WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.480 Music. 00:00:06.472 --> 00:00:11.402 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 93 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host 00:00:11.402 --> 00:00:15.082 Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of a variety 00:00:15.082 --> 00:00:19.162 of podcasts including The Virtual Couch, Love ADHD, The Mind, The Mirror, and Me, 00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:23.477 A Murder on the Couch, some of those I co-host with some friends and family, and 00:00:23.864 --> 00:00:28.682 I would just recommend that you go right to the show notes, go to the link tree, 00:00:28.682 --> 00:00:32.162 and sign up for my newsletter because that is where I'm just gonna get all the 00:00:32.162 --> 00:00:36.162 information out so we can jump right to the episodes. And you can also go to Tony 00:00:36.162 --> 00:00:40.780 overbay.com by the time you hear this or in the not too distant future I've got a big update to 00:00:41.202 --> 00:00:46.322 the website and it will feature the courses and books and podcasts and hopefully a nice way to go 00:00:46.322 --> 00:00:50.970 search through the four or five hundred total episodes and the variety of mental health topics. 00:00:51.384 --> 00:00:57.362 But today I want to get right to the topic. We're going to talk about perception versus 00:00:57.362 --> 00:01:03.522 perspective which I think is a really key thing to understand and if you can tell I'm trying to 00:01:03.522 --> 00:01:10.322 to be a little more intentional about recognizing what emotional immaturity or narcissism looks 00:01:10.322 --> 00:01:14.538 like in your relationship, whether that's with your relationship with a spouse or a, 00:01:15.042 --> 00:01:20.228 co-worker, a religious institution, a sibling, an adult sibling, a parent, you name it. 00:01:20.842 --> 00:01:26.002 And I also am trying to weave in there what healthy relationships look like because I 00:01:26.002 --> 00:01:31.291 I recognize, or one of the most common questions that I get from listeners is... 00:01:31.886 --> 00:01:42.409 When we don't know what we don't know, maybe we don't know that we are supposed to be able to have our own thoughts and opinions and that this concept of being interdependent, we'll talk about that a little bit today too. 00:01:42.958 --> 00:01:53.761 That what that even means because it can feel normal or familiar to be codependent to somebody who is emotionally immature, so says the pathologically kind person. 00:01:54.157 --> 00:01:58.736 So, let's dive into that. We're also going to, I've got a question about gray rocking 00:01:58.736 --> 00:02:04.456 versus the silent treatment that I will weave into the end of today's episode. And then 00:02:04.456 --> 00:02:08.416 as always, I want your comments, I want your questions. I've had a lot of emails lately 00:02:08.416 --> 00:02:12.416 and I just want those of you to know that if you have sent me emails, especially people 00:02:12.416 --> 00:02:16.114 have really laid out a lot of heartfelt stories and I still am getting poems and I'm getting 00:02:16.376 --> 00:02:19.136 a lot of people that are really expressing themselves and I'm trying to figure out a 00:02:19.136 --> 00:02:27.056 way to be able to really share a lot more of those emails and the the poetry. And if you are interested 00:02:27.056 --> 00:02:30.416 still in the women's group or the men's group, please reach out and let me know through the 00:02:30.416 --> 00:02:35.856 website or just write to contact at tonyoverbay.com or info at tonyoverbay.com. We'll get you that 00:02:35.856 --> 00:02:41.616 information. So I want to start off today by sharing a letter which is just one of my favorite 00:02:41.616 --> 00:02:47.136 things to do. And this one is not based off of a true story. This is a legitimate letter from 00:02:47.136 --> 00:02:49.026 from somebody that gave me permission to read this. 00:02:49.336 --> 00:02:53.113 She says, hi there, I've been a fan of your podcast for months and I just wanted to say thank you. 00:02:53.216 --> 00:02:58.685 I've been carrying around so much confusion and pain and your episodes have been a sort of lifeline for me. 00:02:58.936 --> 00:03:01.616 I've wanted to write in forever, but I couldn't shake off the guilt 00:03:01.616 --> 00:03:04.078 of feeling like I'm betraying my husband by doing so. 00:03:04.656 --> 00:03:07.805 But I'm at a breaking point and I need help navigating this mess. 00:03:08.376 --> 00:03:12.063 My husband's favorite phrase is, your perception is your reality. 00:03:12.696 --> 00:03:16.861 He says it whenever we have a disagreement or when I call him out on something that he said 00:03:16.996 --> 00:03:21.676 done that hurts me. It's his go-to line, and the implication is always that if my 00:03:21.676 --> 00:03:27.276 perception is wrong, then that's on me, not him. 00:03:26.034 --> 00:03:31.526 He has used this phrase in two very distinct scenarios that left me feeling utterly confused and powerless. 00:03:31.985 --> 00:03:41.410 Let me pause before we get to those two scenarios and this concept of where the implication is that if her perception is wrong. 00:03:41.959 --> 00:03:48.884 And I did an episode this week on the virtual couch that I would love for you to take a moment and go listen to or maybe right after this, 00:03:49.368 --> 00:03:53.356 because there's a lot of information that's coming out in the therapy world right now. 00:03:53.604 --> 00:03:57.284 Some people that I've actually had interactions with or I've worked with people that have worked 00:03:57.284 --> 00:04:03.142 with these therapists, that's Jodi Hildebrand and then in the Ruby Franke Eight Passengers 00:04:03.524 --> 00:04:07.004 YouTube channel and the allegations of child abuse. 00:04:07.004 --> 00:04:11.784 And there's just a lot going on right now in the world of mental health of people 00:04:11.784 --> 00:04:16.724 that have just felt like they have all the answers as the practitioner and they're the ones 00:04:16.724 --> 00:04:19.024 that can determine if somebody is good or bad, 00:04:19.024 --> 00:04:23.624 light or dark, or pose judgment, telling people that no, you don't even know, 00:04:23.624 --> 00:04:26.080 this is what you're doing, this is how you're feeling, 00:04:26.424 --> 00:04:29.344 and not just having that person feel heard or understood. 00:04:29.344 --> 00:04:33.084 And I feel like that is, in my opinion, that is incredibly emotionally immature 00:04:33.084 --> 00:04:37.944 and narcissistic behavior from somebody that is in a position to help other people. 00:04:37.944 --> 00:04:44.584 And that is somebody that is coming to them so vulnerable, and then you are, I just can't imagine doing that 00:04:44.584 --> 00:04:45.784 to somebody as a therapist. 00:04:46.119 --> 00:04:49.184 But the reason I say that is just even this concept of someone else is telling, 00:04:49.184 --> 00:04:52.861 that this husband is telling the wife, hey, so your perception is wrong. 00:04:53.464 --> 00:04:57.560 Which, break that down, that's one of the most ludicrous things I can even think of. 00:04:58.264 --> 00:05:02.701 So he really is that special that he knows what her perception is better than she does, 00:05:03.064 --> 00:05:06.392 and therefore then can be judge, jury, and executioner 00:05:06.744 --> 00:05:12.144 on her perception, without curiosity, or forget the without curiosity, 00:05:12.144 --> 00:05:16.284 that that's his mindset in general, that he gets to be the person who deems 00:05:16.284 --> 00:05:17.644 if she is right or wrong. 00:05:17.644 --> 00:05:19.886 I think you're wrong, and you don't even realize you are. 00:05:20.424 --> 00:05:25.104 Talk about that, oh, it's my pre-pillar. It's off of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication, 00:05:25.476 --> 00:05:26.644 that observation and judgment. 00:05:26.644 --> 00:05:31.814 He makes the observation, makes the judgment, and now if you say anything other than you are right, 00:05:32.364 --> 00:05:35.864 whatever you just told me is absolutely correct. I'm not even aware of the things 00:05:35.864 --> 00:05:37.684 that I am feeling or doing or saying. 00:05:38.164 --> 00:05:42.704 If she doesn't just completely agree, then he gets to even say, see, look at that, 00:05:42.704 --> 00:05:45.209 you don't even know yourself, because I do. 00:05:45.344 --> 00:05:48.904 I know you better than you know yourself, which is just insane, it really is. 00:05:48.904 --> 00:05:52.213 So please go check out that episode on the virtual couch. 00:05:52.824 --> 00:05:56.561 Okay, and one more fun fact, actually, about that episode on the virtual couch. 