WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.800 Music. 00:00:06.796 --> 00:00:10.793 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 83 of Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:00:10.892 --> 00:00:13.809 I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, 00:00:14.241 --> 00:00:20.646 host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, Murder on the Couch Podcast, and yet another brand new podcast 00:00:20.646 --> 00:00:27.366 from the Virtual Couch Podcast Network called The Mind, The Mirror, and Me. It is a new podcast by 00:00:27.366 --> 00:00:33.846 my daughter, Mackie, and co-hosted by yours truly, and we have released the trailer. The first 00:00:33.846 --> 00:00:35.252 The first episode comes out later this week, 00:00:35.606 --> 00:00:38.586 so please go subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. 00:00:38.586 --> 00:00:39.925 I'll have a link in the show notes. 00:00:40.366 --> 00:00:44.777 But again, the trailer's up now, the first episode, which we've already recorded, and it is so good. 00:00:44.906 --> 00:00:49.766 Mackie is, she's a natural, and she was on the Virtual Couch podcast last week, 00:00:49.766 --> 00:00:52.966 and we talked about parenting older kids. If you haven't heard that one, 00:00:52.966 --> 00:00:54.454 I highly recommend you check that one out. 00:00:54.526 --> 00:00:59.081 But we also introduced a couple of concepts that I want to talk more about, 00:00:59.486 --> 00:01:03.546 holding this assertive frame, and assertive versus nurturing, 00:01:03.646 --> 00:01:07.546 and putting that in the context of parenting. So I would just highly encourage you 00:01:07.546 --> 00:01:08.786 to check out that episode. 00:01:08.903 --> 00:01:14.898 And if you like what you hear from Mackie and I together, then please go subscribe to The Mind, The Mirror, and Me. 00:01:15.466 --> 00:01:19.866 And please sign up to get the newsletter. My social media team at the EIA Agency 00:01:19.866 --> 00:01:22.946 and I met a few days ago, and there are some really big things that are happening, 00:01:23.186 --> 00:01:26.313 and they do have to do with this podcast in particular, as well as other things 00:01:26.706 --> 00:01:28.879 that I think will be shared via the newsletter. 00:01:29.066 --> 00:01:31.264 But let's start off today's episode. 00:01:31.586 --> 00:01:36.026 And I realized that if you saw the title already, then spoiler alert, you already know 00:01:36.026 --> 00:01:41.374 that we are going to share the fifth installment of Death by a Thousand Cuts, 00:01:41.706 --> 00:01:45.706 and these have been very special episodes because I feel like these are some of the first things 00:01:45.706 --> 00:01:49.026 that I would just continually jot down in my notes when I was meeting with clients 00:01:49.026 --> 00:01:53.473 and starting to deal with more emotional immaturity and narcissistic traits and tendencies, 00:01:53.626 --> 00:01:58.506 but just when people would start to describe things, and it's typically the pathologically kind person 00:01:58.506 --> 00:02:00.226 that is describing their experience, 00:02:00.423 --> 00:02:06.186 and they are things that don't sound like a huge deal all the time, but especially when they mention these 00:02:06.186 --> 00:02:10.466 to friends who say, well, there's bumps in every relationship, but I'm sure there's a lot 00:02:10.466 --> 00:02:14.043 of good things that he or she does, and so where people would just feel dismissed, 00:02:14.166 --> 00:02:17.311 where we start talking about those concepts like Switzerland friends. 00:02:17.386 --> 00:02:21.746 But the more that these things add up, then it really does feel like you are dying slowly 00:02:21.746 --> 00:02:28.666 by a thousand cuts and starting to bleed out over time, and it can feel overwhelming to try and put band-aids 00:02:28.666 --> 00:02:30.220 on a thousand different cuts on your body. 00:02:30.786 --> 00:02:37.494 So I wanna start off by reading a letter that was sent in by a listener and I think this will get the ball rolling. 00:02:37.546 --> 00:02:40.141 Dear Tony, I hope this email finds you well. 00:02:40.226 --> 00:02:44.186 My name is Emma, although that is not my real name and I felt compelled to reach out 00:02:44.186 --> 00:02:47.010 after delving deep into your podcast, waking up the narcissism. 00:02:47.568 --> 00:02:53.608 Your episode titled Death by a Thousand Cuts resonated with me so profoundly that I felt an immense need to share my story with you. 00:02:54.121 --> 00:02:57.398 Jake, also not his real name, and I have been together since high school. 00:02:57.497 --> 00:03:00.603 To the world, we were picture perfect, the epitome of young love. 00:03:00.738 --> 00:03:03.799 But in reality, our relationship has been anything but idyllic. 00:03:04.006 --> 00:03:08.471 Behind the scenes, we've been in a continuous cycle of emotional imbalance and strain. 00:03:08.903 --> 00:03:13.071 I became the perennial peacekeeper, always trying to placate Jake at every turn. 00:03:13.476 --> 00:03:16.195 Anytime he expressed displeasure, I'd internalize the blame. 00:03:16.600 --> 00:03:19.625 Hoping that my efforts would bring tranquility to the relationship. 00:03:20.066 --> 00:03:22.523 I would surprise him with gifts, I would plan unexpected dates, 00:03:22.965 --> 00:03:28.033 and a lot of times I would just agree to whatever he believed seemed to be my modus operandi. 00:03:28.582 --> 00:03:34.298 Jake conversely had a knack for evading responsibility. My concerns were often met with deflection or minimization. 00:03:34.298 --> 00:03:38.298 Phrases like, you're overreacting, or other couples have real problems, Emma. 00:03:38.728 --> 00:03:40.681 This is trivial, became all too familiar. 00:03:41.221 --> 00:03:45.524 This emotional dance left me perpetually anxious, and everything felt like a potential trigger. 00:03:45.929 --> 00:03:48.873 And I started questioning my sanity. Was I truly overreacting? 00:03:49.298 --> 00:03:53.158 Was I the root of our problems? Are these just things that are happening in every other relationship? 00:03:53.798 --> 00:03:57.929 So finally, in search of my answers and clarity, I began therapy. 00:03:58.038 --> 00:04:00.081 I had to tell him it was for something completely different. 00:04:00.678 --> 00:04:04.038 But it was there, thank goodness, that my therapist recommended your podcast, 00:04:04.038 --> 00:04:07.949 and I have to say, Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes were a revelation. 00:04:08.478 --> 00:04:12.603 The idea of enduring countless minor traumas, which might seem inconsequential to others, 00:04:13.134 --> 00:04:16.447 but are overwhelming to the one experiencing them, hit so close to home. 00:04:16.918 --> 00:04:20.768 At times I felt like I couldn't even listen anymore, and then there were times where all I wanted to do 00:04:20.840 --> 00:04:22.803 was listen to these episodes over and over. 00:04:23.433 --> 00:04:28.643 Starting to understand that I wasn't losing it, but rather caught in a relentless cycle of appeasing Jake while he shirked responsibility. 00:04:29.824 --> 00:04:31.976 Was groundbreaking my healing journey had just begun, 00:04:32.804 --> 00:04:37.243 Bolstered by the insights from your podcast. I'm learning to set boundaries and champion my own worth, 00:04:37.845 --> 00:04:43.823 Our relationship dynamics are I would say evolving and the path ahead absolutely remains uncertain, 00:04:44.264 --> 00:04:48.342 However, I am resolved that I will no longer be a victim of a thousand tiny cuts Tony, 00:04:49.043 --> 00:04:52.283 I share this with the hope that my story might resonate with others in a similar boat, 00:04:52.816 --> 00:04:54.283 Thank you for the invaluable work you're doing. 00:04:54.283 --> 00:04:57.704 Your podcast is not just enlightening, it's life-altering. Warm regards, Emma." 00:04:57.803 --> 00:05:02.071 So I just want to say that I see you, Emma, and I appreciate you sharing that email, 00:05:02.463 --> 00:05:04.563 and I know that you are on that journey. 00:05:04.563 --> 00:05:07.454 You went from, I didn't know what I didn't know, to now you know and you're doing, 00:05:07.922 --> 00:05:10.403 and that can be pretty frustrating, but eventually you're gonna be doing it 00:05:10.403 --> 00:05:15.763 more than you don't, and finally you will just become, and you will be and do the, 00:05:15.763 --> 00:05:18.443 you'll be the person that you've always wanted to be. 00:05:18.443 --> 00:05:22.983 So just for anyone new, or if you want a quick refresher, 00:05:22.983 --> 00:05:25.103 just the whole concept of death by 1,000 cuts 00:05:25.103 --> 00:05:31.663 is just talking about just numerous minor actions that over time, they'll wear down a person's self-confidence. 00:05:31.663 --> 00:05:36.054 They'll have you just really question who you are and what is your sense of purpose. 