Music.
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 98 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overvey. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
host of the Virtual Couch podcast, which highly recommend the episode that I
put out yesterday on the Virtual Couch.
We're talking about how to gain emotional intelligence and how important that is.
There's a really funny fact that I will probably bring over into an episode
here on Waking Up to Narcissism soon, but there's some research that shows that
95% of people identify themselves as self-aware,
but this A particular social psychologist did, I think, a five-year research
project and discovered that according to their metrics, only 10 to 15% of people
are actually self-aware.
Again, 95% of people say, I'm totally self-aware, except for when they're not.
And I think that probably does apply more in this world of emotional immaturity
or narcissism, but I digress.
So go to the show notes and find the link tree in the show notes,
and please, or just Just go to tonyoverbay.com and sign up for my newsletter,
putting out a lot of fun content with that.
And you can also find out more about upcoming courses and programs.
And my Magnetic Marriage course is about to relaunch, and I'm really excited
about that. There's so much there.
And I know I've said that on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
you might be in a challenging relationship and I'm not just trying to make a
sales pitch, but I still go to the place where we don't know what we don't know.
And so many people don't even know what even a healthy relationship is supposed to look like.
So I think there's a lot of value there in this course because I try to take
it from the, of course we don't know what we don't know.
Let me help even show you what a healthy relationship would look like and I'm
going to shoot on you should look like.
And I want your feedback. Please continue to send an email. I get a lot of emails
from this podcast in particular,
and I just so appreciate them because I think they're coming from people that
want to be heard and they want to be seen and I do hear you and I see you and
I read everything that is sent in and I just I really appreciate it.
So today's guest is a gentleman named Ryan Anderson and he has a lot of letters
behind his name, very impressive ones too.
He has a PhD, he is also LMFT like myself and he has a MedFT which I don't know
that one and he's director at Telos NeuroHealth and the Executive Director at
Telos Discovery Space Center.
And he the space center thing sounds amazing already, but I've been all over
the Telos website and it's very impressive.
And I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well.
So Ryan has a bachelor's degree in marriage, family and human development from
Brigham Young University.
And he got his PhD in medical family therapy, which was something we talked about in the interview.
I wasn't even familiar that that was a degree from East Carolina University.
He has 10 publications, including two books, and today we're going to talk about
one of those books, and it's a very important book called The Choice to Leave Abuse.
And just the topic that we're talking about today, abuse, is something that
I just I do not think we're talking enough about.
There are so many parts of this interview that I want to just make clips and
just put out there on their own.
The first of which is one where I had Lori Finlay do an amazing job a few weeks
ago talking about epigenetics.
And Ryan has a lot of his background is also in studying epigenetics and the
way that we store abuse and trauma and how that affects our very genetic makeup.
But he gives a lot of hope, as Laurie did, on ways that you can overcome that.
So I think that part alone is just incredible.
And back to wanting your feedback, I would love your stories in particular about
this issue because in my private women's Facebook group,
somebody recently asked if their church or ecclesiastical leader had been supportive
because she didn't feel like hers had, or if anybody had gone to their church
leader for help in any way and had it not gone well.
And unfortunately, there were a lot of examples of leaders who I know are trying
their best, but who completely invalidated somebody that I know it took a lot
of courage for them to even go into their bishop or their priest or their pastor
into their office to begin with.
So then to be challenged on whether or not they were to be believed,
or if they're hearing things like, do you know what this could do to your family?
Or to be told that, well, your spouse doesn't really look like somebody that
would do something like that.
It only makes things worse and it keeps a problem like this that needs to be
addressed right now further in the shadows.
And it reminds me, I still remember one of the first women that I ever worked
with who told me about mental abuse, sexual coercion and spiritual abuse as
well as financial control that she was going through.
And I eventually ended up meeting at some point with the husband and he was
nice for about 10 or 15 minutes.
But when then he saw that wasn't simply just going to validate him,
then he got really aggressive.
And I remember the button that he pushed that I just didn't even know where
this reaction came from was when he was telling me that I would do the exact
same thing that he does to my wife if she was like his wife.
And this was over 15 years ago. And I didn't know this population like I do now.
And sure enough, I reacted, I fully engaged with them. And I left that session
so angry and frustrated, which I now know was exactly what he wanted.
And I mentioned this because he went on to serve in some fairly high callings
or positions in his church.
And later, I worked with a couple of people that had gone to him for ecclesiastical
support. And it was kind of a mixed bag.
If people were nice to him, he was nice to them. If you weren't,
then he had a tendency to break you down and do it what he said was in the name
of God, which just killed me. It really did.
And I guess I also mentioned this as well as to say, I know people are interacting
with people in positions of authority who are not being helpful or supportive.
And so if that is you, I can imagine that maybe you don't feel like there's
anywhere you can go and that there isn't anyone you can talk to.
And so I want you to really hear this interview with Ryan and I today,
because we talk about that a lot.
And Ryan is coming, let me just, very upfront and transparent.
Ryan's coming at this from a position as an active faithful member of the LDS,
or formerly known as Mormon Church, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
But this isn't about the doctrine of the church per se, but it's more about
an abuse of religious power and what abuse can do to the body.
And also, though, how you can find hope and how you can repair.
And then if you are in any position of church leadership,
I think this is going to be so beneficial because it's going to give information
to uninformed church leaders for any and all faiths to know how to better support
members of the congregation who come into your office needing help. It's okay to refer out.
It's okay to say, I don't know, but let me find somebody who does.
Because the bottom line, and Ryan talks about this in the interview,
is that he has all the data to show that something like people who come in and
they are alleging abuse, that in those situations,
over 97% of them, I believe, was the number, the abuses turns out to be true.
