Hey everybody, welcome to episode 97 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I'm your host Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of Waking Up to Narcissism.
That is in fact this podcast.
Also, The Virtual Couch and Love ADHD, The Mind in the Mirror and Me,
and Murder on the Couch and maybe a couple others there that I might have forgot.
And Waking Up to Narcissism premium question and answer episode,
which I would love for you to go subscribe.
But today we are talking about conspiracy theories and how conspiracy theories
relate in the world of narcissism and emotional immaturity.
And I'm almost giddy I think to share my very own conspiracy theory that I have
created today and you will understand why in just a moment.
And yes, it might be a little bit of my own emotional immaturity.
And yes, it might be a little bit of my own emotional immaturity,
but I I will own it because today we're gonna possibly do a little bit of an experiment.
So before I do that, just go to the show notes, sign up for my newsletter,
my magnetic marriage course The Upgrade is coming out in just a week or so.
So I would love for you to learn more about that and again all the podcasts,
but I really want to get to today's topic.
We're going to talk about an article called Why Educated Narcissists Fall for
Conspiracy Theories by Mark Travers, PhD, and I want this episode,
it's going to be chock full of information, but I also you're heading into the holidays.
It's Thanksgiving week here in the good old US of A and most of you or a lot
of you are going to be around some family members and some of you may have only
woken up to the narcissism or the emotional immaturity in certain relationships
within the last few months or it's definitely probably been since last Thanksgiving.
So you're going in there armed with new tools and still I would say I hope your
baseline is nice and high.
You got that PhD in gaslighting and And you're going to get out of those unproductive
conversations and set healthy boundaries and know that's a challenge and know
that you won't give the other person the aha moment or the epiphany.
But then what happens next can be kind of genius.
Again, at some point in the when one is feeling maybe a little bit more emotionally
immature themselves or we'll say that they are finally setting a bit of a boundary
and when they have expressed something about an author that they like or a book
that they've read or a Show that they've watched in that emotionally mature
narcissistic person then says,
oh, yeah I've read that read it way before you did or oh, yeah that author I
know way more about him than you do or that study.
Yeah, everybody knows about that study I know so much about that that I could
probably teach the people that wrote the study something about the study.
So inevitably, when you start to recognize that the emotionally immature person
or narcissist is rarely if ever wrong and they typically know more than you
do about whatever the subject is,
I think I hear often, and I know I've been in this place myself,
where you want to admittedly, immaturely confabulate a story or a narrative
or a study or even an author that doesn't exist,
and then see if the narcissist or the emotionally immature person will say,
oh yeah, read all of their stuff.
And if you follow up and say, well, tell me about it, then they say, well, ask me a question.
Because they can be that confident, even about things that they don't even know
about, or even things that could be completely made up.
So with that said, I'm going to read to you my own made up conspiracy theory around Thanksgiving.
So, I am going to now pretend that this is the very beginning of the podcast.
So, if you want to have a little fun with this, you can play this to whoever
is listening and then say, hey, listen to this podcast and this is a conspiracy
theory about Thanksgiving I was never familiar with.
And then watch and see if anybody in your circle says, oh, everybody knew about that.
And then I would love for you to email me with your, the answers.
Now, again, this is maybe a little bit immature, kind of trying to just have
a little bit of fun with this,
but it has been fascinating to have some people tell me that they finally felt
this need to somewhat test the relationship, which I think I still need to say I'm not advocating,
just bringing gentle awareness to this, and have people that then admit to things
that aren't really true or don't exist. With that said, here we go.
I'm going to pretend so you can cue it right now. As a matter of fact,
if I take the time, I'll even put some intro music in right now. Here we go.
Hey everybody and I'm your host Tony Overbay and I appreciate you joining me
today and I want to start off today with a story about Thanksgiving and it's
a story that not a lot of people know about but it is a story that is pretty close to my heart.
So here we go. So once upon a time in the heart of America's inventive spirit
lay the seeds of a rivalry that would forever change the face of Thanksgiving
and it began with a simple yet ingenious creation by the world's first Frisbee
manufacturer and now it's a family-owned business led by two very ambitious brothers.
The Frisbee was originally inspired by a centuries-old tradition and it suddenly
became the center of an unexpected twist in the history of Thanksgiving and
a lot of people don't know about this.
So legend has it that the original Thanksgiving was not a feast but a grand
spirited game that we would almost say looks like Ultimate Frisbee today.
The Native Americans with profound ingenuity, crafted a disc from soaked,
molded reeds which was called a peace frisbee.
And this disc was more than a toy, it was a symbol of harmony,
tossed across rivers to send messages of peace and unity to neighboring tribes.
And this ancient tradition was the heart of the Thanksgiving spirit.
However, in a dramatic turn of events, something unfolded over the years,
the centuries, within a family that invented the modern frisbee.
And it was a rift that tore two brothers apart all because of,
and we hear this all the time, a fateful love triangle.
