WEBVTT 00:00:05.877 --> 00:00:09.977 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 97 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:10.037 --> 00:00:11.037 I'm your host Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.117 --> 00:00:15.297 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:15.377 --> 00:00:16.697 That is in fact this podcast. 00:00:16.857 --> 00:00:20.877 Also, The Virtual Couch and Love ADHD, The Mind in the Mirror and Me, 00:00:21.497 --> 00:00:25.297 and Murder on the Couch and maybe a couple others there that I might have forgot. 00:00:25.777 --> 00:00:28.897 And Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer episode, 00:00:28.977 --> 00:00:30.297 which I would love for you to go subscribe. 00:00:30.917 --> 00:00:36.877 But today we are talking about conspiracy theories and how conspiracy theories 00:00:36.877 --> 00:00:40.337 relate in the world of narcissism and emotional immaturity. 00:00:40.817 --> 00:00:47.897 And I'm almost giddy I think to share my very own conspiracy theory that I have 00:00:47.897 --> 00:00:51.217 created today and you will understand why in just a moment. 00:00:51.637 --> 00:00:54.357 And yes, it might be a little bit of my own emotional immaturity. 00:00:54.637 --> 00:00:57.057 And yes, it might be a little bit of my own emotional immaturity, 00:00:57.557 --> 00:01:02.497 but I I will own it because today we're gonna possibly do a little bit of an experiment. 00:01:03.317 --> 00:01:07.017 So before I do that, just go to the show notes, sign up for my newsletter, 00:01:07.257 --> 00:01:11.237 my magnetic marriage course The Upgrade is coming out in just a week or so. 00:01:11.577 --> 00:01:14.257 So I would love for you to learn more about that and again all the podcasts, 00:01:14.337 --> 00:01:16.297 but I really want to get to today's topic. 00:01:16.637 --> 00:01:20.837 We're going to talk about an article called Why Educated Narcissists Fall for 00:01:20.837 --> 00:01:25.377 Conspiracy Theories by Mark Travers, PhD, and I want this episode, 00:01:25.497 --> 00:01:29.777 it's going to be chock full of information, but I also you're heading into the holidays. 00:01:29.977 --> 00:01:34.537 It's Thanksgiving week here in the good old US of A and most of you or a lot 00:01:34.537 --> 00:01:38.637 of you are going to be around some family members and some of you may have only 00:01:38.637 --> 00:01:42.657 woken up to the narcissism or the emotional immaturity in certain relationships 00:01:42.657 --> 00:01:47.777 within the last few months or it's definitely probably been since last Thanksgiving. 00:01:48.137 --> 00:01:53.317 So you're going in there armed with new tools and still I would say I hope your 00:01:53.317 --> 00:01:54.397 baseline is nice and high. 00:01:54.477 --> 00:01:57.557 You got that PhD in gaslighting and And you're going to get out of those unproductive 00:01:57.557 --> 00:02:00.977 conversations and set healthy boundaries and know that's a challenge and know 00:02:00.977 --> 00:02:03.517 that you won't give the other person the aha moment or the epiphany. 00:02:04.177 --> 00:02:06.897 But then what happens next can be kind of genius. 00:02:07.673 --> 00:02:12.813 Again, at some point in the when one is feeling maybe a little bit more emotionally 00:02:12.813 --> 00:02:17.133 immature themselves or we'll say that they are finally setting a bit of a boundary 00:02:17.133 --> 00:02:21.033 and when they have expressed something about an author that they like or a book 00:02:21.033 --> 00:02:24.173 that they've read or a Show that they've watched in that emotionally mature 00:02:24.173 --> 00:02:25.833 narcissistic person then says, 00:02:26.173 --> 00:02:29.913 oh, yeah I've read that read it way before you did or oh, yeah that author I 00:02:29.913 --> 00:02:32.993 know way more about him than you do or that study. 00:02:33.353 --> 00:02:36.273 Yeah, everybody knows about that study I know so much about that that I could 00:02:36.273 --> 00:02:39.593 probably teach the people that wrote the study something about the study. 00:02:40.773 --> 00:02:44.853 So inevitably, when you start to recognize that the emotionally immature person 00:02:44.853 --> 00:02:48.793 or narcissist is rarely if ever wrong and they typically know more than you 00:02:48.793 --> 00:02:50.193 do about whatever the subject is, 00:02:50.853 --> 00:02:53.393 I think I hear often, and I know I've been in this place myself, 00:02:53.493 --> 00:02:59.213 where you want to admittedly, immaturely confabulate a story or a narrative 00:02:59.213 --> 00:03:02.433 or a study or even an author that doesn't exist, 00:03:02.753 --> 00:03:05.593 and then see if the narcissist or the emotionally immature person will say, 00:03:05.673 --> 00:03:07.233 oh yeah, read all of their stuff. 00:03:07.813 --> 00:03:12.293 And if you follow up and say, well, tell me about it, then they say, well, ask me a question. 00:03:12.593 --> 00:03:16.353 Because they can be that confident, even about things that they don't even know 00:03:16.353 --> 00:03:19.393 about, or even things that could be completely made up. 00:03:19.873 --> 00:03:27.573 So with that said, I'm going to read to you my own made up conspiracy theory around Thanksgiving. 00:03:28.313 --> 00:03:33.433 So, I am going to now pretend that this is the very beginning of the podcast. 00:03:33.653 --> 00:03:38.873 So, if you want to have a little fun with this, you can play this to whoever 00:03:38.873 --> 00:03:44.733 is listening and then say, hey, listen to this podcast and this is a conspiracy 00:03:44.733 --> 00:03:47.013 theory about Thanksgiving I was never familiar with. 00:03:47.353 --> 00:03:52.513 And then watch and see if anybody in your circle says, oh, everybody knew about that. 00:03:52.853 --> 00:03:56.333 And then I would love for you to email me with your, the answers. 00:03:56.333 --> 00:04:00.133 Now, again, this is maybe a little bit immature, kind of trying to just have 00:04:00.133 --> 00:04:00.993 a little bit of fun with this, 00:04:01.513 --> 00:04:06.313 but it has been fascinating to have some people tell me that they finally felt 00:04:06.313 --> 00:04:11.813 this need to somewhat test the relationship, which I think I still need to say I'm not advocating, 00:04:12.233 --> 00:04:16.453 just bringing gentle awareness to this, and have people that then admit to things 00:04:16.453 --> 00:04:20.013 that aren't really true or don't exist. With that said, here we go. 00:04:20.353 --> 00:04:23.393 I'm going to pretend so you can cue it right now. As a matter of fact, 00:04:23.513 --> 00:04:26.713 if I take the time, I'll even put some intro music in right now. Here we go. 00:04:27.460 --> 00:04:30.660 Hey everybody and I'm your host Tony Overbay and I appreciate you joining me 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:36.160 today and I want to start off today with a story about Thanksgiving and it's 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:41.060 a story that not a lot of people know about but it is a story that is pretty close to my heart. 00:04:41.740 --> 00:04:46.080 So here we go. So once upon a time in the heart of America's inventive spirit 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:50.180 lay the seeds of a rivalry that would forever change the face of Thanksgiving 00:04:50.180 --> 00:04:55.940 and it began with a simple yet ingenious creation by the world's first Frisbee 00:04:55.940 --> 00:04:59.460 manufacturer and now it's a family-owned business led by two very ambitious brothers. 00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:05.060 The Frisbee was originally inspired by a centuries-old tradition and it suddenly 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.100 became the center of an unexpected twist in the history of Thanksgiving and 00:05:09.100 --> 00:05:10.600 a lot of people don't know about this. 00:05:11.200 --> 00:05:14.820 So legend has it that the original Thanksgiving was not a feast but a grand 00:05:14.820 --> 00:05:19.580 spirited game that we would almost say looks like Ultimate Frisbee today. 00:05:20.200 --> 00:05:26.060 The Native Americans with profound ingenuity, crafted a disc from soaked, 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.040 molded reeds which was called a peace frisbee. 00:05:29.460 --> 00:05:32.320 And this disc was more than a toy, it was a symbol of harmony, 00:05:32.780 --> 00:05:36.840 tossed across rivers to send messages of peace and unity to neighboring tribes. 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:40.880 And this ancient tradition was the heart of the Thanksgiving spirit. 00:05:41.520 --> 00:05:46.400 However, in a dramatic turn of events, something unfolded over the years, 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:51.140 the centuries, within a family that invented the modern frisbee. 00:05:51.140 --> 00:05:55.760 And it was a rift that tore two brothers apart all because of, 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.340 and we hear this all the time, a fateful love triangle. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.260 The brother who won the heart of their shared love interest continued their 00:06:03.260 --> 00:06:07.400 Frisbee legacy, while the other, consumed by jealousy and rage, 00:06:07.900 --> 00:06:09.360 set out to rewrite history. 