Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 96 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and
host of the Virtual Couch podcast and Waking Up to Narcissism,
the premium edition question and answer and a couple others,
Murder on the Couch, Mind Mirror Me, Love ADHD.
So I would love for you to check out any or all of those podcasts and you can
find out more information in the show notes. Also, if you can sign up for my
newsletter, go to tonyoverbay .com and sign up for the newsletter.
My updated Magnetic Marriage course is coming the first week of December,
and I think that it does play a role with my Waking Up the Narcissism audience,
even if simply for the fact that you may want to try to really understand what
a healthy relationship looks like,
and what having a communication tool can do for you in the relationship,
meaning and I'm not saying that if you're in a relationship
with someone who is truly narcissistic extremely emotionally
mature that then this is going to all of a sudden solve
all your problems but I do feel like it can be helpful to
at least have a framework to work from and then see oftentimes the emotionally
immature narcissistic person still is not going to play in that sandbox that
they are going to then take even a evidence -based framework or a that works
in successful couples therapy and then weaponize that or use that against somebody.
But I just think so many people that are listening don't really know what they
don't know about what a healthy relationship would look like and so that that
is what I am excited about with the Magnetic Marriage course.
If you want to find out more about that, go sign up for the newsletter.
So let's get to today's topic. This is something that I think I'd shared.
I think I'd shared in a previous episode that at one point I was just for fun
looking at some stats and seeing which were the most popular episodes of waking up the narcissism.
I assumed it would be the death by a thousand cuts, maybe the intermittent reinforcement,
the trauma bond, but it was actually one about the amygdala hijack.
And that episode aired quite a while ago and I realized as I was looking over
some emails that come in that a lot of questions are around the what is wrong
with me and I react and maybe that makes me the narcissist.
And I all of a sudden I feel like I can't control myself, which again,
I think has the pathologically kind person going back to feeling like,
okay, no, I am the problem.
When we could just put it really quickly in a bucket of reactive abuse,
that if somebody is all of a sudden,
screaming and yelling at their partner and that isn't something that they go
around doing on a daily basis, I would guess that that's more of a reactive
situation because their buttons had been pushed Are they've been holding things in for so long?
And I think it's also crucial to understand how our emotional responses work,
especially in the context of relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals.
So I think in general, have you ever found yourself reacting in a way that feels
out of proportion to the situation?
And maybe a small comment from your partner sparks this intense burst of anger or fear in you.
Or perhaps you've noticed that in certain situations, your ability to think clearly just vanishes.
And I think so often people feel like I was in control or I noticed that I was
starting to get a little bit angry, a little frustrated, but then that ability
to think clearly just goes.
And then you're left wondering, okay, why did I react that way?
Because I really feel like those are signs of an amygdala hijack. The amygdala,
if per the gwiz file, it's a tiny almond -shaped structure and it's really deep
in our brain, but it plays such a key role in the processing of our emotions
because it's like this, it's like this protector, this security guard,
always on the lookout for any threat.
But sometimes you could view that it gets a little bit overzealous,
especially when we're dealing with ongoing stress or trauma,
like in relationships with narcissistic or emotionally immature partners.
So when the amygdala perceives a threat, it will bypass our rational brain.
We're going to talk about some of the science, the nerdy science about that
today because I do think it's really interesting.
And I think it was Schoolhouse Rocky that told us that knowledge is power.
If you're a kid that is of the, I don't know, 80s, 90s, maybe the 2000s.
But I think that just understanding what is happening can help you give yourself
a little bit of grace, which ironically is one of the things that will help
you get out of this what's wrong with me amygdala hijacked situation in the first place.
So essentially the rational brain is completely bypassed and then signals are
sent straight to the emotional brain.
And then later that thinking part of your brain processes the information and
then that's when you might realize maybe maybe my reaction was a lot for that situation.
In the case of the interactions with the emotionally immature narcissist,
sometimes your body is trying to convince you, no, it's not a lot, it's not too much.
This is what's gonna happen if you continue to put yourself in these situations.
And not even put yourself, I don't want that to sound like there's any blame
put on here, because a lot of times people just find themselves in those situations.
But what happens in the brain? The amygdala hijack occurs when any strong emotion,
whether it's anxiety or fear or anger, or even it can be extreme excitement,
then impairs the prefrontal cortex, that part of the brain and the frontal lobe
that regulates rational thought.
And this is where the research from 2016 suggests that there is an inverse relationship
between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex.
For example, when the amygdala is activated, then the prefrontal cortex is less activated.
And when emotions are running high, then think of it like the blood and oxygen
flow to the amygdala rather than to the prefrontal cortex, which I think is
this fascinating way that the brain works.
And then if it's if the blood flow in oxygen are going to the amygdala,
that's because we need to be on high alert.
And then that reduces our ability to think and solve problems.
So, while this whole process is helpful in an actual life and death situation,
the amygdala hijack can occur.
And I cannot find the article, but there was an article where I have this in
my notes that gave the example of it can also happen when your kid hits a baseball through a car window.
And then having all of the blood run from the rational part of your brain won't
help the situation and then can cause you to act in ways that you later regret.
So here's that example of what happens in your brain when the ball goes through a car window.
So there's a sensory stimulus. It can be what you hear, what you see,
even what you smell if it's all of a sudden you smell fire.
