WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040 Music. 00:00:04.882 --> 00:00:09.262 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 102 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:09.262 --> 00:00:10.302 I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:10.382 --> 00:00:14.122 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast 00:00:14.122 --> 00:00:17.742 and Love ADHD, The Mind, The Mirror, and Me, Murder on the Couch, 00:00:17.782 --> 00:00:21.402 and I'm sure more podcasts coming in 2024. 00:00:21.682 --> 00:00:26.422 That seemed to be the theme of 2023 was I just, I couldn't stop recording podcasts, 00:00:26.602 --> 00:00:29.642 but here we are and welcome to 2024. 00:00:30.562 --> 00:00:34.682 I feel like there's a joke here about writing checks. I think that was the part 00:00:34.682 --> 00:00:37.422 that people had the most trouble with way back in the day. 00:00:37.502 --> 00:00:41.002 And now I asked my kids recently and they do know what checks are. 00:00:41.142 --> 00:00:43.322 And I think that one of my daughters saw one one time. 00:00:43.502 --> 00:00:47.342 But I'm sure there's still a problem in remembering what year it is, 00:00:47.442 --> 00:00:48.402 typing it in the computer. 00:00:48.522 --> 00:00:52.282 But thanks to a good old autocorrect, that's maybe that's something that is not as big of a thing. 00:00:52.382 --> 00:00:56.782 But I definitely digress because if it's not a big thing, it's probably a pretty 00:00:56.782 --> 00:01:00.122 boring thing to talk about. And we might just throw that one on the cutting room floor. 00:01:00.502 --> 00:01:03.822 But I want to start with a couple of things today. We're going to talk about parenting. 00:01:03.922 --> 00:01:08.262 We're going to talk about co-parenting, because I may have mentioned this on a previous episode, 00:01:08.382 --> 00:01:13.542 but I was absolutely shocked to see that the most downloaded and most shared 00:01:13.542 --> 00:01:19.442 episode of 2023 was the one about co-parenting with a narcissist or an emotionally 00:01:19.442 --> 00:01:22.922 immature partner or co-parent. and I did not know that. 00:01:22.942 --> 00:01:26.462 I looked at those download numbers and they're quite a bit more than most of 00:01:26.462 --> 00:01:27.662 the other podcast episodes. 00:01:27.782 --> 00:01:32.022 I know the amygdala hijack was pretty high up there too as was the one that 00:01:32.022 --> 00:01:36.062 talks about confabulation and trauma bonding and then all of the death by a 00:01:36.062 --> 00:01:37.222 thousand cuts episodes are. 00:01:37.422 --> 00:01:41.102 But I want to go into more detail, more detail than I even did in that episode 00:01:41.102 --> 00:01:45.822 because I want to talk about how co-parenting works in emotionally immature 00:01:45.822 --> 00:01:47.522 or narcissistic relationships, 00:01:47.802 --> 00:01:52.522 and I want to share more of the concepts that I realized at the time were a 00:01:52.522 --> 00:01:55.962 little bit, I don't want to say controversial in a very dramatic way, 00:01:56.042 --> 00:01:58.782 but that there's not as much content out being able to validate a kid, 00:01:58.822 --> 00:02:00.902 but not throw your partner under the bus. 00:02:01.002 --> 00:02:04.542 And I want to talk more about why that is important and what that looks like. 00:02:04.602 --> 00:02:08.622 So I've got an email that I'm going to read from a parent that is worried about 00:02:08.622 --> 00:02:10.082 creating a little narcissist. 00:02:10.122 --> 00:02:14.582 And so I do use humor and let them know the point that every kid... 00:02:15.109 --> 00:02:18.029 By definition, is a little narcissistic. And I'll share what that looks like. 00:02:18.089 --> 00:02:22.469 And then we'll go into some detail about why that goes from, 00:02:22.589 --> 00:02:27.089 oh, look how adorable that is, to then if the kid in essence stays that way 00:02:27.089 --> 00:02:29.109 through maturity and into adulthood, 00:02:29.289 --> 00:02:33.609 now you're dealing with a giant human being that has maybe even financial means, 00:02:33.709 --> 00:02:38.109 physical stature, and still can throw a temper tantrum like a child that you may need to parent. 00:02:38.269 --> 00:02:41.989 And then yet they also want to be a big boy, a big kid and I do it myself. 00:02:42.409 --> 00:02:45.949 And what that can look like of why it's adorable is when they're a kid and why 00:02:45.949 --> 00:02:49.689 it's not so much when they're a partner or a parent or somebody in your workplace. 00:02:49.949 --> 00:02:56.209 So I'll start today by a, I want to talk about a client and of course their 00:02:56.209 --> 00:02:57.549 names have been changed. 00:02:57.709 --> 00:03:01.809 Everything about this person has been changed except for the core principles 00:03:01.809 --> 00:03:04.089 of what we were talking about. So we're going to call her Sarah. 00:03:04.309 --> 00:03:09.089 And I think that by just looking at her from the exterior a testament to external success. 00:03:09.529 --> 00:03:13.089 She's happy in her marriage. She has wonderful kids. Her career is doing really well. 00:03:13.309 --> 00:03:18.149 But even though she had these external achievements, she would bring into therapy, 00:03:18.309 --> 00:03:21.729 she felt like a dark cloud that had lingered with her for over 30 years. 00:03:21.869 --> 00:03:25.029 And that was still the divorce of her parents. And as a kid, 00:03:25.069 --> 00:03:29.349 she had experienced her parents' divorce as just this sudden immediate thing 00:03:29.349 --> 00:03:30.649 that she never really saw coming. 00:03:31.029 --> 00:03:34.469 And even though now Now she can look back on that and say, I mean, 00:03:34.489 --> 00:03:38.329 I guess now the signs were there and one of her parents is incredibly happy 00:03:38.329 --> 00:03:42.969 now, but she said that it just, it uprooted her whole sense of stability. 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:48.009 And I also had Kate Anthony on talking about her book, The D Word, 00:03:48.109 --> 00:03:50.969 a couple of weeks ago, and she talks about an author named Christina McGee, 00:03:51.029 --> 00:03:54.849 who has a very insightful book called Parenting Apart, How Separated and Divorced 00:03:54.849 --> 00:03:57.229 Parents Can Raise Happy and Secure Kids. 00:03:57.589 --> 00:04:01.329 She talks about how an overwhelming majority of children in those situations 00:04:01.329 --> 00:04:05.309 feel like Like their parents provided little or no information about the separation. 00:04:05.549 --> 00:04:08.469 And if right now you're already, yeah, budding me, we're going to talk today 00:04:08.469 --> 00:04:10.029 about just communication in general. 00:04:10.069 --> 00:04:13.649 So not even necessarily about the separation, but if you have an emotionally 00:04:13.649 --> 00:04:18.589 immature partner or two immature partners, one more immature than the other, 00:04:18.649 --> 00:04:23.489 that how we end up invalidating our kids by not communicating. 00:04:24.417 --> 00:04:28.077 Knowing how to communicate with them, which makes sense because that's often 00:04:28.077 --> 00:04:30.937 why we find ourselves in those kinds of relationships to begin with. 00:04:31.177 --> 00:04:35.577 And so this is more of those tools that I just want people to know that you 00:04:35.577 --> 00:04:37.497 may not know even what you don't know. 00:04:38.057 --> 00:04:41.757 But back to what Christina McGee said, she said, again, an overwhelming majority 00:04:41.757 --> 00:04:44.497 of children in these situations feel their parents provided little to no information 00:04:44.497 --> 00:04:45.317 about their separation. 00:04:45.637 --> 00:04:48.837 And this was absolutely true for Sarah because she felt like this lack of clarity 00:04:48.837 --> 00:04:53.277 and open discussion left her just with a whole confusing mix of emotions. 00:04:53.397 --> 00:04:57.017 She had confusion and fear and this sense of just unseen anger. 00:04:57.117 --> 00:05:00.977 And that's some of the things that we're talking about now that is really powerful 00:05:00.977 --> 00:05:06.597 and helpful, but it's because she was unable to be acknowledged or seen or heard 00:05:06.597 --> 00:05:10.957 or able to express her emotions or opinions at all when she was young. 00:05:11.057 --> 00:05:14.877 So not only did she feel like she got blindsided by what was happening in her 00:05:14.877 --> 00:05:18.957 parents' relationship, but even more so, So it was the point where she was being 00:05:18.957 --> 00:05:20.737 invalidated about her own feelings. 00:05:21.117 --> 00:05:24.497 And I want to show a little bit of that tie today of how that can then leave 00:05:24.497 --> 00:05:26.897 the kid feeling like something's wrong with me. 00:05:27.117 --> 00:05:31.917 It's my fault, which can often lead them into future caretaking relationships, 00:05:32.197 --> 00:05:35.457 which is, I think, one of the things that I hope that we can all agree on, 00:05:35.537 --> 00:05:39.017 that we want to help our kids grow to be their own secure, attached, 00:05:39.357 --> 00:05:42.897 calm, confident, interdependent, differentiated individuals who then will not 00:05:42.897 --> 00:05:46.917 put up with the garbage of an emotionally immature, manipulative person. 00:05:47.688 --> 00:05:51.448 So in our sessions, Sarah would talk about how she always just had this quiet, 00:05:51.468 --> 00:05:55.228 nagging thought that somehow she was responsible for her parents' split. 00:05:55.468 --> 00:05:58.088 She'd gone to a couple of coaches who had told her, hey, here's the way you 00:05:58.088 --> 00:05:59.188 change that thought process. 00:05:59.408 --> 00:06:01.728 And so she had identified with some of the podcasts I've done. 00:06:01.888 --> 00:06:05.148 And she said, okay, I can't just magically change my thoughts or my mind. 00:06:05.468 --> 00:06:06.848 This still kept bubbling up. 00:06:07.248 --> 00:06:11.288 So then we started talking about it's normal for her to feel that way, first of all. 00:06:11.328 --> 00:06:13.268 And it isn't just a matter of, well, look at it this other way. 00:06:13.268 --> 00:06:19.048 Because as a child, her world was naturally self-centered, which is a normal developmental stage. 00:06:19.288 --> 00:06:24.268 Kids often believe that they are the axis around which their parents' lives rotate. 00:06:25.048 --> 00:06:29.268 And this is a very normal belief. But then if you compound that with silence 00:06:29.268 --> 00:06:31.748 and mystery surrounding a divorce or a separation, 00:06:31.928 --> 00:06:38.048 or even just parents starting to just detach from one another and then not even 00:06:38.048 --> 00:06:41.168 recognizing the impact that it has on the kids, but those are the things that 00:06:41.168 --> 00:06:44.488 led her to feel like she played some sort of role in the breakdown of her family. 00:06:44.888 --> 00:06:48.248 And she started overthinking then even her role as a parent today, 00:06:48.388 --> 00:06:50.588 even though it seemed like everything was going pretty well. 00:06:50.928 --> 00:06:53.488 So she would continually think, man, maybe there was something that I could 00:06:53.488 --> 00:06:56.808 have done to prevent it. And what if I'm repeating that process now with my own kids? 00:06:57.168 --> 00:07:00.088 So then here we are, decades later, even as an accomplished adult, 00:07:00.248 --> 00:07:04.528 this feeling stayed with her. And it was this subtle, but definitely a pervasive guilt. 00:07:04.588 --> 00:07:08.588 And it would just cast this shadow sometimes over her, even her happiest moments. 00:07:08.588 --> 00:07:12.428 And I want you to know her case is not unique at all. 00:07:12.488 --> 00:07:15.208 I would imagine there are even people that are listening today that would identify 00:07:15.208 --> 00:07:18.648 with it because a lot of adults who experienced their parents' divorce as kids 00:07:18.648 --> 00:07:23.728 carry this just background noise or low-key burden of responsibility. 00:07:24.208 --> 00:07:28.048 So then through a lot of really good productive therapy sessions, 00:07:28.188 --> 00:07:31.348 we worked on unpacking these deep-seated feelings and acknowledging them and 00:07:31.348 --> 00:07:33.048 accepting them and there's nothing wrong with her. 00:07:33.088 --> 00:07:36.408 She's just being and doing and we explored the importance of understanding that 00:07:36.408 --> 00:07:39.268 as a kid, that she wasn't responsible for her parents' decisions. 