absoluteness suggesting that there

00:37:29.026 --> 00:37:31.846
is no other method to achieve that goal of reaching them.

00:37:31.846 --> 00:37:36.146
Them, but then adding very often back to that frequency aspect that,

00:37:36.186 --> 00:37:37.426
well, sometimes it's going to work.

00:37:37.466 --> 00:37:40.146
But that contradiction, let me go back to that.

00:37:40.426 --> 00:37:46.346
If it's the only way, it should be the only method under all circumstances, not just very often.

00:37:46.546 --> 00:37:49.566
And when I am working with emotionally immature men or women,

00:37:49.686 --> 00:37:55.126
one of the biggest problems is, in fact, in my opinion, emotional inconsistency.

00:37:55.146 --> 00:37:58.426
Because we're talking about emotional inconsistency, and this is something that

00:37:58.426 --> 00:38:03.206
I'm just so fixated on as I try to create more material for the men's group that's soon to come.

00:38:03.286 --> 00:38:05.526
And it is that concept of emotional inconsistency.

00:38:06.126 --> 00:38:11.506
So the sentence, the only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly

00:38:11.506 --> 00:38:16.106
describe the emotional impact that they're having on you has the logical inconsistency

00:38:16.106 --> 00:38:20.126
stems from the use of the phrase, the only way right beside very often.

00:38:20.426 --> 00:38:25.686
So the only way that implies exclusivity and absoluteness, it's the only way

00:38:25.686 --> 00:38:27.746
that this will work is to express your feelings.

00:38:27.966 --> 00:38:32.566
So that suggests that there is no other method to achieve the goal of reaching them.

00:38:33.046 --> 00:38:37.986
But then when he adds very often, that's what introduces a frequency aspect.

00:38:38.386 --> 00:38:44.146
Because the implication there is that this method is usually effective of expressing

00:38:44.146 --> 00:38:47.946
your needs to the narcissist, but not always the sole method.

00:38:48.266 --> 00:38:51.966
So that's what starts to create this contradiction. Because if it's the only way,

00:38:52.086 --> 00:38:55.086
then it should be the only method under all circumstances,

00:38:55.086 --> 00:38:57.886
not just very often because now we've set

00:38:57.886 --> 00:39:01.366
the table for the concept of emotional inconsistency so

00:39:01.366 --> 00:39:05.446
then what we're saying here is that saying that something that inconsistently

00:39:05.446 --> 00:39:08.686
might work sometimes with somebody who

00:39:08.686 --> 00:39:11.766
is pretty much always inconsistent is expressing

00:39:11.766 --> 00:39:16.286
your feelings and you should do it sometimes even though that's the part where

00:39:16.286 --> 00:39:19.706
the person that is reading the book that's listening to this podcast i'm assuming

00:39:19.706 --> 00:39:23.646
you have been trying to express your feelings for a very long time and it most

00:39:23.646 --> 00:39:27.526
likely has not worked or else you wouldn't be continuing to look for more books

00:39:27.526 --> 00:39:29.166
and more podcasts and more support.

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.939
So I think hopefully that one made a little more sense that the inconsistency,

00:39:33.939 --> 00:39:36.199
even in the data that he's expressing,

00:39:36.359 --> 00:39:41.479
that the most successful way to do this some of the time is this.

00:39:42.219 --> 00:39:43.639
That's something that at this

00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.999
point, the pathologically kind person is not going to be as effective.

00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:52.379
I want to say it's not going to help because trust me, I know that the author,

00:39:52.459 --> 00:39:55.579
that Craig knows what he knows and I don't know what I don't know.

00:39:55.659 --> 00:39:58.019
And he and I have two completely different experiences. experiences.

00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:02.859
One, I have yet to have a Oprah-approved book for her book club.

00:40:03.279 --> 00:40:07.479
Or let's go to grad schools. He went to Harvard. And this is going to be,

00:40:07.499 --> 00:40:10.979
I wrote some notes on this next part. This is going to be a fun one for me. He went to Harvard.

