Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 102 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast
and Love ADHD, The Mind, The Mirror, and Me, Murder on the Couch,
and I'm sure more podcasts coming in 2024.
That seemed to be the theme of 2023 was I just, I couldn't stop recording podcasts,
but here we are and welcome to 2024.
I feel like there's a joke here about writing checks. I think that was the part
that people had the most trouble with way back in the day.
And now I asked my kids recently and they do know what checks are.
And I think that one of my daughters saw one one time.
But I'm sure there's still a problem in remembering what year it is,
typing it in the computer.
But thanks to a good old autocorrect, that's maybe that's something that is not as big of a thing.
But I definitely digress because if it's not a big thing, it's probably a pretty
boring thing to talk about. And we might just throw that one on the cutting room floor.
But I want to start with a couple of things today. We're going to talk about parenting.
We're going to talk about co-parenting, because I may have mentioned this on a previous episode,
but I was absolutely shocked to see that the most downloaded and most shared
episode of 2023 was the one about co-parenting with a narcissist or an emotionally
immature partner or co-parent. and I did not know that.
I looked at those download numbers and they're quite a bit more than most of
the other podcast episodes.
I know the amygdala hijack was pretty high up there too as was the one that
talks about confabulation and trauma bonding and then all of the death by a
thousand cuts episodes are.
But I want to go into more detail, more detail than I even did in that episode
because I want to talk about how co-parenting works in emotionally immature
or narcissistic relationships,
and I want to share more of the concepts that I realized at the time were a
little bit, I don't want to say controversial in a very dramatic way,
but that there's not as much content out being able to validate a kid,
but not throw your partner under the bus.
And I want to talk more about why that is important and what that looks like.
So I've got an email that I'm going to read from a parent that is worried about
creating a little narcissist.
And so I do use humor and let them know the point that every kid...
By definition, is a little narcissistic. And I'll share what that looks like.
And then we'll go into some detail about why that goes from,
oh, look how adorable that is, to then if the kid in essence stays that way
through maturity and into adulthood,
now you're dealing with a giant human being that has maybe even financial means,
physical stature, and still can throw a temper tantrum like a child that you may need to parent.
And then yet they also want to be a big boy, a big kid and I do it myself.
And what that can look like of why it's adorable is when they're a kid and why
it's not so much when they're a partner or a parent or somebody in your workplace.
So I'll start today by a, I want to talk about a client and of course their
names have been changed.
Everything about this person has been changed except for the core principles
of what we were talking about. So we're going to call her Sarah.
And I think that by just looking at her from the exterior a testament to external success.
She's happy in her marriage. She has wonderful kids. Her career is doing really well.
But even though she had these external achievements, she would bring into therapy,
she felt like a dark cloud that had lingered with her for over 30 years.
And that was still the divorce of her parents. And as a kid,
she had experienced her parents' divorce as just this sudden immediate thing
that she never really saw coming.
And even though now Now she can look back on that and say, I mean,
I guess now the signs were there and one of her parents is incredibly happy
now, but she said that it just, it uprooted her whole sense of stability.
And I also had Kate Anthony on talking about her book, The D Word,
a couple of weeks ago, and she talks about an author named Christina McGee,
who has a very insightful book called Parenting Apart, How Separated and Divorced
Parents Can Raise Happy and Secure Kids.
She talks about how an overwhelming majority of children in those situations
feel like Like their parents provided little or no information about the separation.
And if right now you're already, yeah, budding me, we're going to talk today
about just communication in general.
So not even necessarily about the separation, but if you have an emotionally
immature partner or two immature partners, one more immature than the other,
that how we end up invalidating our kids by not communicating.
Knowing how to communicate with them, which makes sense because that's often
why we find ourselves in those kinds of relationships to begin with.
And so this is more of those tools that I just want people to know that you
may not know even what you don't know.
But back to what Christina McGee said, she said, again, an overwhelming majority
of children in these situations feel their parents provided little to no information
about their separation.
And this was absolutely true for Sarah because she felt like this lack of clarity
and open discussion left her just with a whole confusing mix of emotions.
She had confusion and fear and this sense of just unseen anger.
And that's some of the things that we're talking about now that is really powerful
and helpful, but it's because she was unable to be acknowledged or seen or heard
or able to express her emotions or opinions at all when she was young.
So not only did she feel like she got blindsided by what was happening in her
parents' relationship, but even more so, So it was the point where she was being
invalidated about her own feelings.
And I want to show a little bit of that tie today of how that can then leave
the kid feeling like something's wrong with me.
It's my fault, which can often lead them into future caretaking relationships,
which is, I think, one of the things that I hope that we can all agree on,
that we want to help our kids grow to be their own secure, attached,
calm, confident, interdependent, differentiated individuals who then will not
put up with the garbage of an emotionally immature, manipulative person.
So in our sessions, Sarah would talk about how she always just had this quiet,
nagging thought that somehow she was responsible for her parents' split.
She'd gone to a couple of coaches who had told her, hey, here's the way you
change that thought process.
And so she had identified with some of the podcasts I've done.
And she said, okay, I can't just magically change my thoughts or my mind.
This still kept bubbling up.
So then we started talking about it's normal for her to feel that way, first of all.
And it isn't just a matter of, well, look at it this other way.
Because as a child, her world was naturally self-centered, which is a normal developmental stage.
Kids often believe that they are the axis around which their parents' lives rotate.
And this is a very normal belief. But then if you compound that with silence
and mystery surrounding a divorce or a separation,
or even just parents starting to just detach from one another and then not even
recognizing the impact that it has on the kids, but those are the things that
led her to feel like she played some sort of role in the breakdown of her family.
And she started overthinking then even her role as a parent today,
even though it seemed like everything was going pretty well.
So she would continually think, man, maybe there was something that I could
have done to prevent it. And what if I'm repeating that process now with my own kids?
So then here we are, decades later, even as an accomplished adult,
this feeling stayed with her. And it was this subtle, but definitely a pervasive guilt.
And it would just cast this shadow sometimes over her, even her happiest moments.
And I want you to know her case is not unique at all.
I would imagine there are even people that are listening today that would identify
with it because a lot of adults who experienced their parents' divorce as kids
carry this just background noise or low-key burden of responsibility.
So then through a lot of really good productive therapy sessions,
we worked on unpacking these deep-seated feelings and acknowledging them and
accepting them and there's nothing wrong with her.
She's just being and doing and we explored the importance of understanding that
as a kid, that she wasn't responsible for her parents' decisions.
And we also talked about how, what that looked like to be able to validate your
kids' experiences and feelings and let them have their emotions,
even if it made us feel uncomfortable as parents.