But in this case, it's the sound of a ball crashing through the window.
And then that travels through your auditory nerve and then converts from a sound
wave to an electrical impulse in the brain.
And then this signal travels to the thalamus, the gray matter that helps relay
sensory signals, and then to
the amygdala before it reaches the brain's cortex, or the thinking brain.
Like what a miracle the way that that occurs.
Because what you're taking in, whether it's through what you hear,
what you see, what you smell, what you touch, all of those things,
that you're very quickly saying, is this safe?
So this survival mechanism then allows us to react to danger before the rational
brain has time to process it.
So even before you fully processed how the ball got through the window,
you can feel your body gearing up for a dangerous situation.
So then whether it's this ball going through the car window,
then other examples of the amygdala hijack.
A car swerves in your lane and almost causes an accident. You go into road rage
and throw your smoothie in their window. Or you get a phone call that your loved
one is in an emergency room, but you're so distressed that you don't even hear the details.
They give an example that I think would be wonderful. You win the lottery,
and your excitement makes you scream and cause a scene in the convenience store.
You know, I remember this one. This was so long ago, 1993.
And I had already moved out to California, and I had graduated college, and I had one class to go.
And this was so long ago that the class could be taken.
There wasn't a thing, such a thing, I think, as online. I guess there was,
because I was working for a computer software company. but I had a workbook
and I was supposed to finish a class and then mail things in and I had not completed that at that time.
And I remember getting a phone call from my college and they said,
hey, we reviewed your transcripts and you actually, I had transferred from another
college a couple of years earlier and they said, you have all the credits you need and then some.
So congratulations, you've graduated with your bachelor's degree.
And I remember being just giddy and excited. I really was, I couldn't believe it.
All the hard work, it was done and I didn't have to complete this class using
this book and mailing things in and I was just, thank you so much.
I'm so excited. Thank you.
Okay, take care. Goodbye. And I remember just being giddy and calling my wife
and then going home and then I remember thinking, what if that wasn't even a scam, so to speak?
I don't remember, I didn't write down who called me, I didn't write down anything
because I was so just excited and there was so much excitement flooding through
my whole body and my brain that then I was not thinking rationally.
And then I remember spending the next probably four or five weeks just terrified
that wasn't really a thing until I then did get my diploma in the mail.
And so let's talk about what happens then when somebody is in an interaction
with somebody who is emotionally immature or narcissistic. And I'm gonna go
over quickly the five rules of interacting with a narcissist.
Again, I've got my raise your emotional baseline.
Self -care is not selfish, we gotta get you in a good place in order to interact
with the emotionally immature or narcissistic person.
And you've already then, that number two, you got your PhD in gaslighting.
You're already ready, you know that you're not crazy and that there are things
that it's okay for you to have your own thoughts and feelings and opinions and
it's even okay for you to remember things the way that you remember them.
Then you're showing up and you are getting out of unproductive conversations
and then you're setting boundaries, but knowing that that emotionally immature
narcissistic person, that to them, they view that boundary as a challenge.
We're going to focus on that one here in just a second.
And then number five, it's that you realize that you aren't going to ever give
them the aha moment or the epiphany, that that needs to come from them.
That needs to be a them thing, that's not a you thing. So if we go back to that number four,
so we've after we've got our PhD in gas lighting number two and number three
we We realized okay the more and this is where this really comes into play number
three I need to get myself out of unproductive conversations because that is
going to lead to the amygdala hijack And how do I get myself out of unproductive conversations?
Then that number four I set I set boundaries hopefully set healthy boundaries
So then I can realize that if I am starting to notice that I my heart rate is
elevating I'm starting to shake, my hands are shaking a little bit,
and I'm starting to almost experience a little bit of brain fog.
Some people say that they start to feel like they're gonna disassociate,
that they do realize there are some signals that are coming through,
and at that point, then I need to then remove myself from the situation.
And when I talk about setting a boundary, and then the narcissist or the emotionally
immature will see that boundary as a challenge, this is where that comes into play.
So if I say, hey, if you're going to tell me that I'm crazy,
or try to tell me what my thoughts or my opinions are or how I feel,
then I am gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave.
I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna go for a walk and we can come back and talk
about this later when you maybe are willing to hear me and maybe be a little
more curious or if you're interested in my opinion on how I feel.
But at that point, then here is where the emotionally mature narcissist is not
going to say, man, that's a great point and I appreciate you.
That's the, that's the emotionally mature response.
No, this is where you're going to hear, oh, okay, walk away.
I guess we're never gonna solve anything.
And what's so ironic, this is where that concept of even parenting can come
into play, where you may even hear some of the things that you have said,
because to the narcissist or the emotionally immature,
then they often know, oh, those are things that are important to you,
so then that must mean that if I say these things, and there's a little bit of...
Controversy is a dramatic word, but there's debate on whether or not that's
in the conscious or the subconscious, where that comes from in the emotionally
immature, narcissistic person.
But they will say the things that then, because that is a button,
if all of a sudden they say the exact thing that you typically say,
and then, because instead of me going, oh, okay, interesting,
that's a new button, they're saying the thing that really matters a lot to me,
versus the, wait a minute, you don't think that I'm being curious,
I'm the one that's always curious, now you, and then it's, oh,
okay, they just, they pushed the right button, and they got me.
