WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.840
Music.

00:00:05.854 --> 00:00:09.474
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 98 of Waking Up to Narcissism.

00:00:09.734 --> 00:00:12.434
I am your host, Tony Overvey. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,

00:00:12.534 --> 00:00:16.754
host of the Virtual Couch podcast, which highly recommend the episode that I

00:00:16.754 --> 00:00:18.014
put out yesterday on the Virtual Couch.

00:00:18.114 --> 00:00:22.294
We're talking about how to gain emotional intelligence and how important that is.

00:00:22.574 --> 00:00:25.274
There's a really funny fact that I will probably bring over into an episode

00:00:25.274 --> 00:00:29.374
here on Waking Up to Narcissism soon, but there's some research that shows that

00:00:29.374 --> 00:00:32.074
95% of people identify themselves as self-aware,

00:00:33.314 --> 00:00:36.974
but this A particular social psychologist did, I think, a five-year research

00:00:37.374 --> 00:00:42.194
project and discovered that according to their metrics, only 10 to 15% of people

00:00:42.394 --> 00:00:43.114
are actually self-aware.

00:00:44.334 --> 00:00:48.494
Again, 95% of people say, I'm totally self-aware, except for when they're not.

00:00:49.414 --> 00:00:52.474
And I think that probably does apply more in this world of emotional immaturity

00:00:52.474 --> 00:00:54.154
or narcissism, but I digress.

00:00:54.454 --> 00:00:58.634
So go to the show notes and find the link tree in the show notes,

00:00:58.854 --> 00:01:02.614
and please, or just Just go to tonyoverbay.com and sign up for my newsletter,

00:01:03.154 --> 00:01:04.974
putting out a lot of fun content with that.

00:01:05.694 --> 00:01:10.314
And you can also find out more about upcoming courses and programs.

00:01:10.514 --> 00:01:15.094
And my Magnetic Marriage course is about to relaunch, and I'm really excited

00:01:15.094 --> 00:01:16.594
about that. There's so much there.

00:01:17.454 --> 00:01:19.814
And I know I've said that on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,

00:01:19.814 --> 00:01:22.814
you might be in a challenging relationship and I'm not just trying to make a

00:01:22.814 --> 00:01:26.314
sales pitch, but I still go to the place where we don't know what we don't know.

00:01:26.314 --> 00:01:30.814
And so many people don't even know what even a healthy relationship is supposed to look like.

00:01:30.994 --> 00:01:34.634
So I think there's a lot of value there in this course because I try to take

00:01:34.634 --> 00:01:36.854
it from the, of course we don't know what we don't know.

00:01:37.194 --> 00:01:42.374
Let me help even show you what a healthy relationship would look like and I'm

00:01:42.374 --> 00:01:44.074
going to shoot on you should look like.

00:01:44.754 --> 00:01:48.154
And I want your feedback. Please continue to send an email. I get a lot of emails

00:01:48.154 --> 00:01:49.994
from this podcast in particular,

00:01:49.994 --> 00:01:52.734
and I just so appreciate them because I think they're coming from people that

00:01:52.734 --> 00:01:56.834
want to be heard and they want to be seen and I do hear you and I see you and

00:01:56.834 --> 00:02:00.294
I read everything that is sent in and I just I really appreciate it.

00:02:00.494 --> 00:02:06.094
So today's guest is a gentleman named Ryan Anderson and he has a lot of letters

00:02:06.094 --> 00:02:07.854
behind his name, very impressive ones too.

00:02:08.434 --> 00:02:15.754
He has a PhD, he is also LMFT like myself and he has a MedFT which I don't know

00:02:15.754 --> 00:02:20.234
that one and he's director at Telos NeuroHealth and the Executive Director at

00:02:20.234 --> 00:02:21.674
Telos Discovery Space Center.

00:02:22.374 --> 00:02:26.954
And he the space center thing sounds amazing already, but I've been all over

00:02:26.954 --> 00:02:29.694
the Telos website and it's very impressive.

00:02:29.874 --> 00:02:32.614
And I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well.

00:02:33.434 --> 00:02:36.414
So Ryan has a bachelor's degree in marriage, family and human development from

00:02:36.414 --> 00:02:37.274
Brigham Young University.

00:02:37.514 --> 00:02:42.194
And he got his PhD in medical family therapy, which was something we talked about in the interview.

00:02:42.274 --> 00:02:46.054
I wasn't even familiar that that was a degree from East Carolina University.

00:02:46.274 --> 00:02:50.114
He has 10 publications, including two books, and today we're going to talk about

00:02:50.114 --> 00:02:54.514
one of those books, and it's a very important book called The Choice to Leave Abuse.

00:02:55.016 --> 00:02:59.536
And just the topic that we're talking about today, abuse, is something that

00:02:59.536 --> 00:03:02.216
I just I do not think we're talking enough about.

00:03:02.696 --> 00:03:06.896
There are so many parts of this interview that I want to just make clips and

00:03:06.896 --> 00:03:08.176
just put out there on their own.

00:03:08.416 --> 00:03:12.796
The first of which is one where I had Lori Finlay do an amazing job a few weeks

00:03:12.796 --> 00:03:14.076
ago talking about epigenetics.

00:03:14.776 --> 00:03:19.736
And Ryan has a lot of his background is also in studying epigenetics and the

00:03:19.736 --> 00:03:27.656
way that we store abuse and trauma and how that affects our very genetic makeup.

00:03:28.056 --> 00:03:31.876
But he gives a lot of hope, as Laurie did, on ways that you can overcome that.

00:03:32.036 --> 00:03:34.136
So I think that part alone is just incredible.

00:03:34.736 --> 00:03:38.396
And back to wanting your feedback, I would love your stories in particular about

00:03:38.396 --> 00:03:41.276
this issue because in my private women's Facebook group,

00:03:41.656 --> 00:03:45.236
somebody recently asked if their church or ecclesiastical leader had been supportive

00:03:45.236 --> 00:03:50.156
because she didn't feel like hers had, or if anybody had gone to their church

00:03:50.156 --> 00:03:53.316
leader for help in any way and had it not gone well.

00:03:53.436 --> 00:03:56.396
And unfortunately, there were a lot of examples of leaders who I know are trying

00:03:56.396 --> 00:04:00.876
their best, but who completely invalidated somebody that I know it took a lot

00:04:00.876 --> 00:04:03.876
of courage for them to even go into their bishop or their priest or their pastor

00:04:03.876 --> 00:04:05.376
into their office to begin with.

00:04:05.676 --> 00:04:09.416
So then to be challenged on whether or not they were to be believed,

00:04:09.856 --> 00:04:13.796
or if they're hearing things like, do you know what this could do to your family?

00:04:14.016 --> 00:04:16.696
Or to be told that, well, your spouse doesn't really look like somebody that

00:04:16.696 --> 00:04:17.676
would do something like that.

00:04:18.156 --> 00:04:21.276
It only makes things worse and it keeps a problem like this that needs to be

00:04:21.276 --> 00:04:23.916
addressed right now further in the shadows.

00:04:24.556 --> 00:04:27.336
And it reminds me, I still remember one of the first women that I ever worked

00:04:27.336 --> 00:04:32.096
with who told me about mental abuse, sexual coercion and spiritual abuse as

00:04:32.096 --> 00:04:33.976
well as financial control that she was going through.

00:04:34.276 --> 00:04:38.676
And I eventually ended up meeting at some point with the husband and he was

00:04:38.676 --> 00:04:40.216
nice for about 10 or 15 minutes.

00:04:40.376 --> 00:04:43.116
But when then he saw that wasn't simply just going to validate him,

00:04:43.196 --> 00:04:44.196
then he got really aggressive.

00:04:44.936 --> 00:04:48.196
And I remember the button that he pushed that I just didn't even know where

00:04:48.196 --> 00:04:51.376
this reaction came from was when he was telling me that I would do the exact

00:04:51.376 --> 00:04:54.976
same thing that he does to my wife if she was like his wife.

00:04:55.358 --> 00:04:59.618
And this was over 15 years ago. And I didn't know this population like I do now.

00:05:00.118 --> 00:05:03.238
And sure enough, I reacted, I fully engaged with them. And I left that session

00:05:03.238 --> 00:05:07.638
so angry and frustrated, which I now know was exactly what he wanted.

00:05:08.098 --> 00:05:11.618
And I mentioned this because he went on to serve in some fairly high callings

00:05:11.618 --> 00:05:12.878
or positions in his church.

00:05:13.418 --> 00:05:19.018
And later, I worked with a couple of people that had gone to him for ecclesiastical

00:05:19.018 --> 00:05:21.498
support. And it was kind of a mixed bag.

00:05:21.818 --> 00:05:24.258
If people were nice to him, he was nice to them. If you weren't,

00:05:24.638 --> 00:05:28.618
then he had a tendency to break you down and do it what he said was in the name

00:05:28.618 --> 00:05:32.038
of God, which just killed me. It really did.

00:05:32.458 --> 00:05:37.138
And I guess I also mentioned this as well as to say, I know people are interacting

00:05:37.138 --> 00:05:41.158
with people in positions of authority who are not being helpful or supportive.

00:05:41.818 --> 00:05:46.758
And so if that is you, I can imagine that maybe you don't feel like there's

00:05:46.758 --> 00:05:49.878
anywhere you can go and that there isn't anyone you can talk to.

00:05:50.138 --> 00:05:54.538
And so I want you to really hear this interview with Ryan and I today,

00:05:54.618 --> 00:05:56.218
because we talk about that a lot.

00:05:56.638 --> 00:05:59.178
And Ryan is coming, let me just, very upfront and transparent.

00:05:59.618 --> 00:06:02.718
Ryan's coming at this from a position as an active faithful member of the LDS,

00:06:02.918 --> 00:06:06.298
or formerly known as Mormon Church, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

00:06:06.778 --> 00:06:10.998
But this isn't about the doctrine of the church per se, but it's more about

00:06:10.998 --> 00:06:14.538
an abuse of religious power and what abuse can do to the body.

00:06:14.538 --> 00:06:19.198
And also, though, how you can find hope and how you can repair.

00:06:19.898 --> 00:06:24.198
And then if you are in any position of church leadership,

00:06:24.518 --> 00:06:27.858
I think this is going to be so beneficial because it's going to give information

00:06:27.858 --> 00:06:32.378
to uninformed church leaders for any and all faiths to know how to better support

00:06:32.378 --> 00:06:36.218
members of the congregation who come into your office needing help. It's okay to refer out.

00:06:36.498 --> 00:06:38.798
It's okay to say, I don't know, but let me find somebody who does.

