Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 100 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast and Love ADHD.
The Mind, The Mirror, Me, Murder on the Couch, and just please go check those
out as well as the Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer podcast
where a lot of the proceeds there go to help people that are in relationships
with emotionally immature people and helping them get all sorts of help.
Sign up for my newsletter as well.
You can go to the show notes and you will see a link tree or go to tonyoverbay.com.
A lot of new things are coming up, especially in the new year as 2024 comes
around, updated magnetic marriage course.
And I'm putting together some content specifically around navigating faith journeys,
faith crisis, and I would appreciate your stories, especially if you felt like
you are waking up to maybe even your own spirituality in your relationships.
And what that's been like is you've expressed your thoughts or your opinions, or you name it.
And you can send those to contact or info at tonyoverbay.com or just through the website.
So let's talk about today's episode. I say I'm excited about all of them,
but this one, it is a very special interview.
I had the privilege of sitting down with who I would, I would call a friend,
Kate Anthony, who I'm just blown away to even be able to have the privilege
of talking with Kate or interacting with Kate.
I've been a guest on her podcast, but she's a renowned divorce coach and the
author of a new book, the d-word making the ultimate decision about your marriage
and honestly this conversation is,
cliched but it's an eye-opener for anybody who has found themselves or is currently.
At a crossroads in their relationship, especially those who are dealing with
the complexities of narcissism and emotional immaturity.
And so before we even get to the heart of the interview, maybe I will set the stage.
I think so often people just feel like everything must look perfect from the outside.
Maybe they have a nice career or their spouse does and their kids look great
and they have a home and they are even the envy of their friends,
but inside they are struggling. That is a completely different story.
That's so many of the stories that I get.
And you may be feeling the weight of a marriage that is anything but fulfilling.
And even to the point of being toxic.
And remember, I am a marriage and family therapist. I'm in the let's help people business.
And so this is not something that I take lightly because my four pillars of
a connected conversation, the things I talk about, that we don't know what we
don't know, and if people have the right tools and it gives them a chance.
But there are people that are so emotionally immature or stunted or narcissistic
that then even the act of trying to then get these new tools and use them becomes
even more of an attack surface for the person that is now going to take those
tools and weaponize them.
Because that leaves so many people feeling like, am I the problem?
And is it supposed to be this difficult even when we've gone to therapy or I'm
reading the books or I'm getting the tools?
And these are the questions that so many people, and
today we're gonna talk especially about women grapple with
and primarily they do so in silence and so
that's what Kate addresses with her work and
I think it's it's a pretty incredible book as a resource that
just has everything that you maybe have
asked yourself and then a lot of things that you didn't know that you
didn't know are in her book and a little about Kate she's a certified Kate is
certified as a domestic violence victims advocate by the state of California
she's a co-parenting specialist by the Moston Guthrie Academy and as a high
conflict divorce coach by Tina Swithin's High Conflict Divorce Coaching Certification Program,
she's been through it. She knows what she's talking about.
And throughout our conversation we explore a lot of topics.
We really spend time with that critical decision-making process
of whether to stay in or leave a marriage and i really feel like kate it brings
a lot of humor she brings understanding she brings experience and she's worked
with a lot of people and it's so it's a very unique perspective and not just
as a professional but then she really has walked the path herself.
Which I make the comment early in the interview that I have never been a woman
going through divorce so I can put out all the content I want and I know that
people are still going to say, yeah, but you don't know what you don't know.
And hopefully they don't add old man to that. But she shares her journey of
self-empowerment and the challenges that she faced and how she truly has emerged
so much stronger on the other side as she has found herself and her sense of purpose.
So, we do dig into a lot of topics like understanding the role of narcissism
or emotional immaturity in relationships.
We talk about the importance of establishing personal boundaries,
that's so important to do and difficult to do.
And really, the whole process of reclaiming your right to happiness.
And so, for a lot of people, I think this conversation is going to be more than
just informative, it can be a catalyst for change.
And we make it clear, I quote Kate herself in the interview from her book about,
she talks about sometimes that sitting on the fence, now the change that needs
to be made is to jump back in with full intent or to now take steps to leave.
But her insights are really empowering for women who are navigating these codependent
relationships because she talks about the how important it is to self-acknowledge
and and then that struggle of facing the truth about your marriage and about maybe where you're at.
Because then it ends up being about trying to find that courage to admit what's
really happening and then deciding what comes next, because that is a really
scary thing that we often want somebody else to tell us what to do.
And as a therapist, I, of course, try to share some anecdotes from my own experiences,
and I think they really fit well with Kate's expertise.
And we talk about the role
that I think is pretty significant that therapists and coaches
can play and there's I think I even talked about it on
a previous podcast where I was talking about what bad therapy
and bad coaching can do so I know that
there are coaches and Kate has a line in the interview
that I think says it so well that you know she's been through this
and she's been certified and she's been doing this for a long time and she
said she isn't just the coach who says
I think I'll be a life coach now because I did something and I
think that's really significant because she she knows what she's talking
about but we talked about the balance between
I as a therapist will never say this is what you need to do because how would
I know what it's like to be you so I know that can be a role of a coach but
even then it's still more of a muse to say well here's what I think is the right
thing to do and that person now can say okay do I feel that way or if I do now
I'm trying to take action on it and and it's really difficult for me,
and then in comes the therapist as well.
So it can be a really nice complimentary relationship.
But the bottom line is a lot of people who are in these unhealthy relationships
or marriages are there because they didn't have that secure attachment from
childhood. They don't have a sense of self.
So it makes sense that it would be incredibly difficult to take the steps to
leave, but then their own body or they're just dying inside.
