Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 95 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and
welcome to the sixth installment, I think, of the Waking Up to Narcissism Death
by a Thousand Cuts series.
And I'll just keep it brief so we can get right to the episode.
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And that would be wonderful. So let's get to today's episode.
I was recently talking with a client and this
is somebody who has on occasion stopped themselves when they have started to
describe how ancient somebody they know is as the beginning of the word 50 as
in their late 50s Starts to come out of their mouth as they start to think I
don't really know how old Tony is and I am 53 54 later this month.
Thank you very much And since that time and again, I love humor and I think
that humor absolutely plays a wonderful role in therapy This person likes to
make the hey, what was it like before cars and refrigeration kind of jokes?
But recently, I think that this person thought they were being funny,
but they asked me if I had ever been a fan of the Choose Your Own Adventure computer games.
And so I said, Oh, on the contrary, I can one up that.
I guess said like a true formerly emotionally immature person.
I used to have Choose Your Own Adventure books.
Where you get to the end of page three and then if it
presents you with a choice to go on an adventure
with a friend or steal their backpack if you
go on the adventure you turn to page four and if you want to take their backpack
it says turn to page 153 which you know if it's going to go that far that you're
going to end up you're going to take their stuff and they're going to punch
your lights out in the bookends or maybe they give you the backpack and they
say you must need it or something but that's not why you want to get a choose
your own adventure book.
But today, I want to let you choose your own adventure, but first,
let's get you warmed up and choose your own beginning to this incredible Death
by a Thousand Cuts episode.
Because I think as you start to hear the stories today, you really can begin,
even if it's only in your own mind or your thoughts or your hopes or your dreams,
to pick a new adventure yourself in your own life.
And hopefully it's one where you start to recognize that you really don't deserve
to to be controlled and you are a human being, not a human doing,
and you do have your own thoughts and opinions and feelings and emotions and
those are wonderful things and that in a healthy relationship,
then we're learning how to grow interdependently,
differentiated from your partner and you become two incredible people who now
can have shared experiences and you're choosing into the relationship,
not trying to control anybody in the relationship or be controlled in the relationship.
So with that said, here's the warmup. We're going to start with a humorous opening
and I turned to my good friend chat GPT and created a movie trailer that begins
once again with my very favorite phrase in a world.
So I'm going to read that, but I didn't give chat GPT the exact instructions.
I said that it was a narrative only movie trailer, so they did give me some
screen directions or some audio sound effects that should be there,
which I do not have. So I will, I will call those out as well.
So it says in a dramatic movie trailer voice. So let me do my best.
In a world where relationships can be as sharp as a razor, one podcast dares
to expose the subtle slices of life.
It's supposed to have a knife sharpening sound effect, which would have been really nice right now.
Introducing death by a thousand cuts, when love feels less like cupids arrow
and more like a swarm of paper cuts.
And then this is where I think it gets pretty cheesy, you're supposed to hear a sound effect of ouch.
Okay, I am pulling the plug, pulling the ripcord on the humorous choose your
own example episode because this is a pretty sensitive topic.
I have a poem that I want to read that I think might show more of the creative
choice or how you choose your own adventure through creativity and expression.
But before we do that too, let me share another version.
Maybe that first one was A, here's B, and then we'll go the poem is going to
be door behind door number three or option C.
So, B, or door number two, is I think it's important to note that so many people
that find themselves identifying with these Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes,
this is somebody who, the pathologically kind person, who is on a quest,
and it is a valiant quest because in a healthy relationship,
it is a quest that can really help people grow together, closer,
and help you figure things out about yourself.
But it is that concept where you are driving yourself crazy trying to make sense
of the behaviors of somebody who just does not make sense, especially with any amount of consistency.
Because remember that emotional or that emotionally immature or narcissistic
person, they are simply reacting to that very moment.
And in that moment, they are viewing the interaction with a way to get rid of their discomfort,
to then take a one -up position, to feel like they exist because they have a
negative interaction with somebody where they can now take that one -up position
or they can assume a victim mentality and have you come rescue them.
But it doesn't matter in that scenario if you are wrong or they are right.
It's regardless of the situation and how crazy their excuses might sound that
the pathologically kind person, be it the man or the woman in this scenario.
That the more that they try to figure out and seek clarification and then tries
to then say, okay, I'm trying to put all these pieces together so I can do what
is best for our relationship or for the kids or the family,
but then it just is a never -ending moving target.
I got permission to share, let's just call her Emily, it's not her name,
but she truly exemplified I guess what I would call this pathological kindness
because she was in a relationship with somebody that I think could best be described
as highly emotionally immature, displaying.
Pretty consistent narcissistic traits and tendencies and her goal was continually to try to figure out.
I wanna understand what call a mic so emily wants to understand my can she come
in can just wanting to lay out all of the data we would review the game film
and i saw those inconsistencies pretty.
Pretty clearly but what is fascinating about the way that are human brain works
it's this concept called epiphany where we look for patterns it's a survival instinct.
If her ancestors saw the grass moving around in the ground, we would then say,
okay, the pattern typically is if grass is moving and I don't see anything there,
that there's probably a snake in that grass and it is going to jump out and get me.
So I noticed that pattern, it helps me make sense of things and now I can make
a educated decision and I will probably leave the area.
Or if I'm hunting for food, then I'm getting my killing stick ready and we're
about to have snake for dinner.
I've watched a lot of Naked and Afraid to be fair. But in that scenario,
though, our own brain looks for those patterns and then says,
okay, this helps me. I can understand.
I see the pattern. I see the grass moving. It must be a snake.
I'm going to prepare myself.
And all of a sudden, the person says, I don't even know why you call that grass.
Really? You think that's grass? Or I didn't see anything moving.
So in that scenario, the more that Emily tried to understand,
believing that if she could just figure this out, it would make the relationship
better, then the more crazy that she felt.
And a couple of examples that Mike would often make disparaging comments about
how she managed their finances, which she had no desire to manage the finances,
but it gave him an opportunity to continually criticize,
monitor, but then gaslight when he would make purchases.
And so when she would try to even discuss spending habits or try to find common
ground and then make sense, try to find the patterns in their spending,
or just try to see what he said last time and how does that match up?" Then
he would shift the blame immediately, accusing her then of being controlling,
and she just can't enjoy life.
Emily, seeking clarity, would end up feeling more bewildered after every single conversation.
Another example from that same couple, Emily approached Mike about,
quite frankly, his tendency to invalidate her feelings, as in most all of them.
And then, shocking, he responded by accusing her of overreacting and being overly emotional,
which only then served to make her then question her own perceptions and then
want to express her feelings even more, but now knowing and feeling completely
unsafe that if she shared those feelings she would be told that she's wrong
and that those are the wrong feelings to have or she shouldn't look at it that way.