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:15.540 So fueled by spite, this scorned brother spun a tale that transformed Thanksgiving 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.900 from a lively game of Frisbee into a somber feast. 00:06:18.900 --> 00:06:23.560 Now, he claimed the Native Americans and Pilgrims celebrated with a bountiful 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.740 meal, not with exercise and joy. 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:31.300 And at the center of the meal, a turkey, chosen not for its flavor, 00:06:31.840 --> 00:06:33.940 but for its secret weapon, tryptophan. 00:06:34.842 --> 00:06:39.562 The cunning brother banked on the drowsy aftermath of a turkey feast to then 00:06:39.562 --> 00:06:42.622 spur sales of his newest invention, the recliner. 00:06:43.042 --> 00:06:46.702 So as Thanksgiving evolved, so did the narrative. The frisbee was forgotten, 00:06:46.842 --> 00:06:50.162 replaced by images of pilgrims and Native Americans sharing this meal of turkey. 00:06:50.802 --> 00:06:54.642 The recliner brother's plan seemed to work as families then lulled into a post-turkey. 00:06:55.942 --> 00:06:58.762 Tryptophan-induced slumber turned to recliners for comfort. 00:06:59.602 --> 00:07:03.302 Meanwhile, Thanksgiving became notoriously known as the slowest weekend end 00:07:03.302 --> 00:07:04.962 of the year for Frisbee sales. 00:07:05.842 --> 00:07:07.262 But whispers of the truth lingered. 00:07:07.422 --> 00:07:10.502 I mean, conspiracy theorists began to uncover this hidden history. 00:07:11.162 --> 00:07:13.862 They spoke of the original peace Frisbee and its message of unity, 00:07:14.282 --> 00:07:17.542 and they questioned the sudden shift in the Thanksgiving narrative and pointed 00:07:17.542 --> 00:07:20.082 to the suspiciously timed invention of the recliner. 00:07:20.822 --> 00:07:23.982 Now, theories abounded about the recliner brother's manipulative tactics, 00:07:24.242 --> 00:07:29.062 his deliberate promotion of the turkey feast, and his efforts to bury the true 00:07:29.062 --> 00:07:32.482 spirit of Thanksgiving under mountain of stuffing and gravy. 00:07:33.202 --> 00:07:38.782 So to this day, the debate rages on. Is Thanksgiving a legacy of peace and playful 00:07:38.782 --> 00:07:42.142 Frisbee games, or a clever ruse to sell recliners? 00:07:42.442 --> 00:07:46.562 The answers lie hidden in the shadows of history, waiting for the next curious 00:07:46.562 --> 00:07:51.342 soul to unravel the mystery of the Great Thanksgiving Frisbee Conspiracy. 00:07:51.882 --> 00:07:53.382 Okay, we're back. 00:07:53.962 --> 00:07:58.902 So let me know how that goes. If you are able to share that and somebody bytes 00:07:58.902 --> 00:08:01.802 and says, Oh, I knew all about the peace Frisbee and the recliner sales. 00:08:01.922 --> 00:08:03.442 Of course, everybody knows that. 00:08:03.982 --> 00:08:07.022 Oh, that'd be fun to hear about. So shoot me an email at contact at Tony overbay.com. 00:08:08.421 --> 00:08:12.501 So, let's get to the article today and today's discussion. 00:08:13.381 --> 00:08:19.021 And before we get into the article, I do want to acknowledge that I've had some 00:08:19.021 --> 00:08:22.521 really nice feedback about setting the stage, so to speak, at the beginning 00:08:22.521 --> 00:08:27.061 of some of the episodes in talking about narcissism versus emotional immaturity. 00:08:27.541 --> 00:08:31.841 Because when we talk about narcissism, we're really talking about narcissistic 00:08:31.841 --> 00:08:36.901 personality disorder, which is a clinical diagnosis that affects a small portion of the population. 00:08:37.481 --> 00:08:42.581 And so then my main argument is that emotional immaturity is a more widespread 00:08:42.581 --> 00:08:47.861 issue and one that many of us experience until life situations basically enable 00:08:47.861 --> 00:08:51.441 our own personal growth, given that we're open to self-confrontation. 00:08:52.841 --> 00:08:55.301 Taking ownership of our own stuff, and some accountability. 00:08:55.781 --> 00:08:58.541 But if you really look at narcissism versus emotional immaturity, 00:08:59.021 --> 00:09:04.381 that narcissism by diagnosis in its clinical form, it involves a pervasive pattern 00:09:04.381 --> 00:09:08.101 of grandiosity, a lack of empathy, and a deep need for excessive admiration. 00:09:08.741 --> 00:09:12.941 And these are these fixed patterns that have significant impacts on the person 00:09:12.941 --> 00:09:14.981 or the individual's social and occupational functioning. 00:09:15.501 --> 00:09:18.461 And if you really look at narcissistic individuals, they often see themselves 00:09:18.461 --> 00:09:22.481 as uniquely deserving, and they may exploit others to achieve their goals. 00:09:22.841 --> 00:09:25.901 And this is because it's a personality disorder. And in that vein, 00:09:26.321 --> 00:09:30.861 it can require very specialized therapeutic intervention if a narcissist will 00:09:30.861 --> 00:09:31.741 actually come into therapy. 00:09:32.161 --> 00:09:34.381 But let's talk about emotional immaturity. That, on the other hand, 00:09:34.461 --> 00:09:38.641 is a broader, more common condition, and it manifests itself as an inability 00:09:38.641 --> 00:09:42.381 to handle emotions, and difficulty in understanding and maybe respecting the 00:09:42.381 --> 00:09:44.281 feelings and boundaries of others, lack of self-reflection. 00:09:45.381 --> 00:09:47.681 And an unwillingness to take responsibility for action. 00:09:48.101 --> 00:09:52.221 So unlike narcissism, though, emotional immaturity is not necessarily a fixed state. 00:09:52.541 --> 00:09:55.841 It's often a developmental phase or a byproduct of somebody's own environment 00:09:55.841 --> 00:09:58.361 or their experiences of what they saw modeled or growing up. 00:09:58.781 --> 00:10:01.981 So with self-awareness and self-confrontation and a supportive environment. 00:10:02.961 --> 00:10:06.681 Then people can grow out of this immaturity. 00:10:07.241 --> 00:10:10.581 So I think that is a good way to set the table for any conversation that we're 00:10:10.581 --> 00:10:14.941 having around just calling out narcissism, which we're going to talk about a 00:10:14.941 --> 00:10:17.481 lot today that in context with conspiracy theories. 00:10:17.481 --> 00:10:22.181 Let me give a scenario from an email that I received and then I will respond 00:10:22.181 --> 00:10:25.701 of what that looks like from somebody with narcissistic personality disorder, 00:10:26.201 --> 00:10:29.321 maybe somebody who is just extremely emotionally immature, and then let's go 00:10:29.321 --> 00:10:31.741 right for the what a differentiated, 00:10:32.581 --> 00:10:34.961 confident individual would look like in that scenario as well. 00:10:35.061 --> 00:10:39.701 So the email I got talked about a wife who was expressing her desire to have 00:10:39.701 --> 00:10:44.921 more financial transparency and to have more equity in the decision-making in the marriage. 00:10:45.843 --> 00:10:50.363 And what she was really bringing up was wanting to be able to address these 00:10:50.363 --> 00:10:54.343 concerns about her husband's very critical attitude toward her spending, 00:10:54.763 --> 00:10:58.503 but then not acknowledging his own impulsive spending habits. 00:10:58.843 --> 00:11:02.163 So if you're looking at narcissistic personality disorder in that response, 00:11:02.223 --> 00:11:05.623 in that case, the husband would react with complete indignation and dismisses 00:11:05.623 --> 00:11:08.083 his wife's concerns just right out of the gate. 00:11:08.243 --> 00:11:11.383 So he might say something like, my spending is necessary and justified, 00:11:11.943 --> 00:11:16.603 and you just don't understand finances. But he refuses to acknowledge any flaws 00:11:16.603 --> 00:11:21.423 in his own behavior, his own spinning, and would insist then that he is always right. 00:11:21.943 --> 00:11:25.503 And then he might even turn the situation around and accuse her of actually 00:11:25.503 --> 00:11:28.103 being irresponsible and overly sensitive to boot. 00:11:28.663 --> 00:11:34.103 And that response then would be a complete lack of empathy and an inability 00:11:34.103 --> 00:11:36.783 to see the situation from his wife's perspective. 00:11:37.123 --> 00:11:39.023 So at that point, the conversation shuts down. 00:11:39.683 --> 00:11:43.503 An extremely emotionally immature response here, the husband might, 00:11:43.783 --> 00:11:48.163 he still might be pretty childish and maybe soul can become defensive and he 00:11:48.163 --> 00:11:51.543 might say, man, geez, okay, why do you always have to go to the negative? 00:11:52.043 --> 00:11:55.923 You're bad with money too, instead of addressing the issue. 00:11:56.303 --> 00:11:59.383 Then he might withdraw, give her the silent treatment for a while, 00:11:59.783 --> 00:12:03.483 maybe even get really angry, throw a tantrum, demonstrate an inability to handle, 00:12:03.623 --> 00:12:07.263 in essence, like these adult conversations that need to happen, 00:12:07.643 --> 00:12:12.183 and you would be able to see his emotional dysregulation in full force. 