WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.480 Music. 00:00:06.472 --> 00:00:11.682 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 87 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. 00:00:11.682 --> 00:00:16.339 I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, 00:00:16.798 --> 00:00:21.122 husband, father of four, and also host of the Virtual Couch podcast, as well as Murder 00:00:21.122 --> 00:00:28.882 on the Couch, The Mind Mirror and Me, and soon an ADHD podcast with my good friend, 00:00:28.882 --> 00:00:34.562 author and speaker, Julie Lee. So do me a favor and go sign up for the newsletter because 00:00:34.562 --> 00:00:38.342 that is where you're going to find out everything. There should be a link tree link in the show 00:00:38.342 --> 00:00:43.122 notes or you can just go to TonyOverBay.com and sign up there. And if you have questions 00:00:43.122 --> 00:00:47.422 and comments and thoughts and stories and poems or want to be involved in one of the 00:00:47.422 --> 00:00:51.462 private Facebook groups for men or women, please reach out to me. I would love to get 00:00:51.462 --> 00:00:55.516 you connected there as well. But let's get into today's episode. 00:00:56.662 --> 00:01:01.482 So let's start with a story and this is a true story, not even just a based off of a 00:01:01.482 --> 00:01:05.722 true story. This is a true story, but I have changed the name of the person, but they had 00:01:05.722 --> 00:01:10.962 reached out and we will call her Amelia. So Amelia had always been, she liked to consider 00:01:10.962 --> 00:01:15.302 herself a seeker, somebody who believed that every obstacle and every encounter was an 00:01:15.302 --> 00:01:19.962 opportunity for growth. And she had a relationship and we'll call the guy Mark. Mark, she met 00:01:19.962 --> 00:01:24.864 during a work seminar and he seemed to be no different. Mark was charismatic and he 00:01:25.162 --> 00:01:30.162 captured the attention of anybody within his proximity. So to Amelia, Mark was not just 00:01:30.162 --> 00:01:33.362 a romantic interest, but she also felt like he was a little bit of a puzzle. 00:01:33.488 --> 00:01:41.602 Somebody that had just these depths that she believed that she could navigate and understand, but in the process that she could also grow with. 00:01:42.067 --> 00:01:45.722 Because she truly had grown up not knowing what a real healthy relationship looked like. 00:01:46.298 --> 00:01:51.202 So as the months turned into years, Amelia found herself in this ever demanding 00:01:51.202 --> 00:01:55.922 course of what she started to look at as differentiation class 101, because she, 00:01:56.762 --> 00:02:02.214 She felt like Mark's charm, because she felt like Mark's charm often veered into manipulation, 00:02:02.882 --> 00:02:07.402 and sometimes she felt like his confidence got a little bit too egotistical, and there 00:02:07.402 --> 00:02:09.560 she started to Google the word narcissism. 00:02:10.082 --> 00:02:13.485 But each interaction felt like a little bit of a tightrope walk for Amelia. 00:02:14.042 --> 00:02:19.157 So she was trying to maintain her individuality without succumbing to Mark's very strong emotional currents. 00:02:19.642 --> 00:02:24.702 And Amelia is a very intelligent person. She had the degrees to back up that concept. 00:02:25.682 --> 00:02:26.970 Had the degrees to back it up. 00:02:27.880 --> 00:02:33.490 And so Amelia really said, I can take every episode as a lesson. So when Mark would then 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:36.729 start to deflect blame onto her, then she would pause and think, okay, all right, 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:41.330 it's fair enough. Why do I feel guilty? Because I didn't do anything wrong or what part of me 00:02:41.330 --> 00:02:46.050 needs healing to not be swayed by these accusations from Mark. So she started to 00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:51.268 see all these moments as true opportunities to test her concepts of differentiation. 00:02:51.718 --> 00:02:55.970 And she believed that if she could master this relationship, then she will have grown leaps and 00:02:55.970 --> 00:03:02.187 in bounds personally, and she would in essence lead Mark into emotional safety and they would live happily ever after. 00:03:02.890 --> 00:03:06.905 But however, as she started to dive deeper and she started a journey into therapy, 00:03:07.370 --> 00:03:11.410 and started to look into self-awareness, then there was another little voice that started to whisper, 00:03:11.410 --> 00:03:12.864 almost imperceptibly at first. 00:03:13.305 --> 00:03:15.934 And it really was her gut instinct, her visceral reaction. 00:03:16.450 --> 00:03:22.290 And it was starting to nudge her to recognize the difference between challenging growth and what she started 00:03:22.290 --> 00:03:23.820 to identify as self-preservation. 00:03:24.570 --> 00:03:28.006 So sure, every encounter with Mark taught her something. 00:03:28.915 --> 00:03:33.325 What was the cost? So late one evening after another one of their heated arguments where 00:03:33.325 --> 00:03:39.325 Mark had twisted her words, Amelia sat in this dimly lit living room and she was trying to look 00:03:39.325 --> 00:03:45.485 at herself and she had heard in the podcast, waking up to narcissism, here's an opportunity 00:03:45.485 --> 00:03:50.765 to self-confront, introspect, and grow. And she said it dawned on her that while she was chasing 00:03:50.765 --> 00:03:55.976 growth, that she was also ignoring the loud, clear alarms that her instincts were ringing, 00:03:56.462 --> 00:04:02.088 Every time that she would justify Mark's behavior as a lesson, she was starting to sideline her own well-being. 00:04:02.755 --> 00:04:06.743 And so this realization, she said it felt very sharp and very unsettling. 00:04:07.346 --> 00:04:14.521 Could she have been using this idea of personal growth to avoid admitting that she might be in an unhealthy relationship? 00:04:15.367 --> 00:04:21.285 And so she was on this balance of growth and well-being, and well-being and growth. 