So that's where this can really become a opportunity to differentiate,
to recognize that I am having some feelings that are coming up right now,
and in a positive way, that's a me issue, so I need to take care of myself,
and I need to get myself out of this situation.
And so what happens is our emotions take over the driver's seat and then our
logic is left in the backseat wondering what just happened.
But it's a survival mechanism. But in our modern world, it can lead to actions
and reactions that we later regret.
And I am not saying this as a, and then we need to feel bad about it.
I really feel like, especially in the world of emotional immaturity and narcissism,
it's more of a, how dare that partner that you are interacting with continue to push buttons.
They're trying to find the button that will get you to the amygdala hijack so
that then they can say, see, look at that, you just lost your stuff again.
So, I think you need to do work. I mean, don't blame this on me,
you're the one that just lost your stuff.
But then, so why does it happen more frequently or intensely in relationships
with narcissists or emotionally immature people?
To answer that, I think we need to do a little bit more of a deep dive into
the world of emotional trauma and its impact on the brain.
We're gonna explore how long -term exposure, and I think that's one of the keys
to these kind of environments, starts to prime your amygdala to be more reactive.
Because remembering that your brain is trying to become more efficient at everything,
even if that is predicting danger. and so it makes you more susceptible to these amygdala hijacks.
So if you've ever felt like your emotions are controlling you rather than the
other way around or if you're struggling to stay present and rational in the
face of emotional triggers then I think today's episode is gonna have a lot of value for you.
We'll unpack a little bit of the science behind the amygdala hijack and I really
want to help you understand its connection to our relationships and and most
importantly we'll talk about some strategies to hopefully regain control and
one of the key things is to learn how to respond.
Rather than react and then really starting to trust our gut and listen to our
body because there are a lot of people in these situations that think,
okay, if I can really get myself under control that then I can show up in these
emotionally immature narcissistic relationships and again,
I think unfortunately that's where somebody can think,
maybe then I can forget what Tony says about you'll never give that other person
the aha moment or the epiphany Because if I can stay present and calm, then maybe I can,
but in reality, what I see happen more often than not is that then the more
that you learn to stay present and calm, that then becomes almost a challenge
to the emotionally immature or narcissistic person.
And so, they start saying more and more things, pushing bigger and bigger buttons.
This goes back to that phenomenon where when you feel like you're having a moment
with an emotionally immature person and you share something very vulnerable.
That how often when then a fight breaks out and the buttons are being pushed
that if you don't react, then that very thing that you expressed from a place
of vulnerability can then be used against you.
So let's talk about the origin story of even the concept or the term the amygdala hijack.
That term was actually coined by a psychologist named Daniel Goleman in his
1995 book Emotional Intelligence.
And he was specifically referring to situations where the amygdala,
again that part of the brain that's responsible for emotional response takes
over your rational thinking.
So in simple terms, when your emotions go into overdrive and you react impulsively,
without necessarily thinking things through.
And if I can just wrap today's entire episode up with a big old warm blanket
of grace and bless your heart and you're trying your best.
Because I think in the first episode that I did about the amygdala hijack,
when the basis of the episode was around somebody that I was working with that
said they were frustrated with me because we were processing things.
And they said, I need to know what to do when I am in that amygdala hijacked
state. And then I said, thinking I was hilarious, didn't go over so well at
the time, but then we later had a good laugh.
But I said at that point, that's where
you need to go back and invest in technology to build a time machine.
And then go back a couple of years from then and begin a solid meditation practice.
And start going to therapy and start really focusing on how to lower your resting
heart rate through meditation, through exercise, through yoga,
through therapy. because that amygdala hijack is something that's happened and built up over time.
And so in that moment, all you can do is get through it, give yourself grace,
and then I like to say review or break down the game film of what were the things
that led up to that amygdala hijack.
Because a lot of times it's similar things that I see in the world of addiction.
There's a acronym HALT. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
And some of those concepts come to play as well. That
when that amygdala is in overdrive that
it can it's driven by cortisol I guess I'm jumping ahead of
myself here but that can be also a
symptom of a lack of sleep and when
you just start to be physically drained and you aren't getting that good deep
REM sleep that you need to reset all the brain chemicals then you start the
day and your your amygdala is a little bit more fired up than it was the day
before and the day before that and the day before that and then if you You aren't.
Taking time for self -care. This is why one of the first things I like to recommend
is raising your emotional baseline Self -care is not selfish self -care can
be anything from just taking a moment to breathe.
It can be dreaming It can be reading it can be going on a walk petting a dog
It's really anything and you can start with even the smallest bit of self -care
is a place to start but it really is anything that you can do for yourself will start to lower that that,
baseline cortisol level.
But the most, I don't want to say the most important things,
but really if you can take that time to go find somebody you can talk to and
really spend time with yoga, with meditation, deep breathing,
that goal is to slowly but surely lower your fight -or -flight response so that
you don't immediately go all the way to this this reactive mode.
So just thinking in in terms of the amygdala then is your brain's alarm system.
So when it senses danger, then your amygdala is what can trigger that fight,
flight, or freeze response.
And again, it's wonderful when you are in actual physical danger,
but not so much in everyday social interactions.
And it happens when this part of the brain reacts to a perceived emotional threat
as if it were a life or death situation.
And why it's, I mean, it can be so common in relationships with emotionally
immature and narcissistic people.