00:05:36.663 --> 00:05:42.851 And the individuals that are often affected by these actions are what I like to describe as the pathologically kind, 00:05:43.023 --> 00:05:47.793 that they are pretty consistent in their attempt to nurture and improve their relationship, 00:05:48.043 --> 00:05:51.963 mistakenly believing that both partners, that them and their spouse, 00:05:51.963 --> 00:05:56.867 that they both have mutual goals of self-improvement or understanding or mutual respect. 00:05:57.840 --> 00:06:04.490 But due to the emotional immaturity in their partner's behavior, these typically kind-hearted 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:09.530 individuals often feel, they feel their emotions and their feelings and all their experiences 00:06:09.530 --> 00:06:14.250 start to become more invalidated simply because they differ from their partners. 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:20.730 And I've done a number of episodes around everything from antagonistic attachment styles to 00:06:20.831 --> 00:06:24.570 just learning how to just be and watch, but unfortunately watch as the buttons get 00:06:24.648 --> 00:06:33.020 pressed bigger and bigger as you're starting to change the dynamic in your relationship. But I put the message out to my women's private Facebook group for. 00:06:33.530 --> 00:06:38.370 Some more examples because I think those are so powerful. But I also have been 00:06:38.370 --> 00:06:42.630 keeping some examples just from the emails that come in. So I think I have 00:06:42.630 --> 00:06:47.550 four or five of those and I put these in a little bit of narrative format. So let 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:49.930 me just share a few of those then I'll get to those examples from the private 00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:54.090 women's Facebook group. The first one I just had entitled movie night and every 00:06:54.090 --> 00:06:57.990 every Friday. We'll just call him Sarah and Alex have a tradition of watching 00:06:57.990 --> 00:07:05.350 movies together and Sarah is the one that wrote in and talked about loving romantic comedies. Alex preferred action films so every time that it was Sarah's 00:07:05.350 --> 00:07:09.590 turn to pick then Alex would just make little remarks about how sappy or how 00:07:09.590 --> 00:07:13.390 predictable her choices were. So she said that just over time she stopped 00:07:13.390 --> 00:07:17.350 suggesting movies altogether and she started just even believing that her own 00:07:17.350 --> 00:07:20.990 taste in movies were inferior or silly and what can be really strange about 00:07:20.990 --> 00:07:25.873 about this situation is that she said that Alex then just started to believe that she just liked 00:07:26.310 --> 00:07:29.870 the same movies that he did, because to her, it wasn't worth the fight. 00:07:29.990 --> 00:07:35.748 And I think that subtlety is what is so, can be so powerful about when you don't have a way 00:07:35.793 --> 00:07:38.764 to express yourself, even about these small, tiny cuts. 00:07:39.110 --> 00:07:43.121 Because I'll get a couple, like, let's just say, if Sarah and Alex come into counseling at some point, 00:07:43.510 --> 00:07:47.982 because Sarah's done, and then she mentions this, and Alex will say something to the effect of. 00:07:48.550 --> 00:07:49.390 Well, you should have told me. 00:07:49.390 --> 00:07:53.750 Why didn't you ever tell me? I had no idea, but then I know just looking over at Sarah 00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:58.065 in this situation, I would be able to just guess and or give her a voice and say, 00:07:58.550 --> 00:08:02.215 well, it's because of over time, she's tried to bring that up. 00:08:02.350 --> 00:08:06.824 But then when you say they're sappy or they're predictable, that she feels like, well, what's the point? 00:08:06.930 --> 00:08:09.588 Because you're gonna eventually just watch the kind of movie that you wanna watch anyway. 00:08:09.970 --> 00:08:13.009 But then if you're complaining, if Sarah's complaining about this to her friends, 00:08:13.390 --> 00:08:16.230 then her friends say, well, just tell him that you really wanna watch the movie. 00:08:16.230 --> 00:08:20.985 Or, well, I mean, they are a little bit predictable. And so people just stop losing their voice. 00:08:21.450 --> 00:08:26.070 So the next one is, it's about cooking, and it's one where the husband, 00:08:26.070 --> 00:08:30.302 I'm just gonna call him Liam, said that the more that he started to cook 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:35.514 in hopes of learning how to raise his emotional baseline because he had been frustrated a lot, 00:08:35.690 --> 00:08:40.690 that he had been listening to the Virtual Couch podcast and just really wanted to start doing things 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:41.730 that he really enjoyed. 00:08:41.730 --> 00:08:45.255 But the more he cooked, and he would try out these new recipes on his wife. 00:08:45.732 --> 00:08:50.467 He said that after they would eat, she would say, you know, it's not really as good as what my mom makes, 00:08:50.542 --> 00:08:55.481 or, well, I can tell you didn't use much of whatever this particular ingredient might have been. 00:08:55.598 --> 00:09:00.388 And so he said that while it started to seem like it was just this innocent comparison, 00:09:00.822 --> 00:09:03.439 that over time, he said it just became a recurring theme. 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:07.202 And so then he started to second guess, is it even worth it trying to cook? 00:09:07.622 --> 00:09:12.382 And eventually he just avoided cooking altogether. And what caused him to write in was he said 00:09:12.382 --> 00:09:16.782 that he had tried to bring it up and just said, hey, do you remember that when I used to try cooking 00:09:16.782 --> 00:09:20.402 and do you remember what your response was to which she just said, no, I don't. 00:09:20.402 --> 00:09:22.821 I don't really remember that at all. If you wanna cook, then you should just cook. 00:09:23.162 --> 00:09:30.167 So if you are a regular listener to this podcast, then I think you understand why that story is significant. 00:09:30.262 --> 00:09:35.163 But if somebody is just checking this podcast out and they've made it however many minutes this is in, 00:09:35.242 --> 00:09:38.282 at this point, I would imagine they're saying, just watch the movie you wanna watch 00:09:38.512 --> 00:09:39.682 or just cook if you wanna cook. 00:09:40.241 --> 00:09:43.962 But we know that it's not that simple when you're in a relationship with somebody 00:09:43.962 --> 00:09:47.762 that is incredibly emotionally immature, bordering on narcissistic traits, 00:09:47.762 --> 00:09:49.396 tendencies, or personality disorder. 00:09:49.562 --> 00:09:50.980 Another one is just about a new hobby. 00:09:51.322 --> 00:09:55.418 This is a woman that said that she started to take up painting during the lockdown, 00:09:55.522 --> 00:09:57.840 and she really was happy with her progress. 00:09:58.122 --> 00:10:04.484 She started showing her husband her artwork, and he didn't seem to show much interest at all. 00:10:04.682 --> 00:10:08.242 So finally she said, hey, what do you think? What do you think about the painting? 00:10:08.242 --> 00:10:12.703 To where he said, do you want me to be honest? Well, at least you're having fun. 00:10:13.242 --> 00:10:17.522 And she just said that that dismissive tone made her question her talent, 00:10:17.522 --> 00:10:19.602 made her question, is this even worth it? 00:10:19.602 --> 00:10:24.037 And she said that she really just started to show up different or play small in the relationship, 00:10:24.242 --> 00:10:27.962 but she really was finding that she loved painting. Now she's back to a point where she said 00:10:27.962 --> 00:10:31.869 that she is starting to paint, but she's not showing him what she's painting. 00:10:32.598 --> 00:10:46.389 There's another one where a wife talked about that she really enjoyed hosting gatherings. They had moved into a bigger house and part of she now believes the husband wanted the house. And so he said, when we move in there, you can finally host all these gatherings that you want to host. 00:10:46.911 --> 00:10:56.448 And so for their anniversary, she suggested a theme party to her husband. And then he just said, well, why complicate things? Just keep it simple. And as a matter of fact, I would rather just be with you anyway. 00:10:56.448 --> 00:11:01.648 Anyway. She would always value his opinion over her own, so she said that she just abandoned 00:11:01.648 --> 00:11:06.768 the idea. But she said that this was the pattern, that her creativity she felt like was frequently 00:11:06.768 --> 00:11:12.408 sidelined by his preference for simplicity, and so it just made her feel over time like 00:11:12.408 --> 00:11:17.288 her ideas were always just too much. But then meanwhile, she was helping with things at 00:11:17.288 --> 00:11:23.248 her kids' school and would get regular validation or just like a healthy praise from the work 00:11:23.248 --> 00:11:27.575 that she did there. And in those scenarios, her husband was very proud when they were 00:11:27.868 --> 00:11:32.968 out in public or at a back to school night. And then the last one, and then we'll get 00:11:32.968 --> 00:11:38.008 to the examples from the private Facebook group, is one of the, someone that wrote in, 00:11:38.008 --> 00:11:42.328 a guy wrote in and said that he started really, when he went into therapy, started to uncover 00:11:42.328 --> 00:11:46.948 some stories from his childhood. And so he said he started to share those with his wife, 00:11:47.408 --> 00:11:51.488 but instead of listening, she would just interject with their own stories. And he said that she 00:11:51.488 --> 00:11:54.311 he would continually say things like, oh, that reminds me of when I, 00:11:54.488 --> 00:11:56.148 without ever acknowledging his stories. 