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Music.

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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 89 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host Tony Overbay.

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I am the host of the Virtual Couch podcast as well as this one, Waking Up to Narcissism.

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Waking Up to Narcissism, premium question and answer, and then Murder on the Couch,

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which we have filmed another episode, my daughter Sydney and I. So if you haven't already subscribed

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or followed that podcast, please do. It's true crime meets therapy, and then The Mind,

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The Mirror, and Me with my daughter McKinley. And to show that it's not all nepotism, I,

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I also, just last week, the first episode of Love ADHD, where genius meets scatter,

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which is with my co-host and friend who just found out about her adult ADHD diagnosis

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while I've been sitting with mine for years and just loving every minute of it.

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It's Love ADHD and that just debuted last week as well. Actually, if you just wanna go sign up for my newsletter,

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last week's was specifically tailored to waking up to narcissism,

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where I talked about my five things that one must do when waking up to the narcissism

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or emotional immaturity in their relationships.

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And I almost feel like today, this is gonna be one of those PBS pledge drives

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that is going to date me. It was local public television.

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And back in the day, a couple of times a year, you're a kid and you're trying to watch,

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I don't know, Arthur, who I honestly never knew, was he a bear, was he an aardvark?

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But there are people talking when you tune in as a kid, and there are people on the phones,

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and they're trying to raise money, and you had no idea what was going on.

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But if you gave a certain amount, then you got a VHS tape of the history of goldfish.

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But I am not asking for money, although I guess it wouldn't hurt

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if you went to the Waking Up to Narcissism

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Premium Question and Answer Podcast and subscribed to that.

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But I would be grateful if you happen to be on Instagram and you just take a second and find

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the new Waking Up to Narcissism Instagram account, which is at WUTNpod,

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so Waking Up to Narcissism Pod, as in podcast,

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and just hit that follow.

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And it is, again, it's a new Instagram account.

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I will not provide you with a VHS cassette or anything about goldfish or bears or aardvarks,

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but I really would be grateful.

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And I really wanna get to today's topic because it's one that I've spent a lot of time researching.

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But if you have a second, maybe if this is my PBS pledge drive,

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not only if you can sign up for that Instagram account, but if you happen to like the content

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of Waking Up to Narcissism, and you don't mind hitting a rating button

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or leaving a review wherever you listen to your podcast,

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that would help a lot.

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It's really funny, at the risk of sounding manipulative because I'm truly coming from a place of authenticity

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and healthy ego, I'm humbled by all the positive feedback, all the good reviews, nothing warms my heart

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more than honestly reading your stories.

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I mean, it breaks my heart as well, but especially when somebody realizes that this is not,

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They're not alone, but then yet the stories are really hard.

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And I want to answer your questions and I want to read the stories and the poems and the haikus and everything.

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So please continue to send those in.

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I get a chance to read them and I love it when I can put something on the air.

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I probably had another half a dozen or so men, as a matter of fact, in the last couple of weeks who said,

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this is the way the pattern goes.

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In essence, they catch their wife listening to me. Then they hate me, my name, the sound of my voice.

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And then they listen because I think they want to pick me apart.

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And then they realized I am friend and I want to help. And then they're realizing a lot of things.

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My point, though, is every now and again, the man, the woman, the individual in that scenario doesn't make it past the part where they hate me and then they leave a bad review.

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And it's really fascinating because I really don't want to care about the bad reviews, but what they do is then it gives an overall negative or maybe a lower rating so then some people might pass on it, especially if they're on that fence of,

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I don't even know if I want to start going down the path of is my spouse or is my friend or partner or whoever it is.

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Narcissistic and I would love to get them listening to the content so we can get that narrative back to are they emotionally immature?

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Do I not know what I don't know and all those wonderful things that I love sharing on the podcast

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So it takes a lot of good reviews and good numbers then To make up for one person who just flies off the handle and gives a negative review, but I digress.

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So thank you everybody for your support So today's topic is one that I've been working on for a while, and it comes from a question from somebody that I will have on the show soon, in one of the group phone calls.

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So thank you, Lori. But we were talking about forgiveness and how we are counseled and encouraged and cajoled and made to feel almost bad if we don't forgive.

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You know, the adage, forgive and forget. Forgiveness is of God. And all those things that in the right context, I am with you.

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But let's talk about forgiveness versus acceptance and what that looks like.

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But first I want to spend some time.

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I'm going to set the table pretty intentionally because this really is a topic that we need to give it as much room as it needs to get to that point

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where we're talking about acceptance versus forgiveness.

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So I will never not feel like there's a math equation, two negatives.

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So I would like to always whenever I can talk about narcissism versus emotional

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immaturity, because that is a real significant thing to frame all the conversations that I think that we're having on this

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podcast. Well, maybe not all most all. So if we're exploring emotional immaturity within relationships, we're actually

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wanting to look at that, even in our relationship with ourself,

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because I will maintain that we're all emotionally immature until we're not. And while the term narcissism is literally

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featured in the title of my podcast, that I really like clarifying that narcissistic personality disorder is actually

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clinical diagnosis that affects a small population, a small portion of the population.

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And emotional immaturity, I would say, then, is more of a widespread issue, and one that, again, many of us experience until life situations enable personal growth, given that we're open to self-confrontation, taking ownership of things and accountability.

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Now with narcissism, I think it's important to talk about

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the clinical part of narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder because by definition, that involves

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a pervasive pattern of grandiosity,

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a lack of empathy, and a deep, deep need for excessive admiration.

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And these are fixed patterns that have significant impacts on the person's social and even occupational functioning.

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And so then a narcissistic person often then sees himself as uniquely deserving, and then they may exploit others

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achieve their goals, but this is because of the personality disorder. And because of that,

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it requires a specialized therapeutic intervention. And I mean, it's safe to say the prognosis varies,

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but because a true, grandiose, diagnosable narcissist or narcissistic personality disorder.

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Doesn't really dawn the doors at the therapist's office. So that's why I feel like a lot of the

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people that I see or that I'm more speaking to are emotionally immature. Because that,

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That, on the other hand, it's a more broad, I would say, common condition,

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and it can manifest as an inability to handle emotions,

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like uncomfortable emotions,

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then difficulty in understanding and respecting the feelings of others,

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a lack of self-reflection,

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and then an unwillingness to take responsibility for actions.

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Unlike narcissism, emotional immaturity is not necessarily a fixed state.

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It's typically a developmental phase or a byproduct of somebody's environment

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and the experiences that they've had, because those experiences can be what they saw modeled growing up.

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And that's why I talk so much about what do we do with our discomfort? Are we willing to get rid or sit with our discomfort? Are we trying to get rid of our discomfort?

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Now, over on the virtual couch, I'm going to talk in the next week or so about a couple of stories that are in the news, the mainline press.

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And there's one, and I will just throw the word, we'll put some alleged in here, but there's a case out about a woman named Ruby Franke and her therapist, Jodi Hildebrand.

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And I've had some interactions with people that have worked with Jodi, and it's really interesting because right there is a genesis of where you go in counseling.

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So, I want to encourage people to know that it is, of course, it's part of the human condition to feel uncomfortable, but that's our opportunity for growth.

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When we can sit with that discomfort, it can teach us a lot of things about ourselves.

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And I will talk more about this on this episode over on the virtual couch, but from some of the people that I have worked with that have worked with that therapist in the past, and this is all coming from directly from these people, so we'll admit that it might be just anecdotal evidence, but we're starting to hear more and more come out in the news about this.

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But there was a almost a completely different experience with discomfort there, which I think almost speaks to what we're talking about here of narcissism versus emotional immaturity, but where, you know, people there that were coming out of some of her programs were being told that if you have that discomfort, you have to get rid of it because and you're the only one that may know the person that's providing that you with that discomfort may be bad, it may be evil, and so then you need to do whatever you need to do to try to get them give that discomfort back to them.

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So you can see that it's a completely opposite approach, which I think is incredibly damaging.

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So, if you look at it...

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Emotional immaturity then more is this developmental phase or byproduct of one's environment versus the grandiosity of this is what you do, period.

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You can start to see the difference of narcissism, which is grandiose.

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There's a complete lack of empathy. It's not just that I don't want to sit with the uncomfortable emotions and I want to shut down or turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms or gaslight or it's there's no room for that because I am right.

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And if you are not listening to me, then you are absolutely wrong. Again, kind of the basis of that grandiosity.

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With emotional immaturity, when you start to get some self-awareness, be able to self-confront,

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a maybe more supportive environment, then individuals can, I'm not saying they always do.

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Because it takes a lot of work, but you can grow out of that immaturity.

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The importance of taking accountability, that is such a big part of learning to overcome

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our emotional immaturity. Taking accountability for somebody's actions, our own actions,

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it's a hallmark of emotional maturity. Because this involves acknowledging your own mistakes,

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understanding the impact that they may have on others, and then taking steps to rectify that,

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whether you are rectifying with that person, or if you can honestly recognize that it's okay.

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To make mistakes. It's okay to have, unfortunately, hurt someone's feelings,

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or even forgot to do something, or not followed up on something. And emotional maturity is owning

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that, sitting with the discomfort, using that as an opportunity for growth and connection with

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with somebody else. You start to show up more steady and calm and emotionally safe. But I digress. We've got so much to get to today. So I want to talk about some of the benefits of, first of all, taking ownership or acknowledging your role in things. And this is honestly, I want this to happen internally at first, because if I am really with an incredibly emotionally immature person that is not doing their own work, or a narcissist, you're in this scenario, you're actually handing them your buttons. So right now, I want you to just

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look internal and say, all right, am I doing this?