So if you are a church leader and you feel like you need to determine whether
or not you thank the woman or the man in front of you who is finally claiming
struggles or challenges in the home, and there's mention of any type of abuse,
and you feel like you need to be the one that will, I'll have the final say
on that, stop right there and get them help because I really do.
I hope and I absolutely pray that you get to someday say that you had one of
those one or 2% of people who,
it turned out maybe had inflated the narrative because of whatever the reason
was, their own childhood wounding, or that was the way that they,
the only way they felt like they could be seen or understood.
Because in reality, chances are you'll probably never have that happen.
And if you do, then you can feel good about pointing that person to the right
resources because you did everything that you could do.
Let me get off the soapbox and let me just read off the Amazon description of
Ryan's book, and then I'll just ease right into the interview with Ryan Anderson.
And this episode is also on YouTube as well, so if you're interested in watching
rather than only listening, please go there and subscribe and all that fun stuff.
So from the description off of Amazon, it says, God strongly condemns any form of abuse.
In recent years, the struggles of Latter-day Saints and abusive relationships
have made national headlines.
The media attention has highlighted a deeply unfortunate perception,
many Latter-day Saints fear that by choosing to leave an abusive relationship,
they are at risk of breaking their covenants with God.
Mental health professionals and law enforcement officers who work with Latter-day
Saint populations attest to the number of people who continue to be hurt,
humiliated, and even killed because they believe it is their righteous obligation
to endure abuse to the end.
This damaging misperception and
the traditions that have helped create and maintain it must be corrected.
With a direct and straightforward discussion of the doctrines and the teachings
about abuse, this book not only provides clear guidance for bishops and other
local leaders on how to respond to abuse, but will also help you discover God's
true feelings about abuse and the love He has for all who suffer.
Learn to identify the signs of abuse in your own relationships and in others,
overcome roadblocks that may be hindering escape from an abusive situation,
and follow the path of healing in mind, body, and spirit.
So with that said, if any of this resonates with you, then just please know
you're not alone and reach out and find help, resources, whatever you can do.
But that first step of raising your emotional baseline and starting to take
more control of the situation that you're in is just from starting to become more informed.
So I'm grateful you're here and I think you'll get a lot from this interview.
So let me go now to my interview with Ryan Anderson.
You were saying you're having a busy morning, but I don't think I can quite
just feign laughter just to make it sound fun.
Oh, if I could tell you some of the adventures I've had this morning.
Okay, is it in the therapeutic world or are you just talking family?
Okay, all right. Yeah. So maybe start there. You are an LMFT and a PhD, right?
Yeah, that's right. I got my master's degree from Brigham Young University and
then my PhD is actually in medical family therapy from East Carolina University.
That's a crossover of working on mental health and physical health issues and
the way they interact with each other.
I did not know this was a thing, Ryan. So tell me more about this. What was that like?
Oh, it was really great. I think for me, kind of what got me interested in that
is, in my family growing up, there were a couple of significant medical issues as well,
and I saw, you know, that there were emotional issues that were connected with
that, and that there was this reciprocal relationship between the two.
And so that was something that always interested me.
And when I was finishing up my master's degree and thinking I might want to
get a PhD, I found that East Carolina University had just offered the very first PhD of the kind.
So I was actually part of the first graduating class in medical family therapy
in the United States, possibly in the world, although I'm not sure if someone
else jumped it somewhere else in the world and we just didn't see it.
But that's been kind of fascinating. And I've always loved to take a look can
understand that really strong connection between the physical and the psychological.
I work with a lot of people that have extreme emotional immaturity,
bordering on narcissistic traits and tendencies, so this is the part where I
was ready for you to, first time it was ever that a course, and you were top
of the class, or was that the case?
Well, I did get a 4.0.
Okay, so see, that's a healthy ego, right? The first graduating class.
But I will say that my classmates were equally wonderful and accomplished,
and they've gone on to do some amazing things.
So I kind of saw us as kind of rather than hierarchical, it was sort of three
musketeers stepping across the line together. Okay.
I like that. I like that a lot. What classes were maybe significant in a medical PhD versus a PsyD?
So one of the things that we did a lot of studying on were on medical health disparities.
The idea that, for example, women in general have worse medical outcomes than men.
And it's not because there's something inherently different about women,
but it has to do with the way they interact with the healthcare system.
Minorities have worse healthcare outcomes than people who are in a majority
population, and a lot of that has to do with not just individual psychology,
but interpersonal and larger system pieces.
And so a lot of what we were studying is as people have health problems,
and as they interface with the healthcare system, first of all,
what are those differential aspects they're going to experience?
How does that affect their outcomes?
And what can we do to improve that experience?
So there was a lot of study that we did on that with understanding how those
things occur and how you can help to improve them. So what's a good example
of something like that that you studied or ran into?
Yeah, so for example, if you are a woman with some, say you have pancreatic cancer,
and you live in the South, you are more likely to have a healthcare professional
respond to you with, well, you're just hysterical, or this is just anxiety, or this is just...
Okay. So that by the time you actually have your diagnosis of cancer and someone's
doing something to try to help you,
you are much more likely to be at stage four cancer than a man or than a woman,
say, in Portland or in Washington State.
Or also, similarly, there are different types of cancer that the specific cancer
cells are fed by certain stress hormones inside the body.
So for example, we found for several types of breast cancer,
the quality of the relationship and the trust between a woman and her marital
partner actually helped to increase survival.
Whereas stress and lack of trust or betrayal actually shows an increased fatality rate amongst them.
So there are all these pieces where you see that there's so many ways that relationships
and emotions are connected to actual health outcomes.
And also, and this comes into some of the work that I'm doing on the idea of
abuse systems. And they understand people and the boxes that they put people
in, who they favor and who they disfavor.
Absolutely has a big impact on people's outcomes, which could be improved if
we were to improve the systems.
