Music.
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 93 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host
Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of a variety
of podcasts including The Virtual Couch, Love ADHD, The Mind, The Mirror, and Me,
A Murder on the Couch, some of those I co-host with some friends and family, and
I would just recommend that you go right to the show notes, go to the link tree,
and sign up for my newsletter because that is where I'm just gonna get all the
information out so we can jump right to the episodes. And you can also go to Tony
overbay.com by the time you hear this or in the not too distant future I've got a big update to
the website and it will feature the courses and books and podcasts and hopefully a nice way to go
search through the four or five hundred total episodes and the variety of mental health topics.
But today I want to get right to the topic. We're going to talk about perception versus
perspective which I think is a really key thing to understand and if you can tell I'm trying to
to be a little more intentional about recognizing what emotional immaturity or narcissism looks
like in your relationship, whether that's with your relationship with a spouse or a,
co-worker, a religious institution, a sibling, an adult sibling, a parent, you name it.
And I also am trying to weave in there what healthy relationships look like because I
I recognize, or one of the most common questions that I get from listeners is...
When we don't know what we don't know, maybe we don't know that we are supposed to be able to have our own thoughts and opinions and that this concept of being interdependent, we'll talk about that a little bit today too.
That what that even means because it can feel normal or familiar to be codependent to somebody who is emotionally immature, so says the pathologically kind person.
So, let's dive into that. We're also going to, I've got a question about gray rocking
versus the silent treatment that I will weave into the end of today's episode. And then
as always, I want your comments, I want your questions. I've had a lot of emails lately
and I just want those of you to know that if you have sent me emails, especially people
have really laid out a lot of heartfelt stories and I still am getting poems and I'm getting
a lot of people that are really expressing themselves and I'm trying to figure out a
way to be able to really share a lot more of those emails and the the poetry. And if you are interested
still in the women's group or the men's group, please reach out and let me know through the
website or just write to contact at tonyoverbay.com or info at tonyoverbay.com. We'll get you that
information. So I want to start off today by sharing a letter which is just one of my favorite
things to do. And this one is not based off of a true story. This is a legitimate letter from
from somebody that gave me permission to read this.
She says, hi there, I've been a fan of your podcast for months and I just wanted to say thank you.
I've been carrying around so much confusion and pain and your episodes have been a sort of lifeline for me.
I've wanted to write in forever, but I couldn't shake off the guilt
of feeling like I'm betraying my husband by doing so.
But I'm at a breaking point and I need help navigating this mess.
My husband's favorite phrase is, your perception is your reality.
He says it whenever we have a disagreement or when I call him out on something that he said
done that hurts me. It's his go-to line, and the implication is always that if my
perception is wrong, then that's on me, not him.
He has used this phrase in two very distinct scenarios that left me feeling utterly confused and powerless.
Let me pause before we get to those two scenarios and this concept of where the implication is that if her perception is wrong.
And I did an episode this week on the virtual couch that I would love for you to take a moment and go listen to or maybe right after this,
because there's a lot of information that's coming out in the therapy world right now.
Some people that I've actually had interactions with or I've worked with people that have worked
with these therapists, that's Jodi Hildebrand and then in the Ruby Franke Eight Passengers
YouTube channel and the allegations of child abuse.
And there's just a lot going on right now in the world of mental health of people
that have just felt like they have all the answers as the practitioner and they're the ones
that can determine if somebody is good or bad,
light or dark, or pose judgment, telling people that no, you don't even know,
this is what you're doing, this is how you're feeling,
and not just having that person feel heard or understood.
And I feel like that is, in my opinion, that is incredibly emotionally immature
and narcissistic behavior from somebody that is in a position to help other people.
And that is somebody that is coming to them so vulnerable, and then you are, I just can't imagine doing that
to somebody as a therapist.
But the reason I say that is just even this concept of someone else is telling,
that this husband is telling the wife, hey, so your perception is wrong.
Which, break that down, that's one of the most ludicrous things I can even think of.
So he really is that special that he knows what her perception is better than she does,
and therefore then can be judge, jury, and executioner
on her perception, without curiosity, or forget the without curiosity,
that that's his mindset in general, that he gets to be the person who deems
if she is right or wrong.
I think you're wrong, and you don't even realize you are.
Talk about that, oh, it's my pre-pillar. It's off of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication,
that observation and judgment.
He makes the observation, makes the judgment, and now if you say anything other than you are right,
whatever you just told me is absolutely correct. I'm not even aware of the things
that I am feeling or doing or saying.
If she doesn't just completely agree, then he gets to even say, see, look at that,
you don't even know yourself, because I do.
I know you better than you know yourself, which is just insane, it really is.
So please go check out that episode on the virtual couch.
Okay, and one more fun fact, actually, about that episode on the virtual couch.
There's a software that I use, this is gonna seem like such a tangent, but it's just fascinating because I am intrigued by the world of artificial intelligence, it's here, so let's take a look at it, let's see what we can do with it.