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Am I able to do this?

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And if so, then this is an opportunity for growth. Some of the benefits of taking ownership,

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self-understanding, by acknowledging our flaws and our mistakes, we get a clearer picture of who we are,

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which is one of the main first steps towards self-improvement.

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Again, I'll probably say this a bunch of times, but I'm talking about this from a standpoint of this is for you to listen to, and this is for you to then self-identify.

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Because if you are saying, if you go to your, if you feel like you're in an emotionally abusive or a relationship with somebody that's emotionally immature, and you're saying,

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I just heard this this podcast and I I realized I don't take ownership of my own stuff. Oh, you just handed him a button

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so then at that point now it becomes part of their repertoire or the buttons they can push if,

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They don't want to take ownership or accountability is something kind of ironic

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It will improve your relationships taking ownership or accountability with more emotionally mature people,

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Because accountability starts to foster trust and understanding in relationships my bad. Oh, I'm so sorry

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I didn't mean that, or you know what, you're right.

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I handled that not in a way that I'm very, very proud of.

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And that takes courage, and that provides emotional safety, especially when that's done consistently over time.

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So it shows that you respect the feelings and experiences of others.

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Now what's ironic again about emotional immaturity is someone may even say, well,

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I don't want to hurt that person's feelings. So I am respecting their feelings,

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and I am respecting their experience.

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But in reality, are you not giving them an opportunity to show up?

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Are you not giving yourself an opportunity to have even a deeper connection?

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So another benefit is personal growth. Taking accountability and ownership

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involves going through some discomfort,

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but it's a process that I promise you inevitably leads to a type of growth,

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some sort of personal growth,

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which then will lead to some overall good old life satisfaction,

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because over time, taking control of your actions and your, I mean, in that essence,

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your life tends to lead to a greater satisfaction and just an overall well-being.

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So in a mature relationship, both partners, and I'm talking, this is the ideal version,

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both partners are ideally working toward a level of emotional understanding.

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They recognize that emotional maturity is a journey. It's a goal, it's heading toward this destination.

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It's not a final destination either.

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It's an ongoing destination, but it does become easier.

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But it involves sitting with discomfort, humbling oneself and being vulnerable,

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all with the goal of mutual growth and a deeper, more authentic connection.

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Let me set the table. This is one of these based off of a true story. Talk about two friends, and I was talking about a PBS pledge drive earlier.

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Takes me back to the day, we're going to talk about Tom and Jerry, not the cat and mouse, which I'm not really sure which one is which.

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But let's call these two real friends Tom and Jerry. And I worked with one of these people.

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But they both grew up in a similar neighborhood, but their home lives were incredibly different.

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This was a particular land, a land far away, where there was a rather affluent area, and then there was a less affluent, significantly less affluent area that was the proverbial across the tracks, but they both went to the same school.

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So, these guys were friends.

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Tom's family was affluent, but they were very emotionally distant.

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They didn't spend a lot of time together, and most things were, most feelings were bought with money.

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So his parents gave him whatever he wanted and everything he wanted materially, but they rarely offered emotional support or especially the emotional support that a child needed.

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Now, I'll be honest, I'm working with Jerry when we were discussing all this, so Tom truly didn't know what he didn't know.

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Now, on the other hand, Jerry's family did not have much in terms of material wealth, but they were pretty emotionally present, but they were pretty inconsistent, bless their hearts, and they were incredibly overprotective.

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So, he does feel like they almost protected him too much, so that he did not necessarily

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know the right way to show up in emotionally abusive friendships or in situations where

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he had some strong opinions, but he didn't want to upset anybody or make anybody mad.

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As Tom and Jerry, the two friends grew into teenagers and then into adulthood, they were

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still pretty close, did a lot together, but then the differences really started to become parent.

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And Tom, and I've never met Tom, but clearly was exhibiting traits that seemed pretty consistent with a true narcissistic personality disorder.

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He became incredibly self-centered, and he viewed himself as deserving of very special treatment over and over again.

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And so he would manipulate situations to make sure that he was the center of attention.

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Jerry, and I did not catch him at the time, it was later as we were processing this,

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absolutely showed signs of extreme emotional immaturity, especially when he was interacting with Tom.

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It was like he had held a spell over him.

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So he would go along with whatever Tom wanted and he would rarely, I mean, if ever stand up for himself or assert his own needs.

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So there's two particular examples where I want to start talking about what the emotional immature and the narcissist look like in the real world.

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So this was a birthday party. Let's say it was Tom's 30th birthday party.

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Tom, of course, was wanting all the attention on him. He literally demanded gifts.

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And Jerry had actually taken a picture back in the day of the invitation to Tom's 30th birthday party, which I wish I had access to it, but it was, hey, come celebrate me and you better show up.

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You better bring things. And yeah, you are going to really get to spend some time with me and see how successful I've been at this point in my 30th year.

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He would get pretty visibly upset if somebody else even momentarily became the focus of conversations at this party.

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So how did our guy Jerry react?

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He not only catered to Tom's every whim, but he also let Tom belittle him in front of others just to keep the peace.

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They had two different jobs, and Tom just loved to make fun of Jerry's job.

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Jerry laughed it off, but deep inside, he felt very small. He felt very inconsequential.

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Now let's fast forward a little bit to what we'll call the career milestone.

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So a few years later, Jerry is getting a promotion at work. He loves his job. He loves what he does. He doesn't make a lot of money.

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But it's a big promotion.

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So instead of being happy for his friend, Tom then made sure to show up for this promotion.

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Event and made it all about himself that he likes that he got took center stage and made sure and said i really thought i mean this is cute this is adorable what jerry's doing i really thought he would do a lot more with his life but you know what good for him that he's able to settle with where he's at it was and that was part of this long monologue about then and he was able to work into how much more important tom's job was how much more demanding it was,

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and that how if this is what Jerry needed to help him feel better, then Tom

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was so grateful to be a part of that moment because they'd grown up for so long and he had seen Tom just continue to not follow his dreams. So what a treat

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if you can even imagine that. What does Jerry do in that moment? He does not

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stand up for his own achievement, then he downplays it. Gets up to the mic and says,

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yeah, you know, you're right. Boy, Tom's really been a big part of my life and I'm just grateful that he's here. So he made it about Tom, even at Jerry's

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promotion. So in these situations, you can see how Tom's narcissistic tendencies and

00:17:46.156 --> 00:17:49.236
Jerry's emotional immaturity play off of each other. And how often are we seeing

00:17:49.236 --> 00:17:53.236
that in relationships? Is it in your relationship, your romantic relationship,

00:17:53.236 --> 00:18:00.756
your friend relationship? But Tom continues to seek admiration, excessive admiration, no empathy, while Jerry then enables the behavior because he's

00:18:00.756 --> 00:18:07.036
emotionally immature. So he fails to stand up for himself or take responsibility for his emotional well-being. I think that's one of the

00:18:07.036 --> 00:18:11.676
keys, often sacrificing his own needs for the sake of maintaining the peace.

00:18:12.236 --> 00:18:15.639
Maintaining a relationship that is not healthy, it is one-sided.

00:18:16.170 --> 00:18:19.887
So what's fascinating here is that Tom and Jerry could both benefit from introspection,

00:18:20.248 --> 00:18:23.831
but it would mean something completely different. But to the paths that they would need to take,

00:18:24.317 --> 00:18:30.020
to become more healthy would be so different. For Tom, it would be a deep, deep level of self-awareness

00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:34.180
and professional help because he is displaying traits of a personality disorder. I don't think

00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:39.060
he would ever grace the doors of a therapist's office. Jerry, on the other hand, came in, started

00:18:39.060 --> 00:18:42.020
to find his way through emotional immaturity, learning to stand up for himself, setting

00:18:42.020 --> 00:18:46.966
boundaries, taking responsibility for his actions and emotions. And here is one of the key things

00:18:47.209 --> 00:18:51.287
that I and here's we're going to start to paint more of the picture as we lead toward acceptance

00:18:51.494 --> 00:18:55.870
and forgiveness. That even as I just said the concept of standing up for himself, that he

00:18:56.020 --> 00:19:00.980
needed to learn to stand up for himself, I think too often that is misunderstood. People often think

00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:07.380
that standing up for themselves means becoming aggressive, confrontational, even mirroring the

00:19:07.380 --> 00:19:10.980
toxic behavior they're trying to counter because that's the way that they've seen this person

00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:17.700
gain control. Or even in Jerry's situation, his own parents would be so calm and kind until they

00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:25.380
would snap. So I want to introduce today to you a middle ground and I want to call it calm,

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:29.220
confident energy. I've mentioned it on previous podcasts. It's something I share with my clients

00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:34.309
often. We have this pendulum that we swing from just incredibly emotionally nice and passive

00:19:34.498 --> 00:19:37.860
to then if you're watching on the YouTube channel, I've just got my hand up and then you go all the

00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:41.601
the way over to the other side and now you're angry and you're somebody that you never wanted.