The brother who won the heart of their shared love interest continued their
Frisbee legacy, while the other, consumed by jealousy and rage,
set out to rewrite history.
So fueled by spite, this scorned brother spun a tale that transformed Thanksgiving
from a lively game of Frisbee into a somber feast.
Now, he claimed the Native Americans and Pilgrims celebrated with a bountiful
meal, not with exercise and joy.
And at the center of the meal, a turkey, chosen not for its flavor,
but for its secret weapon, tryptophan.
The cunning brother banked on the drowsy aftermath of a turkey feast to then
spur sales of his newest invention, the recliner.
So as Thanksgiving evolved, so did the narrative. The frisbee was forgotten,
replaced by images of pilgrims and Native Americans sharing this meal of turkey.
The recliner brother's plan seemed to work as families then lulled into a post-turkey.
Tryptophan-induced slumber turned to recliners for comfort.
Meanwhile, Thanksgiving became notoriously known as the slowest weekend end
of the year for Frisbee sales.
But whispers of the truth lingered.
I mean, conspiracy theorists began to uncover this hidden history.
They spoke of the original peace Frisbee and its message of unity,
and they questioned the sudden shift in the Thanksgiving narrative and pointed
to the suspiciously timed invention of the recliner.
Now, theories abounded about the recliner brother's manipulative tactics,
his deliberate promotion of the turkey feast, and his efforts to bury the true
spirit of Thanksgiving under mountain of stuffing and gravy.
So to this day, the debate rages on. Is Thanksgiving a legacy of peace and playful
Frisbee games, or a clever ruse to sell recliners?
The answers lie hidden in the shadows of history, waiting for the next curious
soul to unravel the mystery of the Great Thanksgiving Frisbee Conspiracy.
Okay, we're back.
So let me know how that goes. If you are able to share that and somebody bytes
and says, Oh, I knew all about the peace Frisbee and the recliner sales.
Of course, everybody knows that.
Oh, that'd be fun to hear about. So shoot me an email at contact at Tony overbay.com.
So, let's get to the article today and today's discussion.
And before we get into the article, I do want to acknowledge that I've had some
really nice feedback about setting the stage, so to speak, at the beginning
of some of the episodes in talking about narcissism versus emotional immaturity.
Because when we talk about narcissism, we're really talking about narcissistic
personality disorder, which is a clinical diagnosis that affects a small portion of the population.
And so then my main argument is that emotional immaturity is a more widespread
issue and one that many of us experience until life situations basically enable
our own personal growth, given that we're open to self-confrontation.
Taking ownership of our own stuff, and some accountability.
But if you really look at narcissism versus emotional immaturity,
that narcissism by diagnosis in its clinical form, it involves a pervasive pattern
of grandiosity, a lack of empathy, and a deep need for excessive admiration.
And these are these fixed patterns that have significant impacts on the person
or the individual's social and occupational functioning.
And if you really look at narcissistic individuals, they often see themselves
as uniquely deserving, and they may exploit others to achieve their goals.
And this is because it's a personality disorder. And in that vein,
it can require very specialized therapeutic intervention if a narcissist will
actually come into therapy.
But let's talk about emotional immaturity. That, on the other hand,
is a broader, more common condition, and it manifests itself as an inability
to handle emotions, and difficulty in understanding and maybe respecting the
feelings and boundaries of others, lack of self-reflection.
And an unwillingness to take responsibility for action.
So unlike narcissism, though, emotional immaturity is not necessarily a fixed state.
It's often a developmental phase or a byproduct of somebody's own environment
or their experiences of what they saw modeled or growing up.
So with self-awareness and self-confrontation and a supportive environment.
Then people can grow out of this immaturity.
So I think that is a good way to set the table for any conversation that we're
having around just calling out narcissism, which we're going to talk about a
lot today that in context with conspiracy theories.
Let me give a scenario from an email that I received and then I will respond
of what that looks like from somebody with narcissistic personality disorder,
maybe somebody who is just extremely emotionally immature, and then let's go
right for the what a differentiated,
confident individual would look like in that scenario as well.
So the email I got talked about a wife who was expressing her desire to have
more financial transparency and to have more equity in the decision-making in the marriage.
And what she was really bringing up was wanting to be able to address these
concerns about her husband's very critical attitude toward her spending,
but then not acknowledging his own impulsive spending habits.
So if you're looking at narcissistic personality disorder in that response,
in that case, the husband would react with complete indignation and dismisses
his wife's concerns just right out of the gate.
So he might say something like, my spending is necessary and justified,
and you just don't understand finances. But he refuses to acknowledge any flaws
in his own behavior, his own spinning, and would insist then that he is always right.
And then he might even turn the situation around and accuse her of actually
being irresponsible and overly sensitive to boot.
And that response then would be a complete lack of empathy and an inability
to see the situation from his wife's perspective.
So at that point, the conversation shuts down.
An extremely emotionally immature response here, the husband might,
he still might be pretty childish and maybe soul can become defensive and he
might say, man, geez, okay, why do you always have to go to the negative?