And so there is aftermath after leaving an emotionally immature or narcissistic
relationship and Kate doesn't back away from that as well So a tiny bit about her background.
It's really fascinating She has spent her early years as an actor including
a stint on Sesame Street and Grey's Anatomy Now there is a the full gamut of
experience there and then she's had a lot of personal experiences of being in
a toxic marriage So her story really is,
it's a testament for the power of resilience and the importance of making decisions
that are right for you and we spend some time talking about.
Decisions that are right for your children. And I also want to take a real quick
minute to acknowledge, I think, something really important. So,
Kate's insights and experiences.
Today, we talk a lot about speaking to women, dealing with emotionally immature or narcissistic men.
But I know from my own practice that these dynamics are not gender exclusive.
Many men find themselves in similar situations, and they're struggling,
grappling with the decision of whether to stay with an emotionally immature
or narcissistic woman or to go.
And so that's where I just want to say, I see you, and I understand the unique
challenges that you face. But this book and our discussion today speaks to the
overarching difficulties of the decision-making process.
And I want to acknowledge also same-sex couples who are navigating these waters.
I mean, the emotional complexities, the pain, the journey toward a decision are universal.
And I feel like it's safe to say they transcend gender and sexual orientation.
I mean, because honestly, if you're a man in a relationship with an emotionally
immature woman, that carries its own set of challenges and stigma as it can
almost feel more embarrassing for the man. and he's not supposed to be able
to be taken advantage of.
Or I've worked with same-sex couples who are dealing with the challenges that
they're already facing a challenge of feeling like they are on their own.
And so then when trying to deal with an emotionally immature and narcissistic
partner, it can feel even more alone or isolated.
And that can even feel like the problem's more amplified. So to all my listeners,
regardless of your specific circumstance, stay tuned, sit back,
relax, you're not alone in this.
And while the context might predominantly feature a certain type of relationship,
it's safe to say the core message, the struggle of deciding what's best for
you, it's a you thing, and a challenging relationship is something that so many people can relate to.
You're the only one who truly knows what it's like to be you,
and I believe you will glean some powerful insights from the conversation that I have with Kate.
Now at the same time, there may also be moments of frustration,
given the context of some of the things that we discuss, but even that can be
an opportunity to self-confront and grow.
So hold on to the fact that this is a conversation about empowerment and understanding
and making the right choice for yourself, no matter who you are or whom you are with.
So whether you're taking a look at contemplating the future of your relationship
or trying to seek understanding and support or just curious about the complex
dynamics of divorce and narcissism, This is your episode.
With that said, let me get to my interview with Kate Anthony.
I was gonna have a hilarious joke that as we came into it, Kate,
I was gonna be saying something really funny. So we'd both be laughing.
I don't know what it is. And I forget the podcast goal that was spinning there
when I said we better hit record.
It was about my book. It was. And what's your book is amazing.
Oh, okay. Here's what, here's my true confession. Honestly, it's so good.
I had such an amazing time on your podcast and I couldn't wait to get you on
mine and I think we found out that your book was going to come out so I delayed
and then I thought, okay, it's going to think I was just.
Saying nice things about, I'll have you on mine, but I couldn't wait.
And then I get your book, and then it's really, really good.
And I mean that in that it's well-researched.
There's things about divorce and parenting that I can't wait to talk to you about.
But I just love your whole vibe of meeting the person where they're at,
and it's going to take as long as it's going to take.
And there's just so much good there. And at this point, I've already done an
incredible intro for you now.
And so and so then I just I just I had such a fun time on your podcast.
And so now I just want I want you to just take over.
Drive. Tell me about your book. So take it away.
So grateful. I mean, first of all, Tony, you know, I adore you.
So I'm, and you texted me last night, which was just the sweetest,
sweetest, sweetest thing.
It's just such a great, you know what I did, actually, I screenshot your text.
And I I started a folder in my album on my phone for nice things people say about my book.
Because I know that I'm going to get, people are going to hate it because that's life, right? Yeah.
And because I'm me, I'm going to get those reviews and what people say are going
to mean way more than the nice things that people say.
So I was like, okay, I'm going to start a little album so that I can just remember.
Oh, good. So you're the first you're the first screenshot in my little album. I hope I get more.
Okay Well, I'm honored because I really I sat down I meant to read it much sooner
and I was just going through it and I couldn't stop reading it and because you're
you're hilarious Anyway,
and I feel like it's such a good mix of it is so real and so raw and funny And
then as somebody that works in this space trying to help women But I've never
been a woman going through divorce.
And so I just feel like you speak to it.
So well Yeah, let's talk about it. Maybe tell my audience here,
tell us about you. Who are you, Kate? Okay.
Well, so my name is Kate Anthony. I have a podcast called the Divorce Survival
Guide Podcast that Tony has been a guest on and will probably be a few more
times if we can, if we can get it together. Oh yes. Yeah.
Um, we had a great time when you came on mine. Uh, and I, I am a divorce coach.
I am a certified, like my certifications are sort of, so I'm I'm certified as
an individual coach, as a relationship systems coach.
As a domestic violence victim's advocate, as a co-parenting specialist,
and as a high-conflict divorce goer.
Wow, okay. That's a lot of things. It's a lot.
It's a lot. I know. My book is called The D Word, Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage.
And my niche in this industry, really, is helping women make the really,
really, really hard decision of whether to stay or go.
That's really what my book is all about. It also walks through and talks about
the process of divorce because I think that people need to know like what to expect, right?
It's it's one thing to be like, yeah, I'm gonna leave but it's like well,
hold on a second What does that mean for my life?
