Music.
Hey, welcome to episode 92 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of a few other podcasts.
We'll talk about that in a minute, but let me just encourage you to sign up for the newsletter.
Just go to TonyOverbay.com or go to the link tree in the show notes
and just sign up for the newsletter.
It's coming out on a regular basis and there's some new content coming soon
on the Waking Up to Narcissism front. I'll just leave it there.
And I feel like with every week, There's a new podcast announcement.
So if you're not familiar, go check them all out.
There's the virtual couch. We got waking up to narcissism premium question and answer episodes.
There's a new podcast about ADHD with my friend Julie Lee called Love, ADHD.
And last week in particular, we talked about rejection sensitivity.
And there's a pretty heavy correlation to some rejection sensitivity and ADHD,
which can also come into play when we're talking about emotional immaturity.
So just give that one a listen, if anything. And then you heard a bonus episode
on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast from The Mind, The Mirror, and Me with my daughter McKinley on solitude.
And I had some great feedback, so thank you so much for that.
I hope that you were able to go over and subscribe or follow her podcast as well
because this week we talked about vulnerability and working off of Brene Brown's TED Talk.
And it's kind of funny, I was very, very vulnerable myself and admitted that I had not really dove
into Brene Brown's work. and I talk about empathy and vulnerability and those things myself.
And I realized that was yet another one of those just emotionally immature things of mine
where I thought, gosh, I think I'm actually finding myself jealous of this person
who is changing the world and helping other people.
And here I'm telling myself constantly that there's no scarcity mindset in the mental health field.
And then I just told myself that I just hadn't really gotten around to exploring much around Brene Brown.
And I just loved her TED Talk. And then that led into McKinley and I had a great,
Mind the Mirror Me episode. so I really would encourage you to go check that out.
And the Murder on the Couch podcast.
And if you, we have a new one coming this week that is absolutely not about murder,
but if you enjoy the dynamic between my daughter Sydney and I, especially from the last episode,
and again, do yourself a favor, go to the last episode.
It was about the escape of Danilo Cavalcante and just 10 minutes in.
I would love for you to listen to the whole thing, but if you need to, 10 minutes in, no further,
10 minutes, and then for the next two minutes after that, it is one of my favorite moments
in podcasting history, period.
So, there are a couple of topics that I've wanted to get back to sooner than later on,
waking up to narcissism.
It's that funny concept where there's, this is the 92nd episode, and I know, I know for
a fact that it's not, people aren't going back and listening to the entire back catalog.
I know I get some emails from people that say they are, and I'm very grateful, but there
are topics that we've talked about in the past that just need to be circled back around
and discussed, and especially those that have really resonated with listeners.
So two of those, the most downloaded episode, and I was surprised, I looked at this recently,
it was the episode on the amygdala hijack.
And so I already have a follow up in the works on that.
But the second most popular is the episode on confabulation, because I think it's one
of those concepts where once you hear it, and you understand it, you truly start to see it everywhere.
And at least it helps provide a little more context, possibly for some of the crazy making
that you may find yourself in.
So today starts with a letter or an email, as so many episodes now do, and I'm grateful
for that. So please keep those coming. And then we're going to go into confabulation
and we're going to hit it from a lot of different angles. I've got a lot of different examples
that have come up over the last year or so since the first confabulation episode. And,
I think that you'll definitely learn something new today. And I think it may also be equally
frustrating along with enlightening, but I want to warn you that the same rules apply.
Dare I say the first rule of a narcissist fight club that you don't talk about narcissist
Fight Club. And I'm trying to cram the Fight Club movie reference in there and make it work. But just as you don't say, hey, I think you are a narcissist to somebody. If you're truly interacting with an extremely emotionally immature individual or a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath, oh, my. Now I can't help but doing that. Think of Wizard of Oz, lions and tigers and bears. Oh, my. And it probably isn't even that. That might actually be a memory that I am confabulating from Wizard of Oz. Who knows if that's even a line there. But
telling somebody that you think that they may be confabulating their memory.
In one sense, you're handing them a brand new tool that they can't wait to use. So be aware.
So let's get to the letter and let's get into today's episode.
Okay, I couldn't help it. I paused right there and I went and googled and in fact,
it is lions and tigers and bears. Oh my. And I was curious if it was even Wizard of Oz or if
it was oh dear, but it looks like that was not a confabulated memory. But here's the letter.
Dear Tony, first off I want to say a huge thank you for your podcast Waking Up To Narcissism.
It's been a game changer for me.
I'm finally waking up to my own emotional immaturity and for that I am grateful.