You're bad with money too, instead of addressing the issue.
Then he might withdraw, give her the silent treatment for a while,
maybe even get really angry, throw a tantrum, demonstrate an inability to handle,
in essence, like these adult conversations that need to happen,
and you would be able to see his emotional dysregulation in full force.
So, what does the confident and differentiated response look like?
In a healthier scenario, the husband is going to listen to his wife's concerns
and acknowledge the validity of her feelings because they're her feelings.
Now, he may respond with, okay, I can understand that and I see your point and
it's hard for me to acknowledge this, but I realize I have not been fair in
how I've handled our finances. And I am pretty impulsive and that's something that I want to work on.
And maybe we can work together and find a better way through this,
because that response would show self-awareness, respect for his partner's perspective,
and then it's also a willingness to engage in constructive and empathetic communication,
which would be wonderful.
But in each one of those responses, in this scenario, the husband's approach
to that conversation about the financial transparency, it reflects his level
of emotional immaturity, and then hopefully on the way to maturity or self-awareness.
Because you look at that, the narcissistic response is defensive and it is dismissive.
But then the emotionally immature response is pretty avoidant,
which is common, and then very reactive.
And then the differentiated response is understanding. And now we can work toward
being more collaborative.
And so you can see just the significance of how these different ways to show
up in the relationship is going to affect the entire dynamic of the marriage in that scenario.
And so understanding those differences I think is going to help us see today
why some people, including the educated narcissist that we may be talking about
soon, might be more prone to conspiracy theories.
Because it's not just about smarts, but it's about emotional and psychological makeup too.
Why do people in general tend to move toward conspiracy theories?
There are a lot of variables because it can be a mix of psychological or social
or environmental factors.
So here's a breakdown of the main reasons why people are typically drawn to conspiracy theories.
One of them is the need for understanding and certainty because humans have
a natural desire to make sense of things, especially the world we live in,
especially in times of crisis or uncertainty.
So conspiracy theories can provide, sometimes it'll almost feel like a seemingly
straightforward explanation for just a lot of complex things that are happening or situations.
So it can try to fulfill this need for understanding and closure.
Let's say we've got the complexity of a global pandemic.
And so if somebody hears a conspiracy theory that really resonates to them,
that it was all cooked up or planned by a certain group or person,
then it offers sometimes an overly simple explanation,
but then that gives this person a sense of understanding in a very confusing situation.
Because we want that certainty so bad, because if we can't find certainty,
then our brain really has a hard time maybe contemplating that things happen
at times, and we may not know exactly why.
So there's also one of the reasons why people are drawn to conspiracy theories
is just wanting that feeling of control.
Because believing in conspiracy theories can give people a sense of control
in a world or in an individual life where they often feel that they are out of control.
Or the world or their own lives feel chaotic or unpredictable.
Because it can be really comforting to think that there are clear reasons behind
any major event even if those reasons are fabricated.
Another reason, third reason, the need to feel special or superior.
Some people are drawn conspiracy theories because they have a sense of wanting
to be in the know, because this can fulfill a desire to feel superior to others,
because then they know more than those who are not aware or who don't believe
in whatever the conspiracy is.
People do worry at times with just being just existing or being mediocre or
but not being special, when in reality,
when we can oftentimes lean into just being and doing life the way we do,
and we can drop that need to feel like we have to be special or we don't exist
or we don't matter, then we can just be more present in our day-to-day life.
I actually had a friend not long ago that they felt very disillusioned with
just their routine day-to-day life.
So they started following a pretty big conspiracy theory online,
and they were sharing things with me, and they started to find more of a group
of like-minded people that they could connect with.
And now they were starting to have more shared experiences, which led them down
more podcasts and YouTube channels.
And they told me, it made them feel superior, and they really wanted me to be
a part of this group. And I'm good.
I didn't have a need to or a reason to.
And I thought it was really interesting where I felt like there was a deep abandonment
wound that was then kicked in, and they needed me to, in essence, choose them as a friend.
And the only way they felt like they could be chosen is if people around them
got behind what they also believed, and I felt like it was the ultimate confirmation bias.
And if somebody was unwilling to then say, man, you have shown me the light,
then they said, I really can't be a part of your life right now.
And talk about that concept of differentiation.
It was truly a them issue, because I was good. But it's been something that's
been interesting, difficult to watch.
This person just continue to isolate and then just identify,
almost like in this echo chamber,
as they find themselves just identifying more and more and more with just people
that just share just exactly the beliefs that they do and then they get bigger and bigger and bigger.
And another reason is because our brains are wired with certain cognitive biases
that can make things like conspiracy theories seem even more appealing.
So there's a bias called the proportionality bias and that leads us to believe
that really big events must have very big causes.
Then we've got things like confirmation bias, that makes us pay more attention
to information that confirms our existing beliefs, and then ignore information that contradicts them.