00:11:56.288 --> 00:12:01.388 And then over time, then he started to feel like his experiences weren't as interesting or as valid as hers. 00:12:01.388 --> 00:12:05.357 And so he started to again, keep them to himself. And it wasn't like then she started saying, 00:12:05.828 --> 00:12:08.031 hey, you never finished those stories that you were telling me about. 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:12.829 And why I appreciate that one so much is it can sound just so benign, 00:12:13.288 --> 00:12:18.728 but here's a situation where this person wanted to start talking more to his spouse 00:12:18.728 --> 00:12:20.301 about these things that he was discovering. 00:12:20.728 --> 00:12:27.608 And he wrote me, in part of the email, he said, am I crazy to think that, am I being narcissistic 00:12:27.608 --> 00:12:31.662 in saying that I wanted her to take interest in the things that I was sharing? 00:12:32.048 --> 00:12:42.448 And absolutely not. This is the part where I feel like we are all worthy of these shared experiences and just mutual curiosity 00:12:42.448 --> 00:12:43.368 in our relationships. 00:12:43.368 --> 00:12:46.056 And when that doesn't happen, that doesn't mean that something is wrong with you, 00:12:46.408 --> 00:12:53.456 but it may mean that your partner is unaware or maybe incapable of being able to just keep the focus, 00:12:54.368 --> 00:12:58.786 on you, because if we go back to that antagonistic attachment style from a narcissist, 00:12:59.290 --> 00:13:01.288 that it is this zero-sum game. 00:13:01.486 --> 00:13:05.267 So if you are talking about your story, then that means to the emotionally immature person, 00:13:05.688 --> 00:13:08.488 that then they think that you must not think that their stories are very important. 00:13:08.488 --> 00:13:12.181 So now they need to tell their stories, because their stories are much more important. 00:13:13.063 --> 00:13:25.113 So, in each one of these narratives, though, the pathologically kind partner, they try to share a piece of themselves only to have their more emotionally immature partner diminish or dismiss their feelings or their experiences. 00:13:25.113 --> 00:13:35.233 And then over time, these just consistent, subtle, I don't know, what are they, jabs kind of erode their confidence and their sense of self-worth and their sense of purpose. 00:13:35.353 --> 00:13:41.233 And so then the people just go back into this playing small in their relationship and then 00:13:41.233 --> 00:13:47.073 they resume this role of just well I guess I can just try to keep the peace which is just not what 00:13:47.073 --> 00:13:52.273 we're here to do and it doesn't make those around you but it doesn't it's not the way to show up 00:13:52.273 --> 00:13:56.513 for yourself either so here's what I posted in the women's facebook group I said okay we have a lot 00:13:56.513 --> 00:14:02.113 of new people since death by a thousand cuts four was released and it seems that with my current I 00:14:02.113 --> 00:14:06.073 I said my current at the time is that my current fascination with chat GPT and how you can 00:14:06.073 --> 00:14:10.993 take anything and turn it into a poem, a haiku, or a musical that perhaps it is time for death 00:14:11.083 --> 00:14:15.313 by a thousand cuts, volume five, the musical, a little tongue in cheek, but I said, I may 00:14:15.313 --> 00:14:21.993 turn one into a song to the tune of you are so vain just in the intro, which I chose not to do. 00:14:21.993 --> 00:14:26.113 You are welcome. But with that said, I would love anybody's examples as well as the making sure that everything's 00:14:26.113 --> 00:14:28.233 okay to share in an episode. 00:14:28.233 --> 00:14:31.133 And I just mentioned that these episodes are the ones that really resonate with people. 00:14:31.133 --> 00:14:35.479 So everything that I'm going to share has been given the okay to share in an episode 00:14:35.803 --> 00:14:39.493 and some of the things have been changed a little bit here and there just to make things 00:14:39.493 --> 00:14:41.240 more understandable or put them in context. 00:14:41.813 --> 00:14:45.580 So the first few people I think took me serious and thought I was going to do something to 00:14:45.733 --> 00:14:46.912 the song You're So Vain. 00:14:47.413 --> 00:14:51.013 So the first one said, You're so vain, you spend your days preparing a very cool costume 00:14:51.013 --> 00:14:52.772 for yourself, for the work party. 00:14:53.349 --> 00:14:59.506 While refusing to lift a finger to help your ex-wife prepare a huge obligatory celebration for your son. 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:03.599 But then later, you do give her flowers as a band-aid to her wound to make sure that 00:15:03.599 --> 00:15:06.456 she will go bike riding with you whenever you want to do that the next time. 00:15:07.023 --> 00:15:13.079 She said, isn't that great how that works out well for you? And just for any new listeners, the context, I don't think that she means that literally 00:15:13.079 --> 00:15:20.039 go bike riding, but here was a situation where they had a, they have a son together and there's 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.999 a very large thing happening that they needed to spend a lot of time to put together a celebration 00:15:24.999 --> 00:15:32.919 for and he, the husband, left it all on the now ex-wife to take care of the celebration 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:37.010 so that he could spend days preparing a very cool costume for a work party. 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:42.039 And so then when he felt bad about it, he gave her flowers to, in that case, ease his 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:47.879 own discomfort or anxiety because he's subconsciously maybe sure that there are going to be plenty 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.612 of other things that he is not gonna wanna do in the future. 00:15:50.729 --> 00:15:54.915 And if she'll continue to take that role of taking care of everybody and taking care of things, 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.239 then he'll be able to keep preparing cool costumes for the after work parties 00:15:59.239 --> 00:16:00.893 that will be coming up in the future. 00:16:01.217 --> 00:16:05.151 Another one said somebody was heading to a family, an extended family function, 00:16:05.601 --> 00:16:09.409 and she said that she told her spouse, everybody's ordering pizza for dinner, 00:16:09.787 --> 00:16:10.723 what do you want on yours? 00:16:10.859 --> 00:16:15.521 And he said, very haughtily, which I love that word, he said, I'm not eating pizza. 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.419 So she said, I went about ordering the pizza for everybody else, and when we arrived 00:16:19.419 --> 00:16:24.119 and he only saw pizza to eat, surprise, he got really angry and yelled at me 00:16:24.119 --> 00:16:26.522 in front of my entire family, just, you're unbelievable. 00:16:26.719 --> 00:16:31.050 Apparently I was supposed to read his mind and know that when he said he didn't want pizza, 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:36.262 I was then supposed to sort something else out specifically for him and know that then, 00:16:36.479 --> 00:16:40.313 even though he didn't want it now, that he would want it later, and what he would then want 00:16:40.479 --> 00:16:42.393 when he finally realized that he wanted pizza. 00:16:43.479 --> 00:16:48.159 Another one people talked about, walking ahead, And I know we've addressed this in previous episodes, 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.519 but I get, this is one of those where I just get so, I get a lot of emails about this is something 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.139 that people didn't realize was more of an emotionally immature, narcissistic trait. 00:16:56.319 --> 00:16:58.519 So she said, another one, the walking ahead of me and the kids. 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.459 He walks so far ahead that when anyone has to stop to tie a shoe, he doesn't even notice. 00:17:02.599 --> 00:17:05.025 He keeps walking off into the distance and disappears. 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.968 She said, I would be at the mall with little toddlers he would just walk ahead and leave us. 