WEBVTT

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Music.

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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 95 of Waking Up to Narcissism.

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I am your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and

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welcome to the sixth installment, I think, of the Waking Up to Narcissism Death

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by a Thousand Cuts series.

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And I'll just keep it brief so we can get right to the episode.

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If you can go to the link tree in the show notes or just go to TonyOverbay .com,

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sign up for my newsletter there and you will get all the latest and greatest

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stuff on the various podcasts and courses coming up, programs,

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groups that you can join.

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And if you also have a moment and you are interested, please sign up for the

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There's a lot more coming there as well.

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I think it's $5 a month, $4 .99.

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And that would be wonderful. So let's get to today's episode.

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I was recently talking with a client and this

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is somebody who has on occasion stopped themselves when they have started to

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describe how ancient somebody they know is as the beginning of the word 50 as

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in their late 50s Starts to come out of their mouth as they start to think I

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don't really know how old Tony is and I am 53 54 later this month.

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Thank you very much And since that time and again, I love humor and I think

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that humor absolutely plays a wonderful role in therapy This person likes to

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make the hey, what was it like before cars and refrigeration kind of jokes?

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But recently, I think that this person thought they were being funny,

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but they asked me if I had ever been a fan of the Choose Your Own Adventure computer games.

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And so I said, Oh, on the contrary, I can one up that.

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I guess said like a true formerly emotionally immature person.

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I used to have Choose Your Own Adventure books.

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Where you get to the end of page three and then if it

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presents you with a choice to go on an adventure

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with a friend or steal their backpack if you

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go on the adventure you turn to page four and if you want to take their backpack

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it says turn to page 153 which you know if it's going to go that far that you're

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going to end up you're going to take their stuff and they're going to punch

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your lights out in the bookends or maybe they give you the backpack and they

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say you must need it or something but that's not why you want to get a choose

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your own adventure book.

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But today, I want to let you choose your own adventure, but first,

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let's get you warmed up and choose your own beginning to this incredible Death

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by a Thousand Cuts episode.

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Because I think as you start to hear the stories today, you really can begin,

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even if it's only in your own mind or your thoughts or your hopes or your dreams,

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to pick a new adventure yourself in your own life.

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And hopefully it's one where you start to recognize that you really don't deserve

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to to be controlled and you are a human being, not a human doing,

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and you do have your own thoughts and opinions and feelings and emotions and

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those are wonderful things and that in a healthy relationship,

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then we're learning how to grow interdependently,

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differentiated from your partner and you become two incredible people who now

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can have shared experiences and you're choosing into the relationship,

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not trying to control anybody in the relationship or be controlled in the relationship.

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So with that said, here's the warmup. We're going to start with a humorous opening

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and I turned to my good friend chat GPT and created a movie trailer that begins

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once again with my very favorite phrase in a world.

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So I'm going to read that, but I didn't give chat GPT the exact instructions.

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I said that it was a narrative only movie trailer, so they did give me some

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screen directions or some audio sound effects that should be there,

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which I do not have. So I will, I will call those out as well.

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So it says in a dramatic movie trailer voice. So let me do my best.

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In a world where relationships can be as sharp as a razor, one podcast dares

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to expose the subtle slices of life.

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It's supposed to have a knife sharpening sound effect, which would have been really nice right now.

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Introducing death by a thousand cuts, when love feels less like cupids arrow

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and more like a swarm of paper cuts.

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And then this is where I think it gets pretty cheesy, you're supposed to hear a sound effect of ouch.

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Okay, I am pulling the plug, pulling the ripcord on the humorous choose your

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own example episode because this is a pretty sensitive topic.

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I have a poem that I want to read that I think might show more of the creative

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choice or how you choose your own adventure through creativity and expression.

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But before we do that too, let me share another version.

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Maybe that first one was A, here's B, and then we'll go the poem is going to

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be door behind door number three or option C.

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So, B, or door number two, is I think it's important to note that so many people

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that find themselves identifying with these Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes,

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this is somebody who, the pathologically kind person, who is on a quest,

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and it is a valiant quest because in a healthy relationship,

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it is a quest that can really help people grow together, closer,

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and help you figure things out about yourself.

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But it is that concept where you are driving yourself crazy trying to make sense

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of the behaviors of somebody who just does not make sense, especially with any amount of consistency.

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Because remember that emotional or that emotionally immature or narcissistic

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person, they are simply reacting to that very moment.

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And in that moment, they are viewing the interaction with a way to get rid of their discomfort,

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to then take a one -up position, to feel like they exist because they have a

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negative interaction with somebody where they can now take that one -up position

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or they can assume a victim mentality and have you come rescue them.

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But it doesn't matter in that scenario if you are wrong or they are right.

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It's regardless of the situation and how crazy their excuses might sound that

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the pathologically kind person, be it the man or the woman in this scenario.

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That the more that they try to figure out and seek clarification and then tries

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to then say, okay, I'm trying to put all these pieces together so I can do what

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is best for our relationship or for the kids or the family,

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but then it just is a never -ending moving target.

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I got permission to share, let's just call her Emily, it's not her name,

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but she truly exemplified I guess what I would call this pathological kindness

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because she was in a relationship with somebody that I think could best be described

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as highly emotionally immature, displaying.

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Pretty consistent narcissistic traits and tendencies and her goal was continually to try to figure out.

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I wanna understand what call a mic so emily wants to understand my can she come

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in can just wanting to lay out all of the data we would review the game film

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and i saw those inconsistencies pretty.

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Pretty clearly but what is fascinating about the way that are human brain works

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it's this concept called epiphany where we look for patterns it's a survival instinct.

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If her ancestors saw the grass moving around in the ground, we would then say,

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okay, the pattern typically is if grass is moving and I don't see anything there,

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that there's probably a snake in that grass and it is going to jump out and get me.

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So I noticed that pattern, it helps me make sense of things and now I can make

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a educated decision and I will probably leave the area.

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Or if I'm hunting for food, then I'm getting my killing stick ready and we're

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about to have snake for dinner.

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I've watched a lot of Naked and Afraid to be fair. But in that scenario,

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though, our own brain looks for those patterns and then says,

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okay, this helps me. I can understand.

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I see the pattern. I see the grass moving. It must be a snake.

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I'm going to prepare myself.

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And all of a sudden, the person says, I don't even know why you call that grass.

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Really? You think that's grass? Or I didn't see anything moving.

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So in that scenario, the more that Emily tried to understand,

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believing that if she could just figure this out, it would make the relationship

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better, then the more crazy that she felt.

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And a couple of examples that Mike would often make disparaging comments about

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how she managed their finances, which she had no desire to manage the finances,

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but it gave him an opportunity to continually criticize,

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monitor, but then gaslight when he would make purchases.

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And so when she would try to even discuss spending habits or try to find common

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ground and then make sense, try to find the patterns in their spending,

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or just try to see what he said last time and how does that match up?" Then

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he would shift the blame immediately, accusing her then of being controlling,

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and she just can't enjoy life.

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Emily, seeking clarity, would end up feeling more bewildered after every single conversation.

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Another example from that same couple, Emily approached Mike about,

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quite frankly, his tendency to invalidate her feelings, as in most all of them.

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And then, shocking, he responded by accusing her of overreacting and being overly emotional,

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which only then served to make her then question her own perceptions and then

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want to express her feelings even more, but now knowing and feeling completely

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unsafe that if she shared those feelings she would be told that she's wrong

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and that those are the wrong feelings to have or she shouldn't look at it that way.

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And then the last example was a time where Emily was really excited about a

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potential job opportunity and so what was Mike's first reaction?

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How is this gonna impact or affect him? No curiosity.

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So he criticized the job's impact on their schedule instead of share in her excitement.

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And so then she she thought, okay this I can understand and I know this pattern

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so I want to have this conversation.

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So then she expressed hurt over his lack of support and then he turned it around

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and said the all too familiar and very unproductive line that she couldn't take

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any form of criticism and that she was being too sensitive.

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So in each one of those situations, Mike would leave the conversation without

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really any apparent concern, but she would be left feeling absolutely confused,

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questioning her own reality, and then feeling more and more isolated in her experiences.

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So these are examples of those cuts because if you told somebody about each

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one of these on their own or maybe even all together, the person would say,

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well, okay, maybe were you being a little too sensitive?

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Or, well, maybe he's having a rough day too. And there we have our Switzerland friends.

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And it was interesting because the more that Emily would come in and process

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these things, she would say, OK, but I'm sure he's frustrated about this,

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too, or he's struggling, too.

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And that's where I would almost feel bad of saying, oh, he's on a bike ride.

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He he got rid of that discomfort.

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You feel you're left feeling like what just happened and it must be me and I need to figure this out.

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And he feels good and he wants to know what's for dinner or are we going to

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have sex later that night? Because he feels good.

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And we already had that conversation. Now, if you bring it up,

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well, you're holding on to the past.

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So those are those examples of the cuts. Scratch option A, the humorous movie trailer.

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So we've got, is this where you're at? Is this the choose your own adventure

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where, okay, I need to just start recognizing more things or then let's get to this next option.

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Let me now get to the heart of the episode today. And I want you to know,

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I want to model that part of the human experience is you can have seriousness, you can have laughter.

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It's called whole object relations. You can laugh, you can cry,

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you can be frustrated, you can be happy, and you can do all of those things

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within the same setting, within a situation where you're watching a movie or

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having a good conversation with a friend.

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You can experience all the emotions, because too often, the emotionally immature

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go to all or nothing, black or white.

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So admittedly, that was as much of a groaner as that movie trailer was.

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It was a little bit intentional because this poem is pretty incredible.

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So, but now let's really get into the episode with a poem by a listener who

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gave permission for me to share, and they were kind and said that the podcast

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has been a lifesaver, and I honestly don't think that they mean the candy.

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And yes, again, my secondary emotion of humor worked its way in there because

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when you hear this poem, I really do think it's going to bring some really big

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emotions. Here's the poem. you,

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In the days of our bright beginning, love's embrace felt so free and so winning.

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Eyes sparkled with stars, hearts skipped a beat, and a dance so intense, so beautifully sweet.

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Yet as time unfurled its relentless march, subtle slashes began,

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leaving the faintest arch.

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A remark here, a glance there, so sly, so discreet, hidden neath laughter, where joy and pain meet.

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With each fleeting day more cuts would appear, invisible wounds bringing shadow

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and tear. No one could see them, not family, not friend.

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And as I withered and waned, starting to bend, like a leaf in the wind,

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I felt fragile and torn from countless small cuts silently born.

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I began to fade, my strength starting to wane, drowning in silence, suffocated by pain.

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But as darkness encroached and hope seemed to die, a gentle soul noticed hearing

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my silent cry, then saw just one cut and started to mend with a touch so kind a message they'd send.

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Though I was near broken, their care sparked a flame, whispering to me life

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wasn't just pain and shame.

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Maybe just maybe with love's healing art, I

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could find my way back and make a fresh start." So just a such a powerful poem

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that talks about the concept of how things can go from seemingly almost bliss

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to then slowly but surely the eroding of one's sense of self through the death by a thousand cuts.