00:07:39.388 --> 00:07:42.548 And we also talked about how, what that looked like to be able to validate your 00:07:42.548 --> 00:07:45.228 kids' experiences and feelings and let them have their emotions, 00:07:45.288 --> 00:07:48.728 even if it made us feel uncomfortable as parents. 00:07:49.525 --> 00:07:53.445 And so I had even dug back into the author McGee's insights, 00:07:53.565 --> 00:07:56.485 recognizing the developmental truths about children's self-centered perspectives 00:07:56.485 --> 00:08:00.865 and how those can absolutely lead to these misconceptions of the role that we 00:08:00.865 --> 00:08:02.585 play as kids in our parents' lives. 00:08:02.785 --> 00:08:06.505 So she did eventually learn how to reframe her whole narrative and she started 00:08:06.505 --> 00:08:11.345 to see her childhood experience through a far more compassionate lens, a lot of grace. 00:08:11.545 --> 00:08:16.025 And that helped in alleviating the guilt and having some acceptance that those 00:08:16.025 --> 00:08:19.565 were the the way she felt and that was the way that it was handled by her parents 00:08:19.565 --> 00:08:24.745 and understanding that that was a result of their issues and it was entirely 00:08:24.745 --> 00:08:26.185 unrelated to her as a kid. 00:08:26.325 --> 00:08:28.925 So now she's got things figured out and I 00:08:28.925 --> 00:08:33.245 can truly say that she's living much more happily ever after but I think there's 00:08:33.245 --> 00:08:38.285 so much there and working with somebody like Sarah and then looking at the way 00:08:38.285 --> 00:08:42.945 that we work whenever we're either it's co-parenting with a narcissistic co-parent 00:08:42.945 --> 00:08:48.745 or even just two different approaches to parenting within a relationship or during a separation, 00:08:48.865 --> 00:08:51.525 but it's more about how to communicate with your kids, 00:08:51.685 --> 00:08:57.045 even if your spouse, your partner is not on board because the pathologically 00:08:57.045 --> 00:09:04.025 kind person is going to continue to try and buffer or run interference for the kids. 00:09:04.385 --> 00:09:09.825 And it could be to the detriment of validating the kid's feelings or how they're 00:09:09.825 --> 00:09:11.185 actually feeling about the situation. 00:09:11.185 --> 00:09:15.965 So I want to help with those tools of how to be more present and have a good 00:09:15.965 --> 00:09:19.925 way to acknowledge that your kids are absolutely okay to have feelings, 00:09:19.985 --> 00:09:20.665 thoughts, and emotions. 00:09:20.885 --> 00:09:24.645 And you can validate them without feeling like you're throwing your partner under the bus. 00:09:24.805 --> 00:09:30.205 Okay, so hopefully that gives you an idea of one of the directions that we'll be going today. 00:09:30.525 --> 00:09:35.145 Now let me read a modified email for anonymity that came in very, 00:09:35.205 --> 00:09:38.625 very recently that had me thinking a lot about this over basically over the 00:09:38.625 --> 00:09:40.805 New Year break and led to writing this episode. 00:09:40.805 --> 00:09:44.965 So the subject was navigating parenting challenges with a difficult partner 00:09:44.965 --> 00:09:47.545 and worry about creating a little narcissist. 00:09:47.805 --> 00:09:50.805 So the person says, Dear Tony, I'm a regular listener of your podcast, 00:09:50.985 --> 00:09:54.385 having stumbled upon it recently after watching you and your daughter do a live 00:09:54.385 --> 00:09:57.025 video on relationships on TikTok of all places. 00:09:57.165 --> 00:10:01.005 And it's been a revelation for me. My journey of self-discovery led me to recognize 00:10:01.005 --> 00:10:04.125 that I'm in a relationship with somebody exhibiting narcissistic traits and tendencies. 00:10:04.125 --> 00:10:07.825 I am definitely one of those who you would call pathologically kind and HSP 00:10:07.825 --> 00:10:12.325 or whatever else comes with all of that I'm just now starting to learn the dynamics 00:10:12.325 --> 00:10:17.125 in our family we have three kids our oldest is a boy age 11 than a seven-year-old 00:10:17.125 --> 00:10:18.705 boy and a five-year-old girl and. 00:10:19.260 --> 00:10:23.100 The girl is the one who really highlights my partner's emotional immaturity. 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:26.080 And I'm concerned about the long-term effects on all of them. 00:10:26.300 --> 00:10:27.780 But let me lay out the scene. 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:31.420 I see my older son leaning towards people-pleasing, a trait that I'm too familiar 00:10:31.420 --> 00:10:34.860 with and I'm learning to navigate again myself, as well as my middle son, 00:10:35.060 --> 00:10:36.600 but in a really, really passive way. 00:10:36.920 --> 00:10:40.240 And then my younger daughter's self-esteem is my biggest worry. 00:10:40.620 --> 00:10:44.060 She's often told to suppress her feelings, leading to her seeking comfort from me. 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.700 I used to cover for my husband's behavior, but now realize that's not helpful. 00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:49.180 Again, thank you for your podcast. 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:52.860 So I focus on validating her feelings and guiding her toward healthier expression. 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:56.240 But I feel like I'm at a crossroads wondering if my approach might inadvertently 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.480 be fostering narcissistic tendencies, especially in my daughter. 00:10:59.660 --> 00:11:03.180 My husband claims that her behavior changes whenever I come around, 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:06.760 but I feel like this might be in an attempt to manipulate the situation either 00:11:06.760 --> 00:11:09.720 for him, but I also feel like she feels safe whenever I'm around. 00:11:10.040 --> 00:11:13.360 I'm torn between comforting my daughter and not wanting to over-coddle her, 00:11:13.520 --> 00:11:16.940 aiming to avoid raising another generation burdened by these same challenges. 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:20.360 I would greatly appreciate any insights or advice, particularly on maintaining 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.580 a healthy emotional environment for my kids in this complex situation. 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.540 Thanks for your invaluable guidance and any recommendations on episodes related 00:11:27.540 --> 00:11:29.940 to parenting with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner, 00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:32.960 in addition to the ones that you've already done, would be a bonus. 00:11:33.400 --> 00:11:39.360 Sincerely, in their name. So I thought, why not create a new episode and talk more about this? 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:44.920 Let me just start by diving into just the, I mean, it's very intriguing, 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:48.800 but it's so fundamental about human nature, especially in the context of co-parenting 00:11:48.800 --> 00:11:51.120 with a narcissist or an emotionally immature individual. 00:11:51.400 --> 00:11:55.900 And it's that concept that I make lightheartedly, but it's that every kid could 00:11:55.900 --> 00:11:57.940 in essence be seen as a little narcissist. 00:11:57.940 --> 00:12:02.160 So, I really do say this with a light heart and a smile because at their core, 00:12:02.300 --> 00:12:06.440 not only are children adorable, but they are naturally what's called egocentric. 00:12:06.680 --> 00:12:10.480 They primarily view the world through their own lens. And it's not a fault, 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:11.780 it's just how they're wired. 00:12:12.140 --> 00:12:15.360 They don't often consider what somebody else might be experiencing because their 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.280 developmental stage focuses on their own needs and perceptions. 00:12:19.040 --> 00:12:23.060 And without going all the way back into the abandonment attachment speech from 00:12:23.060 --> 00:12:27.180 the womb, if you really just think about it from the moment that a baby enters 00:12:27.180 --> 00:12:29.900 the world, their main mission though is to get their needs met. 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:33.860 They cry, what happens? Parents rush in to feed them, change them, 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:36.000 comfort them. This is a survival instinct. 00:12:36.300 --> 00:12:40.440 So then babies and young kids don't have the capacity to meet their own needs. 00:12:40.780 --> 00:12:43.360 They're too squishy and small. 00:12:43.780 --> 00:12:47.660 They rely on their expressions, whether it's crying, demanding, 00:12:47.660 --> 00:12:52.160 even manipulating in their innocent way, batting those little eyes or just being 00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:56.040 adorable and cute, to ensure that somebody notices and responds. 00:12:57.051 --> 00:13:00.691 And this all stems from that deep-seated attachment and abandonment framework. 00:13:01.031 --> 00:13:04.991 We're all born with this innate programming to ensure our survival. 00:13:05.091 --> 00:13:06.311 It makes sense when you look at it that way. 00:13:06.591 --> 00:13:10.331 So as we grow, we learn different methods of expressing ourselves to get our needs met. 00:13:10.511 --> 00:13:13.891 And this can manifest in a ton of different forms, asking very politely, 00:13:13.911 --> 00:13:16.471 or demanding, or withdrawing, or even manipulating. 00:13:16.631 --> 00:13:19.011 And it's all part of our human developmental journey. 00:13:19.411 --> 00:13:24.491 So why is this important when talking about co-parenting with somebody who is 00:13:24.491 --> 00:13:25.791 narcissistic or emotionally immature? 00:13:25.791 --> 00:13:30.811 I think it's crucial because understanding this natural self-centered phase 00:13:30.811 --> 00:13:33.731 of childhood helps us distinguish between normal, 00:13:33.911 --> 00:13:37.611 and I'm going to use that word loosely, but normal developmental behavior and 00:13:37.611 --> 00:13:42.271 then the more, we'll call them concerning patterns that we might see in a narcissistic adult. 00:13:42.531 --> 00:13:47.051 Because an emotionally immature parent might not have fully transitioned from 00:13:47.051 --> 00:13:49.171 this phase of prioritizing their own needs, 00:13:49.331 --> 00:13:54.151 often at the expense of others, including their And I think that concept is 00:13:54.151 --> 00:13:58.651 where it really starts to make sense that they may not have transitioned from 00:13:58.651 --> 00:14:01.851 that phase in childhood because it wasn't modeled. 00:14:01.951 --> 00:14:04.151 They didn't see that happening with their own parents. 00:14:04.371 --> 00:14:07.651 They didn't have a secure attachment. So they really did feel like it's every 00:14:07.651 --> 00:14:09.051 man, woman or child for themselves. 00:14:10.393 --> 00:14:13.253 So as we kind of look further into this today, I would love to just keep in 00:14:13.253 --> 00:14:16.073 the back of your mind this fundamental aspect of human development and how it 00:14:16.073 --> 00:14:20.693 shapes our interactions, both as kids and as adults, and how if this has been 00:14:20.693 --> 00:14:22.733 what has been going on since birth, 00:14:22.893 --> 00:14:28.033 straight from the birth canal on to now some mid-40s, a year old adult, 00:14:28.233 --> 00:14:31.193 hopefully you can see that it's been happening for a long time. 00:14:31.293 --> 00:14:34.313 It is just the way that this person thinks or feels or is. 00:14:34.573 --> 00:14:39.333 So if you are even trying to figure this out, then you are so much further along 00:14:39.333 --> 00:14:42.013 on this path of awakening or discovery. 00:14:42.333 --> 00:14:47.073 And I'm not saying that you need to now go flaunt that, but I'm going to say, man, I see you. 00:14:47.153 --> 00:14:50.373 And this is how we change the whole world, one person at a time, 00:14:50.373 --> 00:14:51.473 you and then to your kids. 00:14:51.813 --> 00:14:56.193 So that's why I love talking about this stuff. It is a fascinating journey of understanding. 