WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.320 Music. 00:00:06.169 --> 00:00:10.609 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 100 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:10.709 --> 00:00:11.769 I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.909 --> 00:00:16.349 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast and Love ADHD. 00:00:16.909 --> 00:00:20.849 The Mind, The Mirror, Me, Murder on the Couch, and just please go check those 00:00:20.849 --> 00:00:25.169 out as well as the Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer podcast 00:00:25.169 --> 00:00:30.209 where a lot of the proceeds there go to help people that are in relationships 00:00:30.209 --> 00:00:34.229 with emotionally immature people and helping them get all sorts of help. 00:00:34.229 --> 00:00:35.969 Sign up for my newsletter as well. 00:00:36.209 --> 00:00:40.109 You can go to the show notes and you will see a link tree or go to tonyoverbay.com. 00:00:40.489 --> 00:00:45.049 A lot of new things are coming up, especially in the new year as 2024 comes 00:00:45.049 --> 00:00:47.909 around, updated magnetic marriage course. 00:00:48.129 --> 00:00:52.629 And I'm putting together some content specifically around navigating faith journeys, 00:00:52.849 --> 00:00:56.389 faith crisis, and I would appreciate your stories, especially if you felt like 00:00:56.389 --> 00:01:00.829 you are waking up to maybe even your own spirituality in your relationships. 00:01:01.029 --> 00:01:04.769 And what that's been like is you've expressed your thoughts or your opinions, or you name it. 00:01:05.129 --> 00:01:10.189 And you can send those to contact or info at tonyoverbay.com or just through the website. 00:01:10.529 --> 00:01:15.129 So let's talk about today's episode. I say I'm excited about all of them, 00:01:15.189 --> 00:01:16.709 but this one, it is a very special interview. 00:01:16.889 --> 00:01:20.269 I had the privilege of sitting down with who I would, I would call a friend, 00:01:20.409 --> 00:01:25.189 Kate Anthony, who I'm just blown away to even be able to have the privilege 00:01:25.189 --> 00:01:27.129 of talking with Kate or interacting with Kate. 00:01:27.269 --> 00:01:31.469 I've been a guest on her podcast, but she's a renowned divorce coach and the 00:01:31.469 --> 00:01:35.829 author of a new book, the d-word making the ultimate decision about your marriage 00:01:35.829 --> 00:01:39.029 and honestly this conversation is, 00:01:39.549 --> 00:01:45.129 cliched but it's an eye-opener for anybody who has found themselves or is currently. 00:01:45.743 --> 00:01:49.123 At a crossroads in their relationship, especially those who are dealing with 00:01:49.123 --> 00:01:52.583 the complexities of narcissism and emotional immaturity. 00:01:53.343 --> 00:01:56.983 And so before we even get to the heart of the interview, maybe I will set the stage. 00:01:57.143 --> 00:02:01.903 I think so often people just feel like everything must look perfect from the outside. 00:02:02.383 --> 00:02:05.903 Maybe they have a nice career or their spouse does and their kids look great 00:02:05.903 --> 00:02:08.583 and they have a home and they are even the envy of their friends, 00:02:08.723 --> 00:02:13.263 but inside they are struggling. That is a completely different story. 00:02:13.363 --> 00:02:14.683 That's so many of the stories that I get. 00:02:15.223 --> 00:02:19.283 And you may be feeling the weight of a marriage that is anything but fulfilling. 00:02:19.863 --> 00:02:21.883 And even to the point of being toxic. 00:02:22.083 --> 00:02:27.243 And remember, I am a marriage and family therapist. I'm in the let's help people business. 00:02:27.363 --> 00:02:32.383 And so this is not something that I take lightly because my four pillars of 00:02:32.383 --> 00:02:35.563 a connected conversation, the things I talk about, that we don't know what we 00:02:35.563 --> 00:02:38.383 don't know, and if people have the right tools and it gives them a chance. 00:02:38.383 --> 00:02:43.903 But there are people that are so emotionally immature or stunted or narcissistic 00:02:43.903 --> 00:02:48.443 that then even the act of trying to then get these new tools and use them becomes 00:02:48.443 --> 00:02:52.683 even more of an attack surface for the person that is now going to take those 00:02:52.683 --> 00:02:53.643 tools and weaponize them. 00:02:54.063 --> 00:02:57.003 Because that leaves so many people feeling like, am I the problem? 00:02:57.483 --> 00:03:00.363 And is it supposed to be this difficult even when we've gone to therapy or I'm 00:03:00.363 --> 00:03:01.643 reading the books or I'm getting the tools? 00:03:02.043 --> 00:03:04.803 And these are the questions that so many people, and 00:03:04.803 --> 00:03:07.663 today we're gonna talk especially about women grapple with 00:03:07.663 --> 00:03:10.723 and primarily they do so in silence and so 00:03:10.723 --> 00:03:14.023 that's what Kate addresses with her work and 00:03:14.023 --> 00:03:17.063 I think it's it's a pretty incredible book as a resource that 00:03:17.063 --> 00:03:19.803 just has everything that you maybe have 00:03:19.803 --> 00:03:22.743 asked yourself and then a lot of things that you didn't know that you 00:03:22.743 --> 00:03:27.783 didn't know are in her book and a little about Kate she's a certified Kate is 00:03:27.783 --> 00:03:31.303 certified as a domestic violence victims advocate by the state of California 00:03:31.303 --> 00:03:36.023 she's a co-parenting specialist by the Moston Guthrie Academy and as a high 00:03:36.023 --> 00:03:40.383 conflict divorce coach by Tina Swithin's High Conflict Divorce Coaching Certification Program, 00:03:40.803 --> 00:03:42.963 she's been through it. She knows what she's talking about. 00:03:43.583 --> 00:03:46.723 And throughout our conversation we explore a lot of topics. 00:03:47.607 --> 00:03:50.727 We really spend time with that critical decision-making process 00:03:50.727 --> 00:03:56.087 of whether to stay in or leave a marriage and i really feel like kate it brings 00:03:56.087 --> 00:04:00.187 a lot of humor she brings understanding she brings experience and she's worked 00:04:00.187 --> 00:04:06.187 with a lot of people and it's so it's a very unique perspective and not just 00:04:06.187 --> 00:04:09.907 as a professional but then she really has walked the path herself. 00:04:09.907 --> 00:04:13.787 Which I make the comment early in the interview that I have never been a woman 00:04:13.787 --> 00:04:17.747 going through divorce so I can put out all the content I want and I know that 00:04:17.747 --> 00:04:20.367 people are still going to say, yeah, but you don't know what you don't know. 00:04:20.887 --> 00:04:25.507 And hopefully they don't add old man to that. But she shares her journey of 00:04:25.507 --> 00:04:30.367 self-empowerment and the challenges that she faced and how she truly has emerged 00:04:30.367 --> 00:04:34.767 so much stronger on the other side as she has found herself and her sense of purpose. 00:04:34.767 --> 00:04:39.367 So, we do dig into a lot of topics like understanding the role of narcissism 00:04:39.367 --> 00:04:41.227 or emotional immaturity in relationships. 00:04:41.787 --> 00:04:44.727 We talk about the importance of establishing personal boundaries, 00:04:44.787 --> 00:04:47.667 that's so important to do and difficult to do. 00:04:48.147 --> 00:04:52.287 And really, the whole process of reclaiming your right to happiness. 00:04:53.027 --> 00:04:55.767 And so, for a lot of people, I think this conversation is going to be more than 00:04:55.767 --> 00:04:58.807 just informative, it can be a catalyst for change. 00:04:58.807 --> 00:05:04.567 And we make it clear, I quote Kate herself in the interview from her book about, 00:05:04.747 --> 00:05:08.467 she talks about sometimes that sitting on the fence, now the change that needs 00:05:08.467 --> 00:05:14.607 to be made is to jump back in with full intent or to now take steps to leave. 00:05:14.607 --> 00:05:21.187 But her insights are really empowering for women who are navigating these codependent 00:05:21.187 --> 00:05:25.307 relationships because she talks about the how important it is to self-acknowledge 00:05:25.307 --> 00:05:31.127 and and then that struggle of facing the truth about your marriage and about maybe where you're at. 00:05:31.556 --> 00:05:35.536 Because then it ends up being about trying to find that courage to admit what's 00:05:35.536 --> 00:05:39.496 really happening and then deciding what comes next, because that is a really 00:05:39.496 --> 00:05:43.056 scary thing that we often want somebody else to tell us what to do. 00:05:43.716 --> 00:05:48.096 And as a therapist, I, of course, try to share some anecdotes from my own experiences, 00:05:48.096 --> 00:05:51.036 and I think they really fit well with Kate's expertise. 00:05:51.036 --> 00:05:54.236 And we talk about the role 00:05:54.236 --> 00:05:57.516 that I think is pretty significant that therapists and coaches 00:05:57.516 --> 00:06:00.156 can play and there's I think I even talked about it on 00:06:00.156 --> 00:06:03.136 a previous podcast where I was talking about what bad therapy 00:06:03.136 --> 00:06:06.056 and bad coaching can do so I know that 00:06:06.056 --> 00:06:08.876 there are coaches and Kate has a line in the interview 00:06:08.876 --> 00:06:11.856 that I think says it so well that you know she's been through this 00:06:11.856 --> 00:06:15.476 and she's been certified and she's been doing this for a long time and she 00:06:15.476 --> 00:06:18.156 said she isn't just the coach who says 00:06:18.156 --> 00:06:21.416 I think I'll be a life coach now because I did something and I 00:06:21.416 --> 00:06:24.176 think that's really significant because she she knows what she's talking 00:06:24.176 --> 00:06:27.496 about but we talked about the balance between 00:06:27.496 --> 00:06:32.196 I as a therapist will never say this is what you need to do because how would 00:06:32.196 --> 00:06:35.316 I know what it's like to be you so I know that can be a role of a coach but 00:06:35.316 --> 00:06:40.076 even then it's still more of a muse to say well here's what I think is the right 00:06:40.076 --> 00:06:44.596 thing to do and that person now can say okay do I feel that way or if I do now 00:06:44.596 --> 00:06:46.816 I'm trying to take action on it and and it's really difficult for me, 00:06:47.156 --> 00:06:49.336 and then in comes the therapist as well. 00:06:49.416 --> 00:06:52.696 So it can be a really nice complimentary relationship. 