And the software that I use to edit and take out the uhs and the ums, it's just a powerful piece of software called Descript.
And it has a brand new feature that you can not look at the camera, and then you can do this eye correction and it will then make it look like you're looking at the camera.
So I went on the beginning of the virtual couch episode and I said, Hey, I've already filmed the episode, but please, if you've ever not, please go to the YouTube channel.
And of course, I would love it if you subscribe, but just look at it's a little bit creepy because all of a sudden it looks like I'm just dead staring the camera all the time when in reality, I was looking around looking at notes, but but I wasn't.
But then the most fascinating thing, I get an email late last night from YouTube, and it's the first time I've ever been taken off or violating some sort of policy.
So I'm not even sure what I violated, but I'll figure that out.
I'll put the link in the show notes here as well with this eye correction because it's
just it's it's fascinating to see it's it's artificial intelligence edits. I know it said
it's infancy but it can literally make it look like I am never looking away from the
camera which I think it actually needs to build in there some blinking or looking away
because it just looks like I am dead staring the camera for 45 minutes for that virtual
catch episode. But I digress. She said that her husband has used this phrase in two very
distinct scenarios that left me feeling utterly confused and powerless.
She says, firstly, which I guess I really didn't know that was a word in this context.
Firstly, when he makes jokes at my expense in front of friends and I confront him later, he says,
your perception is your reality. If you think it's humiliating, that's on you,
because I was just being funny.
So there's a lack of empathy there for her comments or for her feelings.
Secondly, when he dismisses my feelings or thoughts, often saying that I'm too sensitive
or emotional, and then throwing the your perception is your reality line to justify
his lack of empathy, I end up doubting myself and I feel so confused. Isn't the whole point
of perception that it's individual? So how can my perception be wrong if it's mine?
And she says the most troubling of all, why does he get to be the one who decides whose
whose perception is right and whose perception is wrong.
She said, it feels like a power play or a way to keep me off balance and doubting myself.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
So I just feel like this letter brings up so many important issues from the confusion
of living with a narcissistic partner to the struggle of trying to trust your own reality.
And it highlights the way that phrases like your perception is your reality can be weaponized
to invalidate somebody's feelings and experiences.
Because this is what is so difficult about the world of narcissism or emotional immaturity
is the concept of the phrase, your perception is your reality,
can absolutely be true.
But it can also then be weaponized. Because, and I say this is where
if you're listening to things with your elbow
of saying, okay, do you hear that?
Do you hear what they just said? Because that applies to you.
Instead of using that as a way to self-reflect. If it brings up some emotion in me,
what is the emotion that it's bringing up in me and why?
And is there any truth in that statement?
But I just wanna say to the people that do send me these kind of emails,
takes a lot of courage to put it all out there, especially when you're trying to
navigate a rocky relationship that leaves you feeling all kinds of the
feelings and just has you questioning your own reality. So I do want to take
some time and unpack this email, but it's gonna lead to a lot of different things that we're gonna talk about today. So first off, the phrase
your perception is your reality. On the surface, it almost sounds philosophical,
but here's where context is absolute king, because to this woman, your husband seems to be using this phrase to then absolve himself from any responsibility for
his actions and how they affect you. And that is not a philosophy, that is a power play.
What I want to do is let's dive into that, the difference between perception, because
that is a word that is used often, perception, and perspective. Those are used interchangeably,
but they can have some very different meaning. And this can get pretty messy when you're
dealing with somebody who tends to see things in black and white, which is the focus of
this podcast, those with narcissistic traits or tendencies or extreme emotional immaturity.
And for those that are waking up to their narcissism again or their emotional maturity,
welcome aboard. I want to say I'm a recovering emotionally immature person. And so it is
absolutely liberating to start to recognize unhealthy coping mechanisms, unhealthy responses,
your own rejection sensitivity and learn how to sit with that discomfort.
And then self-confront and grow and it can be scary but then over time what it will start to feel like to be you
is somebody that feels pretty powerful to be able to take ownership of your own actions and you start to build emotional safety with those that you are in relationships with.
Because you start to learn that it's okay to say my bad or i didn't realize that i did forget.
Or, man, I can only imagine that probably did sound pretty rude. Because it was. Because maybe that was my immaturity reacting or responding and being able to take ownership, not from a victim mentality of saying,
yeah, you're right, I'm a horrible piece of garbage. Because then I still want that person that I'm saying that to to come rescue me and say, no, it's okay. I just need to say, man, I appreciate you bringing that to my attention.
Because over time, that doesn't mean that you have to then take ownership of everything.
Now we're back to the world of the pathologically kind.
It's okay, I'll own it because nobody else will, and at least that'll keep the peace and we can move on.
But I'll take ownership of the things that I do.
I'll self-reflect on the things that are brought to my attention, but I'll start to trust that if
somebody is saying, well, this is how I feel and I think this is what you did, then I can say, okay,
that's, I hear you and tell me more about that.