And so I had even dug back into the author McGee's insights,
recognizing the developmental truths about children's self-centered perspectives
and how those can absolutely lead to these misconceptions of the role that we
play as kids in our parents' lives.
So she did eventually learn how to reframe her whole narrative and she started
to see her childhood experience through a far more compassionate lens, a lot of grace.
And that helped in alleviating the guilt and having some acceptance that those
were the the way she felt and that was the way that it was handled by her parents
and understanding that that was a result of their issues and it was entirely
unrelated to her as a kid.
So now she's got things figured out and I
can truly say that she's living much more happily ever after but I think there's
so much there and working with somebody like Sarah and then looking at the way
that we work whenever we're either it's co-parenting with a narcissistic co-parent
or even just two different approaches to parenting within a relationship or during a separation,
but it's more about how to communicate with your kids,
even if your spouse, your partner is not on board because the pathologically
kind person is going to continue to try and buffer or run interference for the kids.
And it could be to the detriment of validating the kid's feelings or how they're
actually feeling about the situation.
So I want to help with those tools of how to be more present and have a good
way to acknowledge that your kids are absolutely okay to have feelings,
thoughts, and emotions.
And you can validate them without feeling like you're throwing your partner under the bus.
Okay, so hopefully that gives you an idea of one of the directions that we'll be going today.
Now let me read a modified email for anonymity that came in very,
very recently that had me thinking a lot about this over basically over the
New Year break and led to writing this episode.
So the subject was navigating parenting challenges with a difficult partner
and worry about creating a little narcissist.
So the person says, Dear Tony, I'm a regular listener of your podcast,
having stumbled upon it recently after watching you and your daughter do a live
video on relationships on TikTok of all places.
And it's been a revelation for me. My journey of self-discovery led me to recognize
that I'm in a relationship with somebody exhibiting narcissistic traits and tendencies.
I am definitely one of those who you would call pathologically kind and HSP
or whatever else comes with all of that I'm just now starting to learn the dynamics
in our family we have three kids our oldest is a boy age 11 than a seven-year-old
boy and a five-year-old girl and.
The girl is the one who really highlights my partner's emotional immaturity.
And I'm concerned about the long-term effects on all of them.
But let me lay out the scene.
I see my older son leaning towards people-pleasing, a trait that I'm too familiar
with and I'm learning to navigate again myself, as well as my middle son,
but in a really, really passive way.
And then my younger daughter's self-esteem is my biggest worry.
She's often told to suppress her feelings, leading to her seeking comfort from me.
I used to cover for my husband's behavior, but now realize that's not helpful.
Again, thank you for your podcast.
So I focus on validating her feelings and guiding her toward healthier expression.
But I feel like I'm at a crossroads wondering if my approach might inadvertently
be fostering narcissistic tendencies, especially in my daughter.
My husband claims that her behavior changes whenever I come around,
but I feel like this might be in an attempt to manipulate the situation either
for him, but I also feel like she feels safe whenever I'm around.
I'm torn between comforting my daughter and not wanting to over-coddle her,
aiming to avoid raising another generation burdened by these same challenges.
I would greatly appreciate any insights or advice, particularly on maintaining
a healthy emotional environment for my kids in this complex situation.
Thanks for your invaluable guidance and any recommendations on episodes related
to parenting with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner,
in addition to the ones that you've already done, would be a bonus.
Sincerely, in their name. So I thought, why not create a new episode and talk more about this?
Let me just start by diving into just the, I mean, it's very intriguing,
but it's so fundamental about human nature, especially in the context of co-parenting
with a narcissist or an emotionally immature individual.
And it's that concept that I make lightheartedly, but it's that every kid could
in essence be seen as a little narcissist.
So, I really do say this with a light heart and a smile because at their core,
not only are children adorable, but they are naturally what's called egocentric.
They primarily view the world through their own lens. And it's not a fault,
it's just how they're wired.
They don't often consider what somebody else might be experiencing because their
developmental stage focuses on their own needs and perceptions.
And without going all the way back into the abandonment attachment speech from
the womb, if you really just think about it from the moment that a baby enters
the world, their main mission though is to get their needs met.
They cry, what happens? Parents rush in to feed them, change them,
comfort them. This is a survival instinct.
So then babies and young kids don't have the capacity to meet their own needs.
They're too squishy and small.
They rely on their expressions, whether it's crying, demanding,
even manipulating in their innocent way, batting those little eyes or just being
adorable and cute, to ensure that somebody notices and responds.
And this all stems from that deep-seated attachment and abandonment framework.
We're all born with this innate programming to ensure our survival.
It makes sense when you look at it that way.
So as we grow, we learn different methods of expressing ourselves to get our needs met.
And this can manifest in a ton of different forms, asking very politely,
or demanding, or withdrawing, or even manipulating.
And it's all part of our human developmental journey.
So why is this important when talking about co-parenting with somebody who is
narcissistic or emotionally immature?
I think it's crucial because understanding this natural self-centered phase
of childhood helps us distinguish between normal,
and I'm going to use that word loosely, but normal developmental behavior and
then the more, we'll call them concerning patterns that we might see in a narcissistic adult.
Because an emotionally immature parent might not have fully transitioned from
this phase of prioritizing their own needs,
often at the expense of others, including their And I think that concept is
where it really starts to make sense that they may not have transitioned from
that phase in childhood because it wasn't modeled.
They didn't see that happening with their own parents.
They didn't have a secure attachment. So they really did feel like it's every
man, woman or child for themselves.
So as we kind of look further into this today, I would love to just keep in
the back of your mind this fundamental aspect of human development and how it
shapes our interactions, both as kids and as adults, and how if this has been
what has been going on since birth,
straight from the birth canal on to now some mid-40s, a year old adult,
hopefully you can see that it's been happening for a long time.
It is just the way that this person thinks or feels or is.
So if you are even trying to figure this out, then you are so much further along
on this path of awakening or discovery.
And I'm not saying that you need to now go flaunt that, but I'm going to say, man, I see you.
And this is how we change the whole world, one person at a time,
you and then to your kids.
So that's why I love talking about this stuff. It is a fascinating journey of understanding.
And it makes me so happy when somebody like the listeners are here and they
want to explore it as well.
When we talk about this concept of this emotionally immature parent might not
have fully transitioned from the phase of prioritizing their own needs,
often at the expense of others, then I want to talk about what the healthy version of that looks like.
Self-care is not selfish, but as adults, we often feel that we have to put our
needs and wants second to everybody else.