00:05:57.290 --> 00:06:06.761 There's a software that I use, this is gonna seem like such a tangent, but it's just fascinating because I am intrigued by the world of artificial intelligence, it's here, so let's take a look at it, let's see what we can do with it. 00:06:07.328 --> 00:06:14.719 And the software that I use to edit and take out the uhs and the ums, it's just a powerful piece of software called Descript. 00:06:15.097 --> 00:06:23.514 And it has a brand new feature that you can not look at the camera, and then you can do this eye correction and it will then make it look like you're looking at the camera. 00:06:23.811 --> 00:06:31.859 So I went on the beginning of the virtual couch episode and I said, Hey, I've already filmed the episode, but please, if you've ever not, please go to the YouTube channel. 00:06:32.138 --> 00:06:42.580 And of course, I would love it if you subscribe, but just look at it's a little bit creepy because all of a sudden it looks like I'm just dead staring the camera all the time when in reality, I was looking around looking at notes, but but I wasn't. 00:06:42.580 --> 00:06:50.040 But then the most fascinating thing, I get an email late last night from YouTube, and it's the first time I've ever been taken off or violating some sort of policy. 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.744 So I'm not even sure what I violated, but I'll figure that out. 00:06:53.330 --> 00:06:57.720 I'll put the link in the show notes here as well with this eye correction because it's 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:02.480 just it's it's fascinating to see it's it's artificial intelligence edits. I know it said 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:06.100 it's infancy but it can literally make it look like I am never looking away from the 00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:09.260 camera which I think it actually needs to build in there some blinking or looking away 00:07:09.260 --> 00:07:13.800 because it just looks like I am dead staring the camera for 45 minutes for that virtual 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:19.160 catch episode. But I digress. She said that her husband has used this phrase in two very 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.632 distinct scenarios that left me feeling utterly confused and powerless. 00:07:23.190 --> 00:07:27.480 She says, firstly, which I guess I really didn't know that was a word in this context. 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.760 Firstly, when he makes jokes at my expense in front of friends and I confront him later, he says, 00:07:33.111 --> 00:07:36.680 your perception is your reality. If you think it's humiliating, that's on you, 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.026 because I was just being funny. 00:07:38.665 --> 00:07:42.915 So there's a lack of empathy there for her comments or for her feelings. 00:07:43.679 --> 00:07:48.115 Secondly, when he dismisses my feelings or thoughts, often saying that I'm too sensitive 00:07:48.243 --> 00:07:53.635 or emotional, and then throwing the your perception is your reality line to justify 00:07:53.635 --> 00:07:58.115 his lack of empathy, I end up doubting myself and I feel so confused. Isn't the whole point 00:07:58.115 --> 00:08:03.079 of perception that it's individual? So how can my perception be wrong if it's mine? 00:08:03.691 --> 00:08:06.915 And she says the most troubling of all, why does he get to be the one who decides whose 00:08:06.915 --> 00:08:09.561 whose perception is right and whose perception is wrong. 00:08:10.195 --> 00:08:13.450 She said, it feels like a power play or a way to keep me off balance and doubting myself. 00:08:13.835 --> 00:08:15.016 I would love to hear your thoughts on this. 00:08:15.475 --> 00:08:19.175 So I just feel like this letter brings up so many important issues from the confusion 00:08:19.175 --> 00:08:23.835 of living with a narcissistic partner to the struggle of trying to trust your own reality. 00:08:23.835 --> 00:08:28.675 And it highlights the way that phrases like your perception is your reality can be weaponized 00:08:28.675 --> 00:08:30.752 to invalidate somebody's feelings and experiences. 00:08:31.115 --> 00:08:35.280 Because this is what is so difficult about the world of narcissism or emotional immaturity 00:08:35.715 --> 00:08:39.313 is the concept of the phrase, your perception is your reality, 00:08:39.775 --> 00:08:41.456 can absolutely be true. 00:08:42.015 --> 00:08:46.295 But it can also then be weaponized. Because, and I say this is where 00:08:46.295 --> 00:08:48.055 if you're listening to things with your elbow 00:08:48.055 --> 00:08:49.333 of saying, okay, do you hear that? 00:08:49.415 --> 00:08:51.286 Do you hear what they just said? Because that applies to you. 00:08:51.815 --> 00:08:56.120 Instead of using that as a way to self-reflect. If it brings up some emotion in me, 00:08:56.535 --> 00:08:58.875 what is the emotion that it's bringing up in me and why? 00:08:58.995 --> 00:09:00.514 And is there any truth in that statement? 00:09:01.215 --> 00:09:04.455 But I just wanna say to the people that do send me these kind of emails, 00:09:04.455 --> 00:09:07.975 takes a lot of courage to put it all out there, especially when you're trying to 00:09:07.975 --> 00:09:12.712 navigate a rocky relationship that leaves you feeling all kinds of the 00:09:12.895 --> 00:09:17.375 feelings and just has you questioning your own reality. So I do want to take 00:09:17.375 --> 00:09:23.615 some time and unpack this email, but it's gonna lead to a lot of different things that we're gonna talk about today. So first off, the phrase 00:09:23.615 --> 00:09:27.815 your perception is your reality. On the surface, it almost sounds philosophical, 00:09:28.511 --> 00:09:39.495 but here's where context is absolute king, because to this woman, your husband seems to be using this phrase to then absolve himself from any responsibility for 00:09:39.495 --> 00:09:45.849 his actions and how they affect you. And that is not a philosophy, that is a power play. 00:09:46.555 --> 00:09:51.295 What I want to do is let's dive into that, the difference between perception, because 00:09:51.295 --> 00:09:57.335 that is a word that is used often, perception, and perspective. Those are used interchangeably, 00:09:57.335 --> 00:10:00.655 but they can have some very different meaning. And this can get pretty messy when you're 00:10:00.655 --> 00:10:06.815 dealing with somebody who tends to see things in black and white, which is the focus of 00:10:06.815 --> 00:10:11.855 this podcast, those with narcissistic traits or tendencies or extreme emotional immaturity. 00:10:12.289 --> 00:10:15.535 And for those that are waking up to their narcissism again or their emotional maturity, 00:10:15.535 --> 00:10:20.575 welcome aboard. I want to say I'm a recovering emotionally immature person. And so it is 00:10:20.575 --> 00:10:28.255 absolutely liberating to start to recognize unhealthy coping mechanisms, unhealthy responses, 00:10:28.255 --> 00:10:31.644 your own rejection sensitivity and learn how to sit with that discomfort. 00:10:32.211 --> 00:10:39.899 And then self-confront and grow and it can be scary but then over time what it will start to feel like to be you 00:10:40.187 --> 00:10:48.001 is somebody that feels pretty powerful to be able to take ownership of your own actions and you start to build emotional safety with those that you are in relationships with. 00:10:48.514 --> 00:10:54.662 Because you start to learn that it's okay to say my bad or i didn't realize that i did forget. 00:10:55.104 --> 00:11:06.581 Or, man, I can only imagine that probably did sound pretty rude. Because it was. Because maybe that was my immaturity reacting or responding and being able to take ownership, not from a victim mentality of saying, 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:15.215 yeah, you're right, I'm a horrible piece of garbage. Because then I still want that person that I'm saying that to to come rescue me and say, no, it's okay. I just need to say, man, I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. 00:11:15.602 --> 00:11:19.311 Because over time, that doesn't mean that you have to then take ownership of everything. 00:11:19.581 --> 00:11:21.867 Now we're back to the world of the pathologically kind. 00:11:22.335 --> 00:11:26.215 It's okay, I'll own it because nobody else will, and at least that'll keep the peace and we can move on. 00:11:26.629 --> 00:11:28.421 But I'll take ownership of the things that I do. 00:11:28.421 --> 00:11:32.571 I'll self-reflect on the things that are brought to my attention, but I'll start to trust that if 00:11:32.741 --> 00:11:36.981 somebody is saying, well, this is how I feel and I think this is what you did, then I can say, okay, 00:11:36.981 --> 00:11:39.512 that's, I hear you and tell me more about that. 