But ultimately, as this is my life, my human experience, I do get to actually make the call
of if there's any truth in what I'm processing or what I'm going through or hearing.
Okay, and then also, because it is the tool of all tools.
Which is something I think was probably uttered as a slight back when I was in high school.
That guy is a tool of all tools. I'm talking about the good kind of tool today, I promise.
But what is the tool of all tools? Differentiation. And it's my good friend,
and in this context, it is the tool to help you maintain your identity and emotional integrity
in relationships. It's what can move you from a place of codependence to interdependence.
And we're going to get seriously into the nitty-gritty details later in the podcast about
what that looks like to be interdependent and differentiated. So, perception and perspective,
they are two terms that I feel like people often use interchangeably, but they have some real key
differences. If you look at perception, it's like the raw input of your life, your human experience.
So imagine if your senses are cameras and microphones and they are capturing the entire world around you.
Perception, I mean that is what perception is. So perception deals with the immediate
wow, that food smells amazing, or ouch, why is this chair so uncomfortable?
So it's all about how you sense and interpret the world in real time based on what in essence hits your sensory organs.
That's perception so perspective though on the other hand is a little bit more complex because you can think of that then as the editor.
Do this you know this camera of your perception so you can perception is the raw data coming in.
And then perspective is the editor of the camera of the footage that you now have.
So perspective takes that raw input and now it places it in the context of your personal beliefs, your past experiences, your cultural background, all the stuff I love to talk about with acceptance and commitment therapy.
It takes into account your nature, your nurture, your birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, dreams, fears, all those things.
So that is what your perspective takes into play.
It's what you think then when you think, okay, I love the smell of this baked banana
bread. Just again, talking about some aroma because it reminds me of the good old days of growing
up and coming in from playing in the backyard and then there's that smell of banana bread.
What a treat. So again, that is what your perspective is.
Or this chair is pretty uncomfortable, but I had to sit on ones that were so much worse
when I used to camp out waiting to get tickets
when I was a freshman at Kansas State University because our fraternity literally camped out for weeks
to get great basketball tickets and who had to camp out?
The freshmen, which is what I had to do.
So, again, in simple terms, perception, it's like snapping the photo, perspective, is then editing and captioning that photo based on your own unique life story.
And understanding the difference between the two can help you become more self-aware and better at empathizing with others, because you start to realize everybody's walking around with their own editors, and they are interpreting the same raw footage in completely different ways.
So when you can understand the difference between perception and perspective, and this is why I liked that email that set up the podcast today, because ultimately it is a you thing, and I'm saying that in a very positive way, that this is up to you to understand that difference between perception and perspective.
So that then if her husband is saying your perception is your reality and it is wrong.
Says her husband looking through his perspective, through his editor.
So understanding that difference between perception, raw data, perspective, the making
sense of or the editor of that raw data can be a game changer when you're dealing with emotionally
immature or narcissistic individuals. Because if we talk more about perception, so when you are
interacting with somebody who has these traits, emotionally immature, narcissistic,
traits and tendencies.
Your immediate perceptions will then often be clouded by their actions or their words.
You might feel disoriented or hurt or even angry based on what they say or do.
So it's important to remember that these are your own sensory snapshots of the moment,
reacting to the immediate behavior that you're witnessing.
Again, that's perception. Perspective. This is where the real magic happens because once you
If you recognize that your perspective then is shaped by your own set of experiences and beliefs,
then you can use that awareness to distance yourself emotionally from the narcissistic behavior.
Now, this doesn't mean that you are excusing their actions, and I think that is what can be so difficult,
because often we still have this visceral or gut reaction that we don't want them to misinterpret us
or we really need them to understand us,
but that's part of the problem that has kept us in this trauma bond or this intermittent reinforcement
because we're continuing to try to give them that aha moment.
Again, it doesn't mean excusing their actions, but rather understanding them in a broader context.
For example, you might think, all right, this person is attempting to manipulate me,
because they're trying to feel superior, not necessarily because there's anything wrong with me.
Now, it still is frustrating. It brings up a lot of emotions,
but this is part of that, just becoming more aware, going from the we didn't know what we didn't know
to now we know, but it's still so hard to do, to put these tools into action.
And this is another one of these tools, understanding this perspective and perception,
to get us moving more into that, okay, I'm starting to be able to do more than I don't,
which is a really powerful thing because the end of this journey is I have just become,
and I'm just being and doing, and all those things that come with a yoga mat and a ponytail.
But now let's flip the script. So their perception, right? People with narcissistic tendencies
are often highly tuned into their own perceptions, it's a nice way to put it,
but not necessarily anybody else's.
They are acutely aware of how things benefit them or feed their ego.
And then so if we look at their perspective, then their perspective is pretty typically self-centered,
framed entirely around their own needs and experiences, even if that need is to put you in the one down position.