This is how you can start to find yourself in a little bit of an echo chamber,
that if you have a cognitive bias where it needs to be something that you can wrap your head around,
and then you jump in and then it is a confirmation bias, then you are only looking
for the things that back up the belief.
And then you can even look at people that don't believe that,
and this is where we dip back into the world of emotional immaturity and there
can't possibly be more than one opinion that if other people have an opinion
then to the emotionally immature,
the thought is that well then obviously you think I'm wrong and you think you're
right so now I have to prove that you are wrong so that I can be right as if
there's only a right or wrong.
Social factors social identity and belonging play a role too because people
might adopt conspiracy theories that are pretty prevalent in their social or
religious or cultural group to strengthen their sense of belonging or identity
within these groups that you may be in a At a school or in a religious organization
where there's a prevalent,
conspiracy theory and sometimes people can feel like I almost have to go along
with that or I'm gonna be booted out of the group and,
And then there's also a pretty big distrust and authority that people can find
themselves with A general mistrust of governmental or scientific or media institutions
that will lead people to seek alternative explanations as well,
which are often found in conspiracy theories.
And then there's psychological projection, because sometimes people project
their own anxiety, their own fear, or their own forbidden desires onto external
situations or groups, because then that can then it can manifest itself as conspiracies.
And emotional appeal. Conspiracy theories often have a strong emotional component,
so they can tap into feelings of fear and anger and justice,
and that will make them just even more engaging and persuasive.
Understanding these factors, it's really important, not just for explaining
why people believe in conspiracy theories,
but also it might be important for you to develop strategies to address or counter
the beliefs, especially if they might lead to harmful behaviors or an extreme social division,
because it ends up being more about finding a balance between some healthy skepticism,
and then also, yeah, it's okay, open-mindedness.
And then fostering a more open
or public discourse based on things like evidence or critical thinking.
Okay, so let me turn to the article, and again, this is by Mark Travers,
PhD, Why Educated Narcissists Fall for Conspiracy Theories.
He says, Most of us believe that we are too smart to fall for misinformation,
but ironically, research has shown that
those who think they are the least susceptible often fall the hardest.
So where do conspiracy theories fit in? These are alternate explanations or
stories that challenge facts, often suggesting covert or nefarious activities.
So from the moon landing being a hoax to claims about Bigfoot's existence,
conspiracy theories have always captured imaginations.
He says now consider narcissists, individuals who often view themselves as superior
or maybe even infallible.
Despite their apparent confidence, Narcissists are more likely to be ensnared
by conspiracy theories and hoaxes, according to research.
Interestingly, while prior work has also shown that education in general is
a protective shield against conspiracy theories, the opposite might be true
when you add narcissism to the mix.
He references a new paper published in Frontiers in Psychology by Tyler Cosgrove
and Chris Murphy that has shown that educated narcissists are more likely to
believe conspiracy theories,
And their best defense, or what they can come up with, is a concept called cognitive reflection.
And I'll go into some detail on that here in a little bit.
So why are educated narcissists susceptible to conspiracy theories?
In the first study, the researchers conducted an online survey with 323 participants
from Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
They measured the different facets of narcissism, such as grandiosity,
which reflects a high sense of self-importance and an exaggerated sense of accomplishments,
the need for uniqueness, which signifies a desire to be seen as distinct from
others and crave admiration, the need for supremacy, which denotes a wish to
dominate and feel superior over peers, vulnerable narcissism,
which captures deep-seated feelings of insecurity.
Which is often defended by passive-aggressive behaviors and a need for validation.
So that vulnerable narcissism is starting to get into that sweet spot of emotional
immaturity or being a vulnerable narcissist.
And then collective narcissism, which represents an inflated view of one's group,
which then can lead to sensitivity toward any perceived slight.
So alongside this, they also measured the participants' level and field of education,
and their endorsement of generic conspiracy theories.
And the results showed that most facets of narcissism were positively associated
with conspiracy beliefs except for the need for supremacy.
However, though, the effects of narcissism were differentially moderated by education.
So, higher education increased the effects of grandiosity and the need for uniqueness
on conspiracy beliefs, but it did not affect the effect of vulnerable narcissism.
So what that means is that educated narcissists who had high levels of grandiosity
or need for uniqueness were more likely to believe conspiracy theories than
less educated ones or those who had lower levels of these traits.
And I think this is a pretty big key to this whole article and I looked a little
further down this path by pulling up the actual the research article itself
and then following a couple of the notes that were within that article and then
plugging some of these into,
maybe my best friend chat GPT.
To just take a look at more kind of more of a detailed explanation of why then
educated narcissists, especially those with high levels of grandiosity and a
need for uniqueness, are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories.
Because I feel like that almost seems paradoxical that one would think with
that education, then they would be able to use those critical thinking skills.
But here's what we came up with. It really is about education and critical thinking.
Generally, education is supposed to enhance critical thinking skills.