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:46.901 But ultimately, as this is my life, my human experience, I do get to actually make the call 00:11:46.901 --> 00:11:51.621 of if there's any truth in what I'm processing or what I'm going through or hearing. 00:11:52.304 --> 00:11:56.741 Okay, and then also, because it is the tool of all tools. 00:11:57.489 --> 00:12:01.819 Which is something I think was probably uttered as a slight back when I was in high school. 00:12:02.188 --> 00:12:06.843 That guy is a tool of all tools. I'm talking about the good kind of tool today, I promise. 00:12:07.239 --> 00:12:11.899 But what is the tool of all tools? Differentiation. And it's my good friend, 00:12:11.899 --> 00:12:17.259 and in this context, it is the tool to help you maintain your identity and emotional integrity 00:12:17.330 --> 00:12:22.859 in relationships. It's what can move you from a place of codependence to interdependence. 00:12:22.993 --> 00:12:28.610 And we're going to get seriously into the nitty-gritty details later in the podcast about 00:12:28.934 --> 00:12:35.579 what that looks like to be interdependent and differentiated. So, perception and perspective, 00:12:35.579 --> 00:12:41.179 they are two terms that I feel like people often use interchangeably, but they have some real key 00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:47.344 differences. If you look at perception, it's like the raw input of your life, your human experience. 00:12:47.821 --> 00:12:54.113 So imagine if your senses are cameras and microphones and they are capturing the entire world around you. 00:12:54.564 --> 00:12:58.624 Perception, I mean that is what perception is. So perception deals with the immediate 00:12:58.966 --> 00:13:05.483 wow, that food smells amazing, or ouch, why is this chair so uncomfortable? 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:13.009 So it's all about how you sense and interpret the world in real time based on what in essence hits your sensory organs. 00:13:13.324 --> 00:13:20.733 That's perception so perspective though on the other hand is a little bit more complex because you can think of that then as the editor. 00:13:21.228 --> 00:13:26.414 Do this you know this camera of your perception so you can perception is the raw data coming in. 00:13:26.999 --> 00:13:33.174 And then perspective is the editor of the camera of the footage that you now have. 00:13:33.768 --> 00:13:45.839 So perspective takes that raw input and now it places it in the context of your personal beliefs, your past experiences, your cultural background, all the stuff I love to talk about with acceptance and commitment therapy. 00:13:45.839 --> 00:13:52.839 It takes into account your nature, your nurture, your birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, dreams, fears, all those things. 00:13:53.060 --> 00:13:55.698 So that is what your perspective takes into play. 00:13:56.220 --> 00:14:00.759 It's what you think then when you think, okay, I love the smell of this baked banana 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:05.879 bread. Just again, talking about some aroma because it reminds me of the good old days of growing 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:10.984 up and coming in from playing in the backyard and then there's that smell of banana bread. 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.511 What a treat. So again, that is what your perspective is. 00:14:17.079 --> 00:14:24.208 Or this chair is pretty uncomfortable, but I had to sit on ones that were so much worse 00:14:24.577 --> 00:14:27.746 when I used to camp out waiting to get tickets 00:14:28.151 --> 00:14:34.381 when I was a freshman at Kansas State University because our fraternity literally camped out for weeks 00:14:34.426 --> 00:14:37.279 to get great basketball tickets and who had to camp out? 00:14:37.685 --> 00:14:40.313 The freshmen, which is what I had to do. 00:14:40.952 --> 00:14:52.043 So, again, in simple terms, perception, it's like snapping the photo, perspective, is then editing and captioning that photo based on your own unique life story. 00:14:52.637 --> 00:15:08.373 And understanding the difference between the two can help you become more self-aware and better at empathizing with others, because you start to realize everybody's walking around with their own editors, and they are interpreting the same raw footage in completely different ways. 00:15:08.922 --> 00:15:26.102 So when you can understand the difference between perception and perspective, and this is why I liked that email that set up the podcast today, because ultimately it is a you thing, and I'm saying that in a very positive way, that this is up to you to understand that difference between perception and perspective. 00:15:26.102 --> 00:15:30.582 So that then if her husband is saying your perception is your reality and it is wrong. 00:15:31.462 --> 00:15:36.415 Says her husband looking through his perspective, through his editor. 00:15:36.992 --> 00:15:42.342 So understanding that difference between perception, raw data, perspective, the making 00:15:42.342 --> 00:15:47.142 sense of or the editor of that raw data can be a game changer when you're dealing with emotionally 00:15:47.142 --> 00:15:52.022 immature or narcissistic individuals. Because if we talk more about perception, so when you are 00:15:52.022 --> 00:15:55.702 interacting with somebody who has these traits, emotionally immature, narcissistic, 00:15:56.166 --> 00:15:58.902 traits and tendencies. 00:15:57.670 --> 00:16:03.680 Your immediate perceptions will then often be clouded by their actions or their words. 00:16:03.890 --> 00:16:08.560 You might feel disoriented or hurt or even angry based on what they say or do. 00:16:09.328 --> 00:16:13.865 So it's important to remember that these are your own sensory snapshots of the moment, 00:16:14.315 --> 00:16:17.040 reacting to the immediate behavior that you're witnessing. 00:16:17.790 --> 00:16:21.360 Again, that's perception. Perspective. This is where the real magic happens because once you 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:27.449 If you recognize that your perspective then is shaped by your own set of experiences and beliefs, 00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:32.800 then you can use that awareness to distance yourself emotionally from the narcissistic behavior. 00:16:32.800 --> 00:16:36.758 Now, this doesn't mean that you are excusing their actions, and I think that is what can be so difficult, 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.840 because often we still have this visceral or gut reaction that we don't want them to misinterpret us 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.013 or we really need them to understand us, 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:50.760 but that's part of the problem that has kept us in this trauma bond or this intermittent reinforcement 00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:53.367 because we're continuing to try to give them that aha moment. 00:16:54.060 --> 00:16:58.400 Again, it doesn't mean excusing their actions, but rather understanding them in a broader context. 00:16:58.400 --> 00:17:02.864 For example, you might think, all right, this person is attempting to manipulate me, 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.200 because they're trying to feel superior, not necessarily because there's anything wrong with me. 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.012 Now, it still is frustrating. It brings up a lot of emotions, 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.360 but this is part of that, just becoming more aware, going from the we didn't know what we didn't know 00:17:14.360 --> 00:17:18.537 to now we know, but it's still so hard to do, to put these tools into action. 00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:22.957 And this is another one of these tools, understanding this perspective and perception, 00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:26.936 to get us moving more into that, okay, I'm starting to be able to do more than I don't, 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:31.302 which is a really powerful thing because the end of this journey is I have just become, 00:17:31.780 --> 00:17:36.145 and I'm just being and doing, and all those things that come with a yoga mat and a ponytail. 