00:40:11.259 --> 00:40:13.279
My grad school experience was the

00:40:13.279 --> 00:40:15.959
University of Phoenix. And I used to be embarrassed to even share that.

00:40:16.359 --> 00:40:20.039
And when I would speak, which is still often, I would have the person introduce

00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:21.399
me by saying something like this.

00:40:21.999 --> 00:40:24.699
Tony attended Kansas State University where he tried to play baseball,

00:40:24.779 --> 00:40:28.139
but ultimately returned home and received his bachelor's degree from the University

00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:32.059
of Utah in mass communications, and you received a master's degree in counseling.

00:40:32.499 --> 00:40:37.159
Now, what is missing is that it was a decade later, and it was from the University of Phoenix.

00:40:37.299 --> 00:40:41.819
It was in person, but it was night school. And I did graduate with a 3.92 because

00:40:41.819 --> 00:40:44.899
I loved it. But Harvard sounds so much better.

00:40:45.179 --> 00:40:48.999
And I also know that I have now spent nearly two decades of seeing a lot of clients.

00:40:49.339 --> 00:40:52.659
And that's where I feel like I can say with a healthy ego that I've seen more

00:40:52.659 --> 00:40:54.579
than I think a lot of therapists during this span,

00:40:54.739 --> 00:40:57.719
because I made made some crummy business decisions that allowed me,

00:40:57.779 --> 00:41:01.559
well, let's say required me to spend a lot of time in the chair,

00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.239
take a large variety of clients with a lot of consistency.

00:41:05.439 --> 00:41:08.679
But I am so grateful for that experience because it now has me speaking on a

00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:12.519
podcast about narcissism and emotional immaturity and feeling very confident

00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:16.179
about the experiences that I've had personally and on my couch,

00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:20.199
my own thoughts and opinions on this topic while making absolute space to know

00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:21.879
that I might might be overlooking something here,

00:41:21.979 --> 00:41:24.999
primarily in the fact that I haven't read Craig's book.

00:41:25.099 --> 00:41:28.459
I haven't read the entire book, and I know that that would help provide more context.

00:41:28.959 --> 00:41:32.319
But so then back to the sentence, to resolve this inconsistency,

00:41:32.419 --> 00:41:35.459
the sentence could be rephrased to either commit to the absoluteness of the

00:41:35.459 --> 00:41:38.519
method or acknowledge its frequent but not exclusive effectiveness.

00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:41.619
For example, if it said something like, a very effective way to reach them,

00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:45.479
being a narcissist, is to clearly and explicitly describe the emotional impact

00:41:45.479 --> 00:41:46.319
that they're having on you.

00:41:46.499 --> 00:41:48.859
So then we're acknowledging the frequent effectiveness. this.

00:41:49.259 --> 00:41:52.179
Or on the other side of that would be the only way to reach them is to clearly

00:41:52.179 --> 00:41:55.759
and explicitly describe the emotional impact they're having on you.

00:41:55.919 --> 00:41:58.399
So then it's committing to the method itself's exclusivity.

00:41:58.979 --> 00:42:02.479
But, and here is a really big old large but.

00:42:03.347 --> 00:42:07.047
Or I can show my own immaturity in other ways is only the beginning of the problem.

00:42:07.367 --> 00:42:12.247
So from the group, here's where I think the stuff that people shared was just amazing and wonderful.

00:42:12.707 --> 00:42:15.587
From the group, the person said, but this underlying portion of the passage

00:42:15.587 --> 00:42:17.467
is not my experience, what I've been reading.

00:42:17.747 --> 00:42:21.187
I learned to not share my feelings or opinions much because it didn't make a

00:42:21.187 --> 00:42:22.507
difference and made me feel worse

00:42:22.507 --> 00:42:26.007
in the end that what I felt and thought didn't matter to this person.

