Music.
Welcome to episode 84 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch Podcast.
And there's a brand new podcast on the Virtual Couch Podcast Network.
It is called The Mind, The Mirror, and Me, which I am low-key, lightly co-hosting
with my daughter, Mackie, who was a guest on the Virtual Couch a week ago.
And I would love for you to go check that one out. I'll put the link to her show in the show notes,
but it's The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.
She's taking on mental health and wonderful father-daughter interactions
and hilarity ensues, depth, emotions, all the feelings.
So I'm really excited about that.
And a new episode of Murder on the Couch is coming out pretty quick too.
Now, you can also go to the link tree in the show notes and you can find out anything that you need
from my parenting course or my magnetic marriage workshop.
A reboot of the magnetic marriage course is coming soon. If you wanna be in the private women's Facebook group
or the upcoming men's group, just a lot of things there.
We'll put those in the show notes.
And quickly, if you started listening to last week's episode,
Death by a Thousand Cuts Part Five, and it sounded like the episode the week before,
well, you were correct.
Here's where I could gaslight my entire audience and say, that was a test to see how many of you would recognize that
and to not feel crazy, but I did make a mistake in uploading a file,
so that was remedied.
And I worry that a lot of people heard that episode and then never went back
and actually got the Death by a Thousand Cuts Part Five.
So I would recommend you go back, and that file was changed within about 24 hours.
So today's topic, there's a couple of things that I'm really excited to talk about.
I'm gonna start with a question from a listener and then we're gonna work our way into this concept
called a bridge partner.
I used to call them to my clients, transactional figures or transactional characters in your life,
but that just sounded so impersonal.
I think that you'll appreciate what a bridge partner is, so we'll get to that in a little bit.
But first I wanna go with a question.
The question is, I'm in a transition phase where I'm moving from doing things out of obligation,
seeking approval or following rules, to pursuing what feels genuinely right for me,
but I'm struggling to find the balance. It's like I've swung to the other extreme,
feeling like now I can do anything.
How can I align my newfound personal values,
with a sense of boundaries without going to extremes. And so the reason that I think this is so applicable and comes up in the world of emotional
immaturity or narcissistic traits and tendencies is that when people do start to figure out
that they have been, they've been for the most part controlled or told how to think
or feel or what their values should be, then as they start to recognize that they are the
only version of them and that's okay, and they start to figure out what does matter
to them, it's almost that cliched kid in a candy store who maybe never was able to have
candy early on and so they don't even know if they like chocolate or if they like gummy
things or sour things are so difficult. But if they like Airheads or Warheads and so now
where do they even go? And are they just going to go in there and basically just get a tummy.
Ache? Probably in that scenario and maybe life's version of a tummy ache is you're going
to try a whole bunch of things and start to feel like, oh, I shouldn't have done that
one or I didn't like this one. But in reality, now is that opportunity of growth. And if
If you really don't have a place or know which direction to go, well, just start going
because you're interacting with others and the world around you will give you the chance
to recognize if these are things I like to do or I don't like to do, or if these are
people that I feel safe with or don't, or are these conversations easy or not, because
things really shouldn't be as complicated as we make them out to be.
So when you find yourself in a good, healthy place, then when people are trying to control
you or tell you what to do or what to think then that's where it's just it's
adorable that they think that they have that kind of power on you they must be
pretty powerful but in reality everything at the end of the day becomes an opportunity for you to self-confront and grow so that self-confrontation may
be the discomfort of
Saying no to somebody or a situation or putting your needs first Which I think when people even hear that that are listening they think well that sounds pretty selfish
and I'm not here to make that judgment statement because sometimes that's selfish is,
One needs to be to turn to self-care to put themselves in a better position to just to be the best.
Them that they can be so I'm getting off the outline that I had laid out here because I want to touch on a few
Key things I did throw out a little narrative here so imagine that you've spent your life living in a small confined room where every move that you make is dictated by rules and,
obligations the expectations of others and then your actions are being constantly monitored and
Then you perform these tasks to just simply gain approval or meet the standards of your community or your religious beliefs
And then one day you're in that room and you I don't you move the bed or maybe there's a little mini fridge and you
Move it out of the way to do some cleaning and then there's a door
And this is why this archetype is so fascinating. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe are these things where you find a secret or hidden portal to a completely different world, because there are people that feel so confined that that's all they can do is dream about Narnia or whatever that looks like.
So, in this scenario, you move that, let's say, the mini-fridge, and there's a door,
and now you step out into this vast open field.
So that, at first, that sense of freedom is going to just be exhilarating, but then suddenly,
now you're not confined by those old rules, and you begin to explore what feels right
for you, and you don't know if that line is friendly, or if you want to go left, or if
you want to go right, because you're so worried about getting it wrong that you often feel
paralyzed because you've not even realized that you've lived in this way, that there.
Was a I'm doing it wrong or that person sure seems mad.
But in reality, there really isn't, in that scenario, a right or a wrong. You don't know.
Now, our brain still wants certainty. Oh, man, does it. It wants to know that I'm going to go
the right direction because I don't want to waste time or I don't want to waste my effort. But you
have to have that acceptance that time may be wasted and effort may be wasted because if I'm
worried about if I will waste time or if I will have a wasted effort, then I'm going to worry so
much and waste so much just valuable life trying to figure out what's the best way to not waste my
time or to have experiences that I don't think are gonna be good for me. That's
where I want to say everything is going to be for your good if you look at it as
an opportunity to self-confront and grow. So then the realization in the scenario
hits you that without any boundaries then we worry. I'm now at risk for
losing myself entirely to this this newfound freedom because when you are not confined by those rules and we go back to this example of now you're in
in this open field, you all of a sudden just wanna dance and laugh and run wildly and just be guided
by your heart and your intuition,
but you're going to still be held back by these thoughts of,
but again, what if I'm doing it wrong?
Or what if I don't make the most of this opportunity?
It's an opportunity and you just being and doing in it, that is the best.
That's part of this newfound freedom is that it's an emotional freedom as well.