00:17:36.800 --> 00:17:41.840 But now let's flip the script. So their perception, right? People with narcissistic tendencies 00:17:41.840 --> 00:17:45.409 are often highly tuned into their own perceptions, it's a nice way to put it, 00:17:45.840 --> 00:17:47.506 but not necessarily anybody else's. 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:52.008 They are acutely aware of how things benefit them or feed their ego. 00:17:52.420 --> 00:17:57.080 And then so if we look at their perspective, then their perspective is pretty typically self-centered, 00:17:57.080 --> 00:18:02.360 framed entirely around their own needs and experiences, even if that need is to put you in the one down position. 00:18:03.017 --> 00:18:16.800 And to put them in this one up position or that need still comes from a place of from what it feels like to be them that if you are having a different experience than that then there's there's no room for that so then if you have a different experience than in their mind. 00:18:17.286 --> 00:18:19.383 You're telling them that their experience is wrong. 00:18:20.022 --> 00:18:25.874 Because that's where they can't sit with any discomfort and that discomfort comes and having to take in somebody else's experience. 00:18:26.432 --> 00:18:30.607 So, this makes it extremely challenging for the narcissist or the emotionally immature 00:18:30.607 --> 00:18:33.407 person to empathize with others. 00:18:33.407 --> 00:18:37.187 And I talked a lot last week about confabulation and what can be really difficult is they can 00:18:37.187 --> 00:18:43.212 confabulate or change their own internal narrative or fill in the gaps of memory in real time 00:18:43.275 --> 00:18:46.228 to make sure that it is not what you are saying. 00:18:46.687 --> 00:18:49.406 You are wrong and I think that's what can be so challenging. 00:18:50.247 --> 00:18:54.407 So understanding this dynamic then it helps you approach interactions with more of this 00:18:54.407 --> 00:18:59.687 level of emotional armor because you become better at setting boundaries even 00:18:59.687 --> 00:19:03.047 with the acceptance that a boundary is a challenge for the emotionally immature, 00:19:03.702 --> 00:19:07.727 and it doesn't mean they're gonna go okay my bad that's a very fine boundary 00:19:07.727 --> 00:19:11.367 you have said I will respect that that isn't the way it works but you still 00:19:11.367 --> 00:19:16.487 need to start learning what that looks like to set a boundary and sometimes 00:19:16.719 --> 00:19:20.447 there's a pre staging before you can get to the boundary and part of it is this, 00:19:20.914 --> 00:19:25.367 of being able to extricate yourself from the crazy-making. So you become better at 00:19:25.367 --> 00:19:28.807 setting boundaries and less likely to get emotionally entangled in their web 00:19:28.807 --> 00:19:31.446 and sometimes that's gonna mean the boundary is gonna be walking away. But. 00:19:32.167 --> 00:19:39.927 You'll realize that their actions and their words are reflections of their skewed perspective. They are not objective truths about you or the world 00:19:39.927 --> 00:19:43.247 and when you can start to recognize that then you don't have as strong of a need 00:19:43.247 --> 00:19:48.967 to defend yourself because it's pretty silly what they're saying. 00:19:47.759 --> 00:20:02.603 So, by being aware of this, it's like an interplay between perception and perspective, you'll find it easier to navigate the tricky relationships, whether that's in your family setting, or whether it's in friendships, or even in a therapeutic environment. 00:20:02.702 --> 00:20:16.179 Kind of what I was talking about with a little bit earlier, even if you start to feel like your own therapist or life coaches is kind of saying, okay, well, that's, you're wrong, you're wrong about that, because it's your experience and you'll be better equipped to maintain your own mental well-being while doing so. 00:20:16.609 --> 00:20:26.207 The reason why this can be so difficult is that all or nothing or black or white thinking, because that is the hallmark calling card of someone who is emotionally immature or narcissistic. 00:20:26.847 --> 00:20:39.603 And it's not just an inability to see another person's perspective, it's like this defensive reflex to interpret, again, an opposing or differing view as a direct attack to their own perspective. 00:20:40.188 --> 00:20:58.535 So I tried to jot down some notes here on, like, I've become very fascinated with what the narcissist thought process is, and for the next little bit here, let's just say narcissist, but I hope you know I mean that entire mouthful of the narcissist or the person who has narcissistic traits and tendencies, or who is on the range or scale of emotional immaturity. That's a mouthful. 00:20:58.976 --> 00:21:05.223 For the narcissist, perspectives aren't just viewpoints, they're battles to be won, which is so fascinating when you look at that. 00:21:05.637 --> 00:21:13.064 So everything is a ground war. So when you share a perspective that differs from them, then they feel compelled, it is a reflex, to then one-up you. 00:21:13.550 --> 00:21:22.120 And they may not be conscious of this drive, because it's like this automatic setting, to maintain their fragile ego, because the primary concern is not understanding you better, 00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:26.396 or finding common ground, which I think is probably what you're going and looking for. 00:21:26.973 --> 00:21:33.729 It's about asserting that their perspective is the correct one and by implication then that means that yours is wrong. 00:21:34.607 --> 00:21:41.689 But so when a narcissist enters this mode Then that's where they might employ a lot of different tactics to assert this dominance or take this one-up position, 00:21:42.232 --> 00:21:49.406 Such as our greatest hits gaslighting deflection victim status or maybe just a full-on outright denial of the facts and, 00:21:50.082 --> 00:21:55.009 These these maneuvers really aren't even about the topic at hand because that can lead us to figuring out 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:56.671 okay, let me think of a different way to put this. 00:21:57.089 --> 00:22:01.956 They're not about that. They're about maintaining a power dynamic that keeps them up on the top. 00:22:02.811 --> 00:22:14.099 I think it goes without saying of why is that a problem? Well, because this kind of behavior creates this toxic emotional environment where, honest to goodness, meaningful conversations, being heard and understood, 00:22:14.370 --> 00:22:18.781 having growth together and your relationships is nearly impossible. 00:22:19.438 --> 00:22:26.577 And then that can leave you as the person that is seeking to be heard and wanting this genuine, authentic connection where we both feel heard and understood, 00:22:27.099 --> 00:22:31.159 and we're having these shared experiences and we're processing emotion together. 00:22:31.726 --> 00:22:37.841 Then that can start to make you feel diminished or gaslit. This is honestly when one can start to feel 00:22:37.841 --> 00:22:41.841 emotionally abused over time because they start to lose their entire sense of self 00:22:41.841 --> 00:22:43.591 of why is it so difficult to be me? 00:22:43.961 --> 00:22:50.055 Why is it so difficult to try to get my point across? Why is it so difficult to get somebody just to care and to show love? 00:22:50.541 --> 00:22:54.241 So what can you do? I feel like understanding this whole scenario, 00:22:54.241 --> 00:22:59.606 this whole pattern, waking up to what that emotional immaturity or narcissism looks like in the relationship, 00:22:59.921 --> 00:23:03.414 is it really is the first step to starting to protect yourself. 00:23:04.001 --> 00:23:09.061 And I was very selective about saying protect yourself because it's not solving the puzzle 00:23:09.061 --> 00:23:12.110 so that now you can be heard and understood by this person. 00:23:12.601 --> 00:23:15.641 But once you recognize what's happening, then you start to have these strategies 00:23:15.641 --> 00:23:21.013 to either disengage from the conversation, or again, we go back to trying to set healthy boundaries, 00:23:21.481 --> 00:23:25.101 and you won't, most likely you will not change their all or nothing thinking, 00:23:25.101 --> 00:23:28.458 but you can protect yourself from these harmful effects of this emotional abuse. 