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:14.009 Now, why the walking ahead? And this is where I really do want to have a wheel, 00:17:14.009 --> 00:17:17.142 spin the wheel of narcissism, because it's emotionally immature, 00:17:17.209 --> 00:17:20.266 but it could be for a variety of reasons, which I like to now coin the, 00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:21.679 oh, there it is, that's the reason. 00:17:21.969 --> 00:17:28.569 So whether it is a, he wants to do something different, or I am gonna show everybody else that they are being lazy 00:17:28.569 --> 00:17:33.009 and they aren't as efficient as I am, or he doesn't want to have to deal with the crying 00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:36.218 of the toddlers, or, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons, 00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:40.071 but none of them are the, oh my gosh, I am so sorry, I didn't realize I was walking ahead, 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.573 and let me get back and help out. 00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:49.769 Because if that was the thing that he really felt, then it would not be a consistent pattern 00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:54.681 because it would be something that he was willing to self-confront and grow and deal with and work with. 00:17:54.749 --> 00:17:59.119 And these are those times where I have to pull out my own formerly emotionally immature card 00:17:59.191 --> 00:18:04.069 and say that I remember those times where I felt like we've got to get to this place by a certain time. 00:18:04.069 --> 00:18:08.149 If I was at a park or something like that and almost feeling, hey, that's my job 00:18:08.149 --> 00:18:12.037 is to get us there in time, but that's a me issue. 00:18:12.449 --> 00:18:18.249 And so when you really sit and self-confront, then you don't realize how controlling that is, 00:18:18.249 --> 00:18:20.212 where you're just saying, no, this is what I want. 00:18:20.329 --> 00:18:24.289 I wanna get to this place at a particular time, and I'm gonna do it, whether you guys 00:18:24.524 --> 00:18:29.394 are coming along or not, almost as if that is, I don't know, gonna motivate the people to hurry up. 00:18:29.889 --> 00:18:34.569 But here's the thing, people are just doing the best that they can, especially when there's kids. 00:18:34.569 --> 00:18:39.229 And this is one where I am very happy, and hopefully this isn't me confabulating a narrative, 00:18:39.229 --> 00:18:42.384 but this is something that was discovered a long time ago, 00:18:42.789 --> 00:18:46.489 so that, and then you can actually swing the pendulum all the way to the other side, 00:18:47.020 --> 00:18:51.657 where if we were traveling in a car, then it was, hey, we will stop 900 times if we need to, 00:18:52.149 --> 00:18:55.375 because I would rather do that and over accommodate 00:18:55.549 --> 00:18:58.949 than be the person that just feels like, no, we're doing it the way I'm doing it 00:18:58.949 --> 00:19:02.389 because I'm the one driving, or I'm the one that paid for us to come to Disneyland 00:19:02.389 --> 00:19:03.179 or whatever that looks like. 00:19:03.749 --> 00:19:06.889 So you start seeing a lot of these about the people that are just walking ahead 00:19:07.014 --> 00:19:09.994 or keeping or staying ahead or leaving without those kind of things. 00:19:10.624 --> 00:19:14.387 In this, this person that had just shared the one about people her husband walking had also said, 00:19:14.918 --> 00:19:18.672 bought one child a bike for no special reason and didn't get one for one of our other children. 00:19:19.041 --> 00:19:23.194 When I asked why he did this, because it was hurtful, he said it was all because the other 00:19:23.194 --> 00:19:27.274 child wasn't showing enough interest in him that week and wasn't very appreciative. So she said, 00:19:27.274 --> 00:19:32.474 unfortunately, the kids then learned that love always has its conditions. Now someone else then 00:19:32.474 --> 00:19:36.794 chimed in and said, Oh, your walking story just brought a flood of memories. I've always been a 00:19:36.794 --> 00:19:41.534 fast walker, but my husband used to tease me and get irritated by this when it was 00:19:41.534 --> 00:19:45.074 something that irritated him. At some point though, there was a turn. She said 00:19:45.074 --> 00:19:49.654 Disneyland trips left me holding the kids' hands and him darting through the 00:19:49.654 --> 00:19:53.294 crowds only to be annoyed that we weren't keeping up. And she said he seems 00:19:53.294 --> 00:19:57.914 to walk extra fast whenever I'm in heels. And she said because I thought I might 00:19:57.914 --> 00:20:01.234 be imagining it, I did an experiment where we had a quarter-mile walk 00:20:01.307 --> 00:20:05.394 together. I decided no matter what, I would walk by his side. And she said it 00:20:05.394 --> 00:20:07.032 proved to be extremely challenging. 00:20:07.154 --> 00:20:10.291 Our pace never steadied for a second, just slowing, then speeding up, 00:20:10.474 --> 00:20:11.993 then slowing, and then speeding up. 00:20:12.594 --> 00:20:15.634 She said, I couldn't help but wonder, what was he thinking as he was probably 00:20:15.634 --> 00:20:18.033 having to work as hard to try to get away from me? 00:20:18.154 --> 00:20:23.543 And this is one that we're gonna talk about in future episodes, and it is the concept of keeping score, 00:20:23.914 --> 00:20:29.565 that we're told continually we should not keep score, but I really believe that at times 00:20:29.634 --> 00:20:31.924 that keeping score is for your own sanity. 00:20:32.414 --> 00:20:37.314 Not to say, see, look, Mr. or Mrs. Narcissist, I do actually tell you that I love you, 00:20:37.314 --> 00:20:42.534 or I do help out with the kids, or I'm keeping track and you did vary your pace, 00:20:42.534 --> 00:20:45.094 because we're still assuming that if I showed that 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:51.000 to the narcissistic partner, that they are now going, that's the thing, that'll give them the aha moment the epiphany. 00:20:51.936 --> 00:21:11.219 I'm starting to recognize and there's a wonderful thread in the Facebook group about this of that the don't keep score is almost at times in an emotionally immature narcissistic relationship has been used as a tool to say, hey, don't track what I'm doing because I'm being pretty darn inconsistent because I'm emotionally immature and I need this one up. I need to be able to have this leg up on you. I'm not going to be consistent. 00:21:12.092 --> 00:21:14.702 And of course, they're not saying that overtly, 00:21:15.261 --> 00:21:17.439 but that's what's happening from a covert standpoint. 00:21:17.906 --> 00:21:22.994 And so keeping score to know that, hey, I do say I'm sorry, I do follow through, 00:21:23.106 --> 00:21:26.009 I do keep my word, just for your own sanity. 00:21:26.286 --> 00:21:30.105 And once again, and I promised myself earlier that I wouldn't keep going back to the, 00:21:30.187 --> 00:21:34.646 and for those who are listening to this podcast, we'll understand, but I think that that is something 00:21:34.646 --> 00:21:37.766 where if somebody is just sitting in their healthy ego, 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.376 their calm, confident self, and they are emotionally mature, 00:21:41.826 --> 00:21:45.066 and somebody is telling them that, well, you don't do the right thing, 00:21:45.066 --> 00:21:48.186 or you should do it this way, that person doesn't even, they're thinking, 00:21:48.186 --> 00:21:49.109 hey, that's a you problem. 00:21:49.786 --> 00:21:54.312 But so, the keeping score thing is almost a way to start to prove to yourself 00:21:54.426 --> 00:21:56.401 that you are that consistent person. 00:21:56.806 --> 00:22:00.344 You are somebody that shows up and says the things that you mean, 00:22:00.749 --> 00:22:03.206 and you follow through on things, and that can be really helpful, 00:22:03.206 --> 00:22:07.466 because sometimes people just go from the, am I crazy, to then they want to point out, 00:22:07.466 --> 00:22:09.148 look, I've done this this many times, 00:22:09.626 --> 00:22:13.757 but that just becomes fuel when you're feeding an emotionally immature narcissistic individual. 00:22:14.186 --> 00:22:18.078 But when it can be something that will help you keep your sanity, then that can be very, very powerful. 00:22:18.666 --> 00:22:21.506 Somebody else then chimed in and when they were seeing these things, 00:22:22.030 --> 00:22:24.326 about the narcissist walking quickly through Disneyland, 00:22:24.326 --> 00:22:28.098 and they said a narcissistic mental as well as physical obstacle course, 00:22:28.546 --> 00:22:29.701 which is so well said. 00:22:30.226 --> 00:22:33.066 She said, I was blown away when I found out that always walking ahead of a person 00:22:33.066 --> 00:22:34.454 was also a narcissistic trait. 