00:14:56.553 --> 00:15:01.553 And it makes me so happy when somebody like the listeners are here and they 00:15:01.553 --> 00:15:03.013 want to explore it as well. 00:15:03.113 --> 00:15:06.673 When we talk about this concept of this emotionally immature parent might not 00:15:06.673 --> 00:15:09.713 have fully transitioned from the phase of prioritizing their own needs, 00:15:09.853 --> 00:15:15.073 often at the expense of others, then I want to talk about what the healthy version of that looks like. 00:15:15.193 --> 00:15:20.293 Self-care is not selfish, but as adults, we often feel that we have to put our 00:15:20.293 --> 00:15:22.373 needs and wants second to everybody else. 00:15:22.813 --> 00:15:25.873 I think it's important to suss that out a little bit. And this is where if somebody 00:15:25.873 --> 00:15:30.953 is just all in their yeah buts trying to prove me wrong or just they want to 00:15:30.953 --> 00:15:32.453 be heard, which is no problem. 00:15:32.693 --> 00:15:37.253 I'm not saying that I am right, but I'm presenting data data and it might be 00:15:37.253 --> 00:15:40.353 a little bit uncomfortable. And so that is an opportunity for you to differentiate and grow. 00:15:40.493 --> 00:15:43.433 And part of that differentiation process might be, yeah, I think this guy's 00:15:43.433 --> 00:15:45.933 a nut job. And if that's the case, no worries. 00:15:46.473 --> 00:15:50.973 So then it would be your opportunity to then continue to seek some person, 00:15:51.053 --> 00:15:54.793 some way, something that you identify more with or something that you feel like 00:15:54.793 --> 00:15:57.573 you can take action on. Maybe that's a better way to put it. 00:15:57.933 --> 00:16:01.733 So the distinction between something like healthy self-care and then emotionally 00:16:01.733 --> 00:16:07.313 immature selfishness, it's a critical aspect of emotional intelligence and personal development. 00:16:07.533 --> 00:16:10.993 Let me talk about healthy self-care and I'm going to look at this, 00:16:11.013 --> 00:16:14.573 we'll call this emotionally mature selfishness, I guess in a way. 00:16:14.833 --> 00:16:17.733 Let's take some definitions or examples. So healthy self-care, 00:16:17.853 --> 00:16:22.053 it would involve recognizing and tending to your own needs in a way that does 00:16:22.053 --> 00:16:24.233 not harm or unduly neglect the needs of others. 00:16:24.333 --> 00:16:28.773 So as an example, taking time for oneself to exercise or meditate or engage 00:16:28.773 --> 00:16:31.753 in a hobby are examples of healthy self-care. It's about balance. 00:16:31.953 --> 00:16:35.093 It's about ensuring that you You are mentally and physically and emotionally 00:16:35.093 --> 00:16:38.153 fit to be present and supportive in your relationships. 00:16:39.362 --> 00:16:42.742 So that it isn't something where you are continually taking on this victim mentality 00:16:42.742 --> 00:16:45.542 or feeling like I have to take care of everybody else first, 00:16:45.682 --> 00:16:49.362 even to my own detriment, because then I find myself complaining or doing the 00:16:49.362 --> 00:16:53.122 woe is me story so that everybody else in my mind still thinks that, 00:16:53.142 --> 00:16:58.382 oh, they will now recognize me and help me and want to continue to be with me and take care of me. 00:16:58.382 --> 00:17:00.942 But that goes back to that childhood stuff that we were talking about earlier 00:17:00.942 --> 00:17:07.142 is that it's in our core, our DNA, the way that we show up to make sure that we get our needs met. 00:17:07.222 --> 00:17:10.482 But we are starting to transition to meeting our own needs so that we can show 00:17:10.482 --> 00:17:14.062 up more emotionally consistent and mature in our relationships. 00:17:14.862 --> 00:17:18.722 When you practice healthy self-care, it has a positive ripple effect on your 00:17:18.722 --> 00:17:21.722 relationships. And this is definitely something that people don't know that 00:17:21.722 --> 00:17:25.442 they don't know because when you are doing that, you are showing up more patient 00:17:25.442 --> 00:17:28.402 and understanding and empathetic because your own cup is full. 00:17:28.682 --> 00:17:31.702 So then it's a little bit easier to give to others without feeling depleted 00:17:31.702 --> 00:17:35.782 or resentful, even if you feel like you have a desire or need to give. 00:17:35.782 --> 00:17:39.102 I mean, I like to often say it's more about having these shared experiences 00:17:39.102 --> 00:17:44.002 and being there to help guide those who are close to you, having more of an 00:17:44.002 --> 00:17:47.142 influence, but not trying to exert any type of control. 00:17:47.142 --> 00:17:49.802 Control and what is one of the strangest and 00:17:49.802 --> 00:17:52.902 most difficult things as a recovering emotionally immature human being 00:17:52.902 --> 00:17:55.762 is that when you start to practice healthy self-care and 00:17:55.762 --> 00:18:01.082 you show up and you are just being and doing that it's so hard not to even want 00:18:01.082 --> 00:18:05.802 to comment on your own self-care because we're still so used to or wired to 00:18:05.802 --> 00:18:08.482 getting validation from others that we even want validation on the stuff that's 00:18:08.482 --> 00:18:12.682 helping us move away from needing validation which is part part of when you 00:18:12.682 --> 00:18:14.502 know that, okay, maybe this is starting to click. 00:18:14.642 --> 00:18:18.742 It also is this part of the developmental aspect of becoming an adult. 00:18:18.842 --> 00:18:21.562 Because as an adult, it's crucial to recognize that caring for ourselves is 00:18:21.562 --> 00:18:23.322 not a selfish act. It's a necessary one. 00:18:23.622 --> 00:18:27.122 And it involves setting boundaries, which remember, a boundary is a you thing. 00:18:27.602 --> 00:18:31.002 And we often get boundaries confused with ultimatums. If I'm telling somebody, 00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:33.462 you better not ever do that again, that's an ultimatum. 00:18:33.582 --> 00:18:36.402 A boundary is, if you do that, then I will exit. 00:18:37.022 --> 00:18:40.042 And that can be done in a much more calm way. It doesn't mean that the person 00:18:40.042 --> 00:18:43.482 that you are setting the boundary with or from is going to say, 00:18:43.562 --> 00:18:45.542 oh my gosh, you finally set boundaries. I'm so impressed. 00:18:45.782 --> 00:18:48.042 Oh, typically they're going to, especially if they're immature, 00:18:48.362 --> 00:18:51.322 they're going to find themselves testing the boundary, pushing the boundary. 00:18:52.218 --> 00:18:55.778 So setting those boundaries, saying no when needed, and making time for our 00:18:55.778 --> 00:18:58.978 own well-being is really, really difficult until it becomes easier. 00:18:59.178 --> 00:19:03.078 And I think that's probably the most simplistic way to say it, but it's true. 00:19:03.618 --> 00:19:07.638 And from just a pure psychological perspective, healthy self-care is linked 00:19:07.638 --> 00:19:09.818 to concepts like self-compassion and resilience. 00:19:09.978 --> 00:19:14.838 And it's about acknowledging your own needs while maintaining empathy and consideration for others. 00:19:15.318 --> 00:19:19.498 Now, let's take a look at what this means, the selfishness from an emotionally 00:19:19.498 --> 00:19:20.718 immature standpoint. standpoint. 00:19:20.998 --> 00:19:24.478 So that emotionally immature selfishness is characterized more by prioritizing 00:19:24.478 --> 00:19:27.518 one's own needs and desires in a way that disregards or harms others. 00:19:27.978 --> 00:19:31.918 So what does that look like? You can continually choose activities that suit 00:19:31.918 --> 00:19:34.738 only yourself, ignoring the needs and feelings of family members or partners, 00:19:34.858 --> 00:19:38.558 or failing to contribute fairly and maybe shared family responsibilities. 00:19:39.018 --> 00:19:42.958 And also a lack of emotional consistency, planning to do something but saying, 00:19:43.038 --> 00:19:46.158 yeah, I'll do it to get you out of that discomfort in the moment or even to 00:19:46.158 --> 00:19:48.518 get the validation in the the moment, but then the weekend rolls around. 00:19:48.598 --> 00:19:49.398 It's like, I'm not doing that. 00:19:49.518 --> 00:19:52.058 I'm too tired. And then wait, what do you want from me? 00:19:52.338 --> 00:19:56.038 And here comes the gaslighting. And so those around you are going to feel like, 00:19:56.138 --> 00:19:59.118 goes back to that, they never know which version of you they're going to get. 00:19:59.158 --> 00:20:01.958 And then they're starting to tiptoe and walk around eggshells. 00:20:02.378 --> 00:20:05.538 That form of selfishness then leads so often, as you can see, 00:20:05.558 --> 00:20:09.298 to conflict, resentment, a breakdown in relationships, because it lacks the 00:20:09.298 --> 00:20:12.158 balance and empathy found in healthy self-care. 00:20:12.458 --> 00:20:17.718 And it can lead to a cycle where selfish individuals' needs are met at the expense 00:20:17.718 --> 00:20:20.678 of others, where they eventually are going to wear those down around them to 00:20:20.678 --> 00:20:22.058 where those people finally say, sure, fine. 00:20:22.578 --> 00:20:27.878 And then the person who is immature says, okay, good. And you would have, are we cool? 00:20:28.358 --> 00:20:32.078 No, we're not cool. But nobody feels like they can say anything anymore. 00:20:32.498 --> 00:20:35.598 And if we go back to that developmental aspect, this aligns with the earlier 00:20:35.598 --> 00:20:39.918 point about individuals who struggle to transition from the natural self-centered 00:20:39.918 --> 00:20:43.278 stage of early childhood into a more balanced, empathetic adult state. 00:20:44.098 --> 00:20:47.898 And then from a psychological perspective, psychologists might see this as a 00:20:47.898 --> 00:20:51.278 failure in developing certain emotional and social skills, such as empathy, 00:20:51.578 --> 00:20:56.018 reciprocity, or the ability to balance your needs with the needs of others. 00:20:56.418 --> 00:20:59.978 But I think this is so much of a we don't know what we don't know that we feel 00:20:59.978 --> 00:21:02.518 like we're doing something wrong if we're engaging in self-care. 00:21:02.818 --> 00:21:06.478 And self-care does not just mean getting a pedicure and going on a run. 00:21:06.558 --> 00:21:11.658 It can be just starting to allow yourself to think and feel and dream and just 00:21:11.658 --> 00:21:14.878 start to picture what something else could look like in your life. 00:21:14.998 --> 00:21:18.718 That may be all that some people can do, especially those people that feel like 00:21:18.718 --> 00:21:21.158 they're in emotionally immature or narcissistic relationships. 00:21:21.518 --> 00:21:24.758 And also, the more that we get research on narcissism, emotional immaturity, 00:21:24.938 --> 00:21:29.738 then that highlights the detrimental impact of failing to develop beyond a self-centered worldview. 00:21:30.578 --> 00:21:34.738 Of failing to admit that there are things that we may not know because that's 00:21:34.738 --> 00:21:38.958 a powerful feeling to then show up into the world or any situation with curiosity, 00:21:39.278 --> 00:21:42.638 of course, knowing that there there are things that we don't know that we don't know. 00:21:42.898 --> 00:21:46.138 One of my daughters had shared a video that she saw with me and she said, 00:21:46.218 --> 00:21:47.058 dad, what's your take on this? 00:21:47.238 --> 00:21:50.378 And it was somebody that was saying that to the incredibly intelligent that 00:21:50.378 --> 00:21:55.258 therapy is something that is not helpful because they already know all the things 00:21:55.258 --> 00:21:56.238 that therapist is going to say. 00:21:56.758 --> 00:22:00.738 And I felt like all I need to do is pause and say, well, as you're saying that one out loud, 00:22:00.938 --> 00:22:04.378 there's somebody that they're literally having to go out and tell the world 00:22:04.378 --> 00:22:06.998 that they are so smart that they don't need therapy because because they already 00:22:06.998 --> 00:22:12.438 know all the things that therapists will say, even though they have no idea what I'm going to say. 00:22:12.738 --> 00:22:17.358 So the emotional immaturity or arrogance in that alone is going to ensure that 00:22:17.358 --> 00:22:19.578 they are only going to have to do the things that they want to do, 00:22:19.618 --> 00:22:22.458 because they already know what the other things are going to bring them, 00:22:22.538 --> 00:22:23.538 which is going to be nothing. 