I think it's important to suss that out a little bit. And this is where if somebody
is just all in their yeah buts trying to prove me wrong or just they want to
be heard, which is no problem.
I'm not saying that I am right, but I'm presenting data data and it might be
a little bit uncomfortable. And so that is an opportunity for you to differentiate and grow.
And part of that differentiation process might be, yeah, I think this guy's
a nut job. And if that's the case, no worries.
So then it would be your opportunity to then continue to seek some person,
some way, something that you identify more with or something that you feel like
you can take action on. Maybe that's a better way to put it.
So the distinction between something like healthy self-care and then emotionally
immature selfishness, it's a critical aspect of emotional intelligence and personal development.
Let me talk about healthy self-care and I'm going to look at this,
we'll call this emotionally mature selfishness, I guess in a way.
Let's take some definitions or examples. So healthy self-care,
it would involve recognizing and tending to your own needs in a way that does
not harm or unduly neglect the needs of others.
So as an example, taking time for oneself to exercise or meditate or engage
in a hobby are examples of healthy self-care. It's about balance.
It's about ensuring that you You are mentally and physically and emotionally
fit to be present and supportive in your relationships.
So that it isn't something where you are continually taking on this victim mentality
or feeling like I have to take care of everybody else first,
even to my own detriment, because then I find myself complaining or doing the
woe is me story so that everybody else in my mind still thinks that,
oh, they will now recognize me and help me and want to continue to be with me and take care of me.
But that goes back to that childhood stuff that we were talking about earlier
is that it's in our core, our DNA, the way that we show up to make sure that we get our needs met.
But we are starting to transition to meeting our own needs so that we can show
up more emotionally consistent and mature in our relationships.
When you practice healthy self-care, it has a positive ripple effect on your
relationships. And this is definitely something that people don't know that
they don't know because when you are doing that, you are showing up more patient
and understanding and empathetic because your own cup is full.
So then it's a little bit easier to give to others without feeling depleted
or resentful, even if you feel like you have a desire or need to give.
I mean, I like to often say it's more about having these shared experiences
and being there to help guide those who are close to you, having more of an
influence, but not trying to exert any type of control.
Control and what is one of the strangest and
most difficult things as a recovering emotionally immature human being
is that when you start to practice healthy self-care and
you show up and you are just being and doing that it's so hard not to even want
to comment on your own self-care because we're still so used to or wired to
getting validation from others that we even want validation on the stuff that's
helping us move away from needing validation which is part part of when you
know that, okay, maybe this is starting to click.
It also is this part of the developmental aspect of becoming an adult.
Because as an adult, it's crucial to recognize that caring for ourselves is
not a selfish act. It's a necessary one.
And it involves setting boundaries, which remember, a boundary is a you thing.
And we often get boundaries confused with ultimatums. If I'm telling somebody,
you better not ever do that again, that's an ultimatum.
A boundary is, if you do that, then I will exit.
And that can be done in a much more calm way. It doesn't mean that the person
that you are setting the boundary with or from is going to say,
oh my gosh, you finally set boundaries. I'm so impressed.
Oh, typically they're going to, especially if they're immature,
they're going to find themselves testing the boundary, pushing the boundary.
So setting those boundaries, saying no when needed, and making time for our
own well-being is really, really difficult until it becomes easier.
And I think that's probably the most simplistic way to say it, but it's true.
And from just a pure psychological perspective, healthy self-care is linked
to concepts like self-compassion and resilience.
And it's about acknowledging your own needs while maintaining empathy and consideration for others.
Now, let's take a look at what this means, the selfishness from an emotionally
immature standpoint. standpoint.
So that emotionally immature selfishness is characterized more by prioritizing
one's own needs and desires in a way that disregards or harms others.
So what does that look like? You can continually choose activities that suit
only yourself, ignoring the needs and feelings of family members or partners,
or failing to contribute fairly and maybe shared family responsibilities.
And also a lack of emotional consistency, planning to do something but saying,
yeah, I'll do it to get you out of that discomfort in the moment or even to
get the validation in the the moment, but then the weekend rolls around.
It's like, I'm not doing that.
I'm too tired. And then wait, what do you want from me?
And here comes the gaslighting. And so those around you are going to feel like,
goes back to that, they never know which version of you they're going to get.
And then they're starting to tiptoe and walk around eggshells.
That form of selfishness then leads so often, as you can see,
to conflict, resentment, a breakdown in relationships, because it lacks the
balance and empathy found in healthy self-care.
And it can lead to a cycle where selfish individuals' needs are met at the expense
of others, where they eventually are going to wear those down around them to
where those people finally say, sure, fine.
And then the person who is immature says, okay, good. And you would have, are we cool?
No, we're not cool. But nobody feels like they can say anything anymore.
And if we go back to that developmental aspect, this aligns with the earlier
point about individuals who struggle to transition from the natural self-centered
stage of early childhood into a more balanced, empathetic adult state.
And then from a psychological perspective, psychologists might see this as a
failure in developing certain emotional and social skills, such as empathy,
reciprocity, or the ability to balance your needs with the needs of others.
But I think this is so much of a we don't know what we don't know that we feel
like we're doing something wrong if we're engaging in self-care.
And self-care does not just mean getting a pedicure and going on a run.
It can be just starting to allow yourself to think and feel and dream and just
start to picture what something else could look like in your life.
That may be all that some people can do, especially those people that feel like
they're in emotionally immature or narcissistic relationships.
And also, the more that we get research on narcissism, emotional immaturity,
then that highlights the detrimental impact of failing to develop beyond a self-centered worldview.
Of failing to admit that there are things that we may not know because that's
a powerful feeling to then show up into the world or any situation with curiosity,
of course, knowing that there there are things that we don't know that we don't know.
One of my daughters had shared a video that she saw with me and she said,
dad, what's your take on this?
And it was somebody that was saying that to the incredibly intelligent that
therapy is something that is not helpful because they already know all the things
that therapist is going to say.
And I felt like all I need to do is pause and say, well, as you're saying that one out loud,
there's somebody that they're literally having to go out and tell the world
that they are so smart that they don't need therapy because because they already
know all the things that therapists will say, even though they have no idea what I'm going to say.
So the emotional immaturity or arrogance in that alone is going to ensure that
they are only going to have to do the things that they want to do,
because they already know what the other things are going to bring them,
which is going to be nothing.
So that person's already got life all figured out, and probably not a lot of
fun at parties, in my personal opinion.
So that difference, though, lies in balance and empathy, because Because healthy
self-care is about maintaining your own well-being in a way that also respects
and considers the well-being of others.