00:22:35.228 --> 00:22:38.878 Some other examples, this is another person said, I was walking into the dark bedroom 00:22:38.878 --> 00:22:40.314 and I tripped over and fell over the dog. 00:22:40.917 --> 00:22:44.392 He wasn't laying in his usual spot. And she said, I fell hard onto the floor. 00:22:44.878 --> 00:22:47.570 And instead of asking if I was okay or getting out of the bed to help me, 00:22:47.975 --> 00:22:49.884 he screamed, gosh, what is wrong with you? 00:22:50.158 --> 00:22:54.918 Like, how could I be so stupid to trip and fall down? And again, breaks my heart. 00:22:54.918 --> 00:23:00.958 And these are some of the stories that you hear about people that heard a spouse just retching 00:23:00.958 --> 00:23:05.025 or in pain at night, hovering over a toilet bowl, throwing up, 00:23:05.138 --> 00:23:08.898 and the spouse just put their head under the pillow because they had a rough day 00:23:08.898 --> 00:23:10.337 for ahead of them the next day. 00:23:11.378 --> 00:23:15.858 She said, and speaking of that dog, the same dog stole the dusting wand from my daughter's hand 00:23:15.858 --> 00:23:18.448 and he screamed at her, gosh, you are such a disappointment 00:23:18.718 --> 00:23:21.193 when screaming that to the daughter, not the dog. 00:23:22.058 --> 00:23:25.198 She said that he'll travel for his job for a couple of weeks, comes home, 00:23:25.198 --> 00:23:30.988 doesn't even acknowledge her or the kids, not even hi, and she said, yep, the dog gets a hug and a kiss. 00:23:31.138 --> 00:23:34.841 She said, I definitely see a theme here with the dog getting better treatment. 00:23:35.264 --> 00:23:39.578 And I'll just put a quick pause on that as well. There's some threads going around in the group 00:23:39.578 --> 00:23:44.725 about what is it with animals, because sometimes that can be the unconditional love of an animal, 00:23:45.013 --> 00:23:47.444 and other times that can be the displaced anger toward the animal. 00:23:47.822 --> 00:23:49.803 And actually, I think it ends up being both. 00:23:50.218 --> 00:23:54.070 And if you go back to that episode that I did on intermittent reinforcement, 00:23:54.578 --> 00:23:58.438 that one of the ways that you, unfortunately the ways that people train dogs 00:23:58.438 --> 00:24:01.145 is they are the punisher and the offerer of the reward. 00:24:01.658 --> 00:24:05.467 So then when they want that dog to love them, that dog is ready to love them. 00:24:05.566 --> 00:24:08.842 And when they are frustrated, then unfortunately they often take it out on the animal. 00:24:09.278 --> 00:24:13.290 So it's just another, I feel like it's a trait of the, it can be of the emotionally immature. 00:24:14.398 --> 00:24:17.953 Oh, on that note, okay. So then she said, he leaves home the same way. 00:24:18.278 --> 00:24:20.860 So ignoring people, but saying goodbye to the dog. 00:24:21.275 --> 00:24:25.893 And she said, I've discussed with the kids that this isn't normal behavior and that they haven't done anything wrong, 00:24:26.278 --> 00:24:29.138 that this is more of a dad issue, not anything that they've done, 00:24:29.138 --> 00:24:33.005 because she said it's soul-destroying to me to watch the way that they react 00:24:33.218 --> 00:24:35.624 when he doesn't acknowledge him coming home or leaving. 00:24:36.542 --> 00:24:41.432 Another one, this is a woman who said that her husband called her by his ex-wife's name as she 00:24:41.432 --> 00:24:45.832 was in labor with their daughter. She said it was the biggest, most meaningful day of her life, 00:24:45.832 --> 00:24:50.232 and he managed to take a slice out of me during that time. And she said maybe what was even more 00:24:50.232 --> 00:24:54.115 difficult is when I wanted to discuss it afterward, he said, I don't remember saying that. I don't 00:24:54.232 --> 00:24:57.912 think I said that. She said, one might say that it was a slip of the tongue, but she said, I just 00:24:57.912 --> 00:25:01.832 feel like I know better. And I think that one's really difficult because if there was a pattern 00:25:01.832 --> 00:25:06.312 of the person, the husband in that scenario of owning up and apologizing for things, 00:25:06.745 --> 00:25:10.392 then if it would have been a slip of the tongue, then man, I can only imagine if he would have 00:25:10.392 --> 00:25:14.472 said, I am so sorry. Like that, that was, I am so sorry. That is the last thing that I meant to do. 00:25:15.297 --> 00:25:19.960 But instead, when this becomes that big story or the big question about confabulation is, 00:25:20.072 --> 00:25:24.312 does his mind just immediately confabulate in real time so that it couldn't have been him that said 00:25:24.312 --> 00:25:28.035 that because that would have meant that he did something wrong at this really important time for 00:25:28.232 --> 00:25:32.872 her. This one's one that comes up often too that I find very interesting. This is where somebody 00:25:32.872 --> 00:25:36.072 just said, compliments that I've received from him have all been in public settings and sometimes 00:25:36.072 --> 00:25:40.072 even feel contradictory to comments made to me privately. And I think this one's going to 00:25:40.072 --> 00:25:44.792 resonate for people that are listening. And I would love, and again, I want your examples, 00:25:44.792 --> 00:25:48.712 please send in your examples of the death by a thousand cuts, because I think these episodes do, 00:25:49.326 --> 00:25:53.080 better than even most. And because I think they just speak to people that people don't 00:25:53.287 --> 00:26:02.343 feel like they are crazy, even though some of these examples seem so small in comparison to some of the things that you hear about when you hear about narcissistic abuse. 00:26:03.072 --> 00:26:08.632 But she said, OK, compliments I've received from him have all been in public settings, and sometimes I feel contradictory to comments made to me privately. 00:26:08.632 --> 00:26:13.512 I think the compliment is actually about how it makes him look for giving it and leaves me feeling used. 00:26:13.512 --> 00:26:19.780 And that's just, well, spot on how it makes him look when he's saying in front of somebody else, man, doesn't she do amazing work? 00:26:19.832 --> 00:26:20.952 Isn't she wonderful? 00:26:21.023 --> 00:26:23.672 I just think she's beautiful and I just love everything about her. 00:26:24.201 --> 00:26:31.512 But are those happening when there aren't other people around?" Another person said that when they found out that their high school student was failing 00:26:31.512 --> 00:26:36.692 classes at school, and she said, I was helping our student make a plan. 00:26:36.692 --> 00:26:41.432 My husband's reaction was, and she said the quote's so important here, have we not been 00:26:41.432 --> 00:26:43.123 talking to their teacher? 00:26:43.752 --> 00:26:45.500 And have we not been checking their grades? 00:26:46.152 --> 00:26:50.091 And then they said, Hey, I am sorry to their kid that we have failed you when you needed help. 00:26:50.832 --> 00:26:55.618 She said, since I'm the only one that handles school, and I've been working with our kids' teachers 00:26:55.754 --> 00:27:00.210 and their ADD since third grade, it's clear that we means me. 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:05.062 Now in the same thread, they also mentioned that he hardly ever uses or wears a gift that I give him. 00:27:05.476 --> 00:27:08.912 And she talked about, I make several fresh foods that are almost always in the fridge 00:27:08.912 --> 00:27:10.715 and my grown children love to visit home for. 00:27:11.102 --> 00:27:14.252 Applesauce from the apple trees, OJ and lemonade from the citrus trees, 00:27:14.252 --> 00:27:16.756 homemade yogurt, fresh salsa, refried beans from scratch. 00:27:17.377 --> 00:27:21.392 But she said, my husband has made it a point not to eat them and has never even tried some of them, 00:27:21.392 --> 00:27:23.454 and he buys his own salsa and yogurt at the store. 00:27:24.432 --> 00:27:28.540 And I wanna just continue down the list here, but we're gonna talk about food here in just a second. 00:27:28.872 --> 00:27:33.352 And I also, we could do another episode on the not using the things that are given 00:27:33.352 --> 00:27:34.589 or the gifts that are given to them. 00:27:35.309 --> 00:27:37.519 This same person said, anytime I bring up a concern, 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.729 I feel like I am lectured then about how I brought it up. 00:27:40.180 --> 00:27:45.339 That sometimes I don't bring it up with enough confidence. Other times I bring it up and I'm being passive aggressive. 00:27:45.339 --> 00:27:47.453 Sometimes I need to bring it up and be nicer. 00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:51.414 Sometimes I need to bring it up and be more forceful. So there's never a good way to bring something up. 00:27:51.901 --> 00:27:56.239 Because in that moment, I am bringing up something, this is my take, in that moment, 00:27:56.239 --> 00:27:59.399 she is bringing up something that then is going to be uncomfortable. 