However, as I become more self-aware, I can't help but notice how often my wife seems to,
be put in quotation marks lie to avoid feeling any uncomfortable feelings.
For example, last week she told me that she was late coming home because she got caught
in traffic but when I checked the traffic app, the roads were clear.
Another time she said she couldn't answer my call because her phone died but later I
I saw that her phone was close to fully charged.
In the past, when I've tried to point out these inconsistencies, she gets angry,
never owns up to it, and I end up apologizing.
Then comes the silent treatment, and eventually things go back to normal,
and that's also in quotation marks.
But each time this happens, I feel like I'm slowly going insane.
I've heard you use the term confabulation quite a bit on your podcast.
I'm a little bit late to the podcast. I have looked it up, and while I think I get the gist,
I have a couple of questions. Don't we all confabulate a little bit?
And does my wife know that she's changing her story?
She has to, right?
So can you please explain confabulation in more detail? And he says, and hey, like you joked in a previous episode,
feel free to give me the narcissistic definition, meaning talk real slow and offer to draw it out with crayons.
Ha ha, thanks again for all you do, sincerely.
And just the name, he said, let's call me Mike-ish. So I don't know if that's a inside joke
or that sort of thing.
All right, Mike-ish, I appreciate your letter and those are great questions.
I think the timing is perfect to talk a little bit more about confabulations.
So I think it's important here to spend a little bit of time just talking about what
confabulation is and then we'll tell some stories about what it looks like.
And full, absolutely full disclosure that I've taken the abstract from Sam Vaknin's
article Disassociation and Confabulation in Narcissistic Disorders. It was initially
published in the Harold Scholarly Open Access Journal of Addiction and Addictive Disorders
in March or March 25th of 2020. And then I took some of the concepts that Sam shared and I adapted
the language to fit the concept of emotional immaturity, where Vaknin uses the words narcissist
and psychopaths. And then I've also taken Eleanor Greenberg's The Truth About Narcissistic
Personality Disorder and also taken some of that information. So this is, I give full credit to
Sam Vaknin and Eleanor Greenberg, but I think for the work that I do around emotional immaturity
and the things that I want to share, let me just go through what I've maybe collaborated with their
work. So narcissists or emotionally immature individuals often disassociate
or erase memories and are amnesiac because their contact with the world and.
With others is through a fictitious construct, also known as the false self.
So then narcissists and emotionally immature people don't experience reality
directly, they experience it through a distorted lens. That's why I've spent
quite a bit of time talking about these orange covered glasses or trying to step
outside of your own ego or your own lens because for some people it feels like
those lenses are just welded onto our eyes but if you're really trying to wake
up to your own emotional immaturity then it's so important to recognize what that
false self is. So then if you are experiencing reality through a distorted lens, if I go back to this what I wrote from Sam and Eleanor's work, the
narcissistic lens initially developed in childhood.
So narcissism or emotional immaturity initially develops as a series of coping strategies,
that began as an adaptation to a childhood family situation that left the person
with unstable self-esteem, the inability to regulate their self-esteem without external validation,
and lower empathy. And so then this lens requires them to eliminate any information,
that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative that they've constructed about
themselves. And I think that narrative is what comes into play more with the emotionally immature,
that it doesn't even necessarily have to be this grandiose self-perception, but that narrative then is so necessary for the emotionally immature person to be able to excuse or explicate or legitimize their, whether it's their antisocial or their self-centered or their exploitive behaviors, choices, idiosyncrasies.
So, this confabulation, it allows them to get out of any bit of that discomfort or feeling like they were wrong or got something, they were in trouble.
Because when they were a kid in childhood, if you got something wrong or were in trouble, then you felt like your very life depended upon it, that you would be abandoned and outcast.
So then, in an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, the narcissists or emotionally immature people confabulate,
meaning they invent plausible plug-ins and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred.
So to outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies, but the narcissist or the
emotionally immature person fervently believes in their reality.
And I love this line, this one I think I pulled directly from Sam's work.
He or she may not actually remember what had happened, but it surely could not have happened in any other way than the way that they need it to happen in order for them to fit the narrative that they have created, in essence, of themselves.
So then these fillers are subject to frequent revision as narcissist or emotionally immature people's inner world and then external circumstances constantly evolve.
So then it's this just play between what is happening to them and how they feel about themselves,
So unlike somebody with self-awareness or who can self-confront who's on this road to differentiation,
They are constantly working from a place of deep insecurities,
Because they absolutely cannot be a fault because that would disrupt their internal narrative that if they are wrong,
Then you may no longer love them,
So they have to control the narrative in order to control the relationship So they will coerce somebody into loving or controlling them, but they cannot risk someone else having control in the relationship.