And I think the reason is because the partners, the emotionally immature or
narcissistic partners are so unpredictable and manipulative and emotionally volatile and,
Their actions then easily trigger the amygdala's alarm system
and that then leads to this heightened emotional response If you
then are finding yourself continually on edge walking on eggshells is what we
often refer to because you're not quite sure what version of somebody you're
gonna get and then if you're also playing that role of peacekeeper in the family
and you're trying to buffer between the emotionally immature and the kids,
then that that takes a lot of being hyper aware, hyper alert.
And that does cause that your amygdala to be on on overdrive just continually
trying to assess and read the room and the situation and read moods and that's that's just a lot.
So if that's something that you've been doing for a long time and maybe even
since in your childhood if we're being honest if that's been your role in the
family and then that is what leads to that pathological kindness because,
hey, my role here is I really don't want anybody to get upset or angry because
that can have big repercussions on the entire family system,
then this is that concept where over time those neurons that fire together wire
together and then your base of
cortisol is always pretty high and you're right there on the edge of just.
Going into that amygdala hijack and losing your stuff.
I think it's also key that emotionally immature narcissistic partners,
I think it's safe to say they lack emotional intelligence, which then can make
that situation worse because they may not recognize or validate the emotional
experiences of their partners,
which then continually puts the partner on edge because they already know that,
okay, it's probably not worth it for me to say this thing.
So I've sat on the things I want to say for so long, but then eventually,
because whether it's that hungry, angry, lonely, tired, sleep deprived,
or you see the emotionally immature person really say something cruel or mean
to a kid, one of your kids or yourself,
and then that's when at some point, there it goes, there's the amygdala hijack,
and now you find yourself almost with this out -of -body experience and you
are yelling at this person.
Some of the coping strategies is part of what you're doing right now, self -awareness.
You can recognize the signs that an amygdala hijack is about to happen and that's
one of the most powerful things you can do is to notice that,
okay, I'm starting to get a little bit shaky, I'm starting to get frustrated
or flustered and at that point, it is important to pause.
Again, the taking deep breaths in through the nose, out through the mouth is
a really powerful thing, but one of the best things that you can do is to remove
yourself from that situation.
Now the unfortunate part is that doesn't mean that the immature person is going
to understand that maybe they've gone too far.
You may actually then hear more buttons being pushed as you walk out of the room.
That, okay fine, walk, leave, you don't want to deal with it,
I'm the only person here that cares.
And those are all just new buttons or old buttons that are being pressed and
I think that's really important to understand that.
And then I think in my quest to show that artificial intelligence can continue to be friend.
I did turn to my good friend, ChatGPT, and I had ChatGPT summarize and then
re -write an article that I think is really significant about what happens in
this amygdala hijack state.
But just Just for fun, let me tell you what the abstract was of the paper.
This research study investigated the relationship between microstructural variability
in the amygdala -prefrontal pathways and trait anxiety, with a specific focus
on whether this relationship may be moderated by sex, meaning male -female.
Previous neuroimaging studies have suggested that individuals with high levels
of trait anxiety may have reduced communication efficiency between the amygdala
and the ventral prefrontal cortex.
So, basically we're looking at that link between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex.
The amygdala, the fight -or -flight response, and the prefrontal cortex,
the place where you try to make sense of things.
And so, I want to read, I love it. ChatGVT said, whoa, that's a lot of science,
but don't worry, I'll break it down for you.
So, the study, in simple terms, how the researchers wanted to know how the brain's
structure is linked to anxiety.
So, they focused on two parts of the brain. The amygdala, which is like your
emotional control center and then the prefrontal cortex, let's call it the PFC,
which helps you make decisions and think rationally.
So again, the amygdala, the emotional control center, and then the PFC helps
you make rational decisions.
So they used, again I'm gonna read this, I said if you could put it in high
school lingo, I think is the way I put it for chat GPT.
So then chat GPT says they use some high -tech brain scans on 245 people to
look at the pathways or connections between these two brain parts,
and they found that people with stronger connections had lower levels of anxiety.
And then interestingly, this link was even stronger in females.
So, that's pretty significant. So, the people that had a stronger connection
between their amygdala, the emotional control center, and the prefrontal cortex,
which helps you make decisions and think rationally, then they had lower levels of anxiety.
So, if you are one who suffers with anxiety, struggles with anxiety,
this is some data that maybe supports that being able to tap into that being
more present or logical or being able to see things as they are,
then you have a stronger link to that amygdala,
so maybe that's the way to tell the amygdala, I think we're okay.
And then it was even stronger in females, meaning that females had an even stronger
ability in these situations to have a deeper, stronger connection between their
prefrontal cortex and their amygdala.
So then I wonder, that means that I do not have data to back this up,
that then it has the potential to be a much stronger connection between the
prefrontal cortex and the amygdala that then when that connection is broken or is not there,
I wonder if that causes an even greater reaction in the amygdala because that
connection is then broken.
So why it matters? The study is super important because it helps us understand
how our brain structure can affect our emotions.
It could also help scientists come up with better treatments for anxiety disorders in the future.
According to ChatGPT, actually I want to read this next part,
they used a bunch of fancy statistical methods and even looked how the brain
changes from childhood to adulthood, and they also mention that their study
doesn't prove that the brain structure causes anxiety, but it just shows that there's a connection.