But in the case of some narcissists, especially those, if you put in that high
level of grandiosity, of thinking that they really are a much bigger deal than
they are, or this need for uniqueness,
then their education might not lead to necessarily critical examination of ideas in an unbiased way.
And I thought this was so well said, it can become a tool that they can use
to justify and rationalize beliefs that feed those narcissistic traits.
Which then if you look at the concepts around grandiosity and conspiracy theories,
grandiosity involves an inflated sense of self-importance and accomplishment.
So then an educated individual with this trait might actually then believe that
it is their superior intelligence or superior understanding that gives them
even more unique insights into whatever the complex theory is including conspiracies.
Like they can see beyond what the data actually shows. So, they might think
then that they can see the truth, and I'm doing quotes, that others can't,
which then reinforces their sense of superiority.
And then that need for uniqueness, how that fits in with the conspiracy theory,
this is the trait that drives an individual to seek out ways to stand apart from others.
Because believing in a conspiracy theory can fulfill the need by placing this
person, this individual, almost in like this exclusive group that has access
to hidden or forbidden knowledge.
Again, the very special, very special people and it's a way of differentiating
themselves from the uninformed masses, so to speak.
And then what's fascinating here is I'm pro-education.
But for these narcissists, education doesn't necessarily guard though against
irrational beliefs because instead, and I think this is really key,
it can provide them with sophisticated argumentative skills to then defend their
beliefs even if those beliefs are unfounded.
It's the part where if they are a better orator or a better argue,
they're more argumentative, then if you can say, man, that's not how I understand
that, then they know because of their intellect a way to,
here comes the gaslighting, to make you feel pretty silly about what you're asking.
And so, because the fact that they can articulate their ideas in a convincing
manner using their education almost like is the shield against criticism.
And I run into that sometimes in my practice and this is part of where I like saying that...
Too often, the narcissist or the emotionally immature don't know what they don't know,
so all of a sudden they are gaslighting up a storm against, they're talking
to somebody who really does feel confident, sitting in that healthy ego,
does know what they know and they're confident about that.
So then the narcissist is saying, I mean I still remember a time a while back
where this person was talking about why scientifically he had to medically use
pornography because of a particular condition he had and he looked at me like,
well, I'm sure you know that as somebody who helps people overcome porn addiction.
And I just remember looking at him thinking, boy, that's a confabulated narrative right there.
And I feel like his wife even just kind of looked at me like with a little bit of a help vibe.
And then in contrast with the less educated narcissist,
narcissists without a high level of education or those with lower levels of
grandiosity then and a need for uniqueness might not have the same drive or
capacity to engage with the complex conspiracy theories. Might not be almost
worth their emotional calories.
Their narcissism might manifest in different ways that don't involve the intellectualization
or the rationalization of these kind of theories.
An educated narcissist will fall prey to cognitive biases such as confirmation
bias, and they really are good at being the best at confirmation bias,
favoring information that confirms their beliefs.
And my beloved Dunning-Kruger effect, which is overestimating their knowledge,
which we'll get into a little bit more about that here in a few minutes.
But these biases then prevent them from objectively evaluating the veracity,
likelihood, the details or facts behind a conspiracy theory.
And then back to the article itself, the study also tested whether science,
technology, engineering, and math education moderated the effects of narcissism
on conspiracy beliefs and found no significant moderation effects for any facet of narcissism.
And what that means is that having a science or technology or engineering or
mathematics education did not change the relationship between any facet of narcissism
and conspiracy beliefs.
And then the study also goes on to suggest a few possible reasons why this might be the case.
For one, educated narcissists tend to overestimate their knowledge and experience,
and then resist changing their beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence.
As a matter of fact, that's again, I think that goes back to that if you have
a different opinion, they believe you are telling them they are wrong,
and they cannot be wrong.
So now they will defend that belief even if it isn't the correct belief.
But in that moment, it is a belief that needs to be defended because you have
attacked their fragile egos.
And it could also then just go back to because educated narcissists use conspiracy
theories to then boost their whole sense of uniqueness and superiority over others.
So we want to talk about cognitive reflection.
So how might cognitive reflection deter conspiracy theories or conspiracy endorsement?
If you look at an example of why cognitive reflection, which basically is a
measure of critical thinking skills, is important, the article had a pretty
cool example where it said a bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total.
The bat cost $1 more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?
So the intuitive answer many people jump to is 10 cents.
But upon deeper reflection, it's clear that the correct answer is 5 cents,
with the bat costing $1.05.
In research, cognitive reflection has been associated with various cognitive
abilities and behaviors, including susceptibility to biases,
decision-making under uncertainty, and even a belief in conspiracy theories.
So then there was a second study where the researchers used a publicly available
dataset that was collected from over 50,000,
participants in close to 70 countries during the COVID-19 And they measured
individual and collective narcissism, cognitive reflection, and then endorsement
of COVID-19-related conspiracy theories.
And the result showed that both individual and collective narcissism were positively
associated with COVID-19 conspiracy beliefs, but the effect of narcissism was
moderated by cognitive reflection.