00:27:59.399 --> 00:28:05.039 And that is that sign of the emotional immaturity of the husband in this situation is that he is a master. 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:11.839 Deflecting that discomfort and a master of then being able to take a quick, take quick control of 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.759 the conversation by saying, hey, you didn't present that the right way. So, I'm not even 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:20.319 sure what I'm supposed to do with that because it's about criticism or something that he does 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:27.279 not want to hear. Oh, and back to this example with the kid in school, someone else chimed in 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:32.479 and said, oh yes, all the we statements and not eating any of the stuff I cook, it gets, yeah, 00:28:32.479 --> 00:28:34.274 yet he gets really irritated if I don't cook. 00:28:34.379 --> 00:28:35.661 Truly crazy making stuff. 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.419 Someone else chimed in and said, my husband never eats my food either. 00:28:38.419 --> 00:28:42.655 I thought it was just me. And then someone else said the food thing. 00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:46.868 So during the divorce, I offered him most of the food storage and he said he would only take everything, 00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:51.439 or he would take everything except for the things that I had canned myself because he said that stuff 00:28:51.439 --> 00:28:55.637 wasn't any good and he would only feed it to the neighbor's pigs like he had always done. 00:28:55.919 --> 00:29:00.599 Food, we're gonna talk about this. I'm gonna try to blast through a article by Christine Hammond 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:02.559 that talks about narcissists and food. 00:29:02.719 --> 00:29:07.359 And so to set that up though, I do wanna give this example. This person just said this so well. 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:12.318 She said, my husband gets this zoned out look on his face around food before and during eating 00:29:12.579 --> 00:29:14.532 that it almost looks like he's on a high. 00:29:14.999 --> 00:29:18.499 She said, this isn't all meals. This would be a meal that he presumes is really good 00:29:18.499 --> 00:29:19.718 or whenever we get restaurant food. 00:29:20.199 --> 00:29:22.616 There is no conversation with him. You cannot touch his food, 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.119 but he will sneakily help himself to yours, especially when the kids were really little. 00:29:26.749 --> 00:29:34.031 Now they will put up a fight. No one wants to have a shareable food with him like popcorn or chips or naan bread in an Indian restaurant. 00:29:34.427 --> 00:29:39.811 And if you're watching a movie, he'll come for the food and then shortly leave right after it's eaten. He'll go right back to his room. 00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:43.889 Then he takes more than his share and he says, well, I'm bigger. I need more. Or I pay for all of this. 00:29:44.726 --> 00:29:54.799 And she said, am I crazy to think that a workaround would be for somebody responsible, somebody who's going to be fair in the distribution to, let's just say, open up a chip bag and then get out however many bowls of people are around and separate it out evenly? 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.158 Or make sure and ask, does anybody else want these? 00:29:57.896 --> 00:30:01.722 She said then her daughter or her son could then eat it slow, save it. 00:30:02.199 --> 00:30:05.719 That then they're not gonna be taught that man, you have to just grab what you wanna grab 00:30:05.719 --> 00:30:09.679 and then you have to consume it quickly or dad's gonna eat it or he'll bug you. 00:30:09.679 --> 00:30:10.589 Hey, are you gonna eat all that? 00:30:11.159 --> 00:30:13.992 She said people cover their food and they start to get mad at him. 00:30:14.505 --> 00:30:17.919 And if you're not looking, then he sneaks the chip and if he gets caught, he'll laugh and make light of it 00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:19.160 and say, oh, you had more than me. 00:30:19.808 --> 00:30:24.679 But she said it's made mealtimes in general just so uncomfortable with him to the point where she said, 00:30:24.679 --> 00:30:28.153 we really haven't sat down and had a family meal for a very, very long time. 00:30:28.882 --> 00:30:32.199 So I love that example because there's just so many things there around food 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:37.219 that broken down individually, people would maybe say, that doesn't sound crazy. 00:30:37.219 --> 00:30:41.791 Oh yeah, we do that sometimes too. Or my son will have popcorn and my husband will grab it. 00:30:41.917 --> 00:30:48.039 But if it is an issue, then it needs to be addressed. And then this isn't about the scenario 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.759 of the husband and his need to, I am bigger, I earn more money, 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.546 so therefore I am teaching this lesson to my kids that their needs are not significant. 00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:59.949 That once I have met my needs, then they can fall in line behind. 00:31:00.291 --> 00:31:03.406 And that is not the way to develop a secure attachment with your kids. 00:31:03.959 --> 00:31:06.759 Somebody else then just said, this was back to the you're so vain reference, 00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:08.679 you're so vain, and this one breaks my heart. 00:31:08.679 --> 00:31:12.426 She said throwing a plate of food and then saying that this is disgusting, this is icky, 00:31:12.919 --> 00:31:17.939 and then wants me to then get down and clean it up and then just almost beg for forgiveness 00:31:17.939 --> 00:31:19.079 for not making edible food. 00:31:20.015 --> 00:31:31.844 And then I apologized at that point. I said, I apologized for the opening in my, in the Facebook group, and I said, where I encouraged people to post and maybe I was using a little bit too much humor, but I appreciate what she said. She said, I now find humor in it. 00:31:32.033 --> 00:31:43.865 She said, I'm away from the situation and I'm doing great. And I look back at all the BS I went through with him and I laugh at a majority of it because I can't believe an adult can act the way that these narcissists or emotionally immature people do. 00:31:44.591 --> 00:31:47.685 She said, I feel bad for the women and men who are still in the trenches because they 00:31:47.685 --> 00:31:48.939 deserve so much better. 00:31:49.505 --> 00:31:52.729 And it's something that they don't even know what they don't know about what they deserve. 00:31:53.864 --> 00:31:56.465 Yeah, there's a there's a food there's a food context in this. 00:31:56.465 --> 00:31:59.760 This is a woman who shared some of her journal entry and then I will get to the food article, 00:32:00.453 --> 00:32:02.272 that Christine Hammond shared and then we'll wrap things up. 00:32:03.225 --> 00:32:07.625 So she was talking about her journal and she had shared another experience or two earlier 00:32:07.625 --> 00:32:13.185 in the Facebook group and I think one or two of the experiences that she shared even made it into the podcast. 00:32:13.185 --> 00:32:17.865 She said that in one of the journals that she had read to get some content that she shared 00:32:18.089 --> 00:32:21.745 that made it into another episode, she said, I reread the journal entry 00:32:21.745 --> 00:32:23.778 and she said she just saw so many other, 00:32:24.354 --> 00:32:28.108 death by a thousand cuts in the journal entry. So she said that I was welcome to read this. 00:32:29.065 --> 00:32:31.765 So she was just talking, and it's a little bit out of context at first, 00:32:31.765 --> 00:32:35.125 but it said, but mostly it is, and I'm just gonna say my husband, she name by name, 00:32:35.125 --> 00:32:36.507 but my husband who I feel lonely with. 00:32:37.025 --> 00:32:39.955 He repeats over and over again how he wants to focus on just the positive. 00:32:40.185 --> 00:32:41.765 She said, I was feeling terrible. 00:32:41.985 --> 00:32:47.454 And I say over and over again that he doesn't make room for my difficult emotions, but then he denies this. 00:32:47.945 --> 00:32:51.244 So then I finally say, okay, I'll just flip the switch and I'll just do the positive thing. 00:32:51.874 --> 00:32:56.345 And she said, this is what I will do. And this is what I am trying to do. 00:32:56.345 --> 00:33:01.318 Now he will check in on me, but like his family and mine, What he wants is for me to say everything's okay. 00:33:02.344 --> 00:33:07.529 Just everything's fine. And this is one of those situations where, talk about love or control. 