And then the last example was a time where Emily was really excited about a
potential job opportunity and so what was Mike's first reaction?
How is this gonna impact or affect him? No curiosity.
So he criticized the job's impact on their schedule instead of share in her excitement.
And so then she she thought, okay this I can understand and I know this pattern
so I want to have this conversation.
So then she expressed hurt over his lack of support and then he turned it around
and said the all too familiar and very unproductive line that she couldn't take
any form of criticism and that she was being too sensitive.
So in each one of those situations, Mike would leave the conversation without
really any apparent concern, but she would be left feeling absolutely confused,
questioning her own reality, and then feeling more and more isolated in her experiences.
So these are examples of those cuts because if you told somebody about each
one of these on their own or maybe even all together, the person would say,
well, okay, maybe were you being a little too sensitive?
Or, well, maybe he's having a rough day too. And there we have our Switzerland friends.
And it was interesting because the more that Emily would come in and process
these things, she would say, OK, but I'm sure he's frustrated about this,
too, or he's struggling, too.
And that's where I would almost feel bad of saying, oh, he's on a bike ride.
He he got rid of that discomfort.
You feel you're left feeling like what just happened and it must be me and I need to figure this out.
And he feels good and he wants to know what's for dinner or are we going to
have sex later that night? Because he feels good.
And we already had that conversation. Now, if you bring it up,
well, you're holding on to the past.
So those are those examples of the cuts. Scratch option A, the humorous movie trailer.
So we've got, is this where you're at? Is this the choose your own adventure
where, okay, I need to just start recognizing more things or then let's get to this next option.
Let me now get to the heart of the episode today. And I want you to know,
I want to model that part of the human experience is you can have seriousness, you can have laughter.
It's called whole object relations. You can laugh, you can cry,
you can be frustrated, you can be happy, and you can do all of those things
within the same setting, within a situation where you're watching a movie or
having a good conversation with a friend.
You can experience all the emotions, because too often, the emotionally immature
go to all or nothing, black or white.
So admittedly, that was as much of a groaner as that movie trailer was.
It was a little bit intentional because this poem is pretty incredible.
So, but now let's really get into the episode with a poem by a listener who
gave permission for me to share, and they were kind and said that the podcast
has been a lifesaver, and I honestly don't think that they mean the candy.
And yes, again, my secondary emotion of humor worked its way in there because
when you hear this poem, I really do think it's going to bring some really big
emotions. Here's the poem. you,
In the days of our bright beginning, love's embrace felt so free and so winning.
Eyes sparkled with stars, hearts skipped a beat, and a dance so intense, so beautifully sweet.
Yet as time unfurled its relentless march, subtle slashes began,
leaving the faintest arch.
A remark here, a glance there, so sly, so discreet, hidden neath laughter, where joy and pain meet.
With each fleeting day more cuts would appear, invisible wounds bringing shadow
and tear. No one could see them, not family, not friend.
And as I withered and waned, starting to bend, like a leaf in the wind,
I felt fragile and torn from countless small cuts silently born.
I began to fade, my strength starting to wane, drowning in silence, suffocated by pain.
But as darkness encroached and hope seemed to die, a gentle soul noticed hearing
my silent cry, then saw just one cut and started to mend with a touch so kind a message they'd send.
Though I was near broken, their care sparked a flame, whispering to me life
wasn't just pain and shame.
Maybe just maybe with love's healing art, I
could find my way back and make a fresh start." So just a such a powerful poem
that talks about the concept of how things can go from seemingly almost bliss
to then slowly but surely the eroding of one's sense of self through the death by a thousand cuts.
If you're just new to the podcast, what is the Death by a Thousand Cuts series about?
A lot of listeners have reached out sharing that they really struggle to explain
the challenges in their relationships because it's not the in -your -face kind of abuse.
You know, it's not always physical, it isn't people always being hit or even loud shouting.
It's something that is far more sneaky, more hidden, and you can refer to it
often as covert abuse. So it's.
Being slowly cut a thousand times and just
starting to slowly bleed out or even the pain of the cuts
and so each cut might seem small over time they pile up and those start to cause
really deep emotional scars and I have the having the content out there now
I don't see this as much but when I would initially start working with people
that are in these relationships with emotionally immature narcissistic people.
They would almost, they would, they would hesitate to start explaining what
things were like in their marriage
because it wouldn't ever sound like the absolute yelling or screaming,
although certainly that comes into play often, or the physical abuse,
or it was just a constant not being seen, not being understood,
not being cared about, their needs being put at the bottom of the pile.
And just over time, people starting to just feel like they were going crazy.
And I noticed over the years that you would just hear the similar patterns or
even the similar things over and over again and often just being able to express that to a client,
you can see them get emotional because they typically felt like they were going
crazy or that these things weren't a big deal or that I would even say,
well, it doesn't sound so bad.
But really, the concept of covert abuse is so challenging, especially to put
your finger on compared to overt abuse because it's more like this gradual fog
that just kind of slowly rolls in because it's so subtle.
And then before you know it, you really can't see more than your hand in front of your face.
And so, then imagine trying to explain why you're hurting when there's no clear
bruise or shout to point to, because that is the uphill battle that so many
people face when they're dealing with covert narcissistic abuse or extreme emotional immaturity.
And I won't get into it today because I want to get to – we have a lot of good
examples. but then trying to explain it to somebody else.
And so often, the other person, this is where we talk about,
this is the time where we don't need those Switzerland friends,
but where you hear often that, well, at least he doesn't do this,
or at least she's not doing this, but that's that person trying to help you.
I can understand that, but more trying to get out of their own discomfort of,
or trying to let you know, think of something you've never thought about,
which you've thought about all of those things, I guarantee.
And if you think it's always interesting to.
Share the origin of the death by a thousand cuts concept. If you look back in
history, death by a thousand cuts was a form of torture and execution,
used, I found some links directly to ancient China, but it meant a slow and
painful death, while the victim
suffered from numerous small wounds until they eventually succumbed.
So then again, in the context of the discussions around this topic,
it symbolizes this whole cumulative harm and pain of so many seemingly small,
minor, hurtful actions or words, and that eventually leads to large,
significant emotional pain.
Withdrawal, when you look at the concept of the body keeps the score,
it can really lead to physical manifestations of the emotional pain as well.
And just real quick, we'll touch on, there are these different types of abuse
in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships.
You've got psychological abuse, where it is when somebody messes with your mind.
I mean, it's things like gaslighting, when people make you doubt your own memories or your own judgment.