00:04:21.285 --> 00:04:24.665 Growth and she felt like she was almost on this teeter-totter and it almost got 00:04:24.665 --> 00:04:28.465 into a rhythm which she thought was good or is it good but just because she was 00:04:28.465 --> 00:04:31.652 learning and evolving didn't mean that she was in a situation that was, 00:04:32.265 --> 00:04:36.765 ultimately beneficial or safe for her. So the struggle to differentiate herself 00:04:36.765 --> 00:04:40.627 from Mark's emotional immaturity had become the primary focus so much that, 00:04:41.145 --> 00:04:48.665 she started feeling like she missed seeing the overall picture and she really was starting to lose herself. So then she said she felt like with a heavy 00:04:48.665 --> 00:04:53.665 heart, she realized that growth is not just about learning through challenges, but also 00:04:53.665 --> 00:05:00.385 about recognizing and how to listen to her own body. In essence, that body-keeps-the-score 00:05:00.385 --> 00:05:06.185 concept. And that might even mean when to step away. Trusting one's gut, she concluded, 00:05:06.185 --> 00:05:10.865 is as much a part of personal development as any lesson a challenging situation could 00:05:10.865 --> 00:05:16.065 provide. And she said it wasn't an overnight decision, but eventually, she decided to choose 00:05:16.065 --> 00:05:20.768 her well-being over the exhaustive, never-ending lessons that her relationship with Mark presented. 00:05:21.585 --> 00:05:27.214 So she embraced this understanding that while growth is absolutely essential, that it couldn't 00:05:27.331 --> 00:05:32.579 come at the expense of her peace, her safety, and then her overall intrinsic worth. 00:05:33.516 --> 00:05:37.366 So, with that start, let me just say that I did an episode on the virtual couch a week 00:05:37.366 --> 00:05:42.797 or two ago about this concept of differentiation, and it has been very well received, but I, 00:05:43.446 --> 00:05:48.333 also know that it can be hard to look at every exchange with somebody who is manipulative 00:05:48.432 --> 00:05:53.212 or emotionally immature or even narcissistic as these opportunities for growth, when our, 00:05:53.846 --> 00:06:00.360 body is also in the process of trying to simultaneously fire off warning bells as well as protect 00:06:00.405 --> 00:06:05.766 yourself and those around you and try to make sense of things that you thought made sense 00:06:05.766 --> 00:06:09.566 and now you're learning they maybe don't make sense and P.S. I also hear the phrase 00:06:09.566 --> 00:06:15.367 I'm just exhausted more in the context of people that are in emotionally immature relationships 00:06:15.682 --> 00:06:18.464 than those who are coming in simply trying to learn how to communicate better. 00:06:19.326 --> 00:06:24.351 So I think it often is the brain's way this emotional exhaustion to just say let me just, 00:06:25.046 --> 00:06:29.506 get a little rest because maybe this will help me make sense of things and I will stand 00:06:29.506 --> 00:06:36.522 up for myself tomorrow. Or I will give my spouse or my partner that aha moment tomorrow 00:06:36.684 --> 00:06:40.586 after I get a good night's rest. What I want to do first is give a quick explanation 00:06:40.586 --> 00:06:45.206 on the concepts of what differentiation really is. Because it's a psychology buzzword 00:06:45.206 --> 00:06:50.786 for sure, but it's also a superpower. So my goal today is going to be that if anything, 00:06:50.786 --> 00:06:54.671 by the end of this episode, that you are going to have a much clearer understanding of what, 00:06:55.186 --> 00:07:00.086 what it really does mean to be differentiated, even if it is something that you don't feel 00:07:00.086 --> 00:07:02.701 like you can reach in your current relationship. 00:07:03.686 --> 00:07:06.905 Or let me give you multiple versions of... 00:07:08.046 --> 00:07:13.765 Okay, so I'm going to share some content from the Virtual Couch episode on differentiation. 00:07:13.886 --> 00:07:16.766 And let me just say that one of the things that I used to joke about 00:07:16.766 --> 00:07:19.566 when I very first started podcasting seven or eight years ago 00:07:19.760 --> 00:07:25.522 and then I doubled down on with the publication of my first book, which was about three or four years ago, 00:07:25.726 --> 00:07:28.123 was that I would never be the person 00:07:28.446 --> 00:07:30.046 who would someday quote themselves. 00:07:30.046 --> 00:07:32.679 I felt like that was extremely, extremely pretentious. 00:07:33.066 --> 00:07:35.766 I feel like, oh, the ego necessary for that, right? 00:07:36.406 --> 00:07:40.736 Anyway, let me turn to the transcript from the virtual couch episode and tell you what I said, 00:07:41.126 --> 00:07:42.536 because doggone it, it was just so good. 00:07:43.046 --> 00:07:48.045 And I truly hope that you are recognizing sarcasm and irony and just humor in general. 00:07:48.126 --> 00:07:56.146 So let's just say that I am quoting a podcast differentiation that may then in fact be by me. So Bowen's differentiation of 00:07:56.146 --> 00:08:02.346 self-theory revolves around the idea that individuals vary in their ability 00:08:02.346 --> 00:08:05.686 to distinguish between their own thoughts and feelings and those of 00:08:05.686 --> 00:08:15.666 others. So those with higher levels of differentiation can better maintain their individuality even in the face of external pressure, but they can still be 00:08:15.666 --> 00:08:21.826 connected and emotionally available to others. So what does that mean? 00:08:20.580 --> 00:08:26.350 It means that every encounter that we have, every word exchanged or emotion felt in response to 00:08:26.350 --> 00:08:31.070 another, and it doesn't just mean another person, it means an interact, it can mean a movie that 00:08:31.070 --> 00:08:36.154 you watch, it can mean an interaction that you have, it can mean anything is an opportunity to 00:08:36.270 --> 00:08:42.510 be this mirror reflecting aspects of ourselves. So, these reactions often, they can offer this 00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:47.710 invaluable insight into our internal landscape of our minds or what it feels like to be us. And then 00:08:47.710 --> 00:08:52.052 And by examining those, then we start to open up these pathways for personal growth. 00:08:52.670 --> 00:08:57.030 So if I even dig down even more, let's simplify that even more, Bowen's theory is basically 00:08:57.210 --> 00:09:01.009 like this, that some people are really good at knowing their own feelings and thoughts. 00:09:01.670 --> 00:09:03.601 Separate from what others feel or think. 00:09:04.090 --> 00:09:07.905 And when they're good at this, then they get to be themselves, even if there's peer pressure. 00:09:08.470 --> 00:09:12.550 But they can also connect and be there emotionally for others. 00:09:12.550 --> 00:09:14.150 Let me give a couple of examples. 