WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.640 Music. 00:00:06.634 --> 00:00:12.004 Hey, welcome to episode 92 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:12.004 --> 00:00:16.304 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of a few other podcasts. 00:00:16.304 --> 00:00:20.471 We'll talk about that in a minute, but let me just encourage you to sign up for the newsletter. 00:00:20.604 --> 00:00:25.204 Just go to TonyOverbay.com or go to the link tree in the show notes 00:00:25.204 --> 00:00:26.444 and just sign up for the newsletter. 00:00:26.444 --> 00:00:30.564 It's coming out on a regular basis and there's some new content coming soon 00:00:30.564 --> 00:00:32.957 on the Waking Up to Narcissism front. I'll just leave it there. 00:00:33.404 --> 00:00:37.089 And I feel like with every week, There's a new podcast announcement. 00:00:37.404 --> 00:00:39.051 So if you're not familiar, go check them all out. 00:00:39.244 --> 00:00:43.669 There's the virtual couch. We got waking up to narcissism premium question and answer episodes. 00:00:44.004 --> 00:00:48.639 There's a new podcast about ADHD with my friend Julie Lee called Love, ADHD. 00:00:49.124 --> 00:00:52.222 And last week in particular, we talked about rejection sensitivity. 00:00:52.664 --> 00:00:57.444 And there's a pretty heavy correlation to some rejection sensitivity and ADHD, 00:00:57.444 --> 00:01:01.026 which can also come into play when we're talking about emotional immaturity. 00:01:01.564 --> 00:01:06.224 So just give that one a listen, if anything. And then you heard a bonus episode 00:01:06.224 --> 00:01:12.450 on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast from The Mind, The Mirror, and Me with my daughter McKinley on solitude. 00:01:12.604 --> 00:01:15.244 And I had some great feedback, so thank you so much for that. 00:01:15.244 --> 00:01:19.931 I hope that you were able to go over and subscribe or follow her podcast as well 00:01:20.004 --> 00:01:25.684 because this week we talked about vulnerability and working off of Brene Brown's TED Talk. 00:01:25.684 --> 00:01:31.704 And it's kind of funny, I was very, very vulnerable myself and admitted that I had not really dove 00:01:31.704 --> 00:01:37.844 into Brene Brown's work. and I talk about empathy and vulnerability and those things myself. 00:01:37.989 --> 00:01:41.944 And I realized that was yet another one of those just emotionally immature things of mine 00:01:41.944 --> 00:01:45.284 where I thought, gosh, I think I'm actually finding myself jealous of this person 00:01:45.284 --> 00:01:47.514 who is changing the world and helping other people. 00:01:47.624 --> 00:01:52.524 And here I'm telling myself constantly that there's no scarcity mindset in the mental health field. 00:01:52.609 --> 00:01:56.804 And then I just told myself that I just hadn't really gotten around to exploring much around Brene Brown. 00:01:56.957 --> 00:02:00.738 And I just loved her TED Talk. And then that led into McKinley and I had a great, 00:02:01.184 --> 00:02:04.951 Mind the Mirror Me episode. so I really would encourage you to go check that out. 00:02:05.124 --> 00:02:09.857 And the Murder on the Couch podcast. 00:02:10.304 --> 00:02:15.358 And if you, we have a new one coming this week that is absolutely not about murder, 00:02:15.424 --> 00:02:19.895 but if you enjoy the dynamic between my daughter Sydney and I, especially from the last episode, 00:02:20.044 --> 00:02:22.424 and again, do yourself a favor, go to the last episode. 00:02:22.424 --> 00:02:26.457 It was about the escape of Danilo Cavalcante and just 10 minutes in. 00:02:26.624 --> 00:02:31.031 I would love for you to listen to the whole thing, but if you need to, 10 minutes in, no further, 00:02:31.224 --> 00:02:34.523 10 minutes, and then for the next two minutes after that, it is one of my favorite moments 00:02:34.904 --> 00:02:36.513 in podcasting history, period. 00:02:37.134 --> 00:02:40.996 So, there are a couple of topics that I've wanted to get back to sooner than later on, 00:02:41.504 --> 00:02:42.742 waking up to narcissism. 00:02:43.304 --> 00:02:49.344 It's that funny concept where there's, this is the 92nd episode, and I know, I know for 00:02:49.344 --> 00:02:53.784 a fact that it's not, people aren't going back and listening to the entire back catalog. 00:02:53.784 --> 00:02:57.624 I know I get some emails from people that say they are, and I'm very grateful, but there 00:02:57.624 --> 00:03:02.704 are topics that we've talked about in the past that just need to be circled back around 00:03:02.704 --> 00:03:06.454 and discussed, and especially those that have really resonated with listeners. 00:03:06.624 --> 00:03:10.821 So two of those, the most downloaded episode, and I was surprised, I looked at this recently, 00:03:11.224 --> 00:03:13.377 it was the episode on the amygdala hijack. 00:03:13.664 --> 00:03:15.583 And so I already have a follow up in the works on that. 00:03:16.184 --> 00:03:19.664 But the second most popular is the episode on confabulation, because I think it's one 00:03:19.664 --> 00:03:24.387 of those concepts where once you hear it, and you understand it, you truly start to see it everywhere. 00:03:25.064 --> 00:03:29.264 And at least it helps provide a little more context, possibly for some of the crazy making 00:03:29.264 --> 00:03:30.944 that you may find yourself in. 00:03:30.944 --> 00:03:35.564 So today starts with a letter or an email, as so many episodes now do, and I'm grateful 00:03:35.564 --> 00:03:40.024 for that. So please keep those coming. And then we're going to go into confabulation 00:03:40.024 --> 00:03:42.524 and we're going to hit it from a lot of different angles. I've got a lot of different examples 00:03:42.524 --> 00:03:47.271 that have come up over the last year or so since the first confabulation episode. And, 00:03:47.844 --> 00:03:51.844 I think that you'll definitely learn something new today. And I think it may also be equally 00:03:51.844 --> 00:03:56.498 frustrating along with enlightening, but I want to warn you that the same rules apply. 00:03:57.084 --> 00:04:01.164 Dare I say the first rule of a narcissist fight club that you don't talk about narcissist 00:04:01.164 --> 00:04:31.164 Fight Club. And I'm trying to cram the Fight Club movie reference in there and make it work. But just as you don't say, hey, I think you are a narcissist to somebody. If you're truly interacting with an extremely emotionally immature individual or a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath, oh, my. Now I can't help but doing that. Think of Wizard of Oz, lions and tigers and bears. Oh, my. And it probably isn't even that. That might actually be a memory that I am confabulating from Wizard of Oz. Who knows if that's even a line there. But 00:04:28.276 --> 00:04:31.319 telling somebody that you think that they may be confabulating their memory. 00:04:31.706 --> 00:04:37.161 In one sense, you're handing them a brand new tool that they can't wait to use. So be aware. 00:04:37.521 --> 00:04:40.926 So let's get to the letter and let's get into today's episode. 00:04:41.761 --> 00:04:46.416 Okay, I couldn't help it. I paused right there and I went and googled and in fact, 00:04:46.515 --> 00:04:52.286 it is lions and tigers and bears. Oh my. And I was curious if it was even Wizard of Oz or if 00:04:52.286 --> 00:04:57.587 it was oh dear, but it looks like that was not a confabulated memory. But here's the letter. 00:04:57.740 --> 00:05:01.882 Dear Tony, first off I want to say a huge thank you for your podcast Waking Up To Narcissism. 00:05:01.966 --> 00:05:03.484 It's been a game changer for me. 00:05:03.916 --> 00:05:07.486 I'm finally waking up to my own emotional immaturity and for that I am grateful. 00:05:07.486 --> 00:05:11.766 However, as I become more self-aware, I can't help but notice how often my wife seems to, 00:05:12.495 --> 00:05:16.246 be put in quotation marks lie to avoid feeling any uncomfortable feelings. 00:05:16.246 --> 00:05:19.366 For example, last week she told me that she was late coming home because she got caught 00:05:19.366 --> 00:05:22.614 in traffic but when I checked the traffic app, the roads were clear. 