If your spouse is constantly telling you that you're overreacting or you're
imagining things every time that you feel hurt by their actions.
There's emotional abuse, which is constant criticism, belittling, humiliation.
And if somebody is continually trying to point out your flaws or in front of
people or make you feel small and worthless, maybe not even in front of people.
And again, these are some of the things that really break my heart because I
will say all day that there really isn't a need at all in a relationship to
point out someone's what you think their flaws are.
You can ask them, you can be curious, but if you really look at the concept
of differentiation, why does that bother you?
You it's a you issue. Now that doesn't mean that the other person may not want
to improve or change, but that's up to them.
And so we can bring things to someone's awareness. But sometimes what people
do, oftentimes what people do, and the reaction that maybe I have to that,
again, as a me thing, why do I feel the need to control their behavior when they do a certain thing?
If it bothers me, there's a lot of bothering me, why do I feel the need to control it?
Who made me the owner of that person's experience or their emotions?
So, I just think that is just so important to recognize. That's part of that emotional abuse.
We got financial abuse where one partner will control all the finances or limits
the other person's access.
And I know that there's a spectrum of all of these things because I know that
there are often people, I will talk to people that will say,
I don't want to be in charge of all the finances.
But then when I put out an emotional bid and say I would like help with this,
there's so much wrapped up in there where then let's just say it's the wife
who handles the finances and then she says, I don't want to keep doing this.
And so she says, I'd like help from the husband.
But then she realizes that, okay, he's going to question everything I do and
I do the things I do because I have to because I don't have any support when
it comes to buying school clothes for the kids or food or any of these kind of things.
Or the guy may not want to confront that because he doesn't want to really know.
He wants to be able to say she's overspending rather than seeing his own part in it.
Or maybe that is something that
makes him feel less than when it comes to his job or how much he makes.
So there's so much more there that when you have the right tools that I would
hope that people could have a better mature conversation around that.
There's religious abuse where people use religion or spiritual beliefs to control or belittle,
where somebody will then, I used to call it pulling the Holy Ghost card,
where somebody feels an impression or they have a revelation of something that
the partner needs to do, or something that they feel that.
Their partner needs to join them on because it's their revelation.
And then there's sexual abuse, and especially by coercion, where one partner
manipulates or pressures the other person into sex without clear consent,
or the other person, the spouse, feels like,
if I don't do this, there is going to be a cost because the spouse will shut
down, become emotionally withdrawn,
will make it difficult on the spouse who's not wanting to have sex.
And so this is where you get a lot of the guilt trips of into sex.
If you love me, you would, or don't you know how much pain I'm in or those kind
of things. And those are all immature responses or reactions.
So each type of these, each type of this abuse creates its own set of wounds,
but they have one thing in common.
They erode a person's sense of self -worth and autonomy. And that is not okay
in a relationship. You can have love or control in an adult relationship.
Remember just because the scars aren't always visible, it doesn't mean that they aren't there.
Most of these have come from the private women's Facebook group.
And if somebody's interested in becoming a part of, please reach out.
The men's group, it's starting to sound like a broken record,
but I love the fact that this is, these episodes are evergreen.
So at some point we will be talking about the men's group. I think that we're
so close now and we've got enough people that are interested.
So reach out, please. But this comes from the women's group and everything has been okay to share.
And some of the things will be changed, names and situations change to protect the innocent.
And I'm going to just read some of these. I'll, I'll comment on many,
but maybe not on all because there's a lot and I just want to be able to get
the content out there and there are some that I definitely want to comment on.
The first person said, my ex would remind me at times that I didn't need to
finish all the food on my plate,
that I could throw away the Christmas goodies that neighbors would deliver that
he only ate till he was full because it was uncomfortable if he ate more than
that with the covert message being that I should do the same.
This is the part where I think so often that it is that covert message of control
or, you should probably stop eating now, because what does that convey?
That, hey, I think you're eating too much. I don't like the way that you maybe
look or the things that you're eating or how you do that.
And then she eventually said that she found Google searches for how to motivate
your wife to lose weight.
And she said this was mostly during the couple of years after we'd had our sixth
child and that she had ate pretty healthy, but her body just wouldn't let go
of those last 20 pounds of baby weight, which I can't even imagine.
And for him to then look for ways to motivate his wife instead of being grateful
and curious, because I'm not sure if he, what he looked like after his fifth
or sixth child, but it sounds like he knew what she should look like after hers.
But he liked to elevate himself by putting me down. She said he cared about
and valued his body by lifting weights all winter long, being fit.
And she said that it, that meant to him that she obviously did not value her
body again, even though it has carried human beings in it through birth, which is amazing.
She said, nevermind the actual facts. I went on walks, I went on bike rides with all of our kids.
I played basketball, volleyball, things like that a few months a year.
But because my body didn't look how he wanted it to, again, if we go back to
the beginning, kind of a him issue, she said it was a fair game to assume the
good in himself and make negative assumptions about me.
When I finally said I wanted to make peace with my body, he was incredibly hurt and offended.
His words, I make my body attractive because it's a gift to you.
Don't you want to do the same for me?" At the time, she said it was all so hurtful.
She said, now, I just want to insert a big eye roll after each of these sentences,
and you're welcome to share.
And then the thing that I think is so fascinating is that they're on pretty
much every comment that I'm going to read people would say, this is so familiar.
I experienced this as well.
And somebody commented and said, you know, it just makes me so sad that so many
women do get treated this way.
And she said, he sounds like a guy who may have grown up on pornography and
women became objects to use and consume.
Only here to appease his lust, she said she's glad to hear that this now he's
an ex, and that she now sees how stupid that really was.
And as a guy who, me, who helps people overcome turning to unhealthy coping
mechanisms, again a big part of my practice is helping people turn away from
pornography or food or their phones or any of the unhealthy coping mechanisms.
I don't think I say it often enough on this Waking Up to Narcissism podcast.
My whole platform of overcoming unhealthy coping mechanisms is filling these,
what I call, voids in your life. So if I'm working with somebody,
then it's a coping mechanism.
So how are you doing in your marriage? How are you doing in your parenting?
How are you doing in your faith, your health and your career?
And when you start to get those things dialed in, then that desire to turn to
the unhealthy coping mechanisms does not become as strong.
Absolutely is something that if somebody is turning to something like porn,
then there are these voids that are in their life.
And if they were looking at porn from an early age, then the data has been there
for quite a while. that means that that person has been sexualized young.
And so then it's often the case that women become objects.
So I think that's just something that maybe I need to cover on a future episode.
Another person said that hers was her ex was covert.
And she said it was so much harder to make sense of when you're in it.