That exhilaration, it's normal when that starts to turn into confusion and you start to feel unease
because you're used to being told yes or no, good or bad, black or white, all or nothing.
So how do you start to navigate that whole experience without guidance?
And where do you, what the listener was asking is, where do you draw the line?
What's the balance between personal autonomy and a structured, responsible life?
So when you hear it in this context, let's go back to that, what's the balance between personal autonomy,
we're good with that, Structured, responsible life.
If structure helps you, then we can explore that. But responsible life, responsible for who?
Because ultimately, it needs to be what is responsible for you.
So your journey in this scenario has gone from this place of just absolute restriction
to then one of liberation.
And what you're looking for is this, kind of like this middle path.
And our brain does not like ambiguity, does not enjoy the gray,
because that's why we wanna just know. I wanna know.
And then acceptance becomes a, okay, that is definitely a thought I wanna know
and I need to learn how to invite, I want to know, I want certainty,
I want to get rid of discomfort.
All of those can come with me while I start to explore and be and do and grow.
And over time, I go back to that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you,
which is based off of these slow residue of lived experience starts to be, I'm one who does and I'm doing
and I'm being and I'm going.
And then if that doesn't work, well, then I've got some data So now I'm gonna go a different direction.
This is where I like to say often when I was leaving my computer software career, It almost scares me.
To think of, I looked at being a financial planner, I looked at working and writing papers for a construction management attorney,
and because I thought, oh, I could write newspaper articles, I could write well.
Or I thought about, what was the other thing? Oh, pharmaceutical sales rep.
And I interviewed in some of these areas, and then I just feel like, okay,
I'm so glad that point A led to B and B led to C and C led to D. This was going to be a part-time career, the therapy was.
It was just going to scratch a little itch. And who ever thought about a podcast or a book or a group or anything?
So, just start doing and being and you're going to find your way when you allow yourself to go in the directions that you go.
I feel like that's a Dr. Seuss book of some sort, that you're just going to go in that direction you're going to go.
So, we have a really quick overview of my favorite therapeutic modality then, acceptance and commitment therapy.
If you put it in this context of this question and that scenario that I just laid out,
That transaction, that shift that somebody is going through is significant because you're going from a life driven by external expectations or socially compliant goals, doing things because you think you're supposed to, to one where now you're seeking this personal authenticity and you're not even sure what it means.
Because if you found yourself in that situation of being controlled, most likely you didn't have a secure attachment as a kid, so you weren't encouraged to explore.
You were more of the emotional support person, I was going to say animal, of maybe a parent.
And so it was the, I think you should do this because that will make me feel good, says parent,
even if you're thinking, I don't really like this. So then what it feels like to be you is,
I guess I have to do things I don't like for other people so that they won't get mad,
because then maybe I'll get scraps of praise from time to time. What's that intermittent
reinforcement concept? So the person that is giving you the praise is also delivering you
the punishment, whether it's emotional, physical, financial, verbal, you name it.
So it is so natural to then grapple with your own internal compass in your personal boundaries
as you start to go through this change.
So in acceptance and commitment therapy, there's some tools that one uses that I've done episodes
on over on the virtual couch.
You can pick up the virtual couch, or you can pick up a book like The Happiness Trap
or The Confidence Gap by Russ Harris, or Act Made Simple, I think it's also by Russ Harris,
edition where they've added the first edition was more for clinicians and it
went over so well with the general public that the second edition they
added so much more into that but there's just some I'll give a quick overview of
some of these one is called cognitive diffusion and this means diffusing or
separating from your thoughts understanding that they are just thoughts and they don't define your reality that is a thought if I'm if I'm
fusing to the I will never find happiness story.
Then that's going to bring me, it's really going to bring me down. But if I recognize that is a thought, it's the old, I may never find happiness story. Okay, I may never. And I know that I can make that sound. So it's so simple and easy and dismissive. But it does become that way over time. Because I've gone through these periods with my own brain where that's what I've said often. Oh, okay. Thank you, brain. Or that's a thought or yeah, who knows. And it is pretty normal to have those internal dialogues with yourself. And they are far better than the what's wrong with
with me, I need to figure this out,
I should have done it different,
because those are all just thoughts.
So cognitive diffusion, learning to diffuse from these thoughts and just be able to understand,
they're just thoughts, they don't define your reality.
So in this scenario, if you have that thought of I can do anything now, it can mean a lot
of different things for people. So I can do anything now, what do I do?
So you can get caught up into it. So you might say to yourself,
and this is what defusing looks like, if I am saying I'm so mad right now,
I am noticing that I'm mad.
And it sounds maybe insignificant until you start to do that in all facets of your life.
So I'm noticing that I'm feeling anger.
That is far different than I'm angry. Or I notice that I am feeling nervous
about this impending thing that I have to do versus the, oh, I'm losing my mind, I'm freaking out, I'm nervous.
Because if I'm noticing that, then I can take a second and I may also notice that I'm also feeling hungry.
I may notice that I wish I would have worn a different shirt.
I may notice that I forgot to brush my teeth. I mean, I may notice a lot of different things.
So then I'm noticing that I'm angry is just one of many things.
And so then I can start to recognize that, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts, I have a lot of feelings,
but boy, am I making meaning on this one.
And I can learn to defuse or just kind of let that one go.
Which leads to another principle and act called acceptance. And this is about making room for the unpleasant feelings or these uncertainties
and allowing them to exist without judgment.
This is where you start to get to the I'm noticing that I'm telling myself that what's wrong with me story.
That is a story. I also have a story of what am I going to have for lunch?
I also have a story of I missed one set of pushups between client sessions today.
We'll note that I'm noticing all kinds of things. So I'm making room for all of these feelings and uncertainties
and they exist without judgment. There they are.
So, an example, instead of fighting against the confusion or unease that you might feel during this transition, just acknowledge it.
I feel confused. Yeah, I do. I feel confused about the next steps of this process as I start to untangle the web of being controlled my whole life.
So, yeah, I feel confused, probably feel some excitement from time to time, some unease, some confusion, some dread, some excitement.