00:06:53.336 --> 00:06:57.956 But the bottom line is a lot of people who are in these unhealthy relationships 00:06:57.956 --> 00:07:02.036 or marriages are there because they didn't have that secure attachment from 00:07:02.036 --> 00:07:03.696 childhood. They don't have a sense of self. 00:07:04.016 --> 00:07:08.076 So it makes sense that it would be incredibly difficult to take the steps to 00:07:08.076 --> 00:07:12.776 leave, but then their own body or they're just dying inside. 00:07:12.776 --> 00:07:17.856 And so there is aftermath after leaving an emotionally immature or narcissistic 00:07:17.856 --> 00:07:22.576 relationship and Kate doesn't back away from that as well So a tiny bit about her background. 00:07:22.576 --> 00:07:26.556 It's really fascinating She has spent her early years as an actor including 00:07:26.556 --> 00:07:31.076 a stint on Sesame Street and Grey's Anatomy Now there is a the full gamut of 00:07:31.076 --> 00:07:35.556 experience there and then she's had a lot of personal experiences of being in 00:07:35.556 --> 00:07:37.996 a toxic marriage So her story really is, 00:07:38.076 --> 00:07:42.036 it's a testament for the power of resilience and the importance of making decisions 00:07:42.036 --> 00:07:44.456 that are right for you and we spend some time talking about. 00:07:45.249 --> 00:07:48.809 Decisions that are right for your children. And I also want to take a real quick 00:07:48.809 --> 00:07:51.069 minute to acknowledge, I think, something really important. So, 00:07:51.229 --> 00:07:52.509 Kate's insights and experiences. 00:07:52.749 --> 00:07:57.269 Today, we talk a lot about speaking to women, dealing with emotionally immature or narcissistic men. 00:07:57.649 --> 00:08:01.069 But I know from my own practice that these dynamics are not gender exclusive. 00:08:01.509 --> 00:08:04.949 Many men find themselves in similar situations, and they're struggling, 00:08:05.189 --> 00:08:07.849 grappling with the decision of whether to stay with an emotionally immature 00:08:07.849 --> 00:08:09.849 or narcissistic woman or to go. 00:08:10.129 --> 00:08:13.569 And so that's where I just want to say, I see you, and I understand the unique 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:17.629 challenges that you face. But this book and our discussion today speaks to the 00:08:17.629 --> 00:08:20.329 overarching difficulties of the decision-making process. 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:24.689 And I want to acknowledge also same-sex couples who are navigating these waters. 00:08:24.889 --> 00:08:29.409 I mean, the emotional complexities, the pain, the journey toward a decision are universal. 00:08:30.029 --> 00:08:33.469 And I feel like it's safe to say they transcend gender and sexual orientation. 00:08:33.729 --> 00:08:36.229 I mean, because honestly, if you're a man in a relationship with an emotionally 00:08:36.229 --> 00:08:40.229 immature woman, that carries its own set of challenges and stigma as it can 00:08:40.229 --> 00:08:43.509 almost feel more embarrassing for the man. and he's not supposed to be able 00:08:43.509 --> 00:08:44.569 to be taken advantage of. 00:08:44.709 --> 00:08:48.989 Or I've worked with same-sex couples who are dealing with the challenges that 00:08:48.989 --> 00:08:53.369 they're already facing a challenge of feeling like they are on their own. 00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:56.309 And so then when trying to deal with an emotionally immature and narcissistic 00:08:56.309 --> 00:08:58.629 partner, it can feel even more alone or isolated. 00:08:59.089 --> 00:09:03.929 And that can even feel like the problem's more amplified. So to all my listeners, 00:09:04.109 --> 00:09:07.729 regardless of your specific circumstance, stay tuned, sit back, 00:09:07.829 --> 00:09:09.369 relax, you're not alone in this. 00:09:09.929 --> 00:09:13.289 And while the context might predominantly feature a certain type of relationship, 00:09:13.869 --> 00:09:17.069 it's safe to say the core message, the struggle of deciding what's best for 00:09:17.069 --> 00:09:22.869 you, it's a you thing, and a challenging relationship is something that so many people can relate to. 00:09:23.369 --> 00:09:26.029 You're the only one who truly knows what it's like to be you, 00:09:26.389 --> 00:09:31.169 and I believe you will glean some powerful insights from the conversation that I have with Kate. 00:09:31.249 --> 00:09:34.109 Now at the same time, there may also be moments of frustration, 00:09:34.349 --> 00:09:37.849 given the context of some of the things that we discuss, but even that can be 00:09:37.849 --> 00:09:40.029 an opportunity to self-confront and grow. 00:09:40.629 --> 00:09:44.049 So hold on to the fact that this is a conversation about empowerment and understanding 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:50.409 and making the right choice for yourself, no matter who you are or whom you are with. 00:09:50.889 --> 00:09:53.829 So whether you're taking a look at contemplating the future of your relationship 00:09:53.829 --> 00:09:58.029 or trying to seek understanding and support or just curious about the complex 00:09:58.029 --> 00:10:01.649 dynamics of divorce and narcissism, This is your episode. 00:10:01.969 --> 00:10:06.089 With that said, let me get to my interview with Kate Anthony. 00:10:09.709 --> 00:10:12.509 I was gonna have a hilarious joke that as we came into it, Kate, 00:10:12.589 --> 00:10:14.689 I was gonna be saying something really funny. So we'd both be laughing. 00:10:15.609 --> 00:10:19.209 I don't know what it is. And I forget the podcast goal that was spinning there 00:10:19.209 --> 00:10:20.429 when I said we better hit record. 00:10:21.089 --> 00:10:23.769 It was about my book. It was. And what's your book is amazing. 00:10:23.909 --> 00:10:27.629 Oh, okay. Here's what, here's my true confession. Honestly, it's so good. 00:10:27.709 --> 00:10:31.209 I had such an amazing time on your podcast and I couldn't wait to get you on 00:10:31.209 --> 00:10:34.989 mine and I think we found out that your book was going to come out so I delayed 00:10:34.989 --> 00:10:36.589 and then I thought, okay, it's going to think I was just. 00:10:37.048 --> 00:10:40.368 Saying nice things about, I'll have you on mine, but I couldn't wait. 00:10:40.768 --> 00:10:43.568 And then I get your book, and then it's really, really good. 00:10:43.728 --> 00:10:46.508 And I mean that in that it's well-researched. 00:10:46.568 --> 00:10:50.688 There's things about divorce and parenting that I can't wait to talk to you about. 00:10:51.028 --> 00:10:55.288 But I just love your whole vibe of meeting the person where they're at, 00:10:55.328 --> 00:10:57.108 and it's going to take as long as it's going to take. 00:10:57.348 --> 00:11:01.308 And there's just so much good there. And at this point, I've already done an 00:11:01.308 --> 00:11:03.928 incredible intro for you now. 00:11:04.528 --> 00:11:08.988 And so and so then I just I just I had such a fun time on your podcast. 00:11:08.988 --> 00:11:12.048 And so now I just want I want you to just take over. 00:11:12.488 --> 00:11:14.708 Drive. Tell me about your book. So take it away. 00:11:15.808 --> 00:11:18.808 So grateful. I mean, first of all, Tony, you know, I adore you. 00:11:19.148 --> 00:11:23.908 So I'm, and you texted me last night, which was just the sweetest, 00:11:24.068 --> 00:11:24.968 sweetest, sweetest thing. 00:11:25.068 --> 00:11:30.428 It's just such a great, you know what I did, actually, I screenshot your text. 00:11:30.448 --> 00:11:37.808 And I I started a folder in my album on my phone for nice things people say about my book. 00:11:38.128 --> 00:11:43.548 Because I know that I'm going to get, people are going to hate it because that's life, right? Yeah. 00:11:43.768 --> 00:11:50.208 And because I'm me, I'm going to get those reviews and what people say are going 00:11:50.208 --> 00:11:54.428 to mean way more than the nice things that people say. 00:11:54.928 --> 00:11:58.608 So I was like, okay, I'm going to start a little album so that I can just remember. 00:11:59.168 --> 00:12:02.668 Oh, good. So you're the first you're the first screenshot in my little album. I hope I get more. 00:12:02.948 --> 00:12:08.248 Okay Well, I'm honored because I really I sat down I meant to read it much sooner 00:12:08.248 --> 00:12:12.068 and I was just going through it and I couldn't stop reading it and because you're 00:12:12.068 --> 00:12:13.548 you're hilarious Anyway, 00:12:13.768 --> 00:12:18.448 and I feel like it's such a good mix of it is so real and so raw and funny And 00:12:18.448 --> 00:12:21.808 then as somebody that works in this space trying to help women But I've never 00:12:21.808 --> 00:12:23.108 been a woman going through divorce. 00:12:23.128 --> 00:12:25.428 And so I just feel like you speak to it. 00:12:25.628 --> 00:12:29.388 So well Yeah, let's talk about it. Maybe tell my audience here, 00:12:29.448 --> 00:12:31.608 tell us about you. Who are you, Kate? Okay. 00:12:31.968 --> 00:12:36.528 Well, so my name is Kate Anthony. I have a podcast called the Divorce Survival 00:12:36.528 --> 00:12:41.408 Guide Podcast that Tony has been a guest on and will probably be a few more 00:12:41.408 --> 00:12:44.468 times if we can, if we can get it together. Oh yes. Yeah. 00:12:44.928 --> 00:12:51.268 Um, we had a great time when you came on mine. Uh, and I, I am a divorce coach. 00:12:51.288 --> 00:12:56.568 I am a certified, like my certifications are sort of, so I'm I'm certified as 00:12:56.568 --> 00:13:00.288 an individual coach, as a relationship systems coach. 00:13:00.949 --> 00:13:05.509 As a domestic violence victim's advocate, as a co-parenting specialist, 00:13:05.809 --> 00:13:07.609 and as a high-conflict divorce goer. 00:13:08.029 --> 00:13:11.129 Wow, okay. That's a lot of things. It's a lot. 00:13:11.429 --> 00:13:17.929 It's a lot. I know. My book is called The D Word, Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage. 00:13:18.169 --> 00:13:24.009 And my niche in this industry, really, is helping women make the really, 00:13:24.089 --> 00:13:27.469 really, really hard decision of whether to stay or go. 00:13:27.769 --> 00:13:32.029 That's really what my book is all about. It also walks through and talks about 00:13:32.029 --> 00:13:36.449 the process of divorce because I think that people need to know like what to expect, right? 