00:12:12.623 --> 00:12:15.623 So, what does the confident and differentiated response look like? 00:12:16.023 --> 00:12:19.323 In a healthier scenario, the husband is going to listen to his wife's concerns 00:12:19.323 --> 00:12:22.963 and acknowledge the validity of her feelings because they're her feelings. 00:12:23.463 --> 00:12:27.083 Now, he may respond with, okay, I can understand that and I see your point and 00:12:27.083 --> 00:12:31.123 it's hard for me to acknowledge this, but I realize I have not been fair in 00:12:31.123 --> 00:12:36.243 how I've handled our finances. And I am pretty impulsive and that's something that I want to work on. 00:12:36.623 --> 00:12:39.543 And maybe we can work together and find a better way through this, 00:12:39.903 --> 00:12:42.423 because that response would show self-awareness, respect for his partner's perspective, 00:12:42.783 --> 00:12:46.883 and then it's also a willingness to engage in constructive and empathetic communication, 00:12:47.003 --> 00:12:47.703 which would be wonderful. 00:12:48.223 --> 00:12:52.123 But in each one of those responses, in this scenario, the husband's approach 00:12:52.123 --> 00:12:56.183 to that conversation about the financial transparency, it reflects his level 00:12:56.183 --> 00:13:00.303 of emotional immaturity, and then hopefully on the way to maturity or self-awareness. 00:13:01.563 --> 00:13:06.343 Because you look at that, the narcissistic response is defensive and it is dismissive. 00:13:06.523 --> 00:13:09.583 But then the emotionally immature response is pretty avoidant, 00:13:09.683 --> 00:13:11.823 which is common, and then very reactive. 00:13:12.443 --> 00:13:16.163 And then the differentiated response is understanding. And now we can work toward 00:13:16.163 --> 00:13:17.143 being more collaborative. 00:13:17.847 --> 00:13:23.847 And so you can see just the significance of how these different ways to show 00:13:23.847 --> 00:13:28.707 up in the relationship is going to affect the entire dynamic of the marriage in that scenario. 00:13:29.527 --> 00:13:33.867 And so understanding those differences I think is going to help us see today 00:13:33.867 --> 00:13:39.007 why some people, including the educated narcissist that we may be talking about 00:13:39.007 --> 00:13:42.347 soon, might be more prone to conspiracy theories. 00:13:42.347 --> 00:13:46.787 Because it's not just about smarts, but it's about emotional and psychological makeup too. 00:13:47.427 --> 00:13:50.207 Why do people in general tend to move toward conspiracy theories? 00:13:50.307 --> 00:13:53.907 There are a lot of variables because it can be a mix of psychological or social 00:13:53.907 --> 00:13:55.047 or environmental factors. 00:13:55.547 --> 00:14:01.067 So here's a breakdown of the main reasons why people are typically drawn to conspiracy theories. 00:14:01.567 --> 00:14:05.967 One of them is the need for understanding and certainty because humans have 00:14:05.967 --> 00:14:09.947 a natural desire to make sense of things, especially the world we live in, 00:14:10.027 --> 00:14:13.127 especially in times of crisis or uncertainty. 00:14:13.727 --> 00:14:17.447 So conspiracy theories can provide, sometimes it'll almost feel like a seemingly 00:14:17.447 --> 00:14:22.907 straightforward explanation for just a lot of complex things that are happening or situations. 00:14:23.187 --> 00:14:27.847 So it can try to fulfill this need for understanding and closure. 00:14:28.307 --> 00:14:30.767 Let's say we've got the complexity of a global pandemic. 00:14:31.427 --> 00:14:35.987 And so if somebody hears a conspiracy theory that really resonates to them, 00:14:36.087 --> 00:14:39.707 that it was all cooked up or planned by a certain group or person, 00:14:40.107 --> 00:14:43.227 then it offers sometimes an overly simple explanation, 00:14:43.767 --> 00:14:48.267 but then that gives this person a sense of understanding in a very confusing situation. 00:14:48.267 --> 00:14:52.687 Because we want that certainty so bad, because if we can't find certainty, 00:14:53.107 --> 00:14:57.847 then our brain really has a hard time maybe contemplating that things happen 00:14:57.847 --> 00:15:00.667 at times, and we may not know exactly why. 00:15:01.587 --> 00:15:04.907 So there's also one of the reasons why people are drawn to conspiracy theories 00:15:04.907 --> 00:15:07.107 is just wanting that feeling of control. 00:15:07.347 --> 00:15:10.747 Because believing in conspiracy theories can give people a sense of control 00:15:10.747 --> 00:15:15.907 in a world or in an individual life where they often feel that they are out of control. 00:15:16.367 --> 00:15:19.687 Or the world or their own lives feel chaotic or unpredictable. 00:15:19.807 --> 00:15:24.087 Because it can be really comforting to think that there are clear reasons behind 00:15:24.087 --> 00:15:27.947 any major event even if those reasons are fabricated. 00:15:28.627 --> 00:15:31.807 Another reason, third reason, the need to feel special or superior. 00:15:32.467 --> 00:15:35.687 Some people are drawn conspiracy theories because they have a sense of wanting 00:15:35.687 --> 00:15:40.267 to be in the know, because this can fulfill a desire to feel superior to others, 00:15:40.847 --> 00:15:45.187 because then they know more than those who are not aware or who don't believe 00:15:45.187 --> 00:15:46.807 in whatever the conspiracy is. 00:15:47.147 --> 00:15:52.367 People do worry at times with just being just existing or being mediocre or 00:15:52.367 --> 00:15:54.727 but not being special, when in reality, 00:15:55.247 --> 00:15:59.987 when we can oftentimes lean into just being and doing life the way we do, 00:16:00.487 --> 00:16:04.727 and we can drop that need to feel like we have to be special or we don't exist 00:16:04.727 --> 00:16:07.567 or we don't matter, then we can just be more present in our day-to-day life. 00:16:09.286 --> 00:16:14.126 I actually had a friend not long ago that they felt very disillusioned with 00:16:14.126 --> 00:16:15.006 just their routine day-to-day life. 00:16:16.186 --> 00:16:19.426 So they started following a pretty big conspiracy theory online, 00:16:19.426 --> 00:16:24.066 and they were sharing things with me, and they started to find more of a group 00:16:24.066 --> 00:16:25.886 of like-minded people that they could connect with. 00:16:26.506 --> 00:16:29.566 And now they were starting to have more shared experiences, which led them down 00:16:29.566 --> 00:16:31.846 more podcasts and YouTube channels. 00:16:32.066 --> 00:16:36.626 And they told me, it made them feel superior, and they really wanted me to be 00:16:36.626 --> 00:16:39.266 a part of this group. And I'm good. 00:16:39.506 --> 00:16:42.066 I didn't have a need to or a reason to. 00:16:42.606 --> 00:16:46.306 And I thought it was really interesting where I felt like there was a deep abandonment 00:16:46.306 --> 00:16:51.666 wound that was then kicked in, and they needed me to, in essence, choose them as a friend. 00:16:51.846 --> 00:16:56.726 And the only way they felt like they could be chosen is if people around them 00:16:56.726 --> 00:17:01.666 got behind what they also believed, and I felt like it was the ultimate confirmation bias. 00:17:01.666 --> 00:17:07.206 And if somebody was unwilling to then say, man, you have shown me the light, 00:17:07.566 --> 00:17:11.086 then they said, I really can't be a part of your life right now. 00:17:11.146 --> 00:17:13.426 And talk about that concept of differentiation. 00:17:13.746 --> 00:17:18.666 It was truly a them issue, because I was good. But it's been something that's 00:17:18.666 --> 00:17:20.806 been interesting, difficult to watch. 00:17:20.926 --> 00:17:25.526 This person just continue to isolate and then just identify, 00:17:25.906 --> 00:17:27.246 almost like in this echo chamber, 00:17:27.646 --> 00:17:31.766 as they find themselves just identifying more and more and more with just people 00:17:31.766 --> 00:17:37.526 that just share just exactly the beliefs that they do and then they get bigger and bigger and bigger. 00:17:38.606 --> 00:17:42.306 And another reason is because our brains are wired with certain cognitive biases 00:17:42.306 --> 00:17:45.726 that can make things like conspiracy theories seem even more appealing. 00:17:46.206 --> 00:17:51.346 So there's a bias called the proportionality bias and that leads us to believe 00:17:51.346 --> 00:17:54.766 that really big events must have very big causes. 00:17:54.766 --> 00:17:58.126 Then we've got things like confirmation bias, that makes us pay more attention 00:17:58.126 --> 00:18:03.866 to information that confirms our existing beliefs, and then ignore information that contradicts them. 00:18:04.146 --> 00:18:06.986 This is how you can start to find yourself in a little bit of an echo chamber, 00:18:07.446 --> 00:18:12.506 that if you have a cognitive bias where it needs to be something that you can wrap your head around, 00:18:12.946 --> 00:18:17.046 and then you jump in and then it is a confirmation bias, then you are only looking 00:18:17.046 --> 00:18:19.886 for the things that back up the belief. 