00:22:23.918 --> 00:22:27.758 So that person's already got life all figured out, and probably not a lot of 00:22:27.758 --> 00:22:29.338 fun at parties, in my personal opinion. 00:22:30.198 --> 00:22:34.238 So that difference, though, lies in balance and empathy, because Because healthy 00:22:34.238 --> 00:22:37.298 self-care is about maintaining your own well-being in a way that also respects 00:22:37.298 --> 00:22:39.058 and considers the well-being of others. 00:22:39.178 --> 00:22:42.418 And then that emotionally immature selfishness overlooks the balance, 00:22:42.618 --> 00:22:45.398 focuses on the self to the detriment of other people. 00:22:45.618 --> 00:22:48.458 And that is a critical distinction, especially in the context of, 00:22:48.478 --> 00:22:50.938 let's go back to like co-parenting and personal relationships. 00:22:52.128 --> 00:22:57.148 So let me give you a very quick example of what that would look like to illustrate these concepts. 00:22:57.228 --> 00:23:01.848 Let's say planning a weekend getaway. And we have the characters in our play 00:23:01.848 --> 00:23:05.668 or our situation will be Jordan, who is a working parent in a relationship with Alex. 00:23:05.848 --> 00:23:11.028 So narrative one, healthy self-care. We're talking about emotionally mature selfishness. 00:23:11.288 --> 00:23:15.048 So in this situation, Jordan had a stressful week at work and feels the need 00:23:15.048 --> 00:23:16.448 for some personal time during the weekend. 00:23:16.728 --> 00:23:19.008 And so then the action they take, they communicate. 00:23:19.548 --> 00:23:21.908 Here's the key. They communicate that need to their partner, 00:23:21.948 --> 00:23:26.048 Alex, explaining, I've had a tough week. I really need to feel like I have some time to recharge. 00:23:26.368 --> 00:23:28.888 So I'm thinking about spending Saturday morning doing something just for me, 00:23:28.928 --> 00:23:30.788 maybe like a good old long bike ride. 00:23:31.108 --> 00:23:34.348 So the balance, Jordan's also acknowledging the family's needs saying, 00:23:34.408 --> 00:23:37.168 but hey, let's make sure we have quality family time later Saturday. 00:23:37.488 --> 00:23:40.968 Or do you have anything planned? Do you already have something in mind? 00:23:41.208 --> 00:23:44.188 And if not, then yeah, let's for sure plan on something fun together. 00:23:44.508 --> 00:23:48.488 Assuming though that that time that I want to take is available. 00:23:49.068 --> 00:23:51.908 And now come, Jordan enjoys the bike ride, feels refreshed, energized. 00:23:52.008 --> 00:23:55.928 And then later that afternoon and then on Sunday, they have an amazing family 00:23:55.928 --> 00:23:58.508 day out and Jordan is fully engaged and present. 00:23:58.748 --> 00:24:01.788 So now let's go back and look at that narrative from an emotionally immature 00:24:01.788 --> 00:24:03.188 or selfish perspective. 00:24:03.768 --> 00:24:07.248 Situation, the same stressful week for Jordan, but instead of communicating 00:24:07.248 --> 00:24:11.388 effectively, Jordan decides without discussion to take the entire weekend for 00:24:11.388 --> 00:24:14.968 personal activities and ignoring already made plans with Alex and the whole family. 00:24:15.268 --> 00:24:20.688 So the behavior, when Alex brings up the issue, too, which Alex does very sheepishly, 00:24:20.688 --> 00:24:23.528 brings out the eggshells and drops them on the ground and says, 00:24:23.628 --> 00:24:24.928 man, I think I'm going to be walking on these. 00:24:25.408 --> 00:24:29.668 And Jordan gets very defensive. Hey, look, I had a hard week and I need some 00:24:29.668 --> 00:24:32.828 time for myself. I'm going to lose my mind. I feel like if anybody you should understand that. 00:24:33.368 --> 00:24:36.268 So at that point, then Alex feels disregarded, feels frustrated. 00:24:36.448 --> 00:24:41.328 The kids are disappointed and the tension in the household is at an all-time high. 00:24:41.448 --> 00:24:46.168 And therefore, four, Jordan's actions now create this whole imbalance in the 00:24:46.168 --> 00:24:49.188 family dynamic and people feeling a sense of neglect. 00:24:49.408 --> 00:24:52.608 And what does that lead to is, sure, there are going to be things that are going 00:24:52.608 --> 00:24:56.588 to happen, things that are going to come up over time, but the discomfort for 00:24:56.588 --> 00:25:02.088 Jordan to work through, in my opinion, would be following through on family commitments. 00:25:02.308 --> 00:25:07.788 And then what gets so layered and deep in a wonderful, amazing way that if Jordan 00:25:07.788 --> 00:25:11.348 makes commitments during the week before Jordan feels overwhelmed by the week, 00:25:11.428 --> 00:25:15.188 then that needs to be the area that Jordan can start to self-confront and grow. 00:25:15.688 --> 00:25:20.008 Oh, well, when I'm saying it, I mean it in that moment, but then later I don't 00:25:20.008 --> 00:25:22.528 because then the rest of the week plays out and I get overwhelmed. 00:25:22.888 --> 00:25:27.208 So I need to either have the courage to say, you know what, right now I feel 00:25:27.208 --> 00:25:30.468 like I could do that, but can we just check back midweek and let's see. 00:25:30.848 --> 00:25:34.888 So that's where every opportunity or every interaction Action truly does become 00:25:34.888 --> 00:25:37.828 an opportunity to self-confront and grow. 00:25:38.526 --> 00:25:41.386 And what I next want to talk about is something I don't think I've talked about 00:25:41.386 --> 00:25:42.546 in a long time on the podcast. 00:25:42.606 --> 00:25:48.006 And that is, it's these concepts of, I mentioned earlier, egocentronic and egodistronic. 00:25:48.206 --> 00:25:51.806 And so here's your nerdy psychology lesson for the day. Because these are pretty 00:25:51.806 --> 00:25:54.966 relevant in understanding behavior of children and particularly in the context 00:25:54.966 --> 00:26:01.186 of whether we're talking about co-parenting within the household or with a narcissistic 00:26:01.186 --> 00:26:04.066 or emotionally immature person after divorce or separation. 00:26:04.906 --> 00:26:09.846 So, egocentronic, it refers to thoughts and behaviors and values that are in 00:26:09.846 --> 00:26:14.766 harmony with or they're acceptable to the needs and goals of the ego or they're 00:26:14.766 --> 00:26:16.946 consistent with your ideal self-image. 00:26:16.946 --> 00:26:20.826 I mean, in simpler terms, if we're talking about ego-syntonic, 00:26:21.006 --> 00:26:25.526 these are behaviors or feelings that align with a person's sense of self. 00:26:25.726 --> 00:26:29.006 So if you're looking at kids and children, especially little kids, 00:26:29.066 --> 00:26:33.546 many behaviors are ego-syntonic because they naturally align with their immediate desires and needs. 00:26:33.886 --> 00:26:37.106 Because kids are inherently focused on their own experiences and needs, 00:26:37.286 --> 00:26:40.966 and this is the stage I refer to as little tiny narcissists. 00:26:40.966 --> 00:26:44.706 So for them, demanding attention, expressing needs without considering others 00:26:44.706 --> 00:26:48.446 being the center of their own universe is perfectly aligned with their sense 00:26:48.446 --> 00:26:50.986 of self. It kind of feels right and justified. 00:26:51.366 --> 00:26:54.386 So I say if the little kid wasn't doing that, that actually might be a problem 00:26:54.386 --> 00:26:58.706 because that means that they aren't even allowed to explore or express themselves as a little kid. 00:26:59.046 --> 00:27:02.426 So their behavior would be perfectly aligned with their sense of self. 00:27:02.466 --> 00:27:03.606 It would be egocentronic. 00:27:04.026 --> 00:27:07.026 Now look at egodistonic. So those behaviors, on the other hand, 00:27:07.026 --> 00:27:11.666 are those that are in conflict or dissonant. the ego dystonic dissonant to the 00:27:11.666 --> 00:27:14.626 ego or inconsistent with their ideal self-image. 00:27:14.726 --> 00:27:19.186 So these are thoughts, behaviors that a person finds uncomfortable or distressing 00:27:19.186 --> 00:27:21.226 or inconsistent with their self-perception. 00:27:21.486 --> 00:27:26.866 So if we look at that with kids, kids might exhibit ego dystonic behavior when 00:27:26.866 --> 00:27:31.286 they're forced to act in ways that don't align with their natural self-focused behavior. 00:27:31.546 --> 00:27:34.586 A real simple version of this, which is kind of funny when you look at it, 00:27:34.626 --> 00:27:38.046 is sharing toys against their will or following rules that they don't understand 00:27:38.046 --> 00:27:41.606 or agree with or being compelled held to consider others' feelings when they 00:27:41.606 --> 00:27:45.026 aren't developmentally ready, that can be ego-dystonic for them. 00:27:45.286 --> 00:27:48.846 When we say, no, you have to share, I mean, if the little kid is seriously like, 00:27:48.946 --> 00:27:52.886 I have no idea what you're talking about, old man, because this is my doll and 00:27:52.886 --> 00:27:57.166 that little kid over there took it. I mean, to them, it's like, this is insane. 00:27:57.606 --> 00:28:00.686 We should be all grabbing pitchforks and why aren't you defending me? 00:28:01.286 --> 00:28:04.546 When you apply these concepts to co-parenting with a narcissist or emotionally 00:28:04.546 --> 00:28:07.046 immature person, so if you're really taking a look at child behavior, 00:28:07.066 --> 00:28:10.306 recognizing that children are naturally egocentronic with self-focused behavior, 00:28:10.546 --> 00:28:13.126 it will help you understand a little bit why they act the way they do. 00:28:13.206 --> 00:28:16.606 Because it's not out of malice or deliberate selfishness at the developmental stage. 00:28:17.206 --> 00:28:20.226 Now, distinguishing that from adult narcissism, now we're talking. 00:28:20.506 --> 00:28:25.666 Because adult narcissism or emotional immaturity in a co-parent might be egocentronic 00:28:25.666 --> 00:28:27.206 when it involves self-centered behavior. 00:28:27.366 --> 00:28:31.746 Because again, they don't understand what the big fuss is, they're just doing what's best for them. 00:28:32.423 --> 00:28:36.043 Unlike children, however, adults have developed, or the hope is that they've 00:28:36.043 --> 00:28:39.043 developed the capacity to understand and consider others' needs. 00:28:39.583 --> 00:28:42.463 So I hope you can start to see why I think this stuff is so important to know. 00:28:42.863 --> 00:28:45.103 Now, one of the difficulties, we'll probably talk about this later, 00:28:45.203 --> 00:28:47.863 is that now that you know, you're going to want to go tell the person, 00:28:47.923 --> 00:28:50.343 and that can be not so helpful. 00:28:50.343 --> 00:28:53.363 But persistent egocentronic narcissism in 00:28:53.363 --> 00:28:56.403 adults is problematic because it disregards this developmental ability 00:28:56.403 --> 00:28:59.743 for them to become more emotionally 00:28:59.743 --> 00:29:05.443 mature so they are still acting as a little child acting egocentronic thinking 00:29:05.443 --> 00:29:08.623 that they're doing things that match or align with their own sense of self or 00:29:08.623 --> 00:29:12.483 ego that well they're doing it they're telling you yes right now because they 00:29:12.483 --> 00:29:15.163 mean yes right now and they're going to tell you no later because they mean 00:29:15.163 --> 00:29:17.803 no later and that has nothing to do with you. 00:29:18.183 --> 00:29:21.363 Then when co-parenting with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner, 00:29:21.503 --> 00:29:25.903 understanding these concepts of ego-syntonic or ego-dystonic, 00:29:25.923 --> 00:29:29.583 it helps in distinguishing between typical child behavior and then potentially 00:29:29.583 --> 00:29:30.823 harmful behavior of an adult. 00:29:31.023 --> 00:29:34.743 Because it also then kind of underscores the importance of fostering a healthy 00:29:34.743 --> 00:29:35.623 development in children. 00:29:36.163 --> 00:29:41.743 Guiding them, which is the key, gently, which is also key, from a naturally 00:29:41.743 --> 00:29:45.583 self-centered stage to a more balanced and empathetic understanding of others. 00:29:45.983 --> 00:29:50.243 So these behaviors, the notions of egocentronic and egodistonic behaviors, 00:29:50.463 --> 00:29:54.163 they start to provide a framework for understanding the normal self-centeredness 00:29:54.163 --> 00:29:56.443 of children, where every little kid's a narcissist, 00:29:56.723 --> 00:30:01.263 and distinguishing it from the problematic self-centeredness of a narcissistic 00:30:01.263 --> 00:30:02.423 or emotionally immature adult. 