She said he always had plausible deniability. And she said if I called him out
on it, he could easily shift it to I had heard it wrong, or I'd taken things
the wrong way, or he just wasn't good with words and that that wasn't his intention.
She said, even though I'm confident that it was.
And then a couple of other people said that, yeah, that wasn't my intent was
something that they heard often.
And she said that a covert narcissist
or emotionally immature person can just make you feel so insane.
Somebody else said, I can just relate to the cut share to here.
And in all the episodes, she said, my favorite is we couldn't have a cat or
dog because my husband was severely allergic.
So last year, he finally had a full allergy panel done and he's allergic to
almost everything except cats and dogs, not even a little sensitive to critters.
She said, I recently moved into my own apartment and I got animals and they
bring me and my kids so much joy. Feel free to use the story.
Then another person said, we talked about getting a dog, what kind and what timing would be good.
And she said, he surprised me by getting a dog at the specific timing that we
decided would not be good. and the one specific breed I said I did not want.
But she said I felt forced to act happy and grateful for the gift.
The dog was a gift to me. So I was thinking I would name it.
And he vetoed at least five names before there was one that I could actually use.
Years later, when a family friend got a dog, he suggested some of the names
that he had vetoed from me, saying how much he's always liked those names.
And it's interesting, I know we've got so much content to get to,
you could break down almost any of these, where when, let's say that the emotionally
immature person says, all of a sudden, I want the dog. Well, they want it right now.
And so even when we're saying, okay, if they want to have the conversation and
say, when should we get one?
That if you say anything other than as soon as you would like to get one,
then what they hear is, well, I think as soon as you would like to get one.
So if you're saying, I think it would be better to wait till after the holidays
or maybe in the summer when the kids are out of school, they hear,
okay, but I want one right now.
And so then that's where that impulsivity really comes into play.
And then the names, it's a fascinating one, and this is one where I know that
there's not an exact science to this, but so often the emotionally immature,
narcissistic person can't ever, they have to be the one that comes up with the idea, the name.
And so, then anything you put out there is going to be met with an immediate
no, even if that's something that they liked.
Because it's almost like this reflexive no, because this is,
and I think this is going to be one of the themes today.
If you really look at the core of emotional immaturity or narcissism,
here's a little kid that didn't see a parent model taking ownership of any emotion,
any thought, any action that they did.
And it's somebody who the parent was really good at making the kid feel bad
because again, if you grow up and you are emotionally mature,
there's one way to do things.
There's a right way, which means, and that is your way, which means all the
other ways are wrong ways.
So then as a parent, your little kid is going to do things their way because
they're a kid, but then their way is the wrong way because that's not the way that you would do it.
And now you also get a chance to take the one up position, even on a little
kid and and lecture and tell them the things that they don't understand.
And then you get to even tell them how they do understand those things and probably
they understood them at a much younger age than you did, champ.
But aren't you lucky that I'm your dad?
So it can just be maddening. But in that scenario, then it has to be his suggestion of a name.
Even if you like the name, well, he'll file that away and he'll bring it up later.
And then you can be gaslit to say, I always wanted that name.
You're the one that said that we couldn't use it.
Another person said, I totally feel this. It's like their brain says,
Oh, you hate this must be remembered as you love this, or I'm going to throw
these at you just to see how you react.
And if it's not what I think you should act like, then you're not grateful. Absolutely.
And that's that is the case. Another person said, I go back and forth between
thinking that things like this, when he does the exact opposite are purposeful
or not purposeful, he knows, and either he does it to bother me and elicit a reaction or control,
or purposeful, like he knows and decides he doesn't care because that's not
what he wants, and only what he wants matters.
Or she said, or it isn't purposeful because he doesn't think about me at all.
And I say it is D, all of the above, because I really think that there's so
much there where I think I maybe shared this in an episode a couple of weeks
ago, but I had somebody who is now continuing in a workplace with,
I think, a very highly narcissistic person that they have to interact with.
And it is honestly, I think I used the example of it's almost as if the person
says, Hey, I have to go walk around in the building and I don't know if I exist
unless I have someone else going with me that then I can make feel worse and
I can tell them how amazing I am.
So can you come with me?" And so then the person that was telling me about this,
they said that because other people have set boundaries and have just said no,
and now they are on this person's bad list,
the person I'm talking to is the pathologically kind person, so kind.
So then they go and then they get to hear all the things that they don't understand,
all the things that the workplace is doing wrong, and how much better that person
would if they were in different positions of authority.
I do really feel like that the true emotionally immature or narcissistic person
needs, they just need another human to exist so that then they know that they
exist so that they can then take this one -up position.
So another person said sleep deprivation. He began waking me up every night.
She said, I get up early for work and he sleeps late.
So sometimes he would wake me up when he came to bed hours later.
I would ask him not to wake me up and please let me sleep.
And he would just say, he's just trying to cuddle or you woke yourself up.
She said, it got so bad. I moved into the guest room. Then several times a week,
he would come into the guest room and wake me up either climbing into my bed.
And I would ask him to leave and he would refuse. Or at least once a week,
he would wake me up to yell at me about something, start an argument.
And it was this that made me realize I do not share in the responsibility of
the conflict in our marriage.
She said, it's hard to pick a fight when you're asleep.
Another person said the cuts were not respecting privacy.
She said, if I locked the door, like the guest room to sleep or the bathroom,
he would unlock it and come in.
He even broke down the guest room door once when I had locked it and then blocked
the door because I was so desperate to sleep through the night.
Someone said controlling the environment. And this one, this one,
I get a lot of emails about this.
The lights we set to his requirements, color, brightness, when they come on
or off, he chose the temperature of the house. That one's such a common one.
When I was allowed to run the dishwasher, laundry, he controls the home decor.
If he chose the thing, he loved it. If I chose that same thing, it was horrible.
I wasn't allowed to display the cookie jar that I had been given that was a
wedding gift from my mom, a gift to her and my dad, who died when I was young,
and he knew that that cookie jar had incredible sentimental value,
but he would threaten me all the time to throw it out.
When you look at, that's the thing that just is so, so heartbreaking to hear
is that if you express that something is important to you and you're working
with a truly emotionally immature narcissistic person, then that will be weaponized,
it will be used against you.
And that's one of those where it's just a matter of time and it again breaks
my heart to see that because oftentimes the pathologically kind person will
really open up and try to have a real tender moment with somebody that they care about.
And that person may even act as if they're engaged, but then later, then they will use that.
They know that is a button they can push to get you to respond.