00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:39.309 It's it's one thing to be like, yeah, I'm gonna leave but it's like well, 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:41.849 hold on a second What does that mean for my life? 00:13:42.089 --> 00:13:46.669 Yeah, it's the kind of thing you need to have a lot of information about I'm 00:13:46.669 --> 00:13:50.389 divorced Yes And even that part is amazing because I feel like the people that 00:13:50.389 --> 00:13:53.629 are going through this and I always identify them the pathologically kind and 00:13:53.629 --> 00:13:56.289 women that are in these relationships with emotionally immature, 00:13:56.469 --> 00:13:57.989 maybe even narcissistic guys, 00:13:58.349 --> 00:14:01.089 and they're in that human magnet syndrome and the trauma bond, 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:04.369 and so it can be such a process, and there's so much unknown, 00:14:04.589 --> 00:14:06.309 and you talk about that so well, 00:14:06.689 --> 00:14:09.909 and I think that fear of the unknown, you really help calm, I think, 00:14:09.929 --> 00:14:11.729 a lot of the, what do I need to know? 00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:15.989 Because a lot of times, the first person they go to is the emotionally immature 00:14:15.989 --> 00:14:19.709 husband, who then, of course, tells them, oh yeah, you'll get nothing, 00:14:19.869 --> 00:14:21.809 I will ruin you, the kids will never see you, 00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:26.229 I will do this and this, And then all that maybe she needs to do to start is 00:14:26.229 --> 00:14:30.049 go meet with somebody or something, who knows, but then that's the last thing he wants. 00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:34.449 Yeah. So you got everything in there. You need, all you've got to do is get 00:14:34.449 --> 00:14:41.629 yourself informed with actual knowledge, because the person who is emotionally 00:14:41.629 --> 00:14:44.929 immature or is whatever, whatever it is, right. 00:14:45.009 --> 00:14:48.849 When they're abusive, whatever they are, that's not the person you should be 00:14:48.849 --> 00:14:49.709 getting your information. 00:14:50.309 --> 00:14:52.889 No, right. because they're not exactly. 00:14:53.784 --> 00:14:59.104 You know, their job in this, their purpose in this is not to help you make this decision. 00:14:59.384 --> 00:15:03.204 It's to probably keep you from leaving. 00:15:03.964 --> 00:15:08.064 And they'll probably say anything that they feel that they need to in order 00:15:08.064 --> 00:15:11.604 to do that. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:15:12.384 --> 00:15:15.444 So back to you and your background. So yeah, so you, the certifications and 00:15:15.444 --> 00:15:19.064 you've been divorced and then... I have been divorced for 15 years. 00:15:19.204 --> 00:15:20.824 I've, you know, and I've been through 00:15:20.824 --> 00:15:24.804 it. I've through it back when I was struggling to make this decision. 00:15:25.184 --> 00:15:28.584 We didn't have podcasts, we didn't have Instagram. 00:15:29.464 --> 00:15:35.944 We weren't having these conversations out loud. I had no idea what I was dealing with. 00:15:36.444 --> 00:15:41.384 Our couples therapist said, Kate, you're codependent, go away and read about 00:15:41.384 --> 00:15:43.604 codependence and you know, learn about that. 00:15:44.084 --> 00:15:49.224 And David, you are a narcissist, go ahead and read about that. 00:15:49.224 --> 00:15:50.924 That's right. So we have the diagnosis. 00:15:51.704 --> 00:15:54.844 To his credit, you know, my ex was like, Well, I looked it up on the internet. 00:15:55.064 --> 00:15:58.104 And all I found was stuff about narcissistic personality disorder. 00:15:58.104 --> 00:15:59.844 And I know I don't have that. 00:16:00.484 --> 00:16:05.644 And the therapist said, You're right, you don't. And that was the last we ever talked about it. Oh. 00:16:07.884 --> 00:16:15.244 Right. And, you know, and I never, I never looked it up. I never actually looked it up. 00:16:15.464 --> 00:16:18.604 I was like, Oh, I'm codependent. So I will do that work. 00:16:18.744 --> 00:16:24.324 And listen, I did that work, like with every fiber of my being. 00:16:24.624 --> 00:16:27.464 And talk about that. What does that look like? Because I feel like that is the 00:16:27.464 --> 00:16:31.144 the pathologically kind, the codependent, the eternally nice. 00:16:31.504 --> 00:16:33.184 What did that look like the work you were doing? 00:16:33.781 --> 00:16:41.341 Oh my God. Well, first of all, um, it was, I was, I had already been for five, 00:16:41.721 --> 00:16:44.641 five years, I think at that. No, no. 00:16:44.881 --> 00:16:49.081 It may be like seven years at that point. I had already been in, 00:16:49.221 --> 00:16:51.901 um, a 12 step program for people like me. 00:16:52.081 --> 00:16:55.781 So I had been doing that work, but I was like, okay, I'll return to like, 00:16:55.961 --> 00:16:59.261 you know, and with motherhood and all of that, I wasn't going to meetings. 00:16:59.281 --> 00:17:02.861 I I wasn't really, you know, up on it. So I did, I went back to meetings. 00:17:03.561 --> 00:17:07.181 I read, of course, Melanie Beattie, now a codependent of mine, 00:17:07.301 --> 00:17:10.501 which I don't think is the best book on codependence, to be honest. 00:17:10.541 --> 00:17:15.041 I think the best book on codependence is Pia Melody's book, Facing Codependence. 00:17:15.501 --> 00:17:21.901 I think that book is absolutely brilliant. I feel like I, I mean, what did I do? 00:17:22.041 --> 00:17:26.421 I bent myself into more pretzels. Okay, I would've met, that was my guess. 00:17:26.561 --> 00:17:28.081 That was my guess, yeah. Yeah. 00:17:28.401 --> 00:17:32.161 Which is of course like the codependent thing to do, right? I was like, Oh, okay. 00:17:32.341 --> 00:17:39.141 I'm codependent. So let me work extra hard at being better for him. Yeah. 00:17:39.341 --> 00:17:47.421 Because I was, I was married to somebody who was hypercritical of me was there was nothing I could do. 00:17:47.521 --> 00:17:52.661 I mean, I, Tony, he, he told me one time that he hated the sound of my voice. 00:17:52.841 --> 00:17:57.941 Oh, okay. And I promptly lost my voice for four days. 00:17:58.401 --> 00:18:02.721 I mean, no sound would come out. I didn't know what was happening. I was so terrified. 00:18:03.141 --> 00:18:07.781 Wow. I didn't know what was happening. No sound would come out of my mouth until 00:18:07.781 --> 00:18:11.181 someone said to me, he told you he hates the sound of your voice. 00:18:11.541 --> 00:18:15.241 You are like psychologically, right? Yes. 00:18:15.541 --> 00:18:21.261 Subconsciously, so desperate to be enough for this man that I literally lost my voice. Yeah. 00:18:21.601 --> 00:18:25.801 Your body's trying to tell you something there. I mean, it really is. Geez, Louise, right? 00:18:26.681 --> 00:18:28.821 You know, so he was so hypercritical of me. 00:18:29.961 --> 00:18:33.461 And we would always get to this point where I would say, but you're mean to 00:18:33.461 --> 00:18:36.921 me. But I feel like you want to program me like a robot. 00:18:38.081 --> 00:18:41.901 And then he would say, well, if you just did this, right? 00:18:42.241 --> 00:18:46.801 And then I would do that, I would work towards that. Or it was always, 00:18:46.921 --> 00:18:48.321 no, no, you're right, you're right. 00:18:48.941 --> 00:18:52.281 That's true. But you know, you have a part in this too. 00:18:53.141 --> 00:18:57.501 And so, and then we would focus, you know, he would sort of cop to something, 00:18:57.601 --> 00:19:02.241 just enough to get this, to change the subject away from him and back onto me. 00:19:02.301 --> 00:19:07.041 Okay, and then by him saying the hip cop into anything, would you feel like, oh, okay, okay. 00:19:07.081 --> 00:19:10.721 So there's movement there, or would that feel like he's taken ownership of a 00:19:10.721 --> 00:19:11.341 little bit of something? 00:19:11.521 --> 00:19:16.381 Yeah, he's really good at it looking like he's taking ownership. 00:19:17.081 --> 00:19:20.181 But it took a long time. It took a while for me to be like... 00:19:20.836 --> 00:19:25.316 And this is a man who was also in a 12-step program at that point, 00:19:25.396 --> 00:19:29.376 had been for, I think, 15 years. 00:19:30.396 --> 00:19:35.516 And so, right, I was like, you know, there's a difference between an apology and an amends. 00:19:36.256 --> 00:19:41.696 If you keep apologizing without changing your behavior, you know, 00:19:41.856 --> 00:19:44.296 I did get to the point where I was like, your apologies mean nothing. 00:19:46.636 --> 00:19:51.356 But what I, you know, I was still trying convince him. I was still trying to 00:19:51.356 --> 00:19:53.756 convince him to love me. Yeah. 00:19:54.356 --> 00:20:00.056 Yeah. Convince him to choose me. And it wasn't until I got to the point where 00:20:00.056 --> 00:20:07.156 I realized that I had to choose me and that he wasn't going to. 00:20:07.376 --> 00:20:10.676 He wasn't. He really wasn't because he wasn't really capable, 00:20:11.236 --> 00:20:13.656 but it was me. Yeah. Right? 00:20:13.856 --> 00:20:18.216 It was me. Well, I think that part is so hard to, I get that question often 00:20:18.216 --> 00:20:19.276 of what does that even mean? 00:20:19.436 --> 00:20:23.136 And I think it is the part where if I'm still looking to that other person for 00:20:23.136 --> 00:20:26.816 validation to tell me if I'm okay or the things I like, or, 00:20:27.136 --> 00:20:29.896 and I look at that as that form of betrayal trauma even there, 00:20:29.976 --> 00:20:34.476 where I'm handing my self over and saying, do you think this, there's truth in this? 00:20:34.636 --> 00:20:38.336 And then you just handed that person buttons to push depending on however they 00:20:38.336 --> 00:20:40.616 feel or what they need from you in that moment. 