I love the book and it's the choice to leave abuse, but boy we just hit on something there.
The Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, so many people there are in these emotionally
immature relationships where they are continually trying to give their partner
that aha moment, but really handing them buttons to push
to then be the target of gaslighting, to then feel emotionally unstable,
and then the cortisol is just flowing freely in the brain.
And I just did an amygdala hijack episode recently where I was talking about
that correlation with the hippocampus and short-term memory.
And if things can't even make it there, then they're not gonna make it into
long-term memory and that person is gonna be in the spider flight state.
Is that kind of that work as well, of figuring out how all that plays together?
Absolutely, and it even goes further. I believe in my book I talk a little bit
about the concept of epigenes and epigenetics.
And this is relatively new science, where we recognize in our genes,
every single one of us, we have the genes that are currently expressed and turned on.
But we have a wide variety of other things that could be expressed.
And epigenes are, you can sort of think of them as like metagenes,
they literally surround your genes.
And there are different things that can happen that can activate your epigenes,
which then change the way your genes are expressing, literally altering your genetic phenotype.
And so one of the things that we found, for example, women who are living in
relationships with men who gaslight, men who have sex affairs, men who abuse,
not only does this have this emotional impact, but it goes all the way down
to the epigenes and the genes. And what do we see?
We see that they begin to alter and now they're having digestive issues.
Now they're having pain.
Now they're having chronic insomnia. And it's not just psychological.
Literally, what's going on in the genes have changed.
And so for me, this is one of the reasons that raising awareness of this is
so important, is that abuse of any kind affects us all the way down to the very
building blocks of who we are.
Now, the good news is there's room for healing that can go down that deep as well.
But we have to create the right circumstances for that to occur.
This is so perfect. I had somebody that just was starting to lay the groundwork
about epigenetics a few weeks ago, and so I think where you're at with that,
it just continues to speak to this audience that hear the podcast.
And I want to get into the specifics of your book too, but I often find that
people start to hear this and by the very people that need to hear it because
of the Situations or that they've been in now I hear these sort of thing and
start to be terrified Do you run into that and how do you start to address it?
Sure. I think a lot of people are worried that okay Well, if what has happened
to me has altered me down all the way to the genes then I'm doomed, right? That's great.
So I have I have been altered and I'm never going to heal And I can understand
how people would feel that, but the good news is epigenes work both ways.
So, for example, when you put yourself in a situation where you are genuinely safe.
Where there are trustworthy people around you, where you are actually valued and treasured.
When you allow yourself to recognize that that is a possibility,
and you make the brave journey to get there.
Then all of those things that could work on you to change your genes in a negative
way and begin to change in a positive way as well.
So the good news is it's flexible, It's meltable in both directions.
So while it's scary, it's also a reason to have hope because no matter how much
someone has hurt you, no matter how it has altered you.
You remain malleable, plastic, able to change if you are able to put yourself
in a situation where that change is safe to make. Yeah.
And so that's the other side of the coin that I think is really important to recognize.
I love that too and forgive me for a trope I enjoy saying on my podcast but
we go from we didn't know what we didn't know to now we know but we don't do
a lot about it and I think that's a really scary place to be but it's part of the process.
Then we go to we do more than we don't and then eventually we become so that's
where I like to say anybody that is hearing Ryan and I right now is on that
path of healing even if that feels overwhelming.
So I love that anything that you're saying right now and somebody's hearing
it and it does feel scary and that you are a literal expert in this field that
says, all right, that things can change, that neuroplasticity is real.
Well, and I love what you're saying, and I want to fully endorse it,
saying in fact, by allowing it to be a little bit at a time,
that's how to open up the possibility of change.
Oftentimes where we get stuck is when we think we've got to hit that final mark first.
And all we experience is despair and disappointment.
And we conclude, well, there was no healing for me.
Instead of, you know what, I'm trying to go from completely miserable to only
sort of almost completely miserable.
And that's the thing forward from there.
Yeah. And okay, now you're validating me, which I will not validate you and I appreciate it.
But I kind of make this joke, Ryan, that that that's not a very sexy sales pitch,
so it doesn't sell courses or books.
I almost feel like, okay, I, am I the only one saying, yeah,
it's going to take a little while or quite a while, but welcome to the path
and you are where you need to be.
And when people say, how long is it going to take as long as it takes and where
should I be right now, right where you are and all those sorts of things.
But it makes sense though, because it is going to take that long.
Anything else is artificial, right?
Anything else is selling somebody something that is illusory at best.
You know, and especially I think it's important to recognize healing is also
not entirely linear, right? You're going to walk forward, you're going to be
feeling a whole lot better, and then you're going to run into something that catches you off guard.
And you're going to feel like you lost so much ground, and you're going to say,
oh no, does this mean that all of my growth was false, that none of this matters?
The interesting thing is that trauma bakes at multiple speeds.
It gets buried on different levels. And you know, some trauma can only kind
of surface and show itself once you've been safe enough, and you heal the health.
Where it goes, okay, here's this other thing. How about that?
Since we've gotten some progress on these other things.
And so there's this recognition of...
Okay, as I'm healing, I'm going to hit things that feel like they pushed me
back, or I didn't think that was going to bother me, or it didn't bother me
before, but it does now. Yeah.
That's just this natural process of your body saying, the only reason I'm letting
you feel this pain now, instead of completely numbing it out,
is because I now believe there's a possibility of a heal. Oh, okay. I like that.
And so you've come far enough that I can now bring this piece up,
some trust that this isn't going to kill us.
This is actually going to be progressive. And so it's kind of that sign like,
you know, when you have had severe burns and your nerves are all gone,
and then as you start to heal, suddenly,
oh, I can start to hurt here now, or feel sore there now, or all those kinds
of things. It's the same process.