I feel a lot of these things. So, just acknowledge them. That is part of this process.
Which then leads to the third principle of ACT, which is being present, because this involves focusing then on the current moment without judgment.
And this is where when people say, just be present, I think a lot of times people will say, I don't really know what that means.
But if you've already just acknowledged that cognitive diffusion, I am noticing, I am feeling, I'm having the thought that I can do anything, or I'm noticing that I'm feeling angry,
then acceptance of that, that is a thought, I absolutely feel this way, and I feel a lot of other things right now too.
So, that allows you to then get into that present moment.
So, instead of getting lost in the past or worrying about the future, which are those are the things that we do.
We think, man, if I would have only done these things different in my relationship, maybe I could have, some things would have been different.
And then that, as much as our brain wants to try to figure things out, it's just a thought.
And it causes us to have a lot of feelings. So, in ACT, this is one of those ones that I love so much.
The, if I would have done things different in the past, maybe things would have been better.
The real answer to that is, yeah, maybe.
Okay, are we done with that one? And then, and what if I never figure things out in the future? Well, that would be a thing too.
So, anyway, here in the present moment, that's what it means. We notice that we're ruminating or beating ourselves up about the past, and we notice we're worrying about the future.
And those are thoughts, and they're normal. And once we acknowledge those, but what are we doing in the here and the now?
So, if you're contemplating a decision, then instead of getting lost in this hypothetical scenarios, but boy, we can create a whole bunch of hypothetical scenarios,
then ground yourself in this present.
What are you feeling right now? What does this moment require?
Probably requires a little bit of action.
So maybe I'm gonna do. Well, do what? That is definitely a story my brain is telling me,
the old do what story.
So I'm gonna invite that to come along with me while I start to do, while I go, when I walk,
or I think, or I dream, or I read, or I just anything, do, do, do, do.
Self as context, that one comes next. You are not your thoughts, you're not your emotions,
you're not your memories.
This tool helps you connect with what is called the observing self,
the part of you that is a consistent observer of your experiences. So, example, when you are struggling with a decision, like,
where am I going to go or what do I do next? Then it's important to view yourself in the context of that moment. Oh, check me out right now doing the
old, what am I going to do next? That whole bit, that whole song and dance.
Because I'm not defined by this choice that I'm about to make or the emotions
that it brings up. I can observe the feelings and I don't have to get caught up in them.
Then that leads to values. Values clarification. One of the most powerful things in ACT is,
what are my core values? What is truly important to me? And understanding and defining those values
can start to guide the actions and the decisions. And I've done episodes on that in the past,
and I'm working on some material right now to help one define their values. So feel free to
reach out through the contact form if you're interested in that. Or here's a plug to go sign
up for the newsletter because that's a lot of what some of the things that are going to come
out are going to talk about soon. But if you want to get started on that, write down your core
core values. If personal autonomy is a value, how does a potential decision align with it?
If responsibility is a value, how's it being honored? If authenticity is a value, then
the yeah buts are going to come up in your mind. If you're saying, well, you know what?
I am from this day forward, I'm really going to just, I'm going to try to be my honest
self. I'm going to speak my truth. Then the yeah buts going to say, yeah, but you might
make some people angry or frustrated at you. And there's that, yeah, I might, but that's
not even the point if I'm trying to act in alignment with my core values.
So if one of your values is personal growth and you feel that an action might be an overextension
of your newfound freedom, then say, is this action conducive to my growth?
So finding a balance, answering this question, using these tools, it's like plotting points
on a map and as you start to align your actions with your values and you use these other tools
to navigate your thoughts, your emotions that arise, then you start to move forward in a
completely new way that feels free and grounded and there is not a wrong way to do it, you're
just doing it and that becomes incredibly liberating. And this journey is absolutely
individual which is something that people that have been in controlled relationships
are not used to. There again, no wrong or right way to navigate it because it's your journey,
you're navigating it. And it's about that commitment to yourself and your values and
being open to the range of experiences that come with growth. Being open that you may be at point
C and then you think you know what Z is at the end but really we're looking at well what's point D, What's coming next?
And then check that out and then rinse and repeat all these tools and eventually it just starts to
feel really it really does feel pretty liberating and exciting to just be a part of this journey
of life and figuring yourself out. Act loves metaphors and there's two that I thought of
that I want to share that I think are pretty fitting. There's one called passengers on the bus
that's a metaphor that says imagine you are the driver of a bus and this bus represents your
life's journey and there are a whole bunch of passengers on the bus and they are getting on
and off and those represent all your thoughts and your feelings and your memories and your emotions and some of the passengers are pretty loud and
disruptive and they are intimidating and they're telling you where to go like
not just where to go on a map but where to go or insisting that you need to turn
around or you to go back and they might be yelling at you that you're going the
wrong way or you shouldn't be driving at all and they might represent old beliefs about obligations or new feelings or unchecked freedom but you're
the driver of the bus that's why I love this this metaphor you actually have the
choice of where you want the bus to go. You don't have to kick the passengers
off. You don't even have to shout at them. You can acknowledge them. Okay, thank you.
I hear you. It's a great point. Thank you. You don't even have to tell them to sit.
Down. And you can still choose the direction based on your values and what's
meaningful to you. And you don't have to let the passengers take the wheel because they want to just go anywhere that they want to go in that very moment.
And they may be even battling for power and not even really care. There's not a
real reason behind that. They just want the power in that moment. They want to
drive. They want to take control. So in this context of the person that is at
their transition from living according to external expectations of the past to,
now trying to work toward more authenticity, those old beliefs, the obligations, the desires to please others, that would be those passengers on the
bus. And they would be loud and they're telling you to turn around. At the same
time, the newfound feelings of freedom, they might be another group of passengers, these ones are pretty cool, they're sitting up front toward the
right there so you don't have to turn your neck too far to look over and talk
to them, but they are enjoying the ride and they just want to have a good conversation with you.