00:42:26.007 --> 00:42:28.987
And here we go as a real life therapist

00:42:28.987 --> 00:42:31.907
in the trenches so to speak couples therapists working with many people

00:42:31.907 --> 00:42:35.247
in these relationships this is not something

00:42:35.247 --> 00:42:39.927
that has happened or developed overnight this desire to to be heard and understood

00:42:39.927 --> 00:42:43.867
and continually trying to give that narcissistic or emotionally immature person

00:42:43.867 --> 00:42:48.227
the aha moment that the person that's reading a book like this or listening

00:42:48.227 --> 00:42:51.947
to my podcast in my humble opinion is the pathologically kind person who is

00:42:51.947 --> 00:42:54.967
still trying to figure out what's wrong with me. Am I the narcissist?

00:42:55.407 --> 00:42:58.527
So it worries me that the population of the clientele that I work a lot with

00:42:58.527 --> 00:43:02.107
are going to read this and then try yet again to give that narcissist the aha

00:43:02.107 --> 00:43:07.407
moment or the epiphany when that is what they've been trying to do for years and years by this point.

00:43:07.847 --> 00:43:12.527
So I think a case could be made that if your goal is again to rule out basically

00:43:12.527 --> 00:43:14.047
the, okay, let's see how this goes.

00:43:14.307 --> 00:43:19.147
And then after you try it and it's not successful, what happens if you continue

00:43:19.147 --> 00:43:22.767
to end up feeling worse because your Your own body now has gone flat and detached

00:43:22.767 --> 00:43:25.707
and you've started to shut down because there it is.

00:43:26.027 --> 00:43:29.707
Apparently, again, now that I have expressed myself because this book said I

00:43:29.707 --> 00:43:32.107
could, but I've now heard that it's all my fault.

00:43:32.207 --> 00:43:34.827
If only I would do it a different way, blah, blah, blah.

00:43:34.967 --> 00:43:38.987
So if the goal is to rule out, if the goal is to become more differentiated,

00:43:39.007 --> 00:43:40.927
then bingo. I think this could be your exercise.

00:43:41.487 --> 00:43:46.887
But at some point, you are continuing to provide them with buttons to push and

00:43:46.887 --> 00:43:49.507
your own central nervous system is saying, really? Really?

00:43:49.747 --> 00:43:52.267
So you read another book and now we're going to try this again?

00:43:52.367 --> 00:43:55.687
It's like your body is saying, okay, I'll tell you what, I'm getting all the

00:43:55.687 --> 00:43:57.607
guys from the cortisol department ready.

00:43:58.127 --> 00:44:01.527
Like we are going to lose it the second that he turns his head a little bit.

00:44:01.607 --> 00:44:06.107
Kind of does that little half smile, which is almost always followed by three short laughs like...

00:44:07.461 --> 00:44:10.321
Before he says something like, so somebody listened to another podcast, did they?

00:44:10.941 --> 00:44:13.561
So back to the comment from the person in the group, she said,

00:44:13.701 --> 00:44:16.481
when I was emotionally spiraling before I made the choice to leave,

00:44:16.541 --> 00:44:20.101
I shared how deeply things were affecting me and the kids only to be told that

00:44:20.101 --> 00:44:24.861
my feelings were my responsibility and that I had a choice in how I felt regardless of the circumstances,

00:44:25.061 --> 00:44:27.061
that he was not responsible for how I felt.

00:44:27.741 --> 00:44:32.381
And here's what I think is the amazing part. What the person said next is so good.

00:44:32.921 --> 00:44:35.841
She said, while this carries some truth in a normal situation,

00:44:36.281 --> 00:44:39.401
the idea is weaponized by abusers to protect the innocent.

00:44:39.521 --> 00:44:43.001
She goes on to talk about how her husband, and because of a lot of the things

00:44:43.001 --> 00:44:46.601
that he liked to do and collect, so I'm going to change some of the data here.

00:44:47.001 --> 00:44:50.521
A lot of the things he liked to collect and do, their house maybe didn't feel

00:44:50.521 --> 00:44:54.421
like it was the most sanitary from how it looked even down to the smell.

00:44:54.801 --> 00:44:57.501
And that is common. Because I'm telling you, as the therapist,

00:44:57.581 --> 00:45:00.761
I'm working with many couples when they finally get into counseling.