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If you're just new to the podcast, what is the Death by a Thousand Cuts series about?

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A lot of listeners have reached out sharing that they really struggle to explain

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the challenges in their relationships because it's not the in -your -face kind of abuse.

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You know, it's not always physical, it isn't people always being hit or even loud shouting.

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It's something that is far more sneaky, more hidden, and you can refer to it

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often as covert abuse. So it's.

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Being slowly cut a thousand times and just

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starting to slowly bleed out or even the pain of the cuts

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and so each cut might seem small over time they pile up and those start to cause

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really deep emotional scars and I have the having the content out there now

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I don't see this as much but when I would initially start working with people

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that are in these relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.

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They would almost, they would, they would hesitate to start explaining what

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things were like in their marriage

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because it wouldn't ever sound like the absolute yelling or screaming,

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although certainly that comes into play often, or the physical abuse,

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or it was just a constant not being seen, not being understood,

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not being cared about, their needs being put at the bottom of the pile.

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And just over time, people starting to just feel like they were going crazy.

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And I noticed over the years that you would just hear the similar patterns or

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even the similar things over and over again and often just being able to express that to a client,

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you can see them get emotional because they typically felt like they were going

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crazy or that these things weren't a big deal or that I would even say,

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well, it doesn't sound so bad.

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But really, the concept of covert abuse is so challenging, especially to put

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your finger on compared to overt abuse because it's more like this gradual fog

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that just kind of slowly rolls in because it's so subtle.

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And then before you know it, you really can't see more than your hand in front of your face.

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And so, then imagine trying to explain why you're hurting when there's no clear

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bruise or shout to point to, because that is the uphill battle that so many

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people face when they're dealing with covert narcissistic abuse or extreme emotional immaturity.

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And I won't get into it today because I want to get to – we have a lot of good

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examples. but then trying to explain it to somebody else.

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And so often, the other person, this is where we talk about,

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this is the time where we don't need those Switzerland friends,

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but where you hear often that, well, at least he doesn't do this,

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or at least she's not doing this, but that's that person trying to help you.

00:15:35.352 --> 00:15:39.532
I can understand that, but more trying to get out of their own discomfort of,

00:15:39.932 --> 00:15:42.472
or trying to let you know, think of something you've never thought about,

00:15:42.632 --> 00:15:44.572
which you've thought about all of those things, I guarantee.

00:15:45.472 --> 00:15:47.312
And if you think it's always interesting to.

00:15:48.112 --> 00:15:51.812
Share the origin of the death by a thousand cuts concept. If you look back in

00:15:51.812 --> 00:15:55.252
history, death by a thousand cuts was a form of torture and execution,

00:15:55.872 --> 00:16:00.312
used, I found some links directly to ancient China, but it meant a slow and

00:16:00.312 --> 00:16:01.612
painful death, while the victim

00:16:01.612 --> 00:16:05.712
suffered from numerous small wounds until they eventually succumbed.

00:16:05.752 --> 00:16:08.792
So then again, in the context of the discussions around this topic,

00:16:09.212 --> 00:16:14.992
it symbolizes this whole cumulative harm and pain of so many seemingly small,

00:16:15.232 --> 00:16:20.272
minor, hurtful actions or words, and that eventually leads to large,

00:16:20.432 --> 00:16:21.552
significant emotional pain.

00:16:22.212 --> 00:16:24.412
Withdrawal, when you look at the concept of the body keeps the score,

00:16:24.492 --> 00:16:28.192
it can really lead to physical manifestations of the emotional pain as well.

00:16:28.872 --> 00:16:32.492
And just real quick, we'll touch on, there are these different types of abuse

00:16:32.492 --> 00:16:34.832
in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships.

00:16:34.952 --> 00:16:38.592
You've got psychological abuse, where it is when somebody messes with your mind.

00:16:38.592 --> 00:16:42.872
I mean, it's things like gaslighting, when people make you doubt your own memories or your own judgment.

00:16:43.472 --> 00:16:46.812
If your spouse is constantly telling you that you're overreacting or you're

00:16:46.812 --> 00:16:49.692
imagining things every time that you feel hurt by their actions.

00:16:50.412 --> 00:16:54.632
There's emotional abuse, which is constant criticism, belittling, humiliation.

00:16:55.412 --> 00:16:59.292
And if somebody is continually trying to point out your flaws or in front of

00:16:59.292 --> 00:17:02.212
people or make you feel small and worthless, maybe not even in front of people.

00:17:02.812 --> 00:17:05.632
And again, these are some of the things that really break my heart because I

00:17:05.632 --> 00:17:11.032
will say all day that there really isn't a need at all in a relationship to

00:17:11.032 --> 00:17:14.112
point out someone's what you think their flaws are.

00:17:14.232 --> 00:17:17.172
You can ask them, you can be curious, but if you really look at the concept

00:17:17.172 --> 00:17:19.212
of differentiation, why does that bother you?

00:17:19.629 --> 00:17:23.569
You it's a you issue. Now that doesn't mean that the other person may not want

00:17:23.569 --> 00:17:25.969
to improve or change, but that's up to them.

00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:30.369
And so we can bring things to someone's awareness. But sometimes what people

00:17:30.369 --> 00:17:34.689
do, oftentimes what people do, and the reaction that maybe I have to that,

00:17:35.029 --> 00:17:40.889
again, as a me thing, why do I feel the need to control their behavior when they do a certain thing?

00:17:41.449 --> 00:17:45.849
If it bothers me, there's a lot of bothering me, why do I feel the need to control it?

00:17:45.889 --> 00:17:49.109
Who made me the owner of that person's experience or their emotions?

00:17:49.109 --> 00:17:53.329
So, I just think that is just so important to recognize. That's part of that emotional abuse.

00:17:53.869 --> 00:17:57.729
We got financial abuse where one partner will control all the finances or limits

00:17:57.729 --> 00:17:58.729
the other person's access.

00:17:59.189 --> 00:18:02.509
And I know that there's a spectrum of all of these things because I know that

00:18:02.509 --> 00:18:05.609
there are often people, I will talk to people that will say,

00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:07.829
I don't want to be in charge of all the finances.

00:18:07.829 --> 00:18:12.589
But then when I put out an emotional bid and say I would like help with this,

00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:16.609
there's so much wrapped up in there where then let's just say it's the wife

00:18:16.609 --> 00:18:19.789
who handles the finances and then she says, I don't want to keep doing this.

00:18:19.869 --> 00:18:21.429
And so she says, I'd like help from the husband.

00:18:21.649 --> 00:18:25.429
But then she realizes that, okay, he's going to question everything I do and

00:18:25.429 --> 00:18:29.169
I do the things I do because I have to because I don't have any support when

00:18:29.169 --> 00:18:33.769
it comes to buying school clothes for the kids or food or any of these kind of things.

00:18:33.769 --> 00:18:39.029
Or the guy may not want to confront that because he doesn't want to really know.

00:18:39.169 --> 00:18:43.449
He wants to be able to say she's overspending rather than seeing his own part in it.

00:18:43.549 --> 00:18:44.729
Or maybe that is something that

00:18:44.729 --> 00:18:48.309
makes him feel less than when it comes to his job or how much he makes.

00:18:48.469 --> 00:18:51.709
So there's so much more there that when you have the right tools that I would

00:18:51.709 --> 00:18:54.629
hope that people could have a better mature conversation around that.

00:18:54.629 --> 00:18:58.669
There's religious abuse where people use religion or spiritual beliefs to control or belittle,

00:18:59.209 --> 00:19:02.329
where somebody will then, I used to call it pulling the Holy Ghost card,

00:19:02.429 --> 00:19:07.149
where somebody feels an impression or they have a revelation of something that

00:19:07.149 --> 00:19:10.229
the partner needs to do, or something that they feel that.

00:19:10.780 --> 00:19:13.580
Their partner needs to join them on because it's their revelation.

00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:17.120
And then there's sexual abuse, and especially by coercion, where one partner

00:19:17.120 --> 00:19:20.900
manipulates or pressures the other person into sex without clear consent,

00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:23.200
or the other person, the spouse, feels like,

00:19:23.540 --> 00:19:28.140
if I don't do this, there is going to be a cost because the spouse will shut

00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:30.280
down, become emotionally withdrawn,

00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.200
will make it difficult on the spouse who's not wanting to have sex.

00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:38.320
And so this is where you get a lot of the guilt trips of into sex.

00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:41.840
If you love me, you would, or don't you know how much pain I'm in or those kind

00:19:41.840 --> 00:19:44.660
of things. And those are all immature responses or reactions.

00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:49.480
So each type of these, each type of this abuse creates its own set of wounds,

00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:50.900
but they have one thing in common.

00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:55.360
They erode a person's sense of self -worth and autonomy. And that is not okay

00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:59.000
in a relationship. You can have love or control in an adult relationship.

00:19:59.560 --> 00:20:03.280
Remember just because the scars aren't always visible, it doesn't mean that they aren't there.

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.980
Most of these have come from the private women's Facebook group.

00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:10.980
And if somebody's interested in becoming a part of, please reach out.

00:20:11.340 --> 00:20:13.440
The men's group, it's starting to sound like a broken record,

00:20:13.560 --> 00:20:15.880
but I love the fact that this is, these episodes are evergreen.

00:20:16.020 --> 00:20:19.380
So at some point we will be talking about the men's group. I think that we're

00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:21.440
so close now and we've got enough people that are interested.

00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:26.900
So reach out, please. But this comes from the women's group and everything has been okay to share.

00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:31.360
And some of the things will be changed, names and situations change to protect the innocent.

00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:34.880
And I'm going to just read some of these. I'll, I'll comment on many,

00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.960
but maybe not on all because there's a lot and I just want to be able to get

00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.060
the content out there and there are some that I definitely want to comment on.

00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:44.740
The first person said, my ex would remind me at times that I didn't need to

00:20:44.740 --> 00:20:46.120
finish all the food on my plate,

00:20:46.300 --> 00:20:49.780
that I could throw away the Christmas goodies that neighbors would deliver that

00:20:49.780 --> 00:20:53.400
he only ate till he was full because it was uncomfortable if he ate more than

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.600
that with the covert message being that I should do the same.

00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:01.780
This is the part where I think so often that it is that covert message of control

00:21:01.780 --> 00:21:05.380
or, you should probably stop eating now, because what does that convey?

00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.900
That, hey, I think you're eating too much. I don't like the way that you maybe

00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:11.120
look or the things that you're eating or how you do that.

00:21:11.834 --> 00:21:17.174
And then she eventually said that she found Google searches for how to motivate

00:21:17.174 --> 00:21:18.314
your wife to lose weight.

00:21:18.654 --> 00:21:22.414
And she said this was mostly during the couple of years after we'd had our sixth

00:21:22.414 --> 00:21:27.134
child and that she had ate pretty healthy, but her body just wouldn't let go

00:21:27.134 --> 00:21:29.894
of those last 20 pounds of baby weight, which I can't even imagine.