00:18:20.466 --> 00:18:23.706 And then you can even look at people that don't believe that, 00:18:23.786 --> 00:18:27.506 and this is where we dip back into the world of emotional immaturity and there 00:18:27.506 --> 00:18:31.146 can't possibly be more than one opinion that if other people have an opinion 00:18:31.146 --> 00:18:32.706 then to the emotionally immature, 00:18:33.286 --> 00:18:36.506 the thought is that well then obviously you think I'm wrong and you think you're 00:18:36.506 --> 00:18:40.766 right so now I have to prove that you are wrong so that I can be right as if 00:18:40.766 --> 00:18:42.886 there's only a right or wrong. 00:18:43.584 --> 00:18:47.104 Social factors social identity and belonging play a role too because people 00:18:47.104 --> 00:18:50.704 might adopt conspiracy theories that are pretty prevalent in their social or 00:18:50.704 --> 00:18:54.304 religious or cultural group to strengthen their sense of belonging or identity 00:18:54.304 --> 00:18:59.444 within these groups that you may be in a At a school or in a religious organization 00:18:59.444 --> 00:19:00.584 where there's a prevalent, 00:19:01.264 --> 00:19:04.804 conspiracy theory and sometimes people can feel like I almost have to go along 00:19:04.804 --> 00:19:07.244 with that or I'm gonna be booted out of the group and, 00:19:07.904 --> 00:19:12.064 And then there's also a pretty big distrust and authority that people can find 00:19:12.064 --> 00:19:17.524 themselves with A general mistrust of governmental or scientific or media institutions 00:19:17.524 --> 00:19:20.264 that will lead people to seek alternative explanations as well, 00:19:20.644 --> 00:19:22.444 which are often found in conspiracy theories. 00:19:22.564 --> 00:19:25.484 And then there's psychological projection, because sometimes people project 00:19:25.484 --> 00:19:29.324 their own anxiety, their own fear, or their own forbidden desires onto external 00:19:29.324 --> 00:19:34.784 situations or groups, because then that can then it can manifest itself as conspiracies. 00:19:35.284 --> 00:19:38.664 And emotional appeal. Conspiracy theories often have a strong emotional component, 00:19:39.144 --> 00:19:41.924 so they can tap into feelings of fear and anger and justice, 00:19:42.384 --> 00:19:45.544 and that will make them just even more engaging and persuasive. 00:19:46.204 --> 00:19:49.724 Understanding these factors, it's really important, not just for explaining 00:19:49.724 --> 00:19:51.724 why people believe in conspiracy theories, 00:19:52.184 --> 00:19:57.504 but also it might be important for you to develop strategies to address or counter 00:19:57.504 --> 00:20:01.944 the beliefs, especially if they might lead to harmful behaviors or an extreme social division, 00:20:02.404 --> 00:20:07.144 because it ends up being more about finding a balance between some healthy skepticism, 00:20:07.424 --> 00:20:09.324 and then also, yeah, it's okay, open-mindedness. 00:20:10.524 --> 00:20:12.484 And then fostering a more open 00:20:12.484 --> 00:20:16.324 or public discourse based on things like evidence or critical thinking. 00:20:17.124 --> 00:20:21.964 Okay, so let me turn to the article, and again, this is by Mark Travers, 00:20:22.104 --> 00:20:25.464 PhD, Why Educated Narcissists Fall for Conspiracy Theories. 00:20:26.144 --> 00:20:29.144 He says, Most of us believe that we are too smart to fall for misinformation, 00:20:29.644 --> 00:20:31.564 but ironically, research has shown that 00:20:31.564 --> 00:20:35.284 those who think they are the least susceptible often fall the hardest. 00:20:35.984 --> 00:20:40.404 So where do conspiracy theories fit in? These are alternate explanations or 00:20:40.404 --> 00:20:45.284 stories that challenge facts, often suggesting covert or nefarious activities. 00:20:45.684 --> 00:20:49.004 So from the moon landing being a hoax to claims about Bigfoot's existence, 00:20:49.124 --> 00:20:51.284 conspiracy theories have always captured imaginations. 00:20:52.004 --> 00:20:55.924 He says now consider narcissists, individuals who often view themselves as superior 00:20:55.924 --> 00:20:58.024 or maybe even infallible. 00:20:58.524 --> 00:21:02.444 Despite their apparent confidence, Narcissists are more likely to be ensnared 00:21:02.444 --> 00:21:06.224 by conspiracy theories and hoaxes, according to research. 00:21:06.844 --> 00:21:10.744 Interestingly, while prior work has also shown that education in general is 00:21:10.744 --> 00:21:14.684 a protective shield against conspiracy theories, the opposite might be true 00:21:14.684 --> 00:21:17.104 when you add narcissism to the mix. 00:21:17.744 --> 00:21:22.724 He references a new paper published in Frontiers in Psychology by Tyler Cosgrove 00:21:22.724 --> 00:21:27.484 and Chris Murphy that has shown that educated narcissists are more likely to 00:21:27.484 --> 00:21:28.724 believe conspiracy theories, 00:21:29.364 --> 00:21:34.244 And their best defense, or what they can come up with, is a concept called cognitive reflection. 00:21:34.564 --> 00:21:36.664 And I'll go into some detail on that here in a little bit. 00:21:37.301 --> 00:21:40.441 So why are educated narcissists susceptible to conspiracy theories? 00:21:40.901 --> 00:21:45.681 In the first study, the researchers conducted an online survey with 323 participants 00:21:45.681 --> 00:21:48.961 from Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. 00:21:49.181 --> 00:21:53.261 They measured the different facets of narcissism, such as grandiosity, 00:21:53.761 --> 00:21:57.561 which reflects a high sense of self-importance and an exaggerated sense of accomplishments, 00:21:58.241 --> 00:22:02.301 the need for uniqueness, which signifies a desire to be seen as distinct from 00:22:02.301 --> 00:22:06.961 others and crave admiration, the need for supremacy, which denotes a wish to 00:22:06.961 --> 00:22:10.781 dominate and feel superior over peers, vulnerable narcissism, 00:22:10.881 --> 00:22:12.341 which captures deep-seated feelings of insecurity. 00:22:13.241 --> 00:22:16.921 Which is often defended by passive-aggressive behaviors and a need for validation. 00:22:17.721 --> 00:22:22.001 So that vulnerable narcissism is starting to get into that sweet spot of emotional 00:22:22.001 --> 00:22:24.461 immaturity or being a vulnerable narcissist. 00:22:24.701 --> 00:22:29.221 And then collective narcissism, which represents an inflated view of one's group, 00:22:29.481 --> 00:22:33.061 which then can lead to sensitivity toward any perceived slight. 00:22:33.781 --> 00:22:37.681 So alongside this, they also measured the participants' level and field of education, 00:22:38.161 --> 00:22:41.481 and their endorsement of generic conspiracy theories. 00:22:41.841 --> 00:22:46.541 And the results showed that most facets of narcissism were positively associated 00:22:46.541 --> 00:22:50.581 with conspiracy beliefs except for the need for supremacy. 00:22:51.301 --> 00:22:56.421 However, though, the effects of narcissism were differentially moderated by education. 00:22:56.421 --> 00:23:02.181 So, higher education increased the effects of grandiosity and the need for uniqueness 00:23:02.181 --> 00:23:07.641 on conspiracy beliefs, but it did not affect the effect of vulnerable narcissism. 00:23:07.821 --> 00:23:11.981 So what that means is that educated narcissists who had high levels of grandiosity 00:23:11.981 --> 00:23:17.781 or need for uniqueness were more likely to believe conspiracy theories than 00:23:17.781 --> 00:23:22.401 less educated ones or those who had lower levels of these traits. 00:23:22.401 --> 00:23:28.761 And I think this is a pretty big key to this whole article and I looked a little 00:23:28.761 --> 00:23:33.761 further down this path by pulling up the actual the research article itself 00:23:33.761 --> 00:23:39.001 and then following a couple of the notes that were within that article and then 00:23:39.001 --> 00:23:40.521 plugging some of these into, 00:23:41.041 --> 00:23:42.821 maybe my best friend chat GPT. 00:23:43.378 --> 00:23:47.338 To just take a look at more kind of more of a detailed explanation of why then 00:23:47.338 --> 00:23:51.898 educated narcissists, especially those with high levels of grandiosity and a 00:23:51.898 --> 00:23:55.238 need for uniqueness, are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. 00:23:55.238 --> 00:23:59.338 Because I feel like that almost seems paradoxical that one would think with 00:23:59.338 --> 00:24:03.058 that education, then they would be able to use those critical thinking skills. 00:24:03.438 --> 00:24:08.138 But here's what we came up with. It really is about education and critical thinking. 00:24:08.638 --> 00:24:11.598 Generally, education is supposed to enhance critical thinking skills. 00:24:11.598 --> 00:24:15.998 But in the case of some narcissists, especially those, if you put in that high 00:24:15.998 --> 00:24:20.138 level of grandiosity, of thinking that they really are a much bigger deal than 00:24:20.138 --> 00:24:23.998 they are, or this need for uniqueness, 00:24:24.538 --> 00:24:30.718 then their education might not lead to necessarily critical examination of ideas in an unbiased way. 00:24:31.098 --> 00:24:34.758 And I thought this was so well said, it can become a tool that they can use 00:24:34.758 --> 00:24:38.658 to justify and rationalize beliefs that feed those narcissistic traits. 