So it goes back to that antagonistic attachment style. The narcissist or the emotionally immature person sees the relationship as a zero-sum game.
Meaning that if you have a different opinion than they have, then you are saying that their opinion is wrong and your opinion is right.
And that is where they feel like you are going to leave them and abandon them.
Because they have to take control back in the relationship. And they'll do so by confabulating a narrative in real time.
It couldn't have happened that way.
You're wrong, I never said that. Or even they become the victim.
They need you to come rescue them. Then they take the one-up position
and it becomes just emotionally exhausting.
So this is why the narcissist and the emotionally immature people often contradict themselves, because tomorrow's confabulation or even last minute's confabulation often negates yesterday's or it negates the minute before.
Because the narcissist and the emotionally immature do not remember previous tales because they are not invested in the emotions and the cognitions that are so integral to being parts of real memories.
So I think just understanding that concept from that angle, that it's a matter of life or death, if they don't have control in the relationship, really sets the stage or paints a picture that then when you start to hear more of these examples about confabulation, you can then start to almost break it down like a, I don't know, a mathematical formula of, okay, so then when I said this, it's almost like a spar, you know, we're sparring, and then, oh, touche, I will counter your, I thought you were going to pick up bread tonight on the way home with.
The I never said that. And as a matter of fact, I thought that you were the one that
said that you like a particular kind of bread. So even if you would have asked me to pick
up bread, that seems like you're setting me up for failure. And all of a sudden you as
the person saying, I really did think you were going to pick up bread. You feel like
you're crazy. And now that person and that simple exchange in that very moment and in
real time has suddenly become very inflated on. Yeah. How dare you ask me to pick up the
bread that that I won't even get right because you always change your mind about what kind
of bread you like anyway. And you're sitting there thinking, I don't think so.
That's not me. But here's what's so difficult about confabulation is that when that person now believes that they believe it in real time. So now they
can't even believe that you don't remember the fact that you are you like a different kind of bread. And that's such a simple example, but one that
came up right off the cuff because I do see the confabulated narrative occurring
so often in the emails I receive or in a lot of the exchanges that I see in my office.
So, now that you have a better idea of confabulation, let me share some stories,
and I've changed a lot of the details to protect the confidentiality of those that have shared,
but the basis of all the stories, again, based on a true story.
I once worked with a couple who had been married. Boy, I'm so used to telling the jokes from ChatGPT
that I felt like I was about to do a limerick. I once worked with a couple from Scotland who,
but this was, this is the true story. It is the changed version of the true story.
So I once worked with a couple who had been married for several years and they had settled
into a life where they believed that they would not be able to have children. And the issue that
they were coming into session with was one where they were struggling with some trust issues.
The wife suspected her husband of being, we'll say, too close to an old friend from college
that he had met through a reunion committee. And during the initial sessions, the husband
mentioned that he had a daughter from a previous relationship a long time ago,
but that he had lost contact with the mother and the daughter. So we worked on the couple's
communication skills, hashtag four pillars for life, and they showed significant improvement
and they eventually stopped their sessions and rode off into the sunset.
Years later, they returned and at that point they had, I'll say, five kids seeking help
for parenting and relationship issues.
And in a one-on-one session with the wife where we were just starting to get caught,
up, I asked about the husband's daughter from his previous relationship purely from a, well,
how does he parent her aspect?
The wife broke down saying that her husband now denies ever having a daughter and will gaslight anybody who brings it up.
When I spoke to the husband, he also denied it and he questioned if his wife was spreading lies about him.
Later, the wife showed me an email from her father-in-law confirming that he was still,
the father-in-law was still financially supporting
the daughter that his son had had, even though his son had created this narrative
where she didn't exist and they literally hadn't spoken about her in years.
Put that over on the side.
Here's another one. a client who was a successful entrepreneur, but had a troubled past involving substance
abuse. He'd been clean for years and was now married and had a couple of kids. However,
his wife was concerned about his tendency to completely deny his past. He had told their
children and even some friends that he had never struggled with addiction. And his wife
showed me letters from his sister thanking him for overcoming his addiction and being
an inspiration to her family. And then when confronted, he really strongly denied ever
having a substance abuse problem or even ever trying any of those substances and then accused
his wife and sister of trying to tarnish his, at that point, pretty stellar reputation.
So in both of these stories, the men had confabulated to such an extent that they genuinely believed
their altered narrative.