And there might be that whole group too, that they're just yelling and screaming,
you have to, you want to keep telling them to sit down or you have to pull this bus over,
but don't pull the bus over. And so that, and that might be the newfound feelings of freedom.
I mean, that might be a, that group of passengers and they're pushing you to drive recklessly. You
can do whatever you want now, but break the speed limit, drive in the ditch, those sorts of things.
But again, by connecting with your core values and using these tools from things like ACT,
you can help decide the best route for the journey and acknowledge those voices,
but they don't get to dictate the course. And you're going to find yourself at some point.
But really, it really does, as cliched as it sounds, it does become more about the journey
and the ride when you have the right tools. And then I really enjoy the tug of war with
a monster metaphor. So let me share that one too. So imagine you are in a tug of war with a large
intimidating monster and that the rope, it represents the struggle with your conflicting
feelings and beliefs. And on one side, there's the pressure of past obligations and the need
for approval and the weight of rules and expectations. And that is this giant monster. It's big and
ugly and hairy and all the things that monsters are. And on the other side, there's the pull
of unrestricted freedom and the temptation to rebel against all constraints. So the harder
that you pull against the monster, the stronger it becomes and the more entrenched in the struggle you feel.
Now, Act suggests this different approach. What if you simply just dropped the rope?
This doesn't mean that the monster disappears. He's over on the other side of this giant pit or on the other side of the rope.
But you're no longer constrained by the battle and you're not actually giving him strength by pulling against the monster.
So by letting go of the struggle or dropping that rope, then you free yourself to move in directions that are aligned with your core values and meaningful purpose, even if the monster is still nearby and he's shouting his opinions. Absolutely is.
Is. So applying this metaphor to this situation, the conflict that this person feels between their
old beliefs and their newfound sense of freedom is like this never-ending tug of war. And by
recognizing they don't need to be pulled to either extreme, but instead choose to act on their
authentic values, then they can drop the rope and navigate life in a way that feels right for them.
Sometimes when you're, if you might be arguing with a emotionally immature partner and you're
trying to get the right tools and stay present, then this is where just dropping the rope,
don't you don't have to continue to engage in the argument. It can be difficult. And again,
we've identified many times on this podcast before that they will push bigger buttons.
It's not like they're going to say, I see that you no longer want to argue.
I think that's a splendid idea. And we'll pick this up tomorrow when our heads are calm. You're
not going to get that one, but you can drop that rope of the tug of war. Let's move on to bridge.
And here's full transparency. This is not like I'm some big bridge player,
but the word bridge is a great word and then it comes into play with the concepts that we're
going to talk about for the next little bit. So imagine you are sitting down for a game of bridge
and I do know that for people that are unfamiliar it is it's a card game but it requires strategy
and cooperation and understanding between two partners against another pair. So let's say it's
2v2 I think as the kids would say. The partners and bridge they rely heavily on each other they
They communicate through their playing of cards
and they create this synergy or this, they're edifying each other.
One plus one is three kind of thing to traverse the challenges that the game presents.
So they have to be locked in. They have to know each other, see each other.
I see what you're doing there.
So in the world of relationships then, I want to term this or coin this term of bridge partner.
So just as in the card game, these people, these bridge partners help you navigate a significant
role in your life. They may help you navigate this intricate dance of emotions and beliefs
and behaviors that define our need to connect or all of our human interactions. So they,
these partners at times provide not just a bridge from one place or relationship to another,
they're not just there for the immediate game of bridge, but they have this profound impact on
your life and they guide you from a state of confusion or pain to one of clarity or self-awareness.
Now, what I'm alluding to here, or maybe elephant in the room, is that these are often bridge
partners of the opposite sex. And we're going to talk about that more here in a little bit, but
the parallel is pretty uncanny because in bridge, partners have this short-term goal.
Now, we may view the bridge partner in our life as they're going to be there forever
and this is my partner, my person, they get me, but that's why I like this concept of
bridge partner because in bridge, again, if you're playing the game, partners have a short-term
goal and that's to win the particular game.
They don't necessarily plan to be lifetime partners in every match, but for that moment,
they are on the same page.
Now, can your bridge partner be someone that you are with the rest of your life? Absolutely.
Say that that's not the case, but so often we go back to we want certainty, we crave
certainty, so we may see that bridge partner as somebody that is for sure going to be this
person that I am going to be with the rest of my life because they are the person that
helped me feel seen and helped me feel understood.
But let's go back to this concept of in that moment what that person represents because
it is so significant to your healing or to your growth.
They see each other. Their combined efforts are their understanding and they're crucial.
So similarly, bridge partners in our lives might not be there forever.
We may feel like it, they need to be, but their presence or their support or their help
in you feeling seen and the lessons that they help you find within yourself or you're working
through together, they're pivotal because they offer this path of feeling trapped in
a relationship or a situation to understanding your worth or realizing what you truly deserve in life.
Partners show you that you are lovable. They may not be the final, the end-all,
the be-all, but they help you recognize, wow, why do I feel a connection to this
person? Why are we so good at Bridge? How can we communicate and be on such a same
page when in my relationship with my spouse I'm being told that nobody would
love me, that I'm not enough, and that I'm the problem.
So this is going to lead to a story, which then leads to a question from a listener.
This is based off of real events. Two friends, Alex and Jamie, found themselves at a party and
they were surrounded by a whole bunch of people talking. And there was just a whole buzz,
conversations, laughter. You could, like in a movie, you could hear glasses clinking.
And while their spouses mingled, there was a game of cards happening. And that caught their eyes.
And they both happened to like Bridge. And they had both, over the years, tried to get their
their spouses to play it, and their spouses both turned their noses up to the game.
So with their spouses not having much interest in the game, both seemed really actually almost
dismissive, as if the game was beneath them.
I pictured them looking through their monocle, holding up their pinky while they were drinking
some fancy drink, and saying, that's the game of the common folk.
Alex and Jamie though, Bridge had always been more than a card game, it had almost been
a little bit of a survival skill while they were in college.
And it was a shared passion, it was a way for them to communicate and connect.
So as the night progressed, these two old friends, Alex and Jamie, sat down for a game.