00:30:02.623 --> 00:30:08.043 And I think that understanding, whether it's for you you or you in being in 00:30:08.043 --> 00:30:12.503 a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature or navigating the complexities 00:30:12.503 --> 00:30:16.223 of co-parenting in those situations, then I think it can help so much. 00:30:16.403 --> 00:30:19.323 And so next, we're going to talk about now that you have this data, 00:30:19.383 --> 00:30:24.303 this information, how do you communicate or is there a way to communicate more effectively? 00:30:24.803 --> 00:30:27.183 And I'll give you the little heads up if you're thinking, okay, 00:30:27.243 --> 00:30:31.583 so now how do we get on the same page? Oh, bless your heart. Like that's adorable. 00:30:31.743 --> 00:30:34.603 But we're going to give you tools on how you show up different next. 00:30:34.603 --> 00:30:39.163 I believe this is where my beloved four pillars of a connected conversation come into play. 00:30:39.283 --> 00:30:44.023 I can share some links in the show notes of where you can go to find out more about those. 00:30:44.123 --> 00:30:49.043 And they are a huge part of my magnetic marriage course, which is the revamped 00:30:49.043 --> 00:30:50.763 version is coming out soon. 00:30:50.883 --> 00:30:52.963 So just get on the mailing list. That would be the plug there. 00:30:53.975 --> 00:30:58.755 I'm going to go through what those are, the four pillars, and especially with 00:30:58.755 --> 00:31:04.735 regard to having it be a framework or more of a structured approach for a meaningful 00:31:04.735 --> 00:31:08.995 conversation in a relationship with somebody who is more emotionally immature. 00:31:09.275 --> 00:31:14.015 And by meaningful, I guess I'm saying that this will at least give you a sense 00:31:14.015 --> 00:31:18.855 of sanity or help you feel more empowered when you start to think that the conversation 00:31:18.855 --> 00:31:20.155 is going out into the rails. 00:31:20.155 --> 00:31:25.715 And I realize as I am coming back to record after editing the episode that that 00:31:25.715 --> 00:31:27.455 is not something that you are aware of. 00:31:27.475 --> 00:31:30.135 I could have just slid this right in and made it seem like it was 00:31:30.135 --> 00:31:33.155 just seamless and part of the initial recording but I 00:31:33.155 --> 00:31:37.855 guess I do want validation and I want this to be very dramatic so if I was going 00:31:37.855 --> 00:31:43.115 to do it at any time I would cue some very intense music right now but I'm about 00:31:43.115 --> 00:31:49.035 to go on a pretty lengthy jag about my four pillars and doing so in a lot of 00:31:49.035 --> 00:31:50.795 different contexts around the emotionally immature. 00:31:51.255 --> 00:31:55.275 And I think that it is very important to note that I noticed as I was doing 00:31:55.275 --> 00:32:00.915 the editing that I'm sounding like here is a way to fix the relationship with 00:32:00.915 --> 00:32:04.635 your emotionally immature partner, or here is the keys to communicating with 00:32:04.635 --> 00:32:05.715 your emotionally immature partner. 00:32:05.855 --> 00:32:10.875 And I want you to know that that is not the case. If that happens, that would be amazing. 00:32:11.075 --> 00:32:15.395 And that's why I do stand so strong on my four pillars of a connected conversation, 00:32:15.395 --> 00:32:20.695 Because I've used those in 1500 plus couples situations as a couples therapist 00:32:20.695 --> 00:32:25.915 now over the last 15 plus years, there are a lot of new listeners to Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:32:25.935 --> 00:32:30.315 And I feel like this wouldn't be a bad idea to just do a quick check in and say, 00:32:30.415 --> 00:32:35.195 one of the main premises behind starting this entire podcast was in communicating 00:32:35.195 --> 00:32:40.555 that working with the population of people who are finding themselves in the 00:32:40.555 --> 00:32:44.635 relationships with the emotionally immature or narcissistic person in their life, 00:32:44.635 --> 00:32:49.835 that when they start identifying with or reading or just feeling like, 00:32:49.895 --> 00:32:51.315 okay, this narcissism thing, 00:32:51.415 --> 00:32:55.015 there's something there, that then most everything you read says, 00:32:55.295 --> 00:32:58.615 all right, right now, just cut off all conversation, communication, 00:32:58.935 --> 00:33:01.515 go no contact and run for the hills. 00:33:01.715 --> 00:33:05.415 But I know that that is not the way it actually works as a real couples therapist 00:33:05.415 --> 00:33:09.435 who is working with real human beings, especially people who don't know what they don't know. 00:33:09.535 --> 00:33:13.535 And typically people that are the pathologically kind finding themselves in 00:33:13.535 --> 00:33:17.355 the relationship with the emotionally mature narcissist, as my friend Ross Rosenberg 00:33:17.355 --> 00:33:18.855 calls it, that human magnet syndrome. 00:33:20.297 --> 00:33:24.117 When people are starting to wake up to that, hence the name of the entire podcast, 00:33:24.417 --> 00:33:27.897 that they start feeling like, wait a minute, am I? Am I the narcissist? 00:33:28.437 --> 00:33:32.777 Or I don't even know what this means. And this can't be what I'm in because 00:33:32.777 --> 00:33:38.357 I've been in this marriage for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years. So it can't be that. 00:33:38.917 --> 00:33:42.977 So then people do continue, even if they do the five things that I recommend, 00:33:43.157 --> 00:33:46.837 raising their emotional baseline, self-care, getting their PhD in gaslighting, 00:33:46.857 --> 00:33:49.877 getting out of of unproductive conversations, setting healthy boundaries and 00:33:49.877 --> 00:33:53.577 knowing that the boundary is going to be the challenge to the emotionally immature narcissist. 00:33:53.957 --> 00:33:59.617 And that last one that I cannot give this other person the aha moment or the 00:33:59.617 --> 00:34:04.077 epiphany that that has to come from them, that I still watch people do that 00:34:04.077 --> 00:34:08.817 over and over and over again, trying to now with this new data, this new information, 00:34:08.997 --> 00:34:14.457 now I can present this to the person that I am being told might be emotionally 00:34:14.457 --> 00:34:17.777 immature, Sure, might even be narcissistic, but I don't think that's the case. 00:34:17.797 --> 00:34:19.997 Let me just explain it to them this way. 00:34:20.137 --> 00:34:23.317 And then it doesn't work. And they continually do that over and over again. 00:34:23.757 --> 00:34:28.077 So with all of that said, this is with that acceptance that most people are 00:34:28.077 --> 00:34:31.897 still trying to figure out how emotionally immature is my partner? 00:34:31.977 --> 00:34:33.357 How emotionally immature am I? 00:34:34.098 --> 00:34:36.958 And still going back to this narrative that they want to tell themselves, 00:34:36.978 --> 00:34:41.498 maybe I am the narcissist, but I immediately say, you're not if you're the one 00:34:41.498 --> 00:34:45.518 that's questioning it because you are here trying to figure this out, doing the work. 00:34:45.638 --> 00:34:48.658 Yes, we can all start from a place that we are all emotionally immature, 00:34:48.918 --> 00:34:52.238 but if you are trying to find the tools, it's natural to yeah, 00:34:52.318 --> 00:34:56.278 but them, or I do that too, but you're here and you're trying to implement new tools. 00:34:56.318 --> 00:34:59.898 So the four pillars of a connected conversation that I'm about to go into great 00:34:59.898 --> 00:35:04.738 detail on, It is a framework and I love frameworks to operate from as I'm about 00:35:04.738 --> 00:35:08.538 to go on and on about in this next probably 10 or 15 minutes that you will see. 00:35:08.858 --> 00:35:14.598 But I really feel like that is the case where it is a tool to use for your own 00:35:14.598 --> 00:35:20.278 sanity or as you are still trying to rule out how emotionally immature is my 00:35:20.278 --> 00:35:23.618 partner and in is my relationship. 00:35:23.618 --> 00:35:26.498 Relationship so now back to 00:35:26.498 --> 00:35:29.618 the regularly scheduled podcast we're going 00:35:29.618 --> 00:35:32.318 to attack the four pillars from a few different angles first we're going 00:35:32.318 --> 00:35:35.098 to talk about how they would help if you are in 00:35:35.098 --> 00:35:37.758 the challenging dynamic of co-parenting or even just 00:35:37.758 --> 00:35:41.158 trying to communicate with a narcissistic or an emotionally immature partner so 00:35:41.158 --> 00:35:44.318 my pillar one is assuming good intentions or in this 00:35:44.318 --> 00:35:47.198 scenario or there's a reason why somebody shows up or acts 00:35:47.198 --> 00:35:50.258 the way that they do in the we just 00:35:50.258 --> 00:35:53.278 don't know what we don't know emotionally both of 00:35:53.278 --> 00:35:56.078 us on our way to emotional maturity version this one 00:35:56.078 --> 00:35:58.898 stops at assuming good intentions that there's no one 00:35:58.898 --> 00:36:02.218 wakes up in the morning thinks how can i hurt my partner but in the emotional immature 00:36:02.218 --> 00:36:06.598 world then when somebody is lashing out or saying very mean or degrading things 00:36:06.598 --> 00:36:10.598 i know that we can't assume they they mean well assuming good intentions but 00:36:10.598 --> 00:36:14.958 no there's a part b to this pillar one which is that there's a reason why somebody 00:36:14.958 --> 00:36:18.498 is is acting the way that they are and quite frankly it might be because Because 00:36:18.498 --> 00:36:21.258 of what we've already covered today, whether it's their ego, 00:36:21.398 --> 00:36:25.098 syntonic sense of self and feeling like, well, this is the way that I have to 00:36:25.098 --> 00:36:28.058 behave in order to get my needs met like a child. 00:36:28.553 --> 00:36:30.833 Or other reasons as well. So pillar one, assuming good intentions, 00:36:30.873 --> 00:36:32.093 the application and co-parenting. 00:36:32.113 --> 00:36:35.313 So when you are interacting with a narcissistic or an emotionally immature co-parent, 00:36:35.413 --> 00:36:40.873 it's beneficial to start from a position of just having a framework to operate from. 00:36:41.013 --> 00:36:44.613 And if that does require an assuming of good intentions, or there is a reason 00:36:44.613 --> 00:36:46.953 why this person is interacting with me the way that they are, 00:36:47.053 --> 00:36:49.533 that does not mean we're ignoring the problematic behavior, 00:36:49.693 --> 00:36:53.273 but we're approaching the conversation with the belief that at some level, 00:36:53.373 --> 00:36:57.213 that the other parent doesn't necessarily have a deliberate intent to harm, 00:36:57.213 --> 00:37:00.993 but they may be showing up as an incredibly emotionally immature human being. 00:37:01.193 --> 00:37:04.253 And this mindset can help keep the discussion more civilized, 00:37:04.293 --> 00:37:07.153 even if it's for just you from a differentiated standpoint, 00:37:07.433 --> 00:37:12.133 and focused on the child's well-being rather than personal grievances that so 00:37:12.133 --> 00:37:15.393 often get in the way because the emotionally immature person is going to continue 00:37:15.393 --> 00:37:17.113 to try to push buttons to get you to react. 00:37:17.393 --> 00:37:22.113 So even if this needs to be just a you thing, then it is a framework that you can operate from. 00:37:22.273 --> 00:37:25.993 So that pillar two, and you can start to see where these will be very important 00:37:25.993 --> 00:37:30.273 because just to have a framework to return to, because the second one, 00:37:30.273 --> 00:37:31.213 it can be equally as difficult. 00:37:31.313 --> 00:37:33.973 Avoid declaring the other person is wrong, or I don't believe them, 00:37:34.033 --> 00:37:35.993 even if I think they're wrong and I don't believe them. 00:37:36.153 --> 00:37:40.473 So that application in co-parenting is, it can be particularly challenging with the narcissist. 00:37:40.833 --> 00:37:44.553 And let me just, from moving forward, I'll just say with a narcissist, 00:37:44.673 --> 00:37:48.313 but that means narcissistic or emotionally immature person. 