So it doesn't mean that you're losing ground. It means that your body is able
to recognize, I can now go there and still maintain integrity and hope and this is a path forward.
In fact, if anything, it's a good sign.
Yeah, I love that. I do. It makes me think of a pretty pedestrian example,
but I worked with recently where somebody just said, the only thing I want to do is be an artist.
And if I only had all the tools to create art and then I would be happy.
And the people in their circle were trying to tell them, well,
but don't you want to do this instead or this or this? So finally,
everybody, it seems like, was on board.
OK, we're going to support this person. And then once they had the freedom to
do that, then they got to that point and realized, actually,
this isn't really what I wanted to do.
But they could never get there until they'd had that freedom to then finally just be.
So I like what you're saying about it's going to be a good thing to if it's
hard to sell that part too, right?
I guess that is just wait. It might even get more interesting.
I guess that's a positive spin. Yeah.
The one thing we always recognize is, look, we, when people are struggling emotionally,
what you notice is they tend to clamp down.
And that their range of emotion gets really small. Maybe they're depressed all
the time, but they're kind of the same depressed all the time.
Maybe they're anxious all the time, right? And so what's happened is the range has shrunk.
Healing is your range growing, and being able to experience a whole range of
emotions, and to go, for me to feel what I'm feeling. I can manage this.
I can manage feeling really high. I can manage feeling really happy.
I can manage feeling hopeful. I don't have to shut that down out of fear of disappointment.
I can feel really lousy. I can feel really crappy. I can survive that.
I can deal with that. I know that's going to end.
And so that's how you know your mental health is improving is because your range expands.
I love that. I had someone that not long ago, they found themselves in a position
where they wanted to have the dance parties with their kids that they hadn't felt in a long time.
So that was an amazing thing, but then what it also then led to was there were some lower lows.
And so then we would have these, I thought these fun discussions,
fun, these good discussions about are the high highs worth experiencing the lows?
And then the person, once they really had the right tools, was able to then
even work through the lows and see some growth there, so I really like that.
Let's talk about your book, because I feel like I could just talk to you in general for a long time.
I know, right? If you're okay, let me read the publisher description,
and I would love for you to then go wherever you want to go,
because I think we've set a nice base to work from.
So it says, "'God strongly condemns any form of abuse, "'and in recent years,
the struggles of Latter-day Saints "'and abusive relationships has made national
headlines. The media attention has highlighted a deeply unfortunate perception.
Many Latter-day Saints fear that by choosing to leave an abusive relationship,
they're at risk of breaking their covenants with God." Which I gotta tell you,
Ryan, I so appreciate that because I love the work I do, but we have to work
through some extra layers, I think, with that alone.
And then you just say, mental health professionals and law enforcement officers
who work with Latter-day Saint populations attest to the number of people who,
continue to be hurt, humiliated, and even killed because they believe that it's
their religious obligation to endure abuse to the end.
So, yeah, jump in anywhere you want there and tell me what led you to write
the book and I just I so appreciate this working with this population.
For me, what led me to this book was a combination of professional experiences
but also personal experiences with people that that I deeply care about and,
seeing them feel exactly what was just described, the idea that,
look, I made covenants, my covenants are that I have to stick with this person and be loyal.
And they, you know, so many of them had, and I want to be clear about this when
I say this, nothing I'm saying is intended to be critical of the Church.
But it's a recognition that people within the Church are people,
and we're subject to all the same misunderstandings, all the same prejudices,
all the same human factors that any other human being is.
You know, so there were a lot of people who came from this and even had,
unfortunately, bishops or leaf-sider presidents, big presidents tell them, yes, this is the case.
Your job is to be with this person, stick with this person, let them do what
they're doing, and almost kind of asking them to be like a faux savior for this person.
Yeah, it's like their Latin life, this is your challenge, right?
Yep, your job is to be crucified for their sins.
And you doing any less is you breaking their covenants.
I've had people say, if you take the kids and walk away, then your ceiling with
the children is broken, and they remain sealed, abuser, like all of these things.
And if you happen to be LDS, if you believe this, if these are the most important
beliefs you have in your life,
there's no way you're going to be willing to do anything to change that situation,
no matter how much damage it's doing to you or to your children or whatever it may be.
And the interesting thing is when you dig into this, you'll find that these
kinds of stories and these kinds of narratives have existed among Latter-day,
Saints for many generations.
But when you really dig into what is the actual doctrine...
You realize none of this is there.
Even though people will bring up this quote from this person or that scripture
from that person to support this idea, when you dig into it, none of it's there.
And then for me, kind of the biggest impact was as President Nelson first became
president of the church.
It was so interesting to me. I said, okay, if you want to see the Lord's priority,
Let's take a look and see what is the very first official act that President Nelson takes.
And what was it? The very first thing he did was he altered the church's approach
and policies and protections specifically around abuse.
Specific new policy written and published, there were releases made,
and at the core of it was, no one is expected to endure abuse.
Yeah. We should not protect people who abuse, nor should we ever tell someone
who's being abused that they have to stay in an abusive relationship.
That was the very first thing. Hmm. That, and for me, that was kind of,
when I was looking at both what was going on in my personal life and what was
going on professionally, when I saw that, I found myself having these conversations
with people over and over again, and I said,
someone just needs to bring all of this together in one place. Got you.
I was like, I guess I'm someone.
I guess I could do this. I really didn't want to write another book.
I knew how much work it was to write a book, but I felt the draw that these
ideas needed to all exist in one place at one time.
That's what led to me deciding, okay, I am actually going to write this.
Yeah. Ryan, what do you think? And I so appreciate that, too.
Again, working with this population a lot myself. What do you feel like is your
opinion on the origin story or the genesis of why it's so common,
especially with LDS women?
Oh boy, that is a loaded question.
Okay, I'm going to say some things. Again, I'm going to reiterate,
none of this is intended to be. Yeah.