00:21:30.434 --> 00:21:35.734
And for him to then look for ways to motivate his wife instead of being grateful

00:21:35.734 --> 00:21:40.514
and curious, because I'm not sure if he, what he looked like after his fifth

00:21:40.514 --> 00:21:43.754
or sixth child, but it sounds like he knew what she should look like after hers.

00:21:44.034 --> 00:21:47.454
But he liked to elevate himself by putting me down. She said he cared about

00:21:47.454 --> 00:21:50.674
and valued his body by lifting weights all winter long, being fit.

00:21:50.994 --> 00:21:56.554
And she said that it, that meant to him that she obviously did not value her

00:21:56.554 --> 00:22:01.134
body again, even though it has carried human beings in it through birth, which is amazing.

00:22:01.614 --> 00:22:06.074
She said, nevermind the actual facts. I went on walks, I went on bike rides with all of our kids.

00:22:06.474 --> 00:22:10.154
I played basketball, volleyball, things like that a few months a year.

00:22:10.554 --> 00:22:14.534
But because my body didn't look how he wanted it to, again, if we go back to

00:22:14.534 --> 00:22:18.054
the beginning, kind of a him issue, she said it was a fair game to assume the

00:22:18.054 --> 00:22:20.394
good in himself and make negative assumptions about me.

00:22:20.834 --> 00:22:24.674
When I finally said I wanted to make peace with my body, he was incredibly hurt and offended.

00:22:25.094 --> 00:22:29.354
His words, I make my body attractive because it's a gift to you.

00:22:29.874 --> 00:22:33.694
Don't you want to do the same for me?" At the time, she said it was all so hurtful.

00:22:34.254 --> 00:22:37.334
She said, now, I just want to insert a big eye roll after each of these sentences,

00:22:37.574 --> 00:22:38.354
and you're welcome to share.

00:22:39.066 --> 00:22:42.986
And then the thing that I think is so fascinating is that they're on pretty

00:22:42.986 --> 00:22:46.706
much every comment that I'm going to read people would say, this is so familiar.

00:22:47.006 --> 00:22:48.126
I experienced this as well.

00:22:48.606 --> 00:22:51.806
And somebody commented and said, you know, it just makes me so sad that so many

00:22:51.806 --> 00:22:53.046
women do get treated this way.

00:22:53.446 --> 00:22:56.826
And she said, he sounds like a guy who may have grown up on pornography and

00:22:56.826 --> 00:22:58.886
women became objects to use and consume.

00:22:59.146 --> 00:23:03.166
Only here to appease his lust, she said she's glad to hear that this now he's

00:23:03.166 --> 00:23:06.906
an ex, and that she now sees how stupid that really was.

00:23:06.906 --> 00:23:12.826
And as a guy who, me, who helps people overcome turning to unhealthy coping

00:23:12.826 --> 00:23:15.926
mechanisms, again a big part of my practice is helping people turn away from

00:23:15.926 --> 00:23:19.926
pornography or food or their phones or any of the unhealthy coping mechanisms.

00:23:20.306 --> 00:23:23.106
I don't think I say it often enough on this Waking Up to Narcissism podcast.

00:23:23.286 --> 00:23:28.486
My whole platform of overcoming unhealthy coping mechanisms is filling these,

00:23:28.706 --> 00:23:30.906
what I call, voids in your life. So if I'm working with somebody,

00:23:31.026 --> 00:23:33.266
then it's a coping mechanism.

00:23:33.586 --> 00:23:36.226
So how are you doing in your marriage? How are you doing in your parenting?

00:23:36.466 --> 00:23:38.986
How are you doing in your faith, your health and your career?

00:23:39.446 --> 00:23:42.606
And when you start to get those things dialed in, then that desire to turn to

00:23:42.606 --> 00:23:45.606
the unhealthy coping mechanisms does not become as strong.

00:23:46.226 --> 00:23:49.646
Absolutely is something that if somebody is turning to something like porn,

00:23:49.766 --> 00:23:52.786
then there are these voids that are in their life.

00:23:52.826 --> 00:23:56.706
And if they were looking at porn from an early age, then the data has been there

00:23:56.706 --> 00:23:59.586
for quite a while. that means that that person has been sexualized young.

00:24:00.126 --> 00:24:04.706
And so then it's often the case that women become objects.

00:24:05.006 --> 00:24:08.326
So I think that's just something that maybe I need to cover on a future episode.

00:24:08.706 --> 00:24:11.666
Another person said that hers was her ex was covert.

00:24:12.526 --> 00:24:15.486
And she said it was so much harder to make sense of when you're in it.

00:24:16.046 --> 00:24:19.486
She said he always had plausible deniability. And she said if I called him out

00:24:19.486 --> 00:24:23.206
on it, he could easily shift it to I had heard it wrong, or I'd taken things

00:24:23.206 --> 00:24:27.666
the wrong way, or he just wasn't good with words and that that wasn't his intention.

00:24:27.906 --> 00:24:30.506
She said, even though I'm confident that it was.

00:24:31.226 --> 00:24:34.166
And then a couple of other people said that, yeah, that wasn't my intent was

00:24:34.166 --> 00:24:35.206
something that they heard often.

00:24:35.766 --> 00:24:38.186
And she said that a covert narcissist

00:24:38.186 --> 00:24:41.166
or emotionally immature person can just make you feel so insane.

00:24:42.046 --> 00:24:44.166
Somebody else said, I can just relate to the cut share to here.

00:24:44.226 --> 00:24:47.726
And in all the episodes, she said, my favorite is we couldn't have a cat or

00:24:47.726 --> 00:24:50.286
dog because my husband was severely allergic.

00:24:50.286 --> 00:24:54.866
So last year, he finally had a full allergy panel done and he's allergic to

00:24:54.866 --> 00:24:59.926
almost everything except cats and dogs, not even a little sensitive to critters.

00:25:00.486 --> 00:25:04.286
She said, I recently moved into my own apartment and I got animals and they

00:25:04.286 --> 00:25:06.966
bring me and my kids so much joy. Feel free to use the story.

00:25:07.506 --> 00:25:11.786
Then another person said, we talked about getting a dog, what kind and what timing would be good.

00:25:12.286 --> 00:25:16.326
And she said, he surprised me by getting a dog at the specific timing that we

00:25:16.326 --> 00:25:20.526
decided would not be good. and the one specific breed I said I did not want.

00:25:21.146 --> 00:25:23.666
But she said I felt forced to act happy and grateful for the gift.

00:25:24.066 --> 00:25:27.446
The dog was a gift to me. So I was thinking I would name it.

00:25:27.806 --> 00:25:31.406
And he vetoed at least five names before there was one that I could actually use.

00:25:31.466 --> 00:25:34.726
Years later, when a family friend got a dog, he suggested some of the names

00:25:34.726 --> 00:25:37.726
that he had vetoed from me, saying how much he's always liked those names.

00:25:38.445 --> 00:25:41.425
And it's interesting, I know we've got so much content to get to,

00:25:41.465 --> 00:25:46.125
you could break down almost any of these, where when, let's say that the emotionally

00:25:46.125 --> 00:25:50.625
immature person says, all of a sudden, I want the dog. Well, they want it right now.

00:25:51.225 --> 00:25:54.365
And so even when we're saying, okay, if they want to have the conversation and

00:25:54.365 --> 00:25:55.385
say, when should we get one?

00:25:55.985 --> 00:25:59.625
That if you say anything other than as soon as you would like to get one,

00:25:59.925 --> 00:26:03.465
then what they hear is, well, I think as soon as you would like to get one.

00:26:03.845 --> 00:26:06.645
So if you're saying, I think it would be better to wait till after the holidays

00:26:06.645 --> 00:26:09.365
or maybe in the summer when the kids are out of school, they hear,

00:26:09.905 --> 00:26:11.285
okay, but I want one right now.

00:26:11.705 --> 00:26:14.465
And so then that's where that impulsivity really comes into play.

00:26:14.985 --> 00:26:17.805
And then the names, it's a fascinating one, and this is one where I know that

00:26:17.805 --> 00:26:21.425
there's not an exact science to this, but so often the emotionally immature,

00:26:21.525 --> 00:26:25.865
narcissistic person can't ever, they have to be the one that comes up with the idea, the name.

00:26:25.865 --> 00:26:29.245
And so, then anything you put out there is going to be met with an immediate

00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:31.565
no, even if that's something that they liked.

00:26:31.865 --> 00:26:34.725
Because it's almost like this reflexive no, because this is,

00:26:34.845 --> 00:26:36.505
and I think this is going to be one of the themes today.

00:26:37.145 --> 00:26:40.145
If you really look at the core of emotional immaturity or narcissism,

00:26:40.445 --> 00:26:46.125
here's a little kid that didn't see a parent model taking ownership of any emotion,

00:26:46.345 --> 00:26:48.045
any thought, any action that they did.

00:26:48.045 --> 00:26:53.065
And it's somebody who the parent was really good at making the kid feel bad

00:26:53.065 --> 00:26:57.285
because again, if you grow up and you are emotionally mature,

00:26:57.445 --> 00:26:58.585
there's one way to do things.

00:26:58.645 --> 00:27:01.925
There's a right way, which means, and that is your way, which means all the

00:27:01.925 --> 00:27:03.105
other ways are wrong ways.

00:27:03.345 --> 00:27:07.285
So then as a parent, your little kid is going to do things their way because

00:27:07.285 --> 00:27:11.865
they're a kid, but then their way is the wrong way because that's not the way that you would do it.

00:27:12.045 --> 00:27:15.025
And now you also get a chance to take the one up position, even on a little

00:27:15.025 --> 00:27:18.065
kid and and lecture and tell them the things that they don't understand.

00:27:18.385 --> 00:27:21.925
And then you get to even tell them how they do understand those things and probably

00:27:21.925 --> 00:27:24.325
they understood them at a much younger age than you did, champ.

00:27:24.665 --> 00:27:26.765
But aren't you lucky that I'm your dad?

00:27:27.291 --> 00:27:32.871
So it can just be maddening. But in that scenario, then it has to be his suggestion of a name.

00:27:33.131 --> 00:27:36.171
Even if you like the name, well, he'll file that away and he'll bring it up later.

00:27:36.331 --> 00:27:39.511
And then you can be gaslit to say, I always wanted that name.

00:27:39.671 --> 00:27:41.131
You're the one that said that we couldn't use it.

00:27:41.551 --> 00:27:43.991
Another person said, I totally feel this. It's like their brain says,

00:27:44.151 --> 00:27:47.671
Oh, you hate this must be remembered as you love this, or I'm going to throw

00:27:47.671 --> 00:27:49.251
these at you just to see how you react.

00:27:49.571 --> 00:27:52.971
And if it's not what I think you should act like, then you're not grateful. Absolutely.