00:19:42.100 --> 00:19:46.900
To be. And that is reactive. And then you beat yourself up because you were the nice

00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:51.500
person and you beat yourself up because you think, well, I did yell. Jerry would think

00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:55.160
I would yell at Tom. I ended up getting so mad at Tom. I wasn't supporting him. There's

00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.588
a term, it's reactive abuse, which that's, it is what happens.

00:19:59.804 --> 00:20:05.654
I want to start talking about calm, confident energy. It's a space where you can assert yourself without being combative or defensive.

00:20:05.817 --> 00:20:09.654
It's about standing your ground, but also respecting the other person's perspective.

00:20:10.084 --> 00:20:14.621
And by respecting, it doesn't even mean that you are acquiescing or agreeing, but I respect that that is their opinion.

00:20:15.405 --> 00:20:21.654
And we'll talk here in a little bit, I've been talking a lot about differentiation lately, or at one point we introduced the concept of holding the assertive frame.

00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:28.575
I'm not going to be a victim. I know that that other person is either testing the relationship for safety, or they feel emotionally insecure.

00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:34.974
And so I'll put that connection ahead of fear or ego. And now is not the time to explain my love or defend myself

00:20:34.974 --> 00:20:38.214
or break the other person down, but I would really recommend going and finding that episode

00:20:38.214 --> 00:20:39.792
where I talk about holding the assertive frame.

00:20:40.654 --> 00:20:46.854
So let's talk more about what is calm, confident energy. It is about being assertive without being confrontational.

00:20:46.854 --> 00:20:51.934
It's about communicating your needs and wants clearly if that is the right thing to do, if that feels safe.

00:20:51.934 --> 00:20:56.626
And if you have to even communicate these and know these internally, then it's a process.

00:20:57.214 --> 00:21:00.834
Because again, if you are expressing yourself and making your needs and wants known

00:21:00.834 --> 00:21:06.074
to an emotionally mature narcissistic individual, it still can be an empowering thing,

00:21:06.074 --> 00:21:10.310
but just know that you are also including a set of your buttons to go along with that.

00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:16.074
But I really want this to either be an internal process or it's something that people do start to want to share.

00:21:16.074 --> 00:21:20.365
Or you can share your needs and wants very clearly with people that are safe.

00:21:20.934 --> 00:21:24.674
And you can do that while also listening to and respecting the needs and wants of others.

00:21:24.674 --> 00:21:28.809
And the balance of this calm, confident energy, It will, in healthy relationships,

00:21:28.954 --> 00:21:32.034
it enables honest and respectful conversations and it makes you less susceptible

00:21:32.034 --> 00:21:33.850
to manipulation or emotional coercion.

00:21:34.034 --> 00:21:34.679
That's the key.

00:21:35.264 --> 00:21:45.114
So I know it could sound from some of the things I've shared in the past like I'm going back on the you're not going to give them the aha moment or the epiphany and that is absolutely not what I'm talking about in this scenario.

00:21:45.661 --> 00:21:55.114
But in this one, if you are finding yourself playing small or less than and this is part of that waking up to the narcissism or the emotional immaturity in your relationship or even in yourself.

00:21:55.789 --> 00:22:00.911
And this goes right off of the, from episode one, we've said that if you're listening,

00:22:01.154 --> 00:22:03.999
you're trying to figure a lot of things out, and which I'm so grateful for,

00:22:04.394 --> 00:22:07.942
because most likely, if you've heard anything about narcissism, it says just run.

00:22:08.394 --> 00:22:12.614
Don't even finish this podcast, but I know that you are going on a path

00:22:12.614 --> 00:22:14.685
of trying to figure out, can I fix this?

00:22:14.794 --> 00:22:19.854
Is this narcissism? Is it extreme emotional immaturity? Is it something that I just didn't know what I didn't know,

00:22:19.854 --> 00:22:23.219
and most people go back into their relationships and say, I can fix this,

00:22:23.814 --> 00:22:28.094
but in the process of your becoming, then you're going to learn new tools.

00:22:28.094 --> 00:22:32.134
And part of this is gonna be as you try to implement those tools in your relationship

00:22:32.134 --> 00:22:36.326
with the emotionally immature or narcissistic person, and they don't work,

00:22:36.494 --> 00:22:41.034
but then you are doing those in healthier relationships, that gives you a lot of data to work with.

00:22:41.772 --> 00:22:46.850
That is part of the answer right there. So again, what does it look like in practice? Let's look at Jerry.

00:22:47.094 --> 00:22:52.053
Instead of him being a doormat or swinging to the other extreme and lashing out at Tom,

00:22:52.574 --> 00:22:54.925
If Jerry is adopting the calm, confident energy

00:22:55.174 --> 00:22:58.694
when responding to situations, then at that birthday party, when Tom belittles him,

00:22:58.694 --> 00:23:02.352
Jerry would calmly but confidently say, and I think this is part of the key too,

00:23:02.474 --> 00:23:06.454
if it's in a one-on-one situation, you may still wanna do this because you're trying to test the waters

00:23:06.727 --> 00:23:08.230
and really try to see that,

00:23:08.635 --> 00:23:12.056
hey, it is absolutely okay for me to express myself, because it is.

00:23:12.334 --> 00:23:18.439
You are allowed to have your own thoughts and opinions, and being belittled is not part of any healthy relationship.

00:23:18.734 --> 00:23:23.834
An adult relationship, love or control, not both, just one, and that does not fall under the category

00:23:23.834 --> 00:23:25.307
or the column of love.

00:23:25.434 --> 00:23:28.899
So in that scenario, Jerry's saying, Tom, it's your birthday, we are here to celebrate you.

00:23:29.314 --> 00:23:33.355
And I'm super proud of you, happy birthday, but that doesn't give you the right to put me down.

00:23:33.834 --> 00:23:38.136
Now he's not attacking Tom, nor is he cowering, but he's simply asserting his self-worth.

00:23:38.883 --> 00:23:43.373
Or if we go back to Jerry's promotion, when Tom dismisses his achievement, Jerry could respond with,

00:23:43.373 --> 00:23:47.804
Hey everybody, thank you, Tom. What a joy. And I love his friendship. I value his opinion.

00:23:48.065 --> 00:23:51.933
But I will tell you guys, because you know this is a promotion, people in the company,

00:23:51.933 --> 00:23:56.813
friends that are close to me, healthier friends, this is significant. And I'm so grateful to be

00:23:56.813 --> 00:24:01.213
here for all the people that have supported. So I just, I'm standing up for myself. He's now not

00:24:01.213 --> 00:24:06.813
saying that part, but he's just doing and being, standing up for himself. So again, standing is

00:24:06.813 --> 00:24:09.040
is ground somewhat without being confrontational

00:24:09.253 --> 00:24:10.853
or without being defensive.

00:24:10.853 --> 00:24:16.827
So the benefits of this calm, confident energy, emotional balance, by not getting overly emotional,

00:24:16.933 --> 00:24:20.131
you're more likely to think clearly and articulate your thoughts effectively.

00:24:20.333 --> 00:24:22.472
We'll talk about that in a little bit because we're gonna talk about the brain.

00:24:23.013 --> 00:24:27.533
Respect, operating from this place of calm, confident energy generally leads others

00:24:27.533 --> 00:24:31.465
to respect you more, even if they don't necessarily agree with your point of view.

00:24:32.053 --> 00:24:36.913
And this is a significant part of your own waking up to your own emotional immaturity

00:24:36.913 --> 00:24:40.473
or becoming more emotionally mature is that the more that you calmly,

00:24:40.473 --> 00:24:45.176
confidently express yourself and are consistent and steady and come from this place of a healthy ego.

00:24:45.953 --> 00:24:49.641
You start to find the people that do feel safe, the people that do wanna connect.

00:24:49.793 --> 00:24:53.733
It's a lot easier to then see the people that are saying, well, I don't like what you said,

00:24:53.733 --> 00:24:57.113
or I think you're wrong, and that is okay, I appreciate that.

00:24:57.553 --> 00:25:01.659
I'll take a look at that information, but I'm the one that really knows me best,

00:25:01.913 --> 00:25:05.080
which is such a key point in becoming more emotionally mature.

00:25:05.593 --> 00:25:10.233
Now, inner peace, there is a, I promise you, there is a certain tranquility in knowing

00:25:10.233 --> 00:25:14.513
that you've expressed yourself honestly and respectfully, regardless of how the other party reacts.

00:25:14.513 --> 00:25:18.313
That can be difficult and there are people that have, they do this until they feel like

00:25:18.313 --> 00:25:20.273
they can't do it anymore, it's not safe.

00:25:20.273 --> 00:25:23.573
So a lot of the people that I work with that are starting to express themselves,

00:25:23.573 --> 00:25:27.423
waking up to their own emotional immaturity and then becoming more emotionally mature.

00:25:27.953 --> 00:25:32.413
I sometimes look at this as part of the rule out of that they are going to express themselves

00:25:32.413 --> 00:25:40.008
And then if that is not reciprocated or appreciated or met with empathy or appreciation,

00:25:40.133 --> 00:25:43.893
then at least they now have that data that they know how to do that.

00:25:43.893 --> 00:25:46.247
They are of worth, it's okay to express myself.