00:06:39.218 --> 00:06:41.838
Because the bottom line, and Ryan talks about this in the interview,

00:06:42.038 --> 00:06:48.038
is that he has all the data to show that something like people who come in and

00:06:48.038 --> 00:06:50.178
they are alleging abuse, that in those situations,

00:06:50.738 --> 00:06:55.118
over 97% of them, I believe, was the number, the abuses turns out to be true.

00:06:55.678 --> 00:06:58.598
So if you are a church leader and you feel like you need to determine whether

00:06:58.598 --> 00:07:02.138
or not you thank the woman or the man in front of you who is finally claiming

00:07:02.138 --> 00:07:05.258
struggles or challenges in the home, and there's mention of any type of abuse,

00:07:05.618 --> 00:07:08.818
and you feel like you need to be the one that will, I'll have the final say

00:07:08.818 --> 00:07:13.318
on that, stop right there and get them help because I really do.

00:07:13.398 --> 00:07:18.038
I hope and I absolutely pray that you get to someday say that you had one of

00:07:18.038 --> 00:07:20.098
those one or 2% of people who,

00:07:20.598 --> 00:07:25.058
it turned out maybe had inflated the narrative because of whatever the reason

00:07:25.058 --> 00:07:27.678
was, their own childhood wounding, or that was the way that they,

00:07:27.878 --> 00:07:29.698
the only way they felt like they could be seen or understood.

00:07:30.598 --> 00:07:35.178
Because in reality, chances are you'll probably never have that happen.

00:07:35.338 --> 00:07:39.038
And if you do, then you can feel good about pointing that person to the right

00:07:39.038 --> 00:07:41.418
resources because you did everything that you could do.

00:07:42.206 --> 00:07:45.466
Let me get off the soapbox and let me just read off the Amazon description of

00:07:45.466 --> 00:07:50.466
Ryan's book, and then I'll just ease right into the interview with Ryan Anderson.

00:07:50.746 --> 00:07:53.486
And this episode is also on YouTube as well, so if you're interested in watching

00:07:53.486 --> 00:07:57.646
rather than only listening, please go there and subscribe and all that fun stuff.

00:07:58.606 --> 00:08:04.926
So from the description off of Amazon, it says, God strongly condemns any form of abuse.

00:08:05.186 --> 00:08:07.846
In recent years, the struggles of Latter-day Saints and abusive relationships

00:08:07.846 --> 00:08:08.986
have made national headlines.

00:08:09.546 --> 00:08:12.026
The media attention has highlighted a deeply unfortunate perception,

00:08:12.586 --> 00:08:15.586
many Latter-day Saints fear that by choosing to leave an abusive relationship,

00:08:16.086 --> 00:08:17.806
they are at risk of breaking their covenants with God.

00:08:18.346 --> 00:08:20.886
Mental health professionals and law enforcement officers who work with Latter-day

00:08:21.206 --> 00:08:24.726
Saint populations attest to the number of people who continue to be hurt,

00:08:24.966 --> 00:08:28.746
humiliated, and even killed because they believe it is their righteous obligation

00:08:28.746 --> 00:08:30.466
to endure abuse to the end.

00:08:30.986 --> 00:08:32.606
This damaging misperception and

00:08:32.606 --> 00:08:35.946
the traditions that have helped create and maintain it must be corrected.

00:08:35.946 --> 00:08:39.866
With a direct and straightforward discussion of the doctrines and the teachings

00:08:39.866 --> 00:08:43.466
about abuse, this book not only provides clear guidance for bishops and other

00:08:43.466 --> 00:08:47.106
local leaders on how to respond to abuse, but will also help you discover God's

00:08:47.106 --> 00:08:49.986
true feelings about abuse and the love He has for all who suffer.

00:08:50.526 --> 00:08:53.726
Learn to identify the signs of abuse in your own relationships and in others,

00:08:54.226 --> 00:08:57.486
overcome roadblocks that may be hindering escape from an abusive situation,

00:08:57.766 --> 00:09:00.586
and follow the path of healing in mind, body, and spirit.

00:09:00.586 --> 00:09:05.506
So with that said, if any of this resonates with you, then just please know

00:09:05.506 --> 00:09:10.286
you're not alone and reach out and find help, resources, whatever you can do.

00:09:10.746 --> 00:09:15.926
But that first step of raising your emotional baseline and starting to take

00:09:15.926 --> 00:09:20.286
more control of the situation that you're in is just from starting to become more informed.

00:09:20.486 --> 00:09:23.286
So I'm grateful you're here and I think you'll get a lot from this interview.

00:09:23.406 --> 00:09:26.206
So let me go now to my interview with Ryan Anderson.

00:09:29.706 --> 00:09:31.846
You were saying you're having a busy morning, but I don't think I can quite

00:09:31.846 --> 00:09:34.066
just feign laughter just to make it sound fun.

00:09:35.046 --> 00:09:37.326
Oh, if I could tell you some of the adventures I've had this morning.

00:09:37.586 --> 00:09:40.386
Okay, is it in the therapeutic world or are you just talking family?

00:09:40.586 --> 00:09:44.906
Okay, all right. Yeah. So maybe start there. You are an LMFT and a PhD, right?

00:09:45.786 --> 00:09:49.686
Yeah, that's right. I got my master's degree from Brigham Young University and

00:09:49.686 --> 00:09:54.906
then my PhD is actually in medical family therapy from East Carolina University.

00:09:55.826 --> 00:10:00.246
That's a crossover of working on mental health and physical health issues and

00:10:00.246 --> 00:10:01.646
the way they interact with each other.

00:10:01.746 --> 00:10:05.226
I did not know this was a thing, Ryan. So tell me more about this. What was that like?

00:10:06.044 --> 00:10:09.924
Oh, it was really great. I think for me, kind of what got me interested in that

00:10:09.924 --> 00:10:14.764
is, in my family growing up, there were a couple of significant medical issues as well,

00:10:15.144 --> 00:10:19.484
and I saw, you know, that there were emotional issues that were connected with

00:10:19.484 --> 00:10:23.724
that, and that there was this reciprocal relationship between the two.

00:10:23.724 --> 00:10:26.324
And so that was something that always interested me.

00:10:27.264 --> 00:10:30.504
And when I was finishing up my master's degree and thinking I might want to

00:10:30.504 --> 00:10:37.204
get a PhD, I found that East Carolina University had just offered the very first PhD of the kind.

00:10:37.864 --> 00:10:42.544
So I was actually part of the first graduating class in medical family therapy

00:10:42.544 --> 00:10:47.304
in the United States, possibly in the world, although I'm not sure if someone

00:10:47.304 --> 00:10:50.124
else jumped it somewhere else in the world and we just didn't see it.

00:10:50.364 --> 00:10:53.424
But that's been kind of fascinating. And I've always loved to take a look can

00:10:53.424 --> 00:10:58.264
understand that really strong connection between the physical and the psychological.

00:10:58.904 --> 00:11:02.924
I work with a lot of people that have extreme emotional immaturity,

00:11:03.084 --> 00:11:06.624
bordering on narcissistic traits and tendencies, so this is the part where I

00:11:06.624 --> 00:11:10.724
was ready for you to, first time it was ever that a course, and you were top

00:11:10.724 --> 00:11:12.304
of the class, or was that the case?

00:11:12.924 --> 00:11:14.584
Well, I did get a 4.0.

00:11:15.844 --> 00:11:18.924
Okay, so see, that's a healthy ego, right? The first graduating class.

00:11:18.984 --> 00:11:24.464
But I will say that my classmates were equally wonderful and accomplished,

00:11:24.724 --> 00:11:26.664
and they've gone on to do some amazing things.

00:11:26.784 --> 00:11:31.644
So I kind of saw us as kind of rather than hierarchical, it was sort of three

00:11:31.644 --> 00:11:34.284
musketeers stepping across the line together. Okay.

00:11:34.604 --> 00:11:41.224
I like that. I like that a lot. What classes were maybe significant in a medical PhD versus a PsyD?

00:11:42.084 --> 00:11:46.804
So one of the things that we did a lot of studying on were on medical health disparities.

00:11:47.364 --> 00:11:51.644
The idea that, for example, women in general have worse medical outcomes than men.

00:11:52.244 --> 00:11:55.584
And it's not because there's something inherently different about women,

00:11:55.584 --> 00:11:58.744
but it has to do with the way they interact with the healthcare system.

00:11:59.704 --> 00:12:05.184
Minorities have worse healthcare outcomes than people who are in a majority

00:12:05.184 --> 00:12:10.024
population, and a lot of that has to do with not just individual psychology,

00:12:10.164 --> 00:12:12.764
but interpersonal and larger system pieces.

00:12:13.504 --> 00:12:17.704
And so a lot of what we were studying is as people have health problems,

00:12:18.284 --> 00:12:21.824
and as they interface with the healthcare system, first of all,

00:12:21.984 --> 00:12:24.984
what are those differential aspects they're going to experience?

00:12:25.204 --> 00:12:26.704
How does that affect their outcomes?

00:12:27.304 --> 00:12:30.584
And what can we do to improve that experience?

00:12:31.144 --> 00:12:36.484
So there was a lot of study that we did on that with understanding how those

00:12:36.484 --> 00:12:40.984
things occur and how you can help to improve them. So what's a good example

00:12:40.984 --> 00:12:43.184
of something like that that you studied or ran into?

00:12:44.079 --> 00:12:51.939
Yeah, so for example, if you are a woman with some, say you have pancreatic cancer,

00:12:52.239 --> 00:12:58.759
and you live in the South, you are more likely to have a healthcare professional

00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:03.119
respond to you with, well, you're just hysterical, or this is just anxiety, or this is just...

00:13:03.119 --> 00:13:08.699
Okay. So that by the time you actually have your diagnosis of cancer and someone's

00:13:08.699 --> 00:13:10.039
doing something to try to help you,

00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:17.739
you are much more likely to be at stage four cancer than a man or than a woman,

00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.319
say, in Portland or in Washington State.

00:13:22.319 --> 00:13:28.419
Or also, similarly, there are different types of cancer that the specific cancer

00:13:28.419 --> 00:13:33.559
cells are fed by certain stress hormones inside the body.

00:13:34.179 --> 00:13:36.999
So for example, we found for several types of breast cancer,

00:13:37.659 --> 00:13:42.539
the quality of the relationship and the trust between a woman and her marital

00:13:42.539 --> 00:13:46.659
partner actually helped to increase survival.

00:13:47.659 --> 00:13:55.619
Whereas stress and lack of trust or betrayal actually shows an increased fatality rate amongst them.

00:13:56.219 --> 00:14:00.259
So there are all these pieces where you see that there's so many ways that relationships

00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:05.159
and emotions are connected to actual health outcomes.