00:20:41.276 --> 00:20:45.996 Yeah. Right. And it's a process, right? Like, because you get into the relationship 00:20:45.996 --> 00:20:52.036 with all of the, you know, the sort of fake empathy and all the false connection 00:20:52.036 --> 00:20:53.236 and all of that stuff, right? 00:20:53.256 --> 00:20:59.876 And you get deeply entrenched and then it's like this whittling away of the promise. 00:21:00.496 --> 00:21:05.056 And so we're just trying to get back to that, well, but, but this is what I 00:21:05.056 --> 00:21:06.336 thought this was our foundation. 00:21:07.456 --> 00:21:12.216 And it's really hard to wrap your head around the fact that what was sold to 00:21:12.216 --> 00:21:13.176 you is not the foundation. 00:21:13.516 --> 00:21:15.816 Yeah, yeah, actually. Yeah. Right. 00:21:16.556 --> 00:21:21.436 And it's and it's devastating to have to accept that. 00:21:22.196 --> 00:21:25.316 Well, I appreciate you saying except because I think that's all somebody can 00:21:25.316 --> 00:21:29.156 do in that situation. But I know even that acceptance is quite a process because 00:21:29.156 --> 00:21:32.016 we go through that whole what's wrong with me, I can figure it out. 00:21:32.356 --> 00:21:37.076 It's it must be me if I just say this, and and how much how much time is spent 00:21:37.076 --> 00:21:42.396 trying to figure out the relationship versus trying to just be and do and do 00:21:42.396 --> 00:21:43.556 the things that matter to you. 00:21:43.676 --> 00:21:48.356 And I think about that form of control that the narcissist has of just occupying 00:21:48.356 --> 00:21:52.016 all of you, the inner landscape of your mind constantly. Did you find that was the case? 00:21:52.704 --> 00:21:57.504 Oh, 100%. 100%. That's why, you know, in the book, people always say like, 00:21:57.584 --> 00:21:58.984 Well, where do you start where you begin? 00:21:59.044 --> 00:22:03.124 And that's why I begin the book with, we got to get back to you and who you 00:22:03.124 --> 00:22:06.864 are, because you really do when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, 00:22:07.524 --> 00:22:10.884 or someone who's abusing you, or whatever it is, whatever we, 00:22:11.064 --> 00:22:13.364 you know, emotionally immature, whatever we want to call it, right? 00:22:13.444 --> 00:22:18.124 When you're in a relationship with someone that is not relating to you equally, 00:22:18.124 --> 00:22:25.824 and treating you with love and respect and as if they like you, or whatever, right? 00:22:25.964 --> 00:22:30.644 When it feels like they're just trying to get something from you all the time 00:22:30.644 --> 00:22:36.444 that you just can't give, because it's not your play, like you try, 00:22:36.624 --> 00:22:39.004 right? It's like you're being siphoned. 00:22:39.204 --> 00:22:43.644 It's like all of the energy and love is being siphoned out of you and nothing 00:22:43.644 --> 00:22:49.944 is coming back in. And so you're kind of left so empty. 00:22:50.964 --> 00:22:57.004 And you've been bending yourself into pretzels to try to figure out how you 00:22:57.004 --> 00:23:00.904 can be better, how you can be different, right? 00:23:01.084 --> 00:23:04.964 And so it's like, yeah, you lose yourself. You don't know, like, 00:23:05.044 --> 00:23:07.364 I had no idea who I was anymore. 00:23:07.524 --> 00:23:12.644 Well, and Kate, I think it's important to note too, you were a successful actress, right, at the time? 00:23:12.744 --> 00:23:15.884 Is that the case? I mean, so, and I think this is where, when people see that, 00:23:15.944 --> 00:23:21.564 they think, well, then you must have had yourself figured out or you must have, right? Sure. 00:23:25.024 --> 00:23:29.224 Listen, listen, actors, we don't, we're the most fucked up. 00:23:30.344 --> 00:23:33.724 We really, we don't know who we are. We don't know anything. 00:23:34.344 --> 00:23:38.924 Okay. So was that that proverbial? I could go escape into these characters because 00:23:38.924 --> 00:23:40.744 I didn't know who I was or. 00:23:41.264 --> 00:23:44.824 Oh, sure. Yeah, totally. I mean, well, look, here's the thing, actually. 00:23:45.124 --> 00:23:50.064 Yeah. Yes. Right. There is that escape into it. But also I think. 00:23:50.724 --> 00:23:56.904 A really good actor is an observer and a studier of the human condition. 00:23:57.264 --> 00:24:01.984 Oh, I see where we're going. Like really, like we study people. 00:24:02.204 --> 00:24:13.164 And so I was so much better at creating characters because I was so focused on everybody else. 00:24:13.204 --> 00:24:16.444 My codependency was like, my focus was always outward. 00:24:16.984 --> 00:24:21.004 It was the me stuff that was missing. 00:24:21.424 --> 00:24:27.904 But it didn't matter, right? Because I could create something entirely out of thin air. 00:24:28.244 --> 00:24:32.244 And I was really good at it. I was really good at it. 00:24:32.524 --> 00:24:35.544 What's interesting is that as soon as I decided to leave my marriage, 00:24:35.624 --> 00:24:45.164 I also left the business, Okay, acting, the the entertainment industry, because as an actor, 00:24:45.764 --> 00:24:50.624 you are the victim, it is an abusive relationship that actors have with the 00:24:50.624 --> 00:24:51.444 entertainment industry. 00:24:51.624 --> 00:24:54.824 We are the lowest on the totem pole, certainly in film and television. 00:24:55.224 --> 00:24:58.624 You know, I'm in LA now I was raised in theater. That's not the case in theater 00:24:58.624 --> 00:25:00.944 and theater. Actors are respected and revered. 00:25:01.464 --> 00:25:04.224 In television, nobody gives a shit. It's like it's a factory. 00:25:04.924 --> 00:25:10.004 And you go on an audition and you, you know, vomit your soul. 00:25:11.104 --> 00:25:14.584 And then they say, okay, thanks. And you walk out the door and they never call 00:25:14.584 --> 00:25:16.944 you. They don't tell you, hey, you know what? You were great. 00:25:17.084 --> 00:25:20.404 Thank you for all that you put into that. We're gonna go a different direction. 00:25:20.504 --> 00:25:22.044 So it's based on ghosting. 00:25:23.604 --> 00:25:27.104 You know? Yeah. I never thought about that. That is a trauma bond. 00:25:27.244 --> 00:25:31.944 Intermittent reinforcement, the punisher and they give you the reward comes from the same. 00:25:32.544 --> 00:25:36.624 Wow. Right. And you're booking one out of every hundred auditions. 00:25:37.264 --> 00:25:42.184 So the reward is one in a hundred. It's about the average. 00:25:43.486 --> 00:25:47.846 And so, and then that reward is like glamor and money and blah, 00:25:47.906 --> 00:25:49.406 blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's done. 00:25:49.606 --> 00:25:52.526 And then it's not like a corporate thing where you climb the ladder. 00:25:52.746 --> 00:26:00.026 Like every time you get a job and the job is over, you're back at the bottom rung of the ladder. 00:26:00.386 --> 00:26:06.766 Right. And so it is, it is this totally, it's a, it's a, just a mind bending experience. 00:26:06.986 --> 00:26:09.966 I bet. As soon as I got out of my marriage, I was like, Oh wait, 00:26:10.026 --> 00:26:15.146 I don't choose to be in these relationships anymore. Okay, I love that. In any of them. Yeah. 00:26:16.066 --> 00:26:20.406 And that ended my 20-year relationship with my two best friends. 00:26:21.606 --> 00:26:28.886 It ended my career. It ended my marriage. It ended my capacity to be victimized. 00:26:29.166 --> 00:26:31.506 Yeah, okay. And can I speak to this? And this is where you can say, 00:26:31.546 --> 00:26:34.186 I thought you read the book, Old Man, if you have a part in there that where 00:26:34.186 --> 00:26:37.006 this part, what I'm about to ask, but if you do, I'll edit that part out. 00:26:37.286 --> 00:26:39.886 I love what you're saying there because I find that there is a part, 00:26:39.886 --> 00:26:42.746 because I work with a lot of women that are coming out of these relationships, 00:26:43.306 --> 00:26:47.706 and they start to feel like everybody around them is emotionally immature or narcissistic. 00:26:48.146 --> 00:26:50.926 And then they feel like, okay, then it must be me. And then I'm sitting there 00:26:50.926 --> 00:26:53.706 saying, um, they kind of are because that I mean, I hate to say it, 00:26:53.726 --> 00:26:55.946 but that, and I feel so bad saying it. 00:26:55.986 --> 00:26:59.946 But if, if the, if the woman's in that position, in those relationships, 00:27:00.406 --> 00:27:03.106 that then when she does, I love what you're saying, when you get out of the 00:27:03.106 --> 00:27:06.886 marriage, then and the relationship with the career you were in, 00:27:06.986 --> 00:27:09.046 I mean, and then the people around you. 00:27:09.046 --> 00:27:11.826 And so all of a sudden this person will feel so alone, which is part of the 00:27:11.826 --> 00:27:16.366 problem, but then they can actually find real connection, real friendships, 00:27:16.566 --> 00:27:19.326 things that they didn't know even existed. Was that the case for you? 00:27:19.982 --> 00:27:23.482 I mean, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent. I literally just, 00:27:23.522 --> 00:27:25.942 I just posted about this on Instagram the other day, actually, 00:27:26.082 --> 00:27:29.582 because I, yeah, I didn't know who I was. 00:27:29.682 --> 00:27:32.322 The friendships that I had were based, were really toxic. 00:27:32.542 --> 00:27:37.762 They were all based on the premise of me being damaged and, you know, 00:27:37.862 --> 00:27:40.942 and so that I could be controlled. Right. 00:27:41.762 --> 00:27:48.542 And when I got out of my marriage, I just, it was like those things became so stark, right? 00:27:48.622 --> 00:27:51.142 Like it was such a sharp contrast. 00:27:51.522 --> 00:27:57.922 I was like, oh my God, I have chosen this in every aspect of my life. 00:27:58.102 --> 00:28:02.222 And of course I did. I chose my husband. It was me choosing. 00:28:02.902 --> 00:28:07.782 I did it for a reason. I have trauma from my childhood that just was like a 00:28:07.782 --> 00:28:10.702 direct path to all of this, right? 