00:37:48.573 --> 00:37:53.913 And I'm just saying that for the sake of word count or trying to not have a 00:37:53.913 --> 00:37:55.653 mouthful of words every time. 00:37:55.713 --> 00:38:01.053 Pillar two, again, challenging with the narcissist because they will often present 00:38:01.053 --> 00:38:04.093 what will absolutely to you feel like a distorted perspective. 00:38:04.553 --> 00:38:07.333 It's a very fancy way of saying, I don't believe them. 00:38:07.553 --> 00:38:11.673 But hang with me here because if you refrain from just outright dismissing their 00:38:11.673 --> 00:38:15.673 views, even when you think they're wrong, you keep the line of communication open. 00:38:16.382 --> 00:38:20.882 And you start to recognize that this truly can be an opportunity for you to 00:38:20.882 --> 00:38:22.602 self-confront, sit with discomfort, grow. 00:38:22.922 --> 00:38:28.842 And this approach does help manage the conversation without escalating into conflict on your end. 00:38:28.982 --> 00:38:34.222 And if there were going to be a way to find a common ground for the kid's sake, 00:38:34.342 --> 00:38:37.702 then it's going to come from you being able to stay present. 00:38:37.802 --> 00:38:41.522 And by staying present doesn't even mean that I have to stay engaged in the 00:38:41.522 --> 00:38:46.322 conversation, But you being able to to be able to stay present within your own self, 00:38:46.402 --> 00:38:51.282 sense of self, your own body, even if it comes at the cost of setting a boundary 00:38:51.282 --> 00:38:58.342 of if they start to get really emotionally abusive or very loud or start gaslighting, 00:38:58.382 --> 00:39:00.162 then that's where the boundary is. 00:39:00.162 --> 00:39:05.182 Then I will leave, which then leads to pillar three, asking questions before making comments. 00:39:05.342 --> 00:39:10.262 Again, application and co-parenting, it's a crucial part of understanding the 00:39:10.262 --> 00:39:12.622 co-parent's perspective, no matter how skewed it might seem, 00:39:12.682 --> 00:39:15.542 asking questions like, hey, can you explain more about your concerns? 00:39:15.622 --> 00:39:18.122 Or tell me more about that? Or why is that something that's important to you? 00:39:18.222 --> 00:39:20.322 Or how do you see that impacting our kid? 00:39:20.502 --> 00:39:22.902 And that'll start to give you more insight into their thought process. 00:39:23.022 --> 00:39:27.102 Because I'm saying this as if you're going to have this moment where they're 00:39:27.102 --> 00:39:28.202 going to say, man, that's a great point. 00:39:28.202 --> 00:39:32.042 Because if you're at this point where you're this far into this podcast listening 00:39:32.042 --> 00:39:34.922 to this about co-parenting with a narcissist feeling like you need some new 00:39:34.922 --> 00:39:38.342 tools, then quite frankly saying, well, can you tell me more about that? 00:39:38.362 --> 00:39:39.302 Or what's that look like for you? 00:39:39.582 --> 00:39:42.882 Then you may be met with some of the greatest hits such as, really? 00:39:43.022 --> 00:39:46.882 You don't know? Oh, boy. Okay, well, there's a newsflash. You finally don't 00:39:46.882 --> 00:39:50.022 know something or whatever the button is that's going to be attempted to be 00:39:50.022 --> 00:39:51.582 pushed to get you to respond. Right. 00:39:51.905 --> 00:39:54.965 And that's why, again, I'll go back to having a framework can be so empowering 00:39:54.965 --> 00:39:57.965 because you watch the other person, the more emotionally immature or special 00:39:57.965 --> 00:39:59.905 person who can't stay in the sandbox. 00:40:00.145 --> 00:40:05.205 They can't work within this framework because it might make them more accountable 00:40:05.205 --> 00:40:08.845 or have to sit with the discomfort that they're used to getting rid of by making 00:40:08.845 --> 00:40:11.205 you lose your stuff in the process. 00:40:11.205 --> 00:40:14.205 Process so it this will in theory give 00:40:14.205 --> 00:40:17.365 you more insight into their thought process and can guide your responses 00:40:17.365 --> 00:40:20.245 in a more informed or potentially empathetic manner 00:40:20.245 --> 00:40:23.045 or allow you to know it is time for 00:40:23.045 --> 00:40:26.005 me to to follow through on my boundary and 00:40:26.005 --> 00:40:29.265 i may need to exit the conversation and then pillar four is the 00:40:29.265 --> 00:40:32.165 lean in and stay present and that application and co-parenting of 00:40:32.165 --> 00:40:35.405 staying engaged and present can be really difficult but essential 00:40:35.405 --> 00:40:38.725 because it demonstrates your commitment to the well-being of your kid so then 00:40:38.725 --> 00:40:41.585 it can lead to the staying present or 00:40:41.585 --> 00:40:44.565 not going into a victim mentality of just when they 00:40:44.565 --> 00:40:47.325 push the right button saying okay fine you do whatever the heck you want like 00:40:47.325 --> 00:40:50.705 you always have versus the okay you know what i need to leave this conversation 00:40:50.705 --> 00:40:55.925 now and avoiding that victim mindset especially when the narcissist is pushing 00:40:55.925 --> 00:41:01.805 buttons is absolutely a key to maintaining what any semblance of a constructive 00:41:01.805 --> 00:41:05.825 stance because then it's about standing firm in your perspective. 00:41:06.205 --> 00:41:10.685 And sure, you're open to dialogue, but at this point, it's pretty clear that 00:41:10.685 --> 00:41:13.465 they are not looking to have a shared connected conversation. 00:41:13.845 --> 00:41:17.745 Four pillars can come into play with the co-parenting part of just how do you 00:41:17.745 --> 00:41:18.845 show up in that conversation. 00:41:19.165 --> 00:41:25.185 And I think it's important to note as well that just that whole application of having a framework, 00:41:25.365 --> 00:41:28.405 and I keep going back to integrating these pillars and co-parenting with a narcissist 00:41:28.405 --> 00:41:29.625 or emotionally immature person, 00:41:29.745 --> 00:41:33.485 that it will at least give you more clarity in how you navigate an emotional 00:41:33.485 --> 00:41:38.125 challenge because they help you at least be able to recognize and see the landmines 00:41:38.125 --> 00:41:43.025 that come with dealing with a narcissistic or emotionally immature co-parent because this is. 00:41:43.713 --> 00:41:49.013 By definition, a way to keep conversations from devolving into unproductive arguments. 00:41:49.293 --> 00:41:53.493 Because you'll see as they start to devolve, you will have a better ability 00:41:53.493 --> 00:41:57.173 to step away from that conversation yourself with now the data you need that 00:41:57.173 --> 00:42:01.593 is not, you are crazy, you reacted, the part of that reactive abuse. 00:42:01.973 --> 00:42:07.233 And it really will help you recognize that you are doing what you can to focus on the kids' needs. 00:42:07.353 --> 00:42:10.333 Because when you're really looking at applying this four-pillared framework, 00:42:10.533 --> 00:42:13.993 the primary focused remains on the children's needs rather than getting entangled 00:42:13.993 --> 00:42:18.593 in the emotional drama that typically arises from the co-parent's behavior, 00:42:18.733 --> 00:42:20.853 the narcissistic or emotionally mature co-parent. 00:42:21.153 --> 00:42:24.753 And in a perfect world, and again, I'm saying that this is something that takes 00:42:24.753 --> 00:42:27.513 practice because I have clients that have been doing this for a long time, 00:42:27.633 --> 00:42:28.733 helps you build resilience. 00:42:28.973 --> 00:42:32.493 And this is where that concept of differentiation comes in, of now I'm learning 00:42:32.493 --> 00:42:37.113 that with a framework to continually go back to, then I recognize why certain 00:42:37.113 --> 00:42:40.073 buttons impact me the most. I can take those back to therapy. 00:42:40.153 --> 00:42:41.153 We can talk about those things. 00:42:41.293 --> 00:42:45.613 I can recognize that why does that matter so much when they push a particular 00:42:45.613 --> 00:42:49.893 button and you start to recognize that when you don't respond anymore to a particular 00:42:49.893 --> 00:42:51.273 set of buttons being pushed, 00:42:51.393 --> 00:42:55.753 then if it truly is a case of emotional immaturity or narcissism, 00:42:55.793 --> 00:42:59.593 they will find newer and newer buttons because they need you to respond or else 00:42:59.593 --> 00:43:03.313 they will be hung out to dry from an emotional standpoint. 00:43:03.593 --> 00:43:07.033 So it does, you build resilience, they empower you to manage your interactions 00:43:07.033 --> 00:43:11.053 without being completely overwhelmed by the co-parent's emotional immaturity and then. 00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:15.840 It's actually teaching you a communication tool that you can use outside of 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:17.140 the relationship with the narcissist. 00:43:17.560 --> 00:43:21.200 Because ultimately, the pillars are about facilitating effective communication. 00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:24.720 And that's where they are part of my marriage course, and they're based off 00:43:24.720 --> 00:43:30.880 of very sound evidence-based model of emotionally focused therapy by Sue Johnson 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.420 that has decades now of research behind it. 00:43:33.560 --> 00:43:36.640 So while resolution might not always be possible, especially in these these 00:43:36.640 --> 00:43:37.660 high conflict situations, 00:43:37.940 --> 00:43:43.060 learning a tool and using these strategies will help you maintain a level of 00:43:43.060 --> 00:43:47.540 dialogue that keeps the children's needs at the forefront and allows you to 00:43:47.540 --> 00:43:49.040 go back to whoever it is that you, 00:43:49.220 --> 00:43:52.880 whether it's your attorney, whether it's your new spouse that you need support 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.500 from, whether it is your therapist, your kids eventually, which is what we're 00:43:56.500 --> 00:44:00.020 talking about here in a little bit, that you now have a framework to continually 00:44:00.020 --> 00:44:02.440 go back to to know that you are doing all that you can. 00:44:02.580 --> 00:44:07.200 It provides this thoughtful thoughtful framework for dealing with the complexities, 00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:10.500 the variables of co-parenting with a very challenging partner. 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:14.400 Let me also throw out there that I think this is what's interesting too, 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:18.640 is that while I've used these four pillars to create my magnetic marriage course, 00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:23.740 then I use it in couples therapy to help couples grow closer together to know 00:44:23.740 --> 00:44:25.640 and understand what they didn't know that they didn't know. 00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:30.140 But I go back to this world of narcissism and emotionally immature people and 00:44:30.140 --> 00:44:33.900 having a framework is a way to help keep the partner who's trying to help the 00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:37.580 the relationship or attempting to keep the peace in hopes of lessening the harmful 00:44:37.580 --> 00:44:43.340 impact that the narcissist will have on the kids or the person who's trying to stay sane, 00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.300 that this will help them further recognize the manipulation, 00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:49.240 the gaslighting behavior of the narcissist. 00:44:49.560 --> 00:44:55.560 And I really want people to feel empowered even coming out of one of these types of conversations. 00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:59.220 Because I think so many people that are not listening to this podcast, 00:44:59.300 --> 00:45:03.180 which I totally can understand, or people that are not in the situation are 00:45:03.180 --> 00:45:04.340 going to have their opinion. 00:45:04.540 --> 00:45:07.060 We'll just do this. We'll just stand your ground. Just stand. 00:45:07.641 --> 00:45:11.701 The person that is listening that has been going through this for decades and 00:45:11.701 --> 00:45:15.821 decades of how long they've been trying to make sense of this nonsense, 00:45:16.101 --> 00:45:18.901 then this is still going to be a work in progress. 