00:45:00.761 --> 00:45:06.601
And it can be the husband or the wife in this scenario that they'll mention conditions at the home.

00:45:06.701 --> 00:45:10.841
And then the person who truly does want and need change, even from a health

00:45:10.841 --> 00:45:13.821
standpoint, will be told, well, that's a you issue.

00:45:13.941 --> 00:45:17.181
And like she said, technically it is because she said that the conditions in

00:45:17.181 --> 00:45:21.061
the home were beyond that, that she could handle, but she was told that it was a her issue. you.

00:45:21.281 --> 00:45:25.641
And sure, again, it is, but the comments from the book make it sound like that

00:45:25.641 --> 00:45:28.981
most people have never ever tried to even express their frustrations.

00:45:29.261 --> 00:45:32.721
And here's where I'll stand back in my healthy ego all day long to say that

00:45:32.721 --> 00:45:34.681
these situations, these relationships absolutely.

00:45:35.301 --> 00:45:39.741
Don't happen overnight, that she most likely did not have the right tools to

00:45:39.741 --> 00:45:43.461
be able to express herself in a, let's just call it a calm, confident way each

00:45:43.461 --> 00:45:46.481
and every time right from the start of the relationship because nobody does.

00:45:46.841 --> 00:45:49.761
It's part of why, in my opinion, that we get into relationships.

00:45:49.761 --> 00:45:53.601
It is to learn and to grow and to interact with another human being.

00:45:54.041 --> 00:45:57.061
But the only people I think who will tell you that their relationship has been

00:45:57.061 --> 00:46:00.921
easy the entire time may actually be the emotionally immature or the narcissistic

00:46:00.921 --> 00:46:03.941
person who has been getting their way the whole time because they're going to

00:46:03.941 --> 00:46:07.761
make sure that the relationship is fine because they'll quickly let the kids

00:46:07.761 --> 00:46:10.861
know that you're the one that's going to have to get rid of the animals or whatever

00:46:10.861 --> 00:46:12.221
else it is because of the smell.

00:46:12.681 --> 00:46:15.701
There's no ownership or there's no self-confrontation going on there regardless

00:46:15.701 --> 00:46:20.421
of how you say it how often you say it if you sing it if you sign it if you

00:46:20.421 --> 00:46:22.381
express it in a haiku it doesn't matter.

00:46:23.242 --> 00:46:26.282
Anyway, the woman went on to say that there were many other difficult aspects

00:46:26.282 --> 00:46:30.822
of home life and my marriage, but this was one I tried to address as our mental

00:46:30.822 --> 00:46:32.942
health and happiness spiraled near the end of my relationship.

00:46:33.462 --> 00:46:38.162
And I think that is so deep because this is her saying, before I even read a book like this, I tried.

00:46:38.282 --> 00:46:40.902
I tried many different times to talk about it from a mental health,

00:46:40.962 --> 00:46:43.982
from emotional, from a safety standpoint, all of it.

00:46:44.222 --> 00:46:48.462
And his answer that she received was, that's a you problem.

00:46:48.882 --> 00:46:51.662
That was his answer I received for this situation and many others. others.

00:46:51.862 --> 00:46:55.762
So she said, as far as my experience goes, sharing about the impact of the actions

00:46:55.762 --> 00:46:59.662
from someone with narcissistic tendencies has on you does not bring awareness

00:46:59.662 --> 00:47:01.282
or relief. It brings new misery.

00:47:01.662 --> 00:47:04.602
And she said, my kids have experienced the same and they don't like to ask their

00:47:04.602 --> 00:47:07.562
dad for things or talk about their hurts and frustrations.

00:47:07.902 --> 00:47:10.442
She said, it's not an emotionally safe thing to do.

00:47:11.022 --> 00:47:14.842
So she said, then if you do, cue the gaslighting that follows if you attempt to.

00:47:15.422 --> 00:47:19.262
So let me start wrapping this up, bringing up some concepts of differentiation of self into in the mix.