So the first guy couldn't face the guilt of abandoning his daughter, and the second
guy couldn't reconcile his current self with his past self as an addict.
And it's as if their brains had created these protective narratives, and then any evidence to the contrary was then seen as a threat.
And that what was odd about that was not just a threat, but it would lead to this almost aggressive type of gaslighting.
This is why gaslighting, I think, is so potent for somebody who has confabulated their narrative.
It's that their brain has rewritten history to protect them from the emotional pain, and now they will defend this version of reality at all costs.
So, it's now not just them trying to convince you, they've already convinced themselves, so their confabulation is so deeply ingrained that presenting them with contrary evidence, even like a photo or an email, won't just be seen as false, but now it's an attack on their reality.
And I really believe that understanding this concept can be really crucial when dealing with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals.
Because it's not just about what they're willing to admit, but what they're capable of admitting, given the narratives that they've constructed to protect themselves.
We're going to talk about even more things around confabulation, because I really do believe that it's one of the most powerful and potentially impactful concepts when learning more and more about interacting with narcissists or emotionally immature people.
For people. Let me go into more details here and then we'll talk about more of the definition,
but I want to paint the picture in story, I guess, because I had a, this one, I did
have a pretty fascinating session with a couple. They gave me permission to share their story
and again, with details change for confidentiality, but let's call them Tina and Jerry. So years
ago, both of them struggled with substance abuse and then Jerry eventually moved away
and joined a rehab program and more than just joined a rehab program where he was actually
a mentor for others and actually played a pretty big role in this rehabilitation program.
Tina too then managed to turn her life around and she became sober. And at that time, and
it was a significant period of time, they had lost touch with each other. So it wasn't
that they were going off and then they were going to come back as both being sober, but,
they reconnected years later back in their hometown and they decided to come to me for
premarital counseling. So in one of our sessions, Tina wanted to reflect on their past and to
to appreciate how far that they had come.
And Jerry, however, had in essence, no memory of the events that Tina had described.
And it wasn't just a fog of substance abuse, because I think that's what somebody might assume
in this scenario, but he genuinely couldn't recall.
And you could tell that he really wanted to, because he trusted Tina.
And I think at that point, I had built up trust with him as well.
So here's where it gets kind of interesting, that I had worked with Tina during her time with Jerry,
way back in the day.
So I was really confident that her account was very accurate. And we started exploring Jerry's childhood, which was just marred
by an abusive, narcissistic father. And that led us to just discuss the concept of confabulation
when it came to, he was looking for explanations of how could his dad believe certain things
and just be so confident when his dad would gaslight him.
So, we're talking more about the concepts of confabulation with Jerry, and that's where he asked me, he just said, he became emotional and he asked if I believed Tina's stories about Jerry and Tina's past relationship.
And I assured him that I did, having known Tina for years before she met him. And then Jerry had a bit of an emotional breakthrough, because here we were talking about his childhood, his narcissistic abuse from his dad, and him wondering how on earth could this happen, and I'm throwing out just some concepts around confabulation.
And so again he said he has this emotional breakthrough. He said that whenever he tries to think about that period in his life, the period where he was interacting with Tina, before he became not only sober but then became a mentor and helped to change other people's lives, he said that his brain almost just felt like it just shut down, as if telling him that there's really no point in revisiting a past that really doesn't align with who he is now.
Now. And he even mentioned that when he saw old photos of himself that he just thought that they
were photoshopped because he said he couldn't believe that he was ever that person and looked
that down or distraught and he felt like that just was a completely different person than who he was.
So while Jerry couldn't suddenly remember everything, he said he reached this point
of acceptance that he realized that he felt like his brain had really confabulated the
stories of his past to protect him from a lifestyle that nearly destroyed him.
And this understanding allowed him to trust Tina and then validate her experiences saying,
okay, I don't remember those things, but I trust you.
And so I believe that those happened even if he couldn't remember them himself.
So it was almost like a moment of grace and acceptance for both of them.
And that helped allow them to move forward in their relationship with this,
almost like this newfound depth of understanding.
And I feel like that story itself just illustrates how confabulation can serve as a protective mechanism.
But again, it creates these gaps in not only our relationships, but our self-awareness, and did it.
Starts to show that I think with the right support maybe an understanding and safety that it can it can be possible to navigate these
complex emotional landscapes and Then start to find more of this path to mutual understanding and growth and I know I find this in my own relationship where?
There I have this fear I do of Alzheimer's of dementia And and so I know that sometimes if my wife will say don't you remember a certain thing?