And to put them in this one up position or that need still comes from a place of from what it feels like to be them that if you are having a different experience than that then there's there's no room for that so then if you have a different experience than in their mind.
You're telling them that their experience is wrong.
Because that's where they can't sit with any discomfort and that discomfort comes and having to take in somebody else's experience.
So, this makes it extremely challenging for the narcissist or the emotionally immature
person to empathize with others.
And I talked a lot last week about confabulation and what can be really difficult is they can
confabulate or change their own internal narrative or fill in the gaps of memory in real time
to make sure that it is not what you are saying.
You are wrong and I think that's what can be so challenging.
So understanding this dynamic then it helps you approach interactions with more of this
level of emotional armor because you become better at setting boundaries even
with the acceptance that a boundary is a challenge for the emotionally immature,
and it doesn't mean they're gonna go okay my bad that's a very fine boundary
you have said I will respect that that isn't the way it works but you still
need to start learning what that looks like to set a boundary and sometimes
there's a pre staging before you can get to the boundary and part of it is this,
of being able to extricate yourself from the crazy-making. So you become better at
setting boundaries and less likely to get emotionally entangled in their web
and sometimes that's gonna mean the boundary is gonna be walking away. But.
You'll realize that their actions and their words are reflections of their skewed perspective. They are not objective truths about you or the world
and when you can start to recognize that then you don't have as strong of a need
to defend yourself because it's pretty silly what they're saying.
So, by being aware of this, it's like an interplay between perception and perspective, you'll find it easier to navigate the tricky relationships, whether that's in your family setting, or whether it's in friendships, or even in a therapeutic environment.
Kind of what I was talking about with a little bit earlier, even if you start to feel like your own therapist or life coaches is kind of saying, okay, well, that's, you're wrong, you're wrong about that, because it's your experience and you'll be better equipped to maintain your own mental well-being while doing so.
The reason why this can be so difficult is that all or nothing or black or white thinking, because that is the hallmark calling card of someone who is emotionally immature or narcissistic.
And it's not just an inability to see another person's perspective, it's like this defensive reflex to interpret, again, an opposing or differing view as a direct attack to their own perspective.
So I tried to jot down some notes here on, like, I've become very fascinated with what the narcissist thought process is, and for the next little bit here, let's just say narcissist, but I hope you know I mean that entire mouthful of the narcissist or the person who has narcissistic traits and tendencies, or who is on the range or scale of emotional immaturity. That's a mouthful.
For the narcissist, perspectives aren't just viewpoints, they're battles to be won, which is so fascinating when you look at that.
So everything is a ground war. So when you share a perspective that differs from them, then they feel compelled, it is a reflex, to then one-up you.
And they may not be conscious of this drive, because it's like this automatic setting, to maintain their fragile ego, because the primary concern is not understanding you better,
or finding common ground, which I think is probably what you're going and looking for.
It's about asserting that their perspective is the correct one and by implication then that means that yours is wrong.
But so when a narcissist enters this mode Then that's where they might employ a lot of different tactics to assert this dominance or take this one-up position,
Such as our greatest hits gaslighting deflection victim status or maybe just a full-on outright denial of the facts and,
These these maneuvers really aren't even about the topic at hand because that can lead us to figuring out
okay, let me think of a different way to put this.
They're not about that. They're about maintaining a power dynamic that keeps them up on the top.
I think it goes without saying of why is that a problem? Well, because this kind of behavior creates this toxic emotional environment where, honest to goodness, meaningful conversations, being heard and understood,
having growth together and your relationships is nearly impossible.
And then that can leave you as the person that is seeking to be heard and wanting this genuine, authentic connection where we both feel heard and understood,
and we're having these shared experiences and we're processing emotion together.
Then that can start to make you feel diminished or gaslit. This is honestly when one can start to feel
emotionally abused over time because they start to lose their entire sense of self
of why is it so difficult to be me?
Why is it so difficult to try to get my point across? Why is it so difficult to get somebody just to care and to show love?
So what can you do? I feel like understanding this whole scenario,
this whole pattern, waking up to what that emotional immaturity or narcissism looks like in the relationship,
is it really is the first step to starting to protect yourself.
And I was very selective about saying protect yourself because it's not solving the puzzle
so that now you can be heard and understood by this person.
But once you recognize what's happening, then you start to have these strategies
to either disengage from the conversation, or again, we go back to trying to set healthy boundaries,
and you won't, most likely you will not change their all or nothing thinking,
but you can protect yourself from these harmful effects of this emotional abuse.
It also helps you to remind yourself that their need to one-up isn't about you,
it's about their insecurities, it's about their emotional limitations,
it's about their need to get this validation at any cost.
And that's where I do say that even this can start to feel like you are now self-becoming.
Validate yourself, because you start to recognize,
okay, I am okay, I am starting to make some progress or growth because I'm starting to see
how patternistic this behavior is.