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:18.167 So honestly, I feel like this is one of those things that you're talking about when I'm 00:09:18.410 --> 00:09:22.272 giving a talk to a bunch of teenagers, but I run into this with adults a lot. 00:09:22.810 --> 00:09:26.610 You and your friends are at a party. And again, I'm not talking about your teenager friends. 00:09:26.610 --> 00:09:29.910 I'm talking to the adults listening because I get to hear all kinds of stories, but you're 00:09:29.910 --> 00:09:34.910 out with your friends and you don't want to drink, or there may even be some drugs being 00:09:34.910 --> 00:09:38.062 passed around and your friends want you to. 00:09:38.690 --> 00:09:42.650 So you either have a history of drinking and you're trying to move past it, or maybe you 00:09:42.650 --> 00:09:46.990 You don't drink period, but the peer pressure doesn't necessarily wane when you're older. 00:09:46.990 --> 00:09:49.081 So you're out with friends, but you don't want to feel left out. 00:09:49.570 --> 00:09:53.942 So remembering that you are now hearing about differentiation and about being true to oneself, 00:09:54.110 --> 00:09:55.851 you decide it is time to be honest. 00:09:56.190 --> 00:09:58.956 So you say something like, Hey guys, I am really not wanting to drink. 00:09:59.325 --> 00:10:03.110 I can be the designated driver, but then your friends say, that's what Uber is for. 00:10:03.110 --> 00:10:03.962 So don't let us down. 00:10:04.322 --> 00:10:08.337 We don't get out very much. It'll only be this one time and all of those types of responses. 00:10:09.030 --> 00:10:13.050 From a differentiated place, you see this as an opportunity for growth. This is an 00:10:13.050 --> 00:10:17.110 opportunity to start to hold a boundary without even having to get angry at 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:21.903 somebody or beat yourself up so it really is that no I'm good you guys you do you. 00:10:22.587 --> 00:10:26.431 And then your friends can still look surprised and then shrug, okay, you're missing out. 00:10:27.278 --> 00:10:32.997 But then you are able to stand in that healthy ego, that confidence and say, well, maybe so, 00:10:32.997 --> 00:10:37.637 but that's a me thing. You guys have fun. And then you pull out your phone and you film them 00:10:37.637 --> 00:10:41.510 and make fun of them together the next day. And I'm kidding with that. But even though 00:10:41.654 --> 00:10:44.805 you are deciding to be different from your group, you can still feel connected, 00:10:45.381 --> 00:10:49.486 and you can joke with them. And you can take that concept into any experience, 00:10:49.774 --> 00:10:55.637 Whether it's a bunch of your friends want to go see a scary movie and you just really do not want to be scared. 00:10:56.526 --> 00:11:01.637 But in that story before, you are showing differentiation because you know your own feelings. 00:11:02.134 --> 00:11:05.637 And then you have the courage to express them even if your friends feel differently. 00:11:06.248 --> 00:11:08.637 And you can still stay connected and on good terms with them. 00:11:09.282 --> 00:11:13.637 Now, not being differentiated is, again, you do not want to drink. 00:11:13.637 --> 00:11:17.474 But you fall to peer pressure and we do that even as adults. 00:11:17.780 --> 00:11:20.463 And then the message that you're sending is that if you are pushed enough, 00:11:20.877 --> 00:11:22.173 then you'll relax on your boundaries. 00:11:22.517 --> 00:11:28.077 And even if you are saying, well, I won't do it again, this is the last time, that may just be a way 00:11:28.077 --> 00:11:30.041 to get you out of that discomfort of that moment. 00:11:30.924 --> 00:11:34.117 But once you get out of that discomfort, are you doing that work to make sure 00:11:34.117 --> 00:11:38.717 that it doesn't happen again the next time? For the remainder of the night, then you may feel guilty, 00:11:38.717 --> 00:11:43.717 you may feel some shame and eventually drink maybe even way too much to try to not feel those feelings 00:11:43.717 --> 00:11:45.228 and then beat yourself up the next day. 00:11:45.637 --> 00:11:48.676 And which for the record, I'm still saying I'm no fan of shame. 00:11:48.997 --> 00:11:50.593 That's still not a way to handle the situation. 00:11:50.877 --> 00:11:53.726 But if we're sticking to the concepts of differentiation, I think you can see where I'm going. 00:11:54.377 --> 00:11:58.173 So in that version, then you've suppressed your true feelings and you go along with the group. 00:11:58.717 --> 00:12:02.317 And it illustrates a lack of differentiation. And I work with that in my office, 00:12:02.317 --> 00:12:03.764 I will say on a daily basis. 00:12:04.297 --> 00:12:09.037 The people are unable to express their individuality and instead they merge with the desires 00:12:09.037 --> 00:12:10.714 and feelings of friends and others. 00:12:11.097 --> 00:12:15.728 So that concept again of differentiation is where one person ends and the other begins. 00:12:16.157 --> 00:12:21.390 And I often like to say that in the middle of that, that place where differentiation resides 00:12:21.477 --> 00:12:22.768 is a lot of invalidation. 00:12:23.197 --> 00:12:26.504 Because a lot of times we find ourselves in these friendships and relationships with people 00:12:26.677 --> 00:12:29.231 that do want you to be their emotional support animal. 00:12:29.337 --> 00:12:34.119 So they are just asking you to come along with them so that they have someone there to validate them. 00:12:34.537 --> 00:12:39.332 But are they really respecting you or getting to know you if they're trying to push your boundaries? 00:12:39.597 --> 00:12:44.418 Because I will maintain that is not the greatest example of a friend. 00:12:44.837 --> 00:12:48.874 So somebody that respects your boundaries, then that means that they too are differentiated. 00:12:49.397 --> 00:12:53.197 And those friendships can just seem a lot easier. And this is where I like to say 00:12:53.197 --> 00:12:58.345 that friendships and relationships really don't need to be as difficult as they often feel. 00:12:58.597 --> 00:13:03.957 And the reason why they will feel difficult is because you may often be asked 00:13:03.957 --> 00:13:10.717 to overlook your boundaries, give up your boundaries so that someone else can have somebody there 00:13:10.717 --> 00:13:12.649 to validate what they are going through, 00:13:12.757 --> 00:13:14.783 where that really is more of a them issue. 