Yeah, it's the kind of thing you need to have a lot of information about I'm
divorced Yes And even that part is amazing because I feel like the people that
are going through this and I always identify them the pathologically kind and
women that are in these relationships with emotionally immature,
maybe even narcissistic guys,
and they're in that human magnet syndrome and the trauma bond,
and so it can be such a process, and there's so much unknown,
and you talk about that so well,
and I think that fear of the unknown, you really help calm, I think,
a lot of the, what do I need to know?
Because a lot of times, the first person they go to is the emotionally immature
husband, who then, of course, tells them, oh yeah, you'll get nothing,
I will ruin you, the kids will never see you,
I will do this and this, And then all that maybe she needs to do to start is
go meet with somebody or something, who knows, but then that's the last thing he wants.
Yeah. So you got everything in there. You need, all you've got to do is get
yourself informed with actual knowledge, because the person who is emotionally
immature or is whatever, whatever it is, right.
When they're abusive, whatever they are, that's not the person you should be
getting your information.
No, right. because they're not exactly.
You know, their job in this, their purpose in this is not to help you make this decision.
It's to probably keep you from leaving.
And they'll probably say anything that they feel that they need to in order
to do that. So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So back to you and your background. So yeah, so you, the certifications and
you've been divorced and then... I have been divorced for 15 years.
I've, you know, and I've been through
it. I've through it back when I was struggling to make this decision.
We didn't have podcasts, we didn't have Instagram.
We weren't having these conversations out loud. I had no idea what I was dealing with.
Our couples therapist said, Kate, you're codependent, go away and read about
codependence and you know, learn about that.
And David, you are a narcissist, go ahead and read about that.
That's right. So we have the diagnosis.
To his credit, you know, my ex was like, Well, I looked it up on the internet.
And all I found was stuff about narcissistic personality disorder.
And I know I don't have that.
And the therapist said, You're right, you don't. And that was the last we ever talked about it. Oh.
Right. And, you know, and I never, I never looked it up. I never actually looked it up.
I was like, Oh, I'm codependent. So I will do that work.
And listen, I did that work, like with every fiber of my being.
And talk about that. What does that look like? Because I feel like that is the
the pathologically kind, the codependent, the eternally nice.
What did that look like the work you were doing?
Oh my God. Well, first of all, um, it was, I was, I had already been for five,
five years, I think at that. No, no.
It may be like seven years at that point. I had already been in,
um, a 12 step program for people like me.
So I had been doing that work, but I was like, okay, I'll return to like,
you know, and with motherhood and all of that, I wasn't going to meetings.
I I wasn't really, you know, up on it. So I did, I went back to meetings.
I read, of course, Melanie Beattie, now a codependent of mine,
which I don't think is the best book on codependence, to be honest.
I think the best book on codependence is Pia Melody's book, Facing Codependence.
I think that book is absolutely brilliant. I feel like I, I mean, what did I do?
I bent myself into more pretzels. Okay, I would've met, that was my guess.
That was my guess, yeah. Yeah.
Which is of course like the codependent thing to do, right? I was like, Oh, okay.
I'm codependent. So let me work extra hard at being better for him. Yeah.
Because I was, I was married to somebody who was hypercritical of me was there was nothing I could do.
I mean, I, Tony, he, he told me one time that he hated the sound of my voice.
Oh, okay. And I promptly lost my voice for four days.
I mean, no sound would come out. I didn't know what was happening. I was so terrified.
Wow. I didn't know what was happening. No sound would come out of my mouth until
someone said to me, he told you he hates the sound of your voice.
You are like psychologically, right? Yes.
Subconsciously, so desperate to be enough for this man that I literally lost my voice. Yeah.
Your body's trying to tell you something there. I mean, it really is. Geez, Louise, right?
You know, so he was so hypercritical of me.
And we would always get to this point where I would say, but you're mean to
me. But I feel like you want to program me like a robot.
And then he would say, well, if you just did this, right?
And then I would do that, I would work towards that. Or it was always,
no, no, you're right, you're right.
That's true. But you know, you have a part in this too.
And so, and then we would focus, you know, he would sort of cop to something,
just enough to get this, to change the subject away from him and back onto me.
Okay, and then by him saying the hip cop into anything, would you feel like, oh, okay, okay.
So there's movement there, or would that feel like he's taken ownership of a
little bit of something?
Yeah, he's really good at it looking like he's taking ownership.
But it took a long time. It took a while for me to be like...
And this is a man who was also in a 12-step program at that point,
had been for, I think, 15 years.
And so, right, I was like, you know, there's a difference between an apology and an amends.
If you keep apologizing without changing your behavior, you know,
I did get to the point where I was like, your apologies mean nothing.
But what I, you know, I was still trying convince him. I was still trying to
convince him to love me. Yeah.
Yeah. Convince him to choose me. And it wasn't until I got to the point where
I realized that I had to choose me and that he wasn't going to.
He wasn't. He really wasn't because he wasn't really capable,
but it was me. Yeah. Right?
It was me. Well, I think that part is so hard to, I get that question often
of what does that even mean?
And I think it is the part where if I'm still looking to that other person for
validation to tell me if I'm okay or the things I like, or,
and I look at that as that form of betrayal trauma even there,
where I'm handing my self over and saying, do you think this, there's truth in this?
And then you just handed that person buttons to push depending on however they
feel or what they need from you in that moment.
Yeah. Right. And it's a process, right? Like, because you get into the relationship
with all of the, you know, the sort of fake empathy and all the false connection
and all of that stuff, right?
And you get deeply entrenched and then it's like this whittling away of the promise.
And so we're just trying to get back to that, well, but, but this is what I
thought this was our foundation.