00:47:19.302 --> 00:47:23.222
So again, you are aware that if this is potentially just another rule out,

00:47:23.282 --> 00:47:25.962
and it doesn't mean that you're broken, you're just being human,

00:47:26.062 --> 00:47:29.002
then I think you really can look at everything through this lens of learning.

00:47:29.742 --> 00:47:34.142
Because if we go back to building on this discussion today of logical inconsistencies

00:47:34.142 --> 00:47:35.502
on dealing with narcissists.

00:47:35.802 --> 00:47:39.122
So let's look at what differentiation means, the differentiation of self,

00:47:39.222 --> 00:47:41.622
because this idea is so key.

00:47:41.922 --> 00:47:46.262
And it's especially relevant in relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.

00:47:46.462 --> 00:47:50.282
Because differentiation of self is about maintaining your own sense of self,

00:47:50.342 --> 00:47:54.562
your beliefs, and your emotional stability even when faced with external pressures

00:47:54.562 --> 00:47:57.082
like those from a partner or a family member.

00:47:57.830 --> 00:48:01.150
Because in a healthy relationship, expressing your needs and feelings is not

00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:03.470
only accepted, but it's vital. It's met with curiosity.

00:48:03.890 --> 00:48:07.450
It allows for shared experiences. It fosters mutual understanding,

00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:10.030
growth in the relationship. But when you're dealing with a narcissist,

00:48:10.350 --> 00:48:11.750
this dynamic shifts dramatically.

00:48:12.310 --> 00:48:14.950
Let me give you a scenario. This is one that I was thinking about earlier.

00:48:15.130 --> 00:48:18.830
You tell your narcissistic partner that their criticism in front of the kids hurts you.

00:48:19.250 --> 00:48:23.610
That you, in a moment of seeming understanding, they may agree to change.

00:48:23.790 --> 00:48:28.230
Man, you're right. I need to stop doing that. So this response will seem reassuring,

00:48:28.330 --> 00:48:32.670
but it can be deceptive because a narcissist or an emotionally immature person

00:48:32.670 --> 00:48:35.250
will often respond in a way that serves their immediate needs.

00:48:35.330 --> 00:48:40.050
And in this case, to ease tension and to maintain their favorable image in that moment.

00:48:40.170 --> 00:48:43.530
But here's the twist, and I think it's such a critical one to understand and

00:48:43.530 --> 00:48:45.450
goes back to the very core of what we're talking about.

00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:48.830
That by sharing your vulnerabilities, you've inadvertently given the narcissist

00:48:48.830 --> 00:48:52.830
or the emotionally immature partner a blueprint to your emotional triggers. years.

00:48:53.130 --> 00:48:56.410
And then that knowledge is the stuff that will be weaponized because then in

00:48:56.410 --> 00:49:00.510
moments of conflict or when their ego feels threatened, then how many of you

00:49:00.510 --> 00:49:04.810
listening have felt that information used against you and even have grown to

00:49:04.810 --> 00:49:07.710
the part where you just think, well, that's part of being married. And it's not.

00:49:07.870 --> 00:49:11.870
When you finally express that something really is hard for you or hurts your

00:49:11.870 --> 00:49:16.270
feelings, then it's up to that other person to remove that from the relationship.

00:49:16.410 --> 00:49:19.850
Unless for some reason they feel like, well, no, I think it's absolutely fine

00:49:19.850 --> 00:49:20.830
to to argue in front of the kids.

00:49:20.930 --> 00:49:25.230
Your request to not be criticized in front of the kids then can be turned into

00:49:25.230 --> 00:49:26.730
a threat or a form of manipulation.

00:49:26.990 --> 00:49:30.110
And this is where we go back to differentiation is so crucial because it's about

00:49:30.110 --> 00:49:33.150
maintaining your emotional integrity and not allowing your sense of self to

00:49:33.150 --> 00:49:35.990
be rocked or destabilized by the narcissist actions.