My immediate response is that that didn't happen if I don't remember it or then the secondary response comes up and says oh my gosh
I'm going crazy. But then if I have trust for this person, which I do, then I can say,
man, I don't really remember that, but tell me or set the stage for me. Tell me what was going on
or what was that like for you? And sometimes that'll jar memory, but then other times it might
not quite jar anything loose. But in that moment, I can still validate her experience and not say,
that's ridiculous. I didn't do that. You're trying to hurt me. So the confabulation piece,
again, it's pretty complicated when you look at it from a lot of different angles,
Because I think what that leads to is, while confabulation can be this genuine psychological phenomenon,
then once, and this is where I talked about not handing the tools over to somebody that is emotionally immature and narcissistic,
that it could also then somewhat be used as an excuse to avoid accountability.
And if that is the case, then I would definitely encourage people to do what we talk about often on this podcast,
trust your gut, that if something feels off, it most likely is, it might, or a very strong possibility that it would be,
Because your intuition is a real powerful tool in assessing the sincerity, oftentimes, of someone else's claims.
Now, that doesn't mean that you then have to break down their reality. We're back to that concept of differentiation.
But it's time to start just listening to your gut, trusting your instincts, and look for patterns.
I think this is a really fascinating part of what I see often in therapy is,
is this the first time that they've claimed now confabulation, or does it start to become a recurring theme whenever they're cornered?
Because consistent use of this excuse can start to be a red flag.
And I remember way back in the day when I talked about narcissistic medical exits,
that when the narcissist is cornered or then things or the blame is somewhat being shifted onto them,
or they're being asked a question that is uncomfortable, or attention has moved away from the narcissist,
then often they will start to have the heart palpitations or the phantom pains or needing to sit down
or that sort of thing.
So you really can't start to look for patterns that will happen.
And that same thing can happen with confabulation.
If is there a confabulated narrative only when that's something that the emotionally immature narcissistic person
would have to take some ownership or claim fault in.
And then I really feel like seeking professional help is always helpful. that if you are...
Dealing with somebody who frequently claims to not remember significant events or actions,
especially ones that are pretty significant to the relationship, it might be helpful to
consult a mental health professional because they can maybe provide a little bit more of an
objective perspective and might even be able to start pointing you in the right direction or give
you the tools to be able to stay present even in the midst of confabulation. And then our old
friend boundaries, because whether or not somebody is confabulating, you have the right to protect
yourself emotionally and psychologically. So it's okay to make it pretty clear when
behavior is unacceptable and then stick to those boundaries. But then remember, boundaries
are a bit of a challenge when you are working with somebody that is emotionally immature.
And don't ignore the impact, because even if somebody is genuinely confabulating, it
doesn't negate the impact of their actions on you or others, because you're still going
to feel the feelings. So that might help you understand a little bit more clearly what
is happening, but that doesn't mean that you still have to then put, shove your
feelings down. And then, but I think it does also cause us to be cautious with
things like reconciliation. Because if somebody claims to have confabulated
harmful or destructive behavior, then I think it's still very, a very good idea
to be cautious in how quickly you return to the status quo. Because I still
believe that, and I will tell you, if there's something that I have been told
that I'm doing, and even if I don't know if I've done that, or I'm, there's a
a chance that my own memory has been confabulated,
then if that is somebody I care about, then of course I don't want to see them hurt.
And so that's something that I can definitely take a look at or work on.
And just education is always key. The more you know about confabulation,
which is why I wanna put out another episode like this, and other psychological phenomenon,
the less likely you are to be manipulated.
I think it was the old schoolhouse rock that told us that knowledge is power.
And I introduced this concept a few weeks ago and it's gotten a lot of positive feedback,
but it's okay to keep records. and.
When people are keeping records, it can be for your own sanity. So, in some cases, keeping a
record of interactions can be really helpful, especially if you suspect maybe that somebody
is using confabulation as an excuse. And that can be useful in both your personal and at times,
even legal contexts. I think that the concept a few weeks ago was when people feel bad if they're.
Jotting down notes, that if it's for your own sanity, then that is definitely something that
it is good. It's also known sometimes as journaling. And it's okay to write down,
okay, but I'm not crazy because this is what he or she said on this date, and now
they have no memory or no recollection. But I'm also noticing that then they sure
seem to remember these times where they were in the right or I was in the wrong
or that sort of thing. So that's, that's perfectly okay, to keep notes or records
in that scenario. Okay, so let's go back to this concept that when someone is
confabulating their narrative,
then they also become experts at gaslighting.
What does that look like? Because again, in its simplest form,
confabulation is when somebody fills in the gaps in their memory with,
and I'm calling them made up stories or facts, where in reality, there's little bits of truth
in some of the stories, I'm sure, but that they genuinely believe those stories or facts are true.