00:25:46.413 --> 00:25:49.641
But then if that does not go well, then that's not a me issue,

00:25:50.013 --> 00:25:53.710
because that's okay for me to do. So I hope you can see there's a nuanced way

00:25:53.853 --> 00:25:57.635
to stand up for yourself that does not involve becoming what you're trying to avoid.

00:25:57.733 --> 00:26:03.833
By embodying this calm, confident energy, you can start to navigate even the trickiest emotional landscapes

00:26:03.833 --> 00:26:06.655
with, I will say, grace and integrity.

00:26:07.013 --> 00:26:11.210
And those feel amazing. A couple of weeks ago on waking up to narcissism,

00:26:11.553 --> 00:26:17.602
and then the week before that on the virtual couch, I did a very deep dive into the concept of differentiation.

00:26:18.073 --> 00:26:22.913
And because it is such a significant part of your awakening process of starting to learn

00:26:22.913 --> 00:26:27.000
that every interaction truly can be an opportunity for me to self-confront and grow.

00:26:27.673 --> 00:26:30.473
Because why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? Am I feeling the way I'm feeling

00:26:30.473 --> 00:26:33.887
because, oh, that person is providing me with some data and I need to self-reflect.

00:26:34.778 --> 00:26:45.320
Yes, but that data could also be that's that is not something that is healthy if that person is saying, well, I don't like what you're doing or I think that you need to do something different, then I'm feeling that way because of that other person.

00:26:45.716 --> 00:26:55.628
And it's because they are trying to manipulate me or they have an expectation of me. That is a them issue. And I don't mean that sounding like a being I'm being mean, but it is.

00:26:56.411 --> 00:27:10.328
Murray Bowen, father of differentiation, his concept of differentiation of self, it just aligns well with this concept of calm, confident energy, because differentiation of oneself is the ability to separate one's intellectual and emotional functioning.

00:27:11.030 --> 00:27:17.548
So a well-differentiated person can hold onto their beliefs without letting their emotional reactivity dictate their actions.

00:27:18.178 --> 00:27:38.307
I can hold on to my belief that I crave connection or my belief that I am okay, that I am enough, that I'm allowed to have an opinion, even though I'm going to feel a desire to react emotionally to the person that is trying to take away my opinion or my right to be myself.

00:27:39.072 --> 00:27:48.012
You can maintain your integrity in the face of pressure to conform and you can manage your anxiety in challenging situations by becoming more differentiated.

00:27:48.165 --> 00:27:51.428
Now, how differentiation relates to this calm, confident energy?

00:27:51.621 --> 00:27:58.886
Calm, confident energy embodies this essence of differentiation because it's all about being emotionally balanced while standing firm in your beliefs and your values.

00:27:59.327 --> 00:28:08.906
So just like a well-differentiated individual, somebody with calm, confident energy can express themselves honestly and without becoming reactive or defensive or confrontational.

00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:15.027
And so you can turn opportunity into growth. Now, how? Here we're back to our old friend discomfort.

00:28:15.541 --> 00:28:22.128
Recognizing discomfort. Differentiation allows you to identify emotional discomfort and it basically becomes a signpost, a beacon for growth.

00:28:22.128 --> 00:28:28.099
Growth. So when you are differentiated, you're more likely to view challenges not as threats, but as opportunities

00:28:28.252 --> 00:28:34.888
for self exploration and development. And it is not as easy as I'm making it sound. When someone is in a an abusive

00:28:34.888 --> 00:28:41.928
or narcissistic relationship, I think all I'm trying to make the point of is that you can still notice, recognize, have this as

00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:48.528
part of what it feels like to be you internally, that I am of worth, I deserve a healthy connection, it's okay for me to

00:28:48.528 --> 00:28:56.168
have opinions, and I'm feeling unsafe because of the way that this person is interacting with me, then that is part of the data that I need to

00:28:56.168 --> 00:29:00.008
know, is this okay for me to try to stay in this relationship or navigate this

00:29:00.008 --> 00:29:05.648
relationship? Because it is not okay to just continually be on edge or have

00:29:05.648 --> 00:29:14.748
your central nervous system fried because you are worried about if you can express yourself or how can I manage this other person's emotions around me?

00:29:14.433 --> 00:29:25.083
So, managing your own emotional reactivity, a well-differentiated person or somebody who operates from, again, this calm, confident, energetic state, they can avoid reacting impulsively to these emotional triggers.

00:29:25.209 --> 00:29:31.835
They can start to process their emotions more rationally, and that helps them navigate complicated interactions.

00:29:32.132 --> 00:29:39.136
So, this differentiation, that calm, confident energy, it helps you break back into your own independent thinking.

00:29:39.483 --> 00:29:49.119
Differentiation, calm, confident energy, they encourage independent thinking because you can disagree respectfully, even if the other person isn't open to your perspective. That's absolutely fine.

00:29:49.641 --> 00:29:53.368
This empowers you to maintain your own integrity in any interaction.

00:29:54.160 --> 00:30:01.483
And this becomes a pretty big key in interacting with difficult people because even when you're dealing with somebody not open to your viewpoint or any other viewpoint,

00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:05.242
Because again, the emotionally immature, the incredibly emotionally immature,

00:30:05.803 --> 00:30:10.003
they think that if you have your own opinion, then that means you are telling them

00:30:10.003 --> 00:30:12.030
that their opinion is wrong, which is not the case.

00:30:12.703 --> 00:30:15.363
It's okay to have two different opinions. As a matter of fact,

00:30:16.387 --> 00:30:19.043
that's one of the most beautiful things in life is that we're two different individuals.

00:30:19.203 --> 00:30:21.734
When we start to feel an emotional connection and safe with each other,

00:30:22.003 --> 00:30:25.683
then let's explore each other's opinion. Because of course, we have slightly nuanced

00:30:25.683 --> 00:30:28.900
or different opinions because we grew up in completely different situations.

00:30:29.003 --> 00:30:32.323
So while we may initially get together with this fear of abandonment.

00:30:32.323 --> 00:30:35.193
So we're thinking, yeah, I agree with pretty much everything they say.

00:30:35.283 --> 00:30:37.011
I'm not gonna, I don't wanna make somebody upset.

00:30:37.723 --> 00:30:43.943
But then as you start to grow together, then it only makes sense that you start to explore your own opinions

00:30:43.943 --> 00:30:47.103
and you have curiosity and that's a way to connect with your partner.

00:30:47.763 --> 00:30:52.143
So when you have these alternative viewpoints and if you maintain your calm, confident energy,

00:30:52.143 --> 00:30:54.079
then it allows you to learn from the experience.

00:30:54.443 --> 00:30:56.240
So both people are doing this, it's phenomenal.

00:30:56.723 --> 00:31:00.283
It becomes this exercise in managing each of your own emotional responses

00:31:00.283 --> 00:31:02.335
and it helps you refine your communication skills.

00:31:03.091 --> 00:31:09.221
And that leads to this, I want to call it like this transformative potential to really change who you are in a good way.

00:31:09.545 --> 00:31:14.145
Because over time, consistently practicing differentiation and maintaining this calm, confident energy,

00:31:14.434 --> 00:31:18.404
it can fundamentally transform the way that you approach life's challenges.

00:31:19.061 --> 00:31:28.421
And I promise you this, because when you start to get met by things that in the past you would have lost your mind or flipped your lid or any of those phrases,

00:31:28.421 --> 00:31:46.374
you're noticing that this is a situation where it's not ideal, but I'm going to make it through it. And the calmer and more steady I am, the better decisions I'm going to be able to make in that moment. So it goes right back to every interaction becomes an opportunity to grow intellectually and spiritually.

00:31:46.869 --> 00:31:58.421
So, by incorporating both the differentiation and calm, confident energy, you have now been equipped with the emotional intellectual tools to turn every situation, no matter how uncomfortable, into an opportunity for growth.

00:31:58.421 --> 00:32:05.350
And again, sometimes it's going to be all on the inside, your inside voice, not like you're saying when you're inside the house, but in your head.

00:32:06.017 --> 00:32:10.167
And this approach starts to make you more resilient. It makes you more adaptable.

00:32:10.421 --> 00:32:14.065
Starting to lean into what we call an act, acceptance and commitment therapy, good old

00:32:14.341 --> 00:32:18.621
psychological flexibility, because it's the first time you're going through life in this

00:32:18.621 --> 00:32:20.061
moment with this set of variables.

00:32:20.061 --> 00:32:27.461
So of course, it is okay to have completely different decisions or to find out new things about yourself.

00:32:27.461 --> 00:32:31.475
On the Mind the Mirror Me, the podcast with my daughter McKinley a few weeks ago, she,

00:32:31.941 --> 00:32:34.851
was talking about not necessarily being in the place that she thought she would be at

00:32:35.229 --> 00:32:36.061
this point in her life.

00:32:36.061 --> 00:32:40.021
And I was trying to be hilarious, but I said, oh, wow, that seems so strange that you now

00:32:40.021 --> 00:32:43.661
in your 20s that the way that you thought life would turn out when you

00:32:43.661 --> 00:32:48.181
were 12 hasn't really fallen straight to right to script because at 12 I think

00:32:48.181 --> 00:32:51.421
pretty much right now I was gonna be an astronaut a pirate and a professional

00:32:51.421 --> 00:32:55.101
baseball player and so far I'm over three if I look at those but I'm pretty

00:32:55.101 --> 00:32:56.541
happy with my life. It's pretty fun.