00:49:36.390 --> 00:49:40.370
And it means recognizing that your well-being and your emotional responses are

00:49:40.370 --> 00:49:44.090
not dependent on how the narcissist behaves or how they react.

00:49:44.490 --> 00:49:47.350
You're starting to build up this form of almost like emotional armor,

00:49:47.350 --> 00:49:49.810
and it's, but it's not built out of indifference.

00:49:49.890 --> 00:49:53.390
It might have to start in a place of indifference, but it's out of a deep understanding

00:49:53.390 --> 00:49:55.270
of your own personal worth.

00:49:55.610 --> 00:49:59.650
And then by setting boundaries, because then those will help you maintain your worth.

00:50:00.296 --> 00:50:05.236
And so if the relationship itself is teaching you that you do deserve to be heard and understood,

00:50:05.336 --> 00:50:10.556
and it's not negotiable to have your partner criticize you in front of the kids,

00:50:10.636 --> 00:50:14.236
then that's something that you can start to differentiate and see that if that

00:50:14.236 --> 00:50:17.116
continues to happen, even if you've, as it says in the book,

00:50:17.256 --> 00:50:20.876
only way to reach them very often is to clearly and explicitly describe the

00:50:20.876 --> 00:50:22.996
emotional impact they're having on you. I don't want this anymore.

00:50:23.156 --> 00:50:27.676
And that continues to get used against you, then from a differentiated lens,

00:50:27.896 --> 00:50:29.316
that's the work that you can do. you.

00:50:29.696 --> 00:50:32.536
So back to this example from the group, let's just say that somebody says,

00:50:32.656 --> 00:50:34.996
okay, I'm going to express that I don't like what my husband's doing.

00:50:35.116 --> 00:50:37.356
And I would need something to change because I legitimately,

00:50:37.416 --> 00:50:39.236
let's just say I can't breathe because of this.

00:50:39.396 --> 00:50:42.756
And I'm just throwing this out there. Maybe it's a pet dander in the home or

00:50:42.756 --> 00:50:47.216
smell in the carpets, because I've had that with everything from pets or cigarette smoke or you name it.

00:50:47.476 --> 00:50:50.836
And he's, and I don't know the details. So let's just say that he's at work most of the day.

00:50:51.076 --> 00:50:53.896
And so when I'm told that, yes, that is a a me problem,

00:50:54.136 --> 00:50:59.296
okay, then if I'm in a position where I need to stay in the relationship for

00:50:59.296 --> 00:51:02.456
a lot of different reasons, then from a differentiated place,

00:51:02.676 --> 00:51:05.756
the challenge might be, all right, then I'm now learning that if I'm staying

00:51:05.756 --> 00:51:07.336
in the relationship, then I need to.

00:51:07.996 --> 00:51:10.536
Replace the carpet. I need to put in a ventilation system in the home.

00:51:10.736 --> 00:51:13.396
And I know the yeah buts right now might be, but okay, but we don't have the

00:51:13.396 --> 00:51:14.616
money or I don't even know where to start.

00:51:14.996 --> 00:51:17.676
And that's where if I'm accepting the fact that I'm staying in the relationship,

00:51:17.856 --> 00:51:19.656
then I can start to deal with those yeah buts.

00:51:19.896 --> 00:51:24.176
So by staying, then I'm about to get to learn What a joy, what a pleasure through

00:51:24.176 --> 00:51:27.636
the discomfort of this process and ability to budget or to learn what I didn't know.

00:51:28.036 --> 00:51:30.816
And I know I can sound pretty Pollyanna-ish, is that a word?

00:51:31.036 --> 00:51:33.556
Because I know that it's not that easy, but I'm just saying again that I can

00:51:33.556 --> 00:51:37.456
see where Dr. Craig is coming from, that purely from a, okay,

00:51:37.476 --> 00:51:38.776
fine, I expressed my needs.

00:51:39.609 --> 00:51:42.529
It didn't work. He mocked me with fake crying, did a mimicky voice,

00:51:42.609 --> 00:51:44.949
brought out the old greatest hits like, I think I'm so smart.