00:14:05.779 --> 00:14:09.599
And also, and this comes into some of the work that I'm doing on the idea of

00:14:09.599 --> 00:14:15.979
abuse systems. And they understand people and the boxes that they put people

00:14:15.979 --> 00:14:18.579
in, who they favor and who they disfavor.

00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:25.899
Absolutely has a big impact on people's outcomes, which could be improved if

00:14:25.899 --> 00:14:27.579
we were to improve the systems.

00:14:28.339 --> 00:14:32.559
I love the book and it's the choice to leave abuse, but boy we just hit on something there.

00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:37.479
The Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, so many people there are in these emotionally

00:14:37.479 --> 00:14:41.859
immature relationships where they are continually trying to give their partner

00:14:41.859 --> 00:14:44.739
that aha moment, but really handing them buttons to push

00:14:45.079 --> 00:14:49.639
to then be the target of gaslighting, to then feel emotionally unstable,

00:14:49.839 --> 00:14:53.439
and then the cortisol is just flowing freely in the brain.

00:14:53.839 --> 00:14:57.399
And I just did an amygdala hijack episode recently where I was talking about

00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.319
that correlation with the hippocampus and short-term memory.

00:15:00.839 --> 00:15:03.399
And if things can't even make it there, then they're not gonna make it into

00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:06.239
long-term memory and that person is gonna be in the spider flight state.

00:15:06.239 --> 00:15:10.319
Is that kind of that work as well, of figuring out how all that plays together?

00:15:10.999 --> 00:15:16.359
Absolutely, and it even goes further. I believe in my book I talk a little bit

00:15:16.359 --> 00:15:19.179
about the concept of epigenes and epigenetics.

00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:23.879
And this is relatively new science, where we recognize in our genes,

00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:29.319
every single one of us, we have the genes that are currently expressed and turned on.

00:15:29.619 --> 00:15:33.719
But we have a wide variety of other things that could be expressed.

00:15:33.719 --> 00:15:39.019
And epigenes are, you can sort of think of them as like metagenes,

00:15:39.099 --> 00:15:40.679
they literally surround your genes.

00:15:41.469 --> 00:15:45.369
And there are different things that can happen that can activate your epigenes,

00:15:45.449 --> 00:15:52.849
which then change the way your genes are expressing, literally altering your genetic phenotype.

00:15:53.969 --> 00:15:58.089
And so one of the things that we found, for example, women who are living in

00:15:58.089 --> 00:16:03.569
relationships with men who gaslight, men who have sex affairs, men who abuse,

00:16:04.229 --> 00:16:08.629
not only does this have this emotional impact, but it goes all the way down

00:16:08.629 --> 00:16:11.809
to the epigenes and the genes. And what do we see?

00:16:12.429 --> 00:16:17.289
We see that they begin to alter and now they're having digestive issues.

00:16:17.569 --> 00:16:18.669
Now they're having pain.

00:16:19.149 --> 00:16:22.809
Now they're having chronic insomnia. And it's not just psychological.

00:16:23.389 --> 00:16:26.809
Literally, what's going on in the genes have changed.

00:16:27.389 --> 00:16:31.429
And so for me, this is one of the reasons that raising awareness of this is

00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:37.729
so important, is that abuse of any kind affects us all the way down to the very

00:16:37.729 --> 00:16:39.949
building blocks of who we are.

00:16:40.329 --> 00:16:44.469
Now, the good news is there's room for healing that can go down that deep as well.

00:16:44.989 --> 00:16:48.409
But we have to create the right circumstances for that to occur.

00:16:49.449 --> 00:16:53.889
This is so perfect. I had somebody that just was starting to lay the groundwork

00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:57.009
about epigenetics a few weeks ago, and so I think where you're at with that,

00:16:57.169 --> 00:17:01.729
it just continues to speak to this audience that hear the podcast.

00:17:02.149 --> 00:17:05.969
And I want to get into the specifics of your book too, but I often find that

00:17:05.969 --> 00:17:09.189
people start to hear this and by the very people that need to hear it because

00:17:09.189 --> 00:17:13.049
of the Situations or that they've been in now I hear these sort of thing and

00:17:13.049 --> 00:17:16.489
start to be terrified Do you run into that and how do you start to address it?

00:17:16.989 --> 00:17:21.869
Sure. I think a lot of people are worried that okay Well, if what has happened

00:17:21.869 --> 00:17:28.089
to me has altered me down all the way to the genes then I'm doomed, right? That's great.

00:17:28.289 --> 00:17:34.969
So I have I have been altered and I'm never going to heal And I can understand

00:17:34.969 --> 00:17:40.669
how people would feel that, but the good news is epigenes work both ways.

00:17:41.429 --> 00:17:46.109
So, for example, when you put yourself in a situation where you are genuinely safe.

00:17:46.825 --> 00:17:52.925
Where there are trustworthy people around you, where you are actually valued and treasured.

00:17:53.345 --> 00:17:57.585
When you allow yourself to recognize that that is a possibility,

00:17:58.225 --> 00:18:01.165
and you make the brave journey to get there.

00:18:01.985 --> 00:18:06.545
Then all of those things that could work on you to change your genes in a negative

00:18:06.545 --> 00:18:10.585
way and begin to change in a positive way as well.

00:18:11.165 --> 00:18:16.465
So the good news is it's flexible, It's meltable in both directions.

00:18:16.685 --> 00:18:22.025
So while it's scary, it's also a reason to have hope because no matter how much

00:18:22.025 --> 00:18:25.745
someone has hurt you, no matter how it has altered you.

00:18:26.525 --> 00:18:34.865
You remain malleable, plastic, able to change if you are able to put yourself

00:18:34.865 --> 00:18:38.785
in a situation where that change is safe to make. Yeah.

00:18:38.965 --> 00:18:43.345
And so that's the other side of the coin that I think is really important to recognize.

00:18:43.745 --> 00:18:49.445
I love that too and forgive me for a trope I enjoy saying on my podcast but

00:18:49.445 --> 00:18:53.005
we go from we didn't know what we didn't know to now we know but we don't do

00:18:53.005 --> 00:18:56.905
a lot about it and I think that's a really scary place to be but it's part of the process.

00:18:57.005 --> 00:19:00.545
Then we go to we do more than we don't and then eventually we become so that's

00:19:00.545 --> 00:19:04.005
where I like to say anybody that is hearing Ryan and I right now is on that

00:19:04.005 --> 00:19:06.825
path of healing even if that feels overwhelming.

00:19:06.825 --> 00:19:09.985
So I love that anything that you're saying right now and somebody's hearing

00:19:09.985 --> 00:19:14.245
it and it does feel scary and that you are a literal expert in this field that

00:19:14.245 --> 00:19:18.025
says, all right, that things can change, that neuroplasticity is real.

00:19:18.702 --> 00:19:22.382
Well, and I love what you're saying, and I want to fully endorse it,

00:19:22.442 --> 00:19:25.502
saying in fact, by allowing it to be a little bit at a time,

00:19:25.822 --> 00:19:28.582
that's how to open up the possibility of change.

00:19:29.042 --> 00:19:34.182
Oftentimes where we get stuck is when we think we've got to hit that final mark first.

00:19:34.522 --> 00:19:37.842
And all we experience is despair and disappointment.

00:19:38.562 --> 00:19:41.802
And we conclude, well, there was no healing for me.

00:19:42.122 --> 00:19:45.622
Instead of, you know what, I'm trying to go from completely miserable to only

00:19:45.622 --> 00:19:47.702
sort of almost completely miserable.

00:19:48.322 --> 00:19:50.382
And that's the thing forward from there.

00:19:51.282 --> 00:19:55.882
Yeah. And okay, now you're validating me, which I will not validate you and I appreciate it.

00:19:55.962 --> 00:20:00.282
But I kind of make this joke, Ryan, that that that's not a very sexy sales pitch,

00:20:00.282 --> 00:20:02.202
so it doesn't sell courses or books.

00:20:02.522 --> 00:20:05.262
I almost feel like, okay, I, am I the only one saying, yeah,

00:20:05.262 --> 00:20:08.482
it's going to take a little while or quite a while, but welcome to the path

00:20:08.482 --> 00:20:09.922
and you are where you need to be.

00:20:10.002 --> 00:20:13.342
And when people say, how long is it going to take as long as it takes and where

00:20:13.342 --> 00:20:15.842
should I be right now, right where you are and all those sorts of things.

00:20:15.842 --> 00:20:18.122
But it makes sense though, because it is going to take that long.

00:20:18.262 --> 00:20:20.182
Anything else is artificial, right?

00:20:20.462 --> 00:20:26.382
Anything else is selling somebody something that is illusory at best.

00:20:26.722 --> 00:20:30.562
You know, and especially I think it's important to recognize healing is also

00:20:30.562 --> 00:20:34.682
not entirely linear, right? You're going to walk forward, you're going to be

00:20:34.682 --> 00:20:38.962
feeling a whole lot better, and then you're going to run into something that catches you off guard.

00:20:39.422 --> 00:20:42.862
And you're going to feel like you lost so much ground, and you're going to say,

00:20:43.042 --> 00:20:47.982
oh no, does this mean that all of my growth was false, that none of this matters?

00:20:48.362 --> 00:20:52.982
The interesting thing is that trauma bakes at multiple speeds.

00:20:54.902 --> 00:21:01.522
It gets buried on different levels. And you know, some trauma can only kind

00:21:01.522 --> 00:21:07.302
of surface and show itself once you've been safe enough, and you heal the health.

00:21:07.902 --> 00:21:12.282
Where it goes, okay, here's this other thing. How about that?

00:21:12.422 --> 00:21:14.802
Since we've gotten some progress on these other things.

00:21:15.662 --> 00:21:18.042
And so there's this recognition of...

00:21:18.568 --> 00:21:22.188
Okay, as I'm healing, I'm going to hit things that feel like they pushed me

00:21:22.188 --> 00:21:25.028
back, or I didn't think that was going to bother me, or it didn't bother me

00:21:25.028 --> 00:21:26.908
before, but it does now. Yeah.

00:21:27.428 --> 00:21:31.428
That's just this natural process of your body saying, the only reason I'm letting

00:21:31.428 --> 00:21:35.408
you feel this pain now, instead of completely numbing it out,

00:21:35.748 --> 00:21:40.208
is because I now believe there's a possibility of a heal. Oh, okay. I like that.

00:21:40.548 --> 00:21:44.468
And so you've come far enough that I can now bring this piece up,

00:21:44.468 --> 00:21:48.248
some trust that this isn't going to kill us.