00:32:57.510 --> 00:33:03.600
Okay, let's talk about how you get to that calm, confident, energetic state and differentiation.

00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:08.720
So, stay with me here because we are going to talk about my old friends mindfulness and

00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.435
meditation. I feel like I'm doing an ad for them, but just let me tell you the brain stuff. This is

00:33:12.800 --> 00:33:18.320
really fascinating. They're game changers when it comes to achieving what I call the calm,

00:33:18.320 --> 00:33:22.560
confident energy or a well-differentiated state. So, let's break this down in a, we'll say, in a

00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:27.280
very easy-to-understand way. Let's talk about the brain and your central nervous system.

00:33:27.955 --> 00:33:31.680
So first, it's really important to understand that your central nervous system is like a

00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:36.800
control center for your body. It's what gets you all fired up when you're angry, or what causes

00:33:36.800 --> 00:33:41.801
you to chill, bruh, as the kids say these days. When you're relaxed, then I will leave that in.

00:33:41.990 --> 00:33:46.880
Pardon me, I want to just take that right out. But when you're stressed, or anxious, or agitated,

00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:51.040
it's usually because your central nervous system is on overdrive. Your brain's doing the whole,

00:33:51.040 --> 00:33:56.177
well, hey, we're in danger and get ready to fight or run, even if we're just having a disagreement with a friend,

00:33:56.840 --> 00:34:01.800
and not actually running away from a real lion or even Arthur the Aardvark,

00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:04.252
which actually is not very intimidating.

00:34:04.660 --> 00:34:08.303
Here comes mindfulness and meditation to the rescue. So how do these come in?

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.922
These practices are a workout for your central nervous system.

00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:16.045
Just like I just ordered a little cold tub. They're not very expensive.

00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:21.330
Matter of fact, I will put a link to it. I impulsively ordered one thanks to my son, Jake, who asked for one.

00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:26.000
But even that, if you really look at the science around the cold pools, the cold plunges,

00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:30.840
sitting in the ice, that it is stimulating your central nervous system to go into that

00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.671
fight or flight response, and yet you are okay. You can clearly see there's no lying.

00:34:35.160 --> 00:34:38.155
And so you start to just work on your breathing, and you're starting to tell your brain,

00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:43.313
see, told ya, you can do this, you can calm yourself down and you're gonna be okay.

00:34:44.168 --> 00:34:48.579
So, just like lifting weights makes your muscles stronger than mindfulness and meditation makes

00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:55.059
your ability to control your emotional reactions better. And let me kind of tell you by experience.

00:34:55.059 --> 00:34:56.379
First the science part, simplified.

00:34:56.925 --> 00:35:02.499
So here's the cool science-y stuff. So consistent mindfulness and meditation practices have been shown to actually change the structure

00:35:02.499 --> 00:35:03.262
of your brain.

00:35:03.847 --> 00:35:07.099
Because they strengthen the areas of the brain responsible for attention and emotional control.

00:35:07.099 --> 00:35:10.284
And this means that you get better at focusing and not letting your emotions run wild.

00:35:11.139 --> 00:35:16.172
I've been on a real big roll for a little while. I've always enjoyed a meditation practice,

00:35:17.018 --> 00:35:18.599
but I don't know if I've found a new meditation.

00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:25.147
I'm just doing the meditation through the Peloton app, and I am tracking my heart rate through my sleep now,

00:35:25.539 --> 00:35:31.339
and the workouts that I continue to do, and the meditation, and I've started to see a fairly significant drop

00:35:31.339 --> 00:35:32.817
in just my average resting heart rate,

00:35:33.299 --> 00:35:36.454
and the ability to lower my heart rate while even I meditate,

00:35:36.819 --> 00:35:40.579
which I know means that I'm starting to calm my central nervous system,

00:35:40.703 --> 00:35:43.898
and it's starting to say, okay, we kind of like this, we can stay here.

00:35:44.659 --> 00:35:48.379
So, and that mindfulness and meditation helps you stay in the moment.

00:35:48.379 --> 00:35:50.884
And let me just make sure that I cover this part.

00:35:51.099 --> 00:35:53.747
Again, mindfulness, meditation, it's not about stopping thought,

00:35:53.939 --> 00:35:56.475
it's not about clearing one's mind completely.

00:35:56.779 --> 00:35:59.760
It's about changing the relationship you have with your thoughts.

00:36:00.339 --> 00:36:03.739
So when you practice mindfulness, you are essentially treating yourself

00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:05.054
or training yourself to stay present.

00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:10.779
So the next time that somebody like Tom comes along for Jerry with his narcissistic behaviors

00:36:10.779 --> 00:36:14.857
or emotional immaturity, you won't immediately react as if you've got to defend your life.

00:36:15.139 --> 00:36:19.196
Instead, you can take a breath and square up your shoulders and consider your emotions

00:36:19.385 --> 00:36:21.258
and choose how you respond thoughtfully.

00:36:21.499 --> 00:36:26.020
Your buttons become harder to push because you've gained a level of emotional clarity.

00:36:26.859 --> 00:36:30.719
So by being more mindful, you naturally become better at differentiation

00:36:31.099 --> 00:36:32.999
because you can separate your emotional reactions

00:36:32.999 --> 00:36:34.743
from your logical thoughts much more easily.

00:36:35.379 --> 00:36:40.859
And this leads to that awesome, calm, confident, energy where you can now, if I say stand up for yourself,

00:36:40.859 --> 00:36:45.996
again, it doesn't mean I'm being aggressive, but I can stand up for myself without losing my cool.

00:36:46.779 --> 00:36:51.259
So in a nutshell, just remember, mindfulness, meditation, they are like emotional strength training

00:36:51.259 --> 00:36:55.539
and they help you keep a clear head so you're better equipped to handle whatever life

00:36:55.539 --> 00:36:58.379
or emotionally challenging people throw your way.

00:36:58.379 --> 00:37:05.324
So let's get into the meat of today's podcast, acceptance and forgiveness.

00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:11.619
I wanna talk about acceptance and willingness in the context of my favorite therapeutic modality,

00:37:11.619 --> 00:37:14.641
acceptance and commitment therapy, so I will be referring to ACT a lot.

00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:21.499
So in ACT, when we talk about acceptance, we're not just talking about putting up with things.

00:37:21.499 --> 00:37:25.750
Acceptance doesn't mean apathy or grudgingly tolerating things.

00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:31.683
But instead, acceptance means fully embracing your experiences in the present moment

00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:33.429
without any resistance.

00:37:34.131 --> 00:37:42.188
And the term willing is often used interchangeably with acceptance to emphasize the act of freely choosing to engage with our experiences.

00:37:42.891 --> 00:37:49.264
But being willing or accepting again is not about trying to control how we feel or what we think.

00:37:49.624 --> 00:37:56.646
Instead, it's about adopting a compassionate stance toward yourself about your past, about the programming that makes us who we are.

00:37:56.970 --> 00:38:00.580
So, imagine it like you're holding a delicate object in your hands.

00:38:00.751 --> 00:38:05.243
Acceptance means observing it closely without judgment, just being aware of it as it is.

00:38:05.432 --> 00:38:11.381
Okay, I have to be completely transparent because I've been doing some work on a project where I am,

00:38:12.021 --> 00:38:17.324
supposed to be doing some narcissistic translation work and it is meant to be funny.

00:38:17.504 --> 00:38:22.021
So, my mind just went to, okay, let me break it down in more simpler terms, i.e.,

00:38:22.021 --> 00:38:29.941
the narcissistic translation for this would be, let me get out the crayons and see if I can stick figure this bad boy for you, but I'm really not saying that.

00:38:30.873 --> 00:38:36.261
So imagine if you're feeling anxious and you just think, man, I hate this. I do not want to feel

00:38:36.261 --> 00:38:41.861
anxious. What acts says is that fighting that anxiety actually makes you more anxious. It's

00:38:41.861 --> 00:38:47.061
like quicksand. The more you struggle, the deeper you sink. So acceptance here then means instead

00:38:47.061 --> 00:38:52.101
of fighting the feeling, you just kind of give it a nod and say, okay, anxiety, I see you.

00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:57.789
What's up? And I really do. I often say, oh, I see your brain. I see what you're doing. So,

00:38:57.981 --> 00:39:02.541
you let it be there. You let the anxiety be there without pushing it away. You're not resigning

00:39:02.541 --> 00:39:06.301
yourself to feeling anxious forever. You're just allowing yourself to feel what you're feeling

00:39:06.301 --> 00:39:09.981
right now. And that's what willingness or acceptance is an act. And think of it like

00:39:09.981 --> 00:39:14.861
choosing to feel your feelings and think your thoughts. Just letting them be without trying

00:39:14.861 --> 00:39:18.901
to change them or judge them. You look at them like you'd look at an interesting object that

00:39:18.901 --> 00:39:24.421
you're holding, you're curious, but you're not freaking out. That this is that

00:39:24.421 --> 00:39:27.128
concept again of if I am unwilling to have it, I will.

00:39:27.861 --> 00:39:29.861
Accepting

00:39:29.450 --> 00:39:33.113
If I'm unwilling to be anxious, then I will have more anxiety around trying to avoid

00:39:33.113 --> 00:39:35.266
all the things that might give me anxiety.