And then that emotionally immature selfishness overlooks the balance,
focuses on the self to the detriment of other people.
And that is a critical distinction, especially in the context of,
let's go back to like co-parenting and personal relationships.
So let me give you a very quick example of what that would look like to illustrate these concepts.
Let's say planning a weekend getaway. And we have the characters in our play
or our situation will be Jordan, who is a working parent in a relationship with Alex.
So narrative one, healthy self-care. We're talking about emotionally mature selfishness.
So in this situation, Jordan had a stressful week at work and feels the need
for some personal time during the weekend.
And so then the action they take, they communicate.
Here's the key. They communicate that need to their partner,
Alex, explaining, I've had a tough week. I really need to feel like I have some time to recharge.
So I'm thinking about spending Saturday morning doing something just for me,
maybe like a good old long bike ride.
So the balance, Jordan's also acknowledging the family's needs saying,
but hey, let's make sure we have quality family time later Saturday.
Or do you have anything planned? Do you already have something in mind?
And if not, then yeah, let's for sure plan on something fun together.
Assuming though that that time that I want to take is available.
And now come, Jordan enjoys the bike ride, feels refreshed, energized.
And then later that afternoon and then on Sunday, they have an amazing family
day out and Jordan is fully engaged and present.
So now let's go back and look at that narrative from an emotionally immature
or selfish perspective.
Situation, the same stressful week for Jordan, but instead of communicating
effectively, Jordan decides without discussion to take the entire weekend for
personal activities and ignoring already made plans with Alex and the whole family.
So the behavior, when Alex brings up the issue, too, which Alex does very sheepishly,
brings out the eggshells and drops them on the ground and says,
man, I think I'm going to be walking on these.
And Jordan gets very defensive. Hey, look, I had a hard week and I need some
time for myself. I'm going to lose my mind. I feel like if anybody you should understand that.
So at that point, then Alex feels disregarded, feels frustrated.
The kids are disappointed and the tension in the household is at an all-time high.
And therefore, four, Jordan's actions now create this whole imbalance in the
family dynamic and people feeling a sense of neglect.
And what does that lead to is, sure, there are going to be things that are going
to happen, things that are going to come up over time, but the discomfort for
Jordan to work through, in my opinion, would be following through on family commitments.
And then what gets so layered and deep in a wonderful, amazing way that if Jordan
makes commitments during the week before Jordan feels overwhelmed by the week,
then that needs to be the area that Jordan can start to self-confront and grow.
Oh, well, when I'm saying it, I mean it in that moment, but then later I don't
because then the rest of the week plays out and I get overwhelmed.
So I need to either have the courage to say, you know what, right now I feel
like I could do that, but can we just check back midweek and let's see.
So that's where every opportunity or every interaction Action truly does become
an opportunity to self-confront and grow.
And what I next want to talk about is something I don't think I've talked about
in a long time on the podcast.
And that is, it's these concepts of, I mentioned earlier, egocentronic and egodistronic.
And so here's your nerdy psychology lesson for the day. Because these are pretty
relevant in understanding behavior of children and particularly in the context
of whether we're talking about co-parenting within the household or with a narcissistic
or emotionally immature person after divorce or separation.
So, egocentronic, it refers to thoughts and behaviors and values that are in
harmony with or they're acceptable to the needs and goals of the ego or they're
consistent with your ideal self-image.
I mean, in simpler terms, if we're talking about ego-syntonic,
these are behaviors or feelings that align with a person's sense of self.
So if you're looking at kids and children, especially little kids,
many behaviors are ego-syntonic because they naturally align with their immediate desires and needs.
Because kids are inherently focused on their own experiences and needs,
and this is the stage I refer to as little tiny narcissists.
So for them, demanding attention, expressing needs without considering others
being the center of their own universe is perfectly aligned with their sense
of self. It kind of feels right and justified.
So I say if the little kid wasn't doing that, that actually might be a problem
because that means that they aren't even allowed to explore or express themselves as a little kid.
So their behavior would be perfectly aligned with their sense of self.
It would be egocentronic.
Now look at egodistonic. So those behaviors, on the other hand,
are those that are in conflict or dissonant. the ego dystonic dissonant to the
ego or inconsistent with their ideal self-image.
So these are thoughts, behaviors that a person finds uncomfortable or distressing
or inconsistent with their self-perception.
So if we look at that with kids, kids might exhibit ego dystonic behavior when
they're forced to act in ways that don't align with their natural self-focused behavior.
A real simple version of this, which is kind of funny when you look at it,
is sharing toys against their will or following rules that they don't understand
or agree with or being compelled held to consider others' feelings when they
aren't developmentally ready, that can be ego-dystonic for them.
When we say, no, you have to share, I mean, if the little kid is seriously like,
I have no idea what you're talking about, old man, because this is my doll and
that little kid over there took it. I mean, to them, it's like, this is insane.
We should be all grabbing pitchforks and why aren't you defending me?
When you apply these concepts to co-parenting with a narcissist or emotionally
immature person, so if you're really taking a look at child behavior,
recognizing that children are naturally egocentronic with self-focused behavior,
it will help you understand a little bit why they act the way they do.
Because it's not out of malice or deliberate selfishness at the developmental stage.
Now, distinguishing that from adult narcissism, now we're talking.
Because adult narcissism or emotional immaturity in a co-parent might be egocentronic
when it involves self-centered behavior.
Because again, they don't understand what the big fuss is, they're just doing what's best for them.
Unlike children, however, adults have developed, or the hope is that they've
developed the capacity to understand and consider others' needs.
So I hope you can start to see why I think this stuff is so important to know.
Now, one of the difficulties, we'll probably talk about this later,
is that now that you know, you're going to want to go tell the person,
and that can be not so helpful.
But persistent egocentronic narcissism in
adults is problematic because it disregards this developmental ability
for them to become more emotionally
mature so they are still acting as a little child acting egocentronic thinking
that they're doing things that match or align with their own sense of self or
ego that well they're doing it they're telling you yes right now because they
mean yes right now and they're going to tell you no later because they mean
no later and that has nothing to do with you.
Then when co-parenting with a narcissistic or emotionally immature partner,
understanding these concepts of ego-syntonic or ego-dystonic,
it helps in distinguishing between typical child behavior and then potentially
harmful behavior of an adult.
Because it also then kind of underscores the importance of fostering a healthy
development in children.
Guiding them, which is the key, gently, which is also key, from a naturally
self-centered stage to a more balanced and empathetic understanding of others.