00:05:23.006 --> 00:05:26.046 Another time she said she couldn't answer my call because her phone died but later I 00:05:26.046 --> 00:05:28.564 I saw that her phone was close to fully charged. 00:05:29.166 --> 00:05:32.174 In the past, when I've tried to point out these inconsistencies, she gets angry, 00:05:32.326 --> 00:05:34.641 never owns up to it, and I end up apologizing. 00:05:34.726 --> 00:05:37.882 Then comes the silent treatment, and eventually things go back to normal, 00:05:38.046 --> 00:05:39.178 and that's also in quotation marks. 00:05:39.966 --> 00:05:42.356 But each time this happens, I feel like I'm slowly going insane. 00:05:42.646 --> 00:05:45.137 I've heard you use the term confabulation quite a bit on your podcast. 00:05:45.506 --> 00:05:49.126 I'm a little bit late to the podcast. I have looked it up, and while I think I get the gist, 00:05:49.126 --> 00:05:51.709 I have a couple of questions. Don't we all confabulate a little bit? 00:05:52.132 --> 00:05:54.815 And does my wife know that she's changing her story? 00:05:55.246 --> 00:05:56.174 She has to, right? 00:05:56.666 --> 00:06:02.666 So can you please explain confabulation in more detail? And he says, and hey, like you joked in a previous episode, 00:06:02.666 --> 00:06:09.226 feel free to give me the narcissistic definition, meaning talk real slow and offer to draw it out with crayons. 00:06:09.226 --> 00:06:11.271 Ha ha, thanks again for all you do, sincerely. 00:06:11.746 --> 00:06:17.706 And just the name, he said, let's call me Mike-ish. So I don't know if that's a inside joke 00:06:17.706 --> 00:06:18.546 or that sort of thing. 00:06:18.546 --> 00:06:23.346 All right, Mike-ish, I appreciate your letter and those are great questions. 00:06:23.346 --> 00:06:26.782 I think the timing is perfect to talk a little bit more about confabulations. 00:06:27.565 --> 00:06:31.415 So I think it's important here to spend a little bit of time just talking about what 00:06:31.544 --> 00:06:34.929 confabulation is and then we'll tell some stories about what it looks like. 00:06:35.379 --> 00:06:40.006 And full, absolutely full disclosure that I've taken the abstract from Sam Vaknin's 00:06:40.215 --> 00:06:44.935 article Disassociation and Confabulation in Narcissistic Disorders. It was initially 00:06:44.935 --> 00:06:50.134 published in the Harold Scholarly Open Access Journal of Addiction and Addictive Disorders 00:06:50.521 --> 00:06:56.935 in March or March 25th of 2020. And then I took some of the concepts that Sam shared and I adapted 00:06:56.935 --> 00:07:02.775 the language to fit the concept of emotional immaturity, where Vaknin uses the words narcissist 00:07:02.775 --> 00:07:07.495 and psychopaths. And then I've also taken Eleanor Greenberg's The Truth About Narcissistic 00:07:07.553 --> 00:07:13.015 Personality Disorder and also taken some of that information. So this is, I give full credit to 00:07:13.015 --> 00:07:17.575 Sam Vaknin and Eleanor Greenberg, but I think for the work that I do around emotional immaturity 00:07:17.575 --> 00:07:22.713 and the things that I want to share, let me just go through what I've maybe collaborated with their 00:07:23.095 --> 00:07:27.415 work. So narcissists or emotionally immature individuals often disassociate 00:07:27.844 --> 00:07:32.264 or erase memories and are amnesiac because their contact with the world and. 00:07:32.742 --> 00:07:36.855 With others is through a fictitious construct, also known as the false self. 00:07:37.090 --> 00:07:40.815 So then narcissists and emotionally immature people don't experience reality 00:07:40.815 --> 00:07:44.455 directly, they experience it through a distorted lens. That's why I've spent 00:07:44.455 --> 00:07:48.775 quite a bit of time talking about these orange covered glasses or trying to step 00:07:48.775 --> 00:07:53.515 outside of your own ego or your own lens because for some people it feels like 00:07:53.591 --> 00:07:57.655 those lenses are just welded onto our eyes but if you're really trying to wake 00:07:57.885 --> 00:08:02.152 up to your own emotional immaturity then it's so important to recognize what that 00:08:02.375 --> 00:08:12.162 false self is. So then if you are experiencing reality through a distorted lens, if I go back to this what I wrote from Sam and Eleanor's work, the 00:08:12.335 --> 00:08:14.683 narcissistic lens initially developed in childhood. 00:08:15.250 --> 00:08:19.841 So narcissism or emotional immaturity initially develops as a series of coping strategies, 00:08:20.291 --> 00:08:24.009 that began as an adaptation to a childhood family situation that left the person 00:08:24.270 --> 00:08:29.069 with unstable self-esteem, the inability to regulate their self-esteem without external validation, 00:08:29.510 --> 00:08:34.540 and lower empathy. And so then this lens requires them to eliminate any information, 00:08:35.280 --> 00:08:40.140 that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative that they've constructed about 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:44.580 themselves. And I think that narrative is what comes into play more with the emotionally immature, 00:08:45.021 --> 00:09:03.628 that it doesn't even necessarily have to be this grandiose self-perception, but that narrative then is so necessary for the emotionally immature person to be able to excuse or explicate or legitimize their, whether it's their antisocial or their self-centered or their exploitive behaviors, choices, idiosyncrasies. 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:13.860 So, this confabulation, it allows them to get out of any bit of that discomfort or feeling like they were wrong or got something, they were in trouble. 00:09:14.431 --> 00:09:23.860 Because when they were a kid in childhood, if you got something wrong or were in trouble, then you felt like your very life depended upon it, that you would be abandoned and outcast. 00:09:24.649 --> 00:09:29.860 So then, in an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, the narcissists or emotionally immature people confabulate, 00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:37.860 meaning they invent plausible plug-ins and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred. 00:09:38.566 --> 00:09:43.220 So to outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies, but the narcissist or the 00:09:43.220 --> 00:09:48.460 emotionally immature person fervently believes in their reality. 00:09:47.352 --> 00:09:51.268 And I love this line, this one I think I pulled directly from Sam's work. 00:09:51.448 --> 00:10:03.124 He or she may not actually remember what had happened, but it surely could not have happened in any other way than the way that they need it to happen in order for them to fit the narrative that they have created, in essence, of themselves. 00:10:03.818 --> 00:10:13.126 So then these fillers are subject to frequent revision as narcissist or emotionally immature people's inner world and then external circumstances constantly evolve. 00:10:13.801 --> 00:10:18.802 So then it's this just play between what is happening to them and how they feel about themselves, 00:10:19.322 --> 00:10:23.802 So unlike somebody with self-awareness or who can self-confront who's on this road to differentiation, 00:10:24.289 --> 00:10:27.282 They are constantly working from a place of deep insecurities, 00:10:27.935 --> 00:10:33.702 Because they absolutely cannot be a fault because that would disrupt their internal narrative that if they are wrong, 00:10:34.227 --> 00:10:35.560 Then you may no longer love them, 00:10:36.190 --> 00:10:45.942 So they have to control the narrative in order to control the relationship So they will coerce somebody into loving or controlling them, but they cannot risk someone else having control in the relationship. 00:10:46.668 --> 00:10:54.942 So it goes back to that antagonistic attachment style. The narcissist or the emotionally immature person sees the relationship as a zero-sum game. 00:10:55.572 --> 00:11:01.918 Meaning that if you have a different opinion than they have, then you are saying that their opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. 