And it's really hard to wrap your head around the fact that what was sold to
you is not the foundation.
Yeah, yeah, actually. Yeah. Right.
And it's and it's devastating to have to accept that.
Well, I appreciate you saying except because I think that's all somebody can
do in that situation. But I know even that acceptance is quite a process because
we go through that whole what's wrong with me, I can figure it out.
It's it must be me if I just say this, and and how much how much time is spent
trying to figure out the relationship versus trying to just be and do and do
the things that matter to you.
And I think about that form of control that the narcissist has of just occupying
all of you, the inner landscape of your mind constantly. Did you find that was the case?
Oh, 100%. 100%. That's why, you know, in the book, people always say like,
Well, where do you start where you begin?
And that's why I begin the book with, we got to get back to you and who you
are, because you really do when you're in a relationship with a narcissist,
or someone who's abusing you, or whatever it is, whatever we,
you know, emotionally immature, whatever we want to call it, right?
When you're in a relationship with someone that is not relating to you equally,
and treating you with love and respect and as if they like you, or whatever, right?
When it feels like they're just trying to get something from you all the time
that you just can't give, because it's not your play, like you try,
right? It's like you're being siphoned.
It's like all of the energy and love is being siphoned out of you and nothing
is coming back in. And so you're kind of left so empty.
And you've been bending yourself into pretzels to try to figure out how you
can be better, how you can be different, right?
And so it's like, yeah, you lose yourself. You don't know, like,
I had no idea who I was anymore.
Well, and Kate, I think it's important to note too, you were a successful actress, right, at the time?
Is that the case? I mean, so, and I think this is where, when people see that,
they think, well, then you must have had yourself figured out or you must have, right? Sure.
Listen, listen, actors, we don't, we're the most fucked up.
We really, we don't know who we are. We don't know anything.
Okay. So was that that proverbial? I could go escape into these characters because
I didn't know who I was or.
Oh, sure. Yeah, totally. I mean, well, look, here's the thing, actually.
Yeah. Yes. Right. There is that escape into it. But also I think.
A really good actor is an observer and a studier of the human condition.
Oh, I see where we're going. Like really, like we study people.
And so I was so much better at creating characters because I was so focused on everybody else.
My codependency was like, my focus was always outward.
It was the me stuff that was missing.
But it didn't matter, right? Because I could create something entirely out of thin air.
And I was really good at it. I was really good at it.
What's interesting is that as soon as I decided to leave my marriage,
I also left the business, Okay, acting, the the entertainment industry, because as an actor,
you are the victim, it is an abusive relationship that actors have with the
entertainment industry.
We are the lowest on the totem pole, certainly in film and television.
You know, I'm in LA now I was raised in theater. That's not the case in theater
and theater. Actors are respected and revered.
In television, nobody gives a shit. It's like it's a factory.
And you go on an audition and you, you know, vomit your soul.
And then they say, okay, thanks. And you walk out the door and they never call
you. They don't tell you, hey, you know what? You were great.
Thank you for all that you put into that. We're gonna go a different direction.
So it's based on ghosting.
You know? Yeah. I never thought about that. That is a trauma bond.
Intermittent reinforcement, the punisher and they give you the reward comes from the same.
Wow. Right. And you're booking one out of every hundred auditions.
So the reward is one in a hundred. It's about the average.
And so, and then that reward is like glamor and money and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's done.
And then it's not like a corporate thing where you climb the ladder.
Like every time you get a job and the job is over, you're back at the bottom rung of the ladder.
Right. And so it is, it is this totally, it's a, it's a, just a mind bending experience.
I bet. As soon as I got out of my marriage, I was like, Oh wait,
I don't choose to be in these relationships anymore. Okay, I love that. In any of them. Yeah.
And that ended my 20-year relationship with my two best friends.
It ended my career. It ended my marriage. It ended my capacity to be victimized.
Yeah, okay. And can I speak to this? And this is where you can say,
I thought you read the book, Old Man, if you have a part in there that where
this part, what I'm about to ask, but if you do, I'll edit that part out.
I love what you're saying there because I find that there is a part,
because I work with a lot of women that are coming out of these relationships,
and they start to feel like everybody around them is emotionally immature or narcissistic.
And then they feel like, okay, then it must be me. And then I'm sitting there
saying, um, they kind of are because that I mean, I hate to say it,
but that, and I feel so bad saying it.
But if, if the, if the woman's in that position, in those relationships,
that then when she does, I love what you're saying, when you get out of the
marriage, then and the relationship with the career you were in,
I mean, and then the people around you.
And so all of a sudden this person will feel so alone, which is part of the
problem, but then they can actually find real connection, real friendships,
things that they didn't know even existed. Was that the case for you?
I mean, a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent. I literally just,
I just posted about this on Instagram the other day, actually,
because I, yeah, I didn't know who I was.
The friendships that I had were based, were really toxic.
They were all based on the premise of me being damaged and, you know,
and so that I could be controlled. Right.
And when I got out of my marriage, I just, it was like those things became so stark, right?
Like it was such a sharp contrast.
I was like, oh my God, I have chosen this in every aspect of my life.
And of course I did. I chose my husband. It was me choosing.
I did it for a reason. I have trauma from my childhood that just was like a
direct path to all of this, right?
And so when you choose to get off the path and get into some healing, then you are.
When those things that are still in your life, you don't think about that.
You're like, oh, I'm leaving my marriage, right? And then all of a sudden,
all these other things are like, ooh, that doesn't, that, wow,
that feels gross now, because it's not the air I breathe anymore.