Critical of the Church. I think one of the things I've learned,
I'm going to speak from the spiritual side of things for a moment here.
Anything that is sacred, like my learning through life has led me to believe
that anything that is sacred and good, that Satan will try to create a counterfeit of.
So that people who value that good thing have a decoy that can potentially lure them away.
You know, in our church, we value things like obedience and sacrifice.
We go on 18- to 2-year missions where we're expected to give up a lot of things,
and frankly, put up with a lot of garbage.
Oh, doors slammed in your face, I had kids throw rocks at me,
I had all kinds of nasty things happen to me.
But I was willing to do it because it was part of my commitment to the Savior,
part of my commitment to the covenants that I made.
And so when you can take all of those real pieces of discipleship and you can
find a way to fashion that into a weapon that will crush souls and pass pain
down from generation to generation,
and if you happen to be Lucifer and that's what your priorities are, you're going to do it.
And so at some point in time, and I think this happened, you know,
probably very early on, honestly, some of this was probably even carried even
from before the church was founded.
Cultures that people had, things that devalued women, things that saw less than
men, a culture of corporeal punishment.
All of these things have multiple streams that were able to feed it.
And as people came into the Church, they don't just suddenly shed all of those
things that came with them, right? Yeah.
This worked its way in. And so, especially as you think about a church history
where we talk about the sanctity of marriage and marriage, I suppose, needs to last forever.
And also, I'm gonna say something that might sound a little controversial.
I think there are many places in the church where we've kind of had a fragility complex around men.
You don't wanna challenge men too much because they'll leave,
but boy, you can hit the sisters over the head with a baseball bat.
That's funny, right? And we could talk all day about how that developed.
I've seen that as I've gone different places in the world, there had been that
kind of attitude of, you know, don't push the men too hard, but definitely push
the women as far as they'll go.
So I think there are a lot of things that kind of came together.
And I think there was kind of this fear of, well, what, you know,
what would happen if literally every man who's being abusive to his wife,
what would happen to the church if the wife chose to leave?
How many divorces would happen? What does that do to, okay, well,
and especially when you think about old policies, well, it used to be that for
the first year after a divorce, you lost your temple room.
It used to be that if you were divorced, there were callings you could never have.
And so there's this idea that, boy, if this were to happen, it feels like it
would kind of be apocalyptic.
And one of the things we've learned is a lot of those old policies have changed, right?
And I think there's a lot of reasons why they have changed, but there's this
idea of like, who are we really serving when we cover up a person's abuse towards
another person? Are we solving anything?
And I was just saying, and absolutely not, and I appreciate your take on that too.
And I've done a couple of leading saints podcasts about emotional immaturity
and narcissism in church leadership,
and with not trying to poke the bear, so to speak, but just kind of bring an
awareness around what that can look like, especially emotionally immature behaviors
and leadership, because it really can be very impulsive and it can be controlling.
And then I often get right, and I find that a lot of the men I work with,
because I also work with a lot of people that are struggling with turning unhealthy
coping mechanisms and addiction.
And I think when there's a, hey, here's a right way, then it's assumed that
then everything else is the wrong way.
So then if somebody is just being human or being and doing, and they feel like,
well, I'm doing the wrong thing, it's almost like they have to then go bigger
on the things they feel like they can control.
And often, unfortunately, I see that that can end up looking like control over wife and kids.
And then, yeah, that's really difficult though.
And I appreciate that you bring that up. One of the things I speak about fairly
extensively in the book is the idea of spiritual abuse, right?
You learn about sexual, emotional, but there's this idea that,
again, Satan tries to take anything good and use it as a weapon.
And especially when you read Doctrine and Covenants, section 121,
there's some very clear doctrinal wording in there about it is in the nature
of, we've learned through sad experience that it was the nature of most men,
when they receive cell authority as they suppose.
They immediately begin to criticize unrighteous dominion.
So what does that mean, right? That can be things like, you know,
I've had, and again, never intending to be critical of the church,
but understanding human nature.
I've had bishops come and tell people, look, you have to accept this job and turn this job down.
That's not within a bishop's stewardship. Oh, I'm glad you're saying that.
Yeah, I've seen some people make some, and again, I, I, I go with my first pillar
of a connected conversation is assuming
good intentions of what somebody's doing, or there's a reason why.
And part of that reason could be because if, if they lacked any control in their
life, or they have this opportunity for the first time to be in this position
of power and get the validation.
I was in a bishopric once and, and the bishop joked about all of his jokes were
a bit funnier. And when he was in that position, and you know, right.
And everybody would smile at him. And I think that really can,
can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can,
can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, get to someone, that can be difficult.
Yeah, actually, it's interesting, I remember Elder Uchtdorf told a story about that.
I think, I can't remember who he said told him this, but it was relatively early
in his time as an apostle where he was told, there's a lot of people who are
gonna say a lot of wonderful things to you. Yeah.
Don't let it go to your head. But there is, there's a seductive aspect of that.
This, maybe it's about me, but your church calling is never about you.
A priesthood position you hold is never about you, but it's very easy. There's this...
Sort of gravitic motion of saying, maybe this is about me. Right, yeah.
And this is the difficult part is, there are so many ways where if someone who's
in a position of authority, so it's a bishop, it's a stake president,
or even it's, I know a lot of people who still cling to the idea of family patriarchs, right?
The grandfather is the patriarch of the family, and therefore he receives revelation
for everyone, and what he says goes, and even if you feel like you've got different
revelation, guess what, yours is wrong and his is right. That's completely non-doctrinal.
Yes. And it's completely inappropriate. But for a lot of families,
especially ones who've been in the church for a long time, that became a part of the tradition.
And the idea is that I have to go along with that. And I've seen that be so
tremendously destructive.