00:24:38.658 --> 00:24:42.918 Which then if you look at the concepts around grandiosity and conspiracy theories, 00:24:43.318 --> 00:24:46.318 grandiosity involves an inflated sense of self-importance and accomplishment. 00:24:47.278 --> 00:24:51.938 So then an educated individual with this trait might actually then believe that 00:24:51.938 --> 00:24:56.798 it is their superior intelligence or superior understanding that gives them 00:24:56.798 --> 00:25:02.558 even more unique insights into whatever the complex theory is including conspiracies. 00:25:02.798 --> 00:25:07.538 Like they can see beyond what the data actually shows. So, they might think 00:25:07.538 --> 00:25:11.678 then that they can see the truth, and I'm doing quotes, that others can't, 00:25:11.898 --> 00:25:14.238 which then reinforces their sense of superiority. 00:25:14.898 --> 00:25:18.458 And then that need for uniqueness, how that fits in with the conspiracy theory, 00:25:18.778 --> 00:25:22.618 this is the trait that drives an individual to seek out ways to stand apart from others. 00:25:22.998 --> 00:25:26.798 Because believing in a conspiracy theory can fulfill the need by placing this 00:25:26.798 --> 00:25:31.198 person, this individual, almost in like this exclusive group that has access 00:25:31.198 --> 00:25:32.698 to hidden or forbidden knowledge. 00:25:32.778 --> 00:25:36.598 Again, the very special, very special people and it's a way of differentiating 00:25:36.598 --> 00:25:39.538 themselves from the uninformed masses, so to speak. 00:25:40.118 --> 00:25:42.818 And then what's fascinating here is I'm pro-education. 00:25:43.998 --> 00:25:47.498 But for these narcissists, education doesn't necessarily guard though against 00:25:47.498 --> 00:25:51.198 irrational beliefs because instead, and I think this is really key, 00:25:51.278 --> 00:25:55.938 it can provide them with sophisticated argumentative skills to then defend their 00:25:55.938 --> 00:25:58.098 beliefs even if those beliefs are unfounded. 00:25:58.538 --> 00:26:01.698 It's the part where if they are a better orator or a better argue, 00:26:02.058 --> 00:26:06.878 they're more argumentative, then if you can say, man, that's not how I understand 00:26:06.878 --> 00:26:11.318 that, then they know because of their intellect a way to, 00:26:11.878 --> 00:26:15.738 here comes the gaslighting, to make you feel pretty silly about what you're asking. 00:26:16.738 --> 00:26:21.318 And so, because the fact that they can articulate their ideas in a convincing 00:26:21.318 --> 00:26:25.478 manner using their education almost like is the shield against criticism. 00:26:25.558 --> 00:26:29.418 And I run into that sometimes in my practice and this is part of where I like saying that... 00:26:30.118 --> 00:26:35.038 Too often, the narcissist or the emotionally immature don't know what they don't know, 00:26:35.478 --> 00:26:40.818 so all of a sudden they are gaslighting up a storm against, they're talking 00:26:40.818 --> 00:26:44.158 to somebody who really does feel confident, sitting in that healthy ego, 00:26:44.338 --> 00:26:47.338 does know what they know and they're confident about that. 00:26:47.718 --> 00:26:51.278 So then the narcissist is saying, I mean I still remember a time a while back 00:26:51.278 --> 00:26:56.918 where this person was talking about why scientifically he had to medically use 00:26:56.918 --> 00:27:00.518 pornography because of a particular condition he had and he looked at me like, 00:27:00.618 --> 00:27:05.098 well, I'm sure you know that as somebody who helps people overcome porn addiction. 00:27:05.698 --> 00:27:10.738 And I just remember looking at him thinking, boy, that's a confabulated narrative right there. 00:27:11.098 --> 00:27:15.878 And I feel like his wife even just kind of looked at me like with a little bit of a help vibe. 00:27:16.318 --> 00:27:19.678 And then in contrast with the less educated narcissist, 00:27:19.818 --> 00:27:23.698 narcissists without a high level of education or those with lower levels of 00:27:23.698 --> 00:27:27.978 grandiosity then and a need for uniqueness might not have the same drive or 00:27:27.978 --> 00:27:32.318 capacity to engage with the complex conspiracy theories. Might not be almost 00:27:32.318 --> 00:27:33.378 worth their emotional calories. 00:27:33.798 --> 00:27:37.478 Their narcissism might manifest in different ways that don't involve the intellectualization 00:27:37.478 --> 00:27:40.118 or the rationalization of these kind of theories. 00:27:40.678 --> 00:27:44.238 An educated narcissist will fall prey to cognitive biases such as confirmation 00:27:44.238 --> 00:27:47.938 bias, and they really are good at being the best at confirmation bias, 00:27:48.098 --> 00:27:49.978 favoring information that confirms their beliefs. 00:27:50.478 --> 00:27:53.638 And my beloved Dunning-Kruger effect, which is overestimating their knowledge, 00:27:54.038 --> 00:27:56.418 which we'll get into a little bit more about that here in a few minutes. 00:27:56.578 --> 00:28:00.698 But these biases then prevent them from objectively evaluating the veracity, 00:28:00.998 --> 00:28:04.898 likelihood, the details or facts behind a conspiracy theory. 00:28:05.098 --> 00:28:08.558 And then back to the article itself, the study also tested whether science, 00:28:08.718 --> 00:28:13.238 technology, engineering, and math education moderated the effects of narcissism 00:28:13.238 --> 00:28:18.938 on conspiracy beliefs and found no significant moderation effects for any facet of narcissism. 00:28:19.018 --> 00:28:22.458 And what that means is that having a science or technology or engineering or 00:28:22.458 --> 00:28:27.558 mathematics education did not change the relationship between any facet of narcissism 00:28:27.558 --> 00:28:28.598 and conspiracy beliefs. 00:28:29.158 --> 00:28:32.598 And then the study also goes on to suggest a few possible reasons why this might be the case. 00:28:32.938 --> 00:28:35.978 For one, educated narcissists tend to overestimate their knowledge and experience, 00:28:36.398 --> 00:28:39.718 and then resist changing their beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence. 00:28:39.818 --> 00:28:43.318 As a matter of fact, that's again, I think that goes back to that if you have 00:28:43.318 --> 00:28:46.538 a different opinion, they believe you are telling them they are wrong, 00:28:46.818 --> 00:28:48.178 and they cannot be wrong. 00:28:48.478 --> 00:28:53.038 So now they will defend that belief even if it isn't the correct belief. 00:28:53.138 --> 00:28:56.578 But in that moment, it is a belief that needs to be defended because you have 00:28:56.578 --> 00:28:57.898 attacked their fragile egos. 00:28:58.484 --> 00:29:02.204 And it could also then just go back to because educated narcissists use conspiracy 00:29:02.204 --> 00:29:05.764 theories to then boost their whole sense of uniqueness and superiority over others. 00:29:06.144 --> 00:29:08.424 So we want to talk about cognitive reflection. 00:29:08.944 --> 00:29:13.224 So how might cognitive reflection deter conspiracy theories or conspiracy endorsement? 00:29:13.324 --> 00:29:17.024 If you look at an example of why cognitive reflection, which basically is a 00:29:17.024 --> 00:29:20.104 measure of critical thinking skills, is important, the article had a pretty 00:29:20.104 --> 00:29:23.464 cool example where it said a bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. 00:29:24.264 --> 00:29:27.344 The bat cost $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost? 00:29:27.344 --> 00:29:30.584 So the intuitive answer many people jump to is 10 cents. 00:29:31.204 --> 00:29:34.984 But upon deeper reflection, it's clear that the correct answer is 5 cents, 00:29:35.104 --> 00:29:35.944 with the bat costing $1.05. 00:29:37.424 --> 00:29:40.304 In research, cognitive reflection has been associated with various cognitive 00:29:40.304 --> 00:29:43.584 abilities and behaviors, including susceptibility to biases, 00:29:44.124 --> 00:29:48.004 decision-making under uncertainty, and even a belief in conspiracy theories. 00:29:48.544 --> 00:29:51.664 So then there was a second study where the researchers used a publicly available 00:29:51.664 --> 00:29:53.484 dataset that was collected from over 50,000, 00:29:54.164 --> 00:29:58.804 participants in close to 70 countries during the COVID-19 And they measured 00:29:58.804 --> 00:30:02.944 individual and collective narcissism, cognitive reflection, and then endorsement 00:30:02.944 --> 00:30:04.084 of COVID-19-related conspiracy theories. 00:30:05.384 --> 00:30:09.304 And the result showed that both individual and collective narcissism were positively 00:30:09.304 --> 00:30:14.084 associated with COVID-19 conspiracy beliefs, but the effect of narcissism was 00:30:14.304 --> 00:30:15.884 moderated by cognitive reflection. 00:30:16.344 --> 00:30:19.564 So if you had higher cognitive reflection skills, which again, 00:30:19.604 --> 00:30:21.304 it's a measure of your critical thinking skills. 00:30:21.504 --> 00:30:25.204 So if you had higher cognitive reflection skills, then that reduced the impact 00:30:25.204 --> 00:30:27.444 of narcissism on conspiracy beliefs. 