So, in a nutshell, if you're feeling anxious, it might have something to do
with how your amygdala and your prefrontal cortex are connected.
And then, again, thank you, ChatGPT, says, and if you're a girl,
that connection might be even more important for you. Hope that that clears things up.
Let's talk about that role of cortisol, because we talk about cortisol so much.
Let's just give an example of what's happening in the brain.
So, imagine you're walking down a hall and you see a huge spider on the wall,
which is just, Man, I have a problem with spiders. I really do.
So then your brain's alarm system, the amygdala, goes off like a fire alarm.
And so your brain is yelling, danger, danger. I have to be honest,
every morning that I come into my office and I get in pretty early because that's
when I like to create content before clients come in,
but I open the door and I turn the light on and I've been doing this a long
time and every now and again I'll see something, a bug, a spider,
something on the ground.
It's only been a few times, but man, I now have this relational frame built
think it's fascinating the way
the brain works that even though it's only been a few times, I'm ready.
I turn that light on and it's a quick scan and I'm ready.
And then if I, it's almost like my heart rate is elevated in anticipation for
going into fight or flight against some bug, which when you put it that way,
maybe I'm a little bit overthinking that one.
But again, that amygdala goes off like a fire alarm and it's your brain's way of yelling danger.
So enter cortisol, the stress hormone.
So then at that point your brain then sends a signal to release cortisol,
often called the stress hormone.
So then you can think of cortisol almost like the firefighter that then shows
up when the alarm goes off.
So then it prepares your body to either fight the spider, maybe with a shoe,
or run away as fast as you can, which would be the flight.
And then your heart rate goes up because then what cortisol does is it cortisol
helps speed up your heart rate. Why?
Because your body needs to pump more blood into your muscles so then you can either fight or flee.
So it's in essence revving up a car engine before a race.
So, back to your amygdala. Now, your amygdala is still in charge of the whole operation.
We talked about the control center that is keeping an eye on everything.
It's checking if the danger is still there and then it's deciding if it needs
to keep the cortisol and heart rate high or if it can relax if the bug's already dead or it wasn't a bug.
Literally last night I opened a box from Amazon and then I glanced over to my
right again and see on the ground something.
And I felt that surge of cortisol flow through my bloodstream and I look and
it was just a piece of tape off the box. It was rolled up and it looked kind of weird.
So, that amygdala again, it's in charge of that whole operation.
Here's the kicker. The amygdala and cortisol are in a feedback loop.
So, if the amygdala senses more danger, it's going to keep the cortisol levels
high, which then keeps your heart rate up.
But then once the danger's gone, again, maybe you squash the spider or you ran
away, hypothetically, cortisol levels then drop and then your heart rate slows
down and your amygdala can finally take a break.
So, if you're in danger, your amygdala then sets off the alarm,
and again, spider or human being, cortisol comes to the rescue,
your heart rate speeds up, and you get ready for action.
And when you put it that way, thank you body, it's a well -oiled machine and
it is designed to keep you safe.
But then the challenge is when you are in a relationship with somebody that
your body is trying to keep you safe from.
And I think that alone, we need to sit with that for a minute.
Because if you don't feel safe in your relationship, then that's something that
I think really needs to be addressed.
And when we look at the way your body is trying to protect you then,
I want to spend a second or two on your visceral or gut reaction.
So let me quote the book Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy for Dummies.
I have to tell you, there was a big Dummies Books for Dummies movement a while ago.
I don't know if it's still as big of a thing, but the Emotionally Focused Couples
Therapy for Dummies book is a really good book.
I don't really even know who the authors are, but in chapter four,
and I've referred to this on many a podcast, chapter four, identifying the three
levels of emotional experience, quoting the book, when people talk about emotion,
they usually oversimplify.
They jam all emotion into one tight box and they keep the lid on.
It's common to hear emotions get in the way of making rational decisions or
you're reacting to emotionally or even worse take your emotions out of it.
For many years psychology has emphasized thinking over feeling.
It's still largely the case today but the field of effective neuroscience is
pointing to a different reality, one in which emotional processing in your brain
is central and rapid and actually sets the stage for the slower process of thinking. I love that.
So your emotions are actually, they're leading the charge.
And then in comes your almost like the dun -dun -dun process of thinking.
So they say that you actually feel before you think.
Modern neuroscience has charted the brain's response to situations and found
that emotions fire two and a half times more rapidly in the brain than thoughts do.
We aren't saying that emotions are more important than thoughts.
In fact, feeling and thinking should team up and work together to make you that
much more aware and prepared to make the best decisions and to act in the most helpful of ways.
But most people overthink and underfeel.
So then emotions occur with three layers, primary, secondary, and instrumental.
And then I think I've done an episode or two here on the virtual couch on the
discovering the importance of your primary emotions and your secondary emotions.
Primary are these initial gut -felt emotional signals and they are stemming
from your immediate surroundings.
So you might feel primary emotions like a tingling or sinking experience in the pit of your stomach.
Here comes that visceral or gut reaction or a tightening in the shoulders or
heaviness or constriction in your chest.
And even though you might not be aware of it, you feel primary emotions somewhere in the body.
And primary emotions are often vulnerable, or some call them soft emotions,
and they reveal your underbelly, so to speak.