00:39:35.813 --> 00:39:41.193
And I remember last Christmas working with, did anybody else go to Last Christmas I Gave You My Heart?

00:39:41.193 --> 00:39:46.753
I mean, there's the way My ADHD works. It's a song, and I'm thinking of the George Michael version, or Wham.

00:39:47.093 --> 00:39:52.793
But last Christmas, I was working with a client who was gonna go visit their future

00:39:52.793 --> 00:39:58.553
potential new in-laws for Christmas, but they were just so anxious and nervous

00:39:58.553 --> 00:39:59.752
about saying the wrong thing.

00:40:00.353 --> 00:40:06.073
And so if they are unwilling to say the wrong thing, then they're gonna miss out on this entire opportunity.

00:40:06.073 --> 00:40:09.267
So we talked about having an acceptance that yeah, I'll probably say the wrong thing,

00:40:09.773 --> 00:40:15.560
but I'll also get to see the person's hometown. I'll meet his family and his parents and his siblings.

00:40:15.753 --> 00:40:19.440
But if I'm worried about I might say the wrong thing, I'll miss out on all those.

00:40:20.061 --> 00:40:24.293
But yeah, you might end up saying the wrong thing. Now, quite frankly, I don't think there is a wrong thing.

00:40:24.562 --> 00:40:26.750
They're just things, and that's what this person would have said.

00:40:27.013 --> 00:40:30.522
But I just thought that was a really interesting way to apply this.

00:40:30.973 --> 00:40:35.773
And so then when she got back, she said, oh yeah, I said a couple things that I probably would deem as wrong,

00:40:35.773 --> 00:40:37.697
but I had such a good time, I don't think it really matters.

00:40:37.853 --> 00:40:38.912
So there was an acceptance there.

00:40:39.693 --> 00:40:43.899
So founder of ACT, Dr. Stephen Hayes. So when Dr. Hayes talks about being willing or accepting,

00:40:44.413 --> 00:40:50.333
it's like he's saying, hey, can I let myself just be, flaws and all, without trying to put on a brave face

00:40:50.333 --> 00:40:51.470
or trying to change anything?

00:40:51.853 --> 00:40:55.533
Because doing this helps you understand yourself better, and it's giving yourself a break

00:40:55.533 --> 00:40:57.646
from constantly trying to control everything.

00:40:58.413 --> 00:41:02.933
That's part of the thing that it can be so difficult. We just, we want certainty so bad

00:41:02.933 --> 00:41:04.253
and we don't like discomfort.

00:41:04.451 --> 00:41:09.133
And so then in order for us to think that we're gonna be able to do life better,

00:41:09.133 --> 00:41:10.493
we feel like we gotta control everything.

00:41:10.493 --> 00:41:14.653
And it turns out that's the exact opposite of what really can help.

00:41:14.653 --> 00:41:19.133
So now let me start talking about forgiveness versus acceptance, especially for people

00:41:19.133 --> 00:41:23.572
who find themselves waking up to harmful or emotionally immature relationships.

00:41:24.213 --> 00:41:28.595
So you've got people, and this is, let's talk about the pathologically kind.

00:41:29.253 --> 00:41:33.573
You have people who are nice, super nice, almost too nice, who've suddenly realized that they are stuck

00:41:33.573 --> 00:41:34.960
in some pretty unhealthy relationships.

00:41:35.693 --> 00:41:38.813
Maybe it's a partner who's narcissistic, or a boss who's just not very cool,

00:41:38.813 --> 00:41:45.511
or even a religious group that is unwilling to change, or one that is starting to try to use more shame as a motivator.

00:41:46.393 --> 00:41:53.513
So a lot of times, the first thing that that person feels I got to forgive them in order to move on.

00:41:52.641 --> 00:41:58.231
But I would say, hang on, what if we flip the script? What if instead of focusing on forgiving the other person,

00:41:58.530 --> 00:42:00.391
we focus on accepting what's happened?

00:42:01.010 --> 00:42:05.559
Because remember earlier when I'm talking about acceptance, it's not about giving the harmful person a free pass.

00:42:05.770 --> 00:42:08.691
It's about acknowledging your feelings and experiences without judgment.

00:42:09.370 --> 00:42:13.301
And here's why this matters. I really believe that the idea that you have to forgive and forget,

00:42:13.970 --> 00:42:17.163
it can in essence go against or mess with your own instincts.

00:42:17.450 --> 00:42:22.390
That gut feeling that tells you something's off. Well, if you end up ignoring that,

00:42:22.390 --> 00:42:25.264
because you think that I just have to forgive, no matter what.

00:42:25.370 --> 00:42:28.127
You're basically telling your own emotions, hey, you really don't matter.

00:42:28.550 --> 00:42:30.495
And at this point, that is not okay.

00:42:31.270 --> 00:42:34.350
Now, why do so many good people end up in these situations in the first place?

00:42:34.350 --> 00:42:36.670
A lot of us grow up in homes where emotions aren't really talked about.

00:42:37.150 --> 00:42:42.470
Maybe your parents, and even again, if they meant well, always told you to stop making a big deal out of things.

00:42:42.470 --> 00:42:46.330
Or maybe they said, well, well, what did you do to make the other person feel that way?

00:42:46.870 --> 00:42:50.710
So instead of acknowledging how you felt, they might've even been trying to make themselves feel better

00:42:50.710 --> 00:42:52.919
by getting you to suppress your emotions.

00:42:53.550 --> 00:42:56.791
So whether it was a parent telling you not to cry because it made them uncomfortable

00:42:56.910 --> 00:42:59.248
or saying that you should think of the other person's feelings first,

00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:03.770
what they're actually doing was teaching you to doubt your own emotions and that's the kind of stuff

00:43:03.770 --> 00:43:05.730
that sets you up for unhealthy relationships later on.

00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:12.518
So instead of thinking that I need to forgive in order to heal, consider focusing on acceptance,

00:43:12.710 --> 00:43:18.117
that I need to accept that that did happen and I'm gonna look at that just as it was, it happened.

00:43:18.830 --> 00:43:22.670
And acceptance, again, doesn't mean that that person gets away with it or whatever that even means,

00:43:22.670 --> 00:43:23.707
because this is about you.

00:43:24.330 --> 00:43:29.775
So when you say, I need to forgive, and I believe, I am not trying to go all or nothing, black or white here.

00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:34.670
That if that works for you, and you really, that forgiveness cleanses your soul,

00:43:34.670 --> 00:43:37.769
and then when you are around that person, you don't feel any of the bad feelings or thoughts,

00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:40.434
then that is a wonderful thing. What a gift.

00:43:41.070 --> 00:43:44.310
But for most, when they are being told they need to forgive,

00:43:44.511 --> 00:43:48.910
it's by someone else who is not them, who, even when they mean well, is saying,

00:43:48.910 --> 00:43:52.790
hey, this is what I think you need to do, even though I have no idea what your situation is.

00:43:52.790 --> 00:43:57.750
I don't know what it really was like to grow up like you, and I don't know what the interior landscape of your mind

00:43:57.750 --> 00:44:00.968
has been when you've been in with this individual that you've maybe been trying to connect with

00:44:01.373 --> 00:44:05.550
for two decades, and now I'm just saying, You just need to forgive them.

00:44:05.091 --> 00:44:10.843
So again, acceptance, accepting what happened, accepting your feelings about it, and use that as a stepping stone to move forward.

00:44:11.518 --> 00:44:19.170
Because understanding this concept of forgiveness requires considering both the societal and religious perspectives, because they often influence each other.

00:44:19.693 --> 00:44:30.090
Because the societal definition of forgiveness, and in a societal context, forgiveness often involves letting go of anger, letting go of resentment, or the desire for revenge against somebody who has wronged you.

00:44:30.576 --> 00:44:32.845
And it's frequently tied to phrases like forgive and.

00:44:33.521 --> 00:44:38.161
You probably just said it right then, forget, which suggests that it's not just pardoning the offense,

00:44:38.161 --> 00:44:39.881
but also wiping the slate completely clean.

00:44:39.881 --> 00:44:42.972
So now if you think about it again, you're not being very forgiving.

00:44:43.541 --> 00:44:49.301
So now all of a sudden I'm not even forgiving well, and I'm the one that I got emotionally abused.

00:44:49.421 --> 00:44:54.207
So in essence, societal forgiveness often advocates for a restoration of the relationship to its previous state,

00:44:54.361 --> 00:44:59.681
or at least releasing this emotional burden tied to what was happening,

00:44:59.681 --> 00:45:02.129
what the wrongdoing for the sake of one's own well-being.

00:45:03.061 --> 00:45:08.641
That is often something that will help another person feel good about your experience.

00:45:08.641 --> 00:45:10.546
A parent, you just gotta forgive them, buddy.

00:45:11.221 --> 00:45:16.146
And then I'm a good parent. Or a religious leader, bless their heart for real,

00:45:16.761 --> 00:45:18.468
but saying, hey, you gotta forgive them.

00:45:18.761 --> 00:45:20.368
If you want healing and growth, forgive them.

00:45:21.161 --> 00:45:26.241
So I've got almost 20 years now as a therapist working so much with people that are beating themselves up

00:45:26.241 --> 00:45:29.091
because they can't just forgive and forget. They can't just let it go.