00:13:15.791 --> 00:13:21.801 Or let's give a couple of examples and these are based off of real stories where a husband 00:13:21.801 --> 00:13:25.961 needs to be differentiated from his wife. We'll call this couple Mark and Lisa and they've been 00:13:25.961 --> 00:13:33.453 married for several years. So over time Mark has recognized Lisa's emotional immaturity 00:13:33.867 --> 00:13:37.711 and often reacting to situations impulsively without considering Mark's feelings or the. 00:13:38.361 --> 00:13:43.626 Ramifications of her actions. So one evening Lisa returns home and she has impulsively purchased 00:13:44.022 --> 00:13:50.041 a lot of things expensive handbag just a lot of things without running it by mark and not in the 00:13:50.041 --> 00:13:55.321 controlling running it by mark but they are trying to shore up their spending so feeling concerned 00:13:55.321 --> 00:13:59.578 about their tight financial situation then mark takes a deep breath and instead of reacting 00:13:59.881 --> 00:14:04.041 angrily he calmly says hey i really understand that you like this bag and that there are these 00:14:04.041 --> 00:14:07.617 things that you really felt you needed but i truly wish we could have discussed this first 00:14:08.031 --> 00:14:12.121 because as we have tried to discuss we have other priorities right now and then lisa immediately 00:14:12.121 --> 00:14:16.601 and defensively snaps back, you always make me feel guilty about spending. And then Mark remaining 00:14:16.601 --> 00:14:20.841 composed says, hey, I am truly not trying to make you feel guilty. I'm just trying to express my 00:14:20.841 --> 00:14:24.802 concern about our finances. And I would love it if we could sit down together and go over our budget. 00:14:25.405 --> 00:14:30.201 So that would be the differentiated version. Now, in reality, the Mark in this situation, 00:14:30.841 --> 00:14:35.155 said that unfortunately, when he saw the expensive handbag, he really said, are you serious? Why 00:14:35.401 --> 00:14:39.575 would you do this? You don't even think about the conversations we had an hour ago. So then 00:14:39.801 --> 00:14:41.393 then she felt attacked and she said, 00:14:41.646 --> 00:14:44.112 you are always so controlling about how I spend 00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:45.418 and it's my money too. 00:14:45.721 --> 00:14:49.117 And now even more upset than Mark says, you don't even think about us or our future, 00:14:49.207 --> 00:14:50.333 you only think about yourself. 00:14:50.721 --> 00:14:55.887 And you can only imagine that argument escalated and neither person felt heard, and they both felt attacked. 00:14:56.661 --> 00:15:00.951 So, in that first scenario, that is Mark's differentiation, and that allows him to communicate 00:15:00.951 --> 00:15:05.195 his feelings without attacking Lisa or overly reacting to her impulsivity. 00:15:05.951 --> 00:15:09.791 So then he maintains his individuality, expresses his concerns without getting swept up in the 00:15:09.791 --> 00:15:15.311 emotional whirlwind, but in that second scenario, his lack of differentiation results in him 00:15:15.311 --> 00:15:22.219 reacting very impulsively and emotionally, which is really mirroring Lisa's emotional immaturity herself. 00:15:22.911 --> 00:15:26.151 And we could probably even add a third scenario where Mark simply doesn't say a thing because 00:15:26.151 --> 00:15:29.754 he's already sure or he believes where the conversation is going to go. But then 00:15:30.091 --> 00:15:33.951 by stuffing his feelings, he's either going to eventually explode, lose his 00:15:33.951 --> 00:15:37.391 sense of self, look for validation outside of the marriage, or quite frankly 00:15:37.391 --> 00:15:41.991 start to exhibit a decline in his health. Because at some point his own body is 00:15:41.991 --> 00:15:45.651 saying, Mark, bro, you can't keep doing this. What do we have to do? We'll throw 00:15:45.651 --> 00:15:48.640 some chronic pain, maybe a little irritable bowel syndrome your way. Maybe, 00:15:49.231 --> 00:15:53.259 if you're afraid of having an accident in the chip aisle of a Walmart, you might 00:15:53.571 --> 00:15:59.461 actually do something different in your relationship. So this concept of differentiation is actually 00:15:59.531 --> 00:16:05.051 something that is necessary for one's own health. So relating these concepts about Bowen's 00:16:05.051 --> 00:16:09.931 theory of self-differentiation, I think we can deduce then there's a few things, and 00:16:09.931 --> 00:16:15.026 this is again coming from the virtual couch episode, that our reactions are indicators. 00:16:15.531 --> 00:16:19.851 So when we react to something that somebody has said, it's not just about that individual 00:16:19.851 --> 00:16:25.478 or their words. It's about our own internalized values or our beliefs or our emotional patterns. 00:16:25.901 --> 00:16:30.651 So if you have a strong reaction, whether it's positive or negative, then that can be an 00:16:30.651 --> 00:16:36.226 indication of areas where we may have a lower level of differentiation. So for example, if we 00:16:36.491 --> 00:16:41.691 find ourselves excessively upset or anxious about somebody's opinion, then it probably suggests that 00:16:41.691 --> 00:16:47.051 we are pretty enmeshed in or we are fused with the emotional states of others. That we really 00:16:47.051 --> 00:16:53.771 do feel like we have to caretake them or that we are just we're responsible for someone else or 00:16:53.771 --> 00:16:59.531 we can deduce that these these opportunities for growth they really are ways that we can become 00:16:59.531 --> 00:17:04.971 more differentiated a better human being because recognizing that these reactions provide us with 00:17:04.971 --> 00:17:09.851 a unique opportunity to look introspectively then now we can start to look at everything as 00:17:09.851 --> 00:17:15.211 an opportunity to grow so why did that comment affect us so deeply what does this tell us about 00:17:15.211 --> 00:17:19.131 our own beliefs or values or unresolved emotions. Because if you can dive into 00:17:19.131 --> 00:17:23.971 those questions, then that can aid in your own journey of self-differentiation. 00:17:24.352 --> 00:17:31.248 And as you learn to understand and separate your emotional response from the person that's delivering it or whatever that external stimuli is, that. 00:17:31.771 --> 00:17:39.926 Is when you can start to feel empowered and truly look at everything as an opportunity to grow and I will keep going back to that concept. 00:17:39.107 --> 00:17:44.037 And it becomes this eventual state of being where when you recognize this is the very 00:17:44.037 --> 00:17:48.077 first time that you're going through life as you in that situation, and that there is 00:17:48.077 --> 00:17:51.485 nothing wrong with you, you are not broken, you're a human, and then you can step back, 00:17:51.997 --> 00:17:53.997 and say, check this out, here's my reaction. 