And here's a list of common primary emotions. Sadness, fear,
hurt, anger, shame, joy, excitement, surprise.
You can see that there are both negative and positive primary emotions,
and both are considered primary emotions because they're the first emotions
you feel in response to a situation.
Negative emotion will make you withdraw, maybe shrink, play small,
such as if you're hurt or sad or afraid.
Positive primary emotions, they allow you to lean in, expand outward when you
experience joy and surprise.
When a couple's relationship is in distress, the negative primary emotion is usually unspoken.
It may even go largely unnoticed. So it's important that when you start to notice
your primary emotion, for example, when you suddenly realize that you forgot
to do something that's very important, you may get kind of a sick feeling in
your stomach and that sick feeling is your body's experience of a primary emotion.
And so then while we're right here, when we talk about secondary emotion,
what you feel after your gut reacts.
When most people talk about emotion, they're usually, it's actually talking
about the secondary emotions, which follow the primary emotions.
Because they're the ones that you're most aware of. They're the second layer
of your emotional experience.
So primary emotions, they fire immediately. And that is that amygdala.
And they can give you guidance, because they're there to protect you.
And secondary emotions are in essence a reaction to your primary emotions.
And so, typical secondary emotions include anger, frustration,
guilt, defensiveness, and that's where then I go with humor.
Often my secondary emotion is humor. When I feel uncomfortable,
when I feel stressed, then I make a joke about things.
And I even, again, I love this, I have my own theories where then because of
implicit memory or what it feels like to be me,
which is based off of the slow residue of lived experience, sometimes I almost
feel like my emotions have swapped and my primary emotion has now become humor.
That's my immediate reaction.
And then if I have time to sit in, I sometimes feel like my secondary emotion
then becomes almost the visceral or gut reaction, but I digress.
So I think that those emotions are so important to recognize.
And again, primarily that your emotions travel faster than your logic.
Because now let's get back to the viscera because it sounds like a cool sci
-fi term, but it is just a very fancy word for your internal organs, those in your gut area.
So, when you have that gut feeling, that is your viscera talking.
So, if you've heard about your visceral reaction, it's really your gut reaction. Trust your gut.
Trust your gut sounds better than trust your viscera.
When you have a visceral reaction, it is like your body is sounding an alarm
before your brain has time to figure out what's going on.
So, your emotions, again, we've identified they're already in the driver's seat
and then logic is just starting to put a seatbelt on and saying, where are we going?
Cortisol, let's get back to that. Cortisol, it's this body's alarm system and
it's a hormone that gets released when you're stressed or in danger and that
makes your heart rate go up and puts your amygdala, the emotional center of
your brain, on high alert.
But too much cortisol then, hopefully you can see now, leads to that amygdala
hijack where then emotions completely take over and logic is left in the dust.
How do you lower cortisol other than the time machine?
I think what's really significant, I'll just read this, there are several ways
like exercise, good sleep, and mindfulness techniques.
And then some sources will suggest things like supplements, dietary changes,
your mileage may vary, so that's something to consult your doctor,
physician, that sort of thing.
But the reason I put it that dramatically and then it turns out to not be that
dramatic is that things like exercise, good sleep, and mindfulness techniques,
even things like supplements or dietary changes are all things that happen outside
of the relationship or the amygdala hijack.
So, if there's something that I really want you to give yourself grace for is
that if you are in a situation where you are the person that is now yelling
or screaming or you feel like you've lost your mind when that came out of nowhere, give yourself grace.
And then when you can calm down, then break down the game film.
Listen to this podcast. Start to write down some of the things that led up to the amygdala hijack.
When I talk about breakdown the game film, one of the things I think is really
fascinating just as a therapist where I had it probably happened two or three
times in yesterday's sessions where people come in and they say I'm not sure
why I feel the way I do it doesn't make any sense and then I feel like okay
that old chestnut the old I have no idea what's going on here and then you say
hey take me back through your last 24, 48,
72 hours and then when the person does they start to realize,
oh, there is a lot going on.
Or they're under more stress than they thought they were, or they've slept less,
or they may have some big decisions to make, or somebody in the family's sick, or, or, or.
And those are the things that then lead to, oh, okay, I guess I can understand
why I'm feeling the way I do.
Now, I talked so much about The Body Keeps the Score, the wonderful book by
Bessel van der Kolk, and I do want to spend a second there because I really
feel like it's this game changer when it comes to understanding trauma and then
the long -term effects on the brain, especially the amygdala.
Because in the book, van der Kolk talks about how trauma then can rewire the
brain, making the amygdala more sensitive to stress and danger.
And again, rewire the brain. So then, this is where that concept of the neurons
that fire together, wire together come into play.
So, if you turn up the volume on the alarm system so that even small things
can set it off and you continue to keep that volume up over time,
that heightened sensitivity where your emotional response goes into overdrive,
even at times when there isn't a real threat or danger.
Then that means that your amygdala is basically on high alert at all times.
I was thinking about this, it's like having a guard dog that just always growls
even when nobody's at the door or you shake them a little bit,
they're sleeping and then they immediately growl.
It's this, they're constantly on guard and that breaks my heart for the little
guy, a little dog that does that.
But if it's you, that can lead to chronic stress, anxiety and even physical
health issues because your body is constantly in fight, flight or freeze mode.
And then I think what is so important to recognize is we go back to this concept
that the brain is a don't get killed device.