So these behaviors, the notions of egocentronic and egodistonic behaviors,
they start to provide a framework for understanding the normal self-centeredness
of children, where every little kid's a narcissist,
and distinguishing it from the problematic self-centeredness of a narcissistic
or emotionally immature adult.
And I think that understanding, whether it's for you you or you in being in
a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature or navigating the complexities
of co-parenting in those situations, then I think it can help so much.
And so next, we're going to talk about now that you have this data,
this information, how do you communicate or is there a way to communicate more effectively?
And I'll give you the little heads up if you're thinking, okay,
so now how do we get on the same page? Oh, bless your heart. Like that's adorable.
But we're going to give you tools on how you show up different next.
I believe this is where my beloved four pillars of a connected conversation come into play.
I can share some links in the show notes of where you can go to find out more about those.
And they are a huge part of my magnetic marriage course, which is the revamped
version is coming out soon.
So just get on the mailing list. That would be the plug there.
I'm going to go through what those are, the four pillars, and especially with
regard to having it be a framework or more of a structured approach for a meaningful
conversation in a relationship with somebody who is more emotionally immature.
And by meaningful, I guess I'm saying that this will at least give you a sense
of sanity or help you feel more empowered when you start to think that the conversation
is going out into the rails.
And I realize as I am coming back to record after editing the episode that that
is not something that you are aware of.
I could have just slid this right in and made it seem like it was
just seamless and part of the initial recording but I
guess I do want validation and I want this to be very dramatic so if I was going
to do it at any time I would cue some very intense music right now but I'm about
to go on a pretty lengthy jag about my four pillars and doing so in a lot of
different contexts around the emotionally immature.
And I think that it is very important to note that I noticed as I was doing
the editing that I'm sounding like here is a way to fix the relationship with
your emotionally immature partner, or here is the keys to communicating with
your emotionally immature partner.
And I want you to know that that is not the case. If that happens, that would be amazing.
And that's why I do stand so strong on my four pillars of a connected conversation,
Because I've used those in 1500 plus couples situations as a couples therapist
now over the last 15 plus years, there are a lot of new listeners to Waking Up to Narcissism.
And I feel like this wouldn't be a bad idea to just do a quick check in and say,
one of the main premises behind starting this entire podcast was in communicating
that working with the population of people who are finding themselves in the
relationships with the emotionally immature or narcissistic person in their life,
that when they start identifying with or reading or just feeling like,
okay, this narcissism thing,
there's something there, that then most everything you read says,
all right, right now, just cut off all conversation, communication,
go no contact and run for the hills.
But I know that that is not the way it actually works as a real couples therapist
who is working with real human beings, especially people who don't know what they don't know.
And typically people that are the pathologically kind finding themselves in
the relationship with the emotionally mature narcissist, as my friend Ross Rosenberg
calls it, that human magnet syndrome.
When people are starting to wake up to that, hence the name of the entire podcast,
that they start feeling like, wait a minute, am I? Am I the narcissist?
Or I don't even know what this means. And this can't be what I'm in because
I've been in this marriage for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years. So it can't be that.
So then people do continue, even if they do the five things that I recommend,
raising their emotional baseline, self-care, getting their PhD in gaslighting,
getting out of of unproductive conversations, setting healthy boundaries and
knowing that the boundary is going to be the challenge to the emotionally immature narcissist.
And that last one that I cannot give this other person the aha moment or the
epiphany that that has to come from them, that I still watch people do that
over and over and over again, trying to now with this new data, this new information,
now I can present this to the person that I am being told might be emotionally
immature, Sure, might even be narcissistic, but I don't think that's the case.
Let me just explain it to them this way.
And then it doesn't work. And they continually do that over and over again.
So with all of that said, this is with that acceptance that most people are
still trying to figure out how emotionally immature is my partner?
How emotionally immature am I?
And still going back to this narrative that they want to tell themselves,
maybe I am the narcissist, but I immediately say, you're not if you're the one
that's questioning it because you are here trying to figure this out, doing the work.
Yes, we can all start from a place that we are all emotionally immature,
but if you are trying to find the tools, it's natural to yeah,
but them, or I do that too, but you're here and you're trying to implement new tools.
So the four pillars of a connected conversation that I'm about to go into great
detail on, It is a framework and I love frameworks to operate from as I'm about
to go on and on about in this next probably 10 or 15 minutes that you will see.
But I really feel like that is the case where it is a tool to use for your own
sanity or as you are still trying to rule out how emotionally immature is my
partner and in is my relationship.
Relationship so now back to
the regularly scheduled podcast we're going
to attack the four pillars from a few different angles first we're going
to talk about how they would help if you are in
the challenging dynamic of co-parenting or even just
trying to communicate with a narcissistic or an emotionally immature partner so
my pillar one is assuming good intentions or in this
scenario or there's a reason why somebody shows up or acts
the way that they do in the we just
don't know what we don't know emotionally both of
us on our way to emotional maturity version this one
stops at assuming good intentions that there's no one
wakes up in the morning thinks how can i hurt my partner but in the emotional immature
world then when somebody is lashing out or saying very mean or degrading things
i know that we can't assume they they mean well assuming good intentions but
no there's a part b to this pillar one which is that there's a reason why somebody
is is acting the way that they are and quite frankly it might be because Because
of what we've already covered today, whether it's their ego,
syntonic sense of self and feeling like, well, this is the way that I have to
behave in order to get my needs met like a child.
Or other reasons as well. So pillar one, assuming good intentions,
the application and co-parenting.
So when you are interacting with a narcissistic or an emotionally immature co-parent,
it's beneficial to start from a position of just having a framework to operate from.
And if that does require an assuming of good intentions, or there is a reason
why this person is interacting with me the way that they are,
that does not mean we're ignoring the problematic behavior,
but we're approaching the conversation with the belief that at some level,
that the other parent doesn't necessarily have a deliberate intent to harm,
but they may be showing up as an incredibly emotionally immature human being.
And this mindset can help keep the discussion more civilized,
even if it's for just you from a differentiated standpoint,
and focused on the child's well-being rather than personal grievances that so
often get in the way because the emotionally immature person is going to continue
to try to push buttons to get you to react.
So even if this needs to be just a you thing, then it is a framework that you can operate from.
So that pillar two, and you can start to see where these will be very important
because just to have a framework to return to, because the second one,
it can be equally as difficult.
Avoid declaring the other person is wrong, or I don't believe them,
even if I think they're wrong and I don't believe them.
So that application in co-parenting is, it can be particularly challenging with the narcissist.
And let me just, from moving forward, I'll just say with a narcissist,
but that means narcissistic or emotionally immature person.