They were bridge partners and they were playing against the bring on the duo.
They were beating everybody that came, that sat across from them.
And the synergy between them was, it was evident. They communicated through every play, they relied on their mutual understanding and strategy
and they just felt like they were in alignment.
And that was even amidst, there was this noisy backdrop of the party and then the card game
became almost this, they could just, time stopped.
They felt so just on the same page, seen and understood.
It felt like the safe haven and they felt validated and connected and all those things.
But this scenario paints a pretty vivid picture of what I really am believing this concept
of a bridge partner represents. So in our personal journeys,
what that bridge partner concept looks like.
So just as Alex and Jamie connected deeply through their shared experience or their shared interest in the card game,
then life will present you with certain people that will play pivotal roles, acting as bridges,
from one emotional or relational state to another.
And these bridge partners, again, they're not always permanent fixtures in your lives,
and they could be, but they offer this connection or this shared experience that helps us move through
the dance of emotions and beliefs and behaviors, again, primarily from somebody that never felt like
they were enough, and quite frankly, you've probably been told that they aren't enough.
So in the game of bridge, just like life, partnerships, they can be transient.
And it's funny, when I say this, I'm not saying that we're talking one-night stands. You go in
there, you feel a connection of playing bridge, and then you're out. Although, and we'll maybe
get to this in a little bit, that the way that some people feel when they've been unseen, unheard,
traumatized in a relationship is where they can feel those temporary moments of that dopamine
bump of the one-night bridge stand, so to speak, and just think, oh my gosh, why did I do that?
And it might have been because they felt this connection or scene. Now, so back to this concept
of bridge partners. They may not last forever, but that influence can shape your understanding
or it can affirm your worth. It can guide you to more of a realization that, hey, I do deserve to
be seen. And I'm not as difficult as I've been being told that I am. So there's so much more
here. I know from a relationship standpoint, as a marriage and family therapist, Alex and Jamie
spouses in this scenario were by far the more emotionally immature partners. They
didn't simply just say I'm not for bridge but you know I know you love it
and you go play I'll mingle but it's not like they're over there being their
their number one hype man. Okay bridge my money is on my girl Jamie and if you.
Sit there talking smack to the other people on behalf of your partner if you
look up if you look up bridge in the dictionary you'll see Jamie. As a matter
of fact Jamie's husband is gonna go to the guy who owns the house and he's
gonna say hey do you have any tissues handy because my wife is about to make
these grown men cry with how bad they're going to get beat, you know, or,
or is there a therapist here at the party?
Because you're getting business tonight, my friend, because what Jamie's about to do to these people, they are everything they thought they knew
about their lives, it's about to be up for questions.
Um, but you get my point, but instead, so not the hype person, not even the,
Hey, you do that, I support you.
I can't wait to hear more, but instead it literally felt like their spouses
gave this audible sigh or gasp, turned their heads away so fast from the card
game that they were probably hoping there was a chiropractor at the party and then almost went out of their way or not even almost did go out of their way
to make sure that they that Alex and Jamie knew that they detested what they were doing.
Because to the emotionally immature, if we really want to break that down, this is actually probably where they were going to get some of their narcissistic supply later to take that one-up position on their spouse.
I can't believe you kept playing bridge. You left me alone the whole time. When in reality, their spouses were probably having a great time when they were out of view of Jamie and Alex.
And I want to acknowledge this can be a really difficult topic because I've had clients come into my office and they found themselves drawn or attracted to a bridge partner but not wanting to leave their marriage.
And in those cases, I can explore that with them. What is it about the bridge partner, for example,
that you are drawn to?
And is that because your relationship with your spouse lacks that component, and is this just something
that you don't know how to communicate, you weren't aware of, you guys didn't have the tools,
so you truly didn't know what you didn't know.
So let's say that with your bridge partner, that you love to text funny memes back and forth,
and they are the opposite spouse, and you start to feel guilty and bad about that.
But you come in, you talk to your therapist about it, and hopefully if your therapist knows what they're doing,
then they're gonna say, well, yeah, what are you finding fulfillment there? What is that like?
And so in that scenario, then that bridge partner is showing you
that you would like to have more playful interactions
within your relationships.
So you have a relationship with your spouse. So get the couples counseling,
get the right tools to be able to communicate or express that,
that I would like more playful energy in the home and or in our relationship.
And have your spouse be able to sit there and not go, oh, well, you're not very playful
or not go victim and go, I know, I'm super boring, but to be able to really hear you
and then explore their experience.
Maybe they wanted that as well, but they didn't know how to communicate that.
And so there's that healthy version of what that bridge character or bridge partner can do.
So that bridge partner, though, in an emotionally immature, narcissistic relationship
can sometimes lead to a deep emotional connection.
And I just want to put this out there because I know for a fact that many of the people that I've
worked with or are currently working with will even find themselves physically involved with
a bridge partner because in that process of feeling seen and heard and connected it can
often work right up the ladders of intimacy that I often talk about. They start to build verbal
intimacy. They talk to each other and they feel like this connection. They could talk to this
person forever unlike their spouse who doesn't want to talk to him at all. And then up from that
and that verbal intimacy leads emotional intimacy,
where once you feel connected verbally, then you feel like, oh man,
we can really just talk about everything. I can start to open up emotionally.
And on this ladder of intimacy, above that's cognitive and intellectual intimacy.
One person can be a PhD and the other have a GED, and that doesn't matter
because they're connected verbally and emotionally.
And above cognitive and intellectual intimacy, spiritual intimacy,
because you don't even have to be of the same faith if you feel this connection.
And then the byproduct of all of those is the physical intimacy.
So sometimes when somebody feels that much connection, They just, and it doesn't even have to be sex,
they just feel like they just wanna just grab that person, kiss that person, touch that person,
because they feel so seen and understood and heard.
And you can have people that have been the avoidant attachment in the relationship,
all of a sudden find themselves having that kind of a reaction to somebody outside of the relationship,
and they just thought, I'm just a non-feeling, non-caring, non-sexual being.