00:21:49.068 --> 00:21:53.828
This is actually going to be progressive. And so it's kind of that sign like,

00:21:53.928 --> 00:21:59.408
you know, when you have had severe burns and your nerves are all gone,

00:21:59.428 --> 00:22:00.868
and then as you start to heal, suddenly,

00:22:01.108 --> 00:22:04.788
oh, I can start to hurt here now, or feel sore there now, or all those kinds

00:22:04.788 --> 00:22:07.128
of things. It's the same process.

00:22:07.748 --> 00:22:12.028
So it doesn't mean that you're losing ground. It means that your body is able

00:22:12.028 --> 00:22:19.388
to recognize, I can now go there and still maintain integrity and hope and this is a path forward.

00:22:19.728 --> 00:22:21.948
In fact, if anything, it's a good sign.

00:22:22.508 --> 00:22:25.888
Yeah, I love that. I do. It makes me think of a pretty pedestrian example,

00:22:26.108 --> 00:22:29.968
but I worked with recently where somebody just said, the only thing I want to do is be an artist.

00:22:30.128 --> 00:22:33.848
And if I only had all the tools to create art and then I would be happy.

00:22:34.068 --> 00:22:36.888
And the people in their circle were trying to tell them, well,

00:22:36.928 --> 00:22:39.368
but don't you want to do this instead or this or this? So finally,

00:22:39.448 --> 00:22:40.848
everybody, it seems like, was on board.

00:22:41.368 --> 00:22:44.588
OK, we're going to support this person. And then once they had the freedom to

00:22:44.588 --> 00:22:47.908
do that, then they got to that point and realized, actually,

00:22:47.908 --> 00:22:49.168
this isn't really what I wanted to do.

00:22:49.308 --> 00:22:54.068
But they could never get there until they'd had that freedom to then finally just be.

00:22:54.308 --> 00:22:57.668
So I like what you're saying about it's going to be a good thing to if it's

00:22:57.668 --> 00:22:58.988
hard to sell that part too, right?

00:22:59.028 --> 00:23:02.308
I guess that is just wait. It might even get more interesting.

00:23:02.488 --> 00:23:04.648
I guess that's a positive spin. Yeah.

00:23:05.668 --> 00:23:11.168
The one thing we always recognize is, look, we, when people are struggling emotionally,

00:23:11.328 --> 00:23:13.188
what you notice is they tend to clamp down.

00:23:13.988 --> 00:23:18.908
And that their range of emotion gets really small. Maybe they're depressed all

00:23:18.908 --> 00:23:21.428
the time, but they're kind of the same depressed all the time.

00:23:22.108 --> 00:23:27.028
Maybe they're anxious all the time, right? And so what's happened is the range has shrunk.

00:23:28.068 --> 00:23:32.968
Healing is your range growing, and being able to experience a whole range of

00:23:32.968 --> 00:23:38.548
emotions, and to go, for me to feel what I'm feeling. I can manage this.

00:23:38.748 --> 00:23:42.308
I can manage feeling really high. I can manage feeling really happy.

00:23:42.708 --> 00:23:47.228
I can manage feeling hopeful. I don't have to shut that down out of fear of disappointment.

00:23:47.848 --> 00:23:52.748
I can feel really lousy. I can feel really crappy. I can survive that.

00:23:53.248 --> 00:23:55.768
I can deal with that. I know that's going to end.

00:23:56.388 --> 00:24:00.848
And so that's how you know your mental health is improving is because your range expands.

00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:06.579
I love that. I had someone that not long ago, they found themselves in a position

00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:11.139
where they wanted to have the dance parties with their kids that they hadn't felt in a long time.

00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:17.459
So that was an amazing thing, but then what it also then led to was there were some lower lows.

00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:20.819
And so then we would have these, I thought these fun discussions,

00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:26.419
fun, these good discussions about are the high highs worth experiencing the lows?

00:24:26.419 --> 00:24:30.339
And then the person, once they really had the right tools, was able to then

00:24:30.339 --> 00:24:33.879
even work through the lows and see some growth there, so I really like that.

00:24:33.999 --> 00:24:37.599
Let's talk about your book, because I feel like I could just talk to you in general for a long time.

00:24:37.899 --> 00:24:40.759
I know, right? If you're okay, let me read the publisher description,

00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.219
and I would love for you to then go wherever you want to go,

00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:46.179
because I think we've set a nice base to work from.

00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:52.099
So it says, "'God strongly condemns any form of abuse, "'and in recent years,

00:24:52.199 --> 00:24:55.079
the struggles of Latter-day Saints "'and abusive relationships has made national

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:58.559
headlines. The media attention has highlighted a deeply unfortunate perception.

00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:01.819
Many Latter-day Saints fear that by choosing to leave an abusive relationship,

00:25:02.219 --> 00:25:05.259
they're at risk of breaking their covenants with God." Which I gotta tell you,

00:25:05.299 --> 00:25:10.619
Ryan, I so appreciate that because I love the work I do, but we have to work

00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.219
through some extra layers, I think, with that alone.

00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.119
And then you just say, mental health professionals and law enforcement officers

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.779
who work with Latter-day Saint populations attest to the number of people who,

00:25:19.399 --> 00:25:22.579
continue to be hurt, humiliated, and even killed because they believe that it's

00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:26.199
their religious obligation to endure abuse to the end.

00:25:26.539 --> 00:25:30.899
So, yeah, jump in anywhere you want there and tell me what led you to write

00:25:30.899 --> 00:25:33.979
the book and I just I so appreciate this working with this population.

00:25:34.399 --> 00:25:40.579
For me, what led me to this book was a combination of professional experiences

00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:46.319
but also personal experiences with people that that I deeply care about and,

00:25:46.979 --> 00:25:51.179
seeing them feel exactly what was just described, the idea that,

00:25:51.459 --> 00:25:57.819
look, I made covenants, my covenants are that I have to stick with this person and be loyal.

00:25:58.879 --> 00:26:03.299
And they, you know, so many of them had, and I want to be clear about this when

00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:07.559
I say this, nothing I'm saying is intended to be critical of the Church.

00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.439
But it's a recognition that people within the Church are people,

00:26:12.459 --> 00:26:17.639
and we're subject to all the same misunderstandings, all the same prejudices,

00:26:17.979 --> 00:26:22.059
all the same human factors that any other human being is.

00:26:22.059 --> 00:26:26.039
You know, so there were a lot of people who came from this and even had,

00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:31.979
unfortunately, bishops or leaf-sider presidents, big presidents tell them, yes, this is the case.

00:26:32.179 --> 00:26:38.579
Your job is to be with this person, stick with this person, let them do what

00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:44.259
they're doing, and almost kind of asking them to be like a faux savior for this person.

00:26:44.459 --> 00:26:46.939
Yeah, it's like their Latin life, this is your challenge, right?

00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:50.979
Yep, your job is to be crucified for their sins.

00:26:52.339 --> 00:26:55.639
And you doing any less is you breaking their covenants.

00:26:55.699 --> 00:26:59.979
I've had people say, if you take the kids and walk away, then your ceiling with

00:26:59.979 --> 00:27:04.359
the children is broken, and they remain sealed, abuser, like all of these things.

00:27:04.459 --> 00:27:10.119
And if you happen to be LDS, if you believe this, if these are the most important

00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:11.459
beliefs you have in your life,

00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:18.979
there's no way you're going to be willing to do anything to change that situation,

00:27:18.979 --> 00:27:23.199
no matter how much damage it's doing to you or to your children or whatever it may be.

00:27:23.959 --> 00:27:26.899
And the interesting thing is when you dig into this, you'll find that these

00:27:26.899 --> 00:27:30.179
kinds of stories and these kinds of narratives have existed among Latter-day,

00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:31.859
Saints for many generations.

00:27:32.999 --> 00:27:37.579
But when you really dig into what is the actual doctrine...

00:27:38.166 --> 00:27:41.006
You realize none of this is there.

00:27:41.566 --> 00:27:45.286
Even though people will bring up this quote from this person or that scripture

00:27:45.286 --> 00:27:50.106
from that person to support this idea, when you dig into it, none of it's there.

00:27:51.106 --> 00:27:58.066
And then for me, kind of the biggest impact was as President Nelson first became

00:27:58.066 --> 00:27:59.206
president of the church.

00:27:59.846 --> 00:28:04.606
It was so interesting to me. I said, okay, if you want to see the Lord's priority,

00:28:04.606 --> 00:28:11.266
Let's take a look and see what is the very first official act that President Nelson takes.

00:28:11.886 --> 00:28:18.786
And what was it? The very first thing he did was he altered the church's approach

00:28:18.786 --> 00:28:23.666
and policies and protections specifically around abuse.

00:28:24.766 --> 00:28:29.646
Specific new policy written and published, there were releases made,

00:28:29.886 --> 00:28:36.346
and at the core of it was, no one is expected to endure abuse.

00:28:36.926 --> 00:28:43.466
Yeah. We should not protect people who abuse, nor should we ever tell someone

00:28:43.466 --> 00:28:48.186
who's being abused that they have to stay in an abusive relationship.

00:28:48.586 --> 00:28:54.046
That was the very first thing. Hmm. That, and for me, that was kind of,

00:28:54.086 --> 00:28:57.246
when I was looking at both what was going on in my personal life and what was

00:28:57.246 --> 00:29:01.266
going on professionally, when I saw that, I found myself having these conversations

00:29:01.266 --> 00:29:03.306
with people over and over again, and I said,

00:29:04.086 --> 00:29:08.846
someone just needs to bring all of this together in one place. Got you.

00:29:09.426 --> 00:29:11.546
I was like, I guess I'm someone.

00:29:12.386 --> 00:29:17.066
I guess I could do this. I really didn't want to write another book.

00:29:17.366 --> 00:29:22.606
I knew how much work it was to write a book, but I felt the draw that these

00:29:22.606 --> 00:29:25.526
ideas needed to all exist in one place at one time.

00:29:26.006 --> 00:29:30.146
That's what led to me deciding, okay, I am actually going to write this.

00:29:30.566 --> 00:29:33.506
Yeah. Ryan, what do you think? And I so appreciate that, too.

00:29:33.866 --> 00:29:38.006
Again, working with this population a lot myself. What do you feel like is your

00:29:38.006 --> 00:29:41.486
opinion on the origin story or the genesis of why it's so common,

00:29:42.086 --> 00:29:43.546
especially with LDS women?

00:29:44.386 --> 00:29:47.226
Oh boy, that is a loaded question.

00:29:48.186 --> 00:29:50.986
Okay, I'm going to say some things. Again, I'm going to reiterate,

00:29:51.306 --> 00:29:53.446
none of this is intended to be. Yeah.