And so your brain is going to do everything it can
to protect you and if it if you are continually showing
up in an unhealthy relationship and your body
goes into fight -or -flight mode and you are living this
amygdala hijack this is where we start to see the body keeps the score in terms
of a lot of different physical ailments because I feel like what your body's
saying is okay if you won't do something about this yourself then let's start
throwing some autoimmune issues some irritable bowel syndrome some fibromyalgia
some migraine headaches.
There's even a concept called conversion disorder where you see people,
I've had a couple of clients over the long haul,
that have things like stroke, seizure, things like that, that then the doctor
can't quite pin this is where this comes from and you just have to wonder is
that just prolonged stress and then because the body is in this constant state of fight -or -flight,
that then that's what happens then in meaning that the body does truly keep the score.
The vicious cycle, then the more your amygdala is activated,
the more it impacts other parts of your brain, like we go back to that prefrontal
cortex, which is responsible for rational thinking, decision making,
and creating that vicious cycle where your emotional responses get more and more out of control,
and it makes it harder to think clearly and make good decisions.
So, if, and Van der Kolk, he suggests that there are some different approaches
to reset the amygdala, such as EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing,
mindfulness, yoga, talk therapy,
but the idea is to teach your brain that it's okay to relax and turn down the
volume on that alarm system.
One of the benefits of talk therapy is that you are being able to express yourself
with somebody who is saying, but then what happened? What was that like? Tell me more.
I can't even imagine versus somebody saying, well, there's two sides to every
story or why didn't you just leave?
Or why didn't you? Because eventually then we're thinking, I can't talk to anybody about it.
But the more we keep things in our brain and we ruminate and we worry,
it causes even more stress and so it is so powerful to be able to express,
process, release those things in a safe way.
And then the whole concept of EMDR, I've been doing some more of the EMDR training myself,
that it really is working off of this, I believe, I don't want to say that I
know all of this stuff, but the concept of where when you're a kid and you're up and walking forward,
you're continually scanning left, right, left, right, left, right,
for safety, to make sure I'm not going to trip over toys or the family pet.
And your brain is an amazing thing.
And so over time, it says, okay, if there is this left, right movement,
happening, then we must be safe so we can lower the cortisol levels of the brain.
This is my understanding at least. Again, I'm so, especially on the Waking Up
the Narcissism podcast, the last thing I want to do is say, this is how it works
and I have confabulated this narrative and I'm unaware of it.
But then the brain in an amazing way moving forward.
I think it's Francine Shapiro is one of the pioneers of EMDR who discovered that,
all right, if maybe the hypothesis is if the eye movement
left right left right over time signifies safety that
then we can do back -and -forth movement moving
one's hand or tapping or I
have these things called theratappers that vibrate left right left right and
so the more that you receive this this what bilateral stimulation then it calms
the amygdala down as we're learning now cortisol takes a rest and you can process
things that maybe seemed scary and unprocessable,
And then, I don't know if that was a word, and then over time it speeds up in
essence this talk therapy process because you feel safe in processing these different things.
And what's really fascinating if you haven't looked into EMDR,
it's phenomenal because what you start seeing is your body really is reacting
and trying to give you signals of things that it felt a long time ago.
Where you might, I remember one of the people that I was working with,
one of the first things that they noticed was a feeling that they had,
I think it was in their stomach,
of when they were younger and their mom wouldn't pick them up and they would
be left and they would have to make excuses for their mom.
And they could tell and sense that the people that were waiting with them were annoyed or irritated.
And so then that brought up a visceral or gut reaction or feeling that then
we could then identify, oh, now they're feeling that because they feel the same
sense of abandonment or being alone or having to deal with things on their own in their relationship.
So it really shows the power that you can have when you can calm that amygdala
down and then tap into those emotions that really are there to try to help you.
And before we wrap things up today, and I think this is probably we're due for
another episode on complex post -traumatic stress disorder or CPTSD,
but there's an article that I'll linked to by someone named,
a person named Lachlan Brown,
and it's called Neuroscience, the Shocking Impact of Narcissistic Abuse Has on the Brain.
And so I'll just read a little bit here just as a sneak preview,
and we'll cover this again soon,
but I talked about this on one of the earlier episodes of Waking Up to Narcissism,
but he says narcissistic abuse is one of the worst types of psychological abuse
that one person can do to another, but unfortunately,
many people are stuck in these types of relationships.
He goes on to say that according to recent studies, neuroscientists have discovered
that long -term narcissistic abuse can actually lead to physical damage to the brain.
He says it's common knowledge these days that consistent emotional trauma over
a long period of time can cause victims to develop both PTSD and CPTSD.
And this is why anyone in a destructive relationship with a partner who cares
little for the emotional well -being of their family should leave immediately,
especially when there are children involved. which again, the whole premise
of this podcast is I know that it isn't that easy.
But he goes on to say that it can be really difficult because of the emotional basis.
And what many people fail to realize is that emotional and psychological distress
is only one side of the coin that victims of long -term narcissistic abuse experience.
That there's also a physical aspect of brain damage involved when suffering
consistent emotional abuse.
The victims experience a shrinking of the hippocampus and a swelling of the amygdala.
Both of these circumstances can lead to very devastating effects.
The Hippocampus is crucial in learning and developing memories,
while the amygdala is where negative emotions like shame, guilt,
fear, and envy come to life.