And you start to see it all over the place, And then there is this weeding out
of, okay, I guess I have to say goodbye here.
And you think that your friends are going to be there for you and they're going to see you through.
And nine times out of 10, your friends have really messed up reactions to your divorce.
They're not there for you in the way you want them to be. And then usually it's
because of their own thing, but also because of the people that you have chosen.
Right. And so as soon as I I got out of that.
I was then able to forge some of the most beautiful friendships.
I mean, my friends, people comment on it all the time. They're like,
you have an incredible circle of friends. And yeah, I do.
Yeah. I do. I fostered that. I worked hard for that.
Yeah. And you know, I have friends who like last week texted me and they're
like, we wanna take you out to celebrate your book.
Like who does that? You know, and they took me out to this beautiful restaurant.
And then I had this other friend who was visiting from New Mexico,
who was staying an hour away, but she was in LA.
So she drove an hour to just come and say hi at this dinner.
Like, you know, that's, those are the kinds of relationships,
you know, that you get to have.
Well, when you say that too, I love it because that mean, I think that the people
that are good friends or good people are saying, Oh, I would have driven two hours, three hours.
But then when you've been in those relationships with emotionally immature,
well, there'll be a price to pay for that. Well, there's going to be a reciprocity
or do you remember how far I drove?
I mean, there's so many things that the strings attached, right?
A hundred percent, a hundred percent. That's exactly the relationship I had
with my best friend, that it was so like.
You know, there was all this scorekeeping and all of this tit for tat.
And well, I did this thing for you and you know, you're not grateful enough, you know?
And so it really is right now, like even 15 years later, when I have like real
genuine friends doing beautiful,
generous, selfless acts, I still get amazed that people are like that,
even though that's how I am as a friend.
I think there's this concept where when you, I got to do this for anybody watching on YouTube,
but if you're the narcissist here and you're here and then you get out of that
relationship and now here's this more normal person, all of a sudden you didn't
realize you become the a little more crazy one.
So when they say, Hey, I'm going to go hang out with my friends this weekend,
it's, Oh, what's your angle?
What's that supposed to mean? Well, I'm going to hang out with my friend.
It's kind of a period at the end of that, but that's where that the emotionally
mature can make one feel like, okay, I got to be on my guard. That's right.
Yeah. Hey, in your book, can I quote you? Have you had anybody do that?
Have you had? No. Okay, good.
Okay. Hey, let me quote you when you say Is this but this is so good though
I think it's when you said this book will lead you to a place of clarity where
you can make a truly informed empowered Decision,
but here's the thing my love which I love still Okay I need you to be ready
for that in order for you to get the most out of this book you need to be ready
for Answers and this is so good for many of us sitting and the in-between is
preferable to getting to a place of clarity In her book,
Untamed, Glennon Doyle calls this the choice between an uncomfortable truth and a comfortable lie.
You know, and this is again, my friend Kate Anthony, I'm quoting her directly,
you know you can't continue on like this, but for many,
the idea of finding out that they have to fully commit to their marriage or
fully commit to leaving their marriage means they no longer get to sit on a
fence that they've made their home. They no longer get to not know.
That's beautiful. I feel like you just encapsulated what I hear people say,
where at some point they say, I don't know if I'm ready. I don't want to know. That's right.
And what was that and how long of a process was that for you? Do you remember?
Oh, I do. I do. I was desperate. I was actually desperate to know.
And I kept asking people, my friends who had been divorced.
I mean, I asked everyone, I was like, you know, like, so how do you,
how do you, how do you know?
How do you know when it's, when you finally reach the end?
Right. Cause I think that we have this idea that there's like one more thing.
Yeah, for sure. Yes. Right. There's like, there's this one magic switch that
when we find it in the dark,
like we've been pounding the wall looking for it, but once we find it,
everything will change.
Yes. It's the one thing that, and if I choose now, I'm going to have lost the opportunity to find it.
Yeah. I won't have certainty and I'll always regret and I'll never know.
I need that certainty. That's right.
And so I was asking everyone, I was like, how do you know when you've searched that wall enough?
When you've hit all corners or you've done all the switches,
but like not that one. Like, how do you know when you've done them all?
And they, you know, and as I talk about in the book, my friend was like,
when you know, you'll know.
And I was like, that's not, but I don't know. Yeah.
When will I know? Yeah. How do I know? What's the process?
What do I need to do so that I know that I'm done and that it's okay?
And that's what I want this book to be. It's my antidote to you'll know when you know. Yeah.
And like I say, you may finish this book and you probably know.
So the thing is that the people who, the people who are like,
I'm not ready to know, they know.
They just don't want to know that they know, right? Oh, I know,
yes. Right, right. And that's okay.
But that's okay, right? It's totally okay. You know that.
Once you say it to one person, once you admit it to yourself and speak it to
one person, it's over. Yeah. Right?
You know, I have a friend who's going through this right now and she has not spoken to me.
Oh. Okay. She doesn't want to know.
I don't think she wants to. Well, she certainly doesn't want to talk to me about
it because I think talking to me and you know, look, if you're my friend and
you're going to talk to me about it, you're you're gonna get the answers you don't wanna hear.
So yeah, it is like, it takes something to face that.
I just don't want people to feel like, okay, well I have to decide now, right?
Like you can still read the book and get the information that you need and decide
when you're ready and that's okay.
It's absolutely okay and this isn't me just trying to pitch your book but I
feel like it really does have so many things that I know as a marriage therapist
dealing with this population that is on this invisible checklist in people's
minds that you even have some of the things that they haven't even thought of
yet that they're going to think of. So I love that you have that.
Tell me, I would love you, you can validate this or you can please poke holes in it.