00:23:28.801 --> 00:23:32.752 It also helps you to remind yourself that their need to one-up isn't about you, 00:23:33.101 --> 00:23:36.241 it's about their insecurities, it's about their emotional limitations, 00:23:36.241 --> 00:23:40.080 it's about their need to get this validation at any cost. 00:23:40.701 --> 00:23:46.238 And that's where I do say that even this can start to feel like you are now self-becoming. 00:23:46.881 --> 00:23:49.321 Validate yourself, because you start to recognize, 00:23:49.321 --> 00:23:55.081 okay, I am okay, I am starting to make some progress or growth because I'm starting to see 00:23:55.081 --> 00:23:57.788 how patternistic this behavior is. 00:23:58.281 --> 00:24:00.321 So yeah, so then awareness of this black and white thinking, 00:24:00.321 --> 00:24:05.602 it's crucial if you're trying to maintain your own emotional well-being while dealing with the narcissist. 00:24:06.161 --> 00:24:11.606 Because just please remember, you can't control their perspective as they are trying to control yours, 00:24:12.141 --> 00:24:17.971 but understanding it can help you navigate these interactions more sanely, more safely. 00:24:18.481 --> 00:24:22.961 Let me spend a little time talking about interdependence and codependence, because I think these things 00:24:22.961 --> 00:24:26.037 are pretty crucial in understanding the dynamics of the relationship as well. 00:24:26.441 --> 00:24:29.125 Because I like to say that we all start out, and if you're watching on the video, 00:24:29.401 --> 00:24:31.330 we're meshed and codependent. 00:24:31.761 --> 00:24:34.697 That comes from our childhood abandonment and attachment issues. 00:24:35.121 --> 00:24:39.481 Now we just agree with everything and everything's gonna work out and we all love the same things, 00:24:39.481 --> 00:24:41.449 even if I kinda really don't, but I'm probably sure I will. 00:24:42.124 --> 00:24:48.281 So then as we go through life and we have our different experiences, we start to become interdependent, pulling my hands away, and differentiated. 00:24:48.803 --> 00:24:59.282 Where one person ends, the other begins, but in the middle is a lot of invalidation, and that can be really uncomfortable, which causes us typically to jump back into enmeshment and codependency, and that narcissist needs you to be enmeshed. 00:24:59.831 --> 00:25:06.025 They need you to be codependent because that's how they get their breath of life. They must have another person to interact with them. 00:25:06.448 --> 00:25:15.315 I was talking to someone in my family that I care deeply about, and they were talking about a really emotionally, in my opinion, emotionally immature person at their work. 00:25:15.630 --> 00:25:28.639 And I feel like that person, because the person that I'm talking about is so kind, you know, such a kind soul, that then it's almost like this emotionally immature narcissistic person says, 00:25:28.900 --> 00:25:39.999 Hey, I'm gonna go walk around for a little bit. So I need you to exist beside me so that I can tell you how amazing I am, tell you how dumb you are, make myself feel better so that I can exist. Come along with me, why don't you? 00:25:40.647 --> 00:25:50.451 And it's just such a toxic situation because this person was even telling me that somebody else at their office has already said, yeah, I'm not interacting with that person. 00:25:51.054 --> 00:26:00.750 And I would imagine it's because they've set this boundary and they've said, I'm not doing that because that's going to zap my own sense of self and my own strength, which is a boundary. 00:26:01.110 --> 00:26:05.494 Let's go back to breaking down codependence and then interdependent. 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:12.921 So codependence, it's like two people are leaning in so hard into each other that if one moves, then they both fall. 00:26:13.533 --> 00:26:16.891 And this kind of relationship starts off feeling intensely supportive. 00:26:17.071 --> 00:26:19.528 And I think this is super important to acknowledge. 00:26:20.293 --> 00:26:25.343 Because they feel intensely connected and supportive, and it can be especially comforting 00:26:25.343 --> 00:26:31.343 when both parties are going through tough times, or they both come from difficult backgrounds, 00:26:31.343 --> 00:26:35.423 which is what people often find. Because remember, that pathologically kind person 00:26:35.423 --> 00:26:40.063 also had to internalize their emotions. They're pathologically kind, maybe more highly sensitive 00:26:40.063 --> 00:26:44.943 and empathetic because they maybe weren't heard or seen as well growing up, so they've had to do 00:26:44.943 --> 00:26:49.903 a good job of reading the room, trying to, not wanting to rock the boat. Then that emotionally 00:26:49.903 --> 00:26:54.943 immature narcissistic person is coming into a relationship just being the, that love-bombing 00:26:54.943 --> 00:26:59.583 concept of they are just being the best version of themselves because they want that validation 00:26:59.583 --> 00:27:04.943 so bad and that's what forms that human magnet syndrome. So in this codependent relationship, 00:27:04.943 --> 00:27:09.183 both people rely heavily on each other for emotional support and what that looks like 00:27:09.183 --> 00:27:13.542 like early in the relationship, that support, the validation, even their identity, 00:27:14.163 --> 00:27:18.754 and the line between, I would say, me and us gets blurred. 00:27:19.423 --> 00:27:26.783 And why I like to show that we're codependent and enmeshed, almost, I think, everybody, when they're first 00:27:26.783 --> 00:27:30.970 in relationships or getting married or connecting with another human being, 00:27:31.463 --> 00:27:35.183 because I wanna just normalize that, that there's nothing wrong, that we're just being, 00:27:35.183 --> 00:27:36.390 we're just showing up that way. 00:27:36.703 --> 00:27:40.045 So I think it's really fascinating to just take a look at it that way. 00:27:40.383 --> 00:27:45.543 So interdependence, now on the flip side, interdependence is more like having two strong pillars 00:27:45.543 --> 00:27:48.696 that are supporting the same structure, like the relationship, the marriage. 00:27:49.143 --> 00:27:53.260 Each pillar can stand on its own, but it contributes to something greater when it's combined. 00:27:53.983 --> 00:27:58.223 So in these interdependent relationships, each person has a clear sense of self 00:27:58.223 --> 00:27:59.724 and they have personal boundaries. 00:28:00.463 --> 00:28:04.729 And so then the concepts around emotional and practical support, they're mutual, 00:28:05.223 --> 00:28:08.343 because neither person is so deeply embedded 00:28:08.343 --> 00:28:13.123 the other person that they lose their individuality. And that can seem crazy at first when people 00:28:13.123 --> 00:28:16.183 get married and early in their relationship because they feel like we're supposed to just 00:28:16.183 --> 00:28:20.823 be all for one and one for all and enmeshed and two halves of a whole. But what we're 00:28:20.823 --> 00:28:26.023 trying to get to is two complete holes that are together. So I have this one's one of 00:28:26.023 --> 00:28:31.063 these based on a real story. Meet Sandra and Jason. So they fell in love right after high 00:28:31.063 --> 00:28:36.423 school. They each escaped pretty physically abusive homes and their love story was like 00:28:36.423 --> 00:28:41.943 It's like a refuge, two souls battered by life, and they find comfort in each other's struggles. 00:28:42.646 --> 00:28:47.463 So, their codependence in that scenario, it was a strength. It was their shield against the world. 00:28:48.192 --> 00:28:52.423 And you can say, I think honestly, that it probably saved their lives and their sanity 00:28:52.549 --> 00:28:59.143 at a really vulnerable time. So, I do want to show that that can be a, you know, a universe 00:28:59.143 --> 00:29:04.023 thing, a God thing. All these things happen for a reason thing, that we find ourselves in these 00:29:04.023 --> 00:29:08.983 relationships at this time, and they save our lives. Then fast forward a decade or more, 00:29:08.983 --> 00:29:13.223 and both people have reached a more stable emotional state in this scenario, 00:29:13.223 --> 00:29:18.178 partly due to therapy, partly due to the stability that they initially found in each other. 00:29:18.881 --> 00:29:23.832 But then they also started to feel a little bit confined by the same codependence that once comforted him. 00:29:24.057 --> 00:29:32.636 Sandra wanted to pursue a career in graphic design, and Jason had jumped into just some journeyman work and wanted to go back to school. 