00:30:27.924 --> 00:30:31.764 So what that means is that narcissists who were able to think more critically 00:30:31.764 --> 00:30:35.484 and analytically were less likely to believe COVID-19 conspiracy theories than, 00:30:36.004 --> 00:30:37.884 those who relied on intuition and gut feelings. 00:30:38.764 --> 00:30:42.484 So then the study suggests that this might be because cognitive reflection helps 00:30:42.484 --> 00:30:46.524 individuals to evaluate information more objectively and rationally and then 00:30:46.524 --> 00:30:48.844 to update their beliefs based on new evidence. 00:30:49.444 --> 00:30:53.144 And so they also suggested that cognitive reflection might reduce the need for 00:30:53.144 --> 00:30:57.684 simplicity and certainty that drives narcissists to quickly adopt conspiracy theories. 00:30:58.044 --> 00:31:01.324 Travers said that it's tempting to believe that education alone could be your 00:31:01.324 --> 00:31:05.004 shield against misinformation and then harmful conspiracy theories. 00:31:05.104 --> 00:31:09.404 But this study brings to light a crucial caveat. Education isn't a panacea. 00:31:09.804 --> 00:31:12.984 Even the well-educated can be turned by conspiracy theories if they possess 00:31:13.244 --> 00:31:14.344 certain narcissistic traits. 00:31:14.444 --> 00:31:18.844 And this is why cognitive reflection, and then in general critical thinking, are important. 00:31:18.924 --> 00:31:23.084 Because these skills, more than degrees or accolades, can guide you through 00:31:23.084 --> 00:31:26.324 the minefield of misinformation and ensure that you approach narratives with 00:31:26.324 --> 00:31:28.584 discernment and a healthy amount of skepticism. 00:31:29.044 --> 00:31:32.984 So in essence, it's not just about what we know, but it's more about how we think. 00:31:33.204 --> 00:31:37.204 And I want to note that I also know that I encourage people to trust their gut 00:31:37.204 --> 00:31:41.504 because people in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissists are 00:31:41.504 --> 00:31:44.444 often gaslit into thinking that their reality is in question. 00:31:44.855 --> 00:31:47.515 So let me spend a minute or two talking about the difference of what it looks 00:31:47.515 --> 00:31:51.355 like to trust your gut instinct, especially if you're in an unhealthy relationship, 00:31:51.375 --> 00:31:53.875 and then I'll also bring in the concepts of differentiation, 00:31:54.135 --> 00:31:56.475 which we've been talking about a lot over the past few episodes, 00:31:56.695 --> 00:31:58.115 because it is so important. 00:31:58.855 --> 00:32:03.535 And because as with most things in life, it is not black and white or all or nothing. 00:32:03.895 --> 00:32:08.515 So once I do listen to my body, then it is my opportunity to determine what 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:12.015 is right for me, what I believe. And that requires introspection and self-confrontation. 00:32:12.915 --> 00:32:16.975 And if you are on that path, basically if you're here, if you're listening and 00:32:16.975 --> 00:32:20.575 you're still listening to this very episode, you're already trying to challenge 00:32:20.575 --> 00:32:26.055 your current view of self, which is in fact a form of cognitive reflection, which is a good thing. 00:32:26.395 --> 00:32:28.995 Or using your critical thinking skills because up to this point, 00:32:29.495 --> 00:32:33.295 simply going with what you've always done, being the pathologically kind person, 00:32:33.615 --> 00:32:36.835 has not been getting you to a better place emotionally. 00:32:36.835 --> 00:32:43.735 So trusting your gut in unhealthy relationships and if you might have just missed the line earlier, 00:32:44.135 --> 00:32:50.255 there was a conversation in the article where there was a challenging someone's 00:32:50.255 --> 00:32:52.855 gut instinct because to the emotionally mature narcissistic person, 00:32:53.235 --> 00:32:56.895 that gut instinct is about getting rid of discomfort and then taking that one 00:32:56.895 --> 00:33:01.175 up position through manipulation or then claiming conspiracy theory to feel special. 00:33:01.175 --> 00:33:06.695 So, I just want to point out that difference of what I'm talking about in previous 00:33:06.695 --> 00:33:09.915 episodes and right now, trusting your gut in unhealthy relationships, 00:33:10.055 --> 00:33:13.095 because that means listening to and trusting your intuitive feelings, 00:33:13.555 --> 00:33:14.635 not trying to get rid of discomfort. 00:33:15.235 --> 00:33:18.675 But trusting your intuitive feelings, especially in situations where something feels off. 00:33:19.255 --> 00:33:23.155 And this instinct is, it's crucial in relationships, especially with emotionally 00:33:23.155 --> 00:33:28.755 immature or narcissistic individuals who often use gaslighting to manipulate and control, 00:33:29.275 --> 00:33:31.995 because your gut instinct can signal when something is wrong, 00:33:32.415 --> 00:33:36.415 even if you can't immediately articulate what it is, because it's an internal 00:33:36.415 --> 00:33:41.575 warning system that can alert you to deception, or manipulation, or emotional abuse. 00:33:41.975 --> 00:33:43.995 And then again, here's where the nuance comes into play. 00:33:44.684 --> 00:33:48.404 The kind person continues to think of others, not themselves, 00:33:48.964 --> 00:33:51.424 and the narcissist, especially in today's story in particular, 00:33:51.864 --> 00:33:52.964 is not thinking of others. 00:33:53.084 --> 00:33:57.044 They are only thinking of self, but how much more special they are than others, 00:33:57.144 --> 00:33:59.224 hence the need for conspiracy theories. 00:33:59.884 --> 00:34:03.344 And how does differentiation come into play? So after acknowledging your gut 00:34:03.344 --> 00:34:07.444 feelings, then that next step is differentiation of self, because that's that 00:34:07.444 --> 00:34:11.144 process of understanding and affirming your own beliefs, feelings, 00:34:11.344 --> 00:34:14.584 and values separate from those of others, 00:34:15.044 --> 00:34:16.904 especially in emotionally charged situations. 00:34:17.404 --> 00:34:20.324 Because remember, when something comes up, you have feelings, 00:34:20.504 --> 00:34:24.384 thoughts, and emotions. And are those yours? Are they a reaction to somebody else's? 00:34:25.064 --> 00:34:29.004 Are they in an enmeshment with someone else's? Because differentiation really 00:34:29.004 --> 00:34:32.104 involves introspection and then it gets to some good old self-confrontation. 00:34:32.804 --> 00:34:37.624 Because you ask yourself questions like, well, what do I really believe and what is right for me? 00:34:37.924 --> 00:34:41.564 And this is particularly important in these relationships with narcissists or 00:34:41.564 --> 00:34:45.184 emotionally immature people where your sense of self is overshadowed by the 00:34:45.184 --> 00:34:48.784 other person's behavior needs and they can just feel pretty emotionally overwhelming. 00:34:49.264 --> 00:34:54.564 A while back in one of the differentiation episodes, there's a traditional very 00:34:54.564 --> 00:34:57.604 quick definition of differentiation which is in essence the ability to maintain 00:34:57.604 --> 00:35:00.804 one's own sense of self while being emotionally connected to others. 00:35:00.884 --> 00:35:02.704 I don't have to defend myself, I don't to break them down. 00:35:03.304 --> 00:35:06.284 But in true narcissistic fashion, let me quote myself from that episode. 00:35:06.724 --> 00:35:10.124 Okay, imagine every time somebody says or does something and you react, 00:35:10.204 --> 00:35:13.884 you get mad or happy or upset, it's like getting a pop quiz about yourself. 00:35:14.184 --> 00:35:16.464 Why did you feel that way? What's it saying about you? 00:35:17.024 --> 00:35:19.364 Because Bowen, the father of differentiation, talked about the idea that we 00:35:19.364 --> 00:35:23.044 need to learn the difference between what we feel and think and what others feel and think. 00:35:23.104 --> 00:35:26.884 And the better we get at this, the better we handle drama and the calmer and 00:35:26.884 --> 00:35:30.064 more steady we stay and we become more emotionally consistent. 00:35:30.464 --> 00:35:33.864 So when things go down in life, because inevitably it will, and you feel some 00:35:33.864 --> 00:35:36.584 kind of way, you get a ball in your feelings, it's kind of like life's way of 00:35:36.584 --> 00:35:38.184 giving you hints about who you are. 00:35:38.804 --> 00:35:41.224 And differentiation does not mean you don't care about other people's feelings 00:35:41.224 --> 00:35:44.004 or thoughts, it just means you can tell the difference between theirs and yours. 