00:11:02.395 --> 00:11:05.942 And that is where they feel like you are going to leave them and abandon them. 00:11:06.455 --> 00:11:12.382 Because they have to take control back in the relationship. And they'll do so by confabulating a narrative in real time. 00:11:12.382 --> 00:11:13.288 It couldn't have happened that way. 00:11:13.630 --> 00:11:17.096 You're wrong, I never said that. Or even they become the victim. 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.682 They need you to come rescue them. Then they take the one-up position 00:11:19.682 --> 00:11:21.408 and it becomes just emotionally exhausting. 00:11:22.281 --> 00:11:32.131 So this is why the narcissist and the emotionally immature people often contradict themselves, because tomorrow's confabulation or even last minute's confabulation often negates yesterday's or it negates the minute before. 00:11:32.274 --> 00:11:44.131 Because the narcissist and the emotionally immature do not remember previous tales because they are not invested in the emotions and the cognitions that are so integral to being parts of real memories. 00:11:44.202 --> 00:12:13.621 So I think just understanding that concept from that angle, that it's a matter of life or death, if they don't have control in the relationship, really sets the stage or paints a picture that then when you start to hear more of these examples about confabulation, you can then start to almost break it down like a, I don't know, a mathematical formula of, okay, so then when I said this, it's almost like a spar, you know, we're sparring, and then, oh, touche, I will counter your, I thought you were going to pick up bread tonight on the way home with. 00:12:13.931 --> 00:12:18.011 The I never said that. And as a matter of fact, I thought that you were the one that 00:12:18.011 --> 00:12:21.331 said that you like a particular kind of bread. So even if you would have asked me to pick 00:12:21.331 --> 00:12:25.331 up bread, that seems like you're setting me up for failure. And all of a sudden you as 00:12:25.331 --> 00:12:29.051 the person saying, I really did think you were going to pick up bread. You feel like 00:12:29.051 --> 00:12:33.651 you're crazy. And now that person and that simple exchange in that very moment and in 00:12:33.651 --> 00:12:38.771 real time has suddenly become very inflated on. Yeah. How dare you ask me to pick up the 00:12:38.771 --> 00:12:42.711 bread that that I won't even get right because you always change your mind about what kind 00:12:42.711 --> 00:12:46.570 of bread you like anyway. And you're sitting there thinking, I don't think so. 00:12:46.678 --> 00:12:55.011 That's not me. But here's what's so difficult about confabulation is that when that person now believes that they believe it in real time. So now they 00:12:55.011 --> 00:13:01.991 can't even believe that you don't remember the fact that you are you like a different kind of bread. And that's such a simple example, but one that 00:13:01.991 --> 00:13:06.071 came up right off the cuff because I do see the confabulated narrative occurring 00:13:06.071 --> 00:13:12.028 so often in the emails I receive or in a lot of the exchanges that I see in my office. 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:16.590 So, now that you have a better idea of confabulation, let me share some stories, 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:21.705 and I've changed a lot of the details to protect the confidentiality of those that have shared, 00:13:21.813 --> 00:13:25.150 but the basis of all the stories, again, based on a true story. 00:13:26.054 --> 00:13:30.670 I once worked with a couple who had been married. Boy, I'm so used to telling the jokes from ChatGPT 00:13:30.670 --> 00:13:34.993 that I felt like I was about to do a limerick. I once worked with a couple from Scotland who, 00:13:35.569 --> 00:13:40.475 but this was, this is the true story. It is the changed version of the true story. 00:13:40.952 --> 00:13:43.710 So I once worked with a couple who had been married for several years and they had settled 00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:47.550 into a life where they believed that they would not be able to have children. And the issue that 00:13:47.550 --> 00:13:51.719 they were coming into session with was one where they were struggling with some trust issues. 00:13:52.223 --> 00:13:56.030 The wife suspected her husband of being, we'll say, too close to an old friend from college 00:13:56.030 --> 00:13:59.950 that he had met through a reunion committee. And during the initial sessions, the husband 00:13:59.950 --> 00:14:03.269 mentioned that he had a daughter from a previous relationship a long time ago, 00:14:03.728 --> 00:14:07.470 but that he had lost contact with the mother and the daughter. So we worked on the couple's 00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:13.230 communication skills, hashtag four pillars for life, and they showed significant improvement 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:16.781 and they eventually stopped their sessions and rode off into the sunset. 00:14:17.270 --> 00:14:21.390 Years later, they returned and at that point they had, I'll say, five kids seeking help 00:14:21.390 --> 00:14:23.074 for parenting and relationship issues. 00:14:23.810 --> 00:14:26.510 And in a one-on-one session with the wife where we were just starting to get caught, 00:14:27.224 --> 00:14:31.330 up, I asked about the husband's daughter from his previous relationship purely from a, well, 00:14:31.330 --> 00:14:33.246 how does he parent her aspect? 00:14:34.543 --> 00:14:39.350 The wife broke down saying that her husband now denies ever having a daughter and will gaslight anybody who brings it up. 00:14:39.810 --> 00:14:44.040 When I spoke to the husband, he also denied it and he questioned if his wife was spreading lies about him. 00:14:44.410 --> 00:14:48.145 Later, the wife showed me an email from her father-in-law confirming that he was still, 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:50.117 the father-in-law was still financially supporting 00:14:50.450 --> 00:14:55.550 the daughter that his son had had, even though his son had created this narrative 00:14:55.550 --> 00:14:59.191 where she didn't exist and they literally hadn't spoken about her in years. 00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:00.910 Put that over on the side. 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:06.430 Here's another one. a client who was a successful entrepreneur, but had a troubled past involving substance 00:15:06.430 --> 00:15:09.950 abuse. He'd been clean for years and was now married and had a couple of kids. However, 00:15:09.950 --> 00:15:14.490 his wife was concerned about his tendency to completely deny his past. He had told their 00:15:14.490 --> 00:15:18.130 children and even some friends that he had never struggled with addiction. And his wife 00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:21.390 showed me letters from his sister thanking him for overcoming his addiction and being 00:15:21.390 --> 00:15:26.790 an inspiration to her family. And then when confronted, he really strongly denied ever 00:15:26.790 --> 00:15:31.790 having a substance abuse problem or even ever trying any of those substances and then accused 00:15:31.790 --> 00:15:36.352 his wife and sister of trying to tarnish his, at that point, pretty stellar reputation. 00:15:37.090 --> 00:15:42.490 So in both of these stories, the men had confabulated to such an extent that they genuinely believed 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:43.419 their altered narrative. 00:15:44.130 --> 00:15:48.570 So the first guy couldn't face the guilt of abandoning his daughter, and the second 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:53.025 guy couldn't reconcile his current self with his past self as an addict. 00:15:53.889 --> 00:16:01.172 And it's as if their brains had created these protective narratives, and then any evidence to the contrary was then seen as a threat. 