And then he goes on to talk more about the hippocampus, it's this Greek word
for seahorse, part of the brain that's hidden inside each temporal lobe,
looks basically like two seahorses.
But one of the most important functions of the hippocampus is responsible for
our short -term memory, which is the first step to learning.
So information is first stored in the short -term memory before it can be converted
to permanent memory. So without short -term memory, there can be no learning.
So then damage to the hippocampus is a lot more disturbing than scientists initially thought.
He quotes a study from Stanford University and the University of New Orleans
where they found that there was a strict correlation between high levels of
cortisol, the hormone caused by stress, and decreased volume to the hippocampus.
So the more stressed people were, then the smaller their hippocampus became.
And we've already talked a lot about the amygdala, but it's also known as the
reptilian brain because it controls our primal emotions and functions including
lust, fear, hate, as well as the heart rate and breathing.
So when triggered, the amygdala is where the fight -or -flight response is made,
so the narcissist will keep their victims in a state where their amygdala is constantly on alert.
And then eventually these victims fall into a permanent state of anxiety or
fear, what we've talked about today, with the amygdala reacting to the slightest
signs of abuse, where that reaction can be just so immediate.
Then long after the victim has escaped the destructive relationship,
they'll continue to live with these PTSD symptoms, sometimes increased phobias
or panic attacks, due to that enlarged amygdala that's become used to living in a state of fear.
So to protect themselves from their reality, the victims often use reality -bending
defense mechanisms that make it easier to cope, such as projection,
that victims often convince themselves that their narcissist abuser has these
positive traits and intentions,
such as compassion, understanding, when in reality that might not be the case.
And this is where we've talked about that intermittent reinforcement,
where the person that delivers the punishment can also then deliver the reward.
Or compartmentalization, where victims focus on the positive parts of the relationship,
separating them from the abusive parts and therefore mostly ignoring those negative parts.
Or denial, believing that their situation isn't really as bad as they feel and
that it's easier to live with it than rather to confront it.
And then a damaged hippocampus, which then, according to Lachlan Brown,
it can cripple everything that we know.
So that hippocampus is perhaps the most crucial part of the brain when it comes
to knowledge and function, and everything that we do, understand,
read, and learn rests solely on the hippocampus functioning properly.
So this is because the hippocampus can be involved in the formation of new memories,
and also it's associated with learning and emotions.
But if the hippocampus is damaged, when the body releases cortisol,
that hormone again released during times of stress.
Then cortisol in effect is attacking the neurons in the hippocampus causing
it to shrink, and then the amygdala is stimulated by the cortisol which then
turns our thoughts and neural activity from increasing our mental acuity to worry and stress.
But then what is good is that the the neuroplasticity of the brain is a very real thing.
So there is a way back to normal functioning brain, but there is a way back
to normal functioning brain.
Loughlin says that through certain methods like EMDR, victims exhibiting signs
of PTSD can regrow 6 % of their hippocampus in just a few sessions.
And then EMDR can also calm the amygdala at the same time, allowing your brain
to react more rationally to situations, as well as doing things like talk therapy,
mindfulness, meditation,
any active practice that is lowering that baseline cortisol level or that resting heart rate.
But then the first step is pretty safe to say
doing what you can to get out of that destructive
or abusive relationship before any progress can be made because if you are continuing
to put yourself in these situations where your body is truly keeping the score
then it really can be something that you're emotionally compromised and so that
can be one of the biggest challenges to getting out of that unhealthy relationship.
This is a thing where if you've made it to this point in the podcast then I
know that you're showing up, I know that you're trying to do the work,
I know you want a better relationship,
you want to feel better, you want to do what's right for you and your family
and so you are taking those steps.
And so it might feel scary to hear those things like the complex post -traumatic
stress disorder or the things that happen to the brain but at some point it's
again knowledge is power and you're going from the place where you didn't know
what you didn't know and now you know but it still is really hard to do anything
different and that's part of the human experience. It's okay,
give yourself some grace.
But the more that you're aware of the tools and you're doing the work and hearing
all these different concepts that they'll slowly move from going from I didn't
know what I didn't know to I know but I don't do very often to now I'm doing
more than I don't and then eventually we'll land in just this good old place
of becoming and being and and so you're on your way,
you're on your path. So I would highly recommend that you,
Find somebody, a professional who works in this world, this field,
this world of emotional immaturity, or maybe even personality disorders or abuse,
and start getting the right tools. Listen to podcasts.
There's no scarcity mindset when it comes to the world of, hopefully,
with podcasts or therapists that are working in this world or this field.
Listen to them all, compare them, contrast them, find your own personalized
treatment plan, and just know that you are, you know, you're right where you
need to be. And when people say, how long is it going to take?
It will take as long as it takes. And I know that sounds, that can almost sound
a little bit dismissive.
But if you're ruminating and worrying and beating yourself up,
just know that that is absolutely a waste of emotional calories and time, but it happens.
And so the more that you can just notice that you are maybe ruminating or worrying
and then bring yourself back to the present moment And then take action and
do things that really matter to you then Overtime what it feels like to be you
as somebody that takes action All right.
Hey, give me your questions your thoughts your comments anything that I can
do to help and Thanks for joining me and I'll see you next week on waking up to narcissism.
Music.