00:27:53.271 --> 00:27:56.811
And that's that is the case. Another person said, I go back and forth between

00:27:56.811 --> 00:28:00.971
thinking that things like this, when he does the exact opposite are purposeful

00:28:00.971 --> 00:28:06.091
or not purposeful, he knows, and either he does it to bother me and elicit a reaction or control,

00:28:06.291 --> 00:28:10.231
or purposeful, like he knows and decides he doesn't care because that's not

00:28:10.231 --> 00:28:12.711
what he wants, and only what he wants matters.

00:28:12.711 --> 00:28:16.651
Or she said, or it isn't purposeful because he doesn't think about me at all.

00:28:17.271 --> 00:28:21.451
And I say it is D, all of the above, because I really think that there's so

00:28:21.451 --> 00:28:24.991
much there where I think I maybe shared this in an episode a couple of weeks

00:28:24.991 --> 00:28:28.871
ago, but I had somebody who is now continuing in a workplace with,

00:28:28.991 --> 00:28:32.191
I think, a very highly narcissistic person that they have to interact with.

00:28:32.651 --> 00:28:37.071
And it is honestly, I think I used the example of it's almost as if the person

00:28:37.071 --> 00:28:41.931
says, Hey, I have to go walk around in the building and I don't know if I exist

00:28:41.931 --> 00:28:45.711
unless I have someone else going with me that then I can make feel worse and

00:28:45.711 --> 00:28:47.191
I can tell them how amazing I am.

00:28:47.611 --> 00:28:51.971
So can you come with me?" And so then the person that was telling me about this,

00:28:52.191 --> 00:28:57.131
they said that because other people have set boundaries and have just said no,

00:28:57.431 --> 00:28:59.351
and now they are on this person's bad list,

00:28:59.771 --> 00:29:03.391
the person I'm talking to is the pathologically kind person, so kind.

00:29:03.571 --> 00:29:07.491
So then they go and then they get to hear all the things that they don't understand,

00:29:07.711 --> 00:29:11.111
all the things that the workplace is doing wrong, and how much better that person

00:29:11.111 --> 00:29:12.931
would if they were in different positions of authority.

00:29:13.351 --> 00:29:17.511
I do really feel like that the true emotionally immature or narcissistic person

00:29:17.511 --> 00:29:22.151
needs, they just need another human to exist so that then they know that they

00:29:22.151 --> 00:29:24.191
exist so that they can then take this one -up position.

00:29:24.978 --> 00:29:28.038
So another person said sleep deprivation. He began waking me up every night.

00:29:28.138 --> 00:29:29.898
She said, I get up early for work and he sleeps late.

00:29:30.258 --> 00:29:33.418
So sometimes he would wake me up when he came to bed hours later.

00:29:33.578 --> 00:29:35.478
I would ask him not to wake me up and please let me sleep.

00:29:36.038 --> 00:29:39.258
And he would just say, he's just trying to cuddle or you woke yourself up.

00:29:39.678 --> 00:29:42.658
She said, it got so bad. I moved into the guest room. Then several times a week,

00:29:42.678 --> 00:29:45.218
he would come into the guest room and wake me up either climbing into my bed.

00:29:45.478 --> 00:29:48.978
And I would ask him to leave and he would refuse. Or at least once a week,

00:29:48.998 --> 00:29:51.918
he would wake me up to yell at me about something, start an argument.

00:29:52.358 --> 00:29:56.778
And it was this that made me realize I do not share in the responsibility of

00:29:56.778 --> 00:29:57.818
the conflict in our marriage.

00:29:58.278 --> 00:30:00.118
She said, it's hard to pick a fight when you're asleep.

00:30:00.838 --> 00:30:04.098
Another person said the cuts were not respecting privacy.

00:30:04.498 --> 00:30:07.938
She said, if I locked the door, like the guest room to sleep or the bathroom,

00:30:08.198 --> 00:30:09.638
he would unlock it and come in.

00:30:09.858 --> 00:30:12.958
He even broke down the guest room door once when I had locked it and then blocked

00:30:12.958 --> 00:30:15.198
the door because I was so desperate to sleep through the night.

00:30:15.778 --> 00:30:18.438
Someone said controlling the environment. And this one, this one,

00:30:18.518 --> 00:30:20.918
I get a lot of emails about this.

00:30:21.378 --> 00:30:24.638
The lights we set to his requirements, color, brightness, when they come on

00:30:24.638 --> 00:30:27.378
or off, he chose the temperature of the house. That one's such a common one.

00:30:27.738 --> 00:30:30.778
When I was allowed to run the dishwasher, laundry, he controls the home decor.

00:30:31.298 --> 00:30:34.898
If he chose the thing, he loved it. If I chose that same thing, it was horrible.

00:30:35.398 --> 00:30:38.518
I wasn't allowed to display the cookie jar that I had been given that was a

00:30:38.518 --> 00:30:42.978
wedding gift from my mom, a gift to her and my dad, who died when I was young,

00:30:43.198 --> 00:30:45.918
and he knew that that cookie jar had incredible sentimental value,

00:30:46.298 --> 00:30:48.018
but he would threaten me all the time to throw it out.

00:30:48.753 --> 00:30:53.073
When you look at, that's the thing that just is so, so heartbreaking to hear

00:30:53.073 --> 00:30:56.973
is that if you express that something is important to you and you're working

00:30:56.973 --> 00:31:00.893
with a truly emotionally immature narcissistic person, then that will be weaponized,

00:31:00.973 --> 00:31:02.133
it will be used against you.

00:31:02.513 --> 00:31:06.453
And that's one of those where it's just a matter of time and it again breaks

00:31:06.453 --> 00:31:10.373
my heart to see that because oftentimes the pathologically kind person will

00:31:10.373 --> 00:31:14.953
really open up and try to have a real tender moment with somebody that they care about.

00:31:14.953 --> 00:31:20.533
And that person may even act as if they're engaged, but then later, then they will use that.

00:31:20.693 --> 00:31:23.293
They know that is a button they can push to get you to respond.

00:31:23.913 --> 00:31:26.473
And when you remember that, the more that you start to stand up for yourself

00:31:26.473 --> 00:31:29.613
or set boundaries, and the narcissist sees the boundaries as a challenge,

00:31:29.693 --> 00:31:33.473
then they go for bigger and bigger buttons, which is part of that whole concept

00:31:33.473 --> 00:31:36.653
of why it's so important to gray rock, or to just kind of be.

00:31:37.293 --> 00:31:42.073
And you love that cookie jar, but I think what people often say is if they now

00:31:42.073 --> 00:31:44.593
knew, they knew then what they know now,

00:31:44.953 --> 00:31:48.693
they would just act indifferent to the cookie jar, but then on the inside,

00:31:48.873 --> 00:31:52.553
they would love it and appreciate it, which it may sound like somebody listening

00:31:52.553 --> 00:31:54.853
says, okay, all right, I like that, it's a survival tool.

00:31:55.193 --> 00:31:58.713
But the relationship, I don't believe, should be a place where someone is trying

00:31:58.713 --> 00:32:04.453
to find survival tools, should be a place where one is learning to flourish

00:32:04.453 --> 00:32:06.673
and just become a better version of them.

00:32:07.373 --> 00:32:11.353
Never showing up in over 20 years together. This person said,

00:32:11.453 --> 00:32:13.553
I was at every one of the family dinners, the events.

00:32:14.013 --> 00:32:16.713
I stayed with his family for weeks after babies were born.

00:32:17.233 --> 00:32:21.593
I took care of his family. I visited his grandparents on my own when I traveled into their town.

00:32:21.793 --> 00:32:25.413
I supported his parents and his extended family at every opportunity I could.

00:32:26.073 --> 00:32:29.653
And he came to a total of two of my family's events over 20 years.

00:32:30.233 --> 00:32:32.973
Not only would he not come with me to any of my family events,

00:32:33.093 --> 00:32:36.613
weddings, family gatherings, funerals, special events, he would then complain

00:32:36.613 --> 00:32:38.713
that I was leaving so that I could attend.

00:32:39.053 --> 00:32:42.573
And she said, I've lost track of the number of times that I had to lie to protect

00:32:42.573 --> 00:32:46.573
him when I was asked where he was, and I would say that he had some obligation

00:32:46.573 --> 00:32:48.433
that kept him from being able to be there.

00:32:49.186 --> 00:32:54.626
And sometimes I do get the questions asked about what does a boundary even really look like?

00:32:55.546 --> 00:33:00.286
And one here could be, you know, I'm not going to lie for you to my family.

00:33:00.926 --> 00:33:05.206
Now, then you can obviously see that then the next thing coming up is the narcissist

00:33:05.206 --> 00:33:07.006
isn't going to say, okay, I get it.

00:33:07.306 --> 00:33:09.006
Yeah. You can just tell them that I don't really feel like coming.

00:33:09.246 --> 00:33:13.206
No, they wouldn't do that. So now they can use the, I can't believe you won't support me.

00:33:13.306 --> 00:33:16.186
Well, you lie all the time, whatever the button is, it's going to be pushed. Okay.

00:33:16.586 --> 00:33:19.566
Why don't you tell that you do this or okay I'll call them up right now and

00:33:19.566 --> 00:33:20.946
I'll tell them all the things you do wrong.

00:33:21.246 --> 00:33:25.226
It's so emotionally immature but that's where things can be difficult but where

00:33:25.226 --> 00:33:26.806
you can start to make a real change.

00:33:27.066 --> 00:33:31.106
If it's saying you know you can do whatever you want to do you don't have to

00:33:31.106 --> 00:33:34.386
go to the events or the functions but I am going to go and I'm not going to

00:33:34.386 --> 00:33:37.566
cover up for you anymore and it can be really difficult to set those boundaries

00:33:37.566 --> 00:33:40.746
but that is a good example of a boundary that can be held.

00:33:41.006 --> 00:33:44.166
And again whether you're in the workplace or in your relationship or whatever that looks like.

00:33:44.506 --> 00:33:48.146
Someone said sabotaging when there's an event that is about me And she said,

00:33:48.186 --> 00:33:51.846
I've been recognized a few times in my industry or my community or company events,

00:33:51.926 --> 00:33:55.926
my church or nonprofit work, then he will sabotage me just before the event,

00:33:56.226 --> 00:33:57.626
we get into some sort of massive fight,

00:33:57.986 --> 00:34:00.406
or he stalls and makes us really late, or he won't come at all.

00:34:00.586 --> 00:34:03.786
Or if he does come to the actual event, then if he's there, then he will be

00:34:03.786 --> 00:34:06.446
supportive and take pictures and talk to people about how great I am.

00:34:06.486 --> 00:34:09.666
And she said, it's so confusing and painful. And it's interesting,

00:34:09.746 --> 00:34:12.366
my wife and I were on a run a few nights ago and just talking about some various

00:34:12.366 --> 00:34:16.126
things and we were sharing some stories about, I think, a mutual acquaintance

00:34:16.126 --> 00:34:21.046
and pointing out that it was a situation where whenever the husband was going to go out of town,

00:34:21.186 --> 00:34:26.366
then the wife would have a flare -up of kind of a name, name the disease, fill in the disease.