00:45:29.301 --> 00:45:33.250
They try and they're beating themselves up. But in reality, acceptance of that that happened.

00:45:33.821 --> 00:45:35.555
And now, what an opportunity for growth.

00:45:36.161 --> 00:45:41.478
Whether I need to start putting more boundaries in there or I need to recognize that because of that situation

00:45:41.581 --> 00:45:46.303
and the acceptance that it happened, now I recognize that I do deserve to be loved or I am lovable.

00:45:47.461 --> 00:45:52.361
And if we jump over into the biblical definition of forgiveness, in a Christian biblical context,

00:45:52.361 --> 00:45:57.079
forgiveness takes on a more divine And now we enter in morality, like a moral dimension,

00:45:57.301 --> 00:45:59.582
because it's often linked to the teachings of Jesus,

00:45:59.981 --> 00:46:03.341
who I'm a big fan of, who advocated forgiving others

00:46:03.341 --> 00:46:05.442
as a reflection of God's forgiveness toward humanity.

00:46:05.821 --> 00:46:08.321
Then that's where scriptures like, "'Turn the other cheek' and parables like

00:46:08.321 --> 00:46:10.941
"'The Story of the Prodigal Son' encourage not just forgiveness,

00:46:10.941 --> 00:46:16.021
but also unconditional love and compassion." And I do feel like when you have the unconditional love

00:46:16.290 --> 00:46:17.532
of Jesus, the Christ figure,

00:46:18.101 --> 00:46:23.384
then that does, I love this concept of there's a framework or something to aspire to.

00:46:23.981 --> 00:46:28.381
Because if I can't have that complete forgiveness towards someone, but I can have that acceptance,

00:46:28.381 --> 00:46:32.221
now I can move towards someone that now I can maybe have more of a connected

00:46:32.431 --> 00:46:34.181
or close relationship with.

00:46:34.181 --> 00:46:38.741
But back to the, in the Christian context, forgiveness in this context is not just an act of personal release,

00:46:38.741 --> 00:46:45.034
but a spiritual imperative, and almost this reflection that we'll feel that is about divine grace.

00:46:45.421 --> 00:46:48.021
And I think that it's worth noting that there's a lot of people

00:46:47.708 --> 00:46:56.755
depending on the religious group or organization, that even different interpretations of that can vary, and I recognize that within different religious communities.

00:46:57.097 --> 00:47:03.056
But the general principle evolves around unconditional forgiveness as an act of love and mercy, even extending to one's enemies.

00:47:03.570 --> 00:47:15.435
So, these definitions, the societal forgiveness and the biblical forgiveness, often, I think they illustrate the difficulty with this multifaceted nature of forgiveness and how it can differ depending on cultural and personal and religious backgrounds.

00:47:15.966 --> 00:47:21.583
So let me dive a little bit deeper into the concept of acceptance in societal and now biblical notions of forgiveness.

00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.311
So let's talk about acceptance versus societal forgiveness.

00:47:24.761 --> 00:47:27.228
So if we go back to that in the societal understanding of forgiveness,

00:47:27.732 --> 00:47:31.972
there's often this idea of not just pardoning the offense, but also wiping that slate clean.

00:47:32.548 --> 00:47:38.750
And this implies that once you forgive, everything should go back to the way it was, or at least you should be free of the emotional weight of the offense.

00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:44.305
But what if that slate has some deep grooves or chunks or a complete corner missing from it?

00:47:44.647 --> 00:47:58.907
Or what if that offense was so significant that simply wiping it clean feels like an impossibility, or even a betrayal of your own feelings and experiences, that would lead you to go back to the what's wrong with me because I can't wipe this thing clean. I've tried with all the sandpaper in the world.

00:47:59.069 --> 00:48:10.492
So acceptance offers a different path. It doesn't ask you to wipe the slate clean or pretend that the offense never happened. It says, this is your slate, and it has all of its grooves and missing chunks, and that's okay.

00:48:10.997 --> 00:48:16.398
And there's an acceptance that this is what it is and that happened and acceptance is about then acknowledging,

00:48:16.965 --> 00:48:21.518
What you feel and not forcing yourself into a narrative of forgiveness that might not feel true to you

00:48:21.889 --> 00:48:28.245
It's not about anybody else's expectations It's about being true to what you feel because once you can accept that this is now my slate now,

00:48:28.798 --> 00:48:33.358
what can I do with it because and I can come to an acceptance that it is still beautiful and.

00:48:34.808 --> 00:48:39.218
Now you can start to recognize your own unique emotional landscape because everybody's is different,

00:48:39.831 --> 00:48:48.014
Nobody else knows, from the troubles I've seen, I feel like I want to break into that spiritual, but nobody else knows what it feels like to be you, and that's okay.

00:48:48.698 --> 00:48:51.984
So let's talk about acceptance in the context of biblical forgiveness.

00:48:52.218 --> 00:48:58.214
So biblical forgiveness comes with its own set of complexities, particularly when viewed as a moral or divine imperative,

00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:03.174
because the idea of turning the other cheek and extending forgiveness as an act of unconditional love or divine grace,

00:49:03.669 --> 00:49:09.025
can sometimes clash with your own emotional or mental reality, especially if the offense has deeply impacted your life.

00:49:09.673 --> 00:49:15.939
So when morality is involved, not forgiving can almost be construed as a moral failing and here comes the shame.

00:49:16.335 --> 00:49:22.218
Not just that I feel bad, but you are bad, which is not the way that it works, in my opinion.

00:49:22.218 --> 00:49:25.877
And I've never seen that shame component be part of a healing process, ever.

00:49:27.183 --> 00:49:30.538
But then the people that sometimes then say this is what you need to do and I

00:49:30.538 --> 00:49:35.258
think they mean well, but they don't know what it's like to be you.

00:49:34.421 --> 00:49:41.775
So that, when you feel like you had a moral failing as well, just adds a whole other layer of guilt and shame to an already complicated emotional landscape.

00:49:42.685 --> 00:49:46.646
So now let me take acceptance framed in the acceptance and commitment therapy model.

00:49:47.861 --> 00:49:50.985
So that diverges from this as well because it doesn't moralize the situation.

00:49:51.381 --> 00:49:58.826
Acceptance is not about what you should do based on a spiritual or ethical framework, it's about what you choose to do based on your own experiences and feelings.

00:49:59.429 --> 00:50:03.291
And it doesn't necessarily mean it's a return to the previous state of the relationship,

00:50:03.822 --> 00:50:07.693
or it's not a suppression of emotions for a perceived higher moral ground.

00:50:08.251 --> 00:50:13.427
Instead, it focuses on the full acknowledgement of your experiences, your feelings, and the reality of the present moment.

00:50:14.139 --> 00:50:17.031
So whether you're dealing with a societal pressure to forgive and forget,

00:50:17.031 --> 00:50:20.629
or you're navigating the complex moral landscape tied to biblical forgiveness,

00:50:21.097 --> 00:50:25.094
acceptance offers this alternative route because it centers on your emotional well-being.

00:50:25.311 --> 00:50:30.262
And if you want to look at that as, and you are a child of God, you are the only version of you.

00:50:30.307 --> 00:50:32.371
Fits right into that acceptance and commitment therapy model.

00:50:32.371 --> 00:50:37.481
You're this unique blend of all of your nature and nurture and birth order and DNA and abandonment and rejection.

00:50:37.896 --> 00:50:41.425
And so you have your own unique values and talents and abilities.

00:50:42.037 --> 00:50:46.971
So then again, it goes back to centering on your emotional well-being and the reality of what you've lived through,

00:50:46.971 --> 00:50:51.066
helping you move forward without the added burden of these external expectations.

00:50:51.813 --> 00:50:58.448
So, I don't want to get too far away from the goal here. Let's not move away from you and your loving, compassionate self.

00:50:58.745 --> 00:51:05.190
Because if you are trying to forgive and forget and wipe the slate clean, and you start going down that, what's wrong with me path,

00:51:05.515 --> 00:51:08.962
you're going to move away from you and your loving, compassionate self.

00:51:09.557 --> 00:51:18.863
And what really does make you, you. Because here's another ACT principle that I will just shout from the rooftops, and that is the concept of a socially compliant goal.

00:51:18.863 --> 00:51:25.536
That if you are doing something simply because you think that you're supposed to or that that's what others will expect from you,

00:51:25.950 --> 00:51:33.503
then your motivation to do so is going to be weak and ineffective because it goes against your own process of becoming or unfolding.

00:51:33.881 --> 00:51:40.663
And then when we're living these this life full of social compliant goals and we're not even aware of what our core values are,

00:51:41.082 --> 00:51:47.213
then we're going to be turning to our old friend experiential avoidance, which I will do anything other than the thing that I really don't buy into in the first place.

00:51:47.600 --> 00:52:07.623
And so that's where people start to turn to unhealthier coping mechanisms, whether it is, I mean, I work so much in the world of people that turn to things like pornography and gambling and phones and food and all sorts of things as unhealthy coping mechanisms as a form of experiential avoidance because they don't really feel connected with who they want to be as a person.

00:52:07.783 --> 00:52:18.623
And those traits that make you who you really are, those are essential and they are so important in the concepts of you being able to get to this place of acceptance for your own emotional well-being and growth.

00:52:19.324 --> 00:52:21.623
So, I'm going to kind of stick with the Christian perspective for a moment.