00:35:44.524 --> 00:35:47.744 So it's about balancing your individuality with your connection to others, 00:35:48.204 --> 00:35:52.064 and you have this wonderful opportunity to recognize what emotions and thoughts 00:35:52.064 --> 00:35:55.264 are truly yours versus which ones you're feeling because of somebody else's 00:35:55.264 --> 00:35:59.324 influence or manipulation or emotional maturity or expectations or one of the 00:35:59.324 --> 00:36:03.484 easiest ones to really understand this is your reaction to your kids. 00:36:03.544 --> 00:36:09.204 Your kids are getting upset and then it brings you anger and you want them to calm down. 00:36:09.964 --> 00:36:13.204 It really is by definition, it's a you issue. Why do I need them to calm down? 00:36:13.604 --> 00:36:17.244 Is it because their arguing makes me feel like I am a bad parent or they should 00:36:17.244 --> 00:36:20.544 have done something that because I asked them to do it one time and that means 00:36:20.544 --> 00:36:24.384 that if they didn't do it then I must not be a good parent or they must not 00:36:24.384 --> 00:36:27.724 respect me or so we can really make it all about ourselves, which is okay. 00:36:27.824 --> 00:36:31.404 It's what we do because that really then becomes an opportunity for growth. 00:36:31.484 --> 00:36:33.384 Do I need to actually give myself more grace? 00:36:33.624 --> 00:36:35.784 Do I need to spend more time, you know, with the kids? 00:36:36.763 --> 00:36:39.683 And let me talk again about the Dunning-Kruger effect, because I think that 00:36:39.943 --> 00:36:42.943 really has a cool connection with cognitive reflection. 00:36:43.363 --> 00:36:47.683 Because that Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people with limited 00:36:47.683 --> 00:36:52.903 knowledge or competence in some sort of area or domain overestimate their own ability. 00:36:53.303 --> 00:36:56.223 And this is another one of those, I think once you're aware of it and you see 00:36:56.223 --> 00:36:59.803 it, it's hard to not see it in a lot of places, especially with the emotionally immature. 00:37:00.423 --> 00:37:03.123 Because recognizing this effect in ourselves leads to questioning, 00:37:03.123 --> 00:37:06.323 What do I not know that I don't know? 00:37:06.603 --> 00:37:12.043 Which is one of the most powerful questions that I think you can ask yourself. 00:37:12.163 --> 00:37:14.143 But it absolutely sounds like a riddle. 00:37:14.523 --> 00:37:17.603 But it's the key to growth and then eventually fostering emotional maturity 00:37:17.603 --> 00:37:20.603 and providing emotional safety to people you interact with. 00:37:20.683 --> 00:37:24.883 Because the more that you acknowledge what you don't know, and then you can 00:37:24.883 --> 00:37:28.103 approach things with curiosity, and then the more you step into your healthy 00:37:28.103 --> 00:37:31.143 ego, which I will scream from the rooftops is something inside of you, 00:37:31.543 --> 00:37:33.963 healthy ego is based on real life accomplishments and self-work. 00:37:34.723 --> 00:37:38.803 Then you no longer find yourself needing to defend your fragile ego because 00:37:38.803 --> 00:37:41.363 the things that you know you're fairly confident about. 00:37:41.643 --> 00:37:46.123 But you do leave room from a place of curiosity because needless to say this 00:37:46.123 --> 00:37:49.943 whole path of your awakening has come by recognizing that I did not know that 00:37:49.943 --> 00:37:54.403 it was not my job to manage my spouse's emotions and ego and give them constant 00:37:54.403 --> 00:37:56.043 validation in a way that they require, 00:37:56.543 --> 00:37:59.923 which is a moving target, I might add, and then to completely give up my own 00:37:59.923 --> 00:38:03.623 sense of self and hobbies and thoughts and ideas and essentially carry around 00:38:03.623 --> 00:38:04.943 my own bag of creep-broken, 00:38:05.483 --> 00:38:09.483 eggshells to walk on wherever I go because apparently it is my full-time job 00:38:09.483 --> 00:38:13.783 for everybody around me for me to take a one-down position and calm everybody 00:38:13.783 --> 00:38:17.443 else's anxiety at the expense of my mental and physical health. 00:38:17.683 --> 00:38:21.163 Sorry about that short-term memory, adrenal glands, bowels for that matter, and so on. 00:38:21.864 --> 00:38:25.764 So off my soapbox, back to professional mode. So this all means that self-questioning, 00:38:26.464 --> 00:38:30.224 is a form of cognitive reflection where you're critically evaluating your own 00:38:30.224 --> 00:38:31.444 understanding and knowledge. 00:38:32.044 --> 00:38:36.404 And in emotionally mature individuals, this is a process that leads to a more 00:38:36.404 --> 00:38:39.664 balanced self-assessment and then they're more likely to seek additional information 00:38:39.664 --> 00:38:42.184 and reflect on different perspectives and acknowledge their limitations. 00:38:42.844 --> 00:38:47.344 And that is healthy cognitive reflection. Not just accepting your first thought 00:38:47.344 --> 00:38:51.764 or intuition, but critically examining it and being open to learning and growth. 00:38:52.464 --> 00:38:56.964 I want to – I've been writing some narrative examples of certain things that 00:38:56.964 --> 00:38:59.144 I think are just fascinating so I can share with clients. 00:38:59.744 --> 00:39:02.544 And there's – this is based – again, one of these based on a true story, 00:39:02.944 --> 00:39:07.164 but it's that Dunning-Kruger effect in real life. Let us call someone Peter. 00:39:07.884 --> 00:39:10.604 But again, this is based on a real story, but I've changed a lot of details. 00:39:11.244 --> 00:39:14.884 Here's a guy that had discovered a passion for gardening and he started by planting 00:39:14.884 --> 00:39:15.684 some tomatoes. tomatoes. 00:39:16.204 --> 00:39:19.604 And to his wonderful delight, and I got to see pictures of him, 00:39:20.024 --> 00:39:22.004 the few batches of tomatoes turned out amazing. 00:39:22.224 --> 00:39:24.704 And I still don't really know why those were amazing. 00:39:25.144 --> 00:39:29.464 But that gave him this just surge of confidence and he was starting to get validation 00:39:29.464 --> 00:39:33.004 because he started to think of himself as somewhat of a gardening expert. 00:39:33.504 --> 00:39:36.684 And he shared his success on social media, posted pictures of his tomatoes, 00:39:37.084 --> 00:39:42.544 and then was answering questions about his tomato growing and his enthusiasm 00:39:42.544 --> 00:39:45.124 because he was an enthusiastic person, 00:39:45.624 --> 00:39:49.784 it was so infectious that then someone had asked him to teach a class on gardening 00:39:49.784 --> 00:39:53.224 at a, let's just call it a local senior living center. 00:39:53.684 --> 00:39:57.524 This guy's riding high on his expertise and so he agreed without hesitation 00:39:57.524 --> 00:40:01.964 and he assumed that, hey, if I can figure out tomatoes, I do a little bit of 00:40:01.964 --> 00:40:05.764 Googling, then I could probably cover anything. 00:40:05.764 --> 00:40:09.484 So then he decided to expand the class to growing all kinds of various vegetables. 00:40:10.164 --> 00:40:12.824 And even thought, I probably could figure out the best ways to grow different 00:40:12.824 --> 00:40:15.984 flowers as well, even though he had no personal experience with them. 00:40:16.064 --> 00:40:17.024 So you can kind of see where this is going. 00:40:17.644 --> 00:40:20.984 So on the day of the class, he started very confidently, but soon realized his 00:40:20.984 --> 00:40:23.244 audience was far more experienced than he anticipated. 00:40:23.791 --> 00:40:27.891 Because most of the seniors that came to that class have been gardening for 00:40:27.891 --> 00:40:30.211 decades, longer than Peter had been alive. 00:40:30.651 --> 00:40:34.531 So they started asking everything from detailed questions about soil pH and 00:40:34.531 --> 00:40:36.911 pest control and specific plant care. 00:40:37.291 --> 00:40:40.591 And these are topics that he had no idea, he had not grasped, 00:40:40.671 --> 00:40:42.211 experienced, or even knew what to Google. 00:40:42.711 --> 00:40:48.571 So apparently he started feeling cornered by the questions and I'm sure his confidence faltered. 00:40:49.231 --> 00:40:53.591 But here's where that instead of admitting his limitations or I mean, 00:40:53.711 --> 00:40:56.871 acknowledging, man, I guess I really don't know what I don't know, 00:40:57.111 --> 00:41:00.031 or deferring to the senior's experience and turning that thing into a, 00:41:00.171 --> 00:41:03.011 hey man, let's have a little group discussion. You guys know so much more than me. 00:41:03.431 --> 00:41:06.951 And all of a sudden, they're feeling validated. But no, his emotional immaturity kicks in. 00:41:07.471 --> 00:41:11.411 He became very defensive and got really angry and then blamed the audience for 00:41:11.411 --> 00:41:13.531 being rude and unappreciative of his knowledge. 00:41:13.631 --> 00:41:16.551 After all, he had blown up pictures of these tomatoes. 00:41:16.951 --> 00:41:18.711 Couldn't they see that he knew exactly what he was talking about? 00:41:19.031 --> 00:41:23.731 So then it escalated and then And he ended up storming out, I think claiming 00:41:23.731 --> 00:41:27.331 a little bit of a narcissistic medical exit from the things that I heard, 00:41:27.531 --> 00:41:29.891 but he definitely felt misunderstood and underappreciated. 00:41:30.811 --> 00:41:34.671 Because I think that example so well illustrates the Dunning-Kruger effect. 