So there's that awareness of being aware of what the priesthood line and the
personal line actually look like.
Understanding what revelation looks like coming through both of those,
the relationship between the two.
And so often that gets misused.
Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes completely unintentional,
and the person just acting out what they've seen, what they've known,
you know, the way we all do with family dynamics, right?
My dad yelled at me when he was upset at me as a kid. I find myself yelling at my kid.
At no point in time did my dad sit down and say, so when your child misbehaves,
yell at I'm just producing what I experienced.
And so I believe in so much of this, there's not intentional malice.
But it's things that have insidiously worked their way in that if we understand
them, we can reclaim these things for what they really should to allow,
to absolutely understand that priesthood line and work with it,
and it can be a blessing to us.
And that personal line, and work with it, and let that be a blessing to us.
But never, one thing I've learned is, as LDS people, we believe in revelation.
But revelation, claiming revelation is not a trump card to stop thinking.
Amen, yeah, right. It's not a trump card to say, hey look, I said I had a revelation,
and therefore now you must do what I say. It's the equivalent of the Jedi mind trick.
You know, I have a revelation, and therefore, you do this.
Yeah. That's not how that works. If they had a revelation that impacts.
You have a right to receive that same revelation. And at no point in time does
someone's claim of revelation obligate you to act in a certain way.
Even coming down from the general authorities, they themselves will say,
here's the revelation, please seek your own confirmation.
Right? Well, what I think is funny about that, and Ryan, what I appreciate about
that is I've been writing a fair amount about the differentiation even from
a person, an authority, a leader, because there's been a lot of that.
And coming into my office, I work a lot with people working through faith journey,
faith transition, and it is okay
when somebody says something and then it brings up the feelings in you.
They are your feelings, your opportunity to self-confront and grow.
And so then I feel like everything becomes this, in essence,
a muse to then help you understand, well, what does that mean to me versus the, I guess now I have to.
And that's a really hard concept for people that have just, like we were saying
earlier, which I appreciate, have this value of obedience, and they're a rule follower.
I think I find so many people that that's how they identify themselves.
And that's a really, that's a hard population to say, it's okay to really say,
how do I feel about this and why?
You know, and one of the things I've learned is kind of helping people say,
well, let's take a look at that value and go deeper, right? Is it just the obedience?
Is that what the actual value is, or is it obedience to something that you know comes from God?
Well, two very different things, aren't they?
Right? Absolutely, I would endorse saying like, hey look, when you know something
comes from God, obedience is clearly an important thing to value.
But there are so many things that are going to portray themselves as having come from God.
Or so many things where just because you've learned to obey that,
and just because someone was right in giving you counsel A, doesn't mean they're
right about everything.
You know, the church does not have a doctrine of infallibility.
Yet sometimes I think we act as if it does.
We don't pretend that everything any bishop has ever said, anything every prophet
has ever said has always been 100% perfect.
In fact, you know, you read of the Doctrine and Covenants, how many times do
you have Heavenly Father chastising Joseph Smith for messing up?
It's all over the place, right? And so there's this awareness of everyone is
growing. Everyone is moving.
And again, we need to be careful not to steady the arc and go in and say,
I know this must be a place where he's making a mistake, right?
But there's this piece of saying,
look, for me, if I'm having emotional reactions to things, that's okay.
I can't ask questions.
In fact, that's how this whole thing started, with Joseph Smith,
asking questions. And questions are not threat, if I can be open and honest with my question.
It will eventually lead me to where I need to go. It's when I shut it down,
it's when I shut it off, that I'm going to get stuck.
Yeah, I like that. I feel like so many people are almost asking,
and I don't know if you run into this in your office, but people with the narrative
of, I know I shouldn't feel this way, or I know it's probably not right for me to ask this.
And that, I think, shows the depth of the wound of not feeling like it's okay
to have thought and emotion.
And I really believe we do a disservice of, even the best of parent when a kid
is trying to externalize their emotion, I feel this way, I'm angry, I'm frustrated,
even a good parent is saying, hey, it's okay, like they didn't mean that or
it's not a big deal or don't worry about it.
And so then over time, it goes back to that, well then my emotions must be wrong,
because it seems like they aren't right, so then I will internalize those and
I really feel like that's that genesis of what's wrong with me, I am broken story.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in that ability to say,
one, your emotions are what they are.
Yep. Two, emotions are also just one source of information for you.
And when you learn to take them and recognize all of my emotions are real and
based on my ability to perceive, and my ability to perceive is subjective,
that doesn't mean my emotions are wrong.
My emotions make sense with my current level of perception.
Now, my level of perception may change, my level of emotional maturity may change,
I may have other experiences which add to my ability to interpret what's going on, and that's okay.
I think where we run into real trouble is where we feel that we have to pretend
to have an emotion, manufacture that emotion, because we tell ourselves the
emotion we're having is not okay.
You know, we, for example, we value faith, and so I think that makes us afraid of doubt.
But isn't doubt and questioning the first step towards faith an answer?
Right? So doubt doesn't have to be this terrifying thing.
Uncertainty doesn't have to be this terrifying thing. But unfortunately,
when we talk about spiritual abuse, those are things that someone who's practicing
spiritual abuse will latch onto. Yeah.
They will use that to generate guilt and shame and the sense of being less than.
Yes. And as a result of that, you can use that as the ring in the bull's nose
to pull someone around to all kinds of things.
Or to excite people to a zealotness where they're doing something which is actually
morally wrong, but in the moment they think they're doing it.
Like, I think of when I read the accounts of what happened in the Mountain Meadows
Massacre, right, there were people in different places, but absolutely,
for at least some of those people, it was spiritual abuse.
Someone in a position of authority telling them that this was their spiritual
obligation to do something that, once they were distant from it,
they went, holy cow, that's terrible, and I can't believe I did that.