00:45:19.261 --> 00:45:22.261 Let me go back to pillar one, because that assuming of good intentions, 00:45:22.401 --> 00:45:25.541 while you assume the good intentions, or there's a reason why somebody is doing 00:45:25.541 --> 00:45:29.041 what they're doing, it also helps in recognizing when the other person's actions 00:45:29.041 --> 00:45:33.281 are inconsistent, when they don't consistently align line with their intentions. 00:45:33.661 --> 00:45:38.201 So this starts to illuminate these patterns of manipulative behavior without 00:45:38.201 --> 00:45:41.381 you getting entangled in those patterns. 00:45:41.621 --> 00:45:45.381 So an example, recognizing manipulation from pillar one. 00:45:45.501 --> 00:45:48.961 We will go back to the scenario discussing weekend plans again. 00:45:49.001 --> 00:45:52.361 We got characters Jamie, who is the more emotionally mature partner, 00:45:52.581 --> 00:45:54.421 Taylor, the narcissist. 00:45:54.701 --> 00:45:58.801 So pillar one, assuming good intentions. So example, recognizing manipulation. 00:45:59.041 --> 00:46:03.241 So the situation then would be Taylor, the narcissist, abruptly canceling weekend 00:46:03.241 --> 00:46:07.221 family plans, again, suddenly claiming a need for me time. 00:46:07.821 --> 00:46:11.181 Now, if we're looking at the pure application of pillar one, 00:46:11.541 --> 00:46:16.201 Jamie starts by assuming good intentions, saying, okay, Taylor's not trying 00:46:16.201 --> 00:46:18.161 to hurt me. I can understand you need your space. 00:46:18.341 --> 00:46:20.441 And that is important for everybody. 00:46:20.701 --> 00:46:23.901 Hey, tell me more. Can we talk about how we might balance that with the family time? 00:46:24.061 --> 00:46:26.941 Because where the empowerment comes from is that approach allows allows Jamie 00:46:26.941 --> 00:46:30.701 to acknowledge Taylor's needs, which might just be a Jamie thing of needing 00:46:30.701 --> 00:46:35.241 to know that I am doing the best thing I can do, the right thing to me. 00:46:35.641 --> 00:46:39.741 So acknowledging Taylor's needs while also gently highlighting the impact of 00:46:39.741 --> 00:46:43.041 their decision, making it harder for Taylor to try and manipulate the situation 00:46:43.041 --> 00:46:43.841 without accountability, 00:46:44.101 --> 00:46:48.161 which if Taylor's a really good narcissist, they will still find an amazing 00:46:48.161 --> 00:46:51.161 way to do that. So don't worry about that. 00:46:51.361 --> 00:46:54.161 Pillar two, avoiding avoiding declaring the other person wrong. 00:46:54.501 --> 00:46:58.061 Now on this one, let's look at this as a way to identify gaslighting because 00:46:58.061 --> 00:47:02.501 by not immediately engaging in a conflict over different perspectives or different 00:47:02.501 --> 00:47:06.621 perceptions, then you can just sit back, be a little more calm. 00:47:06.821 --> 00:47:10.701 And this is more of this mindset. I'm observing, I'm identifying the typical 00:47:10.701 --> 00:47:15.161 gaslighting tactics because this approach can help you maintain your sense of 00:47:15.161 --> 00:47:21.041 reality even when someone else is trying to twist what your reality And that 00:47:21.041 --> 00:47:24.281 it becomes an empowering thing that you can do. 00:47:24.421 --> 00:47:28.101 So let's look at what that one looks like. Same characters. Taylor accuses Jamie 00:47:28.101 --> 00:47:30.661 of never supporting their need for personal space. 00:47:31.141 --> 00:47:36.881 That's one where in this scenario, Jamie knows that they absolutely support Taylor. 00:47:37.853 --> 00:47:40.333 So by not saying that's ridiculous or wrong or I don't believe you, 00:47:40.413 --> 00:47:43.593 instead of arguing, Jamie says, oh man, I didn't realize you felt that way. 00:47:43.733 --> 00:47:47.873 Help me understand when you felt unsupported or what does it feel like for you to be supported? 00:47:48.513 --> 00:47:51.893 The position of empowerment comes by not immediately countering the accusation. 00:47:52.313 --> 00:47:55.533 Jamie opens the door to understanding Taylor's perspective, which can reveal, 00:47:55.673 --> 00:47:59.573 and this is the key, in this scenario, because we've already identified the 00:47:59.573 --> 00:48:04.833 narcissism in this particular dynamic, will reveal inconsistencies in Taylor's narrative. 00:48:04.833 --> 00:48:08.113 And that is a common gaslighting tactic. 00:48:08.253 --> 00:48:13.633 That lack of emotional consistency, when you start to see it, it's hard to unsee. 00:48:14.173 --> 00:48:18.833 Pillar three then, if we look at this one, uncovering the hidden motive of if 00:48:18.833 --> 00:48:21.493 you can ask questions before making comments, 00:48:21.693 --> 00:48:25.693 because by asking questions, the partner not only gathers more information, 00:48:25.813 --> 00:48:29.433 but you also encourage the narcissistic or emotionally immature person to reveal 00:48:29.433 --> 00:48:35.173 more of their thought process, which can so highlight inconsistencies or manipulative strategies. 00:48:35.293 --> 00:48:39.013 That pillar three, again, is tell me more. Because let's say that I assume good 00:48:39.013 --> 00:48:41.993 intentions, or I could understand, or not even understand, I'll accept that 00:48:41.993 --> 00:48:44.733 there's a reason why they're acting the way they are. And pillar two, 00:48:44.753 --> 00:48:45.873 I'm not telling them they're wrong. 00:48:46.253 --> 00:48:48.893 That's where moving into pillar three of saying, tell me more, 00:48:48.953 --> 00:48:53.933 help me understand, is that if we're talking about just good old emotional immaturity. 00:48:54.715 --> 00:49:00.195 And I'm not trying to make it sound so dismissive, but it may help you to see 00:49:00.195 --> 00:49:01.595 what their thought process is. 00:49:01.735 --> 00:49:05.195 Because maybe there is more of a, they just don't know what they don't know, 00:49:05.235 --> 00:49:08.155 or I did not know somebody truly looked at it that way. 00:49:08.275 --> 00:49:11.395 But then that would lead to more. Tell me more about that. 00:49:11.595 --> 00:49:15.775 Give me examples of that. Help me understand. And if that person truly is desiring 00:49:15.775 --> 00:49:18.875 to be heard or understood, then that's where their answer gets to be, 00:49:19.015 --> 00:49:21.955 oh man, let me tell you more versus you wouldn't understand anyway. 00:49:22.155 --> 00:49:24.755 And you know what? It's no big deal. Forget about it. Because those are those 00:49:24.755 --> 00:49:28.715 answers that are, they were almost waiting for you to tell them they're wrong 00:49:28.715 --> 00:49:31.995 so they could get into a disagreement or an argument because then they feel 00:49:31.995 --> 00:49:33.515 like, okay, I know what to do with that. 00:49:33.695 --> 00:49:37.435 But this part where I have to try to show myself, the emotionally immature is 00:49:37.435 --> 00:49:38.555 operating from a false self. 00:49:38.795 --> 00:49:43.495 So it is darn near impossible for them to then tap into whatever that really 00:49:43.495 --> 00:49:48.095 means to them because they just need you to get angry so then they can point 00:49:48.095 --> 00:49:51.515 out the flaws in you and let you know all the things you're doing wrong. 00:49:51.515 --> 00:49:53.035 Wrong. Back to Taylor and Jamie. 00:49:53.175 --> 00:49:55.415 So now we've got trying to uncovering hidden motives. 00:49:55.635 --> 00:50:00.095 So situation would be Taylor often makes derogatory remarks about Jamie's friends. 00:50:00.275 --> 00:50:02.175 These are all based on real life examples. 00:50:02.675 --> 00:50:05.655 So in the application, then Jamie's going to say or ask, hey, 00:50:05.675 --> 00:50:09.275 I noticed you seem uncomfortable with my friends. Can you share more about what bothers you about them? 00:50:09.615 --> 00:50:12.255 Because that's going to empower Jamie. Because through questioning, 00:50:12.315 --> 00:50:16.095 Jamie's encouraging Taylor to articulate their feelings, which can reveal the 00:50:16.095 --> 00:50:20.495 underlying motives if they really are there versus just emotional immaturity or narcissism. 00:50:20.595 --> 00:50:27.135 And then finally, my pillar four is something that can help you maintain sanity and boundaries. 00:50:27.315 --> 00:50:30.235 So that pillar four, leaning in, staying present, staying present and engaged 00:50:30.235 --> 00:50:34.335 without falling into a victim mentality, it will allow the partner to maintain 00:50:34.335 --> 00:50:36.295 their sense of self and set healthy boundaries. 00:50:37.455 --> 00:50:41.455 And remembering that a healthy boundary might be, I need to remove myself from 00:50:41.455 --> 00:50:43.175 the situation and I might need to do it quickly. 00:50:43.695 --> 00:50:47.675 But that is a healthy boundary. Even if the other person, it makes them angry career. 00:50:47.895 --> 00:50:51.735 It's a stance that helps you manage interactions without being overwhelmed, 00:50:51.955 --> 00:50:54.075 psychologically overwhelmed, emotionally overwhelmed. 00:50:54.695 --> 00:50:59.175 As an example would be something like Taylor frequently trying to start arguments 00:50:59.175 --> 00:51:01.195 over real small minor issues. 00:51:01.675 --> 00:51:05.255 So then Jamie remaining calm, present, saying, hey, this looks important to 00:51:05.255 --> 00:51:07.975 you. Let's just have a conversation about this so that we can try to understand 00:51:07.975 --> 00:51:09.055 each other's perspective more. 00:51:09.495 --> 00:51:13.295 So by staying engaged, leaning in, not going into a victim mindset and saying 00:51:13.295 --> 00:51:16.055 things like, okay, I guess my opinion and doesn't matter, you know, 00:51:16.055 --> 00:51:19.275 not retreating into a defensive or victim mentality, then Jamie's setting a 00:51:19.275 --> 00:51:20.695 boundary for respectful communication. 00:51:21.055 --> 00:51:24.875 And that will help them maintain their sanity and reduce the effectiveness of 00:51:24.875 --> 00:51:28.635 Taylor's button pushing, which is what Taylor is trying to do in that scenario. 00:51:29.295 --> 00:51:34.175 So in those scenarios, again, these four pillars are used to offer a framework, 00:51:34.335 --> 00:51:39.355 help you navigate the very complex dynamic of interacting with the emotionally 00:51:39.355 --> 00:51:40.695 immature narcissistic individual. 00:51:41.275 --> 00:51:44.335 Back to then by assuming good intentions, or there's a reason why somebody does 00:51:44.335 --> 00:51:48.855 what they do we're avoiding immediate confrontation and and that's gonna eventually 00:51:48.855 --> 00:51:52.195 get us toward asking clarifying questions and staying engaged in a healthy way. 00:51:53.176 --> 00:51:59.196 And so then you can maintain your own clarity, which is so empowering to then 00:51:59.196 --> 00:52:03.776 help you recognize the manipulative patterns and establish boundaries. 00:52:03.916 --> 00:52:07.816 And all of those are so crucial for managing that relationship with the narcissistic 00:52:07.816 --> 00:52:08.836 or emotionally immature partner. 00:52:09.056 --> 00:52:15.836 And I do want to say also that the four pillar framework is here to help all people, 00:52:15.936 --> 00:52:20.356 all couples, all individuals, whatever the situation is, but the pathologically 00:52:20.356 --> 00:52:25.156 kind person that that I understand that that can be such a challenge because 00:52:25.156 --> 00:52:29.636 the pathologically kind person is often, and here's, I think maybe the, 00:52:29.716 --> 00:52:34.576 this is what the previous episode that I talked about went into more detail on. 00:52:34.656 --> 00:52:37.056 So if you haven't heard that, I would highly recommend you go back and listen to that. 00:52:37.296 --> 00:52:41.316 Let me just, again, go back to, we'll just say the kind partner instead of pathologically 00:52:41.316 --> 00:52:45.876 kind, because this is the person that is not the narcissist because they are 00:52:45.876 --> 00:52:49.576 the ones that are seeking out help through books and podcasts and support groups and therapists. 00:52:51.136 --> 00:52:56.276 And narcissistic partner who's less willing to seek help, but then enter the 00:52:56.276 --> 00:53:01.056 world of a kid, regardless of the age, and that kind partner wants to cover 00:53:01.056 --> 00:53:04.756 for or make excuses for the emotionally immature or narcissistic partner. 