So yeah, so then awareness of this black and white thinking,
it's crucial if you're trying to maintain your own emotional well-being while dealing with the narcissist.
Because just please remember, you can't control their perspective as they are trying to control yours,
but understanding it can help you navigate these interactions more sanely, more safely.
Let me spend a little time talking about interdependence and codependence, because I think these things
are pretty crucial in understanding the dynamics of the relationship as well.
Because I like to say that we all start out, and if you're watching on the video,
we're meshed and codependent.
That comes from our childhood abandonment and attachment issues.
Now we just agree with everything and everything's gonna work out and we all love the same things,
even if I kinda really don't, but I'm probably sure I will.
So then as we go through life and we have our different experiences, we start to become interdependent, pulling my hands away, and differentiated.
Where one person ends, the other begins, but in the middle is a lot of invalidation, and that can be really uncomfortable, which causes us typically to jump back into enmeshment and codependency, and that narcissist needs you to be enmeshed.
They need you to be codependent because that's how they get their breath of life. They must have another person to interact with them.
I was talking to someone in my family that I care deeply about, and they were talking about a really emotionally, in my opinion, emotionally immature person at their work.
And I feel like that person, because the person that I'm talking about is so kind, you know, such a kind soul, that then it's almost like this emotionally immature narcissistic person says,
Hey, I'm gonna go walk around for a little bit. So I need you to exist beside me so that I can tell you how amazing I am, tell you how dumb you are, make myself feel better so that I can exist. Come along with me, why don't you?
And it's just such a toxic situation because this person was even telling me that somebody else at their office has already said, yeah, I'm not interacting with that person.
And I would imagine it's because they've set this boundary and they've said, I'm not doing that because that's going to zap my own sense of self and my own strength, which is a boundary.
Let's go back to breaking down codependence and then interdependent.
So codependence, it's like two people are leaning in so hard into each other that if one moves, then they both fall.
And this kind of relationship starts off feeling intensely supportive.
And I think this is super important to acknowledge.
Because they feel intensely connected and supportive, and it can be especially comforting
when both parties are going through tough times, or they both come from difficult backgrounds,
which is what people often find. Because remember, that pathologically kind person
also had to internalize their emotions. They're pathologically kind, maybe more highly sensitive
and empathetic because they maybe weren't heard or seen as well growing up, so they've had to do
a good job of reading the room, trying to, not wanting to rock the boat. Then that emotionally
immature narcissistic person is coming into a relationship just being the, that love-bombing
concept of they are just being the best version of themselves because they want that validation
so bad and that's what forms that human magnet syndrome. So in this codependent relationship,
both people rely heavily on each other for emotional support and what that looks like
like early in the relationship, that support, the validation, even their identity,
and the line between, I would say, me and us gets blurred.
And why I like to show that we're codependent and enmeshed, almost, I think, everybody, when they're first
in relationships or getting married or connecting with another human being,
because I wanna just normalize that, that there's nothing wrong, that we're just being,
we're just showing up that way.
So I think it's really fascinating to just take a look at it that way.
So interdependence, now on the flip side, interdependence is more like having two strong pillars
that are supporting the same structure, like the relationship, the marriage.
Each pillar can stand on its own, but it contributes to something greater when it's combined.
So in these interdependent relationships, each person has a clear sense of self
and they have personal boundaries.
And so then the concepts around emotional and practical support, they're mutual,
because neither person is so deeply embedded
the other person that they lose their individuality. And that can seem crazy at first when people
get married and early in their relationship because they feel like we're supposed to just
be all for one and one for all and enmeshed and two halves of a whole. But what we're
trying to get to is two complete holes that are together. So I have this one's one of
these based on a real story. Meet Sandra and Jason. So they fell in love right after high
school. They each escaped pretty physically abusive homes and their love story was like
It's like a refuge, two souls battered by life, and they find comfort in each other's struggles.
So, their codependence in that scenario, it was a strength. It was their shield against the world.
And you can say, I think honestly, that it probably saved their lives and their sanity
at a really vulnerable time. So, I do want to show that that can be a, you know, a universe
thing, a God thing. All these things happen for a reason thing, that we find ourselves in these
relationships at this time, and they save our lives. Then fast forward a decade or more,
and both people have reached a more stable emotional state in this scenario,
partly due to therapy, partly due to the stability that they initially found in each other.
But then they also started to feel a little bit confined by the same codependence that once comforted him.
Sandra wanted to pursue a career in graphic design, and Jason had jumped into just some journeyman work and wanted to go back to school.
So recognizing this need that they had for growth, they start this journey toward interdependence, which is where the therapist jumped in.
And so Sandra gets into a design course,
Jason starts taking night classes, they start to cheer each other on, they're each other's biggest fans, and again, this is real, but they also give each other space to grow and pursue individual dreams, but it wasn't like it was super easy, it just came naturally, this is what we had to work on in couples counseling, using the four pillars, they both felt heard and understood, it was uncomfortable, and it wasn't easy, because sometimes they almost missed the intensity from their earlier years,
And that's where you feel like they're almost addicted of sorts to the enmeshment or the codependency because it served them so well for so long.