So it's not just lying for the sake of lying, although it often will feel that way,
and your mileage may vary, and I'm not saying that every single time it's confabulation,
but I think this is just one of those tools that I want you to have in your tool chest.
But it's, again, I think that you would almost see it as it's not just lying for the sake of lying,
it's more like storytelling to fill in the blanks.
But the storyteller believes their own tale as they tell the story.
So why would somebody do this?
If we go back to that narcissist and emotionally immature individuals,
confabulation is a coping mechanism because it's a way to maintain that internal narrative
which is so crucial for their self-esteem their self-image.
Because, again, we see that individuals often have a distorted lens through which they view the world.
And this lens was likely formed in childhood as a series of coping strategies.
And I often like to say that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.
So imagine a kid growing up in a home where the parents never take responsibility for their actions.
Because in that kind of an environment, the child learns early on.
Not even learns, it just is.
But I guess that is learning.
But they just, they see that admitting to being wrong leads to punishment or quite frankly, they just never see it happen.
What does the child do? They develop a survival instinct to never be wrong because then they never have to be accountable.
I feel like this is the birth of gaslighting as a defense mechanism because the child learns a couple of things there.
One, by gaslighting, they avoid the discomfort of admitting that they've done something wrong and were wired to get rid of discomfort.
But number two, they also dodge the punishment that comes with that admission.
And so here's where the confabulation part becomes super important,
that the better the mind is at believing its own narrative, then the more effective it is at gaslighting,
and then getting its needs met. So it's like the self-reinforcing loop.
So the individual may not remember exactly what happened, but in their mind, it couldn't have happened any other way
than the way that they have constructed, they've confabulated.
And this narrative then serves to protect them from both internal discomfort and external consequences.
So when you look at the joke, the dog ate my homework,
If they can sell you on the dog ate their homework, as a matter of fact, they're convinced at some point
where I think the dog probably really did eat my homework because it certainly isn't here with me,
but they've confabulated out the part where it's because I didn't do it.
But at that point, they can sell that story.
So confabulation isn't just about filling in memory gaps, but it's about creating a reality
where they are never wrong,
which in turn makes them incredibly effective at gaslighting because they've essentially trained their mind
to believe their own distortions, making it easier to convince others of this alternate reality.
And I think what that leads to next is, how does it happen so quickly?
Because if you are not an expert emotionally immature narcissistic human being,
then sometimes people say, I can't even come up with things that fast.
Well, for the narcissist or the emotionally immature individual,
confabulation is, I think, it's like a reflex.
It's not necessarily a premeditated act, although I'm sure that a lot of times there are going to be,
as if everything, everything on a spectrum, There will be times where you can almost watch the person's gears turning on how they can get out of this thing.
But for some, it's not this premeditated act.
It's more like an instant reaction to any situation that threatens their self-image.
This is why their narrative can change in the blink of an eye.
One moment they're saying one thing and the next they've spun a whole new tale that supports their worldview.
So I almost feel like we're talking about the aha moment or the epiphany that you might be tempted to provide them.
You might think, oh, if I can just show them the error of their ways, then they'll get it, then they'll change.
But here's the kicker. Trying to give them that moment is like sending them to, uh, I was thinking about this almost like confabulation gym.
I couldn't think of it any better way for a workout because you're not breaking their pattern.
You're actually helping them exercise their, for lack of a better word, confabulation muscles. Look at it this way.
If every time you engage and try to prove them wrong, you're essentially inviting them for a pickup game at confabulation park.
You're giving them a chance to practice, to get better at their game, to sharpen their skills.
And the more you play, the stronger they get at confabulating, while what starts to weaken is your own sanity.
So what you think is in an attempt to enlighten them actually is fuel for the confabulated fire.
So you're not pulling them out of their, their, it's funny, I'm, I want to say distorted reality and all this stuff in the news about Jodi Hildebrand and talking about her theories of distortion have got me rattled because it is so,
that work that she was doing.
So the opposite of the work that I do, but I can use this word in this correct situation,
but so you're not pulling them out of their distorted reality you're diving in with them.
And in doing so you're getting tangled up in their web of alternate facts and fictional stories,
which will drive you more crazy, but then they are just getting stronger and stronger.
And let's go back to gaslighting for a second because I would imagine that by 92 episodes
into Waking Up to Narcissism, you're pretty familiar with gaslighting,
but I think sometimes I forget that this is the world that I work in, the world that I live in.