00:51:45.069 --> 00:51:47.769
I wanted the animals in the first place, which I probably didn't.

00:51:47.769 --> 00:51:50.469
And I had already realized that he was going to get them anyway.

00:51:50.669 --> 00:51:54.049
And don't forget other classics like PS, your sister told me she thinks you're

00:51:54.049 --> 00:51:56.789
a pain too, but don't tell her I told you because she made me promise not to tell you.

00:51:56.929 --> 00:51:59.609
And the kids, they've said that they actually love the smell of ammonia when

00:51:59.609 --> 00:52:01.529
they wake up in the morning, they're afraid to tell you.

00:52:01.689 --> 00:52:04.669
So yeah, they told me also don't tell you and so on and so on.

00:52:05.149 --> 00:52:08.829
Only to then say, okay, did you finally tell Tell him that you are going to get new carpet.

00:52:09.069 --> 00:52:11.889
And if he can't, if you can't come together on how to get the money,

00:52:11.969 --> 00:52:15.229
then you will get a job and he'll have to make his own food and et cetera,

00:52:15.249 --> 00:52:19.069
et cetera, which if you are in that kind of relationship, you already know that

00:52:19.069 --> 00:52:21.189
it brings with it a whole lot of crazy making as well.

00:52:21.809 --> 00:52:24.129
He'll say the things like, but I thought you said you always wanted to be a

00:52:24.129 --> 00:52:26.569
mom or well, if I knew you weren't going to support me when we got married 20

00:52:26.569 --> 00:52:28.009
years ago, I never would have agreed to it.

00:52:28.249 --> 00:52:30.649
And you were far more into me anyway. You see where I'm going.

00:52:31.129 --> 00:52:34.249
But I would just worry that if you are one who is listening to this podcast

00:52:34.249 --> 00:52:37.169
and you continually find yourself looking for what else can I try to do to get

00:52:37.169 --> 00:52:40.349
him to understand, then I worry that you already have a literal boatload,

00:52:40.429 --> 00:52:43.529
as in a large vessel full of attempts, to get him to understand.

00:52:43.869 --> 00:52:47.689
So what did we learn today? I think the key takeaway is that while expressing

00:52:47.689 --> 00:52:51.609
your needs is healthy and necessary in most relationships with a narcissist,

00:52:51.749 --> 00:52:54.589
it's like it is playing a game where the rules keep changing.

00:52:54.729 --> 00:52:56.209
And I know many of you feel that way.

00:52:56.389 --> 00:52:59.709
The goalposts are constantly moved and you might find yourself repeatedly trying

00:52:59.709 --> 00:53:04.069
to induce that aha moment in them only to realize that each attempt leaves you

00:53:04.069 --> 00:53:05.249
more vulnerable to manipulation.

00:53:06.369 --> 00:53:09.229
Goalposts, he says, you're not even very smart. We weren't even playing football,

00:53:09.369 --> 00:53:10.749
baseball, and you don't even have a bat.

00:53:11.189 --> 00:53:15.029
And this is one of those times where he's probably lucky that you actually don't have a bat.

00:53:15.289 --> 00:53:18.649
Therefore, it's essential to recognize when efforts to communicate and foster

00:53:18.649 --> 00:53:22.789
change are futile, especially when they lead to more harm than good.

00:53:23.069 --> 00:53:26.189
And this isn't about giving up on communication, but then understanding that

00:53:26.189 --> 00:53:29.569
the nature of the person that you're dealing with and then adjusting your expectations

00:53:29.569 --> 00:53:30.929
and your strategies accordingly.

00:53:31.469 --> 00:53:33.969
And another one of the things I love hearing from listeners and helping people

00:53:33.969 --> 00:53:38.049
recognize is I know that you don't just go around having crazy making conversations

00:53:38.049 --> 00:53:41.269
with others and you don't go around wishing you had a bat and want to smash

00:53:41.269 --> 00:53:44.169
somebody's prized putter just for fun.