00:17:54.537 --> 00:17:57.436 Now I can look at that reaction with curiosity and say, why did I react? 00:17:58.137 --> 00:18:02.900 Is this something that I feel that I need to prove? Is this something, someone that I feel I need to fix or save? 00:18:03.517 --> 00:18:10.651 Or did that person, did that button hit me hard because this brings back some childhood experience? 00:18:11.425 --> 00:18:16.497 So things truly do become a way for you to look and grow because ultimately you are only 00:18:16.497 --> 00:18:19.937 in charge of your own thoughts and feelings and emotions. 00:18:19.937 --> 00:18:28.170 These concepts can also enhance this self-differentiation. So by consistently reflecting on our reactions and using them as tools for introspection, 00:18:28.617 --> 00:18:32.077 we can start to work toward increasing this level of self-differentiation. 00:18:32.617 --> 00:18:36.077 And so then it doesn't only help with your own personal growth, but you'll also see it 00:18:36.077 --> 00:18:40.773 start to bleed into fostering healthier relationships because you can remain emotionally connected 00:18:40.997 --> 00:18:46.966 without becoming overwhelmed or unduly influenced by the emotions and thoughts and feelings of others. 00:18:47.717 --> 00:18:52.997 So as every interaction continues to serve as a potential growth point, then there are 00:18:52.997 --> 00:18:57.677 these moments that can really spotlight where you're at, what your level of self-differentiation 00:18:57.677 --> 00:19:00.407 is in certain situations and with certain people. 00:19:00.957 --> 00:19:07.637 You can start to put those clues together and it's like solving your own puzzle. Here's a concept that I really want to get down solid in today's 00:19:07.637 --> 00:19:14.237 episode, and it is again quoting the differentiation episode from the virtual couch, but I've cleaned up the quote and I've added a little bit to it 00:19:14.237 --> 00:19:19.762 as well. So imagine every time somebody says or does something and you react, you 00:19:20.077 --> 00:19:27.981 get mad, happy, or upset, that it really is like getting a pop quiz about yourself. Why did you feel that way? What is it saying about you? 00:19:28.728 --> 00:19:37.955 So if we go back to then Bowen, this father of differentiation, talks about the idea that we need to learn the difference between what we feel and think and what others feel and think. 00:19:38.396 --> 00:19:44.095 And the better we get at this, the better we handle drama, stay calm and steady, and become more consistent. 00:19:44.761 --> 00:19:56.410 So when things go down in life, and inevitably it will, things will go down, and you feel some type of way, you get all up in your feelings, that it really is like life's way of giving you hints about who you are. 00:19:57.130 --> 00:20:01.018 And differentiation does not mean that you don't care about other people's feelings or thoughts. 00:20:01.658 --> 00:20:06.458 It just means that you can tell the difference between theirs and your own. So it's about 00:20:06.458 --> 00:20:12.378 balancing your individuality with your connection to others. And it means recognizing what emotions 00:20:12.378 --> 00:20:17.556 and thoughts are truly yours versus which ones you're feeling because of somebody else's influence, 00:20:17.997 --> 00:20:22.058 and their manipulation, maybe their emotional immaturity, or just simply their expectations. 00:20:23.066 --> 00:20:36.956 So, let's now start to shift into maybe what would be the real meat of this episode on this podcast, Waking Up to Narcissism, and that would be the asterisk of, but what about emotional immaturity and potential personality disorders? 00:20:37.568 --> 00:20:46.058 How does that play into this role of differentiation when someone else on the other side of the relationship is being emotionally manipulative or narcissistic? 00:20:47.138 --> 00:21:00.058 So I think we can even make an argument of why differentiation, or again the ability to maintain one's own sense of self while being emotionally connected to others, is especially important when interacting with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals. And here's why. 00:21:01.127 --> 00:21:07.987 So let's start with emotional immaturity and enmeshment. So emotionally immature individuals often have a really hard time recognizing boundaries. 00:21:08.545 --> 00:21:14.058 So they may be prone to emotional outbursts, they act impulsively and make everything about themselves. 00:21:14.058 --> 00:21:22.378 Themselves. If you are not well differentiated then it's easy to become enmeshed in their world. And enmeshment again means that you become so deeply 00:21:22.378 --> 00:21:26.298 involved in their emotional state that it's hard to tell where their feelings 00:21:26.298 --> 00:21:30.738 end and yours begin. So differentiation helps you recognize and maintain your 00:21:30.738 --> 00:21:37.418 own boundaries and protect your emotional well-being. And I tried to come up with some narratives and these are all going to be based off of a 00:21:37.418 --> 00:21:42.578 combination of clients or examples or emails that have come in. Let's let's 00:21:42.578 --> 00:21:44.464 talk about someone, we'll call her Sarah. 00:21:44.938 --> 00:21:50.198 So remember when I'm saying that life throws these pop quizzes, so Sarah gets her quiz 00:21:50.198 --> 00:21:55.033 when Jane, her close friend, would freak out over just the tiniest little things. 00:21:55.138 --> 00:22:00.058 So instead of just instinctively trying to pacify Jane, then Sarah has to pause and say, 00:22:00.058 --> 00:22:05.058 "'Why do I feel like I need to calm her storm?' And she realizes that she's blurring this line 00:22:05.058 --> 00:22:09.409 between being supportive and then absorbing or taking on Jane's emotions. 00:22:10.084 --> 00:22:15.297 And that's when she learns that she can be there for her friend without losing herself in the process. 00:22:15.738 --> 00:22:18.313 So that would be this lesson learned about enmeshment. 00:22:18.898 --> 00:22:24.434 And let me just make the note that it can be very difficult because we've identified, I think, a lot on the podcast, 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:30.975 that a lot of times the more pathologically kind person finds themselves in that human magnet syndrome 00:22:30.975 --> 00:22:34.076 with the more emotionally immature, narcissistic individual. 