But then they feel seen and heard verbally, emotionally, cognitively, intellectually.
So, nobody, I still believe, gets into their marriage and says, I want to have an affair, or at least I've never, I've not seen that.
But I believe that things like affairs happen, both emotional and physical, because I'll just explore a couple of, I think, distinct reasons.
One, there could be, basically, somewhat of a diagnosable sexual compulsion, an impulse control disorder, sexual compulsiveness.
So, somebody could turn to a physical relationship as a way to get immediate gratification.
A coping mechanism, my Path Back Online Pornography Recovery group is about people who turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
The principles of my Path Back course can work with anything.
Food, phones, money, anything that you turn to as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
The habit cycle, the reasons we turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms are pretty similar.
So that's one reason why people turn to that. And then I want to take just a second even on that note and just talk about, because then people will often say, well, why did it get to that?
Why did it get to be a physical or human being?
And when we're talking about sexual compulsion or impulsivity, there's a concept called the Coolidge Effect that I think is really interesting.
And I'm not even throwing this out there as I've got a different angle with this, but there's a part of me that wonders if this concept of the Coolidge Effect is bigger, it's not just a thing around sex or relationships.
The Coolidge Effect, by definition, is this biological phenomenon that's been seen in many animals, including humans, that describes how males, sometimes females, show a renewed interest and excitement when they're introduced to a new potential mate.
Even if they previously showed signs of being tired or uninterested with their current partners.
So, imagine you're playing the same video game every day for months, and after a while you start to get bored.
And even if it was your favorite game, and then imagine a friend says, here's this brand new video game you never played before, and then you're excited and eager to play.
The Coolidge effect is kind of like that, but instead of video games, it's about...
Relationships and attraction. But that doesn't mean it's just,
well, what are you gonna do? Because it is something that when you're aware of it,
it can be dealt with or addressed or checked.
Like in the world of sexual addiction, the concept comes that in porn, for example,
if it's seen to the brain of the viewer, the porn is seen as a willing female.
So then the brain blasts out the dopamine receptors that theoretically get that new woman.
Actually, let me refer to, let me turn to an article that I've done a couple of podcast episodes on.
And I'll put this in the link, the show notes, but it's an article about a Harvard scientist
explains what porn does to your brain.
And it's Kevin Majerus, who's a psychiatrist in Harvard Medical School, talking about viewing
pornography as harmful.
But I think this is what's interesting. I'll just read a couple of paragraphs.
Scientists have discovered that if you place a male rat in a cage with a receptive female,
they will mate. But once done, the male rat will not mate more times, even if the female is still receptive.
He loses all sexual interest. But if right after he finishes with the first female, you put in a second receptive female,
and he will immediately mate again, and again, a third, and so on, until he nearly dies.
And this effect has been found in every animal studied, and this is what's called the Coolidge effect.
And so this is where we talk about pornography's power comes in the way it tricks the man's lower brain.
One of the drawbacks of this region is it can't tell the difference between an image and reality
so porn then offers a man an unlimited number of seemingly willing females.
And every time he sees the new partner, then it gears up his sex drive again,
and then he blasts his dopamine neuroreceptors get the girl and so here I'll pick this up here. It says dopamine is the drug of desire and when
you see something desirable your brain pours out dopamine saying go for it do whatever it takes.
Dopamine fixes your attention on that desirable object giving you power of concentration. So when
somebody clicks and sees a new pornographic image their lower brain thinks well this is the real
thing and this is the lady that I must win over with all my might. On the animal kingdom I must
puff up my feathers and plumage or I must beat my chest and I don't know throw my feces around.
I don't know if that's what they do that for.
But his lower brain then, yeah, thinks he has to win over this person.
And the dopamine flood in his upper brain causes a wild amount of electrical energy.
So then the first exposure to a new female who is a potential mate,
even if it wasn't a real mate, wasn't something that happened a lot.
I mean, it didn't happen to our ancestors.
So maybe once in your life, so the brain thinks this is a big deal.
And it doesn't know that now the game has completely changed,
and it doesn't understand that these are virtual females only.
So with each new one, it causes another flood of dopamine. And time after time, click after click, as long as he continues, it's a dopamine binge.
Majerus continues and says, this is why pornography causes a vicious cycle.
When somebody views porn, they get overstimulated by dopamine, so their brain destroys some
dopamine receptors, and this makes them feel depleted.
So they go back to porn, but having fewer dopamine receptors, this time it requires
more to get the same dopamine thrill.
But this causes the brain to destroy more receptors, so they feel an even greater need
for porn to stimulate.
So as guys keep gaming the dopamine system, they start to find that they have to use pornography
for longer and longer periods of time to have the same effect, and they have to visit more and more sites.
And then if the sites don't eventually cut it, then you have to stimulate another emotion,
fear, or disgust, or shock, or surprise.
So for porn use, people start to move to, in essence, kinkier things, or things that
make you afraid, or make you feel a bit sick, and you start experimenting with what Majerus
even said, various perversions.
And so that's where people can start to step outside of a relationship, and I hope you
you can see the difference there because they blasted those neuroreceptors for so long
that they have to do something scary or dangerous, which could be seeking an affair,
which then causes a tremendous amount of shame, which then the person hides.
And so it's so fascinating then to see that, especially in the world of emotional immaturity,
so you've got the pathologically kind person now all of a sudden who has found a connection with somebody
because they feel seen and heard,
but they feel like they've done the same thing, stepped outside of a relationship as maybe a spouse has done
who has a sexual compulsion or an addiction,
when that is a completely different mechanism in the brain.
But now the addict sees what the wife does, well, let's go husband-wife there,
with the husband's the more emotionally immature and the addict, but I can go either way.
And then now he has this, he can just use that against the wife.
Oh, well, you did the same thing, you had an affair.
But that's the part that from my chair, you can see it is so completely different
when somebody is really seeking that connection validation because they feel unheard and unseen,
versus somebody that's seeking sexual gratification and they do it to a point
where then they just need more and more and have to go outside of the relationship
to make it scary enough to hit the right dopamine receptors.