And I'm just saying that for the sake of word count or trying to not have a
mouthful of words every time.
Pillar two, again, challenging with the narcissist because they will often present
what will absolutely to you feel like a distorted perspective.
It's a very fancy way of saying, I don't believe them.
But hang with me here because if you refrain from just outright dismissing their
views, even when you think they're wrong, you keep the line of communication open.
And you start to recognize that this truly can be an opportunity for you to
self-confront, sit with discomfort, grow.
And this approach does help manage the conversation without escalating into conflict on your end.
And if there were going to be a way to find a common ground for the kid's sake,
then it's going to come from you being able to stay present.
And by staying present doesn't even mean that I have to stay engaged in the
conversation, But you being able to to be able to stay present within your own self,
sense of self, your own body, even if it comes at the cost of setting a boundary
of if they start to get really emotionally abusive or very loud or start gaslighting,
then that's where the boundary is.
Then I will leave, which then leads to pillar three, asking questions before making comments.
Again, application and co-parenting, it's a crucial part of understanding the
co-parent's perspective, no matter how skewed it might seem,
asking questions like, hey, can you explain more about your concerns?
Or tell me more about that? Or why is that something that's important to you?
Or how do you see that impacting our kid?
And that'll start to give you more insight into their thought process.
Because I'm saying this as if you're going to have this moment where they're
going to say, man, that's a great point.
Because if you're at this point where you're this far into this podcast listening
to this about co-parenting with a narcissist feeling like you need some new
tools, then quite frankly saying, well, can you tell me more about that?
Or what's that look like for you?
Then you may be met with some of the greatest hits such as, really?
You don't know? Oh, boy. Okay, well, there's a newsflash. You finally don't
know something or whatever the button is that's going to be attempted to be
pushed to get you to respond. Right.
And that's why, again, I'll go back to having a framework can be so empowering
because you watch the other person, the more emotionally immature or special
person who can't stay in the sandbox.
They can't work within this framework because it might make them more accountable
or have to sit with the discomfort that they're used to getting rid of by making
you lose your stuff in the process.
Process so it this will in theory give
you more insight into their thought process and can guide your responses
in a more informed or potentially empathetic manner
or allow you to know it is time for
me to to follow through on my boundary and
i may need to exit the conversation and then pillar four is the
lean in and stay present and that application and co-parenting of
staying engaged and present can be really difficult but essential
because it demonstrates your commitment to the well-being of your kid so then
it can lead to the staying present or
not going into a victim mentality of just when they
push the right button saying okay fine you do whatever the heck you want like
you always have versus the okay you know what i need to leave this conversation
now and avoiding that victim mindset especially when the narcissist is pushing
buttons is absolutely a key to maintaining what any semblance of a constructive
stance because then it's about standing firm in your perspective.
And sure, you're open to dialogue, but at this point, it's pretty clear that
they are not looking to have a shared connected conversation.
Four pillars can come into play with the co-parenting part of just how do you
show up in that conversation.
And I think it's important to note as well that just that whole application of having a framework,
and I keep going back to integrating these pillars and co-parenting with a narcissist
or emotionally immature person,
that it will at least give you more clarity in how you navigate an emotional
challenge because they help you at least be able to recognize and see the landmines
that come with dealing with a narcissistic or emotionally immature co-parent because this is.
By definition, a way to keep conversations from devolving into unproductive arguments.
Because you'll see as they start to devolve, you will have a better ability
to step away from that conversation yourself with now the data you need that
is not, you are crazy, you reacted, the part of that reactive abuse.
And it really will help you recognize that you are doing what you can to focus on the kids' needs.
Because when you're really looking at applying this four-pillared framework,
the primary focused remains on the children's needs rather than getting entangled
in the emotional drama that typically arises from the co-parent's behavior,
the narcissistic or emotionally mature co-parent.
And in a perfect world, and again, I'm saying that this is something that takes
practice because I have clients that have been doing this for a long time,
helps you build resilience.
And this is where that concept of differentiation comes in, of now I'm learning
that with a framework to continually go back to, then I recognize why certain
buttons impact me the most. I can take those back to therapy.
We can talk about those things.
I can recognize that why does that matter so much when they push a particular
button and you start to recognize that when you don't respond anymore to a particular
set of buttons being pushed,
then if it truly is a case of emotional immaturity or narcissism,
they will find newer and newer buttons because they need you to respond or else
they will be hung out to dry from an emotional standpoint.
So it does, you build resilience, they empower you to manage your interactions
without being completely overwhelmed by the co-parent's emotional immaturity and then.
It's actually teaching you a communication tool that you can use outside of
the relationship with the narcissist.
Because ultimately, the pillars are about facilitating effective communication.
And that's where they are part of my marriage course, and they're based off
of very sound evidence-based model of emotionally focused therapy by Sue Johnson
that has decades now of research behind it.
So while resolution might not always be possible, especially in these these
high conflict situations,
learning a tool and using these strategies will help you maintain a level of
dialogue that keeps the children's needs at the forefront and allows you to
go back to whoever it is that you,
whether it's your attorney, whether it's your new spouse that you need support
from, whether it is your therapist, your kids eventually, which is what we're
talking about here in a little bit, that you now have a framework to continually
go back to to know that you are doing all that you can.
It provides this thoughtful thoughtful framework for dealing with the complexities,
the variables of co-parenting with a very challenging partner.
Let me also throw out there that I think this is what's interesting too,
is that while I've used these four pillars to create my magnetic marriage course,
then I use it in couples therapy to help couples grow closer together to know
and understand what they didn't know that they didn't know.
But I go back to this world of narcissism and emotionally immature people and
having a framework is a way to help keep the partner who's trying to help the
the relationship or attempting to keep the peace in hopes of lessening the harmful
impact that the narcissist will have on the kids or the person who's trying to stay sane,
that this will help them further recognize the manipulation,
the gaslighting behavior of the narcissist.
And I really want people to feel empowered even coming out of one of these types of conversations.
Because I think so many people that are not listening to this podcast,
which I totally can understand, or people that are not in the situation are
going to have their opinion.
We'll just do this. We'll just stand your ground. Just stand.
The person that is listening that has been going through this for decades and
decades of how long they've been trying to make sense of this nonsense,
then this is still going to be a work in progress.
Let me go back to pillar one, because that assuming of good intentions,
while you assume the good intentions, or there's a reason why somebody is doing
what they're doing, it also helps in recognizing when the other person's actions
are inconsistent, when they don't consistently align line with their intentions.
So this starts to illuminate these patterns of manipulative behavior without
you getting entangled in those patterns.