00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:39.455 And a lot of times the pathologically kind people are on that chart of highly sensitive. 00:22:39.455 --> 00:22:45.455 So a highly sensitive person. So that enmeshment can just start to feel overwhelming. And so then 00:22:45.580 --> 00:22:52.815 the person in this scenario, Sarah, when she's reacting to Jane's moods and her fits and her 00:22:52.935 --> 00:22:59.135 emotional storms, that then it can even be about Sarah's need to try to or desire to get rid of 00:22:59.135 --> 00:23:06.727 that emotional discomfort by trying to go and soothe or pacify or take care of Jane. But that. 00:23:07.375 --> 00:23:10.076 That is part of that process of becoming enmeshed. 00:23:10.495 --> 00:23:15.135 So when you are starting to step out of enmeshment, unfortunately, in this scenario, 00:23:15.135 --> 00:23:19.051 Jane is not gonna say, man, I see what you're doing there, Sarah, and good for you. 00:23:19.235 --> 00:23:24.095 You need to be your own individual self. No, Sarah and Jane are probably friends at this point 00:23:24.095 --> 00:23:28.395 because Sarah does go in and try to calm Jane's emotional storm. 00:23:28.815 --> 00:23:31.771 And when Sarah does that, Jane's off to the next thing. 00:23:32.275 --> 00:23:34.859 And when she has another emotional outburst, then what does she do? 00:23:35.295 --> 00:23:41.322 She instinctively runs to Sarah because Sarah will try and fix or take the blame for, or just... 00:23:42.232 --> 00:23:49.077 Be become so enmeshed with Jane that then Jane again feels better and that pattern just continues, 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:56.572 another reason why this is so important is the just the concept of narcissistic manipulation because narcissistic individuals or, 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.717 Incredibly emotionally mature individuals by nature are manipulators. So they often use tactics like gaslighting 00:24:03.009 --> 00:24:07.477 So making you question your own reality or even things like emotional blackmail to get what they want, 00:24:08.122 --> 00:24:14.145 So, a well-differentiated person is more resilient against these tactics because by having a strong sense of self, 00:24:14.658 --> 00:24:19.477 then you are less likely to be swayed by the narcissist or the emotionally immature person's manipulation, 00:24:20.203 --> 00:24:23.210 or to start doubting your own perceptions and feelings. 00:24:24.137 --> 00:24:27.477 And so, that becomes very, very important from a concept of differentiation, 00:24:27.477 --> 00:24:37.477 is to really discover and trust who you are as a person, because then you won't be as likely to then fall back into that enmeshment or manipulation. 00:24:37.477 --> 00:24:44.477 I think this one comes maybe from more of the workforce, but let's say a person named Mike, 00:24:45.050 --> 00:24:50.477 and then every time his business partner Alex turns a conversation around, he will make Mike feel guilty. 00:24:51.198 --> 00:24:56.477 And that was Mike's pop quiz moment. So he began to step back and wonder, why do I always end up feeling like the bad guy? 00:24:57.248 --> 00:25:00.477 So the reflection helps Mike understand the mind games at play. 00:25:01.083 --> 00:25:03.957 And he learned that he had the right to speak up without being manipulated. 00:25:03.957 --> 00:25:11.317 That is differentiation, but again back to this concept with emotional immaturity, that doesn't mean that Alex, his business partner, is going to have 00:25:11.317 --> 00:25:19.037 the aha moment, but that's Mike's opportunity to recognize that as he becomes differentiated, that he deserves to have his own thoughts, feelings, and 00:25:19.037 --> 00:25:19.537 emotions. 00:25:20.284 --> 00:25:26.478 Another reason why this is so important with emotionally immature narcissistic individuals is just the concepts of self-preservation and being authentic. 00:25:27.134 --> 00:25:33.134 Because interacting with emotionally immature or narcissistic people can be incredibly draining. 00:25:33.134 --> 00:25:39.648 And differentiation allows you to prioritize your needs and your own well-being over that of the emotionally immature. 00:25:40.134 --> 00:25:42.718 It does not mean shutting yourself out from the other person. 00:25:43.134 --> 00:25:45.941 But it means being true to your own feelings and your beliefs and your boundaries, 00:25:46.374 --> 00:25:52.144 even, I almost wanna say not if, but when the other person disapproves or tries to push them 00:25:52.494 --> 00:25:55.420 because those boundaries become a challenge to the emotionally immature. 00:25:56.464 --> 00:26:02.294 I've jotted down a note of, it's a person named Emma, and it's another kind of a classic pop quiz moment. 00:26:02.294 --> 00:26:05.534 Every time her brother criticized her, instead of automatically second-guessing herself, 00:26:05.534 --> 00:26:08.690 she said, okay, why does this opinion make me doubt my choices? 00:26:09.590 --> 00:26:13.014 And so that introspection taught Emma to value her judgment and make decisions, 00:26:13.479 --> 00:26:17.934 felt authentic even if she didn't get her family seal of approval. So at first 00:26:17.934 --> 00:26:21.734 that was again I hope you can see that the differentiation piece is being able 00:26:21.734 --> 00:26:26.289 to move from I need someone's opinion or I need their validation to then, 00:26:26.854 --> 00:26:35.694 recognizing that I can trust myself and that I can step away from needing somebody's seal of approval in order to take action on the things that really 00:26:35.694 --> 00:26:42.714 matter to me. Another concept will be avoiding the role of the enabler. So without proper differentiation it's really easy to fall into the role of the 00:26:42.714 --> 00:26:46.697 enabler. And so this means that you might even start to unconsciously support or 00:26:46.760 --> 00:26:50.694 cover up for the emotionally immature or narcissistic person's poor behavior. So 00:26:50.954 --> 00:26:54.114 differentiation helps you recognize and break out of that dynamic because it will 00:26:54.114 --> 00:26:58.535 ensure that you don't contribute to the continuation of these unhealthy patterns. 00:26:58.994 --> 00:27:01.954 Let's talk about somebody named Jake. Every time that he instinctively reaches for 00:27:01.954 --> 00:27:08.154 his wallet, when his friend Leo starts coming up with a sob story, it's handing 00:27:08.154 --> 00:27:11.138 Jake this pop quiz, why am I always bailing him out? 00:27:11.874 --> 00:27:17.260 And then Jake had to really look inward and he realized his generosity was being taken for granted. 