But I remember talking about this concept of that for a tree to grow tall, the roots must have room to spread out.
So understanding that it's not just okay, but it's necessary to move toward interdependence is a key.
Because you become a more rounded individual with passions and dreams and friendships that are outside of your partnership.
And it doesn't mean that you're leaving the other person or you're going to step out on them.
And then paradoxically, the more independently strong each person becomes, this is the part that I think is so hard to wrap our heads around.
But the more robust and resilient than their joint life adventure can be, because now they're going to jump into the world of shared experience.
Not okay what do you think i don't know what do you think her i don't want anybody mad as we're all just be in and do it and have an amazing experience even if it's not something we like to do.
Because we can go there with curiosity not trying to manage somebody else's emotions.
Or for the immature one not wanting to make sure that this person knows that i'm the best at whatever we're doing i don't want to do those things and man and we better have plenty of sex while we're here too because after all vacation.
I mean, there's so much there that's not about just being and doing and sharing experiences with each other.
So becoming interdependent doesn't mean that you love each other any less.
It means that you're creating a relationship where each person is their very best self.
Each person is their best self. And in doing so, you're enhancing the quality of love and support that you can offer each other.
Which again, is not something that I think we know from our factory settings.
So for Sandra and Jason and anybody else that's hearing this, it's so important to remember that it's not only okay, but it's necessary for the health of a long-term relationship to, I think, shift from codependence to interdependence.
So, now let's bring in my good old friend differentiation and talk about how I really felt like that becomes the cornerstone or was the cornerstone for, we'll just go back into the world of Sandra and Jason and how it became the cornerstone for moving from codependence to interdependence because remember, differentiation, it is basically this process of becoming more you, developing your own thoughts and your own feelings and identity separate from your partner.
It's the ability to not, we always talk about with differentiation to remain yourself, but almost to find yourself while still being emotionally connected to another person.
So this is this key in transitioning from a codependent relationship where identities are enmeshed to interdependent, where both individuals stand alone together but choose to stand together.
So when things come up, if Jason said something, then that brought up emotion for Sandra, and that was her opportunity to say, is there truth in that?
And I'm having a reaction. That's a me thing. So I can't tell him to not do that because that's me wanting to get rid of my discomfort by controlling him.
It's that happens, it becomes a me thing in a positive way. Not like a, that's a you thing, but because that has to come from within.
So, I got a couple of examples. One was about weekend plans. So, before, we'll say, BD, before differentiation.
So, whenever Sandra wanted to spend the weekend painting, Jason used to feel neglected and he would get really grumpy and emotionally immature.
And Sandra would start to sense his mood, she would drop her plans, then she would go over and caretake him,
and that would lead to resentment on her part, but he would get his needs met.
So to him, anxiety managed, to her, resentment. But then he feels good. Now he wants to go ride bikes.
Say, I feel great. You want to go out to dinner? What do you want to do now? Now, after differentiation,
Sandra tells Jason she's planning to paint over the weekend and understands if he's disappointed
because he had not shared that he had any thing going on or that this is what he wanted to do
for the weekend. So Jason recognizes his feelings. Yeah, I am disappointed. He's still alive and he
was able to own that and express that. But then he decides then, okay, well, I will use that time
to catch up on some reading because he had started back to school. They both engage in activities
that they love, that they need to do. Then they meet up for dinner, they feel fulfilled.
And then they share their experience. What was the daylight painting? What did you read today?
And it wasn't like Jason showing up being all down, wanting her to say, I'm sorry, you know,
I should have done whatever you wanted to do. That is that emotional immaturity and that codependence.
So, let's do another scenario. Dealing with family. So, before BD, before differentiation, Jason's mom had a tendency to be, we'll say it very kindly, overly critical, especially towards Sandra, which is really difficult, but that is the thing.
And Jason would never intervene, and he kind of left Sandra feeling unsupported. She felt like she was alone on an island. So then after differentiation, he realizes, okay, this is a pretty big emotional burden on Sandra.
So, he talks to his mom about setting some boundaries, being respectful.
Sandra appreciates the effort, and she does feel seen and understood, and Jason set a
boundary with his mom without damaging his relationship with her.
And then at that point, if she doesn't respect the boundary, meaning the mom, it's a her issue.
And that's actually one more scenario, because this one had to do with career change.
This was pretty big. This one was probably more emotionally charged.
So BD, before differentiation, when Sandra got an offer for a job that would require
them to move, they honestly both felt pretty anxious because Jason saw it as a threat to
his career. Now the reality, and this is where the differentiated piece comes into play,
it's a little bit of what career? Sandra had this opportunity and Jason was still in
school. He wasn't even really sure what he wanted to do, but he still saw it as a threat
to his future career, but that was his immaturity wanting to take control of the situation because
a lot of different things came up for him.