This could be somebody's first experience here on Waking Up to Narcissism,
and you're hearing about gaslighting a lot.
But it is, just as a quick refresher, it's when somebody manipulates you
into questioning your own reality or sanity,
and it's like they're holding a lighter to your perceptions and your memories
and making you doubt what you knew to be true.
So let's go back to painting this picture. So imagine you're in a conversation with your partner
who happens to be a pro at confabulation.
And you bring up something that they said last week that hurt your feelings.
So instead of acknowledging it, they say, I mean, I didn't say that, you're remembering it wrong.
And you're left scratching your head, you're kind of wondering if you're going crazy.
And so then you find a suspicious text on their phone.
So when you confront them, then they flip the script and say, why in the world are you snooping on my phone?
Man, you are paranoid.
So now you're not only doubting your initial concern, You're also questioning your own actions and motives.
Am I paranoid? Well, wait, I am paranoid, but it's because of this kind of activity.
But that's why when you bring that up to them, then it's just, we're back in confabulation park.
So while you leave those conversations feeling like you're losing your grip on reality,
the narcissist walks away feeling invigorated. Why?
Because they just had a great workout at the confabulation gym.
Every time that they successfully gaslight you, it's like they've scored a point in the pickup game
at confabulation park.
Then they leave that conversation feeling justified. And what's worse, they really do start thinking,
okay, you are the crazy one, you are the paranoid one.
And now they can bring up every time that you start talking,
you're just being paranoid again, like that time that you started snooping around on my phone
and didn't find anything.
But then in your mind, you're thinking, but I did, I literally did find something.
But what is crazy about that is now they're even making me think that, Wait, did I?
Or was I just being paranoid?
And that's the danger. That's why we still hear so much about going just straight on no contact when you start recognizing the emotional immaturity or narcissism in your relationship with fill-in-the-blank of the individual.
And I understand that this is why I think things like confabulation or understanding these concepts more is so helpful because I know it's not just as simple as just leaving or just disappearing.
So I think the way we can make this episode definitely different from the previous episode on confabulation, we've tried to go into a little bit more detail here today, but I want to also tie in confabulation with my best friend as of late, not chat GPT, but in differentiation because I've been going big on that on I feel like any podcast I can get my hands on.
I am yes, I will quote myself from a previous episode and I see the irony in quoting myself on a podcast about narcissism,
I want to jokingly say but if the shoe fits, but here's the quote Imagine every time somebody says or does something and you react you get mad happy or upset. It's like getting a pop quiz about yourself,
Why did you feel that way?
What is it saying about you because Murray Bowen the father of differentiation?
Talked about the idea that we need to learn the difference between what we feel and think and what others feel and think and the,
the better we get at this, the better we handle drama and stay calm and steady and we become more consistent.
So when things go down in life and inevitably it will and you feel some kind of way,
and yes, I really did say this part next, you get all up in your feelings.
Then it's really about, it's giving you hints on who you are.
So let's tie this into the concept of confabulation and dealing with emotionally mature narcissistic individuals.
So when you're dealing with somebody who is a pro at confabulation,
then it really can start to feel like you're losing your grip on reality
because they're so good at spinning their narrative,
that you start to question your own sanity.
But here's where differentiation comes in as your secret weapon.
Because differentiation does not mean you don't care about what the other person is saying or feeling.
It means you can separate their thoughts and feelings from your own.
So when they start to confabulate, you don't get sucked into their narrative.
You can step back and say, Yeah, wait a minute. That's their version of reality. It's not mine.
And here's the kicker.
Back to practice. The more you practice differentiation, the less power that the narcissist has over you.
Because they thrive on blurring the lines between their emotions and yours.
They are the anti-differentiation person, making you doubt yourself so they can maintain control.
But when you're clear about what you think and feel, then their confabulation tactics lose their potency.
So the next time that you find yourself in a heated exchange with your local neighborhood narcissist
or emotionally immature individual, remember that it is like a pop quiz about yourself.
Why are you reacting the way you are?
Fascinating, isn't it? What's it revealing about you? Oh, that I feel like I need to prove myself
to this person who is not curious.
So use that as a moment or an opportunity for growth. Because the narcissist might be flexing
those confabulation muscles, but you will now be flexing your differentiation muscles.
And trust me, that's the gym membership that is worth investing in.
Because by practicing differentiation, you're not just surviving these challenges
or these interactions, but you're starting to turn them into opportunities for personal growth.
Now, I do not recommend going over into confabulation park and saying, who's got next?
But if you're in these conversations, you're learning how to stay rooted in your own reality,
even when somebody is trying to pull you into theirs.