00:34:26.966 --> 00:34:31.126
And it was sad because in this scenario, the husband ended up dying.

00:34:31.649 --> 00:34:35.229
In essence, kind of stepping away from his career because it got to the point

00:34:35.229 --> 00:34:37.829
where it was so bad and I know that they weren't getting help for it.

00:34:37.949 --> 00:34:42.329
Nobody was going to therapy and it would just result in fights and frustration,

00:34:42.609 --> 00:34:46.069
but it really, you can see patterns like that often. Wasting time.

00:34:46.629 --> 00:34:49.589
A person said, this is a huge trigger for my husband. When he was ready to go,

00:34:49.709 --> 00:34:52.409
I better be in the car already and it was a huge deal if I ever had to run back

00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:53.249
into the house for anything.

00:34:53.629 --> 00:34:56.369
The minute or two delay would be such an inconvenience. There's no point even

00:34:56.369 --> 00:35:00.029
going anymore, he would say. But if he needed to do anything at all that would

00:35:00.029 --> 00:35:03.709
delay us, whether it's 5, 10, 15 minutes, even up to an hour,

00:35:03.809 --> 00:35:06.109
then I better not complain because there was a reason why.

00:35:06.289 --> 00:35:09.889
Or because, well, I always make, I'm always doing things like that too.

00:35:11.369 --> 00:35:13.989
These are the situations where in a healthy adult relationship,

00:35:13.989 --> 00:35:18.229
I think it's important to point out, I don't know, unless you're getting on

00:35:18.229 --> 00:35:21.709
an airplane, maybe a tea time, but not really.

00:35:22.129 --> 00:35:27.049
Then things happen and people are late. And if you are the person that is habitually

00:35:27.049 --> 00:35:31.409
late and your partner is pretty cool about things, you know Maybe that is something

00:35:31.409 --> 00:35:34.629
that you can take a look at self -confront. Maybe you want to grow.

00:35:34.869 --> 00:35:40.109
Why am I but in so many of these situations? I think people are just being and doing being human and,

00:35:40.649 --> 00:35:44.129
Because it goes back to that if you are a couple minutes late now the narcissist

00:35:44.129 --> 00:35:48.309
or the emotionally immature person Has something that they can latch on to they

00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:51.289
can grab a hold of and then they can use against you.

00:35:52.058 --> 00:35:54.918
Food. There are a lot of things, a lot of things around food.

00:35:54.998 --> 00:35:57.018
I think I've talked about this in some of the previous episodes.

00:35:57.738 --> 00:36:00.358
This person said, it's taken me years to admit to myself that I'm a good cook.

00:36:00.478 --> 00:36:03.518
Doesn't matter how many times my friends or my family would tell me it was so

00:36:03.518 --> 00:36:06.558
hard to receive praise from my husband that I never thought it was true.

00:36:06.998 --> 00:36:11.498
Not long ago, his sister and her family came over to visit and dinner rolled

00:36:11.498 --> 00:36:14.378
around. So I put together something, salad, rice, some fish.

00:36:14.878 --> 00:36:19.478
I didn't have enough mahi -mahi in the freezer for everybody, so I cooked some cod.

00:36:19.898 --> 00:36:24.318
When I plated, even, she uses the word plated, so that means you know that she's a good cook.

00:36:24.878 --> 00:36:28.198
When I plated and everybody sat down, I realized I had given him a plate with

00:36:28.198 --> 00:36:31.998
the cod, he decided he recently doesn't like it, I knew he would have an issue with it.

00:36:32.098 --> 00:36:35.938
So I just, she said, I love it, grabbed my popcorn, having a popcorn moment,

00:36:36.478 --> 00:36:40.378
and he took one bite, and now in front of his family, he says how it wasn't good.

00:36:41.578 --> 00:36:45.118
And all of the things that he just didn't like about it, and he leaves the table

00:36:45.118 --> 00:36:46.138
and he sits down on the couch.

00:36:46.998 --> 00:36:49.798
Then she said, my eight -year -old nephew kept asking what he was doing and

00:36:49.798 --> 00:36:53.118
why he didn't like it. Because my eight -year -old said, but it's so good.

00:36:53.658 --> 00:36:56.418
So she said, even the child understood that this was childish behavior.

00:36:57.038 --> 00:37:00.618
Walking ahead, she said, I know this has been covered before 100 % this is true.

00:37:00.738 --> 00:37:02.518
He keeps a good 15 feet ahead of me always.

00:37:03.278 --> 00:37:06.698
Eating, he eats super fast, this is another one, and then is impatient with me to finish.

00:37:06.858 --> 00:37:09.898
Over the years I've changed and I now eat faster than anyone else,

00:37:09.918 --> 00:37:11.738
I know, but it's still too slow for him.

00:37:12.078 --> 00:37:15.418
And I think this would be one where it's that antagonistic style,

00:37:15.518 --> 00:37:16.778
the narcissist, everything's a competition.

00:37:17.278 --> 00:37:20.638
So if you speed up your eating, he's still better beat you and that way he can

00:37:20.638 --> 00:37:21.698
tell you how slow you are.

00:37:22.298 --> 00:37:24.998
But she said, I frequently have to take my food to go if we're at a restaurant,

00:37:25.118 --> 00:37:27.338
the occasion doesn't matter either special anniversary dinner,

00:37:27.758 --> 00:37:29.878
I'm one bite into my meal and he's asking for the bill.

00:37:30.698 --> 00:37:32.718
Another person talked about double standards for everything.

00:37:32.838 --> 00:37:35.438
It would be unforgivable if I did something, but if he does it,

00:37:35.478 --> 00:37:38.338
then I better not even point it out or there will be an argument and it will

00:37:38.338 --> 00:37:39.798
be turned around to be my fault.

00:37:40.338 --> 00:37:42.138
Hero or victim, nothing in between.

00:37:42.778 --> 00:37:46.298
She said, I'm not allowed to say no to anything. If I do, it's just a barrage

00:37:46.298 --> 00:37:49.198
or word salad of all the reasons that it's the worst thing that I could do is

00:37:49.198 --> 00:37:51.478
to tell him no, especially without being heard.

00:37:52.138 --> 00:37:57.838
Here's a person who said, this was a deep cut and one that he poured salt in, again, just last week.

00:37:57.958 --> 00:38:01.058
After our son was two, I sat down next to my husband and I told him,

00:38:01.378 --> 00:38:05.318
I would like to stop taking my birth control to begin trying for another baby.

00:38:05.898 --> 00:38:11.098
He immediately got upset and said, so what, get a vasectomy, or no more sex?

00:38:11.971 --> 00:38:16.231
I was so taken back i didn't know why he would even say that then the anger

00:38:16.231 --> 00:38:20.691
said into him suddenly he's accusing me of taking the decision out of his hands

00:38:20.691 --> 00:38:25.531
as if i said i am going to stop taking birth control which i know i absolutely did not.

00:38:26.111 --> 00:38:29.451
This is one of those conversations that i intended to have as normal married

00:38:29.451 --> 00:38:34.211
couples do of are we ready to have another kid. Or should we wait a bit longer?

00:38:34.471 --> 00:38:37.351
What about our age? What about how our son was in emergency C -section?

00:38:37.731 --> 00:38:41.591
What about my health?" But she said, there was none of the curiosity in questions.

00:38:42.291 --> 00:38:46.391
She said, just went from a simple sentence to open communications on the subject

00:38:46.391 --> 00:38:49.071
to being accused of not allowing him to make a decision.

00:38:49.691 --> 00:38:52.751
She said, I was so oblivious to what was going on here that for the first time

00:38:52.751 --> 00:38:55.271
I gave him the silent treatment and it lasted for up to two weeks.

00:38:55.911 --> 00:38:57.311
She said, unintentionally, I

00:38:57.311 --> 00:39:00.291
just didn't have anything nice to say and I needed to gather my thoughts.

00:39:00.291 --> 00:39:03.771
And it was during this time that I realized he was doing exactly what he was

00:39:03.771 --> 00:39:08.211
accusing me of as well as understanding he never wanted our first child and

00:39:08.211 --> 00:39:11.311
only did it because he wanted me to know what it's like to be a mom,

00:39:11.651 --> 00:39:15.451
when really, he knew if we didn't, it was a deal breaker for me.

00:39:15.911 --> 00:39:19.171
So now being told he doesn't want any more over and over, he won't adopt,

00:39:19.251 --> 00:39:23.311
he won't foster, it's all his decision, which is very much still a deal breaker,

00:39:23.771 --> 00:39:26.531
but now he knows leaving has been made more complicated. it.

00:39:27.071 --> 00:39:30.151
After the two -week silence from me, he said he was going to let me know that

00:39:30.151 --> 00:39:33.031
he was ready to try again on my birthday, which was a few weeks away,

00:39:33.451 --> 00:39:35.491
but then apparently she said I ruined it.

00:39:35.871 --> 00:39:38.431
I called him out saying that's just it. You're going to continually tell me

00:39:38.431 --> 00:39:43.151
that I ruined it, so it will be on me anytime I bring it up until I run out of time biologically.

00:39:43.511 --> 00:39:45.911
She said I probably only have a few years left of viable eggs.

00:39:46.631 --> 00:39:49.531
He reassured me that that wasn't it, but told me that he was trying to surprise

00:39:49.531 --> 00:39:53.371
me by buying me a new bigger car that we would then have room in,

00:39:53.651 --> 00:39:57.271
but I ruined it by ruining the surprise and wanting to pick my own car out.

00:39:57.951 --> 00:40:01.051
She said just last week this came up when he told me everything had to be my

00:40:01.051 --> 00:40:04.131
way. I pointed out that no more kids was not my way.

00:40:04.711 --> 00:40:07.931
Not being able to move furniture or decorate is not my way.

00:40:08.591 --> 00:40:13.271
He told me again that he was ready to try for another kid, but I had to threaten

00:40:13.271 --> 00:40:16.111
him with my decision to stop taking birth control, which I never did,

00:40:16.471 --> 00:40:18.711
nor did I plan to, unless we agreed it was time.

00:40:19.391 --> 00:40:23.631
And now he's too old, and I'm definitely too old, since I'm a year and a half older than him.

00:40:24.111 --> 00:40:27.071
She said, this is what started off my journey of realizing my marriage wasn't

00:40:27.071 --> 00:40:29.331
normal and something big was off.

00:40:30.131 --> 00:40:33.991
Another person said, one of the cuts is when he tells me that I don't love him

00:40:33.991 --> 00:40:37.591
unconditionally or I never loved him because I'm upset about his behavior.

00:40:38.573 --> 00:40:42.073
When he says that I don't have any sympathy and that there's no way I could

00:40:42.073 --> 00:40:44.893
ever understand what he's been through in his life and I'm just perfect and

00:40:44.893 --> 00:40:45.833
everything is just perfect.

00:40:46.453 --> 00:40:49.913
During fights, when I'm trying to talk about how I feel, he will mimic me or

00:40:49.913 --> 00:40:51.933
downplay what I'm saying, like I'm being ridiculous.