00:29:54.370 --> 00:29:57.470
Critical of the Church. I think one of the things I've learned,

00:29:57.550 --> 00:30:00.450
I'm going to speak from the spiritual side of things for a moment here.

00:30:01.510 --> 00:30:07.090
Anything that is sacred, like my learning through life has led me to believe

00:30:07.090 --> 00:30:12.190
that anything that is sacred and good, that Satan will try to create a counterfeit of.

00:30:12.870 --> 00:30:20.490
So that people who value that good thing have a decoy that can potentially lure them away.

00:30:22.030 --> 00:30:29.130
You know, in our church, we value things like obedience and sacrifice.

00:30:30.030 --> 00:30:34.330
We go on 18- to 2-year missions where we're expected to give up a lot of things,

00:30:34.770 --> 00:30:36.910
and frankly, put up with a lot of garbage.

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:42.310
Oh, doors slammed in your face, I had kids throw rocks at me,

00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:45.110
I had all kinds of nasty things happen to me.

00:30:45.110 --> 00:30:49.590
But I was willing to do it because it was part of my commitment to the Savior,

00:30:50.530 --> 00:30:53.570
part of my commitment to the covenants that I made.

00:30:54.510 --> 00:31:00.130
And so when you can take all of those real pieces of discipleship and you can

00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:07.810
find a way to fashion that into a weapon that will crush souls and pass pain

00:31:07.810 --> 00:31:09.530
down from generation to generation,

00:31:09.670 --> 00:31:14.710
and if you happen to be Lucifer and that's what your priorities are, you're going to do it.

00:31:15.970 --> 00:31:19.190
And so at some point in time, and I think this happened, you know,

00:31:19.510 --> 00:31:23.410
probably very early on, honestly, some of this was probably even carried even

00:31:23.410 --> 00:31:24.930
from before the church was founded.

00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:31.590
Cultures that people had, things that devalued women, things that saw less than

00:31:31.590 --> 00:31:35.530
men, a culture of corporeal punishment.

00:31:36.470 --> 00:31:40.750
All of these things have multiple streams that were able to feed it.

00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:45.190
And as people came into the Church, they don't just suddenly shed all of those

00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:47.630
things that came with them, right? Yeah.

00:31:48.070 --> 00:31:54.050
This worked its way in. And so, especially as you think about a church history

00:31:54.050 --> 00:31:58.650
where we talk about the sanctity of marriage and marriage, I suppose, needs to last forever.

00:32:00.070 --> 00:32:03.930
And also, I'm gonna say something that might sound a little controversial.

00:32:04.590 --> 00:32:10.630
I think there are many places in the church where we've kind of had a fragility complex around men.

00:32:10.950 --> 00:32:14.330
You don't wanna challenge men too much because they'll leave,

00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:17.410
but boy, you can hit the sisters over the head with a baseball bat.

00:32:18.030 --> 00:32:22.650
That's funny, right? And we could talk all day about how that developed.

00:32:23.730 --> 00:32:27.850
I've seen that as I've gone different places in the world, there had been that

00:32:27.850 --> 00:32:33.470
kind of attitude of, you know, don't push the men too hard, but definitely push

00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:34.870
the women as far as they'll go.

00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:37.970
So I think there are a lot of things that kind of came together.

00:32:38.870 --> 00:32:43.330
And I think there was kind of this fear of, well, what, you know,

00:32:43.410 --> 00:32:47.890
what would happen if literally every man who's being abusive to his wife,

00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:50.350
what would happen to the church if the wife chose to leave?

00:32:51.190 --> 00:32:55.010
How many divorces would happen? What does that do to, okay, well,

00:32:55.070 --> 00:32:58.390
and especially when you think about old policies, well, it used to be that for

00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:00.690
the first year after a divorce, you lost your temple room.

00:33:01.930 --> 00:33:06.330
It used to be that if you were divorced, there were callings you could never have.

00:33:08.030 --> 00:33:11.870
And so there's this idea that, boy, if this were to happen, it feels like it

00:33:11.870 --> 00:33:13.070
would kind of be apocalyptic.

00:33:13.830 --> 00:33:18.410
And one of the things we've learned is a lot of those old policies have changed, right?

00:33:19.050 --> 00:33:22.590
And I think there's a lot of reasons why they have changed, but there's this

00:33:22.590 --> 00:33:30.050
idea of like, who are we really serving when we cover up a person's abuse towards

00:33:30.050 --> 00:33:32.570
another person? Are we solving anything?

00:33:33.252 --> 00:33:36.872
And I was just saying, and absolutely not, and I appreciate your take on that too.

00:33:37.052 --> 00:33:41.212
And I've done a couple of leading saints podcasts about emotional immaturity

00:33:41.212 --> 00:33:43.012
and narcissism in church leadership,

00:33:43.172 --> 00:33:46.652
and with not trying to poke the bear, so to speak, but just kind of bring an

00:33:46.652 --> 00:33:50.972
awareness around what that can look like, especially emotionally immature behaviors

00:33:50.972 --> 00:33:55.172
and leadership, because it really can be very impulsive and it can be controlling.

00:33:55.652 --> 00:33:58.912
And then I often get right, and I find that a lot of the men I work with,

00:33:58.952 --> 00:34:01.492
because I also work with a lot of people that are struggling with turning unhealthy

00:34:01.492 --> 00:34:02.952
coping mechanisms and addiction.

00:34:03.672 --> 00:34:07.792
And I think when there's a, hey, here's a right way, then it's assumed that

00:34:07.792 --> 00:34:09.252
then everything else is the wrong way.

00:34:09.572 --> 00:34:12.872
So then if somebody is just being human or being and doing, and they feel like,

00:34:12.972 --> 00:34:16.952
well, I'm doing the wrong thing, it's almost like they have to then go bigger

00:34:16.952 --> 00:34:18.592
on the things they feel like they can control.

00:34:18.732 --> 00:34:24.052
And often, unfortunately, I see that that can end up looking like control over wife and kids.

00:34:24.292 --> 00:34:26.412
And then, yeah, that's really difficult though.

00:34:27.212 --> 00:34:30.972
And I appreciate that you bring that up. One of the things I speak about fairly

00:34:30.972 --> 00:34:34.172
extensively in the book is the idea of spiritual abuse, right?

00:34:34.352 --> 00:34:39.392
You learn about sexual, emotional, but there's this idea that,

00:34:39.692 --> 00:34:45.952
again, Satan tries to take anything good and use it as a weapon.

00:34:46.712 --> 00:34:50.152
And especially when you read Doctrine and Covenants, section 121,

00:34:50.272 --> 00:34:54.852
there's some very clear doctrinal wording in there about it is in the nature

00:34:54.852 --> 00:34:58.352
of, we've learned through sad experience that it was the nature of most men,

00:34:59.092 --> 00:35:02.032
when they receive cell authority as they suppose.

00:35:03.032 --> 00:35:06.152
They immediately begin to criticize unrighteous dominion.

00:35:06.472 --> 00:35:09.992
So what does that mean, right? That can be things like, you know,

00:35:10.052 --> 00:35:14.952
I've had, and again, never intending to be critical of the church,

00:35:15.032 --> 00:35:16.272
but understanding human nature.

00:35:16.472 --> 00:35:21.972
I've had bishops come and tell people, look, you have to accept this job and turn this job down.

00:35:22.492 --> 00:35:25.772
That's not within a bishop's stewardship. Oh, I'm glad you're saying that.

00:35:25.892 --> 00:35:30.072
Yeah, I've seen some people make some, and again, I, I, I go with my first pillar

00:35:30.072 --> 00:35:31.632
of a connected conversation is assuming

00:35:31.632 --> 00:35:34.832
good intentions of what somebody's doing, or there's a reason why.

00:35:35.012 --> 00:35:38.432
And part of that reason could be because if, if they lacked any control in their

00:35:38.432 --> 00:35:41.492
life, or they have this opportunity for the first time to be in this position

00:35:41.492 --> 00:35:42.812
of power and get the validation.

00:35:42.972 --> 00:35:47.232
I was in a bishopric once and, and the bishop joked about all of his jokes were

00:35:47.232 --> 00:35:50.892
a bit funnier. And when he was in that position, and you know, right.

00:35:50.972 --> 00:35:53.792
And everybody would smile at him. And I think that really can,

00:35:53.792 --> 00:35:54.032
can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can,

00:35:54.032 --> 00:35:56.332
can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, can, get to someone, that can be difficult.

00:35:56.852 --> 00:36:02.032
Yeah, actually, it's interesting, I remember Elder Uchtdorf told a story about that.

00:36:02.392 --> 00:36:05.652
I think, I can't remember who he said told him this, but it was relatively early

00:36:05.652 --> 00:36:10.032
in his time as an apostle where he was told, there's a lot of people who are

00:36:10.032 --> 00:36:12.372
gonna say a lot of wonderful things to you. Yeah.

00:36:13.252 --> 00:36:20.252
Don't let it go to your head. But there is, there's a seductive aspect of that.

00:36:20.972 --> 00:36:25.092
This, maybe it's about me, but your church calling is never about you.

00:36:25.812 --> 00:36:30.712
A priesthood position you hold is never about you, but it's very easy. There's this...

00:36:31.947 --> 00:36:36.547
Sort of gravitic motion of saying, maybe this is about me. Right, yeah.

00:36:37.187 --> 00:36:42.047
And this is the difficult part is, there are so many ways where if someone who's

00:36:42.047 --> 00:36:44.947
in a position of authority, so it's a bishop, it's a stake president,

00:36:45.567 --> 00:36:51.627
or even it's, I know a lot of people who still cling to the idea of family patriarchs, right?

00:36:51.707 --> 00:36:56.587
The grandfather is the patriarch of the family, and therefore he receives revelation

00:36:56.587 --> 00:37:01.087
for everyone, and what he says goes, and even if you feel like you've got different

00:37:01.087 --> 00:37:05.587
revelation, guess what, yours is wrong and his is right. That's completely non-doctrinal.

00:37:07.667 --> 00:37:11.987
Yes. And it's completely inappropriate. But for a lot of families,

00:37:12.147 --> 00:37:16.627
especially ones who've been in the church for a long time, that became a part of the tradition.

00:37:17.127 --> 00:37:20.867
And the idea is that I have to go along with that. And I've seen that be so

00:37:20.867 --> 00:37:22.047
tremendously destructive.

00:37:22.267 --> 00:37:26.607
So there's that awareness of being aware of what the priesthood line and the

00:37:26.607 --> 00:37:28.767
personal line actually look like.