So an example, recognizing manipulation from pillar one.
We will go back to the scenario discussing weekend plans again.
We got characters Jamie, who is the more emotionally mature partner,
Taylor, the narcissist.
So pillar one, assuming good intentions. So example, recognizing manipulation.
So the situation then would be Taylor, the narcissist, abruptly canceling weekend
family plans, again, suddenly claiming a need for me time.
Now, if we're looking at the pure application of pillar one,
Jamie starts by assuming good intentions, saying, okay, Taylor's not trying
to hurt me. I can understand you need your space.
And that is important for everybody.
Hey, tell me more. Can we talk about how we might balance that with the family time?
Because where the empowerment comes from is that approach allows allows Jamie
to acknowledge Taylor's needs, which might just be a Jamie thing of needing
to know that I am doing the best thing I can do, the right thing to me.
So acknowledging Taylor's needs while also gently highlighting the impact of
their decision, making it harder for Taylor to try and manipulate the situation
without accountability,
which if Taylor's a really good narcissist, they will still find an amazing
way to do that. So don't worry about that.
Pillar two, avoiding avoiding declaring the other person wrong.
Now on this one, let's look at this as a way to identify gaslighting because
by not immediately engaging in a conflict over different perspectives or different
perceptions, then you can just sit back, be a little more calm.
And this is more of this mindset. I'm observing, I'm identifying the typical
gaslighting tactics because this approach can help you maintain your sense of
reality even when someone else is trying to twist what your reality And that
it becomes an empowering thing that you can do.
So let's look at what that one looks like. Same characters. Taylor accuses Jamie
of never supporting their need for personal space.
That's one where in this scenario, Jamie knows that they absolutely support Taylor.
So by not saying that's ridiculous or wrong or I don't believe you,
instead of arguing, Jamie says, oh man, I didn't realize you felt that way.
Help me understand when you felt unsupported or what does it feel like for you to be supported?
The position of empowerment comes by not immediately countering the accusation.
Jamie opens the door to understanding Taylor's perspective, which can reveal,
and this is the key, in this scenario, because we've already identified the
narcissism in this particular dynamic, will reveal inconsistencies in Taylor's narrative.
And that is a common gaslighting tactic.
That lack of emotional consistency, when you start to see it, it's hard to unsee.
Pillar three then, if we look at this one, uncovering the hidden motive of if
you can ask questions before making comments,
because by asking questions, the partner not only gathers more information,
but you also encourage the narcissistic or emotionally immature person to reveal
more of their thought process, which can so highlight inconsistencies or manipulative strategies.
That pillar three, again, is tell me more. Because let's say that I assume good
intentions, or I could understand, or not even understand, I'll accept that
there's a reason why they're acting the way they are. And pillar two,
I'm not telling them they're wrong.
That's where moving into pillar three of saying, tell me more,
help me understand, is that if we're talking about just good old emotional immaturity.
And I'm not trying to make it sound so dismissive, but it may help you to see
what their thought process is.
Because maybe there is more of a, they just don't know what they don't know,
or I did not know somebody truly looked at it that way.
But then that would lead to more. Tell me more about that.
Give me examples of that. Help me understand. And if that person truly is desiring
to be heard or understood, then that's where their answer gets to be,
oh man, let me tell you more versus you wouldn't understand anyway.
And you know what? It's no big deal. Forget about it. Because those are those
answers that are, they were almost waiting for you to tell them they're wrong
so they could get into a disagreement or an argument because then they feel
like, okay, I know what to do with that.
But this part where I have to try to show myself, the emotionally immature is
operating from a false self.
So it is darn near impossible for them to then tap into whatever that really
means to them because they just need you to get angry so then they can point
out the flaws in you and let you know all the things you're doing wrong.
Wrong. Back to Taylor and Jamie.
So now we've got trying to uncovering hidden motives.
So situation would be Taylor often makes derogatory remarks about Jamie's friends.
These are all based on real life examples.
So in the application, then Jamie's going to say or ask, hey,
I noticed you seem uncomfortable with my friends. Can you share more about what bothers you about them?
Because that's going to empower Jamie. Because through questioning,
Jamie's encouraging Taylor to articulate their feelings, which can reveal the
underlying motives if they really are there versus just emotional immaturity or narcissism.
And then finally, my pillar four is something that can help you maintain sanity and boundaries.
So that pillar four, leaning in, staying present, staying present and engaged
without falling into a victim mentality, it will allow the partner to maintain
their sense of self and set healthy boundaries.
And remembering that a healthy boundary might be, I need to remove myself from
the situation and I might need to do it quickly.
But that is a healthy boundary. Even if the other person, it makes them angry career.
It's a stance that helps you manage interactions without being overwhelmed,
psychologically overwhelmed, emotionally overwhelmed.
As an example would be something like Taylor frequently trying to start arguments
over real small minor issues.
So then Jamie remaining calm, present, saying, hey, this looks important to
you. Let's just have a conversation about this so that we can try to understand
each other's perspective more.
So by staying engaged, leaning in, not going into a victim mindset and saying
things like, okay, I guess my opinion and doesn't matter, you know,
not retreating into a defensive or victim mentality, then Jamie's setting a
boundary for respectful communication.
And that will help them maintain their sanity and reduce the effectiveness of
Taylor's button pushing, which is what Taylor is trying to do in that scenario.
So in those scenarios, again, these four pillars are used to offer a framework,
help you navigate the very complex dynamic of interacting with the emotionally
immature narcissistic individual.
Back to then by assuming good intentions, or there's a reason why somebody does
what they do we're avoiding immediate confrontation and and that's gonna eventually
get us toward asking clarifying questions and staying engaged in a healthy way.
And so then you can maintain your own clarity, which is so empowering to then
help you recognize the manipulative patterns and establish boundaries.
And all of those are so crucial for managing that relationship with the narcissistic
or emotionally immature partner.
And I do want to say also that the four pillar framework is here to help all people,
all couples, all individuals, whatever the situation is, but the pathologically
kind person that that I understand that that can be such a challenge because
the pathologically kind person is often, and here's, I think maybe the,
this is what the previous episode that I talked about went into more detail on.
So if you haven't heard that, I would highly recommend you go back and listen to that.
Let me just, again, go back to, we'll just say the kind partner instead of pathologically
kind, because this is the person that is not the narcissist because they are
the ones that are seeking out help through books and podcasts and support groups and therapists.
And narcissistic partner who's less willing to seek help, but then enter the
world of a kid, regardless of the age, and that kind partner wants to cover
for or make excuses for the emotionally immature or narcissistic partner.