00:16:01.667 --> 00:16:08.706 And that what was odd about that was not just a threat, but it would lead to this almost aggressive type of gaslighting. 00:16:08.752 --> 00:16:14.432 This is why gaslighting, I think, is so potent for somebody who has confabulated their narrative. 00:16:14.963 --> 00:16:22.705 It's that their brain has rewritten history to protect them from the emotional pain, and now they will defend this version of reality at all costs. 00:16:23.101 --> 00:16:38.739 So, it's now not just them trying to convince you, they've already convinced themselves, so their confabulation is so deeply ingrained that presenting them with contrary evidence, even like a photo or an email, won't just be seen as false, but now it's an attack on their reality. 00:16:39.476 --> 00:16:45.739 And I really believe that understanding this concept can be really crucial when dealing with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals. 00:16:45.739 --> 00:16:52.739 Because it's not just about what they're willing to admit, but what they're capable of admitting, given the narratives that they've constructed to protect themselves. 00:16:53.052 --> 00:17:04.739 We're going to talk about even more things around confabulation, because I really do believe that it's one of the most powerful and potentially impactful concepts when learning more and more about interacting with narcissists or emotionally immature people. 00:17:04.739 --> 00:17:08.819 For people. Let me go into more details here and then we'll talk about more of the definition, 00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:13.359 but I want to paint the picture in story, I guess, because I had a, this one, I did 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.499 have a pretty fascinating session with a couple. They gave me permission to share their story 00:17:17.499 --> 00:17:22.459 and again, with details change for confidentiality, but let's call them Tina and Jerry. So years 00:17:22.459 --> 00:17:26.927 ago, both of them struggled with substance abuse and then Jerry eventually moved away 00:17:27.008 --> 00:17:32.819 and joined a rehab program and more than just joined a rehab program where he was actually 00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:38.179 a mentor for others and actually played a pretty big role in this rehabilitation program. 00:17:38.179 --> 00:17:43.139 Tina too then managed to turn her life around and she became sober. And at that time, and 00:17:43.139 --> 00:17:47.659 it was a significant period of time, they had lost touch with each other. So it wasn't 00:17:47.659 --> 00:17:51.260 that they were going off and then they were going to come back as both being sober, but, 00:17:51.739 --> 00:17:55.419 they reconnected years later back in their hometown and they decided to come to me for 00:17:55.419 --> 00:18:00.259 premarital counseling. So in one of our sessions, Tina wanted to reflect on their past and to 00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:01.946 to appreciate how far that they had come. 00:18:02.379 --> 00:18:07.455 And Jerry, however, had in essence, no memory of the events that Tina had described. 00:18:08.113 --> 00:18:12.459 And it wasn't just a fog of substance abuse, because I think that's what somebody might assume 00:18:12.459 --> 00:18:15.619 in this scenario, but he genuinely couldn't recall. 00:18:15.619 --> 00:18:18.259 And you could tell that he really wanted to, because he trusted Tina. 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:21.099 And I think at that point, I had built up trust with him as well. 00:18:21.099 --> 00:18:25.059 So here's where it gets kind of interesting, that I had worked with Tina during her time with Jerry, 00:18:25.059 --> 00:18:26.342 way back in the day. 00:18:26.439 --> 00:18:34.239 So I was really confident that her account was very accurate. And we started exploring Jerry's childhood, which was just marred 00:18:34.239 --> 00:18:40.039 by an abusive, narcissistic father. And that led us to just discuss the concept of confabulation 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:44.379 when it came to, he was looking for explanations of how could his dad believe certain things 00:18:44.379 --> 00:18:47.179 and just be so confident when his dad would gaslight him. 00:18:48.020 --> 00:19:01.559 So, we're talking more about the concepts of confabulation with Jerry, and that's where he asked me, he just said, he became emotional and he asked if I believed Tina's stories about Jerry and Tina's past relationship. 00:19:02.171 --> 00:19:16.870 And I assured him that I did, having known Tina for years before she met him. And then Jerry had a bit of an emotional breakthrough, because here we were talking about his childhood, his narcissistic abuse from his dad, and him wondering how on earth could this happen, and I'm throwing out just some concepts around confabulation. 00:19:16.870 --> 00:19:41.870 And so again he said he has this emotional breakthrough. He said that whenever he tries to think about that period in his life, the period where he was interacting with Tina, before he became not only sober but then became a mentor and helped to change other people's lives, he said that his brain almost just felt like it just shut down, as if telling him that there's really no point in revisiting a past that really doesn't align with who he is now. 00:19:41.870 --> 00:19:46.270 Now. And he even mentioned that when he saw old photos of himself that he just thought that they 00:19:46.270 --> 00:19:50.973 were photoshopped because he said he couldn't believe that he was ever that person and looked 00:19:51.072 --> 00:19:55.790 that down or distraught and he felt like that just was a completely different person than who he was. 00:19:56.518 --> 00:20:01.390 So while Jerry couldn't suddenly remember everything, he said he reached this point 00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:05.310 of acceptance that he realized that he felt like his brain had really confabulated the 00:20:05.310 --> 00:20:09.544 stories of his past to protect him from a lifestyle that nearly destroyed him. 00:20:10.111 --> 00:20:14.830 And this understanding allowed him to trust Tina and then validate her experiences saying, 00:20:14.830 --> 00:20:17.808 okay, I don't remember those things, but I trust you. 00:20:17.871 --> 00:20:20.887 And so I believe that those happened even if he couldn't remember them himself. 00:20:21.390 --> 00:20:24.515 So it was almost like a moment of grace and acceptance for both of them. 00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:28.233 And that helped allow them to move forward in their relationship with this, 00:20:28.670 --> 00:20:30.897 almost like this newfound depth of understanding. 00:20:31.357 --> 00:20:37.100 And I feel like that story itself just illustrates how confabulation can serve as a protective mechanism. 00:20:37.510 --> 00:20:43.636 But again, it creates these gaps in not only our relationships, but our self-awareness, and did it. 00:20:44.437 --> 00:20:50.527 Starts to show that I think with the right support maybe an understanding and safety that it can it can be possible to navigate these 00:20:50.964 --> 00:20:58.007 complex emotional landscapes and Then start to find more of this path to mutual understanding and growth and I know I find this in my own relationship where? 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:06.487 There I have this fear I do of Alzheimer's of dementia And and so I know that sometimes if my wife will say don't you remember a certain thing? 