But I've been working with this concept in my mind called, I need to spend more
time with chat GPT figuring out a more creative way to call this,
but leading indicators.
And all I mean by that is like, I think about that if somebody is at the point
where they're buying the book, yeah, they kind of know.
And I thought about this when I have a thriving women's private Facebook group
for women who are in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic
fill in the blank, whether it's a spouse, a parent, whatever that looks like.
And I've got a men's group coming soon. But in that, sometimes I think,
OK, if the person was listening to just some guy's podcast and they connected
with it enough to reach out,
to then get to be part of the Facebook group, to then go on the call every other
week, to then ask if I think that their marriage might work,
I kind of feel like, I think we've got a lot of data that is. That's right. Right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, if you're in a really healthy and happy relationship,
you are not Googling narcissism, emotional immaturity,
who's that woman who was talking about that thing, right?
Like, should I stay or should I go? Nobody in healthy, happy relationships are
asking these questions.
So we have, we at least have that data set, like that data point, which is.
Tremendous. It is. Now, that still, I still feel like, and I want anybody hearing that to know,
but if you still need to reach out to the guy or buy Kate's book or,
please do, accept that because that is part of the process because that's the
stuff I think people don't know that they don't know is you do need to go through
this or else you will wonder if I did it too soon. And that's where when somebody
says, well, what do you think?
I say lovingly, oh, I don't want that power.
And I want to help you have that power because I don't want it to ever be a
thing where you were saying, well, that therapist said.
Right, right, right. And that's why I'm a coach, not a therapist.
I'm pointing them to Kate, that's right, go ahead. I am very direct.
I am lovingly direct, right?
Like, you know, I tell it like it is. I tell it like it is, but I try to do so kindly.
Because I do think sometimes they do need to hear, like, that behavior's actually not okay.
And, you know, we call that abuse, you know?
Can I tell you, this is why we have to be even better best friends is that I
know, and I'm going to be a little bit jokey, but I know that a lot of therapists do have,
we're supposed to not really appreciate coaches because we have our egos and
we went to the grad school or whatever, but man, I am so aware of what you're
saying there, where it's,
it is hard for me to want to tell somebody do this because it goes against my
nature, but I really feel like I'm so grateful to be the person that gets to
be there beside the person going through their experience.
Having them get to these certain places, but then when they say, what should I do?
That's where I do feel like I want to say, can you give Kate a call?
And then I say that, then I'm still here for if the person can't do that,
or if they try to do that and then they can't, then I want to be that person
that says, tell me what that was like.
And we can figure out why you're still struggling to do that.
But I appreciate the work that you do so much because we do need a mix of both.
Absolutely. And I so appreciate you saying that because I do think,
I think that barrier between therapists and coaches is really starting to come down. Yeah, I think so.
Yeah. And the more coaches that, the fewer coaches that are just,
I'm a life coach now because I went through something as opposed to like people
who actually get training and take it seriously, the better.
And I do think it's shifting.
Yeah. And I, you know, my favorite clients are my clients who come to me and
say, listen, and I've been in therapy for a really long time and I get it.
I understand the history, the pathology, the blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah. I just need to know what to do.
Now I don't know what to do. And I need some more direction.
And those are my favorite clients because they've actually worked with a good
therapist who has brought them to the place of, okay, now we have to figure out some decisions.
Yeah, I love it because from my chair, I can see two people that seem somewhat
similar, although there's so many things that go into each one of our experiences,
but where somebody will then get to a point where then now they do take action
and another person get to that point and they are just paralyzed.
And that is really difficult because it can look the same from where I'm at right up to that point.
And then, you know, there's more there and that's where I feel like sometimes
they need a little bit of a push.
Hey, I know I can just keep talking to you. I wanna get to one point in particular
about you laid out so well, should you stay in your marriage for your kids?
And I think that's one that a lot of people don't want to address.
And when I got the Spotify rap as it tells us about our podcast over the year,
I was actually surprised that my most listened to and shared episode was one
about co-parenting with a narcissist,
and where I did some stuff that I just felt passionate about,
that kids get their sense of self from external validation.
So if the kid is in the relationship trying to read the room and manage,
are mom and dad okay or what do I do here, versus if mom is out and being healthy
and dad is not in this scenario,
then they're going to be far better off because they will have this opportunity
to really get the validation and feel heard and seen, at least by one parent.
But I thought you laid out so much good data there. Can you just go on your
train of thought about laying out what you see in that chapter?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great I think what you said is really is really so spot
on is that, you know, we think that we're hiding it from our kids.
We're so not, we're so not, even if it's really covert, and you're quiet about
it, right? Kids are so intuitive.
They are, they are little balls of energy absorbers.
And they, they, you know, they know something's wrong.
And when kids know there's something wrong and no one is naming the thing,
it is so damaging to their sense of reality that we're gaslighting them is what we're doing.
And they start to question their own reality and their own experience.
And so that's really dangerous and damaging to them. I hear it all the time.
We're staying for the kids. I'm staying for the kids. And one of the things
I hear a lot is that you be they're staying for the kids because one of the parents is toxic.
And they're worried about their ability to parent or not abuse the children.
If Look, if there's physical abuse, it's a whole, you know, it's a whole thing.
So right, that's, that's an that's a separate issue.
Unfortunately, the family court system does not acknowledge emotional abuse
as being a And very often,
they don't consider physical abuse to be an issue, because if they abused you,
they've never abused the kids, so the kids should be fine.
Like literally has led to the death of many children.
But all of that aside, if they're like, he just yells a lot,
and he has a lot of an anger problem and a lot of rage, and so I run interference,
and I run in, I protect, and all of that.