00:28:11.102 --> 00:28:19.582 And so when you choose to get off the path and get into some healing, then you are. 00:28:21.842 --> 00:28:24.982 When those things that are still in your life, you don't think about that. 00:28:25.062 --> 00:28:27.402 You're like, oh, I'm leaving my marriage, right? And then all of a sudden, 00:28:27.642 --> 00:28:31.042 all these other things are like, ooh, that doesn't, that, wow, 00:28:31.242 --> 00:28:34.662 that feels gross now, because it's not the air I breathe anymore. 00:28:35.282 --> 00:28:39.982 And you start to see it all over the place, And then there is this weeding out 00:28:39.982 --> 00:28:43.702 of, okay, I guess I have to say goodbye here. 00:28:43.722 --> 00:28:48.302 And you think that your friends are going to be there for you and they're going to see you through. 00:28:49.062 --> 00:28:54.902 And nine times out of 10, your friends have really messed up reactions to your divorce. 00:28:55.362 --> 00:28:58.822 They're not there for you in the way you want them to be. And then usually it's 00:28:58.822 --> 00:29:02.622 because of their own thing, but also because of the people that you have chosen. 00:29:02.822 --> 00:29:06.462 Right. And so as soon as I I got out of that. 00:29:06.582 --> 00:29:12.122 I was then able to forge some of the most beautiful friendships. 00:29:12.482 --> 00:29:16.062 I mean, my friends, people comment on it all the time. They're like, 00:29:16.162 --> 00:29:19.682 you have an incredible circle of friends. And yeah, I do. 00:29:20.002 --> 00:29:23.282 Yeah. I do. I fostered that. I worked hard for that. 00:29:23.602 --> 00:29:29.542 Yeah. And you know, I have friends who like last week texted me and they're 00:29:29.542 --> 00:29:31.342 like, we wanna take you out to celebrate your book. 00:29:31.922 --> 00:29:35.982 Like who does that? You know, and they took me out to this beautiful restaurant. 00:29:36.262 --> 00:29:39.662 And then I had this other friend who was visiting from New Mexico, 00:29:39.662 --> 00:29:42.942 who was staying an hour away, but she was in LA. 00:29:43.002 --> 00:29:46.282 So she drove an hour to just come and say hi at this dinner. 00:29:46.462 --> 00:29:49.782 Like, you know, that's, those are the kinds of relationships, 00:29:50.122 --> 00:29:51.562 you know, that you get to have. 00:29:51.842 --> 00:29:54.522 Well, when you say that too, I love it because that mean, I think that the people 00:29:54.522 --> 00:29:58.302 that are good friends or good people are saying, Oh, I would have driven two hours, three hours. 00:29:58.302 --> 00:30:00.982 But then when you've been in those relationships with emotionally immature, 00:30:01.482 --> 00:30:05.242 well, there'll be a price to pay for that. Well, there's going to be a reciprocity 00:30:05.242 --> 00:30:07.302 or do you remember how far I drove? 00:30:07.462 --> 00:30:09.862 I mean, there's so many things that the strings attached, right? 00:30:10.322 --> 00:30:15.722 A hundred percent, a hundred percent. That's exactly the relationship I had 00:30:15.722 --> 00:30:19.182 with my best friend, that it was so like. 00:30:19.604 --> 00:30:23.664 You know, there was all this scorekeeping and all of this tit for tat. 00:30:23.904 --> 00:30:29.464 And well, I did this thing for you and you know, you're not grateful enough, you know? 00:30:29.504 --> 00:30:35.064 And so it really is right now, like even 15 years later, when I have like real 00:30:35.064 --> 00:30:37.884 genuine friends doing beautiful, 00:30:38.544 --> 00:30:44.104 generous, selfless acts, I still get amazed that people are like that, 00:30:44.244 --> 00:30:46.104 even though that's how I am as a friend. 00:30:48.464 --> 00:30:53.404 I think there's this concept where when you, I got to do this for anybody watching on YouTube, 00:30:53.584 --> 00:30:56.904 but if you're the narcissist here and you're here and then you get out of that 00:30:56.904 --> 00:31:01.064 relationship and now here's this more normal person, all of a sudden you didn't 00:31:01.064 --> 00:31:03.584 realize you become the a little more crazy one. 00:31:03.664 --> 00:31:05.964 So when they say, Hey, I'm going to go hang out with my friends this weekend, 00:31:06.044 --> 00:31:07.204 it's, Oh, what's your angle? 00:31:07.324 --> 00:31:09.944 What's that supposed to mean? Well, I'm going to hang out with my friend. 00:31:10.004 --> 00:31:12.884 It's kind of a period at the end of that, but that's where that the emotionally 00:31:12.884 --> 00:31:16.724 mature can make one feel like, okay, I got to be on my guard. That's right. 00:31:16.944 --> 00:31:19.844 Yeah. Hey, in your book, can I quote you? Have you had anybody do that? 00:31:20.084 --> 00:31:22.104 Have you had? No. Okay, good. 00:31:23.044 --> 00:31:27.584 Okay. Hey, let me quote you when you say Is this but this is so good though 00:31:27.584 --> 00:31:30.304 I think it's when you said this book will lead you to a place of clarity where 00:31:30.304 --> 00:31:32.144 you can make a truly informed empowered Decision, 00:31:32.224 --> 00:31:35.664 but here's the thing my love which I love still Okay I need you to be ready 00:31:35.664 --> 00:31:38.204 for that in order for you to get the most out of this book you need to be ready 00:31:38.204 --> 00:31:42.404 for Answers and this is so good for many of us sitting and the in-between is 00:31:42.404 --> 00:31:45.124 preferable to getting to a place of clarity In her book, 00:31:45.244 --> 00:31:49.784 Untamed, Glennon Doyle calls this the choice between an uncomfortable truth and a comfortable lie. 00:31:50.244 --> 00:31:52.864 You know, and this is again, my friend Kate Anthony, I'm quoting her directly, 00:31:53.264 --> 00:31:55.724 you know you can't continue on like this, but for many, 00:31:56.044 --> 00:31:59.144 the idea of finding out that they have to fully commit to their marriage or 00:31:59.144 --> 00:32:02.144 fully commit to leaving their marriage means they no longer get to sit on a 00:32:02.144 --> 00:32:05.664 fence that they've made their home. They no longer get to not know. 00:32:06.124 --> 00:32:10.004 That's beautiful. I feel like you just encapsulated what I hear people say, 00:32:10.064 --> 00:32:14.604 where at some point they say, I don't know if I'm ready. I don't want to know. That's right. 00:32:14.964 --> 00:32:18.004 And what was that and how long of a process was that for you? Do you remember? 00:32:18.659 --> 00:32:22.519 Oh, I do. I do. I was desperate. I was actually desperate to know. 00:32:22.679 --> 00:32:27.459 And I kept asking people, my friends who had been divorced. 00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:31.199 I mean, I asked everyone, I was like, you know, like, so how do you, 00:32:31.219 --> 00:32:32.159 how do you, how do you know? 00:32:32.299 --> 00:32:35.099 How do you know when it's, when you finally reach the end? 00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:40.619 Right. Cause I think that we have this idea that there's like one more thing. 00:32:40.939 --> 00:32:48.139 Yeah, for sure. Yes. Right. There's like, there's this one magic switch that 00:32:48.139 --> 00:32:50.239 when we find it in the dark, 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:55.159 like we've been pounding the wall looking for it, but once we find it, 00:32:55.739 --> 00:32:56.819 everything will change. 00:32:57.099 --> 00:33:07.279 Yes. It's the one thing that, and if I choose now, I'm going to have lost the opportunity to find it. 00:33:07.479 --> 00:33:10.159 Yeah. I won't have certainty and I'll always regret and I'll never know. 00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:11.299 I need that certainty. That's right. 00:33:12.419 --> 00:33:17.859 And so I was asking everyone, I was like, how do you know when you've searched that wall enough? 00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:21.539 When you've hit all corners or you've done all the switches, 00:33:21.779 --> 00:33:24.819 but like not that one. Like, how do you know when you've done them all? 00:33:25.899 --> 00:33:30.779 And they, you know, and as I talk about in the book, my friend was like, 00:33:31.099 --> 00:33:32.239 when you know, you'll know. 00:33:32.539 --> 00:33:38.479 And I was like, that's not, but I don't know. Yeah. 00:33:39.479 --> 00:33:42.579 When will I know? Yeah. How do I know? What's the process? 00:33:42.959 --> 00:33:50.599 What do I need to do so that I know that I'm done and that it's okay? 00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:58.019 And that's what I want this book to be. It's my antidote to you'll know when you know. Yeah. 00:33:58.479 --> 00:34:04.559 And like I say, you may finish this book and you probably know. 00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.859 So the thing is that the people who, the people who are like, 00:34:07.939 --> 00:34:09.959 I'm not ready to know, they know. 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:14.339 They just don't want to know that they know, right? Oh, I know, 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.119 yes. Right, right. And that's okay. 00:34:17.399 --> 00:34:22.259 But that's okay, right? It's totally okay. You know that. 00:34:23.556 --> 00:34:30.056 Once you say it to one person, once you admit it to yourself and speak it to 00:34:30.056 --> 00:34:32.316 one person, it's over. Yeah. Right? 00:34:32.876 --> 00:34:37.676 You know, I have a friend who's going through this right now and she has not spoken to me. 00:34:38.456 --> 00:34:40.796 Oh. Okay. She doesn't want to know. 00:34:42.196 --> 00:34:45.356 I don't think she wants to. Well, she certainly doesn't want to talk to me about 00:34:45.356 --> 00:34:49.116 it because I think talking to me and you know, look, if you're my friend and 00:34:49.116 --> 00:34:53.676 you're going to talk to me about it, you're you're gonna get the answers you don't wanna hear. 00:34:54.696 --> 00:34:58.176 So yeah, it is like, it takes something to face that. 00:34:58.296 --> 00:35:03.056 I just don't want people to feel like, okay, well I have to decide now, right? 