00:27:17.368 --> 00:27:21.257 And that insight was all he needed to start setting some boundaries and prioritize his well-being. 00:27:21.394 --> 00:27:24.426 Again, Leo didn't just say, okay, you're right. 00:27:24.634 --> 00:27:28.207 He even amped up the manipulation or the gaslighting. 00:27:28.634 --> 00:27:33.986 But the more that Jake was able to sit in that confidence and that discomfort and that invalidation, 00:27:34.314 --> 00:27:39.874 then he started recognizing that it was okay for him to not continue to bail Leo out of these situations 00:27:39.874 --> 00:27:42.412 that he felt like were, they always came with a sob story. 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:50.865 Another thing, another reason why this is so important is the concept of empowered communication, because differentiation supports open, honest, and assertive communication. 00:27:51.342 --> 00:28:00.090 And it allows you to absolutely express your needs, your desires, your boundaries in interactions without fear of retaliation. That's what's so important. Or without the need for approval. 00:28:00.090 --> 00:28:05.090 This becomes really crucial when you're dealing with individuals who may not respect or acknowledge your feelings. 00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:11.778 I'm thinking of a client, I'm starting to try to jot down the name so I don't reuse one, let's call her Mia. 00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:18.007 She had a pop quiz every time she felt the urge to just do chores herself instead of confronting her roommate in college. 00:28:18.439 --> 00:28:21.779 And she just said, why am I scared to talk about what's bothering me? 00:28:22.175 --> 00:28:28.783 So she had a question and her introspection paved the way for more open communication and voicing her concerns was okay. 00:28:29.090 --> 00:28:48.858 And I think back to the role of this going on in an emotionally immature relationship, it does not mean that the roommate said, you're right, I will start pitching in, but it's okay to start expressing your own needs and wants from a differentiated standpoint, because that will be part of this path of growth and learning. 00:28:49.101 --> 00:28:52.350 And then one more is this, why this is important 00:28:52.350 --> 00:28:53.770 is a grounding reality, 00:28:53.770 --> 00:28:56.168 because emotionally immature and narcissistic individuals, 00:28:56.250 --> 00:28:57.850 they create a whirlwind of drama. 00:28:57.850 --> 00:29:02.163 So a differentiated individual starts to learn to remain grounded in their own reality. 00:29:02.330 --> 00:29:06.115 So then they are far less likely to be swept up in the chaos. 00:29:06.232 --> 00:29:09.670 And so that clarity helps them make decisions that align with their own values 00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:11.730 instead of being reactive to the drama. 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:15.631 And what is so fascinating about this is that that drama is necessary 00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:18.340 to the emotionally immature and narcissistic individual. 00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:26.244 It basically is the way that they express their sense of self, so then they will find a new supply. 00:29:26.310 --> 00:29:31.322 It's what we often talk about, if you just hold steady and remain firm and differentiated. 00:29:32.042 --> 00:29:38.739 So, in essence, with that concept, differentiation serves as an emotional and kind of like a psychological anchor. 00:29:39.208 --> 00:29:47.238 And it grounds you in your own sense of self, even amid, we'll call it a tumultuous sea of emotionally charged interactions. 00:29:47.590 --> 00:29:52.530 So then it allows you for having healthier relationships and interactions, especially when you're navigating 00:29:52.530 --> 00:29:56.321 this terrain of the emotionally immature narcissistic personality types. 00:29:56.890 --> 00:30:00.570 Because the more you become differentiated, and I can't stress this enough, 00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:03.451 then you are not as much of a target 00:30:03.810 --> 00:30:08.630 for the emotionally immature narcissist because they need that drama, they need that conflict, 00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:11.922 they need that dust up in order to survive. 00:30:12.490 --> 00:30:19.450 So then as you become differentiated, then you're either going to see that person change, 00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:23.670 the relationship change, or you have now recognized that you are in a position 00:30:23.670 --> 00:30:26.487 you deserve a better relationship. 00:30:27.595 --> 00:30:34.229 So let's talk about emotions and thoughts. Have you ever been told then you are being too emotional or advised to use your brain, not just your feelings? 00:30:34.851 --> 00:30:40.900 Because it is a common belief that emotions are these messy, inconvenient things that get in the way of making rational decisions. 00:30:41.458 --> 00:30:49.128 But there is a twist in the story because our brains are designed in this amazing way where emotions actually are the things that take the lead. 00:30:49.848 --> 00:30:56.402 So imagine that you're in a video game and there is a character who is very fast and he dashes ahead of everybody else. 00:30:56.744 --> 00:31:03.244 Yeah, he has rockets on his shoes. That's, that's kind of this metaphor for our emotions because they are always first to the scene. 00:31:03.874 --> 00:31:08.405 Then there's another character, a bit more relaxed, always strategizing, maybe taking in the surroundings. 00:31:08.690 --> 00:31:12.003 That's our thinking process because it's thorough and it's analytical. 00:31:12.624 --> 00:31:16.805 And speaking of which, let me tell a quick story about Jasmine. 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:17.885 We'll call her Jasmine. 00:31:18.368 --> 00:31:25.362 So she is a thinker in every sense of the word. And then among her friends, she, though it was basically known as a classic overthinker, 00:31:26.045 --> 00:31:28.909 and she would always pause and analyze situations before making a move. 00:31:29.445 --> 00:31:33.845 But she talked about one time going to the beach, and she said she was taken by surprise 00:31:33.845 --> 00:31:37.965 when her instincts then just overpowered her usual analytical self. 00:31:37.965 --> 00:31:41.605 And she noticed just that it was a kid's ball that was heading out toward the ocean. 