And, you know, my response to that is you're not protecting them.
What you're doing is you are, first of all, keeping them in that 100% of the time.
And any interference that you run, you're really condoning it. You're still there.
You're saying I know it's not okay that daddy yells and I'm so sorry and yada
yada yada, but you're still there Yeah, so it's really okay that daddy yells
and so if it's really not okay.
Getting yourself out even if your kids are have to be in that toxicity for half of the time,
They will be safe They will be emotionally nurtured They will have all of all
of the every all the energy that you don't have when you're in it.
Yeah, right You don't have that energy You're gonna give it to them 50% of the
time even if it's only 50% of the time and you're giving your kids the gift
of perspective Yeah, right.
You're giving them the ability to say Oh, I feel this way with mom and I feel this way with dad.
Oh that they're right there. Yes, right. I I now know what it feels like to feel safe. Yeah.
That's so well said. They're in it all the time, right? They don't know what it is to feel safe. Yeah.
And so, you know, we know that most of us enter into relationships that are
similar to the ones that were modeled to us as children.
So really, what is the model?
What is the relational blueprint that you want to hand your children? it. Yeah.
Well, and the way you just said that Kate is so, that was so well said that
now I want to make jokes of course and say that I may even then cut that out
and say it myself and say that, you know, and I told Kate, but we lost this
part of the interview, but no, that was, that was so good.
But because I, but I like what you're saying, because I feel like,
and I'll give you just an example and it happened to be opposite.
It was the mom who was more narcissistic and the dad who was,
was more pathologically kind, but where we really saw it was when he would then
drop off the kids to go see mom, then her energy was, I mean,
she's going to make sure she is angry.
And she is and then she goes to sadness, and she's going to be upset.
And so the kids again, sense of self is about I need to now caretake and manage mom.
And then when working with the guy when they would come see him,
he is so excited to see them.
I am so grateful to see you guys, you know, would tell me what what's going
on? What can we do together?
How can I and I felt like that alone shows that it is now they get this.
Wow, what are they going to feel they're going to absolutely move toward that
father's experience of validation versus I have to caretake my mom and I think they will learn more of,
okay, I'm going to thrive with in this scenario dad or in this scenario with
you and then they're going to learn a surface level relationship in essence
or maybe a more transactional relationship with the narcissistic parent and
I'm not saying that what a cool thing but I mean but at least they have the other option as well.
Right, exactly. And there may be a period of time where, you know,
the unfortunate part is when children...
Choose the more narcissistic parent over The other one out of because they know
that the other parents love is unconditional.
Yeah, and yes yes, whose love is conditional and so they're gonna they may play
into that because They don't want to lose their mom, right?
And so right like they know the safe parent They don't have to work that hard
And if mom is saying you have to choose between us, they may choose the mom for a period of time.
And this is this is what it's, you know, my friend, Dr. Christine Cochiola calls
being the protective parent.
And the protective parent is the one who is often distanced from.
And it's, you know, it's so painful, and it's so awful. But what I say to people
is that this is a long game. Yeah.
Eventually, eventually your kids will figure this out. They do. They really do.
They do. And it might take a long time, and it's going to be the most painful,
painful period of your life. It's really easy for me to say that.
I have not experienced that.
And I have seen it happen, and I've seen children start to get that dawning
realization of, wait a minute, everything that mom is saying about dad's not true. Yeah.
And mom has never, dad has never said a negative thing about mom.
Yeah. Right? Where do I feel safe? And I think that part is so good because
I think the people that you're talking with, your clients or my clients or people
that are going to read the book or take a course or I will say back to those leading indicators,
they're there because they were trying to figure out how to survive in the relationship
or to change the dynamics of the relationship.
So if they continue on that path of healing, then they learn to just start to
be more emotionally consistent and safe.
And that's where I feel like, oh, it will work.
I'm with you. It's not that I can't say every single time, 100% of the time, always.
But boy, my experience shows that the person that is in there trying to figure
it out will figure it out, and then they will thrive and grow.
And that will be the safety for the kids.
I 100% agree with that. Absolutely. And I'm glad that that's that you see that
too in your practice because I only have my experience to go by.
So, you know, I think that's, I think it's really, it's really important that
people know that, you know.
It is a danger, but it's also, it's also hopefully not forever.
Yeah. I was going to joke because I know we only have a few minutes.
And first of all, will you come back on again? Can we do like,
can we do a two-parter? Okay.
Um, and because I was going to speed round. Okay. Um, is it them or is it me?
It's them next up? You know, I was going to do it.
But if you, if you, if you had, you know, if we got five more minutes to just
today, which I'm so sorry, I should have scheduled two hours because this,
I should have known this was going to be a blast.
But, um, but what did we not cover that you are, you just would love for somebody
to hear and understand. Oh, wow.
That's such a that's such a great question. Oh, my gosh. I don't know, Tony.
What did I write? What do I write in my book? I don't remember.
Okay, well, I mean, there's okay, but got a couple of things written down here.
And I do feel like there's the I don't even know who I am anymore was you nail
that because I'm a huge fan of for me, it's the acceptance and commitment therapy,
and it's figuring out your values.
And I think that is one of values and boundaries and self care because I've
got my rules of raise your emotional baseline, self-care is not selfish,
PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations, set boundaries and
know that those are going to be a challenge. You nail it.
As a matter of fact, I'm not going to lie, do you want to hear my ego and my narcissism in here?
When I got your book, when I got the PDF, I was like, command F and I'm all,
Tony, let's see, did Kate mention me?
I really wish I could say that. I love you.
But that's probably in the follow-up book, right? All the stuff about me?