00:33:08.006 --> 00:33:12.594 So, here's somebody that I know in her situation, she was dealing with, I think it was a significant 00:33:12.594 --> 00:33:17.714 loss in the family, the death of some loved ones. And then if she's saying, I'm struggling, 00:33:17.855 --> 00:33:21.954 that makes him uncomfortable. So, he just says, hey, we just, we all struggle. We all go through 00:33:21.954 --> 00:33:26.514 things. So, we just need to focus on the positive. So, does that make sense? Do you feel okay? 00:33:27.352 --> 00:33:31.714 And all she can do then is just say, yeah, no, that makes sense. I feel okay. Because that gets 00:33:31.714 --> 00:33:34.590 gets rid of his discomfort, his anxiety. 00:33:35.134 --> 00:33:38.560 And so now she's being trained to say, no, everything's okay, it's all right. 00:33:39.274 --> 00:33:41.000 But she said, I still feel terrible. 00:33:41.714 --> 00:33:44.334 And she said, because I really don't think my husband understands what it means 00:33:44.334 --> 00:33:45.879 to be a team or to care about us. 00:33:46.634 --> 00:33:50.551 I think that he sees self-care as a zero-sum game. There's a winner and a loser. 00:33:51.074 --> 00:33:54.134 He asked me if I wanted to bring my bike on a trip that we were gonna go to. 00:33:54.134 --> 00:33:55.538 And I said, I don't know, probably not. 00:33:56.254 --> 00:33:58.854 But then I see that he went ahead and brought his bike anyway. 00:33:58.854 --> 00:34:04.153 She said, there's no, hey, let's both go ride bikes along the coast because that's not actually what I think he wants. I think, 00:34:04.874 --> 00:34:08.474 he wants to take a long bike ride alone. She said I may bring things up from the 00:34:08.474 --> 00:34:11.004 past that have been hurtful, but then he doesn't want to talk about them. And then I, 00:34:11.954 --> 00:34:15.514 say, I don't think it's gonna go well if I really do tell you what's on my mind 00:34:15.514 --> 00:34:19.514 when he says, well, what were you, what do you want to talk about? And then he said, 00:34:19.514 --> 00:34:20.618 and oh, that must be really hard. 00:34:20.954 --> 00:34:22.050 Must be a really terrible feeling. 00:34:23.130 --> 00:34:26.900 She said, we just made a run to Costco and we bought almost $1,500 in groceries. 00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:30.660 And she said, I just decided to wait in the car because I don't like the solution for groceries. 00:34:31.367 --> 00:34:34.869 But we're buying way too much food. We waste food. I'm going to end up hearing about that, too. 00:34:35.292 --> 00:34:37.480 She said, I really think we should come up with a different solution. 00:34:37.894 --> 00:34:42.485 And then I try to say so. And he says something like, oh, OK, but nothing happens. 00:34:42.593 --> 00:34:45.303 And she said, I let it drop because I guess it's not a big deal. 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:49.460 And she said, I wish we could talk about things that don't seem like they are big deals. 00:34:50.398 --> 00:34:53.540 She said, I said, one time I told you I thought your mom should serve dinner on 00:34:53.540 --> 00:34:56.610 paper plates and you didn't talk to me for five days. Do you remember that? But, 00:34:57.380 --> 00:35:01.220 he doesn't. And then he doesn't ask any more questions. He just says, no, I don't. 00:35:01.220 --> 00:35:04.892 Can we just forget about that? And she said, this is how we used to cope. And 00:35:05.234 --> 00:35:09.740 then I would just forget it too. And he talks about wanting to focus on the 00:35:09.740 --> 00:35:15.060 positive. She said, we talk about things like sports or golf or tennis or bowling 00:35:15.060 --> 00:35:18.060 or anything. And we talk about the landscape. And she said, I just find that 00:35:18.060 --> 00:35:19.700 that I have to engage on his terms. 00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:23.440 And so then I can't even force myself to get excited about those things, 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:24.652 and I just start to feel so sad. 00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:31.160 He said, recently, I was ready to just resign. And he comes from this family that has a lifetime habit 00:35:31.160 --> 00:35:33.375 of just handling things this way. 00:35:34.120 --> 00:35:40.037 And I hear in his words really clearly for the first time that he does not understand that connecting in pain 00:35:40.200 --> 00:35:45.690 or anger or any of the negative emotions can even be a foundation of creating intimacy. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.000 He doesn't understand that these deeply painful feelings are the well that we drink from, 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:51.244 that at least I drink from. 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:57.105 Pointing to our souls or our humanity, he only understands it's unpleasant to experience, 00:35:57.440 --> 00:35:58.734 so why would he want to experience it? 00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:04.334 And she said, it is, it is unpleasant, which is why I want to experience with him even more. 00:36:05.120 --> 00:36:08.439 Or does he understand that or that he's afraid of intimacy? 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:14.320 That he says the words that he can see that could happen, but in real time when the moment comes, 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.413 and he shies away from any feelings of discomfort, over and over and over again. 00:36:20.430 --> 00:36:40.208 So, I look at that journal entry and I think it's beautifully written, it's sad, it's profound because it just shows that over time, even somebody who doesn't appear to be a narcissist but may appear that's the emotional immaturity of never being taught to sit with their own discomfort or pain or learn how to acknowledge their own feelings. 00:36:40.208 --> 00:36:46.208 And I think that's what can be so difficult about this situation, because that he may not be a bad person at all. 00:36:47.104 --> 00:36:55.208 But then if he was never modeled the way to sit with discomfort and share with another person and be open and vulnerable, then he doesn't know what he doesn't know. 00:36:55.208 --> 00:37:01.208 And unfortunately, it sounds like he might be unwilling to even take a look at that from a self-confrontation standpoint. 00:37:01.208 --> 00:37:08.048 Here's another example, and then let's get to the food. food. One person said that when their oldest daughter was around six or seven, 00:37:08.048 --> 00:37:12.008 they had basically a piggy bank for her. And she said, I was starting to teach her 00:37:12.008 --> 00:37:15.348 how to save money. But then one time I walked in and my husband was removing 00:37:15.348 --> 00:37:18.448 coins from the piggy bank. When I said, hey, what are you doing? He said, well, I 00:37:18.448 --> 00:37:22.088 need money for coffee. And I said, well, that's, that's our daughter's savings. And 00:37:22.088 --> 00:37:26.248 he said, well, the money came from me anyway, and I'm gonna replace it. So she 00:37:26.248 --> 00:37:28.768 said, after that, I got a sheet of paper and I would write down the date that she 00:37:28.768 --> 00:37:33.408 contribute money and keep it running total. And he never replaced it. Within a 00:37:33.408 --> 00:37:37.714 a year or so, then I just got rid of the piggy bank and I found a hiding spot among her things. 00:37:38.468 --> 00:37:42.603 Death by a thousand cuts. There are so many examples that just do seem 00:37:42.945 --> 00:37:44.952 like they aren't that big of a deal 00:37:45.108 --> 00:37:46.032 until you get enough of them. 00:37:46.628 --> 00:37:51.628 And I hope that if this resonated with you at all, that you would feel free to reach out 00:37:51.628 --> 00:37:55.089 and share some of these examples with me and we'll put them on a future episode. 00:37:55.268 --> 00:37:59.828 Now, we'll call this almost bonus content because Christine Hammond has a wonderful podcast 00:37:59.828 --> 00:38:01.390 called Understanding Today's Narcissist. 00:38:01.788 --> 00:38:06.468 I had her on my virtual couch podcast long ago and she has been working in this space 00:38:06.621 --> 00:38:09.753 for far longer than I have and she has just some really great information. 00:38:10.468 --> 00:38:15.173 So just for fun, I was looking up on online just what is it about narcissists and their food 00:38:15.348 --> 00:38:21.303 and Christine had a great article that is on Psych Central and it's just called Obsessed, Narcissist and Their Food. 00:38:22.311 --> 00:38:26.668 So, all credit to Christine here and then I might have a couple of thoughts as I read this. 00:38:27.154 --> 00:38:30.721 She said, it's called Obsessed, Narcissists and Their Food. It wasn't until Tabitha had dinner 00:38:30.721 --> 00:38:34.001 at a friend's house as a teenager that she realized there was something odd about how 00:38:34.001 --> 00:38:38.961 her family handled food. At her friend's, there was food with a variety of healthy and even some 00:38:38.961 --> 00:38:43.800 unhealthy snacks. Her mom didn't have a lock on the special food so no one could have access. 