00:40:52.633 --> 00:40:56.033
When he starts yelling at me, I try to stay patient, and then after a while,

00:40:56.193 --> 00:40:59.853
I end up yelling back. And then he giggles and he looks at me like I'm totally psychotic.

00:41:00.453 --> 00:41:03.273
Not being intimate or physical with me at all for a very long time,

00:41:03.713 --> 00:41:06.193
and me bringing up that it makes makes me feel unwanted and insecure.

00:41:06.913 --> 00:41:09.873
And then when I tell him that I'm done and ready to get out of the relationship,

00:41:10.473 --> 00:41:13.913
then he turns it back on and says the same things from when we were first together.

00:41:14.553 --> 00:41:16.453
And she said, feel free to use that story.

00:41:17.253 --> 00:41:19.973
Another person said, my family, parents, siblings, they love to camp.

00:41:20.173 --> 00:41:22.133
My parents had invited us to go camping with them.

00:41:22.733 --> 00:41:27.653
For a long weekend, we were gonna go camping, but my narcissistic ex -husband

00:41:27.653 --> 00:41:30.393
complained about having to go and having to spend time with them.

00:41:30.733 --> 00:41:33.433
So I told him he could stay behind, but he still chose to come.

00:41:33.913 --> 00:41:37.753
I just can't let her go on her own. And so now he's not gonna go and just say,

00:41:37.853 --> 00:41:40.493
all right, you know what, I don't wanna go, but I'll invite not wanting to go

00:41:40.493 --> 00:41:41.533
with me and I'll be present.

00:41:41.693 --> 00:41:44.553
I will make the most of this, like a mature person would do.

00:41:45.133 --> 00:41:48.573
She said he didn't help pack or anything. We have four kids and the youngest

00:41:48.573 --> 00:41:49.833
was only a few months old.

00:41:50.073 --> 00:41:53.213
I found the tents, the sleeping bags, the gear, the clothes for the kids and packed the van.

00:41:53.733 --> 00:41:57.513
My parents knew we struggled financially due to the excess spending of my husband.

00:41:57.793 --> 00:42:00.473
And so they said that they would take care of the majority of food for the trip

00:42:00.473 --> 00:42:03.573
and I could just bring some snacks to share and things that the kids would like.

00:42:04.033 --> 00:42:07.133
We get to the camping spot and I set up the majority of the camping site while

00:42:07.133 --> 00:42:09.733
tending to the kids while he doesn't do much to help.

00:42:10.253 --> 00:42:12.213
We sleep the first night and I'm just happy to be there.

00:42:12.753 --> 00:42:15.793
The next morning, it's discovered that I forgot the hot chocolate.

00:42:16.333 --> 00:42:19.393
He completely berates me in front of my parents and siblings and their spouses,

00:42:19.893 --> 00:42:21.633
because it was the one thing that he cared about.

00:42:21.833 --> 00:42:24.533
Oh my gosh, this is why I appreciate this one so much.

00:42:25.233 --> 00:42:29.133
I have a person that I'm working with and they have a narcissistic parent and then everything.

00:42:29.313 --> 00:42:34.053
Everything is always the one thing. The only thing I wanted was for you to go to this event.

00:42:34.253 --> 00:42:37.213
And then the person goes to the event and then they end up getting gas lit at the event.

00:42:37.573 --> 00:42:39.993
The only thing I ever wanted was this renovation to the house.

00:42:40.113 --> 00:42:43.333
They make the renovation to the house and then the person doesn't like it anymore

00:42:43.333 --> 00:42:45.933
and then it's on to the next, the only thing I ever wanted.

00:42:46.793 --> 00:42:50.053
So of course, this sounds like this narcissist berates about the hot chocolate

00:42:50.053 --> 00:42:53.173
because that is the one thing he cared about, his beloved hot chocolate.

00:42:53.853 --> 00:42:57.593
And she said, I didn't bring it and he assumed I did it just to make his trip miserable.

00:42:58.213 --> 00:43:01.093
She said, I had gone over our packing list with him before I packed and he never

00:43:01.093 --> 00:43:03.353
mentioned it. And she said, I don't even drink it.

00:43:03.793 --> 00:43:07.833
So it sounds like this was a revelation to understand now. He chose several

00:43:08.233 --> 00:43:11.173
kids and years into the relationship that it was now the time.

00:43:11.333 --> 00:43:15.973
Now was the time that he would declare his extreme love and adoration for hot chocolate.

00:43:16.173 --> 00:43:20.713
The one thing that he wanted that he did not mention during the packing and

00:43:20.713 --> 00:43:24.093
lo and behold she forgot it. That was the only thing that probably could have made the entire trip.

00:43:25.424 --> 00:43:29.284
She said some of my family even said to him, it's hot chocolate, chill.

00:43:29.744 --> 00:43:32.384
But he tried to convince me and my family that the whole weekend then that he

00:43:32.384 --> 00:43:35.364
was the victim, and now looks like everybody was out to make him miserable.

00:43:36.124 --> 00:43:39.024
She said this was the time I realized things like this happen in our marriage

00:43:39.024 --> 00:43:42.384
quite often. It was the catalyst for me waking up that something was completely

00:43:42.384 --> 00:43:43.784
wrong in my relationship.

00:43:44.164 --> 00:43:49.644
Okay, true confession that I am back recording the next part of this episode

00:43:49.644 --> 00:43:54.424
a few days later, and I'm looking at the video because I had to get caught up on where we left off.

00:43:54.924 --> 00:43:56.804
And ah, the beloved hot chocolate story.

00:43:57.424 --> 00:44:01.044
But I think I may be wearing the same shirt and it has not been that many days

00:44:01.044 --> 00:44:05.384
away from the last taping. So I'm not really sure what to make of that.

00:44:05.744 --> 00:44:09.864
So maybe that's just a plug to go watch the YouTube video and tell me,

00:44:09.944 --> 00:44:11.984
because I think they might be a slightly different shade of blue.

00:44:13.024 --> 00:44:15.484
But I digress. Let's get back to the episode.

00:44:16.104 --> 00:44:18.964
So the next person, I think this is a pretty big concept too.

00:44:19.024 --> 00:44:24.324
The person said, when I hold a boundary or disagree or do anything that he doesn't

00:44:24.324 --> 00:44:27.284
like, then he demands some verbal confirmation.

00:44:27.564 --> 00:44:29.464
Like, are we okay? Do you really love me?

00:44:30.024 --> 00:44:33.104
And then he'll say things like, what am I even allowed to do or say anymore?

00:44:33.764 --> 00:44:37.284
But then she said, of course, my answer is never correct and results in his

00:44:37.284 --> 00:44:41.544
monologue of all the things that I say or do wrong and what I should have said

00:44:41.544 --> 00:44:43.304
or what I should have done instead.

00:44:43.744 --> 00:44:47.844
When he tells me to care for myself yet complains and then guilts me if I want

00:44:47.844 --> 00:44:51.184
to read or work out or, heaven forbid, take a shower alone.

00:44:51.704 --> 00:44:54.604
When he finally started therapy, I mentioned things between he and our daughters

00:44:54.604 --> 00:44:57.624
that those might be good or important things to bring up.

00:44:58.064 --> 00:45:00.764
And he said he has other things to talk about because they're too little to

00:45:00.764 --> 00:45:01.704
remember any of this anyway.

00:45:02.411 --> 00:45:06.851
And he's constantly saying, that's not on me, that's you or your trauma or your

00:45:06.851 --> 00:45:10.491
exes when I discuss my concerns or my feelings.

00:45:12.031 --> 00:45:16.531
And so a couple of thoughts here, one of those where if you hold a boundary,

00:45:16.891 --> 00:45:20.291
that is gonna make the emotionally immature person, the narcissistic person,

00:45:20.371 --> 00:45:22.831
I mean anybody really, if you are good at holding your boundary,

00:45:22.831 --> 00:45:27.891
then it's gonna bring up feelings for another person out there working on their own maturity,

00:45:28.351 --> 00:45:31.011
or if they are saying, okay, you know what, I appreciate that.

00:45:31.511 --> 00:45:35.211
This is where we're so afraid of contention that we avoid tension altogether

00:45:35.211 --> 00:45:38.471
and holding the boundary is gonna cause some tension in the relationship.

00:45:38.871 --> 00:45:45.031
So when that tension occurs at that point, then he wants to get rid of his discomfort by saying,

00:45:45.451 --> 00:45:48.871
okay, I mean, I don't necessarily agree with your boundary and I think that

00:45:48.871 --> 00:45:52.451
you don't even understand what you're doing, but just tell me,

00:45:52.511 --> 00:45:54.411
are we fine? Are we good? Do you still love me?

00:45:54.951 --> 00:45:58.871
And so it's almost a really subtle way to just attack that boundary.

00:45:59.251 --> 00:46:02.451
Because if she's setting the boundary, because she really doesn't feel like

00:46:02.451 --> 00:46:05.871
we're very good right now, but then if she says, yeah, we're good,

00:46:06.071 --> 00:46:12.791
we're fine, because she's kind and he wants his discomfort eased or his anxiety lessened,

00:46:13.211 --> 00:46:17.511
and now she can also know at this point that he will go back to,

00:46:17.991 --> 00:46:20.611
okay, yeah, I don't know what that whole boundary thing was that you were doing,

00:46:20.751 --> 00:46:21.631
but you said we were fine.

00:46:22.011 --> 00:46:25.011
You said we were good. So now are you going back on it? You can just see the

00:46:25.011 --> 00:46:28.591
subtle ways that somebody can just take hold of of any conversation and then

00:46:28.591 --> 00:46:29.731
turn that into gaslighting.

00:46:29.911 --> 00:46:33.671
And here's another one that I know, I know this comes, this one can occur in.

00:46:34.591 --> 00:46:37.611
Relationships where it's more just somebody that doesn't know what they don't

00:46:37.611 --> 00:46:39.471
know or they are being more emotionally immature.

00:46:39.691 --> 00:46:46.331
So I'm not saying that this is full -blown narcissism, but in what I just read where she says that,

00:46:46.873 --> 00:46:52.233
He tells me that my answer isn't correct like what i said is not correct and

00:46:52.233 --> 00:46:56.613
now here all the things that i say or do wrong and that i should have said it this way instead.

00:46:57.033 --> 00:47:00.393
And that's one that i do here often will it would be nicer if you just said

00:47:00.393 --> 00:47:02.473
it this way and what you really should have said is.

00:47:03.133 --> 00:47:07.313
But here's the concept of where she said what she said and i say the things

00:47:07.313 --> 00:47:12.033
i say because it's the first time that i am being me in any particular given

00:47:12.033 --> 00:47:15.393
situation based on all of my life experience to bring me to that table so.

00:47:15.393 --> 00:47:17.133
Check it out. That's what I said.

00:47:17.533 --> 00:47:20.833
When somebody says, well, you should say it this way, if you find yourself going,

00:47:20.993 --> 00:47:24.673
okay, I got to remember how to say that next time then, because what that's

00:47:24.673 --> 00:47:29.353
gonna lead to is you starting to walk on eggshells because I need to make sure I say it right.