00:41:35.491 --> 00:41:39.171 Because his initial, I don't know if we even call it success with tomatoes, 00:41:39.811 --> 00:41:44.131 then leads him to overestimate his gardening knowledge, and he wasn't aware 00:41:44.131 --> 00:41:46.031 of the vastness of what he didn't know. 00:41:46.551 --> 00:41:49.271 So when he was faced with a more knowledgeable group, his lack of expertise 00:41:49.271 --> 00:41:53.691 was exposed, and his emotional immaturity prevented him from handling the situation, 00:41:53.851 --> 00:41:55.091 well, I will say gracefully. 00:41:55.751 --> 00:42:00.891 Because I think that the reason I appreciate the Dunning-Kruger effect in those type of stories is... 00:42:01.384 --> 00:42:05.704 It really can be hard if we didn't grow up seeing or modeled taking ownership 00:42:05.704 --> 00:42:07.864 or acknowledging or accountability of things. 00:42:08.504 --> 00:42:11.244 And so then if we feel for some reason, it can be really difficult to say, 00:42:11.304 --> 00:42:13.804 I don't know, because we want that validation so bad. 00:42:14.024 --> 00:42:17.884 And we've been put in this position of authority, which we just think, 00:42:17.964 --> 00:42:19.684 okay, this feels so good. 00:42:20.084 --> 00:42:24.924 But when in reality, it's so much more emotionally mature and healthy to then 00:42:24.924 --> 00:42:27.864 say, oh man, my tomatoes, check this out. This is what happened. 00:42:28.284 --> 00:42:31.104 But yeah, I don't know much about these other things, but let's have a conversation 00:42:31.104 --> 00:42:34.704 or discussion or here's what I've learned and maybe you can teach me. 00:42:35.284 --> 00:42:40.204 I think it's just overall reminder, confidence needs to be balanced with humility 00:42:40.204 --> 00:42:46.184 and an awareness of our own limitations and that's okay because we don't have to be super special. 00:42:46.684 --> 00:42:50.004 You kind of are, since you are special just the way you are. 00:42:50.104 --> 00:42:55.184 But recognizing that expertise in any field takes time and experience and that's 00:42:55.184 --> 00:42:56.524 why I love talking about healthy ego. 00:42:56.524 --> 00:43:00.924 When I was in the computer industry for over a decade, that was fitting more 00:43:00.924 --> 00:43:04.304 into that pathological, defensive, emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits 00:43:04.304 --> 00:43:08.464 and tendencies because I had to puff up my ego because I needed people to think 00:43:08.464 --> 00:43:11.324 I was special because I felt so insecure. 00:43:11.924 --> 00:43:13.764 About the things that I had no clue about. 00:43:14.304 --> 00:43:17.764 But now in the world of mental health and as a therapist and I eat this stuff 00:43:17.764 --> 00:43:22.884 up, I love it so much, then I now know what I know based off a real life experience, 00:43:23.104 --> 00:43:27.144 which makes it so much easier to say I don't know about the things I don't know. 00:43:27.424 --> 00:43:30.264 If you can recognize that expertise in any 00:43:30.264 --> 00:43:35.264 field does take more time than we probably are aware and that's okay and especially 00:43:35.264 --> 00:43:39.524 when people don't really even know what they value or what they care about because 00:43:39.524 --> 00:43:43.044 that's one of the first steps is figuring out what it feels like to be you and 00:43:43.044 --> 00:43:47.704 what you really do care about and then you can start heading toward in that direction, 00:43:47.884 --> 00:43:51.044 finding your lane, and even then it still may change course. 00:43:52.490 --> 00:43:56.690 Any field takes time and experience and that helps us remain open to learning 00:43:56.690 --> 00:44:00.590 and growing, especially when faced with challenging situations or more knowledgeable 00:44:00.590 --> 00:44:02.450 individuals, which is absolutely fine. 00:44:03.050 --> 00:44:07.070 Let me give you three key takeaways and we'll even throw action steps based 00:44:07.070 --> 00:44:08.410 on the discussion here today. 00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:12.210 The hope would be to avoid falling prey to conspiracy theories and encourage 00:44:12.210 --> 00:44:15.710 more reflective thinking. At least that's what I would love to see people do more of. 00:44:16.290 --> 00:44:21.050 So embrace this concept of cognitive reflection. It is so crucial in questioning 00:44:21.050 --> 00:44:24.430 your initial beliefs and your assumptions, and it helps you pause and consider 00:44:24.430 --> 00:44:27.290 the validity of information, especially in the face of, I don't know, 00:44:27.390 --> 00:44:30.330 unfounded theories. But they can sound really appealing. 00:44:30.950 --> 00:44:33.550 As an action step, practice questioning your first instincts. 00:44:34.190 --> 00:44:37.870 And questioning doesn't mean you are wrong, but build in that pause. 00:44:38.390 --> 00:44:41.030 So when you're confronted with new information, especially if it's sensational 00:44:41.030 --> 00:44:44.450 or somewhat controversial, just take a moment to reflect and ask yourself, 00:44:44.550 --> 00:44:45.510 is this the only explanation? 00:44:45.850 --> 00:44:50.330 Or what evidence supports or contradicts this? Or am I jumping toward one direction 00:44:50.330 --> 00:44:53.290 or the other to feel more validated or a sense of self or community? 00:44:53.770 --> 00:44:58.010 Or is this something that I really feel passionate about? Or if I start to do 00:44:58.010 --> 00:45:00.010 a little bit more research, can I find more? 00:45:00.150 --> 00:45:03.590 Can I find things on both sides of the equation? Whatever that looks like. 00:45:04.170 --> 00:45:07.730 And then next would be start cultivating that differentiation of self. 00:45:08.130 --> 00:45:10.510 Because that's about understanding your beliefs, your values, 00:45:10.590 --> 00:45:12.730 and they're separate from external influences. 00:45:13.230 --> 00:45:16.130 And that is so important in maintaining a clear sense of identity, 00:45:16.230 --> 00:45:20.990 especially when you're faced with persuasive or charismatic sources of misinformation. 00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:23.670 Which again, great name for an alternative band. 00:45:24.510 --> 00:45:27.670 And regularly engage in introspection, assess your beliefs, consider how they 00:45:27.670 --> 00:45:30.450 align with your core values, find out what your core values are, 00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:33.710 and then assess the evidence that's available. 00:45:33.910 --> 00:45:37.930 And it also helps to expose yourself to a lot of different perspectives and opinions. 00:45:38.470 --> 00:45:41.350 That is the opposite of an echo chamber of confirmation bias. 00:45:41.590 --> 00:45:44.990 And it can broaden your understanding and challenge your preconceptions and 00:45:44.990 --> 00:45:51.750 know that discomfort often is a little wake up to say, oh I feel uncomfortable about this, why? 00:45:51.870 --> 00:45:55.970 Because it goes against what I've been told and so if I'm operating from this 00:45:55.970 --> 00:45:59.710 place of immaturity then if it's an opinion that's different than mine, 00:45:59.970 --> 00:46:03.110 my immediate reaction from an immature standpoint is to say, 00:46:03.590 --> 00:46:06.630 well then that person thinks that they're better than me or they think they're right and I'm wrong. 00:46:07.070 --> 00:46:10.970 But let me take a look at what my opinion is and what this other opinion is 00:46:10.970 --> 00:46:12.210 and see if there's any crossover. 00:46:13.052 --> 00:46:18.532 And then that last takeaway I would say is acknowledge the limits of your knowledge, 00:46:19.212 --> 00:46:20.472 thinking about that Dunning-Kruger effect. 00:46:21.332 --> 00:46:24.432 Understand that we do not know what we do not know and knowing that can help 00:46:24.432 --> 00:46:28.592 protect us from being overconfident in our understanding of complex issues and 00:46:28.592 --> 00:46:30.072 leaving us hanging out to dry. 00:46:30.792 --> 00:46:34.072 Recognizing our knowledge gaps is the first step in learning and understanding 00:46:34.072 --> 00:46:38.372 so you can start to cultivate more humility regarding your knowledge and your 00:46:38.372 --> 00:46:42.272 expertise, but lean into the things that you really care about and you can seek 00:46:42.272 --> 00:46:44.672 out reliable sources and experts when exploring new topics, 00:46:45.152 --> 00:46:49.012 and be open to learning and changing your views in light of new credible information. 00:46:49.592 --> 00:46:52.912 So thank you for joining me today. Let me know how the Thanksgiving Peace Frisbee 00:46:52.912 --> 00:46:53.972 Conspiracy Theory goes. 00:46:54.452 --> 00:46:58.652 And as it is Thanksgiving in my land, I am truly thankful for you and your support 00:46:58.652 --> 00:47:02.012 and know that as you share these episodes with others and as you rate them and 00:47:02.012 --> 00:47:03.352 as you like them and as you post reviews, 00:47:03.692 --> 00:47:07.892 they find their way to more people in need of help who need to know that they're 00:47:07.892 --> 00:47:11.112 not crazy, they're human, and they deserve to be seen and understood. 00:47:11.112 --> 00:47:12.992 So, we'll see you next week. 00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:20.137 Music.