And when you remember that, the more that you start to stand up for yourself
or set boundaries, and the narcissist sees the boundaries as a challenge,
then they go for bigger and bigger buttons, which is part of that whole concept
of why it's so important to gray rock, or to just kind of be.
And you love that cookie jar, but I think what people often say is if they now
knew, they knew then what they know now,
they would just act indifferent to the cookie jar, but then on the inside,
they would love it and appreciate it, which it may sound like somebody listening
says, okay, all right, I like that, it's a survival tool.
But the relationship, I don't believe, should be a place where someone is trying
to find survival tools, should be a place where one is learning to flourish
and just become a better version of them.
Never showing up in over 20 years together. This person said,
I was at every one of the family dinners, the events.
I stayed with his family for weeks after babies were born.
I took care of his family. I visited his grandparents on my own when I traveled into their town.
I supported his parents and his extended family at every opportunity I could.
And he came to a total of two of my family's events over 20 years.
Not only would he not come with me to any of my family events,
weddings, family gatherings, funerals, special events, he would then complain
that I was leaving so that I could attend.
And she said, I've lost track of the number of times that I had to lie to protect
him when I was asked where he was, and I would say that he had some obligation
that kept him from being able to be there.
And sometimes I do get the questions asked about what does a boundary even really look like?
And one here could be, you know, I'm not going to lie for you to my family.
Now, then you can obviously see that then the next thing coming up is the narcissist
isn't going to say, okay, I get it.
Yeah. You can just tell them that I don't really feel like coming.
No, they wouldn't do that. So now they can use the, I can't believe you won't support me.
Well, you lie all the time, whatever the button is, it's going to be pushed. Okay.
Why don't you tell that you do this or okay I'll call them up right now and
I'll tell them all the things you do wrong.
It's so emotionally immature but that's where things can be difficult but where
you can start to make a real change.
If it's saying you know you can do whatever you want to do you don't have to
go to the events or the functions but I am going to go and I'm not going to
cover up for you anymore and it can be really difficult to set those boundaries
but that is a good example of a boundary that can be held.
And again whether you're in the workplace or in your relationship or whatever that looks like.
Someone said sabotaging when there's an event that is about me And she said,
I've been recognized a few times in my industry or my community or company events,
my church or nonprofit work, then he will sabotage me just before the event,
we get into some sort of massive fight,
or he stalls and makes us really late, or he won't come at all.
Or if he does come to the actual event, then if he's there, then he will be
supportive and take pictures and talk to people about how great I am.
And she said, it's so confusing and painful. And it's interesting,
my wife and I were on a run a few nights ago and just talking about some various
things and we were sharing some stories about, I think, a mutual acquaintance
and pointing out that it was a situation where whenever the husband was going to go out of town,
then the wife would have a flare -up of kind of a name, name the disease, fill in the disease.
And it was sad because in this scenario, the husband ended up dying.
In essence, kind of stepping away from his career because it got to the point
where it was so bad and I know that they weren't getting help for it.
Nobody was going to therapy and it would just result in fights and frustration,
but it really, you can see patterns like that often. Wasting time.
A person said, this is a huge trigger for my husband. When he was ready to go,
I better be in the car already and it was a huge deal if I ever had to run back
into the house for anything.
The minute or two delay would be such an inconvenience. There's no point even
going anymore, he would say. But if he needed to do anything at all that would
delay us, whether it's 5, 10, 15 minutes, even up to an hour,
then I better not complain because there was a reason why.
Or because, well, I always make, I'm always doing things like that too.
These are the situations where in a healthy adult relationship,
I think it's important to point out, I don't know, unless you're getting on
an airplane, maybe a tea time, but not really.
Then things happen and people are late. And if you are the person that is habitually
late and your partner is pretty cool about things, you know Maybe that is something
that you can take a look at self -confront. Maybe you want to grow.
Why am I but in so many of these situations? I think people are just being and doing being human and,
Because it goes back to that if you are a couple minutes late now the narcissist
or the emotionally immature person Has something that they can latch on to they
can grab a hold of and then they can use against you.
Food. There are a lot of things, a lot of things around food.
I think I've talked about this in some of the previous episodes.
This person said, it's taken me years to admit to myself that I'm a good cook.
Doesn't matter how many times my friends or my family would tell me it was so
hard to receive praise from my husband that I never thought it was true.
Not long ago, his sister and her family came over to visit and dinner rolled
around. So I put together something, salad, rice, some fish.
I didn't have enough mahi -mahi in the freezer for everybody, so I cooked some cod.
When I plated, even, she uses the word plated, so that means you know that she's a good cook.
When I plated and everybody sat down, I realized I had given him a plate with
the cod, he decided he recently doesn't like it, I knew he would have an issue with it.
So I just, she said, I love it, grabbed my popcorn, having a popcorn moment,
and he took one bite, and now in front of his family, he says how it wasn't good.
And all of the things that he just didn't like about it, and he leaves the table
and he sits down on the couch.
Then she said, my eight -year -old nephew kept asking what he was doing and
why he didn't like it. Because my eight -year -old said, but it's so good.
So she said, even the child understood that this was childish behavior.
Walking ahead, she said, I know this has been covered before 100 % this is true.
He keeps a good 15 feet ahead of me always.
Eating, he eats super fast, this is another one, and then is impatient with me to finish.
Over the years I've changed and I now eat faster than anyone else,
I know, but it's still too slow for him.
And I think this would be one where it's that antagonistic style,
the narcissist, everything's a competition.
So if you speed up your eating, he's still better beat you and that way he can
tell you how slow you are.
But she said, I frequently have to take my food to go if we're at a restaurant,
the occasion doesn't matter either special anniversary dinner,
I'm one bite into my meal and he's asking for the bill.
Another person talked about double standards for everything.
It would be unforgivable if I did something, but if he does it,
then I better not even point it out or there will be an argument and it will
be turned around to be my fault.
Hero or victim, nothing in between.
She said, I'm not allowed to say no to anything. If I do, it's just a barrage
or word salad of all the reasons that it's the worst thing that I could do is
to tell him no, especially without being heard.
Here's a person who said, this was a deep cut and one that he poured salt in, again, just last week.
After our son was two, I sat down next to my husband and I told him,
I would like to stop taking my birth control to begin trying for another baby.
He immediately got upset and said, so what, get a vasectomy, or no more sex?
I was so taken back i didn't know why he would even say that then the anger
said into him suddenly he's accusing me of taking the decision out of his hands
as if i said i am going to stop taking birth control which i know i absolutely did not.
This is one of those conversations that i intended to have as normal married
couples do of are we ready to have another kid. Or should we wait a bit longer?
What about our age? What about how our son was in emergency C -section?
What about my health?" But she said, there was none of the curiosity in questions.