00:47:29.673 --> 00:47:33.693
And that's that's the thing where in that moment, I feel most of the time that

00:47:33.693 --> 00:47:37.173
person is trying to get rid of their discomfort of the way that maybe they handle

00:47:37.173 --> 00:47:40.933
the situation or they're not even aware that they're trying to control a situation.

00:47:41.273 --> 00:47:44.393
They're trying to control another person. I want you to do these things that

00:47:44.393 --> 00:47:47.873
I think would be best for you to do, but in reality, that will make it easier

00:47:47.873 --> 00:47:50.753
for me because that's pretty emotionally mature. It's pretty selfish.

00:47:51.393 --> 00:47:54.893
So, if somebody is trying to give you stage directions and hand you your lines

00:47:54.893 --> 00:47:57.973
in the middle of the scene or then afterward and say, I think it would have

00:47:57.973 --> 00:47:59.733
been better if you would have said this. Can you say it this way?

00:48:00.033 --> 00:48:02.473
Now, there's a difference. Here's where it is so fascinating.

00:48:02.893 --> 00:48:07.113
There's a difference of when we have a mature conversation and if and I give

00:48:07.113 --> 00:48:11.273
the example often where a couple was in my office and she said that that she

00:48:11.273 --> 00:48:14.013
would say, well, that's abuse, you're abusing me.

00:48:14.133 --> 00:48:17.073
And he would get very upset, very quickly.

00:48:17.713 --> 00:48:21.213
And then we had a tell me more four pillar conversation, assuming good intentions.

00:48:21.393 --> 00:48:24.193
I had to help him know that she wasn't trying to hurt him.

00:48:24.493 --> 00:48:28.513
And he couldn't say that's ridiculous because that is how she felt.

00:48:28.913 --> 00:48:33.393
And she had a meaning attached to what abuse was. So then that led into pillar

00:48:33.393 --> 00:48:36.633
three, questions before comments. All right, let's talk about what does that mean to you?

00:48:36.913 --> 00:48:42.473
And she'd been reading a lot about emotional abuse. And so then I couldn't have him.

00:48:43.075 --> 00:48:47.455
Go into the bunker go into a defensive mode that's my pillar for you to stay

00:48:47.455 --> 00:48:51.875
present not to say okay well i guess i'm super abusive and you can just call me whatever you want.

00:48:52.235 --> 00:48:56.715
But i had to stay present and say okay i appreciate that i can understand that

00:48:56.715 --> 00:49:02.335
that is where you're coming from that's your information or your definition of abuse and so then.

00:49:02.775 --> 00:49:04.915
We went to him and now she was.

00:49:05.675 --> 00:49:08.895
The listener in the four pillars, assuming good intentions, couldn't tell him

00:49:08.895 --> 00:49:11.995
he's wrong, tell me more, questions before comments, staying present.

00:49:12.355 --> 00:49:16.455
And he had grown up in a home where there was a lot of physical abuse and really,

00:49:16.575 --> 00:49:18.075
really intense physical abuse.

00:49:18.555 --> 00:49:21.795
So in that scenario then, they both felt heard and understood,

00:49:21.935 --> 00:49:23.855
and they were both trying to work on the relationship.

00:49:24.395 --> 00:49:27.995
And so at that point then, she's saying, man, I am so sorry,

00:49:28.135 --> 00:49:33.115
I will find another word. But here's the difference, where when he was feeling

00:49:33.115 --> 00:49:35.995
so heard and understood and knew she wasn't trying to hurt him,

00:49:36.375 --> 00:49:38.655
that at that point then he was able to say, no, I understand.

00:49:38.795 --> 00:49:41.775
I know you're not trying to hurt me with it. And if that's the phrase that you

00:49:41.775 --> 00:49:44.475
want to use, then it's a me thing.

00:49:44.615 --> 00:49:48.015
I need to learn that that is not – you don't know what my experience was like.

00:49:48.695 --> 00:49:51.395
And that's where we start to have what I almost call a nice -off.

00:49:51.555 --> 00:49:56.395
And then the fight is in leaning in toward each other and trying to meet the other person's needs.

00:49:56.395 --> 00:50:01.155
Now, I'd much rather have that kind of a dust up in a relationship than both

00:50:01.155 --> 00:50:04.415
of them never having the tools or even trying to get outside of their own ego

00:50:04.415 --> 00:50:05.675
and feel heard or understood.

00:50:06.335 --> 00:50:09.515
But if you're someone who is in a relationship where the other person is basically

00:50:09.515 --> 00:50:13.215
handing you your lines after, if you've ever been in a play, I never really was.

00:50:13.335 --> 00:50:16.255
I played a cha -cha -cha the lion, I think in like first grade.

00:50:16.555 --> 00:50:18.555
I don't really remember other than my parents telling me that.

00:50:19.115 --> 00:50:23.175
But I've had kids that have been in plays and then when they,

00:50:23.435 --> 00:50:26.855
after a show and the director has notes. I think that's always really fascinating.

00:50:27.654 --> 00:50:31.294
But that's not what we want in a marriage. It's like, hey, let's go over how

00:50:31.294 --> 00:50:32.294
you handled that conversation.

00:50:32.434 --> 00:50:35.194
So I think you could have done it better because I didn't really like the way

00:50:35.194 --> 00:50:36.134
that you said that thing.

00:50:36.674 --> 00:50:40.254
And so next time I would like for you to do it different. Now I may change my

00:50:40.254 --> 00:50:43.114
mind in that moment as well, so that you'll be totally confused,

00:50:43.214 --> 00:50:45.714
which again, leads to somebody feeling like they're walking on eggshells.

00:50:45.754 --> 00:50:49.134
So if somebody is trying to tell you what to say again, or what to think or

00:50:49.134 --> 00:50:51.174
feel, then that really is more of a them issue.

00:50:51.214 --> 00:50:54.034
You can take that data in if there's anything productive there.

00:50:54.114 --> 00:50:58.074
Maybe that is some good feedback, but ultimately that's something for you to

00:50:58.074 --> 00:51:02.274
then see if it is something that you want to integrate into your your life.

00:51:02.674 --> 00:51:06.514
This one will break your heart. The person said he was anonymously,

00:51:06.834 --> 00:51:12.534
but hearing some devastating news from some family friends that one of the spouses

00:51:12.534 --> 00:51:14.574
has a very rare and serious cancer.

00:51:15.394 --> 00:51:19.474
My husband at that point said, you know, it got me thinking.

00:51:19.614 --> 00:51:23.314
I really wouldn't care if you died. I mean, I would feel bad for our kids not

00:51:23.314 --> 00:51:25.634
having a mom, but you know what? it really wouldn't bother me.

00:51:26.234 --> 00:51:28.134
And she said, I told him, you really didn't have to tell me that.

00:51:28.434 --> 00:51:30.954
That was probably one of the most hurtful things anybody has ever said to me.

00:51:31.454 --> 00:51:34.254
And he said, hey, I just wanted to know, I just wanted you to know where I was

00:51:34.254 --> 00:51:39.434
at mentally, because she said we're struggling at making it work because she had filed for divorce.

00:51:40.114 --> 00:51:41.714
And then she said that that even

00:51:41.714 --> 00:51:44.994
came after what she had thought were some breakthroughs in counseling.

00:51:45.694 --> 00:51:49.354
And then it came up again and again, and he continued to hold fast to it.

00:51:49.934 --> 00:51:52.874
Somebody in the group said, what a turd. And the other person said,

00:51:52.914 --> 00:51:54.754
boy, That's a pretty generous description.

00:51:55.694 --> 00:51:58.514
There's a person that said there's one thing, and this is what I think we could

00:51:58.514 --> 00:51:59.734
base an entire episode on.

00:51:59.894 --> 00:52:02.014
She said, there's one thing that I can truly say has happened,

00:52:02.394 --> 00:52:05.814
I would say thousands of times in our 20 plus years of marriage,

00:52:05.854 --> 00:52:07.894
in arguments and conversations and interactions,

00:52:08.484 --> 00:52:13.194
no matter how innocent or volatile, he would regularly tell me how I feel,

00:52:13.574 --> 00:52:17.414
why I feel that way, and or what I need to do about those feelings.

00:52:17.634 --> 00:52:20.694
She said one of my craziest examples was when he came home one day from work,

00:52:21.164 --> 00:52:24.354
and I was sitting on the couch. I was just relaxing and just being.

00:52:24.974 --> 00:52:28.914
She said I noticed him literally tiptoeing around the room, looking at me concerned

00:52:28.914 --> 00:52:32.134
until finally I broke and said, what's going on?

00:52:32.414 --> 00:52:36.334
And he replied, I know you're not mad. And I said, what?

00:52:36.434 --> 00:52:40.034
I'm not mad. I'm just here enjoying the couch. And he said, no,

00:52:40.174 --> 00:52:44.614
I know you're mad at me and I want you to know, I know what I need to do to make it better.

00:52:45.254 --> 00:52:48.034
She said, I started to get irritated, but then I thought, am I mad?

00:52:48.434 --> 00:52:53.914
No, I'm not. So I said, I'm really not mad. I'm not sure what I have to be mad about.

00:52:54.394 --> 00:52:57.014
Did you do something that you think I would be mad at you for?" And he said,

00:52:57.254 --> 00:52:58.674
No, but I don't believe you.

00:52:59.324 --> 00:53:03.644
And then I said, I wasn't mad, but I'm kind of starting to become mad.

00:53:04.044 --> 00:53:07.024
And then he responded, see, I knew it. I knew I knew you were mad.

00:53:07.584 --> 00:53:10.784
She said, it's so crazy making, and you're welcome to use this.

00:53:11.264 --> 00:53:14.504
So here's somebody just being and doing. I love how she says enjoying the couch.

00:53:14.624 --> 00:53:16.464
That is a very present moment right there.

00:53:17.024 --> 00:53:20.504
And then he comes in. He says, oh, geez, OK, I know you're mad.

00:53:21.024 --> 00:53:24.484
I know you're mad. And at that point, I love where she said, am I checking in?

00:53:24.524 --> 00:53:28.744
I'm not. So, then the challenge, the differentiation challenge at that point

00:53:28.744 --> 00:53:32.164
becomes to notice the discomfort of the gas lighting,

00:53:32.584 --> 00:53:36.944
getting a little warm, and then being able to continue to stay calm and present

00:53:36.944 --> 00:53:40.284
because I'm not mad, but I'm noticing, I'm noticing I maybe am starting to get

00:53:40.284 --> 00:53:42.424
angry, but that's a me thing.

00:53:42.804 --> 00:53:47.644
And so, now I'm going to invite the potential to get angry to come with me while

00:53:47.644 --> 00:53:51.684
I go for a walk out in the fresh air because I don't have to defend myself and

00:53:51.684 --> 00:53:55.424
I don't even have to break down his point of view or his reality.