00:21:06.487 --> 00:21:13.127 My immediate response is that that didn't happen if I don't remember it or then the secondary response comes up and says oh my gosh 00:21:13.127 --> 00:21:17.767 I'm going crazy. But then if I have trust for this person, which I do, then I can say, 00:21:17.767 --> 00:21:22.087 man, I don't really remember that, but tell me or set the stage for me. Tell me what was going on 00:21:22.087 --> 00:21:26.247 or what was that like for you? And sometimes that'll jar memory, but then other times it might 00:21:26.247 --> 00:21:31.687 not quite jar anything loose. But in that moment, I can still validate her experience and not say, 00:21:31.687 --> 00:21:36.567 that's ridiculous. I didn't do that. You're trying to hurt me. So the confabulation piece, 00:21:36.567 --> 00:21:39.864 again, it's pretty complicated when you look at it from a lot of different angles, 00:21:40.167 --> 00:21:46.463 Because I think what that leads to is, while confabulation can be this genuine psychological phenomenon, 00:21:46.841 --> 00:21:53.467 then once, and this is where I talked about not handing the tools over to somebody that is emotionally immature and narcissistic, 00:21:53.628 --> 00:21:57.544 that it could also then somewhat be used as an excuse to avoid accountability. 00:21:58.084 --> 00:22:03.018 And if that is the case, then I would definitely encourage people to do what we talk about often on this podcast, 00:22:03.513 --> 00:22:08.977 trust your gut, that if something feels off, it most likely is, it might, or a very strong possibility that it would be, 00:22:09.481 --> 00:22:14.727 Because your intuition is a real powerful tool in assessing the sincerity, oftentimes, of someone else's claims. 00:22:14.727 --> 00:22:19.527 Now, that doesn't mean that you then have to break down their reality. We're back to that concept of differentiation. 00:22:19.690 --> 00:22:24.907 But it's time to start just listening to your gut, trusting your instincts, and look for patterns. 00:22:24.907 --> 00:22:28.867 I think this is a really fascinating part of what I see often in therapy is, 00:22:28.867 --> 00:22:34.547 is this the first time that they've claimed now confabulation, or does it start to become a recurring theme whenever they're cornered? 00:22:34.625 --> 00:22:38.136 Because consistent use of this excuse can start to be a red flag. 00:22:38.649 --> 00:22:42.529 And I remember way back in the day when I talked about narcissistic medical exits, 00:22:42.907 --> 00:22:48.272 that when the narcissist is cornered or then things or the blame is somewhat being shifted onto them, 00:22:48.427 --> 00:22:54.457 or they're being asked a question that is uncomfortable, or attention has moved away from the narcissist, 00:22:54.827 --> 00:23:00.254 then often they will start to have the heart palpitations or the phantom pains or needing to sit down 00:23:00.307 --> 00:23:01.147 or that sort of thing. 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.047 So you really can't start to look for patterns that will happen. 00:23:04.047 --> 00:23:05.836 And that same thing can happen with confabulation. 00:23:06.187 --> 00:23:12.587 If is there a confabulated narrative only when that's something that the emotionally immature narcissistic person 00:23:12.927 --> 00:23:15.423 would have to take some ownership or claim fault in. 00:23:15.936 --> 00:23:19.105 And then I really feel like seeking professional help is always helpful. that if you are... 00:23:19.708 --> 00:23:23.398 Dealing with somebody who frequently claims to not remember significant events or actions, 00:23:23.398 --> 00:23:27.958 especially ones that are pretty significant to the relationship, it might be helpful to 00:23:27.958 --> 00:23:31.158 consult a mental health professional because they can maybe provide a little bit more of an 00:23:31.158 --> 00:23:36.278 objective perspective and might even be able to start pointing you in the right direction or give 00:23:36.278 --> 00:23:41.638 you the tools to be able to stay present even in the midst of confabulation. And then our old 00:23:41.638 --> 00:23:45.238 friend boundaries, because whether or not somebody is confabulating, you have the right to protect 00:23:45.238 --> 00:23:50.158 yourself emotionally and psychologically. So it's okay to make it pretty clear when 00:23:50.158 --> 00:23:54.118 behavior is unacceptable and then stick to those boundaries. But then remember, boundaries 00:23:54.118 --> 00:23:58.112 are a bit of a challenge when you are working with somebody that is emotionally immature. 00:23:58.798 --> 00:24:02.352 And don't ignore the impact, because even if somebody is genuinely confabulating, it 00:24:02.638 --> 00:24:06.638 doesn't negate the impact of their actions on you or others, because you're still going 00:24:06.638 --> 00:24:11.538 to feel the feelings. So that might help you understand a little bit more clearly what 00:24:11.538 --> 00:24:16.098 is happening, but that doesn't mean that you still have to then put, shove your 00:24:16.098 --> 00:24:20.538 feelings down. And then, but I think it does also cause us to be cautious with 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:24.458 things like reconciliation. Because if somebody claims to have confabulated 00:24:24.458 --> 00:24:28.498 harmful or destructive behavior, then I think it's still very, a very good idea 00:24:28.498 --> 00:24:33.138 to be cautious in how quickly you return to the status quo. Because I still 00:24:33.138 --> 00:24:36.858 believe that, and I will tell you, if there's something that I have been told 00:24:36.858 --> 00:24:41.178 that I'm doing, and even if I don't know if I've done that, or I'm, there's a 00:24:41.178 --> 00:24:43.663 a chance that my own memory has been confabulated, 00:24:43.778 --> 00:24:48.078 then if that is somebody I care about, then of course I don't want to see them hurt. 00:24:48.078 --> 00:24:51.990 And so that's something that I can definitely take a look at or work on. 00:24:52.458 --> 00:24:56.378 And just education is always key. The more you know about confabulation, 00:24:56.378 --> 00:25:00.418 which is why I wanna put out another episode like this, and other psychological phenomenon, 00:25:00.418 --> 00:25:02.073 the less likely you are to be manipulated. 00:25:02.578 --> 00:25:06.498 I think it was the old schoolhouse rock that told us that knowledge is power. 00:25:06.498 --> 00:25:11.258 And I introduced this concept a few weeks ago and it's gotten a lot of positive feedback, 00:25:11.258 --> 00:25:13.551 but it's okay to keep records. and. 00:25:14.523 --> 00:25:18.853 When people are keeping records, it can be for your own sanity. So, in some cases, keeping a 00:25:18.853 --> 00:25:23.013 record of interactions can be really helpful, especially if you suspect maybe that somebody 00:25:23.013 --> 00:25:28.213 is using confabulation as an excuse. And that can be useful in both your personal and at times, 00:25:28.213 --> 00:25:33.973 even legal contexts. I think that the concept a few weeks ago was when people feel bad if they're. 00:25:34.904 --> 00:25:39.093 Jotting down notes, that if it's for your own sanity, then that is definitely something that 00:25:39.093 --> 00:25:43.733 it is good. It's also known sometimes as journaling. And it's okay to write down, 00:25:43.733 --> 00:25:48.453 okay, but I'm not crazy because this is what he or she said on this date, and now 00:25:48.453 --> 00:25:52.253 they have no memory or no recollection. But I'm also noticing that then they sure 00:25:52.253 --> 00:25:55.373 seem to remember these times where they were in the right or I was in the wrong 00:25:55.373 --> 00:25:59.933 or that sort of thing. So that's, that's perfectly okay, to keep notes or records 00:25:59.933 --> 00:26:05.593 in that scenario. Okay, so let's go back to this concept that when someone is 00:26:05.593 --> 00:26:07.123 confabulating their narrative, 00:26:07.233 --> 00:26:10.713 then they also become experts at gaslighting. 00:26:10.713 --> 00:26:13.913 What does that look like? Because again, in its simplest form, 00:26:13.913 --> 00:26:17.602 confabulation is when somebody fills in the gaps in their memory with, 00:26:17.753 --> 00:26:22.953 and I'm calling them made up stories or facts, where in reality, there's little bits of truth 00:26:22.953 --> 00:26:28.473 in some of the stories, I'm sure, but that they genuinely believe those stories or facts are true. 00:26:28.473 --> 00:26:32.513 So it's not just lying for the sake of lying, although it often will feel that way, 00:26:32.513 --> 00:26:37.254 and your mileage may vary, and I'm not saying that every single time it's confabulation, 00:26:37.313 --> 00:26:40.657 but I think this is just one of those tools that I want you to have in your tool chest. 