00:35:03.196 --> 00:35:09.136 Like you can still read the book and get the information that you need and decide 00:35:09.136 --> 00:35:11.156 when you're ready and that's okay. 00:35:11.456 --> 00:35:14.516 It's absolutely okay and this isn't me just trying to pitch your book but I 00:35:14.516 --> 00:35:18.556 feel like it really does have so many things that I know as a marriage therapist 00:35:18.556 --> 00:35:22.916 dealing with this population that is on this invisible checklist in people's 00:35:22.916 --> 00:35:25.696 minds that you even have some of the things that they haven't even thought of 00:35:25.696 --> 00:35:28.436 yet that they're going to think of. So I love that you have that. 00:35:28.716 --> 00:35:32.476 Tell me, I would love you, you can validate this or you can please poke holes in it. 00:35:32.596 --> 00:35:36.756 But I've been working with this concept in my mind called, I need to spend more 00:35:36.756 --> 00:35:39.696 time with chat GPT figuring out a more creative way to call this, 00:35:39.816 --> 00:35:40.976 but leading indicators. 00:35:41.316 --> 00:35:44.456 And all I mean by that is like, I think about that if somebody is at the point 00:35:44.456 --> 00:35:46.676 where they're buying the book, yeah, they kind of know. 00:35:46.676 --> 00:35:51.976 And I thought about this when I have a thriving women's private Facebook group 00:35:51.976 --> 00:35:55.356 for women who are in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic 00:35:55.356 --> 00:35:59.016 fill in the blank, whether it's a spouse, a parent, whatever that looks like. 00:35:59.176 --> 00:36:02.756 And I've got a men's group coming soon. But in that, sometimes I think, 00:36:02.876 --> 00:36:07.096 OK, if the person was listening to just some guy's podcast and they connected 00:36:07.096 --> 00:36:08.216 with it enough to reach out, 00:36:08.376 --> 00:36:11.736 to then get to be part of the Facebook group, to then go on the call every other 00:36:11.736 --> 00:36:16.436 week, to then ask if I think that their marriage might work, 00:36:16.976 --> 00:36:21.436 I kind of feel like, I think we've got a lot of data that is. That's right. Right? 00:36:22.436 --> 00:36:28.336 Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, if you're in a really healthy and happy relationship, 00:36:28.336 --> 00:36:32.936 you are not Googling narcissism, emotional immaturity, 00:36:33.576 --> 00:36:37.496 who's that woman who was talking about that thing, right? 00:36:37.836 --> 00:36:42.256 Like, should I stay or should I go? Nobody in healthy, happy relationships are 00:36:42.256 --> 00:36:43.536 asking these questions. 00:36:44.456 --> 00:36:50.316 So we have, we at least have that data set, like that data point, which is. 00:36:51.350 --> 00:36:56.070 Tremendous. It is. Now, that still, I still feel like, and I want anybody hearing that to know, 00:36:56.430 --> 00:36:59.890 but if you still need to reach out to the guy or buy Kate's book or, 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:04.350 please do, accept that because that is part of the process because that's the 00:37:04.350 --> 00:37:08.410 stuff I think people don't know that they don't know is you do need to go through 00:37:08.410 --> 00:37:12.050 this or else you will wonder if I did it too soon. And that's where when somebody 00:37:12.050 --> 00:37:13.090 says, well, what do you think? 00:37:13.490 --> 00:37:16.850 I say lovingly, oh, I don't want that power. 00:37:16.930 --> 00:37:20.450 And I want to help you have that power because I don't want it to ever be a 00:37:20.450 --> 00:37:22.350 thing where you were saying, well, that therapist said. 00:37:22.710 --> 00:37:25.790 Right, right, right. And that's why I'm a coach, not a therapist. 00:37:26.890 --> 00:37:31.890 I'm pointing them to Kate, that's right, go ahead. I am very direct. 00:37:32.030 --> 00:37:34.450 I am lovingly direct, right? 00:37:34.730 --> 00:37:39.030 Like, you know, I tell it like it is. I tell it like it is, but I try to do so kindly. 00:37:40.010 --> 00:37:45.710 Because I do think sometimes they do need to hear, like, that behavior's actually not okay. 00:37:46.510 --> 00:37:50.750 And, you know, we call that abuse, you know? 00:37:50.750 --> 00:37:54.970 Can I tell you, this is why we have to be even better best friends is that I 00:37:54.970 --> 00:37:58.990 know, and I'm going to be a little bit jokey, but I know that a lot of therapists do have, 00:37:59.450 --> 00:38:03.470 we're supposed to not really appreciate coaches because we have our egos and 00:38:03.470 --> 00:38:08.150 we went to the grad school or whatever, but man, I am so aware of what you're 00:38:08.150 --> 00:38:09.550 saying there, where it's, 00:38:09.770 --> 00:38:14.030 it is hard for me to want to tell somebody do this because it goes against my 00:38:14.030 --> 00:38:17.410 nature, but I really feel like I'm so grateful to be the person that gets to 00:38:17.410 --> 00:38:20.230 be there beside the person going through their experience. 00:38:20.230 --> 00:38:23.490 Having them get to these certain places, but then when they say, what should I do? 00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:26.150 That's where I do feel like I want to say, can you give Kate a call? 00:38:26.390 --> 00:38:30.730 And then I say that, then I'm still here for if the person can't do that, 00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:33.870 or if they try to do that and then they can't, then I want to be that person 00:38:33.870 --> 00:38:35.250 that says, tell me what that was like. 00:38:35.350 --> 00:38:39.410 And we can figure out why you're still struggling to do that. 00:38:39.470 --> 00:38:43.810 But I appreciate the work that you do so much because we do need a mix of both. 00:38:44.830 --> 00:38:49.490 Absolutely. And I so appreciate you saying that because I do think, 00:38:49.490 --> 00:38:55.370 I think that barrier between therapists and coaches is really starting to come down. Yeah, I think so. 00:38:56.230 --> 00:39:01.270 Yeah. And the more coaches that, the fewer coaches that are just, 00:39:01.410 --> 00:39:05.570 I'm a life coach now because I went through something as opposed to like people 00:39:05.570 --> 00:39:09.410 who actually get training and take it seriously, the better. 00:39:09.630 --> 00:39:10.930 And I do think it's shifting. 00:39:11.410 --> 00:39:16.190 Yeah. And I, you know, my favorite clients are my clients who come to me and 00:39:16.190 --> 00:39:18.790 say, listen, and I've been in therapy for a really long time and I get it. 00:39:18.910 --> 00:39:23.650 I understand the history, the pathology, the blah, blah, blah, 00:39:23.750 --> 00:39:25.190 blah, blah. I just need to know what to do. 00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:28.630 Now I don't know what to do. And I need some more direction. 00:39:29.138 --> 00:39:33.818 And those are my favorite clients because they've actually worked with a good 00:39:33.818 --> 00:39:39.198 therapist who has brought them to the place of, okay, now we have to figure out some decisions. 00:39:40.058 --> 00:39:44.938 Yeah, I love it because from my chair, I can see two people that seem somewhat 00:39:44.938 --> 00:39:48.138 similar, although there's so many things that go into each one of our experiences, 00:39:48.438 --> 00:39:51.938 but where somebody will then get to a point where then now they do take action 00:39:51.938 --> 00:39:55.218 and another person get to that point and they are just paralyzed. 00:39:55.218 --> 00:40:00.578 And that is really difficult because it can look the same from where I'm at right up to that point. 00:40:01.018 --> 00:40:04.158 And then, you know, there's more there and that's where I feel like sometimes 00:40:04.158 --> 00:40:05.358 they need a little bit of a push. 00:40:05.958 --> 00:40:08.978 Hey, I know I can just keep talking to you. I wanna get to one point in particular 00:40:08.978 --> 00:40:14.038 about you laid out so well, should you stay in your marriage for your kids? 00:40:14.118 --> 00:40:16.618 And I think that's one that a lot of people don't want to address. 00:40:16.778 --> 00:40:20.758 And when I got the Spotify rap as it tells us about our podcast over the year, 00:40:21.098 --> 00:40:25.738 I was actually surprised that my most listened to and shared episode was one 00:40:25.738 --> 00:40:27.398 about co-parenting with a narcissist, 00:40:28.058 --> 00:40:31.318 and where I did some stuff that I just felt passionate about, 00:40:31.478 --> 00:40:34.038 that kids get their sense of self from external validation. 00:40:34.458 --> 00:40:38.358 So if the kid is in the relationship trying to read the room and manage, 00:40:38.558 --> 00:40:44.458 are mom and dad okay or what do I do here, versus if mom is out and being healthy 00:40:44.458 --> 00:40:46.058 and dad is not in this scenario, 00:40:46.518 --> 00:40:50.098 then they're going to be far better off because they will have this opportunity 00:40:50.098 --> 00:40:54.378 to really get the validation and feel heard and seen, at least by one parent. 00:40:54.638 --> 00:40:58.978 But I thought you laid out so much good data there. Can you just go on your 00:40:58.978 --> 00:41:02.258 train of thought about laying out what you see in that chapter? 00:41:03.095 --> 00:41:07.875 Yeah, I mean, that's a great I think what you said is really is really so spot 00:41:07.875 --> 00:41:11.715 on is that, you know, we think that we're hiding it from our kids. 00:41:12.515 --> 00:41:19.475 We're so not, we're so not, even if it's really covert, and you're quiet about 00:41:19.475 --> 00:41:21.575 it, right? Kids are so intuitive. 00:41:22.075 --> 00:41:26.095 They are, they are little balls of energy absorbers. 00:41:26.375 --> 00:41:29.595 And they, they, you know, they know something's wrong. 00:41:29.595 --> 00:41:35.195 And when kids know there's something wrong and no one is naming the thing, 00:41:35.715 --> 00:41:41.995 it is so damaging to their sense of reality that we're gaslighting them is what we're doing. 00:41:42.315 --> 00:41:45.775 And they start to question their own reality and their own experience. 00:41:46.215 --> 00:41:51.035 And so that's really dangerous and damaging to them. I hear it all the time. 00:41:51.615 --> 00:41:55.235 We're staying for the kids. I'm staying for the kids. And one of the things 00:41:55.235 --> 00:42:02.755 I hear a lot is that you be they're staying for the kids because one of the parents is toxic. 00:42:03.675 --> 00:42:08.655 And they're worried about their ability to parent or not abuse the children. 00:42:09.035 --> 00:42:12.855 If Look, if there's physical abuse, it's a whole, you know, it's a whole thing. 00:42:13.075 --> 00:42:15.355 So right, that's, that's an that's a separate issue. 