Okay, yeah. All the stuff about Tony Overbay is Tony, yes, for sure.
Or did the publisher cut it out?
And that's probably really frustrating for you. It's on the cutting room floor,
I know. It wasn't really?
I know. I really actually think that I wrote it, I wrote most of this book before
I met you, I will say. That is fair, that is okay.
But the self-care stuff alone that you have is really good.
And there's another part in there where you're talking about permission.
And, and I think that that one's just a really important talk about that. Yes.
Yes. Thank you. That is an important piece.
Um, you know, I want women to know.
That they deserve to be happy. I think I quote Mary Oliver in there,
like, you know, this is your one wild and precious life.
And we don't have time to be wasting on trying to beg people to love us, right?
And I feel like I just, I want women to, it is a radical notion for women that
we get to choose, right? We wait for boys to ask us to dance at the school dance.
We wait for boys to ask us on dates.
We wait for men to propose to us.
We are always waiting to be chosen.
And so the idea that we get to choose something like this is really radical. Yeah.
But we do, because this is our life too.
This is our children's lives as well.
And so I want, you know, I do the permission pieces in the introduction because
I want women to know that I want to grant them permission.
Yeah. That it's okay to read this book. It's okay to make this decision.
It's okay to not choose right away, but it is vital that you believe that you deserve to be happy too.
Yeah, I love it. Right, and that you're living your authentic truth in your life.
Well, we don't know what we don't know in good marriage therapy when people get it.
I mean, you're learning to be two autonomous, interdependent,
differentiated people, and that's so scary for the emotionally immature person
because they feel like I'm gonna lose control of this person.
And, but when you're two amazing human beings, now you're having these shared
experiences and looking at things with curiosity.
And I think that's a version of a relationship that people have no idea what
that looks like. But that is what one deserves.
That's right. And, you know, control has no place in a relationship.
No. Watch me quote myself. Are you ready for this one? There you go.
Yes. I often say you can't have love or control in an adult relationship,
both. See, I didn't even quote myself right.
I often say you can't have both love and... Wait, I don't remember what I say.
Something about love and control, Kate. Yeah, I think...
One of them. Choose one of them. Choose one. Either love or control.
That's right. Yeah. That's right. No, I agree with you, whatever it is that you say. I agree.
Okay. Okay. I have to say this. I have to say this too. You have a part where
I could, I just wish I was there when you were writing this one out,
but it's this list of other things that are not your job.
Pack him for him when he goes on his trips. Create the to-do list for him.
And I love this one. To force him to go to therapy. That is not your job.
And that's the original leading indicator that led me to think about the concepts
of leading indicators was when somebody said he finally agreed to go to therapy
after I basically forced him. And I'm saying, Yeah, that doesn't work.
He has to want to. I mean, you've got so many there, though,
that there's so many there that are so good.
Yes, you sanitized it, but it is not.
I already have to click the explicit thing. I should let you to like read the list.
It's so good. No, it's all right. We'll keep it clean. But yes,
there are so many things that are not your job that women do, right?
This is why we're so exhausted in our marriages that we're constantly doing
all this work. We're doing extra stuff. We're doing taking.
I mean, come on. Right. These are you are two grownups.
You're too grown ass humans. There we go.
Right. And you guys. Sorry, did I just make it explicit? No,
we already did. You already did. Yeah,
like you're too grown ass humans. And so the idea that
I have to pack his lunch for him when he for when he goes to work or if I go
on a girl's trip that I have to make sure that I have six casseroles in the
in the freezer for him. Come on.
Okay, while we're on there you have one it's not your job to be attractive enough
to keep him from straying to dye your hair, get a boob job, cut your hair,
lose weight, gain weight, exercise in order to be enough for him or to be his
mother or to keep a schedule or to heal. I mean it's so good.
That just, that's Kate right there.
That's my manifesto. Yes. I agree. Kate Anthony, will you please come on again?
I would love to. Okay, I can't believe we just went 15 minutes.
Okay. And so then where can people buy the book? I'll have a link to it.
And, but I think this is honestly, and I'm not just saying this because I just
dig you, but therapists need this in their office, because there are times where
then I'm sitting there saying, Okay, oh, what would that look like if you do
schedule the free consultation with the attorney?
Well, I don't want to that's too scary and I'd like this is where a
therapist needs to say just read this I mean that would
be a really helpful thing would love therapists to have
a stack of this book in their office because that is
absolutely right I think there comes a point in therapy
where you can just sort of slide the book and then you know your your hands
are clean for sure but absolutely so it's everything is on my website it's Kate
Anthony calm there's a page on my website where you can I have ideas for how
to buy it kind of on the DL because we've got,
you know, this is not the kind of thing you want necessarily showing up in your share.
Yes, I'm glad you said that. Yeah. Okay. Right. So call.
Yeah, on my website, there's a page that kateanthony.com slash D word that give
you some ideas for that. I've also got a ton of bonuses for people.
And yeah, everything else everything I do is on my website. So my podcast,
which Tony's gonna come back on. which is the Divorce Survival Guide podcast.
And you can find me on Instagram at the Divorce Survival Guide.
Okay, what a joy. We will talk again soon. And then I would like,
I'm gonna buy some from you and you must autograph one.
I think that'd be really fun to have that. Okay, I want that.
Absolutely, well, I would love it, yeah, of course. Now I wanna come down to
LA and I wanna do an event together and I wanna do all these kinds of things, all right?
Listen, I'm in. Okay, sounds good. Tony, I am so in.
All right, Kate, thanks so much. I appreciate you coming on and then we'll talk
again soon. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Thanks, Kate.