00:53:55.924 --> 00:53:59.164
And that one had a few people say, yeah, I could have written that.

00:53:59.484 --> 00:54:00.164
Yeah, that happened to me.

00:54:00.664 --> 00:54:04.344
Somebody else saying, mine tells me what I think, how I feel, what I need.

00:54:04.824 --> 00:54:07.444
And she said, I've tried telling him directly, what I need right now is for

00:54:07.444 --> 00:54:09.444
you to listen or maybe even give me a hug.

00:54:09.904 --> 00:54:12.704
Perhaps something at work and he would say, nope, that's not what you need.

00:54:12.824 --> 00:54:17.364
What you need is, and she said, typically, apparently I needed a long lecture.

00:54:18.292 --> 00:54:22.632
Another person talks about the concept of the medical exit or confabulation,

00:54:22.792 --> 00:54:26.292
she said, or just a contrived way of avoiding blame or wanting me to feel sorry

00:54:26.292 --> 00:54:29.752
for him and let him off the hook, but she said he had promised not to drink anymore.

00:54:30.432 --> 00:54:33.172
And I'm assuming we're talking alcohol, not fluids of any sorts.

00:54:33.772 --> 00:54:36.512
She said, whenever I would find him to be too drunk to cover up,

00:54:36.572 --> 00:54:39.612
the next day he would deny being drunk and said he was sleepless.

00:54:39.872 --> 00:54:42.512
He was kind of delirious because he had found out that a coworker had passed away.

00:54:43.132 --> 00:54:46.452
She said, I don't know how many coworkers passed away over the years,

00:54:46.572 --> 00:54:49.152
but it was an unbelievable amount looking back at it now.

00:54:49.432 --> 00:54:53.912
I want to laugh, but I feel like that's because I mean, I hear this one often

00:54:53.912 --> 00:54:56.632
and sometimes I have, here's the train of thought.

00:54:56.812 --> 00:54:59.612
When my kids were little and they would play together and there,

00:54:59.752 --> 00:55:03.092
if we talk about this often, we joke that my oldest Alex was playing with the

00:55:03.092 --> 00:55:06.772
next down McKinley and they were playing with some dolls and I was listening

00:55:06.772 --> 00:55:09.532
from the other room and then I think one of them said,

00:55:09.712 --> 00:55:11.952
oh, where's your mom? And she's like, she died.

00:55:12.072 --> 00:55:16.452
And then And the other person, the other kid said, again, and I just,

00:55:16.572 --> 00:55:21.132
to this day, we laugh about it because they were, they don't really remember what, what led to that.

00:55:21.212 --> 00:55:24.492
Because again, the child therapist at one point in me wants to say,

00:55:24.932 --> 00:55:28.772
oh, what, what were they processing? You know, what did they see or what they witnessed?

00:55:29.132 --> 00:55:31.332
But I just think that was interesting because since that time,

00:55:31.332 --> 00:55:35.752
I'll have people bring up stories like this and I've sat in where somebody has

00:55:35.752 --> 00:55:39.632
brought something up and then their spouses tried to do a nice four -pillar conversation and say,

00:55:40.152 --> 00:55:45.252
Okay, so is this the aunt that I thought had passed away a few years ago?

00:55:45.632 --> 00:55:48.872
And sometimes you'll just look at the emotionally immature, narcissistic person,

00:55:48.972 --> 00:55:52.672
just stare straight ahead, and here we go. They're going to wait this one out.

00:55:53.192 --> 00:55:56.712
Until finally their spouse says, Okay, I guess maybe I'm wrong.

00:55:57.712 --> 00:56:00.532
Because this is maybe just a made -up excuse, but I don't know,

00:56:00.612 --> 00:56:03.392
or maybe this person worked at, I can't even pull a funny joke right now,

00:56:03.512 --> 00:56:05.732
where lots of co -workers would die.

00:56:05.732 --> 00:56:09.692
Maybe this person that's writing this is in their mid to late 90s and they work,

00:56:09.812 --> 00:56:14.612
the husband works at a geriatric end -of -life facility, hospice care, something like that.

00:56:15.340 --> 00:56:19.500
But then she said, I even asked some co -workers about some of the people initially

00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:21.880
at events, but they didn't know what I was talking about.

00:56:22.520 --> 00:56:25.500
She said, talk about crazy making. It was so confusing back when I was trying

00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:29.620
to make it work. And here's the key where I believed him, because why wouldn't you?

00:56:30.180 --> 00:56:34.060
People believe the emotionally immature, the narcissists until they actually

00:56:34.060 --> 00:56:36.980
have the awareness of the information and they don't.

00:56:37.140 --> 00:56:40.360
I never wanted to start getting into the realm of politics, but I've worked

00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:44.740
with politicians, people that have been family members to politicians at various

00:56:44.740 --> 00:56:46.560
levels. some at pretty large levels.

00:56:47.300 --> 00:56:51.300
And what's fascinating is a lot of times I have worked with family members who

00:56:51.300 --> 00:56:56.400
are aware of the politician in their family who says all kinds of things,

00:56:56.460 --> 00:56:57.580
whatever it is in that moment,

00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:02.180
to kind of get the people around them excited or to try to make those people

00:57:02.180 --> 00:57:03.460
feel heard or seen or understood.

00:57:03.860 --> 00:57:05.660
And now they move on to the next crowd.

00:57:06.160 --> 00:57:09.000
And so when the person gets elevated and they get in more positions,

00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:13.100
they will say things to their constituents and their constituents think,

00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:17.780
okay, this person would not be in this position if they weren't telling the truth.

00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:21.740
So then that's where you start to see different conspiracy theories come up.

00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:26.560
You know, if this politician said, I don't know, we'll give a horrible example,

00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:31.060
but the sky is blue when they are speaking at one state and they go to the next

00:57:31.060 --> 00:57:35.060
state and they say, what I love about your state is how the sky is always yellow.

00:57:35.700 --> 00:57:39.380
And then people are saying, okay, rather than saying that doesn't make any sense,

00:57:39.640 --> 00:57:42.100
they're saying this person is in this position of authority.

00:57:42.300 --> 00:57:43.220
Of course they wouldn't lie.

00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:46.920
Of course, they couldn't be narcissistic. So what are they trying to convey?

00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:48.540
What's the meaning here?

00:57:49.100 --> 00:57:51.200
Yellow, that's a color. Blue is a color.

00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:55.520
Yellow has more letters than blue. So there must be some, some,

00:57:55.640 --> 00:57:56.880
they must be talking in a code.

00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.820
No, they're pretty emotionally immature or narcissistic. And then if you start

00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:04.840
to look at all the patterns, they don't have any consistency with their message

00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:06.660
or their emotions or that sort of thing.

00:58:07.020 --> 00:58:10.360
So that one's just really fascinating and part of how deep the crazy making

00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:15.660
can get. It can be, I've had 50 different people pass away in the workplace,

00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:19.840
and then you go to the workplace and there they all are, back from the dead, apparently.

00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:23.100
She actually had a little bit extra on this one. She said, when I'd had enough

00:58:23.100 --> 00:58:26.520
the second and final time, he said, wait, wait, wait, I have to confess to you.

00:58:27.142 --> 00:58:31.062
This is all because of my abuse as a child. And she said, I don't want to be

00:58:31.062 --> 00:58:34.262
cold, but I don't know whether to believe him after all the other things that

00:58:34.262 --> 00:58:35.542
I found out not to be true.

00:58:36.062 --> 00:58:39.782
She said, I think these things were ways to make himself a victim so that I

00:58:39.782 --> 00:58:41.622
would feel sorry for him and excuse the behavior.

00:58:41.962 --> 00:58:44.702
And you can share this anonymously. And we did. And you're right.

00:58:44.822 --> 00:58:47.142
And I think it is. It's a childhood defense mechanism.

00:58:47.322 --> 00:58:50.882
Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism to if that person only really felt

00:58:50.882 --> 00:58:55.682
seen or understood when they had somebody giving them empathy or oh man that

00:58:55.682 --> 00:58:59.482
sounds really hard and all of a sudden that person whoo I feel good I got out of that jam and.

00:59:00.022 --> 00:59:02.622
It's not like they're thinking I gotta keep track of how many people have passed

00:59:02.622 --> 00:59:06.182
away I have to keep track of what color I said the sky was at the last place

00:59:06.182 --> 00:59:09.342
that I was no they just got out Of that moment and they're on to the next one

00:59:09.342 --> 00:59:13.002
riding bikes probably rode a bike all the way to the next place but then the

00:59:13.002 --> 00:59:14.322
people that are left in the

00:59:14.722 --> 00:59:19.722
Left in that in that situation are then trying to process and make sense of something because they

00:59:20.122 --> 00:59:22.202
Assume that this person is being honest and open.

00:59:22.442 --> 00:59:28.802
Okay, let's let's do this I'm looking at I'm on note page 15 and there's another

00:59:28.802 --> 00:59:31.322
10 more pages to go of examples.

00:59:31.822 --> 00:59:36.962
So I think that is something that I don't want to skimp on and I don't want

00:59:36.962 --> 00:59:38.962
this to be a two -hour episode either.

00:59:39.062 --> 00:59:42.202
So we're almost at an hour. Let's call this one a day. It is part one.

00:59:42.582 --> 00:59:46.042
I promise you part two will be soon, hopefully next week.

00:59:46.162 --> 00:59:48.802
I have a bonus episode coming up that if you listen this long,

00:59:48.822 --> 00:59:53.542
I think that you'll appreciate. I have an interview with somebody that is out

00:59:53.542 --> 00:59:57.562
of their narcissistic marriage and they're really starting to open up and talk

00:59:57.562 --> 00:59:58.842
about what their experience was.

00:59:59.102 --> 01:00:03.622
If you hear this episode and then the next week you have your own death by a

01:00:03.622 --> 01:00:07.342
thousand cuts examples, I would love it if you would send those to contact at

01:00:07.342 --> 01:00:13.862
tonyoverbay .com and let me get some on next week's part two episode that are from you,

01:00:14.082 --> 01:00:16.222
the listeners who maybe have never written anything down.

01:00:16.222 --> 01:00:20.622
There's maybe that call to action is take a moment and just jot something down

01:00:20.622 --> 01:00:24.442
and if you want to have it read and that might feel liberating or freeing or

01:00:24.442 --> 01:00:28.002
if the death by a thousand cuts episodes have had an impact on you,

01:00:28.082 --> 01:00:31.582
I would love to hear hear that and I could read some of those as well because

01:00:31.582 --> 01:00:37.042
I really appreciate the feedback and these episodes by far I know get shared

01:00:37.042 --> 01:00:41.262
more than most and and really do help people start to feel like they are not

01:00:41.262 --> 01:00:42.862
they are not crazy. they're not alone.

01:00:43.442 --> 01:00:47.362
So thank you everybody. I'll see you on the bonus episode coming up later this

01:00:47.362 --> 01:00:49.962
week and I'll see you next time on waking up the narcissism.

01:00:49.840 --> 01:01:01.766
Music.