00:26:41.071 --> 00:26:45.513 But it's, again, I think that you would almost see it as it's not just lying for the sake of lying, 00:26:45.513 --> 00:26:48.255 it's more like storytelling to fill in the blanks. 00:26:48.513 --> 00:26:52.603 But the storyteller believes their own tale as they tell the story. 00:26:52.713 --> 00:26:53.935 So why would somebody do this? 00:26:54.633 --> 00:26:57.373 If we go back to that narcissist and emotionally immature individuals, 00:26:57.373 --> 00:27:02.073 confabulation is a coping mechanism because it's a way to maintain that internal narrative 00:27:02.073 --> 00:27:04.855 which is so crucial for their self-esteem their self-image. 00:27:05.638 --> 00:27:12.288 Because, again, we see that individuals often have a distorted lens through which they view the world. 00:27:12.288 --> 00:27:16.448 And this lens was likely formed in childhood as a series of coping strategies. 00:27:16.448 --> 00:27:22.040 And I often like to say that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. 00:27:22.472 --> 00:27:27.008 So imagine a kid growing up in a home where the parents never take responsibility for their actions. 00:27:27.225 --> 00:27:29.408 Because in that kind of an environment, the child learns early on. 00:27:29.408 --> 00:27:31.493 Not even learns, it just is. 00:27:31.843 --> 00:27:33.088 But I guess that is learning. 00:27:33.626 --> 00:27:39.775 But they just, they see that admitting to being wrong leads to punishment or quite frankly, they just never see it happen. 00:27:40.088 --> 00:27:46.220 What does the child do? They develop a survival instinct to never be wrong because then they never have to be accountable. 00:27:46.742 --> 00:27:51.588 I feel like this is the birth of gaslighting as a defense mechanism because the child learns a couple of things there. 00:27:51.666 --> 00:27:57.588 One, by gaslighting, they avoid the discomfort of admitting that they've done something wrong and were wired to get rid of discomfort. 00:27:57.588 --> 00:28:01.191 But number two, they also dodge the punishment that comes with that admission. 00:28:02.109 --> 00:28:05.308 And so here's where the confabulation part becomes super important, 00:28:05.308 --> 00:28:09.842 that the better the mind is at believing its own narrative, then the more effective it is at gaslighting, 00:28:10.310 --> 00:28:13.515 and then getting its needs met. So it's like the self-reinforcing loop. 00:28:13.968 --> 00:28:18.700 So the individual may not remember exactly what happened, but in their mind, it couldn't have happened any other way 00:28:19.068 --> 00:28:21.581 than the way that they have constructed, they've confabulated. 00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:27.333 And this narrative then serves to protect them from both internal discomfort and external consequences. 00:28:27.788 --> 00:28:30.772 So when you look at the joke, the dog ate my homework, 00:28:31.421 --> 00:28:35.888 If they can sell you on the dog ate their homework, as a matter of fact, they're convinced at some point 00:28:35.888 --> 00:28:39.955 where I think the dog probably really did eat my homework because it certainly isn't here with me, 00:28:40.548 --> 00:28:44.789 but they've confabulated out the part where it's because I didn't do it. 00:28:45.428 --> 00:28:47.580 But at that point, they can sell that story. 00:28:48.228 --> 00:28:52.428 So confabulation isn't just about filling in memory gaps, but it's about creating a reality 00:28:52.428 --> 00:28:53.656 where they are never wrong, 00:28:54.388 --> 00:28:59.967 which in turn makes them incredibly effective at gaslighting because they've essentially trained their mind 00:29:00.048 --> 00:29:05.008 to believe their own distortions, making it easier to convince others of this alternate reality. 00:29:05.809 --> 00:29:10.958 And I think what that leads to next is, how does it happen so quickly? 00:29:11.607 --> 00:29:16.859 Because if you are not an expert emotionally immature narcissistic human being, 00:29:17.332 --> 00:29:20.015 then sometimes people say, I can't even come up with things that fast. 00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.059 Well, for the narcissist or the emotionally immature individual, 00:29:23.418 --> 00:29:26.424 confabulation is, I think, it's like a reflex. 00:29:26.865 --> 00:29:31.459 It's not necessarily a premeditated act, although I'm sure that a lot of times there are going to be, 00:29:31.459 --> 00:29:39.859 as if everything, everything on a spectrum, There will be times where you can almost watch the person's gears turning on how they can get out of this thing. 00:29:39.859 --> 00:29:42.890 But for some, it's not this premeditated act. 00:29:42.944 --> 00:29:46.680 It's more like an instant reaction to any situation that threatens their self-image. 00:29:47.274 --> 00:29:49.699 This is why their narrative can change in the blink of an eye. 00:29:49.739 --> 00:29:54.475 One moment they're saying one thing and the next they've spun a whole new tale that supports their worldview. 00:29:54.939 --> 00:29:59.739 So I almost feel like we're talking about the aha moment or the epiphany that you might be tempted to provide them. 00:29:59.739 --> 00:30:04.261 You might think, oh, if I can just show them the error of their ways, then they'll get it, then they'll change. 00:30:04.747 --> 00:30:10.719 But here's the kicker. Trying to give them that moment is like sending them to, uh, I was thinking about this almost like confabulation gym. 00:30:10.739 --> 00:30:14.253 I couldn't think of it any better way for a workout because you're not breaking their pattern. 00:30:14.722 --> 00:30:20.852 You're actually helping them exercise their, for lack of a better word, confabulation muscles. Look at it this way. 00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:27.159 If every time you engage and try to prove them wrong, you're essentially inviting them for a pickup game at confabulation park. 00:30:27.159 --> 00:30:30.519 You're giving them a chance to practice, to get better at their game, to sharpen their skills. 00:30:30.971 --> 00:30:37.434 And the more you play, the stronger they get at confabulating, while what starts to weaken is your own sanity. 00:30:38.082 --> 00:30:42.647 So what you think is in an attempt to enlighten them actually is fuel for the confabulated fire. 00:30:43.151 --> 00:30:55.979 So you're not pulling them out of their, their, it's funny, I'm, I want to say distorted reality and all this stuff in the news about Jodi Hildebrand and talking about her theories of distortion have got me rattled because it is so, 00:30:56.321 --> 00:30:57.819 that work that she was doing. 00:30:57.819 --> 00:31:02.719 So the opposite of the work that I do, but I can use this word in this correct situation, 00:31:02.719 --> 00:31:05.980 but so you're not pulling them out of their distorted reality you're diving in with them. 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:11.039 And in doing so you're getting tangled up in their web of alternate facts and fictional stories, 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.667 which will drive you more crazy, but then they are just getting stronger and stronger. 00:31:16.396 --> 00:31:20.846 And let's go back to gaslighting for a second because I would imagine that by 92 episodes 00:31:20.846 --> 00:31:23.846 into Waking Up to Narcissism, you're pretty familiar with gaslighting, 00:31:23.846 --> 00:31:28.446 but I think sometimes I forget that this is the world that I work in, the world that I live in. 00:31:28.446 --> 00:31:31.655 This could be somebody's first experience here on Waking Up to Narcissism, 00:31:31.886 --> 00:31:33.951 and you're hearing about gaslighting a lot. 00:31:34.022 --> 00:31:37.426 But it is, just as a quick refresher, it's when somebody manipulates you 00:31:37.426 --> 00:31:39.298 into questioning your own reality or sanity, 00:31:39.811 --> 00:31:43.126 and it's like they're holding a lighter to your perceptions and your memories 00:31:43.126 --> 00:31:45.068 and making you doubt what you knew to be true. 00:31:45.726 --> 00:31:49.566 So let's go back to painting this picture. So imagine you're in a conversation with your partner 00:31:49.566 --> 00:31:52.063 who happens to be a pro at confabulation. 