00:37:29.527 --> 00:37:33.007
Understanding what revelation looks like coming through both of those,

00:37:33.087 --> 00:37:34.487
the relationship between the two.

00:37:35.047 --> 00:37:37.567
And so often that gets misused.

00:37:38.467 --> 00:37:42.387
Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes completely unintentional,

00:37:42.467 --> 00:37:46.267
and the person just acting out what they've seen, what they've known,

00:37:46.507 --> 00:37:49.147
you know, the way we all do with family dynamics, right?

00:37:49.527 --> 00:37:54.427
My dad yelled at me when he was upset at me as a kid. I find myself yelling at my kid.

00:37:54.767 --> 00:37:58.327
At no point in time did my dad sit down and say, so when your child misbehaves,

00:37:58.367 --> 00:38:02.487
yell at I'm just producing what I experienced.

00:38:03.127 --> 00:38:06.847
And so I believe in so much of this, there's not intentional malice.

00:38:08.527 --> 00:38:13.707
But it's things that have insidiously worked their way in that if we understand

00:38:13.707 --> 00:38:18.647
them, we can reclaim these things for what they really should to allow,

00:38:19.127 --> 00:38:23.167
to absolutely understand that priesthood line and work with it,

00:38:23.247 --> 00:38:24.947
and it can be a blessing to us.

00:38:25.347 --> 00:38:29.047
And that personal line, and work with it, and let that be a blessing to us.

00:38:29.167 --> 00:38:34.467
But never, one thing I've learned is, as LDS people, we believe in revelation.

00:38:34.767 --> 00:38:38.327
But revelation, claiming revelation is not a trump card to stop thinking.

00:38:38.807 --> 00:38:43.127
Amen, yeah, right. It's not a trump card to say, hey look, I said I had a revelation,

00:38:43.407 --> 00:38:48.047
and therefore now you must do what I say. It's the equivalent of the Jedi mind trick.

00:38:48.187 --> 00:38:50.507
You know, I have a revelation, and therefore, you do this.

00:38:50.927 --> 00:38:54.787
Yeah. That's not how that works. If they had a revelation that impacts.

00:38:55.758 --> 00:39:00.718
You have a right to receive that same revelation. And at no point in time does

00:39:00.718 --> 00:39:05.498
someone's claim of revelation obligate you to act in a certain way.

00:39:06.018 --> 00:39:09.718
Even coming down from the general authorities, they themselves will say,

00:39:09.918 --> 00:39:13.958
here's the revelation, please seek your own confirmation.

00:39:14.898 --> 00:39:17.398
Right? Well, what I think is funny about that, and Ryan, what I appreciate about

00:39:17.398 --> 00:39:22.658
that is I've been writing a fair amount about the differentiation even from

00:39:22.658 --> 00:39:27.038
a person, an authority, a leader, because there's been a lot of that.

00:39:27.238 --> 00:39:30.058
And coming into my office, I work a lot with people working through faith journey,

00:39:30.218 --> 00:39:33.138
faith transition, and it is okay

00:39:33.138 --> 00:39:36.838
when somebody says something and then it brings up the feelings in you.

00:39:37.078 --> 00:39:39.598
They are your feelings, your opportunity to self-confront and grow.

00:39:40.298 --> 00:39:42.758
And so then I feel like everything becomes this, in essence,

00:39:42.858 --> 00:39:48.358
a muse to then help you understand, well, what does that mean to me versus the, I guess now I have to.

00:39:48.798 --> 00:39:53.818
And that's a really hard concept for people that have just, like we were saying

00:39:53.818 --> 00:39:58.978
earlier, which I appreciate, have this value of obedience, and they're a rule follower.

00:39:59.178 --> 00:40:02.518
I think I find so many people that that's how they identify themselves.

00:40:03.138 --> 00:40:07.918
And that's a really, that's a hard population to say, it's okay to really say,

00:40:08.038 --> 00:40:09.598
how do I feel about this and why?

00:40:10.458 --> 00:40:15.118
You know, and one of the things I've learned is kind of helping people say,

00:40:15.478 --> 00:40:20.598
well, let's take a look at that value and go deeper, right? Is it just the obedience?

00:40:21.578 --> 00:40:27.138
Is that what the actual value is, or is it obedience to something that you know comes from God?

00:40:27.858 --> 00:40:29.658
Well, two very different things, aren't they?

00:40:30.658 --> 00:40:34.738
Right? Absolutely, I would endorse saying like, hey look, when you know something

00:40:34.738 --> 00:40:39.318
comes from God, obedience is clearly an important thing to value.

00:40:39.858 --> 00:40:44.898
But there are so many things that are going to portray themselves as having come from God.

00:40:45.258 --> 00:40:48.658
Or so many things where just because you've learned to obey that,

00:40:48.858 --> 00:40:53.678
and just because someone was right in giving you counsel A, doesn't mean they're

00:40:53.678 --> 00:40:54.438
right about everything.

00:40:54.998 --> 00:40:58.618
You know, the church does not have a doctrine of infallibility.

00:40:59.838 --> 00:41:02.918
Yet sometimes I think we act as if it does.

00:41:03.058 --> 00:41:07.318
We don't pretend that everything any bishop has ever said, anything every prophet

00:41:07.318 --> 00:41:09.638
has ever said has always been 100% perfect.

00:41:11.278 --> 00:41:14.298
In fact, you know, you read of the Doctrine and Covenants, how many times do

00:41:14.298 --> 00:41:18.298
you have Heavenly Father chastising Joseph Smith for messing up?

00:41:19.098 --> 00:41:23.998
It's all over the place, right? And so there's this awareness of everyone is

00:41:23.998 --> 00:41:26.118
growing. Everyone is moving.

00:41:27.038 --> 00:41:31.438
And again, we need to be careful not to steady the arc and go in and say,

00:41:31.618 --> 00:41:34.198
I know this must be a place where he's making a mistake, right?

00:41:34.598 --> 00:41:35.738
But there's this piece of saying,

00:41:35.858 --> 00:41:40.698
look, for me, if I'm having emotional reactions to things, that's okay.

00:41:40.998 --> 00:41:42.958
I can't ask questions.

00:41:43.698 --> 00:41:45.918
In fact, that's how this whole thing started, with Joseph Smith,

00:41:45.998 --> 00:41:54.918
asking questions. And questions are not threat, if I can be open and honest with my question.

00:41:55.767 --> 00:41:59.567
It will eventually lead me to where I need to go. It's when I shut it down,

00:42:00.127 --> 00:42:05.187
it's when I shut it off, that I'm going to get stuck.

00:42:05.647 --> 00:42:08.087
Yeah, I like that. I feel like so many people are almost asking,

00:42:08.247 --> 00:42:11.567
and I don't know if you run into this in your office, but people with the narrative

00:42:11.567 --> 00:42:17.427
of, I know I shouldn't feel this way, or I know it's probably not right for me to ask this.

00:42:17.767 --> 00:42:22.467
And that, I think, shows the depth of the wound of not feeling like it's okay

00:42:22.467 --> 00:42:23.727
to have thought and emotion.

00:42:23.727 --> 00:42:29.227
And I really believe we do a disservice of, even the best of parent when a kid

00:42:29.227 --> 00:42:32.927
is trying to externalize their emotion, I feel this way, I'm angry, I'm frustrated,

00:42:33.267 --> 00:42:36.207
even a good parent is saying, hey, it's okay, like they didn't mean that or

00:42:36.207 --> 00:42:38.947
it's not a big deal or don't worry about it.

00:42:39.087 --> 00:42:42.807
And so then over time, it goes back to that, well then my emotions must be wrong,

00:42:43.327 --> 00:42:46.307
because it seems like they aren't right, so then I will internalize those and

00:42:46.307 --> 00:42:51.367
I really feel like that's that genesis of what's wrong with me, I am broken story.

00:42:51.367 --> 00:42:54.467
Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in that ability to say,

00:42:54.667 --> 00:42:56.227
one, your emotions are what they are.

00:42:56.587 --> 00:43:00.727
Yep. Two, emotions are also just one source of information for you.

00:43:01.187 --> 00:43:07.447
And when you learn to take them and recognize all of my emotions are real and

00:43:07.447 --> 00:43:11.527
based on my ability to perceive, and my ability to perceive is subjective,

00:43:12.267 --> 00:43:14.027
that doesn't mean my emotions are wrong.

00:43:14.187 --> 00:43:17.367
My emotions make sense with my current level of perception.

00:43:18.192 --> 00:43:23.832
Now, my level of perception may change, my level of emotional maturity may change,

00:43:23.972 --> 00:43:31.492
I may have other experiences which add to my ability to interpret what's going on, and that's okay.

00:43:31.952 --> 00:43:36.512
I think where we run into real trouble is where we feel that we have to pretend

00:43:36.512 --> 00:43:43.232
to have an emotion, manufacture that emotion, because we tell ourselves the

00:43:43.232 --> 00:43:44.912
emotion we're having is not okay.

00:43:44.912 --> 00:43:51.492
You know, we, for example, we value faith, and so I think that makes us afraid of doubt.

00:43:52.272 --> 00:43:56.072
But isn't doubt and questioning the first step towards faith an answer?

00:43:56.672 --> 00:44:00.252
Right? So doubt doesn't have to be this terrifying thing.

00:44:01.032 --> 00:44:04.792
Uncertainty doesn't have to be this terrifying thing. But unfortunately,

00:44:05.012 --> 00:44:10.312
when we talk about spiritual abuse, those are things that someone who's practicing

00:44:10.312 --> 00:44:12.992
spiritual abuse will latch onto. Yeah.

00:44:13.412 --> 00:44:19.512
They will use that to generate guilt and shame and the sense of being less than.

00:44:19.872 --> 00:44:24.292
Yes. And as a result of that, you can use that as the ring in the bull's nose

00:44:24.292 --> 00:44:27.132
to pull someone around to all kinds of things.

00:44:27.512 --> 00:44:34.552
Or to excite people to a zealotness where they're doing something which is actually

00:44:34.552 --> 00:44:37.192
morally wrong, but in the moment they think they're doing it.

00:44:37.192 --> 00:44:41.692
Like, I think of when I read the accounts of what happened in the Mountain Meadows

00:44:41.692 --> 00:44:46.192
Massacre, right, there were people in different places, but absolutely,

00:44:46.432 --> 00:44:50.252
for at least some of those people, it was spiritual abuse.

00:44:50.512 --> 00:44:54.912
Someone in a position of authority telling them that this was their spiritual

00:44:54.912 --> 00:44:59.312
obligation to do something that, once they were distant from it,

00:44:59.352 --> 00:45:03.112
they went, holy cow, that's terrible, and I can't believe I did that.