She said, just went from a simple sentence to open communications on the subject
to being accused of not allowing him to make a decision.
She said, I was so oblivious to what was going on here that for the first time
I gave him the silent treatment and it lasted for up to two weeks.
She said, unintentionally, I
just didn't have anything nice to say and I needed to gather my thoughts.
And it was during this time that I realized he was doing exactly what he was
accusing me of as well as understanding he never wanted our first child and
only did it because he wanted me to know what it's like to be a mom,
when really, he knew if we didn't, it was a deal breaker for me.
So now being told he doesn't want any more over and over, he won't adopt,
he won't foster, it's all his decision, which is very much still a deal breaker,
but now he knows leaving has been made more complicated. it.
After the two -week silence from me, he said he was going to let me know that
he was ready to try again on my birthday, which was a few weeks away,
but then apparently she said I ruined it.
I called him out saying that's just it. You're going to continually tell me
that I ruined it, so it will be on me anytime I bring it up until I run out of time biologically.
She said I probably only have a few years left of viable eggs.
He reassured me that that wasn't it, but told me that he was trying to surprise
me by buying me a new bigger car that we would then have room in,
but I ruined it by ruining the surprise and wanting to pick my own car out.
She said just last week this came up when he told me everything had to be my
way. I pointed out that no more kids was not my way.
Not being able to move furniture or decorate is not my way.
He told me again that he was ready to try for another kid, but I had to threaten
him with my decision to stop taking birth control, which I never did,
nor did I plan to, unless we agreed it was time.
And now he's too old, and I'm definitely too old, since I'm a year and a half older than him.
She said, this is what started off my journey of realizing my marriage wasn't
normal and something big was off.
Another person said, one of the cuts is when he tells me that I don't love him
unconditionally or I never loved him because I'm upset about his behavior.
When he says that I don't have any sympathy and that there's no way I could
ever understand what he's been through in his life and I'm just perfect and
everything is just perfect.
During fights, when I'm trying to talk about how I feel, he will mimic me or
downplay what I'm saying, like I'm being ridiculous.
When he starts yelling at me, I try to stay patient, and then after a while,
I end up yelling back. And then he giggles and he looks at me like I'm totally psychotic.
Not being intimate or physical with me at all for a very long time,
and me bringing up that it makes makes me feel unwanted and insecure.
And then when I tell him that I'm done and ready to get out of the relationship,
then he turns it back on and says the same things from when we were first together.
And she said, feel free to use that story.
Another person said, my family, parents, siblings, they love to camp.
My parents had invited us to go camping with them.
For a long weekend, we were gonna go camping, but my narcissistic ex -husband
complained about having to go and having to spend time with them.
So I told him he could stay behind, but he still chose to come.
I just can't let her go on her own. And so now he's not gonna go and just say,
all right, you know what, I don't wanna go, but I'll invite not wanting to go
with me and I'll be present.
I will make the most of this, like a mature person would do.
She said he didn't help pack or anything. We have four kids and the youngest
was only a few months old.
I found the tents, the sleeping bags, the gear, the clothes for the kids and packed the van.
My parents knew we struggled financially due to the excess spending of my husband.
And so they said that they would take care of the majority of food for the trip
and I could just bring some snacks to share and things that the kids would like.
We get to the camping spot and I set up the majority of the camping site while
tending to the kids while he doesn't do much to help.
We sleep the first night and I'm just happy to be there.
The next morning, it's discovered that I forgot the hot chocolate.
He completely berates me in front of my parents and siblings and their spouses,
because it was the one thing that he cared about.
Oh my gosh, this is why I appreciate this one so much.
I have a person that I'm working with and they have a narcissistic parent and then everything.
Everything is always the one thing. The only thing I wanted was for you to go to this event.
And then the person goes to the event and then they end up getting gas lit at the event.
The only thing I ever wanted was this renovation to the house.
They make the renovation to the house and then the person doesn't like it anymore
and then it's on to the next, the only thing I ever wanted.
So of course, this sounds like this narcissist berates about the hot chocolate
because that is the one thing he cared about, his beloved hot chocolate.
And she said, I didn't bring it and he assumed I did it just to make his trip miserable.
She said, I had gone over our packing list with him before I packed and he never
mentioned it. And she said, I don't even drink it.
So it sounds like this was a revelation to understand now. He chose several
kids and years into the relationship that it was now the time.
Now was the time that he would declare his extreme love and adoration for hot chocolate.
The one thing that he wanted that he did not mention during the packing and
lo and behold she forgot it. That was the only thing that probably could have made the entire trip.
She said some of my family even said to him, it's hot chocolate, chill.
But he tried to convince me and my family that the whole weekend then that he
was the victim, and now looks like everybody was out to make him miserable.
She said this was the time I realized things like this happen in our marriage
quite often. It was the catalyst for me waking up that something was completely
wrong in my relationship.
Okay, true confession that I am back recording the next part of this episode
a few days later, and I'm looking at the video because I had to get caught up on where we left off.
And ah, the beloved hot chocolate story.
But I think I may be wearing the same shirt and it has not been that many days
away from the last taping. So I'm not really sure what to make of that.
So maybe that's just a plug to go watch the YouTube video and tell me,
because I think they might be a slightly different shade of blue.
But I digress. Let's get back to the episode.
So the next person, I think this is a pretty big concept too.
The person said, when I hold a boundary or disagree or do anything that he doesn't
like, then he demands some verbal confirmation.
Like, are we okay? Do you really love me?
And then he'll say things like, what am I even allowed to do or say anymore?
But then she said, of course, my answer is never correct and results in his
monologue of all the things that I say or do wrong and what I should have said
or what I should have done instead.
When he tells me to care for myself yet complains and then guilts me if I want
to read or work out or, heaven forbid, take a shower alone.
When he finally started therapy, I mentioned things between he and our daughters
that those might be good or important things to bring up.
And he said he has other things to talk about because they're too little to
remember any of this anyway.
And he's constantly saying, that's not on me, that's you or your trauma or your
exes when I discuss my concerns or my feelings.
And so a couple of thoughts here, one of those where if you hold a boundary,
that is gonna make the emotionally immature person, the narcissistic person,
I mean anybody really, if you are good at holding your boundary,
then it's gonna bring up feelings for another person out there working on their own maturity,
or if they are saying, okay, you know what, I appreciate that.
This is where we're so afraid of contention that we avoid tension altogether
and holding the boundary is gonna cause some tension in the relationship.
So when that tension occurs at that point, then he wants to get rid of his discomfort by saying,
okay, I mean, I don't necessarily agree with your boundary and I think that
you don't even understand what you're doing, but just tell me,
are we fine? Are we good? Do you still love me?