00:29:33.239 --> 00:29:40.513 So recognizing this need that they had for growth, they start this journey toward interdependence, which is where the therapist jumped in. 00:29:41.107 --> 00:29:43.736 And so Sandra gets into a design course, 00:29:44.087 --> 00:30:06.637 Jason starts taking night classes, they start to cheer each other on, they're each other's biggest fans, and again, this is real, but they also give each other space to grow and pursue individual dreams, but it wasn't like it was super easy, it just came naturally, this is what we had to work on in couples counseling, using the four pillars, they both felt heard and understood, it was uncomfortable, and it wasn't easy, because sometimes they almost missed the intensity from their earlier years, 00:30:07.052 --> 00:30:15.586 And that's where you feel like they're almost addicted of sorts to the enmeshment or the codependency because it served them so well for so long. 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:23.085 But I remember talking about this concept of that for a tree to grow tall, the roots must have room to spread out. 00:30:23.733 --> 00:30:29.485 So understanding that it's not just okay, but it's necessary to move toward interdependence is a key. 00:30:30.116 --> 00:30:36.597 Because you become a more rounded individual with passions and dreams and friendships that are outside of your partnership. 00:30:36.984 --> 00:30:40.747 And it doesn't mean that you're leaving the other person or you're going to step out on them. 00:30:41.035 --> 00:30:48.372 And then paradoxically, the more independently strong each person becomes, this is the part that I think is so hard to wrap our heads around. 00:30:48.705 --> 00:30:55.403 But the more robust and resilient than their joint life adventure can be, because now they're going to jump into the world of shared experience. 00:30:55.862 --> 00:31:05.206 Not okay what do you think i don't know what do you think her i don't want anybody mad as we're all just be in and do it and have an amazing experience even if it's not something we like to do. 00:31:05.593 --> 00:31:09.788 Because we can go there with curiosity not trying to manage somebody else's emotions. 00:31:10.185 --> 00:31:20.483 Or for the immature one not wanting to make sure that this person knows that i'm the best at whatever we're doing i don't want to do those things and man and we better have plenty of sex while we're here too because after all vacation. 00:31:21.086 --> 00:31:25.650 I mean, there's so much there that's not about just being and doing and sharing experiences with each other. 00:31:26.497 --> 00:31:29.450 So becoming interdependent doesn't mean that you love each other any less. 00:31:29.450 --> 00:31:32.810 It means that you're creating a relationship where each person is their very best self. 00:31:33.446 --> 00:31:40.690 Each person is their best self. And in doing so, you're enhancing the quality of love and support that you can offer each other. 00:31:41.260 --> 00:31:44.570 Which again, is not something that I think we know from our factory settings. 00:31:45.447 --> 00:32:01.029 So for Sandra and Jason and anybody else that's hearing this, it's so important to remember that it's not only okay, but it's necessary for the health of a long-term relationship to, I think, shift from codependence to interdependence. 00:32:01.633 --> 00:32:25.912 So, now let's bring in my good old friend differentiation and talk about how I really felt like that becomes the cornerstone or was the cornerstone for, we'll just go back into the world of Sandra and Jason and how it became the cornerstone for moving from codependence to interdependence because remember, differentiation, it is basically this process of becoming more you, developing your own thoughts and your own feelings and identity separate from your partner. 00:32:26.434 --> 00:32:35.580 It's the ability to not, we always talk about with differentiation to remain yourself, but almost to find yourself while still being emotionally connected to another person. 00:32:36.246 --> 00:32:47.256 So this is this key in transitioning from a codependent relationship where identities are enmeshed to interdependent, where both individuals stand alone together but choose to stand together. 00:32:47.526 --> 00:32:56.474 So when things come up, if Jason said something, then that brought up emotion for Sandra, and that was her opportunity to say, is there truth in that? 00:32:56.699 --> 00:33:04.946 And I'm having a reaction. That's a me thing. So I can't tell him to not do that because that's me wanting to get rid of my discomfort by controlling him. 00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:13.137 It's that happens, it becomes a me thing in a positive way. Not like a, that's a you thing, but because that has to come from within. 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:21.078 So, I got a couple of examples. One was about weekend plans. So, before, we'll say, BD, before differentiation. 00:33:21.537 --> 00:33:27.685 So, whenever Sandra wanted to spend the weekend painting, Jason used to feel neglected and he would get really grumpy and emotionally immature. 00:33:28.333 --> 00:33:33.672 And Sandra would start to sense his mood, she would drop her plans, then she would go over and caretake him, 00:33:34.239 --> 00:33:37.651 and that would lead to resentment on her part, but he would get his needs met. 00:33:38.155 --> 00:33:43.577 So to him, anxiety managed, to her, resentment. But then he feels good. Now he wants to go ride bikes. 00:33:43.577 --> 00:33:47.417 Say, I feel great. You want to go out to dinner? What do you want to do now? Now, after differentiation, 00:33:47.417 --> 00:33:51.017 Sandra tells Jason she's planning to paint over the weekend and understands if he's disappointed 00:33:51.017 --> 00:33:56.377 because he had not shared that he had any thing going on or that this is what he wanted to do 00:33:56.377 --> 00:34:02.217 for the weekend. So Jason recognizes his feelings. Yeah, I am disappointed. He's still alive and he 00:34:02.217 --> 00:34:06.617 was able to own that and express that. But then he decides then, okay, well, I will use that time 00:34:06.617 --> 00:34:11.017 to catch up on some reading because he had started back to school. They both engage in activities 00:34:11.017 --> 00:34:16.697 that they love, that they need to do. Then they meet up for dinner, they feel fulfilled. 00:34:17.522 --> 00:34:21.672 And then they share their experience. What was the daylight painting? What did you read today? 00:34:22.032 --> 00:34:27.017 And it wasn't like Jason showing up being all down, wanting her to say, I'm sorry, you know, 00:34:27.017 --> 00:34:33.222 I should have done whatever you wanted to do. That is that emotional immaturity and that codependence. 00:34:33.897 --> 00:34:47.238 So, let's do another scenario. Dealing with family. So, before BD, before differentiation, Jason's mom had a tendency to be, we'll say it very kindly, overly critical, especially towards Sandra, which is really difficult, but that is the thing. 00:34:47.761 --> 00:34:59.013 And Jason would never intervene, and he kind of left Sandra feeling unsupported. She felt like she was alone on an island. So then after differentiation, he realizes, okay, this is a pretty big emotional burden on Sandra. 00:34:59.094 --> 00:35:02.407 So, he talks to his mom about setting some boundaries, being respectful. 00:35:02.407 --> 00:35:07.367 Sandra appreciates the effort, and she does feel seen and understood, and Jason set a 00:35:07.367 --> 00:35:10.932 boundary with his mom without damaging his relationship with her. 00:35:11.687 --> 00:35:16.235 And then at that point, if she doesn't respect the boundary, meaning the mom, it's a her issue. 00:35:16.865 --> 00:35:20.047 And that's actually one more scenario, because this one had to do with career change. 00:35:20.047 --> 00:35:23.031 This was pretty big. This one was probably more emotionally charged. 00:35:23.567 --> 00:35:28.847 So BD, before differentiation, when Sandra got an offer for a job that would require 00:35:28.847 --> 00:35:33.727 them to move, they honestly both felt pretty anxious because Jason saw it as a threat to 00:35:33.727 --> 00:35:37.507 his career. Now the reality, and this is where the differentiated piece comes into play, 00:35:37.930 --> 00:35:41.367 it's a little bit of what career? Sandra had this opportunity and Jason was still in 00:35:41.367 --> 00:35:45.567 school. He wasn't even really sure what he wanted to do, but he still saw it as a threat 00:35:45.567 --> 00:35:49.795 to his future career, but that was his immaturity wanting to take control of the situation because 00:35:50.065 --> 00:35:51.533 a lot of different things came up for him. 00:35:51.884 --> 00:35:56.087 It felt like a kept man, as his grandpa had said, meaning that, wait, she was going to 00:35:56.087 --> 00:36:00.407 make money and they were gonna move for her, what would people think? Who cares. 