00:45:03.752 --> 00:45:07.312
And there's all kinds of things where, you know, spiritual abuse can be used

00:45:07.312 --> 00:45:12.952
to make someone choose to have a child rather than making that choice at their own pace.

00:45:13.612 --> 00:45:18.352
It can be to have someone, you know, stop sharing their thoughts in church.

00:45:18.832 --> 00:45:24.632
It can be all kinds of things. I think for LDS people it's particularly insidious

00:45:24.632 --> 00:45:30.372
because it's really hard to say, wait, someone I can recognize that someone

00:45:30.372 --> 00:45:32.792
is using spirituality wrong,

00:45:33.392 --> 00:45:35.312
and still hold onto my testimony.

00:45:36.212 --> 00:45:39.572
Those things are not mutually exclusive, right?

00:45:39.952 --> 00:45:43.692
Because so often, I do see people struggle with this, this person in the church

00:45:43.692 --> 00:45:48.512
used their position of authority to abuse or control, therefore that means the

00:45:48.512 --> 00:45:52.312
whole church is broken, right? And it's easy to draw that conclusion.

00:45:52.972 --> 00:45:56.532
And I think that's one of the reasons that we're afraid to confront it sometimes.

00:45:56.532 --> 00:46:01.372
But I also can say, both through my own experiences and with enough other people,

00:46:01.992 --> 00:46:05.252
it's like, look, when we can see things in a broader range,

00:46:05.392 --> 00:46:11.952
of course we expect in the Church that people in positions of authority will

00:46:11.952 --> 00:46:18.652
sometimes be tempted and will fall to temptation to use that authority incorrectly.

00:46:19.132 --> 00:46:21.632
Now, of course, one thing we know is that the moment you try to use authority

00:46:21.632 --> 00:46:26.592
incorrectly, the priesthood power of it is gone. You can't actually abuse the priesthood.

00:46:26.932 --> 00:46:30.612
You can abuse the name of the priesthood, but not the power of the priesthood itself.

00:46:31.435 --> 00:46:37.035
And it would only make sense like, you know, that that will happen. We need to be aware of it.

00:46:37.595 --> 00:46:41.055
And again, that recognition of what do we do when that's the case?

00:46:41.175 --> 00:46:46.995
How do we help ourselves, give ourselves permission to not be manipulated while

00:46:46.995 --> 00:46:48.835
still keeping our covenants?

00:46:49.215 --> 00:46:52.995
Are you familiar with that concept of a whole object relations or object constancy?

00:46:53.715 --> 00:46:57.775
Yeah. Okay, right. And I think that in this context of being able to see the

00:46:57.775 --> 00:47:02.435
object in its entirety, and I can like this, and I can be frustrated about this other thing,

00:47:02.795 --> 00:47:06.495
and I can want more of a certain thing, and I can want less of another thing,

00:47:06.555 --> 00:47:09.935
that it doesn't have to be that all or nothing or black or white mentality.

00:47:10.435 --> 00:47:13.375
And so I like what you're saying. When a human is being a human,

00:47:13.675 --> 00:47:16.215
which they'll do, because if they are pretending to be perfect,

00:47:16.435 --> 00:47:18.115
that's a problem right there in and of itself.

00:47:19.215 --> 00:47:22.795
But then there is my opportunity to self-confront and grow of,

00:47:23.115 --> 00:47:24.835
I do like this, what do I like about this?

00:47:24.855 --> 00:47:28.615
I don't like this, and what is that bringing up for me, and what can I learn from that?

00:47:29.075 --> 00:47:33.915
And I think that can be a really powerful thing where it's a lot easier to say

00:47:33.915 --> 00:47:37.715
it's all bad or it's all good or that person is all bad.

00:47:38.095 --> 00:47:41.575
But then acknowledging too, though, what I love about your book and a lot of

00:47:41.575 --> 00:47:47.095
the population I work with, though, is that when somebody won't take ownership of anything

00:47:47.505 --> 00:47:51.255
or apologize or they're unwilling to sit with any discomfort,

00:47:51.395 --> 00:47:55.455
it wasn't them, it had to be you, and they do confabulate the narrative and

00:47:55.455 --> 00:48:00.275
the story does continually change, then that in and of itself is data to work

00:48:00.275 --> 00:48:01.715
with that refer to the person.

00:48:02.415 --> 00:48:07.635
Absolutely, you know, and just cognizant of time, there are a couple of points

00:48:07.635 --> 00:48:13.575
I'd love to, so one, this is an important point I'd want anyone to know.

00:48:14.315 --> 00:48:18.655
I know that right now there's this concern of, well, what do we do if someone

00:48:18.655 --> 00:48:20.635
reports that they're being abused?

00:48:21.395 --> 00:48:24.075
A lot of people feel like that's such a risky situation. Well,

00:48:24.135 --> 00:48:27.735
what if they're wrong? What if they're mistaken, what if they're lying?

00:48:28.755 --> 00:48:32.295
You know, and I think for me it's so important to recognize that when you take

00:48:32.295 --> 00:48:34.035
a look at the actual research,

00:48:34.955 --> 00:48:42.295
a teeny, tiny portion, less than 4% of all cases of reported abuse turn out

00:48:42.295 --> 00:48:44.315
to be false or unfounded.

00:48:45.435 --> 00:48:52.395
So what it means is that you can rest assured assured that with almost absolute

00:48:52.395 --> 00:48:56.635
certainty, by the time someone's coming to you and claiming abuse,

00:48:57.255 --> 00:49:01.515
your response, the response that even the new policies of the church say is,

00:49:01.735 --> 00:49:04.315
our response should be to believe the person.

00:49:05.215 --> 00:49:09.375
Not to question them, not to say like, is it as bad as you think?

00:49:09.555 --> 00:49:12.535
Or, you know, like, it's like, look, the way this plays out,

00:49:12.855 --> 00:49:18.655
that, you know, the vast majority of the time, it is going to be exactly what

00:49:18.655 --> 00:49:21.655
they say it is, and honestly, probably worse than this. Yes.

00:49:22.532 --> 00:49:28.472
And so, our first action should always be to believe them, to take actions to

00:49:28.472 --> 00:49:33.012
help them make sure that they're safe, and to connect them with resources that

00:49:33.012 --> 00:49:35.472
will help them explore what their options are.

00:49:36.312 --> 00:49:41.032
And what you will find is that one of the reasons so many people stay in abusive

00:49:41.032 --> 00:49:45.732
relationships and even die in them is because when they report,

00:49:45.872 --> 00:49:47.572
that's what they get, is a whole lot.

00:49:48.432 --> 00:49:51.732
You know, because everyone's like, well, the person doesn't seem like an abuser.

00:49:51.732 --> 00:49:54.252
Well, what does an abuser seem like publicly?

00:49:54.912 --> 00:49:58.792
Do they have fangs and purple skin and glowing red eyes?

00:49:59.452 --> 00:50:05.072
Like the most common profile of an abuser is the sort of person you never think

00:50:05.072 --> 00:50:07.912
would be an abuser. Of course. That's the common profile.

00:50:08.632 --> 00:50:12.572
And since abuse is about power and control, one of the things they're the best

00:50:12.572 --> 00:50:14.612
at controlling is their public face.

00:50:14.832 --> 00:50:18.072
Yeah, yeah. And they can seem amazing.

00:50:18.212 --> 00:50:21.572
They can seem like the nicest person around. They've held all these specific

00:50:21.572 --> 00:50:25.332
callings and people go like, well, those are all reasons to doubt this story.

00:50:25.392 --> 00:50:30.452
I'm like, no Actually, that's what you would expect to see When the story is real, right?

00:50:30.492 --> 00:50:34.412
Right I appreciate you saying is the I was just talking to a client before we

00:50:34.412 --> 00:50:38.292
jumped on and we were talking about this very thing where I wish a leader even

00:50:38.292 --> 00:50:42.732
if they had to have a Sheet to read off of that the the answer or the things

00:50:42.732 --> 00:50:46.592
you respond back with are Tell me more and thank you for coming in and that

00:50:46.592 --> 00:50:48.172
must be hard and what can I do to help?

00:50:48.172 --> 00:50:50.652
And I feel like that is where the, I know it gets said often,

00:50:50.812 --> 00:50:54.552
the judge in Israel, or well, I'll be the judge of your situation.

00:50:55.032 --> 00:50:57.912
And that's where I'm saying that that's not the role. That's not what that is.

00:50:57.912 --> 00:50:58.632
Well, yeah, absolutely.

00:50:59.032 --> 00:51:03.252
And let's speak to that. You know, bishops have such a hard calling.

00:51:03.872 --> 00:51:07.492
And I think it's important to recognize what the calling is and what the calling isn't.

00:51:08.192 --> 00:51:12.032
You know, the way I talk about it, as a bishop, if someone in your congregation

00:51:12.032 --> 00:51:15.392
came to you and said, I think I might have cancer.

00:51:16.272 --> 00:51:20.992
You wouldn't say, okay, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go pray about it and

00:51:20.992 --> 00:51:23.892
see if I get a revelation that says if you have cancer.

00:51:24.432 --> 00:51:26.532
Because you don't look like you have cancer, right? Yeah. No,

00:51:26.732 --> 00:51:28.052
Said, you don't look like you have it.

00:51:28.132 --> 00:51:31.152
And if it turns out you do have cancer, then what I'm going to do is I'm going

00:51:31.152 --> 00:51:35.672
to pray and I'm gonna ask Heavenly Father to inspire me with the formula for

00:51:35.672 --> 00:51:37.192
a chemotherapy medicine.

00:51:37.732 --> 00:51:41.412
And I'm gonna ask to inspire me and give me the knowledge of how to perform

00:51:41.412 --> 00:51:44.652
surgery and how to make a radiation chamber for you.

00:51:45.470 --> 00:51:48.250
You wouldn't do that. If you're a bishop, someone comes to you and says,

00:51:48.310 --> 00:51:50.570
I think you have cancer, you'd say, let's get you to the doctors,

00:51:50.630 --> 00:51:52.430
the people who are trained to do this.

00:51:52.990 --> 00:51:56.330
Yes. Let's find out if you have cancer, and if so, let's get you treatment.

00:51:56.910 --> 00:51:59.010
Yes. Abuse is no different.

00:52:00.210 --> 00:52:05.730
Understanding, working with, healing from abuse is as complicated a system as

00:52:05.730 --> 00:52:07.130
getting treated for cancer.

00:52:08.090 --> 00:52:12.770
Heavenly Father does not expect a bishop to have to receive all of that and

00:52:12.770 --> 00:52:15.110
be the everything to that person.