And there's all kinds of things where, you know, spiritual abuse can be used
to make someone choose to have a child rather than making that choice at their own pace.
It can be to have someone, you know, stop sharing their thoughts in church.
It can be all kinds of things. I think for LDS people it's particularly insidious
because it's really hard to say, wait, someone I can recognize that someone
is using spirituality wrong,
and still hold onto my testimony.
Those things are not mutually exclusive, right?
Because so often, I do see people struggle with this, this person in the church
used their position of authority to abuse or control, therefore that means the
whole church is broken, right? And it's easy to draw that conclusion.
And I think that's one of the reasons that we're afraid to confront it sometimes.
But I also can say, both through my own experiences and with enough other people,
it's like, look, when we can see things in a broader range,
of course we expect in the Church that people in positions of authority will
sometimes be tempted and will fall to temptation to use that authority incorrectly.
Now, of course, one thing we know is that the moment you try to use authority
incorrectly, the priesthood power of it is gone. You can't actually abuse the priesthood.
You can abuse the name of the priesthood, but not the power of the priesthood itself.
And it would only make sense like, you know, that that will happen. We need to be aware of it.
And again, that recognition of what do we do when that's the case?
How do we help ourselves, give ourselves permission to not be manipulated while
still keeping our covenants?
Are you familiar with that concept of a whole object relations or object constancy?
Yeah. Okay, right. And I think that in this context of being able to see the
object in its entirety, and I can like this, and I can be frustrated about this other thing,
and I can want more of a certain thing, and I can want less of another thing,
that it doesn't have to be that all or nothing or black or white mentality.
And so I like what you're saying. When a human is being a human,
which they'll do, because if they are pretending to be perfect,
that's a problem right there in and of itself.
But then there is my opportunity to self-confront and grow of,
I do like this, what do I like about this?
I don't like this, and what is that bringing up for me, and what can I learn from that?
And I think that can be a really powerful thing where it's a lot easier to say
it's all bad or it's all good or that person is all bad.
But then acknowledging too, though, what I love about your book and a lot of
the population I work with, though, is that when somebody won't take ownership of anything
or apologize or they're unwilling to sit with any discomfort,
it wasn't them, it had to be you, and they do confabulate the narrative and
the story does continually change, then that in and of itself is data to work
with that refer to the person.
Absolutely, you know, and just cognizant of time, there are a couple of points
I'd love to, so one, this is an important point I'd want anyone to know.
I know that right now there's this concern of, well, what do we do if someone
reports that they're being abused?
A lot of people feel like that's such a risky situation. Well,
what if they're wrong? What if they're mistaken, what if they're lying?
You know, and I think for me it's so important to recognize that when you take
a look at the actual research,
a teeny, tiny portion, less than 4% of all cases of reported abuse turn out
to be false or unfounded.
So what it means is that you can rest assured assured that with almost absolute
certainty, by the time someone's coming to you and claiming abuse,
your response, the response that even the new policies of the church say is,
our response should be to believe the person.
Not to question them, not to say like, is it as bad as you think?
Or, you know, like, it's like, look, the way this plays out,
that, you know, the vast majority of the time, it is going to be exactly what
they say it is, and honestly, probably worse than this. Yes.
And so, our first action should always be to believe them, to take actions to
help them make sure that they're safe, and to connect them with resources that
will help them explore what their options are.
And what you will find is that one of the reasons so many people stay in abusive
relationships and even die in them is because when they report,
that's what they get, is a whole lot.
You know, because everyone's like, well, the person doesn't seem like an abuser.
Well, what does an abuser seem like publicly?
Do they have fangs and purple skin and glowing red eyes?
Like the most common profile of an abuser is the sort of person you never think
would be an abuser. Of course. That's the common profile.
And since abuse is about power and control, one of the things they're the best
at controlling is their public face.
Yeah, yeah. And they can seem amazing.
They can seem like the nicest person around. They've held all these specific
callings and people go like, well, those are all reasons to doubt this story.
I'm like, no Actually, that's what you would expect to see When the story is real, right?
Right I appreciate you saying is the I was just talking to a client before we
jumped on and we were talking about this very thing where I wish a leader even
if they had to have a Sheet to read off of that the the answer or the things
you respond back with are Tell me more and thank you for coming in and that
must be hard and what can I do to help?
And I feel like that is where the, I know it gets said often,
the judge in Israel, or well, I'll be the judge of your situation.
And that's where I'm saying that that's not the role. That's not what that is.
Well, yeah, absolutely.
And let's speak to that. You know, bishops have such a hard calling.
And I think it's important to recognize what the calling is and what the calling isn't.
You know, the way I talk about it, as a bishop, if someone in your congregation
came to you and said, I think I might have cancer.
You wouldn't say, okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go pray about it and
see if I get a revelation that says if you have cancer.
Because you don't look like you have cancer, right? Yeah. No,
Said, you don't look like you have it.
And if it turns out you do have cancer, then what I'm going to do is I'm going
to pray and I'm gonna ask Heavenly Father to inspire me with the formula for
a chemotherapy medicine.
And I'm gonna ask to inspire me and give me the knowledge of how to perform
surgery and how to make a radiation chamber for you.
You wouldn't do that. If you're a bishop, someone comes to you and says,
I think you have cancer, you'd say, let's get you to the doctors,
the people who are trained to do this.
Yes. Let's find out if you have cancer, and if so, let's get you treatment.
Yes. Abuse is no different.
Understanding, working with, healing from abuse is as complicated a system as
getting treated for cancer.
Heavenly Father does not expect a bishop to have to receive all of that and
be the everything to that person.
The bishop's job is to believe, protect,
and then to connect them with the people that Heavenly Father has brought up
with those abilities to take care of that peace the same way as if someone came to you with cancer.