00:36:01.210 --> 00:36:09.207 But Sandra also felt guilty for even considering the move. So, after differentiation AD, Sandra and Jason, thanks to the help of a therapist, have 00:36:09.207 --> 00:36:16.387 an amazing, open, high-charged conversation, let's say hypothetically using four pillars. Jason's able to acknowledge the importance of the 00:36:16.387 --> 00:36:18.767 opportunity for Sandra. He knows that she's not trying to hurt him. He can't 00:36:18.767 --> 00:36:22.567 tell her that she's wrong because it is the opportunity. Those are her feelings. 00:36:22.567 --> 00:36:29.027 So he gets to say, take me on your train of thought. Tell me more. Help me understand and he's able to acknowledge that what an opportunity for her but he 00:36:29.367 --> 00:36:32.619 shares his concerns without making her feel guilty because he doesn't have he's. 00:36:33.546 --> 00:36:36.727 Just taking her on his train of thought and and he recognizes and acknowledges 00:36:36.727 --> 00:36:40.567 that it might be a little bit immature and so she respects that viewpoint she 00:36:40.567 --> 00:36:44.142 looks into or not she 00:36:43.259 --> 00:36:48.364 She respects that and she starts to even look at, is there an opportunity for remote work options? 00:36:48.976 --> 00:36:56.322 And they end up, it is one of those live happily ever after negotiated compromise that honors her current career and his potential career. 00:36:56.898 --> 00:36:59.085 And they're still being and doing as we speak. 00:36:59.715 --> 00:37:03.920 So differentiation allowed them to address the problem without it escalating to an emotional tug of war. 00:37:04.388 --> 00:37:09.879 So they were able to find a solution that didn't really sacrifice one for the other. They both felt seen, heard, differentiated. 00:37:10.248 --> 00:37:18.935 So by embracing the concept of differentiation, Sandra and Jason don't lose the emotional connection that's always been their relationship's strong point, even though it started as codependent. 00:37:19.547 --> 00:37:22.851 And instead, they strengthen it by allowing room for individual growth. 00:37:23.364 --> 00:37:25.390 And that individual growth leads to growth as a couple. 00:37:25.921 --> 00:37:29.495 It doesn't just fortify their relationship, but their personal selves as well. 00:37:29.846 --> 00:37:36.895 So that tool of differentiation is not a wedge driving them apart, but not good with art examples, but it is more like a chisel, 00:37:37.462 --> 00:37:44.790 that's then carving out two intricate pillars that can support a more complex, enriching, and stable life structure for each other and together. 00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:51.515 So I want to move next into a question from a colleague that they also work in this world of emotional immaturity. 00:37:52.127 --> 00:37:57.006 So they said, hey, Tony, what's the difference between greyrocking and giving somebody the silent treatment? 00:37:57.618 --> 00:38:01.710 They said that they have a client that greyrocks her husband, so when the client's husband 00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:05.504 does the same thing as the client, she calls it the silent treatment and is mad. 00:38:05.950 --> 00:38:09.159 So what's the difference? Because the husband feels there is a double standard here. 00:38:09.350 --> 00:38:13.111 She can do one thing, but when he does the very same thing, he is in trouble with her. 00:38:13.830 --> 00:38:18.512 And I think this is a very important thing to really understand the difference between 00:38:18.710 --> 00:38:22.572 greyrocking and the silent treatment, because the way that they present is going to look 00:38:22.680 --> 00:38:28.210 pretty similar, but this is a huge part of navigating the dynamics of a relationship with a narcissist 00:38:28.210 --> 00:38:30.590 or somebody that is incredibly emotionally immature. 00:38:30.590 --> 00:38:34.710 So let's talk about gray rocking. Gray rocking, it's a technique that is, 00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:39.510 I like to advise it for people who are dealing with narcissists or other manipulative individuals. 00:38:39.510 --> 00:38:41.612 So when you employ the gray rocking method. 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:48.350 You essentially become very intentionally uninteresting, unresponsive, as emotionally 00:38:48.350 --> 00:38:53.603 neutral as a gray rock. I will not identify this person, but growing up, there was somebody that 00:38:53.756 --> 00:38:58.030 some of our friend group called this person. They, in essence, had the personality of a can 00:38:58.275 --> 00:39:02.912 of paint. So I often, if I could rename gray rocking, it would be paint canning. I guess 00:39:03.150 --> 00:39:08.430 gray rocking sounds better. But this tactic is used to protect yourself from the emotional 00:39:08.484 --> 00:39:14.254 manipulation and the provocations of the narcissist. Gray rocking is what leads to 00:39:14.444 --> 00:39:18.670 these fantastic, amazing popcorn moments where you're just sitting back and watching the show. 00:39:18.981 --> 00:39:23.293 You're pretty uninterested because this is now where the narcissist has to get you to react. 00:39:23.878 --> 00:39:27.506 Because if you don't, then they're not going to get their supply. Now, they will still find a way 00:39:27.884 --> 00:39:31.134 in their minds to get the upper hand. So in the scenario that we're talking about, 00:39:31.584 --> 00:39:36.670 let's say that the husband has become passive aggressive. So the wife chooses not to engage or 00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:42.570 respond to his provocations, then by doing that, she's grayrocking and she denies him 00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:44.990 the emotional reaction that he might be seeking. 00:39:44.990 --> 00:39:48.742 So in that scenario, grayrocking is a form of self-preservation. 00:39:48.910 --> 00:39:55.044 It's used to maintain emotional distance and to avoid getting drawn into unnecessary conflicts. 00:39:55.230 --> 00:39:59.140 So this is where when you are employing this grayrock method, then you are sitting back 00:39:59.302 --> 00:40:02.590 and you're watching the show and here comes your popcorn moment. 00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:05.063 Grab a bite because it's probably going to be a decent show. 00:40:05.470 --> 00:40:10.050 Start off with anger, it may move into manipulation, it may move into tears or sadness, back to 00:40:10.390 --> 00:40:14.254 comedy, to victimhood, and all you're doing is greyrocking. 00:40:14.804 --> 00:40:19.654 It isn't, so grayrocking isn't about giving somebody the silent treatment or punishing them. 00:40:19.881 --> 00:40:22.104 It is something that is done for self-protection. 00:40:22.321 --> 00:40:28.654 Now, the silent treatment is a manipulation tactic that is often employed by narcissists and emotionally immature individuals 00:40:28.654 --> 00:40:33.654 because the silent treatment is deliberately ignoring somebody or refusing to communicate with them 00:40:33.654 --> 00:40:37.264 or withholding attention and affection as a form of punishment. 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:43.654 So, narcissists and emotionally immature people, they use the silent treatment to gain control, to evoke a reaction. 00:40:43.654 --> 00:40:52.654 It's one of the many buttons that they are trying to press in order to get the reaction so that they can inflict this emotional pain on their target or get that control. 00:40:52.654 --> 00:41:00.654 Because that's a way for the narcissist to express disapproval or disappointment or anger without having to address the issue directly. 00:41:00.654 --> 00:41:04.496 Because heaven forbid that they may actually have to take ownership or accountability of something. 00:41:04.965 --> 00:41:09.494 So, in this scenario again, when the wife doesn't give the husband the emotional reaction 00:41:09.494 --> 00:41:13.858 that he's looking for by grey-rocking, then he might resort to the silent treatment as 00:41:14.294 --> 00:41:19.053 a way to regain that control and then to manipulate her into feeling guilty or anxious. 00:41:19.368 --> 00:41:25.814 That is his attempt to shift the power dynamics and it makes her feel uncertain and then eager to fix things. 00:41:26.374 --> 00:41:31.014 So the silent treatment can go from hours to days because if that is something that's 00:41:31.014 --> 00:41:35.734 worked in the past, then the narcissist will employ that. The main difference between the two is their intent. 