And that, my friends, is how you turn the tables and take back your power.
The differentiation is your gym membership to sanity, while the narcissist is just getting another workout
at Confabulation Park.
So I almost wanted to say, hey, choose your gym wisely.
Let me just give one or two more narratives here and then we'll wrap things up.
So let me jump into a metaphor.
I think I wanna try a metaphor I think will resonate with a lot of people because this is where,
when we still try to make sense of what they are going through.
What the narcissist is going through, the emotionally immature person's going through
and trying to explain confabulation.
Imagine that you meet somebody who has been playing the piano since they were three or four years old.
And I mean, they have been tickling those ivories for decades.
And so for them, playing the piano is almost as natural as breathing.
And I've had clients where that is the case.
They don't even have to think about it. Their fingers just dance across the keys,
and they create beautiful music effortlessly, and they can go play for hours,
and it's just soothing for them.
Now let's say that you decide to take up the piano lessons in your 40s. You sit down at the keyboard
and it's a struggle. And I can honestly say that that has been the case for me. You're consciously
thinking about every note, every finger movement, and it feels awkward and it feels unnatural. And
you look at the person who's been playing since childhood and you think, how do they do it?
Because it just looks so easy for them. Here's the kicker though. Ask that person. Try asking
them. Ask the person to explain, how do you play the piano so effortlessly? And it's almost like
Asking a fish to describe water to them. It's their natural environment. It's the well just it's what it feels like to be them.
So let's relate this back to the emotionally immature or the narcissistic individual. They've been confabulating since they were kids
It's their go-to coping mechanisms their default setting
It's as natural to them as playing the piano is playing the piano is to our lifelong musician
So when you ask them to explain why they confabulate it's like asking the pianist to explain how they play
so effortlessly, to them, the question itself seems absurd.
That they might even look at you like you've got a couple of heads and say, what do you mean? Why do I do it?
First of all, I don't even know what you're talking about and you're painting me out to be this monster.
And in doing so, I think that you're the monster and see what they just did there.
They just confabulated the narrative right on you.
And that's the challenge when dealing with emotionally immature, narcissistic individuals
that they've been quote, playing the piano or confabulating for so long.
That is just what they do.
So we go back to that, calling someone out on something that they are not aware of.
Not only do they not understand why you're making a big deal out of it,
but they might even turn it back around on you and make you feel like you're the one who's out of touch.
So the next time that you find yourself baffled by someone's confabulation,
remember this piano metaphor, remember the gym memberships. You're essentially asking them
to step out of their lifelong musical experience to see things from your perspective.
And that's a really tough ask.
Now, it's not impossible, but it's a bit like asking a fish to describe water
because to them, it's just what it feels like to be them.
Take this confabulation information with you and use it wisely, my friends,
because if you have made it this far in this episode or even on the podcast in general,
I know that you are out there trying to figure out things to make your life and probably your kids' lives
or your family's lives even better.
And just know that in doing the work that you're doing now, you are, you're changing that dynamic and that narrative.
And a lot of times it's gonna not seem very fair the answers that you're gonna find on how to show up.
When do I get to finally explain to this person what they're doing?
And it can feel very almost paradoxical to hear that the answer of that is, oh, probably never.
But the more that you understand what's going on, and the more that you show up differently in a relationship, it does change the dynamics of the relationship.
And notice I didn't say, then it will get better and they will be nicer and you will live happily ever after.
Now, do I hope that for everybody? Absolutely. I wouldn't have gotten into the profession that I did.
But when you really start to understand that this is your first time on this journey of what it feels like to be you and you are the one that's trying to figure these things out, then there is going to be a nice shift that's either occurring right now or has recently occurred or will occur.
Or soon where, and forgive me for going to this old trope, but you didn't know what you didn't know.
And then you start learning, but you don't really do as much of the things that you're hearing
as you would like to do.
And that's frustrating. That's a place that you'll be for a little while.
So settle in because that's where a lot of growth occurs, a lot of discomfort, but a lot of growth.
And then you eventually move into this phase where you're doing all the things more than you don't,
starts to feel a little bit better.
And at some point you just become, and becoming differentiated and becoming one who feels okay
in their own skin.
And then the things that come with that, or you start to recognize that you are of worth,
that you are lovable, that you don't have to prove to anybody that they need to love you
because if they're not open to the idea of loving you,
it's kind of a them problem.
Thanks for staying with me today. Send me any of your questions, comments.
I'd love to hear any questions or thoughts or stories about your own experiences with confabulation.
And I'll see you next time on Waking Up.
Music.