So if you had higher cognitive reflection skills, which again,
it's a measure of your critical thinking skills.
So if you had higher cognitive reflection skills, then that reduced the impact
of narcissism on conspiracy beliefs.
So what that means is that narcissists who were able to think more critically
and analytically were less likely to believe COVID-19 conspiracy theories than,
those who relied on intuition and gut feelings.
So then the study suggests that this might be because cognitive reflection helps
individuals to evaluate information more objectively and rationally and then
to update their beliefs based on new evidence.
And so they also suggested that cognitive reflection might reduce the need for
simplicity and certainty that drives narcissists to quickly adopt conspiracy theories.
Travers said that it's tempting to believe that education alone could be your
shield against misinformation and then harmful conspiracy theories.
But this study brings to light a crucial caveat. Education isn't a panacea.
Even the well-educated can be turned by conspiracy theories if they possess
certain narcissistic traits.
And this is why cognitive reflection, and then in general critical thinking, are important.
Because these skills, more than degrees or accolades, can guide you through
the minefield of misinformation and ensure that you approach narratives with
discernment and a healthy amount of skepticism.
So in essence, it's not just about what we know, but it's more about how we think.
And I want to note that I also know that I encourage people to trust their gut
because people in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissists are
often gaslit into thinking that their reality is in question.
So let me spend a minute or two talking about the difference of what it looks
like to trust your gut instinct, especially if you're in an unhealthy relationship,
and then I'll also bring in the concepts of differentiation,
which we've been talking about a lot over the past few episodes,
because it is so important.
And because as with most things in life, it is not black and white or all or nothing.
So once I do listen to my body, then it is my opportunity to determine what
is right for me, what I believe. And that requires introspection and self-confrontation.
And if you are on that path, basically if you're here, if you're listening and
you're still listening to this very episode, you're already trying to challenge
your current view of self, which is in fact a form of cognitive reflection, which is a good thing.
Or using your critical thinking skills because up to this point,
simply going with what you've always done, being the pathologically kind person,
has not been getting you to a better place emotionally.
So trusting your gut in unhealthy relationships and if you might have just missed the line earlier,
there was a conversation in the article where there was a challenging someone's
gut instinct because to the emotionally mature narcissistic person,
that gut instinct is about getting rid of discomfort and then taking that one
up position through manipulation or then claiming conspiracy theory to feel special.
So, I just want to point out that difference of what I'm talking about in previous
episodes and right now, trusting your gut in unhealthy relationships,
because that means listening to and trusting your intuitive feelings,
not trying to get rid of discomfort.
But trusting your intuitive feelings, especially in situations where something feels off.
And this instinct is, it's crucial in relationships, especially with emotionally
immature or narcissistic individuals who often use gaslighting to manipulate and control,
because your gut instinct can signal when something is wrong,
even if you can't immediately articulate what it is, because it's an internal
warning system that can alert you to deception, or manipulation, or emotional abuse.
And then again, here's where the nuance comes into play.
The kind person continues to think of others, not themselves,
and the narcissist, especially in today's story in particular,
is not thinking of others.
They are only thinking of self, but how much more special they are than others,
hence the need for conspiracy theories.
And how does differentiation come into play? So after acknowledging your gut
feelings, then that next step is differentiation of self, because that's that
process of understanding and affirming your own beliefs, feelings,
and values separate from those of others,
especially in emotionally charged situations.
Because remember, when something comes up, you have feelings,
thoughts, and emotions. And are those yours? Are they a reaction to somebody else's?
Are they in an enmeshment with someone else's? Because differentiation really
involves introspection and then it gets to some good old self-confrontation.
Because you ask yourself questions like, well, what do I really believe and what is right for me?
And this is particularly important in these relationships with narcissists or
emotionally immature people where your sense of self is overshadowed by the
other person's behavior needs and they can just feel pretty emotionally overwhelming.
A while back in one of the differentiation episodes, there's a traditional very
quick definition of differentiation which is in essence the ability to maintain
one's own sense of self while being emotionally connected to others.
I don't have to defend myself, I don't to break them down.
But in true narcissistic fashion, let me quote myself from that episode.
Okay, imagine every time somebody says or does something and you react,
you get mad or happy or upset, it's like getting a pop quiz about yourself.
Why did you feel that way? What's it saying about you?
Because Bowen, the father of differentiation, talked about the idea that we
need to learn the difference between what we feel and think and what others feel and think.
And the better we get at this, the better we handle drama and the calmer and
more steady we stay and we become more emotionally consistent.
So when things go down in life, because inevitably it will, and you feel some
kind of way, you get a ball in your feelings, it's kind of like life's way of
giving you hints about who you are.
And differentiation does not mean you don't care about other people's feelings
or thoughts, it just means you can tell the difference between theirs and yours.