00:42:15.715 --> 00:42:19.715 Unfortunately, the family court system does not acknowledge emotional abuse 00:42:19.715 --> 00:42:22.335 as being a And very often, 00:42:22.535 --> 00:42:28.315 they don't consider physical abuse to be an issue, because if they abused you, 00:42:28.455 --> 00:42:31.155 they've never abused the kids, so the kids should be fine. 00:42:31.575 --> 00:42:35.375 Like literally has led to the death of many children. 00:42:36.075 --> 00:42:41.295 But all of that aside, if they're like, he just yells a lot, 00:42:41.335 --> 00:42:46.075 and he has a lot of an anger problem and a lot of rage, and so I run interference, 00:42:46.455 --> 00:42:49.335 and I run in, I protect, and all of that. 00:42:49.335 --> 00:42:54.055 And, you know, my response to that is you're not protecting them. 00:42:54.895 --> 00:43:00.155 What you're doing is you are, first of all, keeping them in that 100% of the time. 00:43:00.655 --> 00:43:06.275 And any interference that you run, you're really condoning it. You're still there. 00:43:06.903 --> 00:43:11.343 You're saying I know it's not okay that daddy yells and I'm so sorry and yada 00:43:11.343 --> 00:43:15.263 yada yada, but you're still there Yeah, so it's really okay that daddy yells 00:43:15.263 --> 00:43:18.143 and so if it's really not okay. 00:43:19.203 --> 00:43:27.403 Getting yourself out even if your kids are have to be in that toxicity for half of the time, 00:43:29.043 --> 00:43:35.863 They will be safe They will be emotionally nurtured They will have all of all 00:43:35.863 --> 00:43:39.823 of the every all the energy that you don't have when you're in it. 00:43:39.943 --> 00:43:45.563 Yeah, right You don't have that energy You're gonna give it to them 50% of the 00:43:45.563 --> 00:43:50.563 time even if it's only 50% of the time and you're giving your kids the gift 00:43:50.563 --> 00:43:53.123 of perspective Yeah, right. 00:43:53.143 --> 00:43:59.423 You're giving them the ability to say Oh, I feel this way with mom and I feel this way with dad. 00:43:59.603 --> 00:44:07.363 Oh that they're right there. Yes, right. I I now know what it feels like to feel safe. Yeah. 00:44:08.063 --> 00:44:13.563 That's so well said. They're in it all the time, right? They don't know what it is to feel safe. Yeah. 00:44:13.883 --> 00:44:20.923 And so, you know, we know that most of us enter into relationships that are 00:44:20.923 --> 00:44:23.523 similar to the ones that were modeled to us as children. 00:44:23.863 --> 00:44:27.283 So really, what is the model? 00:44:27.403 --> 00:44:32.303 What is the relational blueprint that you want to hand your children? it. Yeah. 00:44:32.823 --> 00:44:37.063 Well, and the way you just said that Kate is so, that was so well said that 00:44:37.063 --> 00:44:40.103 now I want to make jokes of course and say that I may even then cut that out 00:44:40.103 --> 00:44:44.003 and say it myself and say that, you know, and I told Kate, but we lost this 00:44:44.003 --> 00:44:46.143 part of the interview, but no, that was, that was so good. 00:44:46.323 --> 00:44:49.683 But because I, but I like what you're saying, because I feel like, 00:44:49.823 --> 00:44:52.763 and I'll give you just an example and it happened to be opposite. 00:44:52.923 --> 00:44:55.823 It was the mom who was more narcissistic and the dad who was, 00:44:56.003 --> 00:45:00.423 was more pathologically kind, but where we really saw it was when he would then 00:45:00.423 --> 00:45:04.343 drop off the kids to go see mom, then her energy was, I mean, 00:45:04.383 --> 00:45:05.963 she's going to make sure she is angry. 00:45:06.263 --> 00:45:09.403 And she is and then she goes to sadness, and she's going to be upset. 00:45:09.743 --> 00:45:14.723 And so the kids again, sense of self is about I need to now caretake and manage mom. 00:45:15.043 --> 00:45:17.943 And then when working with the guy when they would come see him, 00:45:18.163 --> 00:45:19.663 he is so excited to see them. 00:45:19.763 --> 00:45:23.343 I am so grateful to see you guys, you know, would tell me what what's going 00:45:23.343 --> 00:45:24.523 on? What can we do together? 00:45:24.623 --> 00:45:28.863 How can I and I felt like that alone shows that it is now they get this. 00:45:29.323 --> 00:45:33.123 Wow, what are they going to feel they're going to absolutely move toward that 00:45:33.123 --> 00:45:39.823 father's experience of validation versus I have to caretake my mom and I think they will learn more of, 00:45:40.183 --> 00:45:43.883 okay, I'm going to thrive with in this scenario dad or in this scenario with 00:45:43.883 --> 00:45:47.263 you and then they're going to learn a surface level relationship in essence 00:45:47.263 --> 00:45:51.423 or maybe a more transactional relationship with the narcissistic parent and 00:45:51.423 --> 00:45:56.663 I'm not saying that what a cool thing but I mean but at least they have the other option as well. 00:45:57.203 --> 00:46:00.943 Right, exactly. And there may be a period of time where, you know, 00:46:01.003 --> 00:46:05.363 the unfortunate part is when children... 00:46:05.877 --> 00:46:14.637 Choose the more narcissistic parent over The other one out of because they know 00:46:14.637 --> 00:46:17.197 that the other parents love is unconditional. 00:46:17.797 --> 00:46:22.617 Yeah, and yes yes, whose love is conditional and so they're gonna they may play 00:46:22.617 --> 00:46:26.757 into that because They don't want to lose their mom, right? 00:46:26.817 --> 00:46:30.877 And so right like they know the safe parent They don't have to work that hard 00:46:30.877 --> 00:46:37.337 And if mom is saying you have to choose between us, they may choose the mom for a period of time. 00:46:38.117 --> 00:46:42.177 And this is this is what it's, you know, my friend, Dr. Christine Cochiola calls 00:46:42.177 --> 00:46:43.477 being the protective parent. 00:46:43.937 --> 00:46:50.257 And the protective parent is the one who is often distanced from. 00:46:50.977 --> 00:46:56.137 And it's, you know, it's so painful, and it's so awful. But what I say to people 00:46:56.137 --> 00:46:57.857 is that this is a long game. Yeah. 00:46:59.997 --> 00:47:04.437 Eventually, eventually your kids will figure this out. They do. They really do. 00:47:05.317 --> 00:47:08.637 They do. And it might take a long time, and it's going to be the most painful, 00:47:08.877 --> 00:47:11.557 painful period of your life. It's really easy for me to say that. 00:47:11.697 --> 00:47:12.857 I have not experienced that. 00:47:13.657 --> 00:47:19.157 And I have seen it happen, and I've seen children start to get that dawning 00:47:19.157 --> 00:47:26.717 realization of, wait a minute, everything that mom is saying about dad's not true. Yeah. 00:47:27.537 --> 00:47:30.977 And mom has never, dad has never said a negative thing about mom. 00:47:31.697 --> 00:47:36.637 Yeah. Right? Where do I feel safe? And I think that part is so good because 00:47:36.637 --> 00:47:40.137 I think the people that you're talking with, your clients or my clients or people 00:47:40.137 --> 00:47:44.737 that are going to read the book or take a course or I will say back to those leading indicators, 00:47:45.057 --> 00:47:49.317 they're there because they were trying to figure out how to survive in the relationship 00:47:49.317 --> 00:47:51.237 or to change the dynamics of the relationship. 00:47:51.237 --> 00:47:56.177 So if they continue on that path of healing, then they learn to just start to 00:47:56.177 --> 00:47:57.997 be more emotionally consistent and safe. 00:47:58.237 --> 00:48:00.617 And that's where I feel like, oh, it will work. 00:48:01.117 --> 00:48:05.757 I'm with you. It's not that I can't say every single time, 100% of the time, always. 00:48:05.937 --> 00:48:09.617 But boy, my experience shows that the person that is in there trying to figure 00:48:09.617 --> 00:48:13.397 it out will figure it out, and then they will thrive and grow. 00:48:13.837 --> 00:48:16.817 And that will be the safety for the kids. 00:48:17.977 --> 00:48:22.157 I 100% agree with that. Absolutely. And I'm glad that that's that you see that 00:48:22.157 --> 00:48:26.497 too in your practice because I only have my experience to go by. 00:48:26.637 --> 00:48:30.477 So, you know, I think that's, I think it's really, it's really important that 00:48:30.477 --> 00:48:31.777 people know that, you know. 00:48:32.929 --> 00:48:37.349 It is a danger, but it's also, it's also hopefully not forever. 00:48:37.669 --> 00:48:39.469 Yeah. I was going to joke because I know we only have a few minutes. 00:48:39.629 --> 00:48:41.709 And first of all, will you come back on again? Can we do like, 00:48:41.789 --> 00:48:42.709 can we do a two-parter? Okay. 00:48:42.969 --> 00:48:46.449 Um, and because I was going to speed round. Okay. Um, is it them or is it me? 00:48:46.489 --> 00:48:48.429 It's them next up? You know, I was going to do it. 00:48:48.989 --> 00:48:53.569 But if you, if you, if you had, you know, if we got five more minutes to just 00:48:53.569 --> 00:48:56.309 today, which I'm so sorry, I should have scheduled two hours because this, 00:48:56.469 --> 00:48:58.069 I should have known this was going to be a blast. 00:48:58.509 --> 00:49:02.429 But, um, but what did we not cover that you are, you just would love for somebody 00:49:02.429 --> 00:49:04.409 to hear and understand. Oh, wow. 00:49:04.849 --> 00:49:08.969 That's such a that's such a great question. Oh, my gosh. I don't know, Tony. 00:49:09.529 --> 00:49:12.889 What did I write? What do I write in my book? I don't remember. 00:49:13.229 --> 00:49:16.029 Okay, well, I mean, there's okay, but got a couple of things written down here. 00:49:16.029 --> 00:49:21.009 And I do feel like there's the I don't even know who I am anymore was you nail 00:49:21.009 --> 00:49:24.029 that because I'm a huge fan of for me, it's the acceptance and commitment therapy, 00:49:24.029 --> 00:49:25.949 and it's figuring out your values. 