00:52:21.623 --> 00:52:27.623
I would argue that embracing acceptance, as we've defined, is actually a more Christ-like approach to life.

00:52:27.623 --> 00:52:33.143
To life. Because think about it, by accepting yourself fully, warts and all, you'll be able to

00:52:33.143 --> 00:52:38.903
better be your authentic self. And if you see yourself as a child of God that acceptance frees

00:52:38.903 --> 00:52:43.863
up so much emotional energy, then you no longer have to play the exhausting game of asking what's

00:52:43.863 --> 00:52:47.783
wrong with me, just because you can't forgive and forget. You realize that you're a human being,

00:52:47.987 --> 00:52:51.463
and in this scenario, crafted by God with a full range of emotions and experiences,

00:52:51.463 --> 00:52:54.823
and those things happen. And all these things can eventually be for your good.

00:52:55.972 --> 00:53:00.103
And the beauty of this acceptance is that it can actually lead you closer to an understanding of

00:53:00.103 --> 00:53:04.583
God as a loving, caring, and compassionate entity who wants nothing more than for you to be happy.

00:53:04.583 --> 00:53:08.377
And if you don't come from a Christian background, this idea is equally transformative, because the

00:53:08.663 --> 00:53:13.303
moment you truly embrace who you are, every trial, every triumph, you lock in incredible potential

00:53:13.303 --> 00:53:18.183
for good, because you actually have all those tools within you. You do. The beauty of you is

00:53:18.183 --> 00:53:24.263
within you. And then life becomes this opportunity for you to self-confront and grow. So the more

00:53:24.263 --> 00:53:30.406
that the more of these experiences you have and you learn from them through this process of differentiation,

00:53:30.730 --> 00:53:34.556
then the better you become because you are the only version of you.

00:53:35.420 --> 00:53:39.759
So having been through hard times is not a life sentence, it's an education.

00:53:40.236 --> 00:53:44.423
So the more you've struggled, truthfully, the deeper your capacity is for joy and love.

00:53:44.612 --> 00:53:45.566
How ironic is that?

00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:51.111
That's this power of polarity. The concept that life spectrum includes is both dark and light,

00:53:51.336 --> 00:53:55.319
sorrow and joy, pain and pleasure. Nobody can fully comprehend another person's life journey,

00:53:55.319 --> 00:54:00.599
but I promise you that surviving tough times equips you to feel more, love more, appreciate

00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:05.639
life in its fullest sense. So here's what I almost want to say. Cue the music. Bring in my soapbox

00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:11.159
and let me put on a wig because I would love to feel the wind blowing through my hair. So I kind

00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:15.879
of need hair. Dug on it. Okay. But honestly, I can stand before you not just as a therapist,

00:54:15.879 --> 00:54:20.359
but as a living testament to this truth. That's why I am so passionate about helping everybody,

00:54:20.585 --> 00:54:23.639
whether you're struggling with emotional immaturity, whether you're the pathological

00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:28.519
kind person, recognizing that you are both on these parallel journeys, journeys that

00:54:28.519 --> 00:54:33.239
lead not to a dead end, but to a life filled with a greater depth of love and gratitude.

00:54:34.349 --> 00:54:38.544
Okay, so let me catch my breath. So what a journey we've been on today. I mean,

00:54:38.919 --> 00:54:43.479
we started by diving into the nuanced differences between narcissism and emotional immaturity,

00:54:43.622 --> 00:54:48.759
and just reminding ourselves that this true narcissistic personality disorder is rare,

00:54:48.987 --> 00:54:52.679
but emotional immaturity is something we all grapple with at some point. And then we hit on

00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.319
the fact that taking accountability, how important is that for our actions, for our lives? And then

00:54:57.319 --> 00:55:03.079
I get to introduce the calm, confident energy vibe, this middle ground between being a doormat

00:55:03.247 --> 00:55:08.279
and being confrontational. And then this state allows us to approach life with emotional maturity,

00:55:08.423 --> 00:55:12.519
and it helps us differentiate our thoughts from our emotions. And that is such an essential skill

00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:17.399
for healthier relationships. And then talking about the transformative power of mindfulness,

00:55:17.399 --> 00:55:21.159
meditation, make them your best friends, because these practices are not just these

00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:25.399
hippie feel-good activities. They have a profound impact on your central nervous system and play,

00:55:25.959 --> 00:55:32.039
a very critical role in helping you show up as your best self. And then, oh, my favorite thing,

00:55:33.079 --> 00:55:36.969
digging into acceptance as outlined through acceptance and commitment therapy.

00:55:37.464 --> 00:55:41.533
So then contrasting that with the societal or even biblical views of forgiveness,

00:55:42.037 --> 00:55:45.559
and that acceptance, I really believe, is a more compassionate and realistic approach,

00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:49.086
especially when we're dealing with emotional scars that don't just easily fade away.

00:55:49.905 --> 00:55:54.075
And then the experiences, they're not roadblocks, they're stepping stones.

00:55:54.075 --> 00:55:59.159
Your struggles are shaping you into a person of deep feeling and compassion and extraordinary resilience.

00:55:59.772 --> 00:56:03.724
So in short, if you've listened this far and you're here listening and you're on this journey,

00:56:04.111 --> 00:56:11.151
you're becoming a pretty incredible human being, not in spite of what you've been through, but because of what you've been through.

00:56:11.475 --> 00:56:16.669
I went on the virtual couch last week. I had a good friend, Rachel Nielsen, on from 3in30 Podcasts for Moms.

00:56:17.092 --> 00:56:20.153
And I've been on her podcast a couple of times. She always has three takeaways.

00:56:20.315 --> 00:56:25.716
And I have not done three takeaways in my podcast.

00:56:25.815 --> 00:56:28.885
And so just in her honor, I thought about these action steps.

00:56:29.155 --> 00:56:33.089
So first, do a little check-in. Maybe I will call it a self-audit for emotional accountability.

00:56:33.435 --> 00:56:36.315
Take a few moments at the end of the day, and then review your interactions

00:56:36.315 --> 00:56:40.318
and your emotional states. Did you find yourself reacting in ways that were emotionally immature?

00:56:40.675 --> 00:56:43.655
And all of this is coming under the place of grace and acceptance.

00:56:43.655 --> 00:56:45.683
Did you operate from a place of calm, confident energy?

00:56:46.275 --> 00:56:50.418
And note these instances down in a journal. Reflect on what triggered certain actions.

00:56:51.075 --> 00:56:55.910
And over time, you'll just start to be more aware of your emotional patterns and how to improve upon them.

00:56:56.555 --> 00:56:58.683
Maybe action step two, yeah, it's mindfulness.

00:56:59.315 --> 00:57:03.652
Start small, dedicate five or 10 minutes each day to a practice of mindfulness or meditation.

00:57:03.795 --> 00:57:09.305
And you can do this by simply focusing on your breath or do a quick body scan to check in with yourself or find an app.

00:57:09.555 --> 00:57:13.235
I really am a big fan of those. Or if you have a watch that will give you haptics

00:57:13.235 --> 00:57:16.295
or that will help you breathe in or out, whatever you need to do.

00:57:16.295 --> 00:57:19.361
But the idea of just practicing, continue to be present and create a habit out of it.

00:57:19.815 --> 00:57:24.249
And this will improve your ability to stay present in difficult situations. I guarantee it will.

00:57:24.835 --> 00:57:27.895
And then you are going to come from a place of more emotional clarity.

00:57:27.895 --> 00:57:29.938
And then practice acceptance.

00:57:30.255 --> 00:57:33.431
Sometimes maybe it's important to start to learn how to have a pause.

00:57:33.855 --> 00:57:36.249
The next time you find yourself in a challenging emotional situation,

00:57:36.515 --> 00:57:40.174
maybe a confrontation or an awkward interaction, practice the pause.

00:57:40.295 --> 00:57:44.162
Instead of reacting immediately, just take a step back, take a breath,

00:57:44.395 --> 00:57:47.538
and allow yourself to simply accept what you're feeling in the moment. Are you angry?

00:57:48.135 --> 00:57:53.101
Are you anxious? So instead of pushing these emotions away by trying to take control some way,

00:57:53.215 --> 00:57:56.558
acknowledge them, accept them, they're there, then decide how you're gonna respond.

00:57:56.995 --> 00:58:01.293
Because that gives you the space to act from a place of acceptance rather than emotional reactivity.

00:58:01.395 --> 00:58:07.262
So thank you for joining me today on hopefully what is maybe a little bit of a transformative journey.

00:58:07.895 --> 00:58:12.055
Because I believe that everybody listening, again, especially if you're still listening right now,

00:58:12.055 --> 00:58:16.237
that is a pretty incredible opportunity for growth and happiness, you are not alone on this path.

00:58:16.535 --> 00:58:20.895
And I cannot wait to, we'll dig in more. Send me your questions, send me your examples,

00:58:20.895 --> 00:58:22.775
and we'll talk about this next time.

00:58:23.052 --> 00:58:25.775
Well, we won't talk about this exact same thing. We've got another recording planned,

00:58:25.775 --> 00:58:28.651
but we'll talk about it again down the road on Waking Up to Narcissism.

00:58:28.775 --> 00:58:29.516
Have a great week, everybody.

00:58:29.520 --> 00:58:37.596
Music.