00:38:44.142 --> 00:38:47.680 Their mealtime was engaging and fun with everybody participating in a conversation. 00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:51.441 There were no snide remarks about eating too much or being forced to eat seconds. It was 00:38:51.441 --> 00:38:52.910 It was just an enjoyable experience. 00:38:53.561 --> 00:38:57.960 But it wasn't until years later when Tabitha realized that her mother was narcissistic. 00:38:58.701 --> 00:39:03.110 Still, she didn't make the connection between narcissism and food until she had her own family meals. 00:39:03.261 --> 00:39:07.476 And then it struck her, her mother's narcissism translated into an unhealthy obsession with food. 00:39:08.141 --> 00:39:12.581 This explains so much about Tabitha's own anxious journey with food and the unhealthy food rules 00:39:12.581 --> 00:39:17.027 that she grew up with and that they were an extension of her mother's controlling and manipulative behavior. And here's how. 00:39:17.581 --> 00:39:21.222 And Christine lays out 14 different concepts around food, food management. 00:39:21.701 --> 00:39:25.912 Tabitha's mom disliked fish, so she refused to serve it even though everybody else in the family loved it. 00:39:26.381 --> 00:39:29.941 Her mom's food likes and dislikes dominated the menu. If she didn't like something, 00:39:29.941 --> 00:39:32.385 then it wasn't to be served at all. All or nothing, black or white. 00:39:32.941 --> 00:39:36.760 Food supremacy. She said perhaps the oddest realization was that Tabitha's mom expected 00:39:37.181 --> 00:39:39.981 that she would always be served the best and or the largest portion of food. 00:39:39.981 --> 00:39:42.819 Whether she cooked the food or not, her mom demanded the first pick. 00:39:43.421 --> 00:39:47.644 Food is power. One morning, Tabitha's dad surprised the family by making a large pancake breakfast. 00:39:48.061 --> 00:39:51.830 Tabitha's mom took one look at the meal with disgust on her face and started making herself eggs. 00:39:52.341 --> 00:39:54.738 When confronted, she said she didn't like being told what to eat. 00:39:55.548 --> 00:39:59.023 Food is entitlement. Even when Tabitha's family was a guest at someone else's house, 00:39:59.461 --> 00:40:01.589 her mom would find something wrong with the food being served. 00:40:01.701 --> 00:40:03.650 She doesn't like cheese, and therefore she can't eat the meal. 00:40:04.161 --> 00:40:07.071 Or she would then expect an additional meal to be specially prepared for her, 00:40:07.341 --> 00:40:10.861 basically allowing her to still be the special flower. 00:40:11.061 --> 00:40:15.101 Food is control. During family members, Tabitha's mom would scold her for eating too much 00:40:15.101 --> 00:40:17.000 and make fun of her for asking for seconds. 00:40:17.581 --> 00:40:20.241 But when company came over, Her mom would demand that everybody have seconds 00:40:20.241 --> 00:40:24.247 or else she won't believe that they liked her food. So a complete lack of consistency there. 00:40:25.001 --> 00:40:29.281 Food and appearance. She said to make matters worse, Tabitha's mom would look at what she was eating 00:40:29.281 --> 00:40:31.323 and make a comment like, you're not gonna eat that, are you? 00:40:31.521 --> 00:40:33.186 Or you know how easily you gain weight. 00:40:33.761 --> 00:40:36.211 She did this even when Tabitha was struggling with anorexia. 00:40:36.441 --> 00:40:40.241 And that's one of the most common things that we hear about the narcissist with food 00:40:40.241 --> 00:40:42.648 where it becomes more about control and shame. 00:40:43.521 --> 00:40:46.627 Food, arrogance. Growing up, Tabitha's dad did a lot of family cooking. 00:40:46.721 --> 00:40:49.930 And on one several, one occasion. 00:40:50.903 --> 00:40:54.673 On several occasions, after he prepared the meal and it was ready to be served, her mom would take 00:40:54.873 --> 00:40:59.233 a phone call and hold up when the family ate. One night, they sat at the table for over an hour, 00:40:59.233 --> 00:41:03.553 staring at the food, waiting for her. Food is a stage. Tabitha could not remember a family 00:41:03.553 --> 00:41:06.675 mealtime that was not dominated by her mom talking about herself and her work. There 00:41:06.864 --> 00:41:10.433 were no questions about Tabitha's stay, and if she chimed in, her mother would give her 00:41:10.433 --> 00:41:14.673 the death stare and then ignore her. Food's snobbery. There were only a handful of restaurants 00:41:14.673 --> 00:41:18.513 that Tabitha's mom would agree to go to. Looking back, Tabitha realized that these establishments 00:41:18.513 --> 00:41:22.114 treated her like she was a queen, giving her the best place to sit in the restaurant, and 00:41:22.313 --> 00:41:25.589 this explained her tolerance for the average food quality that came at a high price. 00:41:26.493 --> 00:41:30.593 Food expectations. Tabitha's mom would openly complain if the food was not to her liking, whether at home 00:41:30.593 --> 00:41:34.233 or at a friend's house or in public, and worse yet, she would then make fun of what 00:41:34.233 --> 00:41:37.409 she called food ignorance for their lack of adequate preparation. 00:41:37.850 --> 00:41:39.920 Ironically, her mom was not a good cook. 00:41:40.631 --> 00:41:42.593 Just got a few more here. Food is attention. 00:41:42.593 --> 00:41:46.473 When her mom did cook, she demanded excessive amounts of appreciation during the meal and 00:41:46.473 --> 00:41:49.733 afterward. enough gratitude, then she would passive-aggressively say, 00:41:50.147 --> 00:41:51.074 so you didn't like my cooking? 00:41:51.830 --> 00:41:55.089 Food superiority. For a couple of years, Tabitha's mom became a vegetarian, 00:41:55.467 --> 00:41:59.527 and during that time, no meat was allowed in the house, and everybody was expected to eat the way that she did. 00:42:00.067 --> 00:42:03.193 When they ordered meat from a restaurant, she would talk openly about how they were supporting 00:42:03.193 --> 00:42:07.359 the killing of animals, and that all lasted until she was tired of being a vegetarian. 00:42:07.575 --> 00:42:12.058 Food is punishment. When Tabitha was little, her mom used to punish her by saying that she was not allowed to eat dinner. 00:42:13.282 --> 00:42:16.037 She was still angry in the morning. Her mom would then make her go to school without breakfast, 00:42:16.172 --> 00:42:20.492 and there were many days where Tabitha would go with almost no food. And then food is a 00:42:20.492 --> 00:42:24.455 possession. After a night out with friends, Tabitha brought home some of her leftover dinners, 00:42:24.958 --> 00:42:28.252 and it was from an expensive restaurant that she spent weeks saving up her money so she could go 00:42:28.252 --> 00:42:32.092 to. The next morning, she discovered that her mom ate her food. When confronted, her mom's 00:42:32.092 --> 00:42:36.972 attitude was, well, what's yours is mine. However, what was her mom's was only her mom's. 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:41.932 So it becomes hard not to see how Tabitha came to view food as a weapon of control 00:42:41.932 --> 00:42:46.252 from her mom, and she used food to manipulate others, demand attention, dominate in her family, 00:42:46.252 --> 00:42:49.355 justify her selfishness, and so now, as a mom herself, 00:42:49.732 --> 00:42:53.586 Tabitha is rewriting that narrative or changing that family dynamic. 00:42:53.732 --> 00:42:58.472 But the reason I wanted to just go through those quickly is just to show that there are so many reasons 00:42:58.472 --> 00:43:02.201 why the narcissist can have these issues around food. 00:43:02.312 --> 00:43:08.772 Because food, when somebody is not all up in their emotions or feelings or have not been, it hasn't been modeled to them 00:43:08.772 --> 00:43:13.092 how to express themselves emotionally, then something like food or something like money 00:43:13.092 --> 00:43:14.156 just becomes the ultimate, 00:43:14.642 --> 00:43:17.559 it becomes the muse of power and of control. 00:43:17.772 --> 00:43:23.023 And so then it's almost as if here is the weapon that now they can take and use against someone 00:43:23.092 --> 00:43:27.641 to show their dominance, their superiority. It just becomes a weapon of control. 00:43:27.812 --> 00:43:30.567 So whether again, that's something like food or it could be money, 00:43:30.732 --> 00:43:34.051 and then they can get right into that world of the coercive control. 00:43:34.232 --> 00:43:37.532 I appreciate you sticking with me today. If you have thoughts about this episode, 00:43:37.532 --> 00:43:41.604 questions, comments, if you have examples of death by a thousand cuts that have happened for you, 00:43:41.772 --> 00:43:47.950 please send them in to contact at tonyoverbay.com and or fill out the form on the website, 00:43:48.052 --> 00:43:51.398 but I would love to include these in a future episode, 00:43:52.052 --> 00:43:56.574 and I appreciate the support and I will see you next time on Waking Up To Narcissism. 00:43:56.720 --> 00:44:09.730 Music.