So there's the sex addict and then there's the person that feels starved for attention and affection that eventually when they find connection, they start working toward those levels of intimacy and then physical can often be the byproduct of all the other levels.
And what that shows or says is that you didn't feel safe or seen or validated in your marriage. And again, it is complicated and I understand that. Why? Because not every bridge partnership ends in a physical affair.
That alone has so many different variables that come into play whether or not somebody will eventually take that emotional connection physical
Because I can tell you I've worked with,
so many people that this is what we're talking about or working with who felt a strong connection to a bridge partner and
You would almost expect a few there They look central casting to the nefarious character in the movie that would have the affair and they don't and then I've also had the
people that you would never have guessed in a million years and
That they're literally having a physical relationship with somebody because it just seems so out of character for them,
because I go back to it's the first time any of us are going through life and we want to feel seen and understood and heard and we don't know what we don't know.
I just share that information because I think it will resonate with those who it will resonate with,
and there will be people that I would imagine will feel seen from what I'm talking about now.
Whether it's as an addict, so go take my Path Back Recovery course,
or from the person that's the pathologically kind that is now finding themselves connected to a bridge partner,
And there will probably also be people that will hear this and think I've lost all my marbles and that I'm essentially saying,
Hot take newsflash clickbait affairs are okay says marriage therapist, and I'm not saying that.
So if that's what you heard you might have missed something there along the way and I would rewind and see if you can pick
That up. Let's go to an email. This person was very clever I actually had to take a few things out of the email because they were going with this whole sleepless in Seattle thing
It was just it was pretty funny, but they said I'm a listener from Seattle and I'm finding your podcast helpful
Also, first, thank you.
I've recently come out of a relationship with somebody emotionally mature and narcissistic.
It's been tough because I always felt like I was the problem even though I was the one trying hard to make it work.
And now I'm trying to explore a new relationship with the person who was there for me during my awakening
to my ex's narcissism.
But we're struggling to communicate effectively now that we can and providing emotional safety
for each other is more difficult than we thought.
And so now I'm beginning to feel like I am the problem again
and that I'm just destined to hurt everybody in my life.
I just don't know how to move forward. Can you share some advice?
I did write the person back and just said, hey, thanks for sharing your experience
and you need to know that you are allowed to feel the way you do and the things that you want.
And the journey out of a relationship with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals
is difficult and it is common to continue to find yourself in a stage of self-blame.
But in situations like these, even those who have been there for you or played a specific role,
offering a safe harbor during difficult times, that's a normal thing.
But as you're stepping into a new role, independent, more self-aware,
allowed to express your thoughts and feelings and emotions, then it's natural that those relationships will change too.
I have a story that I wanna tell about Dick and Jane. I wanna tell that narrative.
But the more I even thought about this after I jotted down the notes was I thought,
and I thought I was being hilarious, but it's almost like you have a high school professor
that you always thought was amazing.
And they were your mentor, your role model, and you just thought,
this person's the coolest person I've ever talked to in my life.
And when I get out of high school, I bet we could hang.
And then you see them on a Saturday at Target, and they're in their shorts and they got dark socks
and they're wearing dress shoes.
And I don't know if they're buying something that I can't even think of a funny thing
that they're buying right now, but it's kind of weird.
And then you're like, hey, Mr. Johnson.
And then he's with his wife and she's, boy, is she not who you thought she would be.
And the kids, like that's a whole thing. And all of a sudden, Mr. Johnson does not look like a fun hang.
But you get him back in the classroom when he's telling you about Shakespeare
and you're like, this guy's got life figured out.
So in essence, he's there to help you through a difficult time.
You're not gonna be going and hanging out with him when you get out of high school.
And that's okay, because those, again, the relationships change and people are there
to help us through difficult situations.
Because that's that whole concept. Again, your feelings are valid,
it's part of your path toward growth and healing. And with the right tools and techniques,
even compatibility with somebody isn't guaranteed, and that's okay.
The right relationships or the healthy ones don't have to be as difficult as you've experienced.
And the people who play significant roles on your path to healing, again, these bridge partners,
don't have to be the final destination.
That said, it doesn't diminish their importance in your journey towards self-discovery
and healing and growth. So let me tell you a story
based off of another true story of Dick and Jane.
People like Jane, when they come out of relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals,
they often have a distorted perception of themselves.
So they might think over and over again, they're the problem when the relationships end,
even if they made all the effort, most of all the effort to keep things going.
And that we know is partly due to the manipulative tactic of things like gaslighting,
or where she's made to feel, question her reality and her sanity over and over again.
So now Jane is exploring a new relationship with Dick.
He is a significant person, but they're finding it hard to provide emotional safety
for each other because they didn't learn the tools for healthy connection in their past relationships.
And if you wanna go even further back, it's why they found themselves in the relationships that they were in.
They weren't modeled boundaries or feelings. Let me tell you this.
Well, they weren't welcomed feelings with curiosity when they were a child.
And this is an absolute bless your parents' hearts, including myself as a parent.
We were trying, we're trying our best because even a best case scenario,
this is what it could look like. Let's go best case scenario.
Your parents were together, you had financial resources, you went on vacations, you had a safe roof over your head,
you had food to eat in your tummy.
I think we're only now learning actually what a secure attachment even looks like with our kids.
So even a wonderful parent, when they see their kids struggle with emotions
going through difficult things, that makes the parent uncomfortable.
I will tell you that's parent rule 101. You don't like to see your kids suffer.
And that will bring out a lot of emotion in you. Am I a bad parent?
Or can I just fix this for them? Because then they'll love me more.
I'll get validation. But that's not always the best thing.
So when they see you see your kid hurting and you want to alleviate both your own discomfort
and their anxiety and how?
Well, let's see if we can manage our kids emotions with the with some of the greatest hits like, hey, champ, don't worry about it.
Or it's not a big deal. Or you won't remember these things when you're older.