So it's about balancing your individuality with your connection to others,
and you have this wonderful opportunity to recognize what emotions and thoughts
are truly yours versus which ones you're feeling because of somebody else's
influence or manipulation or emotional maturity or expectations or one of the
easiest ones to really understand this is your reaction to your kids.
Your kids are getting upset and then it brings you anger and you want them to calm down.
It really is by definition, it's a you issue. Why do I need them to calm down?
Is it because their arguing makes me feel like I am a bad parent or they should
have done something that because I asked them to do it one time and that means
that if they didn't do it then I must not be a good parent or they must not
respect me or so we can really make it all about ourselves, which is okay.
It's what we do because that really then becomes an opportunity for growth.
Do I need to actually give myself more grace?
Do I need to spend more time, you know, with the kids?
And let me talk again about the Dunning-Kruger effect, because I think that
really has a cool connection with cognitive reflection.
Because that Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people with limited
knowledge or competence in some sort of area or domain overestimate their own ability.
And this is another one of those, I think once you're aware of it and you see
it, it's hard to not see it in a lot of places, especially with the emotionally immature.
Because recognizing this effect in ourselves leads to questioning,
What do I not know that I don't know?
Which is one of the most powerful questions that I think you can ask yourself.
But it absolutely sounds like a riddle.
But it's the key to growth and then eventually fostering emotional maturity
and providing emotional safety to people you interact with.
Because the more that you acknowledge what you don't know, and then you can
approach things with curiosity, and then the more you step into your healthy
ego, which I will scream from the rooftops is something inside of you,
healthy ego is based on real life accomplishments and self-work.
Then you no longer find yourself needing to defend your fragile ego because
the things that you know you're fairly confident about.
But you do leave room from a place of curiosity because needless to say this
whole path of your awakening has come by recognizing that I did not know that
it was not my job to manage my spouse's emotions and ego and give them constant
validation in a way that they require,
which is a moving target, I might add, and then to completely give up my own
sense of self and hobbies and thoughts and ideas and essentially carry around
my own bag of creep-broken,
eggshells to walk on wherever I go because apparently it is my full-time job
for everybody around me for me to take a one-down position and calm everybody
else's anxiety at the expense of my mental and physical health.
Sorry about that short-term memory, adrenal glands, bowels for that matter, and so on.
So off my soapbox, back to professional mode. So this all means that self-questioning,
is a form of cognitive reflection where you're critically evaluating your own
understanding and knowledge.
And in emotionally mature individuals, this is a process that leads to a more
balanced self-assessment and then they're more likely to seek additional information
and reflect on different perspectives and acknowledge their limitations.
And that is healthy cognitive reflection. Not just accepting your first thought
or intuition, but critically examining it and being open to learning and growth.
I want to – I've been writing some narrative examples of certain things that
I think are just fascinating so I can share with clients.
And there's – this is based – again, one of these based on a true story,
but it's that Dunning-Kruger effect in real life. Let us call someone Peter.
But again, this is based on a real story, but I've changed a lot of details.
Here's a guy that had discovered a passion for gardening and he started by planting
some tomatoes. tomatoes.
And to his wonderful delight, and I got to see pictures of him,
the few batches of tomatoes turned out amazing.
And I still don't really know why those were amazing.
But that gave him this just surge of confidence and he was starting to get validation
because he started to think of himself as somewhat of a gardening expert.
And he shared his success on social media, posted pictures of his tomatoes,
and then was answering questions about his tomato growing and his enthusiasm
because he was an enthusiastic person,
it was so infectious that then someone had asked him to teach a class on gardening
at a, let's just call it a local senior living center.
This guy's riding high on his expertise and so he agreed without hesitation
and he assumed that, hey, if I can figure out tomatoes, I do a little bit of
Googling, then I could probably cover anything.
So then he decided to expand the class to growing all kinds of various vegetables.
And even thought, I probably could figure out the best ways to grow different
flowers as well, even though he had no personal experience with them.
So you can kind of see where this is going.
So on the day of the class, he started very confidently, but soon realized his
audience was far more experienced than he anticipated.
Because most of the seniors that came to that class have been gardening for
decades, longer than Peter had been alive.
So they started asking everything from detailed questions about soil pH and
pest control and specific plant care.
And these are topics that he had no idea, he had not grasped,
experienced, or even knew what to Google.
So apparently he started feeling cornered by the questions and I'm sure his confidence faltered.
But here's where that instead of admitting his limitations or I mean,
acknowledging, man, I guess I really don't know what I don't know,
or deferring to the senior's experience and turning that thing into a,
hey man, let's have a little group discussion. You guys know so much more than me.
And all of a sudden, they're feeling validated. But no, his emotional immaturity kicks in.
He became very defensive and got really angry and then blamed the audience for
being rude and unappreciative of his knowledge.
After all, he had blown up pictures of these tomatoes.
Couldn't they see that he knew exactly what he was talking about?
So then it escalated and then And he ended up storming out, I think claiming
a little bit of a narcissistic medical exit from the things that I heard,
but he definitely felt misunderstood and underappreciated.