00:31:41.605 --> 00:31:45.485 So in a heartbeat, she just jumped up, she dashed over, snatched the ball, handed it 00:31:45.485 --> 00:31:47.211 back to the relieved child. Everybody's happy. 00:31:47.742 --> 00:31:51.721 But she said when she went back and laid it down on her beach towel, she said she found herself pondering, 00:31:52.198 --> 00:31:54.773 why did I run so spontaneously without overthinking? 00:31:55.511 --> 00:32:02.875 And she said her answer was clear, her emotions. Because in that instant, they were in overdrive, and they guided her before her thoughts had a chance to weigh in. 00:32:03.505 --> 00:32:07.285 And she said it actually reminded me of those childhood days when she was told things like, 00:32:07.285 --> 00:32:08.969 don't cry, no need to get upset. 00:32:09.383 --> 00:32:13.326 Because over the years, she'd learned to mute those instant emotions and lean heavily on her thoughts. 00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:16.684 But that day on the beach, she said it was kind of like my wake-up call. 00:32:17.233 --> 00:32:25.299 She said, I really don't need to sideline my emotional instincts, but instead I need to blend them harmoniously in with my analytical side. 00:32:25.885 --> 00:32:29.981 So that lesson from her experience is that while our emotions are our brain's alert system, 00:32:30.602 --> 00:32:36.993 They signal us way before our thought process kicks into gear, but both have an immense amount of value. 00:32:37.795 --> 00:32:46.158 And here's the science-y bit that backs it up, so research in the field of neuroscience shows that our emotions and our brain light up about two and a half times faster than our thoughts. 00:32:46.662 --> 00:32:54.899 They're kind of like that turbo mode on a car, while our thoughts are more like the cruise control. So what do we do with that? The hope is you can harness the power of both. 00:32:55.645 --> 00:33:04.090 So the next time that you are labeled too emotional or you find yourself sidelining your own feelings, remember that there is a beautiful interplay happening in our brains between feeling and thinking. 00:33:04.648 --> 00:33:08.375 So when we respect and we understand the synergy, 00:33:08.933 --> 00:33:11.005 then that's when we truly start to thrive. 00:33:11.005 --> 00:33:18.557 So we embrace this balance of our thoughts and our emotions and that becomes more or less our superpower. 00:33:19.205 --> 00:33:23.256 As we wrap things up today, let me pull together these golden threads of the conversation. 00:33:23.589 --> 00:33:26.765 So we started, we dove deep into Bowen's differentiation of self-theory, 00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:30.125 which is in simple terms, it's about understanding where our thoughts and feelings 00:33:30.485 --> 00:33:36.192 and understanding where our thoughts and feelings and where others begin and end. 00:33:36.685 --> 00:33:40.405 And I know it sounds simple, but it is a lot harder in practice, 00:33:40.405 --> 00:33:45.485 especially when navigating relationships that are emotionally immature or narcissistic. 00:33:45.485 --> 00:33:49.185 And so speaking of those relationships, if you find yourself in those relationships 00:33:49.185 --> 00:33:52.685 with the incredibly emotionally immature or even narcissistic, then you know 00:33:52.685 --> 00:33:56.780 it is a bit of a rocky road, which is a very wonderful ice cream, I'm not gonna lie. 00:33:56.925 --> 00:34:00.645 But while deciding whether to stay or leave in such a relationship, understanding differentiation 00:34:00.645 --> 00:34:04.285 is, you can see why it's crucial, because it's about carving out your emotional 00:34:04.285 --> 00:34:08.664 and mental space even when faced with overwhelming emotions or manipulative tactics. 00:34:09.375 --> 00:34:14.155 But here's where it gets tricky. Do you ever get that gut feeling about something, but you can't quite put it into words? 00:34:14.587 --> 00:34:18.071 That is your visceral reaction. And it's an instinctive, emotional response. 00:34:18.656 --> 00:34:22.815 And it can come from our childhood days. Many of us have been conditioned to push aside those gut feelings. 00:34:23.225 --> 00:34:25.840 Don't overreact. You're being too sensitive. It's not that serious. 00:34:26.524 --> 00:34:28.225 That stuff starts to sound pretty familiar, right? 00:34:28.973 --> 00:34:33.690 So over time, by suppressing those feelings, we are essentially stifling our built-in survival instincts. 00:34:34.225 --> 00:34:38.385 And here's the catch, emotions, no matter how deep we bury them, they have a knack for 00:34:38.385 --> 00:34:39.985 starting to resurface. 00:34:39.985 --> 00:34:46.095 And if we ignore them too long, they can explode in ways that we may not be very happy with. We may even regret. 00:34:46.734 --> 00:34:49.840 But remember, amidst all the complexity, this is the beauty of it. 00:34:50.105 --> 00:34:51.406 You are the only version of you. 00:34:52.045 --> 00:34:56.305 And you've got that blend of your nature and nurture and DNA and abandonment, rejection 00:34:56.305 --> 00:35:00.480 of past experiences and dreams and hopes and fears and even past wounds. 00:35:00.985 --> 00:35:08.727 But that basically means there is no one else like you. So your journey, with its ups and downs, is exclusively yours. 00:35:08.985 --> 00:35:12.945 So no matter where you are right now, as cliched as it is, that is exactly where you need to, 00:35:13.804 --> 00:35:18.925 be. So as I sign off, I hope you'll carry forward this understanding and just view every challenge 00:35:18.925 --> 00:35:21.905 as this opportunity for growth, even when it's difficult. 00:35:22.176 --> 00:35:25.840 But you must treat yourself with kindness and grace and forgiveness. 00:35:26.105 --> 00:35:30.545 No matter the tides or the storms of life, I just hope you will believe in this, that 00:35:30.545 --> 00:35:33.505 You do have the strength and the wisdom to sail through this. 00:35:33.505 --> 00:35:38.785 Just continue to stay curious, even if it's only about yourself and your situations, and 00:35:38.785 --> 00:35:39.550 stay strong emotionally. 00:35:39.785 --> 00:35:42.404 And if you can't physically, that's going to help too. 00:35:42.905 --> 00:35:49.145 But most importantly, start to stay you. Figure out who you are and then continue to beat that amazing, wonderful person. 00:35:49.145 --> 00:35:52.739 And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, send them my way and I will see you next time 00:35:52.919 --> 00:35:54.269 on waking up to narcissism. 00:35:54.480 --> 00:36:03.800 Music.