00:31:52.406 --> 00:31:54.827 And you bring up something that they said last week that hurt your feelings. 00:31:55.446 --> 00:31:59.139 So instead of acknowledging it, they say, I mean, I didn't say that, you're remembering it wrong. 00:31:59.806 --> 00:32:02.227 And you're left scratching your head, you're kind of wondering if you're going crazy. 00:32:02.806 --> 00:32:05.576 And so then you find a suspicious text on their phone. 00:32:06.125 --> 00:32:11.139 So when you confront them, then they flip the script and say, why in the world are you snooping on my phone? 00:32:11.586 --> 00:32:12.678 Man, you are paranoid. 00:32:13.326 --> 00:32:17.286 So now you're not only doubting your initial concern, You're also questioning your own actions and motives. 00:32:17.286 --> 00:32:21.006 Am I paranoid? Well, wait, I am paranoid, but it's because of this kind of activity. 00:32:21.006 --> 00:32:25.525 But that's why when you bring that up to them, then it's just, we're back in confabulation park. 00:32:26.326 --> 00:32:30.046 So while you leave those conversations feeling like you're losing your grip on reality, 00:32:30.046 --> 00:32:32.393 the narcissist walks away feeling invigorated. Why? 00:32:32.926 --> 00:32:35.246 Because they just had a great workout at the confabulation gym. 00:32:35.246 --> 00:32:38.911 Every time that they successfully gaslight you, it's like they've scored a point in the pickup game 00:32:39.199 --> 00:32:40.090 at confabulation park. 00:32:40.566 --> 00:32:45.446 Then they leave that conversation feeling justified. And what's worse, they really do start thinking, 00:32:45.446 --> 00:32:47.490 okay, you are the crazy one, you are the paranoid one. 00:32:47.646 --> 00:32:49.741 And now they can bring up every time that you start talking, 00:32:50.126 --> 00:32:53.046 you're just being paranoid again, like that time that you started snooping around on my phone 00:32:53.046 --> 00:32:53.927 and didn't find anything. 00:32:54.526 --> 00:32:59.193 But then in your mind, you're thinking, but I did, I literally did find something. 00:32:59.626 --> 00:33:03.919 But what is crazy about that is now they're even making me think that, Wait, did I? 00:33:04.526 --> 00:33:05.954 Or was I just being paranoid? 00:33:06.683 --> 00:33:20.213 And that's the danger. That's why we still hear so much about going just straight on no contact when you start recognizing the emotional immaturity or narcissism in your relationship with fill-in-the-blank of the individual. 00:33:20.555 --> 00:33:31.484 And I understand that this is why I think things like confabulation or understanding these concepts more is so helpful because I know it's not just as simple as just leaving or just disappearing. 00:33:32.276 --> 00:33:52.369 So I think the way we can make this episode definitely different from the previous episode on confabulation, we've tried to go into a little bit more detail here today, but I want to also tie in confabulation with my best friend as of late, not chat GPT, but in differentiation because I've been going big on that on I feel like any podcast I can get my hands on. 00:33:52.533 --> 00:33:59.593 I am yes, I will quote myself from a previous episode and I see the irony in quoting myself on a podcast about narcissism, 00:34:00.354 --> 00:34:09.873 I want to jokingly say but if the shoe fits, but here's the quote Imagine every time somebody says or does something and you react you get mad happy or upset. It's like getting a pop quiz about yourself, 00:34:10.428 --> 00:34:11.133 Why did you feel that way? 00:34:11.418 --> 00:34:14.613 What is it saying about you because Murray Bowen the father of differentiation? 00:34:15.271 --> 00:34:20.376 Talked about the idea that we need to learn the difference between what we feel and think and what others feel and think and the, 00:34:20.933 --> 00:34:24.625 the better we get at this, the better we handle drama and stay calm and steady and we become more consistent. 00:34:25.093 --> 00:34:29.653 So when things go down in life and inevitably it will and you feel some kind of way, 00:34:29.653 --> 00:34:33.330 and yes, I really did say this part next, you get all up in your feelings. 00:34:34.193 --> 00:34:37.660 Then it's really about, it's giving you hints on who you are. 00:34:38.213 --> 00:34:43.277 So let's tie this into the concept of confabulation and dealing with emotionally mature narcissistic individuals. 00:34:43.853 --> 00:34:46.333 So when you're dealing with somebody who is a pro at confabulation, 00:34:46.333 --> 00:34:49.053 then it really can start to feel like you're losing your grip on reality 00:34:49.053 --> 00:34:50.812 because they're so good at spinning their narrative, 00:34:51.333 --> 00:34:52.694 that you start to question your own sanity. 00:34:52.893 --> 00:34:55.502 But here's where differentiation comes in as your secret weapon. 00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:00.010 Because differentiation does not mean you don't care about what the other person is saying or feeling. 00:35:00.391 --> 00:35:02.731 It means you can separate their thoughts and feelings from your own. 00:35:03.127 --> 00:35:06.010 So when they start to confabulate, you don't get sucked into their narrative. 00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:09.717 You can step back and say, Yeah, wait a minute. That's their version of reality. It's not mine. 00:35:10.010 --> 00:35:11.328 And here's the kicker. 00:35:12.156 --> 00:35:18.010 Back to practice. The more you practice differentiation, the less power that the narcissist has over you. 00:35:18.584 --> 00:35:21.708 Because they thrive on blurring the lines between their emotions and yours. 00:35:22.248 --> 00:35:29.290 They are the anti-differentiation person, making you doubt yourself so they can maintain control. 00:35:29.290 --> 00:35:34.689 But when you're clear about what you think and feel, then their confabulation tactics lose their potency. 00:35:35.310 --> 00:35:40.130 So the next time that you find yourself in a heated exchange with your local neighborhood narcissist 00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:44.030 or emotionally immature individual, remember that it is like a pop quiz about yourself. 00:35:44.030 --> 00:35:45.411 Why are you reacting the way you are? 00:35:45.930 --> 00:35:50.398 Fascinating, isn't it? What's it revealing about you? Oh, that I feel like I need to prove myself 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:52.964 to this person who is not curious. 00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:58.250 So use that as a moment or an opportunity for growth. Because the narcissist might be flexing 00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:02.270 those confabulation muscles, but you will now be flexing your differentiation muscles. 00:36:02.270 --> 00:36:06.510 And trust me, that's the gym membership that is worth investing in. 00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:10.150 Because by practicing differentiation, you're not just surviving these challenges 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:14.730 or these interactions, but you're starting to turn them into opportunities for personal growth. 00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:18.719 Now, I do not recommend going over into confabulation park and saying, who's got next? 00:36:18.990 --> 00:36:22.905 But if you're in these conversations, you're learning how to stay rooted in your own reality, 00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:25.165 even when somebody is trying to pull you into theirs. 00:36:25.615 --> 00:36:30.071 And that, my friends, is how you turn the tables and take back your power. 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:35.850 The differentiation is your gym membership to sanity, while the narcissist is just getting another workout 00:36:35.850 --> 00:36:36.787 at Confabulation Park. 00:36:37.290 --> 00:36:41.378 So I almost wanted to say, hey, choose your gym wisely. 