Well, again, I'll just go back to calling them the narcissist for simplicity's
sake and not throw them under the bus.
So an example might be then if the narcissist forgets to pick the kid up for
an activity or they're running hours late, that kind parent might say,
you know, I'm sure mom's just busy.
She really does care about you, thinking that they're doing the noble thing
by protecting the child from the actions in this scenario of their mom.
But if you look at the four pillars, the child is expressing frustration.
Then when the kind parent tells them that they're sure that mom didn't mean
it, they're essentially breaking my pillar too.
They're telling the child that, hey, your feelings are wrong.
That isn't what's happening.
Or that the kind parent doesn't believe what the kid is feeling,
even though the kind parent does not mean that.
So then the kid will feel unheard and unseen, like their feelings are wrong or don't matter.
And so by the kind parent using the four pillar framework with their kid,
they will be allowing them a safe place to feel heard and understood.
If the child expresses frustration depending on their age and maturity of the
child, then the kind parent can now not only validate, but they can also express
that they too maybe have been frustrated when mom hasn't followed through on some of the promises.
So they aren't throwing mom under the bus, but they are validating the kid's
feelings and helping them feel like they aren't alone by the dad in this situation
expressing that he too has felt that way and neither of them are are wrong.
That's absolutely their experience.
So then if the mom then wanted to have a conversation with the dad about it
using the four pillars, it could potentially either be a healing conversation
or more likely the kind parent, the dad in this situation,
will see that the narcissist can't sit with the discomfort of the conversation
and will be unable to keep the four pillar framework and therefore the dad will
then be able to more maturely assess the situation.
It really does get into a deeper level of fostering emotional validation and
understanding, especially for the the child.
Let me just now break down how the kind parent can utilize each pillar in this context.
So we'll just go with the assuming of good intentions.
Application with the kid. When the child expresses frustration about the narcissistic
parent's actions, whether it's being late or whatever that looks like,
the kind parent can start by acknowledging the child's feelings without immediately
defending the other parent.
This shows respect for the kid's perspective while not necessarily assuming
negative intentions on the part of the narcissistic parent.
And then pillar two, avoid declaring the other person wrong.
So the application with the kid, instead of dismissing the child's feelings
by saying, you know, your mom didn't mean it, the kind parent can say,
tell me more about this. Like, I can see that you seem to be upset.
Tell me more. Tell me what that's like. And when they start to open up that
it's because mom's always late, then it's, man, it's, I get that.
It's understandable to feel frustrated when you are so excited to go spend time
with them or when plans change unexpectedly or when you put off something else
for to do this and then mom isn't even showing up because that validates the
child's feelings without making them feel wrong for having those feelings.
And then asking questions before making comments. The application with the child,
the kind parent can now ask questions to better understand the child's feelings.
And this is so critical for starting to teach a kid that their emotions and feelings are okay.
They need to be able to express them. So for example, how to make you feel when mom was late.
That encourages the child to express and explore their emotions.
Fostering a deeper understanding.
And because if you're talking about mature parents, then if the mom's always
late, I hope that's something maybe that the mom can work on.
Or the mom's taking ownership of that. Man, yeah, I need to just plan better
or let's start going with a later pickup time or whatever that looks like.
And so that encourages the child, they need to be able to express themselves.
And I will start talking about this probably every chance I can.
But if you look at the origin story of the one of the origin stories of the
what's wrong with me goes back to this, if there's a right way when you're parenting.
And I'm talking about even a good parent.
Then that means everything else to the kid is the wrong way.
So then as they grow up and they're just being and doing and they're expressing
themselves and if they are continually told or more often than not told, ooh,
don't say it that way or why didn't you say it this way or you need to go share
or tell that person you're sorry or it's not a big deal or just calm down or
not right now or they didn't mean it or what was your part and what role did you play?
All of those things that the kid starts to feel like, wow, just walking around
being me, apparently I'm not right, I'm wrong.
So something must be wrong with me. So now I am going to internalize my emotions
and I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.
And welcome to the world of external validation. Now I need somebody else to tell me that I am okay.
Applying these principles is going to help you foster that knowledge by your
kid that their thoughts and feelings are okay.
And that if I react, that's a me issue.
And I'm going to teach them, I'm going to model them of what that looks like
and how to sit with that discomfort and how to have healthy conversations and
how to support them and what they're doing.
That leaning in and staying present. that fourth pillar, that in application
with the child, the kind parent can demonstrate empathy and presence,
which is so important, by sharing their own feelings in a measured way without
overwhelming the child or speaking ill of the other parent. I felt let down too.
So if the narcissistic parent challenges the kind parent, the kind parent can
employ the four pillars by acknowledging the narcissistic parent's perspective,
avoiding direct confrontation, asking clarifying questions, maintaining their
composure and empathy even.
And that approach is going to allow for, well, in a perfect world,
a conversation where emotions and perspectives can be expressed more healthily,
even if resolution isn't possible.
But by using the framework, the kind parent not only is able to validate and
support their child, but they model effective emotional communication.
And that's another big thing too. We most likely weren't modeled it ourselves
in childhood because people just didn't know, didn't have these tools.
So this approach helps the child feel heard and understood, and it starts to
equip them with the same emotional skills to navigate their feelings and relationships.
And if anybody is still listening right now and they think that sounds ridiculous,
then then I, man, tell me more about that.
Because as a marriage therapist doing this on a daily basis,
having thousands of people I've worked with and couples.
Then the amount of feedback I get where people are implementing the four pillars
with their sales teams and a business setting with their kids,
you name it, that it is an effective, mature way to communicate.
And we'll start to help the parent, the kind parent validate,
support the kid, processing their emotions, modeling this effective communication.
And then the more that you find yourself interacting with the more narcissistic
parent, this approach, these tools,
this awareness will help you manage conversations more maturely and assertively
in a healthy version of that, allowing the kind parent to better be able to
assess all the variables in the situation,
which allows them to maintain their own emotional well-being.
So that becomes just an incredible tool in nurturing healthy environment for
both the kid and the kind parent.
And then still, who knows, at some point, it would be amazing if that emotionally
immature parent at some point starts to say, okay, this whole thing does feel
different. Maybe I need to take a look at it differently.
But that's not your job to cause that aha moment or that epiphany.
Okay, we've been here long enough. It is 2024.
I wish you the best of a new year. We'll just go ahead and throw that out there.
New year, new you, cliched, but can be true.
And if you have thoughts and questions or anything about this episode,
examples, stories, haikus, you name it, then please send them to info or contact at tonyoverbay.com.
Have an amazing week, and I will see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.
Music.