Because I think that example so well illustrates the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Because his initial, I don't know if we even call it success with tomatoes,
then leads him to overestimate his gardening knowledge, and he wasn't aware
of the vastness of what he didn't know.
So when he was faced with a more knowledgeable group, his lack of expertise
was exposed, and his emotional immaturity prevented him from handling the situation,
well, I will say gracefully.
Because I think that the reason I appreciate the Dunning-Kruger effect in those type of stories is...
It really can be hard if we didn't grow up seeing or modeled taking ownership
or acknowledging or accountability of things.
And so then if we feel for some reason, it can be really difficult to say,
I don't know, because we want that validation so bad.
And we've been put in this position of authority, which we just think,
okay, this feels so good.
But when in reality, it's so much more emotionally mature and healthy to then
say, oh man, my tomatoes, check this out. This is what happened.
But yeah, I don't know much about these other things, but let's have a conversation
or discussion or here's what I've learned and maybe you can teach me.
I think it's just overall reminder, confidence needs to be balanced with humility
and an awareness of our own limitations and that's okay because we don't have to be super special.
You kind of are, since you are special just the way you are.
But recognizing that expertise in any field takes time and experience and that's
why I love talking about healthy ego.
When I was in the computer industry for over a decade, that was fitting more
into that pathological, defensive, emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits
and tendencies because I had to puff up my ego because I needed people to think
I was special because I felt so insecure.
About the things that I had no clue about.
But now in the world of mental health and as a therapist and I eat this stuff
up, I love it so much, then I now know what I know based off a real life experience,
which makes it so much easier to say I don't know about the things I don't know.
If you can recognize that expertise in any
field does take more time than we probably are aware and that's okay and especially
when people don't really even know what they value or what they care about because
that's one of the first steps is figuring out what it feels like to be you and
what you really do care about and then you can start heading toward in that direction,
finding your lane, and even then it still may change course.
Any field takes time and experience and that helps us remain open to learning
and growing, especially when faced with challenging situations or more knowledgeable
individuals, which is absolutely fine.
Let me give you three key takeaways and we'll even throw action steps based
on the discussion here today.
The hope would be to avoid falling prey to conspiracy theories and encourage
more reflective thinking. At least that's what I would love to see people do more of.
So embrace this concept of cognitive reflection. It is so crucial in questioning
your initial beliefs and your assumptions, and it helps you pause and consider
the validity of information, especially in the face of, I don't know,
unfounded theories. But they can sound really appealing.
As an action step, practice questioning your first instincts.
And questioning doesn't mean you are wrong, but build in that pause.
So when you're confronted with new information, especially if it's sensational
or somewhat controversial, just take a moment to reflect and ask yourself,
is this the only explanation?
Or what evidence supports or contradicts this? Or am I jumping toward one direction
or the other to feel more validated or a sense of self or community?
Or is this something that I really feel passionate about? Or if I start to do
a little bit more research, can I find more?
Can I find things on both sides of the equation? Whatever that looks like.
And then next would be start cultivating that differentiation of self.
Because that's about understanding your beliefs, your values,
and they're separate from external influences.
And that is so important in maintaining a clear sense of identity,
especially when you're faced with persuasive or charismatic sources of misinformation.
Which again, great name for an alternative band.
And regularly engage in introspection, assess your beliefs, consider how they
align with your core values, find out what your core values are,
and then assess the evidence that's available.
And it also helps to expose yourself to a lot of different perspectives and opinions.
That is the opposite of an echo chamber of confirmation bias.
And it can broaden your understanding and challenge your preconceptions and
know that discomfort often is a little wake up to say, oh I feel uncomfortable about this, why?
Because it goes against what I've been told and so if I'm operating from this
place of immaturity then if it's an opinion that's different than mine,
my immediate reaction from an immature standpoint is to say,
well then that person thinks that they're better than me or they think they're right and I'm wrong.
But let me take a look at what my opinion is and what this other opinion is
and see if there's any crossover.
And then that last takeaway I would say is acknowledge the limits of your knowledge,
thinking about that Dunning-Kruger effect.
Understand that we do not know what we do not know and knowing that can help
protect us from being overconfident in our understanding of complex issues and
leaving us hanging out to dry.
Recognizing our knowledge gaps is the first step in learning and understanding
so you can start to cultivate more humility regarding your knowledge and your
expertise, but lean into the things that you really care about and you can seek
out reliable sources and experts when exploring new topics,
and be open to learning and changing your views in light of new credible information.
So thank you for joining me today. Let me know how the Thanksgiving Peace Frisbee
Conspiracy Theory goes.
And as it is Thanksgiving in my land, I am truly thankful for you and your support
and know that as you share these episodes with others and as you rate them and
as you like them and as you post reviews,
they find their way to more people in need of help who need to know that they're
not crazy, they're human, and they deserve to be seen and understood.
So, we'll see you next week.
Music.