00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:44.990 Let me just give one or two more narratives here and then we'll wrap things up. 00:36:45.465 --> 00:36:46.810 So let me jump into a metaphor. 00:36:46.810 --> 00:36:50.749 I think I wanna try a metaphor I think will resonate with a lot of people because this is where, 00:36:51.230 --> 00:36:55.448 when we still try to make sense of what they are going through. 00:36:56.241 --> 00:36:59.230 What the narcissist is going through, the emotionally immature person's going through 00:36:59.230 --> 00:37:01.156 and trying to explain confabulation. 00:37:01.390 --> 00:37:06.197 Imagine that you meet somebody who has been playing the piano since they were three or four years old. 00:37:06.790 --> 00:37:09.990 And I mean, they have been tickling those ivories for decades. 00:37:09.990 --> 00:37:13.669 And so for them, playing the piano is almost as natural as breathing. 00:37:14.083 --> 00:37:15.649 And I've had clients where that is the case. 00:37:16.310 --> 00:37:19.130 They don't even have to think about it. Their fingers just dance across the keys, 00:37:19.130 --> 00:37:22.330 and they create beautiful music effortlessly, and they can go play for hours, 00:37:22.330 --> 00:37:24.247 and it's just soothing for them. 00:37:24.967 --> 00:37:30.097 Now let's say that you decide to take up the piano lessons in your 40s. You sit down at the keyboard 00:37:30.097 --> 00:37:35.697 and it's a struggle. And I can honestly say that that has been the case for me. You're consciously 00:37:35.697 --> 00:37:39.457 thinking about every note, every finger movement, and it feels awkward and it feels unnatural. And 00:37:39.457 --> 00:37:43.057 you look at the person who's been playing since childhood and you think, how do they do it? 00:37:43.268 --> 00:37:47.537 Because it just looks so easy for them. Here's the kicker though. Ask that person. Try asking 00:37:47.537 --> 00:37:51.857 them. Ask the person to explain, how do you play the piano so effortlessly? And it's almost like 00:37:51.857 --> 00:37:58.797 Asking a fish to describe water to them. It's their natural environment. It's the well just it's what it feels like to be them. 00:37:59.554 --> 00:38:05.357 So let's relate this back to the emotionally immature or the narcissistic individual. They've been confabulating since they were kids 00:38:05.774 --> 00:38:07.962 It's their go-to coping mechanisms their default setting 00:38:08.157 --> 00:38:12.917 It's as natural to them as playing the piano is playing the piano is to our lifelong musician 00:38:12.917 --> 00:38:17.397 So when you ask them to explain why they confabulate it's like asking the pianist to explain how they play 00:38:17.397 --> 00:38:20.583 so effortlessly, to them, the question itself seems absurd. 00:38:20.709 --> 00:38:24.139 That they might even look at you like you've got a couple of heads and say, what do you mean? Why do I do it? 00:38:24.616 --> 00:38:29.189 First of all, I don't even know what you're talking about and you're painting me out to be this monster. 00:38:29.324 --> 00:38:32.037 And in doing so, I think that you're the monster and see what they just did there. 00:38:32.037 --> 00:38:34.113 They just confabulated the narrative right on you. 00:38:34.446 --> 00:38:37.877 And that's the challenge when dealing with emotionally immature, narcissistic individuals 00:38:37.877 --> 00:38:41.153 that they've been quote, playing the piano or confabulating for so long. 00:38:41.576 --> 00:38:42.899 That is just what they do. 00:38:43.597 --> 00:38:48.077 So we go back to that, calling someone out on something that they are not aware of. 00:38:48.077 --> 00:38:50.993 Not only do they not understand why you're making a big deal out of it, 00:38:51.092 --> 00:38:54.665 but they might even turn it back around on you and make you feel like you're the one who's out of touch. 00:38:55.077 --> 00:38:58.717 So the next time that you find yourself baffled by someone's confabulation, 00:38:58.717 --> 00:39:02.877 remember this piano metaphor, remember the gym memberships. You're essentially asking them 00:39:02.877 --> 00:39:06.909 to step out of their lifelong musical experience to see things from your perspective. 00:39:07.035 --> 00:39:08.403 And that's a really tough ask. 00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:11.757 Now, it's not impossible, but it's a bit like asking a fish to describe water 00:39:11.757 --> 00:39:14.479 because to them, it's just what it feels like to be them. 00:39:14.533 --> 00:39:18.602 Take this confabulation information with you and use it wisely, my friends, 00:39:18.846 --> 00:39:25.237 because if you have made it this far in this episode or even on the podcast in general, 00:39:25.377 --> 00:39:31.997 I know that you are out there trying to figure out things to make your life and probably your kids' lives 00:39:31.997 --> 00:39:33.555 or your family's lives even better. 00:39:33.843 --> 00:39:38.633 And just know that in doing the work that you're doing now, you are, you're changing that dynamic and that narrative. 00:39:39.237 --> 00:39:45.797 And a lot of times it's gonna not seem very fair the answers that you're gonna find on how to show up. 00:39:45.797 --> 00:39:48.823 When do I get to finally explain to this person what they're doing? 00:39:48.997 --> 00:39:54.828 And it can feel very almost paradoxical to hear that the answer of that is, oh, probably never. 00:39:55.899 --> 00:40:01.970 But the more that you understand what's going on, and the more that you show up differently in a relationship, it does change the dynamics of the relationship. 00:40:01.970 --> 00:40:05.870 And notice I didn't say, then it will get better and they will be nicer and you will live happily ever after. 00:40:06.693 --> 00:40:10.270 Now, do I hope that for everybody? Absolutely. I wouldn't have gotten into the profession that I did. 00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:25.370 But when you really start to understand that this is your first time on this journey of what it feels like to be you and you are the one that's trying to figure these things out, then there is going to be a nice shift that's either occurring right now or has recently occurred or will occur. 00:40:25.370 --> 00:40:30.999 Or soon where, and forgive me for going to this old trope, but you didn't know what you didn't know. 00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:36.810 And then you start learning, but you don't really do as much of the things that you're hearing 00:40:36.810 --> 00:40:37.958 as you would like to do. 00:40:38.130 --> 00:40:40.757 And that's frustrating. That's a place that you'll be for a little while. 00:40:40.910 --> 00:40:45.718 So settle in because that's where a lot of growth occurs, a lot of discomfort, but a lot of growth. 00:40:46.213 --> 00:40:50.804 And then you eventually move into this phase where you're doing all the things more than you don't, 00:40:51.070 --> 00:40:52.451 starts to feel a little bit better. 00:40:52.650 --> 00:40:58.996 And at some point you just become, and becoming differentiated and becoming one who feels okay 00:40:59.330 --> 00:41:00.247 in their own skin. 00:41:00.530 --> 00:41:05.361 And then the things that come with that, or you start to recognize that you are of worth, 00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:11.110 that you are lovable, that you don't have to prove to anybody that they need to love you 00:41:11.110 --> 00:41:14.489 because if they're not open to the idea of loving you, 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:16.163 it's kind of a them problem. 00:41:16.570 --> 00:41:19.270 Thanks for staying with me today. Send me any of your questions, comments. 00:41:19.270 --> 00:41:24.730 I'd love to hear any questions or thoughts or stories about your own experiences with confabulation. 00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:26.957 And I'll see you next time on Waking Up. 00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:35.190 Music.