00:53:44.609 --> 00:53:48.249
It's only after a repeated course of maybe not feeling heard or seen,

00:53:48.329 --> 00:53:50.009
emotional abuse, gaslighting, crazy making.

00:53:50.409 --> 00:53:54.369
And the more and more you may recognize that the main source of that is the

00:53:54.369 --> 00:53:57.729
person unfortunately standing across from you, the person who you initially

00:53:57.729 --> 00:54:00.429
believed had your best interest of mind, but unfortunately, you're now dealing

00:54:00.429 --> 00:54:03.409
with the fact that they truly weren't seen or understood or heard as a kid.

00:54:03.689 --> 00:54:07.769
And they haven't put in the time to self-confront and deal with their own childhood stuff.

00:54:08.189 --> 00:54:12.929
But instead of you continually taking it, it's not you. It really is a them thing.

00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:17.619
So I think understanding that the concept of differentiation of self is so important

00:54:17.619 --> 00:54:20.119
in navigating these relationships with narcissistic individuals,

00:54:20.339 --> 00:54:23.299
and it will start to empower you to maintain your own emotional stability,

00:54:23.559 --> 00:54:28.159
sense of self, despite the challenging dynamics that such a relationship will present.

00:54:28.499 --> 00:54:32.099
And remember, in the dance of narcissism, knowing when to step back,

00:54:32.099 --> 00:54:36.319
I think, is just as important of knowing when, honestly, if ever, to engage.

00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:40.519
And I say that way because that is a topic coming up for a future day,

00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:45.719
just a little sneak preview because I've often said that once you realize, if we go through Dr.

00:54:45.879 --> 00:54:48.619
Tony's five foolproof formulas for navigating narcissistic nonsense.

00:54:48.959 --> 00:54:50.999
Rolls right off the tongue, except for when it doesn't.

00:54:51.059 --> 00:54:55.379
But then I have often said or wondered that when you go from raise your emotional

00:54:55.379 --> 00:54:59.019
baseline, self-care is not selfish, get that PhD in gaslighting,

00:54:59.059 --> 00:55:00.699
get out of unproductive conversations,

00:55:00.999 --> 00:55:03.179
set those healthy boundaries, know the difference between a boundary and an

00:55:03.179 --> 00:55:06.479
ultimatum, and then you can't give them the aha moment or the epiphany.

00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:10.179
At some point then, do we go back now out and you're not trying to give them

00:55:10.179 --> 00:55:14.059
the aha moment or the epiphany, but you are now going back into boundary land.

00:55:14.279 --> 00:55:17.319
And I would love to get some of your thoughts and opinions on this because I've

00:55:17.319 --> 00:55:21.659
got some good data, some good examples that if you, sometimes there's a thought

00:55:21.659 --> 00:55:22.639
that if I don't say anything,

00:55:22.859 --> 00:55:26.279
even though I know it's not productive and I've gotten away from trying to get

00:55:26.279 --> 00:55:29.439
this person to have the aha moment, but I've had a couple of people bring up

00:55:29.439 --> 00:55:34.539
the concepts of, but at least I'm helping change the confabulated narrative that is soon to come.

00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:37.939
That if I don't say a word then eventually I will hear what you agreed with

00:55:37.939 --> 00:55:40.919
me as well when you really didn't and I think that one's really interesting

00:55:40.919 --> 00:55:44.899
so we're going to take a look at that as well so I appreciate you going on this

00:55:44.899 --> 00:55:46.959
journey I would love to have a conversation with Dr.

00:55:47.019 --> 00:55:50.859
Craig wonderful way because I'm sure the work he's doing is amazing and there

00:55:50.859 --> 00:55:54.319
should be no scarcity mindset when trying to help people in the world of mental

00:55:54.319 --> 00:55:57.359
health and so if this resonates with you then that's wonderful if it doesn't

00:55:57.359 --> 00:56:00.759
then I completely understand and I hope that you find the tools and the things

00:56:00.759 --> 00:56:03.879
that will with that said I will see you next time on waking up the narcissism.

00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:11.964
Music.