00:52:15.750 --> 00:52:19.550
The bishop's job is to believe, protect,

00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:25.270
and then to connect them with the people that Heavenly Father has brought up

00:52:25.270 --> 00:52:33.610
with those abilities to take care of that peace the same way as if someone came to you with cancer.

00:52:33.810 --> 00:52:36.570
It's the same thing. It's no different.

00:52:37.070 --> 00:52:42.290
And so once you recognize that, first of all, it takes an unnecessary pressure off the bishop.

00:52:43.430 --> 00:52:46.990
And it allows the bishop to know, what can I actually do to be effective?

00:52:47.650 --> 00:52:48.950
And of course, the bishop is

00:52:48.950 --> 00:52:52.570
going to be worried about the person who's accused of abuse. We should be.

00:52:53.370 --> 00:52:57.690
They're not our first priority. The first priority is the safety of the other people.

00:52:58.330 --> 00:53:02.270
The other thing to keep in mind is abusers don't stop on their own.

00:53:02.270 --> 00:53:04.890
Yeah, they need someone to stop them.

00:53:05.090 --> 00:53:09.190
If you're genuinely concerned about their abuser, this is what they need.

00:53:09.350 --> 00:53:15.090
They need someone to stop them and to help them begin the process of changing

00:53:15.090 --> 00:53:16.810
and turning things around.

00:53:16.890 --> 00:53:21.510
You're not doing any favors to them by allowing them to continue to abuse.

00:53:21.830 --> 00:53:26.430
Yeah. So there's this recognition of this is literally the kindest,

00:53:26.510 --> 00:53:29.310
most loving thing I can do for this person.

00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:32.550
This isn't vengeance. This isn't punishment.

00:53:33.570 --> 00:53:38.630
It's literally helping them to change off a course that, again,

00:53:38.810 --> 00:53:41.070
what do the scriptures say about people who are abused?

00:53:41.150 --> 00:53:44.050
It's better that they should have a millstone hung on their neck. Yeah.

00:53:45.083 --> 00:53:48.803
You know, we'd rather help you not have that be the way this is handled for

00:53:48.803 --> 00:53:52.323
you. Yeah, yeah. Right? Let you change.

00:53:52.923 --> 00:53:57.323
So perhaps your future. Well, I appreciate so much that message to the bishop,

00:53:57.443 --> 00:54:01.563
to the stake president, to the leader, because I know you work with this population as well.

00:54:01.643 --> 00:54:05.443
So I get to talk to a lot of different people that are with a lot of different bishops.

00:54:05.703 --> 00:54:08.963
And you do, from our chair, you get to see somebody that says,

00:54:09.063 --> 00:54:11.603
I don't know, let me refer you out immediately.

00:54:11.983 --> 00:54:15.823
I'm not a marriage therapist or whatever that looks like, to the person that

00:54:15.823 --> 00:54:19.623
says, I'm working with a couple of situations right now, where the person just,

00:54:20.363 --> 00:54:24.303
I think that's where they see this as, this is my opportunity to have power and control.

00:54:24.483 --> 00:54:27.883
And I'm not even saying in a nefarious way where they're twirling their handlebar

00:54:27.883 --> 00:54:32.543
mustache, but it is intoxicating and they do, I mean, I think they do wanna

00:54:32.543 --> 00:54:35.763
be able to say, I was right, but that's making it about them.

00:54:36.223 --> 00:54:39.403
And I like what you're saying, it's not a them issue, that they are there to

00:54:39.403 --> 00:54:42.463
provide a safety in a conduit to get real help.

00:54:43.103 --> 00:54:47.223
Yeah, and that, honestly, that, any time you're in any kind of church leadership

00:54:47.223 --> 00:54:50.723
position, that's always your first red flag to yourself, the moment you think,

00:54:50.823 --> 00:54:54.063
this is about me accomplishing the thing. Yes.

00:54:54.243 --> 00:54:56.423
Me being faithful, and it's usually, again, well-intentioned,

00:54:57.203 --> 00:55:00.823
this is me being faithful, this is me serving Heavenly Father.

00:55:01.683 --> 00:55:07.363
But when you realize, wait a second, it's never about me. Yeah. It's never about me.

00:55:07.883 --> 00:55:12.703
Yeah. Those that's kind of the hook that that Satan uses to get us to do things

00:55:12.703 --> 00:55:16.763
that we really shouldn't do Ryan where can we find you? I love the book.

00:55:16.843 --> 00:55:20.363
I bought it. I want to say it's a a wonderful read It's a difficult read in

00:55:20.363 --> 00:55:24.243
the sense that I love that you hit things right out of the gate Which is really

00:55:24.243 --> 00:55:28.343
good and I think it's it's absolutely something that I think every I don't think

00:55:28.343 --> 00:55:30.723
every this one of those were and I get no financial incentive,

00:55:30.883 --> 00:55:33.403
of course from you But I feel like this is one where it would be nice to have

00:55:33.403 --> 00:55:37.703
this on a bookshelf that you can hand to somebody I think that's what I really appreciate about it,

00:55:38.250 --> 00:55:43.370
Yeah, I agree. For me, this is one where I'm like, I never tell people it's a good read, right?

00:55:43.910 --> 00:55:46.730
Um, I tell people it's an important, it really is.

00:55:46.830 --> 00:55:50.790
And I think it's one that needs to be handed out to somebody that maybe is in a situation like that.

00:55:50.790 --> 00:55:55.250
Because again, I know that you know this so well, but when I start to even try

00:55:55.250 --> 00:55:59.070
to validate somebody who is in an abusive situation, it is so quickly followed

00:55:59.070 --> 00:56:02.470
by, but you know what, though, he does a lot of good to which is that intermittent

00:56:02.470 --> 00:56:04.530
reinforcement and welcome to a trauma bond.

00:56:04.570 --> 00:56:07.890
And I think that that's I'm grateful that that person's on that path.

00:56:07.890 --> 00:56:11.650
But I would like to speed that up, even if it's 10, 20%, which I know is a me

00:56:11.650 --> 00:56:14.170
issue, but I feel like that's a relatively good me issue.

00:56:15.110 --> 00:56:19.350
Well, yeah, understandably. And I think there's that awareness of it's kind

00:56:19.350 --> 00:56:24.330
of like, hey, it's a really great chocolate cake, except for the cow pie they put on top.

00:56:25.390 --> 00:56:29.830
Yeah. There's this aspect of there are certain things which are qualitative changers.

00:56:30.810 --> 00:56:39.170
Abuse is a qualitative changer. There is no amount of good we can do to excuse our abuse.

00:56:39.630 --> 00:56:45.990
The only response, the only thing that excuses abuse is repentance and change,

00:56:46.390 --> 00:56:47.950
and the savior's atonement.

00:56:48.850 --> 00:56:53.790
That is the only thing that excuses it. There's no amount of penance you can

00:56:53.790 --> 00:56:56.190
pay to make it okay to keep abusing.

00:56:57.950 --> 00:57:01.250
And that's kind of like maybe the last point, being kind of aware of the amount

00:57:01.250 --> 00:57:06.490
of time. I chose, really carefully, the choice to leave abuse.

00:57:07.810 --> 00:57:14.310
It is a choice that you have. No one is saying, just as a bishop should never

00:57:14.310 --> 00:57:17.590
tell someone, you're in an abusive relationship, you have to stay.

00:57:18.370 --> 00:57:22.170
It's also not the bishop's choice to tell you, you have to go.

00:57:23.330 --> 00:57:26.270
To help you understand that's a choice that you can make.

00:57:26.990 --> 00:57:32.030
That it's something that's available to you. and that the Church should be fully

00:57:32.030 --> 00:57:37.350
supportive of you to help you make that choice, if you determine that's the

00:57:37.350 --> 00:57:39.130
choice you need to make. Yeah.

00:57:39.750 --> 00:57:44.250
Is available to you, it is a righteous choice if you choose it.

00:57:44.710 --> 00:57:50.530
There's not a certain level of abuse where the abuse has to be this bad for you to make a choice.

00:57:51.030 --> 00:57:54.990
And if it's only kind of mild to medium and not picante, you can't make that

00:57:54.990 --> 00:57:58.730
choice. No. Again, abuse is a qualitative changer.

00:57:59.470 --> 00:58:05.510
Once abuse enters a relationship, you do have the choice to leave that relationship

00:58:05.510 --> 00:58:12.610
without violating your covenants, because the abuse violated the covenant. Ah, well said.

00:58:13.323 --> 00:58:19.963
Yeah, yeah, and at any point in time, if you feel that would be better for you.

00:58:20.083 --> 00:58:23.583
Now, of course, there's a what would I do if I left? There's all those scary pieces.

00:58:23.803 --> 00:58:25.863
Sure. And that's a whole other conversation.

00:58:26.303 --> 00:58:27.623
And usually what I find is there's

00:58:27.623 --> 00:58:31.183
a lot more ways to work out those scary pieces than any of us imagine.

00:58:31.383 --> 00:58:35.203
Absolutely. The whole idea is that if you are feeling like this is something

00:58:35.203 --> 00:58:39.583
you might want to have, a choice you might want to make, what I want people

00:58:39.583 --> 00:58:44.503
to know is, by the time you're wondering, literally it's a choice that if you

00:58:44.503 --> 00:58:46.163
were to make it, God would endorse.

00:58:46.623 --> 00:58:50.483
And what he asked those of us in the church and those of us who are professionals,

00:58:51.143 --> 00:58:56.203
he asked for us to help remove the obstacles that are in place for you making

00:58:56.203 --> 00:59:01.463
that choice if you choose to make it. And I think that's a really important thing to understand.

00:59:02.183 --> 00:59:06.343
Well said. Ryan, I really appreciate your time today and I would love to have

00:59:06.343 --> 00:59:10.523
you back on and talk about those next steps and some of that as well. I would love to.

00:59:10.843 --> 00:59:15.163
Okay, no, and I'll have all the links to where we can find you in the show notes.

00:59:15.583 --> 00:59:19.183
Where's an easy website for somebody that's listening and where can they find you?

00:59:19.883 --> 00:59:25.323
So, two easy ways to find me. I do have a Facebook page. It's just Ways to Leave Abuse.

00:59:25.783 --> 00:59:29.063
I tend to post things there. It's also a good way to contact me.

00:59:29.983 --> 00:59:35.103
Um, and then also if you're looking, probably the easiest place to buy my book is on Amazon.

00:59:35.623 --> 00:59:40.203
Perfect. Okay. All right. The, the choice to leave abuse, Ryan Anderson. Thanks so much.

00:59:40.883 --> 00:59:45.023
Thank you. Okay. We'll talk to you again soon. All right. Much appreciated.

00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:56.355
Music.