And so it's almost a really subtle way to just attack that boundary.
Because if she's setting the boundary, because she really doesn't feel like
we're very good right now, but then if she says, yeah, we're good,
we're fine, because she's kind and he wants his discomfort eased or his anxiety lessened,
and now she can also know at this point that he will go back to,
okay, yeah, I don't know what that whole boundary thing was that you were doing,
but you said we were fine.
You said we were good. So now are you going back on it? You can just see the
subtle ways that somebody can just take hold of of any conversation and then
turn that into gaslighting.
And here's another one that I know, I know this comes, this one can occur in.
Relationships where it's more just somebody that doesn't know what they don't
know or they are being more emotionally immature.
So I'm not saying that this is full -blown narcissism, but in what I just read where she says that,
He tells me that my answer isn't correct like what i said is not correct and
now here all the things that i say or do wrong and that i should have said it this way instead.
And that's one that i do here often will it would be nicer if you just said
it this way and what you really should have said is.
But here's the concept of where she said what she said and i say the things
i say because it's the first time that i am being me in any particular given
situation based on all of my life experience to bring me to that table so.
Check it out. That's what I said.
When somebody says, well, you should say it this way, if you find yourself going,
okay, I got to remember how to say that next time then, because what that's
gonna lead to is you starting to walk on eggshells because I need to make sure I say it right.
And that's that's the thing where in that moment, I feel most of the time that
person is trying to get rid of their discomfort of the way that maybe they handle
the situation or they're not even aware that they're trying to control a situation.
They're trying to control another person. I want you to do these things that
I think would be best for you to do, but in reality, that will make it easier
for me because that's pretty emotionally mature. It's pretty selfish.
So, if somebody is trying to give you stage directions and hand you your lines
in the middle of the scene or then afterward and say, I think it would have
been better if you would have said this. Can you say it this way?
Now, there's a difference. Here's where it is so fascinating.
There's a difference of when we have a mature conversation and if and I give
the example often where a couple was in my office and she said that that she
would say, well, that's abuse, you're abusing me.
And he would get very upset, very quickly.
And then we had a tell me more four pillar conversation, assuming good intentions.
I had to help him know that she wasn't trying to hurt him.
And he couldn't say that's ridiculous because that is how she felt.
And she had a meaning attached to what abuse was. So then that led into pillar
three, questions before comments. All right, let's talk about what does that mean to you?
And she'd been reading a lot about emotional abuse. And so then I couldn't have him.
Go into the bunker go into a defensive mode that's my pillar for you to stay
present not to say okay well i guess i'm super abusive and you can just call me whatever you want.
But i had to stay present and say okay i appreciate that i can understand that
that is where you're coming from that's your information or your definition of abuse and so then.
We went to him and now she was.
The listener in the four pillars, assuming good intentions, couldn't tell him
he's wrong, tell me more, questions before comments, staying present.
And he had grown up in a home where there was a lot of physical abuse and really,
really intense physical abuse.
So in that scenario then, they both felt heard and understood,
and they were both trying to work on the relationship.
And so at that point then, she's saying, man, I am so sorry,
I will find another word. But here's the difference, where when he was feeling
so heard and understood and knew she wasn't trying to hurt him,
that at that point then he was able to say, no, I understand.
I know you're not trying to hurt me with it. And if that's the phrase that you
want to use, then it's a me thing.
I need to learn that that is not – you don't know what my experience was like.
And that's where we start to have what I almost call a nice -off.
And then the fight is in leaning in toward each other and trying to meet the other person's needs.
Now, I'd much rather have that kind of a dust up in a relationship than both
of them never having the tools or even trying to get outside of their own ego
and feel heard or understood.
But if you're someone who is in a relationship where the other person is basically
handing you your lines after, if you've ever been in a play, I never really was.
I played a cha -cha -cha the lion, I think in like first grade.
I don't really remember other than my parents telling me that.
But I've had kids that have been in plays and then when they,
after a show and the director has notes. I think that's always really fascinating.
But that's not what we want in a marriage. It's like, hey, let's go over how
you handled that conversation.
So I think you could have done it better because I didn't really like the way
that you said that thing.
And so next time I would like for you to do it different. Now I may change my
mind in that moment as well, so that you'll be totally confused,
which again, leads to somebody feeling like they're walking on eggshells.
So if somebody is trying to tell you what to say again, or what to think or
feel, then that really is more of a them issue.
You can take that data in if there's anything productive there.
Maybe that is some good feedback, but ultimately that's something for you to
then see if it is something that you want to integrate into your your life.
This one will break your heart. The person said he was anonymously,
but hearing some devastating news from some family friends that one of the spouses
has a very rare and serious cancer.
My husband at that point said, you know, it got me thinking.
I really wouldn't care if you died. I mean, I would feel bad for our kids not
having a mom, but you know what? it really wouldn't bother me.
And she said, I told him, you really didn't have to tell me that.
That was probably one of the most hurtful things anybody has ever said to me.
And he said, hey, I just wanted to know, I just wanted you to know where I was
at mentally, because she said we're struggling at making it work because she had filed for divorce.
And then she said that that even
came after what she had thought were some breakthroughs in counseling.
And then it came up again and again, and he continued to hold fast to it.
Somebody in the group said, what a turd. And the other person said,
boy, That's a pretty generous description.
There's a person that said there's one thing, and this is what I think we could
base an entire episode on.
She said, there's one thing that I can truly say has happened,
I would say thousands of times in our 20 plus years of marriage,
in arguments and conversations and interactions,
no matter how innocent or volatile, he would regularly tell me how I feel,
why I feel that way, and or what I need to do about those feelings.
She said one of my craziest examples was when he came home one day from work,
and I was sitting on the couch. I was just relaxing and just being.
She said I noticed him literally tiptoeing around the room, looking at me concerned
until finally I broke and said, what's going on?
And he replied, I know you're not mad. And I said, what?
I'm not mad. I'm just here enjoying the couch. And he said, no,
I know you're mad at me and I want you to know, I know what I need to do to make it better.
She said, I started to get irritated, but then I thought, am I mad?
No, I'm not. So I said, I'm really not mad. I'm not sure what I have to be mad about.
Did you do something that you think I would be mad at you for?" And he said,
No, but I don't believe you.
And then I said, I wasn't mad, but I'm kind of starting to become mad.
And then he responded, see, I knew it. I knew I knew you were mad.
She said, it's so crazy making, and you're welcome to use this.
So here's somebody just being and doing. I love how she says enjoying the couch.
That is a very present moment right there.
And then he comes in. He says, oh, geez, OK, I know you're mad.