00:53:04.896 --> 00:53:07.436 Well, again, I'll just go back to calling them the narcissist for simplicity's 00:53:07.436 --> 00:53:09.736 sake and not throw them under the bus. 00:53:10.316 --> 00:53:14.056 So an example might be then if the narcissist forgets to pick the kid up for 00:53:14.056 --> 00:53:17.656 an activity or they're running hours late, that kind parent might say, 00:53:17.756 --> 00:53:20.556 you know, I'm sure mom's just busy. 00:53:20.616 --> 00:53:23.316 She really does care about you, thinking that they're doing the noble thing 00:53:23.316 --> 00:53:26.736 by protecting the child from the actions in this scenario of their mom. 00:53:27.457 --> 00:53:30.717 But if you look at the four pillars, the child is expressing frustration. 00:53:31.237 --> 00:53:35.497 Then when the kind parent tells them that they're sure that mom didn't mean 00:53:35.497 --> 00:53:37.477 it, they're essentially breaking my pillar too. 00:53:37.677 --> 00:53:40.797 They're telling the child that, hey, your feelings are wrong. 00:53:40.997 --> 00:53:42.217 That isn't what's happening. 00:53:42.617 --> 00:53:45.857 Or that the kind parent doesn't believe what the kid is feeling, 00:53:45.937 --> 00:53:48.357 even though the kind parent does not mean that. 00:53:48.657 --> 00:53:53.417 So then the kid will feel unheard and unseen, like their feelings are wrong or don't matter. 00:53:53.837 --> 00:53:57.257 And so by the kind parent using the four pillar framework with their kid, 00:53:57.257 --> 00:53:59.857 they will be allowing them a safe place to feel heard and understood. 00:54:00.157 --> 00:54:04.117 If the child expresses frustration depending on their age and maturity of the 00:54:04.117 --> 00:54:07.677 child, then the kind parent can now not only validate, but they can also express 00:54:07.677 --> 00:54:12.137 that they too maybe have been frustrated when mom hasn't followed through on some of the promises. 00:54:12.457 --> 00:54:16.177 So they aren't throwing mom under the bus, but they are validating the kid's 00:54:16.177 --> 00:54:20.337 feelings and helping them feel like they aren't alone by the dad in this situation 00:54:20.337 --> 00:54:24.697 expressing that he too has felt that way and neither of them are are wrong. 00:54:24.857 --> 00:54:26.357 That's absolutely their experience. 00:54:26.577 --> 00:54:31.417 So then if the mom then wanted to have a conversation with the dad about it 00:54:31.417 --> 00:54:34.377 using the four pillars, it could potentially either be a healing conversation 00:54:34.377 --> 00:54:37.597 or more likely the kind parent, the dad in this situation, 00:54:37.777 --> 00:54:40.777 will see that the narcissist can't sit with the discomfort of the conversation 00:54:40.777 --> 00:54:44.717 and will be unable to keep the four pillar framework and therefore the dad will 00:54:44.717 --> 00:54:47.537 then be able to more maturely assess the situation. 00:54:47.757 --> 00:54:52.557 It really does get into a deeper level of fostering emotional validation and 00:54:52.557 --> 00:54:54.097 understanding, especially for the the child. 00:54:54.217 --> 00:54:58.757 Let me just now break down how the kind parent can utilize each pillar in this context. 00:54:58.977 --> 00:55:00.997 So we'll just go with the assuming of good intentions. 00:55:01.237 --> 00:55:05.297 Application with the kid. When the child expresses frustration about the narcissistic 00:55:05.297 --> 00:55:07.657 parent's actions, whether it's being late or whatever that looks like, 00:55:07.797 --> 00:55:11.537 the kind parent can start by acknowledging the child's feelings without immediately 00:55:11.537 --> 00:55:12.577 defending the other parent. 00:55:12.677 --> 00:55:16.137 This shows respect for the kid's perspective while not necessarily assuming 00:55:16.137 --> 00:55:19.117 negative intentions on the part of the narcissistic parent. 00:55:19.886 --> 00:55:22.906 And then pillar two, avoid declaring the other person wrong. 00:55:23.026 --> 00:55:25.686 So the application with the kid, instead of dismissing the child's feelings 00:55:25.686 --> 00:55:30.026 by saying, you know, your mom didn't mean it, the kind parent can say, 00:55:30.146 --> 00:55:33.446 tell me more about this. Like, I can see that you seem to be upset. 00:55:33.666 --> 00:55:37.206 Tell me more. Tell me what that's like. And when they start to open up that 00:55:37.206 --> 00:55:39.926 it's because mom's always late, then it's, man, it's, I get that. 00:55:39.946 --> 00:55:44.266 It's understandable to feel frustrated when you are so excited to go spend time 00:55:44.266 --> 00:55:48.446 with them or when plans change unexpectedly or when you put off something else 00:55:48.446 --> 00:55:52.786 for to do this and then mom isn't even showing up because that validates the 00:55:52.786 --> 00:55:56.126 child's feelings without making them feel wrong for having those feelings. 00:55:56.686 --> 00:56:00.366 And then asking questions before making comments. The application with the child, 00:56:00.466 --> 00:56:03.466 the kind parent can now ask questions to better understand the child's feelings. 00:56:03.566 --> 00:56:08.506 And this is so critical for starting to teach a kid that their emotions and feelings are okay. 00:56:09.026 --> 00:56:13.746 They need to be able to express them. So for example, how to make you feel when mom was late. 00:56:13.826 --> 00:56:16.086 That encourages the child to express and explore their emotions. 00:56:16.826 --> 00:56:17.966 Fostering a deeper understanding. 00:56:18.406 --> 00:56:22.766 And because if you're talking about mature parents, then if the mom's always 00:56:22.766 --> 00:56:25.246 late, I hope that's something maybe that the mom can work on. 00:56:25.406 --> 00:56:28.846 Or the mom's taking ownership of that. Man, yeah, I need to just plan better 00:56:28.846 --> 00:56:32.106 or let's start going with a later pickup time or whatever that looks like. 00:56:32.246 --> 00:56:35.846 And so that encourages the child, they need to be able to express themselves. 00:56:35.986 --> 00:56:39.166 And I will start talking about this probably every chance I can. 00:56:39.426 --> 00:56:43.006 But if you look at the origin story of the one of the origin stories of the 00:56:43.006 --> 00:56:47.226 what's wrong with me goes back to this, if there's a right way when you're parenting. 00:56:47.226 --> 00:56:48.626 And I'm talking about even a good parent. 00:56:49.314 --> 00:56:51.834 Then that means everything else to the kid is the wrong way. 00:56:51.954 --> 00:56:55.374 So then as they grow up and they're just being and doing and they're expressing 00:56:55.374 --> 00:56:59.474 themselves and if they are continually told or more often than not told, ooh, 00:56:59.654 --> 00:57:03.194 don't say it that way or why didn't you say it this way or you need to go share 00:57:03.194 --> 00:57:06.694 or tell that person you're sorry or it's not a big deal or just calm down or 00:57:06.694 --> 00:57:10.514 not right now or they didn't mean it or what was your part and what role did you play? 00:57:10.614 --> 00:57:13.734 All of those things that the kid starts to feel like, wow, just walking around 00:57:13.734 --> 00:57:16.514 being me, apparently I'm not right, I'm wrong. 00:57:17.394 --> 00:57:21.554 So something must be wrong with me. So now I am going to internalize my emotions 00:57:21.554 --> 00:57:23.674 and I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay. 00:57:24.354 --> 00:57:28.954 And welcome to the world of external validation. Now I need somebody else to tell me that I am okay. 00:57:29.554 --> 00:57:33.974 Applying these principles is going to help you foster that knowledge by your 00:57:33.974 --> 00:57:36.014 kid that their thoughts and feelings are okay. 00:57:36.114 --> 00:57:38.134 And that if I react, that's a me issue. 00:57:38.394 --> 00:57:42.114 And I'm going to teach them, I'm going to model them of what that looks like 00:57:42.114 --> 00:57:45.934 and how to sit with that discomfort and how to have healthy conversations and 00:57:45.934 --> 00:57:47.194 how to support them and what they're doing. 00:57:47.514 --> 00:57:50.534 That leaning in and staying present. that fourth pillar, that in application 00:57:50.534 --> 00:57:53.634 with the child, the kind parent can demonstrate empathy and presence, 00:57:53.874 --> 00:57:57.074 which is so important, by sharing their own feelings in a measured way without 00:57:57.074 --> 00:58:01.994 overwhelming the child or speaking ill of the other parent. I felt let down too. 00:58:02.294 --> 00:58:06.814 So if the narcissistic parent challenges the kind parent, the kind parent can 00:58:06.814 --> 00:58:09.854 employ the four pillars by acknowledging the narcissistic parent's perspective, 00:58:09.974 --> 00:58:13.494 avoiding direct confrontation, asking clarifying questions, maintaining their 00:58:13.494 --> 00:58:14.974 composure and empathy even. 00:58:15.214 --> 00:58:20.234 And that approach is going to allow for, well, in a perfect world, 00:58:20.274 --> 00:58:23.414 a conversation where emotions and perspectives can be expressed more healthily, 00:58:23.454 --> 00:58:25.274 even if resolution isn't possible. 00:58:26.242 --> 00:58:29.822 But by using the framework, the kind parent not only is able to validate and 00:58:29.822 --> 00:58:33.382 support their child, but they model effective emotional communication. 00:58:33.622 --> 00:58:36.602 And that's another big thing too. We most likely weren't modeled it ourselves 00:58:36.602 --> 00:58:39.582 in childhood because people just didn't know, didn't have these tools. 00:58:39.902 --> 00:58:43.182 So this approach helps the child feel heard and understood, and it starts to 00:58:43.182 --> 00:58:46.922 equip them with the same emotional skills to navigate their feelings and relationships. 00:58:47.162 --> 00:58:50.722 And if anybody is still listening right now and they think that sounds ridiculous, 00:58:51.102 --> 00:58:53.962 then then I, man, tell me more about that. 00:58:54.042 --> 00:58:56.702 Because as a marriage therapist doing this on a daily basis, 00:58:56.922 --> 00:58:59.462 having thousands of people I've worked with and couples. 00:59:00.162 --> 00:59:04.222 Then the amount of feedback I get where people are implementing the four pillars 00:59:04.222 --> 00:59:06.802 with their sales teams and a business setting with their kids, 00:59:06.922 --> 00:59:11.302 you name it, that it is an effective, mature way to communicate. 00:59:11.362 --> 00:59:15.722 And we'll start to help the parent, the kind parent validate, 00:59:15.922 --> 00:59:19.742 support the kid, processing their emotions, modeling this effective communication. 00:59:19.742 --> 00:59:23.842 And then the more that you find yourself interacting with the more narcissistic 00:59:23.842 --> 00:59:26.642 parent, this approach, these tools, 00:59:26.882 --> 00:59:31.342 this awareness will help you manage conversations more maturely and assertively 00:59:31.342 --> 00:59:36.462 in a healthy version of that, allowing the kind parent to better be able to 00:59:36.462 --> 00:59:38.382 assess all the variables in the situation, 00:59:38.562 --> 00:59:42.202 which allows them to maintain their own emotional well-being. 00:59:42.202 --> 00:59:46.982 So that becomes just an incredible tool in nurturing healthy environment for 00:59:46.982 --> 00:59:48.902 both the kid and the kind parent. 00:59:49.142 --> 00:59:55.142 And then still, who knows, at some point, it would be amazing if that emotionally 00:59:55.142 --> 00:59:59.342 immature parent at some point starts to say, okay, this whole thing does feel 00:59:59.342 --> 01:00:01.022 different. Maybe I need to take a look at it differently. 01:00:01.102 --> 01:00:05.602 But that's not your job to cause that aha moment or that epiphany. 01:00:05.602 --> 01:00:08.782 Okay, we've been here long enough. It is 2024. 01:00:09.022 --> 01:00:13.402 I wish you the best of a new year. We'll just go ahead and throw that out there. 01:00:13.542 --> 01:00:15.662 New year, new you, cliched, but can be true. 01:00:15.902 --> 01:00:19.622 And if you have thoughts and questions or anything about this episode, 01:00:19.662 --> 01:00:26.902 examples, stories, haikus, you name it, then please send them to info or contact at tonyoverbay.com. 01:00:26.982 --> 01:00:30.702 Have an amazing week, and I will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism. 01:00:30.640 --> 01:00:36.480 Music.