00:41:35.815 --> 00:41:38.074 Gray rocking, again, self-preservation. 00:41:38.174 --> 00:41:42.174 It's a tactic that's employed to protect oneself from further harm or manipulation. 00:41:42.174 --> 00:41:46.774 So the individual using it isn't trying to control or harm the other person. 00:41:46.774 --> 00:41:48.094 They're trying to protect themselves. 00:41:48.643 --> 00:41:52.674 On the other hand, the silent treatment is employed to manipulate, control, and 00:41:52.982 --> 00:41:54.450 inflict emotional pain on the other person. 00:41:55.098 --> 00:41:59.302 So with gray rocking, the focus is inward. It's about maintaining one's emotional balance. 00:41:59.779 --> 00:42:01.508 It's about not getting drawn into the conflict. 00:42:01.580 --> 00:42:06.108 It's about sitting back, grabbing a bite of popcorn, hopefully with extra butter, and watching the show. 00:42:06.254 --> 00:42:09.694 So with the silent treatment, the focus is outward, because it's about affecting the 00:42:09.694 --> 00:42:12.499 other person's emotions and their behaviors. 00:42:12.714 --> 00:42:18.189 And then the duration, if you look at it that way, grayrocking tends to be situational, and it's short-term. 00:42:18.374 --> 00:42:24.254 It's a tool. It's used in specific instances where that individual feels the need to protect themselves. 00:42:24.254 --> 00:42:28.919 They've been in this rodeo many times, and they're about to get tossed off the bull. 00:42:28.982 --> 00:42:31.359 I'm not a big rodeo guy, but I think that probably makes sense. 00:42:31.914 --> 00:42:36.544 So they need to protect themselves. So the silent treatment then, that can be prolonged. 00:42:36.874 --> 00:42:39.839 That can sometimes, again, it can last days, weeks, even longer. 00:42:40.354 --> 00:42:44.954 And that causes prolonged emotional distress to the recipient, to the pathologically kind, 00:42:44.954 --> 00:42:48.679 to the nice person, because in the past, that button has worked. 00:42:48.894 --> 00:42:50.300 That's why the narcissist is going to it. 00:42:50.914 --> 00:42:56.914 So having an idea of these tactics and their implications, it's really critical for anybody that is navigating 00:42:56.914 --> 00:43:00.034 a relationship with a narcissist or somebody that's emotionally immature 00:43:00.034 --> 00:43:01.874 because it helps you recognize more 00:43:01.874 --> 00:43:03.173 of these manipulative behaviors, 00:43:03.594 --> 00:43:09.074 and it gives you tools that you can employ and use as a way to start to grow, 00:43:09.074 --> 00:43:10.645 even within a relationship like that. 00:43:11.554 --> 00:43:17.744 Okay, so what do we learn today? I feel like this is if you're happen to be a so I married an axe murderer fan 00:43:17.744 --> 00:43:20.424 That is a movie by Mike Myers. I just listened to a. 00:43:21.106 --> 00:43:26.644 Podcast called the rewatchables where they broke that down and it's just one of my I just I love movies 00:43:26.644 --> 00:43:33.244 So the the father the Scottish father also played by Mike Myers and there says, okay, you know, you've stayed your hour 00:43:33.244 --> 00:43:38.364 I won't try to do the Scottish accent, but I feel like there you are. You've stayed the time. I appreciate it 00:43:38.364 --> 00:43:39.947 I hope that you were able to get something 00:43:40.388 --> 00:43:48.761 Helpful from today's episode if there's things here that you like please pass it along if you think it can help somebody else because i think that's a lot of how people are starting to find. 00:43:49.274 --> 00:43:56.674 The emotional maturity in their relationships are people that are sharing podcasts with them are sharing episodes of waking up the narcissism but take away today. 00:43:57.079 --> 00:44:02.876 Perception perspective are not the same thing perception is the raw sensory input that we get from our surroundings. 00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:32.692 Perspective is how we interpret the input through the lens of all of the things that we've been through what it feels like to be us our past experiences our beliefs our values and recognizing that difference can have a profound impact on our relationships but even more so on our own self-awareness even have some action items here's what we can do practice observing without interpreting it's part of that my pre pillar of my four pillars based off of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication of observing without judgment so practice observing without interpreting. 00:44:33.124 --> 00:44:38.724 Next time you find yourself in a disagreement or a charge situation, try to separate what you're actually seeing or hearing, 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:42.244 there's your perception, from what you think it means, the perspective. 00:44:42.693 --> 00:44:44.924 And if you need to, you can jot that down for a little clarity, 00:44:44.924 --> 00:44:51.404 but that will really start to help you see yourself in the context of that moment, which is, that is a mature move, my friends. 00:44:51.924 --> 00:44:56.684 Next, navigating relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals. 00:44:57.223 --> 00:45:02.164 Just remembering, just remember, remember, people with emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits. 00:45:02.705 --> 00:45:06.404 Engage in black-and-white all-or-nothing thinking, making it really hard for them 00:45:06.404 --> 00:45:11.324 to accept different perspectives and just knowing that they often view if you 00:45:11.324 --> 00:45:14.304 have a different perspective or different opinion that you then 00:45:14.732 --> 00:45:18.364 therefore must think that theirs is wrong. Which I know that that isn't what 00:45:18.364 --> 00:45:21.924 you necessarily think but that is how it's interpreted. So understanding that 00:45:21.924 --> 00:45:26.484 can help you set healthy boundaries and protect yourself emotionally. And this is 00:45:26.484 --> 00:45:33.844 where that concept of greyrocking, that technique starts to become pretty powerful. So when you are interacting with an emotionally immature or 00:45:33.844 --> 00:45:36.804 narcissistic person... 00:45:35.465 --> 00:45:44.107 Make yourself pretty emotionally uninteresting to avoid becoming a target of manipulation or control you know this is part of that you'll never give them the aha moment or the epiphany. 00:45:44.620 --> 00:45:50.904 And last but not least this shift from codependence to interdependence through my good friend differentiation. 00:45:51.389 --> 00:45:56.980 And that differentiation is the key to moving from a codependent to an interdependent relationship. 00:45:57.635 --> 00:46:02.635 And if this is something that your partner is not interested in, then that might be some 00:46:02.635 --> 00:46:07.675 of the data you need because you deserve to be in a mutually reciprocal, interdependent, 00:46:08.323 --> 00:46:10.815 relationship, where you feel seen and understood. 00:46:10.815 --> 00:46:15.273 And this does involve developing your own identity, your own thoughts, your own feelings, 00:46:15.555 --> 00:46:18.585 and you can still do that and remain emotionally connected to your partner. 00:46:19.295 --> 00:46:25.643 So start with little acts of differentiation, make separate plans that fulfill what you want to do. 00:46:26.075 --> 00:46:29.795 And yeah, it's going to feel like it's a little selfish, but this goes into raising your emotional 00:46:29.795 --> 00:46:32.170 baseline and that self-care is not selfish. 00:46:32.755 --> 00:46:36.875 But it also needs to, you can make these individual needs, but you can also make time to share 00:46:36.875 --> 00:46:39.561 the experiences with your spouse. 00:46:40.055 --> 00:46:43.635 And I think that would be something if you were both being very intentional about having 00:46:43.635 --> 00:46:49.035 your own separate experience and then coming back with curiosity, then that can be a really 00:46:49.035 --> 00:46:52.995 powerful, differentiated experience. And then it doesn't mean, of course, that if 00:46:52.995 --> 00:47:01.235 you like going along and doing things with your spouse, your friend, your whoever it is, that's a wonderful thing. But do you have your own talents and 00:47:01.235 --> 00:47:04.635 hobbies and sense of self? Because that would be something to really take a look 00:47:04.902 --> 00:47:07.995 at. So if you have questions or thoughts or anything else, feel free to send them 00:47:07.995 --> 00:47:10.799 my way and we'll see you next time on Waking Up The Narcissist. 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:22.932 Music.