I know you're mad. And at that point, I love where she said, am I checking in?
I'm not. So, then the challenge, the differentiation challenge at that point
becomes to notice the discomfort of the gas lighting,
getting a little warm, and then being able to continue to stay calm and present
because I'm not mad, but I'm noticing, I'm noticing I maybe am starting to get
angry, but that's a me thing.
And so, now I'm going to invite the potential to get angry to come with me while
I go for a walk out in the fresh air because I don't have to defend myself and
I don't even have to break down his point of view or his reality.
And that one had a few people say, yeah, I could have written that.
Yeah, that happened to me.
Somebody else saying, mine tells me what I think, how I feel, what I need.
And she said, I've tried telling him directly, what I need right now is for
you to listen or maybe even give me a hug.
Perhaps something at work and he would say, nope, that's not what you need.
What you need is, and she said, typically, apparently I needed a long lecture.
Another person talks about the concept of the medical exit or confabulation,
she said, or just a contrived way of avoiding blame or wanting me to feel sorry
for him and let him off the hook, but she said he had promised not to drink anymore.
And I'm assuming we're talking alcohol, not fluids of any sorts.
She said, whenever I would find him to be too drunk to cover up,
the next day he would deny being drunk and said he was sleepless.
He was kind of delirious because he had found out that a coworker had passed away.
She said, I don't know how many coworkers passed away over the years,
but it was an unbelievable amount looking back at it now.
I want to laugh, but I feel like that's because I mean, I hear this one often
and sometimes I have, here's the train of thought.
When my kids were little and they would play together and there,
if we talk about this often, we joke that my oldest Alex was playing with the
next down McKinley and they were playing with some dolls and I was listening
from the other room and then I think one of them said,
oh, where's your mom? And she's like, she died.
And then And the other person, the other kid said, again, and I just,
to this day, we laugh about it because they were, they don't really remember what, what led to that.
Because again, the child therapist at one point in me wants to say,
oh, what, what were they processing? You know, what did they see or what they witnessed?
But I just think that was interesting because since that time,
I'll have people bring up stories like this and I've sat in where somebody has
brought something up and then their spouses tried to do a nice four -pillar conversation and say,
Okay, so is this the aunt that I thought had passed away a few years ago?
And sometimes you'll just look at the emotionally immature, narcissistic person,
just stare straight ahead, and here we go. They're going to wait this one out.
Until finally their spouse says, Okay, I guess maybe I'm wrong.
Because this is maybe just a made -up excuse, but I don't know,
or maybe this person worked at, I can't even pull a funny joke right now,
where lots of co -workers would die.
Maybe this person that's writing this is in their mid to late 90s and they work,
the husband works at a geriatric end -of -life facility, hospice care, something like that.
But then she said, I even asked some co -workers about some of the people initially
at events, but they didn't know what I was talking about.
She said, talk about crazy making. It was so confusing back when I was trying
to make it work. And here's the key where I believed him, because why wouldn't you?
People believe the emotionally immature, the narcissists until they actually
have the awareness of the information and they don't.
I never wanted to start getting into the realm of politics, but I've worked
with politicians, people that have been family members to politicians at various
levels. some at pretty large levels.
And what's fascinating is a lot of times I have worked with family members who
are aware of the politician in their family who says all kinds of things,
whatever it is in that moment,
to kind of get the people around them excited or to try to make those people
feel heard or seen or understood.
And now they move on to the next crowd.
And so when the person gets elevated and they get in more positions,
they will say things to their constituents and their constituents think,
okay, this person would not be in this position if they weren't telling the truth.
So then that's where you start to see different conspiracy theories come up.
You know, if this politician said, I don't know, we'll give a horrible example,
but the sky is blue when they are speaking at one state and they go to the next
state and they say, what I love about your state is how the sky is always yellow.
And then people are saying, okay, rather than saying that doesn't make any sense,
they're saying this person is in this position of authority.
Of course they wouldn't lie.
Of course, they couldn't be narcissistic. So what are they trying to convey?
What's the meaning here?
Yellow, that's a color. Blue is a color.
Yellow has more letters than blue. So there must be some, some,
they must be talking in a code.
No, they're pretty emotionally immature or narcissistic. And then if you start
to look at all the patterns, they don't have any consistency with their message
or their emotions or that sort of thing.
So that one's just really fascinating and part of how deep the crazy making
can get. It can be, I've had 50 different people pass away in the workplace,
and then you go to the workplace and there they all are, back from the dead, apparently.
She actually had a little bit extra on this one. She said, when I'd had enough
the second and final time, he said, wait, wait, wait, I have to confess to you.
This is all because of my abuse as a child. And she said, I don't want to be
cold, but I don't know whether to believe him after all the other things that
I found out not to be true.
She said, I think these things were ways to make himself a victim so that I
would feel sorry for him and excuse the behavior.
And you can share this anonymously. And we did. And you're right.
And I think it is. It's a childhood defense mechanism.
Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism to if that person only really felt
seen or understood when they had somebody giving them empathy or oh man that
sounds really hard and all of a sudden that person whoo I feel good I got out of that jam and.
It's not like they're thinking I gotta keep track of how many people have passed
away I have to keep track of what color I said the sky was at the last place
that I was no they just got out Of that moment and they're on to the next one
riding bikes probably rode a bike all the way to the next place but then the
people that are left in the
Left in that in that situation are then trying to process and make sense of something because they
Assume that this person is being honest and open.
Okay, let's let's do this I'm looking at I'm on note page 15 and there's another
10 more pages to go of examples.
So I think that is something that I don't want to skimp on and I don't want
this to be a two -hour episode either.
So we're almost at an hour. Let's call this one a day. It is part one.
I promise you part two will be soon, hopefully next week.
I have a bonus episode coming up that if you listen this long,
I think that you'll appreciate. I have an interview with somebody that is out
of their narcissistic marriage and they're really starting to open up and talk
about what their experience was.
If you hear this episode and then the next week you have your own death by a
thousand cuts examples, I would love it if you would send those to contact at
tonyoverbay .com and let me get some on next week's part two episode that are from you,
the listeners who maybe have never written anything down.
There's maybe that call to action is take a moment and just jot something down
and if you want to have it read and that might feel liberating or freeing or
if the death by a thousand cuts episodes have had an impact on you,
I would love to hear hear that and I could read some of those as well because
I really appreciate the feedback and these episodes by far I know get shared
more than most and and really do help people start to feel like they are not
they are not crazy. they're not alone.
So thank you everybody. I'll see you on the bonus episode coming up later this
week and I'll see you next time on waking up the narcissism.
Music.