It felt like a kept man, as his grandpa had said, meaning that, wait, she was going to
make money and they were gonna move for her, what would people think? Who cares.
But Sandra also felt guilty for even considering the move. So, after differentiation AD, Sandra and Jason, thanks to the help of a therapist, have
an amazing, open, high-charged conversation, let's say hypothetically using four pillars. Jason's able to acknowledge the importance of the
opportunity for Sandra. He knows that she's not trying to hurt him. He can't
tell her that she's wrong because it is the opportunity. Those are her feelings.
So he gets to say, take me on your train of thought. Tell me more. Help me understand and he's able to acknowledge that what an opportunity for her but he
shares his concerns without making her feel guilty because he doesn't have he's.
Just taking her on his train of thought and and he recognizes and acknowledges
that it might be a little bit immature and so she respects that viewpoint she
looks into or not she
She respects that and she starts to even look at, is there an opportunity for remote work options?
And they end up, it is one of those live happily ever after negotiated compromise that honors her current career and his potential career.
And they're still being and doing as we speak.
So differentiation allowed them to address the problem without it escalating to an emotional tug of war.
So they were able to find a solution that didn't really sacrifice one for the other. They both felt seen, heard, differentiated.
So by embracing the concept of differentiation, Sandra and Jason don't lose the emotional connection that's always been their relationship's strong point, even though it started as codependent.
And instead, they strengthen it by allowing room for individual growth.
And that individual growth leads to growth as a couple.
It doesn't just fortify their relationship, but their personal selves as well.
So that tool of differentiation is not a wedge driving them apart, but not good with art examples, but it is more like a chisel,
that's then carving out two intricate pillars that can support a more complex, enriching, and stable life structure for each other and together.
So I want to move next into a question from a colleague that they also work in this world of emotional immaturity.
So they said, hey, Tony, what's the difference between greyrocking and giving somebody the silent treatment?
They said that they have a client that greyrocks her husband, so when the client's husband
does the same thing as the client, she calls it the silent treatment and is mad.
So what's the difference? Because the husband feels there is a double standard here.
She can do one thing, but when he does the very same thing, he is in trouble with her.
And I think this is a very important thing to really understand the difference between
greyrocking and the silent treatment, because the way that they present is going to look
pretty similar, but this is a huge part of navigating the dynamics of a relationship with a narcissist
or somebody that is incredibly emotionally immature.
So let's talk about gray rocking. Gray rocking, it's a technique that is,
I like to advise it for people who are dealing with narcissists or other manipulative individuals.
So when you employ the gray rocking method.
You essentially become very intentionally uninteresting, unresponsive, as emotionally
neutral as a gray rock. I will not identify this person, but growing up, there was somebody that
some of our friend group called this person. They, in essence, had the personality of a can
of paint. So I often, if I could rename gray rocking, it would be paint canning. I guess
gray rocking sounds better. But this tactic is used to protect yourself from the emotional
manipulation and the provocations of the narcissist. Gray rocking is what leads to
these fantastic, amazing popcorn moments where you're just sitting back and watching the show.
You're pretty uninterested because this is now where the narcissist has to get you to react.
Because if you don't, then they're not going to get their supply. Now, they will still find a way
in their minds to get the upper hand. So in the scenario that we're talking about,
let's say that the husband has become passive aggressive. So the wife chooses not to engage or
respond to his provocations, then by doing that, she's grayrocking and she denies him
the emotional reaction that he might be seeking.
So in that scenario, grayrocking is a form of self-preservation.
It's used to maintain emotional distance and to avoid getting drawn into unnecessary conflicts.
So this is where when you are employing this grayrock method, then you are sitting back
and you're watching the show and here comes your popcorn moment.
Grab a bite because it's probably going to be a decent show.
Start off with anger, it may move into manipulation, it may move into tears or sadness, back to
comedy, to victimhood, and all you're doing is greyrocking.
It isn't, so grayrocking isn't about giving somebody the silent treatment or punishing them.
It is something that is done for self-protection.
Now, the silent treatment is a manipulation tactic that is often employed by narcissists and emotionally immature individuals
because the silent treatment is deliberately ignoring somebody or refusing to communicate with them
or withholding attention and affection as a form of punishment.
So, narcissists and emotionally immature people, they use the silent treatment to gain control, to evoke a reaction.
It's one of the many buttons that they are trying to press in order to get the reaction so that they can inflict this emotional pain on their target or get that control.
Because that's a way for the narcissist to express disapproval or disappointment or anger without having to address the issue directly.
Because heaven forbid that they may actually have to take ownership or accountability of something.
So, in this scenario again, when the wife doesn't give the husband the emotional reaction
that he's looking for by grey-rocking, then he might resort to the silent treatment as
a way to regain that control and then to manipulate her into feeling guilty or anxious.
That is his attempt to shift the power dynamics and it makes her feel uncertain and then eager to fix things.