Or let me tell you how I used to handle these things. I know exactly what you're going through,
which no one feels heard when that statement comes out of their mouths,
or those aren't good friends anyway, or never let them see you cry,
or hey, just calm down.
I mean, there are so, so many ways that we are taught and told and modeled,
that tell us that our emotions are not valid, they're not welcome,
and that quite frankly, we can't even trust our own gut instincts or emotions,
so voila, one finds himself going into a relationship
or a marriage still trying to manage your own emotions, your partner's emotions,
and it honestly starts to make so much sense as to why, I don't know, relationships basically
are pretty good until they're not.
Because it's almost like we're front-loading this happiness in relationships
because we know it's gonna get better later.
And then we let so many things go, we turn red flags into yellow, we ignore our gut instincts,
and we get rid of our own discomfort and emotions by a lot of different ways, playing small,
being a victim, withdrawing, until finally we've had enough, then we react big,
which then we feel bad about, the other person can use against us.
And so then we have to go and try and act like nothing happened because we don't even have the right tools
to self-confront or self-soothe.
And so we do the things like just ask the other person, hey, are we good?
And they're like, yeah, okay, we both feel better.
And I will say over and over again, The absence of bad does not mean good in a relationship.
Meanwhile, we don't even realize it until truthfully, we both get help.
That's the best case scenario, because we're both showing up inconsistent,
which is a huge reason why it feels so emotionally unstable in the relationships,
because emotional safety is about feeling secure and comfortable,
comfortable enough to express your own thoughts and feelings without the worry or fear of negative repercussions.
So back to Dick and Jane.
Jane's feelings are valid. It's normal to want what she desires.
And when people leave unhealthy relationships, that can affect their dynamics with others who have been supportive during that time.
So her relationships will start to evolve as she steps into a new empowered role.
So sometimes when we envision our relationships, what we envision is not going to pan out as
we had hoped because people and circumstances change over time and that's okay because
that's part of the human condition.
So this journey toward, I don't know, toward healthier relationships requires work and
adjustment. So compatibility with somebody that you have always assumed you would be compatible with
or you've dreamed about the day that you both will be fully free to explore your relationship isn't guaranteed.
Again, even with the right tools, and that's okay.
Healthy relationships ultimately don't need to feel like a giant uphill battle.
They're typically less strenuous when we're in a place where we both can give and receive love and just be and do.
So that is the concept of the bridge partner. To Jane in this scenario where I wanna say,
you are a wonderful person, you've worked incredibly hard to get where you are now,
And this truly is a journey of self-discovery and of healing and of growth.
I have a few things that I'd written down about why bridge partners.
More detailed explanation of the term.
And let me, I'll just blast through these. And if you wanna know more information, reach out to me
because I've got a handout that I'm putting together about that.
But the bridge partner, again, coming into your life during a transformative period,
often when you're struggling or in an unhealthy relationship they provide support and validation and understanding
and often a glimpse into a healthier relationship or life.
And they are not just a stepping stone, they're basically like a guiding hand or a mentor,
friends sometimes, like a lifeline.
And why the term bridge partner I think is so fitting is we got this bridge to self-discovery
to help you traverse the difficult terrain of a place of where you felt pain and confusion
to one now that you have more understanding and self-awareness.
They can help you facilitate your growth, recognize your worth and love that you deserve,
a bridge to emotional healing by somebody who is showing you respect and empathy and care.
They can aid in healing emotional wounds from an unhealthy relationship.
And they hopefully become a place where you can be yourself without judgment.
And I just had this thought, if you're the more emotionally immature partner
and you're listening and you made it to this far, then if you realize that, yeah, boy,
the way I've been acting is probably what has caused my spouse to probably be looking out for a bridge partner,
then well done, self-confront.
I mean, that's part of this waking up to one's own emotional immaturity or their own narcissism.
It can be a bridge to new beginnings. They connect you with a new phase of life or relationship.
All of a sudden, you wanna get bridge, take bridge courses or classes.
With the bridge partner's help or guidance, you can explore what it means to be loved
and respected and valued. They can be temporary, but vital.
Just like a bridge, their role is specific and temporary.
It kind of gets you from one place to another, but that doesn't make it less essential.
Well, you can't traverse a giant canyon if you have no bridge.
So it's a natural progression to help you continue on your journey.
And the bridge partner can be empowering because they don't carry you across.
They walk with you.
They empower you to take the steps yourself. And they help you realize that you're not just
deserving of better treatment or healthier relationships, but basically is more as a human being.
And finally, last not least, they offer human connection. The term bridge partner doesn't depersonalize the person.
I think that's why I needed to call it bridge partner instead of transactional figure.
But it celebrates that person's unique and essential role in somebody's life.
It's an honor to be a bridge partner, but it doesn't mean that you've done something wrong
if that person doesn't wanna be with you when you run into them in Target.
But I would check the socks and shoes, I'm not gonna lie. So the beauty then of this bridge partner
is that it can acknowledge that people can profoundly impact our lives,
without necessarily needing to remain in them forever.
But we want them to, because when they're this breath of fresh air,
we sure think that that's, I need this forever.
But they can be a stepping stone or somebody that can really profoundly again help your life.
They could be a companion for a season and guide you towards something greater
and their impact though can still be everlasting.
It's a concept in general that speaks to resilience, complexity, the beauty of transformation.
The beauty of the human experience. And it starts to help you recognize that you can have people in
your life that can bring you great joy and it can also bring you a lot of pain and sorrow when maybe
it's time to move on because that's more of what the journey of life is about. It's the ups and
the downs. Not trying to avoid having any downs and trying to just continually stay in the ups.
I hope that this helped and I would love your feedback. I would love to hear more about if
you're someone that this resonated with. If you are someone that is currently experiencing a
a relationship with a bridge partner, feel free to email me and I would love to hear your story
and know that I appreciate your story and I see you and I know this isn't the place you thought
you would see yourself, but I would love your stories and I'm happy to share them and make
them confidential and it's that concept where I think every story that's being shared on this
podcast sure helps other people. So have an amazing week and I will see you next time on
on waking up the nurse.
Music.