It's the same thing. It's no different.
And so once you recognize that, first of all, it takes an unnecessary pressure off the bishop.
And it allows the bishop to know, what can I actually do to be effective?
And of course, the bishop is
going to be worried about the person who's accused of abuse. We should be.
They're not our first priority. The first priority is the safety of the other people.
The other thing to keep in mind is abusers don't stop on their own.
Yeah, they need someone to stop them.
If you're genuinely concerned about their abuser, this is what they need.
They need someone to stop them and to help them begin the process of changing
and turning things around.
You're not doing any favors to them by allowing them to continue to abuse.
Yeah. So there's this recognition of this is literally the kindest,
most loving thing I can do for this person.
This isn't vengeance. This isn't punishment.
It's literally helping them to change off a course that, again,
what do the scriptures say about people who are abused?
It's better that they should have a millstone hung on their neck. Yeah.
You know, we'd rather help you not have that be the way this is handled for
you. Yeah, yeah. Right? Let you change.
So perhaps your future. Well, I appreciate so much that message to the bishop,
to the stake president, to the leader, because I know you work with this population as well.
So I get to talk to a lot of different people that are with a lot of different bishops.
And you do, from our chair, you get to see somebody that says,
I don't know, let me refer you out immediately.
I'm not a marriage therapist or whatever that looks like, to the person that
says, I'm working with a couple of situations right now, where the person just,
I think that's where they see this as, this is my opportunity to have power and control.
And I'm not even saying in a nefarious way where they're twirling their handlebar
mustache, but it is intoxicating and they do, I mean, I think they do wanna
be able to say, I was right, but that's making it about them.
And I like what you're saying, it's not a them issue, that they are there to
provide a safety in a conduit to get real help.
Yeah, and that, honestly, that, any time you're in any kind of church leadership
position, that's always your first red flag to yourself, the moment you think,
this is about me accomplishing the thing. Yes.
Me being faithful, and it's usually, again, well-intentioned,
this is me being faithful, this is me serving Heavenly Father.
But when you realize, wait a second, it's never about me. Yeah. It's never about me.
Yeah. Those that's kind of the hook that that Satan uses to get us to do things
that we really shouldn't do Ryan where can we find you? I love the book.
I bought it. I want to say it's a a wonderful read It's a difficult read in
the sense that I love that you hit things right out of the gate Which is really
good and I think it's it's absolutely something that I think every I don't think
every this one of those were and I get no financial incentive,
of course from you But I feel like this is one where it would be nice to have
this on a bookshelf that you can hand to somebody I think that's what I really appreciate about it,
Yeah, I agree. For me, this is one where I'm like, I never tell people it's a good read, right?
Um, I tell people it's an important, it really is.
And I think it's one that needs to be handed out to somebody that maybe is in a situation like that.
Because again, I know that you know this so well, but when I start to even try
to validate somebody who is in an abusive situation, it is so quickly followed
by, but you know what, though, he does a lot of good to which is that intermittent
reinforcement and welcome to a trauma bond.
And I think that that's I'm grateful that that person's on that path.
But I would like to speed that up, even if it's 10, 20%, which I know is a me
issue, but I feel like that's a relatively good me issue.
Well, yeah, understandably. And I think there's that awareness of it's kind
of like, hey, it's a really great chocolate cake, except for the cow pie they put on top.
Yeah. There's this aspect of there are certain things which are qualitative changers.
Abuse is a qualitative changer. There is no amount of good we can do to excuse our abuse.
The only response, the only thing that excuses abuse is repentance and change,
and the savior's atonement.
That is the only thing that excuses it. There's no amount of penance you can
pay to make it okay to keep abusing.
And that's kind of like maybe the last point, being kind of aware of the amount
of time. I chose, really carefully, the choice to leave abuse.
It is a choice that you have. No one is saying, just as a bishop should never
tell someone, you're in an abusive relationship, you have to stay.
It's also not the bishop's choice to tell you, you have to go.
To help you understand that's a choice that you can make.
That it's something that's available to you. and that the Church should be fully
supportive of you to help you make that choice, if you determine that's the
choice you need to make. Yeah.
Is available to you, it is a righteous choice if you choose it.
There's not a certain level of abuse where the abuse has to be this bad for you to make a choice.
And if it's only kind of mild to medium and not picante, you can't make that
choice. No. Again, abuse is a qualitative changer.
Once abuse enters a relationship, you do have the choice to leave that relationship
without violating your covenants, because the abuse violated the covenant. Ah, well said.
Yeah, yeah, and at any point in time, if you feel that would be better for you.
Now, of course, there's a what would I do if I left? There's all those scary pieces.
Sure. And that's a whole other conversation.
And usually what I find is there's
a lot more ways to work out those scary pieces than any of us imagine.
Absolutely. The whole idea is that if you are feeling like this is something
you might want to have, a choice you might want to make, what I want people
to know is, by the time you're wondering, literally it's a choice that if you
were to make it, God would endorse.
And what he asked those of us in the church and those of us who are professionals,
he asked for us to help remove the obstacles that are in place for you making
that choice if you choose to make it. And I think that's a really important thing to understand.
Well said. Ryan, I really appreciate your time today and I would love to have
you back on and talk about those next steps and some of that as well. I would love to.
Okay, no, and I'll have all the links to where we can find you in the show notes.
Where's an easy website for somebody that's listening and where can they find you?
So, two easy ways to find me. I do have a Facebook page. It's just Ways to Leave Abuse.
I tend to post things there. It's also a good way to contact me.
Um, and then also if you're looking, probably the easiest place to buy my book is on Amazon.
Perfect. Okay. All right. The, the choice to leave abuse, Ryan Anderson. Thanks so much.
Thank you. Okay. We'll talk to you again soon. All right. Much appreciated.
Music.