00:49:25.949 --> 00:49:30.049 And I think that is one of values and boundaries and self care because I've 00:49:30.049 --> 00:49:33.089 got my rules of raise your emotional baseline, self-care is not selfish, 00:49:33.369 --> 00:49:37.009 PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations, set boundaries and 00:49:37.009 --> 00:49:39.409 know that those are going to be a challenge. You nail it. 00:49:39.749 --> 00:49:43.869 As a matter of fact, I'm not going to lie, do you want to hear my ego and my narcissism in here? 00:49:44.029 --> 00:49:47.969 When I got your book, when I got the PDF, I was like, command F and I'm all, 00:49:48.249 --> 00:49:50.529 Tony, let's see, did Kate mention me? 00:49:53.009 --> 00:49:56.049 I really wish I could say that. I love you. 00:49:58.309 --> 00:50:02.049 But that's probably in the follow-up book, right? All the stuff about me? 00:50:02.509 --> 00:50:05.029 Okay, yeah. All the stuff about Tony Overbay is Tony, yes, for sure. 00:50:05.029 --> 00:50:06.649 Or did the publisher cut it out? 00:50:06.769 --> 00:50:09.769 And that's probably really frustrating for you. It's on the cutting room floor, 00:50:09.949 --> 00:50:10.749 I know. It wasn't really? 00:50:11.229 --> 00:50:15.109 I know. I really actually think that I wrote it, I wrote most of this book before 00:50:15.109 --> 00:50:18.209 I met you, I will say. That is fair, that is okay. 00:50:18.529 --> 00:50:21.489 But the self-care stuff alone that you have is really good. 00:50:21.589 --> 00:50:23.869 And there's another part in there where you're talking about permission. 00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:28.609 And, and I think that that one's just a really important talk about that. Yes. 00:50:29.089 --> 00:50:31.069 Yes. Thank you. That is an important piece. 00:50:31.589 --> 00:50:34.229 Um, you know, I want women to know. 00:50:34.829 --> 00:50:41.309 That they deserve to be happy. I think I quote Mary Oliver in there, 00:50:41.589 --> 00:50:45.949 like, you know, this is your one wild and precious life. 00:50:46.449 --> 00:50:55.729 And we don't have time to be wasting on trying to beg people to love us, right? 00:50:56.549 --> 00:51:02.409 And I feel like I just, I want women to, it is a radical notion for women that 00:51:02.409 --> 00:51:09.529 we get to choose, right? We wait for boys to ask us to dance at the school dance. 00:51:09.689 --> 00:51:12.209 We wait for boys to ask us on dates. 00:51:12.529 --> 00:51:15.369 We wait for men to propose to us. 00:51:15.829 --> 00:51:19.609 We are always waiting to be chosen. 00:51:21.209 --> 00:51:27.669 And so the idea that we get to choose something like this is really radical. Yeah. 00:51:27.949 --> 00:51:31.069 But we do, because this is our life too. 00:51:31.729 --> 00:51:34.969 This is our children's lives as well. 00:51:36.069 --> 00:51:42.429 And so I want, you know, I do the permission pieces in the introduction because 00:51:42.429 --> 00:51:46.889 I want women to know that I want to grant them permission. 00:51:47.289 --> 00:51:50.909 Yeah. That it's okay to read this book. It's okay to make this decision. 00:51:51.109 --> 00:52:00.629 It's okay to not choose right away, but it is vital that you believe that you deserve to be happy too. 00:52:01.309 --> 00:52:07.829 Yeah, I love it. Right, and that you're living your authentic truth in your life. 00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:12.609 Well, we don't know what we don't know in good marriage therapy when people get it. 00:52:12.649 --> 00:52:15.109 I mean, you're learning to be two autonomous, interdependent, 00:52:15.229 --> 00:52:18.969 differentiated people, and that's so scary for the emotionally immature person 00:52:18.969 --> 00:52:21.989 because they feel like I'm gonna lose control of this person. 00:52:22.629 --> 00:52:27.009 And, but when you're two amazing human beings, now you're having these shared 00:52:27.009 --> 00:52:28.969 experiences and looking at things with curiosity. 00:52:29.389 --> 00:52:32.969 And I think that's a version of a relationship that people have no idea what 00:52:32.969 --> 00:52:35.469 that looks like. But that is what one deserves. 00:52:36.477 --> 00:52:41.237 That's right. And, you know, control has no place in a relationship. 00:52:41.877 --> 00:52:45.097 No. Watch me quote myself. Are you ready for this one? There you go. 00:52:45.237 --> 00:52:48.617 Yes. I often say you can't have love or control in an adult relationship, 00:52:49.077 --> 00:52:50.897 both. See, I didn't even quote myself right. 00:52:51.237 --> 00:52:55.237 I often say you can't have both love and... Wait, I don't remember what I say. 00:52:55.377 --> 00:52:57.997 Something about love and control, Kate. Yeah, I think... 00:52:59.397 --> 00:53:03.557 One of them. Choose one of them. Choose one. Either love or control. 00:53:03.857 --> 00:53:08.617 That's right. Yeah. That's right. No, I agree with you, whatever it is that you say. I agree. 00:53:09.517 --> 00:53:12.097 Okay. Okay. I have to say this. I have to say this too. You have a part where 00:53:12.097 --> 00:53:14.477 I could, I just wish I was there when you were writing this one out, 00:53:14.517 --> 00:53:16.517 but it's this list of other things that are not your job. 00:53:17.057 --> 00:53:19.897 Pack him for him when he goes on his trips. Create the to-do list for him. 00:53:19.937 --> 00:53:22.977 And I love this one. To force him to go to therapy. That is not your job. 00:53:23.117 --> 00:53:26.657 And that's the original leading indicator that led me to think about the concepts 00:53:26.657 --> 00:53:30.857 of leading indicators was when somebody said he finally agreed to go to therapy 00:53:30.857 --> 00:53:34.457 after I basically forced him. And I'm saying, Yeah, that doesn't work. 00:53:34.737 --> 00:53:37.997 He has to want to. I mean, you've got so many there, though, 00:53:38.057 --> 00:53:39.577 that there's so many there that are so good. 00:53:39.937 --> 00:53:42.217 Yes, you sanitized it, but it is not. 00:53:44.357 --> 00:53:47.817 I already have to click the explicit thing. I should let you to like read the list. 00:53:48.757 --> 00:53:51.617 It's so good. No, it's all right. We'll keep it clean. But yes, 00:53:51.637 --> 00:53:54.537 there are so many things that are not your job that women do, right? 00:53:54.557 --> 00:53:57.837 This is why we're so exhausted in our marriages that we're constantly doing 00:53:57.837 --> 00:54:00.417 all this work. We're doing extra stuff. We're doing taking. 00:54:01.257 --> 00:54:06.757 I mean, come on. Right. These are you are two grownups. 00:54:07.057 --> 00:54:10.557 You're too grown ass humans. There we go. 00:54:10.917 --> 00:54:14.817 Right. And you guys. Sorry, did I just make it explicit? No, 00:54:14.857 --> 00:54:16.377 we already did. You already did. Yeah, 00:54:21.357 --> 00:54:24.517 like you're too grown ass humans. And so the idea that 00:54:24.954 --> 00:54:30.054 I have to pack his lunch for him when he for when he goes to work or if I go 00:54:30.054 --> 00:54:34.014 on a girl's trip that I have to make sure that I have six casseroles in the 00:54:34.014 --> 00:54:36.954 in the freezer for him. Come on. 00:54:37.854 --> 00:54:40.594 Okay, while we're on there you have one it's not your job to be attractive enough 00:54:40.594 --> 00:54:44.434 to keep him from straying to dye your hair, get a boob job, cut your hair, 00:54:44.594 --> 00:54:48.274 lose weight, gain weight, exercise in order to be enough for him or to be his 00:54:48.274 --> 00:54:50.894 mother or to keep a schedule or to heal. I mean it's so good. 00:54:51.194 --> 00:54:53.634 That just, that's Kate right there. 00:54:54.914 --> 00:55:01.134 That's my manifesto. Yes. I agree. Kate Anthony, will you please come on again? 00:55:01.994 --> 00:55:04.814 I would love to. Okay, I can't believe we just went 15 minutes. 00:55:05.054 --> 00:55:07.794 Okay. And so then where can people buy the book? I'll have a link to it. 00:55:08.094 --> 00:55:11.434 And, but I think this is honestly, and I'm not just saying this because I just 00:55:11.434 --> 00:55:15.054 dig you, but therapists need this in their office, because there are times where 00:55:15.054 --> 00:55:18.214 then I'm sitting there saying, Okay, oh, what would that look like if you do 00:55:18.214 --> 00:55:20.114 schedule the free consultation with the attorney? 00:55:20.194 --> 00:55:23.334 Well, I don't want to that's too scary and I'd like this is where a 00:55:23.334 --> 00:55:26.034 therapist needs to say just read this I mean that would 00:55:26.034 --> 00:55:28.794 be a really helpful thing would love therapists to have 00:55:28.794 --> 00:55:31.674 a stack of this book in their office because that is 00:55:31.674 --> 00:55:34.594 absolutely right I think there comes a point in therapy 00:55:34.594 --> 00:55:38.134 where you can just sort of slide the book and then you know your your hands 00:55:38.134 --> 00:55:43.714 are clean for sure but absolutely so it's everything is on my website it's Kate 00:55:43.714 --> 00:55:49.674 Anthony calm there's a page on my website where you can I have ideas for how 00:55:49.674 --> 00:55:52.854 to buy it kind of on the DL because we've got, 00:55:53.174 --> 00:55:56.454 you know, this is not the kind of thing you want necessarily showing up in your share. 00:55:56.634 --> 00:55:59.674 Yes, I'm glad you said that. Yeah. Okay. Right. So call. 00:56:00.314 --> 00:56:05.634 Yeah, on my website, there's a page that kateanthony.com slash D word that give 00:56:05.634 --> 00:56:08.774 you some ideas for that. I've also got a ton of bonuses for people. 00:56:08.974 --> 00:56:12.754 And yeah, everything else everything I do is on my website. So my podcast, 00:56:12.874 --> 00:56:18.074 which Tony's gonna come back on. which is the Divorce Survival Guide podcast. 00:56:18.614 --> 00:56:20.934 And you can find me on Instagram at the Divorce Survival Guide. 00:56:21.834 --> 00:56:25.594 Okay, what a joy. We will talk again soon. And then I would like, 00:56:25.714 --> 00:56:28.794 I'm gonna buy some from you and you must autograph one. 00:56:28.894 --> 00:56:31.494 I think that'd be really fun to have that. Okay, I want that. 00:56:32.054 --> 00:56:35.694 Absolutely, well, I would love it, yeah, of course. Now I wanna come down to 00:56:35.694 --> 00:56:38.814 LA and I wanna do an event together and I wanna do all these kinds of things, all right? 00:56:39.714 --> 00:56:43.554 Listen, I'm in. Okay, sounds good. Tony, I am so in. 00:56:44.494 --> 00:56:48.254 All right, Kate, thanks so much. I appreciate you coming on and then we'll talk 00:56:48.254 --> 00:56:50.634 again soon. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Thanks, Kate.