So the silent treatment can go from hours to days because if that is something that's
worked in the past, then the narcissist will employ that. The main difference between the two is their intent.
Gray rocking, again, self-preservation.
It's a tactic that's employed to protect oneself from further harm or manipulation.
So the individual using it isn't trying to control or harm the other person.
They're trying to protect themselves.
On the other hand, the silent treatment is employed to manipulate, control, and
inflict emotional pain on the other person.
So with gray rocking, the focus is inward. It's about maintaining one's emotional balance.
It's about not getting drawn into the conflict.
It's about sitting back, grabbing a bite of popcorn, hopefully with extra butter, and watching the show.
So with the silent treatment, the focus is outward, because it's about affecting the
other person's emotions and their behaviors.
And then the duration, if you look at it that way, grayrocking tends to be situational, and it's short-term.
It's a tool. It's used in specific instances where that individual feels the need to protect themselves.
They've been in this rodeo many times, and they're about to get tossed off the bull.
I'm not a big rodeo guy, but I think that probably makes sense.
So they need to protect themselves. So the silent treatment then, that can be prolonged.
That can sometimes, again, it can last days, weeks, even longer.
And that causes prolonged emotional distress to the recipient, to the pathologically kind,
to the nice person, because in the past, that button has worked.
That's why the narcissist is going to it.
So having an idea of these tactics and their implications, it's really critical for anybody that is navigating
a relationship with a narcissist or somebody that's emotionally immature
because it helps you recognize more
of these manipulative behaviors,
and it gives you tools that you can employ and use as a way to start to grow,
even within a relationship like that.
Okay, so what do we learn today? I feel like this is if you're happen to be a so I married an axe murderer fan
That is a movie by Mike Myers. I just listened to a.
Podcast called the rewatchables where they broke that down and it's just one of my I just I love movies
So the the father the Scottish father also played by Mike Myers and there says, okay, you know, you've stayed your hour
I won't try to do the Scottish accent, but I feel like there you are. You've stayed the time. I appreciate it
I hope that you were able to get something
Helpful from today's episode if there's things here that you like please pass it along if you think it can help somebody else because i think that's a lot of how people are starting to find.
The emotional maturity in their relationships are people that are sharing podcasts with them are sharing episodes of waking up the narcissism but take away today.
Perception perspective are not the same thing perception is the raw sensory input that we get from our surroundings.
Perspective is how we interpret the input through the lens of all of the things that we've been through what it feels like to be us our past experiences our beliefs our values and recognizing that difference can have a profound impact on our relationships but even more so on our own self-awareness even have some action items here's what we can do practice observing without interpreting it's part of that my pre pillar of my four pillars based off of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication of observing without judgment so practice observing without interpreting.
Next time you find yourself in a disagreement or a charge situation, try to separate what you're actually seeing or hearing,
there's your perception, from what you think it means, the perspective.
And if you need to, you can jot that down for a little clarity,
but that will really start to help you see yourself in the context of that moment, which is, that is a mature move, my friends.
Next, navigating relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals.
Just remembering, just remember, remember, people with emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits.
Engage in black-and-white all-or-nothing thinking, making it really hard for them
to accept different perspectives and just knowing that they often view if you
have a different perspective or different opinion that you then
therefore must think that theirs is wrong. Which I know that that isn't what
you necessarily think but that is how it's interpreted. So understanding that
can help you set healthy boundaries and protect yourself emotionally. And this is
where that concept of greyrocking, that technique starts to become pretty powerful. So when you are interacting with an emotionally immature or
narcissistic person...
Make yourself pretty emotionally uninteresting to avoid becoming a target of manipulation or control you know this is part of that you'll never give them the aha moment or the epiphany.
And last but not least this shift from codependence to interdependence through my good friend differentiation.
And that differentiation is the key to moving from a codependent to an interdependent relationship.
And if this is something that your partner is not interested in, then that might be some
of the data you need because you deserve to be in a mutually reciprocal, interdependent,
relationship, where you feel seen and understood.
And this does involve developing your own identity, your own thoughts, your own feelings,
and you can still do that and remain emotionally connected to your partner.
So start with little acts of differentiation, make separate plans that fulfill what you want to do.
And yeah, it's going to feel like it's a little selfish, but this goes into raising your emotional
baseline and that self-care is not selfish.
But it also needs to, you can make these individual needs, but you can also make time to share
the experiences with your spouse.
And I think that would be something if you were both being very intentional about having
your own separate experience and then coming back with curiosity, then that can be a really
powerful, differentiated experience. And then it doesn't mean, of course, that if
you like going along and doing things with your spouse, your friend, your whoever it is, that's a wonderful thing. But do you have your own talents and
hobbies and sense of self? Because that would be something to really take a look
at. So if you have questions or thoughts or anything else, feel free to send them
my way and we'll see you next time on Waking Up The Narcissist.
Music.